X Close

Introducing UnHerd Britain 2023 What does your constituency think about today's political issues?

Bregrets, I've had a few. Credit: Tolga Akmen / AFP / Getty

Bregrets, I've had a few. Credit: Tolga Akmen / AFP / Getty


January 30, 2023   4 mins

The political geography of the UK is on the move again. Barely three years since the realignment of the 2019 General Election, which upended decades-old ideas of traditional Conservative and Labour areas, a new poll by UnHerd and Focaldata reveals a country that is dividing along new and surprising faultlines. 

In 2019, our “UnHerd Britain” survey used a statistical technique called MRP to map six big cultural questions onto all 632 constituencies in Britain; this year, UnHerd has again partnered with Focaldata to conduct a survey of 10,000 people across the country. Rather than asking for people’s voting intention, we have investigated the underlying cultural controversies, new and old, that form today’s divisions and alliances and mapped each one down to constituency level.  

We put 10 statements in front of voters, covering Brexit, gender ideology, political disillusionment, conspiracy, Net Zero, immigration, the monarchy, the cost-of-living crisis, housing and lockdowns. In each case, respondents chose whether they agreed or disagreed, and how strongly. Focaldata then analysed what the most predictive factors of each question were, including age, gender, working status, vote in the 2019 election and the EU referendum, and calculated estimates for each constituency. This technique, “multilevel regression and post-stratification”, or MRP, has been used with incredible accuracy to predict general elections.

You can look up any constituency, and see where it stands on the big talking points of the day. We will be releasing new results every week. 

We begin with Brexit. Three years after we officially left the European Union, respondents were asked whether they agreed or disagreed with the statement, “Britain was wrong to leave the EU”. 

The headline result suggests the country has dramatically changed its view since 2019. Focaldata estimates that in every constituency in the country except three, more people agree with the statement than disagree — i.e. tend to think that Brexit was a mistake. The only three outliers are all located along the Wash in Lincolnshire: Louth and Horncastle, Boston and Skegness and South Holland and the Deepings. Of these, only Boston has more people disagreeing than agreeing: it is the only place in the country which doesn’t feel regretful about Brexit.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, in affluent Remainer heartlands such as Bristol West and Edinburgh South, as well as mixed urban areas such as Streatham and Islington North in London, support for Brexit has further dwindled. In Bristol West, for example, where 79% voted to Remain in 2016, only 13% now disagree with the statement that Brexit was a mistake.

The results also reveal a second finding, which is more subtle but the implications of which are profound for how we understand the country. When you compare the UnHerd Britain 2023 results to the 2016 results, it is clear that enthusiasm for Brexit has faded far more dramatically among Left-leaning areas and areas with higher Labour support than in the Tory heartlands. After six years of political argument and Conservative government, the Brexit question no longer cuts across party lines to the same degree: voting for a pro-Brexit party in 2019 is now a better predictor of whether you support Brexit today than whether you supported Brexit in 2016.

James Kanagasooriam, Chief Research Officer at Focaldata, commented: “The dovetailing of the Brexit divide and the country’s left-right axis has been ongoing for some time, but only with the receding waters of a depressed conservative vote has this pattern become so visible. The leave vote is fading and becoming less distinct from the conservative vote.”

By comparing the percentage of those who still support Brexit with the percentage who voted for Brexit in 2016, it is possible to identify the constituencies which have had the most significant change of heart over the past six years. Of the top 20, all but two are Labour seats. Barking in East London for example voted to Leave in 2016 by 60% to 40%; but now 54% of voters in that constituency think Brexit was a mistake. West Ham, Birmingham Ladywood, Dagenham and Rainham, Middlesborough, Walsall — all of these fit a similar profile: poorer areas with a very high proportion of ethnic minority voters. Many of them supported Brexit at the time, and they are now the most disillusioned of all with the project.

Saying Britain was wrong to leave the EU is a different question from whether Britain should rejoin — when asked, voters do not tend to want to re-open the argument. But the overall picture that emerges is that, after the Brexit shock of 2016 and the extraordinary realignment of 2019, the country is gradually reverting to a more traditional Left versus centre-Right divide. The power of the Brexit question to make people rethink their fundamental political perspective is receding into history.


Freddie Sayers is the Editor-in-Chief & CEO of UnHerd. He was previously Editor-in-Chief of YouGov, and founder of PoliticsHome.

freddiesayers

Join the discussion


Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber


To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.

Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.

Subscribe
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

115 Comments
Most Voted
Newest Oldest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Of course, it doesn’t really matter what electors think about anything. Government policy is not based on elector’s opinions, or on their votes, as the people who determine government policy are not elected.

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

well said

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I would have agreed with you until recently, but Brexit does rather show that the Establishment doesn’t always get its own way. That Establishment clearly thinks the battle isn’t over yet though, so you may turn out to be right in the end.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I’m not sure that the Establishment isn’t getting its own way. It has the remit of ‘Enacting’ Brexit but given increasing numbers of left leaning, European leaning civil servants who lack the relevant skills, knowledge and political will to move it forward, it’s no wonder it’s a slow motion disaster.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Diane Tasker

Completely agree. In the absence of change, meaning divergence from EU legislation, Brexit hasn’t happened. All the civil service needs to do to stymie Brexit is…nothing.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

Exactly!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

But the stark choice of dumping EU legislation (on goods) means no exports of those good into the EU. British standards may be good enough for the rest of the world but not the EU. Having to comply with other country’s standards is the norm. Paradoxically, many EU laws and standards were instigated by the UK fgs! Presumably because the UK favoured such laws and standards!

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Even when the UK was in the EU there were differing standards.
Tried using a French plug in the UK recently?
The UK exported 267 billion pounds worth of goods and services to the EU last year. And even then the deficit on trade in good was 67 billion.
Yes that’s lower than pre-Brexit, but then the UK isn’t the same country. And that has nothing to do with Brexit, and everything to do with incompetence.
The opportunities of Brexit have been scorned by elites who never wanted Brexit in the first place. And that includes Boris Johnson.

Last edited 1 year ago by M VC14
M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Even when the UK was in the EU there were differing standards.
Tried using a French plug in the UK recently?
The UK exported 267 billion pounds worth of goods and services to the EU last year. And even then the deficit on trade in good was 67 billion.
Yes that’s lower than pre-Brexit, but then the UK isn’t the same country. And that has nothing to do with Brexit, and everything to do with incompetence.
The opportunities of Brexit have been scorned by elites who never wanted Brexit in the first place. And that includes Boris Johnson.

Last edited 1 year ago by M VC14
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

The fact that Brexiteer governments haven’t changed much is partly because they are huge splits as to what things to change, notably between the free market and protectionist / levelling up versions of Brexit, plus obviously the huge distraction of Covid.

It is also very early days, we only formally left the EU years ago after being in it for 40! The fact is that the public is naively impatient and unrealistic about what can be achieved quickly, and our politicians are pretty dishonest about the time and patience needed to make long term change. They routinely over-promise and under-deliver (cross Channel boats?). This is not primarily the fault of the Civil Service, critical of it though I would often be.

The Right must get out of this obsession with cabals of malevolent actors acting behind the scenes. Apart from anything, whining is not a good political look. As voters are now determining, there are only so many times you can keep exploiting public concern about issues without doing anything to solve them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Polling is all about the question. If you’ve been inundated with propaganda blaming Brexit for 6 years you’re likely to agree with the question.
Ask whether people want most of their law to be made in Brussels and see if you get the same response.

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Polling is all about the question. If you’ve been inundated with propaganda blaming Brexit for 6 years you’re likely to agree with the question.
Ask whether people want most of their law to be made in Brussels and see if you get the same response.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

Exactly!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

But the stark choice of dumping EU legislation (on goods) means no exports of those good into the EU. British standards may be good enough for the rest of the world but not the EU. Having to comply with other country’s standards is the norm. Paradoxically, many EU laws and standards were instigated by the UK fgs! Presumably because the UK favoured such laws and standards!

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

The fact that Brexiteer governments haven’t changed much is partly because they are huge splits as to what things to change, notably between the free market and protectionist / levelling up versions of Brexit, plus obviously the huge distraction of Covid.

It is also very early days, we only formally left the EU years ago after being in it for 40! The fact is that the public is naively impatient and unrealistic about what can be achieved quickly, and our politicians are pretty dishonest about the time and patience needed to make long term change. They routinely over-promise and under-deliver (cross Channel boats?). This is not primarily the fault of the Civil Service, critical of it though I would often be.

The Right must get out of this obsession with cabals of malevolent actors acting behind the scenes. Apart from anything, whining is not a good political look. As voters are now determining, there are only so many times you can keep exploiting public concern about issues without doing anything to solve them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Daniel Owens
Daniel Owens
1 year ago
Reply to  Diane Tasker

Yep. If reality has disproven your Brexit delusions you can always fall back on the classic ‘stab in the back’ myth like the Germans after WWI, eh?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Owens

The method has been explained, granted without confidence limits. Are you doubting UnHerd’s integrity or Focaldata’s expertise, or both? Do you seriously believe either would disingenuously skew the figures? Why would they do so? Both are highly respected.

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Both are highly respected”
We live in an entirely polarised world and everything is grist to the mill.
What are the chances that UnHerd journalists were Remainers? What are the chances that the pollster favoured EU membership when forming the questions?
It’s all about the question and how it’s posed (not just the text of the question). There’s a wonderful Yes Minister sequence where Sir Humphrey demonstrates how you can get whatever answer you want by sequencing questions in the right way.
And what percentage of Brexit voters would be willing to answer pollster questions after 6 years of negative propaganda in mainstream media.
You need much more data about the poll to determine it’s accuracy. Polling in recent years has been a disaster in most countries.

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Both are highly respected”
We live in an entirely polarised world and everything is grist to the mill.
What are the chances that UnHerd journalists were Remainers? What are the chances that the pollster favoured EU membership when forming the questions?
It’s all about the question and how it’s posed (not just the text of the question). There’s a wonderful Yes Minister sequence where Sir Humphrey demonstrates how you can get whatever answer you want by sequencing questions in the right way.
And what percentage of Brexit voters would be willing to answer pollster questions after 6 years of negative propaganda in mainstream media.
You need much more data about the poll to determine it’s accuracy. Polling in recent years has been a disaster in most countries.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Owens

Why do you assume I was pro-Brexit? You have shown yourself a classic ‘bad loser’

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Owens

The method has been explained, granted without confidence limits. Are you doubting UnHerd’s integrity or Focaldata’s expertise, or both? Do you seriously believe either would disingenuously skew the figures? Why would they do so? Both are highly respected.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Owens

Why do you assume I was pro-Brexit? You have shown yourself a classic ‘bad loser’

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Diane Tasker

Completely agree. In the absence of change, meaning divergence from EU legislation, Brexit hasn’t happened. All the civil service needs to do to stymie Brexit is…nothing.

Daniel Owens
Daniel Owens
1 year ago
Reply to  Diane Tasker

Yep. If reality has disproven your Brexit delusions you can always fall back on the classic ‘stab in the back’ myth like the Germans after WWI, eh?

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I support Brexit, but of course, the explanation just couldn’t be, could it, that the balance of opinion among the electorate has shifted? it has done on numerous occasions at successive general elections.

Brexit has had a significant amount of poor luck, but many Brexiteers were cavalierly overconfident, to put it mildly, about how easy it would be to extract the UK from a 40 year old trading and of course political relationship.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I’m not sure that the Establishment isn’t getting its own way. It has the remit of ‘Enacting’ Brexit but given increasing numbers of left leaning, European leaning civil servants who lack the relevant skills, knowledge and political will to move it forward, it’s no wonder it’s a slow motion disaster.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I support Brexit, but of course, the explanation just couldn’t be, could it, that the balance of opinion among the electorate has shifted? it has done on numerous occasions at successive general elections.

Brexit has had a significant amount of poor luck, but many Brexiteers were cavalierly overconfident, to put it mildly, about how easy it would be to extract the UK from a 40 year old trading and of course political relationship.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

We are now unfortunately in a world where it seems to be enough simply to make some huge assertion, without any supporting argument of any kind, presumably in the hope of getting loads of people agreeing with you or upcoming your comment or whatever

Such a definitive statement as you made is simply, and obviously not true. The UK HAS left the EU, despite ridiculous attempts to endlessly redefine Brexit – as what exactly – towing the UK into the Pacific and severing all ties with the EU?

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

well said

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I would have agreed with you until recently, but Brexit does rather show that the Establishment doesn’t always get its own way. That Establishment clearly thinks the battle isn’t over yet though, so you may turn out to be right in the end.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

We are now unfortunately in a world where it seems to be enough simply to make some huge assertion, without any supporting argument of any kind, presumably in the hope of getting loads of people agreeing with you or upcoming your comment or whatever

Such a definitive statement as you made is simply, and obviously not true. The UK HAS left the EU, despite ridiculous attempts to endlessly redefine Brexit – as what exactly – towing the UK into the Pacific and severing all ties with the EU?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Of course, it doesn’t really matter what electors think about anything. Government policy is not based on elector’s opinions, or on their votes, as the people who determine government policy are not elected.

Andrew Horsman
Andrew Horsman
1 year ago

Please could UnHerd publish a detailed statistical methodology, including the technique used to select the sample of individuals polled and confidence intervals at the national and constituency level. Thank you.

clare davies
clare davies
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Horsman

I second this request. How were the respondents chosen? 10,000 people isn’t many between 600+ constituencies

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  clare davies

My thoughts exactly. And what if the question asked had been “Britain was right to leave the EU”?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

As a statistician I can tell you such a question is inappropriate.. the interpretation of the word “right” has too many variables. The word “mistake” is much clearer.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

As a statistician I can tell you such a question is inappropriate.. the interpretation of the word “right” has too many variables. The word “mistake” is much clearer.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  clare davies

My thoughts exactly. And what if the question asked had been “Britain was right to leave the EU”?

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Horsman

Plus what methodology was used to assess the questions for neutrality?
“Britain was wrong to leave the EU” is a statement, not a question, and may have influenced the replies. Had the survey been split into two respondent groups with the other group being told “Britain was right to leave the EU” then you could compare and evaluate the responses.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

A better question might have been “Has the government made the most of the opportunities presented by Brexit?”.
I’d hazard a guess the response might be close to 100% negative.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Rocky Martiano

That us a valid question but not necessarily a better question. It is an entirely different question. Perhaps you can list a few of those opportunities for those of us unaware of any at all.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Rocky Martiano

That us a valid question but not necessarily a better question. It is an entirely different question. Perhaps you can list a few of those opportunities for those of us unaware of any at all.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

I made precisely this point before then reading your comment.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

A better question might have been “Has the government made the most of the opportunities presented by Brexit?”.
I’d hazard a guess the response might be close to 100% negative.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

I made precisely this point before then reading your comment.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Horsman

Which might be a reasonable request were you:

(a) more qualified to assess the statistical validity of polling companies than they are – are you?!

(b) to make the same request in respect of results you approve of. Which of course, I am pretty damn sure, you would not!

clare davies
clare davies
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Horsman

I second this request. How were the respondents chosen? 10,000 people isn’t many between 600+ constituencies

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Horsman

Plus what methodology was used to assess the questions for neutrality?
“Britain was wrong to leave the EU” is a statement, not a question, and may have influenced the replies. Had the survey been split into two respondent groups with the other group being told “Britain was right to leave the EU” then you could compare and evaluate the responses.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Horsman

Which might be a reasonable request were you:

(a) more qualified to assess the statistical validity of polling companies than they are – are you?!

(b) to make the same request in respect of results you approve of. Which of course, I am pretty damn sure, you would not!

Andrew Horsman
Andrew Horsman
1 year ago

Please could UnHerd publish a detailed statistical methodology, including the technique used to select the sample of individuals polled and confidence intervals at the national and constituency level. Thank you.

odd taff
odd taff
1 year ago

It’s a bit like asking a motorist whose waiting for the AA if they regret their choice of vehicle. The years since the referendum have been chaotic and the immediate future looks grim but attributing cause and affect is premature. We will only be able to accurately judge the effects of Brexit a decade or more down the road. I’ve friends on both sides of the divide and none of them have moved an inch on the fundamental question.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

I’m happy to have another referendum – in about 40 years. The same length of time that we were in the EU. Seems fair.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Interesting analogy, which captures rather nicely the uncertainty around the “what if” that the alternative represents. The EU has not exactly advertised itself as a place that’s attractive to democratic free nations since 2016, has it?

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

If the U.K. had remained in the EU I’m fairly confident that Ukraine would have received no help from the west, as the Germany/France axis would have ensured nothing was done, except the expression of sympathy. The U.K. acted, and adding critical weight to the USA, the EU had no choice but to act.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Excellent point.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

..it’s a great pity the West did act on Ukraine in the first place! It’s a pity the CIA spent $5bn orchestrating the coup in 2014. It’s a pity the West didn’t condemn the genocidal attack on Russian speaking Donbas and sanction Ukraine for doing so. It’s a pity the West didn’t condemn the warmongering of NATO’s encroachment ever closer to Russia. If the West hadn’t intervened with its military support the war would be over long ago with tens of thousands of lives saved and billions in damage avoided, and Europe (especially the UK) saved from financial ruin, and millions fewer war refugees as well!

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Excellent point.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

..it’s a great pity the West did act on Ukraine in the first place! It’s a pity the CIA spent $5bn orchestrating the coup in 2014. It’s a pity the West didn’t condemn the genocidal attack on Russian speaking Donbas and sanction Ukraine for doing so. It’s a pity the West didn’t condemn the warmongering of NATO’s encroachment ever closer to Russia. If the West hadn’t intervened with its military support the war would be over long ago with tens of thousands of lives saved and billions in damage avoided, and Europe (especially the UK) saved from financial ruin, and millions fewer war refugees as well!

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

As far as new members might be concerned, the EU has tried to be resolute on Ukraine, it tried to organise a unified vaccine roll-out and is working on many fronts in terms of trade and development. Ukraine seems to think joining-up worthwhile.
I think you mean the way the EU negotiated with the UK, but they were bound to negotiate hard with a negotiating partner that thinks it would be better if they didn’t exist.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

No, I certainly do not mean the way the EU negotiated with the UK, which I wholly admit the EU almost completely won. I refer to the way Greece and the other periphery nations have been treated continuously since 2011, the way Poland and Hungary keep getting into trouble for merely trying to make Brussels recognise its own commitment to subsidiarity, the manner in which Brussels looks the other way when Germany acts in open contempt of Single Market rules and how Germany is perfectly happy to accept a low exchange rate for its export-dependent economy but refuses to recognise that this should come with an obligation for fiscal transfers and debt-mutualisation. The list goes on considerably longer of course, but I’ll leave it there.

As regards Ukraine, it wants to be in NATO, quite understandably. The fact that NATO has been offered as a package with EU membership to serve the expansionary ambitions of the EU is not something that anyone ought to be proud of here. It did require the consent of a raft of idiotc US politcians as well as the raft of idiotic EU politicians to get us to this point admittedly, so it’s not fair to make this one entirely about Brussels. There’s a hell of a lot of blame to go round though, of course – plenty for everyone involved.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Excellent points excellently made.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Does Ireland count as a peripheral EU state? If so why is its growth rate 3 times the EU average (probably 30 times UK growth?) with a large trading surplus. You’re a tad selective in your states. Also Poland and Hungry are in flagrant breach of democratic norms such as the independence of the judiciary and breach of human rights. Please be fairer in your assessments.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Excellent points excellently made.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Does Ireland count as a peripheral EU state? If so why is its growth rate 3 times the EU average (probably 30 times UK growth?) with a large trading surplus. You’re a tad selective in your states. Also Poland and Hungry are in flagrant breach of democratic norms such as the independence of the judiciary and breach of human rights. Please be fairer in your assessments.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

Where on earth do you get the idea that the UK thinks that the EU shouldn’t exist. We simply chose to leave and make our own decisions. That is no judgement on what other countries can or should do and no judgement is implied. You’re simply making this up.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The EU know that the ideological heart of brexit is a group of British free market politicians who believe that the EU should be replaced by a free trade agreement. That is what Farage says, Redwood, and the writers of ‘The Plan’ book, and many others. They have always loathed the EU project.
This is completely the reverse of what the EU is for, which is political stability, using trade, rather than trade solely for national economics sake.
A Euro-FTA alliance would not deliver the locked-in stability the EU desires.
I’m not making this up, I’ve read and listened to a lot on this subject.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

But you are making it up. Redwood and Farage were not in the government and had no authority to do anything: they are not “the UK” and do not represent the UK or have any real say or influence on government policy.
You’re making the universal remain “category error” of assuming that all those who voted to leave the EU hate the EU and want to see it dissolved (or you deliberately wish to create this impression). This simply is not true.
I’m glad you implicitly accept that the EU is not – at heart – a free trade organisation. Because, despite its apologists, it is not.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I’m saying that the EU knew that behind the officials they were negotiating with were a long-standing group of tory and UKIP politicians who loathe the EU project, and believe it unneccesary and unworkable. Farage has been ranting for years. The prize for them was the EUs frictionless trade but without buying in to any of the political stuff that the EU hold dear.
I’m not saying and haven’t said anything disparaging about brexit voters.
Any history of the EU will say it is a political project to stabilise and develop Europe, with the EUs single market being a huge step towards that goal.
Clearly the EU has its own tariff walls, although in fairness it does seem to do a fair amount to help developing countries.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The EU was formed primarily to ensure peace in a perpetually war torn Europe. It was clear that commerce was a better bet that political unification.. so yes, trade is secondary but still the prime mover as the UK has discovered to its cost.. but then, to quote your great leader “f€ck business”. The purpose of Brexit was to facilitate vast tax evasion, laundering dirty Russian money on the city and enriching the already obscenely rich 0.1%. The rest is merely collateral damage. Lucky for the 0.1% the 99.9% have been diverted with the most hilarious political sideshow ever seen in any alleged democracy.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I’m saying that the EU knew that behind the officials they were negotiating with were a long-standing group of tory and UKIP politicians who loathe the EU project, and believe it unneccesary and unworkable. Farage has been ranting for years. The prize for them was the EUs frictionless trade but without buying in to any of the political stuff that the EU hold dear.
I’m not saying and haven’t said anything disparaging about brexit voters.
Any history of the EU will say it is a political project to stabilise and develop Europe, with the EUs single market being a huge step towards that goal.
Clearly the EU has its own tariff walls, although in fairness it does seem to do a fair amount to help developing countries.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The EU was formed primarily to ensure peace in a perpetually war torn Europe. It was clear that commerce was a better bet that political unification.. so yes, trade is secondary but still the prime mover as the UK has discovered to its cost.. but then, to quote your great leader “f€ck business”. The purpose of Brexit was to facilitate vast tax evasion, laundering dirty Russian money on the city and enriching the already obscenely rich 0.1%. The rest is merely collateral damage. Lucky for the 0.1% the 99.9% have been diverted with the most hilarious political sideshow ever seen in any alleged democracy.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

“The EU know that the ideological heart of brexit is a group of British free market politicians who believe that the EU should be replaced by a free trade agreement.”

Actually, since the democratic mandate for EU membership was founded in the 1970s upon EEC membership which was in fact something very close to just a free trade agreement, it would be entirely fair to assert that that is all the EU should ever be, and if it is to change then the UK’s democratic cosent to membership must be reviewed.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

But you are making it up. Redwood and Farage were not in the government and had no authority to do anything: they are not “the UK” and do not represent the UK or have any real say or influence on government policy.
You’re making the universal remain “category error” of assuming that all those who voted to leave the EU hate the EU and want to see it dissolved (or you deliberately wish to create this impression). This simply is not true.
I’m glad you implicitly accept that the EU is not – at heart – a free trade organisation. Because, despite its apologists, it is not.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

“The EU know that the ideological heart of brexit is a group of British free market politicians who believe that the EU should be replaced by a free trade agreement.”

Actually, since the democratic mandate for EU membership was founded in the 1970s upon EEC membership which was in fact something very close to just a free trade agreement, it would be entirely fair to assert that that is all the EU should ever be, and if it is to change then the UK’s democratic cosent to membership must be reviewed.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

The EU know that the ideological heart of brexit is a group of British free market politicians who believe that the EU should be replaced by a free trade agreement. That is what Farage says, Redwood, and the writers of ‘The Plan’ book, and many others. They have always loathed the EU project.
This is completely the reverse of what the EU is for, which is political stability, using trade, rather than trade solely for national economics sake.
A Euro-FTA alliance would not deliver the locked-in stability the EU desires.
I’m not making this up, I’ve read and listened to a lot on this subject.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

I’m reading The Long Shot by Kate Bingham, the Vaccine Task Force Chair. She was a Remainer but made very clear that the EU made a hash of its vaccine development and would have insisted on
Britain following its procurement rules had we still been a member. Also, France and Germany approached Britain behind the EU’s back to create a three country alliance. Bingham ultimately declined. The EU was not amused by the Franci-German initiative. The British vaccine development and procurement effort was far more professional and nimble. And Bingham was very critical of Macron and Merkel’s ignorant and nationalistically spiteful disparagement and misrepresentation of the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine, which encouraged vaccine hesitancy, anti vax sentiment and caused, in her estimation, hundreds of thousands of deaths worldwide.

I am a professional linguist and have studied, lived, and worked in Europe for years, but I campaigned hard for Brexit. My only regret is that the Tory party has so little appetite for making the most of it. Their collective ambition seem not to extend beyond forming the government. In office, but not in power.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

My point was that the EU attempted to build a cross-border vaccine effort to help the smaller countries, wich is part of the point of the whole thing. Clearly there was a crisis with Fr/Ge over the vaccines which had to be resolved, and was ‘politicians being politicians’.
We were following EU rules, as interim members, and no-one else in the commentary thinks we would have had to join an EU scheme we disliked, any more than we have had to join other EU things we disliked in the past. What things in the EU was the UK forced to join against our wishes? Bingham isn’t an EU diplomat, or the PM of the day. The British PM would have said ‘we have our own scheme, and we don’t want to join yours’.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

The Tories have struggled to come up with a single positive opportunity (apart from tax evasion for the 0.1% which they keep shtum about) emanating from Brexit. Clearly you know better. Can you list a few of the main ones for us slow folk who cannot see any?

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

My point was that the EU attempted to build a cross-border vaccine effort to help the smaller countries, wich is part of the point of the whole thing. Clearly there was a crisis with Fr/Ge over the vaccines which had to be resolved, and was ‘politicians being politicians’.
We were following EU rules, as interim members, and no-one else in the commentary thinks we would have had to join an EU scheme we disliked, any more than we have had to join other EU things we disliked in the past. What things in the EU was the UK forced to join against our wishes? Bingham isn’t an EU diplomat, or the PM of the day. The British PM would have said ‘we have our own scheme, and we don’t want to join yours’.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

The Tories have struggled to come up with a single positive opportunity (apart from tax evasion for the 0.1% which they keep shtum about) emanating from Brexit. Clearly you know better. Can you list a few of the main ones for us slow folk who cannot see any?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

No, I certainly do not mean the way the EU negotiated with the UK, which I wholly admit the EU almost completely won. I refer to the way Greece and the other periphery nations have been treated continuously since 2011, the way Poland and Hungary keep getting into trouble for merely trying to make Brussels recognise its own commitment to subsidiarity, the manner in which Brussels looks the other way when Germany acts in open contempt of Single Market rules and how Germany is perfectly happy to accept a low exchange rate for its export-dependent economy but refuses to recognise that this should come with an obligation for fiscal transfers and debt-mutualisation. The list goes on considerably longer of course, but I’ll leave it there.

As regards Ukraine, it wants to be in NATO, quite understandably. The fact that NATO has been offered as a package with EU membership to serve the expansionary ambitions of the EU is not something that anyone ought to be proud of here. It did require the consent of a raft of idiotc US politcians as well as the raft of idiotic EU politicians to get us to this point admittedly, so it’s not fair to make this one entirely about Brussels. There’s a hell of a lot of blame to go round though, of course – plenty for everyone involved.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

Where on earth do you get the idea that the UK thinks that the EU shouldn’t exist. We simply chose to leave and make our own decisions. That is no judgement on what other countries can or should do and no judgement is implied. You’re simply making this up.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

I’m reading The Long Shot by Kate Bingham, the Vaccine Task Force Chair. She was a Remainer but made very clear that the EU made a hash of its vaccine development and would have insisted on
Britain following its procurement rules had we still been a member. Also, France and Germany approached Britain behind the EU’s back to create a three country alliance. Bingham ultimately declined. The EU was not amused by the Franci-German initiative. The British vaccine development and procurement effort was far more professional and nimble. And Bingham was very critical of Macron and Merkel’s ignorant and nationalistically spiteful disparagement and misrepresentation of the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine, which encouraged vaccine hesitancy, anti vax sentiment and caused, in her estimation, hundreds of thousands of deaths worldwide.

I am a professional linguist and have studied, lived, and worked in Europe for years, but I campaigned hard for Brexit. My only regret is that the Tory party has so little appetite for making the most of it. Their collective ambition seem not to extend beyond forming the government. In office, but not in power.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

If the U.K. had remained in the EU I’m fairly confident that Ukraine would have received no help from the west, as the Germany/France axis would have ensured nothing was done, except the expression of sympathy. The U.K. acted, and adding critical weight to the USA, the EU had no choice but to act.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

As far as new members might be concerned, the EU has tried to be resolute on Ukraine, it tried to organise a unified vaccine roll-out and is working on many fronts in terms of trade and development. Ukraine seems to think joining-up worthwhile.
I think you mean the way the EU negotiated with the UK, but they were bound to negotiate hard with a negotiating partner that thinks it would be better if they didn’t exist.

Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Great analogy. Thanks.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Considering the falsehoods/undeliverable promises of the campaign people will look at whether brexit was the right choice, and simply saying ‘ask in 10 years’ is not good enough. What’s going to happen then that makes such a difference, and who’s going to do it? The tories don’t look capable of doing much at the moment, and Labour won’t ever provide brexit satisfaction.
Fwiw I think a good number of brexit voters are just glad to be out of it (‘sovereignty’), which is fine, but we shouldnt say there’s any more to it than that if there isn’t.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

There were falsehoods on both sides. The biggest being that remaining in would not automatically result in yet further loss of UK sovereignty, marketed as “sharing/pooling” to mask the increasing irrelevance of the Westminster Parliament. Mind you, the statement that the mere fact of a Leave vote would trigger an immediate and profound recession was a whopper as well. It was disproved by events. And no, our current economic travails, six and a half years later after 3 ruinous lockdowns and the biggest European war in 70 years are not cause and effect.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

Isn’t balance a great thing in a discussion! Makes a change from the usual drum and rabble rousing rhetoric does it? Well said!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

Isn’t balance a great thing in a discussion! Makes a change from the usual drum and rabble rousing rhetoric does it? Well said!

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

There were falsehoods on both sides. The biggest being that remaining in would not automatically result in yet further loss of UK sovereignty, marketed as “sharing/pooling” to mask the increasing irrelevance of the Westminster Parliament. Mind you, the statement that the mere fact of a Leave vote would trigger an immediate and profound recession was a whopper as well. It was disproved by events. And no, our current economic travails, six and a half years later after 3 ruinous lockdowns and the biggest European war in 70 years are not cause and effect.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

I’ve tried that with many an AA man and the words ” Rover” and ” Range” not necessarily in that order, flow from their lips….

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Then clearly they are outliers! or are they…
Do bear in mind guys will stick to their guns publicly rather than lose face but may well have changed their minds privately.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

I’m happy to have another referendum – in about 40 years. The same length of time that we were in the EU. Seems fair.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Interesting analogy, which captures rather nicely the uncertainty around the “what if” that the alternative represents. The EU has not exactly advertised itself as a place that’s attractive to democratic free nations since 2016, has it?

Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Great analogy. Thanks.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Considering the falsehoods/undeliverable promises of the campaign people will look at whether brexit was the right choice, and simply saying ‘ask in 10 years’ is not good enough. What’s going to happen then that makes such a difference, and who’s going to do it? The tories don’t look capable of doing much at the moment, and Labour won’t ever provide brexit satisfaction.
Fwiw I think a good number of brexit voters are just glad to be out of it (‘sovereignty’), which is fine, but we shouldnt say there’s any more to it than that if there isn’t.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

I’ve tried that with many an AA man and the words ” Rover” and ” Range” not necessarily in that order, flow from their lips….

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  odd taff

Then clearly they are outliers! or are they…
Do bear in mind guys will stick to their guns publicly rather than lose face but may well have changed their minds privately.

odd taff
odd taff
1 year ago

It’s a bit like asking a motorist whose waiting for the AA if they regret their choice of vehicle. The years since the referendum have been chaotic and the immediate future looks grim but attributing cause and affect is premature. We will only be able to accurately judge the effects of Brexit a decade or more down the road. I’ve friends on both sides of the divide and none of them have moved an inch on the fundamental question.

Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago

The UK left the European Union in the early days of January 2020 when Sars Cov 2 was emerging in China.
Only this month 1.5 billion people who are crucial to the well-being of the global economy rejoined the rest of us. Only now will the old supply and demand issues reassert themselves and then there is the effect of hostilities in Ukraine. To argue these two issues do not affect people’s mood when trying to recognize what are and are not the effects of Brexit is partial, to say the least.
Realigning England was always a ten-year project as evinced by Capital Economics in their pre Vote report in 2016.
Personally rather like a domestic divorce when I see the behavior of the EU over the Northern Ireland Protocol, we are talking about 2 Billion Pounds of trade from NI to mainland Europe, (context we export 40 Billion directly to Eire) and talk to the those from outside the EU who try to deal with the EUs ‘protection of the free market” I am more convinced than ever England was correct to leave.
There was always going to be pain, to begin with, and that’s before you consider the consequences of the worst policy decisions by the elites since 1914 over a respiratory illness.

Last edited 1 year ago by Michelle Johnston
Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago

Spot on and well put.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Agreed, and most knew the pain was coming since the doom mongers forecast far far worse pain. But as others here have said, Unherd seems to have joined the serried ranks of mainstream media in judging Brexit NOW! Just ridiculous.

Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Ian you are quite right when I talk to SMEs who voted for Brexit and are having a tough time they all acknowledge they knew there was going to a transition period.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago

Transition to what?
Closer alignment to ease their problems?
Not if the ‘trade benefits ard to be exploited’. With many different trade arrangements the current bureaucracy will obviously continue if not be expanded.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

“Closer alignment to ease THEIR problems”? If you export into Xland you have to comply with Xland’s laws and standards. That is the norm the world over. It is so that for example you in the UK don’t end up with chlorinated chicken and hormone + antibiotic ridden beef from Argentina.. oops!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

“Closer alignment to ease THEIR problems”? If you export into Xland you have to comply with Xland’s laws and standards. That is the norm the world over. It is so that for example you in the UK don’t end up with chlorinated chicken and hormone + antibiotic ridden beef from Argentina.. oops!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

..so they are still all in favour are they, or did you forget to mention how much of a mistake they now think it is?
Clearly, some people think it was a mistake from the stats.. it wasn’t big business which has the resources to accommodate Brexit. Who is it I wonder?

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago

Transition to what?
Closer alignment to ease their problems?
Not if the ‘trade benefits ard to be exploited’. With many different trade arrangements the current bureaucracy will obviously continue if not be expanded.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

..so they are still all in favour are they, or did you forget to mention how much of a mistake they now think it is?
Clearly, some people think it was a mistake from the stats.. it wasn’t big business which has the resources to accommodate Brexit. Who is it I wonder?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Do you serious deny UnHerd or any other media its right to publish honestly got information? What’s your solution? Put UnHerd etc under state control? No doubt the media will also report on Brexit again in a few years, and again after that. The only other option is totalitarianism!

Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Ian you are quite right when I talk to SMEs who voted for Brexit and are having a tough time they all acknowledge they knew there was going to a transition period.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Do you serious deny UnHerd or any other media its right to publish honestly got information? What’s your solution? Put UnHerd etc under state control? No doubt the media will also report on Brexit again in a few years, and again after that. The only other option is totalitarianism!

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

The rest of the world also suffered from COVID, China, Ukraine, etc – so how come the UK is doing so much worse than other OECD nations? Since when has insularity been a good economic and trading characteristic?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

It’s not, and we aren’t.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Quite. Many of us are actually pro free trade and open competition and opposed to protectionism. But they never listended, and they’re not listening still. All Brexit voters were, of course the same, insular little Englanders ! A simple reading of these comments should be enough to bust that myth.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

You’re right! Protectionist Little Englander is the only sort of idiot in GB.. there are lots of others, varied and diverse.. there are the deluded and the misinformed; the deniers and the bewilfered, the dreamers and the gullible. You’re right… lots of different types of Brexiteers.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

You’re right! Protectionist Little Englander is the only sort of idiot in GB.. there are lots of others, varied and diverse.. there are the deluded and the misinformed; the deniers and the bewilfered, the dreamers and the gullible. You’re right… lots of different types of Brexiteers.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Eh, yes you are! You really, really are.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Quite. Many of us are actually pro free trade and open competition and opposed to protectionism. But they never listended, and they’re not listening still. All Brexit voters were, of course the same, insular little Englanders ! A simple reading of these comments should be enough to bust that myth.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Eh, yes you are! You really, really are.

Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago

Walter take a look at the GDP per capita of France, Germany, and the UK for the last twenty years and you will see Germany is ahead of both and remains ahead of both countries which have very similar outcomes one of which is in the EU and the other which is not. Personally, I think to say France and the UK have maintained their comparators means nothing at this early stage.
As you know German has a much bigger manufacturing activity and a smaller service sector than the UK. Given the way, restrictions were pursued and affected different industries and within different countries the fact that the UK is about half a percent down is unsurprising. Much more interesting is a comparable trading block to the EU, the US was another half percent up on the EU.
The idea that we could realign all our trading relationships and get going whilst the restrictions were going on is fanciful and disingenuous.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

It’s not, and we aren’t.

Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago

Walter take a look at the GDP per capita of France, Germany, and the UK for the last twenty years and you will see Germany is ahead of both and remains ahead of both countries which have very similar outcomes one of which is in the EU and the other which is not. Personally, I think to say France and the UK have maintained their comparators means nothing at this early stage.
As you know German has a much bigger manufacturing activity and a smaller service sector than the UK. Given the way, restrictions were pursued and affected different industries and within different countries the fact that the UK is about half a percent down is unsurprising. Much more interesting is a comparable trading block to the EU, the US was another half percent up on the EU.
The idea that we could realign all our trading relationships and get going whilst the restrictions were going on is fanciful and disingenuous.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago

There are a range of consequences of brexit and I’m not sure which you are prioritising, you don’t say. The sovereignty benefits are here today, apart from in NI.
Most recent coverage is about the economic effects which are gloomy, and people appear to have noticed this. This is not surprising- leaving aside overheated warnings, we knew brexit would cost and it is.
There’s often a lot happening, but the economic analysis can correct for this.
The question of whether trade has been detrimentally affected can still be assessed in the context of other world events.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stuart Woolvin
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

But look at the KPIs and the forecasts will you? Where is the wriggle room? Where is the political leadership? The reason it all looks so gloomy is because it is all gloomy! It was a dreadful mistake. If you want comparators compare NI growth to GB growth.. the difference there? NI remains in the Single Market!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Stuart Woolvin

But look at the KPIs and the forecasts will you? Where is the wriggle room? Where is the political leadership? The reason it all looks so gloomy is because it is all gloomy! It was a dreadful mistake. If you want comparators compare NI growth to GB growth.. the difference there? NI remains in the Single Market!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

…by “England” I presume you mean the UK (or maybe not?). By “Eire” I presume you mean Ireland. It’s very good of you to refer to my country in my own native language but I must insist you do likewise when referring to Italia, Espana, Deutchland, Belgique and Polska etc.

Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago

Spot on and well put.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Agreed, and most knew the pain was coming since the doom mongers forecast far far worse pain. But as others here have said, Unherd seems to have joined the serried ranks of mainstream media in judging Brexit NOW! Just ridiculous.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago

The rest of the world also suffered from COVID, China, Ukraine, etc – so how come the UK is doing so much worse than other OECD nations? Since when has insularity been a good economic and trading characteristic?

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago

There are a range of consequences of brexit and I’m not sure which you are prioritising, you don’t say. The sovereignty benefits are here today, apart from in NI.
Most recent coverage is about the economic effects which are gloomy, and people appear to have noticed this. This is not surprising- leaving aside overheated warnings, we knew brexit would cost and it is.
There’s often a lot happening, but the economic analysis can correct for this.
The question of whether trade has been detrimentally affected can still be assessed in the context of other world events.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stuart Woolvin
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

…by “England” I presume you mean the UK (or maybe not?). By “Eire” I presume you mean Ireland. It’s very good of you to refer to my country in my own native language but I must insist you do likewise when referring to Italia, Espana, Deutchland, Belgique and Polska etc.

Michelle Johnston
Michelle Johnston
1 year ago

The UK left the European Union in the early days of January 2020 when Sars Cov 2 was emerging in China.
Only this month 1.5 billion people who are crucial to the well-being of the global economy rejoined the rest of us. Only now will the old supply and demand issues reassert themselves and then there is the effect of hostilities in Ukraine. To argue these two issues do not affect people’s mood when trying to recognize what are and are not the effects of Brexit is partial, to say the least.
Realigning England was always a ten-year project as evinced by Capital Economics in their pre Vote report in 2016.
Personally rather like a domestic divorce when I see the behavior of the EU over the Northern Ireland Protocol, we are talking about 2 Billion Pounds of trade from NI to mainland Europe, (context we export 40 Billion directly to Eire) and talk to the those from outside the EU who try to deal with the EUs ‘protection of the free market” I am more convinced than ever England was correct to leave.
There was always going to be pain, to begin with, and that’s before you consider the consequences of the worst policy decisions by the elites since 1914 over a respiratory illness.

Last edited 1 year ago by Michelle Johnston
Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
1 year ago

Could this reflect six years’ worth of young people who couldn’t vote initially and who to a large extent represent the massive cultural shift we’ve seen over the last few years?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Frisby

It might well do so, and it’s worth keeping in mind that these voters are quite likely also to think free speech is hate speech and that men can become women by saying so.

The poll described above surely also captured this effect, so it would be interesting to see what the result would be once you simply throw away the opinions of anyone who takes transgender ideology seriously. I know of course that you can’t do that in a real election, but for the purposes of working out who actually possesses rational views, I suspect the trend would alter considerably.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

So we have already had the proposal that the free press be gagged.. now we are going to disenfranchise those with differing opinions as well. And we have had support for Poland and Hungary’s denial of judicial independence. Seems pretty obvious where this is heading… Heil Boris!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

So we have already had the proposal that the free press be gagged.. now we are going to disenfranchise those with differing opinions as well. And we have had support for Poland and Hungary’s denial of judicial independence. Seems pretty obvious where this is heading… Heil Boris!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Frisby

Yes indeed, and sadly it is they and not the curmudgeonly old gits (like me) who will inherit the whirlwind.
My generation has done much damage to the next generation and the one after that (today’s youth) but at least we didn’t dump them unto a backward looking, economic fiasco like my counterparts in GB!

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Frisby

It might well do so, and it’s worth keeping in mind that these voters are quite likely also to think free speech is hate speech and that men can become women by saying so.

The poll described above surely also captured this effect, so it would be interesting to see what the result would be once you simply throw away the opinions of anyone who takes transgender ideology seriously. I know of course that you can’t do that in a real election, but for the purposes of working out who actually possesses rational views, I suspect the trend would alter considerably.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Frisby

Yes indeed, and sadly it is they and not the curmudgeonly old gits (like me) who will inherit the whirlwind.
My generation has done much damage to the next generation and the one after that (today’s youth) but at least we didn’t dump them unto a backward looking, economic fiasco like my counterparts in GB!

Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
1 year ago

Could this reflect six years’ worth of young people who couldn’t vote initially and who to a large extent represent the massive cultural shift we’ve seen over the last few years?

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

It’s slightly depressing reading of course, but there is the key point in the article where it says this isn’t the same question as asking about support for Rejoin, for the very obvious reason that the EU we’d be rejoining is very different from the EU we left.

Pose a new referendum choice as to whether the UK joins the EU, submits its Armed Forces to French-led EU control, hands over tens of billions a year in EU fees, and joins the Euro just so that German taxpayers aren’t the only ones bailing out the periphery, and I can predict the answer with certainty. And it won’t be 52:48 either, it’ll be more decisive than that.

You have to add to this as well that the vote would be conducted with obnoxious clowns like Lord Adonis droning on and on, and Nigel Farage asking the country if they really want to hand victory to the class of people who the country utterly hated between 2016 and 2019 – and when I say “the country” I include a great many Remain voters who were as angry at the defiance of democracy as were Leave voters. The disgust most of us felt towards the political class has not evaporated, it is merely redirected into other forms of poltical scepticism at present. Put Lord Adonis on an EU soapbox in a Rejoin agenda though, and watch it all refocus onto the same issue again.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Indeed, as per my earlier comment, asking the question “are you happy with Brexit ?” is insufficient – and almost meaningless – without also asking “do you wish to rejoin the EU ?”. UnHerd should have asked both. Freddie clearly understood that these will produce different answers. So why didn’t they ? Feels like sloppy work.
You would have thought that asking two related questions would cost no more than asking one. But perhaps pollsters charge per question and that cost too much ?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Are you a statistician? If not then maybe best not to display your ignorance of the subject, eh?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Are you a statistician? If not then maybe best not to display your ignorance of the subject, eh?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

As a member of NATO your armed forces are already at the behest of EU (and especially US) generals and Danes like Stoltenberg. The British Empire is gone guys.. you’re a vassal state of the US like the rest of us. Get used it! They told you to blow up Nordstream2 and you did.. though that was probably a labour of love for you… one in the eye for the EU as it were.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Indeed, as per my earlier comment, asking the question “are you happy with Brexit ?” is insufficient – and almost meaningless – without also asking “do you wish to rejoin the EU ?”. UnHerd should have asked both. Freddie clearly understood that these will produce different answers. So why didn’t they ? Feels like sloppy work.
You would have thought that asking two related questions would cost no more than asking one. But perhaps pollsters charge per question and that cost too much ?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

As a member of NATO your armed forces are already at the behest of EU (and especially US) generals and Danes like Stoltenberg. The British Empire is gone guys.. you’re a vassal state of the US like the rest of us. Get used it! They told you to blow up Nordstream2 and you did.. though that was probably a labour of love for you… one in the eye for the EU as it were.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

It’s slightly depressing reading of course, but there is the key point in the article where it says this isn’t the same question as asking about support for Rejoin, for the very obvious reason that the EU we’d be rejoining is very different from the EU we left.

Pose a new referendum choice as to whether the UK joins the EU, submits its Armed Forces to French-led EU control, hands over tens of billions a year in EU fees, and joins the Euro just so that German taxpayers aren’t the only ones bailing out the periphery, and I can predict the answer with certainty. And it won’t be 52:48 either, it’ll be more decisive than that.

You have to add to this as well that the vote would be conducted with obnoxious clowns like Lord Adonis droning on and on, and Nigel Farage asking the country if they really want to hand victory to the class of people who the country utterly hated between 2016 and 2019 – and when I say “the country” I include a great many Remain voters who were as angry at the defiance of democracy as were Leave voters. The disgust most of us felt towards the political class has not evaporated, it is merely redirected into other forms of poltical scepticism at present. Put Lord Adonis on an EU soapbox in a Rejoin agenda though, and watch it all refocus onto the same issue again.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Michael W
Michael W
1 year ago

I think most of this dismay comes from the Government’s betrayal of the Brexit vote especially ignoring the demand to control immigration, where they have merely swapped East European immigrants for Asians and Africans. Furthermore the Government isn’t using its newfound political independence to bring in any laws that benefit the public.

Why anyone thought anything but this would happen when they voted to leave is beyond me.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael W

I’ll accept a charge of naivety.

I actually DID think that, having gone to the people with the question, our political establishment would enact the result fairly, and with competence, rather than trying to sabotage it.

I expect that is why, like so many people, I have lost all confidence in them.

Jim Head
Jim Head
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael W

What laws from the EU didn’t benefit the people of the UK? Was it oppressive to have a 900w limit on motors in vacuum cleaners?
The UK always had much more control of its borders and immigration than it let on while in the EU. But it was convenient to blame the EU.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Head

That 900w limit sucks.

Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Head

EU food safety / labelling laws were crippling for me as a (very) small chocolate maker.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Head

That 900w limit sucks.

Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Head

EU food safety / labelling laws were crippling for me as a (very) small chocolate maker.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael W

I’ll accept a charge of naivety.

I actually DID think that, having gone to the people with the question, our political establishment would enact the result fairly, and with competence, rather than trying to sabotage it.

I expect that is why, like so many people, I have lost all confidence in them.

Jim Head
Jim Head
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael W

What laws from the EU didn’t benefit the people of the UK? Was it oppressive to have a 900w limit on motors in vacuum cleaners?
The UK always had much more control of its borders and immigration than it let on while in the EU. But it was convenient to blame the EU.

Michael W
Michael W
1 year ago

I think most of this dismay comes from the Government’s betrayal of the Brexit vote especially ignoring the demand to control immigration, where they have merely swapped East European immigrants for Asians and Africans. Furthermore the Government isn’t using its newfound political independence to bring in any laws that benefit the public.

Why anyone thought anything but this would happen when they voted to leave is beyond me.

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
1 year ago

People love to believe in bullshit. Who answered these questions? Who was asked? In 30 years of political engagement i have only been asked my opinion twice, both times I was told, after two answers, that I was the wrong demographic. I stopped reading after the first paragraph. This is not the opinions of my fellow voters, it is the opinions of the person who paid for it.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago
Reply to  Leejon 0

I never been asked, ever. I’ve also not voted for 20 years so maybe they’ve “pulled a Homer” on that one.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Leejon 0

Maybe take some basic reading in the statistics of random sampling. See you at the next election.

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
1 year ago

Maybe some basic reading of my comment is also required
.

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
1 year ago

Maybe some basic reading of my comment is also required
.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago
Reply to  Leejon 0

I never been asked, ever. I’ve also not voted for 20 years so maybe they’ve “pulled a Homer” on that one.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Leejon 0

Maybe take some basic reading in the statistics of random sampling. See you at the next election.

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
1 year ago

People love to believe in bullshit. Who answered these questions? Who was asked? In 30 years of political engagement i have only been asked my opinion twice, both times I was told, after two answers, that I was the wrong demographic. I stopped reading after the first paragraph. This is not the opinions of my fellow voters, it is the opinions of the person who paid for it.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

So the “Counter- Reformation “ has begun. A double-barrelled assault in today’s UnHerd.
Let us hope it is NOT as poisonous as last time!

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Except this time there will be no comeback for the EU – it’s in short and long term decline so there won’t be any attraction to rejoining. However it would be nice to see a few heads rolling as a consequence of some the incompetence on display in implementing Brexit.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

In a nutshell!

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Why would it be in decline?
It’s a union a member states to lock-in stability, based on the historic belief that Europe is a ‘dangerous continent’ that rapidly fall into conflict without a clear unifying political structure.
Theres also diplomacy, deal-making and development grants to sweeten the offer.
If the EU is unneccesary then fair enough but I haven’t heard anyone state Europe is no longer in need of the stability and prosperity the EU was setup to promote.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stuart Woolvin
Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

In a nutshell!

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Why would it be in decline?
It’s a union a member states to lock-in stability, based on the historic belief that Europe is a ‘dangerous continent’ that rapidly fall into conflict without a clear unifying political structure.
Theres also diplomacy, deal-making and development grants to sweeten the offer.
If the EU is unneccesary then fair enough but I haven’t heard anyone state Europe is no longer in need of the stability and prosperity the EU was setup to promote.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stuart Woolvin
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Utter rubbish Charlie.. and so predictable.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Except this time there will be no comeback for the EU – it’s in short and long term decline so there won’t be any attraction to rejoining. However it would be nice to see a few heads rolling as a consequence of some the incompetence on display in implementing Brexit.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Utter rubbish Charlie.. and so predictable.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

So the “Counter- Reformation “ has begun. A double-barrelled assault in today’s UnHerd.
Let us hope it is NOT as poisonous as last time!

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago

Ah! There it is!

After 7 years of concerted sabotage attempts by almost every parliamentary, business, media, and governing agency in the land, Unherd’s Freddy Sayers (“nice” Metropolitan left-liberal views and European family) reveals a survey telling us all how we bitterly regret voting to leave the beloved EU.

The survey actually covers many interesting motivators, but strangely enough the entire written article is all and only about Brexit. Being a mistake. Well, whaddaya know?

And so the colours are nailed firmly to the Unherd mast? We’ll see I suppose…

There is a credibility problem here.I have yet to meet anybody I know who regrets voting to leave and strangely enough one reads the same thing again and again whenever we are all told we regret Brexit.

I fear our Freddy has just made his first move to join all those other disbelieved “experts” that are now so common in today’s rotten establishment. I hope that I am wrong.

Last edited 1 year ago by Albireo Double
Martin Ja...
Martin Ja...
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

Is it possible that your circle is very closely defined and is therefore unrepresentative of the nation as a whole?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Ja...

That’s certainly possible. But it’s also possible that the pollsters aren’t sampling enough from this group.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Quite.

And my comment was more about careful selection and presentation of this survey than a comment on people I know.

If Freddy is going to start to write propagandist puff pieces for Rejoin, then he’s going to have to declare himself, (a la Matthew Parris), or be a little less obvious…

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Quite.

And my comment was more about careful selection and presentation of this survey than a comment on people I know.

If Freddy is going to start to write propagandist puff pieces for Rejoin, then he’s going to have to declare himself, (a la Matthew Parris), or be a little less obvious…

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Ja...

That’s certainly possible. But it’s also possible that the pollsters aren’t sampling enough from this group.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

Let me guess: if the polling had gone the other way you’d be hailing it as some sort of vindication of the Leave vote and national rejection of our woke lizard overlords?

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago

Nope. You have the wrong man.

Call me old fashioned. But I just happen to dislike attempts to gerrymander our democracy

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago

Nope. You have the wrong man.

Call me old fashioned. But I just happen to dislike attempts to gerrymander our democracy

Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

Presumably Freddy is simply reporting the poll results. At this point we don’t know how he would have voted. The article says the results on the other questions will be released over coming weeks.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

I am not sure this article reads as showing bias in one direction or the other. Even though I still believe Brexit was the right choice on principle and I am quite certain on the point, I have to admit that the manner in which it was executed was bad to the point of being globally humiliating, and that what little benefits we gained from the exit deal haven’t even been leveraged yet. These reservations could easily crystallise in any multiple choice poll into looking a little like regret for Brexit itself.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

It’s two years into a strategic change in economic course – it’s beyond daft judging Brexit now even if things had been normal; but we’ve had covid and the Ukraine war, two of the biggest economic events in the last 50 years.

As a means of assessing public dissatisfaction this poll is worth doing; but to interpret it as an assessment of Brexit after just 2 years, I have to agree with the OP that this makes Unherd appear to be part of the scaremongering reactive media herd – very disappointing, and maybe it’s time to leave for Spiked!

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

The rest of the OECD has had COVID and Ukraine as well, and the UK is still the worst performing economy. But I admit, you now have a free trade agreement with Australia. And the 350M pounds for the NHS has really wrought miracles.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

The rest of the OECD has had COVID and Ukraine as well, and the UK is still the worst performing economy. But I admit, you now have a free trade agreement with Australia. And the 350M pounds for the NHS has really wrought miracles.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

It’s two years into a strategic change in economic course – it’s beyond daft judging Brexit now even if things had been normal; but we’ve had covid and the Ukraine war, two of the biggest economic events in the last 50 years.

As a means of assessing public dissatisfaction this poll is worth doing; but to interpret it as an assessment of Brexit after just 2 years, I have to agree with the OP that this makes Unherd appear to be part of the scaremongering reactive media herd – very disappointing, and maybe it’s time to leave for Spiked!

Martin Ja...
Martin Ja...
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

Is it possible that your circle is very closely defined and is therefore unrepresentative of the nation as a whole?

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

Let me guess: if the polling had gone the other way you’d be hailing it as some sort of vindication of the Leave vote and national rejection of our woke lizard overlords?

Sue Frisby
Sue Frisby
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

Presumably Freddy is simply reporting the poll results. At this point we don’t know how he would have voted. The article says the results on the other questions will be released over coming weeks.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

I am not sure this article reads as showing bias in one direction or the other. Even though I still believe Brexit was the right choice on principle and I am quite certain on the point, I have to admit that the manner in which it was executed was bad to the point of being globally humiliating, and that what little benefits we gained from the exit deal haven’t even been leveraged yet. These reservations could easily crystallise in any multiple choice poll into looking a little like regret for Brexit itself.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago

Ah! There it is!

After 7 years of concerted sabotage attempts by almost every parliamentary, business, media, and governing agency in the land, Unherd’s Freddy Sayers (“nice” Metropolitan left-liberal views and European family) reveals a survey telling us all how we bitterly regret voting to leave the beloved EU.

The survey actually covers many interesting motivators, but strangely enough the entire written article is all and only about Brexit. Being a mistake. Well, whaddaya know?

And so the colours are nailed firmly to the Unherd mast? We’ll see I suppose…

There is a credibility problem here.I have yet to meet anybody I know who regrets voting to leave and strangely enough one reads the same thing again and again whenever we are all told we regret Brexit.

I fear our Freddy has just made his first move to join all those other disbelieved “experts” that are now so common in today’s rotten establishment. I hope that I am wrong.

Last edited 1 year ago by Albireo Double
Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

What baffles me about the EU and Britain’s erstwhile membership of it, is as to why our politicians, whether we were members of the Fourth Reich EU or not, seem incapable at looking at other EU/ non EU policies that work… and copying them, such as…. Being paid to dispose of garbage and bottles, strict monotoring of police, no CCTV, and paying bills within 28 days ( Germany) , low taxes and ability to do individual tax deals with incoming wealthy individuals and families ( Switzerland), strictly monitored policing ( Germany) low drink and cigarette prices ( anywhere but nu britn), high speed limits ( Germany) Efficient and well managed trains and roads ( France switzerland and Germany), and so many more… and finallly one from Japan..and Switzerland.. highly controlled immigration. When put together with Britain’s superb variation of all available international food, and our legal and courts system ( with the addition of the French investigating magistrate system) when properly funded, and a German/French model health system incorporating free care+ an insurance system…. We are just about perfect?

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago

Those are not ‘EU policies’, but merely the different measures in different EU membership states, or non-EU states.

Stuart Woolvin
Stuart Woolvin
1 year ago

Those are not ‘EU policies’, but merely the different measures in different EU membership states, or non-EU states.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

What baffles me about the EU and Britain’s erstwhile membership of it, is as to why our politicians, whether we were members of the Fourth Reich EU or not, seem incapable at looking at other EU/ non EU policies that work… and copying them, such as…. Being paid to dispose of garbage and bottles, strict monotoring of police, no CCTV, and paying bills within 28 days ( Germany) , low taxes and ability to do individual tax deals with incoming wealthy individuals and families ( Switzerland), strictly monitored policing ( Germany) low drink and cigarette prices ( anywhere but nu britn), high speed limits ( Germany) Efficient and well managed trains and roads ( France switzerland and Germany), and so many more… and finallly one from Japan..and Switzerland.. highly controlled immigration. When put together with Britain’s superb variation of all available international food, and our legal and courts system ( with the addition of the French investigating magistrate system) when properly funded, and a German/French model health system incorporating free care+ an insurance system…. We are just about perfect?

Aidan Trimble
Aidan Trimble
1 year ago

Not a great start when you’ve still got the disgraced Mike Hill down as MP for Hartlepool. What else have you got wrong ?

Aidan Trimble
Aidan Trimble
1 year ago

Not a great start when you’ve still got the disgraced Mike Hill down as MP for Hartlepool. What else have you got wrong ?

Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago

A Brexit that hadn’t been consistently undermined by Britain’s institutions, politicians and an EU determined to punish Britain for its temerity would have looked very different.

Factor in Covid, Lockdown and Ukraine and it’s not hard to understand that Britain, like most other countries, has suffered over the last few years regardless of any good or bad effects from Brexit. The strongly pro-remain BBC has explained almost all Britain’s woes as being Brexit-related.

So the swing in opinion isn’t remotely surprising. Perhaps the question should have included a rider that allowed respondents to express the extent to which they feel Britain’s current woes can be attributed to Brexit as opposed the other things that have happened to us since 2019.

Roddy Campbell
Roddy Campbell
1 year ago

A Brexit that hadn’t been consistently undermined by Britain’s institutions, politicians and an EU determined to punish Britain for its temerity would have looked very different.

Factor in Covid, Lockdown and Ukraine and it’s not hard to understand that Britain, like most other countries, has suffered over the last few years regardless of any good or bad effects from Brexit. The strongly pro-remain BBC has explained almost all Britain’s woes as being Brexit-related.

So the swing in opinion isn’t remotely surprising. Perhaps the question should have included a rider that allowed respondents to express the extent to which they feel Britain’s current woes can be attributed to Brexit as opposed the other things that have happened to us since 2019.

opop anax
opop anax
1 year ago

I don’t believe a word of it. I am surprised at you Freddie (or maybe not). Unherd is increasingly parroting the Herd Groupthink but in a wheedling, rather dishonest way.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  opop anax

Moo.

opop anax
opop anax
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

QED

opop anax
opop anax
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

QED

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  opop anax

Moo.

opop anax
opop anax
1 year ago

I don’t believe a word of it. I am surprised at you Freddie (or maybe not). Unherd is increasingly parroting the Herd Groupthink but in a wheedling, rather dishonest way.

Jeremy Eves
Jeremy Eves
1 year ago

From your constituency maps it appears that you did not consider Northern Ireland worth
surveying. In the context of Brexit that is unwise, although I suspect not much will have changed since the referendum. However the mess following Brexit and the lack of progress in building on freedoms (if they exist) is in no small part due to the mess that was the partial dismantling of the UK and subsequent unilateral threats to disapply part or all of the protocol. The lies that were told to get Brexit done have come home to roost!

Jeremy Eves
Jeremy Eves
1 year ago

From your constituency maps it appears that you did not consider Northern Ireland worth
surveying. In the context of Brexit that is unwise, although I suspect not much will have changed since the referendum. However the mess following Brexit and the lack of progress in building on freedoms (if they exist) is in no small part due to the mess that was the partial dismantling of the UK and subsequent unilateral threats to disapply part or all of the protocol. The lies that were told to get Brexit done have come home to roost!

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
1 year ago

There are conflicting opinions on the purpose and objectives of the EU. This Swedish film goes behind the scenes at the EU. https://youtube.com/watch?v=xMuUEd6w54E&feature=share

Last edited 1 year ago by Diane Tasker
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

There is no doubt some “signal” (sustainable trend) in this data. But we really need to consider just how much “noise” there is in here too. Running this sort of survey when the public mood in general is highly pessimistic (far too much so in my view) is always going to produce this sort of result. And – as the author I think admits – general government unpopularity is always going to result in negative views on government policies. The fact that these views are expressed now does not mean they would be at a real election (this is effectively mid-term polling). But is this the right question ? Or the right time to pass judgement ? I would expect them to be much attentuated then.
Why didn’t UnHerd also ask the question “Do you wish to rejoin the EU” at the same time ? There’s certainly a large group of people who are unhappy with where Brexit is *at the moment* and would still not want to rejoin (almost certainly on less agreable terms). Without that, I suspect we risk “measuring noise” here.
I also question whether it isn’t still much too early to properly evaluate Brexit. UK policies are still adjusting. Future EU policies and direction are also still changing/unclear in many critical areas (for example, how to handle the debts of the southern countries, whether Poland and Hungary will be permitted to create their own laws as they see fit). We are still in the “punishment phase” where the EU is more focused on “proving” that the UK was wrong to leave rather than doing something about the more pressing real problems on its own doorstep.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

There was a poll conducted pre-2016 in which people were asked if they would vote the UK into a federal EU which included Euro membership, Brussels control of the Armed Forces and taxation substantially taken over at the federal level, with Westminister effectively becoming a regional devolved assembly with no real power. Support for this was just 4% of those polled.

Since this is what EU membership now involves – albeit at a date that is somewhere in the near to medium term future – a Rejoin agenda would have to persuade the UK electorate of this proposition. It also follows, interestingly, that support for EU membership in 2016 was based to a great degree upon ignorance of what EU membership actually involves. So much for Brexit voters not understanding what they voted for.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Riordan
Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I always admire this rhetorical ploy where “England” is cast against “Brussels” as if England was not an influential part of Brussels. Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, Dr Johnson famously said.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

I have no idea why your comment is relevant here. You appear to be arguing with somebody else about something else.

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
1 year ago

However he famously said it with regards to the short lived “Patriot” political faction not with regards to the emotion. Using a logical fallacy is bad enough, misusing one is pitiable.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago