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Happy Brexit Day. Credit: John Keeble/Getty
Three years after Britain finally left the European Union, Brexit has not only lost its popularity, but also, it seems, its power. Today, according to new UnHerd polling, not only does a clear majority think the decision to leave was wrong, but a majority in every constituency in the country — bar one — feels the same. Even more significant than this, however, is the revelation that public views are beginning to harden down old party lines again, merging the old Tory and Labour divide with Leave and Remain. Brexit, that once-great scrambling event in British politics that sliced through the old partisan loyalties, has started to settle into a more easily understandable Left and Right-wing issue. And here’s the potentially transformative effect of this great re-formation: it is now Labour who stands to gain from the Brexit revolution, not the Tories.
Between 2016 and 2019, Brexit allowed the Conservative Party to win over parts of the country it had previously found almost impossible to conquer. Boris Johnson’s pledge to “Get Brexit Done” appealed to enough people in traditional Labour areas to flip scores of seats blue. Today, though the effect itself has flipped. Brexit has been done and most people have concluded it was a mistake. Swing areas in northern England, Wales and the Midlands have turned against Brexit more strongly than traditional Tory areas.
The problem for the Tories is that all those voters who regret Brexit also see it as synonymous with the Conservative Party. Labour, on the other hand, has become associated with Remain — even though it rejects the idea of rejoining the EU and has vowed to “make Brexit work”. Labour, then, finds itself in the enviable position of benefiting from the Tory party’s association with Brexit, but without having to actually risk reopening the old wounds of the referendum by pledging to rejoin the EU. “Making Brexit Work” is smart politics — for now.
We have been here before. Look at what happened in Scotland after the independence referendum. There, the No campaign saw off the independence movement in 2014, but the parties associated with its victory became unpopular shortly after. The same thing didn’t happen immediately after the Brexit referendum, but the effect might just have been delayed by parliament’s failure to deliver on that result until 2020. So, we may now be witnessing the “loser’s premium” that couldn’t kick in until Brexit had actually been delivered.
This could be potentially transformative, but is not without some peril for Labour — and the country. The more voters declare their regret over Brexit, the more pressure there will be from Remainers to re-open the constitutional question over Europe — in the same way that the issue of independence has not gone away in Scotland. It is at this point that the difference between believing that Britain should not have left the EU, and believing it should open negotiations (and almost certainly hold another referendum) to rejoin will also emerge. The old conditions of British membership, remember, have gone and so “Rejoin” is not “reverse Brexit”; it now means creating something new. Would this mean, then, even higher budget contributions than before, the adoption of the euro and accession to Schengen? It seems impossible that David Cameron’s renegotiated membership plan (remember that?) could somehow be resurrected. The history of Britain’s entry — and exit — negotiations suggests very strongly that it will not be Britain who sets the terms, but the EU.
Starmer is therefore right to conclude that “Making Brexit Work” is a far surer bet than Rejoin: he could capitalise on the public’s disappointment with Brexit. However, there is another challenge for Starmer and the Labour Party. Just as Franklin Roosevelt was said to have saved capitalism from itself in the Thirties (a disputed claim, of course) by deploying the full power of the state to wrench the country out of its great depression, it may fall to Starmer — the man who called for a second referendum — to save Brexit from itself. There are plenty of people, of course, who think it is simply not possible to make it work, who believe that the only option is ever more close alignment with the EU — thereby undermining the very purpose of Brexit in the first place. If the only way to make Brexit work is to give up control by adopting whatever laws are passed in Brussels, this, to put it mildly, does not seem a very sensible place to be.
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SubscribeTypically, the author is using short-term and temporary views expressed in polling using stratification that can be notorious for its lack of accuracy (as on the eve of the Brexit vote in 2016) to draw the wrong conclusions.
Might i suggest that those who voted to Leave simply want to see the job completed? Of course, at this still early stage in the Brexit ‘revolution’ the initial extrication process is producing difficulties which skew the public perception; constantly highlighted by the Remain-leaning media and with the Tories off-balance and unable to make sufficient legislative progress
This will change with time. A warning to Labour: try to row back on Brexit at your peril. The EU is showing signs of coming to terms with our departure, for instance the admission by Leo Varadkar that “mistakes had been made” by the EU during negotiations. As wounds heal, a better accommodation can be acheived and the full benefits of Brexit will swing into place. So will the public mood.
If Labour understands this, all well and good, but somehow i suspect arch-Remainer Starmer just doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get it in just the same way he doesn’t get that only women have a cervix. Or at least when asked, he’s not sure, which is even worse.
Correct I think. The signal-to-noise ratio in any current polling is very low and the results really quite volatile.
I love this idea that polls are “volatile”, change over time and largely “noise”.
What was the Brexit referendum, if not a brief snapshot of “volatile ” opinion- a poll in effect, yet one carved into granite.
If public opinion is just leaves in the breeze, here one minute and gone the next, what was the referendum (mere public opinion on one particular day) supposed to prove?
At least in 2016, every voter had a chance to express an opinion. Not so with polls which also give no guarantee of accuracy.
At least in 2016, every voter had a chance to express an opinion. Not so with polls which also give no guarantee of accuracy.
..more wishful thinking. You’re hoping voters have no memories, no brains and no pockets.
I love this idea that polls are “volatile”, change over time and largely “noise”.
What was the Brexit referendum, if not a brief snapshot of “volatile ” opinion- a poll in effect, yet one carved into granite.
If public opinion is just leaves in the breeze, here one minute and gone the next, what was the referendum (mere public opinion on one particular day) supposed to prove?
..more wishful thinking. You’re hoping voters have no memories, no brains and no pockets.
This idea that Brexit hasn’t been given a chance and needs more time, is all very well. How much more time before we see a single crumb of vindication? The trouble is that as someone once said: in the long run we’re all dead.
So why do you feel it isn’t working?
Three for you as a start i) only G7 to not yet return to pre-pandemic size of economy ii) immigration has increased not reduced iii) NI gridlock due to protocol debate on-going.
Could add many others, but let’s just start with those.
Now explain why those three actually show it is working?
The lack of growth or the lack of a reduction in immigration, is not down to Brexit. If the government doesn’t have a plan for either of them, then it doesn’t matter which trading bloc you’re in. As for the NI protocol, it’s a red herring. The protocol should have never been put in place, it was a tact by remainer MPs to try and keep us in. The question on the ballot paper asked remain or leave; not some parts leave and some parts remain.
I voted for Brexit because I believe a smaller state is better for the people as a whole. I can also see that our balance of trade (this is the important part) with the EU is improving. Over the last 20 or so years of being in the EU we had a trade deficit of around £800 billion. That’s £800 billion which left our economy and went to someone else’s, how anyone could possibly think that was a good trading relationship, is beyond me. Large deficits over long periods, leads to high debt and low productivity, I assume you see this in the UK?
Lack of growth – it’s more than a correlation. We’ve added trade barriers. Others haven’t.
Immigration – withdrawal from Dublin agreement led to surge in Channel crossings as we can’t send the back to France. Plus economic woes related to Brexit caused Govt to allow more immigration to try and buttress other sectors, but coupled with Border Force and Immigration office being overwhelmed much control lost.
NI protocol signed to ‘Get Brexit Done’ if you remember, by the politician who made Brexit happen. Your deflection of blame onto Remainers utter nonsense and a failure to take responsibility. Johnson was not a Remainer (although no doubt that’d be the next excuse!)
Your reason for voting – i.e. a smaller state – a legit reason whatever one might think but almost certainly not shared by millions of Brexit voters esp in Red wall area. They wanted more help from Govt and they ain’t got it.
Finally we had a trade deficit in ‘Goods’, but that rebalanced to a surplus with Services. You’ve been played if you only appreciated one side of things, although in truth we all have to be better at checking things out and not being immediately swayed by a bit of confirmatory bias.
Yet our growth over the last few decades, has been with countries that trade under WTO. During the same period, our trade with the EU, that magical bloc where trade is so easy, we shrunk.
We don’t grow oranges in the UK, yet the EU made us apply tariffs of circa 14% if we imported them in from none EU countries. Why would we make products more expensive for the UK population? The EU is a protectionist bloc, which is great, if you want your business protecting, but not so good for your population.
Too simplistic. Yes everyone’s growth was related to China’s growth for 10-15yrs. Germans done well out of that as did all of the EU. Nothing unique. But when you do 43% of all your trade with a Bloc you don’t decide to make that harder and not expect a negative economic consequence. You also get additionally mindful of the fragility in the South China sea and stop assuming the Chinese ‘motor’ lasts forever.
As regards price of oranges – if a cheaper orange was your priority then fine, but go ask our Farmers how much they’ve welcomed Brexit freedoms.
Having a £800 billion deficit over the last 20 years, has negative economic consequences. Choice is a Brexit freedom.
All you are doing here is displaying confirmation bias. You wanted to stay in, therefore all the reasons for doing so are good, and all the reasons for leaving (however valid) are bad.
Having a £800 billion deficit over the last 20 years, has negative economic consequences. Choice is a Brexit freedom.
All you are doing here is displaying confirmation bias. You wanted to stay in, therefore all the reasons for doing so are good, and all the reasons for leaving (however valid) are bad.
There are 550 million people in the EU and you call it protectionist. Is planet Earth also protectionist as it doesn’t permit imports for Mars?
The whole idea of having a 27 state EU was to eliminate protectionism in European states!
Too simplistic. Yes everyone’s growth was related to China’s growth for 10-15yrs. Germans done well out of that as did all of the EU. Nothing unique. But when you do 43% of all your trade with a Bloc you don’t decide to make that harder and not expect a negative economic consequence. You also get additionally mindful of the fragility in the South China sea and stop assuming the Chinese ‘motor’ lasts forever.
As regards price of oranges – if a cheaper orange was your priority then fine, but go ask our Farmers how much they’ve welcomed Brexit freedoms.
There are 550 million people in the EU and you call it protectionist. Is planet Earth also protectionist as it doesn’t permit imports for Mars?
The whole idea of having a 27 state EU was to eliminate protectionism in European states!
Reality.. not a popular stance but a good one!
Yet our growth over the last few decades, has been with countries that trade under WTO. During the same period, our trade with the EU, that magical bloc where trade is so easy, we shrunk.
We don’t grow oranges in the UK, yet the EU made us apply tariffs of circa 14% if we imported them in from none EU countries. Why would we make products more expensive for the UK population? The EU is a protectionist bloc, which is great, if you want your business protecting, but not so good for your population.
Reality.. not a popular stance but a good one!
Precisely. Why people should imagine that another level of even more remote, even more unelected, even more corrupt & self-serving layer of bureaucracy on top of what we already have would improve our situation is beyond me.
At least we have the opportunity to kick the present bunch of dimwits out of office every 4 years; the fact the opposition is possibly even worse is largely our own apathetic fault. If enough people get sufficiently annoyed then a new party will win the day. It’s up to us, the electorate to kick both Labour parties out of office & replace them with a proper right-of-centre government.
If you have local govt why have national govt and if you have national govt why have UK govt? The US has county, state and federal governments.. it’s a common approach.
If you have a British army why have NATO? If you havr NATO why have the UN?..If you’re able to answer even some of those questions you’ll probably be able to answer your own question.
If you have local govt why have national govt and if you have national govt why have UK govt? The US has county, state and federal governments.. it’s a common approach.
If you have a British army why have NATO? If you havr NATO why have the UN?..If you’re able to answer even some of those questions you’ll probably be able to answer your own question.
You simply can’t describe a near constitutional crisis in Northern Ireland and the erection of an internal trade barriers within the UK as a ‘red herring’, whatever view you might have of the situation!
It is also ridiculous to blame ‘Remainer MPs’ for the Protocol. Boris Johnson signed it, at the time claiming it was the most fantastic agreement!
Simplistic. Dismissive of serious issues. Total ignorance on economic realities.. but very popular despite those (minor?) deficiencies!
Lack of growth – it’s more than a correlation. We’ve added trade barriers. Others haven’t.
Immigration – withdrawal from Dublin agreement led to surge in Channel crossings as we can’t send the back to France. Plus economic woes related to Brexit caused Govt to allow more immigration to try and buttress other sectors, but coupled with Border Force and Immigration office being overwhelmed much control lost.
NI protocol signed to ‘Get Brexit Done’ if you remember, by the politician who made Brexit happen. Your deflection of blame onto Remainers utter nonsense and a failure to take responsibility. Johnson was not a Remainer (although no doubt that’d be the next excuse!)
Your reason for voting – i.e. a smaller state – a legit reason whatever one might think but almost certainly not shared by millions of Brexit voters esp in Red wall area. They wanted more help from Govt and they ain’t got it.
Finally we had a trade deficit in ‘Goods’, but that rebalanced to a surplus with Services. You’ve been played if you only appreciated one side of things, although in truth we all have to be better at checking things out and not being immediately swayed by a bit of confirmatory bias.
Precisely. Why people should imagine that another level of even more remote, even more unelected, even more corrupt & self-serving layer of bureaucracy on top of what we already have would improve our situation is beyond me.
At least we have the opportunity to kick the present bunch of dimwits out of office every 4 years; the fact the opposition is possibly even worse is largely our own apathetic fault. If enough people get sufficiently annoyed then a new party will win the day. It’s up to us, the electorate to kick both Labour parties out of office & replace them with a proper right-of-centre government.
You simply can’t describe a near constitutional crisis in Northern Ireland and the erection of an internal trade barriers within the UK as a ‘red herring’, whatever view you might have of the situation!
It is also ridiculous to blame ‘Remainer MPs’ for the Protocol. Boris Johnson signed it, at the time claiming it was the most fantastic agreement!
Simplistic. Dismissive of serious issues. Total ignorance on economic realities.. but very popular despite those (minor?) deficiencies!
Why do you think Brexit was all about immigration?
Why do you think many people care about NI?
And I don’t know where you’re getting your G7 numbers from, but I can assure the only ‘recovery’ in the Italian economy comes from the PNRR, a euphemism for incredible debt (yes much worse than the UK’s).
Nor was I aware France and Japan had recovered. Germany has broken even.
Yes, the USA, Canada and Australia are doing well (as is Switzerland). Go figure.
Ireland’s GDP grew by 13.4% in 2021 and by 12.2% in 2022 but then we are in the EU, though not of course in the G7.
It is well understood how Ireland’s GDP growth is being achieved – tax arbitrage within the EU – and its continued viability is rather subject to the other EU countries tolerating Ireland effectively stealing their tax revenues.
It is well understood how Ireland’s GDP growth is being achieved – tax arbitrage within the EU – and its continued viability is rather subject to the other EU countries tolerating Ireland effectively stealing their tax revenues.
Ireland’s GDP grew by 13.4% in 2021 and by 12.2% in 2022 but then we are in the EU, though not of course in the G7.
Quite simply too much is focussed on the current economic success or otherwise of Brexit. I voted leave because we had no effective vote on EU policies which meant that the UK particularly had limited influence on it’s future. We had to trust that the EU elites would do the right thing. So yes there is much wrong both because of Brexit and the current state of our politics. But the NI issue is a mess that needed sorting and Brexit has shone a light on that. Some common sense could solve it. Immigration is potentially under our control but we can now see what a mess that is. Hopefully on all fronts these issues will gradually be resolved where as before they and many others were covered over. I may well be living in a dream world though, where politicians and civil servants can make things better.
The lack of growth or the lack of a reduction in immigration, is not down to Brexit. If the government doesn’t have a plan for either of them, then it doesn’t matter which trading bloc you’re in. As for the NI protocol, it’s a red herring. The protocol should have never been put in place, it was a tact by remainer MPs to try and keep us in. The question on the ballot paper asked remain or leave; not some parts leave and some parts remain.
I voted for Brexit because I believe a smaller state is better for the people as a whole. I can also see that our balance of trade (this is the important part) with the EU is improving. Over the last 20 or so years of being in the EU we had a trade deficit of around £800 billion. That’s £800 billion which left our economy and went to someone else’s, how anyone could possibly think that was a good trading relationship, is beyond me. Large deficits over long periods, leads to high debt and low productivity, I assume you see this in the UK?
Why do you think Brexit was all about immigration?
Why do you think many people care about NI?
And I don’t know where you’re getting your G7 numbers from, but I can assure the only ‘recovery’ in the Italian economy comes from the PNRR, a euphemism for incredible debt (yes much worse than the UK’s).
Nor was I aware France and Japan had recovered. Germany has broken even.
Yes, the USA, Canada and Australia are doing well (as is Switzerland). Go figure.
Quite simply too much is focussed on the current economic success or otherwise of Brexit. I voted leave because we had no effective vote on EU policies which meant that the UK particularly had limited influence on it’s future. We had to trust that the EU elites would do the right thing. So yes there is much wrong both because of Brexit and the current state of our politics. But the NI issue is a mess that needed sorting and Brexit has shone a light on that. Some common sense could solve it. Immigration is potentially under our control but we can now see what a mess that is. Hopefully on all fronts these issues will gradually be resolved where as before they and many others were covered over. I may well be living in a dream world though, where politicians and civil servants can make things better.
Three for you as a start i) only G7 to not yet return to pre-pandemic size of economy ii) immigration has increased not reduced iii) NI gridlock due to protocol debate on-going.
Could add many others, but let’s just start with those.
Now explain why those three actually show it is working?
Keynes.
Correct.
Correct.
This idea that Brexit hasn’t been given a chance is largely a projection. If the objective was to recapture political power from a supranational corporate elite then Brexit is already partially successful. All that remains is to reform the British state to return power to the demos.
Exactly that.
Ok, let’s assume that’s the case – what you’ve done last 6 years? And what reforms, practical, publicly supported and fundable are you referring to?
I haven’t done anything – I’m not a politician. The politicians haven’t done anything either because we only left the EU a couple of weeks before the pandemic struck.
The reform we need is de-centralisation – as even some in the Labour Party are beginning to realise
One day even guys like you might begin to understand that the idea that a complex society and economy like ours can be successfully managed by fifty or sixty people at the centre is just plain stupid.
The entire that a continent with a population of five hundred million can be successfully managed by twenty seven unelected bureaucrats isn’t just stupid, it’s insane.
I agree with further decentralisation. If Brexit was going to mean anything it couldn’t be even more centralisation within the Exec at Westminster. Lack of devolved power may be one reason we have such a north-south divide.
But the other is what have the Brexiteers leaders been doing? Heard Farage or Hannan come up with some practical ideas recently? I think the former was grumbling about Bankers moving to Milan last wk or so. You couldn’t make it up.
Another classic example of remainer projection is this idea that we were all bamboozled by Farage etc. Have you read the Maastricht Treaty. No, you haven’t, have you? I have. I don’t need Farage to tell me that it was a coup d’etat.
Not all for sure, but enough were bamboozled to make a difference.
Re: Maastricht – yep the biggest thing it did was establish roadmap to intro of the Euro etc, for which we negotiated an op-out. And your point?
Nope, you haven’t read it if you think that was what it was about.
The UK did not negotiate an opt-out of the, it had the right not join.
The Euro was just the first on a long line of ‘ever tighter integrations’. The UK does not want to roll into a single state, but by exercising a right to stay out it would end up not being able to participate in many systems and mechanisms, but unable to make alternative arrangements.
You should take a look at what has been introduced post Lisbon.
Nope, you haven’t read it if you think that was what it was about.
The UK did not negotiate an opt-out of the, it had the right not join.
The Euro was just the first on a long line of ‘ever tighter integrations’. The UK does not want to roll into a single state, but by exercising a right to stay out it would end up not being able to participate in many systems and mechanisms, but unable to make alternative arrangements.
You should take a look at what has been introduced post Lisbon.
The real coup was the Lisbon treaty.
But if Labour try to go back into the single market they will be rudely reminded of the truth!
To quote Stephen Fry, “absolute arsegravy”
The best thing to do when you have nothing at all to say is to say nothing at all.
The best thing to do when you have nothing at all to say is to say nothing at all.
Not all for sure, but enough were bamboozled to make a difference.
Re: Maastricht – yep the biggest thing it did was establish roadmap to intro of the Euro etc, for which we negotiated an op-out. And your point?
The real coup was the Lisbon treaty.
But if Labour try to go back into the single market they will be rudely reminded of the truth!
To quote Stephen Fry, “absolute arsegravy”
Another classic example of remainer projection is this idea that we were all bamboozled by Farage etc. Have you read the Maastricht Treaty. No, you haven’t, have you? I have. I don’t need Farage to tell me that it was a coup d’etat.
Beautifully put
I agree with further decentralisation. If Brexit was going to mean anything it couldn’t be even more centralisation within the Exec at Westminster. Lack of devolved power may be one reason we have such a north-south divide.
But the other is what have the Brexiteers leaders been doing? Heard Farage or Hannan come up with some practical ideas recently? I think the former was grumbling about Bankers moving to Milan last wk or so. You couldn’t make it up.
Beautifully put
As a point of fact, after a period of prolonged constitutional crisis, Brexit was enacted 3 years ago (31 January 2020) not 6, a point which seems to escape lots of people. Then of course we had the pandemic which completely dominated government bandwidth, so to be fair it is very early days in the Brexit story.
So the distraction of Brexit can’t be blamed for the loss of focus on other key issues? I think that’s a weak argument. This was a choice and a choice to do a ‘Hard’ version added to that.
It is fair that pandemic took over focus for a period, but many depts would still have been able to work on the industrial and education/training plans in the meantime. And besides moment we were leaving and Tories eschewed a ‘soft’ option it was clear a massive Govt effort was needed to realign a whole raft of policy. Where for example, 6 years on, is the workforce plan for education and health care? (if we are not to continue trekking round the world trying to recruit).
Part of why I think we aren’t better prepared now is because the Brexit leadership assumed we’d get a better deal with the EU via the TCA than we did. That was naive, and worse, deliberately misleading via the ‘cake and eat it’ theme. We still haven’t completed all the negotiations (NI protocol being but one) and many of the articles within the TCA come up for renewal/renegotiation over next 2-3 years.
The point is that once we’d made the decision to Leave the Brexiteers needed to quickly get very honest with the public about the trade offs and the decisions that would then be needed. That would have shown integrity and we could potentially get behind it. They didn’t, in part because Brexit continues to have significant contradictions of Vision from it’s exponents.
So the distraction of Brexit can’t be blamed for the loss of focus on other key issues? I think that’s a weak argument. This was a choice and a choice to do a ‘Hard’ version added to that.
It is fair that pandemic took over focus for a period, but many depts would still have been able to work on the industrial and education/training plans in the meantime. And besides moment we were leaving and Tories eschewed a ‘soft’ option it was clear a massive Govt effort was needed to realign a whole raft of policy. Where for example, 6 years on, is the workforce plan for education and health care? (if we are not to continue trekking round the world trying to recruit).
Part of why I think we aren’t better prepared now is because the Brexit leadership assumed we’d get a better deal with the EU via the TCA than we did. That was naive, and worse, deliberately misleading via the ‘cake and eat it’ theme. We still haven’t completed all the negotiations (NI protocol being but one) and many of the articles within the TCA come up for renewal/renegotiation over next 2-3 years.
The point is that once we’d made the decision to Leave the Brexiteers needed to quickly get very honest with the public about the trade offs and the decisions that would then be needed. That would have shown integrity and we could potentially get behind it. They didn’t, in part because Brexit continues to have significant contradictions of Vision from it’s exponents.
I haven’t done anything – I’m not a politician. The politicians haven’t done anything either because we only left the EU a couple of weeks before the pandemic struck.
The reform we need is de-centralisation – as even some in the Labour Party are beginning to realise
One day even guys like you might begin to understand that the idea that a complex society and economy like ours can be successfully managed by fifty or sixty people at the centre is just plain stupid.
The entire that a continent with a population of five hundred million can be successfully managed by twenty seven unelected bureaucrats isn’t just stupid, it’s insane.
As a point of fact, after a period of prolonged constitutional crisis, Brexit was enacted 3 years ago (31 January 2020) not 6, a point which seems to escape lots of people. Then of course we had the pandemic which completely dominated government bandwidth, so to be fair it is very early days in the Brexit story.
Don’t hold your breath. Brexit was more than a little about certain people evading EU interference in their tax affairs. Those same people are far from inclined to return power to the likes of you and me.
Exactly that.
Ok, let’s assume that’s the case – what you’ve done last 6 years? And what reforms, practical, publicly supported and fundable are you referring to?
Don’t hold your breath. Brexit was more than a little about certain people evading EU interference in their tax affairs. Those same people are far from inclined to return power to the likes of you and me.
Isn’t it time we stopped thinking only in the short term? That’s one of the key problems in the political landscape. Our forebears thought in decades, if not longer, otherwise the building of our magnificent cathedrals would never have happened. Or more latterly, our canals and railways (even with HS2 being dragged out still!)
How long to see the long term effects in a change of course on economic strategy? A single crumb?
Your biased knickers are showing Simon! Vaccines, Ukraine – the two most important political events in the last 50 years, where the U.K. led the way as the EU prevaricated, and then threatened others. They’re pretty big crumbs, except to people who look the other way.
And putting those immediate positives to one side, every forecaster said we wouldn’t get the long term benefits for at least 10 years, more like 20. I’m happy with that.
I’ll put my hands up to charges of bias. I suppose if my sales to Europe hadn’t been wiped out; my ability to travel in support of those sales hadn’t been hobbled by red tape and additional cost and my dream of retiring somewhere sunny and civilised hadn’t been scotched (can I say that?) then I’d be a little more sanguine about things. I’m a remoaner not a rejoiner and I fully understand there’s no going back. But boy am I going continue complaining about it. And sovereignty ? The organised crime group currently running the country: there’s yer sovereignty.
Having just been to sunny Spain I can assure you you’ve over-egged the problem of retiring there. They will more than happily facilitate the acceptance of your hard earned pension.
Ah you’re chagrin is understandable – I’d be moaning too in your situation!
Having just been to sunny Spain I can assure you you’ve over-egged the problem of retiring there. They will more than happily facilitate the acceptance of your hard earned pension.
Ah you’re chagrin is understandable – I’d be moaning too in your situation!
There’s a distinct irony in the idea that the supposed “positives” of Brexit won’t be seen for twenty years, given, the fact that the majority of Brexit voters where over fifty, and vanishingly few young people voted for it. Which mean most of those who voted for it knew, apparently, that they’d never see the benefits.
Correctimundo as some comedy soap character would have said.
And it’s beautiful, not ironic, that these older people voted selflessly for something that would benefit their kids and grandkids. They understood what the EU had become, and the long term threat of its imperial strategy.
Correctimundo as some comedy soap character would have said.
And it’s beautiful, not ironic, that these older people voted selflessly for something that would benefit their kids and grandkids. They understood what the EU had become, and the long term threat of its imperial strategy.
I’ll put my hands up to charges of bias. I suppose if my sales to Europe hadn’t been wiped out; my ability to travel in support of those sales hadn’t been hobbled by red tape and additional cost and my dream of retiring somewhere sunny and civilised hadn’t been scotched (can I say that?) then I’d be a little more sanguine about things. I’m a remoaner not a rejoiner and I fully understand there’s no going back. But boy am I going continue complaining about it. And sovereignty ? The organised crime group currently running the country: there’s yer sovereignty.
There’s a distinct irony in the idea that the supposed “positives” of Brexit won’t be seen for twenty years, given, the fact that the majority of Brexit voters where over fifty, and vanishingly few young people voted for it. Which mean most of those who voted for it knew, apparently, that they’d never see the benefits.
So why do you feel it isn’t working?
Keynes.
This idea that Brexit hasn’t been given a chance is largely a projection. If the objective was to recapture political power from a supranational corporate elite then Brexit is already partially successful. All that remains is to reform the British state to return power to the demos.
Isn’t it time we stopped thinking only in the short term? That’s one of the key problems in the political landscape. Our forebears thought in decades, if not longer, otherwise the building of our magnificent cathedrals would never have happened. Or more latterly, our canals and railways (even with HS2 being dragged out still!)
How long to see the long term effects in a change of course on economic strategy? A single crumb?
Your biased knickers are showing Simon! Vaccines, Ukraine – the two most important political events in the last 50 years, where the U.K. led the way as the EU prevaricated, and then threatened others. They’re pretty big crumbs, except to people who look the other way.
And putting those immediate positives to one side, every forecaster said we wouldn’t get the long term benefits for at least 10 years, more like 20. I’m happy with that.
Any views you personally dislike are viewed with contempt, as they are “short-term and temporary” views.
Just a mass national speed-wobble everyone sees the light coming from the sunlit uplands, eh?
But if you’re right, and views tend to be “short-term and temporary”, then it supports my view that referendums – on any subject – have no place in a representative democracy.
Referendums are too intrinsically febrile, and too susceptible to troll-farm / mob-capture. A system of representative democracy moves more slowly and any change emanating therefrom will be less socially divisive and longer lasting. That is, if you don’t like something, you need to get out there, form a party, sell your ideas to the electorate and get into government on your manifesto. That takes real commitment and tends to weed out the dilettantes, like Farage (he just forms a company, fails repeatedly to get elected, and institutes social media and PR campaigns, all of which can be achieved merely by money). By contrast, voting in a referendum is no more onerous than voting in a bake-off competition.
Ideally, you’d never have a referendum. They are a crude import from an entirely different system (a plebiscite democracy), and have no place in a representative democracy,
And as Margaret Thatcher (quoting Clement Attlee) noted: “Perhaps the late Lord Attlee was right,” she observed, “when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues.”
Hear, hear. But if the current fashion is to insist on having one of those wretched modern degenerations into governance by panem et circenses, there should at least be a mandatory supermajority (of at least 75%), and there also should be compulsory voting (fine no-show voters via PAYE or in their benefits) to get above (e.g.) a 75% turnout. Absent those conditions, it’s just a recipe for endless division.
As an archetypal “Plastic Paddy”, how would your theories have worked out in the benighted Republic of Ireland or the “Kerrygold Republic” as we used to know her?
We don’t live in a ‘representative democracy’.
The 2016 referendum result was amply confirmed by the 2019 General Election result. Both of those, national polls, not testing the water of 10,000.
I note what you say, but representative democracy has a weakness of its own, which has for some time now been the subject of increasing disquiet among large numbers of the electorate (notably of the UK and the USA).
That is, political parties do as you say, offer their ideas to the voters over time (rather than in a once-only referendum issue).
But then, once elected, the representatives don’t implement their own prospectus. So in reality it isn’t representative democracy, because it’s just the ‘representatives’ doing what appeals to them.
And the growing narrative about ‘the elites’ is that their preoccupations and values are not at all ‘representative’ (if I can use that term) of what the demos wants.
Problem.
Absolutely. It must be thirty of forty years since electoral rhetoric had any impact at all on policy. And it’s not as if the bulk of those policies have been more successful, or even wiser, as a result.
Absolutely. It must be thirty of forty years since electoral rhetoric had any impact at all on policy. And it’s not as if the bulk of those policies have been more successful, or even wiser, as a result.
Nailed it. Although I was thinking 66% with all non voters counting as a vote for the status quo. On that basis hardly anyone voted in favour of Leave and a sizeable chunk will be dead by now anyway.
Of course you can’t count non-voters. If you do that then the government would always get re-elected, simply by claiming the 30% of people who didn’t vote “supported the status quo” !!!
You’re just making this up. Truly desperate marketing.
Yet again, the fallacy that people do not change their views as they grow older. I and many others did.
Basic errors. Must do better.
The point is that the great “Will of the People” rhetoric is bollocks. “The People” had no “will” about Brexit then, and even less so now.
A very slim majority of those who bothered to vote- a majority based overwhelmingly on age, not the “left behind” or any other lame rhetorical device favoured by some- voted for it on the day, and now, on a different day, quite a lot of them have changed their minds, or died. So now we must make the best of something that a minority of a minority think was a great idea.
So no, not, in reality, The Voice Of The People.
I meant votes in referenda not general elections. Sometimes I’m unclear in my pursuit of brevity. Will try harder.
The point is that the great “Will of the People” rhetoric is bollocks. “The People” had no “will” about Brexit then, and even less so now.
A very slim majority of those who bothered to vote- a majority based overwhelmingly on age, not the “left behind” or any other lame rhetorical device favoured by some- voted for it on the day, and now, on a different day, quite a lot of them have changed their minds, or died. So now we must make the best of something that a minority of a minority think was a great idea.
So no, not, in reality, The Voice Of The People.
I meant votes in referenda not general elections. Sometimes I’m unclear in my pursuit of brevity. Will try harder.
Of course you can’t count non-voters. If you do that then the government would always get re-elected, simply by claiming the 30% of people who didn’t vote “supported the status quo” !!!
You’re just making this up. Truly desperate marketing.
Yet again, the fallacy that people do not change their views as they grow older. I and many others did.
Basic errors. Must do better.
Australia is generally considered an open, democratic, stable society. It’s had 44 nationwide referendums since 1901. Nineteen were about constitutional changes. Indeed, the Constitution can’t be changed without one.
But you’re right. The 2016 Referendum rules for conducting it should have been better thought through. But I wonder if they would have stopped the highly personal insults and belittling of Leavers by some Remainers.
Point 1: the “rules” were written by a remain dominated Parliament and civil service. If they don’t like them, they have only themselves to blame. But they’ll never take responsibility for their own mistakes (or I’ve never seen the slightest recognition of it). I’d have more respect for them if they did.
Point 2: it is quite clear that nothing would have prevented the slurs and insults still being made. Wear it with pride: if you’re taking flak, you’re probably over the target.
Point 3: when Remainers roll out the line that “referendums aren’t the right way to do this (they cause division/don’t work/the people are too stupid/excuse du jour”, I always ask “Well how should the public be consulted on this then ?”. And they never have any answer.
Point 1: the “rules” were written by a remain dominated Parliament and civil service. If they don’t like them, they have only themselves to blame. But they’ll never take responsibility for their own mistakes (or I’ve never seen the slightest recognition of it). I’d have more respect for them if they did.
Point 2: it is quite clear that nothing would have prevented the slurs and insults still being made. Wear it with pride: if you’re taking flak, you’re probably over the target.
Point 3: when Remainers roll out the line that “referendums aren’t the right way to do this (they cause division/don’t work/the people are too stupid/excuse du jour”, I always ask “Well how should the public be consulted on this then ?”. And they never have any answer.
As an archetypal “Plastic Paddy”, how would your theories have worked out in the benighted Republic of Ireland or the “Kerrygold Republic” as we used to know her?
We don’t live in a ‘representative democracy’.
The 2016 referendum result was amply confirmed by the 2019 General Election result. Both of those, national polls, not testing the water of 10,000.
I note what you say, but representative democracy has a weakness of its own, which has for some time now been the subject of increasing disquiet among large numbers of the electorate (notably of the UK and the USA).
That is, political parties do as you say, offer their ideas to the voters over time (rather than in a once-only referendum issue).
But then, once elected, the representatives don’t implement their own prospectus. So in reality it isn’t representative democracy, because it’s just the ‘representatives’ doing what appeals to them.
And the growing narrative about ‘the elites’ is that their preoccupations and values are not at all ‘representative’ (if I can use that term) of what the demos wants.
Problem.
Nailed it. Although I was thinking 66% with all non voters counting as a vote for the status quo. On that basis hardly anyone voted in favour of Leave and a sizeable chunk will be dead by now anyway.
Australia is generally considered an open, democratic, stable society. It’s had 44 nationwide referendums since 1901. Nineteen were about constitutional changes. Indeed, the Constitution can’t be changed without one.
But you’re right. The 2016 Referendum rules for conducting it should have been better thought through. But I wonder if they would have stopped the highly personal insults and belittling of Leavers by some Remainers.
Do you need to bring women’s cervixes into into it?
I was referencing the other, highly topical essay in today’s Unherd. It’s also highly relevant to this issue with regard to Starmer’s ability to think through the fog of current trendy media noise to pursue anything remotely resembling a ‘revolution’, as this piece would have it.
Yet another list of excuses and deflections SM.
Would be more useful to the discourse if you suggested ideas, policies, practically deliverable and fundable, we could do now given where we are.
What we are getting alot of is Brexit supporters disengaging from the challenge we now face. No, you got us here, now start thinking practically how step by step we can make the best of this.
Slogans were never going to be enough.
Please desist from this nonsense. I pointed out to you in another thread that the responsibility of creating and executing government policy belongs to the government and civil service. It is not the responsibility of “Brexit supporters”, nor do they have the legal authority or resources to do so.
If those responsible (government, civil service) are making a pig’s ear of it, please take it up with them and stop trying to pretend the responsibility lies with people who were merely asked their opinion and promised (David Cameron) that the government would execute whatever they chose.
I sincerely hope I don’t need to repeat this yet one more time.
Please desist from this nonsense. I pointed out to you in another thread that the responsibility of creating and executing government policy belongs to the government and civil service. It is not the responsibility of “Brexit supporters”, nor do they have the legal authority or resources to do so.
If those responsible (government, civil service) are making a pig’s ear of it, please take it up with them and stop trying to pretend the responsibility lies with people who were merely asked their opinion and promised (David Cameron) that the government would execute whatever they chose.
I sincerely hope I don’t need to repeat this yet one more time.
Yet another list of excuses and deflections SM.
Would be more useful to the discourse if you suggested ideas, policies, practically deliverable and fundable, we could do now given where we are.
What we are getting alot of is Brexit supporters disengaging from the challenge we now face. No, you got us here, now start thinking practically how step by step we can make the best of this.
Slogans were never going to be enough.
Would you have preferred another word?
If so, which one may I ask?
It is really **** weird that daily discourse is now polluted with describing a gender by people’s body parts. I do resentfully feel the trans activists and pseudo progressives have won a big cultural point on that aspect.
‘They’ have indeed.
‘We’ shall have to fight back!
Fight the good fight, Charlie! You’re a bloody hero!
Fight the good fight, Charlie! You’re a bloody hero!
‘They’ have indeed.
‘We’ shall have to fight back!
It is really **** weird that daily discourse is now polluted with describing a gender by people’s body parts. I do resentfully feel the trans activists and pseudo progressives have won a big cultural point on that aspect.
I was referencing the other, highly topical essay in today’s Unherd. It’s also highly relevant to this issue with regard to Starmer’s ability to think through the fog of current trendy media noise to pursue anything remotely resembling a ‘revolution’, as this piece would have it.
Would you have preferred another word?
If so, which one may I ask?
Certainly.
We’ve had Brexit in Name Only and those of the UniParty now with Ministerial posts aren’t interested in finishing the job.
Then we’ve had the Scandemic and ramped up nonsensical Net Zero with academia, the media and the pollies played like a fiddle by WEF, Gates, Soros, the Nudgers and whatever is pulling Biden’s strings.
All headingfor the cliff edge, pedal to the metal.
You forgot to mention the Woke Brigade!
You forgot to mention the Woke Brigade!
It won’t take long before the spotlight shines on the Labour Party and its internal contradictions, not least the luvvies of North London versus the party’s traditional ‘labourist’ support in the north. Anyone seriously expect Starmer to reconcile their views about the EU without reviving the bitterness of the whole Brexit issue? For sure at this stage Labour might look a refreshing alternative to the Tories but things are relative and to suggest that Labour offers a credible alternative with a government of substance is nonsense. Don’t raise your expectations about Starmer or his party.
Starmer and Labour’s now silenced but extant Second Ref Legion (surprising how these socialists embrace global capitalism’s Single Market triumph so ardently.. but hey ho) are not the main danger. It is the permanent pro EU State and Technocratic & legal clerisy established by Blair and Brown who are. EU laws are still embedded. The precautionary principle and bureaucratism of Brussels lives on in them. All efforts to exploit our faster freedom of actions (Ukraine/Vaccine/Energy) have been sat on and sabotaged by The Unelected, our ruling cliques, not just the post Covid exhaustion and chaos of the battered useless Tory Executive.
Wishful thinking I’m afraid, bordering on the delusional. There are some things in life that cannot be undone. Joining the EU was one of those things.
What is wrong with aligning with the EU? Does absolute sovereignty have any real meaning in a Unipolar world? That train left the station decades ago.
“Does absolute sovereignty have any real meaning in a Unipolar world?”
The dictionary is your friend. Use it.
A. “The dictionary is your friend”
What is it about modern discourse on the internet that makes such daft and tedious cliches so universal, from teenage girls in LA to angry old men in England? Might it be, ironically, the “Unipolar world”?
B. The commenter you’re trying to respond to asked a question; a “dictionary”, even if it were their “friend”, wouldn’t help them to answer it. That’s not what dictionaries do.
A. “The dictionary is your friend”
What is it about modern discourse on the internet that makes such daft and tedious cliches so universal, from teenage girls in LA to angry old men in England? Might it be, ironically, the “Unipolar world”?
B. The commenter you’re trying to respond to asked a question; a “dictionary”, even if it were their “friend”, wouldn’t help them to answer it. That’s not what dictionaries do.
Different communities have different interests and hence it is important that they maintain sovereign control over their affairs. Do I really have to explain that to you?
You can rectify most mistakes. Joining the EU was one of those mistakes. I have less confidence in the long term future of the UK than I would wish, but I have even less confidence in the future of the EU: A ramshackle empire that will collapse under the pressure of the competing interests from which it was cobbled together. European empires have always collapsed (chaotically). Perhaps if you acquainted yourself with the history of Europe you would be aware of this.
“Does absolute sovereignty have any real meaning in a Unipolar world?”
The dictionary is your friend. Use it.
Different communities have different interests and hence it is important that they maintain sovereign control over their affairs. Do I really have to explain that to you?
You can rectify most mistakes. Joining the EU was one of those mistakes. I have less confidence in the long term future of the UK than I would wish, but I have even less confidence in the future of the EU: A ramshackle empire that will collapse under the pressure of the competing interests from which it was cobbled together. European empires have always collapsed (chaotically). Perhaps if you acquainted yourself with the history of Europe you would be aware of this.
Walking away from what was effectively a “Common Market” arrangement we had while in the EU – giving up on a frictionless access to a market of 500 million people and significant opt outs – was bound to deliver the damage we are now suffering, no matter some of it is hidden under the Pandemic and the Ukraine War consequences.
Where I disagree with the author is that if we were to contemplate re-joining – that without a fresh referendum is not feasible and such a referendum cannot be held so soon again – then we would probably find the EU would be happy to accommodate our renewed membership under the previously prevailing terms and opt outs. Even if this gets dressed up as the outer ring that would change the dynamic of our present lack of access to the Common Market (or CU and SM). UK is too big a deal for EU not to make that exception and what better affirmation than that in terms of relevance of the European Union so derided and despised by the Brexiters!
The trouble is the Conservative government and Whitehall are full of die hard remainers working to undermine Brexit by blocking any economic or immigration reforms to make it work.
Correct I think. The signal-to-noise ratio in any current polling is very low and the results really quite volatile.
This idea that Brexit hasn’t been given a chance and needs more time, is all very well. How much more time before we see a single crumb of vindication? The trouble is that as someone once said: in the long run we’re all dead.
Any views you personally dislike are viewed with contempt, as they are “short-term and temporary” views.
Just a mass national speed-wobble everyone sees the light coming from the sunlit uplands, eh?
But if you’re right, and views tend to be “short-term and temporary”, then it supports my view that referendums – on any subject – have no place in a representative democracy.
Referendums are too intrinsically febrile, and too susceptible to troll-farm / mob-capture. A system of representative democracy moves more slowly and any change emanating therefrom will be less socially divisive and longer lasting. That is, if you don’t like something, you need to get out there, form a party, sell your ideas to the electorate and get into government on your manifesto. That takes real commitment and tends to weed out the dilettantes, like Farage (he just forms a company, fails repeatedly to get elected, and institutes social media and PR campaigns, all of which can be achieved merely by money). By contrast, voting in a referendum is no more onerous than voting in a bake-off competition.
Ideally, you’d never have a referendum. They are a crude import from an entirely different system (a plebiscite democracy), and have no place in a representative democracy,
And as Margaret Thatcher (quoting Clement Attlee) noted: “Perhaps the late Lord Attlee was right,” she observed, “when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues.”
Hear, hear. But if the current fashion is to insist on having one of those wretched modern degenerations into governance by panem et circenses, there should at least be a mandatory supermajority (of at least 75%), and there also should be compulsory voting (fine no-show voters via PAYE or in their benefits) to get above (e.g.) a 75% turnout. Absent those conditions, it’s just a recipe for endless division.
Do you need to bring women’s cervixes into into it?
Certainly.
We’ve had Brexit in Name Only and those of the UniParty now with Ministerial posts aren’t interested in finishing the job.
Then we’ve had the Scandemic and ramped up nonsensical Net Zero with academia, the media and the pollies played like a fiddle by WEF, Gates, Soros, the Nudgers and whatever is pulling Biden’s strings.
All headingfor the cliff edge, pedal to the metal.
It won’t take long before the spotlight shines on the Labour Party and its internal contradictions, not least the luvvies of North London versus the party’s traditional ‘labourist’ support in the north. Anyone seriously expect Starmer to reconcile their views about the EU without reviving the bitterness of the whole Brexit issue? For sure at this stage Labour might look a refreshing alternative to the Tories but things are relative and to suggest that Labour offers a credible alternative with a government of substance is nonsense. Don’t raise your expectations about Starmer or his party.
Starmer and Labour’s now silenced but extant Second Ref Legion (surprising how these socialists embrace global capitalism’s Single Market triumph so ardently.. but hey ho) are not the main danger. It is the permanent pro EU State and Technocratic & legal clerisy established by Blair and Brown who are. EU laws are still embedded. The precautionary principle and bureaucratism of Brussels lives on in them. All efforts to exploit our faster freedom of actions (Ukraine/Vaccine/Energy) have been sat on and sabotaged by The Unelected, our ruling cliques, not just the post Covid exhaustion and chaos of the battered useless Tory Executive.
Wishful thinking I’m afraid, bordering on the delusional. There are some things in life that cannot be undone. Joining the EU was one of those things.
What is wrong with aligning with the EU? Does absolute sovereignty have any real meaning in a Unipolar world? That train left the station decades ago.
Walking away from what was effectively a “Common Market” arrangement we had while in the EU – giving up on a frictionless access to a market of 500 million people and significant opt outs – was bound to deliver the damage we are now suffering, no matter some of it is hidden under the Pandemic and the Ukraine War consequences.
Where I disagree with the author is that if we were to contemplate re-joining – that without a fresh referendum is not feasible and such a referendum cannot be held so soon again – then we would probably find the EU would be happy to accommodate our renewed membership under the previously prevailing terms and opt outs. Even if this gets dressed up as the outer ring that would change the dynamic of our present lack of access to the Common Market (or CU and SM). UK is too big a deal for EU not to make that exception and what better affirmation than that in terms of relevance of the European Union so derided and despised by the Brexiters!
The trouble is the Conservative government and Whitehall are full of die hard remainers working to undermine Brexit by blocking any economic or immigration reforms to make it work.
Typically, the author is using short-term and temporary views expressed in polling using stratification that can be notorious for its lack of accuracy (as on the eve of the Brexit vote in 2016) to draw the wrong conclusions.
Might i suggest that those who voted to Leave simply want to see the job completed? Of course, at this still early stage in the Brexit ‘revolution’ the initial extrication process is producing difficulties which skew the public perception; constantly highlighted by the Remain-leaning media and with the Tories off-balance and unable to make sufficient legislative progress
This will change with time. A warning to Labour: try to row back on Brexit at your peril. The EU is showing signs of coming to terms with our departure, for instance the admission by Leo Varadkar that “mistakes had been made” by the EU during negotiations. As wounds heal, a better accommodation can be acheived and the full benefits of Brexit will swing into place. So will the public mood.
If Labour understands this, all well and good, but somehow i suspect arch-Remainer Starmer just doesn’t get it. He doesn’t get it in just the same way he doesn’t get that only women have a cervix. Or at least when asked, he’s not sure, which is even worse.
There really isn’t any good reason why people should regret Brexit other than the ceaseless drip of corporatist propaganda from the overwhelmingly remain dominated media. The EU hasn’t suddenly ceased to be an institutionally anti-democratic technocracy.
The reason most of us are disappointed is simply that Brexit should have been the precursor of a return to accountable government in the UK. However, as we saw with the pandemic, the grip of the Oxbridge mafia responsible for most of this country’s woes is actually stronger than ever.
I fear Brexit will become like communist revolutions. They fail not because the idea of a communist revolution is flawed but because it was not ‘done properly’, or reactionary forces undermined it, or it was not revolutionary enough. And so it goes on.
Except for the simple and obvious fact that for most of Britain’s history, we were an independent nation outside the EU and that worked just fine. Brexit simply restores the status quo ante – which was not fundamentally broken. So the analogy with communism simply doesn’t apply here.
We were still an independent nation in the EU.
Anyway that aside, your historical point has a weakness in that pre EU membership we had operated an imperial preference system for almost 2 centuries. You’ll have noticed that we can no longer revert to that. The idea we just float amongst much bigger trading nations and blocs has not existed for centuries. So your point deliberately underplayed that.
What nonsense, making you lose any credibility – we were not an independent nation within the EU. Everyone knows that, and the Northern Irish protocol breaking up the U.K. proves it.
Remind me again who were the two parties that devised the NI protocol? I know the EU was one.. who was the other?
Btw the NI protocol is the best thing that ever hit NI.. check the growth of NI since the inception vs its pitiful growth before. Then check it against GB growth. Being in the Single Market as well as the UK has done wonders for NI. Only DUP dodos are upset by the NI protocol!
Remind me again who were the two parties that devised the NI protocol? I know the EU was one.. who was the other?
Btw the NI protocol is the best thing that ever hit NI.. check the growth of NI since the inception vs its pitiful growth before. Then check it against GB growth. Being in the Single Market as well as the UK has done wonders for NI. Only DUP dodos are upset by the NI protocol!
In what way were we ‘still an independent nation in the EU’? A steadily growing numbers of our laws and regulations were being made by people we didn’t elect and couldn’t get rid of.
The most striking thing about the entire Brexit debate is how little anyone – and particularly the average remainer – knows about the workings of the EU.
In exactly the same way the other 26 are. Pooling sovereignty on some things doesn’t make you not independent. You’ve chosen to do that and you have a say in the conclusions. We also had lots of veto exemptions.
Compromise occasionally rattles some, but we’ll get that in any international deal as we’ve found.
I suspect actually the folks who didn’t really understand the EU and how it worked are more on the Leave side (albeit many did not know the detail in truth on all sides). The fact we are in such muddle proves the point.
We didn’t ‘pool’ sovereignty in the EU, we surrendered it. Read the Maastricht Treaty. Those twenty seven bureaucrats were not accountable to us even as citizens of the wider entity. I expect you still think that the Commissioners are appointed by national governments. They’re not. They’re not accountable to the EU’s Potemkin parliament either.
The EU was created by men who believed that the the imposition of ‘Anglo Saxon democracy’ on Europe in the wake of WWII should be overturned and that government should be solely the province of ‘experts’, and designed the institutions to facilitate that.
“They” have never forgiven us for allowing Napoleon’s p***s to to sliced off and stolen during his post-mortem on Saint Helena in 1821.
Presumably written by a white man who thinks himself anglosaxon and educated?? Shame.
“They” have never forgiven us for allowing Napoleon’s p***s to to sliced off and stolen during his post-mortem on Saint Helena in 1821.
Presumably written by a white man who thinks himself anglosaxon and educated?? Shame.
Precisely, we had an alignment of paperwork to facilitate free movement of trade and services and personal opportunities. We voted for that. Everybody has to live within some rules or another. Falsely placed ego has no room in intelligent policies.
We didn’t ‘pool’ sovereignty in the EU, we surrendered it. Read the Maastricht Treaty. Those twenty seven bureaucrats were not accountable to us even as citizens of the wider entity. I expect you still think that the Commissioners are appointed by national governments. They’re not. They’re not accountable to the EU’s Potemkin parliament either.
The EU was created by men who believed that the the imposition of ‘Anglo Saxon democracy’ on Europe in the wake of WWII should be overturned and that government should be solely the province of ‘experts’, and designed the institutions to facilitate that.
Precisely, we had an alignment of paperwork to facilitate free movement of trade and services and personal opportunities. We voted for that. Everybody has to live within some rules or another. Falsely placed ego has no room in intelligent policies.
That is absolute nonsense. Every post in the EU is elected every committee and even the leader and if you didn’t vote that is your fault. However here you are condescending given a cross in a box every 5 years for people you can’t get rid of. The EU cared about us, and supported us and brought us from a post war wreck. Our politicians didn’t. Even poor Romania had to pay for us.
Indeed. It’s such a mess I can only resort to comedy. I think of Python’s ‘what did the Romans ever do for us’ sketch. As is said of staid accountants, leavers know the cost of everything and the value of little, prefer rhetoric to reality. All they’ve got in the face of the almost universal criticism of Brexit – in business, academia, politics, medicine, education, unions, internationally and nationally – now joined by farmers, fishermen and the population – are shallow slogans, ‘we’ve taken back control’, ‘it’ll work in the end’, and the non apology, ‘we didn’t get the Brexit we wanted’ (even though, as Danny Dyer put it, Brexit is a riddle within a riddle – there was never any clear sense of the details of what it would involve, just a fantasy team of wishful thoughts.
The comedy scene I’m often reminded of when I jump into the comments here is Jimmy showing Reggie Perrin his stash off rifles, ready to be used in “the fight for Britain, when the balloon goes up”. Rapists, papists, fascists, NEO fascists, CRYPTO fascists… anyway, it’s on YouTube, obviously.
Beautiful! They heyday of British comedy is sorely missed, and we are all worse of for it.
Beautiful! They heyday of British comedy is sorely missed, and we are all worse of for it.
The comedy scene I’m often reminded of when I jump into the comments here is Jimmy showing Reggie Perrin his stash off rifles, ready to be used in “the fight for Britain, when the balloon goes up”. Rapists, papists, fascists, NEO fascists, CRYPTO fascists… anyway, it’s on YouTube, obviously.
Indeed. It’s such a mess I can only resort to comedy. I think of Python’s ‘what did the Romans ever do for us’ sketch. As is said of staid accountants, leavers know the cost of everything and the value of little, prefer rhetoric to reality. All they’ve got in the face of the almost universal criticism of Brexit – in business, academia, politics, medicine, education, unions, internationally and nationally – now joined by farmers, fishermen and the population – are shallow slogans, ‘we’ve taken back control’, ‘it’ll work in the end’, and the non apology, ‘we didn’t get the Brexit we wanted’ (even though, as Danny Dyer put it, Brexit is a riddle within a riddle – there was never any clear sense of the details of what it would involve, just a fantasy team of wishful thoughts.
In exactly the same way the other 26 are. Pooling sovereignty on some things doesn’t make you not independent. You’ve chosen to do that and you have a say in the conclusions. We also had lots of veto exemptions.
Compromise occasionally rattles some, but we’ll get that in any international deal as we’ve found.
I suspect actually the folks who didn’t really understand the EU and how it worked are more on the Leave side (albeit many did not know the detail in truth on all sides). The fact we are in such muddle proves the point.
That is absolute nonsense. Every post in the EU is elected every committee and even the leader and if you didn’t vote that is your fault. However here you are condescending given a cross in a box every 5 years for people you can’t get rid of. The EU cared about us, and supported us and brought us from a post war wreck. Our politicians didn’t. Even poor Romania had to pay for us.
I said nothing at all about our trading relationships in my comment.
In any case, I dispute your claim that we had “an imperial preference system for almosty 2 centuries”. Not to any significant extent. Recall the “tariff reform” debate of the early 1900s which resulted in a massive Conservative defeat. One again (as with the repeal of the Corn Laws in 1846), Britain chose free trade over protectionism. And explicitly free trade over “imperial preference”.
In 1972, however, it seems we chose higher food prices over free trade for the first time since the introduction of the Corn Laws.
So I dispute your claim. Free trade is arguably in Britain’s DNA. Far more so than the EU’s.
So thanks for bringing up this point. It really does need repeating that Britain is inherently a far more globally oriented, free-trading country than the EU bureaucracy. And gaining the benefits of competitive trading and pricing over protecting the interests of producers.
So free trade is now a scientific DNA trait!! Despite the Norman’s et al. We stole from the empire, we no longer can. Update yourself. We need easy, beneficial. Peaceful agreements all 28 sides agree to. Its not rocket science.
So free trade is now a scientific DNA trait!! Despite the Norman’s et al. We stole from the empire, we no longer can. Update yourself. We need easy, beneficial. Peaceful agreements all 28 sides agree to. Its not rocket science.
What nonsense, making you lose any credibility – we were not an independent nation within the EU. Everyone knows that, and the Northern Irish protocol breaking up the U.K. proves it.
In what way were we ‘still an independent nation in the EU’? A steadily growing numbers of our laws and regulations were being made by people we didn’t elect and couldn’t get rid of.
The most striking thing about the entire Brexit debate is how little anyone – and particularly the average remainer – knows about the workings of the EU.
I said nothing at all about our trading relationships in my comment.
In any case, I dispute your claim that we had “an imperial preference system for almosty 2 centuries”. Not to any significant extent. Recall the “tariff reform” debate of the early 1900s which resulted in a massive Conservative defeat. One again (as with the repeal of the Corn Laws in 1846), Britain chose free trade over protectionism. And explicitly free trade over “imperial preference”.
In 1972, however, it seems we chose higher food prices over free trade for the first time since the introduction of the Corn Laws.
So I dispute your claim. Free trade is arguably in Britain’s DNA. Far more so than the EU’s.
So thanks for bringing up this point. It really does need repeating that Britain is inherently a far more globally oriented, free-trading country than the EU bureaucracy. And gaining the benefits of competitive trading and pricing over protecting the interests of producers.
You forget the peace the EU brought. GB like most other European nations wasn’t “just fine” for the 100s of years before EU membership, it was mired in war and bloodshed. You may have forgotten about WW1 and WW2 to mention just two have you?
We were still an independent nation in the EU.
Anyway that aside, your historical point has a weakness in that pre EU membership we had operated an imperial preference system for almost 2 centuries. You’ll have noticed that we can no longer revert to that. The idea we just float amongst much bigger trading nations and blocs has not existed for centuries. So your point deliberately underplayed that.
You forget the peace the EU brought. GB like most other European nations wasn’t “just fine” for the 100s of years before EU membership, it was mired in war and bloodshed. You may have forgotten about WW1 and WW2 to mention just two have you?
Yep, it’s the same psychological flaw. It’ll never entirely go away for some. Too much personal identity baked into it.
The EU gave us the greatest freedoms, opportunities and aid since a Roman had in the Roman Empire
Except for the simple and obvious fact that for most of Britain’s history, we were an independent nation outside the EU and that worked just fine. Brexit simply restores the status quo ante – which was not fundamentally broken. So the analogy with communism simply doesn’t apply here.
Yep, it’s the same psychological flaw. It’ll never entirely go away for some. Too much personal identity baked into it.
The EU gave us the greatest freedoms, opportunities and aid since a Roman had in the Roman Empire
I suspect you don’t run a SME that trades with European partners much HB?
Or an industry with a labour shortage and no national plan to address that?
Or a Border force employee dealing with channel crossings knowing we can’t send them back to France as we’ll pulled out of the Dublin agreement?
Or even the fella now queuing for ages at Passport control?
We could go on, and on.
… and no doubt you will. As it happens my largest client is a French company based in Paris. Working on and off in France was what convinced me that we needed to leave the EU.
*nods in approval at the pricking of false assumptions*
*nods in approval at the pricking of false assumptions*
Yeah, but erm… sovereignty!!
… and no doubt you will. As it happens my largest client is a French company based in Paris. Working on and off in France was what convinced me that we needed to leave the EU.
Yeah, but erm… sovereignty!!
Thankfully Brexit won the vote and we got out, never to return. This article fails to reference the fact that the EU is always in short term economic crisis because of the Euro and long term trade decline as the rest of the world improves its productivity – soon the rest of the world will be dictating to the EU what trade terms and standards should be, and it’ll disappear into irrelevance.
Wishful thinking I suspect. Although keep the phraseology as it’ll apply to us.
As I pointed out to you in a reply on another thread, this has already happened in many areas. Specifically my own area of semiconductors and technology.
As I pointed out to you in a reply on another thread, this has already happened in many areas. Specifically my own area of semiconductors and technology.
The euro is one of the world’s strongest currencies. It is costing us a fortune to trade or buy. If we had joined the euro we would be 19% better off but the shiny arse brigade in London want to hold us to ransome changing our money.
Perhaps the Remainers should console themselves with the EU’s own self destruction
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-eu-covid-19-european-fund-appetite-for-borrowing-is-a-slippery-slope/
Wishful thinking I suspect. Although keep the phraseology as it’ll apply to us.
The euro is one of the world’s strongest currencies. It is costing us a fortune to trade or buy. If we had joined the euro we would be 19% better off but the shiny arse brigade in London want to hold us to ransome changing our money.
Perhaps the Remainers should console themselves with the EU’s own self destruction
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-eu-covid-19-european-fund-appetite-for-borrowing-is-a-slippery-slope/
Just the best comment I have read on here today.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I regret Brexit because it has ruined the happiness of my house, stopped me even taking my dogs to NIreland due yo health certificate fees of £500, stopped my retirement in the sunny, friendly, well run EU and cost me a fortune for goods that have made it to the depleted store shelves, and ruined the value of the pound down 19%. We have also lost billions in aid from the EU while our corrupt politician line their pockets and buy EU passports. Voters need to wise up. Is that enough reality to be going on with?
I fear Brexit will become like communist revolutions. They fail not because the idea of a communist revolution is flawed but because it was not ‘done properly’, or reactionary forces undermined it, or it was not revolutionary enough. And so it goes on.
I suspect you don’t run a SME that trades with European partners much HB?
Or an industry with a labour shortage and no national plan to address that?
Or a Border force employee dealing with channel crossings knowing we can’t send them back to France as we’ll pulled out of the Dublin agreement?
Or even the fella now queuing for ages at Passport control?
We could go on, and on.
Thankfully Brexit won the vote and we got out, never to return. This article fails to reference the fact that the EU is always in short term economic crisis because of the Euro and long term trade decline as the rest of the world improves its productivity – soon the rest of the world will be dictating to the EU what trade terms and standards should be, and it’ll disappear into irrelevance.
Just the best comment I have read on here today.
I regret Brexit because it has ruined the happiness of my house, stopped me even taking my dogs to NIreland due yo health certificate fees of £500, stopped my retirement in the sunny, friendly, well run EU and cost me a fortune for goods that have made it to the depleted store shelves, and ruined the value of the pound down 19%. We have also lost billions in aid from the EU while our corrupt politician line their pockets and buy EU passports. Voters need to wise up. Is that enough reality to be going on with?
There really isn’t any good reason why people should regret Brexit other than the ceaseless drip of corporatist propaganda from the overwhelmingly remain dominated media. The EU hasn’t suddenly ceased to be an institutionally anti-democratic technocracy.
The reason most of us are disappointed is simply that Brexit should have been the precursor of a return to accountable government in the UK. However, as we saw with the pandemic, the grip of the Oxbridge mafia responsible for most of this country’s woes is actually stronger than ever.
“The truth is, the Tory party lost its grip on the revolution — and is now paying the price.”
To be fair to them, most Tory MPs didn’t believe in the revolution in the first place. The were railroaded into pretending that they did.
they werent railroaded. they wholeheartedly pretended they agreed in order to get selected and then elected as MPs. you cant then find it anything other than hilarious that they were hoisted from their own lying, hypocritical petards.
Anyone spineless enough to be “railroaded” doesn’t deserve to be an MP and I suggest we’re better off without them.
Anyone spineless enough to be “railroaded” doesn’t deserve to be an MP and I suggest we’re better off without them.
they werent railroaded. they wholeheartedly pretended they agreed in order to get selected and then elected as MPs. you cant then find it anything other than hilarious that they were hoisted from their own lying, hypocritical petards.
“The truth is, the Tory party lost its grip on the revolution — and is now paying the price.”
To be fair to them, most Tory MPs didn’t believe in the revolution in the first place. The were railroaded into pretending that they did.
These polls reflect ugly truths. The BBC and Remainiacs who dominate the State and the Health Industrial Complex used the Covid lockdowns to help impede and destroy the brand new Brexit State. The BBC and MSM induced the national hysteria which forced a hapless kamikaze Johnson administration into unprepared lockdown in March 2020. There was panic then. But two years later it was very clear that Brex derangement was a silent pyschological driver and factor for the vast armies of pro lockdown fanatics within an NHS First State, suffocating all economic activity, experimenting with the money tree, locking us up for 2 years in our homes. Free speech was suppressed. Two Year hard Lockdown is the reason for crippling inflation, the warped labour market and many of our economic woes. But ALL political classes, the NHS and the public sector plus the complicit cynical media deny this truth. They are telling the public that it is Brexit – which has not even started – which is the cause. A cost of living not a cost of lockdown crisis, note. And it works, as no one in authority can ever break the consensus. They – Tories too – will never acknowledge this criminal failure, especially now we can identify the consequences; a non functioning wfh public sector, broken NHS and ruined State finances. So the big lie goes on. The game is over. And we can see who has won.
Perfectly put Sir!
Why do you call people who voted to remain in the EU ‘remainiacs’? It was and is a perfectly sane position. And the idea that all our present problems are due to lockdowns seems a little implausible to say the least. Other similar countries who had lockdowns (some even more severe) are not quite in the parlous state the UK finds itself in. And there certainly is good evidence that Brexit has contributed to our economic woes, note I am not claiming it is the only cause.
Because you state blatant untruths like saying the U.K. was an independent nation within the EU.
That’s a pretty big sign of losing one’s marbles – and it’s why you lost the vote, because you wouldn’t acknowledge truism such as this – telling people the emperor’s clothes were lovely. If you’d been honest, or sane in your interpretations, you might have won it.
I never said we were completely independent in the EU. You are not completely independent in a marriage but marriage on the whole is a good state to be in.
If the U.K. was not an indepenant state within the EU, how did we manage to leave on a UK referendum? Did I miss the War of Independence? When did that happen?
It’s not a “truism”, it’s merely a piece of self-contradictory rhetoric.
Nonsense. Illegal and untrue one sided bombardment propaganda to an ignorant and bored public won it in combination with a hopeless government
I never said we were completely independent in the EU. You are not completely independent in a marriage but marriage on the whole is a good state to be in.
If the U.K. was not an indepenant state within the EU, how did we manage to leave on a UK referendum? Did I miss the War of Independence? When did that happen?
It’s not a “truism”, it’s merely a piece of self-contradictory rhetoric.
Nonsense. Illegal and untrue one sided bombardment propaganda to an ignorant and bored public won it in combination with a hopeless government
I did not Martin. By Remainiacs I refer to those who became deranged during the civil war which broke out with the referendum and who refused to accept the result. Remainiacs then devoted themselves – in a way that would make Trump blanche – to a second referendum and to overturning our democracy, sullying forever Parliament politics and British ‘justice’. I of course respect the many Remainers who accepted the vote. But Remania is different; a very hateful arrogant mental derangement which exists within in our corrupted Leftist EU State, all of our shallow political parties and the legions of greedy over entitled untaxed London/SE property ‘millionaires’ desperate to preserve a grotesque anti meritocratic status quo that enriched them. The madness of it all is illustrated by this article. Starmer? Mister Second Referendum? He will now prosper from the do nothing sabotage campaign by his pals Scholar and our openly politicised Brownite State??
Do you make me laugh or cry? What planet are you on? How much have you made from Brexit? Give it to our trillions of brexit debt.
Do you make me laugh or cry? What planet are you on? How much have you made from Brexit? Give it to our trillions of brexit debt.
I was a borderline Brexit voter so don’t get as excited as some. The democracy argument won me over. I did expect the economy to do badly at least initially. In fact looking at comparative overall GDP figures and trade figures, it hasn’t been anywhere near as bad as I expected, so I am not sure why everyone keeps saying it has.
Maybe that will change in the future, but not doing stupid things like locking down and closing gas storage facilities seems more important at the moment.
A voice of moderation and sanity. Well done.
The EU is the most democratic place on earth. It was the emotional response to a lie that got you. You will have to wait to put another cross in a box decided by 1 man in Downing Street.
A voice of moderation and sanity. Well done.
The EU is the most democratic place on earth. It was the emotional response to a lie that got you. You will have to wait to put another cross in a box decided by 1 man in Downing Street.
“Other similar countries who had lockdowns (some even more severe) are not quite in the parlous state the UK finds itself in”
France is in much worse shape than we are. Bigger debt, totally unsustainable deficit, angry population. Germany only continues to appear to be solvent because the Bundesbank keeps e2 trillion of bad debts on the credit side of its balance sheet. Don’t rely on the BBC or the corporate media to tell you what’s going on unless it supports their narrative.
Don’t believe your own myths
I love going from one ranty blogsite to another, and reading such furiously certain outrage that the BBC is responsible for everything- they are fascistic Brexit fanatics who lied to the innocent British public to enable the evil`Leave vote, or they are Communist anti-Brexit fanatics who are lying to the British people to make them regret the People’s Revolution.
The most amusing thing is to mention ‘the other side’ to each ranter- The ‘Remainiacs’ will call me a dupe and a fascist lacky, and the ranting ‘Brexiteers’ will call me a Communist ‘metropolitan’ person of questionable ethnic heritage. What unites both is their visceral hatred of the BBC, and the absolute ‘knowledge’ that his one TV broadcaster represents everything they despise.
Are they both right, or they they both deluded morons looking for a simple-minded answer to a complex question- who can say?
Don’t believe your own myths
I love going from one ranty blogsite to another, and reading such furiously certain outrage that the BBC is responsible for everything- they are fascistic Brexit fanatics who lied to the innocent British public to enable the evil`Leave vote, or they are Communist anti-Brexit fanatics who are lying to the British people to make them regret the People’s Revolution.
The most amusing thing is to mention ‘the other side’ to each ranter- The ‘Remainiacs’ will call me a dupe and a fascist lacky, and the ranting ‘Brexiteers’ will call me a Communist ‘metropolitan’ person of questionable ethnic heritage. What unites both is their visceral hatred of the BBC, and the absolute ‘knowledge’ that his one TV broadcaster represents everything they despise.
Are they both right, or they they both deluded morons looking for a simple-minded answer to a complex question- who can say?
Good answer, we are 4% down in trade due solely to Brexit. Not to mention our rights to live and work and marry abroad. But an Indian continent front bench doesn’t care about us.
An “Indian continent front bench”?
The PM was born in England to parents who migrated from Kenya, as was the Home Secretary. I don’t know of any members of the front bench who are Indian- do you?
An “Indian continent front bench”?
The PM was born in England to parents who migrated from Kenya, as was the Home Secretary. I don’t know of any members of the front bench who are Indian- do you?
Because you state blatant untruths like saying the U.K. was an independent nation within the EU.
That’s a pretty big sign of losing one’s marbles – and it’s why you lost the vote, because you wouldn’t acknowledge truism such as this – telling people the emperor’s clothes were lovely. If you’d been honest, or sane in your interpretations, you might have won it.
I did not Martin. By Remainiacs I refer to those who became deranged during the civil war which broke out with the referendum and who refused to accept the result. Remainiacs then devoted themselves – in a way that would make Trump blanche – to a second referendum and to overturning our democracy, sullying forever Parliament politics and British ‘justice’. I of course respect the many Remainers who accepted the vote. But Remania is different; a very hateful arrogant mental derangement which exists within in our corrupted Leftist EU State, all of our shallow political parties and the legions of greedy over entitled untaxed London/SE property ‘millionaires’ desperate to preserve a grotesque anti meritocratic status quo that enriched them. The madness of it all is illustrated by this article. Starmer? Mister Second Referendum? He will now prosper from the do nothing sabotage campaign by his pals Scholar and our openly politicised Brownite State??
I was a borderline Brexit voter so don’t get as excited as some. The democracy argument won me over. I did expect the economy to do badly at least initially. In fact looking at comparative overall GDP figures and trade figures, it hasn’t been anywhere near as bad as I expected, so I am not sure why everyone keeps saying it has.
Maybe that will change in the future, but not doing stupid things like locking down and closing gas storage facilities seems more important at the moment.
“Other similar countries who had lockdowns (some even more severe) are not quite in the parlous state the UK finds itself in”
France is in much worse shape than we are. Bigger debt, totally unsustainable deficit, angry population. Germany only continues to appear to be solvent because the Bundesbank keeps e2 trillion of bad debts on the credit side of its balance sheet. Don’t rely on the BBC or the corporate media to tell you what’s going on unless it supports their narrative.
Good answer, we are 4% down in trade due solely to Brexit. Not to mention our rights to live and work and marry abroad. But an Indian continent front bench doesn’t care about us.
Walter.. you’re a marvel
Perfectly put Sir!
Why do you call people who voted to remain in the EU ‘remainiacs’? It was and is a perfectly sane position. And the idea that all our present problems are due to lockdowns seems a little implausible to say the least. Other similar countries who had lockdowns (some even more severe) are not quite in the parlous state the UK finds itself in. And there certainly is good evidence that Brexit has contributed to our economic woes, note I am not claiming it is the only cause.
Walter.. you’re a marvel
These polls reflect ugly truths. The BBC and Remainiacs who dominate the State and the Health Industrial Complex used the Covid lockdowns to help impede and destroy the brand new Brexit State. The BBC and MSM induced the national hysteria which forced a hapless kamikaze Johnson administration into unprepared lockdown in March 2020. There was panic then. But two years later it was very clear that Brex derangement was a silent pyschological driver and factor for the vast armies of pro lockdown fanatics within an NHS First State, suffocating all economic activity, experimenting with the money tree, locking us up for 2 years in our homes. Free speech was suppressed. Two Year hard Lockdown is the reason for crippling inflation, the warped labour market and many of our economic woes. But ALL political classes, the NHS and the public sector plus the complicit cynical media deny this truth. They are telling the public that it is Brexit – which has not even started – which is the cause. A cost of living not a cost of lockdown crisis, note. And it works, as no one in authority can ever break the consensus. They – Tories too – will never acknowledge this criminal failure, especially now we can identify the consequences; a non functioning wfh public sector, broken NHS and ruined State finances. So the big lie goes on. The game is over. And we can see who has won.
Strange business this Brexit debate.
Yesterday I was talking to two guys over for the weekend from Holland. They had a rant about Brexit and how bad it is – for The UK – citing as their main plank of evidence ”you have had 3 Prime Ministers in 6 months!” – and why would that have been different if we were still an EU member? I asked. There was no cohrerent reply, more verbal shuffling of feet.
EU Bribes:
I reminded them about EU Officials taking bribes (millions in bribes) from Qatar etc., and their own PM resigned in disgrace 12 months ago – and then popped up once more as PM a few months later (So no lecture please from Holland or anywhere else, about politics).
GDP:
They moved onto GDP and recession etc., I pointed out that UK and Germany had roughly the same increase in GDP since 2016 – which took them by surprise. Ireland, of coruse, is the capital of legalised money laundering for Big Tech – so their GDP doesnt really count. In real terms Irelands actual GDP removing the ML trade is about the size of Manchester.
Trade:
So they marched onto trade deals – citing ”well the Australia trade deal only account for X% of UK trade” (whatever it is) – and I mentioend, ”you may be right there I dont have the info to hand – but at least The UK does have an Auzzie trade deal – whilst for 25 years The EU has been negotiating one and still does not have one. also Trade deals can always be renegotiated/reworked.
Polling:
With these polls – it all depends upon the question asked. My Guru for reliability is Prof Sir John C – who usually does an amazing hire-wire act to stay neutral with neutural questions and interpretations.
It may be there is a marginal swing in favour of joining I dont know – but there was in 2016 and then debates started and people changed their mind for DEMOCRACY – quite aside from Trade.
Oh. I forgot to mention UK growth being the same as Germany – DESPITE every EU Politician predicting an immediate economic catastrophe.
To think they could all right now be speaking German.
Dear me. Do you believe this. Even the farming minister resigned saying it was rubbish.
Oh. I forgot to mention UK growth being the same as Germany – DESPITE every EU Politician predicting an immediate economic catastrophe.
To think they could all right now be speaking German.
Dear me. Do you believe this. Even the farming minister resigned saying it was rubbish.
Strange business this Brexit debate.
Yesterday I was talking to two guys over for the weekend from Holland. They had a rant about Brexit and how bad it is – for The UK – citing as their main plank of evidence ”you have had 3 Prime Ministers in 6 months!” – and why would that have been different if we were still an EU member? I asked. There was no cohrerent reply, more verbal shuffling of feet.
EU Bribes:
I reminded them about EU Officials taking bribes (millions in bribes) from Qatar etc., and their own PM resigned in disgrace 12 months ago – and then popped up once more as PM a few months later (So no lecture please from Holland or anywhere else, about politics).
GDP:
They moved onto GDP and recession etc., I pointed out that UK and Germany had roughly the same increase in GDP since 2016 – which took them by surprise. Ireland, of coruse, is the capital of legalised money laundering for Big Tech – so their GDP doesnt really count. In real terms Irelands actual GDP removing the ML trade is about the size of Manchester.
Trade:
So they marched onto trade deals – citing ”well the Australia trade deal only account for X% of UK trade” (whatever it is) – and I mentioend, ”you may be right there I dont have the info to hand – but at least The UK does have an Auzzie trade deal – whilst for 25 years The EU has been negotiating one and still does not have one. also Trade deals can always be renegotiated/reworked.
Polling:
With these polls – it all depends upon the question asked. My Guru for reliability is Prof Sir John C – who usually does an amazing hire-wire act to stay neutral with neutural questions and interpretations.
It may be there is a marginal swing in favour of joining I dont know – but there was in 2016 and then debates started and people changed their mind for DEMOCRACY – quite aside from Trade.
I don’t see this country ever re-joining the EU. There is no way we will get back the opt-outs and such that we had as members (we may get Schengen if we’re lucky on account of geography), so there will be no rebate and we will have to join the Euro. On that note, I doubt the EU member states would let us in anyway unless we gave a firm commitment to sign up to the Euro within a period spanning no longer than 5 years after joining. They’ll (especially leaders like Macron) will want to make sure the UK is on a very short leash so we don’t get fed up after 5-10 years and pull the same stunt we did in 2016.
By that point, it will be too late. We will be signing up in the future to collective policies on defence, health, education, welfare etc which will be decided in Brussels and our economy will be controlled from Frankfurt. Eventually this will culminate in a federal European state where even our nationality is eventually taken from us. Sorry, but if the price of avoiding is more trade barriers and forms for businesses to fill out, I know what I’m choosing. I’m open to a customs arrangement with the EU where we get a seat at the table and vote on new trade deals as well as amending them, but I doubt that even if we pay into the budget, that they will give us this. Until then, I can’t ever advocate re-joining and will campaign fiercely against it.
In terms of the future of this debate, that’s as good a description as i’ve read.
Those harbouring any notions of returning to the EU fold should take note.
Scotland! It will come.
No one seriously believes we can rejoin, not even me. But we do need full access to the single market. Didn’t The Bloviator claim there was no question of us ever leaving it?
Scotland! It will come.
No one seriously believes we can rejoin, not even me. But we do need full access to the single market. Didn’t The Bloviator claim there was no question of us ever leaving it?
Why don’t you understand Brussels (and Strasbourg) is just a place. We were a full part of making those rules and often messed them up on behalf of the US against Europe’s interest.
In terms of the future of this debate, that’s as good a description as i’ve read.
Those harbouring any notions of returning to the EU fold should take note.
Why don’t you understand Brussels (and Strasbourg) is just a place. We were a full part of making those rules and often messed them up on behalf of the US against Europe’s interest.
I don’t see this country ever re-joining the EU. There is no way we will get back the opt-outs and such that we had as members (we may get Schengen if we’re lucky on account of geography), so there will be no rebate and we will have to join the Euro. On that note, I doubt the EU member states would let us in anyway unless we gave a firm commitment to sign up to the Euro within a period spanning no longer than 5 years after joining. They’ll (especially leaders like Macron) will want to make sure the UK is on a very short leash so we don’t get fed up after 5-10 years and pull the same stunt we did in 2016.
By that point, it will be too late. We will be signing up in the future to collective policies on defence, health, education, welfare etc which will be decided in Brussels and our economy will be controlled from Frankfurt. Eventually this will culminate in a federal European state where even our nationality is eventually taken from us. Sorry, but if the price of avoiding is more trade barriers and forms for businesses to fill out, I know what I’m choosing. I’m open to a customs arrangement with the EU where we get a seat at the table and vote on new trade deals as well as amending them, but I doubt that even if we pay into the budget, that they will give us this. Until then, I can’t ever advocate re-joining and will campaign fiercely against it.
The problem is not that Brexit itself was a bad idea and that only now people are realising this…..the issue is that we have had such a shower of ejits running things since, that they have somehow contrived to give us the worst of both worlds – having made no effort to build on the undeniable opportunities for reform and self sufficiency that could have made things so different……Surely no one who voted leave thinks its a good thing to be ruled by Brussels, and become part of the European superstate. For me personally, that was what Brexit was all about…get out of their clutches, (they do NOT have our interests at heart and just want our money) and start making decisons that benefit this country. The manifest failure of the government to do ANYTHING AT ALL about the channel crossings ( as well as other immigration numbers) is just staggering and the icing on the cake…. And make no mistake the huge increase in our population from immigrants not creating a net benefit is what will destroy this country over the next few decades…….
You are ruled by HM. Or 1 man in Downing St. We aligned paperwork and standards and rebuilt our country on it with freedom of movement. Despite spite government in UK. Now we are trapped in a mess pretending if we look the other way it hasn’t happened and can’t be redone.
You are ruled by HM. Or 1 man in Downing St. We aligned paperwork and standards and rebuilt our country on it with freedom of movement. Despite spite government in UK. Now we are trapped in a mess pretending if we look the other way it hasn’t happened and can’t be redone.
The problem is not that Brexit itself was a bad idea and that only now people are realising this…..the issue is that we have had such a shower of ejits running things since, that they have somehow contrived to give us the worst of both worlds – having made no effort to build on the undeniable opportunities for reform and self sufficiency that could have made things so different……Surely no one who voted leave thinks its a good thing to be ruled by Brussels, and become part of the European superstate. For me personally, that was what Brexit was all about…get out of their clutches, (they do NOT have our interests at heart and just want our money) and start making decisons that benefit this country. The manifest failure of the government to do ANYTHING AT ALL about the channel crossings ( as well as other immigration numbers) is just staggering and the icing on the cake…. And make no mistake the huge increase in our population from immigrants not creating a net benefit is what will destroy this country over the next few decades…….
Another predictable article by the mainstream media which they are currently running with to coincide with the three year anniversary. It makes a headline and a column but beyond that is about as relevant as Bonnie Prince Harry’s claim to the British throne.
Quite right
So this small blogsite is “mainstream media” ( but the Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun are what? Little operations bravely publishing from their garages using an old, hand-cranked printing press?
Right. Don’t, for God’s sake, let reality intrude in a ‘personal narrative’, or a lazy US cliche..
Quite right
So this small blogsite is “mainstream media” ( but the Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun are what? Little operations bravely publishing from their garages using an old, hand-cranked printing press?
Right. Don’t, for God’s sake, let reality intrude in a ‘personal narrative’, or a lazy US cliche..
Another predictable article by the mainstream media which they are currently running with to coincide with the three year anniversary. It makes a headline and a column but beyond that is about as relevant as Bonnie Prince Harry’s claim to the British throne.
Labour is the party of Rejoin. Any “attempt” to make Brexit work will be deliberately botched.
Labour is the party of Rejoin. Any “attempt” to make Brexit work will be deliberately botched.
It also surprised me that – aparently intelligent people – (proving otherwise in fact) will call the main photo above (union Flag waving) Xenophobic and racist – and yet sing from the rooftops when they see EU Waving flag bearers maurauding all over the place.
I am guessing quite a lot of people in The EU would also have similar thoughts – almost certainly that fool Verhofstat.
Have you seen how many EU Flags there are in Brussels and around their Parliement – for instance?
Talk about hypocrites.
Because one flag is a symbol of pride in one’s own nation, and an EU flag is a symbol of pride in a collective of nations; and NB, the definition of xenophobia is a fear of other nations….. Choose your enemies carefully, as they will define you – if your enemy is the kind of t*t that thinks flag waving ipso facto evidence of xenophobia ….then you should ignore them rather than respond to them, or else you may become a mirror t*t.
I dont disagree but many people do make that exact and contradictory observation visa viz Union flag and EU flag.
I dont disagree but many people do make that exact and contradictory observation visa viz Union flag and EU flag.
Verhofstadt is no fool. What job have you achieved?
A quite brilliant observation, based on the idea that the specifics of history and symbolism are both entirely beyond all human understanding, that one flag is exactly the same as any other flag, and context and nuance are an alien invention from a future civilisation.
As someone said on this site the other day, “why do women think they need feminism, when men don’t want manism?” It’s the subtlety of thought that makes this comment site so good.
Because one flag is a symbol of pride in one’s own nation, and an EU flag is a symbol of pride in a collective of nations; and NB, the definition of xenophobia is a fear of other nations….. Choose your enemies carefully, as they will define you – if your enemy is the kind of t*t that thinks flag waving ipso facto evidence of xenophobia ….then you should ignore them rather than respond to them, or else you may become a mirror t*t.
Verhofstadt is no fool. What job have you achieved?
A quite brilliant observation, based on the idea that the specifics of history and symbolism are both entirely beyond all human understanding, that one flag is exactly the same as any other flag, and context and nuance are an alien invention from a future civilisation.
As someone said on this site the other day, “why do women think they need feminism, when men don’t want manism?” It’s the subtlety of thought that makes this comment site so good.
It also surprised me that – aparently intelligent people – (proving otherwise in fact) will call the main photo above (union Flag waving) Xenophobic and racist – and yet sing from the rooftops when they see EU Waving flag bearers maurauding all over the place.
I am guessing quite a lot of people in The EU would also have similar thoughts – almost certainly that fool Verhofstat.
Have you seen how many EU Flags there are in Brussels and around their Parliement – for instance?
Talk about hypocrites.
Little wonder that people polled the way they did. Since 2016 and more latterly the 2019 election, the establishment, including the majority of MPs of all parties, the BBC, the civil service, most of the print media, have campaigned relentlessly against Brexit and done everything in their power to prevent the successful implementation of a true Brexit.
The covid hysteria proved to government that continuous propaganda works on the hard of thinking and so it has proved with Brexit. Many ordinary people seem to accept without question the assertion (from the above) that everything from inflation, increased utility costs, uncontrolled immigration and just about everything else that is negative, has been caused by Brexit.
I think you have that the wrong way round. The gov was too lazy but Aus press and social media bombarded the people with anti EU sentiment for the refrrendum poll. Today is the first day I have heard anything positive for EU and negative to Brexit allowed on BBC radio.
When you say “most of the print media”, I wonder what you actually mean?
The Telegraph? Were they Remain? No. The Mail? No. The Express? No- it would be difficult to be more Brexity than the Express without literally imploding. The Sun? No. The Times…..vague. Viz? Not sure. Classic Tractor? On the fence. So we’re left with the Guardian and the Independent, combined readership of 63.
So- how, in your rational view, is that “most of the print media”?
Also, I do enjoy reading the tirades of people who extolled the deep, native wisdom of the British People when they voted (just) for Brexit- using their great common sense to ignore the fear-mongering lies of the Leaver Elites- and yet who now declare the same Great British Public to be gullible, media-led saps now they might be changing their minds a bit. It’s a bit ironic, don’t you think? Makes me laugh, anyway.
If you’d stayed in the EU you could return all the dinghy immigrants back to France (availing if the Dublin agreement).
Inflation and soaring house/rent costs are due to the transfer of wast wealth from the taxpayers to the 0.1% and its attendant tax dodging, being closed off by the EU. Thar btw was the main reason for Brexit, ie to avoid EU regulations preventing that scam.
Utility price gouging is due to the 0.1% benefiting from your sell off of state assets which alone was not related to Brexit but to the Tories sell off.. aka Privatisation!
I think you have that the wrong way round. The gov was too lazy but Aus press and social media bombarded the people with anti EU sentiment for the refrrendum poll. Today is the first day I have heard anything positive for EU and negative to Brexit allowed on BBC radio.
When you say “most of the print media”, I wonder what you actually mean?
The Telegraph? Were they Remain? No. The Mail? No. The Express? No- it would be difficult to be more Brexity than the Express without literally imploding. The Sun? No. The Times…..vague. Viz? Not sure. Classic Tractor? On the fence. So we’re left with the Guardian and the Independent, combined readership of 63.
So- how, in your rational view, is that “most of the print media”?
Also, I do enjoy reading the tirades of people who extolled the deep, native wisdom of the British People when they voted (just) for Brexit- using their great common sense to ignore the fear-mongering lies of the Leaver Elites- and yet who now declare the same Great British Public to be gullible, media-led saps now they might be changing their minds a bit. It’s a bit ironic, don’t you think? Makes me laugh, anyway.
If you’d stayed in the EU you could return all the dinghy immigrants back to France (availing if the Dublin agreement).
Inflation and soaring house/rent costs are due to the transfer of wast wealth from the taxpayers to the 0.1% and its attendant tax dodging, being closed off by the EU. Thar btw was the main reason for Brexit, ie to avoid EU regulations preventing that scam.
Utility price gouging is due to the 0.1% benefiting from your sell off of state assets which alone was not related to Brexit but to the Tories sell off.. aka Privatisation!
Little wonder that people polled the way they did. Since 2016 and more latterly the 2019 election, the establishment, including the majority of MPs of all parties, the BBC, the civil service, most of the print media, have campaigned relentlessly against Brexit and done everything in their power to prevent the successful implementation of a true Brexit.
The covid hysteria proved to government that continuous propaganda works on the hard of thinking and so it has proved with Brexit. Many ordinary people seem to accept without question the assertion (from the above) that everything from inflation, increased utility costs, uncontrolled immigration and just about everything else that is negative, has been caused by Brexit.
Labour will not campaign in 2024 on re-joining the EU. They are too desperate to regain power and will leave nothing to chance. The Remainers’ hopes are that enough Brexit voters will have died by 2029 for a commitment to re-join being part of the 2029 manifesto. If more than 50% of voters vote for pro-EU parties, the need for a referendum would be dispensed with.
How will the EU fare over the next 6 years? The narrow debate over the war in Ukraine does not allow the MSM to explore to what extent Germany was prepared to let Russian tanks roll into other EU states in exchange for Russian energy. Nor will there be a debate on UK expenditure on the war. European governments will continue paying for Ukraine to continue fighting and their finances will continue to suffer. It is quite possible that Ukraine will be fought over for the next 6 years and that there will be no end to the war in sight. A financial crisis is more likely to transform the EU debate. Germany will again face the choice between sound finance and maintaining the Euro. Macron’s Presidency will limp on but in 2027 the French banking and corporate elite will have to pull a different rabbit out of the hat. It is quite possible that the second round will be between the far right and the far left. Those favouring a return to the EU will find that a proposal to join the Euro will be as unattractive to voters as the SNP’s proposal that an independent Scotland should use sterling.
Labour will not campaign in 2024 on re-joining the EU. They are too desperate to regain power and will leave nothing to chance. The Remainers’ hopes are that enough Brexit voters will have died by 2029 for a commitment to re-join being part of the 2029 manifesto. If more than 50% of voters vote for pro-EU parties, the need for a referendum would be dispensed with.
How will the EU fare over the next 6 years? The narrow debate over the war in Ukraine does not allow the MSM to explore to what extent Germany was prepared to let Russian tanks roll into other EU states in exchange for Russian energy. Nor will there be a debate on UK expenditure on the war. European governments will continue paying for Ukraine to continue fighting and their finances will continue to suffer. It is quite possible that Ukraine will be fought over for the next 6 years and that there will be no end to the war in sight. A financial crisis is more likely to transform the EU debate. Germany will again face the choice between sound finance and maintaining the Euro. Macron’s Presidency will limp on but in 2027 the French banking and corporate elite will have to pull a different rabbit out of the hat. It is quite possible that the second round will be between the far right and the far left. Those favouring a return to the EU will find that a proposal to join the Euro will be as unattractive to voters as the SNP’s proposal that an independent Scotland should use sterling.
Can’t really see how McTague can conflate the pantomime travesty policies the Tories have made out of Brexit and the desires embodied by the Brexit vote – they are very different things. If anything, the tories have betrayed the vote in the most appalling fashion.
We need direct democracy without delay – our institutions are corrupt
Can’t really see how McTague can conflate the pantomime travesty policies the Tories have made out of Brexit and the desires embodied by the Brexit vote – they are very different things. If anything, the tories have betrayed the vote in the most appalling fashion.
We need direct democracy without delay – our institutions are corrupt
The referendum vote was very close so this survey should not be a surprise.
its a fair comment for sure – but I may remind readers, the Swiss vote to join The EU was lost at 50.1% in favour of NOT joining.
But they have a close alliance Boris rejected on behalf of the Russians or Yanks
But they have a close alliance Boris rejected on behalf of the Russians or Yanks
In a way its a surprise people haven’t clued up to become 100% against Brexit, Boris, Murdoch, Farage and the former Indians on the front bench. We have become almost a slave society to English corruption.
its a fair comment for sure – but I may remind readers, the Swiss vote to join The EU was lost at 50.1% in favour of NOT joining.
In a way its a surprise people haven’t clued up to become 100% against Brexit, Boris, Murdoch, Farage and the former Indians on the front bench. We have become almost a slave society to English corruption.
The referendum vote was very close so this survey should not be a surprise.
Brexit was a bad idea that the Conservatives exploited to win elections. Now that everyone sees it was a bad idea Labor will exploit that to win elections. Payback is a b***h.
Brexit was a bad idea that the Conservatives exploited to win elections. Now that everyone sees it was a bad idea Labor will exploit that to win elections. Payback is a b***h.
Agree. I could certainly see a case for brexit, but not the Brexit that was on offer, because I didn’t trust Boris and Nigel and their acolytes to deliver anything good. Unfortunately I was right. Things are much worse and immigration is at it highest. Nothing is stopping the hordes pouring in.
If you government wasn’t warmongering in Ukraine you might have much fewer asylum seekers.. have you made the link? BJ stopped Zelenskyy from negotiating a peace deal. You can’t have it both ways.
If you government wasn’t warmongering in Ukraine you might have much fewer asylum seekers.. have you made the link? BJ stopped Zelenskyy from negotiating a peace deal. You can’t have it both ways.
Agree. I could certainly see a case for brexit, but not the Brexit that was on offer, because I didn’t trust Boris and Nigel and their acolytes to deliver anything good. Unfortunately I was right. Things are much worse and immigration is at it highest. Nothing is stopping the hordes pouring in.
Sense is Starmer/Labour exercising sensible realpolitik. We’re not re-joining anytime soon, and certainly won’t ever get the advantageous terms we had. So we have to get on and make the best of a bad deal. Historians and future generations can reflect on our degree of national stupidity/wisdom in years to come.
That doesn’t mean it’s easy to square all the contradictions within project Brexit though. This’ll vex us for years. The Brexiteers themselves can’t square them and too often default to blaming others. Pretty pathetic and public increasingly recognising that, but doesn’t mean Rejoin is an option.
Had Brexit resulted in a rigorous renewed national industrial strategy with underpinning national training and education initiatives we might have a chance of avoiding Brexit declinism. None of this has happened, nor looks likely any time soon. Labour may seize it and we’ll see. Even more pertinent Brexit did not need to involve withdrawal from Single Market. It’s a fact, albeit uncomfortable one for many Brexiteers that likes of Farage, Hannan etc said we’d remain in Single Market and do a Norway, have our cake and eat it essentially. They were wrong, and wrong because their theory was i) German car makers etc would insist EU allowed us to keep SM benefits but junk free movement ii) EU would fall part and we’d end doing bi-lateral deals anyway. If nothing else the people who indicated this is what would happen must be held to account. They badly misjudged things.
We did though get a glimmer last week of what can be made of Brexit. The new UK agriculture subsidy system is an improvement on EU farming subsidy and much more encourages environmental farming. Credit is due. That said I suspect Brexiteers primary motivation wasn’t protecting Bees and hedgerows, but I applaud the degree of sacrifice they were prepared to accept for these benefits.
Back to Labour – term we’ll hear more about – dynamic alignment – to find where alignment with Single Market can help us. Public will ‘get’ it, esp as the trials this year have only really just started for the UK economy.
“We’re not re-joining anytime soon,”
So maybe it’s time to stop whining and adopt a more positive attitude?
No we need to hold the folks who pushed for this to account. It’s called democracy. You want to have a decision and then never be allowed to comment, scrutinise, hold to account, go live under the CCP.
I haven’t pushed to re-join. That’s not going to happen. Fact I think it’s likely to prove a massive historical error not to stay and work harder at some key EU reforms beside the point now. The issue now is let’s be having the Brexiteers show us all the benefits they said we’d have. They/You need to keep hearing it if you are not. And certainly whilst blaming others for non-delivery that has to be called out for the deflection it is. And the reason why isn’t personnel, it’s that’s making better decisions in the future requires accountability.
So if we had stayed in, and Covid still happened, and the Ukraine War still happened, and our economic situation worsened, would you be happy for the 52% who voted Leave to sit back with hands behind heads and say “Go on then, Remainers. Crack on and prove it was right to stay in”? Or would you be exhorting all of us to pull together for the benefit of the nation?
I wouldn’t be saying stop criticising constructively for sure. That’s essential to good Governance whichever side won.
EU needed some reforms, and even more important to the UK, as it was undermining support, we needed to fully apply the free movement caveats allowed within the Treaty Articles – minimum capital requirements, job advertised locally first, 3mths and no job and you go home, Benefits at the rate of home economy etc. I’d have reinstated the Migration Area Investment Fund too (cancelled by Osborne), for those areas subject to increases. (I’ve also have pushed for a ‘naturalisation’ process albeit more to apply to non EU migration as the cultural differences can be an added dynamic – command of the language being but one because re-instilling confidence in immigration policy was important)
And then of course a whole range of other things we could do to pull the EU more our way, like the way subsidies work. And in concert with like minded EU countries we’d have had significant leverage. But we had to build alliances and do good politics rather than act like a petulant spoilt child. And I’d have expected to tested on all this if I’d won on such a mandate.
The trouble with Brexiteers is that as well as not really giving the detail a great deal of advance thought they then compounded the misery but assumption winning meant thinking came to an end. It was supposed to just be the start. Nirvana doesn’t just happen. And when it just doesn’t you don’t start pathetically blaming everyone else.
You economic situation might resemble the rest of the G7 (especially the EU states) who suffered all of those same calamities as well, ie all but Brexit..
I wouldn’t be saying stop criticising constructively for sure. That’s essential to good Governance whichever side won.
EU needed some reforms, and even more important to the UK, as it was undermining support, we needed to fully apply the free movement caveats allowed within the Treaty Articles – minimum capital requirements, job advertised locally first, 3mths and no job and you go home, Benefits at the rate of home economy etc. I’d have reinstated the Migration Area Investment Fund too (cancelled by Osborne), for those areas subject to increases. (I’ve also have pushed for a ‘naturalisation’ process albeit more to apply to non EU migration as the cultural differences can be an added dynamic – command of the language being but one because re-instilling confidence in immigration policy was important)
And then of course a whole range of other things we could do to pull the EU more our way, like the way subsidies work. And in concert with like minded EU countries we’d have had significant leverage. But we had to build alliances and do good politics rather than act like a petulant spoilt child. And I’d have expected to tested on all this if I’d won on such a mandate.
The trouble with Brexiteers is that as well as not really giving the detail a great deal of advance thought they then compounded the misery but assumption winning meant thinking came to an end. It was supposed to just be the start. Nirvana doesn’t just happen. And when it just doesn’t you don’t start pathetically blaming everyone else.
You economic situation might resemble the rest of the G7 (especially the EU states) who suffered all of those same calamities as well, ie all but Brexit..
So politicians whose policies and proposals you don’t like must be accountable whilst those of whom you approve don’t need to be?
Sadly, the EU just doesn’t do reform. Or accounts for that matter. It is too large and unaccountable to change.
That is absolutely nonsense. EU has implemented many reforms since we voted advisory leave which we haven’t and are now lagging behind on. Backward of Britain. Ireland shows just how bad the borders are and had to be excused
We’ve had relative peace in Europe for 75 years thanks to the EU keeping the mad, war hungry nations like GB, Germany, France, Spain and Italy all working together instead of blowing the sh¡t out off each other as was the norm for the previous 1,000 years or more..
That is absolutely nonsense. EU has implemented many reforms since we voted advisory leave which we haven’t and are now lagging behind on. Backward of Britain. Ireland shows just how bad the borders are and had to be excused
We’ve had relative peace in Europe for 75 years thanks to the EU keeping the mad, war hungry nations like GB, Germany, France, Spain and Italy all working together instead of blowing the sh¡t out off each other as was the norm for the previous 1,000 years or more..
Don’t forget Scotland will go it’s own way. What then, little England?
So if we had stayed in, and Covid still happened, and the Ukraine War still happened, and our economic situation worsened, would you be happy for the 52% who voted Leave to sit back with hands behind heads and say “Go on then, Remainers. Crack on and prove it was right to stay in”? Or would you be exhorting all of us to pull together for the benefit of the nation?
So politicians whose policies and proposals you don’t like must be accountable whilst those of whom you approve don’t need to be?
Sadly, the EU just doesn’t do reform. Or accounts for that matter. It is too large and unaccountable to change.
Don’t forget Scotland will go it’s own way. What then, little England?
Remainers have always had a more positive attitude because they have realism on their side. Clown as much as you like, that’s truth.
I’m not sure that’ll do a lot.. delusion can only get you so far! Then reality comes down on you like a ton of bricks!
No we need to hold the folks who pushed for this to account. It’s called democracy. You want to have a decision and then never be allowed to comment, scrutinise, hold to account, go live under the CCP.
I haven’t pushed to re-join. That’s not going to happen. Fact I think it’s likely to prove a massive historical error not to stay and work harder at some key EU reforms beside the point now. The issue now is let’s be having the Brexiteers show us all the benefits they said we’d have. They/You need to keep hearing it if you are not. And certainly whilst blaming others for non-delivery that has to be called out for the deflection it is. And the reason why isn’t personnel, it’s that’s making better decisions in the future requires accountability.
Remainers have always had a more positive attitude because they have realism on their side. Clown as much as you like, that’s truth.
I’m not sure that’ll do a lot.. delusion can only get you so far! Then reality comes down on you like a ton of bricks!
What a clear and balanced analysis- well said!
Except I can’t agree farming deal is good and bees and food and livestock standards are set to plummet with legislation going thro Parliament now. People voted for an entertaining clown and now we are all stuck in a circus of horrific consequences. We need a general election not journalists making excuses for brexit
I like “dynamic alignment”. I’ve been trying to think of a good euphemism for “customs union” that wouldn’t frighten the horses.
“We’re not re-joining anytime soon,”
So maybe it’s time to stop whining and adopt a more positive attitude?
What a clear and balanced analysis- well said!
Except I can’t agree farming deal is good and bees and food and livestock standards are set to plummet with legislation going thro Parliament now. People voted for an entertaining clown and now we are all stuck in a circus of horrific consequences. We need a general election not journalists making excuses for brexit
I like “dynamic alignment”. I’ve been trying to think of a good euphemism for “customs union” that wouldn’t frighten the horses.
Sense is Starmer/Labour exercising sensible realpolitik. We’re not re-joining anytime soon, and certainly won’t ever get the advantageous terms we had. So we have to get on and make the best of a bad deal. Historians and future generations can reflect on our degree of national stupidity/wisdom in years to come.
That doesn’t mean it’s easy to square all the contradictions within project Brexit though. This’ll vex us for years. The Brexiteers themselves can’t square them and too often default to blaming others. Pretty pathetic and public increasingly recognising that, but doesn’t mean Rejoin is an option.
Had Brexit resulted in a rigorous renewed national industrial strategy with underpinning national training and education initiatives we might have a chance of avoiding Brexit declinism. None of this has happened, nor looks likely any time soon. Labour may seize it and we’ll see. Even more pertinent Brexit did not need to involve withdrawal from Single Market. It’s a fact, albeit uncomfortable one for many Brexiteers that likes of Farage, Hannan etc said we’d remain in Single Market and do a Norway, have our cake and eat it essentially. They were wrong, and wrong because their theory was i) German car makers etc would insist EU allowed us to keep SM benefits but junk free movement ii) EU would fall part and we’d end doing bi-lateral deals anyway. If nothing else the people who indicated this is what would happen must be held to account. They badly misjudged things.
We did though get a glimmer last week of what can be made of Brexit. The new UK agriculture subsidy system is an improvement on EU farming subsidy and much more encourages environmental farming. Credit is due. That said I suspect Brexiteers primary motivation wasn’t protecting Bees and hedgerows, but I applaud the degree of sacrifice they were prepared to accept for these benefits.
Back to Labour – term we’ll hear more about – dynamic alignment – to find where alignment with Single Market can help us. Public will ‘get’ it, esp as the trials this year have only really just started for the UK economy.
spot on.
spot on.
To paraphrase Max Planck – this issue advances one death at a time. Brexit chiefly reflects the mindset of the over 60s – as they die out and the young come into voting age, so we see the shift back to valuing being part the EU. For all the rational-ish arguing, I’ve become increasingly sure that Brexit positions, in or out, are about political aesthetics rather than reality. The tragedy is that the Brexit Boomers will all dead by the time Brexit truly manifests – leaving the younger remainer cohort to live in a system they did not want. Just another point of boomer over-reach.
Nonsense
From reading your comments, I am not sure you understood what I am saying – maybe I was not clear enough. Two points – whilst there is a group of people serious about the issues, there are many who are superficial, along simple, predetermined emotive lines – ‘I love/hate the EU’. The latter I call the political aesthetes, concerned with the feeling of the thing, rather than the fuller reality. Second, a tragedy of Brexit is that it is much more popular with older generation – most/many of whom who will die before any hypothesised benefits emerge – leaving the young generation to bear the brunt of Brexit, that they did not want, and possibly (likely I think) one which will never work.
From reading your comments, I am not sure you understood what I am saying – maybe I was not clear enough. Two points – whilst there is a group of people serious about the issues, there are many who are superficial, along simple, predetermined emotive lines – ‘I love/hate the EU’. The latter I call the political aesthetes, concerned with the feeling of the thing, rather than the fuller reality. Second, a tragedy of Brexit is that it is much more popular with older generation – most/many of whom who will die before any hypothesised benefits emerge – leaving the young generation to bear the brunt of Brexit, that they did not want, and possibly (likely I think) one which will never work.
Nonsense
To paraphrase Max Planck – this issue advances one death at a time. Brexit chiefly reflects the mindset of the over 60s – as they die out and the young come into voting age, so we see the shift back to valuing being part the EU. For all the rational-ish arguing, I’ve become increasingly sure that Brexit positions, in or out, are about political aesthetics rather than reality. The tragedy is that the Brexit Boomers will all dead by the time Brexit truly manifests – leaving the younger remainer cohort to live in a system they did not want. Just another point of boomer over-reach.
Brexit was a textbook case of populism in action.
Charismatic leader – check (Johnson / Farage);
Promises that cannot be kept – check (Billions of £ to the NHS; no internal borders; a plethora of trade deals within weeks of leaving…etc);
Scapegoating – check (Brussels / EU / immigrants);
Evocation of corrupt elite oppressing the honest, hard working masses – check (Brussels / EU / Remain voters);
Falsely rebranding the electorate as one unified voice with the same needs and beliefs – check (‘The Great British People’);
Add to all that the more recent innovation of running a political campaign on empty slogans (‘Get Brexit done’ / ‘Take Control’) and making a promotional video that wouldn’t look out of place on Netflix…and Bob’s your uncle.
Hardly surprising that when the chickens come home to roost the culprits are no longer held in the same esteem they once were.
And if anyone’s seen our newly regained sovereignty lurking anywhere, do please let me know as I’m still looking…
Brilliant and educated reply.
You hit the nail on the head.. hence the downticks.. this site is replete with deniers and Little Englanders..
This site- despite its stated ‘mission-statement’, not to mention title – is an angry echo-chamber of half-baked reactionary resentment and the self-pitying victimhood of the well-off.
As such, it probably serves a sort of purpose.
This site- despite its stated ‘mission-statement’, not to mention title – is an angry echo-chamber of half-baked reactionary resentment and the self-pitying victimhood of the well-off.
As such, it probably serves a sort of purpose.
Brilliant and educated reply.
You hit the nail on the head.. hence the downticks.. this site is replete with deniers and Little Englanders..
Brexit was a textbook case of populism in action.
Charismatic leader – check (Johnson / Farage);
Promises that cannot be kept – check (Billions of £ to the NHS; no internal borders; a plethora of trade deals within weeks of leaving…etc);
Scapegoating – check (Brussels / EU / immigrants);
Evocation of corrupt elite oppressing the honest, hard working masses – check (Brussels / EU / Remain voters);
Falsely rebranding the electorate as one unified voice with the same needs and beliefs – check (‘The Great British People’);
Add to all that the more recent innovation of running a political campaign on empty slogans (‘Get Brexit done’ / ‘Take Control’) and making a promotional video that wouldn’t look out of place on Netflix…and Bob’s your uncle.
Hardly surprising that when the chickens come home to roost the culprits are no longer held in the same esteem they once were.
And if anyone’s seen our newly regained sovereignty lurking anywhere, do please let me know as I’m still looking…
Alea iacta est
To state the obvious, there has never been a political or economic case to support Brexit in any form whatsoever. The facile nonsense about sovereignty rankles most, as it is a surrogate for a distasteful xenophobia which runs counter to the very values that Roger Tombs himself might express as ‘English exceptionalism’. Immigration is on balance beneficial to a growing economy; what is required is a government that has vision and leadership to invest in infrastructure, health, education and diverse technologies to support future economic growth. It may well be true that Asia-Pacific will be an engine of growth in the first half to the 21st century, but the UK could have accomplished all of its Brexit objectives more effectively by acting through the EU to forge new trade alliances.
Quite apart from exposing the lack of capability in the UK political class (notably the Tory right who promoted Brexit and have been shown as wholly incapable of delivering it), and in profoundly scarring the UK economy, the UK has lost material diplomatic power and leverage. The US now regards the UK as largely irrelevant, as its dialogue with the EU will now take place mainly with France and Germany directly. The outcome of the Russian war on Ukraine will be determined by the US working with the EU, with the UK playing a peripheral role – despite the support that the UK has shown. That is the tragedy of Brexit – the UK flailing its arms on the sidelines of the main events.
It is hardly surprising that the electorate is shifting its views in Brexit, as the above is blindingly obvious. The idea that it is too soon to determine whether Brexit has been a success or failure is truly laughable. It’s only a matter of time before one of the main political parties has the courage to adopt a return to full EU membership as a mainstream policy, although it is probably too soon to revisit the toxic arguments that preceded the referendum, and the immediate aftermath.
One can only hope that the inevitable negotiation for the UK reentry is carried out by capable people, rather than the indolent, careless and incompetent UK politicians who have been involved to date.
“Iacta alea est”.
Suetonius, De vita Caesarum, lib I, xxxii
Et cum spirito tuo, amen!!
“Septem juncta in uno” !
The die may be cast but it is not unchangeable or irreplaceable
“Septem juncta in uno” !
The die may be cast but it is not unchangeable or irreplaceable
Et cum spirito tuo, amen!!
The political case for Brexit is overwhelming. The principle narrative of British politics for hundreds of years has been the struggle to make those who rule accountable to those they rule. Maastricht is a complete abnegation of that tradition imposed without any kind of consent. Sooner or later there was always going to be a revolt.
That kind of statement may satisfy a tabloid audience, but simply does not stand up to scrutiny. The UK had a voice that was significant and influential in agreeing EU law and regulation, and to suggest that we did not, and that the UK was some kind of passive victim of the EU is false.
Moreover, in the aftermath of WW2, Britain was at the forefront in agreeing the conditions that led to peace and stability across Europe, and in doing so, defined much of its post-Empire role. It has now turned its back on that, and regressed into a navel-gazing, xenophobic, tail-chasing shadow of itself. It will not be a significant voice at the table in determining the conditions in which the Russian war on Ukraine is eventually settled – a material diminution in its real and perceived diplomatic status.
“Had” you are right. But you need to find out more. The EU has done what they said they would never do (but UK didnt believe) and that includes publishing legislation to:
1) Remove all national vetos
2) Remove voting rights from individual countries
3)!Establishing its own independent (from member states) armed forces -no member state will have a veto over
3)!Establishing its own independent foreign policy – no member state will have a veto over
4) implement majority voting – easily done by EU Blackmail (ask Poland and Hungary)
It will all go through the EU “parliament” of course more likely without a whisper as EU will threaten and bully members by not funding them with (what was) largesse from The UK and Germany (now mostly Germany with a pittance from other minor “net contributors”)
Rubbish
Rubbish
It isn’t sufficient to attack me with the sort of vague pablum that you’ve produced here. Explain how the EU commission is in any way accountable to voters in EU countries. Tell me what powers of oversight and repeal the EU ‘parliament’ has. Educate yourself first – otherwise nothing you write has any authority.
MEP’s cannot even bring forward legislation to The EU Parliament – only the unelected/unsackable/appointed (failed politicians) can do that.
I say failed politicians as thats what they mostly are. Member state Politicians that have lost their voters confidence in their own Country – Neil Kinnock and Chris Patten to name just two.
The words Gravy Train sporings to mind, especially in the case of that well known failed Politician Kinnock!
Do you know how many MP introduced bills get through Westminster each year. About 1.
Do you know how many MP introduced bills get through Westminster each year. About 1.
Everything the commission decides has to go in front of the EU parliament. Unlike our Statutory Instruments etc. The EU is marvellously democratic. They all even get to vote on their leader.
MEP’s cannot even bring forward legislation to The EU Parliament – only the unelected/unsackable/appointed (failed politicians) can do that.
I say failed politicians as thats what they mostly are. Member state Politicians that have lost their voters confidence in their own Country – Neil Kinnock and Chris Patten to name just two.
The words Gravy Train sporings to mind, especially in the case of that well known failed Politician Kinnock!
Everything the commission decides has to go in front of the EU parliament. Unlike our Statutory Instruments etc. The EU is marvellously democratic. They all even get to vote on their leader.
What utter nonsense.
Britain is no more or less “xenophobic” than it was before.
You really think that EU negotations are going to help end the Ukraine war ? Either Putin loses and there’s no negotiation, or Putin ignores the EU (which he simply doesn’t rate).
And your seriously think the EU has any real clout in Ukraine negotiations ? The meddling of incompetents like Cathy Ashton (reminder to Gordon Brown: “first rate people hire first rate people, second rate people hire third rate people and third rate people hire morons”) played some part in getting us where we are today.
And perhaps ask the Ukrainians how they rank UK support vs EU support over the past year.
If Boris had backed Ukraine like US and Ukraine asked from 2016 instead of sending them sticking plasters and clothing, breaking the Istanbul agreement of 1996 where we persuaded Ukraine to remove its defences (nuclear) Ukraine would never have been invaded. Boris is hiding he was taking Russian money.
If Boris had backed Ukraine like US and Ukraine asked from 2016 instead of sending them sticking plasters and clothing, breaking the Istanbul agreement of 1996 where we persuaded Ukraine to remove its defences (nuclear) Ukraine would never have been invaded. Boris is hiding he was taking Russian money.
How typical that you think the conditions under which the Russian aggression is ended against Ukraine should be decided by anyone other than the peoples of Ukraine. Of course, there will be interests with a voice. Our moral and physical support via armaments will provide the Ukraine with sufficient confidence in the UK to listen to us. Do you think they’ll listen more carefully to Germany, dragging it’s feet at every turn and whose faces have been turned towards the Russians despite trying to dominate the EU (along with the French) at the expense of less powerful nations?
In terms of the ‘realpolitic’ you think you’re dealing in, that’s the reality.
We are always happy to let others bleed for us
We are always happy to let others bleed for us
True and we undermined the EU at every turn asking America what it wanted us to do to EU law. Whilst accepting Russian money. Very Boris.
True; though unpopular among the deluded as you can see.
“Had” you are right. But you need to find out more. The EU has done what they said they would never do (but UK didnt believe) and that includes publishing legislation to:
1) Remove all national vetos
2) Remove voting rights from individual countries
3)!Establishing its own independent (from member states) armed forces -no member state will have a veto over
3)!Establishing its own independent foreign policy – no member state will have a veto over
4) implement majority voting – easily done by EU Blackmail (ask Poland and Hungary)
It will all go through the EU “parliament” of course more likely without a whisper as EU will threaten and bully members by not funding them with (what was) largesse from The UK and Germany (now mostly Germany with a pittance from other minor “net contributors”)
It isn’t sufficient to attack me with the sort of vague pablum that you’ve produced here. Explain how the EU commission is in any way accountable to voters in EU countries. Tell me what powers of oversight and repeal the EU ‘parliament’ has. Educate yourself first – otherwise nothing you write has any authority.
What utter nonsense.
Britain is no more or less “xenophobic” than it was before.
You really think that EU negotations are going to help end the Ukraine war ? Either Putin loses and there’s no negotiation, or Putin ignores the EU (which he simply doesn’t rate).
And your seriously think the EU has any real clout in Ukraine negotiations ? The meddling of incompetents like Cathy Ashton (reminder to Gordon Brown: “first rate people hire first rate people, second rate people hire third rate people and third rate people hire morons”) played some part in getting us where we are today.
And perhaps ask the Ukrainians how they rank UK support vs EU support over the past year.
How typical that you think the conditions under which the Russian aggression is ended against Ukraine should be decided by anyone other than the peoples of Ukraine. Of course, there will be interests with a voice. Our moral and physical support via armaments will provide the Ukraine with sufficient confidence in the UK to listen to us. Do you think they’ll listen more carefully to Germany, dragging it’s feet at every turn and whose faces have been turned towards the Russians despite trying to dominate the EU (along with the French) at the expense of less powerful nations?
In terms of the ‘realpolitic’ you think you’re dealing in, that’s the reality.
True and we undermined the EU at every turn asking America what it wanted us to do to EU law. Whilst accepting Russian money. Very Boris.
True; though unpopular among the deluded as you can see.
“The political case for Brexit is overwhelming”
Then why were most MPS strongly against it? Why was 48% of the country against it at the referendum point, and now 58%?
Overwhelming, no; touch and go, unproven, maybe – ok.
Cobblers, drop your emotion and fear Europeans may be better than you.
That kind of statement may satisfy a tabloid audience, but simply does not stand up to scrutiny. The UK had a voice that was significant and influential in agreeing EU law and regulation, and to suggest that we did not, and that the UK was some kind of passive victim of the EU is false.
Moreover, in the aftermath of WW2, Britain was at the forefront in agreeing the conditions that led to peace and stability across Europe, and in doing so, defined much of its post-Empire role. It has now turned its back on that, and regressed into a navel-gazing, xenophobic, tail-chasing shadow of itself. It will not be a significant voice at the table in determining the conditions in which the Russian war on Ukraine is eventually settled – a material diminution in its real and perceived diplomatic status.
“The political case for Brexit is overwhelming”
Then why were most MPS strongly against it? Why was 48% of the country against it at the referendum point, and now 58%?
Overwhelming, no; touch and go, unproven, maybe – ok.
Cobblers, drop your emotion and fear Europeans may be better than you.
What a load of Trite nonsense.
It’s really not that good.
I put a laughing emojo here – but it seems to have vanished.
🙂 ought not to vanish – lets see.
I put a laughing emojo here – but it seems to have vanished.
🙂 ought not to vanish – lets see.
David Hedley is correct.
It’s really not that good.
David Hedley is correct.
Very good and accurate reply. The EU invested in the UK not the UK gov. And he EU is not a state or government, it is us and our friends making a bigger and better whole together, and now we have lost our individual rights to choose to live work and travel in Europe. Disgusting that the ignorant have grabbed the steering wheel of my life and I want compensation from them.
I’ll second that. Those who seem to think Englishness is some kind of superpower, have materially harmed my business, my enjoyment of life and my future. And I’m not about to shut up about it. Thank goodness that every day there are more and more accepting reality. The Brexit “majority” was always too narrow to be sustainable once reality dawned.
I’ll second that. Those who seem to think Englishness is some kind of superpower, have materially harmed my business, my enjoyment of life and my future. And I’m not about to shut up about it. Thank goodness that every day there are more and more accepting reality. The Brexit “majority” was always too narrow to be sustainable once reality dawned.
“Iacta alea est”.
Suetonius, De vita Caesarum, lib I, xxxii
The political case for Brexit is overwhelming. The principle narrative of British politics for hundreds of years has been the struggle to make those who rule accountable to those they rule. Maastricht is a complete abnegation of that tradition imposed without any kind of consent. Sooner or later there was always going to be a revolt.
What a load of Trite nonsense.
Very good and accurate reply. The EU invested in the UK not the UK gov. And he EU is not a state or government, it is us and our friends making a bigger and better whole together, and now we have lost our individual rights to choose to live work and travel in Europe. Disgusting that the ignorant have grabbed the steering wheel of my life and I want compensation from them.
Alea iacta est
To state the obvious, there has never been a political or economic case to support Brexit in any form whatsoever. The facile nonsense about sovereignty rankles most, as it is a surrogate for a distasteful xenophobia which runs counter to the very values that Roger Tombs himself might express as ‘English exceptionalism’. Immigration is on balance beneficial to a growing economy; what is required is a government that has vision and leadership to invest in infrastructure, health, education and diverse technologies to support future economic growth. It may well be true that Asia-Pacific will be an engine of growth in the first half to the 21st century, but the UK could have accomplished all of its Brexit objectives more effectively by acting through the EU to forge new trade alliances.
Quite apart from exposing the lack of capability in the UK political class (notably the Tory right who promoted Brexit and have been shown as wholly incapable of delivering it), and in profoundly scarring the UK economy, the UK has lost material diplomatic power and leverage. The US now regards the UK as largely irrelevant, as its dialogue with the EU will now take place mainly with France and Germany directly. The outcome of the Russian war on Ukraine will be determined by the US working with the EU, with the UK playing a peripheral role – despite the support that the UK has shown. That is the tragedy of Brexit – the UK flailing its arms on the sidelines of the main events.
It is hardly surprising that the electorate is shifting its views in Brexit, as the above is blindingly obvious. The idea that it is too soon to determine whether Brexit has been a success or failure is truly laughable. It’s only a matter of time before one of the main political parties has the courage to adopt a return to full EU membership as a mainstream policy, although it is probably too soon to revisit the toxic arguments that preceded the referendum, and the immediate aftermath.
One can only hope that the inevitable negotiation for the UK reentry is carried out by capable people, rather than the indolent, careless and incompetent UK politicians who have been involved to date.