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New York Times gets braver with gender coverage

Screengrab from the NYT's latest gender critical piece. Credit: NYT

February 2, 2024 - 8:35pm

Pinned between activists and an ever more inconvenient set of facts, the New York Times has often shied away from treating the surge in transgender identification as the fascinating news story it is. All the news that’s fit to print — unless we risk making anyone uncomfortable, in other words.  

Over the past few years, the paper of record has made just a few tentative forays into serious reporting on the trans issue. In the summer of 2022, Emily Bazelon took a deep dive into the controversy over how to understand and treat gender-dysphoric youth. A November 2022 piece questioned the potential risks of puberty blockers. Just over a year ago, reporter Katie J. M. Baker explored the issue of schools socially transitioning students without informing their parents. 

These articles — which would have been utterly unremarkable in their lines of inquiry and methods had they concerned any other subject under the sun — attracted intense criticism from New York Times staffers as well as outside activist groups like GLAAD, which accused the paper of “questioning trans people’s right to exist.” GLAAD even parked a truck outside the Times’ offices in midtown Manhattan to protest. Even the most cautious reporting — so the activists argue — can kill. 

Today, the Times returned to the subject, printing an in-depth story by Pamela Paul titled: “As Kids, They Thought They Were Trans. They No Longer Do.” 

The writer introduces the reader to three young people who transitioned as teenagers: Grace, Kasey, and Paul. To anyone who has followed this issue, their stories are achingly familiar in their outlines. Grace was isolated, bullied, and depressed. “Puberty made everything worse.” Online, Grace discovered the idea that she might be trans and seized on that explanation for the sense of wrongness she felt. She came to believe that if she didn’t transition, she would kill herself. Gender clinicians — rather than trying to understand the sources of Grace’s distress — affirmed her self-rejection. 

Kasey “transitioned because I didn’t want to be gay.” She had experienced sexual abuse in early childhood and struggled with anxiety, depression, and suicidal ideation — experiences she shared with her medical providers that did not in any way interfere with their rapid affirmation of her new identity with testosterone and a double mastectomy. 

Paul found it “much less threatening to my psyche to think that I was a straight girl born into the wrong body — that I had a medical condition that could be tended to” than to accept himself as gay. When Paul visited a gender clinic in the mid-2000s, he was “immediately” affirmed, too. 

Detransition is the third rail of gender politics and reporting because detransitioners raise fundamental questions about gender dysphoria, transgender identification, and the gender-affirming care model. If patients can be mistaken, how can clinicians who defer to patient self-identification and “embodiment goals” possibly avoid causing harm? 

This is a deeply moving piece that goes much further in its implications than anything the New York Times has run before. There are, however, also curiosities surrounding Pamela Paul’s piece, like the editorial decision to relegate her reporting to the opinion pages, and to run an apologia of sorts by Times opinion editor Kathleen Kingsbury, in which she suggests, in the mildest possible terms, that more conversation is a good thing for “humanity, nuance and empathy,” and that gender medicine is full of “complexities.” 

Doctors, activists, and reporters alike have treated the subject of gender as an utter exception. Gender clinicians are meant to jettison everything they know about child and adolescent development, about the ways distress finds expression in our bodies, about how dangerous ideas can spread like wildfire. Activists have insisted that the whole world observe their taboos and echo their mantras. And media outlets like the Times have too often abandoned their responsibility to inform themselves and their readers, to bring the facts to light without fear or favor. There has been far too much fear and far too many favours to activists, who never should have been allowed to control the narrative. 

The New York Times is still trying to tell a contained story of what has gone wrong in the field of gender medicine, but Pamela Paul’s piece lays out — much more clearly than anything the paper has dared to print before — just how deep and vast the scandal is, and just how much harm has been done.


Eliza Mondegreen is a graduate student in psychiatry and the author of Writing Behavior on Substack.

elizamondegreen

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Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
2 months ago

“what has gone wrong in the field of gender medicine” – well, this is indeed an important question. Basically, those who have the responsibility to seek the truth have simply refused to actually do any seeking of truth, and have yielded to the psychotic delusions of trannies, who are in need of validation of their psychotic delusion. There are also the large number of medical quacks, like Joanna Cohen-Kennedy at UCLA, who make millions off of the butchery of children in service of this psychotic delusion.
There is truth out there. And there are and have always been psychotically deluded people. What trans has done is to rope off a subset of the psychotically deluded, and call them “normal variation”. This has allowed this delusion to be promulgated due to heavy pressure from trans activists, and due to the feckless and cowardly unwillingness of supposed experts to distinguish justification from truth.
In 10 years, when the wave of trannies who have been made stupid with puberty blockers, who have surgically mutilated themselves, who have alienated parents and families, wake up at 2 AM and ask “What have I done to myself?” Then a reconning will commence, and it will be a truly terrible one.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

“what has gone wrong in the field of gender medicine” <– Nothing has gone wrong. Regret rates — the accuracy with which transition is medically undertaken — has improved continually over decades until the regret rate is below 1%.
Neither Mondegreen nor you will provide any facts to the contrary.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

In 10 years time, it will be 30 years after gender affirming care became the standard approach to psychiatry and medicine helping transgender people with their problem. It will have been over 50 years then since puberty blockers began to be used in children. It will be 50 years the same then as now, where nothing you predict ss inevitable is seen.
The psychotic delusion here is yours and Mondegreen’s.
It is normal for 1 in 150 people to be noticeably to them transgender. That is the rate at which the variance occurs as a result of the usual mix of genes in circulation.
You sort of psychotic (delusional faith in a thing for which there is no evidence) has been claiming the “backlash” will happen any day now for decades. It never has and will not, because the accuracy of diagnosis with consequent medical transition has steadily increased from about 95% forty years ago, to over 99% today.
You and Mondegreen are only factless, vicious, monstrous child abusers, and no better or else.
This is what is representative and true of transgender people.
https://taliaperkinssspace.quora.com/People-are-born-transgender-they-are-not-mentally-ill-it-is-no-paraphilia-it-is-a-physical-birth-defect-no-more-a-men
You and Mondegreen both lie with no excuse for it whatsoever to claim otherwise.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
2 months ago

This is quite simply the best piece i’ve read on Unherd about the trans issue. Anyone who claims the article is biased should read some of the links and put forward a cogent argument about why they think anything – in the article or the links – is mistaken.
Shouting “bigot” at the article won’t do. I think individuals who do so, without providing anything to back up their emoting, are cowards.
Let me be clear. There are some young people who need to transition, and they should be respected and supported. This can best happen when all the avenues have been explored.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“Shouting “bigot” at the article won’t do. I think individuals who do so, without providing anything to back up their emoting, are cowards.”
Talia Perkins is particularly shameful in this respect.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
2 months ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

That’s who i had in mind. I’ve challenged her on more than one occasion to put forward arguments to support what she claims to be “facts” but she then disappears.
I challenge her again, to provide a cogent argument – rather than just mindless emoting – why anything in this article is mistaken.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Except I have never disappeared and always back up everything I claim. You only lie to claim everything you do.
Frankly, the UnHerd is only a herd that disappears what it does not want you to learn, or even be exposed to.

Aidan Trimble
Aidan Trimble
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

‘Her’ ? C’mon man.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Except I have never disappeared and always back up everything I claim. You only lie to claim everything you do.

Frankly, the UnHerd is only a herd that disappears what it does not want you to learn, or even be exposed to.

For example, that has been disappeared by UnHerd.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Liar, I always back up everything I say.
You ignore it.

Nathan Sapio
Nathan Sapio
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“Some young people need to transition”

What are your criteria for this?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Sapio

The age of consent (usually 18).

Until then, no surgical or chemical intervention, giving the individual at least a chance to avoid life-changing effects at too early a stage in their development.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

There is no factual basis for you claim youth can not transition medically per current protocols without a high rate of error. In fact, that rate of error is less than 1%.
I have already cited proof of that here.
You have no factual reply as yet.
Neither does Mondegreen.

Kyle Reese
Kyle Reese
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Detrans could be as high as 80%. we know most kids desist with puberty, if they dont take gender meds. We know people who detrans with gender meds often take 10 years to do so. and we know the US military says 30% who were taking gender meds stopped using them by year five, which tracks with 80% detrans by year ten. The meaningless online poll run by activists which produced the 1% number isnt credable, neither is all the other garbage promoted by big big and gender activists pushing this fraud

R Wright
R Wright
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

“Anyone who claims the article is biased should read some of the links and put forward a cogent argument about why they think anything – in the article or the links – is mistaken.”
Well, given that they are mentally ill, being mistaken about things isn’t exactly extraordinary.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  R Wright

There is no evidence any mental illness is a part of being transgender.
You won’t cite any either.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Here’s the evidence, Talia, not that it will change your blinkered mind.
“Each mental health diagnosis has a corresponding International Classification of Diseases (ICD) code developed by the World Health Organization (WHO). ”
The ICD codes for Gender Dysphoria are F64.1 and F64.2.
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/dsm-iv-diagnostic-codes#list-of-codes

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

And yet the DSM does not refer to them as any mental illness at all — and — the ICD 11 removes them from psychiatry altogether and places the diagnosis under the sexual health title.

Peter Schaeffer
Peter Schaeffer
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

The connection between gender dysphoria experienced for any reason and mental health exists.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/people-pcos-8-times-more-220039418.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9pbnN0YXB1bmRpdC5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIp0Jg2Mt7PqCSZlm1fQ86VMMfSYSMm1quJbeLrXObs3jlIyIn4Q0UPFsQGdsuNs9ce3OyxtpvuPOwXaEzly0lYVTcushyZ5dEA9ybx0NVgWr1Aa56FFIjgvJAgCIuQSwe5EedsXYEnF7kDln4SmOY5nBaOJ3NwX5lTqNgTsrEwA
That is not a reason to think gender dysphoria in transgender people should not be alleviated by medical transition per current protocols.

T Bone
T Bone
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

There are people that have transitioned to being amputees. These individuals underwent voluntary limb amputation by licensed surgeons due to what’s called “Body Identity Integrity Disorder.”

Do you think those decisions should be respected and supported?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
2 months ago
Reply to  T Bone

If an adult wants to do it, and they can find a willing surgeon, I don’t see an issue. Finding a surgeon will never happen though.

T Bone
T Bone
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It’s been done so there are surgeons that will do it. But even if you buy into the libertarian argument that it’s a voluntary market transaction, should the decision be “affirmed” IE supported and respected?

There’s a big difference between affirming it and just tolerating it as part of a free society.

Andy Bell
Andy Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  T Bone

100% this. When it comes to adults live and let live. Doesn’t mean that I’m not allowed to disagree though.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
2 months ago
Reply to  T Bone

Yes.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
2 months ago
Reply to  T Bone

Of course not.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  T Bone

“There are people … respected and supported?” <– Which has nothing to do with it, as a transgender person does not desire a less than usually capable body.

T Bone
T Bone
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Aren’t you being an Ableist?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  T Bone

No, I am not — neither can you make a colorable argument that I am.

T Bone
T Bone
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Arguing with a radical subjectivist is like throwing a grain of sand into the ocean and trying to recover it.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  T Bone
Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Here is a quite brief list of links which proves every part of the article is more than mistaken — it is a deliberate propaganda effort to force the grotesque abuse in law and policy of transgender children and people.
https://taliaperkinssspace.quora.com/People-are-born-transgender-they-are-not-mentally-ill-it-is-no-paraphilia-it-is-a-physical-birth-defect-no-more-a-men

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

You can’t use yourself as a source.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Lying imbecile, I am not.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
2 months ago

So some teenagers made choices they came to regret. Who could have seen that one coming? I’m totally shocked that a fourteen year old can’t make sound, well reasoned choices about life altering surgeries. I mean we let let teenagers vote, drive, drink, run for Congress, and do so many other things that are presumed to require a certain amount of responsibility and sound judgement… oh wait.

Yeah, I just find the dialogue on this subject to be borderline absurd. It’s hard to take trans-activists seriously when they employ such ridiculous logic.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

The only ridiculous “logic” here is yours. Only 1 in 150 people are transgender or ever say they are. Those who say they are and transition medically regret that at less than a 1% rate.
What you are claiming then if you want to prohibit the current gender-affirming protocols for youth beginning medical transition as youth, is that for the sake of no more than 1 in 15000 people — you are willing to force 99 boys and girls respectively to grow up with breasts and a period, and, with beards and deep voices.
Find any actual facts which contradict that.

Flibberti Gibbet
Flibberti Gibbet
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

There are about 800,000 children in each year group in the UK. According to your 1 in 150 ratio, this equates to up to 5,333 children each year becoming eligible for a medical treatment regime that amounts to some degree of physical sexual mutilation.
This prospect alarms many people and most here apparently.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

Except one of the criteria includes a desire to transition medically, and only 1 in 3 choose to do so — and it is forced sexual mutilation to force a boy to have a period and breasts, and to force a girl to have a beard and a deep voice.
Why so many approve of that mutilation the only factually based question.

Flibberti Gibbet
Flibberti Gibbet
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

only 1 in 3 choose to do so

I will sleep so much better now knowing the NHS will only sexually mutilate up to 1,777 children a year.

it is forced sexual mutilation to force a boy to have a period and breasts

You are advocating for the genocide of Lesbians, I don’t think that was encoded in the founding remit of the NHS.
Anyhow please stick around on this forum, it is most instructive to encounter the logical reasoning behind your beliefs.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

“I will sleep so much better now knowing the NHS will only sexually mutilate up to 1,777 children a year” <– There is no such mutilation. It is mutilation for you to force boys to have breasts and periods and for you to force girls to have beards and deep voices.
“You are advocating for the genocide of Lesbians,” <– Nonsense, because gender identity and sexual orientation are separate physical characteristics of person. Also transgender people are almost equally likely to be straight, or gay, or bi — everything you think you know about it is a lie.
Do you care?

Flibberti Gibbet
Flibberti Gibbet
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Do you care?

Clearly I do. I should have been 3 miles into my 7000 step evening country side walk by now but here I am at my keyboard.
Your creed is leading to the genocide of homosexuals and lesbians with horrible individual human consequences. It is also leading to the elimination of traditional social groups in our society who have contributed to diversity in civilization for millennia.
Homosexuality is not a medical problem that requires surgical intervention, Western society dropped such thinking 60 years ago but now we have descended into a new dark age.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

“Your creed is leading to the genocide of homosexuals and lesbians with horrible individual human consequences.” <– Except the fact is a transgender person is almost equally likely to be gay, bi, or straight — so the net numbers of gay, bi, and straight people are unaffected by medical transition.
You are merely an idiot without even the barest factual excuse for what you claim.
“Homosexuality is not a medical problem that requires surgical intervention,” <– So what? That is not at issue, moron.

Flibberti Gibbet
Flibberti Gibbet
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

so the net numbers of gay, bi, and straight people are unaffected by medical transition.

This is only true if for example lesbians find surgically reassigned ex. biological men sexually attractive.
There is strong evidence they don’t.
The Trans community persecution of lesbians for expressive that opinion, is one of the more disturbing traits of your creed.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

No, fool — the bigotries of other people change nothing about a transgender person’s sexual orientation.
“The Trans community persecution of lesbians for expressive that opinion, is one of the more disturbing traits of your creed.” <– No such things exists, moron, outside of objecting to lies.
Your lies.

Flibberti Gibbet
Flibberti Gibbet
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

No such things exists, moron, outside of objecting to lies.

When a classic non reassigned lesbian says she does not find a trans woman sexually attractive why would you claim that is a lie?
The persecution was documented on video during a gay pride march in Cardiff about 18 months ago. The police had to intervene because the trans contingent of the march started behaving aggressively towards the lesbians.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

“When a classic non reassigned lesbian says she does not find a trans woman sexually attractive why would you claim that is a lie?” <– Imbecile, I am saying that has nothing to do with it.
You have to demonstrate that actually cisgender lesbians are being “made” into straight men by FtM medical transition and that actually gay men are being “made” into MtF transgender women, for you to have a point.
You can’t, because you are only full of shit.
“The police had … towards the lesbians.” <– TERF bigots and lesbians are two different things. That an individual person is both is only incidental.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

I am very much looking forward to your efforts to prove that gay or lesbian adults “own” the bodies of children who meet the WPATH criteria for being transgender such that those adults have any rightful say in whether those youth begin medical transition as that criteria and desire of those youth indicate.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Are you saying lesbians have not been bullied for having no interest in men who transitioned to women? Even though a lesbian dating site was shut down for this very reason.

Flibberti Gibbet
Flibberti Gibbet
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

We can add the Australian women-only online app whose entrepreneurial young female founder has been hounded all the way to the High Court by Trans Activists.
The Aus case highlights the dangerous, vindictive hateful culture of the Trans community.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

It is not a women only app, it only some women — false advertising is a crime.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

No lesbians have been bullied because they are lesbians –and I am 100% certain you refer to to protests against TERF bigots who pretend transgender women are not women.

Aidan Trimble
Aidan Trimble
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Christ, you’re dreadful aren’t you ?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Aidan Trimble

I’m honest and knowledgeable. I can anticipate why you hate that.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

Where is your logical, factual reply?
EDIT: It is absent, of course.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

The mental gymnastics is breath taking – forcing boys to grow breasts. If you can’t see the delusion in this comment – and its utter unreality from biology – you have been completely washed over with ideology.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

You have the ideology here, I have facts. What makes someone a boy or girl, biologically, is how their brain has dimorphised while in the womb — every other criteria has a higher error rate. You want to prohibit transition for youth, that means you are trying to force some boys to have breasts and a period and to force some girls to have a beard and a deep voice.

Jae
Jae
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Good grief, no wonder we’re in such a mess when people believe they have all the answers, as you clearly do.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Jae

Imbecile, there are correct answers to be known — you just don’t like them.
What information do you see which you think proves me wrong?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

How are period, breasts, a beard and a deep voice mutilation? Please consult a dictionary.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Because moron, a boy does not want to have breasts or a period, a girl does not want to have a beard or a deep voice. I know you are a moron, because you need to be told that.

Ian L
Ian L
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Biological males are not girls. Biological females are not boys.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian L

No one says they are, but you are claiming the physical dimorphism of the lesser importance is paramount — it is not.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Why do you always use abusive language like “fool” or “moron” . Thought this comment section should consist of rational arguments, not of emotional outpourings … Give it a break! You lose your point by being so aggressive.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

Because there is no factual excuse whatsoever for what they are claiming, when I refer to them as fool or moron.
There is no possibility of any rational argument when one side is not rational, and Social Conservatives are not motivated by or caring of any facts at all.
The only thing they mean is to burn their witches.
And for that matter to abuse those children they think are worth only abuse.

Jae
Jae
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

One has to wonder if you actually read the article. If you did from your comments you didn’t read for understanding, but to be right. Possibly because you have supported this insanity and don’t like the high probability you were wrong to do so.

Please stop being hyperbolic. It is not “Forcing” to require that someone who wants to transition be of an age to carefully consider that monumental, irreversible decision. Try employing some nuance in your thinking. It’s a measure of maturity to recognize you may not have got everything right.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Jae

“It is not “Forcing” to require that someone who wants to transition be of an age to carefully consider that monumental, irreversible decision.” <– There is no nuance involved. Prohibiting people from interfering with the puberty of their birth sex, when they are transgender, is forcing them to undergo the puberty of their birth sex. there is no relvance to it being a “monumental, irreversible decision” when it is only a thing diagnostic criteria and personal choice ever result in more than 1 in 450 from considering it — and — of those who undertake it, less than 1% regret it.
“It’s a measure of maturity to recognize you may not have got everything right.” <– Then try it out yourself. You think you are unassailable in your opinions when in fact you are factless about the matter.

Diane Tasker
Diane Tasker
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

‘Give me a man at seven and I’ll give you the girl’ – the Trans movement inspired in their targeting of children by taking a cue from Aristotle in their zealous targeting of children, when you see them living the fairytale in their library space (I still can’t get my head around the fact that the Library Service thought that was ok???

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Diane Tasker

“‘Give me a … that was ok???” <– Not a possibility, no one’s gender or sexual orientation has been changed post-parturition. There is no “targeting” of children, it is merely a fact every transgender person was born that way, the same as ever cisgender person was born that way.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

1 in150? Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Where did that come from?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

From surveys of thousands of whom say they are transgender or not, of course.

Stuart Bennett
Stuart Bennett
2 months ago

Pretty sure I read this in Hannah Barnes book. It’s asserted from an academically questionable online survey where only about 1/3 of respondents identified as trans and all the respondents were self selecting.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

I’m pretty sure that doesn’t matter, exctlly because it is not any especially certain result — the point is it puts an low upper bound on the number of people who might transition.

Anna
Anna
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

First do no harm. Letting kids grow up in their unaltered bodies is not “forcing” anything. It’s allowing nature to take its course. Data show that 70-80% will desist before undertaking any medical intervention. Most are simply gay, which does not require any surgery or cross-sex hormones.

Stuart Bennett
Stuart Bennett
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Perkins returns for more contrarianism on a serious activist led medical scandal with made up numbers and the same nonsense about some amount of harm to vulnerable children due to negligence being acceptable.

Let me spell it out: The thing she’s sidestepping every time is that NO ONE wants to stop Trans people getting whatever medical treatment is appropriate for them.
What must be stopped is people who aren’t Trans getting irreversible Trans medical treatment. If nothing else the simplest reason she and the activist groups should be backing this 100% is that there are demonstrably kids who aren’t Trans taking up space in this totally overwhelmed medical pathway that could and should be there for those who actually need it. It is there for Trans people and I’m happy that something can be done to help them. It is not for unhappy/abused/lonely/neurodiverse kids who aren’t Trans but have come to believe that transition is the one stop salve for all their unhappiness.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

I have no made up numbers. You are making up the idea you have any evidence to the contrary.
You have no evidence of negligence.
“The thing she’s sidestepping every time is that NO ONE wants to stop Trans people getting whatever medical treatment is appropriate for them.” <– You are making up the idea they should not get the medical treatment appropriate for their problem — or –you are making up the idea that the WPATH standards of care do not represent what is appropriate.
“What must be stopped is people who aren’t Trans getting irreversible Trans medical treatment.” <– Not a rational desire, the error rate is already below 1%.
“If nothing else the simplest reason she and the activist groups should be backing this 100% is that there are demonstrably kids who aren’t Trans taking up space in this totally overwhelmed medical pathway that could and should be there for those who actually need it.” <– Which would be persuasive if there were any clear path forward to weed out that 1% earlier without harming the 99%. There is not.
I sidestep nothing — you are sidestepping the need for you to produce evidence in favor of what you are claiming.

Stuart Bennett
Stuart Bennett
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

That’s a really remarkably silly response. Did you ask ChatGPT to write it for you?

The trouble with saying only a small proportion of kids getting their minds and bodies damaged doesn’t require addressing is it opens the door to that same argument being employed by wider society in regards to people seeking transition. I don’t think it should by the way, as I stated earlier I am in favour of it. The thing is, proportionally to society, Trans people are about the same percentage of the rest of the population as are the number you claim are being harmed by the activist position on treatment. So that same logic could be employed by unsympathetic policy makers to cease all help for Trans people because the numbers are too small to care.

Everyone should get the help that’s appropriate for them. That’s all anyone who is concerned about this issue is suggesting.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

“The trouble with saying only a small proportion of kids getting their minds and bodies damaged doesn’t require addressing is it opens the door to that same argument being employed by wider society in regards to people seeking transition.” <– You have no excuse to presume it is damage, and no excuse to think the diagnostic criteria is ineffective, creating any large fraction of false positives.
“Everyone should get the help that’s appropriate for them.” <– And you have yet to be other than silly in thinking that is not what is happening per the current criteria.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I think if you were honest you would acknowledge that teenagers are very easily influenced by fashion and Internet memes. I don’t believe the statistics about regret at all.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I am honest, but know that peer pressure is nothing which leads to counselors operating per the WPATH standards of care being commonly fooled.
“I don’t believe the statistics about regret at all.” <– Not on the basis of any facts. That is you being dishonest.

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

You would allow 1000s of kids to mutilate, castrate themselves and lower their IQ, suffer life long depression and be subject to much higher death by suicide for the sake of a tiny number who might benefit. Your stats are BS – made up by motivated activists who are disproportionately sexual predators and self-harming autogynophiles with mental health issues

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

With such a low regret rate how comes there seems to be more and more stories like the above coming out? Perhaps following the Jo Phoenix case there might now be some rigorous academic study – rather than the demonstrably flawed meta study you like to quote.
The way detransitioners are treated by the trans community is an absolute disgrace – far worse than any trans person in a western country.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

Thomas Clark
Thomas Clark
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

The 1% rate comes from just one (Swedish) study of adult transitioners. The % does not apply to children. Scandalously little work has been done for child transitioners, but my expectation is that when it is done, the regret % is found to be much higher. This is because of observational evidence we have on the extent to which untreated dysphoria in adolescents self-resolves.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Thomas Clark

No, the <1% rate also comes from several other works, including the near 8000 patient one lead authored by Bustos — it includes those who began transitioning as youth.
“This is because of observational evidence we have on the extent to which untreated dysphoria in adolescents self-resolves.” <– There is no such high rate, Zucker is a fraud.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

The transgender movement is not about facts. It’s about ideology. I don’t feel the need to defend the obvious from the ideology of zealots. I’m a libertarian. Do whatever you want to your own bodies and raise your kids however you want to, but don’t force it on other people or proselytize in schools.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

No the pogrom the Social Conservative progressives launched against transgender people is the ideological movement. It is founded on the denial and deliberate ignorance of facts.
These facts, among others.
https://taliaperkinssspace.quora.com/People-are-born-transgender-they-are-not-mentally-ill-it-is-no-paraphilia-it-is-a-physical-birth-defect-no-more-a-men

Nathan Sapio
Nathan Sapio
2 months ago

Let’s credit Mondegreen with a phrase that could potentially change the dynamic of the whole debate:

“affirmed her self-rejection”

So-called gender affirming care is in reality the affirmation of self-rejection.

Tell a young person that and open their eyes. You don’t need to destroy your body with chemical or surgical alterations, you don’t need to obliterate yourself.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Sapio

People who actually are transgender and transition outnumber those who are not and mistakenly do so by 99 or more to 1. You are claiming that 1 person is worth more than the 99, and that the 99 should be forced accept what you are claiming is obliteration for those who regret it.
You are the monstrous child abuser here, as is Mondegreen and every person taking a Social Conservative progressive position on the topic.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Nathan Sapio

People who actually are transgender and transition outnumber those who are not and mistakenly do so by 99 or more to 1. You are claiming that 1 person is worth more than the 99, and that the 99 should be forced accept what you are claiming is obliteration for those who regret it.

You are the monstrous child abuser here, as is Mondegreen and every person taking a Social Conservative progressive position on the topic.

Seems like UnHerd wants no one to read that.

carl taylor
carl taylor
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

I certainly admire your dogged constancy in the face of all evidence to the contrary and your ill-informed twaddle on this issue being heavily voted down on this platform. You do realise that you exhibit all the hallmarks of being a deluded member of a cult? I wonder how you will react when the cognitive dissonance becomes too much and you realise all the harm you have been defending?

Bruce Buteau
Bruce Buteau
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

What’s the suicide rate in the trans community?

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Bruce Buteau

Lower by a factor of 4 if they receive proper gender affirming care, and approaching cisgender levels for youth so supported in transition from an early age.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
2 months ago

Th premier of Alberta announced this week plans to ban top and bottom surgery for children under 18, restrict the use of drugs and require schools to inform parents if their child, under the age of 16, requests pronoun changes.

Darlene Craig
Darlene Craig
2 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Yes and the hysterical response from our fearless opposition and various advocacy groups is something to behold. According to them, premier Smith is proposing this only because she is hateful and wants to destroy human rights. There could be no other reason and no other opposition is needed. And the coverage from the media is shameful. I think we are descended into madness!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
2 months ago
Reply to  Darlene Craig

None of the protests are grassroots. They are spearheaded by NGOs funded by the federal govt. So paid employees are organizing rallies to oppose legislation proposed by a provincial govt. The Edmonton rally had maybe 500 people – maybe. The paid employees who organize these events could probably count on that many friends, family and associates to turn out. NGOs desperately need to be regulated. They distort the political process and give the appearance of grassroots support, where there is none.

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
2 months ago

Teach teenagers to hate the way that they are, and you will sooner or later find out that teaching hate has consequences.

Andy Bell
Andy Bell
2 months ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Teenagers (or at least a large subset) have always hated their own bodies. It’s just a part of growing up. Uncritically affirming things doesn’t help in the slightest.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Andy Bell

Which has nothing to do with it, because gender is a physical, inborn characteristic.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

No, that is sex.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

No imbecile, sex is between the legs, and gender is between the ears.

Pyra Intihar
Pyra Intihar
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

If “sex is between the legs” and “gender is between the ears,” then why do trans-people want to change what is “between the legs”? Essentially the thinking that is “between the ears” (gender) should not dictate what is “between the legs” (sex).

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Pyra Intihar

Because it is a miserable situation to be a man with a vagina, breasts, and a period — it is a miserable situation to be a woman with a phallus, deep voice, and a beard.
The brain is the person and is supposed to be in charge.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

So nice that you respond to an alternative point of view in such a respectful way. I can almost hear your teeth gnashing!

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

It is a perfectly respectful response, rendering every trace of respect deserved.
“I can almost hear your teeth gnashing!”  <– Imagine what you lie, I know already you are deluded.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

No, sex and gender are both physical.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Teaching has nothing to do with it, and never has. No one can be taught to be a gender.

Pyra Intihar
Pyra Intihar
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

But you just said that “gender is between the ears.” This encompasses the brain, hence gender is a taught identity.

Martin Goodfellow
Martin Goodfellow
2 months ago
Reply to  Pyra Intihar

‘Gender’ theory is the new phrenology. It has a logic of its own that many people believe, but has no basis in fact. Unfortunately, those who incline to it feel insecure when it is questioned, and become defensive. Helping them out of their delusion is only possible if they become willing to question themselves.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

“‘Gender’ theory is the new phrenology. It has a logic of its own that many people believe, but has no basis in fact.” <– No moron, your sort here are the ones bereft of facts supporting you.
People who are attacked are defensive — you have no excuse for your attacks.
There is no delusion which you can name — and there is a reason why as one judge put it in their ruling, “you are charlatans”.
You are frauds, the delusions involved are all yours.
https://taliaperkinssspace.quora.com/People-are-born-transgender-they-are-not-mentally-ill-it-is-no-paraphilia-it-is-a-physical-birth-defect-no-more-a-men
That is a link to a very partial but quite representative list of facts which deny you. You will have no substantive riposte.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Pyra Intihar

No imbecile, what is between the ears is physical objective anatomy, biology. You will produce no evidence it can be taught, because it can’t be.
If it could be, David Reimer would have happily been Joan.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Pyra Intihar

Nonsense, most of what the brain is is nothing taught, only it is as grown.

Mark Cornish
Mark Cornish
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

It’s a social contagion; obviously.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Mark Cornish

And in reality, the rate at which people seek medical transition stabilized over 5 years ago and regret rates have declined from 5%+ to under 1%.
No social contagion.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/no-social-contagion-gender-transition

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
2 months ago

I’m cynical enough to think it’s mainly about money. Western countries’ health systems can’t afford it and you can be sure a goodly % of the folks lining up & screeching about their concerns certainly don’t intend to fund their own transitions.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Then advocate for the end of the NHS, an end to socialized medicine.

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
2 months ago

“what has gone wrong in the field of gender medicine” – well, this is indeed an important question. Basically, those who have the responsibility to seek the truth have simply refused to actually do any seeking of truth, and have yielded to the psychotic delusions of those who think they are trans, who are in need of validation of their psychotic delusion. There are also the large number of medical quacks, like Joanna Cohen-Kennedy at UCLA, who make millions off of the butchery of children in service of this psychotic delusion.
There is truth out there. And there are and have always been psychotically deluded people. What trans has done is to rope off a subset of the psychotically deluded, and call them “normal variation”. This has allowed this delusion to be promulgated due to heavy pressure from trans activists, and due to the feckless and cowardly unwillingness of supposed experts to distinguish justification from truth.
In 10 years, when the wave of trans who have been made stupid with puberty blockers, who have surgically mutilated themselves, who have alienated parents and families, wake up at 2 AM and ask “What have I done to myself?” Then a reconning will commence, and it will be a truly terrible one.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

Debunking every point the bigoted idiot claims has already been done.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/debunked-misleading-nyt-anti-trans

Ian L
Ian L
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

Lol. The commenters above are dead right about you.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Ian L

No, I am right about them — they have no facts supporting them to bring to the table.

Ex Nihilo
Ex Nihilo
2 months ago

Abigail Shrier’s book, Irreversable Damage, is a must-read by anyone concerned about this issue, Ms. Schrier is no intellectual lightweight; AB Columbia, BPhil Oxford, JD Yale. She has taken massive abuse for her brave reporting on the topic and was in the vanguard of those advocating caution.

I predict that in the next decade there will be legions of lawsuits brought by regretful victims who were transitioned as children. Transitioning children in childhood is supported by the Medical and Psychology establishments but so was frontal lobotomy as a treatment for schizophrenia in the twentieth century. The Nobel Prize in Medicine was awarded to Dr. Antonio Moniz who pioneered lobotomy for mental illness. The imprimatur of the medical establishment should never–absent carefully accumulated unbiased evidence–validate an intervention, especially if those advocating it also profit from it or have non-scientific agendas.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Ex Nihilo

“Ms. Schrier is no intellectual lightweight” <– She is a very serious fraud — what you call abuse is criticism of her fraud which she can not answer.

carl taylor
carl taylor
2 months ago
Reply to  Talia Perkins

You are Titania McGrath and I claim my five pounds.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  carl taylor

You are a troll in it for the LOLs and virtue signalling, without virtue.

Ex Nihilo
Ex Nihilo
2 months ago

Abigail Shrier’s book, Irreversable Damage, is a must-read by anyone concerned about this issue, Ms. Schrier is no intellectual lightweight; AB Columbia, BPhil Oxford, JD Yale. She has taken massive abuse for her brave reporting on the topic and was in the vanguard of those advocating caution. 
I predict that in the next decade there will be legions of lawsuits brought by regretful victims who were transitioned as children. Transitioning children in childhood is supported by the Medical and Psychology establishments but so was frontal lobotomy as a treatment for schizophrenia in the twentieth century. The Nobel Prize in Medicine was awarded to Dr. Antonio Moniz who pioneered lobotomy for mental illness. The imprimatur of the medical establishment should never–absent carefully accumulated unbiased evidence–validate an intervention, especially if those advocating it also profit from it or have non-scientific agendas.

Bruce Thorne
Bruce Thorne
2 months ago

If the transgender lobby was balanced and mature, it would deal bravely with the issue and incidence of detransitioning. Instead, it tries to hush it up, dismiss it and suppress data-gathering. So we now have the medical outrage of detransitioners not being known as such to the clinics that treated them.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Bruce Thorne

“If the transgender lobby was balanced and mature, it would deal bravely with the issue and incidence of detransitioning.” <– It already does, pointing out those who detransition claiming it was all a mistake are less than 1% of those who detransition.
Mondegreen and apparently you represent the frauds who claim otherwise.

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
2 months ago

Ms. Mondegreen,
It’s nice to know that other intelligent and reasonable people are still reading the NYTimes.
Thanks

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
2 months ago

Pamela Paul is not a reporter; she has a weekly column. She has a reputation for writing controversial columns where she says things everyone else is afraid to.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago

Mondegreen, you have yet to post any factual citations supporting your claimed opinions.
Why is this so difficult for you, to plainly refute this:
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/debunked-misleading-nyt-anti-trans

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
2 months ago

The only explanation I can find for the continued acceptance of such destructive clinical voodoo is a creed that plays on the intellectual gullibility of young(ish) college students, the need of academics to prop up the cultural Left, and what the likes of Peterson describe as the good-heartedness or kindliness of women to give so much leeway to radical Queer politics.
Otherwise, this is another nice piece and the writer’s style evolves with every new text, congrats.

Talia Perkins
Talia Perkins
2 months ago
Reply to  Tyler Durden

You are only looking for an explanation you like, the facts do not suit you.

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
2 months ago

Braver? It’s a strange world where common sense is brave

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
2 months ago

New York is controlled by the left and that is killing it , so many Republicans have fled from the city already and it is painfully obvious to anyone with a brain that the Democrats have damaged and are destroying the city .

Peter Samson
Peter Samson
2 months ago

Could Unherd please give break to a discussion of transgender issues, or at least reduce the frequency of pieces on the subject? Among the world’s problems and concerns, transsexuality is not near the top of the list. Once a month would seem to be more than adequate to cover this subject.

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter Samson

I disagree Peter.
This is a political movement which is undermining some of the most fundamental truths on which our society and culture is built.
In the process it is undermining the application of law and justice, the rights of women, acceptance of homosexuality and the safeguarding and nurture of children.
It seeks to return us to a pre Enlightenment state where souls and religions take precedence over science and reality, where accusations of heresy and blasphemy are used to justify totalitarian attitudes and behaviours.
Ignoring it as trivial or a passing fad has allowed it to flourish in the shadows and played right into its hands. It now permeates our public institutions, our education system and our corporations. It wants you to pay it no mind, it wants us to look the other way. It should be a matter that is allowed no cover and that we devote critical scrutiny to until everyone is aware of the danger it poses.

Justin S
Justin S
2 months ago

Trans pretending people are mentally ill people. It’s a dysmorphia, a mental illness.

They need clinical psychological help yes, BUT they should not be indulged in their fantasies.

Society does not owe them that indulgence. Why should the entire human race indulge lies and fake personalities?