January 1, 2021 - 11:00am
Symbols of English dominance still haunt the Welsh landscape, most vividly the Iron Ring of Castles built by Edward I. To some, including the actor-turned-campaigner Michael Sheen, the heir to the throne’s title of the Prince of Wales is another reminder of the “tortured history” we share with the English and British states. Sheen’s call for the title to be abolished from its current use by a British royal after Prince Charles ascends to the throne is supported by many in the invigorated Welsh nationalist movement.
Tywysog Cymru, Prince of Wales, was the title many of the medieval Welsh leaders proclaimed to be their own, including Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, who was acknowledged as Prince of Wales by Henry III after the Treaty of Montgomery. The death of the last native prince in 1282, after being declared a rebel by Edward I, still haunts the imagination of Welsh nationalists. What happened next is well-documented: Llywelyn’s head was exhibited over the gate of the Tower of London, while the nation he left behind became a conquered people.
So the actor is right to claim that Edward I indeed stamped his authority on his conquered people by investing his son as prince — but a more nuanced perspective would acknowledge how the conquest ushered in an embryonic Welsh official class that were influential in the king’s decision-making. Sheen is also correct that the ancient past still ignites strong emotions among the Welsh, as the recent furore which surrounded the naming of the Severn Crossing as the Prince of Wales Bridge demonstrated.
But do the Welsh really agree with their celebrated actor to get rid of the Tywysogin its current form altogether? UnHerd’s 2019 polling on monarchy suggests not, although there were several parts of Wales increasingly disaffected with the institution. The Prince has personally been warmly embraced by our people, especially after he set up his Welsh base at Llwynywermod and his work with Welsh organisations and charities. Rather ironically, he received his most recent publicity boost in Wales when The Crown documented his attempts to learn the language at Aberystwyth.
For much of the Welsh, the British royal family allows them to celebrate Welshness right at the top of our society. The 1911 investiture, masterminded by the showman David Lloyd George, and the 1969 ceremony in Caernarfon, gave Wales a global platform. Much has changed in Wales and Britain since then, of course. Growing nationalist sentiment and the ever probable break-up of the union might demand a new type of role for the Prince of Wales in the next decade, and perhaps in the future there will be one fluent in our native language once again.
Only some nationalists, such as the former Plaid Cymru leader Lord Elis-Thomas, have been willing to engage in a serious debate on the role of the Prince of Wales. This is a stark contrast to the traditionally royalist approach of the SNP. It is an issue Welsh nationalists need to confront in the months ahead; after all even if an independent Wales is achieved, the public would prefer a monarchy over a republic.
So although Sheen has emerged as an unofficial spokesperson in the eyes of many for a radical new nation, he does not speak for the people of Wales on this matter.
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SubscribeAnd who the hell is Michael Sheen?
He’s got a Twitter account, so clearly an expert ….
Let’s be honest MS spends most of his time and money on the USA not in Wales. He does not speak for us and he has no right to speak for us.
Not true,now back in his home town of Port Talbot,and even a cursory scan of what he has done in Wales,shows what a lazy and well ignorant comment that is.
#righteous
#betterthanyou
#imclever
Very childish,so I’ll respond in a similar style ,pot kettle black,twpsin!
Given you have access to Internet you should have been able to look him up. Or were you trying to be funny?
Well done Claire – clever girl.
Thank you.
Let be honest about Wales, I bear the country and its people no animosity but here are a couple of home truths:
1) Separated from the Union, would exactly would Wales’ economy be based on? No seriously – natural resources? Financial services? Heavy industry? Tourism??? Come on. What would their currency be – the Welsh Pound?
2) Separatism notwithstanding (I totally understand the impulse) once Wales gets independence or a republic or whatever, what then? Where is the vision? Where is the patrimony, history or culture? Will this solve ANY distinctly Welsh problems? Serious question, welcoming answers.
3) The language is dying (probably a bad thing, but then it is their responsibility) but without it there is almost no practical reason to claim
being a distinct nation within the United Kingdom. It’s not like the Welsh have a distinct style of clothing, physical appearance or religion.
Likewise bearing only goodwill, this is spot on.
Until the UK government can help finance Wales building a thriving offshore energy industry, plus Silicon Valleys, then now is really not the time.
The Welsh are also not dumb enough to fall for virtue-signalling publicity stunts …
Only spot on if you have an ignorant anglocentric world view.Was giving a lecture ,realising that what he was going to say have him two options make it an accept the shitstorm the twitterati would give him of hypocrisy ,he returned his award ,I call that principled,then I’m old enough to still recognise them!Healsi didn’t announce it and gain publicity,only when an interviewer , months later mentioned it and broached the “hypocrisy” issue did he explain what he did.But why let facts get in the way of your pre judging world view!
Anglocentric, eh? What language are you typing in? In case you didn’t realise, you faux-intellectual muppet, Wales is a part of the Anglosphere. Indeed, one of the core nations of the Anglosphere.
Language is about communication Aaron,to ease communication with you I use your language,I did make an assumption that you wouldn’t understand Welsh ,was I wrong?Faux intellectual? Mmm I’m not an intellectual faux or real,the being part of the “Anglosphere” duh of course,how that sphere was achieved is important though.
What publicity stunt?
Oh Claire you know that slow burn publicity stunt ,when you do something on principal,tell no one for three years ,then mention it ,when asked if his honour didn’t make him a hypocrite!That kind of publicity stunt I mean he obviously needs it lol!
I know. People are scraping around for ammunition to attack a man who acted on his principles!! I wanted them to tell me what they meant. They haven’t replied so they can’t.
They have a lot of water and it rains night and day. A number of English cities need that water, some in fact even ‘own’ it for now.
However if Blodwyn Pig & Co take over, there could be trouble ahead.
Thank you Mr Blair!
Blodwyn Pig!!
I thought there was only me left who had ever heard of them.
To be honest I think the original band would do a sight better job of it than the present incumbents!
‘Ahead Rings Out’. Great stuff!
Ah, memories!
Point 3. Its not just a welsh responsibility for language. Its a british language and thw UK government have to offer opportunity for it to be used rather than subjugated. This was the case until 1993 when a 500 year law was changed. Its not dying ita growing – particularly in younger people. Its also incoming migration responsibility to recognise that some communities converse mainly in welsh for day to day activities suxh as work and home life. If they are unwilling to accept or understtand this “because they can speak English” is a vapid and illogical argument because most Norwegians speak English but we do not demand they let go of their language. To me, pushing it back to wales to sort out and then making it difficult to use is handicapping its growth. It would seem to me, at least anti British to let such an long standing British language and peoples way if life fade away when we can do something about it. Finally, arguments against wakes and its language typically come from people (commonly im england) who never lived in wales, visted, or speak welsh assume they understand wales and its language. Just my two pennies as an observer niw living in wales
It will never be accepted as a British language because a lot of people in these Isles have no concern for it’s history or cultures. There is a saying that says history is written by the victors. Sadly that’s the case in this very fractured island.
It’s in every British passprt for heaven’s sake. Look, it’s sad to see a language die – a whole world of thought and expression goes extinct, never to return.
The problem with Wales is that this is a longstanding trend going back centuries, with a slight chance of revival if there is the following:
a) Welsh nationalism (complete with clear definitions of who is Welsh and who isn’t)
b) an actual border between Wales/England,
c) a dogged refusal to speak English in the home and to only run schools, council meetings, Welsh Parliament, news services, public announcements, etc. in Welsh ONLY, complete with a flowering of Welsh music, cinema and literature.
None of which seems even remotely likely to me – but please let me be wrong. Demographics guarantee that Welsh (a minority language in Wales since 1911) will be replaced completely with English as the only spoken tongue.
Centuries is a bit of a stretch,in terms of % the big change was the industrial revolution,and most of that reduction came from immigration from the West country of England and Ireland.Welsh is now the fastest growing.language in Europe,I don’t exclusively speak Welsh my wife is Scottish,my children bi- lingual.Historical side note, English soldiers did all of those things during the conquest and a couple of centuries after.Earlier on today said I was leaving this herd, because that’s what it is really,so nos da Aaron wish I could say it was a pleasure,it was interesting ,confirmed a few things I thought about a certain type of supercilious person so thanks for that.
? You so don’t know what you’re talking about yet you continue. Everyone knows how to speak English in Wales for decades and do regularly. Like Catalunya, Belgium, the Basque Country, Switzerland etc etc Wales has become a bi-lingual nation. In the 1960s there was indeed a fear the Welsh language would die out but with Welsh language radio and TV and the return to Welsh medium schooling Welsh is thriving. Remember there were generations who were not allowed to speak or learn in Welsh. Now 25% of primary and 20% of Secondary school students are at entirely Welsh medium schools. This has only happened in the last few decades and means there is a whole new generation of Welsh speakers, and this can be seen in the explosion of Welsh language culture particularly music. Just listen to Cymru.FM
Wow Anglo centric ignorance at its best/worst!
1.There are 10 small European countries with a smaller GDP than Wales that cope admirably.Too many companies to list,natural resources fair point centuries of exploitation left those seams dry ,Water will probably in the next decade become more of a world resource.Currency,anyone we want really,for me pound euro or our own our choice really
2.Independence would allow for an outward vision ,not the insular decaying empire world view that dominates thought in England.Patrimony ,my god! That’s the core issue for many of us ,the British education system has played the empire narrative for so long and not taught our history .Our culture is different ,can only speak personally but lived in England ,Scotland and a few Balkan countries.Listing them in order of where I felt most “at home” places England lowest.Distinctly Welsh problems? Missing the point even if the problems are the same it’s a distinctive Welsh response that’s the key.
3.You’re about 20 years out of date with the “dying language” quote,we are worldwide,almost the go to example of re invigorating a language ,and are well on the way to hitting the Welsh Senedd aim of one million speakers.Language our responsibility? Oh come on either that’s an ignorance of our nation’s history ( quite possibly) or it’s just a facetious comment.We were not allowed by our occupiers to use our language in court untill 1967! We were not granted official.status as a UK language untill 2011 despite our language being spoken on these islands longer than the mongrel pigeon German/French/Latin and Greek( English to you) spoken by our neighbors.Im not particularly religious but if you had to pick a national religion it would be non conformist chapel,so distinct from Anglicanism.Already gone on to long but remember everybody can have an opinion on any subject,but the value of the opinion is weighed,on the knowledge behind it.The pointer on your scales is showing zero.
Put it to the vote. I think a Welsh independence referendum would be a good thing. And written into the legislation supporting that referendum should be a clause stating that if independence is declined by a majority, a minimum 30 year gap before another referendum for independence to stop the kind of whining shown by our brothers and sisters in the SNP.
Mmm it wouldn’t though would it,for it to retain force under the current UK situation, it would have to be done by Westminster.If support grew during that period ,an edict passed in England would if anything have only a positive effect for us wanting Independence.You call the SNP whiners ,very adult,and showing no knowledge of the issues raised by Brexit.It doesn’t suprise me English/British nationalism is really the only negative form of nationalism on these isles,as it promotes a faux exeptionalism and and aggressive ignorance.
So putting the question of independence to the Welsh people would be wrong? Isn’t that how democracy works?
The SNP had their vote and are now whining that it didn’t go their way. It’s not me who’s refusing to be adult about this. If the referendum had been marginally for independence, are you suggesting that the Scottish people could vote every 5 years to rejoin the UK if the polls at any one time showed there was popular support for it?
No of course not I want that,putting the 30 year restriction is what I oppose.The people of Scotland had their vote yes,one of the main platforms of the remain argument was Scotland would then be outside the EU, and how terrible this would be for Scotland.We then had Brexit ,if you can’t see how this changes the whole position ,I honestly despair.
And by voting to remain in the UK means that the Scottish people have to abide by any vote the majority within the UK make, whether that’s to leave the EU or any other tinpot neoliberal corporate club. That’s democracy. You still haven’t answered my question: If the Scottish/Welsh people had voted/do vote for independence, are you seriously suggesting they would be given the choice to vote to rejoin the UK if there was majority regret for having left as and when that arose, no matter how close to any referendum that returned an independence majority?
If not, why not?
And if you think it’s ok to have a referendum on independence every few years in finitum until a majority vote for it, who is going to foot the bill for these referendums?
It is ok fore as unlike Scotland we were never members of this union by choice( Scottish posters ,I am aware of the nuances but in purely legal terms Scotland”joined” the Union)So honestly we can have as many votes as we like ,and as an independent country over want to rejoin and that was accepted by England ,that would be our choice,those are the key words our choice Pete not yours!We were not members of this union by choice we are a conquered nation that has been fighting a forced assimilation culturally and linguistically for centuries the fact we remain essentially..,different, is a tribute to our national psyche.We survive I will translate for you the words of a famous Welsh song “Despite everything and everyone we are still here!” I don’t really care what Brit NAT apologists think tbh, a lifetime listening to the justification for this abusive relationship,called the union means I tend to zone out when xenophobic English supremacists prattle on.
You really do need to take a course in grammar
Be kind, English can be a tough second language.
Dwi’n gywir, Keith?
Gywir iawn Aaron,with regard to Grammar it is awfully complicated, historically due to the change from French as the language of the Royal court to English,at the time it didn’t have an accepted Grammar and to create one they shoehorned the grammar they were familiar with ,French,Latin,and Greek and because of this created one of the most confusing grammars in Europe.I worked with many translators and language assistants in the Balkans,who almost 100% said the first word they learned to hate in English was except!The reason being, it appears in so many grammar rules in English,they would always say so it’s not really a rule then! Not dissing the language ,all languages have foibles.Laugh a bit when my grammar is criticised.I mean one of the reasons English is so popular is the ease with which it can be spoken poorly,yet still be understood.
Except you don’t “zone out” do you? You spend your time arguing for something the majority of Welsh people don’t want. I’m not a Brit nationalist. I’d be happy for Wales to go it alone, if that’s what the Welsh people wanted. I just don’t want to fund the temper tantrums of a tiny handful of bigots every couple of years.
Seems to me there’s been a lot of temper tantrums on the other side too. It really isn’t one-sided and if you can’t see that then you are not ‘thinking again’. Bigotry both sides too. So much for having a discussion. Mr Evans has put forward a few valid points and has been heavily criticised for doing so because it doesn’t fit the herd mentality ironically enough.
What valid points has he put across?
Oh do I have to go back through it all? b****r there goes my evening’s TV viewing. Look there have been a few particularly unhelpful comments from some commentators. I wasn’t singling you out. You have made some interesting points. But as far as I can see Mr Evans has tried to put across an argument – a lot of which I agree with. I for the record am an advocate for a united kingdom but one that fully accepts and respects the cultures, history and viewpoints of all the nations. Sadly in the 8 months I’ve been following Unherd I am beginning to question my belief in a united kingdom. As I said before you have not been vitriolic and have engaged but sadly there are many clichéd and narrow-minded responses on here. That is why I took exception to your temper tantrums comments. They weren’t. I’m sensing Mr Evans frustration and I am starting to feel it myself. I swore not yo follow Unherd anymore and I should have stuck to it. There is no place for discussion on here once one’s views are so obviously different ftom the herd. Disappointed yet again.
I merely asked you to point out the valid points, as I couldn’t see any. Sorry to disturb your evening.
OK. I’ll try and do a review at some point. The language is one. It is increasing and during lockdown according to Duo lingo it was most studied language on it’s app. So the dying language cliche is not correct. He is right about opportunities to use it. I think you clash on independence referendums. I think 30 years is too long. There may be a better method. He’s just saying that there is not enough debate about Wales as an entity and I agree. Water could be a massive asset for Wales. I’m not an economist and have no hope of ever being one so can’t argue massively on that. I know we’re seen as a burden by England but was that the case when the mines were in full swing ditto steel and other manufacturing? Lots of issues here but he is definitely not having a temper tantrum – just sticking up for a country he loves. And so do I.
Ok, I have no problem with the Welsh language nor do I think it’s dead or dying. Having said that, the only person I’ve ever heard criticise the reintroduction of the Welsh language as a mandatory subject in schools is a mate of mine from Aberfan, not anyone from England.
Fair comment on there not being enough debate about Wales as an entity.
I personally don’t see Wales as a burden, and if anyone does surely they’d be more than happy with Welsh independence?
That’s the irony I’m finding. As I said before I was not having a go at you for your views apart from temper tantrums. Anyway MC is on my case again. Ho hum here we go again.
Tell me one bigoted thing I’ve said,and just because you don’t accept what you are( brit nat) doesn’t mean you aren’t.
I didn’t call you a bigot. Read my comment again. I honestly don’t know any English people who hate the Welsh, but I know a few Welsh nationalists who hate the English. That’s pretty bigoted in my opinion. Please explain to me how I’m a Brit nationalist, I seem to be missing something.
Your comments obviously come from a British exeptionalism place ,might be hard for you to see,it’s one of those things that maybe outsiders see better.Im I guess one of the “tiny handful of bigots”because I’m a nationalist and don’t know any bigots.”Hate the English” ,I know English people I hate,I know certain English attitudes I hate,I hate that my country is dominated by an English run parliament.These are all common statements I could make.None of them mean I hate English people and that’s how the nationalists I know are ,and I would bet I know a fair few more than you.However I’ve never met the ones that switch to Welsh when you walk into a pub either!
That’s just ridiculous. That would be like me saying “your comments obviously come from a Welsh exceptionalism place. It might be hard for you to see, it’s maybe one of those things that outsiders see better.” It means nothing and can’t be argued against as there’s no tangible evidence for or against it. You might as well talk of “gut feeling”.
Most Welsh people are great, I don’t dispute that. I used to play in a band from Splott/St. Mellons in Cardiff, and another band from Newport and the blokes in the bands were spot on. However, there were a few hangers on that used to make snide comments about me being English constantly, and not in a jokey way either. I’ve never heard those sorts of comments to my Welsh mates living in England.
Fair point about the way I phrased it,my reading of the way you comment ,sees it as being for the status quo,and seeing this as the baseline for want of a better word “good”,as for snide comments,I lived 15 years in the South east of England,it would not be an exaggeration to say I heard one daily.Oh and before you reply, I did point them out and then came the “chippy” comments,so two for one!I could say maybe the comments directed at you were more noticeable I would be interested if your Welsh mates have the same opinion on this,I mean even low level sheep shagger,can’t believe they’ve never heard that!
Point taken on ‘sheep shagger’! I have heard Welsh mates call themselves that too! I don’t mind banter though, if I’d had people joking with me then that’s fine. Openly saying a Welsh band shouldn’t have an English guitarist is something else though. I could even take the Sesame Street “one of these is not like the others” singalong. Water off a duck’s back. 😉
I agree that the comment is extremely petty. But not all Welsh people think that way.
Oh I’ve heard it sadly especially in the last few years. Actually my mother 60 years ago was told to go back to her Cave and stop taking English jobs. But I agree the Welsh can be their own worst enemy at times. As I said before bigotry on both sides which stifles debate.
I zone out to your illegitimate and ignorant comments,and the mentality that spouts them.I will always argue my point ,just wish the other side could use real facts and not the fairytale ones you for example espouse.To go back to your bigot allegation, the main difference between Welsh and British nationalism is mine does not believe in an inherent superiority,just an inherent difference
You keep calling me a nationalist, yet I couldn’t give two sh*ts if Wales went it alone or not, I’m just fed up with fools trying to stir up animosity in the pursuit of their goals. My family is made up of people from all areas of the British Isles (grandparents – Rose-England, Hughes-Wales, Paton-Scotland, Yeats-Ireland) and I still have family living in all areas who I communicate with on a regular basis. I have no animosity for those who want independence, I’m just bored to tears with the haters.
Yet you never show examples of hate,you just assume wanting to separate means hate.
And you are members of this union by choice. If there was even halfway to a majority for independence in Wales, you can bet your life on the Welsh Assembly holding a referendum. There just isn’t the interest.
No, sorry to be a pedant but our membership was forced,you can’t deny that surely,you can argue,that the general consensus is that this is the status quo,and feel unable to change it.And no you can’t bet your life on the Senedd voting for a referendum,the devolved governments are always assumed by English people to have been created as a sop to Nationalist,in reality they were an attempt to dilute nationalism.It was working well untill Labours monumental collapse in Scotland.Recent polls suggest about 30% in favour of independence,this is the same figure the SNP started with at the beginning of their referendum.Having Boris in charge has been tremendous for Welsh nationalism ,as in pandering to his UKIP lite base ,with his “British exeptionalism” bs he creates more and more recruits.
I can’t lie to you about your chances, but you have my sympathies.
20 years seems more prudent to me.
Da iawn. Very well put. I was about to reply but your response has been spot on. Diolch.
You are very quick at labelling people ignorant and yet your grammar is atrocious….
Fair point Andrew,operating in my second language,so please forgive my odd errors.Im sure your written Welsh would be perfect! And really grammar nazi is soooo passé,and usually is used when no other arguments are available.Also my use of the word ignorant is correct,you can be grammatically perfect and still be ignorant.You can have a poor grasp of a complicated and basically nonsense set of grammar rules borrowed from at least three other languages and shoehorned to create “English grammar”,and still have a grasp of the facts at issue, and hence not be “ignorant”
See my comment above Keith. Wales is a part of the
Anglosphere. Deal with it. But just for fun, lets look at your answers (you at least tried – fair play):
1) Please pick the euro – but only if we can have a hard border with Wales 😉 oh go on! It’ll be fun. Coz the EU will totally respect little Wales.
2) Poorly written but I get where you’re coming from. There is much to be said in simply being able to do it your way, I cannot object to that.
3) “Occupiers”, oh dear we have a LARPer. You going to march on Westminster? Are your women routinely raped by English soldiers while your children beaten if caught using Welsh? Even the Elizabethans didn’t try to surpress Welsh, they translated religious books like the BCP into the native’s tongue – which surpised me. And as for Engish being a mongrel language, well, it’s easy to be a pure language when almost nobody worldwide speaks it. Is there a Welsh Shakespeare, Thomas Cranmer, Milton or Tennyson? And it is English to you too, you do speak it fluently almost exclulsively I’m sure. There is no Welsh UnHerd.
Also from your comment you have no religion, yet another reason why Welsh won;t last when the funding dries up to keep it on life-support. You need to have Scriptures and prayers in your own language to resurrect it should the time be right – just ask the Israelis.
As for 1967 law, it is right that Welsh should be able to be used in court (these days we allow Urdu, Hindi and God knows what, but you can kinda see why they wouldn’t have wanted it enouraged, right? Practically speaking?
Welsh unherd,I don’t know ,I don’t normally look for Welsh forums full of arseholes pontificating on subjects they know nothing about.Im sure however they exist.Plenty of Welsh writers throughout history ,of course a lack of an empire probably means they are not as well known.
So what does a particular nation look like then? How do different neighbouring nations dress differently. Religion? A lot of European countries and Latin American are Catholic. So religion defines your nationality does it? And your physical appearance? Look if you don’t know what Wales is I suggest you use the internet to look it up!!!
The welsh language is certainly not dying. You cannot have visited Ynys Mon or the the Llyn Peninsula!
? What a load of horseshit. Welsh as a language is thriving, not dying! And you ask ‘Where is the patrimony, history or culture’?!? Hilarious! You clearly no nothing of Wales yet you felt you should respond? Bizarre.
Do ‘the Welsh’ really like Charles? I have no connections with Wales, other than some friends and acquaintances (and a daughter who went to university there.) Most of them seem to have the same opinion of Charles as the rest of us brits : he’s a berk. Well meaning but deeply flawed, anguished and arrogant, but divorced from reality and utterly irrelevant to the lives of the plebs. It’s unfortunate that he had useless parents, was not liked at school and from reports I have heard at first hand, not liked at university (even though he wasn’t there for long!) and not liked in the navy. His (first) wife was not much of a fan either!
It seems therefore that there are only feeble grounds for imagining that ‘the Welsh’ – a grouping so wide as to be meaningless – might be anything other than indifferent to him.
Poor old Charles – redundant and unloved, and a man whose existence can be summed up in a slogan from a bumper sticker : “Jesus loves you – everyone else thinks you’re a prat.”
Love it Fred!
nul
nul
nul
Well I love wales, I saw the movie about the white whale 10 times. Oh, apologies – you mean Wales? Lovely countryside spoilt only by the Welsh.
I served on a “ton” class minesweeper the same time Charles was the skipper of the Bronington. I knew some of the crew. He had the respect of the wardroom and the lower mess decks. He was an amiable and competent Naval Officer, liked by those who served with him.
That the Welsh dislike virtually anything English – your little rant says more about you Fred. Your bumper sticker would be “Dear Lord, please help me to keep my mouth shut until I know what I am talking about”
Oddly enough I too served on a ‘Ton’ class minesweeper. And while I didn’t know any of the crew of Bronington except for one officer who was a friend, I was firmly under the impression that Charles was constantly watched by his No1 in case he made any monumental errors. Fair enough, but the general view was that he was far from comfortable in that role and would never have made it to skipper had he been other than royalty.
Why not cut to the chase? Wales is on a path to more devolution and to a destination it hasn’t worked out yet. So lets look at this. The issue for Wales and Scotland is whether to go for Dominion Status, the path which most nations/colonies in the British Empire followed. Dominion Status means something like self-rule, with the consent of Westminster. The question then is what links between the Dominion and London remain, because some will. Defence is one link, possible. Currency is another debatable. Conduct of Foreign Policy is well within the capacity of a Dominion. The experience of Dominions is that they often keep the Monarchy, for two linked reasons. Keeping the Queen gives emotional continuity to those who need it, and it keeps the “family” feeling ie cultural common ground. And allows us to avoid war, important thinking of Ireland. Alex Salmond got on well with the Royal Family, though this did not stop the Queen “purring” when Indyref failed. But keeping the Monarchy is a reasonable decision for Scotland to make and won’t stop their Indy/Dominion Status, a big advance. Wales faces the same problem, or would if it did much forward thinking. I’m a Republican but I would expect a Welsh Constitutional Convention to follow the Scotland approach. Ditching the Queen is not a hill I’d die on. If keeping the Queen facilitated more Indy for Wales any sensible Welsh voter should take the deal. Works for AUS, doesn’t it?
A reasonable approach and one I’m surprised to find amongst republicans, kudos.
Given the tiny majority in the 1997 referendum that resulted in devolution in the first place, combined with the generally acknowledged under-performance of the Welsh Assembly / Senedd in all areas apart from its promotion of the Welsh language, why do you state as a fact that “Wales is on a path to more devolution”? I can’t say that I’ve heard any enthusiasm for more independence from Westminster, especially if this implies cutting off the financial drip-feed that keeps the public sector-dominated Welsh economy alive.
Exactly Sir, well said.
Wales, like Scotland and Northern Ireland, hangs round the neck of the English taxpayer like a putrefying Albatross.
We should cease the ludicrous subsidies, to these pretentious parasites with immediate effect.
Thanks to C-19 and Brexit, we can no longer afford such ephemeral ‘luxuries’.
And the isle of Man, the Channel Islands, and maybe even Cornwall. Do it right.
Well the first two more than pay for themselves, and there maybe a problem with Cornwall as it is a summer playground for the inhabitants of Quislington.
What are you talking about? Wales is not some 3rd world hand out nation. Before devolution wales gets a block grant and post devolution ita gets a block grant. Tax payers living in wales pay into UK treasury, too and like any other region in england, including devolved london government all receive block grant funding to operate. Understand how UK works first before spewing vile crap that british citizens are puterfying albatrosses or parasites. Devolution is a unionist project to administer funds in specific areas – it is not an independence movement. And i hope your disdain is also targeted at londons devolved government.
What pathetic invective! I cannot believe you don’t know the facts, and prefer to “spew” out hysterical nationalists piffle.
Anyway to refresh your memory, currently per capita social spending in England is £ 9,604 (3% below national average), Wales is £ 10,929 (10% above national average), Scotland, a whopping £11,566 (17% above national average) and finally Northern Ireland, an astronomical £ 11,987 (21% above national average).
(Comment :The threat of violence pays!)
Why should England subsidies you wretched people to such an extent?Is there not poverty enough in Burnley, Hull, Nelson, Preston and Sunderland for example?
You are probably to you young to remember the ‘English cottage’ burning campaign of 1979-90, when more that 200 English owned holiday cottages were ‘torched’ in Wales. So pathetic was the Welsh Constabulary’s response that there was only one successful prosecution!
In 1980, the BBC, to its credit had a comedy show entitled ” Not the Nine O’clock News”. It ran a short piece ” Come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in Wales”.
Centuries ago Ecfrith of Hereford intoned “Taffy was a Welshman,Taffy was a thief, came inside my house, and stole a side of beef”. Has anything really changed?
Oh your true colours emerge!you use “not the nine o’clock news” as a source lol,the burning of holiday homes was probably one of the most successful direct action ,non violent campaigns in UK history.The Welsh police response was not successful, mainly because most locals even if disagreeing with the acts ,had enough sympathy with their reasons as to not help the Police.We could probably do with another!
‘Not the Nine O’clock News’ (1980) was a joke!
Were you too young to see it, or have you had a sense of humour bypass?
Saw it and found it funny,just wouldn’t use it to justify anything political ,even your laughable views.
Burning down a house is non-violent? Really? Honestly?
I’ve considerable sympathy with those who oppose second homes because of the deleterious effects on locals. It plagues where I live and other parts of England.
But destroying property – with no guarantee that there’s no-one ever inside – is aggressive yobbery of the worst kind.
(Edited)
Typical response. Clichéd and vitriolic. So typical of the herd view of Wales and the Welsh. Sure this is the best forum for you? Stereotypes Anonymous sounds much better suited for your bigotry.
Don’t you mean Welch not Welsh?
Given your pseudo Slavic nom de guerre you sound like a complete, pretentious prat.
Am I incorrect?
Pseudo slavic?? Oh get a grip. As I said before. Keep digging.
Goodnight sunshine, you are obviously beyond help.
Consummatum est.
Night night Rumplestiltkin
If you so wish to cease discussion – not sure it, whatever it is, is finished – but I’m happy to stop the conversation. Sleep well.
I only popped in because of a link attacking Micheal Sheen I received.Leaving now, scanning through some other subjects leaves me thinking it should just be called “another herd” bye , enjoyed some of your interaction with the pseudo human MC!
Yes it certainly provided some entertainment.
Centuries of exploitation by arrogant and ignorant people like you are the cause of most of our problems ,now you whine like little bitches because your abused partner calls you out ! FFS
It would be more accurate to say that the north of England hangs around the neck of London (mostly not English) taxpayers. Some English refer to others as parasites while they live off the labour of others.
Interesting you don’t mention the 2011 referendum on more powers for the assembly.63.5% for and 36.5% against.you haven’t heard of any enthusiasm for independence.Maybe take s look out side your comfort zone/rabbit hole sometimes!
As a Welshman I would gladly keep the Queen. But what follows is little better than a cardboard cut out of a rather less than intelligent monarch who constantly witters on about matters that he chooses not to understand and which will likely result in the downfall of the monarchy in the UK. He has little love for Wales and his whinging support of the Great Reset clearly shows he favours the collapse of democracy.
You have skilfully avoided the crucial, question. Who is going to pay for all this?The English presumably?
Dream on sunshine, those days are gone!
They can legalize everything, gambling, all drugs, and money laundering. Sort of like a Caribbean Island but closer to the target audience.
ha ha!
Lol Centuries of exploitation of our resources,coal the driving force of the industrial revolution.A government voted in by England destroyed industries on the valleys for petty revenge.Now you whine about paying to support the devestation you caused? FFS man you are an archetypal ignorant Englishman.
What are you whingeing about? The Welsh were just as much beneficiaries of coal and the Industrial Revolution as the English.
Just take the example of that great 19th century Welsh Iron Master John Hughes, who took his cohorts from Merthyr Tydfil to kick-start the Czarist steel industry in what is now the troubled city of Donetsk, formerly known as Hughesovka!
As to devastation, Wales was treated no differently to England or Scotland when it came to the abandonment of ‘rust bucket’ industries. It has been the same across the Western World, or have you missed that?
Would love to know the benefits of the exploitation of the industrial revolution to Wales,there is a difference with coal ,granted it would probably be dying by now ,but it didn’t die because of economics or changes in demand it was killed by an English government,on a revenge mission.Of course it affected regions of England as well,but the English nation voted for Thatcher and the Tories we didn’t.The problem with the UK and I appreciate it affects English regions as well as Celtic nations ,is an over centralised system with wealth and Government spending concentrated in a very small area of the South east of England.I have stated before it is not necessarily problems specific to Wales that are the issue,but solutions specific to Wales are what we need.
The benefits? An enormous explosion in your population for one.
” Killed by an English government on a revenge mission”. What utter tosh. You sound like that reptile Aneurin Bevan!
Wales failed the ‘Darwinian Test’ when it was conquered by Edward I in the late 13th century. That collection of six magnificent Castles in North Wales, still bear witness to that conquest, do they not?
Your exceptionalism will get you nowhere, Consummatum est, as they say.
Unlike you I don’t believe in Welsh exeptionalism Mark,I believe in Welsh difference.The Thatcher revenge mission on coal miners is not tish it is documented fact,not mine Cabinet papers of the time show this.Why try and make out I don’t accept we were conquered,we were but are still here proud and different.”Reptile Aneurin Bevan ” not a labour supporter but such a childish attempt to gain a rise,is beneath even a poundshop troll such as yourself!Also consummation EST,would only really apply if I didn’t exist.In what was called the”British tongue” before the Victorians morphed English to Brittania.YMA O HYD!
I am so very sorry but I cannot reply to such incoherent twaddle as that.
Funny I thought incoherent twaddle was your language of choice.
Welsh pay taxes too you know.
Really, only 23 I gather, better than the 42 for Scotland, but not much.
You need a break from this forum that encourages open and non-vitriolic debate. I am most certainly not going to bite at such a childish retort.
You already have you cretin. Grow up, there is still time.
OOPS!! When you resort to insults you have lost the argument ‘Sunshine’!
I think you’d best get back to the Daily Star, you’ll feel much more at home.
There is no argument to be had, Wales is a parasite, and this should cease immediately.
You are correct ‘cretin’ was an unnecessary insult for which I apologise.
More tea Vicar?
I think I called you a poundshop troll,I’d like to apologize to….. poundshop,I’ve had far more sensible conversations there when looking for an old style tin opener!Repeating a Latin phrase you googled does not add weight to your argument ,just makes you look like a pretentious arse.
Australia isn’t a Dominion.
Unherd poll is hardly representative of residents of wales’ opinions on prince Charles.
Why am I reading these comments with a Welsh accent( in my Head)? Is this an example of misappropriation?
No just ignorance
Mme too so I must be ignorant as well! Maybe we’re just racist. lol
Not at all Andrew,arrogant , xenophobic and in our language a little twp,but not racist,god forbid!
“Welsh accent”
There is no ‘Welsh accent’. There are two Welsh ‘languages’ (NW/SE roughly – still Welsh but with a few variants). South Walian lingo (and accent) was regularly mocked by different people in NW Wales when I lived there (for 20 years). Accents vary throughout the country as they do in Scotland. To any average Englishman the ‘Welsh accent’ was e.g. Harry Secombe and the Scottish, Billy Connolly. Both are actually mere local accents made familiar by frequent employment by actors/entertainers on TV or radio. One never hears a cultivated (or even an uncultivated, of which there is more than one) Edinburgh accent on TV, unless it belongs to an elected politician, or an Aberdeenshire or Borders one, for that matter. Welsh people told me they couldn’t even understand the Glasgow-based comedy ‘Rab. C. Nesbit’.
According to my nationalist-voting N Welsh cousins South Walians are not really ‘Welsh’ at all (most being descendants of English or Irish settlers e.g. Harry Secombe again and his like). To my oldest (Nat) cousin of my generation ‘England begins at Llandudno.’) Yet, strangely, one of his best pub mates was an English chap from Manchester).
Two languages? Not really you’d be on safer ground saying two dialects.The North South rivalry can be intense,but is not really that different from most countries,I once shared a work space with Three German guys,from Berlin , Hamburg and Munich all mocked the way each spoke German,and the comments in who or what was really German could get intense.My mother was unable to follow Rab C ,it’s not as uncommon as you think ,I have English friends who watch the show now with subtitles!I’m married to a Glaswegian, at our wedding it took a couple of hours before everyone adjusted to each others accents and phrases . Finally what’s odd to you about holding nationalist views and having English friends? Not mutually exclusive at all,unless you genuinely believe all nationalists are anti English people
Michael Sheen speaks a lot of sense and he clearly has the interests of the Welsh national at heart. This debate is a very important one when considering the future of Wales.
Wales doesn’t have a prince. “Prince of wales” is just a title Charles carries, he has absolutely no role to play in welsh society, so regardless of whether welsh people are fond of him (I doubt that’s true), he should stop using the title.
Many independent countries across the globe, which are ex British colonies still retain the Queen as Head of state and an independent Wales could choose to do this. In the meantime, the royals, who generate tourism money mostly for London, England, do v little for Wales. The Crown Estate extracts wealth from Wales that we could use for our economy. An economy by the way that has a greater gdp than Portugal.
The royals are dominishing in their support in Wales and theo knows this.
Time for the Englisg to rebuild Hadrian’s Wall and Offa’a d**e?
The f*****g ignorance of the comments is enough to make me want independence from you ignorant imbeciles!
You’re the Americans of Europe… no one likes you! especially your Celtic neighbors.
f**k your benefit cheating, tax dodging royal family!
If a statute is given the power of law by the consent of the governed then when did the Welsh speaking Welsh consent to the statute of Rhuddlan that was written in English? full of anti Welsh laws & treated the Welsh as second class citizens?
England destroyed our Welsh heritage. We were the first to be fucked by England before you went on to f**k over most of the world in the name of the empire… & another reason No One Likes You but you’re too Ignorant to see it.
You pretend to worry about LGBT rights & anti semitism that affects a tiny minority of people in Britain but get offended when we remind you what Cunts you have been to us?
But don’t worry, Welsh people are so miseducated they don’t have a clue & are almost as ignorant as yourself. They cry while they sing the Welsh national anthem “i’r hen iaith barhau” ( for my old language to continue)… & then send their kids to English school!
No one has divided & conquered so well as the English!
Everyone is entitled to have a opinion about what they want. He’s not saying anything about the union just about an 800 year old method of subjugating a defeated people
Did you delete my post? I’m Welsh so it wouldn’t surprise me! 😉
Persecution complex?