'In Southport, the spark for the rioting was swiftly absorbed into a wider sense of hostility towards mass migration.' (Getty Images)

Following the Manchester Arena bombing in 2017, the aftermath, like those of other recent terrorist atrocities, was marked by what later revealed to be a coordinated British government policy of “controlled spontaneity”. Pre-planned vigils and inter-faith events were rolled out, and people handed out flowers “in apparently unprompted gestures of love and support” as part of an information operation “to shape public responses, encouraging individuals to focus on empathy for the victims and a sense of unity with strangers, rather than reacting with violence and anger”. The aim was to present an image of depoliticised community solidarity within the state’s benevolent, if not adequately protective, embrace.
What we have seen since the Southport attack is the precise opposite response: uncontrolled spontaneity, which government policy is expressly designed to prevent. When Keir Starmer attended the scene to lay flowers, he was heckled by locals demanding “change” and accusing him of failure to keep the British people safe. Self-evidently, Starmer, who in August had been in power for less than a month, bears no personal responsibility for the attack: instead, he was derided as a representative of Britain’s political class, and of a British state that cannot maintain a basic level of security for its subjects.
In the same way, rioters in Southport — fuelled by false claims the killer was a Muslim refugee — cheered when they injured police during the violent disorder that followed the initial vigil, which included attempts to burn down the town mosque in what can only be termed a pogrom. Like the riot that followed in Hartlepool, violence against emissaries of the state — the police — was coupled with objectively racist and Islamophobic actual and attempted violence against migrants.
There are strong parallels with the ongoing disorder in Ireland, which is an explicit reaction to mass migration: last year’s Dublin riots, sparked by the attempted murder of schoolchildren by an Algerian migrant, were in some ways a foreshadowing for the current mass disturbances in Britain. In Southport, the spark for the rioting — the attack itself — was swiftly absorbed into a wider sense of hostility towards mass migration: protestors carried signs demanding the state “Deport them” and “Stop the Boats” to “Protect our kids at any cost”. As in Ireland, presumably local women were prominent, hectoring police and silencing wavering voices with appeals to group solidarity. While this is a very different dynamic to previous football casuals-dominated street mobilisation organised around Tommy Robinson — as represented by Wednesday’s desultory clashes in Whitehall — liberal commentators in Britain, as in Ireland, have nevertheless chosen to portray the violence as orchestrated by Robinson, rather than him piggybacking on it, as is also the case in Ireland.
Shocked by the jolt to their worldview, British liberals, for whom the depoliticisation of the political choice of mass migration is a central moral cause, have also blamed Nigel Farage, the media, the Conservative Party, the Labour Party and Vladimir Putin for the rioting, rather than the explicitly articulated motivations of the rioters themselves. But there is a matter-of-fact social-scientific term for the ongoing disorder: ethnic conflict, a usage studiously avoided by the British state for fear of its political implications. As the academic Elaine Thomas observed in in her 1998 essay “Muting Interethnic Conflict in Post-Imperial Britain”, the British state is unusual in Europe for being “exceptionally liberal in granting political rights to new arrivals” while dampening interethnic conflict by simply refusing to talk about the issue at all, and placing social sanctions on those who do. When it works, it works: “Interethnic conflict has never been as severe, prolonged, or violent in Britain as it has been in many other countries” — for which we should be thankful.
But as Thomas notes, sometimes it doesn’t work, as in Enoch Powell’s famous intervention, supported by 74% of British respondents polled at the time, when, “once the silence was broken and public debate was opened, the liberals found themselves in a weak position. Having focused on silencing the issue, they had not developed a discourse to address it,” and found themselves discomfited by demonstrations in support of Powell. The Labour government of the day dealt with the rising tensions surrounding immigration by rushing through emergency legislation that imposed an effective moratorium on extra-European immigration via the 1968 Commonwealth Immigrants Act, with the aim of assimilating migrants already here and dampening nascent violence by preventing others arriving.
Under New Labour, however, this mostly successful policy was torn up, with the conscious intention of transforming Britain into a specifically multi-ethnic — rather than multiracial — society, largely derived from the era’s brief enthusiasm for globalisation. Downstream of then-fashionable social-scientific theories on the simultaneous inevitability and desirability of such a transformation, policy papers like the Runnymede Trust’s influential report “The Future of Multi-Ethnic Britain” pushed to reshape Britain as “a community of communities”, a genuinely multicultural state that rejected the “narrow English-dominated, backward-looking definition of the nation”. Ethnic identities — of which the British one was framed as one among many — were to be embraced, within the parameters of the newly multicultural state, and immigration restrictions lifted to achieve this goal.
Yet Labour’s shift towards an explicitly ethnic understanding of community relations would not last long. Following the 2001 ethnic riots in Bradford, Oldham and Burnley, the Labour government performed a dramatic about-turn. As the Tunisian academic Hassen Zriba observed: “All of a sudden, multiculturalism became the disease that needed urgent solution.” Blair’s government commissioned five separate reports, all of which declared “that excessive cultural diversity is a hindrance to inter-racial harmony, and that community cohesion is the best solution”.
This emphasis on community cohesion was heightened by the mass casualty jihadist attacks of the 2000s and 2010s, leading inexorably — along with the Prevent programme, widened state powers of coercion and surveillance, and the accelerated construction of a civic conception of Britishness — to the “controlled spontaneity” project, the terminus of which we witnessed in Southport. While the other northwest European states which adopted a multicultural ethos, notably Sweden and the Netherlands, have since abandoned it, rhetorically the British state is still committed to multiculturalism.
In practice, however, the British state has quietly adopted a revived version of assimilationism. Over the past two decades, a capacious version of Britishness has been constructed around little more than superficial national symbolism and the desire to avoid ethnic conflict, euphemised as “British values”. Interestingly, Blair himself, who now rejects multiculturalism, has recently become an advocate of Lee Kuan Yew, in whose political philosophy Singapore’s ethnic diversity is, rather than a strength, an undesirable hindrance derived from well-meaning British colonial intentions.
But latent authoritarianism aside, Starmer is no Lee Kuan Yew. His faltering attempt to steer the discourse following the Southport attack towards tackling “knife crime” — itself a British state euphemism — highlights the state’s ideological inability to address ethnic tensions frankly, and so manage them effectively. If it were happening in another country, British journalists and politicians would discuss such dynamics matter-of-factly. This is, after all, simply the nature of human societies. Indeed, it is one of the primary reasons refugees flee their countries for Britain in the first place.
Yet when they occur in our own country, such dynamics are too dangerous to even name. Instead, ethnic groups are euphemistically termed “communities”, and the state-managed avoidance of ethnic conflict is termed “community relations”. When Balkan Roma rioted in Leeds recently, it was as an ethnic group responding to what it saw as the British state’s interference in its lives: the British state, in return, addressed its response to the nebulous “Harehills community”. When Hindus and Muslims engaged in violent intercommunal clashes in Leicester two years ago, it was as rival ethnoreligious groups, and was again responded to by the British state as an issue to be dealt with by “community leaders” — the state euphemism for its chosen intermediaries, in a form of indirect rule carried over from colonial governance.
But when the rioting is carried out by ethnic British participants, as is now the case, the limitations of this strategy reveal itself: the perception of an ethnic, rather than civic British or English, identity is actively guarded against as state policy, just as is the emergence of ethnic British “community leaders”. As such, political advocates of a British ethnic identity are isolated from mainstream discourse, as has been state policy since the Powell affair: any expression of such feeling is what Starmer means by “the far-Right”, rather than any traditionally defined desire to conduct genocides or conquer neighbouring countries. This mainland state of affairs, incidentally, is in strong contrast to Northern Ireland, where the existence of rival Irish and British ethnic groups is the basis of the political system, reified by the British state through the ethnic power-sharing apparatus of the Stormont parliament. In Northern Ireland, Britishness is an ethnic identity: across the Irish Sea, it is a firmly civic one: that these constructions differ is a function of political expediency rather than logical consistency.
This ambivalence over referring to Britain’s various ethnic groups is contrasted by the British state’s deep engagement with identity groups based on race, a cultural quirk that academics have long highlighted, and which distinguishes Britain from its European neighbours. Even today, political discourse in Britain evades ethnicity for a focus on race in a way unusual outside America, where it stems from an almost uniquely stratified slave economy, overlaid on a settler colonial society deriving from genocide. Yet British liberals squeamish at ethnic identities — especially their own — instead obsess over the politics of race. Ethnic conflict is taboo to even discuss in the abstract: but minority racial rioting, even over imported grievances, is viewed sympathetically.
Perhaps well-intentioned, the assimilationist aim of this dynamic was counteracted by the British state’s parallel promotion of the new “BAME” identity, assembling various geographically unconnected ethnic groups together in one political whole solely by virtue of their non-European origin. Instead of reflecting our lived reality of a country now composed of multiple ethnicities, among which are the majority native British, an entirely artificial racialised binary was constructed for ideological purposes, in which the ethnic British, along with other Europeans, were merely white, while non-white Britons were encouraged to self-identify as a counterbalancing force. I am legally, but not ethnically British — like most descendants of migrants, I am perfectly happy with my own inherited ethnic identity — but in pursuit of its own convoluted logic, the British state instead chooses to define me as white, an identity of no interest to me. The long-term contribution to social harmony of this explicitly racialised innovation was, as both the ethnic conflict literature and common sense suggest, doubtful in the extreme, and the government dropped the BAME label in 2022: its mooted replacement, “global majority” is, if anything, more problematic.
The British state’s differing strategies to ethnic-minority rioting, on the one hand, and British ethnic-majority rioting on the other, are, as conservative commentators observe, markedly disproportionate. This may not be “fair”, but it is not intended to be. The function of British policing such tensions is increasingly not to prevent crime — as anyone living in Britain can see — but simply to dampen interethnic violence, in which the shrinking ethnic majority population is, as the literature is clear, analytically the most obvious and potentially volatile actor. In the words of the sociologist John Rex, whose advocacy for a new multicultural Britain was highly influential during the Nineties, the fundamental task of multi-ethnic governance is the twofold desire to “ensure that those who will come are peacefully integrated and that their coming does not lead to the collapse of the post-1945 political order”.
That is, after all, the logic of “controlled spontaneity”: to prevent a backlash to sudden atrocities or a generalised sense of insecurity that would detach the ethnic majority from Britain’s post-Blair settlement and potentially lead to the formation of ethnic parties. Indeed, the formation of explicitly ethnic parties is the deciding factor in what academics term the shift from a pluralist society — in which ethnic conflict is managed within the existing political order, as in mainland Britain — to a plural one, where the political system revolves around ethnic rivalries, as in Northern Ireland. We are not there yet, though the formation of notionally Muslim (but de facto Pakistani and Bangladeshi) political groupings is a step in that direction, as is Reform’s entry to Parliament, understood by Farage’s voters and opponents alike as a tacit ethnic British party, though one with a strong post-war assimilationist rather than ethnic exclusionist bent.
The government’s alarm aside, the potential for serious ethnic violence seems limited, as few of the precipitating factors listed by academic specialists exist: the British state retains vast coercive power, sympathetic elites aspiring to lead majority ethnic mobilisation do not exist, and, in any case, the most heated divisions on the validity of the British ethnic group remain within the British ethnic group itself.
Instead, like the daily drumbeat of violent disorder so new to British life, but now accepted as the norm, occasional outbursts of ethnic violence, whether currently by the British or by other ethnic groups acting in their perceived communal interests, will become commonplace, as in other diverse societies. To manage such conflicts, the state will become more coercive, as Starmer now promises his supporters. But modern Britain isn’t hell: for the most part it works, better than most places in the world, even if it is far less orderly or safe than the country we grew up in. There will be no violent rupture, no radical new dispensation: things will continue as they are, only more so. This is the nature of most post-colonial societies, and now it is the nature of our own.
***
This article was first published on 3 August. It was updated on 5 August to clarify the chronology of the 1968 Commonwealth Immigrants Act.
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SubscribeThe antipathy toward Lana Del Rey’s music simply for not exuding the right amount of sneering contempt for men goes to show how hateful modern feminism has become.
Agreed.
And anyone using “problematic” in its currently fashionable idiom is likely to receive a prolonged view of my back. It’s gone from being a serviceable adjective to more the weasel word of choice for the passive aggressive contingent.
I always read ‘problematic’ as ‘I vaguely disapprove of this thing, but I haven’t the guts to say so explicitly, or the clarity of thought and expression to spell out what’s wrong with it. To make things worse, I enjoy using herd-following words, expressions and modes of thought.’ (such as the four-syllable heartsink I’m bitching about in this comment, futilely)
I think in this context the use of problematical is reprehensible.
I always read ‘problematic’ as ‘I vaguely disapprove of this thing, but I haven’t the guts to say so explicitly, or the clarity of thought and expression to spell out what’s wrong with it. To make things worse, I enjoy using herd-following words, expressions and modes of thought.’ (such as the four-syllable heartsink I’m bitching about in this comment, futilely)
I think in this context the use of problematical is reprehensible.
Well OK – but some of the men in her songs genuinely are toxic but “she” loves them nonetheless.
The bigger fault of modern feminism is to see men in general, or “masculinity” as such as toxic.
True, default “toxicity” in men seems to be an ideé fixe for some people.
Being able to quickly identify the feminists certainly helps when deciding who is worth interacting with.
Kathleen Stock is a feminist don’t you like her? Why has feminist become a dirty word? There are plenty who aren’t extreme.
Given that the word feminist has become a toxic label for angry, man-hating harridans I’m surprised anyone would want to claim the title. Maybe they are under the mistaken understanding that feminism stands for fairness and equality of opportunity, things that everybody agrees with and no one is opposed to. In reality, equality and fairness are the veneer that feminism uses to hide behind. To understand what feminism really stands for is not difficult. There are many books on feminism which expose the true nature of the movement. Anyone who cares to can read them for themselves.
I don’t think it’s up to you as a man to tell feminists what feminism should be about. Why do you say we are trying to hide behind equality and fairness? What do you think we are trying to do? Your attitude sort of proves the point really. Men still telling women how to behave and think.
Really well said Ali.
Not really. Just trotting out something they’ve heard (herd) others say.
Anyone has a perfect right to debate on any subject whatever, regardless of skin colour, gender etc.
Besides feminism impacts on men as well as women, so men have an interest in the matter.
Now before you reply with a hackneyed feminist phrase, bear in mind that feminists are weighing in heavily on the trans debate. Why? Because they, and women, have an interest in the matter. It affects them just as feminism affects men.
Not really. Just trotting out something they’ve heard (herd) others say.
Anyone has a perfect right to debate on any subject whatever, regardless of skin colour, gender etc.
Besides feminism impacts on men as well as women, so men have an interest in the matter.
Now before you reply with a hackneyed feminist phrase, bear in mind that feminists are weighing in heavily on the trans debate. Why? Because they, and women, have an interest in the matter. It affects them just as feminism affects men.
Tough
Feminism is a religion that informs the total configuration of society; and any human being has an obligation to address, comment, evaluate.
Really well said Ali.
Tough
Feminism is a religion that informs the total configuration of society; and any human being has an obligation to address, comment, evaluate.
Excuse me! Who gave feminism such a label? Ah you did.
I don’t think it’s up to you as a man to tell feminists what feminism should be about. Why do you say we are trying to hide behind equality and fairness? What do you think we are trying to do? Your attitude sort of proves the point really. Men still telling women how to behave and think.
Excuse me! Who gave feminism such a label? Ah you did.
Everybody likes her – because her mind is open, she evaluates evidence honestly and uses reason clearly and openly. There’s very little rhetoric in her writing and she is able to look at a subject from more than one side. She writes in good faith.
Even if you don’t agree with her she is worth reading, and provides a genuine test for your own beliefs. I’m sorry, but in all that she is very unfeminist.
It’s so annoying when people say “sorry” before they express a point of view. What would you have us call our ourselves since “feminist” has become a dirty word?
Maybe don’t. Just engage with the facts, the arguments and what other people say without a label. As soon as you adopt a label you start to become tribal and answer as you think a feminist should. We’re hampered enough in our thinking without laming ourselves with labels.
What sets KS apart is that she is truer to the spirit of philosophy than the spirit of feminism. That’s what makes her worth reading, and gets her respect across the board (a few fanatics excepted).
Maybe don’t. Just engage with the facts, the arguments and what other people say without a label. As soon as you adopt a label you start to become tribal and answer as you think a feminist should. We’re hampered enough in our thinking without laming ourselves with labels.
What sets KS apart is that she is truer to the spirit of philosophy than the spirit of feminism. That’s what makes her worth reading, and gets her respect across the board (a few fanatics excepted).
It’s so annoying when people say “sorry” before they express a point of view. What would you have us call our ourselves since “feminist” has become a dirty word?
Like is not the relevant word. Disagreement. It’s not the ‘extremism’ of feminism…..Feminism is the problem, mainly because it’s an extension of the billiard ball, individualist anthropological vision of humanity that informs all traditions of liberalism and socialism. Kathleen’s treatment by academia has been terrible. Her response has been brave and laudable. I wish her every success. But like Helen Joyce and others (Kelly JK excepted) she has not been willing to admit the extent to which the current lunacy is the logical extension of feminism. Rousseau, Engels, Kollontai, De Beauvoir, Firestone….Butler…..and now ‘critical gender theory’ – are all of a piece. She can’t reject trans politics without rejecting feminism at the same time….The reassertion of biology and of a vision of human beings as being forever ‘dependent rational animals’ is communitarian and traditionalist – and must be. It requires a complementary understanding of the sexes; sex linked to child bearing/rearing and the cultural reproduction of society; intergenerational families…..And it requires the Cartesian/Kerouac image of humans as perpetually mobile, transacting and ‘free’ – like some perpetual 1970s rock and roll road movie (‘Almost Famous’) – perpetual teenagers – to be rejected in favour of mutual obligation, mutual care, mutual identification and ….ultimately (I’m afraid) …..devotion to a transcendent God. Feminism comes from atheist materialism….and that has always been the problem
Given that the word feminist has become a toxic label for angry, man-hating harridans I’m surprised anyone would want to claim the title. Maybe they are under the mistaken understanding that feminism stands for fairness and equality of opportunity, things that everybody agrees with and no one is opposed to. In reality, equality and fairness are the veneer that feminism uses to hide behind. To understand what feminism really stands for is not difficult. There are many books on feminism which expose the true nature of the movement. Anyone who cares to can read them for themselves.
Everybody likes her – because her mind is open, she evaluates evidence honestly and uses reason clearly and openly. There’s very little rhetoric in her writing and she is able to look at a subject from more than one side. She writes in good faith.
Even if you don’t agree with her she is worth reading, and provides a genuine test for your own beliefs. I’m sorry, but in all that she is very unfeminist.
Like is not the relevant word. Disagreement. It’s not the ‘extremism’ of feminism…..Feminism is the problem, mainly because it’s an extension of the billiard ball, individualist anthropological vision of humanity that informs all traditions of liberalism and socialism. Kathleen’s treatment by academia has been terrible. Her response has been brave and laudable. I wish her every success. But like Helen Joyce and others (Kelly JK excepted) she has not been willing to admit the extent to which the current lunacy is the logical extension of feminism. Rousseau, Engels, Kollontai, De Beauvoir, Firestone….Butler…..and now ‘critical gender theory’ – are all of a piece. She can’t reject trans politics without rejecting feminism at the same time….The reassertion of biology and of a vision of human beings as being forever ‘dependent rational animals’ is communitarian and traditionalist – and must be. It requires a complementary understanding of the sexes; sex linked to child bearing/rearing and the cultural reproduction of society; intergenerational families…..And it requires the Cartesian/Kerouac image of humans as perpetually mobile, transacting and ‘free’ – like some perpetual 1970s rock and roll road movie (‘Almost Famous’) – perpetual teenagers – to be rejected in favour of mutual obligation, mutual care, mutual identification and ….ultimately (I’m afraid) …..devotion to a transcendent God. Feminism comes from atheist materialism….and that has always been the problem
Kathleen Stock is a feminist don’t you like her? Why has feminist become a dirty word? There are plenty who aren’t extreme.
And you would know David, would you not, exactly what the fault is with modern feminism, being a man. [snork]
Elaine – if you have nothing to say, then say nothing. You’re just trotting out hackneyed retorts that add nothing to the debate and just make you seem silly.
Elaine – if you have nothing to say, then say nothing. You’re just trotting out hackneyed retorts that add nothing to the debate and just make you seem silly.
True, default “toxicity” in men seems to be an ideé fixe for some people.
Being able to quickly identify the feminists certainly helps when deciding who is worth interacting with.
And you would know David, would you not, exactly what the fault is with modern feminism, being a man. [snork]
Antipathy by whom?
Agreed.
And anyone using “problematic” in its currently fashionable idiom is likely to receive a prolonged view of my back. It’s gone from being a serviceable adjective to more the weasel word of choice for the passive aggressive contingent.
Well OK – but some of the men in her songs genuinely are toxic but “she” loves them nonetheless.
The bigger fault of modern feminism is to see men in general, or “masculinity” as such as toxic.
Antipathy by whom?
The antipathy toward Lana Del Rey’s music simply for not exuding the right amount of sneering contempt for men goes to show how hateful modern feminism has become.
Professor Stock’s writing is so good that even when I couldn’t care less about the subject matter – pop music – I stay to the end and enjoy the ride. I’ve not enjoyed reading cultural essays this much since Camille Paglia’s heyday.
Spot on. She writes beautifully and I, like you, have little interest in this particular subject, Kathleen Stock regularly turns out essays that I find fascinating. I usually agree with her arguments but even when I don’t I reckon that it’s probably me that’s wrong.
Most of all, she seems to be a wonderful example of a feminist. If you mess her about she’ll have your b@lls (metaphorically) but always comes across as liking and caring for men (as well as women).
I love reading Kathleen’s work. I also love Lana Del Ray. Kathleen expresses what I know about LDR but cannot put into words.
Exactly. I hadn’t heard of Lana del Rey (I keep thinking it’s the beach town Marina Del Rey) but I knew Kathleen would make it interesting. She could write about baked beans and I’d be captivated.
I love reading Kathleen’s work. I also love Lana Del Ray. Kathleen expresses what I know about LDR but cannot put into words.
Exactly. I hadn’t heard of Lana del Rey (I keep thinking it’s the beach town Marina Del Rey) but I knew Kathleen would make it interesting. She could write about baked beans and I’d be captivated.
Yes Graeme, she’s a treasure. Her and Mary Harrington, brilliant.
Spot on. She writes beautifully and I, like you, have little interest in this particular subject, Kathleen Stock regularly turns out essays that I find fascinating. I usually agree with her arguments but even when I don’t I reckon that it’s probably me that’s wrong.
Most of all, she seems to be a wonderful example of a feminist. If you mess her about she’ll have your b@lls (metaphorically) but always comes across as liking and caring for men (as well as women).
Yes Graeme, she’s a treasure. Her and Mary Harrington, brilliant.
Professor Stock’s writing is so good that even when I couldn’t care less about the subject matter – pop music – I stay to the end and enjoy the ride. I’ve not enjoyed reading cultural essays this much since Camille Paglia’s heyday.
Images were discovered and gleefully circulated online of a young Lana — or Lizzy Grant, as she was before her professional name change — modelling ponchos for a knitting pattern catalogue.
Anyone using one of said knitting patterns will end up with a serviceable and very real poncho, while the online world is a resolutely unreal blasted and howling wilderness populated only by dogs and ghosts. Kudos to Miss Del Rey for providing us with something real and useful, in addition to her music.
Images were discovered and gleefully circulated online of a young Lana — or Lizzy Grant, as she was before her professional name change — modelling ponchos for a knitting pattern catalogue.
Anyone using one of said knitting patterns will end up with a serviceable and very real poncho, while the online world is a resolutely unreal blasted and howling wilderness populated only by dogs and ghosts. Kudos to Miss Del Rey for providing us with something real and useful, in addition to her music.
The Machine boosts the Machine narrative and criticises other narratives (or tries to squeeze them into the approved shoebox).
So Lana Del Rey is criticised for not following the Music Machine narrative – because journalists don’t know how to cope with someone outside the narrative.
You can probably remember others outside the approved narrative. Trump, Farrage, the Polish government, Giorgia Meloni, Liz Truss. It doesn’t always end in tears but they had a much harder task overcoming the Machine narrative.
I’ll add another: “Sound of Freedom”. I saw it yesterday and the media hacks calling it various versions of “a right-wing Qanon wet dream” clearly didn’t see it. The soulless ghouls who run the narrative outlets were told to sneer at it, and so they obeyed.
I’ll add another: “Sound of Freedom”. I saw it yesterday and the media hacks calling it various versions of “a right-wing Qanon wet dream” clearly didn’t see it. The soulless ghouls who run the narrative outlets were told to sneer at it, and so they obeyed.
The Machine boosts the Machine narrative and criticises other narratives (or tries to squeeze them into the approved shoebox).
So Lana Del Rey is criticised for not following the Music Machine narrative – because journalists don’t know how to cope with someone outside the narrative.
You can probably remember others outside the approved narrative. Trump, Farrage, the Polish government, Giorgia Meloni, Liz Truss. It doesn’t always end in tears but they had a much harder task overcoming the Machine narrative.
“Lana Del Rey’s dissident femininity. She embodies the dark underground of female experience.”
Well, there you go. Whatever sells records. I fear that Kathleen has invested too much in a pop singer. I understand: When I was a teenager, I thought that Bob Dylan had something to tell me. He didn’t. He just strung empty phrases together and allowed me to contrive meaning from that which was meaningless.
Well, I hope your rabbits die. Bob Dylan has been contriving odd insights into the human condition since his late teens, and still does; and he continues to find unexpected melodies, rhythms and phrasings with astonishing creativity. In his 80s. Ok don’t go to his live shows now, but it’s a mistake to call his music meaningless, and I’m happy to see you outside about this.
Completely agree. I thought “Murder most Foul” showed he still had something interesting to give us.
Well said.
Completely agree. I thought “Murder most Foul” showed he still had something interesting to give us.
Well said.
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The hand-made blade, the child’s balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand, you know too soon
There is no sense in trying
I am familiar with the lines. They don’t mean anything. The penny dropped when I reached the grand age of twenty-one.
No need to be supercilious. You are not the arbitor of taste or meaning. So while they may not mean anything to you, but they do to others.
“Although the masters make the rules for the wise men and the fools, I’ve got nothing, Ma, to live up to.”
It has nothing to do with taste.
Says the man who writes (patronisingly, but presumably in all seriousness) “I fear that Kathleen has invested too much in a pop singer.”
Taste: the ability to discern what is of good quality or of a high aesthetic standard.
Why are you getting so uptight? The job of a mainstream pop singer is put out a string or records that will sell. Aesthetic standards don’t come into it. If you find the songs fun then fine, but don’t pretend that there is anything more to them than that.
PS: If you really want poetic beauty: tragedy mixed with humour and what it means to be a woman in a man’s world, then buy a copy of June Tabor’s collection of border ballads: The Echo of Hooves. How such stuff came out of such a wild time and place is almost beyond comprehension, but it did.
Actually feel the hostility in your posts. Kettle and black.
There is no hostility in my posts.
Uh huh.
Stop regarding disagreement as hostility.
And you stop regarding disagreement as being “uptight”.
Yeah, no. Your use of language shows you to be angry…calm ‘er down there fella, and to quote you, “stop!”
And you stop regarding disagreement as being “uptight”.
Yeah, no. Your use of language shows you to be angry…calm ‘er down there fella, and to quote you, “stop!”
Stop regarding disagreement as hostility.
Oh please!
Uh huh.
Oh please!
Exactly, Polidori is projecting onto your words which is exactly what one does with cryptic musical lyrics.
There is a difference between cryptic and meaningless.
There is a difference between cryptic and meaningless.
There is no hostility in my posts.
Exactly, Polidori is projecting onto your words which is exactly what one does with cryptic musical lyrics.
Well there you go that’s your taste! Because you like her doesn’t mean Dylan is bad.
Calm down!
Criticizing me doesn’t invalidate what I’m saying..
Criticizing me doesn’t invalidate what I’m saying..
Calm down!
Actually feel the hostility in your posts. Kettle and black.
Well there you go that’s your taste! Because you like her doesn’t mean Dylan is bad.
Why are you getting so uptight? The job of a mainstream pop singer is put out a string or records that will sell. Aesthetic standards don’t come into it. If you find the songs fun then fine, but don’t pretend that there is anything more to them than that.
PS: If you really want poetic beauty: tragedy mixed with humour and what it means to be a woman in a man’s world, then buy a copy of June Tabor’s collection of border ballads: The Echo of Hooves. How such stuff came out of such a wild time and place is almost beyond comprehension, but it did.
Yes, it does. Everything does.
Says the man who writes (patronisingly, but presumably in all seriousness) “I fear that Kathleen has invested too much in a pop singer.”
Taste: the ability to discern what is of good quality or of a high aesthetic standard.
Yes, it does. Everything does.
It has nothing to do with taste.
I’s rather meanspirited of you. I have to accept that lines of lyrics and poetry rarely mean much to me, I don’t understand them, but they often sound great and that’s enough.
I agree that Dylan’s lyrics are ambiguous, which doesn’t mean the Lana Del Ray’s lyrics are. I can’t say that I’m very aware of her output but of the songs I have heard, I like. This contrasts with Taylor swift whose output is boring to my ears. There’s an otherness to Lana’s music. Lyrics – don’t care.
What does any poem ‘mean’
It’s not reducible or literally descriptive.
Get back to your accounts and spreadsheets then.
My degree was in philosophy, not accountancy.
Well good for you. Can you be a bit more philisophical, then.
Well good for you. Can you be a bit more philisophical, then.
Hmmmm – there are certainly poems which don’t give themselves all at once. There are others which have an aura of profundity about them though their meaning is elusive (eg the Rilke line “beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror”).
But that leaves the possibility, much exploited in more pretentious pop music, of near meaningless lyrics, the non-existent profundity of which we are yet drawn to try and unravel.
Semolina Pilchards anyone?
It’s Alright Ma is not entirely open-ended, (I.e. meaningless). Its a broad satire of America’s burgeoning materialistic, individualistic consumer society at the time. Some of the lines are fairly clear, some are more allusive and interesting. It’s been quoted by Presidents, so it must have some rewards.
I Am the Walrus is more in the English tradition of Edward Lear and Lewis Carroll, than being simply ‘pretentious’.
It doesn’t require a degree in philosophy to understand it, but it does require a sense of humour
I wouldn’t class It’s alright ma as meaningless anyway.
But I think we look for a level of profundity in some pop songs which they frankly do not contain, and their authors are actually not capable of.
But see my other posts. I enjoy good pop music – but it has become way too dominant in our culture to the exclusion of art forms which are much more capable of deep thought or expression. What, after all, can you say in three minutes.
All art forms have become more commercial, particularly music.
Or perhaps those which are less easily commercialised have fallen out of the cultural picture.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Or perhaps those which are less easily commercialised have fallen out of the cultural picture.
All art forms have become more commercial, particularly music.
I wouldn’t class It’s alright ma as meaningless anyway.
But I think we look for a level of profundity in some pop songs which they frankly do not contain, and their authors are actually not capable of.
But see my other posts. I enjoy good pop music – but it has become way too dominant in our culture to the exclusion of art forms which are much more capable of deep thought or expression. What, after all, can you say in three minutes.
It’s Alright Ma is not entirely open-ended, (I.e. meaningless). Its a broad satire of America’s burgeoning materialistic, individualistic consumer society at the time. Some of the lines are fairly clear, some are more allusive and interesting. It’s been quoted by Presidents, so it must have some rewards.
I Am the Walrus is more in the English tradition of Edward Lear and Lewis Carroll, than being simply ‘pretentious’.
It doesn’t require a degree in philosophy to understand it, but it does require a sense of humour
Poetry may not be “reducible or literally descriptive,” but it should be meaningful. Stringing evocative lines together Willy nilly, isn’t enough.
Too often–I don’t say always, but too often–Dylan’s lyrics strikes me as an literary version of postmodern academese: it sounds impressive, but there’s no there there.
Oddly my mind was drawn to the post modern generator, an algorithm which generates post modern essays. One is drawn into them, and tries to decipher their meaning – even though they really have none, or have it by chance.
Oddly my mind was drawn to the post modern generator, an algorithm which generates post modern essays. One is drawn into them, and tries to decipher their meaning – even though they really have none, or have it by chance.
My degree was in philosophy, not accountancy.
Hmmmm – there are certainly poems which don’t give themselves all at once. There are others which have an aura of profundity about them though their meaning is elusive (eg the Rilke line “beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror”).
But that leaves the possibility, much exploited in more pretentious pop music, of near meaningless lyrics, the non-existent profundity of which we are yet drawn to try and unravel.
Semolina Pilchards anyone?
Poetry may not be “reducible or literally descriptive,” but it should be meaningful. Stringing evocative lines together Willy nilly, isn’t enough.
Too often–I don’t say always, but too often–Dylan’s lyrics strikes me as an literary version of postmodern academese: it sounds impressive, but there’s no there there.
I’m afraid I have to agree. I remember driving with friends in my twenties, listening to Dylan and thinking – a lot of this is just meaningless verbiage.
However, Tambourine Man, in contrast, is a great song.
Listen to Jerry Garcia’s version of Tangled Up in Blue. Changed how I listened to Dylan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxEsBAPleRY
It’s a brilliant interpretation, makes it a whole other song. Both versions have merit.
It’s a brilliant interpretation, makes it a whole other song. Both versions have merit.
Listen to Jerry Garcia’s version of Tangled Up in Blue. Changed how I listened to Dylan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxEsBAPleRY
They mean whatever you want to project onto them that’s the whole point of art. The same with Leonard Cohen’s lyrics.
If they don’t constrain the meaning that can be read into them, then they are literally meaningless.
And that is certainly not the whole point of art, not even of modern art.
Good point, but with modern art if it’s too obscure for the average person and has to be explained isn’t it meaningless?
Not really – lots of things are too difficult for the average person to understand. Philosophy, quantum physics, as well as some art. It doesn’t follow that they are meaningless though.
Not really – lots of things are too difficult for the average person to understand. Philosophy, quantum physics, as well as some art. It doesn’t follow that they are meaningless though.
Good point, but with modern art if it’s too obscure for the average person and has to be explained isn’t it meaningless?
If they don’t constrain the meaning that can be read into them, then they are literally meaningless.
And that is certainly not the whole point of art, not even of modern art.
Meaning? Why does it have to ‘mean’ something?
No need to be supercilious. You are not the arbitor of taste or meaning. So while they may not mean anything to you, but they do to others.
“Although the masters make the rules for the wise men and the fools, I’ve got nothing, Ma, to live up to.”
I’s rather meanspirited of you. I have to accept that lines of lyrics and poetry rarely mean much to me, I don’t understand them, but they often sound great and that’s enough.
I agree that Dylan’s lyrics are ambiguous, which doesn’t mean the Lana Del Ray’s lyrics are. I can’t say that I’m very aware of her output but of the songs I have heard, I like. This contrasts with Taylor swift whose output is boring to my ears. There’s an otherness to Lana’s music. Lyrics – don’t care.
What does any poem ‘mean’
It’s not reducible or literally descriptive.
Get back to your accounts and spreadsheets then.
I’m afraid I have to agree. I remember driving with friends in my twenties, listening to Dylan and thinking – a lot of this is just meaningless verbiage.
However, Tambourine Man, in contrast, is a great song.
They mean whatever you want to project onto them that’s the whole point of art. The same with Leonard Cohen’s lyrics.
Meaning? Why does it have to ‘mean’ something?
Sad eyed Lady of the lowlands to name but one. Polidori is on shaky ground.
And Kenny Buttrey’s drumming on “Sad Eyed Lady” is close to perfection.
And Kenny Buttrey’s drumming on “Sad Eyed Lady” is close to perfection.
“It’s only people’s games that you’ve got to dodge”
I am familiar with the lines. They don’t mean anything. The penny dropped when I reached the grand age of twenty-one.
Sad eyed Lady of the lowlands to name but one. Polidori is on shaky ground.
“It’s only people’s games that you’ve got to dodge”
I’m sorry, and you are….?
Reluctantly I’ll enter this debate:
I think we have put way more weight on the pop song as a medium than it is capable of carrying. It’s a simple medium with relatively limited scope for development. I would say that Leonard Cohen has pushed it lyrically as far as it can go without sinking into pretentiousness or meaninglessness.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth listening to, it is, but don’t expect too much in the way of profundity (as opposed to mock profundity). The great shame of modern life is not that there is pop music – it’s that it has become so completely dominant as the medium people actually take notice of.
Well what do you mean by ‘profound’?
Is Erlkonig by Schubert profound?
It’s just a song about an elf King.
Certain of the more verbal songwriters can carry deeper poetic and lyrical traditions into their songs, and that’s fine. Cohen, you mentioned. Robert Burns was a songwriter, so it’s nothing new
Well, of course, it has been argued that Schubert was strictly middle-brow.
With any song we can ask – is there more to this than meets the eye? We are asking whether there is more depth to it than meets the eye. For example, we might wonder if “It ain’t me babe” is about America rather than simply about a girlfriend.
What I’m saying is that an illusion of depth can be created through lyrics that on the surface appear meaningless or just odd. Whether this is done consciously by the writer is unclear (Bowie used cut ups to create this effect) – what is clear, however is that fans go to great lengths to decipher them, or bask in a kind of reflected glory because they “get it” while others don’t. There is a kind of snobbism about it.
Well, of course, it has been argued that Schubert was strictly middle-brow.
With any song we can ask – is there more to this than meets the eye? We are asking whether there is more depth to it than meets the eye. For example, we might wonder if “It ain’t me babe” is about America rather than simply about a girlfriend.
What I’m saying is that an illusion of depth can be created through lyrics that on the surface appear meaningless or just odd. Whether this is done consciously by the writer is unclear (Bowie used cut ups to create this effect) – what is clear, however is that fans go to great lengths to decipher them, or bask in a kind of reflected glory because they “get it” while others don’t. There is a kind of snobbism about it.
So true. Leonard Cohen said of his lyrics and poetry that since they were cryptic people were able to project onto them whatever they wanted to. I found that to be particulary true for me with The Stranger song. It became personal.
It’s true that if lyrics are too literal, too obvious in interpretation then they lose their appeal. But there really does have to be something there to interpret. Leonard Cohens songs are open to interpretation, but not infinitely.
Some, like Suzanne obviously, excel through their creation of a mood or atmosphere. And LC had a feeling for words which is genuinely rare in pop music.
Exhibit 1 – the last two lines in the following:
And he took you up in his aeroplane
Which he flew without any hands
And you cruised above the ribbons of rain
That drove the crowd from the stands
I meant to say that LC said of his earlier songs that they were empty and people could project onto them.I wouldn’t say that’s true of all of them and his cd The Future is certainly prescient. It’s hard to say if I have a fav but I find Jonathan singing ‘If it be your will” to be other worldly and tear inducing and of course ‘Hallelulah’ will be Leonard’s legacy if nothing else is.
I meant to say that LC said of his earlier songs that they were empty and people could project onto them.I wouldn’t say that’s true of all of them and his cd The Future is certainly prescient. It’s hard to say if I have a fav but I find Jonathan singing ‘If it be your will” to be other worldly and tear inducing and of course ‘Hallelulah’ will be Leonard’s legacy if nothing else is.
It’s true that if lyrics are too literal, too obvious in interpretation then they lose their appeal. But there really does have to be something there to interpret. Leonard Cohens songs are open to interpretation, but not infinitely.
Some, like Suzanne obviously, excel through their creation of a mood or atmosphere. And LC had a feeling for words which is genuinely rare in pop music.
Exhibit 1 – the last two lines in the following:
And he took you up in his aeroplane
Which he flew without any hands
And you cruised above the ribbons of rain
That drove the crowd from the stands
Well what do you mean by ‘profound’?
Is Erlkonig by Schubert profound?
It’s just a song about an elf King.
Certain of the more verbal songwriters can carry deeper poetic and lyrical traditions into their songs, and that’s fine. Cohen, you mentioned. Robert Burns was a songwriter, so it’s nothing new
So true. Leonard Cohen said of his lyrics and poetry that since they were cryptic people were able to project onto them whatever they wanted to. I found that to be particulary true for me with The Stranger song. It became personal.
The answer is blowing in the wind ?
Or maybe down on Highway 51 !
Bob already told you, it ain’t him babe.
Oh gosh one could go on forever! Such beautiful music. And what about Judy Collins and Joan Baez. I had the pleasue of interviewing Judy, she’s one of my favs who’s managed to keep singing thanks to vocal cord surgery. So many singers don’t know when to stop and become an embarressment.
Oh gosh one could go on forever! Such beautiful music. And what about Judy Collins and Joan Baez. I had the pleasue of interviewing Judy, she’s one of my favs who’s managed to keep singing thanks to vocal cord surgery. So many singers don’t know when to stop and become an embarressment.
Great artists channel something transcendental and for a while (actually quite a while) Dylan did. If you’ve lost the ability to connect with that, then you’re in a dark place imho.
No dark places, just because I don’t “connect” with Dylan.
“One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor.”
No dark places, just because I don’t “connect” with Dylan.
“One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor.”
And Dylan’s music still hold up today particularly with The Band.
“I’ll stay forever young” We can but clutch, but we will fail!
When I was about twenty, or so, a friend lent me records by, amongst many others, Robert Johnson, Bessie Smith and George Gershwin. I was annoyed with myself for having wasted my youth on pretentious tosh. The one “pop” performer who I admire to this day, is Kate Bush. (Who knows what vices will be attributed to me!)
I will have to re-enter the conversation if there’s any more Kate Bush chat – Robert Johnson was a sublime and slightly accidental artist, and (notoriously) so shy he wanted to record in another room from the engineer. He would have found the need to express your art by wearing a tea dress and waving your arms about quite baffling, and so do I. But I suppose these days we can all keep cultural opposites comfortably in mind.
11
11
I will have to re-enter the conversation if there’s any more Kate Bush chat – Robert Johnson was a sublime and slightly accidental artist, and (notoriously) so shy he wanted to record in another room from the engineer. He would have found the need to express your art by wearing a tea dress and waving your arms about quite baffling, and so do I. But I suppose these days we can all keep cultural opposites comfortably in mind.
“I’ll stay forever young” We can but clutch, but we will fail!
When I was about twenty, or so, a friend lent me records by, amongst many others, Robert Johnson, Bessie Smith and George Gershwin. I was annoyed with myself for having wasted my youth on pretentious tosh. The one “pop” performer who I admire to this day, is Kate Bush. (Who knows what vices will be attributed to me!)
It doesn’t say much for Kathleen Stock’s article that the one comment that’s attracted real attention is a criticism of Bob Dylan!
I prodded a hornet’s nest
Indeed you did!! Well done. It seems it was a blessing in disguise. We’re all bonding over Dylan!
Indeed you did!! Well done. It seems it was a blessing in disguise. We’re all bonding over Dylan!
There’s not that much to say about Del Rey, she ‘aint that deep. Kathleen said it all and more.
What more can one say about Del Rey? Kathleen said it all.
I prodded a hornet’s nest
There’s not that much to say about Del Rey, she ‘aint that deep. Kathleen said it all and more.
What more can one say about Del Rey? Kathleen said it all.
Well, I hope your rabbits die. Bob Dylan has been contriving odd insights into the human condition since his late teens, and still does; and he continues to find unexpected melodies, rhythms and phrasings with astonishing creativity. In his 80s. Ok don’t go to his live shows now, but it’s a mistake to call his music meaningless, and I’m happy to see you outside about this.
Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The hand-made blade, the child’s balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand, you know too soon
There is no sense in trying
I’m sorry, and you are….?
Reluctantly I’ll enter this debate:
I think we have put way more weight on the pop song as a medium than it is capable of carrying. It’s a simple medium with relatively limited scope for development. I would say that Leonard Cohen has pushed it lyrically as far as it can go without sinking into pretentiousness or meaninglessness.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth listening to, it is, but don’t expect too much in the way of profundity (as opposed to mock profundity). The great shame of modern life is not that there is pop music – it’s that it has become so completely dominant as the medium people actually take notice of.
The answer is blowing in the wind ?
Or maybe down on Highway 51 !
Bob already told you, it ain’t him babe.
Great artists channel something transcendental and for a while (actually quite a while) Dylan did. If you’ve lost the ability to connect with that, then you’re in a dark place imho.
And Dylan’s music still hold up today particularly with The Band.
It doesn’t say much for Kathleen Stock’s article that the one comment that’s attracted real attention is a criticism of Bob Dylan!
“Lana Del Rey’s dissident femininity. She embodies the dark underground of female experience.”
Well, there you go. Whatever sells records. I fear that Kathleen has invested too much in a pop singer. I understand: When I was a teenager, I thought that Bob Dylan had something to tell me. He didn’t. He just strung empty phrases together and allowed me to contrive meaning from that which was meaningless.
It is probably a sign of old age, but I am completely baffled by how anyone can see anything interesting or meaningful in today’s bland cultural landscape. The music of Lana del Rey, Taylor swift et.al is corporate packaged drek, mediocre and boring. Today’s movies are not much better and television, though there is now more of it than ever, is mostly unwatchable. This is particularly acute for boomers who had the richest culture in the history of the world. From Buddy Holly and Elvis to The Beatles and the Stones, the Grateful Dead, the Doors and the Jefferson Airplane, from Charlie Parker and Brubeck to Miles and Trane, the music of the 50’s and 60’s was consistently groundbreaking and brilliant. I weep for today’s children who have to endure the weepy ennui of singers like del Ray and Billie Ellish. We led a cultural revolution but today kids are just waiting around to be turned into robots by their corporate overlords.
Can I get an OK!
Yes, OK. Like you I don’t watch much TV or listen to current pop music. But I enjoy Kathleen Stock’s style, even when she writes about a pop musician I have never heard of and probably wouldn’t listen to. I might like Stock’s writing even more if she wrote about subjects of greater interest to me, like contemporary philosophy and philosophers.
I enjoy reading Stock too.
I enjoy reading Stock too.
its not realistic to push the envelope of modern music to the same extent as was possible in the 60’s for reasons of it being a fairly finite medium. Decent songs are still made notwithstanding.
I could just as well say Dark Star on Live Dead was boring. After Bathing at Baxters has some highs and lows and was maybe groundbreaking at the time but a lot of modern rock and some pop is worthy of merit. Lana del Rey does have a certain style and songwriting quality even though a lot is samey. There’s an awful lot more independent and ”corporate free” music today compared to the 60’s and 70’s thanks to Internet. Growing up in the 60’s and 70’s was a great time for listening to music but I’m not stuck there. There are still great inventive and exciting bands around today, and Lana del Rey is alright even though I’m not a fan.
There’s been plenty of research to show that the music that we hear when we are young is the music we like most… for most people. Then there are people that continually seek out new music. In fact there is superb music in many styles made very year – finding it is another thing. I’m fortunate that this is my occupation – look up “the in memory of john peel show” if you want to hear a broad range of new music which should suit the seeking type.
Ah, John Peel that rings a bell.
Ah, John Peel that rings a bell.
There’s been plenty of research to show that the music that we hear when we are young is the music we like most… for most people. Then there are people that continually seek out new music. In fact there is superb music in many styles made very year – finding it is another thing. I’m fortunate that this is my occupation – look up “the in memory of john peel show” if you want to hear a broad range of new music which should suit the seeking type.
Telly did well in the 70s and 80s, at least in Blighty. Dad’s Army, Civilisation, Brideshead Revisited…
It was a bit top down, sit down and pay attention but they did give us art
Yes, you got an uptick from me. I was lucky to have enjoyed the best music ever from the sixties through the eighties, all still so wonderful to listen to, still sing along to(kinda) and still dance to(kinda). The Taylor Swift and Beyonce thing is beyond me. The amount of money paid for these tickets is mind- blowing, and apparently Swift has actually positively affected the economy in places where she plays.
It’s probably more that we are at the decline end of a cultural cycle. Pop music is no longer fresh and new, nor going through an obvious period of development and sophistication. We are really still post 60s in many ways – our clothes, our interests, our music. It may be that kids are genuinely waiting for something new.
Lana Del Ray is good, 1989 was also good and not everything is terrible. You didn’t lead a “cultural revolution” – it was packaged for you and you bought it like a hapless consumer. If you were familiar with the influence of America’s intelligence services on your “groundbreaking” pop culture you’d likely spiral into a deeper depression. Also LOL at “richest culture in the history of the world”.
Yes, OK. Like you I don’t watch much TV or listen to current pop music. But I enjoy Kathleen Stock’s style, even when she writes about a pop musician I have never heard of and probably wouldn’t listen to. I might like Stock’s writing even more if she wrote about subjects of greater interest to me, like contemporary philosophy and philosophers.
its not realistic to push the envelope of modern music to the same extent as was possible in the 60’s for reasons of it being a fairly finite medium. Decent songs are still made notwithstanding.
I could just as well say Dark Star on Live Dead was boring. After Bathing at Baxters has some highs and lows and was maybe groundbreaking at the time but a lot of modern rock and some pop is worthy of merit. Lana del Rey does have a certain style and songwriting quality even though a lot is samey. There’s an awful lot more independent and ”corporate free” music today compared to the 60’s and 70’s thanks to Internet. Growing up in the 60’s and 70’s was a great time for listening to music but I’m not stuck there. There are still great inventive and exciting bands around today, and Lana del Rey is alright even though I’m not a fan.
Telly did well in the 70s and 80s, at least in Blighty. Dad’s Army, Civilisation, Brideshead Revisited…
It was a bit top down, sit down and pay attention but they did give us art
Yes, you got an uptick from me. I was lucky to have enjoyed the best music ever from the sixties through the eighties, all still so wonderful to listen to, still sing along to(kinda) and still dance to(kinda). The Taylor Swift and Beyonce thing is beyond me. The amount of money paid for these tickets is mind- blowing, and apparently Swift has actually positively affected the economy in places where she plays.
It’s probably more that we are at the decline end of a cultural cycle. Pop music is no longer fresh and new, nor going through an obvious period of development and sophistication. We are really still post 60s in many ways – our clothes, our interests, our music. It may be that kids are genuinely waiting for something new.
Lana Del Ray is good, 1989 was also good and not everything is terrible. You didn’t lead a “cultural revolution” – it was packaged for you and you bought it like a hapless consumer. If you were familiar with the influence of America’s intelligence services on your “groundbreaking” pop culture you’d likely spiral into a deeper depression. Also LOL at “richest culture in the history of the world”.
It is probably a sign of old age, but I am completely baffled by how anyone can see anything interesting or meaningful in today’s bland cultural landscape. The music of Lana del Rey, Taylor swift et.al is corporate packaged drek, mediocre and boring. Today’s movies are not much better and television, though there is now more of it than ever, is mostly unwatchable. This is particularly acute for boomers who had the richest culture in the history of the world. From Buddy Holly and Elvis to The Beatles and the Stones, the Grateful Dead, the Doors and the Jefferson Airplane, from Charlie Parker and Brubeck to Miles and Trane, the music of the 50’s and 60’s was consistently groundbreaking and brilliant. I weep for today’s children who have to endure the weepy ennui of singers like del Ray and Billie Ellish. We led a cultural revolution but today kids are just waiting around to be turned into robots by their corporate overlords.
Can I get an OK!
I’ve always found her interesting. Whether she is authentic or doing a great job of creating an interesting persona I don’t care. I bought Born to Die for myself and a friend in a pretend indie Manchester music shop (now owned by HMV), and whilst queuing with the 2 CD’s the self-righteous man behind the till was telling the customer being served at the counter how everyone who buys her stuff is a an idiot, none of them know who she really is and on and on. I cheerfully dropped the 2 CD’s on the counter with a big smile. Nothing worse than a pretentious music snob.
I’ve always found her interesting. Whether she is authentic or doing a great job of creating an interesting persona I don’t care. I bought Born to Die for myself and a friend in a pretend indie Manchester music shop (now owned by HMV), and whilst queuing with the 2 CD’s the self-righteous man behind the till was telling the customer being served at the counter how everyone who buys her stuff is a an idiot, none of them know who she really is and on and on. I cheerfully dropped the 2 CD’s on the counter with a big smile. Nothing worse than a pretentious music snob.
I never really cared for the music (except for some of her first few songs). Not that it was bad or good – I just don’t care for music that much. But I thought the article was beautifully written and appreciated how you painted Lana Del Ray so well. Thank you Kathleen.
You “don’t care for music that much”. Yikes!!!
You’re very much expressing a feeling of your time there Clare. Only really since the 60s has music (pop music) become so central to our lives and identities. We don’t just like it, we judge people by what they like and don’t like, and elite pop tastes have grown up to replace the high/low art distinction.
Hence the arguments on here – which would seem very odd to, say, people from the first half of the twentieth century.
Yes, I am expressing a feeling of my time which dates me, of course. However, there seem to be a number of other oldie but goodies here!
Yes, I am expressing a feeling of my time which dates me, of course. However, there seem to be a number of other oldie but goodies here!
You’re very much expressing a feeling of your time there Clare. Only really since the 60s has music (pop music) become so central to our lives and identities. We don’t just like it, we judge people by what they like and don’t like, and elite pop tastes have grown up to replace the high/low art distinction.
Hence the arguments on here – which would seem very odd to, say, people from the first half of the twentieth century.
You “don’t care for music that much”. Yikes!!!
I never really cared for the music (except for some of her first few songs). Not that it was bad or good – I just don’t care for music that much. But I thought the article was beautifully written and appreciated how you painted Lana Del Ray so well. Thank you Kathleen.
See also Taylor Swift upon whom the critics cast shade because they perceive her to be conservative
See also Taylor Swift upon whom the critics cast shade because they perceive her to be conservative
Loved the first album – will have to listen to the later stuff.
Theres clearly a bit too much hyperbole in this piece (and in the critics she quotes – compare Prokofiev, Dylan) but she’s produced some great songs.
Loved the first album – will have to listen to the later stuff.
Theres clearly a bit too much hyperbole in this piece (and in the critics she quotes – compare Prokofiev, Dylan) but she’s produced some great songs.
I had heard of her and just on a whim picked up a copy of “Honeymoon” in a Half-Priced Book store not really knowing what to expect. I popped it in my car CD player on the way home and was stunned by the “God Knows I Tried” track. That song alone is worth the price of admission to her art. I’m well over 70 and have lived through some wonderful years of impressive music: I still listen to The Beatles, Dylan, and Country Joe And The Fish. Fortunately, I have long ceased to “compulsively marry” the “art and the artist,” so I could not care less about her media persona. Go and find the songs, the artist lives a personal life like anyone else in a circus sense. This essay was well done, finding a kernel of clarity amidst the clamor. Thank you.
I had heard of her and just on a whim picked up a copy of “Honeymoon” in a Half-Priced Book store not really knowing what to expect. I popped it in my car CD player on the way home and was stunned by the “God Knows I Tried” track. That song alone is worth the price of admission to her art. I’m well over 70 and have lived through some wonderful years of impressive music: I still listen to The Beatles, Dylan, and Country Joe And The Fish. Fortunately, I have long ceased to “compulsively marry” the “art and the artist,” so I could not care less about her media persona. Go and find the songs, the artist lives a personal life like anyone else in a circus sense. This essay was well done, finding a kernel of clarity amidst the clamor. Thank you.
I find it difficult to engage with this article as I have no idea who this Lana Del Ray is. I don’t think I have ever heard her name before today.
15 minutes of googling and You Tube may reward you with more than you’d know. I’d seen long crowds of young people a while ago outside a venue in Glasgow prior to her concert and seen photos like the one above, but hadn’t listened to her music. She’s attractive, dresses a lot better than punkish or garish equivalents, but more to the point she’s talented and writes and sings interesting songs. She may have botoxed her lips and other features but hasn’t overdone it. Anyway, to her music, downbeat but pop, soulful, creative and stands out from the mass machine-pop. Comments on her excellent You Tube videos say a lot about what she means to her young fans and anyone who’s been through the tribulations of teenage and maturing years should be able to appreciate this. My guiding light was Peter Hammill but that was 50+ years ago. Typical Unherd to focus on appearance, femininity, attitudes but not a lot on the music and melodies. There again, it’s not a music media.
Thanks.
And it’s not a music critique, per se, it’s more about the woman as artist.
Yes Clare, that’s what I said in my last sentence.
Yes Clare, that’s what I said in my last sentence.
Thanks.
And it’s not a music critique, per se, it’s more about the woman as artist.
This is probably not true. It’s not anything anybody says of someone who is really obscure – if Kathleen Stock was writing about an obscure female writer from the 1800s you wouldn’t be so keen to parade your lack of knowledge – particularly if the writer had done enough to explain her fascination with the subject, as Kathleen has done here. In fact in that case you would come across as a charlatan.
No when people say “who” about someone relatively famous they are keen to tell us that they float above popular culture and the Internet, interested in the modern world only so much as they can post “who is that” in the comments section.
That’s a generalization. I was quick to say I wasn’t familiar with her, but that I was planning on finding out. I’m a curious person and excited to know what I don’t know.
That’s a generalization. I was quick to say I wasn’t familiar with her, but that I was planning on finding out. I’m a curious person and excited to know what I don’t know.
Me neither but I plan on finding out.
15 minutes of googling and You Tube may reward you with more than you’d know. I’d seen long crowds of young people a while ago outside a venue in Glasgow prior to her concert and seen photos like the one above, but hadn’t listened to her music. She’s attractive, dresses a lot better than punkish or garish equivalents, but more to the point she’s talented and writes and sings interesting songs. She may have botoxed her lips and other features but hasn’t overdone it. Anyway, to her music, downbeat but pop, soulful, creative and stands out from the mass machine-pop. Comments on her excellent You Tube videos say a lot about what she means to her young fans and anyone who’s been through the tribulations of teenage and maturing years should be able to appreciate this. My guiding light was Peter Hammill but that was 50+ years ago. Typical Unherd to focus on appearance, femininity, attitudes but not a lot on the music and melodies. There again, it’s not a music media.
This is probably not true. It’s not anything anybody says of someone who is really obscure – if Kathleen Stock was writing about an obscure female writer from the 1800s you wouldn’t be so keen to parade your lack of knowledge – particularly if the writer had done enough to explain her fascination with the subject, as Kathleen has done here. In fact in that case you would come across as a charlatan.
No when people say “who” about someone relatively famous they are keen to tell us that they float above popular culture and the Internet, interested in the modern world only so much as they can post “who is that” in the comments section.
Me neither but I plan on finding out.
I find it difficult to engage with this article as I have no idea who this Lana Del Ray is. I don’t think I have ever heard her name before today.
I love when Kathleen does music. Firstly it reminds me that there is more to life than gender sh!t. Secondly it usually provides something to disagree with her about!
I love when Kathleen does music. Firstly it reminds me that there is more to life than gender sh!t. Secondly it usually provides something to disagree with her about!
What about St. Vincent? IMHO, when it comes to feminist musical artists, she stands head and shoulders above any of those mentioned.
Although, she is not really a pop singer; so perhaps, in the strictest sense, not relevant to this discussion.
St. Vincent’s music and live act (which I saw on Austin City Limits, unexpectedly) are intense, a mixed bag for me. Any thoughts on Amanda Palmer?
Or Alice Phoebe Lou?
Thanks I’d never heard of her. The first two songs I clicked on were very pretty, and so is Lou to state the obvious. The vocals on “Lately” reminded me of Aimee Mann to some extent, but I should stop trading names and listen to some more or these good happen-to-be female voices (Iris Dement? Neko Case?).
Thanks for the recommendations.
Thanks for the recommendations.
Thanks I’d never heard of her. The first two songs I clicked on were very pretty, and so is Lou to state the obvious. The vocals on “Lately” reminded me of Aimee Mann to some extent, but I should stop trading names and listen to some more or these good happen-to-be female voices (Iris Dement? Neko Case?).
Or Alice Phoebe Lou?
St. Vincent’s music and live act (which I saw on Austin City Limits, unexpectedly) are intense, a mixed bag for me. Any thoughts on Amanda Palmer?
What about St. Vincent? IMHO, when it comes to feminist musical artists, she stands head and shoulders above any of those mentioned.
Although, she is not really a pop singer; so perhaps, in the strictest sense, not relevant to this discussion.
Don’t have a strong enough reaction to or know enough about the discography of Lana Del Rey to address any specifics in Dr. Stock’s intriguing argument. But having seen her perform on SNL years ago and at least one other time, I’d say there’s something both weird and wonderful about her.
Would it be too unevolved or toxic to note that she is also a total babe, one who channels a type of femme fatale energy in her act?
Don’t have a strong enough reaction to or know enough about the discography of Lana Del Rey to address any specifics in Dr. Stock’s intriguing argument. But having seen her perform on SNL years ago and at least one other time, I’d say there’s something both weird and wonderful about her.
Would it be too unevolved or toxic to note that she is also a total babe, one who channels a type of femme fatale energy in her act?
Never heard of her, but might google her. But then that would show up in my search history, so probably not.
And how would that hurt you, it’s not pornography.
And how would that hurt you, it’s not pornography.
Never heard of her, but might google her. But then that would show up in my search history, so probably not.
It seems to me her only crimes are she is a beautiful young woman as well as a credible artist.
It seems to me her only crimes are she is a beautiful young woman as well as a credible artist.
Kathleen Stock brought me to Lana Del Rey, funnily enough. A few weeks after I read this I was driving my daughter back to college and we were playing songs off each other’s phones. I spotted “Video Games” and asked her to play that. Halfway through the first chorus I was hooked. I started downloading albums, starting with “Born to Die”). I would say four are terrific (her debut, Ultraviolence, Lust for Life, and Norman ****ing Rockwell!!!) and the others are at least good (I haven’t tried Blue Banisters).
I also started reading up on all the absurd controversies that she’s been involved in, beginning with the one that happened before her debut, well expressed in that Jon Caramanica NY Times review that Professor Stock linked to. You can find lots of hostile reviews of Born to Die online. But the album has remained on the charts to this day, which is as amazing as it sounds.
“Some even like to present her as having been on a redemptive personal journey, making much of her having eventually decided to omit in performance a song lyric originally recycled for her song “Ultraviolence” from The Crystals (“He hit me and it felt like a kiss”).”
She sang “Ultraviolence” at Lollapalooza 2023 and the line was in there. Song starts about 58:00. Hypnotic.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5YOrVeGp7DY&t=3495s
It is silly and ignorant to write off Taylor Swift. She appeals to huge swathes of young women because she writes with honesty and insight. And to moan about the ubiquity of popular music is fairly pointless. It hasn’t replaced anything, and its popularity makes it a proper subject for discussion and analysis. Lana Del Ray’s is a particularly distinctive voice (in all meanings of that word) and worthy of intelligent discussion. (And – pace polidori – Dylan’s is even more distinctive, and even more worthy of discussion).
I feel like the judge in the sixties who famously said “Who is Mick Jagger”.I am 70 now.I have never heard of this woman.
But you don’t have to remain ignorant, nowadays, you can Google and Utube her, if you so choose.
Can someone update me with a TLDR ?
Don’t understand the downvotes. Not knowing who Lana is I found the article interminable.
I agree. I thought your post was an honest, neutral-tone admission of unfamiliarity, which you proved by thanking the commenter who blasted his knowledge and admiration at you.
Weren’t you curious enough to find out?
I agree. I thought your post was an honest, neutral-tone admission of unfamiliarity, which you proved by thanking the commenter who blasted his knowledge and admiration at you.
Weren’t you curious enough to find out?
The Lana Del Rey?
Don’t understand the downvotes. Not knowing who Lana is I found the article interminable.
The Lana Del Rey?
Can someone update me with a TLDR ?
I think the issue here is that KS is a little in love with Lana.
Who isn’t
So i was right, the issue is that KS is enamoured of LDR.
It’s not a problem, but it does affect the usual objectivity that KS brings to her writing.
I was in Love with Leonard Cohen my whole life but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t write about him, objectively, as an artist.
I was in Love with Leonard Cohen my whole life but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t write about him, objectively, as an artist.
Every time Lana sings “baby you’re the best” my heart skips a beat.
That’s sweet.
That’s sweet.
So i was right, the issue is that KS is enamoured of LDR.
It’s not a problem, but it does affect the usual objectivity that KS brings to her writing.
Every time Lana sings “baby you’re the best” my heart skips a beat.
I’m a Lana Del Rey fanboy, or to be more accurate fangeriatric.
I mean for example:
https://youtu.be/qolmz4FlnZ0
Magnificent! (and the song’s not bad either).
But I notice, no mention of Pepsi-Cola by Kathleen, bit of a surprise in an article about Lana Del Rey.
I do like Lana’a music but I find it very samey. Each album I have listened to I find myself getting bored after about six tracks as there seems to be little variation. Her music is still decent though, and far better than most modern pop.
There was a lot of upskirting in that video!
Didn’t notice, I was following the storyline.
I buy it for the articles!!
I buy it for the articles!!
Hard to escape when she’s dozens of feet tall.
Didn’t notice, I was following the storyline.
Hard to escape when she’s dozens of feet tall.
I like your song links. You’re a versatile contributor here, sir.
Song is by Sublime – check them out – it’s a cover.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=kxGh6VGxuw0&feature=sharea
Thanks for the link. I watched and listened and it reminded me that I don’t like music videos. I don’t want to see music, it’s so distracting, and I also prefer not to see singers singing. That being said, I must say that having seen Lana I really like the quality of her voice and she’s quite beautiful, but I found her rather narcissistic. It would have been better for me if I’d never seen her.
I like her, and like the video to “video games” with its home movie quality. Prefer Regina Spektor. Sublime have some great songs.
Why can’t we edit, I wonder. I’d like to correct my typos.
That utility gets disabled sometimes. Often when you post several comments within a short timespan.
That utility gets disabled sometimes. Often when you post several comments within a short timespan.
I like her, and like the video to “video games” with its home movie quality. Prefer Regina Spektor. Sublime have some great songs.
Why can’t we edit, I wonder. I’d like to correct my typos.
Thanks for the link. I watched and listened and it reminded me that I don’t like music videos. I don’t want to see music, it’s so distracting, and I also prefer not to see singers singing. That being said, I must say that having seen Lana I really like the quality of her voice and she’s quite beautiful, but I found her rather narcissistic. It would have been better for me if I’d never seen her.
I do like Lana’a music but I find it very samey. Each album I have listened to I find myself getting bored after about six tracks as there seems to be little variation. Her music is still decent though, and far better than most modern pop.
There was a lot of upskirting in that video!
I like your song links. You’re a versatile contributor here, sir.
Song is by Sublime – check them out – it’s a cover.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=kxGh6VGxuw0&feature=sharea
Not sure why the downvotes. It is funny to read this elite academic swoon over a popstar, even if done in an articulate, bookish manner. Still a great article, and it’s on topic as far as the general public’s perception of femininity and feminism, which I believe falls under KS’s purview.
Absolutely. I appreciated the article, as i invariably do with KS. The downvotes are irrelevant, due to the misunderstanding of others. I doubt, for instance, that KS would’ve downvoted.
Absolutely. I appreciated the article, as i invariably do with KS. The downvotes are irrelevant, due to the misunderstanding of others. I doubt, for instance, that KS would’ve downvoted.
Who isn’t
I’m a Lana Del Rey fanboy, or to be more accurate fangeriatric.
I mean for example:
https://youtu.be/qolmz4FlnZ0
Magnificent! (and the song’s not bad either).
But I notice, no mention of Pepsi-Cola by Kathleen, bit of a surprise in an article about Lana Del Rey.
Not sure why the downvotes. It is funny to read this elite academic swoon over a popstar, even if done in an articulate, bookish manner. Still a great article, and it’s on topic as far as the general public’s perception of femininity and feminism, which I believe falls under KS’s purview.
I think the issue here is that KS is a little in love with Lana.