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How Britain ignored its ethnic conflict This year's riots won’t be the last

'In Southport, the spark for the rioting was swiftly absorbed into a wider sense of hostility towards mass migration.' (Getty Images)

'In Southport, the spark for the rioting was swiftly absorbed into a wider sense of hostility towards mass migration.' (Getty Images)


December 20, 2024   8 mins

Following the Manchester Arena bombing in 2017, the aftermath, like those of other recent terrorist atrocities, was marked by what later revealed to be a coordinated British government policy of “controlled spontaneity”. Pre-planned vigils and inter-faith events were rolled out, and people handed out flowers “in apparently unprompted gestures of love and support” as part of an information operation “to shape public responses, encouraging individuals to focus on empathy for the victims and a sense of unity with strangers, rather than reacting with violence and anger”. The aim was to present an image of depoliticised community solidarity within the state’s benevolent, if not adequately protective, embrace.

What we have seen since the Southport attack is the precise opposite response: uncontrolled spontaneity, which government policy is expressly designed to prevent. When Keir Starmer attended the scene to lay flowers, he was heckled by locals demanding “change” and accusing him of failure to keep the British people safe. Self-evidently, Starmer, who in August had been in power for less than a month, bears no personal responsibility for the attack: instead, he was derided as a representative of Britain’s political class, and of a British state that cannot maintain a basic level of security for its subjects.

In the same way, rioters in Southport — fuelled by false claims the killer was a Muslim refugee — cheered when they injured police during the violent disorder that followed the initial vigil, which included attempts to burn down the town mosque in what can only be termed a pogrom. Like the riot that followed in Hartlepool, violence against emissaries of the state — the police — was coupled with objectively racist and Islamophobic actual and attempted violence against migrants.

There are strong parallels with the ongoing disorder in Ireland, which is an explicit reaction to mass migration: last year’s Dublin riots, sparked by the attempted murder of schoolchildren by an Algerian migrant, were in some ways a foreshadowing for the current mass disturbances in Britain. In Southport, the spark for the rioting — the attack itself — was swiftly absorbed into a wider sense of hostility towards mass migration: protestors carried signs demanding the state “Deport them” and “Stop the Boats” to “Protect our kids at any cost”. As in Ireland, presumably local women were prominent, hectoring police and silencing wavering voices with appeals to group solidarity. While this is a very different dynamic to previous football casuals-dominated street mobilisation organised around Tommy Robinson — as represented by Wednesday’s desultory clashes in Whitehall — liberal commentators in Britain, as in Ireland, have nevertheless chosen to portray the violence as orchestrated by Robinson, rather than him piggybacking on it, as is also the case in Ireland.

Shocked by the jolt to their worldview, British liberals, for whom the depoliticisation of the political choice of mass migration is a central moral cause, have also blamed Nigel Farage, the media, the Conservative Party, the Labour Party and Vladimir Putin for the rioting, rather than the explicitly articulated motivations of the rioters themselves. But there is a matter-of-fact social-scientific term for the ongoing disorder: ethnic conflict, a usage studiously avoided by the British state for fear of its political implications. As the academic Elaine Thomas observed in in her 1998 essay “Muting Interethnic Conflict in Post-Imperial Britain”, the British state is unusual in Europe for being “exceptionally liberal in granting political rights to new arrivals” while dampening interethnic conflict by simply refusing to talk about the issue at all, and placing social sanctions on those who do. When it works, it works: “Interethnic conflict has never been as severe, prolonged, or violent in Britain as it has been in many other countries” — for which we should be thankful.

But as Thomas notes, sometimes it doesn’t work, as in Enoch Powell’s famous intervention, supported by 74% of British respondents polled at the time, when, “once the silence was broken and public debate was opened, the liberals found themselves in a weak position. Having focused on silencing the issue, they had not developed a discourse to address it,” and found themselves discomfited by demonstrations in support of Powell. The Labour government of the day dealt with the rising tensions surrounding immigration by rushing through emergency legislation that imposed an effective moratorium on extra-European immigration via the 1968 Commonwealth Immigrants Act, with the aim of assimilating migrants already here and dampening nascent violence by preventing others arriving.

Under New Labour, however, this mostly successful policy was torn up, with the conscious intention of transforming Britain into a specifically multi-ethnic — rather than multiracial — society, largely derived from the era’s brief enthusiasm for globalisation. Downstream of then-fashionable social-scientific theories on the simultaneous inevitability and desirability of such a transformation, policy papers like the Runnymede Trust’s influential report The Future of Multi-Ethnic Britain” pushed to reshape Britain as “a community of communities”, a genuinely multicultural state that rejected the “narrow English-dominated, backward-looking definition of the nation”. Ethnic identities — of which the British one was framed as one among many — were to be embraced, within the parameters of the newly multicultural state, and immigration restrictions lifted to achieve this goal.

Yet Labour’s shift towards an explicitly ethnic understanding of community relations would not last long. Following the 2001 ethnic riots in Bradford, Oldham and Burnley, the Labour government performed a dramatic about-turn. As the Tunisian academic Hassen Zriba observed: “All of a sudden, multiculturalism became the disease that needed urgent solution.” Blair’s government commissioned five separate reports, all of which declared “that excessive cultural diversity is a hindrance to inter-racial harmony, and that community cohesion is the best solution”.

This emphasis on community cohesion was heightened by the mass casualty jihadist attacks of the 2000s and 2010s, leading inexorably — along with the Prevent programme, widened state powers of coercion and surveillance, and the accelerated construction of a civic conception of Britishness — to the “controlled spontaneity” project, the terminus of which we witnessed in Southport. While the other northwest European states which adopted a multicultural ethos, notably Sweden and the Netherlands, have since abandoned it, rhetorically the British state is still committed to multiculturalism.

In practice, however, the British state has quietly adopted a revived version of assimilationism. Over the past two decades, a capacious version of Britishness has been constructed around little more than superficial national symbolism and the desire to avoid ethnic conflict, euphemised as “British values”. Interestingly, Blair himself, who now rejects multiculturalism, has recently become an advocate of Lee Kuan Yew, in whose political philosophy Singapore’s ethnic diversity is, rather than a strength, an undesirable hindrance derived from well-meaning British colonial intentions.

“In practice, however, the British state has quietly adopted a revived version of assimilationism.”

But latent authoritarianism aside, Starmer is no Lee Kuan Yew. His faltering attempt to steer the discourse following the Southport attack towards tackling “knife crime” — itself a British state euphemism — highlights the state’s ideological inability to address ethnic tensions frankly, and so manage them effectively. If it were happening in another country, British journalists and politicians would discuss such dynamics matter-of-factly. This is, after all, simply the nature of human societies. Indeed, it is one of the primary reasons refugees flee their countries for Britain in the first place.

Yet when they occur in our own country, such dynamics are too dangerous to even name. Instead, ethnic groups are euphemistically termed “communities”, and the state-managed avoidance of ethnic conflict is termed “community relations”. When Balkan Roma rioted in Leeds recently, it was as an ethnic group responding to what it saw as the British state’s interference in its lives: the British state, in return, addressed its response to the nebulous “Harehills community”. When Hindus and Muslims engaged in violent intercommunal clashes in Leicester two years ago, it was as rival ethnoreligious groups, and was again responded to by the British state as an issue to be dealt with by “community leaders” — the state euphemism for its chosen intermediaries, in a form of indirect rule carried over from colonial governance.

But when the rioting is carried out by ethnic British participants, as is now the case, the limitations of this strategy reveal itself: the perception of an ethnic, rather than civic British or English, identity is actively guarded against as state policy, just as is the emergence of ethnic British “community leaders”. As such, political advocates of a British ethnic identity are isolated from mainstream discourse, as has been state policy since the Powell affair: any expression of such feeling is what Starmer means by “the far-Right”, rather than any traditionally defined desire to conduct genocides or conquer neighbouring countries. This mainland state of affairs, incidentally, is in strong contrast to Northern Ireland, where the existence of rival Irish and British ethnic groups is the basis of the political system, reified by the British state through the ethnic power-sharing apparatus of the Stormont parliament. In Northern Ireland, Britishness is an ethnic identity: across the Irish Sea, it is a firmly civic one: that these constructions differ is a function of political expediency rather than logical consistency.

This ambivalence over referring to Britain’s various ethnic groups is contrasted by the British state’s deep engagement with identity groups based on race, a cultural quirk that academics have long highlighted, and which distinguishes Britain from its European neighbours. Even today, political discourse in Britain evades ethnicity for a focus on race in a way unusual outside America, where it stems from an almost uniquely stratified slave economy, overlaid on a settler colonial society deriving from genocide. Yet British liberals squeamish at ethnic identities — especially their own — instead obsess over the politics of race. Ethnic conflict is taboo to even discuss in the abstract: but minority racial rioting, even over imported grievances, is viewed sympathetically.

Perhaps well-intentioned, the assimilationist aim of this dynamic was counteracted by the British state’s parallel promotion of the new “BAME” identity, assembling various geographically unconnected ethnic groups together in one political whole solely by virtue of their non-European origin. Instead of reflecting our lived reality of a country now composed of multiple ethnicities, among which are the majority native British, an entirely artificial racialised binary was constructed for ideological purposes, in which the ethnic British, along with other Europeans, were merely white, while non-white Britons were encouraged to self-identify as a counterbalancing force. I am legally, but not ethnically British — like most descendants of migrants, I am perfectly happy with my own inherited ethnic identity — but in pursuit of its own convoluted logic, the British state instead chooses to define me as white, an identity of no interest to me. The long-term contribution to social harmony of this explicitly racialised innovation was, as both the ethnic conflict literature and common sense suggest, doubtful in the extreme, and the government dropped the BAME label in 2022: its mooted replacement, “global majority” is, if anything, more problematic.

The British state’s differing strategies to ethnic-minority rioting, on the one hand, and British ethnic-majority rioting on the other, are, as conservative commentators observe, markedly disproportionate. This may not be “fair”, but it is not intended to be. The function of British policing such tensions is increasingly not to prevent crime — as anyone living in Britain can see — but simply to dampen interethnic violence, in which the shrinking ethnic majority population is, as the literature is clear, analytically the most obvious and potentially volatile actor. In the words of the sociologist John Rex, whose advocacy for a new multicultural Britain was highly influential during the Nineties, the fundamental task of multi-ethnic governance is the twofold desire to “ensure that those who will come are peacefully integrated and that their coming does not lead to the collapse of the post-1945 political order”.

That is, after all, the logic of “controlled spontaneity”: to prevent a backlash to sudden atrocities or a generalised sense of insecurity that would detach the ethnic majority from Britain’s post-Blair settlement and potentially lead to the formation of ethnic parties. Indeed, the formation of explicitly ethnic parties is the deciding factor in what academics term the shift from a pluralist society — in which ethnic conflict is managed within the existing political order, as in mainland Britain — to a plural one, where the political system revolves around ethnic rivalries, as in Northern Ireland. We are not there yet, though the formation of notionally Muslim (but de facto Pakistani and Bangladeshi) political groupings is a step in that direction, as is Reform’s entry to Parliament, understood by Farage’s voters and opponents alike as a tacit ethnic British party, though one with a strong post-war assimilationist rather than ethnic exclusionist bent.

The government’s alarm aside, the potential for serious ethnic violence seems limited, as few of the precipitating factors listed by academic specialists exist: the British state retains vast coercive power, sympathetic elites aspiring to lead majority ethnic mobilisation do not exist, and, in any case, the most heated divisions on the validity of the British ethnic group remain within the British ethnic group itself.

Instead, like the daily drumbeat of violent disorder so new to British life, but now accepted as the norm, occasional outbursts of ethnic violence, whether currently by the British or by other ethnic groups acting in their perceived communal interests, will become commonplace, as in other diverse societies. To manage such conflicts, the state will become more coercive, as Starmer now promises his supporters. But modern Britain isn’t hell: for the most part it works, better than most places in the world, even if it is far less orderly or safe than the country we grew up in. There will be no violent rupture, no radical new dispensation: things will continue as they are, only more so. This is the nature of most post-colonial societies, and now it is the nature of our own.

***

This article was first published on 3 August. It was updated on 5 August to clarify the chronology of the 1968 Commonwealth Immigrants Act.


Aris Roussinos is an UnHerd columnist and a former war reporter.

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Lancashire Lad
Lancashire Lad
1 month ago

I thought AR had this nailed… right until the end. His description and analysis was as good as it gets, but fails in convincing that his conclusion – that we’ll just carry on in the same vein – will hold.

I don’t seek to offer a different conclusion, except to say that we’re in uncharted territory regarding ethnic division. I live in a northern former “mill town” where levels of criminal activity – fostered by specific but also competing ethnic groups – are visibly increasing. For instance, well-run former “indian” restaurants, started as family businsses in the 1970s/80s, have been forcibly taken over, their staff bussed in from outside and largely run for nefarious purposes. In effect, we’re entering “turf war” territory, and the younger generations are the ‘front line’.

Will the lines hold? Who knows, but AR is right in maintaining that’s now the primary job of policing – to try to hold those lines.

All.of this, of course, is outside the experience of those in Westminster. The flip-flopping approach of Blair is now coming home to roost, overseen by a clueless Starmer who studiously ignored the damage done by the Pakistani grooming gangs whilst DPP. The fact that we’re now discussing all this, and in the stark terms set out by AR, is at least to be welcomed. I just hope it’s not too late.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 month ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

Starmer: the technocrat who was 10 years late to the party.

Evan Heneghan
Evan Heneghan
1 month ago
Reply to  Lancashire Lad

Unless you’re onboard with mass deportation, it’s already far too late.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 month ago
Reply to  Evan Heneghan

How about partition?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 month ago
Reply to  Evan Heneghan

As far as I can see more people are coming round to the idea, including the young

Frederick Dixon
Frederick Dixon
1 month ago

I do hope you’re right, ER, (especially about the young) but why do you think so?

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
1 month ago

Since a “two tier” narrative is emerging across justice, policing, government policies, and much else the UK appears.to be seeing a fracturing across several fault lines (ethnic, generational, etc). The real terms decline in gdp (inflation being 6.4% according to Shadowstats) means the fairness of the smaller pie cutting will exaccerbate matters, particularly as we are just starting to navigate the sovereign debt crisis through overt financial repression. So yes, more civil unrest, more censorship, more sectarianism, and febrile politics seems likely. From our perspective it was becoming a very unpleasant country to live in, so we left.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 month ago

……..and we did this to ourselves…
Bustards !!!
A thousand years of British history, bookended by Willian the Bustard at one end and Blair the Bustard at the other.
Cool Britannia, my arse !!!

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 month ago

But modern Britain isn’t hell: for the most part it works, better than most places in the world, even if it is far less orderly or safe than the country we grew up in.
That sentence is meant to be mollifying but it’s actually an indictment of the current status quo, both on the part of the political establishment and many Brits.
This kind of “oh, it’s OK – other places are worse, we should be grateful even though it’s so much worse than it was before” is so telling. OK, so it’s much better to be in Britain than it is to be in – say – Afghanistan. Not going to argue with that.
But this kind of meek acceptance of decline, this lack of ambition and vision, this lack of anger about the stuff that doesn’t work but should (potholes!) is so tragically British.
And frankly, I don’t think my frustration in this comes exclusively from watching my homeland circle the drain so helplessly. A large part of it comes from being self-employed and not being able to be anything other than excellent in order to survive. It follows that this kind of grim acceptance of mediocrity or poor quality is a shock to the system.
Won’t dwell more than I have to this festive Friday morning. I’ll just say that, in the coming years I hope to see Brits standing outside their doors banging their pots and pans, shouting “This is rubbish and we want better”. That will be progress.
On a separate note, well done to Aris for boldly speaking about the problems of multiculturalism. It is my new hobby to see how fast I can make liberal bottoms clench at parties by addressing these issues. Very entertaining!
Living in a very multiculti area where I see the good, the bad and the ugly of migration every day, I feel entitled and qualified to do it and think having an open conversation about the various thorny issues is a crucial first step and living peacefully together.
And guess what – the bottoms that clench fastest are the ones belonging to people who don’t live anywhere near the problem.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 month ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Just wait until the economy nose dives and the government can’t pay the benefits

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
1 month ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Modern Britain isn’t hell – but don’t worry, they’re working on that.

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago

Downstream of then-fashionable social-scientific theories 

This is perhaps one of the most shocking things: that academia does in fact operate very much like fashion, while those outside take it seriously (when it suits their agenda).

Those within academia know this instinctively – their careers depend on being “on trend” and knowing who the trend setters are. And these trends are not always driven by fresh evidence or better analysis, any more than fashion is always driven by better materials and designs.

The result being that decisions of lasting and irreversible impact can be made (or at least justified) based on a fad.

Lindsay S
Lindsay S
1 month ago

“as Starmer now promises his supporters.”
Starmer has supporters?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago
Reply to  Lindsay S

Polly Toynbee seems to think he just needs us to give him more time to come good.

William Amos
William Amos
1 month ago

I wonder how many are aware of the speech known as the Allahbad Address, given by the Philosopher, Poet and Politician, Sir Muhammad Iqbal, in 1930 in which he ariculated the Two Nation theory of Islamic autonomy within the British Raj. A Nation within a Nation, as it has been described.
This remains the foundational declaration of intention around ‘Islamic’ distinct-ness within an existing British state. If one replaces the word India with the word Britain then this well describes he current situtation in Muslim Britain :
“The principle of ‘European’ democracy cannot be applied to India without recognizing the fact of communal groups. The Muslim demand for the creation of a Muslim India within India is, therefore, perfectly justified. The resolution of the All-Parties Muslim Conference at Delhi is, to my mind, wholly inspired by this noble ideal of a harmonious whole which, instead of stifling the respective individualities of its component wholes, affords them chances of fully working out the possibilities that may be latent in them. And I have no doubt that this House will emphatically endorse the Muslim demands embodied in this resolution.”
We needn’t look to Blair or Boris, Enoch Powell, Tommy Robinson or Globalism for our explanations. Our situation is not even strictly analogous to Europe. The tension between Islam and secular loyalty within the context of ethnic strife comes specifically from South Asia and from our own history in that part of the world as it emerged in the late Raj.
The genealogy of the new ‘Troubles’ in this land began in British Hindustan. The descended spectre of Communal Violence has now, at last, reached in the erstwhile Imperial Motherland, with the grandchildren of the same British Subjects who first wrestled with Proteus on the issue.
I increasingly think we should be studying the history of Indian partition for lessons on what the future might hold for Britain. Let us pray that we can resist the errors and enthusiasms which could lead to a similarly bloody ‘Partition’ here, while there is still time.

Sayantani G
Sayantani G
1 month ago
Reply to  William Amos

Very right. I am writing on the era and can see history repeating itself….
An unfortunate consequence of the 1857 events in India was that Crown rule wasn’t the liberal imperial rule of EIC but increasingly favourable to Muslim separatism..

michael harris
michael harris
26 days ago
Reply to  Sayantani G

The EIC regarded religious enthusiasms as a damper on trade; it even for a while excluded Christian missionaries from its territories. The Crown Raj (in modern days the Blob) was not specifically pro Islam. But Islam was, to the English Protestant mind, more comprehensible as an iconoclastic monotheism than Hinduism. The Catholic Portuguese were better attuned to a multiplicity (apparent) of Gods. Their main horror, in Kerala, were the Syrian Christians who knew not the Pope in Rome. Heretics!
A Roman Catholic friend, entering a temple for the first time in Chennai, found it rather familiar. Side shrines to Ganesh and Parvati brought to his mind the small chapels of Saints or the Blessed Virgin that he knew from the Cathedrals of Europe.

Evan Heneghan
Evan Heneghan
1 month ago

Tony Blair and the last 30 years of leaders, have done more to destroy the United Kingdom than the two world wars combined. Absolute traitors to the people they were elected to represent, and slaves to fashionable academic viewpoints that have truly destroyed the country.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 month ago
Reply to  Evan Heneghan

I have to agree. I find the sight of his grinning face in the linked article utterly nauseating. And like all his ilk, not a trace of humility or self-awareness.
After the destruction he has wreaked on British society he should crawl away to hide under the nearest stone. Instead we have to suffer on an almost daily basis his desperate efforts to remain relevant by trying to present himself as some kind of elder statesman.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 month ago
Reply to  Rocky Martiano

To me his face has the appearance of Dorian Gray’s portrait

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 month ago

“Starmer, who in August had been in power for less than a month, bears no personal responsibility for the attack”
On the other hand, he was a singularly supine DPP from 2008-2013, while Pakistani paedophile gangs raped industrial quantities of White girls with the passive connivance of authorities steeped in institutional woke racism.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
30 days ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

Pakistani grooming gangs had been operating long before 2008. We moved to live in Handsworth in Birmingham in 1988. Muslim grooming gangs were trying it on with Sikh girls then. But the Sikhs, having 300+ years experience of dealing with predatory Muslims fought back – with their young men on the streets. This was described vaguely by the local press as “quarrels over women”. The time when Starmer was DPP was when the problem of the grooming gangs was just beginning to emerge from the shadows and the first mass trials place towards the end of his tenure.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

Mass ethnic deportation is the only answer … I recently flew back into London for a meeting and it was like West Africa … nor one white person .. none. Islam is rising rapidly and our continent is being balkanised while all of the elites bury their heads, or worse, sing the ‘diversity is our strength’ mantra.

If we are to avoid losing our only homelands completely to the Afro Islamic MENAP invasion, drastic measures are needed and soon.

By 2050 there will be 1.5 billion extra Africans. Where will they go? We know where if allowed. We must end it now.

William Amos
William Amos
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Can one, without irony, propose ‘ethnic deportation’ on the one hand while lamenting increasing ‘balkanisation’ on the other?
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster… for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” 

Jim M
Jim M
1 month ago
Reply to  William Amos

Get rid of the invaders. Mass immigration is just done to save the doomed welfare state and is a bonus to the donor class for them to get the maximum amount of cheap labor. The group that is going to survive in the 21st century is the group most capable and most willing to commit genocide against competing populations.

Jim M
Jim M
1 month ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

You’ll have to ki11 them or be destroyed.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 month ago

The white riots of the late 1950s left people subdued by the harsh sentences visited on the rioters. The appearance of the Notting Hill Carnival was an attempt to gloss over what was happening. Instead we got Cameron’s assertion that=British values included tolerance and diversity, which was certainly untrue historically. Maybe the 500000 or so out migrating each year don’t agree.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 month ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

Maybe we should start a campaign for them to be pardoned

Martin Goodfellow
Martin Goodfellow
1 month ago

Politicians and ‘progressives’ may get a surprise one day, that the extent of change they wanted hasn’t happened, and denying it won’t work anymore. British people are tolerant, and even like the presence of minorities, but they don’t want to be replaced by those minorities. Let’s not forget that the British were thrown out of India, and most of the old empire. Similar things could happen here, making ‘change’ much different than some expect.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
1 month ago

When Trump mentioned an enemy from within, this was part of it. A pluralistic society is only possible under certain conditions: 1) no hyphenated people. You are an American, Brit, Whatever of X heritage, but you are first an American, Brit, Whatever. 2) There is a national language; learn it. Millions did so in the US during the 20th-century immigration waves. 3) Rampant immigration is incompatible with a welfare state. Again to 20th century America – people who came were expected to be self-sufficient; there was no taxpayer-funded housing, food, etc.
The farce of diversity is that it discounts the unity necessary for a cohesive society and nation. Bring your foods, festivals, and other cultural events, but do not try to create here what you fled there.
Shocked by the jolt to their worldview, British liberals….have also blamed (everyone but themselves). Which is on-brand for the left.

B Joseph Smith
B Joseph Smith
1 month ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Borders, Language, Culture. Oops, never mind, Michael Savage of San Francisco is “Banned in Britain”

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
1 month ago

Pretty good diagnosis – but not so sure about the prognosis.
“To manage such conflicts, the state will become more coercive, as Starmer now promises his supporters. But modern Britain isn’t hell: for the most part it works, better than most places in the world, even if it is far less orderly or safe than the country we grew up in. There will be no violent rupture, no radical new dispensation: things will continue as they are, only more so. This is the nature of most post-colonial societies, and now it is the nature of our own.”
I’m not sure things will just “continue as they are, only more so.” I wonder if the author thinks of Trump and Farage as “continuations of what was”? I think they embody new political movements that are not satisfied with the current glide path.

John Tyler
John Tyler
1 month ago

” Starmer, who in August had been in power for less than a month, bears no personal responsibility”
Not entirely true. Both as leader of the opposition and DPP he favoured, in words and action, an agenda that has led to bitter resentment on the part of many people, a minority of whom inevitably go beyond legal restraint.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 month ago

Ethnic violence is being held at bay by low unemployment. The potential for violence would be much higher in a financial crisis.

El Uro
El Uro
1 month ago

Even today, political discourse in Britain evades ethnicity for a focus on race in a way unusual outside America, where it stems from an almost uniquely stratified slave economy, overlaid on a settler colonial society deriving from genocide.
.
This is not what I expected to read in UnHerd.
.
It seems that the process of kneeling before the “oppressed” has entered an irreversible phase.

Richard Turpin
Richard Turpin
1 month ago

I’m afraid the elephant in the room is Islam. The religion of peace is growing at a remarkable pace, mosques are full each and everyday and churches are empty. There is no ballast to counter its pernicious nature nor its inability to separate church and state. The liberal left will not dare challenge the tenet’s of a mindset that is misogynist and racist in nature and the antithesis of everything represented by western values. Yet still, the conversations surrounding its influence and the dangers it poses are never to be had. Where are the liberal feminists and members of the alphabet club when Islam comes into view? Nowhere to be seen. It won’t be long before an Islamic party gains serious traction and then as a voting block, the implementation of Sharia Law will begin, all the while being applauded by the very minorities Islam will seek to eradicate.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 month ago
Reply to  Richard Turpin

See ‘Submission’ by Michel Houellebecq for this very scenario.

Richard Turpin
Richard Turpin
1 month ago
Reply to  Rocky Martiano

I’m afraid, having lived in Islamic countries, it’s not a case of if, it’s when. Europe is sleepwalking into a conflict and a religious overlord that compromises for absolutely nobody which ironically, is its strength. The West and its liberal ideologues have become so preoccupied with eating itself in the pursuit of identity politics, Islam has made huge ground. The population demographics are multiplying faster than statistics allow for , schools in many urban areas by demographic are now Muslim as are councils and school boards. All without a shot being fired. To this day after 3500 predominately white girls have been raped and murdered, and probably more beyond the veil, not a feminist in site and nor has anybody stood up and questioned the role if Islam in Western Societies, why is that? Its the biggest threat to Western democracies as its growing within countries and not outside of them.

Karl Juhnke
Karl Juhnke
22 days ago

Self colonization. The Indigenous people of Britain are having their culture of family, democracy, human and workers rights destroyed by globalists using academic, political and business insiders.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago

As the Author says ‘…modern Britain isn’t hell: for the most part it works, better than most places in the world…’. Yep that’s right. Just travel a bit more and you ‘get it’ rather than all this ‘end is nigh’ drivel.
Author suggests it’s less orderly and safe than it was. He’s just too young to know any better and buys into this classic ‘rose tinted’ view of the past. Rioting has always happened often driven by divisions between groups. There remains lots wrong, but what’s primarily changed is the speed at which we hear about things. Overall society is less violent, less racist, less prejudiced, less misogynistic. The arc of progress is strong but pretty bumpy.
Basing himself in N Ireland will of course provide some useful comparisons and insights into what some feel it means to be British. I feel though that he tends to downplay we had essentially an ethnic War there for 30 years. It’s not all sweetness and light now, but were the Author old enough to remember the late 60s and early 70s in NI it might reinforce a perspective about how much better things can be and how peoples can find a way to live together.

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

I think what irks most people is that we have created a situation prone to ethnic conflict as a result of actual policy. How bad it will get, who knows.

If we were all living prosperous lives as a result of mass immigration, with affordable housing, high wages and luxury lifestyles, then we might just say that was the price we had to pay. But we are not.

Sure, ethnic conflict may be far worse elsewhere – but if it gets that bad here, the difference is that we brought it on ourselves – it wasn’t an historical accident.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  David Morley

Let’s put aside the illegal migration – we want that stopped. On the ‘legal’ of course whilst our aging population creates a necessity and a vibrant economy needs skills from the world over, much is because we’ve ducked other trade-offs and relied on migrants. You assume without them you’d be better off. In fact there is a very strong argument for the reverse, and certainly in things like health and social care you’d be in real trouble. Yes migrants create demand of their own, but often much less than they contribute (in aggregation).
Conflict won’t get worse unless certain actors decide to weaponise it.

Andrew R
Andrew R
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

“Yes migrants create demand of their own, but often much less than they contribute (in aggregation)”.

The migrants contribute more than natives argument is completely dishonest, a fallacy. If we take it to its conclusion, then that would mean “replacement”, something that the progressives say is a conspiracy theory.

It’s as an absurd argument as say proposing recolonisation and eugenics in Africa by skilled Europeans because giving birth, raising children and providing care to the elderly is a drain on the economy.

It’s Utilitarian nonsense on stilts.

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

First of all I’m not completely against immigration: it’s the pace and extent that is the issue, both in itself and because it has given us no chance to gauge the risks and adjust accordingly. I also think that the type of immigrants we have taken in have often been a poor fit for a modern, secular urban country like the U.K.

Also I believe that recent research has shown that we are not in fact better off. Indeed that mass immigration might be a partial cause of the issues we face. That it is a net cost.

Finally of course it was not the promise of immigration that it might make things less awful than that they might otherwise be. We were told it would make things better.

j watson
j watson
30 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

I agree on the volume and pace being the issue rather than immigration per se. I also agree that the type of migrant can be an issue – low skilled with a v different religious background can add cultural challenges, which is why it was bonkers we swopped EU immigration for throwing the net much wider, which included more pressure to take whole families given the distances – proper Brexit dividend wasn’t it.
There is data that show in aggregation migrants contribute more but that does not mean ‘all’ and the lower skilled where we have more issues. (Illegals clearly do not contribute more, they can’t work, so that is separate).That said the migrants picking our fruit & veg work exceptionally hard as do so many in social care. The problem is breadline wages.
The public lie is more that we don’t want to face the challenges weaning ourselves off migrant labour would give us, but it’s a lie that reflects an unwillingness to face that in many of us.

David Morley
David Morley
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Conflict won’t get worse unless certain actors decide to weaponise it.

I think a key part of the authors argument is to suggest that under certain circumstances ethnic conflict is pretty much inevitable. There seems to be much evidence for this.

Leaving aside large empires which have managed to control such conflict through external power, can you name some genuinely multiethnic societies where ethnic conflict has not broken out sooner or later? What are these societies like?

Of course there will be actors who weaponise it. That’s how interethnic conflict works.

j watson
j watson
30 days ago
Reply to  David Morley

Depends what we mean by ethnic conflict. If you mean the sort of civil war one saw in the 90s Balkans, then yes – the USA. Look at what a melting pot of immigrants that was and has been. In fact as we better appreciate now it’s one of the reasons it became the world’s most vibrant economy and still is.
If you are saying such conflict characterised by occasional gang type battles, then that is hardly new. Football hooliganism was about your local grouping and identity and rife in the 70s. Imagine if a horde of Muslims started terrorising train carriages as some Millwall fans did travelling to some club up North. Be all over the papers wouldn’t it. Yet it happened, regularly. Just a different type of ethnic grouping.
It is poss things get wiped up though but UK learnt alot of lessons in NI too and such mistakes I doubt get repeated easily. Plus more turned out on the streets in anti-racism demos in the summer than in the one’s that turned violent. Core of the country is moderate and not easily stirred.

Alex Lekas
Alex Lekas
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

Let’s put aside the illegal migration – we want that stopped
You cannot put aside the heart of the problem, and who is this “we”? Not anyone in govt, judging by their actions.

j watson
j watson
30 days ago
Reply to  Alex Lekas

Just show us a link to anyone who wants it to continue or supports it. You won’t find anyone AL other than in some conspiracy theory twaddle. The question is how to stop it and that’s complex and beyond the rage of many.

Wilfred Davis
Wilfred Davis
1 month ago
Reply to  David Morley

I think what irks most people is that we have created a situation prone to ethnic conflict as a result of actual policy.

… we brought it on ourselves …

I’m sure that you are right that this sense makes it particularly irksome.

But to be precise, it wasn’t we who created it, but successive politicians persisting (why, for pity’s sake?) against the clear wishes of the people.

Frederick Dixon
Frederick Dixon
1 month ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

Why indeed. Well said.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  Wilfred Davis

I think the problem is WD is you wouldn’t have voted for the trade offs. You’ve probably wanted tax cuts and low inflation, and decent health and social care if poss too. And probably no idea what would happen were we to switch off the tap on legal migration.
I think we would probably all concur we want less and we must tackle the way certain industries and sectors are too reliant. But this isn’t a light-switch change and it’d take time, time electorates rarely give politicians.

j watson
j watson
1 month ago
Reply to  David Morley

Let’s put illegal migration to one side as pretty much all agree this should stop (it’s just much more complicated in how, but separate debate). As regards ‘legal’ one could make a strong case that a reason you are as prosperous as you are is because of legal migration. Our demographics require it, and our mode of capitalism is wedded to it. Vast majority of legal migrants put in more than they take out. The trade offs if we want less would be painful, at least for some time, and we wouldn’t easily vote for those would we. So it’s twaddle we were never asked – we’ve wanted to avoid a full discussion and politicians are just a reflection back of our own ‘cake-ism’.
Ethnic conflicts needs actors who weaponise difference. Grossly over simplistic narratives about how we got here help them.

Andrew R
Andrew R
1 month ago
Reply to  j watson

“Vast majority of legal migrants put in more than they take out”.

Not this twaddle trotted out endlessly. My reply (below) to you yesterday which has disappeared along with your comment.

The migrants contribute more than natives argument is thoroughly dishonest, a fallacy. If we take it to its ultimate conclusion, then that would mean “replacement”, something that the progressives say is a conspiracy theory.

It’s as an absurd argument as say, proposing recolonisation and eugenics in Africa by skilled Europeans because giving birth, raising children and providing care to the elderly is a drain on the economy.

It’s Utilitarian nonsense on stilts. Have the left become totally unhinged from reality?

j watson
j watson
30 days ago
Reply to  Andrew R

Just go and look at the data AR. Look at a group of agricultural seasonal labourers picking your lettuces who didn’t need UK schooling, hardly use the NHS because then they aren’t working and don’t get paid, and live in a hut near the farm. Thousands like that hidden from you whilst your prejudice unabated.
The ‘replacement’ theory in the way it’s conveyed utter twaddle that only simpletons and those v prejudiced already buy into. When the Irish emigrated in huge numbers same argument was made. But what is true is demographics do create reliance on having sufficient young paying tax. We can do more to get our own economically inactive back into work, but remember the majority of them are in the 50-65yr category. They ain’t bending their backs in a field or helping an elderly person in a care home go to the toilet easily are they. Needs more thinking about than you seem prepared for.

Andrew R
Andrew R
30 days ago
Reply to  j watson

You have opinions and fallacies, no argument or logic. We simply cannot go on importing millions of people because of “reasons” and “trade offs” it’s simply unsustainable. A good number of those in the 50-65yr demographic are first generation immigrants.

Countries with mass immigrantion produce low skill, low wage (low tax), part-time service jobs with there being little in the way of investment in training or innovation. They are not economic powerhouses, they create a paradox of dependency.

Mass immigration has been a failure economically, socially and culturally, the greatest domestic political failure in modern times but the Left cling on to it like a young child does with a teddy bear (emotion over intelligence).

Ideology > logic = chaos

j watson
j watson
29 days ago
Reply to  Andrew R

Mass immigration what drove the USA to become an economic superpower AR.
But examples aside, you just continue the same theme – all rage about it but little understanding what we need to do differently to have much less. You suffer I suspect from severe ‘cake-ism’ coupled with an inability to grapple with complexity. It’s not an uncommon mix.

Andrew R
Andrew R
29 days ago
Reply to  j watson

You’re desperate so it’s back to projection again. There is no rage with me, your ideology has failed miserably (as they all do), the rage is entirely with you.

To compare the USA of the 19th and 20th century with modern Britain is laughably absurd (hmm, do you believe in colonialism then?). Look at the USA now and its broken border, all the industry has gone so let them enjoy the shanty towns and the inevitable criminality. The utilitarian utopia has finally arrived. Hurrah!

If you believe we can continue on the same (failed) simple path we’ve been following for the last twenty years, then it’s you that has an inability to grapple with complexity. The child like notion of believing in a “better world” through ideology by rejecting reality is the ultimate in “cake-ism”. The complexity is produced by paradoxes the ideology creates.

Oh, by the way if you really want people to no longer believe in the “replacement” conspiracy theory, it’s easy; stop importing millions of people into western countries without their citizens consent.