Away from the horror unfolding in Israel, the past month has provided one long acid test for the West’s commitment to liberal values. What are we to make of middle-class bien pensants asserting that mass murder requires “context”, of the overt antisemitism, and of a police force that makes excuses for theocrats calling for “jihad” on the streets of London? For some, this is proof of the failure of multiculturalism. For others, it is the final straw that broke the back of liberalism. Hate speech laws must now be strengthened, certain protests ought to be banned, and we must no longer tolerate the intolerant.
Republican senator Tom Cotton has called for those who express support for Hamas to be deported, and Donald Trump has promised to do so if re-elected. In France, Emmanuel Macron has outlawed pro-Palestine rallies on the grounds of maintaining public order, although his decree has been largely ignored. Closer to home, a pro-Palestinian protest has been scheduled in London for Armistice Day, a tactic surely intended to generate as much outrage and attention as possible.
In that respect, it has already succeeded. Rishi Sunak has stopped short of a ban, but has called on the Met Police to make “robust use” of its powers to prevent the Remembrance events being disrupted. In this, he is out of kilter with the majority of the country: only 18% believe it “should be allowed to go ahead”.
Liberalism has always been a tricky prospect, cherishing personal autonomy and freedom of speech up to the point where our behaviour encroaches on the rights of others. To ideologues, it is a poison, because it rejects their insistence that we ought to follow a preordained set of rules. Some even claim that liberalism is itself an ideology, though I see it as the precise opposite: it is the repudiation of ideological thinking — because it refuses to accept oversimplified interpretations of reality, or to outsource our decision-making capacities to an already established creed. This is why there are liberals on the Left, the Right, and everywhere in between.
Yet it has been dispiriting to see our commitment to Enlightenment values being assaulted on multiple fronts. There are theocratic extremists who oppose free speech and would happily see blasphemers and apostates executed. There are Western activists intoxicated by the moonshine of intersectional identity politics calling for censorship and other restrictions. And now, we have those who once considered themselves to be “liberal” pronouncing that there should be limitations to freedom of speech and assembly.
Even those who have previously decried “cancel culture” appear to be relishing its impact on their opponents. A lecture at Liverpool Hope University by Professor Avi Shlaim, a critic of Israel, was cancelled out of concern for the “safety and wellbeing” of students; Michael Eisen, a geneticist at UC Berkeley, was fired as editor-in-chief of eLife magazine for sharing a satirical article from The Onion which took a pro-Palestine stance. Eisen, some have pointed out, had previously questioned whether cancellation really exists. But while a degree of schadenfreude is understandable, it is hardly helpful.
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SubscribeThe protests should absolutely be allowed to continue, and the pro-Hamas demonstrators should be catalogued and filed for deportation if they are not UK citizens. If they are citizens, and not UK born, they should be investigated to see if any ties to terrorist organizations render their citizen applications fraudulent.
And if any of the vandalise the Cenotaph (other other key monuments/memorials) then, as Suella Braverman said: they should be in a jail cell faster than their feet can touch the ground.
*takes a moment to process the shock at having spontaneously quoted Suella Braverman*
But the point that gets lost is that the march is intended for Saturday, not Remembrance Sunday. People are confusing the two because this year Armistice Day is on a Saturday, and populist, disingenuous rabble-rousers like Suella Braverman are exploiting this juxtaposition. London will be full of shoppers, tourists and the like on Saturday 11th, and there will be little or no attention paid to the silence. It would be divisive to march on Remembrance Sunday, especially if any march approached Whitehall or the cenotaph, but there is no march organised for Remembrance Sunday; let’s not lose sight of that.
Whether the march is on Saturday, Sunday or any other day of the week – or any other day of the year: damage to the Cenotaph is proof that British history and values are being rejected.
Saturday is actually Remembrance Day.
No one knows that anymore. Alas, but there we are.
Whenever those on the right point out how the idiot ideas of the Left have failed – just as those on the right predicted – there is always be some predictable reactionary who will pop up to accuse the Right of exploiting the damaging, colossal failure for “dog whistle” politics.
We told you multiculturalism would be a disaster for social cohesion. We told you those imported from the most violent, corrupt, conflict ridden, intolerant parts of the world would bring their failed ideology and culture with them. We told you that teaching young people to hate their country would not lead to utopia, but to a fragmented society in which those with the loudest voices and most willing to assert cultural dominance – the most intolerant – would prevail.
So it has come to pass. The disgusting spectacle of seeing tens of thousands march through our capital in support of a a neo-Nazi ideology is what the Left’s foolishness has delivered. to our country, and pointing that out is not exploiting the situation; it is holding the Left to account.
I especially appreciated the Queers for Palestine group.
I thoroughly enjoyed this response, Marcus!
I’m very confused because I would say I’m left rather than right, but I don’t support anti-semitism in the guise of pro-Palestine, so when you keep blaming the” left” for horrible things I feel very uncomfortable. Perhaps you could qualify your condemnation to the extreme left or the radical left.
Actually I can understand it, I think there should be some new terminology for left and right.
Exactly. Thank you.
The left/right argument was imported from the USA, where two party politics is the norm. In the UK, left wing/right wing politics are more nuanced. But it doesn’t stop lazy people using the American argument! I am a lifelong socialist and am horrified at the pro Palestine apologists who will not admit that Hamas is responsible for the current situation in Gaza. Israel as a state has the right to exist and to defend it’s self. What was it meant to do after 7/10? Someone please explain… As for marching for Palestine and condemning Israel, these people need monitoring as with freedom of speech comes responsibility. That responsibility means that antisemitism has no place on any march and anyone being antisemitic should be arrested and charged.
Yes – and even more confusing is the argument that not being on board with the killing of more than 10,000 Palestinians in the last few weeks automatically makes you anti-semitic, even if you’re a Jew.
And that somehow being in support of all Israeli aggression makes you not anti-semitic. Lots of anti-semites now and in the past have also been in favour of an expansionist Israel fighting against the Muslim world, from Hungary’s leader Victor Orban to Holocaust mastermind Reinhard Heydrich – people like this are fine with Jews being abroad in conflict with the Arab world, as long as they’re not here among us.
Thank you Marcus, for those important words.
First class Marcus.
holy kek, imagine copping this hard with delusionary cognitive self protection that you somehow manage to *convince your own mind and self* that an article that clearly, in plaintext, written as a criticism of conservatives wishing to restrict and censor protesting by the left is actually an article about the left’s own policies
Indeed, the disconnect that has me laughing audibly while sitting alone is so severe that I may have to come back in a while lest I wake up the other residents in my home.
Bullshit.
The decision to protest on the 11th is a calculated insult – and perhaps the final straw.
The police *must* deal with it – or the indigenous population just might deal with it themselves.
As if most of ” the indigenous population” knew what Armistice Day was.
76 per cent of people agree with the marchers, 58 per cent strongly so. Strong disagreement is confined to three per cent, one person in 33. Are there well over 50 million Hamas sympathisers in Britain? Are there 40 million staunch supporters of Hamas? Or, my dear three percenters, could it be that you are the ones who are out of step? And which other opinion that was held by only about two million people should be aggressively promoted by both main political parties and by the entire news media? Abuse us all you like. You called us every name under the Sun over Iraq, when we were the overwhelming majority, as we are now, and when we were proved right, as we are being now.
…where do those numbers come from?
YouGov. What did you think were the figures, and why?
…there seems to me to be a very big difference between favouring a ceasefire…which I personally oppose, because Hamas themselves have said they would use it to prepare for another genocidal attack on Israel…
…and supporting an Armistice Day March calling for that genocide…as all those preceding it have done…
…for me, “From the River to the Sea” can only have one meaning, and that is it.
I doubt if public support for the one translates directly across to public support for the other. Apples and oranges…
Agreed. The YouGov poll he links to is asking about whether there should be a ceasefire in Israel & Palestine. Directly transposing those results onto whether this march should take place is a bit of stretch, to say the least.
And that was the point that I was making. Armistice Day is the perfect day to march for an armistice, as favoured by three quarters of the British population.
…but this march is not for an armistice…it is to assert support for the Hamas Genocidaires…two of whom have now been identified as being involved organising these odious demonstrations…
…as I say, “From the River to the Sea” has only one meaning…as any decent person can readily see…
It occurs in the constitution of Likud.
Of course there are not a million Hamas supporters in Britain. Have a word with yourself.
Probably over two million. Think about it . 4m Muslims , mainly from a pre -enlightenment culture and from a country like Pakistan where people suspected of ‘blasphemy’ can be pulled from home or work place and burned alive in the street to the acclamation of on-looking locals .
I support freedom of expression and protest as being part of a civilised enlightened country . But after the ‘Nakba’ of immigration policy ,of the last 70 years , but especially under Blair , it looks like being impossible to sustain that ideal . ,
Initially posted in the wrong spot – sorry
The aim of the marchers is a ceasefire. Or what else do you think it is? Either way, there is no polling on the intentions of the marchers so it is hard to know for sure, but given that yougov poll we know most Britons do want a ceasefire. And what we also know about the poll is that Tommy Robinson’s brigade, defending the Cenotaph from enemies that never appeared, caused far more problems than the 100s of thousands of pro-Palestine marchers..
The YouGov Poll is asking whether there should be a ceasefire to prevent further civilian causualties in Gaza – a view shared by 78% of the British public and neither of the only two political parties capable of forming a Government in this country.
In that context, it is very strange indeed to assume, as you appear to, that those attending the march on Saturday – or any of the previous ones – are marching in support of the murderous crimes of Hamas. Would it not be more sensible to assume that the march will mostly be attended by people who simply want the bombing to stop and, secondarily who want a workable pathway to peace in Israel Palestine?
Will there be some people there who have stupid and offensive views? Yup. Would it be better if people who simply want peace chanted something other than “From the River to the Sea” – an ambiguous phrase linked to some pretty unsavoury views? Very much so.
But, if every political view was characterised only by the expressions of its dumbest and nastiest adherents we’d never get anywhere – would we. Because, if we did that then what I perceive to be your side of the argument would be charactarised by people who call the Palestinians filthy animals and who advocate bombing Gaza to the ground and exterminating everyone in it. i.e. by people who advocate the mass murder of around 1m children. And let’s not pretend that that sentiment doesn’t exist – it’s been expressed on this very site from time to time.
I’m assuming that you don’t hold that view. Perhaps you’d do the marchers the enormous favour of assuming that most of them are pretty decent human beings who simply want to see a peaceful end to one of the world’s nastiest and most intractable conflicts.
And perhaps you’d like to suggest how such people should, in your view, express their disappointment that neither their Government nor their loyal opposition represents their views.
In forming your answer, feel free to reflect on the fact that both Lbour and Tory Governments have been in full consensus in favour of a series of 21st century conflicts and that every single one of them has been a disaster that has left the affected region far worse off than before.
How should the people who were right about these catastrophic conflicts (Iraq, Libya, Lebanon, Ukraine etc) and who were mocked and scorned on each occasion, express their views to the politicians who have been so serially and unanimously wrong about them?
But how do you know Hamas want a ceasefire more than they want to provoke Israel into an overblown reaction that loses them international support? I personally think they know that their own destruction is now the best hope of action being taken against Israel (and they have enough disregard for their own people to think that way). And you can see this strategy working for them in the form of all these marches + the shifting of some leaders’ positions in tandem (e.g. Macron now calling for a ceasfire).
I don’t agree with Elon Musk on many things but I think he made some thoughtful comments in the link below, arguing for ‘conspicuous acts of kindness’ from Israel (sounds ridiculous at first, but think about it: are you more likely to join Hamas if you see Israel helping your countrymen or if Israel kills your child?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2myO-slp7w
‘For every member of Hamas you killed, how many did you create?’
‘An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.’
Wouldn’t it be nice if people reflected for two seconds on the respective track record of calling for peace and calling for war in the 21st century?
I’m in general sympathy with your well-expressed views on this comment board. But how would you measure such a “track record”?
Those who advocate no military engagement are not therefore freed from any association with bad consequences that ensue–nor directly to blame.
For example: In an alternate past where the U.S. did nothing military or extra-judicial (Guantanamo Bay) in response to 9/11, those who wanted a warlike response could lay some associative blame on the no-war side if more incidents of 9/11 scale terrorism occurred soon after. Not without some justice. But not all the blame. No path creates a world of total safety or non-harm.
And those who advocated going into Afghanistan in 2001 or Iraq in 2003, for example, may bear some associative blame for what followed. But not for how long we stayed, nor for every grievous act done by guards at Abu Ghraib or by frazzled third-tour Western soldiers in war-torn neighborhoods of the Middle East.
A WWII counterfactual in which Britain and then the U.S. stuck to Neville Chamberlain’s initial stance toward Germany’s aggression: What would have happened? Possibly fewer deaths during the years 1939-1945, but accompanied by a victory for Global Fascism.
I want to see more courageous adherents to nonviolence, but not more advocates for retaliatory or reciprocal contempt–we have too many of those already (not directed at you, sir). But a pacifist or nonviolent approach doesn’t eliminate bloodshed, though it may very well lessen or “re-distribute” it. So the “track record” is not perfectly clear, let alone beyond dispute.
I admire pacifists and those who promote total nonviolence. I wish I would follow them with a stronger heart. But some of the world’s sickest killers merit nothing but immediate death, and it is very hard to kill some of them without sacrificing some innocent lives (though overall we do not do nearly enough to minimize such horrors).
Just as my general opposition to the death penalty contains exceptions for the most depraved–like Ted Bundy, who escaped prison to kill several more women before recapture–the last one-percent of my support for warfare, in some instances, is hard to kill.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments and please forgive my lengthy reply.
How would you have stopped Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan or Timur the Lame ?
I don’t know that I’d have succeeded in stopping a determined, heavily-armed, and too-well-manned tyrant. But while attempting to do so, I’d hope that even with a tactical or numerical advantage, I would stay my (putative) commanding hand from slaughtering every man woman and child for being in the same village or of the same ethnic stock as some hated tyrant and his militant followers. Nor would I–I hope and believe–have obliterated a whole village in Vietnam because a few Viet Cong and many sympathizers–male and female, adult and child–were sheltering there.
How do you suppose you would have stopped Attila, or Saladin?
Again, I am against war as a normal or halfway “default” response, not opposed to arms in every situation.
My nonviolent aspirations predominate, but I recognize the world we live in too. At least I’m not entirely naive. And I won’t stand by while you (the extended “you”) threaten my loved ones, for example.
Saturday 11th November 11th hour of 11th day and month fo keep up
Harken, O citizens: ’tis the voice of the Cowardly Enabler.
Do you think Jewish people will feel safe ? We appear so concerned about people’s feelings, what about Jewish people walking around London ?
We have always recognised the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month as a moment to fall silent to respect those who gave their lives in 2 world wars and since, serving our country. Certainly we baby boomers grew up with that understanding and stood still and silent at that hour of that day every November.
Remembrance Sunday is the specific time to stop and gather together as a nation without too much disruption to the economy.
Thanks for this reason and balance (doesn’t look like it’s going to come from anyone else). I’m away most of this weekend so I’ll have to let you take this shift alone..
As an American who has grown weary of being lectured by you sophisticated Brits about our gun violence: Wake up to what’s happening to your country while you are still able to stop it.
Yes it is their democratic right to protest, if they understood our culture however then they would not plan this march on a sacred and holy day. It’s an own goal, and when no doubt there are people pictured vandalising and waving abhorrent messages then public opinion will turn against them even more.
The organisers do understand our culture. Like Sir Oswald Mosley’s East End march 87 years ago the point is to provoke. They are not seeking to persuade but to intimidate.
Quite right. It is assertion of cultural dominance. And as we can see from the craven response of our police and politicians, it is a tactic that has served these animals well.
Indeed. They are playing us like a fiddle and abusing our rights as we commit cultural suicide.
The days when the Police had members such as Paul Ackford, Dean Richards, Wade Dooley and were not scared of physical violence appear long gone. Historically the Police had very good rugby teams and most clubs had a fair number of police playing for them.The Special Patrol Group had their own rugby team. Now the Met Police Rugby Team play in Counties 3 Surrey.
The filth are still happy to use violence when it comes to women at a vigil for Sarah Everard.
There is no march on Remembrance Sunday.
It’s clear from your posts, that you, along with the limited people you know, have little interest in the 11th if it doesn’t fall on the Sunday. However there are plenty of people who do see the importance.
From Wikipedia (I’m not Rachel Reeves):
In the United Kingdom, the main observance is Remembrance Sunday, held on the Sunday nearest to 11 November. There is a National Service of Remembrance in London, as well as other services and ceremonies in the regions.
So you denounce the Telegraph but quote Wikipedia. As I stated many people do see the 11th as an important day and activities are carried out.
Yeah. That nasty, woke, left-wing Wikipedia, lying about the UK Remberance Sunday observation. So many disingenuous cretins on this site.
I think you mean Wokipedia 😉
Indeed. Lol. And an uptick for your quip.
Who needs Wikipedia? Everyone knows this. What do you think that people do on Armistice Day? There is a two minutes’ silence at 11am, and that’s it. Even that is now barely observed. Sadly. But undeniably.
Actually it has got better in recent years I am delighted to admit.
Back in let us say the 70’s it was almost forgotten and almost completely unobserved.
Nowhere near as long ago as that, in fact.
No, you are correct, I was trying to be generous!
In 57 years of being a native Brit, with uncles and grandparents who fought in WW2 either as conscripts or professional soldiers and airmen, not to mention those on the home front, and I don’t recall one of them bothering with 2 mins silence on Armistice Day. Although I do remember watching the Remembrance Day service on TV fairly regularly.
I’d agree with that. I started teaching in 1975, and for many years, no one in those schools gave two hoots about Armistice Day, though poppies were sold in reception. However, around 2010, our headteacher decided that we’d have a special assembly on November 11th, and that the two-minute silence would be observed during lessons – and that’s happened every subsequent year. That’s only one personal experience, but it’s I don’t think it’s exceptional.
To you it maybe a 2 minutes silence and then life moves on; to others it maybe different. Why do you think your view of the world is the one that we should follow.
Who needs Wikipedia? Everyone knows this.
“The limited people I know” including almost the entire metropolitan populations of the UK.
Ah the good old metropolitan population. You should get out and about a bit more, you never know you may start to question your luxury metropolitan beliefs.
Are there? Who are they? It gives me no pleasure to say that the two minutes’ silence on the 11th has barely been observed outside schools, and therefore even less on a Saturday, in at least 30 years. But that is undeniably the case?
Perhaps we should mention that on Friday the 10th November, at precisely 8.32 pm a little ceremony of Remembrance will be performed at the entrance to Platform 8 of Victoria Station.
Why? Because at precisely that time in 1920 the train carrying the body of the ‘ Unknown Soldier’ arrived at Victoria. It is estimated that 2 million people had watched its journey of about 70 miles from Dover to London, from every conceivable vantage point.
That’s actually very interesting.
You can be quite sensible when the mood takes you.
Exactly my first thought.
Many have not understood the threat from these people. I hope that we have become a little wiser now.
Good!
It is not a sacred or a holy day. It is a, secular day to remember those who gave their lives so we could have freedom of speech. This needs to be taught in schools and colleges so that it is never forgotten. Migrants need to be taught this too. Those organising these marches know exactly what they are doing. It is nothing to do with the Left or the Right like these are homogenous groups. Its to do with the right of freedom of speech but without the responsibility to others. The press/media should ignore thqm all.
They’re calling for a ceasefire on the day that another ceasefire was achieved – in what way is it an inappropriate day to protest? Quite the contrary. If not, then it seems armistice day is a celebration of rather than a mourning over war.
It would almost be a sort of achievement to vandalise the Cenotaph when you started a good mile and half from it and then marched further away.
I have just returned from the march – which was peaceful. There were Muslims, Christians, Jews, the daughter of a Holocaust survivor, children, nurses, elderly …. The main chant and desire was ‘Cease fire now’. People are horrified by the ongoing violence in Gaza where so many victims are children. The police were discrete, relaxed, good natured and alert to a tiny group of right wing protesters who they said they recognised as a group who keep turning up to cause trouble. I was proud of your police and grateful to them. I am against the violence of Hamas and the violence being perpetrated on the civilian population of Gaza. It is not an either / or situation; it is both / and.
People in the West Bank are also suffering and fearful.
A diplomatic just solution is needed. We need wise leaders who want justice for both sides. Inflammatory rhetoric from politicians is not helpful.
When did Hamas supporters say they would allow Jews to live as equals to Muslims?
Great if the Tories hadn’t let the criminal justice system and the prisons degrade to such an extent that it’s barely possible.
Nothing authoritarian about that. Maybe they should also be imprisoned if they take disrespectfully framed photos of said monuments, as is the law in North Korea.
I thought you were going to be ‘away’ this weekend. Never mind – we can give you all the shi(f)t you can handle and a little bit more.
‘Most’ of it. And that’s very kind of you! We need more online war hawks like you fuelling the Tories’ misreading of the national mood, sealing their obliteration at the next election 🙂
Being sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian people does not make one pro Hamas or a supporter of mass murder.
So why do marchers allow those carrying Hamas or ISIS flags or chant genocidal songs to march with them. If they can’t control their own they should not be allowed to march and offend
There’s a widespread reluctance to acknowledge that Jew hatred is a central tenet of Islam and that all Muslims are therefore anti-semitic (in the political sense) to a greater or lesser degree. Islamic texts tend to be relaxed about the casual slaughter of Jews – when not actually calling for it.
The liberal west tries to apply our own generosity in our desire to understand where another person is coming from to a culture and ideology that has no interest in compromise and compassion.
The greatest fallacy and myth we bought into, those of us naive and blinkered to be, was the idea that every culture and ideology is innately equal and “good” – that all are equally desirable if you simply have the right eyes to see. This has been a terrible lie, the only great culture has been the miracle of western civilisation, the fruits of which create the freedoms and prosperity admired and sought by those of every other culture and society for centuries.
Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a hateful oppressive ideology and hatred of Jews is fundamental to its teachings.
From the Hadith: ‘You will fight against the Jews and you will gain victory over them. The stones will saying: ‘Oh slave of Allah! there is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him’
I have seen no sign of Hamas or Isis flags or chants.
There’s quite a strong correlation between the two though.
It is clear to anyone who looks at it objectively that Hamas don’t really care about the plight of the Palestinian people, indeed the more of them that die as Israel takes action to defend itself the better as far as Hamas are concerned.
I am sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinian people and would like to see a solution where they and the people of Israel (20% of whom are Arab) can live side by side in peace and prosperity. I do not support Hamas or trying to achieve what I would like to see through mass murder or “any means necessary” by either side.
Hamas don’t want peace they don’t want any solution other than wiping out 80% of the population of Israel. The removal of Hamas is a legitimate goal which more of the world should support and not just leave it up to Israel to achieve.
Well said.
Maybe more tha 80% given that one of the first to be killed that day was the wife of an Israeli Arab farmer (Muslim!)
Indeed, particularly as there is a significant contingent of Druze and Bedouin in the Israeli army.
Very well said. You’ve articulated my position exactly. Thank you.
Show me where arabs are prepared to allow Jews to live as equals and have full rights in any future country?
Show me where a Jew can live as an equal to a Muslim in a Muslim run country?
But have you noticed the dancing in the streets of those people when Oct 7th happened as also 9/11? Sure there may be those who do not act like that, but the general expression of the public appears to be spontaneous on the ground.
Who knows if the people are just sympathetic to the Palestinians and not Hamas. I don’t recall seeing any banners on the demonstrations, asking for the hostages taken from Israel to be returned. That’s a choice they are making, which sends a message to some onlookers.
Being sympathetic is one thing. Chanting for the death and destruction of the only democratic nation in the middle East is another. Marching in favor of the death to the West, while living in our country and receiving benefits from the very same taxpayers is beyond the pale. That’s what this is about.
Absolutely, it’s massively hypocritical.
Saying ” from the river to the sea “, mentioning Khaybar when Jewish men were murdered and women enslaved and not pushing for freeing of hostages, demonstrates a desire to destroy Israel and kill Jews.
Battle of Khaybar – Wikipedia
I would suggest people chanting ” Remember Khaybar ” is no different to chanting ” Hitler was right “. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Al Husseini was a friend of Himmler, raised Muslim troops for the SS and supported the Final Solution. 5000 Nazis took refuge in Egypt and Syria post 1945 and assisted these countries in expelling Jewish people in 1948. Arafat was a nephew of the GMJ.
Relations between Nazi Germany and the Arab world – Wikipedia
Quite correct. Astonishing that something so obviously logically true is disputed.
Equally, someone could be sympathetic to the Palestinian people and absolutely opposed to Hamas and mass murder.
This desire to see everyone belonging to a tribe which all shares the same beliefs really isn’t helpful.
Hamas is the *elected* government of Gaza.
The ‘Palestinians’ elected them *because* of what Hamas stands for.
The entire population of Gaza should be ejected into Egypt. Or, preferably, taken in by Communist China. They could live with their brothers, the Uyghurs.
So what ?
Not all Palestinians live in Gaza. Only a minority. There are also Palestinians in the West Bank who don’t vote for Hamas. 3m Palestinian population in West Bank vs 2m in Gaza, so unlikely that a majority of Palestinians actually support Hamas then.
There are also Palestinians (Arabs) living within Israel itself who support the Israeil state. And no doubt even a few in the Israeli army.
The pretence that all Palestinians think and believe the same is absurd.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but find some of the things being said here are simply ridiculous. And ultimately unhelpful.
Sadly, the appalling behaviour of Hamas has also brought out the worst in some people on the other side. Your arguments here are doing your cause no favours. It’s like watching Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley effectively working together to destroy any centre ground.
Mr Elliot, you’re a low life, racist thug.
BTW the more downtics I get in the comments section of Unherd the more I know I’m on the reasonable and humane side of the argument.
No Branagan, as always you are a complete prat.
My heartfelt commiserations, but there is NO known cure.
I think not.
In theory you are right that being sympathetic to the sad state of the Palestinian people is not supporting Hamas, but that’s not what the demonstrations are about. They are chanting Hamas slogans like “From the river to the sea,” which is code for eliminating the State of Israel by killing everyone in it. That’s about jihad, not Palestinians’ oppression. And Palestinians’ ongoing oppression comes from Hamas, which committed mass murder in Israel, and that is what the demonstrators are supporting and applauding.
As well, when demonstrators hurl rocks at the police or at counter demonstrators that is no longer peaceful protest and legitimate exercise of freedom of expression. That is violent assault, which exceeds the boundaries of liberal tolerance. Tolerance of legitimate freedom of expression, even of unpopular causes, should not be confused with tolerance of threats, intimidation and violence.
But noone is allowed to counter protest. Similarly against the IRA, like any not anarcho socialist demo destroyed by violence from the far left. As the weasel words from the Beeb say, ‘ violence broke out’.
Are you sympathetic to the plight of the several hundred thousand Middle Eastern Jews, million plus Turkish Armenians or millions of Hindus in Pakistan and Kashmir who were made refugees around the same time or more recently, and treated far worse than the Palestinian perma-victims?
None of them seem to go around committing terror attacks, killing babies or committing large scale sexual assaults against random muslim women, it seems. Seems like that’s the criteria for gaining “sympathy?”
The fact ‘Hamas are terrorists’ placards were violently withdraw by the ‘crowd’ (mob) says everything about the nature of these marches.
The Arabs who – in recent decades – have adopted the ‘Palestinian’ identity *elected* Hamas. Probably would do so again.
Spewing anti Jew hatred however? If the cap fits mate….
Being sympathetic to the plight of the hostages does not make one anti-Palestinian people.
When Khaybar is mentioned, the intention is mass extermination of men.
You seem to be suggesting a level of scrutiny for people whose views you don’t like that you wouldn’t suggest for people with whom you agree. That’s problematic from a free-speech perspective. As commenters below remind us, a commitment to free speech discriminates between speech and action, not between viewpoints we like and those we don’t. The exception is threatening or inciting violence — a line that may be crossed by people on any side of heated disagreement.
Immigration policies obviously and urgently need serious reconsideration in the UK, the US and other liberal Western societies. But abandoning an historical commitment to free speech seems neither a wise nor effective means to do so.
Calling for murder, rape, and genocide should never be protected speech.
Yes. I found that suggestion very creepy; “cataloged and filed…” Some people, it seems, are too quick to apply Big Brother methods to those they disagree with.
No, just those who advocated genocide. That’s not a legitimate point of argument. If your position is “we should kill all the Jews” or “we should bring back chattel slavery” or “we should impose Sharia law on a Western nation”or “human sacrifice is a legitimate religious practice”, you don’t get to participate in the marketplace of ideas. If you’re not a native born citizen, you shouldn’t be allowed to stay in the country.
Or this
Pretty drastic but drastic times call for drastic measures. To me it feels as if we have a trojan horse amongst us. I have no doubt that when they reach the majority they will have no mercy on those who do not follow the religion as has happened in many nations in the past.
Their citizenship applications need not be fraudulent. The Home Secretary has the power to revoke citizenship in the public interest, and should be acting aggressively to do so against terrorist sympathisers.
Has the Royal British Legion objected to Saturday’s planned expression of the opinion of 76 per cent of the population? Armistice Day is the perfect day to march for a ceasefire.
“Armistice Weekend”? They are just making it up now. This march is not on Remembrance Sunday, it will start hours after the two minutes’ silence (the point of which on Armistice Day has always been that it interrupted what was otherwise a normal day), it will go nowhere near the Cenotaph, and in fact as a march from Hyde Park to the American Embassy, it will be a march away from central London. And there has never been any such thing as “Armistice Weekend”.
Suella Braverman is goading Rishi Sunak into sacking her, so that she can launch her bid for the Leadership and the Premiership. Yet the other side agrees with her on everything from this march to homelessness.
Exactly – she’s trying to create a false culture war between Palestine and poppies. There’s nothing unpatriotic about marching for a (quite possibly futile) war to end just after observing our sorrow over another (quite positively futile) war (WWI – ps find me an historian who thinks it did the world any good)
Great idea but sadly impractical – particularly taking account of our dysfunctional police force led by a useless Chief Constable and backed up by an equally useless deputy.
Arthur, do you honestly think any of those responses you mention above are going to be implemented? My view is that that boat sailed long ago
But how do you do that?
Good luck deporting three quarters of the population who agree with a ceasefire.
Very thoughtful essay. These people hate us, they want to destroy our prosperity and freedom, and they are pushing free speech to the breaking point.
So what do we do? I would reluctantly support their right to protest this weekend, but at some point they have to be held accountable.
You can’t have people running around openly celebrating the slaughter, rape and kidnapping of civilians. I also noticed the cowards in the photo accompanying the essay are all wearing masks.
It’s a wicked problem for sure. We need to eradicate the Marxist, authoritarian ideology that has infected so many of our institutions, but how do you do that without becoming authoritarian yourself?
It’s a gross generalisation and distortion to say “These people hate us, they want to destroy our prosperity and freedom, and they are pushing free speech to the breaking point”. The police themselves pointed out that the marchers have been peaceful, and the organisers cooperative. There are people from all backgrounds at the marches and sit-downs. If you don’t like the protestor’s message, that’s your right, but you’re committing an ad hominem attack in your post.
I happen to think it would be divisive for any protest to go ahead on Remembrance Sunday, but I’ve never known anyone paying much attention to Armistice day (Nov. 11th) – it’s just because it falls on a Saturday this year, abutting Remembrance Sunday, that a fuss is being made, especially by disingenuous, populist politicians like Suella Braverman and Rishi Sunak.
Most of our politicians are disingenuous, so that’s not making much of an accusation. See plastic Starmer for starters.
The march is in support of Hamas, which is a proscribed islamic terrorist group, so the fact that many of those attending are dim fellow travelers, many of them marching in support of an organisation that would exterminate them given the opportunity, is ironic.
The march is being organised by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign under the slogan National March for Paestine – Ceasefire Now.
https://twitter.com/PSCupdates
The Met says it can find no grounds to prevent the march from going ahead. And, of course, the provision or expression of support for a proscribed terrorist organisation is a criminal offense. So, if the Metropolitian Police thought that the March was in support of Hamas, it would be duty-bound to shut the march down.
So to put this as gently as I can, you are allowing your prejudices to prevent you from perceiving the obvious.
Peaceful and cooperative? Really? Considering that according to The Telegraph a significant portion of the organisers have a direct connection to Hamas, these are not adjectives I would choose to describe these groups and individuals! I have personally witnessed a similar protest whilst on holiday in Vienna, Austria in October, and once again, “cooperative and peaceful” were not fitting descriptions for what I saw and heard!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/
‘according to the Telegraph’…
But what if the “gross generalization” is merely repeating what comes from the protesters themselves? Are you ok with replacing our Western values with Sharia law? That is their stated intention, not our gross generalization.
They’re not out there chanting free Palestine, we want a two state solution. The overwhelming majority of these people, Muslim and non Muslim, think Israel and the west are colonial oppressors and they are the oppressed. It’s a divisive ideology that seeks to destroy the oppressors.
They could march another Saturday.
But, in a free country, there’s no reason why they should have to.
When Police arrest people for a wrong tweet are we in a free country? The decision to accept free speech is very subjective now; anything which fits a Cultural Marxist/Third Worldism view is acceptable; others are not.
That’s a very, very English name given that you sound exactly like someone who loathes our traditions and quite possibly isn’t really from here at all.
Are you sure your name isn’t really one of the multiple variations of ‘Mohammed’ that the ignorant and obtuse insist on calling all their male children?
Come off it Elliot that is well OTT!
Have you never heard of Thomas Paine? For that is who William represents.
It’s not “OTT”, it’s straight up racism.
James. For heaven’s sake do better.
I respect Remembrance Sunday and also bought a poppy from a vendor in Central London, as I do every year. Yes, it is a very English name; I’m named after my grandfather, although that’s no concern of yours. Is Elliott a Hebraic name by any chance?
Certainly only the Mail wrote about the fires in Edinburgh, the violence in Bradford etc. So they were ‘ mainly peaceful’.
A good innings William, 51 after 11 hours at the wicket!
“A bumping pitch and a blinding light, ten to make and the match to win…….”
Yes indeed. Probably time for a tea break.
Year ago I was having a drink with a woman detective constable in Bradford. So I said to he ” Presumably you speak Urdu ” she look amazed and shook her head. The Authorities need people with the same fluency as the Indian Civil Service in Arabic, Urdu, Turkish, Farsi, Punjabi and Pushtun plus an understanding of Islam and Muslim Groups. Instead they use members of various Muslim Groups.
The simple approach would be to recruit ex SIS Middle East Experts. The anglican Church in the Middle Est has some excellent scholars. When dealing with Hamas one needs an underrstanding of Shiite Theology and the various polical changes in Iran back to Shaikh Fazlollah Nuri. In 1906 Constitutionalists in Iran adopted the French Revolutions charter of human rights which was rejected by Nuri.
The Nuri/ Khomeini position completely rejects all Western ideas of human rights as Unislamic.
William you show no understanding of the theological roots of Hamas and therefore do not appreciate the problems with dealing with them. It is theology: theology as politcs and one cannot divide the two in the Khoemeini / Khamenei World.
Ali Khamenei – Wikipedia
Many of the women would be horrified to understand the Shiite view of women expressed by Khomeini.
Jews voting fro Hitler in 1933, comes to mind.
What a valuable contribution to the discourse. Thank you, Mr Hedges. (Sadly, am reading days after the discussion passed).
Thank you. The basic history and theology is being ignored without which one cannot imagine the scale of the problem.
You have to know the difference between right and wrong and decide even though it is a risk. It is called leadership.
“to call for the deportation of citizens who actively seek the demolition of our culture is to surrender our principles to the very people who oppose them. It is to resign oneself to authoritarianism in a perverse effort to defeat it.”
Completely idiotic statement.
It ignores the fact that these people are not a tiny, insignificant minority any more. We’re importing tens or hundreds of thousands of them every year – and these are people who think we’re weak and useless & who simply want to take control. They’re not ‘persuaded’ by us nobly sticking to our liberal principles. They mock those principles & take advantage of us. Plus they have ever-increasing political power, and they know it.
Try saying “I’m a pacifist” to an oncoming army. You’re going to get massacred.
Agreed- as (US) Justice Jackson noted in a case during WWII: “The Constitution is not a suicide pact.”
Speech is not “free” (as in a “‘free for all’) if it threatens violence. The holdings that defined “fighting words” (which are not protected) have been desecrated by the relativists on our Supreme Court over time, but was defined (as recently as 1942) as:
Words that by there very utterance TEND TO
(1). inflict injury as (generally understood – related to the legal definition of assault) AND tend to
(2). Incite an immediate breach of the peace (as generally understood).
Short and sweet. Again, liberal values don’t require that we fall on our sword as the barbarians try to destroy liberal values.
Wellsaid.
Like the Trojan horse incident.
Trojan camel, in this case.
Possibly Trojan donkey.
Massacred only if he is lucky. Slowly and methodically tortured to death on video is more likely. I wonder if Ole Andy has ever learned what an impalement entails?
“References to impalement in Babylonia and the Neo-Assyrian Empire are found as early as the 18th century BC.”
So says Andrew Doyle.
And yet there is a dilemma. Those principles are easily exploited by those who actually despise “very foundations upon which our civilisation is built” and would dearly love to tear down society and rebuild it to plans in keeping with their ideology. If your number one principle is freedom of expression then whatever is expressed matters much less than the right to express it.
Will public opinion and rational argument really serve to keep the intolerant in check when the young and Woke, who are growing in number so rapidly, ring-fence their beliefs by shutting down or ridiculing rational debate?
There is no dilemma with regards to whether a demonstration should be banned.
Yes there is a big correlation between people who will match in support of Hamas and people who despise our society and culture and are a threat to it.
But people are allowed to demonstrate peacefully. It really is true that if we start banning demonstrations for causes we don’t like we are as bad as those people.
The answer is to let the demonstration go ahead but to arrest every single person who carries out, or threatens or incites violence.
And if there are too many threatening or inciting violence , then police will just stand by, as they usually do, and as the organisers know they will.
That means a big risk though. What if we let it go ahead and there is much violence? What would you say to those people who suffered from the violence? Sometimes safety should be put above freedom of speech perhaps? I don’t find that there is much speech to give freedom to just a lot of chanting.
I am a firm believer in our U.S. 1st Amendment rights when those who are speaking or protesting are legal citizens, regardless of the topic. But when the protesters are here illegally, drawing benefits from the taxpayer and they openly call for the destruction of the host society, I must acknowledge that it causes me to pause and reflect.
Then let them march at another time – when they can’t disrupt Remembrance, for that is the intention.
We ban peaceful demos all the time, as Doyle must know. There just has to be a suspicion of a reaction or threat from the other side. Never a problem in this nation of moral cowards.
This is so typically limp it makes me angry. Our 30 year ideological multicultural State has totally surrendered to whichever identitarian street Mob – BLM and now Muslim – frightens it the most. It surrendered the old principle of free speech decades ago, once it saw Rushdie books burning in Bradford and it is pathetic to pretend it flourishes here now. Soon a cowardly Labour will bring in their new Blasphemy/Race Equality laws forbidding any criticism of Islam. The State Militia are allowing aggressive Muslims & their Progressive allies – who have not truly denounced a terrible Pogrom (where are the moderate Muslim voices?) – to tear down Kidnap pix and drive the tiny Jewish population off the streets, just like in Paris. No march should be permitted within 5 miles of the Cenotaph on Armistice Day. That ceremony trumps everything. If that silence is ruined by vile chants Joe Public will get the message loud and clear.
At the moment they are on their knees begging for the march not to go through Whitehall. Let’s hope that changes to “it cannot go through” if they get no answer.
Agree. It cannot and need not go through near Cenotaph. If they do not move location, they will have shown enormous provocative disrespect.
Where are the NF when you need them? Mostly joking.
But they wont be stopped.
You are the identarian street mob here.
While I understand the point the author is trying to make – the article leaves out a fairly key (and well known) caveat around free speech
In John Stuart Mill’s “On Liberty,” the principle concerning freedom of speech is often summarised by the “harm principle.”
Mill argues that the only justification for interfering with someone’s liberty of action, including freedom of speech, is to prevent harm to others.
His argument suggests that people should be free to express any opinion, no matter how unpopular or distasteful, as long as it doesn’t incite violence or harm to others. This includes the idea that society or the state should not suppress or punish speech merely because it is offensive or controversial.
However, speech that incites violence or harms others does not enjoy this protection and can be rightfully restricted.
If we assume that the protesters will be asking for puppies and ice cream to be handed out to all – then fine. If not, then perhaps the motives and aims of the protestors should be reevaluated using the harm principle as laid out by Mills all those years ago.
Or maybe they will end up punching poppy sellers, again
Poppy seller veteran, 78, tells how he was punched by pro-Palestine protesters
Just on the off chance that someone comes back here to look – here’s what the Police say about that alleged incident having checked all the CCTV and interviewed witnesses:
https://x.com/BTP/status/1722332871988244940?s=20
UK law allows for those who incite or glorify violence to be prosecuted.
Unless JS Mill trumps Popper, we have no state.
The problem is how “harm” gets redefined to include the emotional harm done by hearing things you consider offensive. The woke not only exploit this but exaggerate it – refusing to use someones preferred pronouns = transgenocide.
Direct incitement to commit illegal acts should be banned but nothing else.
Well said. There is a world of difference from expressions of differing opinions in
Cyber space & media and the presence of mass 100 000 physical Mobs on the streets. The latter has the far greater power to menace and to intimidate. It is how our sense of order and security can be challenged – Bastille, Tehran. This is why Mills was right. The all too craven Police must get this call right. London’s streets are already effectively Jew-free. Stay home Jews. This cannot be right. Its wake up time for the all too silent Moderate Muslim leadership here as well as on the West Bank and Gaza.
Very good point. We have to risk thinking outside the box sometimes.
The contention that competing parties exercising free speech and debate will lead to a society where the triumph of reason and truth will eventually prevail over unreason and lies feels hopelessly naïve
I have read and seen much of Andrew’s work and he is clearly an intelligent man, steeped in Enlightenment values. If everyone else, or at least the vast bulk, were similarly committed to those values, then I would be inclined to agree with him.
However Enlightenment values run, to a large extent, contrary to human nature, in which are base instincts are powerful forces that are difficult to subdue. To continue and prevail they need constant generational societal reinforcement in a similar manner to religion; from the cradle. to the grave.
But through importation of millions whose culture is antagonistic to those values, and through he indoctrination of children and young adults in to a malign form of Leftism – a perverse “progressivism” which smashes away at the pillars which form the foundation of western civilisation – the proportion of the population committed to those values, and who can brought to see truth and reason through free discussion, is rapidly declining, a process that will only accelerate. The Enlightenment is being snuffed out.
History is replete with examples of great civilisations with sophisticated, intellectual cultures that fell to barbarians who took joy in smashing them to pieces. I expect many of them thought they could reason with the barbarians and convince them that they were destroying something precious to no purpose. But they were overwhelmed and destroyed.
Only by removing the foreign cultures and retaking the institutions – particularly the education system – will our culture survive. That will entail us fighting by any means fair or foul, with more commitment, aggression and purpose, to defeat those who would send us back in to the dark ages.
Very good – an uptick from me. Yet your core argument, summed up in your final paragraph, tells of a battle that needs to be fought. Yet where will this fight take place? In the forums and opinion columns of online media? What are these ‘fair or foul’ means. Will ‘commitment, aggression and purpose’ be just more strongly worded opinion and ‘forceful’ argument? Without a popular grassroots movement of some sort power in our institutions is bound to be taken by activists. Their guilt-selling, moral browbeating intimidates all but the most determined opposition.
Remember when we all laughed at those over-sensitive snowflake students who were due for a hard lesson in reality once they left uni? Well, they are now staffing the admin offices of public and private institutions all around us – snowflake sensitivities fully intact. So who’s getting the hard lesson now?
You mentioned what I regard as the answer: “a popular grassroots movement”.
The best party on offer at the present time is Reform UK. But as we see from the polls, they are struggling to get the momentum to break the Tory’s de facto position as the party of the Right.
In other European countries, under PR, large, traditional parties of the Right that followed the Tory’s path of surrendering ideologically to the Left, have been whittled down to electoral minnows and replaced by parties embracing real right-wing, conservative policies.
In Britain, the Tories can count on FPTP to ensure they benefit from the wasted vote argument. Getting Reform UK in to the position where there is enough support to break that barrier is where attention should be directed.
So far Reform UK has relied primarily on gaining support through publicising its policies in the media. That can only take it so far given that “progressives” act as gatekeepers for much of the MSM.
Reform needs to become, as you said, ” a popular grassroots movement”. It needs to build up an a proper organisation just as the Labour movement once did. It needs local constituency associations, an army of activists who will go out in to the pubs, the workplaces, the colleges, who will organise local community events to bring voters in to discuss their concerns and hear Reform’s message. In short, they need to go to voters directly, whenever and wherever they are.
After the next election the Tories will be routed. Reform need to be ready to take advantage of that period of weakness to push itself forward as the natural home of right-wing conservative voters. To do that it needs to set up the organisation I suggest. A good place to start would be to target every Local Conservative Association in an effort to persuade them to defect to become Reform UK associations. Pinch as much of the disillusioned Tory grassroots as possible.
Have you told them that and will they listen? I never hear them mentioned anywhere but they shall get their chance to go to the doors, but then it might be too late?
What I would most like to see in the short term is serious investigative journalism exposing to full public view the extent to which our major institutions have been colonised by activists. Raising public awareness of this should also raise public anger at the way in which pressure groups have sidelined our democratic system to force through their own agenda.
Awareness, however, is not enough. Recent exposures of the influence of Stonewall and of Trans activism at the Tavistock have not brought their influence to a halt.
A movement is needed to channel public anger and provide a genuine realistic alternative. Without a strong fight-back movement to get behind people will feel they just have to settle for whatever the political class decides is good for them.
That battle has been taking place across the globe – and it’s been us who have been driving it with a great deal of the foul and very little of the fair. We (& by that I mean the UK) have spread Islamist extremism across the globe – by directly supporting & arming them in Afghanistan in the 1980s, Kosovo in the 1990s and Libya and Syria in the 2010s to name but a few. Likewise the US & Israel have been upto their disgusting necks in this too. You can’t funnel billions of dollars into supporting jihadis (the US Diplomatic cable leaks of the 00s have abundant evidence of this) and then pretend this is all a cultural thing.
I was trying to upvote this comment but it wouldnt accept my vote
Faith is the hope of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
So true! Look at Partygate pix. The Tory politicians attended leaving dos and left, or walked into meetings to work where there was a cake. The people who partied danced and rolled in the booze were all young civil servants, the vast majority of whom would be pro Labour ‘Greys’, fully progressive in outlook, just doing a stressful job at the HQ of a national crisis…and forgetting the absurd obscene Rules they collectively had manufactured. There was no Tory Party in the Cummings and BBC manufactured Partygate. It was the Civil Service who partied.
Which is why war has defined humanity since its inception.
That is what we are up against. Christianity and prayer has been kicked out of our schools being replaced by transgender and gay teaching. Many teachers opposing this were sacked so the battle appears to have been practically been lost in our schools. All we can handle is ourselves trying to do the right thing. If we do that there is a chance of stopping the rot but not a certainty.
Religion shouldn’t be in schools.
There are some foundational flaws at the heart of Enlightenment thinking. One (particularly French) strand is that individuals and societies are ‘blank slates’, which can be re-moulded from first principles: another that ‘the long arc of history tends to truth and justice’ – or something similar. There is no reason this latter should be so, beyond wishful thinking, just because it has been the general trend since, say, 1945. Modern progressivism (or Wokeism) is actually a bitter fruit of Enlightenment thought; philosophers like J S Mill aren’t to blame for this, they were just philosophising about liberal ideas in stable and conservative (by today’s standard) societies. But it is Enlightenment ideas that have brought us to where we are.
If you want to know more about the groups organizing the protest this weekend, there is a must-read article in the Telegraph. Half the groups have direct links to Hamas.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/06/former-hamas-chief-behind-pro-palestine-armistice-day-march/
If I want to know more about anything, I wouldn’t be consulting The Telegraph.
I spent a month reading the Telegraph every day, sometimes through gritted teeth. It’s really not an objective, or even a truthful newspaper.
Example, please. We don’t know if you are objective or even truthful.
I can’t give you verbatim examples but this is what I think I have found. Some Telegraph writers are well worth reading but they tend to write about niche subjects. Others say things that are true but then twist these statements out of context in ways that are dishonest, others are cynical. I remember one hysterical headline which shrieked ‘These eco fanatics will be the death of civilisation.’ That’s unconscious self-parody.
Allister Heath, 23 August, The lunacy of climate change fanatics is driving humanity to extinction, perhaps?
Sounds right. That’s a worse headline than I remembered.
The headline reads like it’s an opinion piece. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If they are dressing it up as actual news, it would be different.
How would that work though? Will we become so irritated by people gluing themselves to stuff that we refuse to procreate? It’s a really silly headline
Subheading: Plunging fertility rates are the crisis of the century, yet extremists cheer it in their narrow-minded crusade. It is an opinion piece.
How far would rates have to fall before we become extinct?
These Telegraph writers you talk about are the norm for journalists these days. They abound in most, if not all so-called ‘newspapers’.
The problem is that both sides believe everything they read in their favorite propaganda is factual information. If the NYT wrote that gravity no longer existed, many of their loyal readers would start jumping off roofs.
You have to be a member to read it.
Do an internet search. You should be able to read it for free.
Thanks Jim, as most sensible people know, the planned march on Armistice Day is not a ‘protest’ march; it’s a malevolently planned incitement for violence against Jews parade, pure and simple. The significance of the day will cause maximum hurt to already traumatised Jewish people who are experiencing the worst antisemitic atrocity since the Holocaust. That’s why it must be banned. It’s got nothing to do with free speech.
You must have read Allison Pearson’s excellent piece in the Telegraph (22 October, the paywall has been removed from this important article) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/22/british-friends-of-israel-anti-semitism/
Allison will be standing by Churchill’s statue in Parliament Square on Saturday, standing in support of our Jewish community, who no longer feel safe in their own country.
I’ve signed The October Declaration at britishfriendsofisrael.org … it’s the least I can do.
Deportation of citizens? No. Deportation of legal or illegal non-citizen immigrants? Absolutely. And the latter in all cases.
What if it comes to them or us in Britain as it could do eventually?
“Protesters who take to the streets to celebrate murder fall into this category because they are self-discrediting. They are impervious to reason, but their sentiments are so essentially rebarbative that there is no risk of public opinion shifting in their favour.” This truly is wishful thinking in the face of repeated experience. The Nazis won elections, Hamas won elections, ZANU-PF win elections, Sinn Fein win elections. In each case their celebration of violence and murderers created a frisson of glamour and impression of strength which were central to their appeal. The author makes some well intentioned points, although if was Jewish Londoner he might feel “a commitment to free speech and liberal ideals” rather less comforting if in practice this meant a curtailment of his rights to free movement and free expression. A society has an obligation to defend itself. Allowing its streets to be taken over by Nazi and Communist paramilitaries was not a sign of Weimar Germany’s resolute commitment to liberal values. If they are to survive liberal values need to be actively defended when attacked – cowering in the corner while being denounced and undermined is not evidence of a commitment to free speech.
No. Supporters of terrorism must be deported. Chanting “rape their mothers, rape their daughters” through bullhorns on city streets is not free speech, it is calling for bloodshed. How is it that “silence is violence” on the one hand, while openly yelling “gas the Jews” is a protected right? This cultural ugliness has been excused for far too long. Societies make their own laws of acceptable conduct. Nothing about this is acceptable and civilized nations should stop putting up with it.
Those who support Palestine should start with protests against Hamas rather than against Israel.
They should of course do both.
Hamas are beyond the pale, but so are some of the ministers of the Israeli government, who Netanyahu relies on to remain in power. As always; it’s about competing and irreconcilable claims on the land (and water). It’s not just the militant Palestinians who want all the land from the river to the sea, many right wing Israelis want this too and would like to expel the residents of the West Bank. That’s why the situation is unsolvable unless all people living in Israel and Palestine becomes citizens of one state, which one suspects neither side will never agree.
Deeply pessimistic.
A classic “turf war”, with an ethno-religious subplot. A bit like the situation re. the Irish Republic and N. Ireland.
Would you like to live next door to a family that lives only to work towards your extermination?
You mean the Netanyahu’s?
Exactly. The settlers are taking advantage of the war to push even further into Palestine, literally forcing families from their homes. I saw video of this and even though I am, of course, against Hamas I found the images heartbreaking. These land grabs are inexcusable and cruel and are what provokes protesters.
Pro-Palestine is just a facade for Anti-Israel. Pro-Palestine does not mean a peaceful two-state solution. It means Palestine from the river to the sea. Listen to the chants of the demonstrators.
That’s the protesters not necessarily what the Palestinian people want.
Exactly!!
Most people, outside of a tiny bubble of bien pensants and the unthinking softies who just avoid trouble, needed no proof of the failure of multiculturalism. In fact, they need convincing of any successes.
Why would anyone think that ‘multiculturalism’ made any sense in the first place? It’s pathetic, in the Orwellian ‘unity in diversity’ or ‘peace through war’ mould. A single state needs to have a mainstream set of values, traditions and possibly distinctive ethnic group. The world has always been multi-cultural, which is one major reason the world has always had wars.
Two points: First, the principle of free speech can only be upheld if our other key principles are upheld as well, most notably the rule of law. Allowing tens of thousands of people to break the law with impunity by entering the country illegally is not upholding the rule of law. On the contrary, it is undermining it. To continue to insist on free speech may be worthy, but it is also dangerous, as we are now seeing with the (seditious) calls for Jihad.
The second point is that freedom of speech is already contingent on other factors. As another commentator has pointed out, no one has the right to shout “Fire!” in a crowded theatre. So safety can be invoked to restrict it. But so can the potential harm to other members of the public. If a pro-life demonstration in the vicinity of an abortion clinic can be outlawed on grounds of the emotional distress it would cause to patients, then surely a disrespectful and divisive mass gathering in London on the day we set aside for remembering our war dead can also be outlawed?
Some are being charged just for thinking near an abortion clinic. It was perceived that they must have been praying. So freedom to think appears to be under attack as well.
That’s absurd.
Hardly the same thing.
It has always been widely acknowledged that you don’t have the “Freedom of Speech” to shout “Fire!” in a crowded theatre.
We are in an extremely volatile situation right now and it should be obvious that a demonstration that will doubtless be calling for extermination of the Jews in Israel, deliberately chosen to take place on Remembrance Day, falls into that category.
Anybody disagreeing with the above should re-evaluate their support for “Freedom of Speech” when someone says something considered unacceptable in polite society, such as supporting Enoch Powell.
“…a demonstration that will doubtless be calling for extermination of the Jews in Israel, deliberately chosen to take place on Remembrance Day, falls into that category.”
You have proof that marchers will be calling for the extermination of Jews in Israel? I will expect the police to be making thousands of arrests then. You are being provocative and ignorant, especially as the march will be held on Saturday 11th November, and Remembrance Sunday is the following day.
I doubt the police have the capacity to make thousands of arrests.
Kettling thousands of people in the West End is something they know how to do
They have repeatedly called for the extermination of Israel and are not exacctly friendly with the Jewish people in our land.
From river to sea and Khaybar are chants calling for the killing of Jewish men and enslavement of women.
Well we were warned by EP weren’t we? I remember him saying they are not like us. Perhaps an understatement. The west rose on certain godly principles and they will fall on rejecting those principles.
I don’t see that a serious committment to free speech requires us to accept a right for anybody to express their views anytime, anywhere, and without regard to the rights of others who do not wish to be distracted from acts of respect for our war dead. It is hardly North Korean-style tyranny to rule that there should be no marches in the vicinity of the Cenotaph for a few hours between Saturday morning and Sunday afternoon.
Lets hope we learn something from these free speech discusions. One thing that comes out is that if the speech incites violence against others it should not be allowed to be expressed. Jihad is always against those who do not comply to that religion.
This is the heart of the problem:
But I’m not sure “reckless” is the right word. 21st century British immigration policy has been so obviously detrimental to British society, it’s hard to chalk it up to simple incompetence.
Agreed. As is granting Iran a nuclear bomb and returning and giving over $100 BILLION to Tehran over the last decade or so. The more apt word might be “suicide”.
It’s not simple incompetence, and Tony Blair, who bears a great deal of responsibility for the current situation, admitted as much, as I recall.
What a load of hogwash! Liberalism can only be practiced in an isolated population. That population must be protected by clear boundaries if that liberalism is to survive and thrive. Those boundaries are there to prevent illiberal values, ideas and practices from polluting the liberal population. Open bordered societies can never be fully liberal. This is how the physics of entropy works.
It all reminds me of Dr Joseph Goebbels:
A good piece but the conclusion seems somewhat at odds with the argument. Some kind of public expression of repugnance at what is being said on these demos would be welcomed. As I understand it’s within the law for the Police or Home Secretary to ban a march. It’s not within their power to ensure a conviction for incitement to violence. But a liberal society should be able to push back against illiberal elements. Hence, any weekend but this one.
Exactly.
Sometimes people have to be told “no” so that they are reminded where decent values reside.
I may be stating the obvious, but the right to free speech, and the right to hold marches and processions are not necessarily the same thing.
Absolutely not. Liberalism only ever worked within the carapace of virtue sustained by traditional society and shared traditional values. Without that minimum level of mutual identification, structures of taboo and a sense of the sacred, there can be no liberal society of individuals at all. In itself the latter is utterly sulphuric and eats through everything. To save anything of liberal society now requires a zero sum politics and intolerance on a very large scale – simply in order to re-establish boundaries, to re-generate that minimal level of mutual identification and to nurture shared values- as well as taboos, taken for granted behavioural constraints….. In practice that means hymns in school + the national anthem, conscription, life-long local and national service, an overt rejection of the values of Islam, a conservative war on progressive woke ideology in all its manifestations, and a moratorium on all immigration until such time as society is cohesive enough to be able to integrate new comers again. In short we need to fight a cultural civil war. Andrew you are totally wrong on this one
Benedict Anderson said a nation was an imagined community. No imagined community, no nation. I’ve recently found out that (i) a nephew didn’t know that Alfred burnt the cakes and (ii) a niece didn’t know it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle that it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Something’s changed while I was looking the other way, that’s for sure. Larkin ‘thought it would last my time’ and I hoped so too – although ‘for the first time I feel somehow / That it isn’t going to last’.
Excellent article laying out one of the core issues of our time. I disagree with Doyle in his conclusion. His hope that the chants of the protesters are so disagreeable that the rest of the population will scoff, falls down when you consider the demographics. The protesters are not a representative sample of the country, but heavily skewed towards the Muslim tendency which can’t get to grips with Liberalism. They just have to propagate themselves at a greater rate that the ones who scoff. Give it a few decades or so and Woolovers will be selling nothing but burkas. To Doyle I say, is this a price worth paying to maintain your principles? Red pill time.
While I do see why Andrew Doyle writes this, it is time to realise that this is the biggest ” appeasement” the West is engaging, for a very long time.
Islamic extremism in the guise of ” protest” misuses the liberal eco- system of democracies all over.
I predict in extreme cynicism that soon these rabid protestors will form an Islamist party. They will fuse socialistic agendas to attract the Woke generation. Then they will take over electorally, first through opportunistic alliances and coalitions, then by holding other political parties to ransom and finally raising secession slogans.
I hope I don’t live long enough to see this..but while many of us spout liberal constitutional ideals, the violence inherent in a creed will wipe off all ” unbelievers” with ruthless precision.
The points that Andrew Doyle makes are precisely those that persuaded John Simon, the then Home Secretary to allow the provocative march by Sir Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists through the East End 87 years ago. In the event the much larger counter demonstrations by Jewish, ILP and Communist organisations which took violent exception to the police attempting to protect the marchers from attacks resulted in the police eventually persuading Sir Oswald to redirect his march westwards. The commitment to the right to peaceful, albeit provocative and objectionable, demonstration was trumped by the larger more violent counter demonstration.
If people seriously want to prevent the this provocative and objectionable pro Hamas demonstration then they will come out and mount a counter demonstration. However, as the shock-troops of the violent left are ranged in favour of Hamas and Gaza and the Jews of Britain are now outnumbered by the Muslim population there is unlikely to be any such counter demonstrations to halt the march.
The extent to which free speech and the disruption that marches bring tends to be governed by the extent to which the marchers are prepared to enforce their will and the extent to which their message meets opposition. In contrast to the pro-Gaza demonstrations those in favour of Israel have often faced and accepted official discouragement on the grounds of safety just as Oswald Mosley was officially persuaded to reroute his march in the face of the violent counter demonstrations.Despite our official commitment to free speech and the right to demonstrate in practice might often proves right. Authoritarianism in defence of liberty is a difficult act to pull off.
Thank you for puncturing that great socialist myth about the so called Battle of Cable St.
Illegal ACTIONS should be appropriately investigated and punished. People should be free to say anything they like short of directly inciting illegal action. Hate speech laws are a bad idea and should all be repealed.
Saying God loves people is hate speech to some.
It’s more of a silly speech.
Free speech should be allowed but a well recognised limitation is incitement to violence. Surely mass protests calling for genocide of the Jews meet that limitation.
This is very tricky. I’d like to see these marches restricted (admittedly, I’m Jewish, and it’s very worrying watching people call for my elimination), but really can’t see how our police could cope if the marchers were criminalised. Putting it bluntly – there are a lot more of the demonstrators than there are of the police. Yes, I’d agree with the commentators who’ve argued that it was unwise to import millions of people who hate liberal democracy – but that’s done now, and as for ‘sending them back where they came from’, that’s simply nonsense. We can’t even deport criminals without years of appeals. I don’t have an answer.
Bring police in from other cities. Mobilize the Army, Marines, and the Territorials. Surround the Cenotaph, Whitehall, and all the critical locations with troops with fixed bayonets. That frees the police to arrest demonstrators.
All true Sue. But the moment you – like the weedy ‘We are Not Racist!!’ Met commanders – say..well there are a lot more of them than us, go ahead – you have given a licence to Mob Rule. Surrender to the Mob. And those London streets will ultimately not see so many Jews. These marchers know it. They are delighting in all our pathetic liberal handwringing and the constant self defeating appeasement of our failing multicultural state.
Immigration is higher now than ever. Not only are we not sending anyone back, we can’t even halt the rate of increase.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
There is a *right* to silently commemorate the war dead of *this* country by the native, indigenous people of *this* country.
We do not want that disrupted by these drooling morons blaring out genocidal slogans which would have been perfectly fitting in the Germany that we defeated in the 1940s.
In the modern world noisy morons ‘rights’ often drown out the quiet contemplative reflections of wiser folk.
I hope that is about to change.
Are they UK citizens who are holding and waving a Palestinian flag? If not, then they should be deported.
This is a very good article but omits to mention one crucial element. Freedom, or liberalisation, is underpinned by personal and collective responsibility and without that one person’s freedom becomes another’s prison. The pro-Palestinian and anti-Semitic protestors are restricting the rights of the Jews or any who sympathise with them to do the same i.e. to protest.
“Governments enact “emergency powers” when at war because short-term authoritarianism seems preferable to the alternative.”
These powers were enacted during the “war” on Covid and enforced with horrendous and far-reaching consequences. They can surely be enacted again for one week-end out of respect for the sacrifices made by our forbears and currently too, for the very freedom that these protestors are so heinously exploiting.
Disagree. Shouting anti Jewish slogans after October 7 in the streets of London is quite intolerable. Passports revoked. We do not want people like this in the UK.
This is an attempt by Islamic fanatics to begin the domination of the public space in the UK. British cities are fast becoming Muslim cities. Now they’re beginning to flex their muscles. Next we’ll be making Eid a public holiday like Christmas. It’s coming!
Agreed.
The author rightly (in my view) disagrees with this sort of gut reaction:
“Hate speech laws must now be strengthened, certain protests ought to be banned, and we must no longer tolerate the intolerant.”
Hate speech laws are part of the problem here – not any solution. That’s what many of these protestors want – free speech for some only.
It’s probably wisest to allow the protest and prosecute all offences. The protests – like Just Stop Oil – are far more likely to damage the protestors cause than recruit further support.
We might think about modifying the law so that protests cannot be held where existing events are being held (and policed). Not ban the protest, but make it subject to exclusion zones. A legitimate protest should not be trying to disrupt another protest or event. It’s perhaps surprising that there isn’t a distinction between positive (constructive) and negative (intentionally confrontational/destructive) protests.
There is no need for a pro-Palestinian protest to have any interaction with Remembrance Day and the attempt to infer some sort of link is specious.
Perhaps we also need to have more legal responsibility put on the organisers of protests.
I see that the law on protests seems to be defined by human rights and the EHCR. We might need to look at this as it may not balance the responsibilities of protestors with rights as we would wish.
Just stop oil, 5 demonstraters. Pro Palestine, 100 000 at a time.
I’m so tired of this debate.
We can intellectualise all we like about liberalism and tolerance but it does no good.
We have a portion of the population (and it is clearly very much larger than we want to admit) who do not wish us well.
Does anyone think this is just about Palestine/Israel?!
Really?!
This portion seems rather keen to behead, gang rape, explode bombs, perform knife attacks and cause unrest.
And we need the month of November to highlight our ‘phobia’ towards this faith?! Is this some kind of dark comedy? Because if it is I’m not laughing.
I find it odd, that one the hand we have Jews, Hindus and many other faiths peacefully going about their business and yet just one that seeks to intimidate.
It is time for us all to say enough. If you can’t and will not exist alongside us all in a civilised manner be gone.
“Even those who have previously decried “cancel culture” appear to be relishing its impact on their opponents.”
I am one of those. I would very much like to see the woke skum losing their jobs and housing and being debanked. This treatment is entirely appropriate for racist misogynist antisemites pimping for sadistic paedophilia.
“Liberal countries acknowledge their moral responsibility to offer asylum for those in need, and typically take a compassionate view towards foreigners seeking a more prosperous life. At the same time, there must be a degree of societal consensus for the ethos of these nations to survive at all. For where such a consensus is jeopardised, either through mass immigration or radical domestic political movements, the temptation to dispense with liberal values is inevitable. But to call for the deportation of citizens who actively seek the demolition of our culture is to surrender our principles to the very people who oppose them. It is to resign oneself to authoritarianism in a perverse effort to defeat it.”
I disagree completely. It is not wrong to recognise that the flower of liberal tolerance requires a certain degree of protection from the elements, in fact in the next paragraph the article goes on to argue – correctly – that liberalism is an exclusively Western triumph, which tacitly admits that liberalism possesses at least geographical boundaries by default.
This paragraph I’ve quoted makes the same mistake that naive critiques of Libertarianism usually make: the idea that without laws of any kind, we’d end up in a society where it would be legal to sell heroin to children (comically ignoring the fact that this already happens in our non-libertarian systems). The fallacy is that libertarianism equates to anarchy, when in fact it is merely a minimalist form of liberalism that recognises that liberty cannot exist without the protection of law (much less law than we have to put up with now, true, but still the minimal set of rights and protections must exist).
The same realisation must apply in this context: we do not surrender our rights to liberty by collectively agreeing under what conditions others may lose entitlement to their own liberty and rights, and it is not a logical conundrum to propose that people who refuse to respect the liberty of others must face in turn the law’s decision to refuse their own. It is political cowardice that is the obstacle here, not some conceptual difficulty of principle.
In the not too distant past the Met used to kettle protesters. Now they put the kettle on and make them a cup of tea.
I made a similar observation re. kettling and got a downtick. Probably punishment for other posts.
Marches, in connection with Jews or Palestinians, next weekend in London should be banned. Sadly their culture is so out of kilter with ours that they don’t understand why they should have avoided protesting next weekend. Therefore they will have to be banned. They have scored an own-goal against themselves but that’s unsurprising because they come from a backward-looking society/religion which has no place in the modern world.
ANDREW DOYLE’S BLIND SPOT: THE JEWS. Pretty words, Andrew Doyle, but how about your own double standards on the dividing line between free speech and censorship. On Free Speech nation in 2021 your panel discussed the case of a football fan’s anti-Black racist abuse, for which he was convicted, while avoiding quoting the offensive words. In the same discussion you mentioned a comedian who trained a dog to do a Hitler salute in response to the command “Gas the Jews.” In the case of the anti-black racism you self-censored and avoided mentioning the words. In the case of anti-Jewish racism you exercised freedom of speech and had no compunction about bringing the words “Gas the Jews” out into the open, despite the horror those words re-kindle for Jews. What was the difference?
One act was defended by you and the panel as a joke, the other so offensive it could not even be mentioned. In other words, the shared sentiment of the panel seemed to be that it is OK to make racist jokes against Jews, but not OK to even mention the abusive words directed at black people. Supposing the racist soccer fan had said “Gas the blacks,” and presented it as a joke would you be OK with that? I wouldn’t. As David Baddiel might note, this is a classic example of the central premise of his book Jews Don’t Count. Antisemitism is a joke, yet anti-black hate speech is racism. Sad that you seemed to promulgate the increasingly mainstream view that anti-semitism is somehow a lesser form of racism. Now we know where that leads (as a Jew, I’m now too scared to travel in London). Andrew, perhaps you should check your blind spot and why you censor some hate speech but gleefully defend words that are no different from those bringing terror to Jews on the streets of England.
How do people know you’re a jew? Black folk can’t hide, they’re an easy target but I find it hard to believe that you’re too scared to travel in London. Well, you may be too scared but that doesn’t mean your fears are legitimate.
A, you don’t know what I look like. B, you question whether I’m too scared to travel, as if what I’m saying is in bad faith. C, you gas-light by doubting whether my fears are legitimate. D, if I travelled on a tube carriage where there was a chorus of “There is only solution – Intifada revolution” and didn’t join in, what do you think would happen to me? E, my few Jewish relatives in London are now hiding any outward signs of their faith. For those reason I find what you wrote pretty sickening.
As an atheist I fail to understand why you need to advertise your “faith” anymore than how some Christians feel the need to therir advertise”faith” with a cross round their neck.
Jews don’t have to look like Woody Allen or Barbara Streisand to be recognised as Jews. I have Jewish friends and colleagues who are scared to travel in London. They are clearly Jewish because they wear a skull-cap. Then again Muslim women too report being scared to wear a hijab or other Islamic garb (and receive insults and occasionally worse). The Hassidic community are instantly recognisable; difficult to hide that.
Yes of course Hasidic Jews are recognizable in those silly outfits, and if you wear a skull cap in public you’re vulnerable, but knowing the risk why wear it in public? I have no respect for women wearing a hijab, either. As an atheist I find people advertising their religion, whatever it is, rather annoying.
They’re not “advertising their religion”, just adhering to its strictures. As long as people obey laws regarding decency, why should you care what they wear? Do you regards nuns or cross-wearers with the same contempt?
Yes. I’m an equal opportunity contempt giver.
X
Hi Clare, I wonder if you’ve read un Herd article “Jews are not safe on Britain’s campuses” by Etan Smallman and still dismiss and gaslight my fears. Would appreciate a reply?
Andrew Doyle puts correct views in clear and convincing prose, and his characterisation of liberalism as upholding the importance of an uncommitted, empty space between individuals in which differing assertions are expressible, irrespective of offence taken, is well said. It is very precious, and it is a theory. And then there comes a time when one has not an interlocutor before one but a winner-takes-all adversary. Knowing how to find the mean between liberal theory and ideological authoritarianism might be important for us, right now. Maybe it is time to impose all those hate speech laws to the best ends they will ever have been put to yet. Maybe champions of killing Jews need to experience more pushback from us than rhetoric and reasoned analysis of proper human ends.
Herbert Marcuse, the Frankfurt School Marxist in his Repressive Tolerance calls for censorship of non left wing thought in the mid 1960s and it soon spread though universities.
Of course these chaps can protest and march, but I do expect the Crown Prosecution Service (London, South.) and in particular one CLAIRE MARIE WALSH*to be paying very close attention.
I mention this particular woman because she appears to have been the instigator of the prosecution and conviction last week of one Colonel (bonking) Bob Stewart, DSO, MP, for a “racially aggravated Public Order offence**.
“What’s good for the goose is good for the gander” as we used to say.
(* Does the etymology of this name denote ‘tinker’ origin would some Irish person kindly advise?)
(** Section 5 of the 1986 Public Order Act, astonishingly a piece of Thatcherite legislation.)
The name means Welsh, ie foreign (no I’m not Irish; my surname denotes “apple farm” in old Norse).
Given the philological theme, there was an interesting piece in Private Eye this week contrasting the police’s flexibility in interpreting the word “jihad” to mean struggle (i.e. not a word that calls for a holy war), and their enthusiasm for door-knocking people who’d politely posted online their objections to trans-gender ideology.
Thank you, thus rather like Wallace (much to annoyance of “Jock Nostra”.)
I gather in Stewart’s case the Police did NOT feel there were sufficient grounds for a prosecution, but Ms Walsh thought/ dictated otherwise!
Juvenal had something to say about this as I recall.
KPIs rule ok!!
The conviction and fine appears to have been the result of this fairly innocuous exchange:
Alwadaei challenged Stewart about a visit paid for by the Bahraini government, asking him, “Did you sell yourself to the Bahraini regime?” In response, Stewart said that Bahrain was “a great place”, adding “Go back to Bahrain” and “You’re taking money off my country, go away.”
If a Bahraini in the UK makes an insulting suggestion that someone is merely holding a view because they are paid to do so then they might expect some sharp retort pointing out that they were receiving money from the UK and suggesting they ought to return to Bahrain.
It is not a very elevated or admirable dialogue but the idea that one of the participants should receive a criminal sentence and a £600 fine is absurd and itself an attack on the principle of free speech far more damaging than any restriction on the promotion of jehad might be.
Precisely, and that is why this matter deserves FAR greater public scrutiny, starting with the CPS ( London South.)
Indeed, Bob Stewart has been unwarrantedly attacked for being a racist by Labour and LibDim politicians when it is apparent from his reference to Bahrain being a great place that his objection was to Alwadaei personally and not his race or nationality. A disgraceful prosecution and conviction.
Its amazing that this ended up in the police court at all, and that this seems to be regarded as perfectly normal.
For a much better analysis and perspective, listen to Douglas Murray on Triggernomitry. Brilliant.
We have not had a ight to free speech for a long time.
We have laws that are applied unequally to favour some groups at the expense of other, the others generally being white and conservative.
Thus you can call in public for the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews but you will get your collar felt quicker than you can say this used to be a free country if you:
Silently pray near an abortion clinic.
Misgender” someone in public.
Misgender someone online.
Call someone a “lesbian”.
Burn a Quran.
Make nasty jokes in a private group chat
Call Islam an “aberration”
Publicly deny that gay marriage is biblical.
Reimagine the new LGBT flag as a swastika.
Protesting against the murder of women.
Carrying rape alarms in a public place.
Posting a racist tweet about football players.
(list curtesy of The Critic)
The truth is that free speech can only exist is a racially and religiously homogenous society
What a load of rubbish.
How is it rubbish when it is true, or is that the limit of your intellectual contribution
It’s not true.
This is a link to the article in the Critic where people have been arrested for the “crimes” I listed. Just because you don’t want it to be true does not make it untrue
I found myself in such total agreement with this article that I have nothing to add and at a loss for words – which is not usually one of my problems.
A better thing would be to very quietly counter-protest. Stand between the anti-Israel crowd and those mourning and memorialising their honored dead. No signs, no chants, just paper poppies. If enough of you did, you might steal the attention and stifle the hurt of the pro-Hamas crowd.
I think most Brits would like to see that on the eveing news.
You folks across the pond needn’t worry about the US deporting Palestine supporters. Most of them are American citizens (stupid, young, and inexperienced ones at that) and no court, even in the most flag-waving patriotic town would approve such a measure. It would be blatantly unconstitutional. They could theoretically deport non-citizen residents, but they’re likely already doing some of that since Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization. Tom Cotton represents one of the most rural states in America. His seat is among the safest in the entire Senate. So, in order to further his personal career, he regularly says controversial things on purpose to get his name in the news, and as you can see, he’s fairly successful at it. In other words, this is theater. There is zero danger of America turning against Israel. You folks in Europe with large immigrant Muslim populations have a much harder tightrope to walk.
I think the overall lesson is that some cultures are compatible with liberalism and some are not. In America, I have little doubt that in a couple of generations, most of the immigrants from South and Central America will be mostly assimilated, interbred with the white population, and pretty much indistinguishable from the rest. There are already plenty of Americans with names like Gonzalez or Rodriguez that are whiter than me. Point is their culture is both identifiably western and Christian. Muslim and African culture, on the other hand, is less compatible with liberalism or the existing cultures of Europe. I don’t believe it’s a problem with an easy solution. The native populations of Europe have been in decline for some time, and that creates an economic incentive for immigration. Economic forces are difficult to oppose. Increased automation is basically the only solution I see as viable. Replacing workers with robots and automation reduces the need for unskilled labor and gives cultures an alternative to importing workers from places that don’t mesh well with local culture. Japan, a nation with a declining population, but also traditionally insular and not at all immigrant friendly is at the forefront of robotics technology for a reason.
The biggest mistake people seem to be making on this issue is that everyone who raises any criticism to the actions of Israel or the West in this situation is somehow a jihadist in disguise.
This is the kind of hubris that brings down civilizations.
The narrative of “Israel good, Arab bad” has been pushed to its breaking point. The newer generation, from all backgrounds, no longer falls for it. There is information everywhere now. Not just through the official sources.
You should consider that maybe, just maybe, people are beginning to think for themselves.
And let me enter a caveat though I would think it should not be necessary on a forum supposedly of free thinkers – I do not (nor think most people protesing do) support Hamas or their actions. Hamas is the worst kind of terrorist organisation. The world would be a better place if every single one of them was hunted down and killed. And I completely understand the danger of Wahabi extremism and ideology. I am a Nigerian and I have seen with my own eyes and have lived the experience. This is not just a story in a newspaper to me.
However, Hamas did not appear with a poof from the vacuum. They evolved out of a particular set of circumstances. A set of circumstances nobody in the West wants to take even the slightest responsibility for. Just like ISIS.
Well said!
The Islamic conquest of Britain continues unopposed.
“Protesters who take to the streets to celebrate murder fall into this category because they are self-discrediting. They are impervious to reason, but their sentiments are so essentially rebarbative that there is no risk of public opinion shifting in their favour.
—–
What is shocking about this article is the complete inability to learning of the author.
The day before yesterday you let them in out of compassion. They raped our daughters.
You said that we need to fight Islamophobia.
Yesterday a bus was blown up.
You said we need to fight Islamophobia and radicalization.
Today they celebrate the mass murder of Jews.
You say that everyone will see how bad they are and how few there are.
Tomorrow there will be a lot of them and your daughter will be punished with whips for wearing an indecent skirt.
I suppose you will say that the daughter should have dressed more modestly.
War has been declared on us, and you have already surrendered, ready to convince us that sh.t smells like roses.
As bad as the whole thing might turn out on Armistice Day, maybe it will be a good thing for Britain, because it could show just how morally rotten and spiteful the left really is, that for all their talk about kindness and fairness they are deeply resentful people who would rather let the world burn do to belief that they that they have not been given their due, and would rather make other people have unhappy to deal with their own misery. As well as show how cowardly and self-centered the liberal establishment is. For all their claims about being impartial and fair, they’re just cynical opportunists who are more interested in exploiting the system for their own benefit and don’t really stand for anything.
That ranting is so bigoted.
…I would be happy to support this position…if the author would agree to my proposal that we rapidly establish a para-military police unit…under the direct control of the Home Secretary…at Divisional strength (perhaps recruited from military veterans?)…
…akin to the CRS in France…available to police such events, keep order, carry out arrests where offences have been committed, and bring the event to an end if required…
…and, like the CRS only deployed in full riot armour, with shields, batons and firearms…backed by water cannon, baton rounds and tear gas…and with the current anti-terrorist police units redeployed to serve alongside them…providing overwatch with sniper teams.
However, in efffect…it is akin to the clamour for a cease-fire in Gaza…the intention there is to prevent the Israeli Government from protecting it’s people…and to help Hamas survive the consequences of their actions and commit further atrocities at their leisure…
…with the aim here being to continue to spread terror amongst British Jews, and try to frighten the rest of us into letting them do so…whilst the police stand by wringing their hands…or possibly taking sides with those celebrating and applauding attempted genocide on the streets of our cities…
The dark ‘protest’ elements given free rein by those ageing, jaded Socialist Worker organisers in Palestine demos are the sort who would support a re-emergence of Islamic State if not being directly recruited as militants. They are represented by both sexes just as we saw 10 years ago: the volunteer executioners and brides.
This is why free expression should be protected in the inherent right to have public protests, while anti-terror legislation should be applied diligently. If the police can’t find themselves able to do that, then the law will have to be twiddled to make sure our so-called agents of justice have the tools to apply it.
Liberalism as a civilisational suicide pact, pt. 94.
<i>But, some might respond, if liberalism is so delicate and continually under threat, why bother with it at all? In short: because it works. For all the claims by identitarian activists that the Western world is a racist hellhole, few living in the era of Jim Crow could have conceived of the advances we have made since then. The triumph of social liberalism is evident in multiple studies that show how Western societies are the most tolerant and diverse to have ever existed. It is no coincidence that all of the major civil rights movements — for black emancipation, feminism and gay rights — have traditionally been underpinned by a commitment to free speech and liberal ideals.</i>
“Being the most tolerant and diverse society” is only desirable under liberal principles. This argument is completely circular — you define a good society as a liberal society, and then “prove” that liberal societies are better because they’re more liberal.
We have Jihadi nihilists here. They would LOVE a ban, then show up in numbers too numerous for the police to cope. The police can’t arrest thousands of people. They – the pro Hamas, the Jihadis, the Naive Left – know this.
Asquith showed that he was no match for the Prussian Military Junkers in WW1. Most Liberals come from a comfortable affluent secure background and are incapable of defending it. Muggers like peaceful people as they do not fight. Muggers do not like people who are better at figthing than them. A Conservative is a Liberal who has been mugged. Limousine Liberals pay people to protect themselves.
Totallitarians do not like people who can beat them in a debate.
Why not have the pro Palestine march another day ?There is nothing special about the 10 and 11th of November for the pro Palestine supporters.
I agree that they should be allowed to protest. The government is often criticised for being out of touch with what people think. This sends a clear message to them and we need to know what they are going to do about these views held by a large group of people. However, the protests should be peaceful and I also believe that they should not be too disruptive so perhaps we need more clarity on what is acceptable.
“The past month has provided one long acid test for the West’s commitment to liberal values.”
How about the last 10 years?
It’s so funny when liberals pretend they’re brilliant for finally noticing something that’s been obvious to everyone not in an uber-educated, upper-middle-class bubble for a very long time.
Liberal tolerance need not (ought not) extend to those who would use it to advocate (or commit) mass murder and overturn liberalism itself. The Enlightenment is not a suicide pact.
While I can understand where Andrew’s argument is coming from, surely it is necessary for a liberal society to take action to protect its values if confronted by powerful authoritarian and illiberal forces? If it doesn’t, it risks being irrevocably changed.
Wasn’t this the reason Churchill chose to engage with the National Socialist German Workers Party in 1939?
No. The Islamic extremists don’t believe in free speech or freedom of religion. We need to flush them from our society before they destroy it.
I like the author take on all things woke but he is completely deluded in this case.
Democracy and liberalism can not survive if we allow enemies of freedom to use democratic institutions and norms to undermine and, eventually, overturn it.
You can not have reasoned discussions with medieval savages and that is what Muslims are.
They have no place in Europe.
You can not be proper Muslim and obey the rules of Western civilisation, as is obvious to anyone either knowing history of Europe or just observing everyday life.
There should be no freedom to enemies of freedom.
To succumb to a worldview in which Christianity (or any other faith) cannot or must never coexist with Islam is to to urge or hasten some god-awful “holy war” that does not have to occur. A chosen Armageddon.
There are peaceful and mystical versions of Muslim practice, just as there are bad-hearted and bloodthirsty excuses for Christian worship and practice.
While Islam currently has the most zealots and violence-ready practitioners of any major faith–by far–I don’t believe that is as intrinsic to the faith as it may seem. The Islamic World is in a phase similar to that of Europe in the 16th Century: factional, feverish, and megalomaniacal.
And doesn’t the idea of a Single World Faith easily shift from an aspirational vison into a hellish albatross right out of Revelations? Some plurality and ecumenicalism will have to prevail. We can oppose the zealots, barbarians, and brutes of all faiths–and of no professed faith at all–without allowing ourselves to imagine that any single creed can conclusively prevail in this world, or that our still-free States should return to some form of avowed chauvinistic theocracy. The way forward is not merely backward.
“Republican senator Tom Cotton has called for those who express support for Hamas to be deported”
Quite right, and this is not inconsistent with a strong support of free speech. Foreigners are in the US at our pleasure. The moment that we find them to be detrimental or harmful, it is entirely proper to send them home.
The Supreme Court has concluded that deporting a foreign national is not a “punishment” and there is no conflict between acknowledging their right to be Jew-haters, and deciding that they must do so elsewhere.
The right to protest does not permit active disrespect of others religious and similar important ceremonies.
If I went and protested about aspects of Islam outside a mosque I would be arrested.
The protest can be held on a day other than the 11th .
If they shout and yell at 11 am on 11th – what should happen.
There’s only one peaceful way to counter the cultural destruction the west has allowed and that is to shun it. In all its forms and in all ways. Total rejection, commercially. Don’t participate, engage, purchase, acknowledge. Walk away, walk out. Boycott. Disengage.
The latest headline is that 300,00 pro-Palestinian marchers have done what they wanted, but 92 counter-demonstrators have been arrested. So it’s all the fault of the white far-right, you see. They shouldn’t have counter-demonstrated at all.
How can we pretend that the authorities are even-handed in their treatment of left and right after this?
Mrs Braverman has been proven right, but it won’t save her career.
300,000 marched peacefully.
The fascists tried to attack them and the police did their job and arrested them. Hopefully they are in the cells right now and will remain there.
Braverman stoked the tension and will reap her rewards when she gets the sack in the week ahead.
300,00 march carrying menacing slogans and the police are afraid to touch them. Englishmen gather in a pub and the police detain them.
The press call the former ‘sympathisers’ and the latter ‘thugs’.
What sort of fascist defends Jews from the mob?
Yes, but as you say, direct incitement to violence should be met with government action and if the perp is not a citizen, then deportation.
The question remains for you, Mr. Doyle, what are those to do who are constantly subjected to harassment, threats and vilification by crowds in greater, dangerous numbers? How does one defend oneself in those situations when the state has admitted so many spewing hate and invective and indirect threats, when one is powerless to do anything and the state fails to assist.
Such a result can only lead to tribalism and anarchy.
What does the state do when it has already introduced into the fabric of society, in large numbers, those who are intolerant and threaten the very nature and values of the host society.
That is the ultimate question that Mr. Doyle should be answering.
To suppress intolerance is to hide truth
No doubt the same fools that defended Braverman will now defend the thugs who tried to attack the peaceful marchers and disrupt the Remembrance Day ceremonies.
Show yourselves, you hypocrites and cowards.
If you made it to the end of the article I applaud you. Learn how to write in English
“Even those who have previously decried “cancel culture” appear to be relishing its impact on their opponents.”
“Even those”? Almost all the anti-woke heroes who opposed leftist censorship, doxxing and firing, have gone full cancel-culture in defence of genocide.
Whilst I agree with the general thrust of this piece, one thing I think needs to be said – which is that claims of ‘mass-murder’ absolutely demands context and that our ‘commitment to enlightenment values’ demand as much.
Part of that context is a proper regard of the facts of the events of October 7th. In the weeks after the Hamas horrors (of which there were definitely plenty), there’s increasing evidence to suggest that not all the 1,300 dead Israelis were killed by them and many of the alleged atrocities have not (so far) been followed up with evidence. Where, for instance, are the names of the 40 beheaded infants that did so much to produce outrage in the days immediately following the attack. Is that not part of the context?
As of 23rd October, Haretz had identified around 660 of the Israeli dead – of whom almost half were soldiers and police officers. Every death a tragedy of course, but in the context of an occupier and occupied these were legitimate targets. Is that not part of the context?
Beyond that, when you have an Israeli military response on the day that involved directly shelling and strafing the buildings in which Hamas were holding their hostages, then what number can reasonably be determined as being killed by Hamas? How many of these deaths were due to the fog-of-war, how many to panic, how many to the Hannibal Directive (look it up)?
Had Thatcher’s response to the Iranian embassy siege been to immediately order a tank to drive down Princes Gate and put half a dozen shells through the foyer how do you think that event would be remembered now?
Then there’s the possibility that some of the slaughter wasn’t ‘Hamas’ it was opportunists out on a spree when it became clear that there were significant breaks in the walls of the enclosure they’d be confined to for the majority of their lives.
What we have on display from most of our political class – and it seems the entirety of the Unherd commentariate, is the acceptance of the maximalist claims of the Israelis as fact, that Hamas intended and planned for this slaughter and every single death was a deliberate act and from there all else follows.
Forgive me fore not immediately following suit – these are the players who gave us the USS Liberty, that called the Great March of Return walkers ‘human shields’ as they murdered them and who have just spilled the beans on having nuclear weapons.
Careful you’ll soon be condemned as a GAZA DENIER, and you know what that will mean!
I’m expecting to be -73 by teatime. I’m denying nothing other than the framing. The events of October 7th were horrific, war crimes did take place, but call me old fashioned, I think the context and facts are vital here. This was savage, but was it the clock-re-setting, ground-zero event that everyone around here is insisting? I’m not so sure.
FACTS are always VITAL.
Which is precisely why so many people HATE them.
9/11 was undoubtedly a ground-zero excuse/event to justify the unprovoked attack on Iraq. This Gaza business is very unfortunately beginning to look the same.
Oh my goodness I had no idea you were one of those.
Have you a better explanation ?
Didn’t the Bush Jnr creature say as much?
They attacked the wrong country that’s for sure but it wasn’t a conspiracy if that’s what you’re inferring.
George Bush Jnr is on record as saying that Saddam ‘Insane’ DID 9/11.
I was using that example to show how important it is to get to the true FACTS. Otherwise known as the Socratic method eg: Question and Answer.
It’s not old-fashioned to demand facts and look at context. Hopefully that will happen after the rage has subsided, but the cost will be many dead, on both sides.
I’m so sorry you didn’t get to see the bodies that were slaughtered. I realize it’s important that you have proof because you, apparently, think your opinion matters. It doesn’t matter regardless of your being 73.
https://news.sky.com/story/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas
It’s not clear *anybody* saw beheaded babies.
I’m disappointed in you for that comment, Charles.
Which one may I ask?
I don’t know I can’t remember what it was!
Not to worry!
Unfortunately, my downvote didn’t register. So you’ve come up with a new conspiracy theory all on your own! How original. No doubt it won’t take long for it to catch on like wildfire. Congratulations on your contribution to chaos.
The USS Liberty is a very interesting case. Let’s not forget Sabra and Shatila, Baruch Goldstein, Deir Yassin, the Ibrahim al-Maqadma mosque missile attack; need I go on? Everything has to be taken in context.
I find it fascinating that few cared when BLM activists were attacking police horses and defacing statues in Whitehall three years ago, yet the moment Israel is threatened most of the public turn into Carl Schmitt incarnate.
The BLM protestors didn’t agree to wipe off a certain section of the human race from the face of the earth. However, the pro-Hamas protestors do agree to wipe off all Jews from the face of the earth. It is Hamas’s stated ultimate goal!
Now have I made it easy for you to comprehend the difference?
‘The BLM protestors didn’t agree to wipe off a certain section of the human race from the face of the earth.”
I don’t think you understand the ideology at play. That is exactly what they believe.
I cared about the BLM marches. They happened during that period when everyone was supposed to be social distancing, and the response to any suggestion that they should be curtailed due to COVID was along the lines of “we’re scared that they will kick off if we banned the protest.”
I am not sure what to make of your comment. Naturally, two wrongs do not make a right, but I recall that many people cared back then, and many were outraged then. BLM’s actions were despicable, and I always condemned them and continue to do so. Not surprisingly they also jumped on the antisemitic bandwagon—a bandwagon that seems to consist to a great degree of supporters of the far Left whose intelligentsia are fascinated by Schmitt’s writings! This fascination reveals perhaps more about them than they intend; specifically, that the Left is fundamentally illiberal. Nonetheless, BLM supporters are not Hamas, and to equate the two diminishes the atrocities committed by Hamas.
“Most of the public” have you not seen all the anti-Israel protesters?
It’s ‘incitement to commit violence’ where the Law is clear, but as we know how one decides a particular statement or action is indeed that can be v difficult. For example the ‘from the river to the sea’ chant could be deemed the expression of a peaceful objective, even if v disagreeable to many of us, or a call to violence. How does one decide? Of course we’d each have an instinctive sense of the ‘intent’ but that’s not sufficient in Law. Thus one can have considerable sympathy for Mark Rowley and his officers navigating this. In meantime the Home Sec will continue to rabble-rouse and remain detached from actual responsibility for effective government.
Thus concur with the nuance and thoughtfulness of the Article, and especially the avoidance of temptation to over-simplify.
An uptick from me.
Such drivel. Hamas and their sick supporters want the whole of Israel to be Juden Rein.
It’s elementary Watson.
Yes that is what Hamas believe and state, but that’s not quite what is being discussed here and you’ve rushed yourself a bit there and missed the point.
Hamas promulgates violence to achieve it’s end. It’s a proscribed organisation and banned in the UK. People supporting it are thus essentially in danger of supporting violence and personally I’d have no problem with Police closing them down and arresting such like if demonstrating support for a violent strategy. But Hamas is not all the Palestinian people or the representative of anyone who might believe there is a better resolution to this conflict. One has to try and differentiate.
The article and my comment were about free speech, what it means and what the boundaries might be.
Well said. Don’t let the downvotes discourage you (and you don’t seem to).
We almost certainly have enough laws already to deal with problems here. We’re just not consistent enough (and perhaps not serious enough) in applying them.
So mealy mouthed. Do you deny the intimdation felt by many people and all Jews by these mass and regular protests? Would you support regular mass anti Hamas marches in Bradford and Leeds part organised by the EDL??
‘Support’ isn’t quite the phrase I’d use WM. Should such demos be banned in Law is the debate, and if a demo or chant is not inciting violence then we live in a free country and we protect free speech even if v disagreeable don’t we?. The problem is what is deemed ‘incitement’ and the ability to prove that beyond reasonable doubt.is not quite as straightforward. Emotional reaction not always the wisest judge.
However I also find unsurprising the inability to deal with nuance or what in fact the Author was conveying, but let’s try this one – Would you ban a march by anti-wokers, say about how one defines a Woman, because Trans felt intimidated? I suspect not.
I did not say ban the march. I said it should not happen anywhere near the Centotaph. Marches are no longer the real issue. I think ‘Nuance’ is a convenient way to turn a blind eye to the realities of ‘ liberal free speech’ and the appeasement of radical Islam under our Progressive Identitarian New Order. You know that a Pro Israel March in Bradford would be banned and would support it. You know that the anti trans/anti wokers would be banned even if they marched to defend an imprisoned JKR. It might be ‘too and horribly’ white. You know and see that there is intimidation in the events. You have seen the State Militia rip down Kidnap pictures and warn Jews to clear off the streets. You know it was utterly disgusting to march for Gaza when there are murdered Jewish bodies still inside burnt kibbutz homes. But still…still…you defend this one sided illberal status quo! Our State is still trembling and bowing the knee toward the Mob just as it did with the horse bashing BLM peace marchers. It has surrendered the streets to the Mob, just as it and our cultural elite turned a blind eye to the book burnings, the Grooming Gangs of the North and numerous acts of anti semitism. It is morally repugnant, cowardly and ultimately short sighted and self defeating. Liberal Letting intimdating Anti Us Muslim rage and hatred rip is not the way to protect or mend the fabric of communal unity. You say nuance! Appease! Tolerance! These are not words the Mob even recognises.
Thank you very much indeed. That was excellent.
A hard-hitting and accurate comment — every one of your words rings true.
Thank you for your thoughts and passion.
…we wouldn’t. The Metropolitan Police probably would…
There is absolutely no comparison.
There is no misunderstanding of from the river to the sea. It is well known that it means jews must be eradicated from the river to the sea. No-one is even denying this.
True, and this point cannot be overstated.
It’s not just ‘from the river to the sea’ that they’re chanting, is it?
They are also chanting for ‘jihad’.
They’re chanting ‘Khaybar, Khaybar ya Yahud, jaysh-i Muhammad sawf-a ya’ud’ (Khaybar, Khaybar O Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!).
They’re chanting ‘intifada from London to Gaza’.
These are collectively a call to violence. If you think otherwise your head is in the sand.
Seems the die is cast. It just struck me that there would be NOTHING on this thread if the March was a pro peace demonstration (not ceasefire) for the poor peoples Israel and Palestine, an explicitly anti war march with kidnap pix of Israelis, banners denouncing Hamas and their genocidal intent alongside banners denouncing Netanyahus policy on West Bank settlement etc…and flags of both sides. Imagine! Pangloss City of course. We can see that these Marches with their Council house gifted Hamas Organisers are totally different. Such a genuine Peace March would happen in Jerusalem. But to our shame it will never happen in the Multicultural UK State because of Muslim hatred of Jews and the demonic hatred of the so called Western Colonial State by these dumb dangerous Progressive Red Guards. Let them march then and display their wholly aggressive one sided beliefs for all to see. The noisy warmongers alongside the silence of our Armistice.