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How the Israel-Hamas culture war shames us The online debate is stigmatising and reductive

They've picked a side. (Jacek Boczarski/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)

They've picked a side. (Jacek Boczarski/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images)


October 27, 2023   7 mins

Alongside the terrible war that started on 7 October, a virulent war of words is now erupting across the globe. And it seems that in both cases, many participants are not observing ethical rules of engagement. This week, for instance, Israeli officials demanded the resignation of UN Secretary-General António Guterres after he said in a speech that the 7 October attack “did not happen in a vacuum”. The Israel ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, has responded by accusing Guterres of expressing “understanding for terrorism and murder” and “compassion for the most terrible atrocities committed against the citizens of Israel”. He has also described the Secretary-General as “blaming the victim” in a way that amounts to a “blood libel”.

UK politicians have since added their disapproval. Rishi Sunak said that “there’s one person responsible for what happened and that’s Hamas”. Oliver Dowden added: “there can be absolutely no blaming of anyone for this terrorist attack other than those terrorists in Gaza”. The only problem is that it is unclear who they are arguing with — for Guterres seems to agree with them. In the very same speech, he stressed that he “condemned unequivocally the horrifying and unprecedented 7 October acts of terror by Hamas in Israel”. He also said that “nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians”; and that “the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas”.

What does seem clear from the content of Guterres’ speech is that he believes that both Israel and Hamas are currently engaged in human rights violations; and that Israel has committed such violations in the past. These are negative moral evaluations to which Israel was bound to react strongly. But  — leaving aside whether Guterres is right or wrong about Israel’s actions — strictly speaking, his condemnations do not imply that Israel is morally responsible for Hamas’s acts of shocking brutality. To recognise that two sides are both at fault does not justify what either of them do to each other; and positing historical causes is not the same as distributing blame.

Perhaps it’s not surprising that the charitable interpretation of opponents’ words is one of the first things to go in a war. But still, the phenomenon is striking. And a similar dynamic is currently playing out all over the internet. Everywhere you look, hidden meanings are being assigned to others with absolute certainty — despite the fact that their actual word choices say nothing of the kind

If you describe the plight of Palestinians empathically, you are probably a terrorist supporter. If you express horror at images of Israeli and Jewish agony — but not of Palestinian pain in the very same breath — then you are clearly prepared to cheer on whatever is now happening to civilians in Gaza. If, instead, you attempt to say something empathic about devastating suffering on both sides, then that’s not good enough either — for now you are a milquetoast apologist for the war crimes of whichever side your hearers object to the most.

Banal facts about the practicalities of much public speech — for instance, that word counts are often unavoidably limited, or that a single expression of blame or sympathy can’t possibly represent the entirety of one’s thinking or feeling on a matter — tend to be ignored in the emotional rush to shove a speaker or author into one hostile camp or other. In the face of such a widespread lack of interpretative charity, you would be forgiven for concluding that the best policy would be to say nothing publicly about the conflict at all; there is little likelihood of making any positive difference, and a high chance that you will only add pointlessly to the noise. A wise plan, perhaps, were it not for the fact that, according to many, your silence now makes you a moral coward.

Of course, there are those who make their meaning perfectly clear. Take activist and former UK ambassador Craig Murray, who last week tweeted that, though he had always “viscerally opposed war”, “in the coming Gaza genocide, every act of armed resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah will have my support”. He went on: “what do you expect the Palestinians to do when the Israelis sweep in to kill tens of thousands and drive millions into the Sinai desert. Sing kumbaya to them?” Here Murray is not just drawing a causal link between past actions of Israel and current Hamas aggression, as a historian trying to understand the background political situation might do — and perhaps as Guterres was trying to do too. He is unambiguously alleging that the former morally justifies the latter, effectively signing a blank cheque for whatever savagery is carried out in the name of Palestine next.

Meanwhile, there are also plenty on the pro-Israel side prepared to declare in public that whatever Israel does in response is fully morally justified, with little apparent concern for the detail of what is occurring on the ground. But in between these two absolutist stances, there are lots of others responding to the conflict who are not saying or thinking either of these things, yet who are being interpreted by others as doing so.

Admittedly, some attributions of sinister meaning do seem apt. The Artists for Palestine UK letter, which was circulated last week, heavily focuses on Israeli infractions, while assiduously avoiding specific mention of the horrific murders, rapes, and kidnapping of Israeli civilians. As such, it appeared to be a prime example of what philosopher of language Paul Grice called “conversational implicature”: that is, intentionally implying some meaning not literally present in one’s choice of words (namely, that Israel is the only morally relevant aggressor). In this case though, unlike other superficially similar ones, there were some features which made the attribution of implied meaning look more plausible.

Most obviously, the authors of the letter had plenty of time and a relatively unlimited word count at their disposal when they wrote it. They might very easily have condemned the actions of Hamas and expressed sympathy for Israeli victims in addition to making their other points, but they did not. Instead, they talked vaguely only of “condemning every act of violence against civilians and every infringement of international law whoever perpetrates them” before swiftly moving on.

Equally, and as a recent counter letter from Israel-based progressives and peace activists has pointed out, the artists’ letter uses the language of human rights and yet apparently fails to extend the logic to Jewish people in particular. Since we generally expect people to take positions consistent with their background political commitments, where there is ample opportunity for a set of authors to manifest those commitments in a particular case yet fail to do so, it looks like something important is implied by the omission. All the more so where the authors also know they will be expected by readers to say what is being avoided.

Even here, though, it is worth bearing in mind that one’s interpretation might — just might — be wrong. (I don’t think it is in this case, but still.) Working out what is being implied but not directly stated is not like deducing the answer to a problem in arithmetic. As an interpreter of others’ pronouncements, you make assumptions which are always defeasible: for instance, that the speaker uses particular concepts as you do, that she has access to the same basic facts that you do, and that she actually has, at least roughly, the communicative goals that you attribute to her. This may not always prove to be the case, on further inspection.

Grice himself thought that working out what someone means to say is partly a matter of working out what purpose she is trying to achieve in speaking. His paradigm example was an ordinary conversation between two people in which the goal is the exchange of information. The speaker tries to get the hearer to believe something that she, the speaker, also believes. If information exchange is indeed a particular speaker’s goal, Grice thought, you can usually also assume that she will try to be truthful, relevant, economical with unnecessary detail, and clear in her expression — even if she fails in the attempt.

If she then omits something that you expected her to say — for instance, that Hamas’s treatment of Israeli civilians in the past few weeks is a disgusting breach of their human rights — perhaps the most straightforward explanation is that she doesn’t believe it herself, and so doesn’t intend to get you to believe it either. But it might also be because she thinks you already believe this, so that it would be uneconomical and perhaps even irrelevant to tell you again. The latter explanation looks unlikely in the case of the artists’ letter, but is not completely out of the question.

On social media, the necessarily truncated format — and moreover one that is often divorced from relevant context about the speaker or author — means that attributing unspoken implicatures to others is highly fraught. But to some extent, the same applies to public speech more generally. It’s why, despite their popularity amongst vengeful types, most complaints of “dog whistling” tend to fall flat: nobody can work out how to distinguish “covertly signalling your political commitments to your tribe in a way that only they will recognise” from merely accidentally saying the sorts of things which make it look as if you are. So much depends on background context about the speaker, to which hearers don’t usually have deep access.

Ideally then, if interpretative accuracy were really the goal, most public speech would be interpreted cautiously. Perhaps though, it will be riposted that this precisely should not be the goal, now that a war is on. Maybe the more morally urgent task is to stigmatise certain dangerous viewpoints, and also to be seen to do so, so that the habit spreads — whether the speaker currently being shamed or upbraided actually holds those viewpoints or not.h

Indeed, this seems to be Israel’s attitude, at least sometimes. Last week, the “State of Israel” Instagram account singled out model and actress Gigi Hadid for having shared a post saying “There is nothing Jewish about the Israeli government’s treatment of Palestinians. Condemning the Israeli government is not antisemitic and supporting Palestinians is not supporting Hamas.” In response, the Israel posted: “@gigihadid Have you been sleeping the past week? Or are you just fine turning a blind eye to Jewish babies being butchered in their homes? Your silence has been very clear about where you stand. We see you.” In tweeting in this way, the account delivered a strong rhetorical message to millions of onlookers, highly economically, and irrespective of whether Hadid is actually indifferent to the murders of Jewish babies or not. (I suspect she probably isn’t, though what do I know).

In any case, I am not so sure that the defence really works. Grice’s crucial insight was that interpreting another person’s speech or writing is just a sub-category of interpreting the actions of other people more generally. Working out what someone is trying to say is a form of working out what she is trying to do — to do, that is, with her words. In the realm of action, sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference. Equally, sometimes what initially looks like a case of justifying a cold-blooded, indefensible murder — or a case of blaming the victims for what happened to them — is really something else as well. Here, too, I still think it’s important for us to try to tell the difference.


Kathleen Stock is an UnHerd columnist and a co-director of The Lesbian Project.
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Leigh A
Leigh A
1 year ago

Suppose there’s a news story of a woman who is brutally murdered by her husband following an acrimonious divorce. Now suppose a male acquaintance you know says “I condemn that man for murdering his wife, but I also condemn the legal system for systematic bias against men.” Nobody is going to applaud such a comment. Nobody is going to think he makes a profound, reasonable point. Instead, they’re going to rip him to shreds. And rightly so – his refusal to offer unconditional compassion to a woman who has suffered a terrible death betrays a total lack of humanity.

I see that hypothetical man’s behaviour amongst many in our progressive classes, and I am profoundly disgusted by it. These ideologues, whose education and privilege means that they can’t use ignorance as a shield, refuse to state plainly that what Hamas did to innocent civilians is an outrage, without justification and beyond the pale of civilised society. Instead, and without fail, these self-described advocates for human rights, justice and equality adamantly refuse to condemn Hamas without compulsively caveating that “Israel has committed crimes too.”

Stating without qualifiers that Hamas has committed a terrible atrocity doesn’t undermine you when you say – later – that you’re concerned about the suffering of Palestinian civilians. It doesn’t expose hypocrisy to condemn Hamas, and then – later – note Israel’s past crimes against Palestinian people. What it does do is show that, when you say you support human, justice and equality, you actually believe it applies to all humanity. Not just the Palestinians or other ‘oppressed’ people. Everyone.

If you can’t bring yourself to do that, then you are as insincere, callous and repulsive as the man in the hypothetical scenario above. And you shouldn’t be surprised when the rest of the community, who have the decency and humanity to unreservedly criticise Hamas for this massacre, rip you and your phony values to shreds.

Last edited 1 year ago by Leigh A
Hazel Gazit
Hazel Gazit
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Excellent response.

Michael Brett
Michael Brett
1 year ago
Reply to  Hazel Gazit

An amazing ,brilliant comment.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Hazel Gazit

Yes indeed.

Angela Redman
Angela Redman
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Brilliant response

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Before I start, I want to be absolutely clear that, I agree with you that Hamas committed a terrible atrocity and that nothing Israel has done before or since should obscure that fact.
I would, however, quibble with the applicability of your analogy for two reasons.
First, the provocations that the murderous husband is citing to justify his actions are not the responsibility of his wife (she did not cause the bias in the legal system) and his response is entirely disproportionate (being murdered is much worse than coming off worst in a divorce).
But, second, a population is not a person and, in my view, ethical considerations do not apply in quite the same way. If you oppress a person, they may respond with violence. They would (generally) be wrong to do so (and certainly in this case) but the party who responds with violence is then subject to the consequences of their actions. The law then weighs the provocation against the response and in the case of your analogy, the husband would be condemned and anyone who defended him would be talking nonsense.
If you oppress a population badly enough and for long enough, you may eventually get a violent response. But the violent response comes not from the population as a whole, it comes from some subset of that population (Hamas rather than the children of Gaza). If Israel’s response could be confined to Hamas’s gunmen, then your analogy would be a better fit.
But it can’t.
We know that far more Gazan children have died from Israel’s airstrikes than died in the Hamas’ initial attack.
We also know that, in the 20 years leading up to the recent violence, far more children have been killed by the IDF than by Hamas rockets.
So, your analogy is flawed both because it mischaracterises the proportion of provocation and response and also because it conflates the wrongdoer (Hamas) with the person liable to punishment (the wider popluation of Gaza).

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

An excellent point George, are you a barrister, may I ask?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Agreed and much better than my response

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

I doubt it very much! Any half awake judge would have him ejected from the court if not committed for mental health reasons.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

We agree on that at least Liam

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Ha, no. Just verbose

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Children in Gaza are killed by Hamas, who build their various bases of operation underneath their schools, hospitals, and playgrounds. In the 20 years you cite, Hamas has been sending rockets into Israel to provoke the kind of camera-ready devastation we are now seeing; up until the October 7th atrocity, Israel has shown remarkable restraint.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

“Remarkable restraint”. Oh my God, what would you describe as unrestraint? Total annihilation? complete genocide? 2 million innocents dead? Gaza flattened?
6,500 and counting doesn’t satisfy you? How full of hate, how bloodthirsty, how Satanic do you need to be to hold such a view? I’m utterly appalled that anyone would call the wanton, indeed gleeful murder of totally innocent human beings in their thousands “restrained”.. I recommend you do some soul-searching; firstly to see if you have a heart let alone a soul..

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

So what’s the solution then? A ceasefire? That didn’t work out too well for Israel a few weeks back.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Israel has returned the gift of death that Hamas sent them. But given the barbarity of the death those savages enacted in Israel, the gift returned has to be many times more potent.
These are very old dynamics of human culture. But a real warring would have send several nuclear missiles over to Gaza because those Islamist folk over there regard that 2 million as a large group of martyrs and potential martyrs.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Stop getting carried away by yourself . She said ‘up till the atrocity on October 7th’

Andrew E Walker
Andrew E Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

On several forums I have asked the same question. What did Hamas think Israel would do after repulsing 2,500 rockets and suffering the barbarous atrocities of 7th October 2023? I am still waiting for a reply.

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
1 year ago

Remarkable restraint. Check what Prof Norman Finkelstein has to say if you have the stomach for it.
All his family except his parents were killed in the Holocaust.
Pls don’t be put of by the fact that he is called a ‘self hating’ Jew.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Corbett

Boo hoo. So what. All my family except my parents were killed in the holocaust too. I don’t give a flying f about what Finkelstein says. He’s entitled to his opinion, and I’m entitled to think his opinion about these matters is absurd, as do the vast majority of Jews, especially those who survived the holocaust. I love how the israel-bashers always trot out a jew to make their point, as if it does.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Jews do not have the monopoly on genocides. But they do get the first prize when it comes to using it as an excuse to behave abjectly.

Last edited 1 year ago by Danielle Treille
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem caused the progrom in Iraq in 1941 which led to murder of Jews. The GMJ moved to Berlin , supported the Final Solution , was friendly with Himmler and raised muslim Bosnians for SS. In 1947, the arab nations promisd to exterminate Jews and Hamas still does.
Please provide the plans so Israel can remove the threat of Hamas and not kill any Palestinian who have not been able to move to safe zones. Obviously this is easy to achieve nd israel is just being vengeful.
Since 1948 how much money has been given to Palestinains , how much stolen and how much spent on waging war on Israel? Hamas has built tunnels but not bomber shelters: why ?
In the 1930s The Trnchard doctrine said bombers would always get through and 100,000 would be killed. HMG said this was unaccetable so sent out specifications to develop figjhters to stop bombers; the Hurricane and Spitfire were the result. HMG developed bomb shelters and though the Anderson would not protect from a direct hit it did protect from being crushed from collapsing buildings, blast and splinters. Britain does not put military targets, such as command centres and munitions stores next to civilians. In WW2 HMG made strenuous efforts to protect it’s citizens; Hamas uses them as hostages and potential martyrs.
If you can show how Hamas protects the people of Gaza, please do so.

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Excellent comment — though am reading way after the thread has ended.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

As I said earlier same rehashed comments, once again.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

As if your repeated comments on rehashed comments isn’t.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

The Israel basher brought the holocaust into this, not me.Your comment has nothing to do with my response, but it is nasty.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

People may make a point about what they think without being subjected to name-calling and abuse.
It’s difficult enough for two individuals who both claim the ethnic, cultural, historical, geographical, moral and religious high ground to reach agreement. How two entire populations will ever do the same looks nigh on impossible.

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Exactly Jane. Ecclesiastes 3-11 come to mind of course.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Easy to say. Person one invokes the “Jew on his side”, person two then mocks the holocaust by treating it as some gambit by Jews. I have no problem calling Calling them both out as Israel-bashers. Your concern about politeness is touching. Too bad you couldn’t spare any for the targets of those bigoted remarks, for that’s what they are.

Paula Fields
Paula Fields
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Saying ‘boo hoo’ when referring to an entire family beingkilled in Nazi concentration camps sounds calous and it is hard to believe you suffered loss.
Of course we use jewish people as a source. For two reasons. Firstly, to address the claim that those who quetion the Israeli state or questions its policies are simply anti-semitic (a tiresome trope usually trotted out without any justification). Secondly, and more importantly, because some of the best crtics of Israel are jewish. Finklestein being one such critic. It seems to me you want to close your mind to the obvious – Israel (with the full-throated backing of Israel) has committed war crimes, is committing war crimes and will continue to commit war crimes. Be honest you don’t care about Palestinian lives and you are dishonest in your claim that an extreme right wing government in Israel is not committing war crimes.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Paula Fields

Wow so many false claims presented as fact. 1-No serious people, include Jews, ever call “critics of Israel” antisemitic, unless they indulge in demonization, delegitimization and double standards. Second: Israel hasn’t commited war crimes, you only say it has. third you have no idea how I feel about Palestinian lives. As for finklestein, he’s entitled to his opinion, and I’m entitled to state mine, which is that he’s full of it. And we both have (or rather had) holocaust survivor parents.As for this endless trotting out of the tiny minority of Jews who turn on their own people, yes I’ll always call it out for what it is: namely “look, he’s a Jew and he agrees with me.” So what? And yes, disbelieve all you want, but my mother’s brother, my father’s mother and his two brothers, not to mention their entire extended family and virtually all the Jewish community in the cities they lived in, were exterminated by the Nazis.

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
Paula Fields
Paula Fields
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

There are plenty of serious and unserious people using anti-semitism as a trope and seeing any opposition to Israel as a hate crime. The risk is that if we can’t discuss the issue seriously then we can’t determine a boundary as to what is anti-semitic.
Deprivation of clean water, fuel, medical aid of the civilian population against international humanitarian law, as is he forced movement of a 1 million people (especially whilst bombing their passage and destination). The President of the EU called the deprivation of water a war crime when speaking about the Ukraine but doesn’t know.
I don’t doubt you lost family what I found hard to believe was you said ‘boo hoo’ in relation to losing family in the concentration camps. If I said ‘boo hoo’ you would quite rightly call me anti-semitic.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago

But what could the children have done Allison!? You think they could just pack their bags and leave?? No one wants them in the West or neighboring countries, the y are not allowed to leave. The children are innocent victims, any fool can see that, even you…

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

But why were so many Palestinians killed in the past? Because there have been never ending hostilities against Israel with daily rocket attacks. The people responsible, where hiding between the innocent, in mosques, schools and civilian housing. Do you expect any country in the world to endure this onslaught and not react?
As soon as there were plans to reconcile (Oslo Peace Accords), the PLO walked away as Arafat got cold feet, probably afraid, that his own people would kill him. Now as Hamas is in charge there seems to be no solution , because they declare in their Charter, that there is only one way for peace in Palestine, which is to conquer the whole land “from the river to the sea” and annihilate the whole Jewish population.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

I suggest you read up on the Nakba.. The Palestinian people fought to keep their homeland like any people would do.. they were defeated thanks to USUK support for the Zionists and have been subjected to heinous war crimes and crimes against humanity ever since (UN say so, not just me). Hamas was set up by Israel to defeat the 2 state solution and the PLO defeated as a result.. Hamas is funded by Israel as well as Iran! Unbelievable? Yes, but true nonetheless. Are you aware that Israel’s murder rate is 25 times greater than Hamas’s.. both are EQUALLY reprehensible but one is far, far worse than the other!

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I suggest then you read up on the Farhud and many other similar events across the ME.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

My family was part of 12 million Eastern European refugees after WWII. Btw. 2million refugees lost their lives on the way to the West. All of the survivors had to find a new home and start new lives. If you look at the map of Europe now and before WWII, you find that many borders are redrawn… I don’t understand why after 75 years, “Palestinian Refugees” haven’t found a new peaceful home in either neighbouring Arab countries or agreed to a peace deal when Y.Rabin was PM, who tried extremely hard to find a solution. It seems totally incomprehensible and very tragic.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago

Agreed. at some point it is incumbent upon people and nations to accept the verdict of history. Most of the Jews who immigrated to present day Israel did so peacefully and legally, to the extent they outnumbered the Arabs, who resented this intrusion. They’ve been trying to use military force and terrorism to undo the sorts of natural demographic and border changes you mention, with little success.
Sadly, the Arab nations are complicit in the problem as well. Rather than let the refugees find jobs and integrate into the regular population, they specifically forbade them from doing so. Instead, starting in 1948 and continuing through successive rounds of conflict and refugee crises, they set up refugee camps, which still exist to this day. Since most of the original occupants are long dead, one might question how this is possible, but in fact the Arab countries now house the children and grandchildren of the original refugees in these same camps. This is rarely mentioned by media.
Like so many complex historical problems their original reason is vastly different than their current reason. At the time, they were still angling to destroy Israel themselves and the refugee camps made an excellent symbol for rallying their own people’s sympathy. They also thought terrorist tactics would work, and the camps made ideal recruiting sites. Over time, however, and after a series of unsuccessful wars against Israel, the Arab powers gradually realized they couldn’t reconquer the land, and they eventually saw how terrorism could come back to bite them and most renounced terror tactics, at least in principle. By that point, though, the camps had by then become hotbeds of crime, terrorism, and the type of radical Islam that has caused internal conflict within every nation. Radical Islam spreads terrorism and violence wherever it thrives. It’s a situation Europeans understand quite well I should think.
The Arab powers don’t want radical terrorists in their countries any more than Europeans do, but their leaders aren’t as idealistic (or perhaps just not as stupid) as those of Europe, and they are largely undemocratic states who don’t have to answer to their people for their policies. The proverbial 800 pound gorilla in the room is that nobody, not the Arabs, not the west, not Israel, wants these people because so many of them are terrorists or support terrorists. How many unskilled, foreign refugees would any nation be willing to take if one of every ten is a terrorist and half are potential terrorists? Nobody wants a bunch of radicalized terrorists and criminals in their territory. That’s why Israel unilaterally withdrew in 2007 rather than try to annex the territory as India finally did with Kashmir. Gaza had become so poor, so corrupt, and so thoroughly tainted by radical Islam that it was basically impossible to govern in a civilized way. Egypt has had a border with Gaza all this time, and for most of that period, they have actively participated in the blockade that Israel is usually solely implicated in.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Jolly
Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

I shouldn’t think the Palestinians wanted a bunch of radicalised terrorist Israeli’s in their land as uncontrolled immigration submerged their country and many were told to leave their dwellings at gunpoint.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Corbett

Palestine wasn’t a State, but an area, which got divided into separate countries. The borders were drawn in the sand by the the victorious Allies over the Ottoman Empire. Britain in the end decided to give a slither of Palestine to the Jews. Yes, many Arabs got displaced and lost their homes, some got compensated, some didn’t, which was a tragedy. But Jews were also kicked out of nearly every Arab country and lost everything.
Do you hear in Europe, that any Germans( from East Prussia and Silesia) or Poles ( from the Soviet Union/ Ukraine) live in artificial Refugee Camps and are radicalised or become terrorists after 78 years? They got absorbed by West Germany and the new Poland and got on with their lives. How many years does it take to accept the past ? Never?

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
1 year ago

Perhaps you describe the problem of excessive immigration.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The arab nations via radio told the Arabs to flee to better be able to destroy the Jews. After the war had been won and Jews wiped out they could return. The 1948 war did not go to plan for th arab nations even though they outnumbered the Jewish people 7 to 1.
Of all the money given to the Palestinians how much has been used to wage war on Israel, how much taken by the leaders and how much on peaceful development, perhaps bomb shelters? Tunnels cost £0.5M per mile to build. Why store munitions near civilians ?

Mark Turner
Mark Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I see the useful idiot is here again spouting his student politics……Reminds me of Mark Twains famous comment …..”Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Turner

Head towards Prof Norman Finkelstein for a more hardened well informed opponent.
He’s a self hating Jew as they say in some quarters.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Turner

Ahh Mark Twain, I love him too: – ‘Once a man gets a reputation as an early riser he can get up at midday!
Yes that wasn’t relative either! Liam’s point was valid and well intentioned, unlike yours?

Niels Georg Bach Christensen
Niels Georg Bach Christensen
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

In fact USA and UK didn’t direct support the coming Israel in the 1948 war, the idea behind the war wasn’t to create a palestinian state but to throw jewish people out, and then let the parts of the country be parts of arab contries. The UN partition plan was seen in retrospective a big advantage to the palestinians.

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

‘Murder’ LOL

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
1 year ago

No, because the Palestinians have been kept in the largest concentration camp in the world, with rations calculated to be just above starvation, by Israel.
A jewish Prof at a Hebrew University stated that Gaza was as described as above, David Cameron said it was an open air prison. 20 yrs not allowed in or out.
No wonder abomination occurs.

Last edited 1 year ago by Marcus Corbett
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Corbett

That is utter BS propaganda from start to finish. It reveals your ignorance about Gaza and even greater ignorance about what a concentration camp was. And talking about the blockade — nobody allowed in or out — without a word about why there is a blockade, i.e. unrelenting hostility, is disingenuous, to put it mildly. Never mind the shops in Gaza are flush with food, Israel had allowed workers from Gaza into Israel, sick children and others were treated in Israeli hospitals. Some concentration camp. Unbelievable people actually believe this guff.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

The relentless encroachment of the growing Jewish population into Gaza and the West Bank, the bulldozing of homes, IDF snipers picking off anyone who so much as approached the walls, caused burning resentment. That Israel allowed Palestinian children access to medical care and people to have food was the least they could do, given that people in those areas were living under the illegal military occupation of a far stronger, globally supported and better-armed power.
Terrorism is the last resort of the dispossessed. Hamas have become grotesque and twisted human beings, prepared to use random slaughter that has achieved nothing but bitter tears and more hate. Whatever their justification, that’s on them.
And so it goes on. Those of us trying to understand it all can try to look back at the history and the facts, as far back as records go, and yet all come to different conclusions. And no one side – neither Israelis not Palestinians seem capable of looking at themselves and saying – “We could do better”. They’re both fuelled with the fire of their own religious and national convictions.
So how can it ever come to a peaceful end?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

The Husseini Clan defeated the Nashashibis Clan in the 1920s to 1930s which meant the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem , Hal Amin Al- Husseini, a friend of Himmler and supporter of the Final Solution directed the actions of the Plaestinians. The arab nations threatened to exterminate Israel in 1948 and Hamas still does.
The Palestinians led by King Abdullah of Jordan may have produced a more peaful route but he was murdered by them in 1951.
By the way, some of the IDF snipers are Beduin.

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Another excellent comment, Mr Hedges, sadly read by just a few.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  james goater

Thank you. Part of the problem is that the Husseini Clan has led the Palestinians since the 1930s. His pro Nazi support is why Stalin supplied weapons to Israel. One aspect pf the violence against the Jewish settlers was that Order Wingate raised the Special Night Squads in which Moshe Dayan served. The SNS could be considered the first anti-insurgency military unit, similar to the SAS in Malaya of the 1950s.
CCC demonstrates the engineering competence of the Palestinians which combined with the more sensible approach of the Nashashibis Clan and King Abdullah of Jordan could have produced a less violent and more prosperous situation.
Consolidated Contractors Company – Wikipedia

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

There is no Jewish encroachment into Gaza, you silly person. Since you are obviously ignorant about what’s going on, perhaps you should refrain from offering your uneducated opinion.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

And there you have it. No more needs to be said. But hey, she’s “polite.”

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

We also know that tens of thousands died collaterally in every war of the 20th century. The difference is that Israelis don’t start it and they don’t dance and sing about rape-murder, child-mutilation and torture. 100s and thousands of Muslims literally celebrated in London, NY and Toronto. That’s the difference. And it’s not ‘punishment’ – any more than the people of Nagasaki were ‘punished’. That latter was just a cold calculation about the number of American lives it would take to invade Japan…combined with moral weighting that placed the lives of ‘ours’ above those of ‘theirs’. That’s very human – and perhaps forgivable, if not by ultimately human beings. But it wasn’t punishment. What Israel is doing is not punishment. It is fighting a war. All Hamas have to do is to stop killing Jews. And if millions of Palestinians wanted to, not to mention all the other Arab states, they could have deposed the militants and spent a billion dollars on turning Gaza into a paradise. They were too busy celebrating

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago

Actually, Truman didn’t need to weight “our lives” more heavily than “theirs” to conclude that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified: the estimates of casualties among Japanese civilians in a full scale invasion of the Japanese home island greatly exceeded the entire populations of the two cities combined, as did estimates for the number of soliders who would die on each side.

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

good point

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

You know there have been many wars in our time that have resulted in vast numbers of civilian casualties. Invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. War on Libya. Russian atrocities in Chechnya (50K+ civilians killed), Syrian civil war, etc etc etc. Somehow these emotional pleas on behalf of civilians only occur when it’s Israelis fighting a war. Have you ever heard another nation at war being called upon for “restraint” and to practice “proportionality”? Have any of these repeated heartfelt pleas about collective punishment and the plight of civilians ever been raised in any other conflict in our time? I can’t think of any in my lifetime (I’m 68). Why is that, I wonder?

Sadhbh Hegarty
Sadhbh Hegarty
1 year ago

To summarise, what you are saying is that Palestinians live in poverty because they have historically prioritised celebrating rape-murders, child mutilations and torture at the expense of their own basic human needs rather than using some billion dollars at their disposal to turn Gaza ‘into a paradise’? And you have received 93 likes for this? The blatant racism and dehumanisation of muslims in this comment’s section is abhorrent.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Of course it does.. it distorts and obfuscates far more than it throws light on the subject. It is a case, if left unwritten, would have been far better. I think he should apologise.

I hear you
I hear you
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

.

Mike Fraser
Mike Fraser
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

But suppose the facts show that the Palestinian people in Gaza are oppressed not by Israel but by Hamas.

Nardo Flopsey
Nardo Flopsey
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

I guess it would be a tactical and moral victory for Hamas if they only kidnapped or killed the militant right wing religious members of Netanyahu’s cabinet. So why didn’t they? Wouldn’t that have been a fair way to express their anger? I don’t hear this argument being made anywhere. But that is what you’re implying, correct?

P N
P N
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

“We know that far more Gazan children have died from Israel’s airstrikes than died in the Hamas’ initial attack.
“We also know that, in the 20 years leading up to the recent violence, far more children have been killed by the IDF than by Hamas rockets.”
Those are two disingenous and bad faith sentences.
Re the first sentence, you appear to be claiming that the slaughter of 1400 innocents, the beheading of babies, raping of girls and women, burning of families alive, is not as bad as the response to that atrocity simply because the response has actually killed more people. This is worse than a false equivalence because it completely ignores the intentions and limitations of the two parties. Hamas targeted civilians. Israel has responded by targeting combatants, that is to say the monsters who committed these crimes. Hamas uses the civilian population of Gaza, which elected it in the last election held in the Gaza, as a human shield and inevitably some of them are being killed as Israel targets the terrorists. But Hamas does not care. If it did it would be using its fuel reserves for hospitals rather than for keeping its terror tunnel network going.
Re the second sentence, again you appear to be claiming that because the fatalities from Israeli airstrikes are more than from Hamas rockets, then Israel is to blame. Again this completely ignores the intentions and limitations of both parties. Hamas indiscriminately fires rockets into Israel hoping to hit as many people as possible and cares not whether they are military or civilian targets. Israel uses targeted strikes to attempt to destroy Hama; it does not intentionally kill civilians. Israel also has a very effective anti-missile system. Is Israel to be condemned simply because it is more competent and capable.
Lastly, your assumption about an oppressed population fails to recognise that Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, forcibly removing thousands of Israelis in the process. Did they get peace in return? No.

Tina Rigler
Tina Rigler
1 year ago
Reply to  P N

.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tina Rigler
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

This is exactly what the author was rebelling against. But everyone can play this nonsense game. Should Israel be held responsible for the deaths of Palestinians if Hamas refuses to build public bomb shelters – if it does nothing to protect civilians?

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

I quibble with your use of quibble in this context.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

You ignore the fact that Hamas deliberately built their fortifications and tunnels underneath civilian dwellings. The dead children whose proximate cause of death was an Israeli rocket strike can ultimately be traced back to Hamas as well. In the civilized world, the rules of war basically state that military installations and targets be separated as much as possible from civilian populations to avoid exactly this scenario. Israel doesn’t want to be killing Palestinian children any more than they want their citizens to be abducted and murdered, but as a nation they must respond to a blatant and horrific act of war. War is often ugly, and one will doubtlessly find acts of questionable morality in every war from every side. Nevertheless, there are rules of warfare that we try to follow as best we can to minimize the ugliness of war. The Hamas offensive deliberately and flagrantly violated these rules. So too did they violate these rules by building tunnels underneath apartment buildings and hospitals in an attempt to use the people of Gaza as human shields. They have no regard for human life. They clearly and obviously hate the Jews, but they are almost equally callous and inhumane towards their own people. They are willing to use the Palestinian civilian population as fodder in the grinder of war for no purpose other than to generate sympathy for their cause. I find it truly disgusting that this tactic is working in even the smallest way. They are attempting to weaponize western sentimentality, and sadly, it’s working. I say don’t be duped by terrorists. Lay all the dead in this conflict at the feet of Hamas, for they have earned it by their hateful acts towards the Jewish people and their indifference to the suffering of their own. It is wise to recognize that situations of true good vs. evil are rare and to question the morality of all concerned, but it is also wisdom to recognize those few occasions when true evil reveals itself for all to see. The leaders and architects of Hamas must be found, caught, and either eliminated or imprisoned so securely that they can no longer spread their evil.

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Very well said.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

“Israel (Netanyahu) doesn’t want to be killing Palestinian children any more than they want their citizens to be abducted and murdered”
Seriously Steve, you believe that?? He hates Palestinians,

John Gleeson
John Gleeson
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Totally missed the point and assigned a motive to why he used the anology entirely of your own making so you could then insert the same type of thinking that was rightfully called out in his post.

You absolutely did not get what he meant and show you cannot seperate the two in the way that comes naturally to people who are able to totally seperate these events, and who understand oppression does not automatically lead to people acting like the most depraved serial killers as they did in this case.

Leonel SIlva Rocha
Leonel SIlva Rocha
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

I am truly dumbfounded that you have amassed 38 upvotes!

alan bennett
alan bennett
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

We know that far more Gazan children have died from Israel’s airstrikes than died in the Hamas’ initial attack.

Do you actually know, you cannot believe a word Hamas says, nor unfortunately can you believe the likes of the the UN and most other supranational bodies.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  alan bennett

After the last terrible 75 years I’m not sure I can believe a word either side says. They are both intractably wedded to their claims, both religious and national, and it looks as if neither will ever give them up. If it wasn’t so deadly, I’d compare them all to children fighting over the swings in the playground. It’s sickening.

alan bennett
alan bennett
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

There is no equivalence between Israel a nation fighting for its very existance and a vicious terrorist oganisation like Hamas.

Sam Brown
Sam Brown
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

The reaon why there are more casualties in Gaza than there ought to be is simply because Hamas embeds itself amongst the people in residential areas and this inevitably leads to collateral civilian deaths. Hamas is committing a war crime by hiding behind civilians and are totally responsible for the excess deaths. Do you really expect Israel to not attack Hamas after what they have done, given their objective is the destruction of the Jewish people? Do you honestly believe Israel is targetting the civilian population? It is not…but Hamas is putting the Gazan population in jeapordy and sadly more die as a result.

Andrew Morgan
Andrew Morgan
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Isn’t the point of military action in a war that it’s disproportionate? That’s how you win – by doing more damage to them than they do to you.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Morgan

Hallelujah! And have you ever heard such calls for “proportionality” in any other conflict other than when Israel is involved?

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Thanks for the irrelevant advice.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Morgan

Shouldn’t we be avoiding wars though? Too many on Unherd treat war like it is a ball game, choose your side and cheer them on. No one is in the right, that is not how human’s work, we are selfish, violent and ignorant, we kill everything and each other, nice…

Last edited 1 year ago by Carl Valentine
John Davis
John Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Sure, we should be avoiding wars, but not at any cost. Sometimes force can only be met with force. In the absence of a World Police, countries need to be able to defend themselves – which in practice means being able to strike back at those who threaten them.

John Davis
John Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Morgan

One of the tenets of civilized behaviour is that we behave proportionately. even in war. Not always followed, to be sure, but at least an ideal to strive for, like fairness or justice.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  John Davis

Utter rubbish. No country behaves proportionally in war. No country ever has, no country ever will.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Yakkaty Yak, Yakkaty Yak on and on it goes….. I personally have come out of a deep muddle to some simple clarity which is shockingly hard to bear.
What Hamas did on 7th Oct, was an act of babarism beyond sickening.
Israel’s response, both from the cathartic need for revenge, and for its responsibility to now, belatedly, protect its citizens must be to attack Hamas to the extent of disabling it, if not idealy wiping it out. (They are not militants. They are terrorist with one aim, to wipe out Israel and therefore not available for talks).
This response from Israel which I have verbally condoned will be the death of many, many innocent Palestinians with which the evil Hamas has carefully and strategically entwined itself.
When poison Ivy warps itself around an innocent apple tree the whole lot has to come down.
When we bombed Dresden was that evil for the good? What was the ‘proportionality’ was it relevant?
Sadly, we humans have got ourselves into such a predicament, we can’t afford the luxuary of being good anymore.
[ Resident Dyslexic, oppologies in advance for spelling mistakes I can’t see them.]

Last edited 1 year ago by elaine chambers
Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago

‘Sadly, we humans have got ourselves into such a predicament, we can’t afford the luxury of being good anymore.’
We/they were never good!

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Carl, true, but we like to think we are capable of making moral choices, is what I meant. Sadly our lives have become so complicated, we don’t always have that kind of privilege and often have to make terrible choices.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago

‘Moral’ choices become impossible to identify when each side believes that they have the moral, and especially the religious, high ground.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Talking about Israeli oppression of Palestinians/Gazans is absurd unless you ignore the plain fact that the governments in both Gaza and the Palestinian Authority aren’t interested in peace. Hamas’ charter and actions since they took power in Gaza in 2005 make that quite clear. In addition to their plain-as-day charter, they’ve fired off rocket barrages almost since day 1, thereby provoking a blockade that then is referred to as “oppression.” Give me a break.
The Palestinian authority isn’t much better, refusing peace offer after peace offer and never even making a counter-offer.
The Secretary General said that Hamas’ actions haven’t occurred in a vacuum. Neither has so-called Israeli oppression. You have to have a partner for peace. You can’t have peace negotiations with an enemy that remains sworn to kill you. The settlements in the West Bank are a side issue. Arab rejection was and remains the core issue, and until that changes, Israel will have little choice but to keep “oppressing” Palestinians.

B Stern
B Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

George, is your morality a weighing machine? The side with the more casualties is the more moral side? I assume you know that IL builds bomb shelters for its civilians and Hamas builds bomb shelters for its terrorists and then shoots missiles from next to schools and mosques. To your other remarks, I guess they should have negotiated an end to their predicament instead of continuing to attack a militarily superior force for years.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

I am not picking sides but I do not really think this is a valid parallel. There is no comparison between being on the wrong end of a bad divorce and what has happened to the Palestinians over the last 20 years.
How about the example where a woman returns hone and finds her husband has killed there four children and she brutally murders him. It is more apposite. Does it affect your analysis?

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
1 year ago

This entire exchange is wonderfully thoughtful, the quibbles especially. It points to the following question: Is it really true that human beings are fundamentally at war? Is peace a lie, or if not a lie, wishful thinking? Is the crime of Hamas the rejection of idealism in favor of realism? Is the answer to be Anton Chigurth, the antihero in No Country for Old Men. Is this what progress comes to?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

Correct.. a far better analogy! ..except the father has killed not just the 4 children but nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles, grannies and neighbours.. 24 people in all. That’s a kill rate of 24 to 1 ..which is more accurate.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

That must be among the worst analogies I’ve ever heard in my 74 years! Israel’s heinous war crimes, crimes against humanity, collective punishment, murder of thousands of totally innocent people likened to a “deficient legal system”.
But I agree, being appalled at heinous crimes and outraged at evil vengeance and pity for all victims must be universally applied to be valid.

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Mark Turner
Mark Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I am surprised you have time to sit here spouting drivel Liam, thought you would be out with the rest of the scum chanting “Jihad” and making the rest of us ashamed of our country…….

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Turner

You are the one who sounds like scum Mark!

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

so much blah blah, so little time.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

What a crock.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

That’s Leigh told.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Really? Doesn’t sound much like a valid argument to me.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Sarcasm, like much else, appears to be lost.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Trouble is the priveleged UN/Leftie types are a tiny minority of humanity BUT large majority of those holding access to media other forms of state power. The reason they want to destroy market economics or freedom is an extension of this – because these are areas immune to their juvenille ranting and closed minded idiologies.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

I would upvote this 100 times if I could. Captures my own sentiment perfectly.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Yes you are either that or a politician.
Conflicts like the Israeli Palestinian situation highlight the impotence of the UN.
Evil men use it to their ends(sorry, and of course women).
Its a story as old as history. Good thing there are others stories also.

Oliver Butt
Oliver Butt
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Personally if someone said to me ““I condemn that man for murdering his wife, but I also condemn the legal system for systematic bias against men.” I would not be at all upset about the comment. I suppose, depending on the details of the case, that I might think that the second part of the sentence was a non sequitur of the first part; but that is all.

Fafa Fafa
Fafa Fafa
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

People like this comment that teems with fallacies, so KS has some more explaining to do. The murder was “brutal”, the death was “terrible”, the lack of humanity was “total”, “nobody” would do X is presented as a fact … The gist of the mid-section was relatable, but then emotionality sets in again. I would just point out the man in the hypothetical scenario was sincere (unless the poster thinks that he believed the man was actually loved the legal system that was biased against men, or believed that it was not biased)

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Ms Stock is very much of the left, she claims the left (particularly Guardian readers) listen to her because she is a lesbian and has retained her local accent, which would have previously indicated her working class background (she is not working class but it allows the deluded to believe they are championing the working class). The BBC prefers their presenters to have local accents and as a consequence the presenters are inclined to exaggerate their accents, Vernon Kay for example (I much preferred the mellifluous tones of Terry Wogan and Ken Bruce). Similarly, Meghan Markle uses fake tan and makeup to darken her skin colour to support her claims she is a victim of racism and signal her support of BLM. Kathleen Stock cannot maintain her relationship with the left and argue in favour of Israel. I suspect this is a pivotal moment in history: the tactics of the left are being exposed: using those society is expected to protect as a shield: the headquarters of Hamas appear to be below a hospital.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago

‘Left’ and ‘Right’ are illusory contemporary concepts. It’s no longer a zero sum game. Many people are now in the position of being what used to be called leftwing on some issues and rightwing on others. So using these terms to undermine or otherwise try to rubbish people like Kathleen Stock is a waste of time. I doubt that Ms Stock gives a toss about ‘maintaining her relationship with the left’.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

I disagree about Kathleen Stock and have stated some of the reasons why. I agree the terms left and right have lost their traditional meanings but people still cling to the terms: consider the terms part of their identity. Julie Bindel and Helen Joyce gave a talk: should TERFs unite with the right.

Marcus Corbett
Marcus Corbett
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

‘Stating without qualifiers that Hamas has committed a terrible atrocity doesn’t undermine you when you say – later – that you’re concerned about the suffering of Palestinian civilians.”

“I condemn that man for murdering his wife, ” is the first statement. (No qualifier).

” I also condemn the legal system for systematic bias against men.” is the second.

“…that you’re concerned about the suffering of Palestinian civilians.” ……is so pathetically unappreciative of decades of murder and abuse, of the maintenance of the largest concentration camp in the world (according to an Israeli jew Prof at Henrew University in Israel) as to be disgusting.
This statement bears no relation to “I also condemn the systematic bias visited upon the Palestinians. “

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Marcus Corbett

True. but Leigh A blows a good dog whistle!

Catherine Berman
Catherine Berman
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Who cares if Guterres managed to condemn Hamas while claiming its savagery didn’t occur in a vacuum? In making such a claim, that condemnation becomes equivocal and morally indefensible. Furthermore, he did not take the opportunity of condemning Hamas for their crimes against their own people, crimes such as using hospitals and schools to camouflage rocket-launching sites.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago

Of course Hamas’ savagery didn’t happen ‘in a vacuum’. Nothing does. Every act in history is attached to a long chain of events that could at any time make it possible for an atrocity to happen. Israel wants to maintain that it is permanently on the moral high ground. No one is. Especially when it comes to armed conflict.

elaine chambers
elaine chambers
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

I’m somewhat confused by your example, ‘man murders woman and excuses are made with which no one would agree.’ You criticise so called educated elites who insist on making excuses that no ‘moral’ person would make. Then you suggest that it would not be hypocritical of them to use these excuses to critices the relatives of these abused massacred Israelis! BUT IT WOULD! You offer such a compromise as a means by which we can support human justice and equality. This is an illusion, which surely we have come to understand from the mass horrors like the holocaust and Rwanda? Our morals are always a matter of compromise and we are forced to make horrible choces.
Who would you sell to slaughter to save your children? In short Leigh, to make a moral choice is a priviledge we rarely have when push comes to shove.

David Hirst
David Hirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Leigh A

Applaudable. Thanks for posting, Leigh.

I hope your comment gives encouragement to those who need it, and provokes reflection in those others who ought to review their feelings and actions in the wake of the atrocity.

Best regards

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago

Kathleen, people claiming to support the Palestinians celebrated the atrocities committed by Hamas. They cheered.In public.
I have never seen a rally held by Jewish people cheering for the mass rapes or murders of Palestinian civilians.
One of these things is not like the other.
I’m sure you mean well, but I’m afraid you are dangerously naive on this issue.
The Palestinians, not just Hamas, despise the Jewish people. If given the chance, Hamas will do to every Jewish person in Israel what they did on October 7. And at least half of all Palestinians would cheer them on.
Palestinians do not just hate the Israeli government; they hate the Jews. This may offend your sensibilities, but it is true.
The goal of the Israeli government is not “interpretative accuracy”; the goal of the Israeli government is to prevent a second Holocaust within a hundred years from being committed against the Jewish people.
There are 16 million Jewish people in the world compared to 420 million Arabs.
There are 22 Arab nations filled with hundreds of millions of people
The Jewish people have one tiny country, surrounded by sworn enemies.
Israeli civilians just suffered the biggest act of genocidal violence since the Holocaust.
And the response to that, from hundreds of thousands of “Free Palestine” supporters, was “Hooray!”
You wrote: “In the realm of action, sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference. ”
I’m going to be generous with my interpretation and not accuse you of making this statement in reference to the horrors committed by Hamas: gang rapes, maiming, torturing, and burning alive of innocent civilians, including babies bound with wire to their mothers.
I’m going to assume you condemn these atrocities is the strongest way possible.
I won’t assume when you wrote “sometimes it is really something else” that you were claiming the sadistic slaughter committed by Hamas was anything other than an atrocity.
But your choice of words is unfortunate, and possibly even a little insensitive.
They cheered Kathleen. They tore down posters of missing Jewish babies and toddlers.
As far as Israel’s military response to this genocidal hatred, “sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference.”
Try to tell the difference, Kathleen. 
The Jewish Israelis are living next door to millions of people who elected a terrorist group to lead them, who explicitly put their intention to exterminate the Jews in their charter, and who loathe Jewish people every bit as much as the Nazis did.
If someone says “I want to kill you!” I may not believe they mean it.
But if someone says “I want to kill you” while shooting a gun at me, I’d be an idiot not to.
It was suicidal for the Jews not to take the Nazi’s at their word in the 1930’s and it would be suicidal for the Jews not to take the Palestinians and their allies at their word today.
Never Again.
Long Live Israel.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Brilliant comment!. Mahmoud Abbas has recently been found making anti-Semitic statements. The Palestinian Authority (not Hamas’) says one thing (most of the time) to western governments, while saying – and teaching Palestinian kids something very different.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Look, I am on your side here, but this kind of attack on a fairly neutral article is not doing your side any favours. “I’m going to assume you condemn these atrocities is the strongest way possible.” forsooth! Forcing people to choose between being your uncritical allies or your enemies may not be a net gain for you. For what little it is worth I doubt there is a peaceful ‘solution’ to be had and I shall hope you win – if nothing else because whatever you do to the Palestinians in the process will be much, much less than what the Palestinians would do to you if they won.

Still, you are better off allowing people some space for talking. Why not save your powder for the people who really do support the other side? Regrettably there is no shortage of them.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

“Forcing people to choose between being your uncritical allies or your enemies may not be a net gain for you.”
Whatever else we may disagree about Rasmus, you’re right on this

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

When a woman is raped, I don’t ask what she did to deserve it or wonder whether or not she has a right to take action against the rapist. Sometimes people do have to choose a side, because not choosing is just a cowardly way of siding with the perpetrator.
Hamas gang raped women until their pelvises shattered. They tied mothers and children together and set them on fire.
There is nothing to discuss here.

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

“There is nothing to discuss here” — my view and only my view is legitimate — is exactly the mindset that perpetuates violence, and that justifies war over any attempt at peacemaking.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

*(initially posted in the wrong spot)

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Yeah yeah it’s all Penny’s fault for not thinking discussion about vile acts is warranted. I agree with her. And nothing about that “perpetuates violence.” That’s just mindless blather. Eliminationist mindsets perpetuate violence.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

What perpetuates violence is people thinking thinking they can undertake it without being punished for it. People do not start fights thinking they will lose and suffer pain. People who start violence only stop and accept peace when they fear being defeated and being punished .
When people gain from violence why should they stop?

Geoff W
Geoff W
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Indeed. And to take the analogy which started this thread, and which GV responded to: When a woman is murdered by her husband, I don’t go looking for a flaw in the legal system to justify him.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Why pretend to engage in a discussion when “there is nothing to discuss here”? If making multiple heartfelt, impassioned announcements while condemning the perceived wrongthink of all who even slightly disagree with you consoles you in some way. fine. But it is not fairminded or fruitful exchange.
Incidentally, if you allowed for the existence of any middle ground or complexity of situation, I would stand closer to you than your diametrically opposed enemies.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

In this ISIS+ massacre there isn’t any middle ground. If there is, please indicate what it might be. I don’t recall anyone saying such things when ISIS atrocities were revealed. Is it different when it’s Jews? (rhetorical)

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

That’s untrue. Many quite correctly pointed out that, notwithstanding the ruthless wickedness of the Islamic State aspirants, the US and Allied forces should still take pains to avoid blasting civilian populations in ISIS strongholds. I’d say Iraq was devastated in ways that were inevitable and ways that were not.
Is it incontrovertibly 100-percent just to perform a medieval-type siege in which people die of thirst and even starvation for lack of open channels for humanitarian aid?
Again, I say this with major sympathy for the Israeli defensive and deterrent cause, but of course it’s your right to dismiss me as an enemy who, being insufficiently for what you believe to be right, is all the way against you. I wish you wouldn’t though.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I don’t recall daily mass demos across the globe over allied attacks on ISIS. And your description of current Israeli actions is inaccurate. As for this “if you aren’t with me 100%” business, that’s entirely in your mind.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Most people don’t descend as far into the moral morass as Hamas, but that’s not to say that everyone else is up in the realms of moral purity. Or are you suggesting that all wrong exists only on the Palestinian side and no wrong of any kind on the Israeli side? No conflict in history has ever been completely one-sided, however tiny the wrongs of one.
In any case what Hamas did was utterly unspeakable in its monstrous and terrible depravity. It is impossible for any rational person to even imagine what kind of grotesque psychotic state anyone would have to be in to do such things.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

I fully agree concerning Hamas and its members themselves. But we’re allowed to recognize that that’s not the entire equation in some black-and-white way. Acknowledging complexities and considering proportionality needn’t count as an automatic act of disrespect toward one side’s innocent victims.
*(And I’m not suggesting you disagree with that).

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Nobody has suggested that. Someone did suggest that the Hamas attack was morally indefensible and there was nothing to discuss about that, and I agree with her.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

I do think that has been suggested multiple times here. The scope of that commenter’s remarks went well beyond the obvious indefensibility of Hamas, into reflexive offense at any suggestion of restraint in the interest of civilian wellbeing. Perhaps you can point me to a comment, on this board, which defends the recent actions of Hamas, or their genocidal charter?
Now the claim that it is somehow morally off-limits or blood-complicit to argue that the overall and historical situation is not entirely one-sided goes further than unambiguous denunciation of the October 7th atrocities, which I don’t see much departure from on this thread.
Perhaps it seems too soon to advocate the humanity of Palestinian civilians–several thousand (8,500?) of whom have died in a few weeks–though some of them, a sickening percentage, undoubtedly support Hamas. But we don’t nuke whole cities or territories anymore, not since 1945, and I hope never again.
I appreciate that there is some real discussion on this board. But there are some finger-wagging efforts to forestall real discussion too. That’s allowed too, of course.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Get real. There have been civilian deaths in the thousands, tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands in many conflicts since WWII, some as recent as, well, this past year in Ukraine. Not to mention Mosul and the rest of the dismantling of ISIS, the Syrian civil war, bombing of Libya and Belgrade, the Iraq war, etc etc. I don’t recall hordes of marchers protesting the slaughter of civilians then, certainly not with the same intensity and emotion. I wonder why?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

If you want to get real instead of more self-certain and contentious: Why do you suppose that is?
*(Oh: In the totality of your posts you seem to claim that is some combination of Arab hostility and plain antisemitism alone that creates the singular negative reaction–as you put aside the waves of major support, including on this board–that you assert. I partly I agree with you, but not to the nth degree )
To the extent your characterization is accurate, that is.
Not permitting humanitarian aid to reach stranded civilians is a mistake with moral and, likely, later mortal consequences for both sides, due to increased enmity and misunderstanding heaped on top of a raging, age-old antagonism.
There were huge protests against the Iraq War, including the “collateral damage” there. How old are you man?
Some eggs get broken, some civilians die. Sure. That doesn’t mean you wantonly break or kill them by the dozen, gross, and thousand because “stuff happens” and it’s happened before.
I’m not denying Israel’s right to defend herself, nor to retaliate. But civilian death counts matter, and a humane treatment of uninvolved non-combatants should be honored, or at least attempted. Right?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Awdry

Since I never suggested that, I can’t answer your question. I would say that the root cause of the conflict is Arab rejectionism of a Jewish state in any way, shape or form. Everything else stems from that and is a sideshow.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

At times there is no middle ground. In WW2 by 1944- 1945, at times there was no middle ground. If one read’s Macintyre’s Rogue Heroes , there was no middle ground between the SAS and SS. After Hitler gave the Commando order in 1942, rules changed. Of the 100 SAS captured in France only 6, survived: some were shot, others burnt to death and others beaten to death. There was no middle ground between the forces of the British Empire and Japan in Burma in 1944-45 or when the USA dropped the atom bomb. When Chindits were to too wounded to march doctors killed them with morphine or they were left with a hand grenade. The Kempetei were like the Gestapo.
We bombed Dresden because were asked to do by the Soviets who lost 100,000 men in the month of April 1945 fighting into Berlin and probably 500,000 in 1945.
When it comes to water hamas have not developed the aquifer , so hence there is shortage.
Since 2005, using Palestinians engineers and Gulf money Hamas could have built, harbours, docks, hosdpitals, water treatment plants, sewage treatment plants, factories for advanced engineering, further developed nurseries left by Israelis, a computer industry for the arabic world, etc. Instead it has waged war on Israel and failed to build bomb shelters. In 1944 Britain built Mulberrry Harbours for D- Day why did not Hamas improve upon them ?
Mulberry harbour – Wikipedia

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Dresden lives in infamy, despite the German atrocities. The horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki cried out against dropping nukes ever again, even with the ruthless determination of Imperial Japan.
I’m not defending Hamas. I’m insisting on the human rights of the general population in Gaza. No obliteration by association please.
I’m not standing in or advocating any middle ground between Israel and the terrorist zealots–Hamas and others–who seek to destroy the whole nation. Beyond that, I think there is some complexity or middle ground, though shrinking or denied outright, and though we need not stand near the exact middle in the interest of some cheap equivalence.

Kolya Wolf
Kolya Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Indeed. No decent person would say of a rape that it did not occur in a vacuum.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  Kolya Wolf

That’s why the analogy doesn’t work. Analogies rarely do.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Well all right then…

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

You go too far Penny

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

The analogy doesn’t work, because a woman being raped is a clear instance of a force being exerted on a less powerful person.
In the case of two nations engaged in armed conflict, there may well be one more and one less powerful side, but to claim that one is entirely blameless is disingenuous. There are too many individuals that make up a nation or a people. Some may be psychotic, some may be moderate, some may even be entirely sympathetic with the other side. The emergence of Hamas, with its murderous nihilism, comes after 75 years of conflict. IOt’s far too complex to be distilled into a simple analogy.There is a trajectory, and it cannot in any way be likened to the interaction of two individual humans, no matter how awful.

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

My allies? I’m neither Israeli nor Jewish. Also, I’m in no position to “force” anyone to do or say anything.
Whatever I choose to do to the Palestinians?
I’m an Irish Catholic American. The IDF has not consulted me in any way regarding their military response to Hamas’ genocidal attack on them. Although I do sincerely hope they are able to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth.
The “forsooth” was your interpretation, not mine. Which is ironic because the entire article was about not impugning your critics with bad motives.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Maybe my English is at fault. By ‘forsooth’ I meant that the quote I just gave was way over the top.

For the rest, you have chosen to speak the Israeli line – with a lot of vehemence. I thought you were speaking for them, so I answered to the plural ‘you’ of Israel and the people who have chosen to stand with it, you included. I did assume that anyone writing like that was somehow part of the Israeli/Jewish community, but it makes no real difference if you are not. For the purpose of discussion I cannot see the need for making a strong distinction between you and the people you have chosen to join in the debate. But you can replace each ‘you’ by ‘your friends’ or ‘the people you support’ if you prefer.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Was there also an anti-ISIS “line” that required debate?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Yes, should throats be cut from left to right or right to left? What type of fuel should be used to burn people alive?

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Don’t apologise Rasmus, she is American, the nation behind most of our worlds’ woes…

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

So you prefer he Nazis to have won in WW2? Britain was bankrupt by 1942. Without aid from UK and USA in 1941 and 1942, the USSR would have collapsed: Japan was in India by 1944, aid was supplied to China.
Or would you prefer a World run by the USSR and Maoist China ?The USSR killed about 66M of it’s people between 1918 and 1956 and Maoist China about 70M.
Why do so many people want to emigrate to the USA if it causes so many woes?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Absurd

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

What ever happened to your God’s “turn the other cheek”…?I

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago

God again huh? It’s everyone claiming their god’s preference that is the cause of all this awfulness.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Whilst i broadly support your sensibilities on the conflict, i think you may have fallen into the trap that KS warns against. She’s a professional philosopher, and whilst that may seem a rather cold perspective to be writing from, i’d argue that it’s much-needed when so much hot-headedness is flying around.

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

There are far too many cold perspectives when it comes to the cruelty of the world. Philosophers did nothing to prevent the first Holocaust & they will do nothing to prevent the second one that Hamas is determined to commit if given half a chance.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Marx is regarded as a philosopher. Those with an agenda use such writers to prop up their inhumanity. I’ve no doubt that KS has her own views on the conflict between Arab and Jew but in this article her perspective is one which moves away from propping up those who inflict inhumanity.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Actually it is worse. As Professor S Hicks , philosopher has pointed out ideology has created mass murder. Both the Nazis and Communists are inspired by ideology, in fact are the creations of intelligent philosophical people. Being spiritual, intelligent or moral does not mean one is kind hearted. Many mass murdering Nazis and Communists loved their children. Some humans have the capacity to love some and torture and murder others.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Too true. Well said.
*And sometimes a kind heart gets swallowed by runaway ambition or an overactive brain.

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Cris P
Cris P
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Indeed, if we – who are mostly in a position to “distance” ourselves from the situation (by which I don’t mean look at it cold heartedly) – are not able to do that, how can we expect that those in the midst of the conflict find any middle ground?

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

One problem is that Islamists have somehow managed to indoctrinate the liberals among us that any support for Israel and Jewish people is tantamount to Islamophobia. That dreadful word has been thrown around so much these days that most public figures are now afraid of being labeled as one, for the fear of violence that may follow.

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Penny,
There is nothing in Kathleen’s article that can possibly be inferred in the way you fear it could be. I took that part of her comment to be pointing to things like the propaganda foolishly advanced by the BBC about the hospital rocket being Israeli. When you look at things like that I am sure you will agree with Kathleen that it is important to really look at what is being presented to make sure it really is what it appears at first sight to be.

David McKee
David McKee
1 year ago

A philosopher’s take on the current war of words… Prof. Stock has a point. For example, “Where are you really from?” might mean to a black person, “You don’t belong here.” Or it might mean, “I’m bored. Tell me a story of somewhere exotic and far away.” As such a remark usually comes from a complete stranger, it’s wise to probe a little first to find out the underlying intent, before reacting.

On the other hand, antisemites are good at camouflage. A nod, a wink… the point is made to another antisemite. Silence too: is someone who was beside himself with rage over the murder of George Floyd and bitterly critical of Tory transphobia, yet silent about Hamas’s massacre of Jews, is that person giving us a deliberate message?

T Bone
T Bone
1 year ago
Reply to  David McKee

Where was this kind of contextualization with Ukraine/Russian War? It didn’t exist. One side was considered to be protecting its territorial sovereignty and the other was invading it. Fine, sensible position. Now, the direct conflict initiator is placed on a moral equivalence to the side that was invaded. What? How does that happen.

So what most on the Post-colonial Left are saying is that only one of the two conflicts happened in a vacuum. That’s just objectively false. Post-colonial leftists haven’t been about Peace and aren’t about Peace. They’re about performance theatre and propagating conflict theory. They think that with their refined, hyper-educated Gnosis that they can identify Oppressors and the Oppressed and it will prove to their peers how enlightened they are. But these abstract conflicts are now real conflicts not Avant-garde reenactments so we’re seeing performance theatre run directly into the consequences of it’s unseriousness.

Last edited 1 year ago by T Bone
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

But in the case of the Israel/Hama/Gaza conflict currently unfolding, who has actually invaded whose territory?

Hazel Gazit
Hazel Gazit
1 year ago

William, Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Hamas took over the leadership after violently ejecting the Palestinian Authority. Since then, they have continuously stolen the billions of dollars in aid and used it to build a strong terrorist infrastructure (the network of tunnels under Gaza) and weapons and rockets which are used against the civilian population of Israel. They are currently bleating that they have no fuel and no electricity. But they still have plenty of rockets which they are STILL firing at Israeli civilians.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Hazel Gazit

‘Hamas violently expelled the PA’
And you think the unarmed civilians can overthrow them?
They (Hamas) are violent fanatics, perhaps you could have given them (the civilians) a hand? I would suggest the Palestinian civilians have been caught between a rock and a hard place for some time…
Do you really believe it would be easy for the civilian population to overthrow them, not to mention the Israeli stranglehold on their economy.

Last edited 1 year ago by Carl Valentine
Andrew M
Andrew M
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

We don’t see any of their fellow Muslims and Arabs rushing or even sauntering to help them on this front. Perhaps this is their chance to exploit the power of the only definitely anti-Hamas country in the region, which is reportedly set to invade any day now?

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  Hazel Gazit

The original damage was done decades ago and terrorists have long memories for wrongs, whether real or perceived. They will always fire rockets into Israel because they have no other way of thinking. The creation of Israel has stuck in their craw since 1948. They are murderously determined and no amount of suffering of their own people will stop them. There will always be more of them.
Religious fervour is the worst kind.

Paul T
Paul T
1 year ago

Hamas invaded Israel since Israel pulled out of Gaza completely in 2005. Didn’t you know that?

Last edited 1 year ago by Paul T
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul T

As you very well know Israel is still illegally occupying territory which it seized in 1967

Benjamin Dyke
Benjamin Dyke
1 year ago

Nice to take this tribal again after a little respite when reading the article 😉 You are aware that Israel won the territory in a war that they didn’t start, which to me changes the narrative a whole lot! If your neighbour used their land to attack you and in you repelling the attack decided you no longer trusted their intentions and therefore decided to camp on the land to protect yourself from future attacks has another ring to it and I am not justifying all the settlement building. I just hate the crap spoken about colonialism and ethnic cleansing and occupation…

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Dyke

I am afraid you are wrong.
This is an extract from Wikipedia “On 5 June 1967, as the UNEF was in the process of leaving the zone, Israel launched a series of preemptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort.[24] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly all of Egypt’s military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israeli military launched a ground offensive into Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. After some initial resistance, Nasser ordered an evacuation of the Sinai Peninsula; by the sixth day of the conflict, Israel had occupied the entire Sinai Peninsula.”
Still never let the truth get in the way of blind prejudice.

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
1 year ago

Egypt had already attacked. What is described is a brilliant and rapid fight back, which totally wrong footed .the attackers. Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsula in the late 70s as part of a land for peace deal with Egypt which saw Egypt recognise Israel’s legitimacy as a state and normalised relations between the 2 countries, which in turn has kept the peace between the 2 countries since.
This proves that when the violence stops and the threat of genocide is removed, Israel will act fairly and rationally to do what is best for everyone, but never let the truth get in the way of blind prejudice.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

What is it with you people. Do you just make things up and what does that say about your judgement?
Egypt did not attack first. Even Israel subsequently admitted that it was a war of conquest. After the war, they admitted that Israel wasn’t expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt. Mordechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet at the time, admitted “This whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon, a posteriori, to justify the annexation of new Arab territories,”
Subsequently  Israeli Prime, Minister Menachem Begin and former terrorist, conceded in a speech in August 1982 that “in June 1967 we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” In fact, Israel received reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack (how right they were), and the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities.
I could also throw in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon and the Israeli instigated massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refuge camps.
The corollary of your comment is that if the surrounding Arab nations were now to overwhelm Israel and drive the population into a small encircled enclave (say the Gaza strip) that would be fine and dandy.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

What is it with you people. Egypt did not attack Israel first and, as far as I know, no one has ever made this claim
After the war, Israeli is admitted that Israel wasn’t expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt. Mordechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet at the time admitted “This whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon, a posteriori, to justify the annexation of new Arab territories,”
Subsequently  Israeli Prime and former terrorist, Minister Menachem Begin, conceded in a speech in August 1982 that “in June 1967 we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” In fact, Israel received reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack (how right they were), and the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities.
I could also throw in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon and the Israeli instigated massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
The corollary of your argument is that if the surrounding Arab countries overwhelmed Israel and drove the population into a small encircled enclave (say the Gaza strip) that would be fine and dandy. And if you are right what on earth are we doing getting involved in Ukraine.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Is that why they are slowly but surely kicking Palestinians out of the West Bank? Out of fairness and rationality?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

The Palestinian population of the West Bank has increased 5-fold since 1967. Some big “kicking out.” And of course, if the PA would negotiate a sincere peace, that would be the end of what you purport to care about.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

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Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

1

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Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

What is it with you people. Egypt did not attack Israel first and, as far as I know, no one has ever made this claim
After the war, Israeli is admitted that Israel wasn’t expecting to be attacked when it initiated hostilities against Egypt. Mordechai Bentov, an Israeli cabinet at the time admitted “This whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon, a posteriori, to justify the annexation of new Arab territories,”
Subsequently Israeli Prime and former terrorist, Minister Menachem Begin, conceded in a speech in August 1982 that “in June 1967 we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” In fact, Israel received reports from the United States to the effect that Egyptian deployments were defensive and anticipatory of a possible Israeli attack (how right they were), and the US assessed that if anything, it was Israel that was pressing to begin hostilities.
I could also throw in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon and the Israeli instigated massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.
The corollary of your argument is that if the surrounding Arab countries overwhelmed Israel and drove the population into a small encircled enclave (say the Gaza strip) that would be fine and dandy. And if you are right what on earth are we doing getting involved in Ukraine.XXXXXX

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

As usual, only part of the story. The rest of it is as follows: Nasser ordered the UNEF out of Sinai so he could invade israel. Egypt blockaded the straights of Tiran, putting a stranglehold on Israel’s economy. It was clear to all that Egypt planned to attack; the Israelis took pre-emptive measures, and good on them for doing so. It’s also worth mentioning that Israel offered to give all the occupied territories back in 1967 in exchange for peace. What it got instead were the three No’s of the Khartoum conference: No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel.
Funny how you left all that stuff out of your wee little screed.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

I do not think you read my little screed.
If you had you would have noticed that the US advised Israel that Nasser’s moves were purely defensive. In fact they were a response to  a message from the Soviet Union informing him that Israel had massed troops on the Syrian border, Nassar having pledged to assist Syria in the event of a future Israeli attack.
Also when even the Israeli politician who made the decision to launch the attack was a war of conquest you still chose to deny it.
I am not aware of any offer made by Israel to give back the 1967 territories in exchange for peace, and I have checked. If you can provide evidence of this I would be very interested to see it. After all I have provided evidence to back my assertion that the 1967 war was a war of conquest.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

If you are unaware of the three noes from The Khartoum conference, it’s pretty clear you’re getting your info from extremely biased sources that cherry pick facts to fit a preconceived narrative. You’ve also obviously never heard of google. Your so called evidence, therefore, is of little value and frankly, you don’t know enough about this conflict to comment intelligently.

Arthur G
Arthur G
1 year ago

Who says it’s illegal? Virtually every country in the world is currently sitting on at least some land it conquered in a war.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

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Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

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Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Israel happy to cite on UN Resolution 181 that divided Great Britain’s former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states as legal justification for its existence.
But then you have Security Council Resolution 242 that calls for the withdrawal of Israeli troops from the occupied territories and Security Council Resolution 2334 which state that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and demands that Israel stop such activity and fulfils its obligations as an occupying power under the Fourth Geneva Convention.
I am glad I was able to help your understanding on this issue

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

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Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

1

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

a

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

There is nothing illegal about an occupation when the people being occupied refuse to negotiate an end to their occupation, which they could do any time they got over their lose-take-all obsession of destroying Israel. Occupying a country after a war is not against “international law,” whatever that is.
Someone recently noted that “everyone becomes a historian when they see a dead jew.” It also seems that everyone becomes an expert on international law when the jewish state is involved.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

I think it has been accepted since 1945 that waging a war of conquest is a breach of international law and the 1967 war which gave Israel its current boarders was a war of conquest launched by Israel. So ipso facto continuing to occupy conquered land is unlawful.
If we invaded and occupied half France would you agree that we would be fine to go on occupying France until the French agreed to negotiate to allow us to keep the half the country we had occupied.
On your logic once Germany has completed the conquest of France, Belgium, Norway etc. we had no moral right to continue the war and should have acknowledged the Germans had won by conquest fair and square and left well alone.
As to loser takes all obsession, the Jews were evicted from Palestine by the Romans in the first century AD and yet 1,800 years later they insisted on taking back the land from the then occupiers. Also not content with the state granted to them by UN Resolution 101 the launched a war of conquest in 1967 to extend the boundaries of the state to approximate to what they would have been before Hadrian

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

So stupid. Israel didn’t insist on taking it back, they took it back in a war they didn’t start that cost them 1% of their population. How this qualifies as loser-take-all is something only an anti Israel obsessive could put forward with a straight face.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Israel did start the war. That much is undeniable

Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

Well said. As Logan Roy might of said looking at these ignorant virtue signalling young students, they are not serious people. They are all captured by PD – Progressive Disorder – a powerful quasi religious mind virus and cult which has – incredibly – re-booted the crass racial hierarchical pyramids of the Nazis to put non whites at the top and Jews – still – to be stamped on at the bottom. They have the cold eyed deranged looks we can find in images of the fanatic Red Guards in China in 1968. They are dangerous people too. This is no passing fad.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Walter Marvell

Well said.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

The confusion surely arises from acting as though there are goodies and baddies in war. If you see war itself as the ultimate crime and recognise tha violence invites reprisal then the moral imperative is to stop any war as quickly as possible. No?
In that light, we can be clear that the Russians should not have invaded Ukraine and yet we can acknowledge that the behaviour of the Ukrainians (and NATO/the US) had certainly been provocative. Therefore, the West’s position should have been to call for an immediate ceasefire followed by a lot of diplomacy – rather than egging the Ukrainians on in a war that has already cost a horrible number of lives and which they will almost certainly lose eventually.
In Palestine, again, the attacks by Hamas were an atrocity – an acute spasm of horrific and indefensible violence but, again, that violence had been provoked by the chronic actions of the Israelis and, again, there wasn’t much of a peace process for the Palestinians to address their grievances in a non-violent manner. It was therefore predictable (though still indefensible) that violence would break out.
The proper question is not who is the most dispicable (there’s plenty of blame for everyone) but how to prevent a further round of bloodshed.
It was inevitable that Israel would respond to Hamas’ actions. But the role of the West shouldn’t be to cheer on the IDF, it should be to work towards a ceasefire and then a lasting peace.
No?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

You get peace when both sides want the same thing – or when both sides acknowledge that they have no hope of getting more from fighting on than they could get from peace. As long as one side believes that it can attack, improve its position, wait for the West to impose a ceasefire, and then prepare for the next push, there will be no peace.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Which side is that?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Iran.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

In the cases we have discussed it is the Palestinians and their organisations, and it is Russia. The first half would also hold for the Israeli settler movement: they believe they can get more land if they persevere, and they have nothing to lose since Israel will not get a peace even if they desist. Only in their case they do not rely on international pressure to prevent their opponents from retaliating.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

You’re suggesting that the Palestinians are improving their position. Are they? Not since 1948, not since 1967, not since 2006. The blockade on Gaza gets tighter and, as you concede, the settlers take more Palestinian land and bulldoze more houses. It is at least arguable, that Israel is the one that pushes as far as it can before it is compelled to stop and then consolidates. I’m not saying that’s the right framing. I’m saying that you can apply it to either depending on your taste.
And the Russians would, of course, say that their encirclement by NATO was a similar game of grandmother’s footsteps. Again, that’s not a Platonic truth, it’s a point of view
Which is why I say that it isn’t a helpful framing. But, if we agree that War itself is the moral catastrophe then we can stop arguing about who’s a goodie and who’s a baddie and figure out how to achieve peace.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Mine is actually a morally neutral argument. I’d happily agree that war is a moral catastrophe, but that only helps if we have practical way to avoid war. And the only simple way I know to avoid war is for one side to surrender.

The point is not that the Palestinians are improving their position. The point is that they think it is worth while to continue fighting. They believe that Palestine is theirs by right and they want it back – all of it. Quite understandable, actually. And they are not willing to settle for the status quo, or for some kind of land-for-peace deal because 1) they think that if they keep fighting ultimately they can do better, 2) because what they have now is so awful that even a long shot at winning is better than accepting what they have.

Israel also thinks it is worth while to continue fighting. Letting Hamas attack them and keep attacking them without fighting back means ever more rockets and more murders. And giving the Palestinians a state where they can move freely would be suicidal as long as the most likely outcome is that the Palestinians would simply keep fighting from a better starting position. Israelis would probably prefer getting all of Palestine without the Palestinians in it – if they could. Unlike the Palestinians, many Israelis would give up land for peace, but if a permanent peace is not on offer, fighting is better.

Regardless of who is the goodie and who is the baddie you are not going to get a peace until both sides accept that fighting for more is not worth it and they are better off resigning themselves to what they can get in peace. Stopping the fighting will not help if the causes remain and it just means that the whole thing will restart in a few years. And here nice and well-meaning people have to accept that pushing for a ceasefire will always help one side over the other, generally whichever side is currently ahead and in need of a pause to rearm. If you can rely on getting a ceasefire, the advantage will be to whoever attacks first, banks their gains before the opponent can hit back, and uses the inevitable ceasefire to rearm and prepare for their next attack. However much you dislike war, you cannot avoid the fact that at the moment a ceasefire in Ukraine would would be a gift to Russia, and a ceasefire in Palestine would be a gift to Hamas.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

An excellent strategic, amoral, assessment of the present reality. War is a tactic of last resort, when other methods fail. Terrorism is in fact an even more desperate tactic than warfare, being employed almost exclusively by people and groups that have decisively lost conflicts.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

War is not a tactic of last resort, it is always man made, deliberate and usually unnecessary.

Last edited 1 year ago by Carl Valentine
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

doesn’t even bother to question WHY the blockade on Gaza gets tighter. What a fair interlocutor.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Or you get peace when one side is annihilated

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

I appreciate the wisdom and moral coherence of your comments in this thread, sir. Violence — chronic or acute — does invite reprisal, and stopping any war as quickly as possible should be the moral imperative (though I doubt outsiders can do it in this instance, as hatred of the other seems part of Israeli and Palestinian identities).

Supposed “rules of engagement” that attempt to impose a patina of civility over the fundamental barbarity of war and rank-order atrocities are nonsensical. War is appalling by definition.

Last edited 1 year ago by Colorado UnHerd
George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago

Right, but you can accept that the Israelis aren’t going to take this lying down and still think that the role of Western capitals should be to try to minimise the scale of the reprisal – for practical as well as moral reasons.
The moral choices faced by, for example, Benjamin Netanyahu and Keir Starmer are different.

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

I do agree that Western capitals should encourage restraint from Israel, as Biden is doing.
But historically, I don’t see that Western efforts to end the larger conflict have borne any lasting fruit. .

Last edited 1 year ago by Colorado UnHerd
Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago

Wow, who down voted that? Is Ghenghis walking amongst us?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

No.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

You know how it happens, unfortunately.

Jane Awdry
Jane Awdry
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

The conflict between Palestine and Israel was ‘initiated’ over half a century ago. Hamas’s atrocity is the latest in a long long series of skirmishes, wars, disputes and ongoing conflict since 1948.
Their recent grotesque and unspeakable attack is part of a long drawn out battle of religious and national differences between Israel and the Palestinians. And it was always going to bring on the next terrible phase of this interminable and dreadful conflict.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

No one then said that the Russian people are not interchangeable with Putin and Kremlin or Wagner Group leadership? They advocated total, indiscriminate annihilation? Point me toward such views please.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  David McKee

So I’m to assume you can read minds, and know what everybody is REALLY thinking, irrespective of what has actually been said?
Everybody who says they’re uncomfortable with the amount of civilians killed by Israel’s retaliation to the terrorist attack is really just cleverly trying to disguise their antisemitism?
This appears to be exactly what the article was talking about. Rather than answer directly to what has actually been written down, everybody instead responds to things that have never been said, or tries to imply that the original comment is attempting to hide the writers true feelings. The joys of social media I suppose, too many people live on it and confuse it with real life

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Were you uncomfortable with the amount of civilians killed by an Islamic Jihad rocket which hit a Baptist hospital?
Are you uncomfortable with the virtual elimination of Christians from the Gaza strip?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Yes, but I didn’t see numerous articles and comments condoning them or attacking those who criticised them, unlike the air strikes

Last edited 1 year ago by Billy Bob
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

No, it is not mind-reading, it is a normal part of all human conversation. Anything you say you pass something new, and you communicate some background assumptions (‘When did you stop beating your wife?’). When you say something you need also to pay attention to what background assumptions you are showing, and how they match with those of the audience. If you have a lot to say about the horrors of Israeli bombardments but almost nothing to say about the horrors of Hamas massacre, it is a clear implication that you do not think that the latter is worth mentioning. If the conversation was between two Israeli settlers it just might be because it was clear to both that Hamas was unspeakably evil, so there was no point in saying it (as KS suggests). When you are talking to the world at large there is no mutual agreement on what is happening, so if you do not find it worth mentioning the horror of Hamas actions, it can only mean that you think they are not particularly important compared to the horror of Israel’s actions. And indeed that you are pushing exactly that view on others, only by implying it instead of saying it outright.

Of course Israel and Hamas have so strong and divergent background assumptions that even trying to be neutral and objective (as Guterres probably did) will be seen by both sides as a disgusting refusal to accept – and reflect – the reality of the situation.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Walter Marvell
Walter Marvell
1 year ago
Reply to  David McKee

Answer: 100% YES! This is the astonishing revelation! We had grasped the fact that the State backed identitarian ideology – the Progressive Disorder – has a pyramid of privilege which directed diabolical hatred and rage toward the defence of Nine Victim groups, with George Floyd at the apex. What we failed to comprehend was that they now feel so certain of their purity and virtue that they feel no need carry on masking or deflecting the way they also thirst to direct that diabolical rage to ATTACK THEIR enemies. And the Jews and the ‘Western Colonial Settler Genocidal’ State of Israel sits at the base of their sick mental pyramid. Mass Murder kidnap & rape? Whadever – they truly do not care.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  David McKee

I ask “where are you really from?” usually out of genuine curiosity, but often specifically in order to offend the woke.

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  David McKee

.

Last edited 1 year ago by Mike Michaels
Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
1 year ago

When Germany attacked England, England bombed German cities.  Civilians died by the tens of thousands. Was that wrong? Does that mean that England (gasp!) committed ‘war crimes’? No. Those deaths are on Germany, not England. Did Germany commit to ‘revenge’ or ‘days of rage’ against England after they lost WWII and much of their territory? No, they committed to peace, and rebuilt their country in peace and harmony. A lesson for all of us, I think …. Israel is more than not breaking any international agreements (not laws) regarding war. If Hamas continues as illegal combatants embedded within civilian populations and infrastructure then ALL deaths resulting in Gaza are the fault of Hamas and the other genocidal fanatics. The world knows that allowing the Arabs in Gaza to continue to get away with it’s atrocities is just a recipe for more atrocities. Israel must extirpate the genocidal fanatics from Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. If they are hiding under a baby carriage then they still must be eliminated.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samuel Ross
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

I think you are making a false equivalence here, by equating Hamas with Nazi Germany.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

Not at all. The anti-Semitic ideology is toxic and extreme in both cases. Westerners are incredibly naive about this. Unfortunately anti-Jewish (not just anti Israeli) ideology is widespread in the Arab world in general

https://pij.org/articles/345/the-antisemitism-of-hamas

Leonel SIlva Rocha
Leonel SIlva Rocha
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Mohammad was the ULTIMATE Antisemite, Thirteen Centuries before Hitler. There are a lot of awfully Naïve – or simply dishonest – people out there that seem to believe the Nazis invented Antisemitism…

james goater
james goater
1 year ago

Absolutely correct. Mohammad received his Antisemitism directly from God/Allah (via the Angel Gabriel, of course).
“Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) are the Jews” Koran, Sure 5, v.82.
One of the early Muslims’ first battles was Khaybar (628CE) which involved a massacre of Jews.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago

I could simply suggest you find an English translation of the Hamas Charter, but I’ll save you the trouble: here is an extract from Article 22 of the Hamas Charter that shows the comparison with Nazi Germany is completely apt:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

Now, who are these “enemies” who have, according to Hamas been behind the French Revolution,… the Freemasons,… World War I…? Not Israelis. Jews. The ideology of Hamas sees Jews qua Jews as the enemy, not Israelis. Like the Nazis, Hamas wants their land, and ultimately the world, to be Judenfrei.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

t*t for tat…
From the “Israel’s Decisive Plan”: The “two-state” model has led Israel to a dead end. It has brought a sense of despair of ending the conflict, and a turn to “managing” it as a cruel and eternal decree of fate. The alternative to this is a new readiness of Israeli society to win the conflict, rather than merely managing it—a victory founded on the understanding that there is no room in the Land of Israel for two conflicting national movements.
MK Bezalel Smotrich, an attorney, serves as vice-chairman of the Knesset 

Last edited 1 year ago by Danielle Treille
james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

A very powerful contribution which should be widely read. Thank you.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

So it’s ethnic cleaning you’re suggesting? And you’ll happily kill a baby in order to kill one terrorist? Truly disgusting sentiments in my opinion, no better than Hamas

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Why is it “ethnic cleansing” when the Israelis defend themselves, but “resistance” when Hamas burns mothers and babies alive? There is no moral equivalence between the actions of the IDF and the actions of Hamas.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

You can defend Palestinians, but there is no defence for Hamas. It needs to be eradicated.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It is technically called terrorist cleansing, not ethnic cleansing. Don’t dramatise the issue!

Roger Paton
Roger Paton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

England hasn’t had its own armed forces or government since 1707,learn some history.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

What an appalling comment, amazed how many fellow rednecks are up voting you!

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

There were voices even at the time said the Allied bombing of German cities and infrastructure was a crime, only since we won no one was interested in listening. I think the same was said of the Allied blockade of Germany in WW1 which resulted in an estimated 500,000 deaths for starvation. An interesting question is to what extent the Allied bombing caused some of the conditions that were later laid at the door of the Germans
As to the Germans being committed to peace, they had been completely and utterly destroyed an subject to ethnic cleansing on a massive scale that resulted in the estimated deaths of 750,000 German civilians. They did not have a choice. Any sign of rebellion would have been met with overwhelming force. Everyone knew this and so there was no support within the general population for violence against the occupation. If the militant do not have the support of the population they become impotent

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago

So the last time the world confronted an armed movement dedicated to wiping out the Jews, the population that movement arose in only accepted peace after being completely and utterly destroyed and subject to ethnic cleansing. Perhaps you haven’t noticed that to Israeli ears your view provides support for an extremely robust campaign to reduce Gaza to the same sort of smoking ruin as urban Germany in 1945.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

The movement was not dedicated to wiping out the Jews. That was never the objective. At the outset the Nazis were rather keen on a Jewish state in Palestine or on Madagascar.
The ethnic cleansing to which I refer was to drive German minorities out of Eastern Europe in to the new German state
I am aware and so is Israel that the only practical solution may be to reduce Gaza to the same sort of smoking ruin as urban Germany in 1945, but can they afford to take the risk or can they not afford to do so.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Wow. This knowitall know nothing actually says it wasn’t the nazi intention to exterminate jews. And the only ethnic cleansing he talks about in the same breath is that of GERMANS. Talk about making your bigotry plain.

Avro Lanc
Avro Lanc
1 year ago

In order to defeat Nazism it was necessary for the allies to launch a strategic bomber offensive that ultmiately killed hundreds of thousands of innocents – this was an appaling but necessary evil.
In order to defeat Hamas many innocent Palestinian lives will be lost. This is of course a tragedy, but a necessary one. Israel is in a fight for her survival. If Hamas lay down their weapons the war is over, if Israel lays down her weapons it is genocide.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
1 year ago

This article explains exactly why I have been largely avoiding any discussion around the current outbreak Gaza-Israel conflict beyond saying that what Hamas did on the 7th of October was an unspeakable atrocity.
I don’t understand why you have to “take sides”. It’s perfectly OK to have conflicting feelings about this and understand that in a complex conflict there are no moral certainties. It’s OK to think that mapping any part of this conflict onto the battle lines of other disagreements and using it as an instrument to whack your own enemy with on another field is a really bad plan (not to mention tasteless).
Mostly, I think it’s absolutely fine to remain silent about the entire thing, think your own thoughts without sharing them with the world…and feel quite sorry for the people whose job it is to say things in such situations (Exhibit A: Guterres).

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

No, one doesn’t have to take sides; unless you’re already on one side, and then you’re compelled to double-down. Personally, I hate bullies, liars, zealots, bigots and dictators, and I see them, and their enablers, on both sides of this conflict.

Peter D
Peter D
1 year ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

I’m with you on this Katherine. To be honest, it is the idiotic talk from the so called progressives that bothers me. Sure it is a distant second to the unspeakable atrocities committed by Hamas on the 7th; however most of these fools speaking up for Palestinians and by proxy Hamas, fail to grasp the reality of the situation.
Back in the 90’s I spent two and a half months in Israel and I saw first hand the absolute hatred that the Arabs had not only for the Israelis but also for Westerners. There were parts where if I were to venture into, I would not get the opportunity to learn from this mistake.
Removing all the civilians from the Gaza strip would make everyone BUT Hamas happy. The reality is that if Israel wanted to, it could flatten the Gaza strip and kill everyone there. The fact that even after this outrageously brutal attack, they still have not done so proves to me that they do not wish the Palestinians dead. If Hamas was in Israel’s position, and the Israelis were the ones confined to the Gaza strip; does anyone honestly think that Hamas would show any form of restraint?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter D

Is that where the bar is set now? Israel shouldn’t face criticism for the amount of civilians killed in it’s retaliation due to the fact it’s slightly better behaved than a terrorist group?

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You just don’t get it do you? Had Hamas not attacked Israel – actually an invasion of territory universally held to be part of Israel – in the cruellest possible way – then no Jews would have died and no Palestinians either. This lies entirely on the shoulders of the Hamas leadership and no one else.

Hamas have a choice. They could maybe not recognise Israel, but refrain from mounting endless rocket attacks and incursions building a huge network of military tunnels. They could even use the billions of dollars of aid they receive to improve Gaza’s he lamentable civilian infrastructure – which is their responsibility as the defacto government – and not Israel’s. We keep hearing about this “prison camp”. Israel already issues large numbers of work permits to Gazans and there would be no blockade. The only reason for the heavy restrictions on Gazan imports and exports is that Hamas constantly use them in very ingenious ways to kill Jews.

Were Israel not to respond to try and degrade the leadership of this murderous organisation (actually in any sensible use of the term a racist one and on the extreme Right, if that matters to you) then Hamas would be claiming a great victory and would double down on building more rockets and preparing for the next, greater assault.

Both in terms of ordinary morality and international law, killing, raping, torturing and abducting citizens is condemned. This is recognised to be entirely different situation from civilians being killed in a military operation where they are not being deliberately targeted. We might for example look at the bombing of Germany in World War 2 – not too many protests were held then. Of course it is also well known that Hamas, unlike the Germans, deliberately locate their operatives and military among civilians. They of course have almost as little concern for Palestinian lives as for Jewish.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You really are something else, as you blindly refuse to understand what is actually going on. The rules of war and the Geneva conventions apply to well-defined armies, not to enemy non-combatants. Hamas doesn’t fight like a regular army. hey use civilians, women and children as shields, and then cry foul when there is collateral damage. The Israelis, on the other hand, make every attempt to get Gazan civilians outside of harms way. Under those circumstances, every death occurring in Gaza is on Hamas, not on the Israelis and the IDF.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

You mean like encouraging them to flee to the south of Gaza, then bombing Khan Younis?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

So if a bank robbery went wrong, and the criminals were stuck inside with hostages, it would be fine in your eyes for the police to burn the bank down, killing the hostages in order to wipe out the criminals as well?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Another crap analogy.

Philip Cooper
Philip Cooper
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I, for one, would really like to hear your Plan B.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Terrorist must not only be defeated, but they must be totally eliminated. That is where the bar is set.

Last edited 1 year ago by Vijay Kant
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter D

But it doesn’t sound like you’re “with Katherine on this one” at all.

Peter D
Peter D
1 year ago

In my actual person to person circle, I am not talking about it at all. This forum is a totally different thing as it is all about this topic.
All I did was add an experience, and put forth a scenario with a question at the end. Interestingly enough, there was no explicit opinion offered and therefore still closely aligned with Katherine’s neutral stance.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter D

But Peter, the Israeli army IS flattening Gaza?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter D

If the situation was reversed and the Israelis were in Gaza and the Palestinians forcing them to live under the conditions they currently face, do you think the Israelis would be any less violent than the Palestinians?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Yes.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter D

Speaking up for the killing/suffering of Palestinians (men, women, children AND babies) does not equate defending Hamas and the atrocities they committed on October 7. And branding antisemitism on anyone pointing this out (even on Amnesty Int’l FFS!) trivialises it, antisemitism that is.

Last edited 1 year ago by Danielle Treille
Peter D
Peter D
1 year ago

What I think that you fail to grasp is that it is Hamas that use the Palestinians and human shields. They push the Israelis so hard and so far that they have to respond. Israeli kids have been held as hostages and they will not be released, the oldies yes, but not the kids. They are the future of the Jews and so they cannot be permitted to live. Women have been captured and raped and the footage been sent around the world. Would you sit by if this was a member of your family?
This whole event was so horrific that the Israelis have to respond.
Hamas knows that the Western Left is so warped that they will take the side of Hamas no matter what they do. When Hamas misfired a rocket and it hit the hospital, the Western media immediately believed everything that Hamas said. When the truth came out, it was quickly forgotten.
Understand this, Hamas want as many dead Palestinians as possible! They gain power and sympathy from their allies in the local area as well as in the West. The Western left leaning media in their refusal to condemn Hamas are implicitly responsible for egging on Hamas to continue with their bad behaviour to innocent civilians both Israeli and Palestinian.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter D

What I fail to grasp are the same comments rehashed ad nauseam. Excuse me while I go barf!

Last edited 1 year ago by Danielle Treille
Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
1 year ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

From The Onion, a well-known satirical newspaper in the United States, this commentary headline: “‘The Onion’ stands with Israel, because it seems like you get in less trouble for that.”
I like your reflection, though, that silence is best. The vehemence of commentary on this matter sometimes feels uncomfortably like a bloodless proxy war, just as dominated by partisan rhetoric as the real one.

Last edited 1 year ago by Colorado UnHerd
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Excellent post.

Malcolm Powell
Malcolm Powell
1 year ago

Time to revisit Samuel Huntington’s work on the clash of civilizations. The main ones are the West, Islam and China. Unfortunately, we in Europe have allowed millions of Muslims to settle in our midst and promote their cultural values which are opposite to ours

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Powell

As a Christian, it’s against my beliefs to enact “an eye for an eye” and therefore I oppose Israel’s bombardment of innocent civilians in Gaza, and their general treatment of Palestinians (Christian or Muslim). If Israel had taken a little time to grieve and consider its options, it would have been possible to build a consensus with its new Arab partners (Qatar, UAE, S. Arabia), and the West, to forge a united front against Hamas, but that initiative has been lost in the hot-headed, emotional response of Netanyahu and his supporters.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Malcolm Powell
Malcolm Powell
1 year ago

I very much doubt that. There would be a huge negative reaction from the Arab street to any attempt to work with israel

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Powell

Yet Arab states such as the UAE, Qatar and even Saudi Arabia have been slowly but steadily normalising relations with Israel (even if it’s hypocritically for their mutual economic benefit, and not to lobby for the Palestinians). You could almost believe that Hamas started to panic a bit and decided to upend all that.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Not Qatar

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago

“A wise plan, perhaps, were it not for the fact that, according to many, your silence now makes you a moral coward.”

It’s not necessarily moral cowardice to stay silent. For example, if in all good conscience you believe that you speaking publicly about a situation will only add fuel to it.

But it is moral hypocrisy if you are the sort of celebrity or activist who rushes to post accusations of fascism about every government policy you don’t like or accusations of genocide against every woman who wants to protect sex-based rights, but then suddenly go coy when babies are being murdered.

One might almost suspect that in their social media activity, such people are really more interested in the dopamine hit of self-righteous progressive validation than “being kind”.

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
1 year ago

You totally lost me there Kathleen. That kind of have it all both-sides-ism just means you can’t act in the world. This is basically a kind of liberal sophistry designed to demonstrate (perhaps to yourself) that you ‘are’ engaged, concerned and civic-minded whilst absolving you of any responsibility to weigh up the multi-dimensional moral hazards and practical trade-offs and actually do anything. It’s basically how people used to characterize being ‘academic’ (and especially being a philosopher) until academics began routinely to see everything through an intersectional/decolonizing lens and get exhilarated by rape-murder.
I love what you do in terms of the feminism of sex as a biological reality. And I appreciate the enormous price you have paid….and working in academia, I am paying a rapidly rising price myself. But this kind of reminds me of how little you have moved yourself. How little red-pilled….For instance, with regard to your own intellectual lynching, you don’t seem to be willing to acknowledge the extent feminism itself brought on the gender-war; that the sexual revolution and the divorce of sexuality from communitarian problems of family, elder care and child-rearing as well as place-bound community, and the unqualified reification of the free floating, self actualizing (Cartesian) self…. You want the kind of feminism that wrenches out of/frees women from this lattice of shared responsibility and elevates individual choice and freedom …. but this is exactly the same set of ideas that allowed a bunch of perverted men and deluded school girls to turn society upside down and start denying biological sex altogether…..A kind of gnosticism on steroids.
And why is this relevant to your ‘complicated’ stance on Israel/ Hamas ? Because, you are again selectively sustaining the habitual patterns of thought and political commitments of average left-liberal academics.
This final passage, is just awful:
Working out what someone is trying to say is a form of working out what she is trying to do — to do, that is, with her words. In the realm of action, sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference. Equally, sometimes what initially looks like a case of justifying a cold-blooded, indefensible murder — or a case of blaming the victims for what happened to them — is really something else as well”
Sometimes murder is murder; a revenge-crusade to bring down western civilization, is just that – exactly what it says on the pot or in this case in the Hamas corporate mission statement. Sometimes, eventually you have to take sides. And sometimes you have to recognize that you yourself have changed sides. You are no longer of the left. They don’t want you. You are no longer of mainstream academia. They don’t want you either.
There is no longer a comfortable middle ground with a little truth on either side, and requiring a meandering self-correcting oscillation. We are in a post-liberal zero sum era where, one way or another, the entire foundation of our liberal civilization – which is Judeo-Christian – will either collapse entirely, or will have to be rebuilt from the ground up. Liberalism was the somewhat corrosive icing on the cake. We are back with a mixing bowl. It’s going to be messy.

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago

‘“in the coming Gaza genocide, every act of armed resistance by Hamas and Hezbollah will have my support”. He went on: “what do you expect the Palestinians to do when the Israelis sweep in to kill tens of thousands and drive millions into the Sinai desert. Sing kumbaya to them?”’
So Palestinians = Hamas and Hamas=Palestinians?
And Palestinians do not want to be free from Hamas control?

And killing tens of thousands of Hamas terrorists is ‘genocide’, presumably like destroying Third Reich armies was genocide?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

If Israel was killing thousands of Hamas fighters nobody would be criticising them. They could hang them all from lampposts and the world (myself included) would cheer them on, but they’re not. Their bombing raids are instead killing thousands of civilians, most of whom are essentially locked in a large open prison with no means of escape due to Israel’s blockade

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Hamas are holding Palestinians hostage.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Hamas are holding 200+ Israelis hostage. And Israel has been holding millions of Palestinians hostage in Gaza and the West Bank, for some time. And yes, in some sense, Hamas are holding a gun to the heads of Gazan Palestinians.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

Since Israel left Gaza nearly 20 years ago, Gazans have been free to spend the billions in aid they have received on improving infrastructure (electricity, water, public works) and turning their territory into a seaside resort. Instead, they elected a bloodthirsty terrorist organization to run their government and use the citizens as human shields and cannon fodder.
Israel holding them “hostage” is ludicrous, since absolutely none of their fellow Arabs want anything to do with them.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You do realize that Gaza has two borders not one. Of course, they will be blockaded on the Israeli side: the Israelis are not simply going to allow terrorists in, and those Gazans who do come across the border on work permits, one can only assume have been carefully vetted. The second border is with Egypt, and clearly Egypt is blockading Gaza as well as they are not letting Gazans come across their border, despite the fact that the Gazans are fellow arabs. Ever wondered why that might be. Is it because the Gazans are just simple innocents, or are the vast majority supportive of and complicit with Hamas.

Paul T
Paul T
1 year ago

Guterres meant exactly what he said. He just didn’t expect anyone to call out his shameful victim-blaming.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul T

He’s right though, none of this has happened in a vacuum

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It happened in a context where Israel had to construct a border wall to try to prevent attacks and kidnappings on civilians, while Hamas saw no need to even attempt to build any kind of border wall, because they knew that Israel would not attack civilians they way that Hamas would attack civilians.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul T

Guterres wasn’t blaming the individual victims of the Hamas attack though, was he?

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago

In contemporary discourse, there is a subtle twist to Paul Grice’s notion of “conversational implicature”. I was in a Teams meeting recently where the host was a Yank and the speaker was Kiwi. Before getting down to business, both spent ages telling us how grateful they were to their respective “first nation” peoples for allowing them to reside in the USA and NZ. Fair enough, but it was all very formulaic: I bet they trot out the same words at every opportunity. Now this creates a climate in which a person choosing not to mouth the formula is under suspicion of being a white supremacist, even though he/she was not “intentionally implying some meaning not literally present in [his/her] choice of words”.
Attitudes on Gaza were entrenched before 7 October. As another Unherd contributor pointed out, you can predict, with high accuracy, a person’s attitude to Gaza from his/her stances on other political issues. I suspect that few have switched sides as a consequence of all the recent verbiage. What is written on Gaza is intended to be neither informative nor presuasive. It is intended to make like-minded people feel a bit more comfortable taking a particular side.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Kwasi-Modo
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

The Teams exchange you just mentioned sounds like a performance piece. With apologies to William Shakespeare, such examples sound like a case of “the lady doth protest too little, methinks”.

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago

Yes, that was just how it felt at the time.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

Was this a work meeting Peter? If so, it sounds horrendous. Hopefully not coming to a workplace near me! (Although in Britain it would have to take the form of recent immigrants thanking the natives for their hospitality, so unlikely to happen).

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

It was a work meeting: healthcare and IGO professionals.
> Hopefully not coming to a workplace near me!
Just you wait. This is the future.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Kwasi-Modo
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

For Healthcare and IGO professionals it seems the battle is lost. It’s when it reaches finance that we know the war is lost too.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Mealy mouthed article. Hamas are barbarians and I stand with Israel. There is no comparison.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Would Britain have been justified in carpet bombing the Republican areas of Belfast in retaliation for the IRAs bombing campaign? If not why do you feel it’s fine for Israel to do the same?

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

A stupid analogy.
The IRA did not plan to exterminate the English, one and all, and the IRA were not eliminating Protestants from N. Ireland in the way Palestinian Christians in Gaza have been virtually eliminated.

El Uro
El Uro
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

If IRA bombing campaign would have look like HAMAS massacre and rockets shelling – definitely

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  El Uro

If the IRA had been elected into power in Republican districts of Northern Ireland, and then were using Catholics as human shields after taking babies and children and 85 year olds hostage , then definitely troops would have to be sent in.
But, of course, the IRA would never have done that. Because there are terrorist groups and there is Hamas.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steven Carr
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Troops were sent in – have you not heard of “The Troubles”?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Israel is given a free pass because of Western guilt about the holocaust, and US interests in keeping a counter-weight to Iran, and Arab Islamists in the Middle-East.

O'Driscoll
O'Driscoll
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Perhaps, if the IRA had raped Protestants, slaughtered their children one at a time, before deciding it would be better to do it by a mass burning, taken hundreds of hostages, held a mass armed invasion of Glastonbury shooting dead dozens of young people who had gathered for a peace concert, there would have been a pretty robust response. Perhaps they would have warned innocent civilians to move South while they removed the IRA from Belfast by any means necessary.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Hamas are terrorists, and murderers. But I don’t stand with Israel taking revenge on the innocent civilian Palestinians in Gaza by killing thousands of them.

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago

Peoople keep referring to ‘innocent’ Palestinians. Are you innocent if you support and applaud the actions of the ‘guilty’ Palestinians. Are people in Britain innocent in applauding terrorist atrocities by proscribed organisations? Take away the Palestinian flags, replace them with swastikas, and would we (and especially the Met) be equally relaxed? Goodness knows, the Met were active enough when someone was foolish enough to display a flag with the cross of St George on it!

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

The thousands of babies and children being bombed every night are pretty innocent: do you agree or not?

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago

Sorry – that’s a poor attempt to avoid engaging with the point I was making.
In the same vein, were the babies beheaded by Hamas innocent? Undoubtedly. Were the babies and children in Dresden innocent?
I think the fact that Hamas use their own people – including infants – as human shields puts a lot of the blame on them. Move the children out, hand over the hostages and surrender the killers and there would be no bombing.
If only it were that simple – but it’s not.
What is simple, though, is that describing complicit fellow travellers as ‘innocent’ is humbug.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Is every Briton and American responsible for the deaths caused as a result of the Iraq war, seeing as they voted in those governments?

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

Is Israel taking ‘revenge’ or are they trying to clear out some 30,000 terrorist/militants with warehouse loads of munitions, intended solely to kill them, which are cynically, intentionally buried and imbedded throughout urban areas, with no regard to their own people, except as human shields, by a group that has just slaughtered them, again, and who publicly and officially denies their very right to be (alive)?

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Yes, in my opinion it’s revenge, which is a dish best served cold, and not by indiscriminate bombing of civilians, including a large number of babies and children.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

I believe the EDF give warning of when they are going to bomb a building/area, to allow citizens to evacuate (includes North Gaza generally, and specific blocks within), and yet Hamas encourages Palestinians to stay – with friends like that…..

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

I really hope you are wrong,. The EDF is my electricity supplier 😉

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Oops!

Still you might want to switch to SSE, just in case….

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago

Kathleen, people claiming to support the Palestinians celebrated the atrocities committed by Hamas. They cheered.In public.
I have never seen a rally held by Jewish people cheering for the mass rapes or murders of Palestinian civilians.
One of these things is not like the other.
I’m sure you mean well, but I’m afraid you are dangerously naive on this issue.
The Palestinians, not just Hamas, despise the Jewish people. If given the chance, Hamas will do to every Jewish person in Israel what they did on October 7. And at least half of all Palestinians would cheer them on.
Palestinians do not just hate the Israeli government; they hate the Jews. This may offend your sensibilities, but it is true.
The goal of the Israeli government is not “interpretative accuracy”; the goal of the Israeli government is to prevent a second Holocaust within a hundred years from being committed against the Jewish people.
There are 16 million Jewish people in the world compared to 420 million Arabs.
There are 22 Arab nations filled with hundreds of millions of people
The Jewish people have one tiny country, surrounded by sworn enemies.
Israeli civilians just suffered the biggest act of genocidal violence since the Holocaust.
And the response to that, from hundreds of thousands of “Free Palestine” supporters, was “Hooray!”
You wrote: “In the realm of action, sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference. ”
I’m going to be generous with my interpretation and not accuse you of making this statement in reference to the horrors committed by Hamas: gang rapes, maiming, torturing, and burning alive of innocent civilians, including babies bound with wire to their mothers.
I’m going to assume you condemn these atrocities is the strongest way possible.
I won’t assume when you wrote “sometimes it is really something else” that you were claiming the sadistic slaughter committed by Hamas was anything other than an atrocity.
But your choice of words is unfortunate, and possibly even a little insensitive.
They cheered Kathleen. They tore down posters of missing Jewish babies and toddlers.
As far as Israel’s military response to this genocidal hatred, “sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference.”
Try to tell the difference, Kathleen. 
The Jewish Israelis are living next door to millions of people who elected a terrorist group to lead them, who explicitly put their intention to exterminate the Jews in their charter, and who loathe Jewish people every bit as much as the Nazis did.
If someone says “I want to kill you!” I may not believe they mean it.
But if someone says “I want to kill you” while shooting a gun at me, I’d be an idiot not to.
It was suicidal for the Jews not to take the Nazi’s at their word in the 1930’s and it would be suicidal for the Jews not to take the Palestinians and their allies at their word today.
Never Again.
Long Live Israel.

Colorado UnHerd
Colorado UnHerd
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Groups such as Hamas are not unique to this time, place nor people; they arise as opportunistic malignancies when conditions are right.
I don’t think Kathleen Stock is naive about much. I do think it’s naive to believe Israel can eradicate Hamas (at even the greatest cost to civilian lives). As with cancer, it’s likely metastacized cells will remain and eventually reassert. And even if this particular cancer were eliminated, another will arise as long as the susceptible body — the untenable manner in which Israelis and Palestinians co-exist — persists. Addressing that underlying situation — restoring the body to resilience — is what’s needed and what admittedly has thus far seemed impossible.
I read recently that the average age in Israel is 30; in Gaza, 21. I shudder to imagine all the testosterone-fueled young men on both sides being radicalized by witnessing the violence done to their peoples, virtually ensuring another generation of conflict.

Last edited 1 year ago by Colorado UnHerd
Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago

The Hamas leadership are holding 2 million Arabs as hostages and human shields as pàrt of their stated ambition to kill every non-Jew living in ‘occupied territory’.
Until Gaza is free from Hamas control, Arabs living in the Gaza strip will live under a brutal dictatorship.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

And the solution is for Israel to bomb those hostages and human shields, and hope to kill a few terrorists as “collateral damage”? That’s a collective punishment and illegal under the Geneva convention, Article 33. Not to mention cutting off supplies essential to life. There is no moral or legal justification for the response Israel has taken.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

It’s convenient to separate Hamas from the rest of the people living in Gaza, just as it was expedient for Germans, after WWII, to say, ” Yes, I belonged to the Nazi party, but who didn’t?…it doesn’t mean I was a Nazi. “, or ” Yes, we appropriated [stole] all of the furniture and personal belongings from our Jewish neighbors apartments when they were taken away…but, we didn’t know they were going to concentration camps “ or ” My husband worked for the Gestapo, but he told me they never hurt a single Jew “ or ” Nobody knew that we were exterminating Jews, we thought they were being taken to camps for their own safety “.
When a member of Hamas is hiding behind a woman and child to keep from getting killed…it’s his own wife and child that he’s using as a shield. Think about that. When Hamas is launching rockets from the roof of an apartment building in the center of Gaza City, it’s the same apartment building that their family and neighbors live in…in which case they’re selfishly, cowardly hoping that it will be a deterrent against retaliation for the butchering of 1,400 Israeli civilians. What kind of man does that? It’s not a deterrent…it’s collateral damage in a time of war.
Hamas was democratically elected under the watchful eyes of the United Nations in 2006, and allowed to take control of Gaza even though they were considered an international terrorist organization. In America we always say, ” Elections have consequences “.
Lastly, lesbian Kathleen Stock can walk down the streets of Tel Aviv holding her lover’s hand, stopping to kiss her without hesitation, then party the night away with her girlfriend (or wife) in a gay bar. I can’t imagine what would happen to her if she tried that in Gaza City…it’s too ghastly to contemplate.

Last edited 1 year ago by Abe Stamm
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

I don’t know why KS bothered to write this. It contributes precisely nothing. I picture her literally straddling a plank resting on a ball as she teeters back and forth to keep her balance.
Some things are obvious. Analysis is no longer necessary. Watching paid pro-terrorists marching through he cities of the Western World in the style of BLM goes a long way to explain why KS and too many others waste time with articles interpreting what others mean by their words.
The old adage I the clearest one: when they tell you who they are, believe them.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

What you’re really saying is: she doesn’t agree with you.

Shrunken Genepool
Shrunken Genepool
1 year ago

Not at all. What she is saying is that Katharine is not saying anything at all – just wringing her hands. KS says ‘its complicated’ and then stops short of doing anything

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

None of us can do anything, can we? Other than grieve for the victims and pray for a ceasefire and a solution. Alternatively we can debate and discuss and tease apart the complexities – it helps to mature our understanding. Much better than left-wing this, or right-wing that. Maybe I’m soft in the head, but I weep inside when I hear of innocent people being killed by terrorists or missiles.

Last edited 1 year ago by William Edward Henry Appleby
John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago

Yes we can do something. We can call out the hypocrisy of the perpetrators, denoince the death cult they follow, apply the law to their apologists and withhold funds from their organisations. Saying ‘Oh poor me, I’m so upset’ is feeble, pathetic and contemptible.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago

Steel-manning, not straw-manning, your opponent is always a better route to a productive debate. Even if the former term has only come into common usage fairly recently, it is the regular practice of philosophers but lamentably absent in the vast majority of political discourse, where ‘winning’ is the goal and hopefully discrediting your opponent along the way. As noted here, X/Twitter, the political public square, is unique in its unsuitability for productive political debate.
Thank you for this fine and neutral piece, KS.
[I wrote my own take on the online discourse in multiple spaces over the past couple of weeks, though it is really intended for a particular audience. It touches on some of the same issues.]

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Isn’t steel-manning just another straw-man attack? After all, it’s just distorting the original claim in order to discredit it.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago

No to the first. I wouldn’t call it ‘distorting’, more the removal of cheap point-scoring, and trying to find something useful or salvageable in the opponent’s position. I think people understand the term in different ways though.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Ok, thanks.

Derek Smith
Derek Smith
1 year ago

Steel-manning is the opposite of straw-manning. It is to understand and state correctly the argument that your opponent makes. It is the embodiment of ‘seek first to understand, before being understood’.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Derek Smith

Thank you.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

A down-vote for asking for clarification?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Thanks for an informative exposition of our views. Regrettably I have to say that the following quote leaves me with only two alternatives:

They’re so close to enslaving us forever with CBDCs and biometric digital IDs; they know we’re on to them now.

a) We live in a world that is saturated with rival conspiracies, where all sources of information are full of deliberate lies, and where trying to reach some kind objective world-view is not only hopeless but misguided. And where ‘they‘ are out to get us. All you can do is to select a view at random and pick the information that fits.
b) You believe in a) but you are wrong – in which case your words will be dominated by your random beliefs, however sincerely you try to be objective.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I’m not making any claims to objectivity on my goals, nor are they restricted to people here. They’re more directed at another constituency altogether, those who believe, as I do, that CBDCs and biometric ID are the doorway to a social credit system, Law 3.0 and tyranny. The document is a plea to those people.
You are perfectly at liberty to say that you believe that that will not happen, and therefore, the breakdown of the informal ‘libertarian’ alliance is not an issue.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Actually, a fully computerised surveillance society does sound very problematical. You may well have a point there. Unfortunately your wording (“They’re so close to enslaving us forever“) puts you so far down the rabbit hole that I have to stop listening. If that kind of talk is the common currency of your ‘informal libertarian alliance’ I will not mourn its passing.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

That’s a valid objection. My phrasing is a bit excessive there, and I wouldn’t say it is representative of the whole. It was late when I finished it, and I was very tired.
When I think of the Chinese social credit system, my thoughts frequently stray to the Uighurs, whom some human rights bodies have described as victims of modern slavery and who were also the first victims of compulsory biometric digital ID. This is detailed in Josh Chin & Lisa Lin’s Surveillance State: Inside China’s Quest to Launch a New Era of Social Control.
Varoufakis believes we are already cloud serfs. So, serfdom might be a better term than slavery. However described, it is a world that every fibre of my being rails against being part of.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nik Jewell
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Whatever disagreements we may have, I shall certainly keep reading you – and occasionally answering back. Like it or not, you are too good to dismiss 😉

Last edited 1 year ago by Rasmus Fogh
Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 year ago

“Alongside the terrible war that started on 7 October”
Even this is wrong.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
1 year ago

Kathleen Stock’s article begins promisingly, then seems to run out of courage, and ends up hiding behind an analysis of other people’s arguments instead of making one of her own. Why are so few UnHerd writers prepared to be courageous on this issue?
It’s not as if the issue is new – we’ve all had decades to work out our views on Israel and Palestine. So why the conspicuous lack of courage in articulating a centrist position on the Israel-Gaza war, the only position that decent people can surely hold – that the spiral of extremism and violence in the region is appalling, both sides have contributed to it, and both sides must be pressured by the international community to de-escalate?
I think the answer is this: UnHerd has run many articles in recent years pooh-poohing the idea of centrism. Remember the ‘Centrist Dads’ jokes? Hilarious. Well, on Israel-Palestine, it turns out that being a Centrist and not a war-monger is the only decent position a thinking human being can possibly hold.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Vern Hughes

Amen to that!

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago

This is a great example of how academics overthink things. Most people of good will know that people who take a black and white view of an issue are probably not acting in good faith and should be ignored. Social media has unleashed a lot of performative discourse that has revealed how stupid and mean people can be. I prefer to read and pay attention to people who see gray. Stock’s naval gazing may be interesting but isn’t very useful.
Hamas unleashed unspeakable violence, committing heinous atrocities, and Israel’s response is going to be brutal. Innocents will die and everyone will say how terrible it is, but again and again humans revel in this sort of madness.
Both in Gaza and in Ukraine the only way to prevent senseless death is to avoid war to begin with. No one was interested in negotiating a deal to prevent Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and for 75 years the Israelis and Palestinians have not found a way to make peace. This is why people are dying. What philosophers need to explain is why we never learn.

Geoff W
Geoff W
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Amen to your first paragraph (and I’m an academic myself).
People who debate the Israelis vs. the Palestinians, and people who make comments on social media, often debate and comment in bad faith. Who knew?

laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago

The point being missed here is that simple human decency dictates that one doesn’t start throwing around moral blame while the blood is still so fresh. There are wounded survivors and the families of the dead and missing on both sides who are going through actual Hell right now. We, sitting at home in front of our computers, can suppress our emotions for a few weeks without causing any internal damage. There will be plenty of time to cast our aspersions later.

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago

Kathleen, people claiming to support the Palestinians celebrated the atrocities committed by Hamas. They cheered.In public.
I have never seen a rally held by Jewish people cheering for the mass rapes or murders of Palestinian civilians.
One of these things is not like the other.
I’m sure you mean well, but I’m afraid you are dangerously naive on this issue.
The Palestinians, not just Hamas, despise the Jewish people. If given the chance, Hamas will do to every Jewish person in Israel what they did on October 7. And at least half of all Palestinians would cheer them on.
Palestinians do not just hate the Israeli government; they hate the Jews. This may offend your sensibilities, but it is true.
The goal of the Israeli government is not “interpretative accuracy”; the goal of the Israeli government is to prevent a second Holocaust within a hundred years from being committed against the Jewish people.
There are 16 million Jewish people in the world compared to 420 million Arabs.
There are 22 Arab nations filled with hundreds of millions of people
The Jewish people have one tiny country, surrounded by sworn enemies.
Israeli civilians just suffered the biggest act of genocidal violence since the Holocaust.
And the response to that, from hundreds of thousands of “Free Palestine” supporters, was “Hooray!”
You wrote: “In the realm of action, sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference. ”
I’m going to be generous with my interpretation and not accuse you of making this statement in reference to the horrors committed by Hamas: gang rapes, maiming, torturing, and burning alive of innocent civilians, including babies bound with wire to their mothers.
I’m going to assume you condemn these atrocities is the strongest way possible.
I won’t assume when you wrote “sometimes it is really something else” that you were claiming the sadistic slaughter committed by Hamas was anything other than an atrocity.
But your choice of words is unfortunate, and possibly even a little insensitive.
They cheered Kathleen. They tore down posters of missing Jewish babies and toddlers.
As far as Israel’s military response to this genocidal hatred, “sometimes what initially looks like cold-blooded, indefensible murder is just what it seems to be. But sometimes it is really something else — and it’s important that we try to tell the difference.”
Try to tell the difference, Kathleen. 
The Jewish Israelis are living next door to millions of people who elected a terrorist group to lead them, who explicitly put their intention to exterminate the Jews in their charter, and who loathe Jewish people every bit as much as the Nazis did.
If someone says “I want to kill you!” I may not believe they mean it.
But if someone says “I want to kill you” while shooting a gun at me, I’d be an idiot not to.
It was suicidal for the Jews not to take the Nazi’s at their word in the 1930’s and it would be suicidal for the Jews not to take the Palestinians and their allies at their word today.
Never Again.
Long Live Israel.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

Is the repeated use of she revenge for all the historical use of he? For me, it distracts from the main points and the emphasis is on the petty. Why not just use the plural when making general points? Surely, if a point applies to all, it is more apt to use the plural and if the implication is that the use of he for millennia was morally wrong then the use of she is equally morally wrong. I know in the 90s, amongst English speaking philosophers, using she was a way of demonstrating one was morally ‘right on’, one of the good guys, morally and intellectually superior. I found it irritating but then I have never felt excluded by the term mankind and I believe in the existence of both human nature and the capacity for evil in both sexes.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Sue Sims
Sue Sims
1 year ago

Yes, indeed. I read Kathleen Stock’s piece with interest, but also with irritation, because I happen to know (and have taught) Grice’s theory of conversational implicature, and in the essay in which Paul Grice first proposed it, all the pronouns are masculine – as one would expect when he wrote (1975), when we all understood that the generic masculine included the feminine. (You can read the essay if you wish: it’s online at https://www.ucl.ac.uk/ls/studypacks/Grice-Logic.pdf) To change everything to the feminine is itself making a point – irrelevant to the topic under discussion, so annoying.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Sims

The problem is Kathleen Stock considers herself a feminist philosopher which is an oxymoron as the aim of feminism is to promote women (propagandise) and philosophers are supposed to seek truth, investigate all arguments as objectively as possible using the tools they have acquired through studying philosophy. By switching from he to she Kathleen Stock is operating in accordance with her feminist agenda. Feminists are not interested in equality which is why she is not content with switching from the singular to the plural. As Jordan Peterson has pointed out, feminist activists have no interest in ensuring women are equally represented in all occupations, only the most desirable. They do not campaign for greater representation of women in dangerous jobs however well paid but they do campaign against the ‘glass ceiling’ and the lack of women in boardrooms. I find her need to let everyone know she is a lesbian tiresome. Douglas Murray manages to engage in extremely intelligent political debate without going on about being gay. She may have clashed with part of the left but she retains victim mentality, she views both women and lesbians as victims of prejudice and she perceives herself as one of their champions. She is lauded by some but I think she is an accidental outcast. I suspect her treatment at Sussex University came as an incredible shock as she had chosen a lifestyle which until relatively recently placed her in the untouchable elite at Sussex. According to leftist victim ideology, those higher up in the victim hierarchy cannot be guilty of any offence against those lower down. Thus it is impossible for non whites to be racist towards whites. Leftists consider Jews to be very privileged whites, the top of the privilege hierarchy or the bottom of the victim hierarchy despite the Holocaust, and Palestinians to be close to or at the top of the victim hierarchy, consequently, regardless of how brutally the Palestinians treat the Jews, the Palestinians will still be the victims and not responsible for their actions. The Left blaming the Jews for the attacks by Hamas is entirely in keeping with their ideological position. If a woman murders her husband, the go to defence is she was actually the victim, he had done something to deserve it. The same argument has been used against the Jews.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Darren Turner
Darren Turner
1 year ago

Expecting war to end between Israel and it’s Arab neighbors by some sudden mutual enlightenment and mindshift to them simultaneously becoming nations populated by John Lennons is not going to happen. I feel therefore we need Real Politik. For me that is a two state solution after another Middle East war where Israel secures itself again supported overwhelmingly by the USA and NATO as it did in previous wars in 1948, 67 and 73 and then the relatively huge sparsely populated countries like Jordan and Eastern Egypt partition off some of their land for a Palestinian state.
Ultimately from my Real Politik point of view this will sputter on until a decisive war is fought and won but then differently this time a clear peace settlement afterwards such as happened in West Germany in 1945 with a Marshall plan to financially secure it and establish peace and settle most grievances is administered.
My support is clear in such a binary event as war. It is for Israel to win and secure a settlement on their terms. They are a western democracy with infinitely better records on a legal system and standing for women, homosexuals etc. This is not the case in any surrounding Arab country. A secure democratic Israel with a separate sovereign Palestine established along the Mediterranean coast from the Israel border down to the Suez canal/ Nile Delta, plus possibly some of South West Jordan and the Egypt/Jordan Sinai border seems fair and sustainable to me. Sinai was under Israeli control after it’s victory against the aggressive attack from Egypt in 1967 and it is undeveloped by Egypt who have a massive country as it is without it.
If we continue to try and tie the hands of Israel from carrying out a full on military response to sort out Hamas, probably Hezbollah, and who knows even Iran with US and NATO assistance and we stumble on as is, it only means continued disgruntlement for the Palestinians and continued despair and terrible quality of life, and continued Iranian funded and inspired violence until sooner or later Iran starts lobbing Nukes (probably by a proxy group).
IMO It’s time to sort the Middle East out now before doing so risks genuine Armageddon. There isn’t going to suddenly be a collective pacification of nations and cultures so diametrically opposed without a war and following determined Marshall type reconstruction plan.
Israel is a democracy and given the guarantee of peace with it’s neighbours can be a beacon for democratic and secular change in the Middle East over the coming decades.

Andrew Holmes
Andrew Holmes
1 year ago

In a partial restatement of Leigh A’s comment there is sensibly a time for statements. A discussion of the beauties of Japanese culture in the immediate time of Pearl Harbor, or Bill Maher’s comment that the perpetrators of 9/11 were actually really brave in their murder of thousands, is either stupid or malicious.
The UN Secretary General richly deserves condemnation. There is no ‘but on the other hand’ in such circumstances that that doesn’t imply some level excusing the actions.

Susan Scheid
Susan Scheid
1 year ago

On all kinds of topics, online and off, there is a lot of jumping to conclusions. I’ve taken to saying to friends, in the course of written exchanges, “I may not think what you think I think. Let’s discuss this in person.” Sometimes that gets past the roadblock, sometimes not. Though, on the whole, I don’t think we humans are all that rational in our judgments—and seeing nuance is not our forte—I greatly appreciate Dr. Stock’s unstinting efforts to get us to think better.

mike otter
mike otter
1 year ago

This is kind of the point of a proxy war, lefties applaud Hamas’ atrocities committed as part of their struggle to exist and decry Israels atrocities committed for the same reasons. “Right wingers” traditionally take the opposite stance. Both support closed, totalitarian ideologies. The tiny % in the middle who favour an open knowledge based approach are drowned out. I expect Ms Stock already knows this after her fracas with the trans lot. More blood will need to be shed before the grown-ups re-assert control, hopefully with some sort of “Nuremburg Trial” set up. I want to say to fellow grown-ups that whilst the situation is grim because there will be blood and death its by no means lost – i doubt any military alliance made up of Putin, Trans, DAESH and Hamas will last the course.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

Ms Stock is to a great extent of the left. She is just a casualty of leftist infighting. She has sent a message to the left that she is still with them by using she instead of he for the universal individual, in the article.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  mike otter

Ms Stock is very much of the left, she claims the left (particularly Guardian readers) listen to her because she is a lesbian and has retained her local accent, which would have previously indicated her working class background (she is not working class but it allows the deluded to believe they are championing the working class). The BBC prefers their presenters to have local accents and as a consequence the presenters are inclined to exaggerate their accents, Vernon Kay for example (I much preferred the mellifluous tones of Terry Wogan and Ken Bruce). Similarly, Meghan Markle uses fake tan and makeup to darken her skin colour to support her claims she is a victim of racism and signal her support of BLM. Kathleen Stock cannot maintain her relationship with the left and argue in favour of Israel. I suspect this is a pivotal moment in history: the tactics of the left are being exposed: using those society is expected to protect as a shield: the headquarters of Hamas appear to be below a hospital.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
1 year ago

my comment keeps disappearing.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Spooky !
Might just be the time of year though.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

It seems they re-appeared, Lazarus-like, but unfortunately more than once; can the duplicates be deleted?

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

It means someone dislikes what you have written and wants it removed so he/she has flagged it so it at least temporarily disappears. It is a tactic used by a group of Unherd readers. I have had some comments flagged so many times that I might as well have not bothered post; for the group a success.

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

“If she then omits something that you expected her to say — for instance, that Hamas’s treatment of Israeli civilians in the past few weeks is a disgusting breach of their human rights — perhaps the most straightforward explanation is that she doesn’t believe it herself, and so doesn’t intend to get you to believe it either. But it might also be because she thinks you already believe this, so that it would be uneconomical and perhaps even irrelevant to tell you again. The latter explanation looks unlikely in the case of the artists’ letter, but is not completely out of the question.”

Extremely unlikely though, the second possibility. We live in a world where exobitant defences of one’s own moral alibi in any given debate is now the norm, so it is overwhelmingly likely that such an omission is due to the first reason.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
1 year ago

The UN Sec-General repeated the words of the Palestinian PM to the BBC a few nights before who said that the Hamas attack “did not happen in a vacuum”.
In other words, the UN is a thought leader for left-liberals and this is why a conservative Israeli regime will ignore it completely when dealing with a foe that lies on the neo-N-zi end of the political spectrum.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

The dilemmas over language, meaning and context just further underpin how intractable this problem has been for over a century.
For me a fundamental dilemma is the conflation of Hamas with the entire Palestinian people. (I’m just assuming all of us condemn unequivocally what they did on 7/10). To what degree a population they allegedly lead shares in blood-debt that may arise? Some may be strong supporters or have cheered/smiled when they heard what had been done to Israelis. Some may have wanted to condemn in strongest terms but couldn’t as felt unsafe to do so. What we don’t know is the degrees within the Palestinian population one might associate these reactions. Almost certainly most knew what would follow though.
Historically we know Germans who may have bravely resisted the Nazi still got killed in Bomber command firestorms. But so did many who smiled when their Jewish neighbour was carted away from their street even if they never entirely appreciated what was then to happen to that ex neighbour. But children? Aren’t they innocent regardless of view of parent? The Bomber command justification was it was Total War and other options to hit the Nazi war machine were limited. The IDF have more choices, even if they still face some similarities and thus the moral questions are different.
An issue for elements of the Arab world is why do they not help negotiate the removal of Hamas – safe passage elsewhere and the destruction of the tunnels replaced with a peacekeeping administration they potentially take on responsibility for. Of course Israel may feel it can’t agree to this, but would not be surprised if some are trying to find a resolution along these lines.
Of course whilst we debate these dilemmas many politicians have to make decisions in real time with multiple different forces exerting pressure upon them. Blessed are the peacemakers as someone once said.

John Davis
John Davis
1 year ago

One point worth making is that we do not use the same yardstick to measure the behaviour of Western democracies and terrorist organizations. So comparing the morality of their actions is pointless. The civilized world expects Israel will behave better than Hamas, for the same reason we expect a civilized adult to behave more responsibly than a young child or an animal.

Samantha Stevens
Samantha Stevens
1 year ago
Reply to  John Davis

I agree. This does seem to be an inherently unfair part of this entire argument/discussion.

El Uro
El Uro
1 year ago

Things should be called as they are:
wokeism == communism == fascism. And I don’t know what can stop them

Samantha Stevens
Samantha Stevens
1 year ago

I absolutely adore Kathleen Stock, and she has so many insightful points here. However, I think her error is that she is giving most people too much credit for nuance and depth.
Most people these days so seem to think very simplistically in binary terms of good/evil, black/white, right/wrong. They are not leaving things out of their statements. They really think one side is all good, and the other is all bad. This is why our politics is so polarized. People refuse to see that most things in life are incredibly complicated – that’s why they are so hard to solve….abortion, the endless Israeli-Palestinian conflict, homelessness, world hunger, poverty.
Tribalism is truly killing discourse, progress, and society. People are fueled with hatred from living in their social media algorithm echo chambers. They don’t listen, never doubt themselves, refuse to read anything in depth. They are dumber, louder, and meaner.
This article is a plea for charity and patience and calm. We desperately need all three. I just don’t know if most people are capable of any.

Cheryl Zacharias
Cheryl Zacharias
1 year ago

One thing that bothers me about so many comments below is they are exactly a case in point of KS’s article. The current zeitgeist is that you must choose a side or you are on the side of the enemy, even if you abhor all if the violence, or are simply trying to think clearly and with nuance about the complexity of the whole situation. Since when is it morally reprehensible to refrain from taking sides in a bloody conflict? Have we forgotten that no side can ever be innocent in war? It is war we are talking about after all! It is a perennial human problem. The only simple answer I can see is to be against all of the brutal violence regardless of what side it is coming from, without comparison of numbers or “level of inhumanity.” And to be for all the victims of that violence, regardless of arguments for the degrees to which they may “deserve” it. Does this is solve the problem? Of course not. But to me it seems a better starting point for approaching practical solutions than the side-taking and justifications and blame throwing that has taken over theglobal conversation which can only deepen the entrenchment of enmity and prolong the suffering and destruction indefinitely.

simon lamb
simon lamb
1 year ago

I have just one thing to say: make the Hamas go-pro videos freely available to adults worldwide and let people make their own minds up as to whether what they did can be justified in any circumstances, however wronged Palestinians may feel they have been. I suspect the horror they will invoke will silence a great many Hamas apologists, and terminate the need for any further discourse about justification among human beings with even a modicum of conscience

Last edited 1 year ago by simon lamb
Phil Re
Phil Re
1 year ago

I see that Kathleen Stock is attempting to be a voice of reason, which she usually does well, and which we need more of.

But there’s no room for mincing words here. Though her intent may have been good, her failure to think through the significance of Guterres’s remarks is simply egregious. I’m having trouble understanding how she could have gotten things so profoundly wrong in this case.

Citizen Diversity
Citizen Diversity
1 year ago

‘Who made me a judge or divider over you?’ (Luke.xii.14).
Some think moral cowardice of others? ‘It is a small matter that I should be judged by you.’ (1 Cor.iv.3.)

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago

A major problem in all of this is people failing to understand the (clear and obvious) difference between “Justification” and “Understanding”. A heinous act may be 100% Unjustified and simultaneously 100% “Understandable”. If you blow my child to smithereens as he walks to school, me killing you horribly is understandable but NOT justified.. not within the law, nor morally nor within my Christian beliefs.
Hatred is Understandable but not justified.
Vengeance is Understandable but not justified
I also find it utterly astonishing and I’m totally disgusted by people who somehow think beheading, de-limbing, eviscerating a child from the safety of 5,000 is not morally IDENTICAL to doing so at close quarters. The only difference as far as I can see is a kind of smug cowardice accompanies one vile act while they both share Satanic evil. Equally, when one is 24 times the scale of the other, it us 23 times worse.. no ifs, no ands no buts.
Is it because USUK tax payers (supplying the bombs and shells) would have to share in the shame if they didn’t resort to ‘rationionalisation’ as an ego defence mechanism? In law, aiding and abetting are regarded as fully guilty of the heinous crime no matter how removed you might like to think you are.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

They are not Christians – they are Jews: an eye for an eye.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

Right. Unfortunately the Muslims follow the same rule, thus it will continue forever or until the world puts a stop to it. Either the Muslims will push the Jews into the sea, or the Jews will push the Muslims into the desert, OR justice will finally be done and they get used to living beside each other — which history shows is possible.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

The Muslims recognise Christ as a prophet but he is superseded by Mohammad and consequently his teachings are disregarded. Unlike the Muslims, Jews don’t believe in martyrdom or that killing an infidel guarantees a place in paradise. Though, in the past, Christians believed killing Muslims was a Christian act (Crusades).

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I’m totally disgusted by people who somehow think beheading, de-limbing, eviscerating a child from the safety of 5,000 is not morally IDENTICAL…”
It may be similar in immediate results, but not in intention, and this is why they are not morally identical situations. Hamas et al purposefully set out to commit the atrocity of the killing and torture of innocents – which they then celebrate. We know this because they tell us so, and then they act accordingly. Israeli forces, I believe, try to limit damage to innocents (they are specifically trying to target only militia, and ‘accept’ the death of innocents as collateral, damage – as all sides have done in every conflict since time immemorial). Such damage is all but inevitable when your enemy embeds itself within civilian communities, on purpose, with malice aforethought.

We know this of the Israelis because they tell us so, and because they act so – e.g. giving warnings before bombs, giving time for civilians to clear out; not routinely, specifically celebrating the death of innocents on the streets and online, for all to see; not putting a clause in their constitution calling for the destruction of Palestine..

Last edited 1 year ago by Dominic A
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

“We now this because they tell us so, before they act so.”
Sure, it’s call asymmetrical warfare. Hamas commits their highly focused atrocity and 1400 are butchered in violation of all human decency. Israel collaterally ‘damages’ (kills) ten times that number in strict conformity to the Geneva Conventions. Hamas butchers literally have the blood of their victims on their hands. Israeli pilots drop their bombs from computerized cockpits — so much more ‘civilized’.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

I would far, far rather be killed or wounded from afar by bullet or bomb than by home invaders with blades, penises and pistols. So weird as it sounds, it is more civilised, to me anyway.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dominic A
Fraoch A
Fraoch A
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I ip oted you but the system reversed my vote.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
1 year ago

Right now on BBC Two, Apocalypse Now: Final Cut. Something has to lighten the mood. In the United Nations General Assembly, the shameful abstainers, but abstainers all the same, included Britain, Australia, Canada, India, Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea, even the Netherlands that had already sent in Marines, and even Ukraine. Much hailed in Rightist circles, the new Government of New Zealand was nevertheless part of the global majority.

The United States and Israel must make do with Austria, Croatia, Czechia, Fiji, Guatemala, Hungary, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, and Tonga. We may be grateful that Keir Starmer was not its Prime Minister, or the United Kingdom would have been on that list, exceeding Anthony Albanese, Justin Trudeau, Narendra Modi, Giorgia Meloni, and Volodymyr Zelensky. Labour will not call for a ceasefire until the United States had done so, a tied hand that Rishi Sunak has not inflicted upon himself.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

I agree with Guterres but his mistake was adding the “did not happen in a vacuum” qualifier. We all know there is the unresolved question of Palestinian statehood and repression by Israel, but it was undiplomatic to mention it at this point; it’s an issue for another day, when the dust has settled. Otherwise, his words, on record, state that he condemned the Hamas attack.

aaron david
aaron david
1 year ago

Timing is everything. And you would think that someone who had risen to the heights of the UN general assembly would know this.
But, alas.

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago

“To recognise that two sides are both at fault does not justify what either of them do to each other; and positing historical causes is not the same as distributing blame.”

Hysterical Unherd boomers need to begin taking this to heart instead of pretending all of this is going on in a historical vacuum.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  R Wright

Good point, I find all the knee-jerk down votes rather puerile. So little nuance on unherd these days.

Tommy Abdy Collins
Tommy Abdy Collins
1 year ago

The Jews are responsible for the 7th Oct attack. If they hadn’t provoked the Palestinians over the last decades and then deliberately land-grabbed by building settlements it is u likely Hamas would have had any excuse for attacking. As an attrocity it was no worse than many others committed by others over the decades and on into history.

Arthur G
Arthur G
1 year ago

Wow, what utter nonsense. Israel won that land in defensive wars. If the Palestinians wanted to keep it they should have agreed to one of the half-dozen two-state solutions offered since 1948.
You don’t get to wage genocidal war, and when you lose, say “wait you can’t take our land”. That’s not how any of this works.

Frank Freeman
Frank Freeman
1 year ago

After all that waffle, we still don’t know if you support an immediate cease fire, so the killing can stop, or you want the bombing to continue, even though it has now killed over 7 thousand civilians, and injured thousands more, not to mention destroying sewage works, ( possibly causing a cholera outbreak).
Do you also support the denial of food, water and fuel/ Remember, you can’t launch a rocket with diesel.
As for the rapes, there is no evidence, and the 40 beheaded babies (not 41 or 39) like many of the Israeli killed that day, they may have been killed by Israeli soldiers shooting at Hamas, and not risking their lives trying to rescue the hostages. This interview with an Israeli survivor makes interesting reading:- https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

Arthur G
Arthur G
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank Freeman

Personally, I want the bombing to continue until Hamas is destroyed. Civilians should evacuate northern Gaza, like they were told two weeks ago.

Frank Freeman
Frank Freeman
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

The Israelis are also bombing the south of Gaza. The aim is not to destroy Hamas, every Palestinian Israel kills bring Hamas more recruits. The aim is to either kill the 2.3 million Palestinians in Gaza or drive them into the Sinai desert. Even if Hamas was “destroyed” a new group would replace them. If Israel wants to live in peace, they have to make peace.

Ken Bowman
Ken Bowman
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank Freeman

If Hamas is not aiming for peace what then?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

It’s interesting how the time differences affect the up/down votes. My comments are critical of Israel’s response to the terrorism of Hamas, I believe far too many civilians have been killed and in my eyes both sides are as bad as each other, and most of my comments say as much.
Living in the antipodes now as I write it and people respond here and in Europe those comments remain largely neutral in terms of votes, a couple up or down either way. However as soon as the time difference means Americans start joining in every comment then gets downvoted massively.
It appears (something I’ve always suspected) that unconditional support for Israel is largely an American phenomenon, the general population in other nations is like myself largely indifferent

Last edited 1 year ago by Billy Bob
Arthur G
Arthur G
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Is it strange that we Americans unconditionally support a country who’s enemy just attacked and intentionally raped and slaughtered women and children? If someone did the same to Australia or New Zealand, I’d unconditionally support those countries destroying their enemies.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

But as has been said numerous times, this isn’t an attack that has happened out of the blue. Whilst I condemn the actions of Hamas that day, there’s decades of deplorable behaviour by the Israelis in the build up to it (as well as violent responses by the Palestinians).
Neither side comes out if it well, but when judging the whole geopolitical history and situation of the conflicts I have more sympathy for the Palestinians position than I do the Israeli one I’m not going to lie. This isn’t to excuse a terrorist attacking such as the one a few weeks ago, but a thousand innocent Israelis being murdered doesn’t give Israel the right to murder four times that number of Palestinian civilians in retaliation

Phil Re
Phil Re
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Well, no. Israel left Gaza in 2005, or didn’t you hear?

It’s Hamas that’s been horribly abusing the people of Gaza since then. Israel still supplied Gaza’s electricity and water because Hamas diverted all the aid money to build 300 miles of tunnels below Gaza instead of building civilian infrastructure.