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Will the US learn from Serbia’s mass shootings? Both countries are failing young men

A candlelit vigil in Belgrade (Srdjan Stevanovic/Getty Images)

A candlelit vigil in Belgrade (Srdjan Stevanovic/Getty Images)


May 31, 2023   6 mins

With the glaring exception of the United States, a mass shooting normally sparks a national crisis — one that begins with some desperate, top-down soul-searching before an immediate clampdown on gun ownership. In Canada in 1989, Australia and the UK in 1996, and Norway in 2011, it took a single massacre for politicians to agree, almost universally, to tighten controls: heightened background checks for gun purchasers, a ban on military-style assault weapons, databases of those disbarred due to mental illness.

Despite having one of the world’s highest per-capita rates of gun ownership, Serbia had never witnessed a mass shooting until last month, when a 13-year-old boy killed nine fellow students and a security guard at his elementary school in Belgrade. It was the deadliest school shooting in Europe in 15 years – and it was followed by another spree, just one day later and a few miles away, when a 21-year-old man armed with a semi-automatic rifle opened fire as he drove through three villages south of Belgrade, killing eight.

Although a number of American gun-control activists have praised the seemingly swift response by President Aleksander Vučić, the shootings have prompted the largest protests seen in Serbia since the fall of Slobodan Miloơević in 2000. While Vučić hastily announced stricter measures, his authoritarian government’s deployment of 1,200 police officers to schools — as well as its threat to bring back the death penalty — were seen by many locals as both insufficient and heavy-handed. A Serbian minister’s claim the school shooting was caused by the spread of “Western values” further infuriated protestors, who accused him of instrumentalising the tragedy in line with a pro-Putin agenda.

In this way, the present crisis illustrates the failures of the authoritarian Vučić government — and, by extension, also of Western intervention in the region. But it also shows the grim success of a particularly American brand of individualistic, sexist rage.

Certainly, the immediate response by both the government and opposition has been a world away from the endless debate in America, which had seen nearly 200 mass shootings in 2023 by the time of the Belgrade massacre. But as Biljana Djordjevic, an opposition MP in a green coalition, tells me, the crisis occasioned by her country’s dual massacres is “bigger than these two tragedies” alone, and represents a potential “moment for this country to change”. Mass demonstrations at the shootings have prompted demands for resignations at the top of government and reforms of the government-controlled media ecosystem. The largest protests since Vučić came to power bespeak a deeper anger with his highly centralised rule, corrupt and inadequate service provision, and lack of democratic norms.

In Belgrade, few doubt that the powerful interests focused around Vučić are trying to prevent any such change from taking place. Last weekend, the president brought his supporters onto the city’s rain-swept streets. Memes on Serbian social media mocked the buses shuttling Right-wing nationalists into the capital, and the provision of free drinks and snacks as an inducement to attendees. (Vučić-branded cereal bars were freely available, with packets of Smoki, the delicious and insanely popular corn puffs, handed out only on request.)

While addressing a rain-drenched crowd, Vučić resigned the leadership of his dominant Serbian Progressive Party (SNS). He made it clear he will remain president while launching a new, centralised political force with which he intends to cleanse Serbia of what he called “severe diseases”. Prominent among those “diseases” will be the “vultures” and “hyenas” the president has condemned as attempting to politicise the shootings.

Demonstrators parroted government lines – that this was a “gathering”, not a protest; that the event had nothing to do with the recent shootings; and nor was it a rearguard action following the ongoing anti-government protests, which brought tens of thousands of people to the same streets. “This is not related to the shooting,” insisted Ilya, 32, one of a group of muscular, shaven-headed men lined up in front of the stage where Vučić was set to speak. “We just want to show we support our president. If he calls us, we will come.” 

In practice, the “gathering” was a show of force, bringing together pro-government hooligans, war veterans, state employees, Serb nationalists from Serb regions of neighbouring countries, and pensioners in pursuit of free nibbles. The event coincided with a flare-up of violence in Kosovo, provoked this time by ethnically Albanian authorities in the breakaway region, thus providing Vučić with a convenient foil for his calls for national unity. Scores of Serb protesters and Nato soldiers were subsequently injured in clashes. 

It is clear that many Serbians are angered by what they view as the government’s self-serving response to the shootings. A uniquely diverse range of opposition parties — centre-Right, liberal and Leftist — plus various political movements have backed the ongoing anti-government demonstrations. “I’m in favour of a complete ban on weapons,” said Biljana Stojkovic, co-chair of Leftist party Zajedno (Together), “but the presence of policemen in schools can only increase fear and abnormality.” Djordevic notes that the Belgrade shooter came from wealth and the second gunman’s father was an army General, meaning that both could still have access to guns, regardless of official controls.

In a clear contrast with the pro-government “gathering”, the angry protesters huddling under umbrellas were immediately and volubly political, linking the shootings to what they call a “culture of violence” and impunity emanating from the government. “Why are we here? After 10 years of dictatorial rule, repression, closed media and brainwashing, why do you have to ask?” Slobodan, 52, tells me. Like other demonstrators, he is quick to demand Vučić’s removal, liberalisation and a concomitant pivot towards Europe, away from what Slobodan calls “Eastern despotism”. (Serbia has been on the waiting list to join the EU since 2009, a major stumbling block to its membership being its refusal to recognise Kosovo’s declaration of independence.) 

Indeed, Western policy plays a crucial rhetorical and geopolitical role in shaping Serbia’s ongoing domestic debate. In Serbia, criticisms of state policy are typically articulated through appeals for a pivot towards the West, which are in turn rebutted and echoed in reverse by the government’s supporters. “The issue is the immediate reaction, the claim the system has not failed,” says Djordjevic, arguing that the minister who blamed “Western values” mere hours after the massacre intended to distract attention from government failings. She highlights the second shooting, conducted by the general’s son sporting neo-Nazi insignia, as instead demonstrating the role of nationalist, Right-wing ideology in facilitating the ‘culture of violence’ blamed for the killings. “Blaming ‘Western values’ is a way to promote Putin’s values in Serbia, as a contrast to democracy,” Stojkovic adds. 

Ever since the collapse of Tito’s “third way” socialism path between the communist Soviet Union and the capitalist United States, the Serbian Left has struggled to articulate alternatives to Russian-sponsored revanchism without looking to Europe for inspiration and support, with predictably limited results. Actual European accession, and subsequent investment, remains essentially off the table. As such, the liberal opposition’s courting of Europe has resulted in few positive steps toward the democratisation protesters believe could prevent more shooting tragedies. “We just have to wait for the EU to help us to move forward. Right now we are stuck in a vacuum,” says Stojkovic.

Meanwhile, there are other US “values” that may underpin the Belgrade massacre. As a prescient analysis published just two weeks before the school shooting suggests, ultra-misogynistic ideas promoted by “manosphere” influencers such as Andrew Tate — who chose the Balkan nation of Romania as a hideout prior to his arrest on rape and human trafficking charges — have found an enthusiastic audience among young Serbian men. NGO-led efforts to promote gender equality have struggled to make significant inroads, with feminism and LGBT rights characterised as “Western”, therefore liberalising, therefore destructive influences.

It’s striking that eight of the nine fellow pupils killed by the school shooter were girls. Though Djordevic cautions it is too early to ascribe definitive motivations to the shooter, the hallmarks of a US-style school shooting motivated by a particular confection of entitlement, resentment and “incel” ideology are readily apparent. Whether explicitly or implicitly, the poisonous notion that young men have a “right to sex” with whichever girl they please constantly recurs as a motivation behind recent US school shootings. (On a US-based “incel” forum, the shooting was rapidly praised by both US and Serbian posters.)

As in America, the idea that young people’s hardships are the fault of a political culture that denies them opportunities for conquest has proven considerably more compelling than the liberal rights order with which the misogynistic ideologues are in constant, self-perpetuating battle. Neither Tate nor Vučić offers any real solution to the genuine challenges faced by the new generations over which they hold sway. But in their own way, each is able to harness and profit from their followers’ misplaced anger. And in both cases, the Left has long struggled to come up with a compelling, organised alternative to their opponents’ strident battle-cries. 

Whether Serbia’s nascent protest movement will indeed prove able to “institutionalise the change people feel in their hearts”, as Djordevic’s claims, remains to be seen. What is certain is that Serbia, like the United States, is in need of political proposals and cultural role-models reaching beyond current polarities. And in both nations, the criticism of a liberal order which has failed to follow through on promises of a better world for the new generation should not preclude the critique of those who prey on young men’s worst impulses.


Matt Broomfield is a freelance journalist and co-founder of the Rojava Information Center, the leading independent English-language news source in north and east Syria.

MattBroomfield1

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Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I get the sense that the author knows as much about Andrew Tate as I do, which is very little.

I’m not at all convinced of this premise:

“Whether explicitly or implicitly, the poisonous notion that young men have a “right to sex” with whichever girl they please constantly recurs as a motivation behind recent US school shootings.”

The motivations of US mass shooters appears to be all over the place IMO. By far, the most common theme is extraordinary mental health issues that were almost always ignored.

I was also confused by the references to mass shootings and school shootings. They are two different things. To be clear, the overwhelming majority of mass shootings in the US are family and gang related, if we use the definition of four or more people shot.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I get the sense that the author knows as much about Andrew Tate as I do, which is very little.

I’m not at all convinced of this premise:

“Whether explicitly or implicitly, the poisonous notion that young men have a “right to sex” with whichever girl they please constantly recurs as a motivation behind recent US school shootings.”

The motivations of US mass shooters appears to be all over the place IMO. By far, the most common theme is extraordinary mental health issues that were almost always ignored.

I was also confused by the references to mass shootings and school shootings. They are two different things. To be clear, the overwhelming majority of mass shootings in the US are family and gang related, if we use the definition of four or more people shot.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
T Bone
T Bone
1 year ago

I love how after 234 years of Professional Crisis Initiating…Socialists still think they have the moral high road. Let’s examine Historically how Socialism plays out. First an Event either occurs organically or is assisted into being. At this time the Socialists report the truism that the Event burdens the most downtrodden. This then must be remediated by some policy that redistributes some form of economic or cultural property.  But maybe there is social or political resistance to redistribution. Not a problem; this is when the Socialist revs up the Collective Action Machine to agitate for Change. 

At this stage, a scapegoat from the status quo is needed. So the Socialists starts dividing the population into Good and Bad classification buckets and relentlessly agitating for political action.  The first demand is for “urgent funding to stem an emergency” and transfers from the Bad Privileged Class to the Sacred New Proletariat.

The ongoing street agitation eventually breaks down order as the Socialists seek to demonize Law Enforcement, who they claim disproportionately target the downtrodden. Once the Socialists have removed law enforcement, they begin to pillage under the guise of Robinhood Humanitarianism which leads to shuddering business and a fear environment.  Next comes the inflationary period brought on by excess “emergency” money printing. Here, rising costs lead to more existential nihilism culminating in senseless acts of violence.  At this stage, the Socialists demands individual rights be curtailed under the guise of saving the collective. 

The Story of 2020 is a timeless story. The Problem creates a managed Reaction that necessitates a preconceived Solution. Conditions are magically brought into being with the loving help of Social Engineers and their change agent revolutionaries.

Last edited 1 year ago by T Bone
Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

Excellent.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  T Bone

Excellent.

T Bone
T Bone
1 year ago

I love how after 234 years of Professional Crisis Initiating…Socialists still think they have the moral high road. Let’s examine Historically how Socialism plays out. First an Event either occurs organically or is assisted into being. At this time the Socialists report the truism that the Event burdens the most downtrodden. This then must be remediated by some policy that redistributes some form of economic or cultural property.  But maybe there is social or political resistance to redistribution. Not a problem; this is when the Socialist revs up the Collective Action Machine to agitate for Change. 

At this stage, a scapegoat from the status quo is needed. So the Socialists starts dividing the population into Good and Bad classification buckets and relentlessly agitating for political action.  The first demand is for “urgent funding to stem an emergency” and transfers from the Bad Privileged Class to the Sacred New Proletariat.

The ongoing street agitation eventually breaks down order as the Socialists seek to demonize Law Enforcement, who they claim disproportionately target the downtrodden. Once the Socialists have removed law enforcement, they begin to pillage under the guise of Robinhood Humanitarianism which leads to shuddering business and a fear environment.  Next comes the inflationary period brought on by excess “emergency” money printing. Here, rising costs lead to more existential nihilism culminating in senseless acts of violence.  At this stage, the Socialists demands individual rights be curtailed under the guise of saving the collective. 

The Story of 2020 is a timeless story. The Problem creates a managed Reaction that necessitates a preconceived Solution. Conditions are magically brought into being with the loving help of Social Engineers and their change agent revolutionaries.

Last edited 1 year ago by T Bone
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago

I wonder if you know that Vucic is considered an authoritarian Leftist by many Serbs. Why do you assume that merely disliking LGBTQ trans rights as a dominant mode of social behaviour reduces you to ” Fascist”?
Liberal Progressives need to wake up and smell the coffee that not all societies agree that Wokeism is the only preferred mode of liberalism.

Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago

I wonder if you know that Vucic is considered an authoritarian Leftist by many Serbs. Why do you assume that merely disliking LGBTQ trans rights as a dominant mode of social behaviour reduces you to ” Fascist”?
Liberal Progressives need to wake up and smell the coffee that not all societies agree that Wokeism is the only preferred mode of liberalism.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

I’m in the weird position of having met two of the mass shooters listed at the beginning of this article.

There wasn’t anything that governments could have done to meet the 1996 Australian shooter halfway; he had severe intellectual disabilities which were immediately clear whenever we’d encounter him as a teenager. He couldn’t function in society and needed to be in a care facility for the rest of his life.

He wasn’t only not an incel; he was adopted by an eccentric heiress, who he likely killed by grabbing the wheel of her car, causing a crash.

The Norwegian, I don’t know, it was at a right-wing, Euro-nativist event, very fringe and composed of fans of martial ideologies and the occult, almost all male, along with a cadre of poseurs of the gin-bramble-and-Julius-Evola set.
I doubt some of the heterosexual ones were particularly functional around women. The Norwegian at least looked hygienic and well-presented.
But this event probably had more MI5 officers than registered attendees – you could see them falling into step alongside the groups walking to the building, which was an upstairs bar in the City of London.
And it was such a gaggle of nincompoops, neo-magickal bores and social incompetents, that peering through the mental-unwellness fog and spotting the one guy who might do something, would have been the work of decades.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

I’m in the weird position of having met two of the mass shooters listed at the beginning of this article.

There wasn’t anything that governments could have done to meet the 1996 Australian shooter halfway; he had severe intellectual disabilities which were immediately clear whenever we’d encounter him as a teenager. He couldn’t function in society and needed to be in a care facility for the rest of his life.

He wasn’t only not an incel; he was adopted by an eccentric heiress, who he likely killed by grabbing the wheel of her car, causing a crash.

The Norwegian, I don’t know, it was at a right-wing, Euro-nativist event, very fringe and composed of fans of martial ideologies and the occult, almost all male, along with a cadre of poseurs of the gin-bramble-and-Julius-Evola set.
I doubt some of the heterosexual ones were particularly functional around women. The Norwegian at least looked hygienic and well-presented.
But this event probably had more MI5 officers than registered attendees – you could see them falling into step alongside the groups walking to the building, which was an upstairs bar in the City of London.
And it was such a gaggle of nincompoops, neo-magickal bores and social incompetents, that peering through the mental-unwellness fog and spotting the one guy who might do something, would have been the work of decades.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

“A ban on assault weapons.”
How do you ban something that no-one can define ?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

“A ban on assault weapons.”
How do you ban something that no-one can define ?

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
1 year ago

What do incels and Islam have in common ? Entitlement to sex from a woman that you are able to nab off the street or lure into your digs. Also, a society in which the rules are stacked for men, at the expense of women. The rape of Dinah happened before Islam even came to be, however the people of the region, now Nablus, still view women as property. It just had not been codified yet.
No seriously …. Albania to Kosovo is the creeping demographic wave of practitioners of the political ideology called Islam. Looking at some of the maps of the crack-up of Yugoslavia, the demographic breakdown is by nationality except for “Muslim”. What does that tell you ? Western values of democracy and nation state shunned in Islamic countries are used opportunistically by Islamists spreading their ideology by persecuting, impoverishing, and murdering each other in their own territories. How many Syrians have been driven out of Syria to populate western nations ? How many Albanians boatlift into Europe or go on foot overland to the EU for a better live ?
Confusing, yes ? And what is at the root ? The West is committing cultural suicide with a hodgepodge of trendy, liberal progressive “values”. Jews and Christians have much in common; unfortunately the Holocaust did much to damage the Jewish world population and highlight the false witnessing of Christians for 2 millenia. Lesson learned. Nostre Etate. The vile lapse in judgment that caused the Holocaust is only being replayed in another fashion by applying the lessons learned, very inappropriately so, to Muslim immigrants. The Quran has no overlap with Judeo-Christian texts. The replacement of western-minded peoples with Islam is in the throes of chaos and there will be, as a result, mayhem.
Maybe Islam is the cure for the involuntarily celibate.

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
1 year ago

What do incels and Islam have in common ? Entitlement to sex from a woman that you are able to nab off the street or lure into your digs. Also, a society in which the rules are stacked for men, at the expense of women. The rape of Dinah happened before Islam even came to be, however the people of the region, now Nablus, still view women as property. It just had not been codified yet.
No seriously …. Albania to Kosovo is the creeping demographic wave of practitioners of the political ideology called Islam. Looking at some of the maps of the crack-up of Yugoslavia, the demographic breakdown is by nationality except for “Muslim”. What does that tell you ? Western values of democracy and nation state shunned in Islamic countries are used opportunistically by Islamists spreading their ideology by persecuting, impoverishing, and murdering each other in their own territories. How many Syrians have been driven out of Syria to populate western nations ? How many Albanians boatlift into Europe or go on foot overland to the EU for a better live ?
Confusing, yes ? And what is at the root ? The West is committing cultural suicide with a hodgepodge of trendy, liberal progressive “values”. Jews and Christians have much in common; unfortunately the Holocaust did much to damage the Jewish world population and highlight the false witnessing of Christians for 2 millenia. Lesson learned. Nostre Etate. The vile lapse in judgment that caused the Holocaust is only being replayed in another fashion by applying the lessons learned, very inappropriately so, to Muslim immigrants. The Quran has no overlap with Judeo-Christian texts. The replacement of western-minded peoples with Islam is in the throes of chaos and there will be, as a result, mayhem.
Maybe Islam is the cure for the involuntarily celibate.

SIMON WOLF
SIMON WOLF
1 year ago

The tv channel travelxp 182 has an travel around Serbia series called Backpack which may be available on U-tube.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago

Any comment from resident columnist Julie Bindel the feminist hutt ?

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago

The answer to the question the author poses is ‘No’. While the Republican Party priorities the ‘right’ for any creep that wants one to own an AR-15, or equivalent, over the rights of others to go to school, go to a nightclub, go shopping, go to a place of worship safely, then mass shootings will continue at the same rate.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Ridiculous.
You talk as if every gun owner in the US buys a gun to go on a shooting spree.
When will people like you understand that taking guns off law abiding people cannot and never will stop the CRIMINAL MISUSE of guns.
Places like Chigaco have the toughest firearms laws but the worst gun crime in the whole of the US.
Another thing, if you are not a US citizen then
stay out of it.
It is none of your business.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It’s nothing to do with the constitution. Not even remotely. Historically, gun control legislation has been passed by Congress to deal with particular circumstances eg the use of machine guns in the 1930s, without the Republic falling. The current gun absolutism has to do with the forever culture wars the Right want to fight. It’s pretty pathetic to sacrifice your kids just to ‘own the libs’, but I guess that’s where you are.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Don’t lie. It is to do with the constitution, the 2nd amendment.
No-one is sacrificing kids that is ludicrous.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

What about the “well-regulated militia.”? Republicans/ Supreme Court keep acting like that clause doesn’t exist.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It’s not. If legislation can be brought in during the 1930s without anyone complaining that it compromised the constitution then it could be today. No mass shootings are committed by either members of a well regulated militia or anyone defending themselves from unlawful violence. And the politicians who refuse to act after school shooting after school shooting are quite obviously sacrificing kids.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Taking guns off law abiding citizens will have no effect on the criminal misuse of guns.
That is the point.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

But the people committing mass shootings are not law abiding citizens. That’s the point. Allowing everyone to own automatic weapons means school shootings will keep happening. That’s the choice you and the other gun absolutists are making. The real lie is to pretend otherwise.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

I have already explained to you that automatic weapons are not for sale in the USA.
But you ignored that and continue to lie.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

I have already explained to you that automatic weapons are not for sale in the USA.
But you ignored that and continue to lie.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

But the people committing mass shootings are not law abiding citizens. That’s the point. Allowing everyone to own automatic weapons means school shootings will keep happening. That’s the choice you and the other gun absolutists are making. The real lie is to pretend otherwise.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Taking guns off law abiding citizens will have no effect on the criminal misuse of guns.
That is the point.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

What about the “well-regulated militia.”? Republicans/ Supreme Court keep acting like that clause doesn’t exist.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It’s not. If legislation can be brought in during the 1930s without anyone complaining that it compromised the constitution then it could be today. No mass shootings are committed by either members of a well regulated militia or anyone defending themselves from unlawful violence. And the politicians who refuse to act after school shooting after school shooting are quite obviously sacrificing kids.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Don’t lie. It is to do with the constitution, the 2nd amendment.
No-one is sacrificing kids that is ludicrous.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It’s also worth pointing out that the Chicago argument is nonsense. If I can’t buy something where I live but I can get it up the road, with no questions asked, then I go up the road. While people from Chicago have Indiana on their doorstep, what do you think they are going to do?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

You are assuming people have guns to commit crimes.
You cannot purchase a gun anywhere in the US ” with no questions asked ” .
Background checks are mandatory.
Again, stop lying.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Aren’t mass shootings crimes? Committed by people using guns?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

No-one disputes that. What is your point ?

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

When you said ‘you assume people have guns to commit crimes’ I was making the point that they DO have guns. All mass shootings are committed by people using automatic weapons, so if you want to prevent mass shootings start by making it harder/impossible to buy automatic weapons. Polls show a majority of US citizens want some form of gun control but Republican politicians ensure this doesn’t happen.

It’s a trade off: no gun control means more mass shootings, more gun control should mean less. So it’s a choice, isn’t it?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

There is control, it is called a background check.
Automatic weapons are extremely difficult to acquire in the US.
Automatic weapons are not generally for sale in the US
An AR15 is not an automatic weapon.
Got it now, have you ?
You have just demonstrated how ignorant you are.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Yes, an AR-15 is a semi-automatic, if that’s your point, but, hey, pretty efficient at murdering kids!

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

At last !
So you are not qualified to comment on gun issues because you know nothing about them.
No, it’s the mentally disturbed people who are doing this.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

So why do people like you want to give mentally disturbed people guns? And I know enough about guns to know that they kill kids when there is no gun control. Which, basically, is all I need to know.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Stop lying.
When did I say I want to give guns to mentally disturbed people ?
There is gun control.
You are like that BBC reporter who went into a gun shop to buy a gun.
They spotted him a mile off.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Stop lying.
When did I say I want to give guns to mentally disturbed people ?
There is gun control.
You are like that BBC reporter who went into a gun shop to buy a gun.
They spotted him a mile off.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

So why do people like you want to give mentally disturbed people guns? And I know enough about guns to know that they kill kids when there is no gun control. Which, basically, is all I need to know.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

At last !
So you are not qualified to comment on gun issues because you know nothing about them.
No, it’s the mentally disturbed people who are doing this.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Yes, an AR-15 is a semi-automatic, if that’s your point, but, hey, pretty efficient at murdering kids!

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

There is control, it is called a background check.
Automatic weapons are extremely difficult to acquire in the US.
Automatic weapons are not generally for sale in the US
An AR15 is not an automatic weapon.
Got it now, have you ?
You have just demonstrated how ignorant you are.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

When you said ‘you assume people have guns to commit crimes’ I was making the point that they DO have guns. All mass shootings are committed by people using automatic weapons, so if you want to prevent mass shootings start by making it harder/impossible to buy automatic weapons. Polls show a majority of US citizens want some form of gun control but Republican politicians ensure this doesn’t happen.

It’s a trade off: no gun control means more mass shootings, more gun control should mean less. So it’s a choice, isn’t it?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

No-one disputes that. What is your point ?

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Oh, and Indiana doesn’t require a universal background check. So hardly ‘lying’.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Not so.
You are twisting the truth here.

” Indiana is not a point of contact state for the NICS. Indiana law explicitly requires dealers to conduct a background check prior to transferring a handgun, by contacting the FBI directly.1 Although Indiana has no law explicitly requiring firearms dealers to initiate a background check prior to transferring a long gun, the federal law requires dealers to initiate a background check prior to the transfer of any kind of gun by contacting the FBI directly.”

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Seriously? You are just dodging the issue by using childish abuse. Grow up.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Is it slowly dawning on you that you don’t know what you are talking about ?
So you feel the need to resort to childish abuse yourself ?
The American people will never allow the government to disarm them, especially when the Democrats have encouraged criminals by not locking them up.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

No, I get it. Back to my original point, you prefer any creep to have an AR-15 than protect innocent people. That’s your choice. Kids will keep dying and you’re OK with that.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Is the AR15 an automatic weapon ?
You dodged that.
Answer that
You are using an illogical argument.
You are assuming kids will be shot if shooters possess guns.
That is utterly ridiculous and don’t try that one.
Of course I’m not OK with kids or anyone else dying from the misuse of firearms.
Why is an AR15 owner a creep ?
You are a creep and a fascist.
You have no right to restrict the rights of other people.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
T Bone
T Bone
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Ask Steve how many gun shops are in Mexico and then ask him to reflect on the rate of “mass shootings.” There’s one shop in the entire country…

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

There are mass shootings, including at schools, they are committed by people with guns, generally AR-15s. If you don’t want to restrict the rights of these people to have AR-15s then there will be more school shootings. You are either OK with this or you’re not. And you obviously are. No amount of nitpicking about terminology or playground insults changes that.

T Bone
T Bone
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Ask Steve how many gun shops are in Mexico and then ask him to reflect on the rate of “mass shootings.” There’s one shop in the entire country…

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

There are mass shootings, including at schools, they are committed by people with guns, generally AR-15s. If you don’t want to restrict the rights of these people to have AR-15s then there will be more school shootings. You are either OK with this or you’re not. And you obviously are. No amount of nitpicking about terminology or playground insults changes that.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Is the AR15 an automatic weapon ?
You dodged that.
Answer that
You are using an illogical argument.
You are assuming kids will be shot if shooters possess guns.
That is utterly ridiculous and don’t try that one.
Of course I’m not OK with kids or anyone else dying from the misuse of firearms.
Why is an AR15 owner a creep ?
You are a creep and a fascist.
You have no right to restrict the rights of other people.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

No, I get it. Back to my original point, you prefer any creep to have an AR-15 than protect innocent people. That’s your choice. Kids will keep dying and you’re OK with that.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Is it slowly dawning on you that you don’t know what you are talking about ?
So you feel the need to resort to childish abuse yourself ?
The American people will never allow the government to disarm them, especially when the Democrats have encouraged criminals by not locking them up.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Seriously? You are just dodging the issue by using childish abuse. Grow up.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Not so.
You are twisting the truth here.

” Indiana is not a point of contact state for the NICS. Indiana law explicitly requires dealers to conduct a background check prior to transferring a handgun, by contacting the FBI directly.1 Although Indiana has no law explicitly requiring firearms dealers to initiate a background check prior to transferring a long gun, the federal law requires dealers to initiate a background check prior to the transfer of any kind of gun by contacting the FBI directly.”

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Aren’t mass shootings crimes? Committed by people using guns?

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Oh, and Indiana doesn’t require a universal background check. So hardly ‘lying’.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

You are assuming people have guns to commit crimes.
You cannot purchase a gun anywhere in the US ” with no questions asked ” .
Background checks are mandatory.
Again, stop lying.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It’s nothing to do with the constitution. Not even remotely. Historically, gun control legislation has been passed by Congress to deal with particular circumstances eg the use of machine guns in the 1930s, without the Republic falling. The current gun absolutism has to do with the forever culture wars the Right want to fight. It’s pretty pathetic to sacrifice your kids just to ‘own the libs’, but I guess that’s where you are.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It’s also worth pointing out that the Chicago argument is nonsense. If I can’t buy something where I live but I can get it up the road, with no questions asked, then I go up the road. While people from Chicago have Indiana on their doorstep, what do you think they are going to do?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

It is not the Republican party, the Right to Keep and Bear arms is a constitutional right.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Not only is it a Constitutional right, it was considered a radical departure from the status quo of being kept down by a repressive government. The right to bear arms is a guarantor of liberty, and yes, there are always casualties. Better handling of the mentally handicapped and mentally ill are the solutions.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

Exactly.
It could be argued that armed citizens prevent many crimes being committed in the first place.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

Exactly.
It could be argued that armed citizens prevent many crimes being committed in the first place.

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Not only is it a Constitutional right, it was considered a radical departure from the status quo of being kept down by a repressive government. The right to bear arms is a guarantor of liberty, and yes, there are always casualties. Better handling of the mentally handicapped and mentally ill are the solutions.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

Ridiculous.
You talk as if every gun owner in the US buys a gun to go on a shooting spree.
When will people like you understand that taking guns off law abiding people cannot and never will stop the CRIMINAL MISUSE of guns.
Places like Chigaco have the toughest firearms laws but the worst gun crime in the whole of the US.
Another thing, if you are not a US citizen then
stay out of it.
It is none of your business.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

It is not the Republican party, the Right to Keep and Bear arms is a constitutional right.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago

The answer to the question the author poses is ‘No’. While the Republican Party priorities the ‘right’ for any creep that wants one to own an AR-15, or equivalent, over the rights of others to go to school, go to a nightclub, go shopping, go to a place of worship safely, then mass shootings will continue at the same rate.

Mark Falcoff
Mark Falcoff
1 year ago

Considering Serbia’s guilt for starting World War One, one can’t feel much sympathy for its apparent inability to enter the EU.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Falcoff

I’d feel sympathy for Serbia if her politicians were foolish enough to join the klepocracy that is the EU

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Falcoff

Think again …. The Black Hand …. There were 7 members of the Black Hand involved in the assassination plot of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo. They were Muhamed MehmedbaĆĄić, Vaso Čubrilović, Nedeljko Čabrinović, Cvjetko Popović, Trifko GrabeĆŸ, and Gavrilo Princip, who succeeded in shooting the Archduke and his wife.
These are Turkish names and likely Islamic separatists. WWI resulted in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and Turkish control over the area that used to be Anatole (Greece) prompted the Armenian genocide.
I once met a builder outside of Austin who was a native Serb. We had a long discussion about how Serbia kept Islam out of Europe. And now Europe and the west are handicapping Serbia from preventing territorial breakup. Hungary and Poland are paying attention. Italy too. I don’t defend massacre by any stretch of the imagination however something should be done to allow the removal of Muslims to Muslim lands rather than allow them to swarm lands where they do not integrate. Poor Israel is doing all it can not to use offensive tactics, but there are calls to collective punishment being heard. There is a limit to Islamic intrusion and it’s not going to end well no matter what is done or not done. There is no reform to be had for Islam. and it is poison to the world. Best keep it at bay.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Falcoff

I’d feel sympathy for Serbia if her politicians were foolish enough to join the klepocracy that is the EU

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark Falcoff

Think again …. The Black Hand …. There were 7 members of the Black Hand involved in the assassination plot of Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo. They were Muhamed MehmedbaĆĄić, Vaso Čubrilović, Nedeljko Čabrinović, Cvjetko Popović, Trifko GrabeĆŸ, and Gavrilo Princip, who succeeded in shooting the Archduke and his wife.
These are Turkish names and likely Islamic separatists. WWI resulted in the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and Turkish control over the area that used to be Anatole (Greece) prompted the Armenian genocide.
I once met a builder outside of Austin who was a native Serb. We had a long discussion about how Serbia kept Islam out of Europe. And now Europe and the west are handicapping Serbia from preventing territorial breakup. Hungary and Poland are paying attention. Italy too. I don’t defend massacre by any stretch of the imagination however something should be done to allow the removal of Muslims to Muslim lands rather than allow them to swarm lands where they do not integrate. Poor Israel is doing all it can not to use offensive tactics, but there are calls to collective punishment being heard. There is a limit to Islamic intrusion and it’s not going to end well no matter what is done or not done. There is no reform to be had for Islam. and it is poison to the world. Best keep it at bay.

Mark Falcoff
Mark Falcoff
1 year ago

Considering Serbia’s guilt for starting World War One, one can’t feel much sympathy for its apparent inability to enter the EU.