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How Britain lost British Steel Scunthorpe can't compete with China

A steelworker watches molten steel in Scunthorpe (LINDSEY PARNABY/AFP via Getty Images)

A steelworker watches molten steel in Scunthorpe (LINDSEY PARNABY/AFP via Getty Images)


April 4, 2023   7 mins

In 1859, a north Lincolnshire landowner named Rowland Winn discovered that under his land lay a valuable commodity. After digging it up, he sold 500 tons of the stuff to a Barnsley ironmaster — and Scunthorpe’s die was cast. This remote rural locality would become one of England’s engine-rooms — and the home of British Steel.

A few years after Winn’s excavations, the first furnaces were built, and the Domesday hamlet of Scunthorpe started producing pig-iron. The borough’s old crest features a blast furnace belching flames, with the redolent motto: “The Heavens Reflect Our Labours.” Soon, the county’s companies started turning the iron into steel. By the end of the First World War, Scunthorpe produced 3% of the UK’s steel, some of it armouring the first military tanks, invented in Lincoln; by the start of the Second, it was producing 10%, some of it used in D-Day landing craft.

Since then, Scunthorpe metal has gone into everything from Sydney Harbour Bridge to the London Eye. But this elemental industry is rusting away. British Steel has recurred in the last decade’s headlines, almost always linked to job losses. Now, up to 800 of its remaining 3,200 steel jobs are at risk — a painful reversal for Lincolnshire.

Scunthorpe’s steel was for many years a magnet, attracting workers from all over Britain, and sometimes overseas — Germans before the Second World War, Eastern Europeans afterwards, Asians in the Seventies. In 1960, almost a third of Scunthonians (around 20,000) were directly employed in steel. A BBC documentary from that year, Scunthorpe is Booming, shows a town of bustling streets, with optimistic interviewees talking about all the things they could buy thanks, directly or indirectly, to steel — cars and foreign holidays and “tellies” — although a few did express reservations about the social effects of all this dynamism. Industries sprang up to cater to steel’s ever-lengthening supply chains, and all these new consumers — including Golden Wonder crisps. (Some locals claim the cheese and onion flavour was invented in the town.)

It was Steve Cook who cast Scunthorpe’s last ingots, in 2000. He started at British Steel in 1968 with just four O-levels, and retired in 2007, having risen to the rank of Quality Manager. Sitting in his immaculate house within earshot of the furnaces, he exudes quiet pride: “Scunthorpe was renowned for making one of the best steels in the world, and the name British Steel was synonymous with quality.” He recalls an avuncular employer, which sponsored his studies in metallurgy, then provided a job for life. The town, he remembers fondly, largely revolved around shift-times, with hooters announcing shift-changes. Streets would fill with men on bicycles and then as suddenly empty again, an almost instinctive mass movement of those who were busily forging the future. Now the town’s commuters, faces fixed to their phones, are living in worlds of their own.

Not everyone enjoyed their time working in Scunthorpe steel. Conditions were hazardous in the early days. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, steelworkers would work 12-hour weekday shifts, and 24-hour shifts on alternate Sundays, with no extra pay even on Christmas Day. Veterans of the Twenties recalled their lunches being layered with fine iron grit. There were frequent accidents: on the worst day, in 1975, 11 workers died when one of the town’s iconic “Four Queens” furnaces blew up. As recently as 2021, a fireball erupted unexpectedly at the British Steel works, although luckily no-one was hurt. Last year, a 27-year-old worker was killed falling from a crane.

And not all the social impacts of the works were positive. Influxes of large numbers of young single men, and the Tartarean thirstiness of their work, resulted in problems with public drunkenness; as early as 1860, extra constables had to be drafted in. Employers took a zero-tolerance approach, with workers liable to be sacked if they had any alcohol on their breath — except for one steelworks, which ran what must have been a highly lucrative “wet canteen” into the Seventies.

A community spirit nevertheless emerged, grounded in shared experience and Methodist morality (nearby Epworth was John Wesley’s birthplace), and reinforced by institutions. Technical colleges and grammar schools, a hospital, a theatre, and an array of social and sporting clubs all began to appear, most famously Scunthorpe United, founded in 1899, and nicknamed “The Iron”. Workers wistfully recall a steely solidarity, with its own vocabulary — casters, feedstocks, gangue, sinter, trunnion — and a confidence borne of mastering dangerous elements for their own and everyone’s benefit. Steelworkers took on an almost mythic quality at times in the popular imagination, brilliantly skilled men silhouetted against incandescent orange, controlling leviathan cranes that swung 130-tonne ladles filled with 280 more tonnes of molten menace. Today’s call-centres, industrial parks, and offices are pallid by comparison.

When British Steel was born, in 1967, as the British Steel Corporation (BSC), there was much excitement about “the white heat of technology”. Innovations would, it was argued, remould the tired old post-imperial country. BSC emphasised quality over quantity, investing constantly in technical research. Britain had always been a world-leader in steel — but the pace of change had sped up. Some of the cars snapped up by Scunthorpe’s happy Sixties shoppers would have weighed a ton and a half of mostly British-made steel, but cars were becoming steadily lighter and smaller. There was less and less demand for Scunthorpe’s product, even before the whole motor industry went into the doldrums, along with British shipbuilding.

Then as now, successive governments failed to capitalise on British technical ingenuity. Ted Heath hoped that the new local authority of “Humberside”, into which Scunthorpe was lumped in 1974, might be an English Ruhr. But BSC always found itself fighting, often unavailingly, against cheaper Asian imports and other countries’ tariffs. The would-be Ruhr sometimes seemed at risk of becoming more of an American-style rust belt.

Enter: the Iron Lady. In the first two years of her reign, Margaret Thatcher appointed the uncompromising Ian MacGregor as chairman of BSC. Two of Scunthorpe’s four ironworks were closed. A December 1979 announcement of swingeing cuts at Scunthorpe was dubbed “Mr MacGregor’s sick Christmas card” by the town’s mayor, and led to a 13-week strike. But MacGregor was up for a fight, and ultimately, he won. In 1980, BSC had employed 166,000 nationwide, and lost £1.8 billion every year; by the time MacGregor left in 1983, it employed 71,000, and annual losses had been cut to £256m. In 1985, it recorded its best results since the Sixties. Scunthorpe was a crucible of a new economic order, melted and remade by monetarism — but there was a human cost, as in the mining communities of the North. Unemployment nationwide was almost three times what it is now.

Meanwhile, the nation was losing its grip on the industries that built it. Now a profitable company, BSC was privatised, before being absorbed into the British-Dutch Corus Group — the biggest steelmaker in Europe and the third-largest in the world. Corus was itself taken over, just in time for the financial crash, by the Indian firm Tata, which ended up selling it in 2016 to a venture capital firm for £1. After reintroducing the nostalgic name, the firm sold the plant on in 2019 to China’s Jingye Group, which now operates as British Steel. With every takeover, hundreds of jobs were lost; since 2007, Scunthorpe’s annual steel production has halved from 5m to 2.5m tonnes. This most substantial of great British industries is now forced to trust in overseas investors with no stake in the borough, and its rooted community relies on boardroom decisions in Beijing. Britain’s steel production is, after all, something of an afterthought from a Chinese perspective; in 2019, the UK produced just 7m tonnes of steel, compared with the 996m made in China.

The now barely British British Steel, reeling under high energy costs, is a pressure point for the Government. On the one hand, there is the wish to protect jobs in a “Red Wall” seat, won for the Conservatives in 2019 by the granddaughter of a steelworker. On the other, there is a national commitment to Net Zero carbon emissions, and steel accounts for around 14% of UK industrial emissions. Recently, British Steel has threatened to shed at least 260 jobs at Scunthorpe, and maybe as many as 800 — a quarter of all the jobs left — unless the Government gives it money to invest in greener electric furnaces. The Government has offered £300m, but negotiations appear to be foundering, because the money is thought insufficient, and comes with preconditions about guaranteeing employment for a decade. If all these Scunthorpe jobs do go, many Scunthonians fear they would be followed inexorably by others.

The Government claims to be committed to the industry, although support sometimes seems uncertain, and no new measures were announced in the latest budget. Steel does not contribute much directly to the UK economy — just £2 billion in 2020, when it accounted for 1.2% of manufacturing output and 0.1% of UK jobs. Still, there is strong ongoing and projected demand for steel — for projects ranging from HS2 to healthcare, flood defences to the military — and much of it could be produced here. Better to have our needs met in Scunthorpe than Baoshan, surely.

Industry veterans are sceptical about the Government’s Net Zero priorities. David Amoss, who spent 30 years working in Scunthorpe, points out: “The steel’s still got to be made and it may as well be made in Scunthorpe as in the Far East. I find this carbon footprint thing an absolute distraction and a nonsense. Not that I don’t believe we’re destroying our own planet, but if we don’t do it someone else is going to.” Steel that is not made here will just be made in another country, perhaps one with weaker environmental safeguards, and boosting their economy instead of ours. Steve Cook concurs: “From a global point of view, it’s just shifting the problem elsewhere.” Besides, closing down both furnaces could cost more than £1 billion.

Manufacturing has long been a victim of modern Britain’s focus on service industries over making things the world both needs and wants. “If steel does go, as a manufacturing country we’re buggered,” says Amoss. “I fail to understand how any country can really exist with any sort of wealth if it doesn’t make anything and consumes a lot.” To those who built their lives around industries like steel, today’s Britain can seem an unkind as well as unwise country, ungratefully casting off its past and recklessly mortgaging its future in the interests of expedience and profit.

The story of steel in Scunthorpe is unique, but it echoes that of the North’s, or Wales’s, mining communities. Our nation is replete with towns like this: so strongly associated with its industry that it is almost impossible to envisage existence without it. After 150 years of unglamorous and unrelenting endeavour, Scunthorpe’s whole reason-to-be has suddenly become ethically suspect, its Britain-building citizens at risk of being abandoned. Can a forward-looking national realism, drawing on an old sense of obligation, compete with today’s green and globalised agenda? This time-tempered town is not the only one nervously awaiting an answer to that question.


Derek Turner is a novelist and reviewer. His first non-fiction book, Edge of England: Landfall in Lincolnshire, has just been published by Hurst.
derekturner1964

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Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

NetZero 2050 is enshrined in our law. Keeping steelworks open is not. Personally, I know that NetZero 2050 is a nonsense but what I think is irrelevant because I will die and children will be brainwashed at primary school.

Yesterday, a really mild comment I posted about the Trans issue was taken out by UnHerd censors , presumably because Trans people would not like criticism of their group. On the same story quite nasty criticism of feminism was left standing there for all to see.

I predict that UnHerders have about 1 year to say that NetZero 2050 is nonsense and then the comments will be taken out because they will upset people. This is censorship in the extreme. It reminds me of Germany in the 1930s.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Sadly the whole business of censorship, and it is a business as well as part of the prevailing ideology, is a taboo subject. I have repeatedly suggested that an article on how and why moderation operates here and on other comment forums would make an interesting article but without the slightest response from Unherd. To what extent is signing up to woke leaning algorithms a requirement of being a publisher today? An important discussion I would have thought, but perhaps it delves too deeply into the compromises that publishers have to make that their readers might not approve of.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

There’s a proposal before parliament now which would enable employees to demand compensation from their employers if they hear distressing things in the workplace. The example of a barrista overhearing offensive conversation has been mentioned.
If this becomes law I suppose forums like this will be finished. Who would risk publishing an opinion that might offend someone?

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

If Unherd’s moderation becomes woke leaning then who is going to pay a subscription for to be told what to say. I get exasperated with the Microsoft News’ forum for being told “Something went wrong” amongst other gobbledegook from its AI. No chance to talk about vaccines. Our American masters will not allow it.

D Glover
D Glover
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

There’s a proposal before parliament now which would enable employees to demand compensation from their employers if they hear distressing things in the workplace. The example of a barrista overhearing offensive conversation has been mentioned.
If this becomes law I suppose forums like this will be finished. Who would risk publishing an opinion that might offend someone?

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

If Unherd’s moderation becomes woke leaning then who is going to pay a subscription for to be told what to say. I get exasperated with the Microsoft News’ forum for being told “Something went wrong” amongst other gobbledegook from its AI. No chance to talk about vaccines. Our American masters will not allow it.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I’ve said it to you before but I’m going to say it again: does NetZero necessarily have to be regressive? Does ‘green’ need to be globalist? I’m personally for keeping the steel industry for all the reasons above, but why stop there? Why not expand into creating green industries, based on our competitive advantages (e.g. our massive wind power potential), giving us skilled jobs and for workers, as for those in steel mentioned above, ‘a confidence borne of mastering dangerous elements for their own and everyone’s benefit?’
As to the removal of that comment – is it still removed? Comments are taken down all the time on here and then put back up the next day. I think it’s done as a sort of spot check – I haven’t noticed a pattern in the comments of mine which have been removed (apart from the one which said the Daily Mail, and by extension their Harmsworth family owners, had supported the Nazis – but maybe because that’s verifiable (and so not libellous?) the comment was reposted). I agree though that it would be better if the censors were more transparent about what they’re doing.

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I agree with the spirit of your question. But the point to me is that our government will try to achieve NetZero as if they were playing a game of football. They will lie and cheat, fall over and pretend to be injured – anything to get there.
Random questions:
1) We aren’t allowed to burn anything. Does NetZero mean that we will export our rubbish for other countries to burn? Ask your local council where your recycling is being done and how. I’ll bet they won’t answer.
2) NetZero means carbon credits. Research this. Airlines are offering for you to pay them extra money to earn carbon credits. They are audited on this. They give the money to companies who say they will plant trees in the Southern Hemisphere. People have followed this money. Yes, young trees are being planted as old trees are still being cut down. Deforestation has not slowed. Who is kidding who? Older mature trees are being cut down and replaced by saplings.
The problem for me is not NetZero, nor green jobs. The problem is that governments will lie and cheat to get there.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

With you on the carbon credits and recycling skulduggery – a lot of work has been done to show that the former at least are (at the moment!) based on a lot of hopeful thinking. I’m not ready though to abandon the case for green reindustrialisation or for at least building the UK’s protections against climate change – and I fear that all this bashing of NetZero is maligning the environmental movement as a whole which is now, with cruel irony, being painted as elitist when it’s the poor who will suffer most from climate change.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

You see, I think we are agreeing. I am 100% for tackling the damage we are doing. But there may be more important issues today, like getting rid of plastic from our oceans, like tackling people who tip all their waste in the countryside.
The big fraud is not the point of tackling our problems, it is the sheer disgust I have with this political NetZero target. It is just a heap of lies. People have to be told the truth and, MOST importantly, what is expected of each individual.
To be boring, I will give you an example. There is an area in the west where huge wind farms have been built in the sea. But people will not allow these to be connected to the power grid. There are NIMBYs out there who nod when you say, “NetZero” as long as they don’t have to do anything. Enough.

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

To give you another example people in my Shire are against building a new Reservoir. They insist the Water company fix the leaks first. But there are huge new housing estates being built all around the shire all pulling off one reservoir. Not difficult to see the “people” saying climate change is to blame. Building extra reservoirs will not bankrupt the UK but the unfunded cost of Net Zero by financially illiterate MP’s will.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Sounds sensible. Are those local inhabitants preventing the connection of turbines to the grid through planning consultations, as with housing? In which case it’s another argument for adopting the zoning practices they have in the Netherlands and Germany maybe.

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

To give you another example people in my Shire are against building a new Reservoir. They insist the Water company fix the leaks first. But there are huge new housing estates being built all around the shire all pulling off one reservoir. Not difficult to see the “people” saying climate change is to blame. Building extra reservoirs will not bankrupt the UK but the unfunded cost of Net Zero by financially illiterate MP’s will.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Sounds sensible. Are those local inhabitants preventing the connection of turbines to the grid through planning consultations, as with housing? In which case it’s another argument for adopting the zoning practices they have in the Netherlands and Germany maybe.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

You see, I think we are agreeing. I am 100% for tackling the damage we are doing. But there may be more important issues today, like getting rid of plastic from our oceans, like tackling people who tip all their waste in the countryside.
The big fraud is not the point of tackling our problems, it is the sheer disgust I have with this political NetZero target. It is just a heap of lies. People have to be told the truth and, MOST importantly, what is expected of each individual.
To be boring, I will give you an example. There is an area in the west where huge wind farms have been built in the sea. But people will not allow these to be connected to the power grid. There are NIMBYs out there who nod when you say, “NetZero” as long as they don’t have to do anything. Enough.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

With you on the carbon credits and recycling skulduggery – a lot of work has been done to show that the former at least are (at the moment!) based on a lot of hopeful thinking. I’m not ready though to abandon the case for green reindustrialisation or for at least building the UK’s protections against climate change – and I fear that all this bashing of NetZero is maligning the environmental movement as a whole which is now, with cruel irony, being painted as elitist when it’s the poor who will suffer most from climate change.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I agree with the spirit of your question. But the point to me is that our government will try to achieve NetZero as if they were playing a game of football. They will lie and cheat, fall over and pretend to be injured – anything to get there.
Random questions:
1) We aren’t allowed to burn anything. Does NetZero mean that we will export our rubbish for other countries to burn? Ask your local council where your recycling is being done and how. I’ll bet they won’t answer.
2) NetZero means carbon credits. Research this. Airlines are offering for you to pay them extra money to earn carbon credits. They are audited on this. They give the money to companies who say they will plant trees in the Southern Hemisphere. People have followed this money. Yes, young trees are being planted as old trees are still being cut down. Deforestation has not slowed. Who is kidding who? Older mature trees are being cut down and replaced by saplings.
The problem for me is not NetZero, nor green jobs. The problem is that governments will lie and cheat to get there.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Sadly the whole business of censorship, and it is a business as well as part of the prevailing ideology, is a taboo subject. I have repeatedly suggested that an article on how and why moderation operates here and on other comment forums would make an interesting article but without the slightest response from Unherd. To what extent is signing up to woke leaning algorithms a requirement of being a publisher today? An important discussion I would have thought, but perhaps it delves too deeply into the compromises that publishers have to make that their readers might not approve of.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I’ve said it to you before but I’m going to say it again: does NetZero necessarily have to be regressive? Does ‘green’ need to be globalist? I’m personally for keeping the steel industry for all the reasons above, but why stop there? Why not expand into creating green industries, based on our competitive advantages (e.g. our massive wind power potential), giving us skilled jobs and for workers, as for those in steel mentioned above, ‘a confidence borne of mastering dangerous elements for their own and everyone’s benefit?’
As to the removal of that comment – is it still removed? Comments are taken down all the time on here and then put back up the next day. I think it’s done as a sort of spot check – I haven’t noticed a pattern in the comments of mine which have been removed (apart from the one which said the Daily Mail, and by extension their Harmsworth family owners, had supported the Nazis – but maybe because that’s verifiable (and so not libellous?) the comment was reposted). I agree though that it would be better if the censors were more transparent about what they’re doing.

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

NetZero 2050 is enshrined in our law. Keeping steelworks open is not. Personally, I know that NetZero 2050 is a nonsense but what I think is irrelevant because I will die and children will be brainwashed at primary school.

Yesterday, a really mild comment I posted about the Trans issue was taken out by UnHerd censors , presumably because Trans people would not like criticism of their group. On the same story quite nasty criticism of feminism was left standing there for all to see.

I predict that UnHerders have about 1 year to say that NetZero 2050 is nonsense and then the comments will be taken out because they will upset people. This is censorship in the extreme. It reminds me of Germany in the 1930s.

Lukas Nel
Lukas Nel
1 year ago

Net Zero is pie in the sky silliness. Steel is something tangible and should not be sacrificed on the green altar

Lukas Nel
Lukas Nel
1 year ago

Net Zero is pie in the sky silliness. Steel is something tangible and should not be sacrificed on the green altar

Ian McKinney
Ian McKinney
1 year ago

“I fail to understand how any country can really exist with any sort of wealth if it doesn’t make anything and consumes a lot.”

100% correct!

Add to that the insatiable desire for cheap labour from the EU and now Albania etc, the remittances going overseas, continued reliance on foreign technology and foreign investment – we are an upside down pyramid of a nation and it could collapse at any moment.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian McKinney

The question is did you in the 2019 election trust this government (whose vision for a global Britain seems to be pushing them towards accepting investment from countries like China, mentioned above) more with the task of protecting jobs in industry than Corbyn’s Labour, which promised a Green New Deal and the creation of green skilled jobs?

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

anyone who seriously wanted to vote for Corbyn – didnt have the first understanding of what Corbyn and his henchmen have been up to for their past 40 years.
It beggars belief that time after time Starmer declared ”100% confidence” in Corbyn many, many times (is this a tortoligy?) and the moment Corbyn was throguh the door – Starmer (rightly) ditched the madness of the Corbyn dream.
Now we have a born liar and a ”man”? – who cannot confirm what a woman is – likely to be our next PM.

Ian McKinney
Ian McKinney
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Sadly, a t**d rolled in glitter remains a t**d.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian McKinney

And it’s thanks to the refined thinking of you two fine gentlemen (I think it’s safe to assume) that we now have a government far more honest than Corbyn’s would ever have been, with his mad, acceptable-to-much-of-western-Europe ideas.
Is it a tautology? At phrase level, not necessarily, unless you think confidence is always entire (and then the 100% becomes redundant). In the context of his repetition of the phrase – yes it is. Of course we can’t accuse Johnson of the same thing. He only once promised the 40 new hospitals which he never built, maybe because he has more respect for our time or because he’s more careful with his language? Difficult to say

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

My understanding is that Hospital trusts pay for new Hospitals through the PFI scheme and will continue to pay for them up until 2040. Not too difficult to understand why they cannot afford new Equipment.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Martin

A government that always has billions to spare for its incompetent friends in the PPE VIP lane, but not enough for the people they’re meant to serve?

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Martin

Either hospitals take a sort of ”mortgage” as many people do on their homes, so we get 40 hospitals – or we (tax payer) can pay cash for each development and we get 2 hospitals – you choose.

The first hospital I talked about above, in fact we paid for that ourselves from built up reserves and by selling a chunk of our unused/unsuitable victorian assets (which we keep the freehold on) and we now have chrysalis right now turning into a butterfly.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Martin

A government that always has billions to spare for its incompetent friends in the PPE VIP lane, but not enough for the people they’re meant to serve?

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Martin

Either hospitals take a sort of ”mortgage” as many people do on their homes, so we get 40 hospitals – or we (tax payer) can pay cash for each development and we get 2 hospitals – you choose.

The first hospital I talked about above, in fact we paid for that ourselves from built up reserves and by selling a chunk of our unused/unsuitable victorian assets (which we keep the freehold on) and we now have chrysalis right now turning into a butterfly.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Hold on a second. you dont build ”40 hospitals” in 12 months. It takes a year to get it throguh planning thats after a year with the architects.
In fact I am directly involved in probably the FIRST of the 40 central London – its a fabulous facility – we hope we will complete Septemebr 2023. The others were promised and on track for 2030.
https://moorfieldseyecharity.org.uk/about-us/oriel – copy/paste that link for project Oriel Moorfields – which I am also involved in – it will be a magnificant jewel when its finished.
I know what I am talking about.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

That’s a fair point, and I wish you all the best with that. But as I understand, because many of the 40 hospital building projects are rebuilds and extensions, it was a dishonest use of the word ‘new’ when he promised 40 new ones:
https://www.bbc.com/news/59372348

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

That’s a fair point, and I wish you all the best with that. But as I understand, because many of the 40 hospital building projects are rebuilds and extensions, it was a dishonest use of the word ‘new’ when he promised 40 new ones:
https://www.bbc.com/news/59372348

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

My understanding is that Hospital trusts pay for new Hospitals through the PFI scheme and will continue to pay for them up until 2040. Not too difficult to understand why they cannot afford new Equipment.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Hold on a second. you dont build ”40 hospitals” in 12 months. It takes a year to get it throguh planning thats after a year with the architects.
In fact I am directly involved in probably the FIRST of the 40 central London – its a fabulous facility – we hope we will complete Septemebr 2023. The others were promised and on track for 2030.
https://moorfieldseyecharity.org.uk/about-us/oriel – copy/paste that link for project Oriel Moorfields – which I am also involved in – it will be a magnificant jewel when its finished.
I know what I am talking about.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian McKinney

And it’s thanks to the refined thinking of you two fine gentlemen (I think it’s safe to assume) that we now have a government far more honest than Corbyn’s would ever have been, with his mad, acceptable-to-much-of-western-Europe ideas.
Is it a tautology? At phrase level, not necessarily, unless you think confidence is always entire (and then the 100% becomes redundant). In the context of his repetition of the phrase – yes it is. Of course we can’t accuse Johnson of the same thing. He only once promised the 40 new hospitals which he never built, maybe because he has more respect for our time or because he’s more careful with his language? Difficult to say

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

anyone who seriously wanted to vote for Corbyn – didnt have the first understanding of what Corbyn and his henchmen have been up to for their past 40 years.
It beggars belief that time after time Starmer declared ”100% confidence” in Corbyn many, many times (is this a tortoligy?) and the moment Corbyn was throguh the door – Starmer (rightly) ditched the madness of the Corbyn dream.
Now we have a born liar and a ”man”? – who cannot confirm what a woman is – likely to be our next PM.

Ian McKinney
Ian McKinney
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Sadly, a t**d rolled in glitter remains a t**d.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian McKinney

The question is did you in the 2019 election trust this government (whose vision for a global Britain seems to be pushing them towards accepting investment from countries like China, mentioned above) more with the task of protecting jobs in industry than Corbyn’s Labour, which promised a Green New Deal and the creation of green skilled jobs?

Ian McKinney
Ian McKinney
1 year ago

“I fail to understand how any country can really exist with any sort of wealth if it doesn’t make anything and consumes a lot.”

100% correct!

Add to that the insatiable desire for cheap labour from the EU and now Albania etc, the remittances going overseas, continued reliance on foreign technology and foreign investment – we are an upside down pyramid of a nation and it could collapse at any moment.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

I personally find the talk of UK moving towards services because of “competitive advantages” to be a bit hilarious.

Because, based on more interactions with “service providers” than I would have preferred, if anything a lot of the services industry – especially administration, government run sectors and even large parts of hospitality and retail – are far more uncompetitive than British industry and Engineering when compared to China or India

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

I personally find the talk of UK moving towards services because of “competitive advantages” to be a bit hilarious.

Because, based on more interactions with “service providers” than I would have preferred, if anything a lot of the services industry – especially administration, government run sectors and even large parts of hospitality and retail – are far more uncompetitive than British industry and Engineering when compared to China or India

F Hugh Eveleigh
F Hugh Eveleigh
1 year ago

Net zero will be the death of the UK as we know it – if it doesn’t fall sick from other causes in the meanwhile. A groundlessly based policy passed by parliament without much ado and of no use to the climate and certainly no use to the economy. What with it and HS2 and millions of immigrants our infrastructures collapse, our lives affected for the worse and yet we go on and on down the same path. As for British steel, once it goes then China and others have the open door as it will manufacture, using as much carbon as needed, all of our needs – or not and therein the problem. Self-sufficiency will have gone and we become dependent on a communist-based superpower. Talk of madness!
I shall vote Reform UK.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Reform UK? Are they promising to protect British jobs? What support has Farage shown British workers apart from making them angry about foreign ones? During the rail strikes, when workers of the RMT and other unions were asking for better job security and wages (exactly what they had hoped to achieve through Brexit), was Farage on their side? Maybe Tice will be better but I’ve never heard economic policies from Farage that show support for ordinary working people.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago

Reform UK? Are they promising to protect British jobs? What support has Farage shown British workers apart from making them angry about foreign ones? During the rail strikes, when workers of the RMT and other unions were asking for better job security and wages (exactly what they had hoped to achieve through Brexit), was Farage on their side? Maybe Tice will be better but I’ve never heard economic policies from Farage that show support for ordinary working people.

F Hugh Eveleigh
F Hugh Eveleigh
1 year ago

Net zero will be the death of the UK as we know it – if it doesn’t fall sick from other causes in the meanwhile. A groundlessly based policy passed by parliament without much ado and of no use to the climate and certainly no use to the economy. What with it and HS2 and millions of immigrants our infrastructures collapse, our lives affected for the worse and yet we go on and on down the same path. As for British steel, once it goes then China and others have the open door as it will manufacture, using as much carbon as needed, all of our needs – or not and therein the problem. Self-sufficiency will have gone and we become dependent on a communist-based superpower. Talk of madness!
I shall vote Reform UK.

Dugan E
Dugan E
1 year ago

I was ‘furnace wrecking’ there in ’75. In the re-heaters, not the blast furnaces.First man in, aged 20, after the furnace had been switched off for 12 hours. My suede desert boots (only helmets were issued as safety wear) left a line of melted rubber smoking footprints. Half an hour in, half an hour out. The rolling mill had regular accidents. White hot lengths of wire speeding along the line would hit a rolling bank and snake through the air, no warning, just stay on your toes!!
Incidentally, Rileys Crisps, salt n’ shake only!

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Dugan E

Incredible – did you feel ‘a confidence borne of mastering dangerous elements for your own and everyone’s benefit?’ Or do you think these skilled industrial jobs are romanticised these days?

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  Dugan E

Incredible – did you feel ‘a confidence borne of mastering dangerous elements for your own and everyone’s benefit?’ Or do you think these skilled industrial jobs are romanticised these days?

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Dugan E
Dugan E
1 year ago

I was ‘furnace wrecking’ there in ’75. In the re-heaters, not the blast furnaces.First man in, aged 20, after the furnace had been switched off for 12 hours. My suede desert boots (only helmets were issued as safety wear) left a line of melted rubber smoking footprints. Half an hour in, half an hour out. The rolling mill had regular accidents. White hot lengths of wire speeding along the line would hit a rolling bank and snake through the air, no warning, just stay on your toes!!
Incidentally, Rileys Crisps, salt n’ shake only!

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago

Sweden’s SSAB steelmaker is planning to build a prototype Steelworks in Northern Sweden using fossil-free electricity and hydrogen instead of coke by 2026, also converting existing plants. https://www.ssab.com/en/company/sustainability/first-in-fossil-free-steel/timeline

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

And so, therefore.. NetZero does not have to be a drag on the economy or a punishment on ordinary people, right? You dribbled the ball to the box there and then forgot to shoot methinks..

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I’m not commenting on NetZero, rather on possible alternatives for steel production as an alternative to shutting down and letting the Chinese produce even more CO2. The NetZero debate is full of ignorance and denial on both sides making it futile to advance any thoughts or opinions on this.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Britain’s carbon output makes not one jot of difference: our air quality is perfectly adequate, and the sandaloid net zero obsession is just a sad religion come tribe that the inadequate who need some quasi religion, cling to.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

‘full of ignorance and denial on both sides’ – Just hearing that makes me want to know your opinions on it, but I won’t hassle you!

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Not so much opinions but hard facts although debateable. W Antarctica and Greenland hold approx. 12-15m of sea level rise from melting ice and much of the Antarctic ice is not resting on bedrock, aiding melting. If warming which is taking place takes 50 years or 500 for this melting is another matter but the populations of the Maldives and maybe Miami/New Orleans might be more worried than most of us. If humanity hadn’t built so many cities and other settlements on the coast then it would be less of a problem. Then there’s the overall increase in temperature affecting 3rd world populations and wildlife, but that doesn’t bother us living in Western cities. The modelling done as a basis for decision making is probably deficient but the need for change seems obvious and it has to be dramatic, but unless China, India and the US take the lead, then anything else done is futile. The NetZero campaign and any other panic initiatives are just like most countries’ handling of the pandemic, lacking in balance and common sense. It’s ironic that the Greens and environmentalists have just made things worse through their opposition to nuclear. There, I’ve already said too much, and I don’t have any solutions apart from massive investments in nuclear, solar, wind and HVDC long distance links from the deserts to where the electricity is needed. I’ve spent 10 years towards the end of my working career studying Geoscience at University evening classes just for fun: oceanography, glacialogy, deserts, Antarctica, vulcanology, geology, life development (last 400M years including 3 mass extinction events), global climate development. It’s all interconnected and the planet as such will survive anything for the next 2-3 billion years, but the species on the surface won’t. Maybe another war will make the problem irrelevant.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Christ. Fair to say this whole comment section has made me more keen on net zero and less keen on NetZero

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Christ. Fair to say this whole comment section has made me more keen on net zero and less keen on NetZero

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

Not so much opinions but hard facts although debateable. W Antarctica and Greenland hold approx. 12-15m of sea level rise from melting ice and much of the Antarctic ice is not resting on bedrock, aiding melting. If warming which is taking place takes 50 years or 500 for this melting is another matter but the populations of the Maldives and maybe Miami/New Orleans might be more worried than most of us. If humanity hadn’t built so many cities and other settlements on the coast then it would be less of a problem. Then there’s the overall increase in temperature affecting 3rd world populations and wildlife, but that doesn’t bother us living in Western cities. The modelling done as a basis for decision making is probably deficient but the need for change seems obvious and it has to be dramatic, but unless China, India and the US take the lead, then anything else done is futile. The NetZero campaign and any other panic initiatives are just like most countries’ handling of the pandemic, lacking in balance and common sense. It’s ironic that the Greens and environmentalists have just made things worse through their opposition to nuclear. There, I’ve already said too much, and I don’t have any solutions apart from massive investments in nuclear, solar, wind and HVDC long distance links from the deserts to where the electricity is needed. I’ve spent 10 years towards the end of my working career studying Geoscience at University evening classes just for fun: oceanography, glacialogy, deserts, Antarctica, vulcanology, geology, life development (last 400M years including 3 mass extinction events), global climate development. It’s all interconnected and the planet as such will survive anything for the next 2-3 billion years, but the species on the surface won’t. Maybe another war will make the problem irrelevant.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Britain’s carbon output makes not one jot of difference: our air quality is perfectly adequate, and the sandaloid net zero obsession is just a sad religion come tribe that the inadequate who need some quasi religion, cling to.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

‘full of ignorance and denial on both sides’ – Just hearing that makes me want to know your opinions on it, but I won’t hassle you!

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Desmond Wolf

I’m not commenting on NetZero, rather on possible alternatives for steel production as an alternative to shutting down and letting the Chinese produce even more CO2. The NetZero debate is full of ignorance and denial on both sides making it futile to advance any thoughts or opinions on this.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Read carefully.
They are not going “fossil free”.

Just shifting the CO2 emissions upstream to electricity production rather than at the mills. And seems like a lot of capex. Which of course will be passed on to Swedish industry, making Volvo and co uncompetitive

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Yes they are. Most of the steelworks are in Northern Sweden where there is a glut of hydro and windpower with large wind turbine parks. Very little of Sweden’s electricity generation comes from fossil fuels, mainly only on cold winter days at peak consumption.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Yes, but look at the population of Sweden, particularly the population density. I would bet that Finland wouldn’t have a problem either.

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

It’s the industries and transport which are the big CO2 emitters. The population is mainly in the south but the ”green” energy production is mainly in the north. So the Greens and Socialists decided to shut down half of the nuclear reactors, all in the south, in the name of environmental good! The south now has supply issues and they’re not so keen on noisy (not so) wind turbines there but they still want the electricity. Finland is fairly flat and doesn’t have a lot of hydro power but they at least have kept their nuclear power.

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

It’s the industries and transport which are the big CO2 emitters. The population is mainly in the south but the ”green” energy production is mainly in the north. So the Greens and Socialists decided to shut down half of the nuclear reactors, all in the south, in the name of environmental good! The south now has supply issues and they’re not so keen on noisy (not so) wind turbines there but they still want the electricity. Finland is fairly flat and doesn’t have a lot of hydro power but they at least have kept their nuclear power.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Yes, but look at the population of Sweden, particularly the population density. I would bet that Finland wouldn’t have a problem either.

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Yes they are. Most of the steelworks are in Northern Sweden where there is a glut of hydro and windpower with large wind turbine parks. Very little of Sweden’s electricity generation comes from fossil fuels, mainly only on cold winter days at peak consumption.

Desmond Wolf
Desmond Wolf
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

And so, therefore.. NetZero does not have to be a drag on the economy or a punishment on ordinary people, right? You dribbled the ball to the box there and then forgot to shoot methinks..

Last edited 1 year ago by Desmond Wolf
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

Read carefully.
They are not going “fossil free”.

Just shifting the CO2 emissions upstream to electricity production rather than at the mills. And seems like a lot of capex. Which of course will be passed on to Swedish industry, making Volvo and co uncompetitive

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago

Sweden’s SSAB steelmaker is planning to build a prototype Steelworks in Northern Sweden using fossil-free electricity and hydrogen instead of coke by 2026, also converting existing plants. https://www.ssab.com/en/company/sustainability/first-in-fossil-free-steel/timeline

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

”Scunthorpe was renowned” Sadly, far too many places and industries in UK are was– or ‘has beens’ (as are other developed countries – US for example).

A couple of weeks ago I took a train from NYC to Philly – I was totally shocked on that short journey, to see the quantity of devastated of once great proud multilevel – enormous – brick built factories.
The faded names on the exteriors were once proud employers of their areas – the ubiquitous rusting watertanks towering above the buildings, was indeed a metaphor to the ‘developed’ world. I hope the buildings can be ‘re-purposed’ – but sadly the watertanks thjemselves are past saving.

Without a UK based Steel Industry we are (I agree) destined to exclude ourselves from manufacturing.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

Scunthorpe.. how ironic that the town contains the word that aptly describes the saddoe net zero sandaloid eco lemmings!

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

Scunthorpe.. how ironic that the town contains the word that aptly describes the saddoe net zero sandaloid eco lemmings!

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

”Scunthorpe was renowned” Sadly, far too many places and industries in UK are was– or ‘has beens’ (as are other developed countries – US for example).

A couple of weeks ago I took a train from NYC to Philly – I was totally shocked on that short journey, to see the quantity of devastated of once great proud multilevel – enormous – brick built factories.
The faded names on the exteriors were once proud employers of their areas – the ubiquitous rusting watertanks towering above the buildings, was indeed a metaphor to the ‘developed’ world. I hope the buildings can be ‘re-purposed’ – but sadly the watertanks thjemselves are past saving.

Without a UK based Steel Industry we are (I agree) destined to exclude ourselves from manufacturing.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Peter Lee
Peter Lee
1 year ago

I hate to say this but ‘If you want to know what makes sense, see what China is doing’

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Lee

.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Peter Lee
Peter Lee
1 year ago

I hate to say this but ‘If you want to know what makes sense, see what China is doing’

Mark Goodhand
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago

“From a global point of view, it’s just shifting the problem elsewhere.”

This is obvious, but our politicians pretend not to see it.

It’s hard to understand why any government would pursue Local Net Zero.

Mark Goodhand
Mark Goodhand
1 year ago

“From a global point of view, it’s just shifting the problem elsewhere.”

This is obvious, but our politicians pretend not to see it.

It’s hard to understand why any government would pursue Local Net Zero.