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How the UK sacrificed its car industry Our manufacturing sector is dying a needless death

We are stuck in the slow lane (Giles Barnard/Construction Photography/Avalon/Getty Images)

We are stuck in the slow lane (Giles Barnard/Construction Photography/Avalon/Getty Images)


February 15, 2023   7 mins

Will Britain, as Rishi Sunak and Jeremy Hunt have both promised, really turn into the “next Silicon Valley”? It is bold talk. Some might say Panglossian. Although in truth, perhaps it’s to be expected from a weak administration troubled by divisions, haunted by former leaders and struggling to shake off the impression that it is the last-gasp government of a party worn out after largely wasting 13 years in power.

But we should not be too harsh on Sunak and Hunt, even if their supposed plans to turbocharge growth through harnessing of technology look skeletal. Prime ministers must pretend to have purpose while chancellors must talk up economic prospects by pushing back against tides of negativity. After the latest data showed Britain’s economy to be flatlining rather than contracting, Hunt insisted it was “more resilient than many feared”. But if you really want to see the sorry state of our economy and our nation’s struggles to adapt to the fast-changing world, take a look at one sector that is laden with national symbolism and long been a bellwether for our economic health.

This is the British car industry, a production hub reliant on sophisticated supply lines and a proven beacon of innovation. It is a sector that has shown an uncanny ability to reflect the zeitgeist through its rollercoaster ups and downs since the Second World War. It boomed after the birth of mass motoring, then crashed in spectacular style amid industrial strife, before its careful restoration with a woman driver at the wheel. Now it is being allowed to rot again, partly thanks to the stewardship of a glossy magazine’s former motoring columnist. Perhaps we should have been more alarmed by Boris Johnson’s cavalier approach to cars when we discovered he had racked up £4,000 in parking tickets for GQ.

Once it was the world’s second biggest, but now our shrivelling car sector has sunk to the fringe of the top 20, just behind Slovakia and one place ahead of Iran. Last year, we produced 775,014 cars. This was the fewest since 1956 — a time when an Austin A30 cost £529, a gallon of petrol was 22p (or four shillings and six pence in “old money”) and there were no motorways. There were only 3.3 million drivers, roughly one-tenth of the numbers cramming our roads today, some no doubt humming along to that year’s biggest hit by Pat Boone. Almost all their cars were made in this country by five makers — Nuffield/BMC, Ford, Rootes, Standard-Triumph and Vauxhall — and three of them were British-owned.

Britain also possessed a thriving collection of smaller-scale makers with more than 60 marques, such as Aston-Martin, Jaguar, Jensen, Lotus and Rolls-Royce — more than any other country. Think of the swinging Sixties and you might think of stylish Minis, an icon of British culture born in 1959 that was such a clever and distinctive design it was acclaimed as the most influential car of the 20th century after the Ford Model T. Or the gorgeous E-Type Jaguar, which even the great Enzo Ferrari acclaimed as “the most beautiful car ever made” after its launch in 1961.

Yet at start of that glitzy decade, barely a generation after the war’s end, our car production slid below Germany. Four years later, Daihatsu’s Compagno became the first Japanese car on sale in this country, and by the mid-Seventies — when, badly managed and beset by strikes, we had sunk to sixth place in the global league table as car manufacturers — it became a sorry totem for the disturbing decline of British industry. Post-imperial Britain seemed to be slumped in a gloomy haze of mediocrity, driving haplessly along the slippery road to nowhere. It felt like the whole country was in a slow-motion tailspin.

Nothing symbolised this pervasive sense of despair and dysfunction more than British Leyland. The conglomerate — which brought together brands such as Austin, Mini, Morris, Rover and Jaguar into one supposed national champion — was spared from bankruptcy in 1975 by nationalisation. It was infamous for poor management, dire industrial relations and toxic union firebrands such as Derek “Red Robbo” Robinson. The cars it churned out were often shoddy — just as Japan was ironing out flaws in its vehicles as an emerging industrial superpower. Even clunky but cheap Soviet-built Ladas started selling decently in Britain, a damning indictment of our own state-run behemoth. No wonder the floundering firm became the butt of jokes in Fawlty Towers.

The car industry, like the wider economy, was salvaged during Margaret Thatcher’s controversial reign. She opened the nation’s doors to globalisation, sold off or shut down nationalised industries, brutally stripped away barriers to trade and slashed the power of union barons. But she was also sufficiently pragmatic to recognise the role of targeted state aid — as shown with her leading part in persuading Nissan to open its landmark plant in Sunderland by throwing in subsidies, lobbying both its boss and the Japanese prime minister to land the deal and then opening the site. Honda had already started production in Swindon on a site that once built Spitfire planes, Toyota soon followed suit in Derbyshire. The prime minister used their arrival to show that Britain was on the road to revival as a stable European base for industry.

This sparked a renaissance for Britain’s car industry that lasted three decades, with famous traditional marques often falling into foreign hands. When owners from overseas arrived to buy up dreary brands such as Rover, there was talk of betrayal and sell-out on both Left and Right. Yet car makers from Germany, India, Japan and the United States invested heavily, creating an impressive cluster of innovation that rippled through the economy. By 2015, Britain was the base for more manufacturers than anywhere else in Europe, with seven big carmakers, eight premium producers, nine bus builders and scores of niche manufacturers. Such was its importance that eight of the 11 Formula One teams were based in the country, many of them in a cluster around Oxford, to exploit the cutting-edge technology.

This success was led by exports, with sales abroad doubling in a decade, while the 160,000 workers — once infamous for the speed at which they downed tools — had become among the most productive car makers in Europe. Foreign owners skilfully exploited British heritage brands, such as the Minis I saw churned out at the celebrated Cowley car plant in Oxford following their revival by BMW. This was the place where almost a century earlier a former bicycle maker called William Morris had pioneered Britain’s use of Henry Ford’s mass production techniques. But Cowley had also gone on to reflect the industry’s turbulent history with six far-Left splinter groups fighting for shop floor supremacy in the dismal Seventies.

When I visited a decade ago, however, it was a beacon of industrial modernity. ‘‘If we had not changed, we wouldn’t have had any jobs here,” said union convenor Chris Bond, a former member of the Workers’ Revolutionary Party. The high-tech plant had 513 robots in the body shop alone. It employed 3,700 “associates”, all clad in the same black jackets with MINI on the back — admittedly a fraction of the huge numbers working there before, but there had not been an industrial dispute for almost three decades and everyone received bonuses. I was struck when one woman told me she had previously worked in the NHS where “it felt far more like I was working on a production line”.

Since then, however, the industry’s decline has been precipitous, down 10% last year alone and more than halving since the country voted to leave the European Union in 2016. The UK is no longer a major player in the car industry; only yesterday, Ford announced plans to cut 1,300 jobs in the UK over the next three years. Nissans and Toyotas still roll off British production lines, but Honda has departed from Swindon after producing 3.7 million cars on the site, while Nissan ditched its promise to build the next X-Trail SUV in Sunderland. Elon Musk chose Berlin over Britain for his first Tesla factory in Europe. Five months ago, BMW added to the gloom by announcing the end of electric Mini production in Cowley, although it is continuing with petrol and diesel cars until they are banned from sale in seven years’ time.

Clearly Brexit has been a significant factor. Musk stated that the vote made it “too risky” to open his plant, as well as a research and development base, in Britain. Honda denied its closure decision was tied to the rupture with Brussels, but this is a highly complex industry that boomed off the back of the single European market driven so determinedly by Thatcher, with firms relying on Britain for skilled workers and looser labour regulations but on Europe for sales and many components. The crankshaft for one of those Minis I saw being built crossed the Channel three times before installation in Cowley. The slightest friction for such production techniques can be catastrophic for an industry reliant on low margins and high volumes.

It is no coincidence that car production hit a two-decade high in 2016, when 80% of the vehicles were exported and more than half sold in European Union countries. Yet Brexit is just one of the problems facing the industry; it was also hit hard by China’s Covid lockdowns, which impacted supply chains and resulted in a chronic global shortage of semiconductors. And all this disruption came just as the industry was engulfed by a technological revolution, with rapid acceleration into the age of electrical vehicles.

In this brave new world of electric vehicles, assembly plants need batteries from giant production houses known as gigafactories. Ideally, these need to be located nearby since batteries are big and heavy. Yet Britain currently has only one Chinese-owned plant being built next to the Nissan factory in Sunderland. At least 35 are planned or under construction in the European Union, with three in Hungary alone. There was huge hype over Britishvolt, a £3.8 billion beacon of post-Brexit levelling up policies in Northumberland intended to deliver 300,000 battery packs a year. Johnson typically talked it up, claiming Britain would be a world leader in electric cars, “creating hundreds of thousands of jobs”. Then it ran out of money, the Government refused to bail it out, and it collapsed last month.

Andy Palmer, former head of Aston Martin, told the BBC that its collapse was an “unmitigated disaster for the auto industry in the UK”, and he predicted firms would migrate to where batteries are being made. But to put Britishvolt’s demise in perspective, even this ambitious start-up was planned to deliver less than one-fifth of the capacity by 2030 anticipated from two plants in Germany — Tesla’s gigafactory in Berlin plus another being developed by a Chinese firm that is the world’s biggest electronic vehicle battery maker.

Now, think again about the Mini. The first electric version was built at Cowley plant three years ago, but soon all electric models of this British icon will be coming off production lines in Leipzig and eastern China. Last month also saw more troubling news: the pioneering new electric van maker Arrival is restructuring its business and cutting jobs here as it shifts production to North Carolina to take advantage of massive green subsidies being offered for firms buying clean commercial vehicles.

The last three Tory governments have all boasted that Britain will be a world leader in both green energy and electric vehicle manufacturing, seeing car production as a symbol once again of the country’s status in our post-Brexit world. Now we hear the latest prime minister bragging that he will turn the nation into a technology force. Yet behind all the hype and brash talk, one of our most important, innovative and efficient industries is moving abroad thanks to state inertia at a time of fast-moving change. Britain is stuck in the slow lane — and we seem to be ignoring the warning signs flashing on the dashboard before our eyes.


Ian Birrell is an award-winning foreign reporter and columnist. He is also the founder, with Damon Albarn, of Africa Express.

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Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

Despite the mountains of anti Brexit verbiage the commentariat have been producing for 6 years, this is the first practical, numbers led article I’ve come across that actually demonstrates some elements of real damage.

Even then, it is clear the absence of any coherent leadership from the U.K. government is as much at fault as the fact of Brexit.

I should stop reading this stuff first thing, it’s too depressing. Though on the bright side we have been spared any exposure to WoWs (Willy owning Women) this morning.

Last edited 1 year ago by Martin Bollis
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

“Heaven be praised!”

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Despite the mountains of anti Brexit verbiage 

Brexit supporting commentators are free to provide detailed analysis about the boom in trade, investment and technology since 2016. And yet….it should be easy right?

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I was 50/50 about it and eventually voted remain, convinced by project fear. Remember that? House prices were going to collapse, Osborne would have to do an emergency budget, there would be chaos throughout the financial system.

The behaviour of our politicians, actively colluding with the other side in a negotiation of national importance, and the pettiness of the EU, convinced me it might have been for the best, notwithstanding the inevitable, initial, backward step. The drivel produced by the MSM (on both sides) since, has made it difficult to get a handle on the real impact. Sensible articles like this are therefore valuable in trying to objectively assess what’s happening.

Since then we’ve had the pandemic, which was a game changer and seems to have ushered in some level of de globalisation. Will a nimbler economy be an advantage in a rapidly changing environment? It remains to be seen.

As many people on here point out, our execrable government has failed comprehensively to take any advantage of the freedoms Brexit might have offered anyway, so we may never really know.

I think it’s also worth defining success. Globalisation and free movement harmed the C D income groups. It’s not rocket science- a glut of unskilled and semi skilled labour will produce a drop in its price. There do now seem to be labour shortages, which has led to some wage inflation, certainly in the hospitality and transport sectors. So it could be said to have worked for them (at least until QE finally led to the inevitable inflation spiral.)

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

“The behaviour of our politicians, actively colluding with the other side in a negotiation of national importance, and the pettiness of the EU”
No, just another conspiracy. The idea that UK can leave EU and have the same market access as Germany (a member state) is completely idiotic. And if not the same market access you (as a Brexiters) should have told the nation what sector were willing to sacrifice. Surely in the name of fairness you should have pointed out that Brexiters in position of power are clueless?!
“many people on here”
All dishonest clowns. There are the same people (I am sure you are one of them) that during their lifetime have constantly complained about immorality in public life, dishonesty, incompetence…and they voted Boris. They also blamed the media, the Remainers etc. when Dominic drove to the castle to “test his eyes”.
“unskilled labor” – yes you voted out Poles for more Pakistanis; fewer Romanians more Nigerians.
Congratulations! What a genius move!

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Andy Moore
Andy Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

So why is the EU’s share of global trade shrinking. German car output has also been falling, it’s all too easy to blame Brexit, if you fail to look at what is happening in the EU.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Moore

Again, feel free to provide evidence that Brexit has not harmed the economy!

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Surely, you have to supply the factual evidence that it has been harmed. On a personal note, I voted leave because I believe in small government. The economy, along with immigration was further down on my list.

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Surely, you have to supply the factual evidence that it has been harmed. On a personal note, I voted leave because I believe in small government. The economy, along with immigration was further down on my list.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Moore

Again, feel free to provide evidence that Brexit has not harmed the economy!

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Oh dear I thought you were a serious person. Just another excitable troll it appears.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Of course from the guy that wrote
The behaviour of our politicians, actively colluding with the other side in a negotiation of national importance, and the pettiness of the EU”

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Of course from the guy that wrote
The behaviour of our politicians, actively colluding with the other side in a negotiation of national importance, and the pettiness of the EU”

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

China seems to have easy enough access to the EU single market to sell its cheap plastic toys – and its cars. How do you explain that?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

UK doesn’t make cheap plastic toys…
And UK can sell cars in EU…
Are you saying that UK GOV negotiated a worst deal than China?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago

UK doesn’t make cheap plastic toys…
And UK can sell cars in EU…
Are you saying that UK GOV negotiated a worst deal than China?

Andy Moore
Andy Moore
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

So why is the EU’s share of global trade shrinking. German car output has also been falling, it’s all too easy to blame Brexit, if you fail to look at what is happening in the EU.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Oh dear I thought you were a serious person. Just another excitable troll it appears.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

China seems to have easy enough access to the EU single market to sell its cheap plastic toys – and its cars. How do you explain that?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

“The behaviour of our politicians, actively colluding with the other side in a negotiation of national importance, and the pettiness of the EU”
No, just another conspiracy. The idea that UK can leave EU and have the same market access as Germany (a member state) is completely idiotic. And if not the same market access you (as a Brexiters) should have told the nation what sector were willing to sacrifice. Surely in the name of fairness you should have pointed out that Brexiters in position of power are clueless?!
“many people on here”
All dishonest clowns. There are the same people (I am sure you are one of them) that during their lifetime have constantly complained about immorality in public life, dishonesty, incompetence…and they voted Boris. They also blamed the media, the Remainers etc. when Dominic drove to the castle to “test his eyes”.
“unskilled labor” – yes you voted out Poles for more Pakistanis; fewer Romanians more Nigerians.
Congratulations! What a genius move!

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

I was 50/50 about it and eventually voted remain, convinced by project fear. Remember that? House prices were going to collapse, Osborne would have to do an emergency budget, there would be chaos throughout the financial system.

The behaviour of our politicians, actively colluding with the other side in a negotiation of national importance, and the pettiness of the EU, convinced me it might have been for the best, notwithstanding the inevitable, initial, backward step. The drivel produced by the MSM (on both sides) since, has made it difficult to get a handle on the real impact. Sensible articles like this are therefore valuable in trying to objectively assess what’s happening.

Since then we’ve had the pandemic, which was a game changer and seems to have ushered in some level of de globalisation. Will a nimbler economy be an advantage in a rapidly changing environment? It remains to be seen.

As many people on here point out, our execrable government has failed comprehensively to take any advantage of the freedoms Brexit might have offered anyway, so we may never really know.

I think it’s also worth defining success. Globalisation and free movement harmed the C D income groups. It’s not rocket science- a glut of unskilled and semi skilled labour will produce a drop in its price. There do now seem to be labour shortages, which has led to some wage inflation, certainly in the hospitality and transport sectors. So it could be said to have worked for them (at least until QE finally led to the inevitable inflation spiral.)

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Leadership from governments? They could not even lead a horse to water, let alone make it drink. The achievements of the Victorians were not due to political leadership, they were achieved because politicians did not interfere in business.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

“Heaven be praised!”

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Despite the mountains of anti Brexit verbiage 

Brexit supporting commentators are free to provide detailed analysis about the boom in trade, investment and technology since 2016. And yet….it should be easy right?

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Leadership from governments? They could not even lead a horse to water, let alone make it drink. The achievements of the Victorians were not due to political leadership, they were achieved because politicians did not interfere in business.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

Despite the mountains of anti Brexit verbiage the commentariat have been producing for 6 years, this is the first practical, numbers led article I’ve come across that actually demonstrates some elements of real damage.

Even then, it is clear the absence of any coherent leadership from the U.K. government is as much at fault as the fact of Brexit.

I should stop reading this stuff first thing, it’s too depressing. Though on the bright side we have been spared any exposure to WoWs (Willy owning Women) this morning.

Last edited 1 year ago by Martin Bollis
Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

I say, what about reducing corporation tax? Or is that politically incorrect?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

Or is that politically incorrect?

It is economically pointless.
UK tax take (as % of GDP) is lower than the rest of Northern Europe. And all those countries outperform UK economically (higher productivity, wealth, investment rate, etc.).
There is a segment of UK population that is fundamentally unwilling to learn; Tax rate doesn’t matter!

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Corporation tax clearly does matter. The Irish economy’s success is entirely attributable to its aggressive low corporate tax policies. And 5 large multinational companies in the last 4 weeks have blamed the UK’s high corporation tax (and low allowances for investment deductions) for investing elsewhere in Europe.

UK corporation tax is 25%. Germany’s is 15%. Ireland’s is 12.5%. Sweden’s is 20%. And whilst France’s headline figure is higher than the UK’s, it has some extremely generous deductions on offer for capital investment.

So not only do we have Ireland exemplifying why it does matter, all those Northern European countries have lower effective corporation tax rates for investment intensive industries.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nell Clover
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

I have dealt with Corporate taxation more than you and in every country in the world the actual tax rate is not the headline tax rate. Companies can find plenty of loopholes to lower the effective tax rate.
If you take Ireland (EU membership and all that) as an example surely all the British companies would be incorporated in Ireland? And yet plenty of companies in UK and Germany and France and Denmark and Sweden.
Generous deductions are available to UK – you can do it right now.
Tax take as % of GDP:
France/Denmark – 46%, Germany 38%, Sweden 44%, UK 33%.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

It is manifestly nothing to do with corporation tax.

Having spent many years in corporate finance/ M and A investment banking in the automotive/ engineering sector, here are just some of the reasons:
1. Management: post war management, who were too young to serve in WW1 and too old to serve in WW2, were abysmal, and seemed to have issues with employing and promoting those talented people de-mobbed after WW2

Let us not forget that Lord Rootes of the appalling Rootes group of Hillman and Humber rubbish, advised the post war government not to take free ownership of VW, as he did not want ” competition” to and for his already crumbling business.

2. Workers and Unions: It is beyong reason to actually believe that working men who had endured and thrived under military discipline, leadership, courage and loyalty, should have somehow turned overnight into Communists in the late ’40s and early ‘ 50s: Their lack of respect for the aforementioned woeful management had rather more to do with it, I venture to suggest?

The TUC designed the post war workers board representation German union system, but the post war Labour government refused to implement it here: The strike record, Germany v Uk tells its own tale.

3. Engineering: having perfected multi valve, multi cam, multi cylinder lightweight aero engines such as the RR Merlin and Napier Sabre ( the latter whose short stroke wide bore low torque high rev spec was incorporated as late as the late 1990s into Formula 1 engines, initially by Renault) and automatic pre selector gear boxes ( notably the Wilson armoured car box) The UK car industry persisted in mainly using the same pushrod straight 4 and 6 engines for the next 30 years whilst German and Japanese OEMs used the modern aforementioned technology.

4. Post war ” win’ loss: The German and Japanese industry re- tooled, not least thanks to Allied subsidy, whereas Britain had to maintain a massive defence budget that the aformentioned did not.

Post war ” win/ loss 2″: the automotive sector had, during WW2, turned its hand to military aviation and engineering output, reverting to making outdated cars, sans that revenue was an impossible task.

5. Marketing management: One only has to take the eyewateringly pathetic example of Toyota taking what is now some 60 pc of the global 4wd market, whilst Land Rover, with all its colonial access just dithered and failed.

UK car appeal overseas, was as good as nil.

6. Thatchers contribution- I need not insult readers intelligence with comment.

7. Other factors: The wholesale sell of of the remaining OEMs was the final nail in the coffin, all at a time when Britain’s engine, gearbox, electronics, aerodynamics, specialist metals, and composite automotive engineering ruled the motor racing and motorsports world.

Conclusion: tragic, wilful failure assisted by incompetent government.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

None of your seven points, however persuasive, supports the assertion that ‘corporation tax has nothing to do with it.’

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

please explain?

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

None of your points, (accepting them all, for the sake of argument) is inconsistent with the proposition that a lower rate of corporation tax would make (and would have made) the UK more attractive to domestic and foreign investment.

Gerard A
Gerard A
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

I also spent a lot of my career in corporate finance and making investment decisions. The investment largely depended on the economic environment, stability, and the likely pre-tax returns. The tax rate was never the major factor, though I agree a better capital allowance system would help. I would go for a straight 100% cash deduction on all capital spend.

Gerard A
Gerard A
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

I also spent a lot of my career in corporate finance and making investment decisions. The investment largely depended on the economic environment, stability, and the likely pre-tax returns. The tax rate was never the major factor, though I agree a better capital allowance system would help. I would go for a straight 100% cash deduction on all capital spend.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

None of your points, (accepting them all, for the sake of argument) is inconsistent with the proposition that a lower rate of corporation tax would make (and would have made) the UK more attractive to domestic and foreign investment.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

please explain?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

Brilliant. I should add many good people went overseas. I knew a chap Chartered Engineer trained by Parson who after 9 months working for Bechtel in S Francisco was head of design fro a $2B( 1980s prices) oil installation in Sudi Arabia.
Yeast is only a fraction of the mass of a loaf and one only needs a slight decrease and the bread will only partially rise. From 1945, craftsmen, chargehands,foremen, technicians and engineers have left the UK an gone overseas.
Avon Rubber had strike problems. A family friend ,a former RAF officer , tortured by SS, survived the death marches and then test pilot post WW2 was brought in as personnel officer. He listened to comments by workers and union offficials. He told the middle management that if he had been spoken to in that manner he would taken them outside and and taught them some manners. He earnt the respect of the union officials and workers as a man and strikes were reduced.
It was not just the too young for WW1 and too old for WW2, there many people who were in reserved occuptions or evaded combat if one had Ordinary Leaving Cert, slight asthma, or weak chest, wore glasses or had flat feet, etc. These types were promoted during the war and were actively hostile to those returning , especially if they had good combat records.i.e young engineering officer with a a medal for bravery.
In the case of Germany was it able to re-equip its factories using funds hidden in foreign countries by the Nazis ?
German unions are dominated by skilled craft unions who can read balance sheets and supported investment in new technology requiring less staff. British unions were dominated by the unskilled who could not read a balance sheet and opposed new technology as their members would be laid off.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Lovely story about the family friend that illustrates the catastrophic cultural separation between management and shop floor in that era really well, and suggests some of the factors bringing it about.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Lovely story about the family friend that illustrates the catastrophic cultural separation between management and shop floor in that era really well, and suggests some of the factors bringing it about.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

Brilliant. Complexity of tax took power from engineers and created accountants it was not just high rates.. The chap who founded Sony could not believe the number of accountants in the UK.
Many of those with the get up and go either worked overseas for companies in mining, oil, plantation, banking, construction, Commonwealth Development Fund or emigrated. Also many people avoided combat in WW2- if they had flat feet, touch of asthma, wore glasses and had at least Ordinary Leaving Cert’ and were promoted in companies because better men were at war. Those who had been in engineering and seen extensive combat were actively disliked by the stay at homes which caused many to emigrate.
British unions were dominated by unskilled, who opposed technology and could not read a balance sheet. The , Germans by craftsmen who could and supported new techology.
Basically much of the talent was distilled out of the country. I knew a Chartered Engineer trained by Parsons , in his late twenties who within nine months of working for Bechtel in the USA was head of design for a $2B( 1980s prices ).
The civil service controlled mines, steel, electricity, gas, water, sewage, roads, railways, docks, latterly cars, ship building and those at the top had arts degrees and did not stand up to unions resulting in overmanning and slow introduction of technology. Strikes made it impossible to match Japanese quality and delayed delivery to customers, especially important in ship building.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

None of your seven points, however persuasive, supports the assertion that ‘corporation tax has nothing to do with it.’

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

Brilliant. I should add many good people went overseas. I knew a chap Chartered Engineer trained by Parson who after 9 months working for Bechtel in S Francisco was head of design fro a $2B( 1980s prices) oil installation in Sudi Arabia.
Yeast is only a fraction of the mass of a loaf and one only needs a slight decrease and the bread will only partially rise. From 1945, craftsmen, chargehands,foremen, technicians and engineers have left the UK an gone overseas.
Avon Rubber had strike problems. A family friend ,a former RAF officer , tortured by SS, survived the death marches and then test pilot post WW2 was brought in as personnel officer. He listened to comments by workers and union offficials. He told the middle management that if he had been spoken to in that manner he would taken them outside and and taught them some manners. He earnt the respect of the union officials and workers as a man and strikes were reduced.
It was not just the too young for WW1 and too old for WW2, there many people who were in reserved occuptions or evaded combat if one had Ordinary Leaving Cert, slight asthma, or weak chest, wore glasses or had flat feet, etc. These types were promoted during the war and were actively hostile to those returning , especially if they had good combat records.i.e young engineering officer with a a medal for bravery.
In the case of Germany was it able to re-equip its factories using funds hidden in foreign countries by the Nazis ?
German unions are dominated by skilled craft unions who can read balance sheets and supported investment in new technology requiring less staff. British unions were dominated by the unskilled who could not read a balance sheet and opposed new technology as their members would be laid off.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

Brilliant. Complexity of tax took power from engineers and created accountants it was not just high rates.. The chap who founded Sony could not believe the number of accountants in the UK.
Many of those with the get up and go either worked overseas for companies in mining, oil, plantation, banking, construction, Commonwealth Development Fund or emigrated. Also many people avoided combat in WW2- if they had flat feet, touch of asthma, wore glasses and had at least Ordinary Leaving Cert’ and were promoted in companies because better men were at war. Those who had been in engineering and seen extensive combat were actively disliked by the stay at homes which caused many to emigrate.
British unions were dominated by unskilled, who opposed technology and could not read a balance sheet. The , Germans by craftsmen who could and supported new techology.
Basically much of the talent was distilled out of the country. I knew a Chartered Engineer trained by Parsons , in his late twenties who within nine months of working for Bechtel in the USA was head of design for a $2B( 1980s prices ).
The civil service controlled mines, steel, electricity, gas, water, sewage, roads, railways, docks, latterly cars, ship building and those at the top had arts degrees and did not stand up to unions resulting in overmanning and slow introduction of technology. Strikes made it impossible to match Japanese quality and delayed delivery to customers, especially important in ship building.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

I have dealt with Corporate taxation more than you and in every country in the world the actual tax rate is not the headline tax rate. Companies can find plenty of loopholes to lower the effective tax rate.
If you take Ireland (EU membership and all that) as an example surely all the British companies would be incorporated in Ireland? And yet plenty of companies in UK and Germany and France and Denmark and Sweden.
Generous deductions are available to UK – you can do it right now.
Tax take as % of GDP:
France/Denmark – 46%, Germany 38%, Sweden 44%, UK 33%.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

It is manifestly nothing to do with corporation tax.

Having spent many years in corporate finance/ M and A investment banking in the automotive/ engineering sector, here are just some of the reasons:
1. Management: post war management, who were too young to serve in WW1 and too old to serve in WW2, were abysmal, and seemed to have issues with employing and promoting those talented people de-mobbed after WW2

Let us not forget that Lord Rootes of the appalling Rootes group of Hillman and Humber rubbish, advised the post war government not to take free ownership of VW, as he did not want ” competition” to and for his already crumbling business.

2. Workers and Unions: It is beyong reason to actually believe that working men who had endured and thrived under military discipline, leadership, courage and loyalty, should have somehow turned overnight into Communists in the late ’40s and early ‘ 50s: Their lack of respect for the aforementioned woeful management had rather more to do with it, I venture to suggest?

The TUC designed the post war workers board representation German union system, but the post war Labour government refused to implement it here: The strike record, Germany v Uk tells its own tale.

3. Engineering: having perfected multi valve, multi cam, multi cylinder lightweight aero engines such as the RR Merlin and Napier Sabre ( the latter whose short stroke wide bore low torque high rev spec was incorporated as late as the late 1990s into Formula 1 engines, initially by Renault) and automatic pre selector gear boxes ( notably the Wilson armoured car box) The UK car industry persisted in mainly using the same pushrod straight 4 and 6 engines for the next 30 years whilst German and Japanese OEMs used the modern aforementioned technology.

4. Post war ” win’ loss: The German and Japanese industry re- tooled, not least thanks to Allied subsidy, whereas Britain had to maintain a massive defence budget that the aformentioned did not.

Post war ” win/ loss 2″: the automotive sector had, during WW2, turned its hand to military aviation and engineering output, reverting to making outdated cars, sans that revenue was an impossible task.

5. Marketing management: One only has to take the eyewateringly pathetic example of Toyota taking what is now some 60 pc of the global 4wd market, whilst Land Rover, with all its colonial access just dithered and failed.

UK car appeal overseas, was as good as nil.

6. Thatchers contribution- I need not insult readers intelligence with comment.

7. Other factors: The wholesale sell of of the remaining OEMs was the final nail in the coffin, all at a time when Britain’s engine, gearbox, electronics, aerodynamics, specialist metals, and composite automotive engineering ruled the motor racing and motorsports world.

Conclusion: tragic, wilful failure assisted by incompetent government.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

You’re clearly on a State, Big Corporate or ‘Third Sector’ salary for doing nothing much. It matters to me, it matters intensely to small business and it is a crucial factor for mobile business in deciding where to put their plant. If you don’t believe tax punishes and disincentives investment, saving, trade and work, then you don’t believe fines punish and disincentives crime. When they hit the VAT threshold, most tradesmen effectively knock off for the rest of the year. It isn’t worth the hassle… Same goes for so many people at the Student Loans repayment threshold, the £60k and £100k punitive taxation traps threshold set by Osborne, etc.
Think it through, you metro LibDem dope: would people work harder with tax rates at 99%, or at 0%? Even you must be able to see the answer. That’s what we call the reductio ad absurdum, but it makes the principle clear: people will work more with tax rates at 20% than they will when they are 60%.
BTW, with tax rates at a 77-year high, what marvellous services have we to show for it? The NHS is imploding, schools are broke and the roads in London and the South East look like they’ve been bombed…
I guess we’d better, er, raise taxes some more, eh?

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

You’re clearly on a State, Big Corporate or ‘Third Sector’ salary for doing nothing much.

I worked all my life in private sector (investment banking, fund management). I have always paid c.40% of my income in taxes.
“The NHS is imploding,” – not my problem. I have private insurance.

 If you don’t believe tax punishes and disincentives investment, saving, trade and work, then you don’t believe fines punish and disincentives crime.

AGAIN, compare UK with Germany or Netherlands or Sweden about taxation and/or investment rate!
Comparing taxation with crime is just too idiotic!
P.S. Feel free to vote for a party that will cut taxes to Singapore levels (Singapore on the Atlantic). I am fine with that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

You’re clearly on a State, Big Corporate or ‘Third Sector’ salary for doing nothing much.

I worked all my life in private sector (investment banking, fund management). I have always paid c.40% of my income in taxes.
“The NHS is imploding,” – not my problem. I have private insurance.

 If you don’t believe tax punishes and disincentives investment, saving, trade and work, then you don’t believe fines punish and disincentives crime.

AGAIN, compare UK with Germany or Netherlands or Sweden about taxation and/or investment rate!
Comparing taxation with crime is just too idiotic!
P.S. Feel free to vote for a party that will cut taxes to Singapore levels (Singapore on the Atlantic). I am fine with that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
P N
P N
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Writing in bold type doesn’t make things true. If tax rates don’t matter, then why not make the tax 40%, 50% or 75%?
There are any number of reasons some other Northern European (not all) countries are outperforming the UK at the moment (not always) on some economic metrics (not all), the most cited one being Brexit. There is sadly a segment of the population that is fundamentally unwilling to learn; correlation does not imply causation.

Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Corporation tax clearly does matter. The Irish economy’s success is entirely attributable to its aggressive low corporate tax policies. And 5 large multinational companies in the last 4 weeks have blamed the UK’s high corporation tax (and low allowances for investment deductions) for investing elsewhere in Europe.

UK corporation tax is 25%. Germany’s is 15%. Ireland’s is 12.5%. Sweden’s is 20%. And whilst France’s headline figure is higher than the UK’s, it has some extremely generous deductions on offer for capital investment.

So not only do we have Ireland exemplifying why it does matter, all those Northern European countries have lower effective corporation tax rates for investment intensive industries.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nell Clover
Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

You’re clearly on a State, Big Corporate or ‘Third Sector’ salary for doing nothing much. It matters to me, it matters intensely to small business and it is a crucial factor for mobile business in deciding where to put their plant. If you don’t believe tax punishes and disincentives investment, saving, trade and work, then you don’t believe fines punish and disincentives crime. When they hit the VAT threshold, most tradesmen effectively knock off for the rest of the year. It isn’t worth the hassle… Same goes for so many people at the Student Loans repayment threshold, the £60k and £100k punitive taxation traps threshold set by Osborne, etc.
Think it through, you metro LibDem dope: would people work harder with tax rates at 99%, or at 0%? Even you must be able to see the answer. That’s what we call the reductio ad absurdum, but it makes the principle clear: people will work more with tax rates at 20% than they will when they are 60%.
BTW, with tax rates at a 77-year high, what marvellous services have we to show for it? The NHS is imploding, schools are broke and the roads in London and the South East look like they’ve been bombed…
I guess we’d better, er, raise taxes some more, eh?

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Joy
P N
P N
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Writing in bold type doesn’t make things true. If tax rates don’t matter, then why not make the tax 40%, 50% or 75%?
There are any number of reasons some other Northern European (not all) countries are outperforming the UK at the moment (not always) on some economic metrics (not all), the most cited one being Brexit. There is sadly a segment of the population that is fundamentally unwilling to learn; correlation does not imply causation.

Michael W
Michael W
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

We already have much lower corporation tax than the other OECD countries, so if it’s such a great idea why isn’t working already? Clearly cutting tax doesn’t solve all the problems, it’s more complicated than that. Prefering tax cuts to investments is one of the reasons Britain is in this mess in the first place.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael W

I did not suggest it would solve all the problems. Of course not. But I maintain that higher rates of tax are a disincentive to investment. Why do you think businesses migrate to low-tax jurisdictions?

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael W

I did not suggest it would solve all the problems. Of course not. But I maintain that higher rates of tax are a disincentive to investment. Why do you think businesses migrate to low-tax jurisdictions?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

Or is that politically incorrect?

It is economically pointless.
UK tax take (as % of GDP) is lower than the rest of Northern Europe. And all those countries outperform UK economically (higher productivity, wealth, investment rate, etc.).
There is a segment of UK population that is fundamentally unwilling to learn; Tax rate doesn’t matter!

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Michael W
Michael W
1 year ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

We already have much lower corporation tax than the other OECD countries, so if it’s such a great idea why isn’t working already? Clearly cutting tax doesn’t solve all the problems, it’s more complicated than that. Prefering tax cuts to investments is one of the reasons Britain is in this mess in the first place.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
1 year ago

I say, what about reducing corporation tax? Or is that politically incorrect?

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

Does every writer on Unherd walk around saying ‘Brexit’ all day, in answer to every question?

Writer bumps man on Tube…

Man, ‘Sorry’.

Unherd Writer, ‘Brexit’.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Truly, the Devil works in mysterious ways; including in the UK car industry.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

First Satan, then the Devil, now Brexit!

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

We’ve had The Satanic Verses.
We know the Devil has all the best tunes.
What i want to know is: where’s the Brexit tribute?

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago

We’ve had The Satanic Verses.
We know the Devil has all the best tunes.
What i want to know is: where’s the Brexit tribute?

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

First Satan, then the Devil, now Brexit!

Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

The damage was done many years before Br**it. It was caused by globalisation.

My father was a shop steward in a car company. The industry was in decline then. It was too late. When Britain made good cars, the market was mainly Britain; the parts were made in Britain. Countries like France and Germany had their own industries and made their own parts.

It became cheaper to standardise. The big market was suddenly Europe – far cheaper to assemble right next to the market. The last straw was joining the EU. I worked for a parts manufacturer and the extra miles to send those parts to the assembly plant was the killer. Germany realised this and set up parts manufacturers in Slovakia, close to the market especially with eastern Europe becoming important after 1991. Finally the assembly plants themselves, or some of them, moved to Slovakia.

All of this is about geography. Eastern Europe is best, then mainland Europe, then SE England, then the rest of the UK. There are parts manufacurers in the UK but they will decline slowly.

It is the same for anything which has to be shipped. OK, more expensive products are better but that just means that decline will be slower. In the future freight will become even more expensive because of the Stop Oil brigade.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Germany has managed to keep its industrial base alive and well (and not just cars). UK didn’t.
In 1950s UK car exports dominated Australian market (as imports). By 1970s Japanese wiped out the British competitors.
Why? Because they produced better cars. That is competition for you. Unless you believe that Aussies should buy inferior products because they are British.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

People are not aware that the Big Two in Germany pool resources for the purpose of joint development. This is not banned by the government. But it is also not competition.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Nothing new; my first car was a Mitsubishi Eclipse (google it) – it was the product of cooperation (as a platform) between Chrysler and Mitsubishi. Toyota and GM cooperated to develop different platforms. Fiat used to cooperate with PSA (Vans) before they merged.
BMC Leyland was the product of UK GOV policy to merge different companies to compete nationally and internationally.
You find it hard to grasp the fact that other people out there “might be better” at making stuff than UK (hint, they are!).

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

At the end of WWII the VW plant at Wolfsburg fell into the British Occupation Zone.
We had spent the entire war trying to destroy it, but bombing at night was a bit of a problem and we only managed to destroy the nearby Medieval city of Brunswick, 16 miles to the south.

It was suggested that we sequestrate (steal) the plant as part of War reparations.

However after inspection and evaluation by the ‘good and the great’ of the British Car Industry, the idea was rejected.
Apparently among the reasons given were the fact that the VW (Beetle) was air-cooled, rear-engined, and and in short an ugly little beast. This for car which achieved sales of 21 million!

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

OK, so let’s have a few facts to back up your assertion that other countries are better at making stuff than the UK.
Which stuff ?
Which countries ?
How precisely are they “better” ? What are you measuring here ?
If such differences do exist, how much weight would you give to these factors ?
Which countries are “better” ? Which are “worse” ?
Design
Management
Marketing
Quality
Culture
Plus any others you might care to mention.
If we’re talking cars – as an example – are you claiming that French built Renault’s are better and more reliable than Sunderland built Nissans ?

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Look up ‘Deming Japan’ for your answer.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Gordon Arta

That’s not an answer.
The Deming (he was an American) stuff was brought back to the West decades ago. Across many industries. Including by the Japanese companies who run most car production in the UK.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Gordon Arta

That’s not an answer.
The Deming (he was an American) stuff was brought back to the West decades ago. Across many industries. Including by the Japanese companies who run most car production in the UK.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Germany is better at making stuff than UK and (brace yourself) better at industrial design. Hence rich Americans buy German (not British) kitchens.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

No one disputes that Germany is better at making *some stuff*. Indeed, I have German ovens, dishwasher and washing machine (and a Samung fridge). It’s a no brainer if you can afford it.
But your implication that Germany/some other unspecified countries are better *at all stuff* feels rather improbable !
There is plenty of “stuff” that Britain makes and does well and in which we are internationally competitive. And indeed in which Germany is not. I’m not sure why you wish to devote so much effort into talking the country down. Or indeed appear to take some bizarre pleasure in doing so.
So what if Nissan is Japanese ? We all know that. The point is that it’s in the UK. And is one of the best car producers in Europe. Not by chance either. And it’s a *good thing* that the Japanese came over here to remind us how to run a car company. I don’t much care whether it’s “British”, “Japanese” or anything else. The important thing is that it’s viable and makes things that people want at a price they can afforrd. Preferably without needing lots of state subsidies.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Did I say “at all stuff”?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

It is clearly implied in the tone of your remarks which are dismissive of UK design and manufacturing in general.
“Germany is better at making stuff than UK”.
Since you didn’t qualify which stuff, that’s clearly “all stuff” isn’t it ?
Do feel free to be more specific if that isn’t what you meant to say.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

It is clearly implied in the tone of your remarks which are dismissive of UK design and manufacturing in general.
“Germany is better at making stuff than UK”.
Since you didn’t qualify which stuff, that’s clearly “all stuff” isn’t it ?
Do feel free to be more specific if that isn’t what you meant to say.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Did I say “at all stuff”?

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

We were better at making Body Scanners (Oxford Magnet Technology) Siemens did not have this Technology but “persuaded” OMT to sell their Business to them.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Martin

Interesting point, what government policies might have changed that outcome to keep OMT in production in the UK?

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Martin

Interesting point, what government policies might have changed that outcome to keep OMT in production in the UK?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

No one disputes that Germany is better at making *some stuff*. Indeed, I have German ovens, dishwasher and washing machine (and a Samung fridge). It’s a no brainer if you can afford it.
But your implication that Germany/some other unspecified countries are better *at all stuff* feels rather improbable !
There is plenty of “stuff” that Britain makes and does well and in which we are internationally competitive. And indeed in which Germany is not. I’m not sure why you wish to devote so much effort into talking the country down. Or indeed appear to take some bizarre pleasure in doing so.
So what if Nissan is Japanese ? We all know that. The point is that it’s in the UK. And is one of the best car producers in Europe. Not by chance either. And it’s a *good thing* that the Japanese came over here to remind us how to run a car company. I don’t much care whether it’s “British”, “Japanese” or anything else. The important thing is that it’s viable and makes things that people want at a price they can afforrd. Preferably without needing lots of state subsidies.

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

We were better at making Body Scanners (Oxford Magnet Technology) Siemens did not have this Technology but “persuaded” OMT to sell their Business to them.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Look up ‘Deming Japan’ for your answer.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Germany is better at making stuff than UK and (brace yourself) better at industrial design. Hence rich Americans buy German (not British) kitchens.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

At the end of WWII the VW plant at Wolfsburg fell into the British Occupation Zone.
We had spent the entire war trying to destroy it, but bombing at night was a bit of a problem and we only managed to destroy the nearby Medieval city of Brunswick, 16 miles to the south.

It was suggested that we sequestrate (steal) the plant as part of War reparations.

However after inspection and evaluation by the ‘good and the great’ of the British Car Industry, the idea was rejected.
Apparently among the reasons given were the fact that the VW (Beetle) was air-cooled, rear-engined, and and in short an ugly little beast. This for car which achieved sales of 21 million!

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

OK, so let’s have a few facts to back up your assertion that other countries are better at making stuff than the UK.
Which stuff ?
Which countries ?
How precisely are they “better” ? What are you measuring here ?
If such differences do exist, how much weight would you give to these factors ?
Which countries are “better” ? Which are “worse” ?
Design
Management
Marketing
Quality
Culture
Plus any others you might care to mention.
If we’re talking cars – as an example – are you claiming that French built Renault’s are better and more reliable than Sunderland built Nissans ?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Nothing new; my first car was a Mitsubishi Eclipse (google it) – it was the product of cooperation (as a platform) between Chrysler and Mitsubishi. Toyota and GM cooperated to develop different platforms. Fiat used to cooperate with PSA (Vans) before they merged.
BMC Leyland was the product of UK GOV policy to merge different companies to compete nationally and internationally.
You find it hard to grasp the fact that other people out there “might be better” at making stuff than UK (hint, they are!).

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

And that despite the Aussies own dreadful car…the Holden!

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

You are right and taking your point one step further would anyone believe The Brits should continue to buy inferior cars – that has a radio and carpets as Standard!

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Why, because Britain unilaterally tore up its trade ties with its Commonwealth partners as a condition of joining the EEC which had the added bonus of exposing Britain’s inefficient and under invested industries to European competition. Hence the industrial melt down of the late 70s and early 80s which would probably have happened anyway but probably a lot more slowly and lot less painfully.
Why were the Germans and the French able to keep their industries because they play the game and cheat and lie as necessary to protect their own national interests

Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

People are not aware that the Big Two in Germany pool resources for the purpose of joint development. This is not banned by the government. But it is also not competition.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

And that despite the Aussies own dreadful car…the Holden!

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

You are right and taking your point one step further would anyone believe The Brits should continue to buy inferior cars – that has a radio and carpets as Standard!

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Why, because Britain unilaterally tore up its trade ties with its Commonwealth partners as a condition of joining the EEC which had the added bonus of exposing Britain’s inefficient and under invested industries to European competition. Hence the industrial melt down of the late 70s and early 80s which would probably have happened anyway but probably a lot more slowly and lot less painfully.
Why were the Germans and the French able to keep their industries because they play the game and cheat and lie as necessary to protect their own national interests

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

The reason vehicle production moved East was entirely due to much cheaper labour at the time of those nee countries entering the single market.

Established high wage countries could never compete with £2 an hour – not even Germany – true Germany still manufactures many cars but largely by Robot – which levels the pay rate.

Massive EU subsidies (forbidden by individual countries within EU) also had an effect. In Turkey (for example) not even an EU member Ford was showered with EU money to to create a Transit Van plant so Ford in Southampton for 90 years – simply closed it down and moved.

Was that Brexit too? Of course not.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

 but largely by Robot – which levels the pay rate.

You think factories in Slovakia or Hungary don’t use robots?
Focus on Ford: The £80m EU loan for Ford’s Turkish Transit plant | Daily Echo
Actual details about the EU (not EU actually) Loan (not subsidy) to Turkey.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

 but largely by Robot – which levels the pay rate.

You think factories in Slovakia or Hungary don’t use robots?
Focus on Ford: The £80m EU loan for Ford’s Turkish Transit plant | Daily Echo
Actual details about the EU (not EU actually) Loan (not subsidy) to Turkey.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Germany has managed to keep its industrial base alive and well (and not just cars). UK didn’t.
In 1950s UK car exports dominated Australian market (as imports). By 1970s Japanese wiped out the British competitors.
Why? Because they produced better cars. That is competition for you. Unless you believe that Aussies should buy inferior products because they are British.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

The reason vehicle production moved East was entirely due to much cheaper labour at the time of those nee countries entering the single market.

Established high wage countries could never compete with £2 an hour – not even Germany – true Germany still manufactures many cars but largely by Robot – which levels the pay rate.

Massive EU subsidies (forbidden by individual countries within EU) also had an effect. In Turkey (for example) not even an EU member Ford was showered with EU money to to create a Transit Van plant so Ford in Southampton for 90 years – simply closed it down and moved.

Was that Brexit too? Of course not.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

The consequences of our narrow vote to leave the EU are inescapable and everywhere. We can stick our fingers in our ears and go la la la or we can think carefully about what we’ve done and try and mitigate the disaster.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

One consequence is that we won’t have to contribute £10Bs to the EU Covid Recovery Fund. I regard that as a win.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

One consequence is that we won’t have to contribute £10Bs to the EU Covid Recovery Fund. I regard that as a win.

Kevin R
Kevin R
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Just as historians of WW2 have an infuriating habit of citing Hitler when discussing the causes of that particular calamity.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Who?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

He was an Austrian house painter whose works had unanticipated consequences

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

He was an Austrian house painter whose works had unanticipated consequences

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin R

Who?

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Truly, the Devil works in mysterious ways; including in the UK car industry.

Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

The damage was done many years before Br**it. It was caused by globalisation.

My father was a shop steward in a car company. The industry was in decline then. It was too late. When Britain made good cars, the market was mainly Britain; the parts were made in Britain. Countries like France and Germany had their own industries and made their own parts.

It became cheaper to standardise. The big market was suddenly Europe – far cheaper to assemble right next to the market. The last straw was joining the EU. I worked for a parts manufacturer and the extra miles to send those parts to the assembly plant was the killer. Germany realised this and set up parts manufacturers in Slovakia, close to the market especially with eastern Europe becoming important after 1991. Finally the assembly plants themselves, or some of them, moved to Slovakia.

All of this is about geography. Eastern Europe is best, then mainland Europe, then SE England, then the rest of the UK. There are parts manufacurers in the UK but they will decline slowly.

It is the same for anything which has to be shipped. OK, more expensive products are better but that just means that decline will be slower. In the future freight will become even more expensive because of the Stop Oil brigade.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

The consequences of our narrow vote to leave the EU are inescapable and everywhere. We can stick our fingers in our ears and go la la la or we can think carefully about what we’ve done and try and mitigate the disaster.

Kevin R
Kevin R
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Just as historians of WW2 have an infuriating habit of citing Hitler when discussing the causes of that particular calamity.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

Does every writer on Unherd walk around saying ‘Brexit’ all day, in answer to every question?

Writer bumps man on Tube…

Man, ‘Sorry’.

Unherd Writer, ‘Brexit’.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

It’s starting to feel like 1997 all over again. The wannabe Will Hutton’s are all over the media trumpeting how Britain is “in terminal decline” and only “more active government and some sort of industrial policy” can save us.
They were wrong then – the economic gains and legacy of Thatcher were squandered by a spendthrift gang of PR hucksters (New Labour). Will Hutton’s attempt to actually run a business (The Work Foundation) ended in insolvency. And they’re wrong now.
There is massive disruption going on in the auto (car) industry. And it is those with a large industrial base who are not leading the changes who will suffer most. I remember a famous statistic that German car sales acount for something like 15% of total world car sales, but 50% of profits – rather like Apple, they had captured the high end of the market. I’m really not convinced that’s going to hold going forwards. European share of the world market is in inevitable long term decline.
I note this statement:
“Yet Britain currently has only one Chinese-owned plant being built next to the Nissan factory in Sunderland. At least 35 are planned or under construction in the European Union, with three in Hungary alone.”
Stated as if having Chinese-owned plants *is a good thing*.
I can remember Gordon Brown going out shopping for Chinese investment for UK nuclear power stations. What are these people thinking ? Why do they assume we cannot – and should not – do this ourselves.
If a thing is really profitable and worth doing, we should invest in it ourselves.
Which brings me to this quote (about Cowley Mini production):
“The slightest friction for such production techniques can be catastrophic for an industry reliant on low margins and high volumes.”
Is this really the type of activity which the UK should be attempting to grow going forwards ? Is Oxford really the right location (amongst the most expensive areas in the country) for this sort of low margin activity ?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

It keeps The Blackbird Leys Estate going if nothing else.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

“Why do they assume we cannot – and should not – do this ourselves.”
UK GOV wants other people to invest in its infrastructure because the polity (the one that endlessly whiiiiiniiiiie about lack of infrastructure) is unwilling to cut consumption to finance investments.
BoJo was right about cakeism.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Thank you for reminding me about the huge amount of hype (especially all over the BBC) about Will Hutton and the Third Way that was going to transform our society for the better. I remember being underwhelmed by the fundamentals of the offering even as I was drowning in its promotion.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

It keeps The Blackbird Leys Estate going if nothing else.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

“Why do they assume we cannot – and should not – do this ourselves.”
UK GOV wants other people to invest in its infrastructure because the polity (the one that endlessly whiiiiiniiiiie about lack of infrastructure) is unwilling to cut consumption to finance investments.
BoJo was right about cakeism.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Thank you for reminding me about the huge amount of hype (especially all over the BBC) about Will Hutton and the Third Way that was going to transform our society for the better. I remember being underwhelmed by the fundamentals of the offering even as I was drowning in its promotion.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

It’s starting to feel like 1997 all over again. The wannabe Will Hutton’s are all over the media trumpeting how Britain is “in terminal decline” and only “more active government and some sort of industrial policy” can save us.
They were wrong then – the economic gains and legacy of Thatcher were squandered by a spendthrift gang of PR hucksters (New Labour). Will Hutton’s attempt to actually run a business (The Work Foundation) ended in insolvency. And they’re wrong now.
There is massive disruption going on in the auto (car) industry. And it is those with a large industrial base who are not leading the changes who will suffer most. I remember a famous statistic that German car sales acount for something like 15% of total world car sales, but 50% of profits – rather like Apple, they had captured the high end of the market. I’m really not convinced that’s going to hold going forwards. European share of the world market is in inevitable long term decline.
I note this statement:
“Yet Britain currently has only one Chinese-owned plant being built next to the Nissan factory in Sunderland. At least 35 are planned or under construction in the European Union, with three in Hungary alone.”
Stated as if having Chinese-owned plants *is a good thing*.
I can remember Gordon Brown going out shopping for Chinese investment for UK nuclear power stations. What are these people thinking ? Why do they assume we cannot – and should not – do this ourselves.
If a thing is really profitable and worth doing, we should invest in it ourselves.
Which brings me to this quote (about Cowley Mini production):
“The slightest friction for such production techniques can be catastrophic for an industry reliant on low margins and high volumes.”
Is this really the type of activity which the UK should be attempting to grow going forwards ? Is Oxford really the right location (amongst the most expensive areas in the country) for this sort of low margin activity ?

Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago

Part of the problem is that significant swathes of the Left is opposed to car ownership at all and not insignificant numbers are opposed to industrialization itself.

Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago

Part of the problem is that significant swathes of the Left is opposed to car ownership at all and not insignificant numbers are opposed to industrialization itself.

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago

I am glad we are weaning ourselves off foreign firms. Perhaps the extinction of their operations here might allow a homegrown industry to begin to reform.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  R Wright

Yes!
Give it enough time and UK will be a hybrid of Germany (Cars, machine, industrial automation) Taiwan/Korea (semiconductors, electronics) and USA (software).

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

That sounds rather comfortable.

Doug Shannon
Doug Shannon
1 year ago

I suspect Mr Smith may be deploying the arts of sarcasm.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Shannon

Surely not for is he not an American?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Shannon

Surely not for is he not an American?

Doug Shannon
Doug Shannon
1 year ago

I suspect Mr Smith may be deploying the arts of sarcasm.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

That sounds rather comfortable.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  R Wright

Yes!
Give it enough time and UK will be a hybrid of Germany (Cars, machine, industrial automation) Taiwan/Korea (semiconductors, electronics) and USA (software).

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago

I am glad we are weaning ourselves off foreign firms. Perhaps the extinction of their operations here might allow a homegrown industry to begin to reform.

Rob Britton
Rob Britton
1 year ago

Under this useless government everything is going down the pan; not just the car industry. It isn’t the fault of Brexit; it is the fault of government inertia.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Britton

Damn right. The “go to” is Brexit – but it aint. Its more this complete shower

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob Britton

Damn right. The “go to” is Brexit – but it aint. Its more this complete shower

Rob Britton
Rob Britton
1 year ago

Under this useless government everything is going down the pan; not just the car industry. It isn’t the fault of Brexit; it is the fault of government inertia.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

Birrell has done some good work on the origins of Covid but this article seems to have been written with a conclusion that preceded any analysis of the facts.
Ford has announced 1300 redundancies in Britain, yes, but why does the article not mention the 2300 redundancies in Germany? Presumably because it would contradict his conclusions. No mention either of Renault’s embarrassing capitulation to Nissan last week.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/05/renault-reverse-macrons-industrial-ambitions-tatters/
The car industry has a problem across Europe, not just in the UK. The move to electric vehicles will not save it because it’s not going to happen anything like as quickly or as extensively as politicians like to imagine. Car manufacturing is energy intensive and the future belongs to those countries who are not making their energy artificially expensive for virtue-signalling climate reasons.
P.S. Can a camshaft crossing the Channel three times before being fitted really be a good thing?

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

Birrell has done some good work on the origins of Covid but this article seems to have been written with a conclusion that preceded any analysis of the facts.
Ford has announced 1300 redundancies in Britain, yes, but why does the article not mention the 2300 redundancies in Germany? Presumably because it would contradict his conclusions. No mention either of Renault’s embarrassing capitulation to Nissan last week.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/05/renault-reverse-macrons-industrial-ambitions-tatters/
The car industry has a problem across Europe, not just in the UK. The move to electric vehicles will not save it because it’s not going to happen anything like as quickly or as extensively as politicians like to imagine. Car manufacturing is energy intensive and the future belongs to those countries who are not making their energy artificially expensive for virtue-signalling climate reasons.
P.S. Can a camshaft crossing the Channel three times before being fitted really be a good thing?

Tony Taylor
Tony Taylor
1 year ago

Governments grow increasingly tired of multinational car corporations putting the squeeze on them for further subsidies; subsidies which have been rerouted to an industry far more dependent on government largesse than the car crowd. If the government didn’t waste so much money on suboptimal technologies like wind and solar (although I’m not sure if the UK has much, if any, of the latter) it might have a few extra shillings to further help the car companies. But at least you lot still have a car industry.

Or Brexit.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Taylor

UK can not match the subsidies and the market size of US, China and EU.
There is a reason why Asian battery makers (CATL, Samsung, LG, SK, etc) have selected EU over UK to build their factories.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Where do you think that subsidies come from, the magic money tree? You probably do.
The EU is a ramshackle empire built on bribery, corruption and fantasy. It will collapse as such fake “countries” invariably do. Sane people laughed at the Habsburg Empire and its over-dressed popinjay rulers. Now we laugh at the EU and the ludicrous Ursula Von Der Wotever.
stock pick: Invest in popcorn.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

“Ursula Von Der Wotever’s” pet pony (Dolly!) was recently ‘hoovered up’ by a lone Wolf.*

Designated as target GW 950m, German hunters are now scouring the countryside in an attempt to kill it, but so far have failed to do so.

Perhaps this event is allegorical as to the ultimate fate of the EU?

(*Good boy!)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

National governments will vote (or not) for subsidies. I thought EU was going to collapse when UK left…and yet here we are.
“Sane people” were wrong about AH Empire, it took a catastrophic war to destroy it. There was a poll (when the last Otto Hapsburg died – 2011 ) in the former lands of AH. Overwhelmingly (Slavs and Hungarians) the people thought that the collapse of AH was the greatest disaster that had befallen them. Pointless poll but there you go

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Yes agreed the moribund nature of the AH Empire is much exaggerated and it fought hard and from 1914 to late 1918.
In retrospect its fall was a disaster for all concerned, as we saw from 1936 to 1945.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Yes agreed the moribund nature of the AH Empire is much exaggerated and it fought hard and from 1914 to late 1918.
In retrospect its fall was a disaster for all concerned, as we saw from 1936 to 1945.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

“Ursula Von Der Wotever’s” pet pony (Dolly!) was recently ‘hoovered up’ by a lone Wolf.*

Designated as target GW 950m, German hunters are now scouring the countryside in an attempt to kill it, but so far have failed to do so.

Perhaps this event is allegorical as to the ultimate fate of the EU?

(*Good boy!)

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

National governments will vote (or not) for subsidies. I thought EU was going to collapse when UK left…and yet here we are.
“Sane people” were wrong about AH Empire, it took a catastrophic war to destroy it. There was a poll (when the last Otto Hapsburg died – 2011 ) in the former lands of AH. Overwhelmingly (Slavs and Hungarians) the people thought that the collapse of AH was the greatest disaster that had befallen them. Pointless poll but there you go

Last edited 1 year ago by Jeremy Smith
polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Where do you think that subsidies come from, the magic money tree? You probably do.
The EU is a ramshackle empire built on bribery, corruption and fantasy. It will collapse as such fake “countries” invariably do. Sane people laughed at the Habsburg Empire and its over-dressed popinjay rulers. Now we laugh at the EU and the ludicrous Ursula Von Der Wotever.
stock pick: Invest in popcorn.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Taylor

UK can not match the subsidies and the market size of US, China and EU.
There is a reason why Asian battery makers (CATL, Samsung, LG, SK, etc) have selected EU over UK to build their factories.

Tony Taylor
Tony Taylor
1 year ago

Governments grow increasingly tired of multinational car corporations putting the squeeze on them for further subsidies; subsidies which have been rerouted to an industry far more dependent on government largesse than the car crowd. If the government didn’t waste so much money on suboptimal technologies like wind and solar (although I’m not sure if the UK has much, if any, of the latter) it might have a few extra shillings to further help the car companies. But at least you lot still have a car industry.

Or Brexit.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Good article but “35 plants in EU” means not much more “per country” than UK with 1 and more planned

Also “. halving since the country voted to leave the European Union in 2016“ – perhaps but not BECAUSE UK left the EU. Often people (you) conflate two separate issues. Have you seen German production also hit by supply issues?

You also missed the point that twice as many Ford job losses are in Germany. Some also in Spain and even US itself.

I agree The UK needs to up its game and its a good overall article.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Good article but “35 plants in EU” means not much more “per country” than UK with 1 and more planned

Also “. halving since the country voted to leave the European Union in 2016“ – perhaps but not BECAUSE UK left the EU. Often people (you) conflate two separate issues. Have you seen German production also hit by supply issues?

You also missed the point that twice as many Ford job losses are in Germany. Some also in Spain and even US itself.

I agree The UK needs to up its game and its a good overall article.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago

So now that everyone is leaving an uncompetitive and expensive energy producing country please can the the Conservative Government give up its belief in “free trade” in which foreign companies mostly Private Equity pillage our brilliant University start ups. It simply is not joined up thinking when Sunak says he wants the UK to be the new Silicon valley. He is just talking waffle. Get a grip Sunak.

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago

So now that everyone is leaving an uncompetitive and expensive energy producing country please can the the Conservative Government give up its belief in “free trade” in which foreign companies mostly Private Equity pillage our brilliant University start ups. It simply is not joined up thinking when Sunak says he wants the UK to be the new Silicon valley. He is just talking waffle. Get a grip Sunak.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago

Left wing unions have destroyed their own jobs.
Their members seethe with resentment that anyone should be successful and become rich.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

How is this the fault of the unions, when the article states they haven’t walked off the job in three decades?

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

When in doubt always blame the other side (BBC, Guardian, unions, French, Germans…Albanians..)

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

And you too, Jeremy. The clapped out foot soldiers of our equally clapped-out political “elite” are as responsible as the BBC et. al. for our demise. Brexit was the last desperate roll of the dice to rescue something from the wreckage that your class has wrought. It failed. Still, you are rapidly running out of road. I wonder what comes next.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Why (based on your previous b**tching) are you reading and responding to my comments?!
P.S. “my class has wrought” – what class is that?

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Bourgeois Liberal class.
Don’t be uncouth, Jeremy, it betrays you.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Personally I think of myself as upper middle class somewhat conservative.
Don’t pretend that you are a coal miner!

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Personally I think of myself as upper middle class somewhat conservative.
Don’t pretend that you are a coal miner!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Money Lenders in their Counting Houses, as we used to call them.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Bourgeois Liberal class.
Don’t be uncouth, Jeremy, it betrays you.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Money Lenders in their Counting Houses, as we used to call them.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Why (based on your previous b**tching) are you reading and responding to my comments?!
P.S. “my class has wrought” – what class is that?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Spoken like a true member of the elite

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

And you too, Jeremy. The clapped out foot soldiers of our equally clapped-out political “elite” are as responsible as the BBC et. al. for our demise. Brexit was the last desperate roll of the dice to rescue something from the wreckage that your class has wrought. It failed. Still, you are rapidly running out of road. I wonder what comes next.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

Spoken like a true member of the elite

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

When in doubt always blame the other side (BBC, Guardian, unions, French, Germans…Albanians..)

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Totally. “Red Robbo” shud down the 250,000 jobs that used to be BL.
Ford used to have 50,000 workers at Dagenham – until Barbara Castle “accepted a bet” from Ford that they will pull out of Dagenham. There is a tiny workforce left – but Ford make no cars in UK anymore as Halewood was a left wing hot bed of industrial “action”

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

How is this the fault of the unions, when the article states they haven’t walked off the job in three decades?

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  William Shaw

Totally. “Red Robbo” shud down the 250,000 jobs that used to be BL.
Ford used to have 50,000 workers at Dagenham – until Barbara Castle “accepted a bet” from Ford that they will pull out of Dagenham. There is a tiny workforce left – but Ford make no cars in UK anymore as Halewood was a left wing hot bed of industrial “action”

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago

Left wing unions have destroyed their own jobs.
Their members seethe with resentment that anyone should be successful and become rich.

Chris Milburn
Chris Milburn
1 year ago

Some wheat in this chaff. But disappointing to see the author spew drivel and repeat the green mantras. Electric cars are “clean”. Really? Ever read about battery production? I tease my friend here in NS who drives a Tesla. “Congratulations on your coal-powered car!”. And where is the proof that Brexit is to blame? Many other countries have seen declines in auto production during the same period. Correlation is not causation.
Here in Canada, the government is about to spend 14 BILLION (with a B) dollars to subsidize a new battery factory. Hmmm. In my experience, things that are good business ideas don’t need that kind of money stolen from the taxpayer to fund them.

Chris Milburn
Chris Milburn
1 year ago

Some wheat in this chaff. But disappointing to see the author spew drivel and repeat the green mantras. Electric cars are “clean”. Really? Ever read about battery production? I tease my friend here in NS who drives a Tesla. “Congratulations on your coal-powered car!”. And where is the proof that Brexit is to blame? Many other countries have seen declines in auto production during the same period. Correlation is not causation.
Here in Canada, the government is about to spend 14 BILLION (with a B) dollars to subsidize a new battery factory. Hmmm. In my experience, things that are good business ideas don’t need that kind of money stolen from the taxpayer to fund them.

Michael North
Michael North
1 year ago

Government priorities are welfare payments and the NHS. Anything else takes very much a back seat.

Michael North
Michael North
1 year ago

Government priorities are welfare payments and the NHS. Anything else takes very much a back seat.

Iris C
Iris C
1 year ago

No democratic government could oppose the environmental lobby which demanded electric cars by 2030 and also the end of coal mining and oil extraction. However I would suggest that this was an expedient decision but never a reality.
We must increase wind and sun energy as much as possible but other forms of renewable energy (besides nuclear plants already in existence) contribute little to the national grid. Wave and tidal energy have had very limited success and ditto with the development of nuclear fusion. Additional nuclear fission will help eventually, but this will never fill the gap in the energy needs of the nation, especially with the ever-increasing internet storage needed (using a vast amount of electricity) and the addition to the national grid of ever-increasing numbers of electric vehicles.
It could be that companies – like the Mini production in Cowley – will have the last shuddering laugh

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

I think they could have easily faced down the environmental lobby which has very limited hard core support. Unfortunately the liberal elite youth is entirely in its grasp. And nobody in that class seems to be able to defy their own children any more – A very odd state of affairs.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Wrong- A democratic government should and must oppose the eco zealot sandaloids and NOT go electric: our air quality is perfect.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

I think they could have easily faced down the environmental lobby which has very limited hard core support. Unfortunately the liberal elite youth is entirely in its grasp. And nobody in that class seems to be able to defy their own children any more – A very odd state of affairs.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Wrong- A democratic government should and must oppose the eco zealot sandaloids and NOT go electric: our air quality is perfect.

Iris C
Iris C
1 year ago

No democratic government could oppose the environmental lobby which demanded electric cars by 2030 and also the end of coal mining and oil extraction. However I would suggest that this was an expedient decision but never a reality.
We must increase wind and sun energy as much as possible but other forms of renewable energy (besides nuclear plants already in existence) contribute little to the national grid. Wave and tidal energy have had very limited success and ditto with the development of nuclear fusion. Additional nuclear fission will help eventually, but this will never fill the gap in the energy needs of the nation, especially with the ever-increasing internet storage needed (using a vast amount of electricity) and the addition to the national grid of ever-increasing numbers of electric vehicles.
It could be that companies – like the Mini production in Cowley – will have the last shuddering laugh

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

It is called evolution. If a country does not evolve technologically quickly enough it becomes moribund. Britain started being caught up technologically from 1850 due to Bismarck’s Blood and Iron Policy. Post Civil War, the USA took off and by 1900 along with Germany, were out performing the UK. The reasons are various, here are some ;-
Arnold pursued classics not maths and technology
Britain invested overseas post 1870
We failed to develop mass education until 1870 due to fights between C of E and Methodists.
Much of our talent went overseas post 1857
The vast talent drain to overseas enployment increased greatly post 1945. The result was that mediocre bloody minded management negotiated with bloody minded thuggish unskilled unions who pursued vast over manning, resisted new technology and caused numerous strikes and a technically illiterate civil service did not know their a…. from their elbow.
Complexity of tax, not just high rates took power from engineers and gave it to accountants.
The failure to adopt Swiss education which is geared to applied science, technology and high quality craft training and not vast amounts of low grade arts /humanities as in the case of Britain, prevents us from moving into high value advanced manufacturing. Switzerland produces watches which at £5k/0.1kg equates to £50M/tonne of manufactured goods which when one is producing goods of this value means costs are of little importance.
How Britain created the Industrial Revolution, defeated Napoleon, fought two world wars and ruled quarter of the world’s population ( or was it half) is a mystery to me when one looks at those who run Britain today.
Mussolini’s Black Shirts taking over Italy is like the BNP/National Front combining with some football hooligans and taking over Britain. It was Mussolini’s achievement which showed how fragile was democracy in Continental Europe.
The EEC was created because the middle of the road midddle class Continentals resented the fact they lacked the fighting spirit and skill at arms to defeat the thugs on the Left( Communism was a threat in Italy and France post WW2) and Right and felt spite towards the Anglophone World who had these qualities.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

It is called evolution. If a country does not evolve technologically quickly enough it becomes moribund. Britain started being caught up technologically from 1850 due to Bismarck’s Blood and Iron Policy. Post Civil War, the USA took off and by 1900 along with Germany, were out performing the UK. The reasons are various, here are some ;-
Arnold pursued classics not maths and technology
Britain invested overseas post 1870
We failed to develop mass education until 1870 due to fights between C of E and Methodists.
Much of our talent went overseas post 1857
The vast talent drain to overseas enployment increased greatly post 1945. The result was that mediocre bloody minded management negotiated with bloody minded thuggish unskilled unions who pursued vast over manning, resisted new technology and caused numerous strikes and a technically illiterate civil service did not know their a…. from their elbow.
Complexity of tax, not just high rates took power from engineers and gave it to accountants.
The failure to adopt Swiss education which is geared to applied science, technology and high quality craft training and not vast amounts of low grade arts /humanities as in the case of Britain, prevents us from moving into high value advanced manufacturing. Switzerland produces watches which at £5k/0.1kg equates to £50M/tonne of manufactured goods which when one is producing goods of this value means costs are of little importance.
How Britain created the Industrial Revolution, defeated Napoleon, fought two world wars and ruled quarter of the world’s population ( or was it half) is a mystery to me when one looks at those who run Britain today.
Mussolini’s Black Shirts taking over Italy is like the BNP/National Front combining with some football hooligans and taking over Britain. It was Mussolini’s achievement which showed how fragile was democracy in Continental Europe.
The EEC was created because the middle of the road midddle class Continentals resented the fact they lacked the fighting spirit and skill at arms to defeat the thugs on the Left( Communism was a threat in Italy and France post WW2) and Right and felt spite towards the Anglophone World who had these qualities.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

“a party worn out after largely wasting 13 years in power” – an apt epitaph.

Noel Chiappa
Noel Chiappa
1 year ago

“a party worn out after largely wasting 13 years in power” – an apt epitaph.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Yet another article where Brexiteers bump into reality. Car industry as the ‘canary in the mine’ meme. They really didn’t expect this when subscribing to UnHerd. ‘I pay my fees to be reassured I was right’. ‘Can’t it just go away’. ‘Can’t folks just get over it’. ‘It’s all a conspiracy from some blob like entity’. ‘I’ve no idea about this blob thing but if it avoids me feeling foolish I’ll go with it;
Groan. We’ll all be sipping from this poisoned chalice for years to come.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

You may very well live to eat those words

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

You may very well live to eat those words

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Yet another article where Brexiteers bump into reality. Car industry as the ‘canary in the mine’ meme. They really didn’t expect this when subscribing to UnHerd. ‘I pay my fees to be reassured I was right’. ‘Can’t it just go away’. ‘Can’t folks just get over it’. ‘It’s all a conspiracy from some blob like entity’. ‘I’ve no idea about this blob thing but if it avoids me feeling foolish I’ll go with it;
Groan. We’ll all be sipping from this poisoned chalice for years to come.