Is it time we started having less nuanced conversations about porn? We’ve all encountered the alternative: the sort of smug, self-styled progressive who maintains that every political controversy can be resolved by sufficiently “nuanced conversation”. The trickier a problem looks, these people seem to think, the more nuance you should probably dump on top of it. But nuance is not always a good thing. In theory, it leads to unwieldy over-complication; in practice, it leads to paralysis.
Polly Barton’s Porn: An Oral History — a transcript of 19 meandering conversations with anonymous interlocutors on the subject of sexuality, kinks, feminism and pornography — introduces narcotic doses of nuance into a “conversation” one might have considered already unwieldy enough to begin with. The book is “a compilation of messy, ugly conversations brimming with contradiction and ambiguity”. Indeed, by the end of her 19 conversations, Barton has been exposed to so much nuance she appears to have achieved full cognitive disengagement. “I am increasingly unsure what a position or even an opinion on porn could look like for me,” she concludes with satisfaction.
This is a common enough phenomenon when it comes to thinking reflectively about sex: bully your basic reactions with nuance to the point where you can disengage from the underlying phenomenon and believe almost anything. Barton’s conversations — especially those with women — are full of reports of sincere, sound, and persuasive first-order judgments about porn that are then swiftly crushed by second-order deference to a sexual morality of nuance. Her interviewees spontaneously notice that some sexual or pornographic convention strikes them as wrong, or degrading, or disgusting, then will immediately check themselves by noting that things are of course subtler and more “complex” than that suggests.
Contemplating the diverse horrors of porn — its violence, its tendency to warp and infiltrate sexual taste, its exploitative business model and association with criminality — Barton’s interviewees are near unanimous. They feel “extremely uncomfortable”; something “between anger and disgust”; “a kind of nebulous, all-pervasive worry and discomfort”. Porn is “unhinged”; “doesn’t sit right with me”; is “super off-putting”; “terrifying in a quite non-specific way”; “I just think about how the porn actress is in pain.” Barton notes the “flashes of discomfort in [their] eyes” as they answer. “I’m scrolling down,” reports one man, “and then I get to something that will suddenly be a turn-off. Women with their mascara running, or they start being tied-up, or they’re being abused and humiliated… It’s awful… It makes you feel dirty…[but] in a way I want to say, each to their own.”
Each to their own? This familiar corrective is more than an expression of the admirable liberal view that depraved practices ought not to be outlawed simply because they are wrong; it is the view that it is a mistake to register them as depraved or wrong in the first place. One interlocutor reports being made “queasy” by porn, but then to being “troubled… because I don’t what to be a prude and I want to be sex positive”. Another person is disquieted by styles of porn in which “the woman is treated quite violently”, but smothers this thought with the “understanding of that diversity and wanting to celebrate it”. “Why am I strangling you?” one man recalls thinking with horror, while discussing the sexual choking he was invited by a partner to imitate from porn. He then urgently corrects the record: “It’s not that I’m against it. I’m not against any of it.”
He’s not against any of it? Another woman, having discovered her husband’s penchant for “eight person gang-rape” videos, feels conflicted: “I understand that is some people’s fantasy… and I’m hesitant to kink-shame.” Several of the women are understandably scared by the idea that their boyfriends may be secretly aroused by the spectacle of misogynist sexual violence: “I struggle with it… sometimes I get myself in such tangles,” one says apologetically. Of course, some people might see this mental tangle as symptomatic of enlightened political thinking. Perhaps these people are in the process of refining their baser aversions to being slapped, degraded, and ejaculated on. They are overriding their untutored judgements, tuning them politically to the sex-positive framework, making them more sophisticated. More nuanced.
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SubscribeThe left-leaning boomer generation grew up with (and propagated) the idea that freedom from “sex hangups” was important for mental health and good politics (all that Wilhelm Reich inspired orgasm worship). To be right-wing was to be sexually-repressed and vice versa.
These days we are all left/liberal to some degree and concerned that we might be judged as judgemental (ie. repressed, limited, small-minded, unwholesome). Hence the need to be seen as sex-positive.
Sadly, thanks to “concept creep” the term sex positive now means rape positive and pedophile positive. And what’s with these “furries”? I guess we’re supposed to be bestiality positive as well.
There is no excuse for enabling the extremely harmful and abusive porn industry.
I’m fine with filmed erotica created by adult professional actors who control their work – but that type of erotica has been buried by mountains of rape flicks that are far more profitable.
‘Acceptance creep’ or ‘permission creep’ might be a more precise definition of the liberalising process at work.
Consider for example, the status of same-sex relationships: first there were demands for tolerance, under the law and socially; after some years tolerance was not enough, parity with heterosexual relationships was demanded; before long parity was not enough – what about self-esteem? – same-sex relationships must be conspicuously celebrated with Pride flags and emblems – with days/weeks/months of Pride all of us are urged to show unstinting approval of same-sex relationships.
And what of that starting point: tolerance? A 180 degree turnaround. Dissent will not be tolerated.
Camille Paglia says this is because they want to occupy a status outside what is accepted. It’s part of the thrill of being gay.
I am actually gay and I’m not sure I want somehow not to be accepted. I do feel however that male sexuality can often be given its full lustful head in gay relationships (so to speak!) in a way not generally possible in the same way as heterosexual ones.
There are people who seem to fit that description, though. They seem to mourn the loss of being considered transgressive because it takes away some of the sexual spice.
“There are people” doesn’t make it the norm, it makes the exception a generalization. There are exceptions in all demographics.
“There are people” doesn’t make it the norm, it makes the exception a generalization. There are exceptions in all demographics.
????
Yuk. And you get to keep your money too. No cajoling and persuading over months of dinners,flowers,theatre trips,hints of a long term relationship etc. Frugal and money saving too.
Yes, Andrew, I have always thought that must be so.
There are people who seem to fit that description, though. They seem to mourn the loss of being considered transgressive because it takes away some of the sexual spice.
????
Yuk. And you get to keep your money too. No cajoling and persuading over months of dinners,flowers,theatre trips,hints of a long term relationship etc. Frugal and money saving too.
Yes, Andrew, I have always thought that must be so.
Transgression is the whole point. It has to be transgressive to be worth it.
I am actually gay and I’m not sure I want somehow not to be accepted. I do feel however that male sexuality can often be given its full lustful head in gay relationships (so to speak!) in a way not generally possible in the same way as heterosexual ones.
Transgression is the whole point. It has to be transgressive to be worth it.
Camille Paglia says this is because they want to occupy a status outside what is accepted. It’s part of the thrill of being gay.
One of the later chapters in Susan Faludi’s “Stiffed” (I think its titled “Wood”) is about the switch in power and status between male and female stars in the porn industry as of the early nineties. Surprising and fascinating accounts.
I find if difficult to believe all pornography involves abuse. I’ve watched interviews with porn actors on YouTube where they discuss their work and interviews with prostitutes in prison. Almost all say they do it because they like it, they can work as much or as little as they want, whenever they want, it’s easy money and a lot of money. Many of those who are concerned over safety have moved online or taken up work as SugarBabies; this includes tens of thousands of young women at university who are paying their own way and living debt free. If there is any nuance to be allowed then I think we have to recognise that it’s not all bad, not even close.
Men LOVE to believe this utter lie.
The information is available for all with eyes to see. Anyone can search YouTube and watch the interviews with prostitutes.
As far as student sex work is concerned there have been numerous articles written:
The Student Sex Work Project
http://www.thestudentsexworkproject.co.uk/
(Lottery Funded)
The Student Sex Work Project
http://www.thestudentsexworkproject.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TSSWP-Research-Summary-English.pdf
“University offers advice to student ‘sex workers’ as living costs continue to rise”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/university-offers-advice-student-sex-23763099
UNI ‘PIMPS’ STUDENTS University gives advice to students on how to juggle SEX WORK with lectures
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14397714/university-advice-students-juggle-sex-work-with-lectures/
“Sugar baby reveals what it is like to have a sugar daddy in Cambridge”
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/sugar-baby-reveals-what-like-19921174
University of Leicester’s ‘student sex worker’ toolkit
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10084365/University-Leicesters-student-sex-worker-toolkit-sparks-furious-backlash.html
Leicester Student’ Union : Sex Work
https://www.leicesterunion.com/support/adviceservice/leicestertalks/a-z/sexwork/
The Student Sex Work Project
http://www.thestudentsexworkproject.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TSSWP-Research-Summary-English.pdf
Yeah bucko, my point is that they are lying. You’re just a porn apologist. You need this to be true so you can enjoy it.
Can you please outline how/why the links are false?
And you apparently need to have your very personal opinion validated as truth without any regard to other people’s freedom of choice. Get a grip, bucka…
Can you please outline how/why the links are false?
And you apparently need to have your very personal opinion validated as truth without any regard to other people’s freedom of choice. Get a grip, bucka…
Yeah bucko, my point is that they are lying. You’re just a porn apologist. You need this to be true so you can enjoy it.
But those women must believe it also or they’re in denial. Perhaps for some it really is a choice and others not.
What is the difference between the women WS mentions and Nell Gwynne?
Mistress Nell Gwyn – Wikipedia
It simply is not true that all porn involves abuse. Do the girls on OnlyFans doipng solo content abuse themselves?
As for William’s points, you have girls at Oxford and Cambridge on sugarbaby websites. Zoe Strimpel wrote about it on here.
Men? Half the world?
Shall we respond that Women (the other half) LOVE to believe THAT lie?
Why do you believe that it’s impossible for someone to truly enjoy having meaningless sex for pay? There are tons of things done for a paycheck that most of us would hate to do….but our hateful rejection does not mean everyone equally hatefully rejects.
The world is a big place filled with lots of people with a whole bunch of likes and dislikes that are not at all like mine…or yours. I think that’s a given.
The information is available for all with eyes to see. Anyone can search YouTube and watch the interviews with prostitutes.
As far as student sex work is concerned there have been numerous articles written:
The Student Sex Work Project
http://www.thestudentsexworkproject.co.uk/
(Lottery Funded)
The Student Sex Work Project
http://www.thestudentsexworkproject.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TSSWP-Research-Summary-English.pdf
“University offers advice to student ‘sex workers’ as living costs continue to rise”
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/university-offers-advice-student-sex-23763099
UNI ‘PIMPS’ STUDENTS University gives advice to students on how to juggle SEX WORK with lectures
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14397714/university-advice-students-juggle-sex-work-with-lectures/
“Sugar baby reveals what it is like to have a sugar daddy in Cambridge”
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/sugar-baby-reveals-what-like-19921174
University of Leicester’s ‘student sex worker’ toolkit
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10084365/University-Leicesters-student-sex-worker-toolkit-sparks-furious-backlash.html
Leicester Student’ Union : Sex Work
https://www.leicesterunion.com/support/adviceservice/leicestertalks/a-z/sexwork/
The Student Sex Work Project
http://www.thestudentsexworkproject.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/TSSWP-Research-Summary-English.pdf
But those women must believe it also or they’re in denial. Perhaps for some it really is a choice and others not.
What is the difference between the women WS mentions and Nell Gwynne?
Mistress Nell Gwyn – Wikipedia
It simply is not true that all porn involves abuse. Do the girls on OnlyFans doipng solo content abuse themselves?
As for William’s points, you have girls at Oxford and Cambridge on sugarbaby websites. Zoe Strimpel wrote about it on here.
Men? Half the world?
Shall we respond that Women (the other half) LOVE to believe THAT lie?
Why do you believe that it’s impossible for someone to truly enjoy having meaningless sex for pay? There are tons of things done for a paycheck that most of us would hate to do….but our hateful rejection does not mean everyone equally hatefully rejects.
The world is a big place filled with lots of people with a whole bunch of likes and dislikes that are not at all like mine…or yours. I think that’s a given.
Because they’re all STUPID. Because they have to justify their life of humiliation and depravity as successful and worthwhile. We all have our own narrative of our life at odds with how our neighbours (the useless numpties) see us.
Well that’s a thoughtful comment…”they’re all stupid”.
Well that’s a thoughtful comment…”they’re all stupid”.
Clearly all pornography…all erotica…all content (of whatever type) that contains anything which may arouse a sexual interest… does not all involve abuse.
Some does, of course. Just as we can say that abuse is a part of all kinds of things (marriages, jobs, sports teams, church service, neighborhoods, etc.)
But the presence of a worm in some apples does not mean that there are worms in every apple.
Men LOVE to believe this utter lie.
Because they’re all STUPID. Because they have to justify their life of humiliation and depravity as successful and worthwhile. We all have our own narrative of our life at odds with how our neighbours (the useless numpties) see us.
Clearly all pornography…all erotica…all content (of whatever type) that contains anything which may arouse a sexual interest… does not all involve abuse.
Some does, of course. Just as we can say that abuse is a part of all kinds of things (marriages, jobs, sports teams, church service, neighborhoods, etc.)
But the presence of a worm in some apples does not mean that there are worms in every apple.
‘Acceptance creep’ or ‘permission creep’ might be a more precise definition of the liberalising process at work.
Consider for example, the status of same-sex relationships: first there were demands for tolerance, under the law and socially; after some years tolerance was not enough, parity with heterosexual relationships was demanded; before long parity was not enough – what about self-esteem? – same-sex relationships must be conspicuously celebrated with Pride flags and emblems – with days/weeks/months of Pride all of us are urged to show unstinting approval of same-sex relationships.
And what of that starting point: tolerance? A 180 degree turnaround. Dissent will not be tolerated.
One of the later chapters in Susan Faludi’s “Stiffed” (I think its titled “Wood”) is about the switch in power and status between male and female stars in the porn industry as of the early nineties. Surprising and fascinating accounts.
I find if difficult to believe all pornography involves abuse. I’ve watched interviews with porn actors on YouTube where they discuss their work and interviews with prostitutes in prison. Almost all say they do it because they like it, they can work as much or as little as they want, whenever they want, it’s easy money and a lot of money. Many of those who are concerned over safety have moved online or taken up work as SugarBabies; this includes tens of thousands of young women at university who are paying their own way and living debt free. If there is any nuance to be allowed then I think we have to recognise that it’s not all bad, not even close.
Correct.
Why did Jesus fall for Mary Magdalene instead of a bland housewife ?
Sick of all these Incels trying to groom our children into sexless droids.
Erotism will not destroy ones soul.
Do you know what an “incel” is?
That sounds like a knock knock joke! OK why did jesus fall for Mary instead of a bland housewife” do tell.
I forgot the end of that bible story where Jesus Christ continued to support Miss Magdalene’s sex work career by giving her money in exchange for sexual favors.
But I haven’t been to Sunday school in years.
You’re clearly no theologian, positing a wild theory (on a par with conspiracy theories) about Jesus.
And the housewives I know are gorgeous and brilliant women.
No one should be grooming any children – or adults! – to be either sexual (or sexless) by reading them inappropriate books, or taking them to drag shows (which are titillation for the gay community – and why does no one ever question the psychological health of wanting to have sex with a man imitating a woman? We used to question everything).
Porn harms everyone involved in it. Porn stars usually have histories of sexual abuse, and are addicted to drugs to cope with their compromising work and major emotional problems; they’re not ‘sex workers’. A third of young men now have erectile problems — how sad, to say nothing of it being utterly ignoble, and not how we raise children. And ultimately children are at the bottom of its pit; porn addiction goes through stages of needing younger and younger porn actors to get the same ‘hit’. I know this as I used to work with the police.
If porn were fine, no one would mind their relatives or spouses working in the industry.
We should ban it outright.
“Porn harms everyone involved in it.”
I agree. Because pornography use is addictive, as Isabella Woods accurately describes, such use needs to be discussed as the health hazard it is. Then public opinion can take over as it has with smoking.
“Porn harms everyone involved in it.”
I agree. Because pornography use is addictive, as Isabella Woods accurately describes, such use needs to be discussed as the health hazard it is. Then public opinion can take over as it has with smoking.
She was a fallen woman so she could repent .
Do you know what an “incel” is?
That sounds like a knock knock joke! OK why did jesus fall for Mary instead of a bland housewife” do tell.
I forgot the end of that bible story where Jesus Christ continued to support Miss Magdalene’s sex work career by giving her money in exchange for sexual favors.
But I haven’t been to Sunday school in years.
You’re clearly no theologian, positing a wild theory (on a par with conspiracy theories) about Jesus.
And the housewives I know are gorgeous and brilliant women.
No one should be grooming any children – or adults! – to be either sexual (or sexless) by reading them inappropriate books, or taking them to drag shows (which are titillation for the gay community – and why does no one ever question the psychological health of wanting to have sex with a man imitating a woman? We used to question everything).
Porn harms everyone involved in it. Porn stars usually have histories of sexual abuse, and are addicted to drugs to cope with their compromising work and major emotional problems; they’re not ‘sex workers’. A third of young men now have erectile problems — how sad, to say nothing of it being utterly ignoble, and not how we raise children. And ultimately children are at the bottom of its pit; porn addiction goes through stages of needing younger and younger porn actors to get the same ‘hit’. I know this as I used to work with the police.
If porn were fine, no one would mind their relatives or spouses working in the industry.
We should ban it outright.
She was a fallen woman so she could repent .
At the end of the seventies the California communes were full of forlorn women with small children who’d bought into that bullshit, trying to figure out what the hell happened to their lives.
Good grief what a generalization.
Good grief what a generalization.
I grew up in the San Fernando Valley–pron capital of the world–in the days just before VHS. Words cannot describe the strangeness of hearing foucault-inflected accounts of rape as being about “power” (with the thinly veiled implication that every little boy is a rapist waiting to happen) during the school day, only to be surrounded by free “erotic” newspapers and adult film theaters as I walked to music lessons in the afternoon. One adjusts to one’s circumstances but nuance hadn’t a thing do do with it. To the contrary, it was a preparation for the ham fisted sadomaschistic “norms” that prevail today!
Ah so you were the exception, the holier than thou little boy going to his music lesson.
Ah so you were the exception, the holier than thou little boy going to his music lesson.
50 years ago I said yes because I didn’t want to be stigmatised as a Mary Whitehouse clone which was the worst condemnation they came out with. It was a fatal mistake for my reputation,and guess what a fallen woman in 2023,in 1983 and in 1973 is exactly the same as a fallen woman in 1853,in 1753 etc all the way back to antiquity. The campaign to get society accepting of gay sex started off representing it as a matter of thwarted love,denied relationships and thus death,but no one dies from not having sex,but a lot die from having sex. In childbirth or from contagion. They engaged our sympathy. We “got” that Steve and Dave needed to be able to live just like any other bourgeois couple. It was a bit disturbing that Steve and Dave despite owning a nice house together with at least 3 bedrooms preferred to have sex in the Russell Square gardens but when challenged explained that gay sexuality is not like boring dull old hetero sexuality. Of course having got the gay victory the agents behind this agenda moved on as was their plan. It was and is nothing to do with equality and personal happiness. It’s about destroying people from the inside,and,another important element reducing and even removing people’s fertility. That’s why they’ve moved on to promoting trans especially in children. Gay people can still engender children by one method or another. But people who have had their insides messed with before puberty will very likely be rendered infertile which is what THEY want. And I don’t know who They are but I know they are our there. Maybe if I knew the names,they’d kill me!
Yikes!! You sound unhinged and paranoid. What happened to cause you to feel this way?
I suppose it depends how big Dave was as to whether he destroyed Steve from the inside
Yikes!! You sound unhinged and paranoid. What happened to cause you to feel this way?
I suppose it depends how big Dave was as to whether he destroyed Steve from the inside
Sadly, thanks to “concept creep” the term sex positive now means rape positive and pedophile positive. And what’s with these “furries”? I guess we’re supposed to be bestiality positive as well.
There is no excuse for enabling the extremely harmful and abusive porn industry.
I’m fine with filmed erotica created by adult professional actors who control their work – but that type of erotica has been buried by mountains of rape flicks that are far more profitable.
Correct.
Why did Jesus fall for Mary Magdalene instead of a bland housewife ?
Sick of all these Incels trying to groom our children into sexless droids.
Erotism will not destroy ones soul.
At the end of the seventies the California communes were full of forlorn women with small children who’d bought into that bullshit, trying to figure out what the hell happened to their lives.
I grew up in the San Fernando Valley–pron capital of the world–in the days just before VHS. Words cannot describe the strangeness of hearing foucault-inflected accounts of rape as being about “power” (with the thinly veiled implication that every little boy is a rapist waiting to happen) during the school day, only to be surrounded by free “erotic” newspapers and adult film theaters as I walked to music lessons in the afternoon. One adjusts to one’s circumstances but nuance hadn’t a thing do do with it. To the contrary, it was a preparation for the ham fisted sadomaschistic “norms” that prevail today!
50 years ago I said yes because I didn’t want to be stigmatised as a Mary Whitehouse clone which was the worst condemnation they came out with. It was a fatal mistake for my reputation,and guess what a fallen woman in 2023,in 1983 and in 1973 is exactly the same as a fallen woman in 1853,in 1753 etc all the way back to antiquity. The campaign to get society accepting of gay sex started off representing it as a matter of thwarted love,denied relationships and thus death,but no one dies from not having sex,but a lot die from having sex. In childbirth or from contagion. They engaged our sympathy. We “got” that Steve and Dave needed to be able to live just like any other bourgeois couple. It was a bit disturbing that Steve and Dave despite owning a nice house together with at least 3 bedrooms preferred to have sex in the Russell Square gardens but when challenged explained that gay sexuality is not like boring dull old hetero sexuality. Of course having got the gay victory the agents behind this agenda moved on as was their plan. It was and is nothing to do with equality and personal happiness. It’s about destroying people from the inside,and,another important element reducing and even removing people’s fertility. That’s why they’ve moved on to promoting trans especially in children. Gay people can still engender children by one method or another. But people who have had their insides messed with before puberty will very likely be rendered infertile which is what THEY want. And I don’t know who They are but I know they are our there. Maybe if I knew the names,they’d kill me!
The left-leaning boomer generation grew up with (and propagated) the idea that freedom from “sex hangups” was important for mental health and good politics (all that Wilhelm Reich inspired orgasm worship). To be right-wing was to be sexually-repressed and vice versa.
These days we are all left/liberal to some degree and concerned that we might be judged as judgemental (ie. repressed, limited, small-minded, unwholesome). Hence the need to be seen as sex-positive.
Excellent essay. I’m reminded of what Billie Eilish said about being addicted to online porn at a very young age and how utterly warped by it she had become. Sex without love is a sad, empty, selfish thing, but pornography and the abuse necessary to produce it poisons all who touch it, whether they know it or not.
Sex without love is great, I enjoyed every second of it. Hopefully the girls did as well
You always chime in to say this. Keep believing the girls can’t stop thinking about you, Billy.
You have to love the self righteousness of Puritans such as yourself, just because it isn’t your cup of tea then it must be immoral and nobody else should enjoy it!
I also don’t believe I ever said that they’re still thinking of me. The amount of time I’ve been with my missus now, I’d hope none of them are living that far in the past that I’m anything more than a slightly blurred memory
You have to love the self righteousness of Puritans such as yourself, just because it isn’t your cup of tea then it must be immoral and nobody else should enjoy it!
I also don’t believe I ever said that they’re still thinking of me. The amount of time I’ve been with my missus now, I’d hope none of them are living that far in the past that I’m anything more than a slightly blurred memory
No they didn’t.
A few seemed happy to go for seconds so it couldn’t have been all bad
A few seemed happy to go for seconds so it couldn’t have been all bad
Exactly, Billy Bob perhaps I was one of them, who knows!!
If you were then I’m sorry, you could have done so much better!
If you were then I’m sorry, you could have done so much better!
You always chime in to say this. Keep believing the girls can’t stop thinking about you, Billy.
No they didn’t.
Exactly, Billy Bob perhaps I was one of them, who knows!!
More generalizations. Sex without love isn’t always “a sad empty, selfish thing” by a long shot. It may be better attached to love, who knows.
Well Clare, one gets the impression that Jane Baker, Laney Sexton, Allison Barrows and so many others who posted above “know” – because they cannot conceive of a world where their opinions are not allowed to trump everyone else’s. They ought to be right, or else the world needs to end. Sex and religion indeed are powerful elements of life, easily overwhelming people’s ability to reason…
Well Clare, one gets the impression that Jane Baker, Laney Sexton, Allison Barrows and so many others who posted above “know” – because they cannot conceive of a world where their opinions are not allowed to trump everyone else’s. They ought to be right, or else the world needs to end. Sex and religion indeed are powerful elements of life, easily overwhelming people’s ability to reason…
Sex without love is great, I enjoyed every second of it. Hopefully the girls did as well
More generalizations. Sex without love isn’t always “a sad empty, selfish thing” by a long shot. It may be better attached to love, who knows.
Excellent essay. I’m reminded of what Billie Eilish said about being addicted to online porn at a very young age and how utterly warped by it she had become. Sex without love is a sad, empty, selfish thing, but pornography and the abuse necessary to produce it poisons all who touch it, whether they know it or not.
Fantastic article – the hypocrisy of progressive thinking on sex is ripe for exposure and I hope this essay contributes to that.
The hypocrisy of progressive thinking defies sanity. “helpless conflictedness” was an appropriate term. The same conflictedness apparent in fighting for abortion on demand one day and fighting against cruelty towards animals the next. Or placing a “hate has no home here” sign in front of your $3 million, alarm-laden home. Or seeing a “save the planet” bumper sticker on a $125k gas guzzling SUV, parked on the driveway of a 8,000 SQFT home with 3 air conditioning zones and enough lights on to be seen from space.
Or screaming for no borders from behind your gated mansion, located in a town where the least expensive home is over $1 million and the police immediately whisk away anyone who looks “suspicious”.
Or my all time favorite….fighting against school choice while your own kids go to private academy.
I was just going to say this. The only reason Democrats support the shitty teacher’s unions is because not one of their kids has set foot in a public school. Ditto border control – if illegal aliens were taking jobs from lawyers, the media and university professors the sanctuary city nonsense would stop immediately.
I’ll have to be sure to let my Democrat friends with kids in public school know that they’re violating your terms. Maybe they’ll be able to scrape up the money to send them to private school. Probably not.
Why the f**k does clicking an up arrow cause the vote to go down? I don’t understand how the voting works here, and I’ve asked the powers that be to please explain it to me. I haven’t heard back yet. But Nona I want you to know I gave you an upvote which made it subtract not add!!
The quality of public schools usually depend on value of homes of parents unless they have rigorous selection based upon exams.
Why the f**k does clicking an up arrow cause the vote to go down? I don’t understand how the voting works here, and I’ve asked the powers that be to please explain it to me. I haven’t heard back yet. But Nona I want you to know I gave you an upvote which made it subtract not add!!
The quality of public schools usually depend on value of homes of parents unless they have rigorous selection based upon exams.
Oh dear where am I. When I started to read Unherd I thought the articles were original and interesting, I didn’t realize I’d stepped into a morass of bigotry. I didn’t realize it was an “us versus them” thing. But here I am with a voice of moderation. Well, I like to go where angels fear to tread, and since I do battle in the comments section of the NYP I shall stick it out here.
I’ll have to be sure to let my Democrat friends with kids in public school know that they’re violating your terms. Maybe they’ll be able to scrape up the money to send them to private school. Probably not.
Oh dear where am I. When I started to read Unherd I thought the articles were original and interesting, I didn’t realize I’d stepped into a morass of bigotry. I didn’t realize it was an “us versus them” thing. But here I am with a voice of moderation. Well, I like to go where angels fear to tread, and since I do battle in the comments section of the NYP I shall stick it out here.
But these aren’t progressives, these are conservatives.
I was just going to say this. The only reason Democrats support the shitty teacher’s unions is because not one of their kids has set foot in a public school. Ditto border control – if illegal aliens were taking jobs from lawyers, the media and university professors the sanctuary city nonsense would stop immediately.
But these aren’t progressives, these are conservatives.
Gosh, just as well that hypocrisy is restricted to just part of the political spectrum, the ‘left’ then. How awful if would be if it was found everywhere!
Whataboutery. So they can all be hypocritical now what?
It’s interesting to me that few comment on the different consequences of the extremism of the left and right. On one hand, drag queen library hour. On the other hand, insurrection. While the dynamics are pretty much the same–hysteria, name-calling, gaslighting, band-wagon, mob rule–the dangers posed to the polity are not. I’ll take drag queen story hour over armed insurrectionists any day. And I’m no fan of drag queen story hour, lemme tell ya.
Nona ,I again tried to give you an up arrow and it went down from minus one, in red, to zero!!I just don’t get it.
Nona ,I again tried to give you an up arrow and it went down from minus one, in red, to zero!!I just don’t get it.
Exactly Tony!!
Whataboutery. So they can all be hypocritical now what?
It’s interesting to me that few comment on the different consequences of the extremism of the left and right. On one hand, drag queen library hour. On the other hand, insurrection. While the dynamics are pretty much the same–hysteria, name-calling, gaslighting, band-wagon, mob rule–the dangers posed to the polity are not. I’ll take drag queen story hour over armed insurrectionists any day. And I’m no fan of drag queen story hour, lemme tell ya.
Exactly Tony!!
“No borders” also means the resident of the $1 million house can get inexpensive nannies, housekeepers, and gardeners.
Exactly!
Exactly!
To equate abortion with cruelty to animals is very silly. And who are you to say that women who fight for the freedom to choose are conflicted.
Or my all time favorite….fighting against school choice while your own kids go to private academy.
Gosh, just as well that hypocrisy is restricted to just part of the political spectrum, the ‘left’ then. How awful if would be if it was found everywhere!
“No borders” also means the resident of the $1 million house can get inexpensive nannies, housekeepers, and gardeners.
To equate abortion with cruelty to animals is very silly. And who are you to say that women who fight for the freedom to choose are conflicted.
The hypocrisy of progressive thinking defies sanity. “helpless conflictedness” was an appropriate term. The same conflictedness apparent in fighting for abortion on demand one day and fighting against cruelty towards animals the next. Or placing a “hate has no home here” sign in front of your $3 million, alarm-laden home. Or seeing a “save the planet” bumper sticker on a $125k gas guzzling SUV, parked on the driveway of a 8,000 SQFT home with 3 air conditioning zones and enough lights on to be seen from space.
Or screaming for no borders from behind your gated mansion, located in a town where the least expensive home is over $1 million and the police immediately whisk away anyone who looks “suspicious”.
Fantastic article – the hypocrisy of progressive thinking on sex is ripe for exposure and I hope this essay contributes to that.
Porn is addictive. It’s like any drug – over time you need a bigger dose to get the same hit. Most people can drink/view porn in moderation and without harming others. A few can’t and need help, but I suspect owning up to an addiction to porn is even harder than admitting alcohol addiction.
I think there are support groups for porn addicts.
It’s however hardly something people hope their children will grow up and engage with, right? Looking at their sweet children asleep?
And no one who wants to be a ‘good’ person would include masturbation in their conceptual panoply of noble behaviours.
Why do you think the word ‘wanker’ exists?! Because it is associated with being sad, desperate, and lacking in self-control.
You can’t imagine any of the heroes and heroines of literature engaging in it.
Actually anything that feeds an appetite has the potential to be addictive. And addiction — to anything — meaning feeling an involuntary compulsion to indulge in that thing (even to the point of damage) can be dangerous and harmful, be it porn….or nicotine….or thinness…or jogging….or Nintendo…or writing in comment forums.
The vast majority of us typically dance the dance of moderation.
I think there are support groups for porn addicts.
It’s however hardly something people hope their children will grow up and engage with, right? Looking at their sweet children asleep?
And no one who wants to be a ‘good’ person would include masturbation in their conceptual panoply of noble behaviours.
Why do you think the word ‘wanker’ exists?! Because it is associated with being sad, desperate, and lacking in self-control.
You can’t imagine any of the heroes and heroines of literature engaging in it.
Actually anything that feeds an appetite has the potential to be addictive. And addiction — to anything — meaning feeling an involuntary compulsion to indulge in that thing (even to the point of damage) can be dangerous and harmful, be it porn….or nicotine….or thinness…or jogging….or Nintendo…or writing in comment forums.
The vast majority of us typically dance the dance of moderation.
Porn is addictive. It’s like any drug – over time you need a bigger dose to get the same hit. Most people can drink/view porn in moderation and without harming others. A few can’t and need help, but I suspect owning up to an addiction to porn is even harder than admitting alcohol addiction.
Why do progressives watch porn?
Same reason as everyone else?
Exactly: because they are hypocrites who care more about their boners than they do about vulnerable human beings. Both conservative and progressive men stop caring about human rights when it comes to their orgasms.
Penny, your other posts citing the sexual abuse you suffered as a child are stomach-churning (I’ve endured it myself at the hands of a family member and other people in positions of trust). I am hopeful that you will discover that most men (of whatever political persuasion) are deeply caring, protective people who wouldn’t dream of hurting women or children, and are not lead around by their erections.
“Most”, I’m really not sure what the stats are.
“Most”, I’m really not sure what the stats are.
Get help.
Seriously.
A thoughtless comment.
A thoughtless comment.
What on earth does an orgasm have to do with human rights? If one is pro-human rights does that mean one is anti-orgasm? And if one is pro-orgasm, do you believe that requires one to be anti-human rights?
The connection you are seeking does not exist.
Penny, your other posts citing the sexual abuse you suffered as a child are stomach-churning (I’ve endured it myself at the hands of a family member and other people in positions of trust). I am hopeful that you will discover that most men (of whatever political persuasion) are deeply caring, protective people who wouldn’t dream of hurting women or children, and are not lead around by their erections.
Get help.
Seriously.
What on earth does an orgasm have to do with human rights? If one is pro-human rights does that mean one is anti-orgasm? And if one is pro-orgasm, do you believe that requires one to be anti-human rights?
The connection you are seeking does not exist.
You win.
Exactly: because they are hypocrites who care more about their boners than they do about vulnerable human beings. Both conservative and progressive men stop caring about human rights when it comes to their orgasms.
You win.
Why do progressives watch porn?
Same reason as everyone else?
Some of the “nuanced comments” posted here prove your point. Great essay.
Some of the “nuanced comments” posted here prove your point. Great essay.
There are two phrases: “It’s complicated” and “Let me explain!”. Whenever I hear these anymore – in a movie, in real life – I know someone is about to try to sell some murky specious bullshit that they’d never want to see foisted on themselves or anyone they really cared about.
“Darling – first – it is not pornography- it is erotica – let me explain ….”
“Darling – first – it is not pornography- it is erotica – let me explain ….”
There are two phrases: “It’s complicated” and “Let me explain!”. Whenever I hear these anymore – in a movie, in real life – I know someone is about to try to sell some murky specious bullshit that they’d never want to see foisted on themselves or anyone they really cared about.
This article starts with a fantastic point about modernity: the meandering, confused nature of a burgeoning conversational podcast culture. Instead of aiming for simple, but not too simple, it seems to be continually aiming for meander, nuance and endless openness.
Yes, openness is great but 4 hour conversations with no conclusions? 4 hour conversations with no strong position or intuited one?
This is the norm now, extensive conversations watched by millions and applause all around for never coming to a conclusion but just meandering around. I guess the assumptions are the audience must make up their mind. But this is not what I believe is happening, people are continually looking for the next one, the one that will answer their questions.
I’m not attacking the expansive or revolutionary nature of it, it’s just that so many self styled conversational podcasters are just filling up our hard drives instead of bringing us closer to reason. This is heralded by people like Lex Fridmann etc. A nice opposite is Jordan Peterson but still, so much content, so little conclusions even if he has a strong position.
Again, ideas aren’t always conclusive and podcasts are better than nothing, but I just feel that too much of podcast culture is thriving in this sea of inconclusive, perspectival nuance.
Also, final small note on pornography. Any normal relatively undamaged human being knows porn is degrading to themselves and the people being observed. There’s no world in which billions of free consumable sexual encounters is good for a civilisation or a culture. It might placate the worst instincts in some instances, or relieve ‘stress’ or urges in others, but ultimately it’s generally destructive of intimacy, romance, discreteness, spirituality and yearning. Perspectives aren’t what is needed here, instead values are, and strong convictions that your sexuality is better being expressed in the world in the most beautiful way with other human beings than viewing endless amounts of other sexualities and instances outside yourself. Of course I’m not suggesting any sexuality (whatever it is) should be expressed, especially if it is perverted or worse; but that you should cultivate discipline and a healthy sexuality to find deep revelation, and connection to others, through it.
And that is the serrmon for today.
And that is the serrmon for today.
This article starts with a fantastic point about modernity: the meandering, confused nature of a burgeoning conversational podcast culture. Instead of aiming for simple, but not too simple, it seems to be continually aiming for meander, nuance and endless openness.
Yes, openness is great but 4 hour conversations with no conclusions? 4 hour conversations with no strong position or intuited one?
This is the norm now, extensive conversations watched by millions and applause all around for never coming to a conclusion but just meandering around. I guess the assumptions are the audience must make up their mind. But this is not what I believe is happening, people are continually looking for the next one, the one that will answer their questions.
I’m not attacking the expansive or revolutionary nature of it, it’s just that so many self styled conversational podcasters are just filling up our hard drives instead of bringing us closer to reason. This is heralded by people like Lex Fridmann etc. A nice opposite is Jordan Peterson but still, so much content, so little conclusions even if he has a strong position.
Again, ideas aren’t always conclusive and podcasts are better than nothing, but I just feel that too much of podcast culture is thriving in this sea of inconclusive, perspectival nuance.
Also, final small note on pornography. Any normal relatively undamaged human being knows porn is degrading to themselves and the people being observed. There’s no world in which billions of free consumable sexual encounters is good for a civilisation or a culture. It might placate the worst instincts in some instances, or relieve ‘stress’ or urges in others, but ultimately it’s generally destructive of intimacy, romance, discreteness, spirituality and yearning. Perspectives aren’t what is needed here, instead values are, and strong convictions that your sexuality is better being expressed in the world in the most beautiful way with other human beings than viewing endless amounts of other sexualities and instances outside yourself. Of course I’m not suggesting any sexuality (whatever it is) should be expressed, especially if it is perverted or worse; but that you should cultivate discipline and a healthy sexuality to find deep revelation, and connection to others, through it.
The author seems to be using the terms Porn and Sex interchangeably, which is a mistake. Porn is theatre. It is acting. Those screams of joy and pain are not real. Is it morally reprehensible theatre? Perhaps.
If it is real, say a filmed rape, then it is not Porn. In the same way that someone getting shot dead on stage is clearly not Theatre. We must make this separation before we make wholesale judgement.
So ultimately the author’s argument becomes one of consent, predicated on the notion that no one can ‘truly’ consent to being harmed. But here’s the rub. Some people really do want to get ‘beaten by the schoolmaster’ or bloodied on the rugby pitch or face bullets on a battlefield. Is this a sickness? Maybe. But it’s far more common than the author implies and none of these people would think of themselves as victims.
I ‘m sorry to inform you but real women are used and abused in the making of pornography. Their screams and tears are real.
Here’s the problem: how do you know the woman “pretending” to be raped is actually pretending? You do not know. You may be masturbating to actual filmed rape.
Also, many trafficking victims are used to produce porn.
You cannot pretend you don’t know this.
You are not much better than a rapist if you watch internet porn.
That’s sadomasicism and yes there needs to be a differentiation between force and consent. But does the consumer care if there’s a difference or not?
That’s an interesting point.
But equally we might ask, do we care, when we look at, let’s say, The Mona Lisa, whether the model, Lisa del Giocondo (who was married at 15 to a man tat least twice her age) was herself abused within that marriage? The answer, of course, is not really — save as an interesting historical note to a classic painting.
Most typically, when we look at a work of art (and I’m speaking of both high art and low art) we are exposed to and are interested in only the visible portion of the art that we can easily and directly access. We have no idea as to the real stories behind the real people who are involved in the making of the art. As consumers, to answer your question, we really don’t care. We simply appreciate the final product.
Penny, above, asks much the same question: how do we know that the women seemingly acting a rape (let’s say Jody Foster, in the accused) is not actually being raped for the camera? The answer, again, is we don’t know. We trust that a felony is not being committed before our eyes, but we don’t know that it isn’t. We don’t know, as a for instance, that the child, Jody Foster was not subject to abuse as a young actress in Hollywood. It wouldn’t be a totally uncommon thing. We simply trust that there was no abuse…and we appreciate the art as it stands.
When Tina Turner sang Proud Mary in 1971, as a part of the Ike & Tina Turner duo, we know (now) that Ike was abusing Tina. Still, we loved the song. We still love it. We don’t stop enjoying it because it came from such a place even when we actually know it did.
Erotic Art (Pornography) is no different. The viewer trusts that it is an entertainment…and not abuse being filmed. This question gets much blurrier as you move away from movies or video clips and look at images. Is the woman pictured, with a large grin…is she faking it? Is she a victim? Is she under duress? Did she consent to the picture and its posting? We don’t know. But if it’s a beautiful picture we appreciate it for its beauty.
That’s an interesting point.
But equally we might ask, do we care, when we look at, let’s say, The Mona Lisa, whether the model, Lisa del Giocondo (who was married at 15 to a man tat least twice her age) was herself abused within that marriage? The answer, of course, is not really — save as an interesting historical note to a classic painting.
Most typically, when we look at a work of art (and I’m speaking of both high art and low art) we are exposed to and are interested in only the visible portion of the art that we can easily and directly access. We have no idea as to the real stories behind the real people who are involved in the making of the art. As consumers, to answer your question, we really don’t care. We simply appreciate the final product.
Penny, above, asks much the same question: how do we know that the women seemingly acting a rape (let’s say Jody Foster, in the accused) is not actually being raped for the camera? The answer, again, is we don’t know. We trust that a felony is not being committed before our eyes, but we don’t know that it isn’t. We don’t know, as a for instance, that the child, Jody Foster was not subject to abuse as a young actress in Hollywood. It wouldn’t be a totally uncommon thing. We simply trust that there was no abuse…and we appreciate the art as it stands.
When Tina Turner sang Proud Mary in 1971, as a part of the Ike & Tina Turner duo, we know (now) that Ike was abusing Tina. Still, we loved the song. We still love it. We don’t stop enjoying it because it came from such a place even when we actually know it did.
Erotic Art (Pornography) is no different. The viewer trusts that it is an entertainment…and not abuse being filmed. This question gets much blurrier as you move away from movies or video clips and look at images. Is the woman pictured, with a large grin…is she faking it? Is she a victim? Is she under duress? Did she consent to the picture and its posting? We don’t know. But if it’s a beautiful picture we appreciate it for its beauty.
I ‘m sorry to inform you but real women are used and abused in the making of pornography. Their screams and tears are real.
Here’s the problem: how do you know the woman “pretending” to be raped is actually pretending? You do not know. You may be masturbating to actual filmed rape.
Also, many trafficking victims are used to produce porn.
You cannot pretend you don’t know this.
You are not much better than a rapist if you watch internet porn.
That’s sadomasicism and yes there needs to be a differentiation between force and consent. But does the consumer care if there’s a difference or not?
The author seems to be using the terms Porn and Sex interchangeably, which is a mistake. Porn is theatre. It is acting. Those screams of joy and pain are not real. Is it morally reprehensible theatre? Perhaps.
If it is real, say a filmed rape, then it is not Porn. In the same way that someone getting shot dead on stage is clearly not Theatre. We must make this separation before we make wholesale judgement.
So ultimately the author’s argument becomes one of consent, predicated on the notion that no one can ‘truly’ consent to being harmed. But here’s the rub. Some people really do want to get ‘beaten by the schoolmaster’ or bloodied on the rugby pitch or face bullets on a battlefield. Is this a sickness? Maybe. But it’s far more common than the author implies and none of these people would think of themselves as victims.
Do people still distinguish between ‘soft porn’ and ‘hard porn’? Or is it all just lumped together as one now?
Much like the marijuana market it’s difficult to get hold of the gentle stuff these days.
This analogy is spot on.
This analogy is spot on.
They do not, and that is a problem.
I am fine with erotica which involves mutual pleasure and tendernesss – but even then there should be far stricter regulations to ensure the actors are adults, are willing, are well paid, and have control over the use of their images.
Even erotica can be cruelly exploitive these days.
I feel creepy and uncomfortable watching simulated sex scenes in mainstream movies because I worry about the actors and how embarrassed they must feel. But porn and “sex positivity” seems to have killed empathy.
I skip the sex scenes in most films. Just blip right past ’em. There was one I saw recently (damned if I can remember the name of the film, although it featured Edie Falco) that was lovely, but most are just filler, and unpleasant filler at that: either tedious and predictable, or violent and disturbing. Had my fill of that. There’s now a job for people to monitor the safety of actors doing these sorts of scenes: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/02/business/intimacy-coordinator-sex-scenes-film-jessica-steinrock.html
I don’t watch movies,only old British ealing comedies as I have a very short attention span and most films just chunter on far too long but I often read film reviews thus I know what many films of the last few decades are about. Recently I’ve come across maybe coincidentally several different and independent of each other accounts by big lady movie stars telling how some scene they acted in ,in a 80s,90s or so movie was actually a deeply humiliating and embarrassing experience for them and which they now regret. I guess at the time they were too embarrassed to speak out or they would lose their “cool” status.
Worry not they’re very well paid and consenting.
I skip the sex scenes in most films. Just blip right past ’em. There was one I saw recently (damned if I can remember the name of the film, although it featured Edie Falco) that was lovely, but most are just filler, and unpleasant filler at that: either tedious and predictable, or violent and disturbing. Had my fill of that. There’s now a job for people to monitor the safety of actors doing these sorts of scenes: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/02/business/intimacy-coordinator-sex-scenes-film-jessica-steinrock.html
I don’t watch movies,only old British ealing comedies as I have a very short attention span and most films just chunter on far too long but I often read film reviews thus I know what many films of the last few decades are about. Recently I’ve come across maybe coincidentally several different and independent of each other accounts by big lady movie stars telling how some scene they acted in ,in a 80s,90s or so movie was actually a deeply humiliating and embarrassing experience for them and which they now regret. I guess at the time they were too embarrassed to speak out or they would lose their “cool” status.
Worry not they’re very well paid and consenting.
Much like the marijuana market it’s difficult to get hold of the gentle stuff these days.
They do not, and that is a problem.
I am fine with erotica which involves mutual pleasure and tendernesss – but even then there should be far stricter regulations to ensure the actors are adults, are willing, are well paid, and have control over the use of their images.
Even erotica can be cruelly exploitive these days.
I feel creepy and uncomfortable watching simulated sex scenes in mainstream movies because I worry about the actors and how embarrassed they must feel. But porn and “sex positivity” seems to have killed empathy.
Do people still distinguish between ‘soft porn’ and ‘hard porn’? Or is it all just lumped together as one now?
I’m puzzled. The vast majority of porn is not”rape” porn. It’s fantasy, where a girl and a guy emulate lust for each other and thengo through three or four sexual positions followed by an ejaculation.
Not saying it’s good, but the author is overstating the amount of violence in porn considerably. Most of it is 18-25 year old girls having sex with well-endowed men for money.
They are exploited – their lives are forever in the shadow of their porn “career” and they don’t make much money at the end, considering what they’ve given up. Drug use and suicide are common. Look up Dakota Skye …
…”overstating the amount of violence in porn”? Are you an expert on the subject or from watching? Porn IS violence done mainly to women and children, and as such should be banned. Watch the film “Pleasure” by Ninja Thyberg or read “Pornland” by Gail Dines.
Are you saying that the majority of porn contains depictions of violence, or are you saying that the commonly depicted scenario “where a girl and a guy emulate lust for each other and thengo through three or four sexual positions followed by an ejaculation” is itself a form of violence?
If you’re claiming the former, I think you need to check your sources, because as far as I can tell myself, Will Longfield is quite right that most porn does not contain depictions of violence.
If you are claiming the latter, then you’re simply talking nonsense.
Are you saying that the majority of porn contains depictions of violence, or are you saying that the commonly depicted scenario “where a girl and a guy emulate lust for each other and thengo through three or four sexual positions followed by an ejaculation” is itself a form of violence?
If you’re claiming the former, I think you need to check your sources, because as far as I can tell myself, Will Longfield is quite right that most porn does not contain depictions of violence.
If you are claiming the latter, then you’re simply talking nonsense.
I agree. But I would also suggest that we overuse the word ‘exploited’.
Children can be exploited by adults, because they know no better. But it’s much more difficult for Adult X to exploit Adult Y unless Y herself is complicit in the so-called exploitation. If Bob tells Debbie that if she has sex in front of a camera he’ll pay her $5K…and she agrees…and she does…and he pays her…is that exploitation? I’d say no. Perhaps he took advantage of her naivete … but she was clearly taking advantage of her youthful beauty to get a quick $5K. If both walk away thinking they got a great deal — where’s the exploitation? (maybe we should ask Harvey Weinstein…in 2000 and again in 2023)
As for drug use? Yeah, probably, I’d guess. I don’t think anyone has any data. But equally I’d say drug use is probably common in the entertainment industry entirely. And we can find crash & burn examples pretty much everywhere (even on Wall Street & the Catholic Church).
I suspect the question is much murkier than we think it is.
…”overstating the amount of violence in porn”? Are you an expert on the subject or from watching? Porn IS violence done mainly to women and children, and as such should be banned. Watch the film “Pleasure” by Ninja Thyberg or read “Pornland” by Gail Dines.
I agree. But I would also suggest that we overuse the word ‘exploited’.
Children can be exploited by adults, because they know no better. But it’s much more difficult for Adult X to exploit Adult Y unless Y herself is complicit in the so-called exploitation. If Bob tells Debbie that if she has sex in front of a camera he’ll pay her $5K…and she agrees…and she does…and he pays her…is that exploitation? I’d say no. Perhaps he took advantage of her naivete … but she was clearly taking advantage of her youthful beauty to get a quick $5K. If both walk away thinking they got a great deal — where’s the exploitation? (maybe we should ask Harvey Weinstein…in 2000 and again in 2023)
As for drug use? Yeah, probably, I’d guess. I don’t think anyone has any data. But equally I’d say drug use is probably common in the entertainment industry entirely. And we can find crash & burn examples pretty much everywhere (even on Wall Street & the Catholic Church).
I suspect the question is much murkier than we think it is.
I’m puzzled. The vast majority of porn is not”rape” porn. It’s fantasy, where a girl and a guy emulate lust for each other and thengo through three or four sexual positions followed by an ejaculation.
Not saying it’s good, but the author is overstating the amount of violence in porn considerably. Most of it is 18-25 year old girls having sex with well-endowed men for money.
They are exploited – their lives are forever in the shadow of their porn “career” and they don’t make much money at the end, considering what they’ve given up. Drug use and suicide are common. Look up Dakota Skye …
A modicum of research into Pornhub, reveals the following:
The girls featured are more than stunningly attractive, and one assumes capable of attracting any number of rich partners who would ensure that they did not have to work in porn.
The most watched are 40 yrs old +.
The most popular have their own web sites, and social media, and their own publicised ” media identity”.
It is manifestly ludicrous to suggest that these women are in any way co-erced into their choice of work, and many of them are actually married.
This is not merely opinion but statistical fact.
A modicum of decency is obviously lacking here. There is only one solution for certain types of men who will have you believe that Pornhub is just a platform where pretty “girls” (some are 40!) willingly open their legs to make ends meet or buy the next Gucci bag, whilst denying (and assuaging their guilty consciences?!) the horrific reality of violence and abuse of women and children (“small” detail…) in porn: a shotgun to the crotch. Then force them to read “Pornland” by Gail Dines.
A modicum of context is obviously lacking here.
“Decency” seems to be your banner to justify criminalizing the factually true free choice of the women that make money out of porn (no, you cannot deny this reality…) and screaming that the only porn that exists involves the abuses you are screaming about. Reality disqualifies your stance. And no, you don’t get to tell anyone what they should like in terms of sex, for the same reason I don’t get to tell you what you should have eaten for breakfast this morning.
A modicum of context is obviously lacking here.
“Decency” seems to be your banner to justify criminalizing the factually true free choice of the women that make money out of porn (no, you cannot deny this reality…) and screaming that the only porn that exists involves the abuses you are screaming about. Reality disqualifies your stance. And no, you don’t get to tell anyone what they should like in terms of sex, for the same reason I don’t get to tell you what you should have eaten for breakfast this morning.
They are Stupid. They don’t get to marry classy rich men do they. Or even vile gangster types. Theyre not even liberated,powerful and in control as they like to fantasise. They are the stage acts who have to cajole and persuade the money out of the pockets and wallets. So they’re not in charge.
I am sure these women have an opinion about you too. At least as valid as yours about them.
I am sure these women have an opinion about you too. At least as valid as yours about them.
A modicum of decency is obviously lacking here. There is only one solution for certain types of men who will have you believe that Pornhub is just a platform where pretty “girls” (some are 40!) willingly open their legs to make ends meet or buy the next Gucci bag, whilst denying (and assuaging their guilty consciences?!) the horrific reality of violence and abuse of women and children (“small” detail…) in porn: a shotgun to the crotch. Then force them to read “Pornland” by Gail Dines.
They are Stupid. They don’t get to marry classy rich men do they. Or even vile gangster types. Theyre not even liberated,powerful and in control as they like to fantasise. They are the stage acts who have to cajole and persuade the money out of the pockets and wallets. So they’re not in charge.
A modicum of research into Pornhub, reveals the following:
The girls featured are more than stunningly attractive, and one assumes capable of attracting any number of rich partners who would ensure that they did not have to work in porn.
The most watched are 40 yrs old +.
The most popular have their own web sites, and social media, and their own publicised ” media identity”.
It is manifestly ludicrous to suggest that these women are in any way co-erced into their choice of work, and many of them are actually married.
This is not merely opinion but statistical fact.
The emphasis on “nuance” in this context is nothing more than a variation on the principle that as long as you control the agenda and can invigilate the debate, the illusion of diversity of opinion and tolerance of differing views can be maintained. It is surely obvious that it is equally possible to supervise a debate according to the principles of nuance and come to the opposite conclusion, because in both cases it is admitted that we already know the conclusions we want to come to.
It’s also amusing that Progressives seem to have a use for nuance when it suits them, of course. Most of the time they win their arguments – or more accurately close them down without fighting them at all – by eradicating nuance and context from their opponents’ views.
But who are “progressives”? Don’t we need to have a definitiion otherwise it just seems like a put-down label.
Perhaps, but since the article itself takes the definition as read, I’m going with it.
Perhaps, but since the article itself takes the definition as read, I’m going with it.
But who are “progressives”? Don’t we need to have a definitiion otherwise it just seems like a put-down label.
The emphasis on “nuance” in this context is nothing more than a variation on the principle that as long as you control the agenda and can invigilate the debate, the illusion of diversity of opinion and tolerance of differing views can be maintained. It is surely obvious that it is equally possible to supervise a debate according to the principles of nuance and come to the opposite conclusion, because in both cases it is admitted that we already know the conclusions we want to come to.
It’s also amusing that Progressives seem to have a use for nuance when it suits them, of course. Most of the time they win their arguments – or more accurately close them down without fighting them at all – by eradicating nuance and context from their opponents’ views.
Boxing gloves are the answer, as Nanny might have said… and if one’s sight is impaired to the extent that one cannot tie the wretched glove laces… the the priest in the confessional was spot on….
Boxing gloves are the answer, as Nanny might have said… and if one’s sight is impaired to the extent that one cannot tie the wretched glove laces… the the priest in the confessional was spot on….
‘Progressives’ don’t DO nuance!
And while I’m at it, I’m starting to find the word ‘progressives’ (and the people it describes) one of the most hateful in the English language… Except that the word ‘hateful’ has been appropriated too and no longer means anything except the screeching of narcissists.
‘Progressives’ don’t DO nuance!
And while I’m at it, I’m starting to find the word ‘progressives’ (and the people it describes) one of the most hateful in the English language… Except that the word ‘hateful’ has been appropriated too and no longer means anything except the screeching of narcissists.
It would be interesting to hear peoples definition of ‘ porn’?… is it just films of what people attracted to each other, or wish to procreate do?… what we all do?… having sex?…. Clearly in some instances it is manifestly more than the aforementioned ‘ mainstream’ and so therefore one label does not fit all?
Erotica is not porn: erotica is two adults engaging in mutual sexual pleasure.
Porn includes degradation and violence.
I have no issue with erotica made under highly regulated circumstances (in which the “performers” are willing and well protected) but porn is far more prevalent and profitable.
Porn conflates violence with sex.
I don’t think it should be banned, but I do think it should be heavily stigmatized.
I’ve always figured “erotica” is a broad category – anything that generally turns most people on sexually. “Pornography” is a subset – typically graphic imagery with explicit genitalia, engaged in visible sexual acts. To first order.
“Porn includes degradation and violence.”
Not necessarily. Mostly not, in fact.
“Erotica is not porn: erotica is two adults engaging in mutual sexual pleasure.
Porn includes degradation and violence”
Penny, you are not the owner of the dictionary here. You do not define stuff as the above. This is no more than your opinion and (ab)use of labels to push your vision of reality as the only one. People will keep doing what they want to do – which by the way does not include any of the abuses you keep insisting that are inevitable – and there is nothing you can do about that.
One man’s erotica is another man’s porn.
Are you suggesting that all content that does not contain violence or degradation is erotica?
And what exactly do you consider ‘degradation’ or ‘violence’? We both know it when we see it, of course, but do you think we see it exactly the same way? And even if we did, does everyone? Should they?
And what about erotica (content that does not contain any visible violence or degradation) which was made within a context which was filled by abuse we cannot see or sense?
I don’t disagree with the points you make, but I think they well illustrate the vagueness and uncertainty associated with any and every categorization system we care to create that could be used to separate the erotic from the pornographic.
I suspect the difference we’re trying to capture is simply one of taste & personal preference…and ultimately unqualifiable.
I’ve always figured “erotica” is a broad category – anything that generally turns most people on sexually. “Pornography” is a subset – typically graphic imagery with explicit genitalia, engaged in visible sexual acts. To first order.
“Porn includes degradation and violence.”
Not necessarily. Mostly not, in fact.
“Erotica is not porn: erotica is two adults engaging in mutual sexual pleasure.
Porn includes degradation and violence”
Penny, you are not the owner of the dictionary here. You do not define stuff as the above. This is no more than your opinion and (ab)use of labels to push your vision of reality as the only one. People will keep doing what they want to do – which by the way does not include any of the abuses you keep insisting that are inevitable – and there is nothing you can do about that.
One man’s erotica is another man’s porn.
Are you suggesting that all content that does not contain violence or degradation is erotica?
And what exactly do you consider ‘degradation’ or ‘violence’? We both know it when we see it, of course, but do you think we see it exactly the same way? And even if we did, does everyone? Should they?
And what about erotica (content that does not contain any visible violence or degradation) which was made within a context which was filled by abuse we cannot see or sense?
I don’t disagree with the points you make, but I think they well illustrate the vagueness and uncertainty associated with any and every categorization system we care to create that could be used to separate the erotic from the pornographic.
I suspect the difference we’re trying to capture is simply one of taste & personal preference…and ultimately unqualifiable.
Erotica is not porn: erotica is two adults engaging in mutual sexual pleasure.
Porn includes degradation and violence.
I have no issue with erotica made under highly regulated circumstances (in which the “performers” are willing and well protected) but porn is far more prevalent and profitable.
Porn conflates violence with sex.
I don’t think it should be banned, but I do think it should be heavily stigmatized.
It would be interesting to hear peoples definition of ‘ porn’?… is it just films of what people attracted to each other, or wish to procreate do?… what we all do?… having sex?…. Clearly in some instances it is manifestly more than the aforementioned ‘ mainstream’ and so therefore one label does not fit all?
Another way to answer the question posed in the title would be, Because most of them are atheists, who are largely untethered to concrete moral standards and who explicitly reject normative behaviors associated with Christian beliefs.
What nonsense. There are legions if religious porn consumers. (I am not one)
Ha Ha. Your comment reminds me of a book I read by a Bible Belt fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor. It was horrible ,it was by chance I came across it. But it was also horribly hilarious. I had to read it to the end. God had given this good man the gift to see in an aura around people who was secretly addicted to pornography. The trouble was all of his flock were,everyone of his faithful worshippers had the tell tale aura only visible to him around them. The seventeen year old boy who ran the youth group was addicted to pornography but so was the sweet old lady spinster auntie at the back with the other old ladies,a right naughty bunch the preacher could see! That book was both horrific and funny.
Ha Ha. Your comment reminds me of a book I read by a Bible Belt fundamentalist Evangelical Christian Pastor. It was horrible ,it was by chance I came across it. But it was also horribly hilarious. I had to read it to the end. God had given this good man the gift to see in an aura around people who was secretly addicted to pornography. The trouble was all of his flock were,everyone of his faithful worshippers had the tell tale aura only visible to him around them. The seventeen year old boy who ran the youth group was addicted to pornography but so was the sweet old lady spinster auntie at the back with the other old ladies,a right naughty bunch the preacher could see! That book was both horrific and funny.
Priests have Christian beliefs, and a good few of them have been found to have extremely immoral standards when it comes to their sexual activities
But how can their activities be “immoral” if they are doing what “you” do but it’s ok,acceptable and perfectly reasonable when “you ” do it. I don’t mean you the commenter I mean someone who say has had an affair when married but goes off on ” how dare he have a mistress etc I expect high standards from everyone who is not me”.
I’ve never touched up the altar boys
I’ve never touched up the altar boys
But how can their activities be “immoral” if they are doing what “you” do but it’s ok,acceptable and perfectly reasonable when “you ” do it. I don’t mean you the commenter I mean someone who say has had an affair when married but goes off on ” how dare he have a mistress etc I expect high standards from everyone who is not me”.
Oh good grief!! Where to begin. Surely you know about pedaphile priests and other cult leaders abusing their “flock, or conservative polititions who zealously condemn pedaphiles, but turn out to be projecting their desires onto others and then comdeming them. Either you know about this or need to get educated.
You are correct. Christianity has always been a path for flawed people trying to become less flawed – and frequently failing. Christ said “It’s not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.”
Christian leaders can, unless they are very careful (and sometimes even if they are) fall into both the errors you have described.
The first is to set themselves up as models of upright perfection. That is foolish. Christianity is nothing to do with people pretending they are perfect. That never ends well: hypocrisy stalks the proud: in particular, greed and sex can make idiots of all of us, especially people who set themselves up as examples of perfection!
The second is to become overly fond of haranguing others for their flaws, rather than standing alongside them in humility. This sows hatred and division – and creates a widespread impression of Christian leaders as holier-than-thou, hyper-critical, intolerant, self-righteous bigots.
Unfortunately this impression is sometimes correct. Prominent Christian leaders can sometimes behave like little tin gods. However, such behaviour is completely at odds with Christ’s actual teachings. It speaks volumes that the only people who attracted Christ’s consistent opprobrium were those who used their religious prestige to condemn and exploit others. But for people who understood and acknowledged their imperfections, he showed kindness and understanding.
So we shouldn’t be surprised when flawed Christian leaders demonstrate their flawed nature. They should never have portrayed themselves as moral examples in the first place. Pride comes before a fall.
Neither should we confuse their sometimes dreadful behaviour with the behaviour and teaching of Christ. That would be like criticising a doctor because his or her patients happened to be suffering from serious illnesses.
You are correct. Christianity has always been a path for flawed people trying to become less flawed – and frequently failing. Christ said “It’s not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.”
Christian leaders can, unless they are very careful (and sometimes even if they are) fall into both the errors you have described.
The first is to set themselves up as models of upright perfection. That is foolish. Christianity is nothing to do with people pretending they are perfect. That never ends well: hypocrisy stalks the proud: in particular, greed and sex can make idiots of all of us, especially people who set themselves up as examples of perfection!
The second is to become overly fond of haranguing others for their flaws, rather than standing alongside them in humility. This sows hatred and division – and creates a widespread impression of Christian leaders as holier-than-thou, hyper-critical, intolerant, self-righteous bigots.
Unfortunately this impression is sometimes correct. Prominent Christian leaders can sometimes behave like little tin gods. However, such behaviour is completely at odds with Christ’s actual teachings. It speaks volumes that the only people who attracted Christ’s consistent opprobrium were those who used their religious prestige to condemn and exploit others. But for people who understood and acknowledged their imperfections, he showed kindness and understanding.
So we shouldn’t be surprised when flawed Christian leaders demonstrate their flawed nature. They should never have portrayed themselves as moral examples in the first place. Pride comes before a fall.
Neither should we confuse their sometimes dreadful behaviour with the behaviour and teaching of Christ. That would be like criticising a doctor because his or her patients happened to be suffering from serious illnesses.
What nonsense. There are legions if religious porn consumers. (I am not one)
Priests have Christian beliefs, and a good few of them have been found to have extremely immoral standards when it comes to their sexual activities
Oh good grief!! Where to begin. Surely you know about pedaphile priests and other cult leaders abusing their “flock, or conservative polititions who zealously condemn pedaphiles, but turn out to be projecting their desires onto others and then comdeming them. Either you know about this or need to get educated.
Another way to answer the question posed in the title would be, Because most of them are atheists, who are largely untethered to concrete moral standards and who explicitly reject normative behaviors associated with Christian beliefs.
A most instructive essay.
A most instructive essay.
Easy. Porn is the graphic and aural presentation of sex, something which A LOT of people want. We are living in an age where, thanks to the sexual revolution, feminism and technology, porn is preferable for many men as women are dating upwards, leaving twice as many men reporting no sex activity as women. It requires zero effort and gives instant access to female nudity.
I think a lot of “political”, online men are pretty stunted socially and lack charisma, and vent about “tha Tohrees” and the “Ennay Chess”.
Men have hands. Use them.
If masturbation was 100% satisfactory, the human race would have died out years ago
How do men watching porn contribute to furthering the human race???
How do men watching porn contribute to furthering the human race???
Er, okay. I could type more posts with them, I guess.
If masturbation was 100% satisfactory, the human race would have died out years ago
Er, okay. I could type more posts with them, I guess.
Men have hands. Use them.
Easy. Porn is the graphic and aural presentation of sex, something which A LOT of people want. We are living in an age where, thanks to the sexual revolution, feminism and technology, porn is preferable for many men as women are dating upwards, leaving twice as many men reporting no sex activity as women. It requires zero effort and gives instant access to female nudity.
I think a lot of “political”, online men are pretty stunted socially and lack charisma, and vent about “tha Tohrees” and the “Ennay Chess”.
I am very surprised and disappointed that any article in UnHerd of all places would decry nuance as a concept.
Still I generally agree that harsh violent degrading porn is what it is and should be called out plainly as such…
I am very surprised and disappointed that any article in UnHerd of all places would decry nuance as a concept.
Still I generally agree that harsh violent degrading porn is what it is and should be called out plainly as such…
Does this article reduce nuance, complexity? In projecting the theme of progressive vs conservative (and assuming the former are pro-grossive) – even more layers complexity and possibilities slathered on. All the while a a relatively straightforward essential matter is overlooked – the measurement of harm coming from porn. How is this to be done; do we know the results, is there consensus; and if so how widely understood is it? It seems to me that this is the crux of the matter informing our position on porn ethics, irregardless of political position. Does anyone really enjoy being slapped/choked – or is a side-effect of abuse, like enjoying heroine? I don’t know – do you? The author has also overlooked the issue of homosexual sex as the main source of ethical confusion – in the sense that it is the most powerful, salient and widespread experience of sexual disgust/ethics – i.e. it is normative for people to regard the sexual preferences of the ‘other side’ as a bit gross (viscerally, emotionally, at least) – whilst simultaneously accepting that it is ok, good even, a simple act of love, essentially similar to their own preferences.
Choking people for sexual pleasure is sick. Watching people being anally raped for pleasure is sick. Watching simulated child rape is sick. BDSM is sick. Furry porn is sick.
All of the above is sick and should be discouraged rather than encouraged.
Don’t @ me.
Screaming to impose your opinion on other people is sick too. You will never be entitled to have anything beyond a negative opinion on this matter. You don’t get to call this shot. Your story is not everybody else’s – now deal with it and let other people have their discussions in peace.
Screaming to impose your opinion on other people is sick too. You will never be entitled to have anything beyond a negative opinion on this matter. You don’t get to call this shot. Your story is not everybody else’s – now deal with it and let other people have their discussions in peace.
There does seem to have been a tendency for porn to become more extreme. I’m a gay man and not particularly into watching porn, but a sex friend showed me some recently (no point in not being honest) involving a few young good looking men. It was actually about as “vanilla” as you can get, so there must still be a market for that
Choking people for sexual pleasure is sick. Watching people being anally raped for pleasure is sick. Watching simulated child rape is sick. BDSM is sick. Furry porn is sick.
All of the above is sick and should be discouraged rather than encouraged.
Don’t @ me.
There does seem to have been a tendency for porn to become more extreme. I’m a gay man and not particularly into watching porn, but a sex friend showed me some recently (no point in not being honest) involving a few young good looking men. It was actually about as “vanilla” as you can get, so there must still be a market for that
Does this article reduce nuance, complexity? In projecting the theme of progressive vs conservative (and assuming the former are pro-grossive) – even more layers complexity and possibilities slathered on. All the while a a relatively straightforward essential matter is overlooked – the measurement of harm coming from porn. How is this to be done; do we know the results, is there consensus; and if so how widely understood is it? It seems to me that this is the crux of the matter informing our position on porn ethics, irregardless of political position. Does anyone really enjoy being slapped/choked – or is a side-effect of abuse, like enjoying heroine? I don’t know – do you? The author has also overlooked the issue of homosexual sex as the main source of ethical confusion – in the sense that it is the most powerful, salient and widespread experience of sexual disgust/ethics – i.e. it is normative for people to regard the sexual preferences of the ‘other side’ as a bit gross (viscerally, emotionally, at least) – whilst simultaneously accepting that it is ok, good even, a simple act of love, essentially similar to their own preferences.
.
Yabbut…
Why does anyone watch porn?
And what is porn anyway?
We all know it when we see it (as per Justice Potter Stewart)…and lots of us believe that our ‘knowing’ is a kind of universal knowing and therefore should be widely shared, and perhaps even mandated. (Perhaps Mr. Maier feels the same?)… But should it? Are we that enduringly sure that our understanding (of Porn) is THE understanding?
Certainly we can all empathize with the gut-churning, skin-crawling sensation which accompanies an encounter with something (anything) that we feel, strongly & intuitively, is beyond the pale. But are we really so sure that everyone feels the same? Are we so sure they should feel the same? Should they be compelled to feel the same?
Was it right & good when Ulysses was banned? Lolita? Lord of the Flies? Catcher in the Rye? What about Lady Chatterley’s Lover? Tropic of Cancer? et al. What about Deep Throat? Behind the Green Door? In the Realm of the Senses? What about Michelangelo’s David? Andy Warhol…Robert Mapplethorpe?
Probably more importantly, do we prefer a world in which every media-encounter has been pre-chewed to ensure that ‘porn’ (whatever it is) doesn’t make its way to our ‘tender, eggshell minds’? Do we, as adults, want to be protected from the ugly, the grotesque, the violent, and cruel, the obscene, the rude, the vulgar, and the explicit?
Yes, of course, I totally agree — we, each of us, need to be alert to our own visceral reactions. It seems insane to say, first, that ‘porn makes me queasy’ …but then declare one’s self “troubled… because I don’t what to be a prude and I want to be sex positive.” I’m queasy, but by God I’m doing it anyway because it’s cool to be Progressively sex positive even if it makes me vomit!!?? That’s just crazy.
But it seems the author conflates porn and our personal interaction with porn with our real-life interaction with the Other (though truthfully neither sits in any kind of ‘splendid isolation’).
He tells us, “The fantasy of a sexual realm that can float untethered from the rest of ethical life and human judgment is just that, a fantasy”. But is that really true?.
In fact our own internal lives do float — more or less — untethered from our real lives. Our dreams, our fantasies, our innermost debates and back&forths, …who we are to ourselves…all that floats, disconnected from our ‘real-life’ interactions at home, at work, on the street, sitting in the stands watching a game, going to Starbucks.
None of us leaps across the sidewalk to embrace the ‘pretty woman, walking down the street’…even though we just envisioned, with longing, exactly that. None of us (well hardly any of us) suddenly grab our boss by his ugly tie to declare, “You’re a big fat idiot and don’t know anything!” (even though we just imagined doing that as he asked us to put the new cover sheets on our TPS reports before they go out.)
Is our ‘floating imagination’ unethical or immoral? By making imaginary mad passionate love to that sweet young thing on the street (right there next to the bus stop, for goodness sake!) have we committed rape? Do we need to confess to the ‘lust in our hearts’?
Even if we find ourselves inspired to translate some portion of that imaginary to our real lives, with our real partners, is such a translation forbidden, or wrong if we both welcome it?
The truth is we all lead parallel lives, many parallel lives most probably. We are different people with our spouse, than with our children, than with our neighbors, than with our brothers, and they’re all different from who we are with our best friend for the last 50 years.
So where is porn in all of this?
It’s a part of those imaginary lives (as are countless other things). And being a part of that floating, parallel imagination, it informs and helps to shape (positively or negatively) some part of our real-world lives.
Porn/Erotica is created (by both genius & idiot) to feed our sexual appetites…to stir our sexual desires…to spark our sexual interests….and inspire our sexual actions. For some that may be a rapt consideration of Bernini’s “Ecstasy of St. Teresa”… for some watching Kim Novak dance in “Picnic”, or Sigourney Weaver in “Year of Living Dangerously”. Maybe it’s 1960’s era Playboys. Maybe it’s PornHub. Maybe it’s the home-movies made with our wives.
Maybe Porn is whatever we find to be repulsive, ugly, and mechanistic…maybe it’s the “degrading sexual practices (whatever they are) noted by the author…maybe it’s the violent & coercive (would that be real? Or simulated?)? And maybe everything else that feeds those same sexual appetites is art? Who knows. In any case, only a fool would believe that pornography or artistic erotica (depending upon our own individual perspectives) is somehow forcing us to “uncritically embrace every sexual impulse”. And only a fool would believe that our own rejection of some pornographic “X” means that “X” should be equally rejected by all.
As long as I’m the one making the call – because, indeed, I do ‘know it when I see it’ – I’m fine. The question would be, are you equally fine with me (or anyone else, for that matter) determining what is you can see?
And yet another question might be: why is my appetite, your appetite, their appetite … and how that appetite is expressed ‘behind closed doors’ anyone else’s business but our own?
Good article. I suppose the Catholic Church was right all along.
You’ve drawn the wrong conclusion.
Apart from the very dubious personal practices of those who “call the shots” in Catholicism, the primary function in church morality was to control the sexuality of women; similarly, with Islam. All of this, of course, disguised under layers of doctrine designed for that specific purpose.
The porn industry is another expression of male dominance. Even where a dominatrix is involved, the essence of the interaction is that the male is seeking to alleviate his otherwise controlling tendencies.
The Catholic Church, along with other religions, have more in common with the porn industry than you might imagine.
‘the primary function in church morality was to control the sexuality of women’. I think it would be fairer to say that it’s an attempt (however inconsistently applied or achieved) to control sexuality full stop. Catholic morality requires unmarried men to remain chaste, and married men to be faithful to their spouse. Surely that’s an attempt to control their sexuality too?
I thought it was more the church being pragmatic. With no welfare system back in the day, the church generally got lumbered helping young abandoned unwed mothers, so in order to avoid having to look after them and their babies they tried to discourage it from happening in the first place by casting it as sinful and morally dubious
No you’re way off there, Billy Bob. You forget the Catholic church is against both birth control and abortion because they want more catholics.
There’s probably an element of that now I’ll agree, but I was referring more to the Victorian age backwards
There’s probably an element of that now I’ll agree, but I was referring more to the Victorian age backwards
No you’re way off there, Billy Bob. You forget the Catholic church is against both birth control and abortion because they want more catholics.
Good point.
I thought it was more the church being pragmatic. With no welfare system back in the day, the church generally got lumbered helping young abandoned unwed mothers, so in order to avoid having to look after them and their babies they tried to discourage it from happening in the first place by casting it as sinful and morally dubious
Good point.
Given the topic of the article I was primarily refering to the churches teaching on masterbation. My conclusion is that we wouldn’t have such a massive porn problem if everyone followed that teaching.
Your opinion on why they have that teaching and others on sexuality is yours to have though it reads like a feminist conspiracy theory and I tend not to agree.
Masturbation!
Masturbation!
Brilliant, very well said, Steve. Thank you for a succinct, ariculate comment.
Celibacy was only introducd in about 1050- AD and was largely ignored in the Middle Ages. There was massive increase in wealth post 850 AD in Europe and married priests were passing Church land onto their children hence introduction of celibacy. Much of the Roman aristocracy are bastards of Cardinals and Popes.
‘the primary function in church morality was to control the sexuality of women’. I think it would be fairer to say that it’s an attempt (however inconsistently applied or achieved) to control sexuality full stop. Catholic morality requires unmarried men to remain chaste, and married men to be faithful to their spouse. Surely that’s an attempt to control their sexuality too?
Given the topic of the article I was primarily refering to the churches teaching on masterbation. My conclusion is that we wouldn’t have such a massive porn problem if everyone followed that teaching.
Your opinion on why they have that teaching and others on sexuality is yours to have though it reads like a feminist conspiracy theory and I tend not to agree.
Brilliant, very well said, Steve. Thank you for a succinct, ariculate comment.
Celibacy was only introducd in about 1050- AD and was largely ignored in the Middle Ages. There was massive increase in wealth post 850 AD in Europe and married priests were passing Church land onto their children hence introduction of celibacy. Much of the Roman aristocracy are bastards of Cardinals and Popes.
Why the Catholic Church, and not other churches? I would argue the Catholic Church’s handling of its priests’ misconduct have severely damaged Christianity in the West.
I don’t really know a lot of other churches specific teaching to be honest but the Catholic Church generally gets called out for having strict rules on how to live life so I think it’s interesting to see that they were probably right on this one. I totally agree with your second point.
I don’t really know a lot of other churches specific teaching to be honest but the Catholic Church generally gets called out for having strict rules on how to live life so I think it’s interesting to see that they were probably right on this one. I totally agree with your second point.
Right about what? I wonder how many priests watch porn when they’re not molesting chidren.
But as long as they confess their sins then all is forgiven, no harm done apparently
Brilliant point!
But as long as they confess their sins then all is forgiven, no harm done apparently
Brilliant point!
You’ve drawn the wrong conclusion.
Apart from the very dubious personal practices of those who “call the shots” in Catholicism, the primary function in church morality was to control the sexuality of women; similarly, with Islam. All of this, of course, disguised under layers of doctrine designed for that specific purpose.
The porn industry is another expression of male dominance. Even where a dominatrix is involved, the essence of the interaction is that the male is seeking to alleviate his otherwise controlling tendencies.
The Catholic Church, along with other religions, have more in common with the porn industry than you might imagine.
Why the Catholic Church, and not other churches? I would argue the Catholic Church’s handling of its priests’ misconduct have severely damaged Christianity in the West.
Right about what? I wonder how many priests watch porn when they’re not molesting chidren.
Good article. I suppose the Catholic Church was right all along.
Porn. a oral history
This was an interesting title . I expected a review on the importance of blowjobs in the erotic cinematography, with a detailed analysis of body language wrote by a cunning linguist.
Instead, a compliation of interviews of people on wheether they assume their navigator’s history or not. What a long and boring read. As long and boring as this umpteenth article written by a puritan with an ill placed broom.
Stop masturbating to porn – you might be masturbating to actual rape. Just use your imagination if you need to get off.
Can’t beat (so to speak) imagination, but there lies the rub (so to speak) how many men have creative imaginations?
Can’t beat (so to speak) imagination, but there lies the rub (so to speak) how many men have creative imaginations?
Stop masturbating to porn – you might be masturbating to actual rape. Just use your imagination if you need to get off.
Porn. a oral history
This was an interesting title . I expected a review on the importance of blowjobs in the erotic cinematography, with a detailed analysis of body language wrote by a cunning linguist.
Instead, a compliation of interviews of people on wheether they assume their navigator’s history or not. What a long and boring read. As long and boring as this umpteenth article written by a puritan with an ill placed broom.
There was no ‘porn’ before Christianity reared its sexually neurotic head above the swamp.
The original (Greek) word merely means the ‘drawing of prostitutes’, an appreciation of beauty if you like.
It’s time we grew up!
Prostitute who were mostly slaves, compelled to service clients. The ancient Greeks also had a lovely tradition of gang raping actresses and other women who were vulnerable. Not to mention their penchant for buggering little boys.
The Classical World was a moral cesspool.
Prostitute who were mostly slaves, compelled to service clients. The ancient Greeks also had a lovely tradition of gang raping actresses and other women who were vulnerable. Not to mention their penchant for buggering little boys.
The Classical World was a moral cesspool.
There was no ‘porn’ before Christianity reared its sexually neurotic head above the swamp.
The original (Greek) word merely means the ‘drawing of prostitutes’, an appreciation of beauty if you like.
It’s time we grew up!
Do “Progressives watch porn” Is there any evidence for such a suggestion. It may have been the case back in the 1960s as I recall but I would say progressives are much more likely to be sensitive to the arguments about harm to women than conservatives
Yeah right.
Seriously? Was it the liberals/progressives fighting for decency standards in the media all these years and to drive porn theaters out of towns
to protect families and neighborhoods from the
filth? No, they were too busy shouting at the out of touch “prudes”.
I desperately wish that were true.
Huh? Where have you been…. The ‘progressives’ are at odds with women’s rights.
I’m getting paranoid, why when I gave an up vote to 16 red votes with a minus sign, (whatever that means) did it then go down to 15? Is anyone else confused?
-16 + 1 = -15
-16 + 1 = -15
Yeah right.
Seriously? Was it the liberals/progressives fighting for decency standards in the media all these years and to drive porn theaters out of towns
to protect families and neighborhoods from the
filth? No, they were too busy shouting at the out of touch “prudes”.
I desperately wish that were true.
Huh? Where have you been…. The ‘progressives’ are at odds with women’s rights.
I’m getting paranoid, why when I gave an up vote to 16 red votes with a minus sign, (whatever that means) did it then go down to 15? Is anyone else confused?
Do “Progressives watch porn” Is there any evidence for such a suggestion. It may have been the case back in the 1960s as I recall but I would say progressives are much more likely to be sensitive to the arguments about harm to women than conservatives