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How Russia and China overtook the West A new world order is slowly taking shape

The West is decoupling from the rest of the world (Sasha Mordovets/Getty Images)

The West is decoupling from the rest of the world (Sasha Mordovets/Getty Images)


March 20, 2023   6 mins

For the past year, Nato countries, led by the US, have strived to nudge the rest of the world into providing military aid for Ukraine and sanctioning Russia, in the hope of isolating the latter. They have, by and large, failed on both counts. Western officials might point out that 141 of 193 countries supported a recent UN resolution demanding Russia withdraw from Ukraine, but the 32 abstaining countries included China, India, Pakistan and South Africa — which alone account for around 40% of the global population.

Despite the West’s attempts to “globalise” the conflict, only 33 nations — representing just over one-eighth of the global population — have imposed sanctions on Russia and sent military aid to Ukraine: the UK, US, Canada, Australia, South Korea, Japan and the EU — in other words, those countries that are directly under the US sphere of influence, which in many cases involves a significant US military presence. The remaining nations, comprising close to 90% of the world’s population, have refused to follow suit. If anything, the war has actually strengthened Russian relations with a number of major non-Western countries, including China and India, and accelerated the rise of a new international order in which it is the West that looks increasingly isolated, not Russia.

Since the invasion, China has hugely increased its purchases of Russian oil, gas and coal, while exporting far more machinery, manufactured products and high-end electronics in the other direction; they have boosted their bilateral trade by more than 30%. The two countries have also committed to significant investment and infrastructure projects through the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the world’s largest regional grouping in terms of geographic scope and population, which also includes India, Pakistan, Iran and all the major Central Asian republics. Moreover, as a result of Western sanctions, they have been forced to rely on rouble-yuan trade instead of using the dollar, which has enhanced the yuan’s reserve currency status.

On last month’s anniversary of the Russian invasion, Wang Yi, Beijing’s most senior diplomat, said that China was committed to “strengthen[ing] and deepen[ing] the Sino-Russian friendship” and “promot[ing] mutually beneficial cooperation in all areas”. Even more significantly, the two countries have increasingly been speaking with one voice about the need for a more balanced international order, explicitly framing their collaboration as one aimed at weakening the West’s dominance in global affairs. China, in particular, has implicitly embraced Russia’s view, espoused by foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, that “this is not about Ukraine at all… It reflects the battle over what the world order will look like”. In this context, it should come as no surprise that Beijing and Moscow have maintained the steady pace of their joint military exercises, nor that Xi is due to meet Putin in Moscow today.

America’s increasingly aggressive posture towards China has only fuelled the perception, among Beijing’s elites, that they are united with Russia against the West in an existential fight for survival. Xi recently issued an unusually blunt rebuke of US policy, in which he accused Washington of being engaged in a campaign to suppress China: “Western countries — led by the US — have implemented all-round containment, encirclement and suppression against us, bringing unprecedentedly severe challenges to our country’s development,” he was quoted as saying by state media. This represents a significant departure from China’s traditionally measured approach. It followed the publication, by China’s foreign ministry, of an unusually critical document titled US Hegemony and Its Perils, which claimed that America has “acted… to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, pursue, maintain and abuse hegemony, advance subversion and infiltration, and willfully wage wars, bringing harm to the international community”.

The problem for the US, and for the West, is that this message is starting to resonate around the world. Many non-Westerners feel that the US is in no position to lecture other countries about the sanctity of sovereignty, territorial integrity, international law and the so-called rules-based order. They recognise that the US has violated these principles before — most recently with the disastrous invasions and bombing campaigns against Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria. This is why the West’s attempt to frame the conflict in Ukraine as a moral struggle of “good versus evil” elicits unease among many non-Westerners, especially in those countries that have been on the receiving end of Western colonial endeavours.

For instance, The Washington Post marked last month’s anniversary by publishing a series of interviews with people in South Africa, India and Kenya; it concluded that they hold “a deeply ambivalent view of the conflict, informed less by the question of whether Russia was wrong to invade than by current and historical grievances against the West”. It is one of several African countries that have refused to side with Kyiv.

For several countries, it’s not just that they’re unwilling to sacrifice their own interests for Ukraine; it’s partly about taking a stand against the West. As Clement Manyathela, a popular South African radio host, explained: “When America went into Iraq, when America went into Libya, they had their own justifications that we didn’t believe, and now they’re trying to turn the world against Russia…. I still don’t see any justification for invading a country, but we cannot be dictated to about the Russian moves on Ukraine. I honestly feel the US was trying to bully us.”

Perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised that South Africa is among those countries which have chosen to strengthen ties with Russia. During a visit by Lavrov in January, the South African foreign minister Naledi Pandor referred to the two nations as “friends” and hailed their “growing economic bilateral relationship”, along with their “political, economic, social, defence and security cooperation”. Most conspicuously, South Africa joined last month’s military exercises with Russia and China.

India has also openly defied the West on Ukraine. It recently announced that its trade with Russia had grown 400% since the invasion, mostly due to a 700% increase in its import of petroleum-related products — a result of its refusal to abide by the Western-imposed Russian oil price cap. Russia also remains India’s largest arms supplier. In an effort to justify these decisions, India’s government has assumed an explicit narrative about the historic significance of its break with Western foreign policy diktats. As Venkatesh Varma, India’s former ambassador to Russia, wrote last month: “In not accepting the Western framing of the Ukraine conflict… India stood its ground and that ground raised India’s global stature.”

How long will this last? Recent developments certainly aren’t tipping the global balance in favour of the West. On the one hand, it is becoming increasingly apparent that Nato’s strategy in Ukraine isn’t working: not only is Ukraine facing heavy losses, while the West unable to keep up with Ukrainian demands for ammunition and equipment, but the sanctions have hurt Western countries, as well as developing ones. On the other, the financial crisis triggered by the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank is yet another reminder of the intrinsic instability of the West’s hyper-financialised brand of capitalism.

Only last week, America’s global standing took another hit with the signing of a historic agreement between Iran and Saudi Arabia brokered by China (while, it should be noted, the Saudi foreign minister was in Moscow). As part of the deal, Iran has agreed to stop arming Houthis in Yemen, potentially paving the way to a resolution to the nine-year-long Yemeni war. Writing in Newsweek, David H. Rundell, a former chief of mission at the American Embassy in Saudi Arabia explained that the deal will be seen as “a watershed moment for Chinese influence in the Middle East”, while further eroding America’s already poor reputation in the region.

All these developments suggest a radical geopolitical realignment is underway which is hastening the demise of American global supremacy. This is confirmed in a recent global study carried out by the EU-funded European Council on Foreign Relations — tellingly titled “United West, divided from the rest”. It found that, while the US and Europe are growing closer, they are increasingly politically alienated from the rest of the world. The proxy war in Ukraine “marks both the consolidation of the West and the emergence of the long-heralded post-Western international order”, characterised by a strong desire for a more even distribution of global power among multiple countries — namely, multipolarity. It concludes that, even if Ukraine somehow managed to win the war, “it is highly unlikely” that a US-led liberal world order will be restored. Instead, “the West will have to live as one pole of a multipolar world”.

It confirmed the findings of a second study, carried out by the University of Cambridge’s Bennett Institute for Public Policy last October which was based on data from 137 countries that represent 97% of world population. While some upper-income countries in South America, the Asia-Pacific and Eastern Europe have become more pro-American, it concluded that “across a vast span of countries stretching from continental Eurasia to the north and west of Africa, we find the opposite —  societies that have moved closer to China and Russia over the course of the last decade”. For the first time, China and Russia are now narrowly ahead of the US in their popularity among developing countries — that is, among the overwhelming majority of the world’s population.

Today, as Xi and Putin sit down to discuss the future of Ukraine, the implication of this is clear. China and Russia are not decoupling from the West; rather, the West is decoupling from the rest of the world.


Thomas Fazi is an UnHerd columnist and translator. His latest book is The Covid Consensus, co-authored with Toby Green.

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Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

The author appears to be drawing some incredibly long bows here. Suggesting that because all those (largely poorer) countries haven’t joined in with the western sanctions means that they must therefore be aligned with Putin seems to be clutching at straws. Likewise that India is abandoning the west simply because they’ve taken advantage of buying cheap oil from Russia again seems far fetched.
He fails to mention Chinas demographic time bomb due to its one child policy, whereby it’s getting old before it’s hard chance to get rich. There’s no mention of Chinas 20%+ youth unemployment or it’s colossal asset bubble. Most of Chinas high value trade is still with western nations. Despite the tension it isn’t going to give that up and replace it with the Russians or the South Africans, a basket case of a country that can barely feed its population or keep the lights on.
As has been mentioned, whilst the countries sanctioning Putin make up a a fraction of the world’s population, they’re a majority of the worlds economy which is much more important in the context of the article than sheer numbers.
All in all the article seems to have cherry picked a few stats in order to fit a predetermined narrative rather than being an objective look at the geopolitical situation arising from the conflict

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

That’s what he does, I’m afraid, yet for some reason he gets a lot of column inches on this website.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

You get this on UnHerd about 5 times a weeks. The authors look at some stats, copy a couple of graphs and, ‘Bob’s your Aunty,’ an article appears.
(This particular Bob sees their self more as a woman.)

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Wheatley
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Then why would you read the stories and comment? It seems like a waste of your time if you think they’re rubbish.There’s plenty of other publications.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Because you have to read something to know whether it’s worth reading or not. If you give up reading you give up life.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

ok, maybe you have to read some of but why waste your precious time responding if it isn’t worthy in the first place. Nah, doesn’t wash.. sounds more like you’re in denial!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

ok, maybe you have to read some of but why waste your precious time responding if it isn’t worthy in the first place. Nah, doesn’t wash.. sounds more like you’re in denial!

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

there are, not there’s iz badd ingishh

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Because you have to read something to know whether it’s worth reading or not. If you give up reading you give up life.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

there are, not there’s iz badd ingishh

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Then why would you read the stories and comment? It seems like a waste of your time if you think they’re rubbish.There’s plenty of other publications.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

And that, it would seem, is his real objective. But then, everybody has to eat.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

You get this on UnHerd about 5 times a weeks. The authors look at some stats, copy a couple of graphs and, ‘Bob’s your Aunty,’ an article appears.
(This particular Bob sees their self more as a woman.)

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Wheatley
Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben Jones

And that, it would seem, is his real objective. But then, everybody has to eat.

Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The countries sanctioning are now barely a majority of the global economy in dollar terms, and in purchasing parity terms they are a minority. They are, collectively, growing far, far more slowly than the rest. And they are, collectively, running a huge current account deficit that is draining away their global investment position from which their economic clout comes.

The US and UK depend on selling their assets to fund consumption. They are literally selling their futures to pay for stuff today. Short of capital to fix problems, they are also now well down the road of repeatedly relying on the monetising of debt to finance balance sheet problems. This is end of empires type desperation.

This is a major reversal of economic strength in just 30 years, and one that has accelerated in the last decade. It looks exactly like the decline of Britain did and as we know Britain’s global power ebbed away slowly, then suddenly almost immediately after WW2.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nell Clover
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

I’m not saying that the west doesn’t have its own problems to deal with, but I’m still of the opinion that they pale in comparison to those facing the likes of China and Russia. There’s no doubt that the western share of the economy will diminish as the Asian nations especially become more established, but I can’t see any realistic scenario whereby China or Russia will become dominant powers

Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It’s not so much China and Russia will become stronger, its that we become far, far weaker. They can dominate if we collapse. What stops us becoming basket cases like South Africa?

The USA and its client states are economically weakening and wasting their remaining strategic power by not recognising their weakness, let alone trying to reverse that weakness. Using the international dollar system as a weapon was really stupid and only hastened the already slow decline of the dollar. One of just many really poor decisions that point to a bleak future for everyone. Can you think of any good trends in the West today?

Demographics is a small problem relative to our wilful destruction from within and the increasingly parastic relationship between the state and vested interests.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

I totally agree with your analysis here. At a micro level, in a week when a former US President dreaming of a comeback may be indicted for paying off a porn star, and a former UK Prime Minister dreaming of a comeback is defending himself from a charge of lying to Parliament about parties it’s not entirely surprising that non aligned nations don’t take us entirely seriously any more. It’s also worth noting that the likeliest Republican challengers in 2024 are busily signalling a complete reversal on Ukraine if elected, so why commit now to a policy, in opposition to China and Russia, that may completely change.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

I would vote for Lady Stormington Daniels every time….

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  John Murray

I would vote for Lady Stormington Daniels every time….

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Democracy is what stops the West becoming basket cases.

Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

“Democracy” just means rule by the deep state.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

stupid nonsense.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

We don’t have real democracy. We vote for parties and the parties tell us to shut up. This is democracy from De Toqueville’s theory, not real democracy.

Kate Martin
Kate Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Actually, the reason the parties tell us to shut up is because they can. A very small number of people run the parties while the rest of the partisans phone it in rather than participate. I learned this over the last 10 years. Have you ever been to a legislative district meeting? Have you ever been elected to be a Precinct Committee Officer for your neighborhood? These are the smallest grain of party participation in our system and people generally stopped participating. In my 36th legislative district in Washington State (this district is in Seattle) most of the elected positions go unfilled. Nobody runs. Both parties suffer this. The work gets done by the folks who show up and in this case, they’ve driven the parties to extremes. Sensible moderates could fix this, but they stopped participating. What could go wrong? Well, just look around.

Kate Martin
Kate Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Actually, the reason the parties tell us to shut up is because they can. A very small number of people run the parties while the rest of the partisans phone it in rather than participate. I learned this over the last 10 years. Have you ever been to a legislative district meeting? Have you ever been elected to be a Precinct Committee Officer for your neighborhood? These are the smallest grain of party participation in our system and people generally stopped participating. In my 36th legislative district in Washington State (this district is in Seattle) most of the elected positions go unfilled. Nobody runs. Both parties suffer this. The work gets done by the folks who show up and in this case, they’ve driven the parties to extremes. Sensible moderates could fix this, but they stopped participating. What could go wrong? Well, just look around.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

stupid nonsense.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

We don’t have real democracy. We vote for parties and the parties tell us to shut up. This is democracy from De Toqueville’s theory, not real democracy.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

You’re right, but democracy is now dead in all but superficial appearance and has been for a long time.. the oligarch puppet masters have been in control for a long time.

Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

“Democracy” just means rule by the deep state.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

You’re right, but democracy is now dead in all but superficial appearance and has been for a long time.. the oligarch puppet masters have been in control for a long time.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Spot on. All the signs are there, plain to be seen by all except the willfully blind.

John Murray
John Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

I totally agree with your analysis here. At a micro level, in a week when a former US President dreaming of a comeback may be indicted for paying off a porn star, and a former UK Prime Minister dreaming of a comeback is defending himself from a charge of lying to Parliament about parties it’s not entirely surprising that non aligned nations don’t take us entirely seriously any more. It’s also worth noting that the likeliest Republican challengers in 2024 are busily signalling a complete reversal on Ukraine if elected, so why commit now to a policy, in opposition to China and Russia, that may completely change.

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Democracy is what stops the West becoming basket cases.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Spot on. All the signs are there, plain to be seen by all except the willfully blind.

Malvin Marombedza
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The erosion of freedoms in the West, in my opinion, is a far greater problem than any that the Russians and Chinese face.

Steve Jerome
Steve Jerome
1 year ago

That would be because we still have some whilst the denizens of those two tyrannies have virtually none to lose

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jerome

A gross exaggeration.. there is little to chose these days..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jerome

A gross exaggeration.. there is little to chose these days..

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

That’s ridiculous, since Russian and Chinese freedoms aren’t just eroded, they’re nonexistent.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Have you ever spent time in these countries? Or are you believing what you have been conditioned to believe?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Do I really need to spend time in Putin’s Russia or Xi’s China to know that these are dictatorships with severely limited personal freedoms, esp. compared to those we have in the West? Are you really so deluded and brainwashed?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Eh, you do! You’ll be amazed if you do! I absolutly guarantee it!

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

No, I think YOU do.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

No, I think YOU do.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Amazing how many brainwashed and ignorant people are reading this silly article and support Putin and Xi. Quite the eye-opener.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Eh, you do! You’ll be amazed if you do! I absolutly guarantee it!

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Amazing how many brainwashed and ignorant people are reading this silly article and support Putin and Xi. Quite the eye-opener.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I have, and I certainly saw signs of disgruntlement with the Chinese govt even years ago.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Wow, disgruntlement with the government.. let’s hope we never see that is the West! ha ha ha ..you have got to be kidding!

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You’re an ignorant moron. There’s really no other conclusion.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You’re an ignorant moron. There’s really no other conclusion.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Wow, disgruntlement with the government.. let’s hope we never see that is the West! ha ha ha ..you have got to be kidding!

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I have spent 10 years in Russia and support Harry’s statement, discounted for hyperbole.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I have spent 6 months living in Moscow…and unfreedom is built into the DNA

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Do I really need to spend time in Putin’s Russia or Xi’s China to know that these are dictatorships with severely limited personal freedoms, esp. compared to those we have in the West? Are you really so deluded and brainwashed?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I have, and I certainly saw signs of disgruntlement with the Chinese govt even years ago.

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I have spent 10 years in Russia and support Harry’s statement, discounted for hyperbole.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I have spent 6 months living in Moscow…and unfreedom is built into the DNA

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Rubbish.. if that were the case Putin and Xi would be very unpopular. The opposite is the case..

Fiona Thurston
Fiona Thurston
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It means nothing to say that Putin and Xi are “popular”. Hitler was popular too, wasn’t he? The Russians culturally like strong leaders, and we like beating our leaders up and getting rid of them when they fail. The underated beauty of our system is that we can get rid of them, or they decide to go themselves when it all gets too much. Putin and Xi don’t have that option because the sheer brutality of their political cultures.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You make Dumb and Dumber sound like Einstein.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

They don’t have to be popular, they just have to be powerful

James Jenkin
James Jenkin
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

True! Their election landslides were incredible

Fiona Thurston
Fiona Thurston
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It means nothing to say that Putin and Xi are “popular”. Hitler was popular too, wasn’t he? The Russians culturally like strong leaders, and we like beating our leaders up and getting rid of them when they fail. The underated beauty of our system is that we can get rid of them, or they decide to go themselves when it all gets too much. Putin and Xi don’t have that option because the sheer brutality of their political cultures.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

You make Dumb and Dumber sound like Einstein.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

They don’t have to be popular, they just have to be powerful

James Jenkin
James Jenkin
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

True! Their election landslides were incredible

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Have you ever spent time in these countries? Or are you believing what you have been conditioned to believe?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Rubbish.. if that were the case Putin and Xi would be very unpopular. The opposite is the case..

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Absolutely. But we are brainwashed :
America = good, China = bad, Russia = bad, etc

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

El stupido.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

..run out of arguments have you?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It’s pointless when the argument is with ignorant morons.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

It’s pointless when the argument is with ignorant morons.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

..run out of arguments have you?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

El stupido.

David Iain Craig
David Iain Craig
1 year ago

Perhaps because tyhey have very limited freedoms to erode ?

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago

“Greater”? By what metric? Maybe eroding faster? I would tend to say that freedom is equally important everywhere, but some places serve as examples, “A City upon a Hill”. Also, if the global cop gets corrupted, there’s no one able to control him. So I could argue for your point, but it’s pretty silly in the context of the immediate threat of the Russo-Ukraine war.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Russians and Chinese live under brutal dictatorships. If you think the minor (relative to dictatorship) erosions to our freedoms are a bigger problem, it can only be because you are ignorant of life under dictatorship. Just ask any refugee from China or the former Eastern bloc. They’ll educate you.

Malvin Marombedza
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

I grew up in Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe’s rule. There is nothing a person in your shoes can tell me about oppression.

Malvin Marombedza
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

I grew up in Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe’s rule. There is nothing a person in your shoes can tell me about oppression.

Steve Jerome
Steve Jerome
1 year ago

That would be because we still have some whilst the denizens of those two tyrannies have virtually none to lose

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

That’s ridiculous, since Russian and Chinese freedoms aren’t just eroded, they’re nonexistent.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

Absolutely. But we are brainwashed :
America = good, China = bad, Russia = bad, etc

David Iain Craig
David Iain Craig
1 year ago

Perhaps because tyhey have very limited freedoms to erode ?

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago

“Greater”? By what metric? Maybe eroding faster? I would tend to say that freedom is equally important everywhere, but some places serve as examples, “A City upon a Hill”. Also, if the global cop gets corrupted, there’s no one able to control him. So I could argue for your point, but it’s pretty silly in the context of the immediate threat of the Russo-Ukraine war.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Russians and Chinese live under brutal dictatorships. If you think the minor (relative to dictatorship) erosions to our freedoms are a bigger problem, it can only be because you are ignorant of life under dictatorship. Just ask any refugee from China or the former Eastern bloc. They’ll educate you.

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The biggest difference between the West and China/Russia is the West spends £billions on the welfare of its Citizens and China/Russia uses them as Cannon fodder as can be seen in the Ukraine war and the Chinese lockdowns that literally starved its Citizens.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Then you are seriously shortsighted I’m afraid.. if you took away US military might it would be an emperor with no clothes.. and it looks like the Ukraine war is making serious inroads into depleting US ammunition and land war weapons. Unless the dollar holds up (unlikely – look at the bank failures/debt) the US is finished.. smart Western nations should look to the future and stop riding a dying horse..

Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It’s not so much China and Russia will become stronger, its that we become far, far weaker. They can dominate if we collapse. What stops us becoming basket cases like South Africa?

The USA and its client states are economically weakening and wasting their remaining strategic power by not recognising their weakness, let alone trying to reverse that weakness. Using the international dollar system as a weapon was really stupid and only hastened the already slow decline of the dollar. One of just many really poor decisions that point to a bleak future for everyone. Can you think of any good trends in the West today?

Demographics is a small problem relative to our wilful destruction from within and the increasingly parastic relationship between the state and vested interests.

Malvin Marombedza
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The erosion of freedoms in the West, in my opinion, is a far greater problem than any that the Russians and Chinese face.

Andrew Martin
Andrew Martin
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The biggest difference between the West and China/Russia is the West spends £billions on the welfare of its Citizens and China/Russia uses them as Cannon fodder as can be seen in the Ukraine war and the Chinese lockdowns that literally starved its Citizens.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Then you are seriously shortsighted I’m afraid.. if you took away US military might it would be an emperor with no clothes.. and it looks like the Ukraine war is making serious inroads into depleting US ammunition and land war weapons. Unless the dollar holds up (unlikely – look at the bank failures/debt) the US is finished.. smart Western nations should look to the future and stop riding a dying horse..

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Utter BS. What “assets” are being sold off. I can’t believe 48 people upvoted this nonsense. Ridiculous.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Have you read any business news today? The federal reserve is in quite a flap. They are just selling, bailing, writing stuff off left right and centre right now.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Sure. I just looked at news about the federal reserve. Apparently the Fed is considering a rate hike and there some uncertainty about some banks. Not exactly end days yet, it would seem.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

OK. That is very simplistic and optimistic. I can’t help you. Back to your blissful existence.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Yu do realize a Marxist would have been saying the same thing in the 1930s?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

…yep, the Chinese probably would; that’ll the the same Chinese that pulled a billion people out of dire poverty while wages in the West stagnated and are now at starvation levels? Bear in mind the Chinese had to start from situations of having bern looted for centuries while the West had that loot to start with, over the same period. It just took a bit longer for socialism and it succeeded despite savage sanctions.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The west is at starvation levels….. perhaps on planet zog, where you seem to come from.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The west is at starvation levels….. perhaps on planet zog, where you seem to come from.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I imagine most people in the 1930s realised the stock market was puking. I think it was big news.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

And pretty much ever since. The lunatics have taken over this asylum.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

…yep, the Chinese probably would; that’ll the the same Chinese that pulled a billion people out of dire poverty while wages in the West stagnated and are now at starvation levels? Bear in mind the Chinese had to start from situations of having bern looted for centuries while the West had that loot to start with, over the same period. It just took a bit longer for socialism and it succeeded despite savage sanctions.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I imagine most people in the 1930s realised the stock market was puking. I think it was big news.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

And pretty much ever since. The lunatics have taken over this asylum.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Yu do realize a Marxist would have been saying the same thing in the 1930s?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

OK. That is very simplistic and optimistic. I can’t help you. Back to your blissful existence.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Sure. I just looked at news about the federal reserve. Apparently the Fed is considering a rate hike and there some uncertainty about some banks. Not exactly end days yet, it would seem.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

They’ll be the 48 that are aware of massive and numerous Chinese takeover of US and EU assets.. check it out!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Have you read any business news today? The federal reserve is in quite a flap. They are just selling, bailing, writing stuff off left right and centre right now.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

They’ll be the 48 that are aware of massive and numerous Chinese takeover of US and EU assets.. check it out!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Now that makes sense, as indeed the article itself makes perfect sense.

Shale Lewis
Shale Lewis
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

And that’s why Russia and China are unable to defend their borders against unending hordes of immigrants seeking asylum, while nobody would risk their life to gain entry to the USA or Western Europe anymore, as they are fading failed empires.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Shale Lewis

logic and common sense are useless against the brain-dead and deluded.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Shale Lewis

logic and common sense are useless against the brain-dead and deluded.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

I’m not saying that the west doesn’t have its own problems to deal with, but I’m still of the opinion that they pale in comparison to those facing the likes of China and Russia. There’s no doubt that the western share of the economy will diminish as the Asian nations especially become more established, but I can’t see any realistic scenario whereby China or Russia will become dominant powers

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Utter BS. What “assets” are being sold off. I can’t believe 48 people upvoted this nonsense. Ridiculous.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Now that makes sense, as indeed the article itself makes perfect sense.

Shale Lewis
Shale Lewis
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

And that’s why Russia and China are unable to defend their borders against unending hordes of immigrants seeking asylum, while nobody would risk their life to gain entry to the USA or Western Europe anymore, as they are fading failed empires.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I agree. I also think (these ideas have been doing the rounds) what seems to be overlooked is this was and would happen anyway regardless of the war. The war just accelerated it and brought such divisions into a starker light. China and Russia signed a general agreement before the war even started. The real question is how the “west” is going to react and play its cards because as you say that’s where the money is and hence the real power.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

You forget the rate at which that is changing, and has changed. The US is flat broke and in fatal decline politically, socially, culturally, industrially and economically.. The ‘wealth’ is largely funny money and the power is not quite what you think either.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

You forget the rate at which that is changing, and has changed. The US is flat broke and in fatal decline politically, socially, culturally, industrially and economically.. The ‘wealth’ is largely funny money and the power is not quite what you think either.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It seems to me that most of the world is ambivalent about the conflict they are certainly not prepared to sacrifice their own interests to support Ukraine.
Any reservations they have are no do doubt assuaged by Western exploits in Iraq and Libya

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

There are no “western exploits” in Ukraine. There is Ukraine defending itself, and getting aid from neighbouring countries who get it far better than commenters like you. Supporting Ukraine against a voracious Russian dictator may not seem to be in other countries interests, until the bear comes for them. That this sort of short-termism — and short-term memoryism — is being promoted reveals a profound historical ignorance.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Was Bush a dictator when he decided to invade Iraq? You would say not. Why? Because he supports your theories.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

No, I would say not because he was elected twice and stepped down when his term was up. What planet do you inhabit?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

But the invasion of Iraq was illegal, ie not sanctioned by the UN: and it was on the pretext of WMD which never existed, and Bush and Blair both knew that but lied to Congress via Colin Powell .. the chief weapons inspector Blix has called them both war criminals and so do I. What crazy planet do you live on? Is it called Blind Denial?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I don’t suppose you’ve ever heard of moving goalposts, even though that’s exactly what you’ve done. I showed Bush was no dictator and explained why. His invasion of Iraq doesn’t make him one, though I don’t expect you to understand that simple concept.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

I don’t suppose you’ve ever heard of moving goalposts, even though that’s exactly what you’ve done. I showed Bush was no dictator and explained why. His invasion of Iraq doesn’t make him one, though I don’t expect you to understand that simple concept.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

But the invasion of Iraq was illegal, ie not sanctioned by the UN: and it was on the pretext of WMD which never existed, and Bush and Blair both knew that but lied to Congress via Colin Powell .. the chief weapons inspector Blix has called them both war criminals and so do I. What crazy planet do you live on? Is it called Blind Denial?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

No, I would say not because he was elected twice and stepped down when his term was up. What planet do you inhabit?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Mr Storm I do not suppose my historical ignorance is nearly as profound as your own.
Indeed you seem to have forgotten all about Iraq and Libya, not to mention Cuba, El Salvador, Nicaragua and so on.
Why should countries in that do not boarder Russia, or have no reason to fear Russia, let the invasion of Ukraine get in the way if there is a financial incentive for them in continuing to trade with Russia.
For all the posturing, Russia and the US/the West potato potato

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Then you suppose incorrectly.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Then you suppose incorrectly.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Can you be a little more simplistic please.. your take on the situation is so nuanced it’s confusing the 5 year olds.
Thete is one voracious country that invades other sovereign nations at will, kills millions of its peoples, murders democratically elected leaders, and steals it’s oil and other resources ..but that’s not Russia and it’s not China either!

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This is the sort of predictable, boilerplate drivel Marxist-Leninist drone on about.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This is the sort of predictable, boilerplate drivel Marxist-Leninist drone on about.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Was Bush a dictator when he decided to invade Iraq? You would say not. Why? Because he supports your theories.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Mr Storm I do not suppose my historical ignorance is nearly as profound as your own.
Indeed you seem to have forgotten all about Iraq and Libya, not to mention Cuba, El Salvador, Nicaragua and so on.
Why should countries in that do not boarder Russia, or have no reason to fear Russia, let the invasion of Ukraine get in the way if there is a financial incentive for them in continuing to trade with Russia.
For all the posturing, Russia and the US/the West potato potato

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Can you be a little more simplistic please.. your take on the situation is so nuanced it’s confusing the 5 year olds.
Thete is one voracious country that invades other sovereign nations at will, kills millions of its peoples, murders democratically elected leaders, and steals it’s oil and other resources ..but that’s not Russia and it’s not China either!

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

There are no “western exploits” in Ukraine. There is Ukraine defending itself, and getting aid from neighbouring countries who get it far better than commenters like you. Supporting Ukraine against a voracious Russian dictator may not seem to be in other countries interests, until the bear comes for them. That this sort of short-termism — and short-term memoryism — is being promoted reveals a profound historical ignorance.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Have you been watching Peter Zeihan videos on youtube, he seems have made a career out of the idea that China and Russia are doomed due to demographic problems. Selling BS to right thinking people is a great business idea

Of course the West has great demographics, just take a stroll around London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels ect

Right now in California, which has great demographics BTW, the smart set want to build a kind of high speed rail line connecting the large cities, well they just can’t seem to get it done. In bad demographics China they went from no high speed rail to more high speed rail than the rest of the World combined in a bout 10 years. And in Japan which has terrible demographics, they are now building a Maglev line running the length of the country

Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Zeihan and some others, like George Friedman, have made a lucrative business of pronouncing perilous prophecies to open-mouthed audiences. They are as likely to be proven right as are the doomsayers of the Climate Change Cult; but it’s a good racket while it lasts. Friedman, I just discovered, was in 1991 was warning of an impending war between the US and … Japan! With well over 400 pages he wrote quite a fat book, full of supposedly persuasive data — and as wrong as could be. But that has not induced Friedman to get out of the prophesy business.
As to building high-speed rail, if that’s taken as proof of advanced development, China wins, as does Russia with its trans-Siberian railroad, even though it’s slower. But anyone studying American geography should conclude that, except for a small part of the northeast and the DC corridor, the economic feasibility of such showy projects doesn’t exist.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Wim de Vriend

Its not really about high speed rail, I just used that as an example

I could have used crime, look at Chicago and its wonderful demographics, how many people will be shot this year in Chicago, how many will be shot in a Chinese city of the same size ?

According to Zeihan and co, Chad should be a fantastic place to live, due to its superior demographics. But its clearly not. Why is that ?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Are you kidding? There is no street crime in China because the criminals run the country and do as they wish. Far more people in China are killed each year than in America; the difference is that they are killed by their own government.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Are you kidding? There is no street crime in China because the criminals run the country and do as they wish. Far more people in China are killed each year than in America; the difference is that they are killed by their own government.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Wim de Vriend

Its not really about high speed rail, I just used that as an example

I could have used crime, look at Chicago and its wonderful demographics, how many people will be shot this year in Chicago, how many will be shot in a Chinese city of the same size ?

According to Zeihan and co, Chad should be a fantastic place to live, due to its superior demographics. But its clearly not. Why is that ?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

I don’t know what to think of Zeihan but I do know, having watched his videos, that his predictions about Russia and China are based on a lot lot more than just demographic projections.

Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Zeihan and some others, like George Friedman, have made a lucrative business of pronouncing perilous prophecies to open-mouthed audiences. They are as likely to be proven right as are the doomsayers of the Climate Change Cult; but it’s a good racket while it lasts. Friedman, I just discovered, was in 1991 was warning of an impending war between the US and … Japan! With well over 400 pages he wrote quite a fat book, full of supposedly persuasive data — and as wrong as could be. But that has not induced Friedman to get out of the prophesy business.
As to building high-speed rail, if that’s taken as proof of advanced development, China wins, as does Russia with its trans-Siberian railroad, even though it’s slower. But anyone studying American geography should conclude that, except for a small part of the northeast and the DC corridor, the economic feasibility of such showy projects doesn’t exist.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

I don’t know what to think of Zeihan but I do know, having watched his videos, that his predictions about Russia and China are based on a lot lot more than just demographic projections.

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It comes as no surprise to me that the leaders of many countries choose to side with a couple of leaders who have changed to change their constitutions in order to remain in power indefinitely.
Whether that is what the citizens of those countries want is a different matter. But I don’t think they will get any choice.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

Now that’s an intelligent comment.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Mr Bellisarius

Now that’s an intelligent comment.

tom j
tom j
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Have a look at the paper which is his main source, it’s a bit more than a few stats Billy Bob:
https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/publications/a-world-divided/

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You couldn’t be more wrong if you set out to be. I guess you simply cannot accept that the world is changing. The British Empire is long gone (although its neocolonialism abides) and the US+ Empire is now crumbling. All the signs are there from near civil war, bank failures, unsustainable debt, dedollarisation, mad leaders, endless lies, double standards, huge corruption and a suicidal military industrial complex..
It was only a matter of time before the victims got sick of US hegemony and Anglo American neocolonialism.. It’s squeaky bum time for the white supremacist West.

simon lamb
simon lamb
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Not only do I agree with you on these points, but Russia is being hollowed out and exhausted by its war. China’s demographic problem is now echoed by Russia, which has lost a significant proportion of its young, brightest and best to the West – a huge gain for the latter going forward that barely gets mentioned. The idea that this shaky Axis of Dictators is taking over the world is laughable – Russia is a drowning man throwing sweets to children on the shore for help that they cannot possibly provide. China is standing by seeing what it can extract before helping, but terrified of being dragged in alongside in the process. Emerging economies have enormous problems of their own, and most can’t afford to fall out with anyone right now, so they stay low, stay neutral – and that’s best for their citizens. The west needs to reach out to them and compete using development aid, not try to bully them with morality-based appeals – given the US’s shabby record in that respect that’s pure arrogance.

Last edited 1 year ago by simon lamb
Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  simon lamb

Simon is right. Demography is destiny in the case and China and Russia are fucked

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  simon lamb

Simon is right. Demography is destiny in the case and China and Russia are fucked

Nik W
Nik W
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The US has far bigger housing bubbles and asset bubbles. It also has an aging population and a fentanyl crisis.
What is your point?? Odd post, this is the kind of flawed logic that turns off international audiences.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik W

Not nearly aging as fast as Russia and China and in fact America fares quite well especially linked with Mexico

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago
Reply to  Nik W

Not nearly aging as fast as Russia and China and in fact America fares quite well especially linked with Mexico

Kari McKern
Kari McKern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Completely cogent analysis.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

None of these writers seem to have noticed that there is a planet-sized elephant in the room: AI.

Economic competitiveness will increasingly depend on wide public access to the new tools derived from these technologies, a development that poses huge, perhaps insurmountable, problems for authoritarian regimes – as the CCP has already learnt.

James Jenkin
James Jenkin
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I don’t understand the relevance of population size in this article – “The remaining nations, comprising close to 90% of the world’s population, have refused to follow suit” – when many of these governments don’t reflect opinion in their country in any way

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

That’s what he does, I’m afraid, yet for some reason he gets a lot of column inches on this website.

Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The countries sanctioning are now barely a majority of the global economy in dollar terms, and in purchasing parity terms they are a minority. They are, collectively, growing far, far more slowly than the rest. And they are, collectively, running a huge current account deficit that is draining away their global investment position from which their economic clout comes.

The US and UK depend on selling their assets to fund consumption. They are literally selling their futures to pay for stuff today. Short of capital to fix problems, they are also now well down the road of repeatedly relying on the monetising of debt to finance balance sheet problems. This is end of empires type desperation.

This is a major reversal of economic strength in just 30 years, and one that has accelerated in the last decade. It looks exactly like the decline of Britain did and as we know Britain’s global power ebbed away slowly, then suddenly almost immediately after WW2.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nell Clover
Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I agree. I also think (these ideas have been doing the rounds) what seems to be overlooked is this was and would happen anyway regardless of the war. The war just accelerated it and brought such divisions into a starker light. China and Russia signed a general agreement before the war even started. The real question is how the “west” is going to react and play its cards because as you say that’s where the money is and hence the real power.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It seems to me that most of the world is ambivalent about the conflict they are certainly not prepared to sacrifice their own interests to support Ukraine.
Any reservations they have are no do doubt assuaged by Western exploits in Iraq and Libya

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Have you been watching Peter Zeihan videos on youtube, he seems have made a career out of the idea that China and Russia are doomed due to demographic problems. Selling BS to right thinking people is a great business idea

Of course the West has great demographics, just take a stroll around London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels ect

Right now in California, which has great demographics BTW, the smart set want to build a kind of high speed rail line connecting the large cities, well they just can’t seem to get it done. In bad demographics China they went from no high speed rail to more high speed rail than the rest of the World combined in a bout 10 years. And in Japan which has terrible demographics, they are now building a Maglev line running the length of the country

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It comes as no surprise to me that the leaders of many countries choose to side with a couple of leaders who have changed to change their constitutions in order to remain in power indefinitely.
Whether that is what the citizens of those countries want is a different matter. But I don’t think they will get any choice.

tom j
tom j
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Have a look at the paper which is his main source, it’s a bit more than a few stats Billy Bob:
https://www.bennettinstitute.cam.ac.uk/publications/a-world-divided/

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

You couldn’t be more wrong if you set out to be. I guess you simply cannot accept that the world is changing. The British Empire is long gone (although its neocolonialism abides) and the US+ Empire is now crumbling. All the signs are there from near civil war, bank failures, unsustainable debt, dedollarisation, mad leaders, endless lies, double standards, huge corruption and a suicidal military industrial complex..
It was only a matter of time before the victims got sick of US hegemony and Anglo American neocolonialism.. It’s squeaky bum time for the white supremacist West.

simon lamb
simon lamb
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Not only do I agree with you on these points, but Russia is being hollowed out and exhausted by its war. China’s demographic problem is now echoed by Russia, which has lost a significant proportion of its young, brightest and best to the West – a huge gain for the latter going forward that barely gets mentioned. The idea that this shaky Axis of Dictators is taking over the world is laughable – Russia is a drowning man throwing sweets to children on the shore for help that they cannot possibly provide. China is standing by seeing what it can extract before helping, but terrified of being dragged in alongside in the process. Emerging economies have enormous problems of their own, and most can’t afford to fall out with anyone right now, so they stay low, stay neutral – and that’s best for their citizens. The west needs to reach out to them and compete using development aid, not try to bully them with morality-based appeals – given the US’s shabby record in that respect that’s pure arrogance.

Last edited 1 year ago by simon lamb
Nik W
Nik W
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The US has far bigger housing bubbles and asset bubbles. It also has an aging population and a fentanyl crisis.
What is your point?? Odd post, this is the kind of flawed logic that turns off international audiences.

Kari McKern
Kari McKern
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Completely cogent analysis.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

None of these writers seem to have noticed that there is a planet-sized elephant in the room: AI.

Economic competitiveness will increasingly depend on wide public access to the new tools derived from these technologies, a development that poses huge, perhaps insurmountable, problems for authoritarian regimes – as the CCP has already learnt.

James Jenkin
James Jenkin
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I don’t understand the relevance of population size in this article – “The remaining nations, comprising close to 90% of the world’s population, have refused to follow suit” – when many of these governments don’t reflect opinion in their country in any way

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

The author appears to be drawing some incredibly long bows here. Suggesting that because all those (largely poorer) countries haven’t joined in with the western sanctions means that they must therefore be aligned with Putin seems to be clutching at straws. Likewise that India is abandoning the west simply because they’ve taken advantage of buying cheap oil from Russia again seems far fetched.
He fails to mention Chinas demographic time bomb due to its one child policy, whereby it’s getting old before it’s hard chance to get rich. There’s no mention of Chinas 20%+ youth unemployment or it’s colossal asset bubble. Most of Chinas high value trade is still with western nations. Despite the tension it isn’t going to give that up and replace it with the Russians or the South Africans, a basket case of a country that can barely feed its population or keep the lights on.
As has been mentioned, whilst the countries sanctioning Putin make up a a fraction of the world’s population, they’re a majority of the worlds economy which is much more important in the context of the article than sheer numbers.
All in all the article seems to have cherry picked a few stats in order to fit a predetermined narrative rather than being an objective look at the geopolitical situation arising from the conflict

Cantab Man
Cantab Man
1 year ago

China is the big winner of this perpetual proxy war between Russia and the West in Ukraine.

Russia is rapidly destroying both blood and treasure in the war as well as now being a pariah within the financial centers of the West (which, incidentally, froze the country’s and leaders’ assets within various financial institutions). This will ensure Russia’s near-term demotion into a second-tier vassal state that must inevitably do China’s bidding to survive in the short-to-medium term.

The West is slowly depleting both treasure and its stockpiled matériel against Russia in this war which is, most assuredly, in China’s favor.

And the fixation on this proxy war between Russia and the West is allowing China to quietly carry on with their business of collecting countries like trading cards via China’s prized ‘business investments’ in those countries coupled with under-the-table payoff of their government officials to ensure a smooth transition away from the West’s…

…wait a minute…how many millions of dollars did Joe Biden and his family secretly receive from China over the past eight to 10 years according to the newly-released records by the US Treasury Department? Something is rotten in Biden’s $2.7m Delaware Beach House purchased and modified on a civil servant’s and community college teacher’s salary.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Ukraine was widely said to be the Clinton, Obama, and Biden piggy bank.

per person GDP

USA $70,000

UK $45,000

Ukraine $4,500

Ukraine has resources, education, industry, agriculture – is surrounded by wealthy trading partners – but is one of the poorest Nations on Earth! Ever wonder why? Because they are the World’s 14th most corrupt nation! When you back Zelenski you back the Mafia who kept Ukraine dirt poor wile deep in wealth. Hunter ring a bell? Do you wonder where the $113 Billion went? because no one in the Democrat, or Rino, parties do………(remember FTX? Burisma, and you can be sure, SVB…that bail out is pretty odd…)

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

You conveniently forget to mention that Russia is even more corrupt than Ukraine:
–Ukraine is at 116 down the list
–Russia is at 137 from the top
But you knew that already.
Moreover, Russia has destroyed its own army in Ukraine–the only thing that made it a great power–besides the nuclear weapons it can never use.
But maybe Hunter Biden did all this to Russia?
If so, he seems even more competent than his Dad.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Have you read any Ukrainian history? To answer your question, because it was an ex Communist country like Russia and huge power was seized by oligarchs during the naïve (and likely cynical) botched transition to private rather than state enterprise. The Ukrainians have been painfully and slowly addressing that, improving governance, have reasonably free elections etc. Russia tragically has gone in the opposite direction.

Yanukovych of course was one of its most deeply corrupt presidents – his ousting in 2014 (after a popular uprising) is of course attacked by the pro Putin Right who want it both ways on this issue! Whatever, the fact there is corruption in Ukraine doesn’t give Russia a justification for a full scale invasion. Poland had an undemocratic nationalist government in 1939, less than perfect in its treatment of minorities, which didn’t justify Hitlers’s invasion then.

Unfortunately your interventions are entirely dominated by the US culture war and polarisation, and while interesting enough isn’t the whole of reality – some of us would really like to talk about something else some time. Could you ever try to do so?

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Unfortunately, history is prone to interpretation. Any argument based on history misses the real time – now. Look at Northern Ireland. Every day new history appeared. The latest bomb was because of history – that is, yesterday’s bomb.
Of course, corruption in the US is just as bad. Just a different type of corruption. More sophisticated corruption.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Wheatley
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Obviously buddy has never experienced the corruption that goes on in a dictatorship. Unfortunately, that doesn’t stop him from spewing.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Obviously buddy has never experienced the corruption that goes on in a dictatorship. Unfortunately, that doesn’t stop him from spewing.

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

I’d emphasize the “resource curse”. Very few petrostates (Norway, Canada) keep corruption in check. Russia may simply be doomed. Ukrainians, surrounded by ex-communist states, understandably want Ukraine to be more like Poland and less like Russia.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Unfortunately, history is prone to interpretation. Any argument based on history misses the real time – now. Look at Northern Ireland. Every day new history appeared. The latest bomb was because of history – that is, yesterday’s bomb.
Of course, corruption in the US is just as bad. Just a different type of corruption. More sophisticated corruption.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Wheatley
Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

I’d emphasize the “resource curse”. Very few petrostates (Norway, Canada) keep corruption in check. Russia may simply be doomed. Ukrainians, surrounded by ex-communist states, understandably want Ukraine to be more like Poland and less like Russia.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Oh shut up already. Repeating the same crap over and over again doesn’t make it any more factual or sane.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

You do know you sound paranoid, don’t you?

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

He sounds angry at the world. There can only be one view -his view.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

He sounds angry at the world. There can only be one view -his view.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

You conveniently forget to mention that Russia is even more corrupt than Ukraine:
–Ukraine is at 116 down the list
–Russia is at 137 from the top
But you knew that already.
Moreover, Russia has destroyed its own army in Ukraine–the only thing that made it a great power–besides the nuclear weapons it can never use.
But maybe Hunter Biden did all this to Russia?
If so, he seems even more competent than his Dad.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Have you read any Ukrainian history? To answer your question, because it was an ex Communist country like Russia and huge power was seized by oligarchs during the naïve (and likely cynical) botched transition to private rather than state enterprise. The Ukrainians have been painfully and slowly addressing that, improving governance, have reasonably free elections etc. Russia tragically has gone in the opposite direction.

Yanukovych of course was one of its most deeply corrupt presidents – his ousting in 2014 (after a popular uprising) is of course attacked by the pro Putin Right who want it both ways on this issue! Whatever, the fact there is corruption in Ukraine doesn’t give Russia a justification for a full scale invasion. Poland had an undemocratic nationalist government in 1939, less than perfect in its treatment of minorities, which didn’t justify Hitlers’s invasion then.

Unfortunately your interventions are entirely dominated by the US culture war and polarisation, and while interesting enough isn’t the whole of reality – some of us would really like to talk about something else some time. Could you ever try to do so?

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Oh shut up already. Repeating the same crap over and over again doesn’t make it any more factual or sane.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

You do know you sound paranoid, don’t you?

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Obsessed with US internal polarisation! What has this to do with whether we allow Vladimir Putin to conquer Ukraine?

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

How are you planning to stop him? Many generations have grown up with John Wayne riding into the picture just before the heroine meets a fate worse than death.
The ONLY real anti-Putin hope is that Biden puts on his cowboy hat. But he wouldn’t even be able to get on the horse. (And it would probably be stopped because of cruelty to the horse).
The US is in such a state internally that it is powerless. And wait another year until we get the battle between Mr Geriatric and Mr Orange. Then the Ukraine will be forgotten and the conversation will morph into ‘Defund the Police’ or ‘Give the Police bigger guns’.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Er, I think we’ve been stopping him for some 9 months. Indeed, pushing him back quite bit in other places.
Do you have access to things like radio, the internet and television?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Er, I think we’ve been stopping him for some 9 months. Indeed, pushing him back quite bit in other places.
Do you have access to things like radio, the internet and television?

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

How are you planning to stop him? Many generations have grown up with John Wayne riding into the picture just before the heroine meets a fate worse than death.
The ONLY real anti-Putin hope is that Biden puts on his cowboy hat. But he wouldn’t even be able to get on the horse. (And it would probably be stopped because of cruelty to the horse).
The US is in such a state internally that it is powerless. And wait another year until we get the battle between Mr Geriatric and Mr Orange. Then the Ukraine will be forgotten and the conversation will morph into ‘Defund the Police’ or ‘Give the Police bigger guns’.

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Because it has vast natural wealth and has, by far, the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, Russia will never become a vassal state to China in the way that the pathetic obsequious UK is to the USA.

BTW it’s not just the UK.
There are no real sovereign states in Europe now – we are all mere pawns to US hegemony.

We have learnt nothing from the last 60 yrs of ‘Pax’ Americana . As Henry Kissenger said: ‘To be an enemy of the US can be dangerous but to be a friend is fatal’.
Europe will pay an enormous price in blood and treasure for being a ‘friend’ of the USofA.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

When I see “U.S. hegemony” I know the commenter is a propagandist without knowledge or insight. I’ve been hearing this “we are all pawns” crap my entire adult life. It was BS then, and remains so.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Why do you think we joined the invasion of Iraq?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Who’s “we”? I’m Canadian, or what you would call a citizen of a client-state. Yet somehow we managed to avoid the Iraq War without getting a spanking from our hegemon across the border.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Who’s “we”? I’m Canadian, or what you would call a citizen of a client-state. Yet somehow we managed to avoid the Iraq War without getting a spanking from our hegemon across the border.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Why do you think we joined the invasion of Iraq?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Yes, Europe has certainly fallen very far since the end of WWII because of its strong connection with, and aid from, the U.S. This could give “dumb and dumber” a run for its money.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

When I see “U.S. hegemony” I know the commenter is a propagandist without knowledge or insight. I’ve been hearing this “we are all pawns” crap my entire adult life. It was BS then, and remains so.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Yes, Europe has certainly fallen very far since the end of WWII because of its strong connection with, and aid from, the U.S. This could give “dumb and dumber” a run for its money.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Ukraine was widely said to be the Clinton, Obama, and Biden piggy bank.

per person GDP

USA $70,000

UK $45,000

Ukraine $4,500

Ukraine has resources, education, industry, agriculture – is surrounded by wealthy trading partners – but is one of the poorest Nations on Earth! Ever wonder why? Because they are the World’s 14th most corrupt nation! When you back Zelenski you back the Mafia who kept Ukraine dirt poor wile deep in wealth. Hunter ring a bell? Do you wonder where the $113 Billion went? because no one in the Democrat, or Rino, parties do………(remember FTX? Burisma, and you can be sure, SVB…that bail out is pretty odd…)

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Obsessed with US internal polarisation! What has this to do with whether we allow Vladimir Putin to conquer Ukraine?

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  Cantab Man

Because it has vast natural wealth and has, by far, the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, Russia will never become a vassal state to China in the way that the pathetic obsequious UK is to the USA.

BTW it’s not just the UK.
There are no real sovereign states in Europe now – we are all mere pawns to US hegemony.

We have learnt nothing from the last 60 yrs of ‘Pax’ Americana . As Henry Kissenger said: ‘To be an enemy of the US can be dangerous but to be a friend is fatal’.
Europe will pay an enormous price in blood and treasure for being a ‘friend’ of the USofA.

Cantab Man
Cantab Man
1 year ago

China is the big winner of this perpetual proxy war between Russia and the West in Ukraine.

Russia is rapidly destroying both blood and treasure in the war as well as now being a pariah within the financial centers of the West (which, incidentally, froze the country’s and leaders’ assets within various financial institutions). This will ensure Russia’s near-term demotion into a second-tier vassal state that must inevitably do China’s bidding to survive in the short-to-medium term.

The West is slowly depleting both treasure and its stockpiled matériel against Russia in this war which is, most assuredly, in China’s favor.

And the fixation on this proxy war between Russia and the West is allowing China to quietly carry on with their business of collecting countries like trading cards via China’s prized ‘business investments’ in those countries coupled with under-the-table payoff of their government officials to ensure a smooth transition away from the West’s…

…wait a minute…how many millions of dollars did Joe Biden and his family secretly receive from China over the past eight to 10 years according to the newly-released records by the US Treasury Department? Something is rotten in Biden’s $2.7m Delaware Beach House purchased and modified on a civil servant’s and community college teacher’s salary.

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago

This is a great article to put things in context and Fazi is one of my favourite authors on Unherd. This context is important, without having heard of it, it’s virtually impossible to understand what’s happening in the world for anyone.
There’s something of a starvation of information in the Western world. A great case in example is the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps a day of watching regular Turkish TV could’ve dispelled someone from the notion that Iraq war was about anything but access to oil. Yet it seems it’s taken 20 years for a respectable (yet not mainstream) publishers like Unherd to feel comfortable enough to start discussing it openly.
It’s telling to see how uncomfortable Alastair Campbell looks when talking about Iraq unable to say the things he clearly wants to say but can’t. So why don’t politicians tell it as it is?
I tie it to the idealistic nature of the liberal Western system we live in (in particular American exceptionalism) and its historical baggage. What possible justification can someone give to invading another country? A Communist Russia or China could declare openly they want to export their brand of ideology to rescue workers of other countries. Nationalist Russia today open talks about retaining super-power status and wanting to control its backyard. Going further back Ottoman Empire wanted to expand the world of Islam, the Crusaders wanted to liberate Jerusalem. Yet a liberal West with a (deservedly) much maligned colonial past is hesitant to export anything.
This seems to be creating a cognitive dissonance situation in any Western leader. They need to be upholding pristine ideals when talking publicly, yet conduct business and international relations in the dirty real world. The information is out there, easily accessible, say on Turkish TV, but how does it remain an unrespectable “conspiracy theory” for the general Western public for 20 years? It clearly requires a well developed alignment across publishers of information – aka propaganda you might say.
Then here we are. There’s a generation of young people who have never been told about anything but pristine ideals being raised up on liberal ideological purity. We recognise them as the Woke today. A select few of them are expected to take up cognitive dissonance to conduct the dirty real world business on behalf of others while copiously virtue signalling. A great many are revolting against perceived impurities of the society they live in, burning down city centres tearing down shop fronts when they can in some of the wealthiest parts of the West.
As late as 30 years ago, new legislation in Britain was banning schools from promoting acceptability of homosexuality. Today’s youngters brought up in ideological purity are demonstrating against reaction of Qatar to rainbow flags in the football cup. BBC has been hunting down organisations not sufficiently supporting the Pride events. Putin is quoted as saying the West sank down in morality where the terms “mother and father” are replaced by parent 1 and 2. Saudi Arabia is banning the variety of children’s toys clad in rainbow colours. The contrast is clear, and the list goes on.
This is the context to the decoupling of the American West to the rest of the world as I see it. I don’t see it getting much better as long as there’s no acceptance in the West to see the world as it is instead of how they want to see it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Emre S
Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Fully agreed, with both the article and your comment.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Well said sir !

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Fully agreed, with both the article and your comment.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Well said sir !

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago

This is a great article to put things in context and Fazi is one of my favourite authors on Unherd. This context is important, without having heard of it, it’s virtually impossible to understand what’s happening in the world for anyone.
There’s something of a starvation of information in the Western world. A great case in example is the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps a day of watching regular Turkish TV could’ve dispelled someone from the notion that Iraq war was about anything but access to oil. Yet it seems it’s taken 20 years for a respectable (yet not mainstream) publishers like Unherd to feel comfortable enough to start discussing it openly.
It’s telling to see how uncomfortable Alastair Campbell looks when talking about Iraq unable to say the things he clearly wants to say but can’t. So why don’t politicians tell it as it is?
I tie it to the idealistic nature of the liberal Western system we live in (in particular American exceptionalism) and its historical baggage. What possible justification can someone give to invading another country? A Communist Russia or China could declare openly they want to export their brand of ideology to rescue workers of other countries. Nationalist Russia today open talks about retaining super-power status and wanting to control its backyard. Going further back Ottoman Empire wanted to expand the world of Islam, the Crusaders wanted to liberate Jerusalem. Yet a liberal West with a (deservedly) much maligned colonial past is hesitant to export anything.
This seems to be creating a cognitive dissonance situation in any Western leader. They need to be upholding pristine ideals when talking publicly, yet conduct business and international relations in the dirty real world. The information is out there, easily accessible, say on Turkish TV, but how does it remain an unrespectable “conspiracy theory” for the general Western public for 20 years? It clearly requires a well developed alignment across publishers of information – aka propaganda you might say.
Then here we are. There’s a generation of young people who have never been told about anything but pristine ideals being raised up on liberal ideological purity. We recognise them as the Woke today. A select few of them are expected to take up cognitive dissonance to conduct the dirty real world business on behalf of others while copiously virtue signalling. A great many are revolting against perceived impurities of the society they live in, burning down city centres tearing down shop fronts when they can in some of the wealthiest parts of the West.
As late as 30 years ago, new legislation in Britain was banning schools from promoting acceptability of homosexuality. Today’s youngters brought up in ideological purity are demonstrating against reaction of Qatar to rainbow flags in the football cup. BBC has been hunting down organisations not sufficiently supporting the Pride events. Putin is quoted as saying the West sank down in morality where the terms “mother and father” are replaced by parent 1 and 2. Saudi Arabia is banning the variety of children’s toys clad in rainbow colours. The contrast is clear, and the list goes on.
This is the context to the decoupling of the American West to the rest of the world as I see it. I don’t see it getting much better as long as there’s no acceptance in the West to see the world as it is instead of how they want to see it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Emre S
Arthur G
Arthur G
1 year ago

The author makes the fundamental mistake of counting by population. The US, NATO, and our Pacific allies have 50% of the world’s GDP and way more than 50% of the military power. Population is virtually meaningless in 2023. Having hundreds of millions of subsistence level mouths to feed is a burden for a country in wartime, not a strength.
The West may be one pole in a multi-polar world, but it’s one pole that’s stronger than all the others. Since the Western powers are now energy self-sufficient, they could form an economic trade block and leave the rest of the world in their dust.

Last edited 1 year ago by Arthur G
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

The author is discussing the eroding influence of the US across world. He’s not comparing the GDP of one block vs the next, or the military might of each. The US needs to get its house in order or its influence will fade even more.

And how is the west energy self sufficient? We still buy a lot of oil from the Middle East.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It is self-sufficient from Russian gas now.
Putin’s own-goal.

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Utter rubbish. Many countries in Europe are still buying Russian energy – but from middlemen at inflated prices.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Which Russia is selling at reduced prices. Even last year, Rusoil had a precipitous fall in profits.
Great business model there, Vova!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Which Russia is selling at reduced prices. Even last year, Rusoil had a precipitous fall in profits.
Great business model there, Vova!

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Utter rubbish. Many countries in Europe are still buying Russian energy – but from middlemen at inflated prices.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The US was self sufficient before Biden and could return that way again.
Also all those countries and particularly China and India aren’t self sufficient either. The ME isn’t really against the US (accept obviously Iran and it’s proxies) just not for it. From here on in it depends how the “west” plays its cards. The “west” wants everyone to move from fossil fuels but all those countries (including China) want the “west” to pay for it ….

Last edited 1 year ago by Isabel Ward
Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

I’d be very surprised to learn that any Muslim countries of North Africa, the Near East, The Middle East, or South Asia have a favorable opinion of the U.S.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

Those countries need to worry more about how other countries view them.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Why? So that they agree with you?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

No, so they can improve the lot of their sorry citizenry and make positive contributions that benefit their own people and the rest of the world, instead of being the stagnant places they currently are.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

No, so they can improve the lot of their sorry citizenry and make positive contributions that benefit their own people and the rest of the world, instead of being the stagnant places they currently are.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

I think they have demonstrated they do not give a t*ss

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

And look where it’s gotten them to date.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Not in the same sh*t we are

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

No, in far far worse sh*t, based on any metric of human wealth, happiness or health. But hey, enjoy your stupid little bubble.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

No, in far far worse sh*t, based on any metric of human wealth, happiness or health. But hey, enjoy your stupid little bubble.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Not in the same sh*t we are

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

And look where it’s gotten them to date.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Why? So that they agree with you?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

I think they have demonstrated they do not give a t*ss

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

Those countries need to worry more about how other countries view them.

Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

I’d be very surprised to learn that any Muslim countries of North Africa, the Near East, The Middle East, or South Asia have a favorable opinion of the U.S.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It is self-sufficient from Russian gas now.
Putin’s own-goal.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The US was self sufficient before Biden and could return that way again.
Also all those countries and particularly China and India aren’t self sufficient either. The ME isn’t really against the US (accept obviously Iran and it’s proxies) just not for it. From here on in it depends how the “west” plays its cards. The “west” wants everyone to move from fossil fuels but all those countries (including China) want the “west” to pay for it ….

Last edited 1 year ago by Isabel Ward
Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

The British Empire also closed itself off at what was both its 20th century height and also its closing chapter. The British Empire faced strengthening overseas competitors, but assumed it was and would remain more powerful. And yet in a generation it had mostly been swept away. A new bipolar world was born and the preceding global powers weren’t one of them.

Fundamentally though, unlike the British Empire, the West isn’t as economically strong as the British Empire was. A Western trade block *isn’t* self sufficient in energy or materials or goods or capital. We overestimate our economic strength, seemingly blinded by consumption paid for by winding down our capital

Jake Dee
Jake Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Population is virtually meaningless in 2023.

What a bizarre statement.
Who wins in a fight between Luxembourg and Germany or between Monaco and France ? That population is taxpayers for revenue, workers for production, soldiers, sailors and airmen for fighting and administrators to control all of it. And they have to do that day after day month after month year after year.
No doubt weapons technology is a very important part of warfare but the next war will not be like the gunpowder empires of the age of discovery vs the native tribes. There is no weapon system that the West has that Russia and China don’t also have, or a very close analog. And Chinese production alone beats the USA and the EU combined.
How do you slice off “The West” from “The Rest” and keep the West running at anything close to the standard of living it now enjoys ? I think you’re wrong on energy imports but even without that, are all the raw materials needed to keep production at current levels to be found within the West’s borders ? What if some nation didn’t want to be kept exclusively within the Western autarky ? clearly it would be better to deal with 2 bidders rather than just one, what will happen then ? Will they be forced to provide their resources by force of arms ?
I find the idea that the majority of the worlds population will be willing to take a major cut in pay to ensure the global pre-eminence of Washington to be preposterous.
There are some things that a man (or a nation of men) will absolutely fight to the death for. One is the freedom to do as they please within their own house, another is to ensure that the house has food on the table.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jake Dee

You left out the thing nations will fight for more than anything else: their sovereignty, when it’s threatened by other nations, i.e. when they’re invaded. Ukraine is a case in point, yet it’s being disparaged, and aiding it is being discouraged. Wrong and stupid.

john gunderson
john gunderson
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Not wrong or stupid. The fate of Ukraine is not in our national strategic interest. Domino theory does not apply here. Like I said before, it’s in your backyard so if you’re so gung-ho about defending Ukraine do it yourself and make sure you put your children on the front lines.

Last edited 1 year ago by john gunderson
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  john gunderson

The short-termism you display is really quite sad.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  john gunderson

The short-termism you display is really quite sad.

john gunderson
john gunderson
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

Not wrong or stupid. The fate of Ukraine is not in our national strategic interest. Domino theory does not apply here. Like I said before, it’s in your backyard so if you’re so gung-ho about defending Ukraine do it yourself and make sure you put your children on the front lines.

Last edited 1 year ago by john gunderson
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Jake Dee

You left out the thing nations will fight for more than anything else: their sovereignty, when it’s threatened by other nations, i.e. when they’re invaded. Ukraine is a case in point, yet it’s being disparaged, and aiding it is being discouraged. Wrong and stupid.

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

And these poor countries tend to be far from the conflict, with understandably more practical priorities (though their poverty often results from Russia-like corruption and disrespect for human rights). Of course they’ll import Russian gas on the cheap. Funny that the author exalts Russian energy exports, when the “resource curse” is a major factor in Russia’s condition, and Russia’s pitiful manufacturing is declining further. Certainly no one is going to buy Russian weapons anymore.

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Perhaps that’s why the Wagner Group have been experimenting with large groups of unskilled cannon fodder.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

The author is discussing the eroding influence of the US across world. He’s not comparing the GDP of one block vs the next, or the military might of each. The US needs to get its house in order or its influence will fade even more.

And how is the west energy self sufficient? We still buy a lot of oil from the Middle East.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

The British Empire also closed itself off at what was both its 20th century height and also its closing chapter. The British Empire faced strengthening overseas competitors, but assumed it was and would remain more powerful. And yet in a generation it had mostly been swept away. A new bipolar world was born and the preceding global powers weren’t one of them.

Fundamentally though, unlike the British Empire, the West isn’t as economically strong as the British Empire was. A Western trade block *isn’t* self sufficient in energy or materials or goods or capital. We overestimate our economic strength, seemingly blinded by consumption paid for by winding down our capital

Jake Dee
Jake Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Population is virtually meaningless in 2023.

What a bizarre statement.
Who wins in a fight between Luxembourg and Germany or between Monaco and France ? That population is taxpayers for revenue, workers for production, soldiers, sailors and airmen for fighting and administrators to control all of it. And they have to do that day after day month after month year after year.
No doubt weapons technology is a very important part of warfare but the next war will not be like the gunpowder empires of the age of discovery vs the native tribes. There is no weapon system that the West has that Russia and China don’t also have, or a very close analog. And Chinese production alone beats the USA and the EU combined.
How do you slice off “The West” from “The Rest” and keep the West running at anything close to the standard of living it now enjoys ? I think you’re wrong on energy imports but even without that, are all the raw materials needed to keep production at current levels to be found within the West’s borders ? What if some nation didn’t want to be kept exclusively within the Western autarky ? clearly it would be better to deal with 2 bidders rather than just one, what will happen then ? Will they be forced to provide their resources by force of arms ?
I find the idea that the majority of the worlds population will be willing to take a major cut in pay to ensure the global pre-eminence of Washington to be preposterous.
There are some things that a man (or a nation of men) will absolutely fight to the death for. One is the freedom to do as they please within their own house, another is to ensure that the house has food on the table.

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

And these poor countries tend to be far from the conflict, with understandably more practical priorities (though their poverty often results from Russia-like corruption and disrespect for human rights). Of course they’ll import Russian gas on the cheap. Funny that the author exalts Russian energy exports, when the “resource curse” is a major factor in Russia’s condition, and Russia’s pitiful manufacturing is declining further. Certainly no one is going to buy Russian weapons anymore.

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Arthur G

Perhaps that’s why the Wagner Group have been experimenting with large groups of unskilled cannon fodder.

Arthur G
Arthur G
1 year ago

The author makes the fundamental mistake of counting by population. The US, NATO, and our Pacific allies have 50% of the world’s GDP and way more than 50% of the military power. Population is virtually meaningless in 2023. Having hundreds of millions of subsistence level mouths to feed is a burden for a country in wartime, not a strength.
The West may be one pole in a multi-polar world, but it’s one pole that’s stronger than all the others. Since the Western powers are now energy self-sufficient, they could form an economic trade block and leave the rest of the world in their dust.

Last edited 1 year ago by Arthur G
j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Fazi is correct that there is an ideological battle underway and a new Cold War. It’s just he’s on the wrong side and his dislike of all things US clouds every article he writes. If he spent some time trying to practice his profession in Xi or Putin’s backyard he might develop a more rounded perspective. That doesn’t mean no critique of western policies but the warped one sided view he often conveys little better than what the FSB or MSS would hope to convey.
The reason countries ‘project’ there own failings onto the West/USA is because they recognise the West has conscience and the capability to actually respond to that narrative. It’s also often an admission of how these places have drifted backwards in democratic ideals – for goodness sake they can’t even keep the lights on in S Africa because they’ve had a one party system for 30yrs.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Yes, I don’t understand the significance assigned to SA participating in “war exercises”. Should we tremble over that huge development? Hasn’t that country slipped into the abyss?

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Yes, I don’t understand the significance assigned to SA participating in “war exercises”. Should we tremble over that huge development? Hasn’t that country slipped into the abyss?

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Fazi is correct that there is an ideological battle underway and a new Cold War. It’s just he’s on the wrong side and his dislike of all things US clouds every article he writes. If he spent some time trying to practice his profession in Xi or Putin’s backyard he might develop a more rounded perspective. That doesn’t mean no critique of western policies but the warped one sided view he often conveys little better than what the FSB or MSS would hope to convey.
The reason countries ‘project’ there own failings onto the West/USA is because they recognise the West has conscience and the capability to actually respond to that narrative. It’s also often an admission of how these places have drifted backwards in democratic ideals – for goodness sake they can’t even keep the lights on in S Africa because they’ve had a one party system for 30yrs.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

I retract any snark I may have posted about this article, I may have been biased against it but the author has totally convinced me I was l in the wrong once he brought out the big guns, because look, he quoted Clement Manyathela, and I mean, if Clement has pronounced, it’s as good as game over isn’t it, it’s virtually unarguable like a mathematical proof.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Prash, we always appreciate any snark you post, you do it in a very subdued and British way – not like my BOLD and Capitalizing, and F_c*ing!!! exclamation marks….

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

But, you see that if everything has exclamation marks, it’s the same as nothing having exclamation marks. And by the time you wade through the marks you get bored.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Much the same as swearing in a comic routine – occasionally for emphasis and comic effect, routinely makes it very annoying!!

James Sullivan
James Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

You could get creative and adopt the Spanish ¡¡¡ inverted exclamation marks. ¡It makes any sentence feel more emphatic!¡¡! and it¡s eye catching too.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

It might be about time for Elliot to be “Bjorn’ again under a slightly less bombastic on line personality – if that is possible. Actually this is his third ? nom de plume -and he might be getting worse….was quite entertaining the first time around !

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Much the same as swearing in a comic routine – occasionally for emphasis and comic effect, routinely makes it very annoying!!

James Sullivan
James Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

You could get creative and adopt the Spanish ¡¡¡ inverted exclamation marks. ¡It makes any sentence feel more emphatic!¡¡! and it¡s eye catching too.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

It might be about time for Elliot to be “Bjorn’ again under a slightly less bombastic on line personality – if that is possible. Actually this is his third ? nom de plume -and he might be getting worse….was quite entertaining the first time around !

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

But, you see that if everything has exclamation marks, it’s the same as nothing having exclamation marks. And by the time you wade through the marks you get bored.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Prash, we always appreciate any snark you post, you do it in a very subdued and British way – not like my BOLD and Capitalizing, and F_c*ing!!! exclamation marks….

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

I retract any snark I may have posted about this article, I may have been biased against it but the author has totally convinced me I was l in the wrong once he brought out the big guns, because look, he quoted Clement Manyathela, and I mean, if Clement has pronounced, it’s as good as game over isn’t it, it’s virtually unarguable like a mathematical proof.

Gerald Gleeson
Gerald Gleeson
1 year ago

I think that people in all those countries at present not supporting the West would readily live in a Western country than in Russia or China!

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerald Gleeson

The author seems to have confused African, Asian and South American nations not wanting to get involved in a conflict on a different continent with full throated support for Putins invasion

A Spetzari
A Spetzari
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

One telling metric is the number of foreign fighters travelling to Ukraine on both sides.
People have come from all over the West and elsewhere to help Ukrainians in their tens of thousands.
Some have also come to help Russia – true – but an inconsequential number from countries Thomas has extrapolated are suddenly Pro-Putin, Pro-China diehards.
It might suggest that support for a China/Russia dominated World order is not that popular. As others here have pointed out, it’s one thing not vocally and materially supporting Ukraine, another thing entirely to suggest that therefore everyone else supports Russia and China

A Spetzari
A Spetzari
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

One telling metric is the number of foreign fighters travelling to Ukraine on both sides.
People have come from all over the West and elsewhere to help Ukrainians in their tens of thousands.
Some have also come to help Russia – true – but an inconsequential number from countries Thomas has extrapolated are suddenly Pro-Putin, Pro-China diehards.
It might suggest that support for a China/Russia dominated World order is not that popular. As others here have pointed out, it’s one thing not vocally and materially supporting Ukraine, another thing entirely to suggest that therefore everyone else supports Russia and China

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerald Gleeson

The author seems to have confused African, Asian and South American nations not wanting to get involved in a conflict on a different continent with full throated support for Putins invasion

Gerald Gleeson
Gerald Gleeson
1 year ago

I think that people in all those countries at present not supporting the West would readily live in a Western country than in Russia or China!

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
1 year ago

So, Mr. Fazi, you are more or less saying the world is falling back into its pre-1989 ‘spheres of influence’ when many developing / post-colonial nations supported the USSR? You also fail to mention China’s colonial role in Africa, supported only by the kleptocracies in charge.
Look, Thomas is of the reflexively anti-Western Euro Left, one which would like to stick it’s fingers in it’s ears and shout la-la-la while China and Russia do their thing. Why not just say so?

Ben Jones
Ben Jones
1 year ago

So, Mr. Fazi, you are more or less saying the world is falling back into its pre-1989 ‘spheres of influence’ when many developing / post-colonial nations supported the USSR? You also fail to mention China’s colonial role in Africa, supported only by the kleptocracies in charge.
Look, Thomas is of the reflexively anti-Western Euro Left, one which would like to stick it’s fingers in it’s ears and shout la-la-la while China and Russia do their thing. Why not just say so?

Matt Hindman
Matt Hindman
1 year ago

Huh, you know I seem to recall everyone who voiced this opinion in the last year was denounced as a “Putin puppet”. The 20th anniversary of the 2nd Iraq War is a beautifully ironic bonus to this mess.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

Actually, they were also saying that Putin wouldn’t invade, because he couldn’t succeed.
They seem to have been right.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

The U.S. invaded Iraq. Think of that what you will, but it hasn’t invaded Ukraine. Putin did.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

The US lost its hegemony because it invaded Iraq.
Ergo, Russia will gain its hegemony by invading Ukraine.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

The US lost its hegemony because it invaded Iraq.
Ergo, Russia will gain its hegemony by invading Ukraine.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

Actually, they were also saying that Putin wouldn’t invade, because he couldn’t succeed.
They seem to have been right.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

The U.S. invaded Iraq. Think of that what you will, but it hasn’t invaded Ukraine. Putin did.

Matt Hindman
Matt Hindman
1 year ago

Huh, you know I seem to recall everyone who voiced this opinion in the last year was denounced as a “Putin puppet”. The 20th anniversary of the 2nd Iraq War is a beautifully ironic bonus to this mess.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

“…imposed sanctions on Russia and sent military aid to Ukraine: the UK, US, Canada, Britain, Australia, South Korea, Japan and the EU…”

It’s good to know both the UK and Britain have provided aid to Ukraine. I would however caution any readers that they might want to reconsider if they were, perchance, thinking of employing the author in an accountancy capacity because basic accuracy doesn’t seem to be his strong suit, and you know, double-counting doesn’t always go down too well with the tax authorities.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

The old Britain/United Kingdom thing again……You do know they are not the same? haha…saying them both is not repeating yourself……technically…

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

The article was wrong to say Britain and the UK. The others are just teasing you. For reference, the one Americans get wrong is between England and the UK. People from England get this wrong as well.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I grew up with England,Scotland and Wales, the rest was referred to as the continent.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I worked for many years for a US company – redneck country. First question, “Where exactly are you from?” Wales. “That’s in the west of England, right?”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I grew up with England,Scotland and Wales, the rest was referred to as the continent.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I worked for many years for a US company – redneck country. First question, “Where exactly are you from?” Wales. “That’s in the west of England, right?”

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

All I want to say about this idiocy is that there’s a much larger “starvation of information” in Russia and China.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

The article was wrong to say Britain and the UK. The others are just teasing you. For reference, the one Americans get wrong is between England and the UK. People from England get this wrong as well.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

All I want to say about this idiocy is that there’s a much larger “starvation of information” in Russia and China.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

But I heard that Britain hadn’t provided as many tanks as the UK.
True?

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Absolutely! The UK is a pretty reliable and faithfull ally, but Britain is a total freeloader.

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

I knew it!
Americans always knew what “the British are coming!” meant.
Thank God there is the UK to keep us safe from those awful British!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

I knew it!
Americans always knew what “the British are coming!” meant.
Thank God there is the UK to keep us safe from those awful British!

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Absolutely! The UK is a pretty reliable and faithfull ally, but Britain is a total freeloader.

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Besides double-counting the UK, the author omitted non-EU Norway and Switzerland. Even Serbia has recently voiced some unkind words toward Russia.
The describes these countries as “directly under the US sphere of influence”, but one might also characterize them as rich, democratic, and worried about the threat from Russia and/or China. The US and UK signed the Budapest Memorandum–it’s quite understandable that poor countries far from the conflict have other priorities.
Me, I’ll trust the Finns on this one.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Cobb

The Finns, the Swedes, the Poles and the Baltics.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Cobb

“Ths sphere…the sphere!
The dreaded sphere!”

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Searching the web reveals a surprising number of dreaded spheres, but Captain Isotope seems most likely and is now on my radar (or rather long-range scanners).

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Searching the web reveals a surprising number of dreaded spheres, but Captain Isotope seems most likely and is now on my radar (or rather long-range scanners).

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Cobb

The Finns, the Swedes, the Poles and the Baltics.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Cobb

“Ths sphere…the sphere!
The dreaded sphere!”

Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Touché for the bean-counters!

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

The old Britain/United Kingdom thing again……You do know they are not the same? haha…saying them both is not repeating yourself……technically…

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

But I heard that Britain hadn’t provided as many tanks as the UK.
True?

Steve Cobb
Steve Cobb
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Besides double-counting the UK, the author omitted non-EU Norway and Switzerland. Even Serbia has recently voiced some unkind words toward Russia.
The describes these countries as “directly under the US sphere of influence”, but one might also characterize them as rich, democratic, and worried about the threat from Russia and/or China. The US and UK signed the Budapest Memorandum–it’s quite understandable that poor countries far from the conflict have other priorities.
Me, I’ll trust the Finns on this one.

Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Touché for the bean-counters!

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

“…imposed sanctions on Russia and sent military aid to Ukraine: the UK, US, Canada, Britain, Australia, South Korea, Japan and the EU…”

It’s good to know both the UK and Britain have provided aid to Ukraine. I would however caution any readers that they might want to reconsider if they were, perchance, thinking of employing the author in an accountancy capacity because basic accuracy doesn’t seem to be his strong suit, and you know, double-counting doesn’t always go down too well with the tax authorities.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

There is clearly quite a bit of truth in Thomas Fazi’s arguments, and indeed the West needs to sort out much of its own governance, polarisation and economic inequality and those kind of issues. Still I’d rather live here that I would in China or Russia and indeed it seems a lot of the world’s population think the same thing.

However we are often naïve when we talk about the the developing World in this slightly rose-tinted way. I’m reminded of attending a film recently at the London film festival wear where about the Ugandan musician and activist and politician Bobi Wine in which the exiled Ugandans in the audience were begging Britain not to give £50 bn to Uganda for roads projects because to quote “the money will be stolen”.

So these are some of the countries that of course don’t care one way or another about Russia and Ukraine because their politicians cynically maintain power using corruption, repression and violence at every turn. They aren’t all that bothered about their own citizens’ welfare, let alone those of another distant country.

I can’t expect India to severely damage its economy by turning down oil supplies from Russia. I’m not even sure I object to China brokering a deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Clearly whatever we think of the government in China it’s going to be with us for a long time and we have to exist on the same planet. However the loss of Taiwan just on pure social welfare grounds would be an absolute tragedy for humanity. Here is a thriving democratic society very like South Korea that was protected from communist aggression by Western intervention.

There simply isn’t a comparison between recent Western “aggression” and Russian, however disastrous some of the former policies may have been, even in their own terms, and how cynical some of the manipulations were in getting public support for them as in Iraq war. Western countries were not intending to conquer other countries. People like Tony Blair, endlessly excoriated today, George W Bush and the neocons actually believed that liberal democracy and freely chosen governments of those peoples would be a good outcome in itself and probably help make those countries friendly allies and associates of the West. When you look at the post World War 2 histories Western Europe, Japan, South Korea Australasia and North America, are their views entirely misguided?

The west fundamentally has had a “progressive” attitude to the world – for good and ill – and endlessly has an itch to make the world a “better place”. this includes many of its citizens who give to charity, campaign etc. The ‘woke’ are an extreme and probably malevolent demonstration of this tendency, but liberals and even conservatives are not immune from this tendency. I think the extent that the west can successfully do this has been proved to be limited, especially in countries like Afghanistan and that we should be much less hubristic. And short-term military attacks are very unlikely to achieve the desired ends; to do so would probably require rebuilding the British or American empires and long-term intervention over say 100 years which simply isn’t going to happen. Let’s also learn lessons about former great powers feel humiliated like Russia after the collapse of the Cold War.

But Thomas Fazi’s writings on foreign affairs often seem to be dominated by his own political disagreements with its domestic direction of travel (as so many others’ also are). He objects to the West’s arming the Ukraine. The adoption of this policy would lead fairly quickly to Ukrainian collapse and conquest by Russia. Would Yoweri Museveni of Uganda or the cynical leaders of Saudi Arabia or Iran care about this – no they wouldn’t. Apart from anything else they wouldn’t be taking any of the millions of refugees who would be leaving that country. However whatever the faults of recent Western policies towards Russia, that would be a complete disaster for 40 million people in Ukraine or most of them – and indeed for the future stability and peace in Eastern Europe.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Any “deal” or agreement made with Iran is completely a waste of time. Have they ever lived up to anything agreed to in the last 2000 years? How many “peace agreements” have been made in the Middle East during the last 40 years? Yet no peace.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Any “deal” or agreement made with Iran is completely a waste of time. Have they ever lived up to anything agreed to in the last 2000 years? How many “peace agreements” have been made in the Middle East during the last 40 years? Yet no peace.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

There is clearly quite a bit of truth in Thomas Fazi’s arguments, and indeed the West needs to sort out much of its own governance, polarisation and economic inequality and those kind of issues. Still I’d rather live here that I would in China or Russia and indeed it seems a lot of the world’s population think the same thing.

However we are often naïve when we talk about the the developing World in this slightly rose-tinted way. I’m reminded of attending a film recently at the London film festival wear where about the Ugandan musician and activist and politician Bobi Wine in which the exiled Ugandans in the audience were begging Britain not to give £50 bn to Uganda for roads projects because to quote “the money will be stolen”.

So these are some of the countries that of course don’t care one way or another about Russia and Ukraine because their politicians cynically maintain power using corruption, repression and violence at every turn. They aren’t all that bothered about their own citizens’ welfare, let alone those of another distant country.

I can’t expect India to severely damage its economy by turning down oil supplies from Russia. I’m not even sure I object to China brokering a deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia. Clearly whatever we think of the government in China it’s going to be with us for a long time and we have to exist on the same planet. However the loss of Taiwan just on pure social welfare grounds would be an absolute tragedy for humanity. Here is a thriving democratic society very like South Korea that was protected from communist aggression by Western intervention.

There simply isn’t a comparison between recent Western “aggression” and Russian, however disastrous some of the former policies may have been, even in their own terms, and how cynical some of the manipulations were in getting public support for them as in Iraq war. Western countries were not intending to conquer other countries. People like Tony Blair, endlessly excoriated today, George W Bush and the neocons actually believed that liberal democracy and freely chosen governments of those peoples would be a good outcome in itself and probably help make those countries friendly allies and associates of the West. When you look at the post World War 2 histories Western Europe, Japan, South Korea Australasia and North America, are their views entirely misguided?

The west fundamentally has had a “progressive” attitude to the world – for good and ill – and endlessly has an itch to make the world a “better place”. this includes many of its citizens who give to charity, campaign etc. The ‘woke’ are an extreme and probably malevolent demonstration of this tendency, but liberals and even conservatives are not immune from this tendency. I think the extent that the west can successfully do this has been proved to be limited, especially in countries like Afghanistan and that we should be much less hubristic. And short-term military attacks are very unlikely to achieve the desired ends; to do so would probably require rebuilding the British or American empires and long-term intervention over say 100 years which simply isn’t going to happen. Let’s also learn lessons about former great powers feel humiliated like Russia after the collapse of the Cold War.

But Thomas Fazi’s writings on foreign affairs often seem to be dominated by his own political disagreements with its domestic direction of travel (as so many others’ also are). He objects to the West’s arming the Ukraine. The adoption of this policy would lead fairly quickly to Ukrainian collapse and conquest by Russia. Would Yoweri Museveni of Uganda or the cynical leaders of Saudi Arabia or Iran care about this – no they wouldn’t. Apart from anything else they wouldn’t be taking any of the millions of refugees who would be leaving that country. However whatever the faults of recent Western policies towards Russia, that would be a complete disaster for 40 million people in Ukraine or most of them – and indeed for the future stability and peace in Eastern Europe.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Hugh Marcus
Hugh Marcus
1 year ago

While the author does raise some interesting ideas in this article, it’s clearly an opinion piece & therefore shouldn’t be taken as fact.
The statement towards the end that ‘Ukraine is taking heavy losses’ is evidence enough that he’s ignoring basic checkable facts. Yes Ukraine is obviously suffering losses. Every country at war does.
However to ignore the tens of thousands of Russian conscripts & prisoners that are literally being fed as fodder to their front line, shows the bias in his article.

Yes it’s fair to show that Russia & China will do business together (there’s always been countries who’ll ignore western sanctions fir their own benefit)

China will be very reluctant to get involved militarily with Russia while Putin is around. They’re no fools & know he’s a despot.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Marcus

True. Despots recognize each other.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Marcus

True. Despots recognize each other.

Hugh Marcus
Hugh Marcus
1 year ago

While the author does raise some interesting ideas in this article, it’s clearly an opinion piece & therefore shouldn’t be taken as fact.
The statement towards the end that ‘Ukraine is taking heavy losses’ is evidence enough that he’s ignoring basic checkable facts. Yes Ukraine is obviously suffering losses. Every country at war does.
However to ignore the tens of thousands of Russian conscripts & prisoners that are literally being fed as fodder to their front line, shows the bias in his article.

Yes it’s fair to show that Russia & China will do business together (there’s always been countries who’ll ignore western sanctions fir their own benefit)

China will be very reluctant to get involved militarily with Russia while Putin is around. They’re no fools & know he’s a despot.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Given the interdependence of the world today, Fazi’s idea that some “new bloc” would, or could, significantly change the world order is laughable.
Without genuine rule of law, most of these nations will remain poor, and prey to their own corrupt regimes.
Fazi conveniently forgets that all the BRICS (save Russia) are in places where global warming is taking its toll much more than in places like the US and Europe. Their use of Russian oil and gas only exacerbates their problems. Indeed, South Africa is so dysfunctional that it cannot even provide power the whole day.
There are exceptions: Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea. But they have succeeded precisely because they follow the Western model.
Fazi is not alone of course. It has been a cherished dream since the early 1950s: “the third word”/”non-alligned nations”/”developing” world/BRICS et al will “overtake and surpass” the West.
This is usually bandied about the most when there is an economic slow-down in the West. Sadly, fact is: this usually damages non-western nations far more than the West itself.
Indeed, Russia’s tragedy is that, unlike Taiwan or Japan, it has never been able to integrate itself intellectually or economically into the West. The reason is simply: to do so would overturn so much of its culture that it would no longer be the Russia of Ivan the Dread, Peter the Great, Stalin, and now Putin.
But it is precisely this “Stalinist/Orthodox” mind-set that, each day, destroys Russia before our very eyes .

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

“… places where global warming is taking its toll much more than in places like….”

Sounds a bit oxymoronic.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

“… places where global warming is taking its toll much more than in places like….”

Sounds a bit oxymoronic.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Given the interdependence of the world today, Fazi’s idea that some “new bloc” would, or could, significantly change the world order is laughable.
Without genuine rule of law, most of these nations will remain poor, and prey to their own corrupt regimes.
Fazi conveniently forgets that all the BRICS (save Russia) are in places where global warming is taking its toll much more than in places like the US and Europe. Their use of Russian oil and gas only exacerbates their problems. Indeed, South Africa is so dysfunctional that it cannot even provide power the whole day.
There are exceptions: Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea. But they have succeeded precisely because they follow the Western model.
Fazi is not alone of course. It has been a cherished dream since the early 1950s: “the third word”/”non-alligned nations”/”developing” world/BRICS et al will “overtake and surpass” the West.
This is usually bandied about the most when there is an economic slow-down in the West. Sadly, fact is: this usually damages non-western nations far more than the West itself.
Indeed, Russia’s tragedy is that, unlike Taiwan or Japan, it has never been able to integrate itself intellectually or economically into the West. The reason is simply: to do so would overturn so much of its culture that it would no longer be the Russia of Ivan the Dread, Peter the Great, Stalin, and now Putin.
But it is precisely this “Stalinist/Orthodox” mind-set that, each day, destroys Russia before our very eyes .

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

Countries such as Kenya and SA are merely doing what they think is in their self-interest. That’s what we should be doing but instead we’re obsessing about pronouns.
All smaller, less powerful countries have to choose which of the big boys to cosy up to. It’s understandable that many are fed up with US interference and are looking to China. Of course, with our shared Western cultural heritage, we would prefer to be in America’s gang, rather than the Chinese – or Islamic – alternative. And we can see that Chinese influence will be just as, probably more, exploitative. But if we want to change the minds of the Kenyans and others like them, we’ll have to recognise, characterise and appeal to their own interests.
The demise of Western power is not inevitable but that’s the direction in which our liberal elite is currently sleepwalking.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Aiding Ukraine is in our self-interest. But I agree about the stupid pronouns, etc.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

Aiding Ukraine is in our self-interest. But I agree about the stupid pronouns, etc.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

Countries such as Kenya and SA are merely doing what they think is in their self-interest. That’s what we should be doing but instead we’re obsessing about pronouns.
All smaller, less powerful countries have to choose which of the big boys to cosy up to. It’s understandable that many are fed up with US interference and are looking to China. Of course, with our shared Western cultural heritage, we would prefer to be in America’s gang, rather than the Chinese – or Islamic – alternative. And we can see that Chinese influence will be just as, probably more, exploitative. But if we want to change the minds of the Kenyans and others like them, we’ll have to recognise, characterise and appeal to their own interests.
The demise of Western power is not inevitable but that’s the direction in which our liberal elite is currently sleepwalking.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

Has anyone noticed, no one has ever seen Thomas Fazi and Philip Pilkington in the same room together. Prob’ly nothing, just sayin’.

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

This post is Lost on me – sorry.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

He seems to be saying that they are the same person, just appearing in different identities. But since I don’t know who Pilkington is, it’s still a bit above my head.

Wim de Vriend
Wim de Vriend
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

He seems to be saying that they are the same person, just appearing in different identities. But since I don’t know who Pilkington is, it’s still a bit above my head.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

This post is Lost on me – sorry.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
1 year ago

Has anyone noticed, no one has ever seen Thomas Fazi and Philip Pilkington in the same room together. Prob’ly nothing, just sayin’.

Last edited 1 year ago by Prashant Kotak
Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

For me this is simple. If we want to be fair in the world, it is simple. If we truly believe as a country that Russia is an aggressor against another free country, if we truly believe that Putin, as leader of Russia, is a war criminal – then we must prosecute Blair and Bush as war criminals. If we don’t prosecute Blair and Bush we lose the right to have a meaningful opinion in the world.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Change the record already.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Change the record already.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
1 year ago

For me this is simple. If we want to be fair in the world, it is simple. If we truly believe as a country that Russia is an aggressor against another free country, if we truly believe that Putin, as leader of Russia, is a war criminal – then we must prosecute Blair and Bush as war criminals. If we don’t prosecute Blair and Bush we lose the right to have a meaningful opinion in the world.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Great article,this is unherd people,you know where alternative views and opinions can be heard.
Thank you Thomas for writing a more balanced article than the thinly veiled Ukraine propaganda that is so prevalent here

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Great article,this is unherd people,you know where alternative views and opinions can be heard.
Thank you Thomas for writing a more balanced article than the thinly veiled Ukraine propaganda that is so prevalent here

Tony Lee
Tony Lee
1 year ago

How the world economy develops will largely take care of itself, but I think the author’s central point here is valid. The unease about US driven policy and claims to hold the moral high ground are real and present and make the West an easy target for Russia and China. It’s a bit like having a distant relative who wants to lecture you about morality, yet is trying to hit on your wife at the same time. A kind of Clintonesque world where we’re encouraged to do what the US says, not what it does. No one enjoys to be lectured, but that’s all the US has got, since it’s reputation for leading by example is in tatters.

Tony Lee
Tony Lee
1 year ago

How the world economy develops will largely take care of itself, but I think the author’s central point here is valid. The unease about US driven policy and claims to hold the moral high ground are real and present and make the West an easy target for Russia and China. It’s a bit like having a distant relative who wants to lecture you about morality, yet is trying to hit on your wife at the same time. A kind of Clintonesque world where we’re encouraged to do what the US says, not what it does. No one enjoys to be lectured, but that’s all the US has got, since it’s reputation for leading by example is in tatters.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

More delusional nonsense from Fazi. The usual cherry picking of selected facts to attempt to support a pre-determined narrative. And a total failure to see the big picture as it actually is.
To take just one example, to assume that the rapidly failing state of South Africa is a reliable guide to what will happen in the future is absurd. The key thing that all the countries in Fazi’s supposed new order have in common is corruption. None of them are attracting inward migration (no one with a free choice wants to go to live and work in these countriues). They are all politically backward and – China excepted – technologically backward. And much of China’s technology has been copied from the West.
Why is this man still on the payroll ?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

More delusional nonsense from Fazi. The usual cherry picking of selected facts to attempt to support a pre-determined narrative. And a total failure to see the big picture as it actually is.
To take just one example, to assume that the rapidly failing state of South Africa is a reliable guide to what will happen in the future is absurd. The key thing that all the countries in Fazi’s supposed new order have in common is corruption. None of them are attracting inward migration (no one with a free choice wants to go to live and work in these countriues). They are all politically backward and – China excepted – technologically backward. And much of China’s technology has been copied from the West.
Why is this man still on the payroll ?

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago

My goodness the herded in UnHerd are in full copies mode today. Sand, head, buried comes to mind.
“How much evidence is required before it is clear that Western Civilization is empty of integrity, judgment, reason, morality, empathy, compassion, self-awareness, truth, empty of everything that Western Civilization once respected?

All that is left of the West is insouciance and unrestrained evil.”

~Paul Craig Roberts, former Undersecretary Of Treasury, Reagan Administration

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Bit strong but today I can’t be bothered trying to dig their stupid heads out the sand. So have an up vote.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

yes we’re all sheeple and you’re the clever all-seeing one. got it. But with regard to those qualities you list, the West is still far far ahead of any of its so-called competitors, namely China and/or Russia.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Bit strong but today I can’t be bothered trying to dig their stupid heads out the sand. So have an up vote.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

yes we’re all sheeple and you’re the clever all-seeing one. got it. But with regard to those qualities you list, the West is still far far ahead of any of its so-called competitors, namely China and/or Russia.

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago

My goodness the herded in UnHerd are in full copies mode today. Sand, head, buried comes to mind.
“How much evidence is required before it is clear that Western Civilization is empty of integrity, judgment, reason, morality, empathy, compassion, self-awareness, truth, empty of everything that Western Civilization once respected?

All that is left of the West is insouciance and unrestrained evil.”

~Paul Craig Roberts, former Undersecretary Of Treasury, Reagan Administration

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago

The big reckoning will be whether or indeed when the West actively reduces its dependency upon Chinese manufacturing. China remains dependent upon the consumer markets of the west and it is going to take a lot for world’s population to see China as cool or the driver of fashionable consumerism. As regards India, ultimately it seems likely to maintain a non-aligned stance and unlike Pakistan or South Africa (which are economic and political basket cases with limited options) it is highly unlikely to allow itself to become dependent upon China. British imperialism will appear incredibly benign when compared to Chinese exploitation of those populous nations whose indebtedness to China already makes them unwilling to upset their major creditor. The relationship between most third world nations and China is essentially of a transactionary nature and it won’t take long for the world to realise that it is a one-sided affair.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago

The big reckoning will be whether or indeed when the West actively reduces its dependency upon Chinese manufacturing. China remains dependent upon the consumer markets of the west and it is going to take a lot for world’s population to see China as cool or the driver of fashionable consumerism. As regards India, ultimately it seems likely to maintain a non-aligned stance and unlike Pakistan or South Africa (which are economic and political basket cases with limited options) it is highly unlikely to allow itself to become dependent upon China. British imperialism will appear incredibly benign when compared to Chinese exploitation of those populous nations whose indebtedness to China already makes them unwilling to upset their major creditor. The relationship between most third world nations and China is essentially of a transactionary nature and it won’t take long for the world to realise that it is a one-sided affair.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Dewhirst
Justin Clark
Justin Clark
1 year ago

Ahhh a Thomas Fazi article. I bet it’s another West-doing-badly-Russia-China-working-together-blah-blah topic. Rarely disappoints.
Why Russia’s Biggest Threat is Actually China – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iibs7buNwxQ

Justin Clark
Justin Clark
1 year ago

Ahhh a Thomas Fazi article. I bet it’s another West-doing-badly-Russia-China-working-together-blah-blah topic. Rarely disappoints.
Why Russia’s Biggest Threat is Actually China – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iibs7buNwxQ

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The likelihood that the non-West is going to coalesce into some alternate bloc ignores the fact that, ideologically, the non-West is far less united than it was before the Soviet Union’s fall.
Back then, a good part of the world embraced some brand of “socialism.” The USSR could always claim that it, and most of the Third World, were marching toward a “socialist future,” although just what that was, was conveniently left undefined.
Today, with virtually every nation tied into a world-wide capitalist system, there is no coherent ideology around which Russia, China, and the rest can unite. They all embrace some form of capitalism, just like the US and Europe.
The only real difference is that Russia and China’s brand of capitalism is far more corrupt and arbitrary.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The likelihood that the non-West is going to coalesce into some alternate bloc ignores the fact that, ideologically, the non-West is far less united than it was before the Soviet Union’s fall.
Back then, a good part of the world embraced some brand of “socialism.” The USSR could always claim that it, and most of the Third World, were marching toward a “socialist future,” although just what that was, was conveniently left undefined.
Today, with virtually every nation tied into a world-wide capitalist system, there is no coherent ideology around which Russia, China, and the rest can unite. They all embrace some form of capitalism, just like the US and Europe.
The only real difference is that Russia and China’s brand of capitalism is far more corrupt and arbitrary.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago

This wouldn’t have happened if the west did continually shoot itself in the foot.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago

This wouldn’t have happened if the west did continually shoot itself in the foot.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Really interesting article something of which Unherd is gaining a reputation.

I enjoyed the fact based article and am not at all surprised of the prediction that The USA will – perhaps sooner than later – lose its first nation status.

This is all the more reason for UK/USA and their Allies (plus hopefully converted future allies – India?) should stick together.

NO! i do not mean to join (re-join!) some unelected dictator block but through an expanded and more inclusive NATO style organisation – club together against the forthcoming combined power of China and Russia.

China is a bully – ask any South China Sea country – Russia is a (toothless?) bully – see Ukraine. (Excepting Nuclear obviously) – there has to be a sensible balance of power. The USA is simply not capable of defending everything and nor should be be expected to.

This will be a very bitter pill for The USA to follow – but they must face the Truth. Sooner rather than later.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Justin Clark
Justin Clark
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

which is why Russia must be defeated in Ukraine… brought then into an alliance with the West. If Russia is successful, China is encouraged.

Jake Dee
Jake Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Justin Clark

I would be very curious to know what you think the West would be willing and able to give Russia in order for such an alliance to happen.
Simple logic dictates that a new deal would have to be better than the old one. Much better in fact since the current Beijing-Moscow axis not only provides hundreds of billions of dollars in trade, military and diplomatic alignment but also security across their very long and sparsely populated border

Jake Dee
Jake Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Justin Clark

I would be very curious to know what you think the West would be willing and able to give Russia in order for such an alliance to happen.
Simple logic dictates that a new deal would have to be better than the old one. Much better in fact since the current Beijing-Moscow axis not only provides hundreds of billions of dollars in trade, military and diplomatic alignment but also security across their very long and sparsely populated border

Justin Clark
Justin Clark
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

which is why Russia must be defeated in Ukraine… brought then into an alliance with the West. If Russia is successful, China is encouraged.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Really interesting article something of which Unherd is gaining a reputation.

I enjoyed the fact based article and am not at all surprised of the prediction that The USA will – perhaps sooner than later – lose its first nation status.

This is all the more reason for UK/USA and their Allies (plus hopefully converted future allies – India?) should stick together.

NO! i do not mean to join (re-join!) some unelected dictator block but through an expanded and more inclusive NATO style organisation – club together against the forthcoming combined power of China and Russia.

China is a bully – ask any South China Sea country – Russia is a (toothless?) bully – see Ukraine. (Excepting Nuclear obviously) – there has to be a sensible balance of power. The USA is simply not capable of defending everything and nor should be be expected to.

This will be a very bitter pill for The USA to follow – but they must face the Truth. Sooner rather than later.

Last edited 1 year ago by rob drummond
Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
1 year ago

Not according to leading Chinese commentator Shiping Tang, as translated by Zichen Wang:

“The overall distribution of power within the international system will not change drastically in the next decade. The US will remain the largest economy. Europe’s core economic status will not be fundamentally shaken, but Ukraine’s post-conflict reconstruction will impose considerable pressure on Europe. Since the outbreak of the Russia-Ukraine conflict in 2022, Russia’s strength has been greatly weakened and its image tarnished, while its influence in Central Asia and Central and Eastern European countries has drastically dwindled. Although Russia remains an important strategic partner of China, the China-Russia strategic partnership surely faces growing challenges.”

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
1 year ago

Not according to leading Chinese commentator Shiping Tang, as translated by Zichen Wang:

“The overall distribution of power within the international system will not change drastically in the next decade. The US will remain the largest economy. Europe’s core economic status will not be fundamentally shaken, but Ukraine’s post-conflict reconstruction will impose considerable pressure on Europe. Since the outbreak of the Russia-Ukraine conflict in 2022, Russia’s strength has been greatly weakened and its image tarnished, while its influence in Central Asia and Central and Eastern European countries has drastically dwindled. Although Russia remains an important strategic partner of China, the China-Russia strategic partnership surely faces growing challenges.”

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

Excellent article making many good – and worrying – points.

Although I still have faith in the attraction of democratic liberty, it does look as if the non-Westernised majority of the planet is serious about finding alternatives to it – at least, the political establishments of the various nations under discussion are serious about it. The main one, China, has of course been busy building an authoritarian market economy in which Chinese people can effectively become as rich as they like as long as they do nothing to oppose the CCP. Putin’s Russia is also trying something similarly anti-democratic (with markedly less success), and even India seems to have decided that democracy, or at least the West’s version of it, doesn’t hold all that much attraction.

But that’s the collective attitude of those in power, and they’re in power in nations that have never reached the advanced living standards the West regards as normal, so it’s an open question whether authoritarian power can persist in a society with GDP/capita at Western levels. This doesn’t mean, of course, that the West’s hegemony is secure, because the 5/6 of the planet that is non-Western can put up a colossal degree of resistance to the Western-led order without ever being as wealthy. The question is, will it? I say the main issue is that as long as the democratic West provides the most wealth and liberty to its citizens out of the various alternative forms of government, it will remain the ambition of non-Westerners to become like Westerners. And I do not believe that it is possible for authoritarian government to coexist with the market mechanisms that produce Western GDP/capita, so alternative approaches to wealth creation will not succeed sufficiently well.

Of course, all this is speculative and arguably even wishful thinking on my part, and even if I’m right we might end up having a third world war before the point is proven anyway, so I’m certainly not saying its good news yet. And I certainly take the side of any non-Western nation that’s irritated at the presumption of authority on the part of the West when such nations have to listen to Western activists and policymakers telling the rest of the world that the planet can’t afford Western living standards for everyone – this, alone, makes a mockery of any attempt at global statecraft on the part of anyone peddling such a line of argument.

My point here I suppose is that it still matters which bloc holds the record to date for the best human outcomes. It’s the West – hands down and without even any close runners-up. I believe that still matters and I believe that none of the alternative approaches presently available will match it.

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago

Excellent article making many good – and worrying – points.

Although I still have faith in the attraction of democratic liberty, it does look as if the non-Westernised majority of the planet is serious about finding alternatives to it – at least, the political establishments of the various nations under discussion are serious about it. The main one, China, has of course been busy building an authoritarian market economy in which Chinese people can effectively become as rich as they like as long as they do nothing to oppose the CCP. Putin’s Russia is also trying something similarly anti-democratic (with markedly less success), and even India seems to have decided that democracy, or at least the West’s version of it, doesn’t hold all that much attraction.

But that’s the collective attitude of those in power, and they’re in power in nations that have never reached the advanced living standards the West regards as normal, so it’s an open question whether authoritarian power can persist in a society with GDP/capita at Western levels. This doesn’t mean, of course, that the West’s hegemony is secure, because the 5/6 of the planet that is non-Western can put up a colossal degree of resistance to the Western-led order without ever being as wealthy. The question is, will it? I say the main issue is that as long as the democratic West provides the most wealth and liberty to its citizens out of the various alternative forms of government, it will remain the ambition of non-Westerners to become like Westerners. And I do not believe that it is possible for authoritarian government to coexist with the market mechanisms that produce Western GDP/capita, so alternative approaches to wealth creation will not succeed sufficiently well.

Of course, all this is speculative and arguably even wishful thinking on my part, and even if I’m right we might end up having a third world war before the point is proven anyway, so I’m certainly not saying its good news yet. And I certainly take the side of any non-Western nation that’s irritated at the presumption of authority on the part of the West when such nations have to listen to Western activists and policymakers telling the rest of the world that the planet can’t afford Western living standards for everyone – this, alone, makes a mockery of any attempt at global statecraft on the part of anyone peddling such a line of argument.

My point here I suppose is that it still matters which bloc holds the record to date for the best human outcomes. It’s the West – hands down and without even any close runners-up. I believe that still matters and I believe that none of the alternative approaches presently available will match it.

B Timothy
B Timothy
1 year ago

The anti-Kissinger strategy:

“Force Russia and China as close together as possible!”

B Timothy
B Timothy
1 year ago

The anti-Kissinger strategy:

“Force Russia and China as close together as possible!”

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago

Against strong competition, this has to be one of the daftest articles I have read on Unherd in the last few weeks 😀

David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago

Want to explain what you disagree with, and on what bases?

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Please do let us know why.
Many thanks

David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago

Want to explain what you disagree with, and on what bases?

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago

Please do let us know why.
Many thanks

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago

Against strong competition, this has to be one of the daftest articles I have read on Unherd in the last few weeks 😀

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago

I normally have quite a lot of time for what this author writes, despite being of a very different political persuasion to his. On this occasion however I think he has produced a mainly politically slanted piece, using the most tenuous logic including some complete non-sequitors. A shame.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
1 year ago

I normally have quite a lot of time for what this author writes, despite being of a very different political persuasion to his. On this occasion however I think he has produced a mainly politically slanted piece, using the most tenuous logic including some complete non-sequitors. A shame.

Sophy T
Sophy T
1 year ago

Many non-Westerners feel that the US is in no position to lecture other countries about the sanctity of sovereignty, territorial integrity, international law and the so-called rules-based order
I don’t think it will stop them lecturing anyone whether the lecturee cares or not.
I read an article recently in an American publication about Korea and how behind the times is Korea with regard to single parenthood, feminism etc., but, said the author, hopefully things are changing there.
These Western liberals are of one view only: ours is the way and the truth and let no one disagree.
Maybe a Korean should write an article pointing out the state of affairs re crime, drugs, homelessness etc in liberal California.

Sophy T
Sophy T
1 year ago

Many non-Westerners feel that the US is in no position to lecture other countries about the sanctity of sovereignty, territorial integrity, international law and the so-called rules-based order
I don’t think it will stop them lecturing anyone whether the lecturee cares or not.
I read an article recently in an American publication about Korea and how behind the times is Korea with regard to single parenthood, feminism etc., but, said the author, hopefully things are changing there.
These Western liberals are of one view only: ours is the way and the truth and let no one disagree.
Maybe a Korean should write an article pointing out the state of affairs re crime, drugs, homelessness etc in liberal California.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago

Yep. Hope to see you in Italy.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago

Or not, as the case may be.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

Nuclear weapons and ” islamophobia accusation” have the same frightening power…..Paralysing fear of action in case either are used. The only difference is no one has yet used nuclear weapons since 1945, and Islamophobia accusation does not need a single shot fired, and is far more effective weapon.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The logic of this article:
By invading Iraq, George Bush foolishly lost US dominance.
Ergo:
Putin’s even more disastrous invasion of Ukraine will gain Russia and China world dominance.
Bravo, Mr. Fazi, bravo!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The logic of this article:
By invading Iraq, George Bush foolishly lost US dominance.
Ergo:
Putin’s even more disastrous invasion of Ukraine will gain Russia and China world dominance.
Bravo, Mr. Fazi, bravo!

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago

Demography – collapse in both countries. USA/MEXICO/CANADA – the only sphere insulated from that for a while.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago

Demography – collapse in both countries. USA/MEXICO/CANADA – the only sphere insulated from that for a while.

Daniel Britten
Daniel Britten
1 year ago

I know Ukrainians in the east of the country who support Putin’s invasion and see the Ukrainian government as oppressive. One said to me that her grandmother, who is Russian speaker, was forced to speak Ukrainian by the government. It’s quite possible that if there had been a genuine referendum in the east, the majority of the population would have voted for Russia. I’m sure that this narrative is what is being told to anti-Western countries, and that the Western media doesn’t understand this.

Nevertheless, this is a strangely pessimistic article, because the fact is that Putin has invaded a sovereign country and both Russia and China are dictatorships which have no respect for the rule of international law. To be sure, America has sometimes ignored that law, but the same can’t be said for Europe, which often goes its own way. So even if he were correct, and there are many reasons why he isn’t, he offers no solutions or alternatives, unless he supports non-western autocracy. What is the point of such a rant? It isn’t clear at all.

Last edited 1 year ago by Daniel Britten
Daniel Britten
Daniel Britten
1 year ago

I know Ukrainians in the east of the country who support Putin’s invasion and see the Ukrainian government as oppressive. One said to me that her grandmother, who is Russian speaker, was forced to speak Ukrainian by the government. It’s quite possible that if there had been a genuine referendum in the east, the majority of the population would have voted for Russia. I’m sure that this narrative is what is being told to anti-Western countries, and that the Western media doesn’t understand this.

Nevertheless, this is a strangely pessimistic article, because the fact is that Putin has invaded a sovereign country and both Russia and China are dictatorships which have no respect for the rule of international law. To be sure, America has sometimes ignored that law, but the same can’t be said for Europe, which often goes its own way. So even if he were correct, and there are many reasons why he isn’t, he offers no solutions or alternatives, unless he supports non-western autocracy. What is the point of such a rant? It isn’t clear at all.

Last edited 1 year ago by Daniel Britten
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

I have just read the first two paragraphs and already I know the author is a loon. I thought the headline itself was silly (Russia, overtaking the west? come on), but I thought, it could just be the headline writer getting it wrong. No. The author relies on the population of countries to come to the conclusion that “the world” isn’t in favour of sanctioning Russia, which isn’t a useful metric, particularly when the country with the largest population is a totalitarian state run by a power-mad dictator, much like Russia itself.

But the second paragraph is worse. Not only are other Western countries in the American “sphere of influence”; apparently, because some still have American bases, the author believes they are forced to be in lockstep with American foreign policy initiatives. No, author. That would be the countries in Russia and China’s sphere of influence, including two countries you cited in the first paragraph as having abstained from the UN vote — namely Pakistan and South Africa.
I’ll read the rest later, but I’m not looking forward to the prospect.

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

But Putin invaded Ukraine!
Don’t invasions of foreign countries always make you stronger?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

But Putin invaded Ukraine!
Don’t invasions of foreign countries always make you stronger?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

I have just read the first two paragraphs and already I know the author is a loon. I thought the headline itself was silly (Russia, overtaking the west? come on), but I thought, it could just be the headline writer getting it wrong. No. The author relies on the population of countries to come to the conclusion that “the world” isn’t in favour of sanctioning Russia, which isn’t a useful metric, particularly when the country with the largest population is a totalitarian state run by a power-mad dictator, much like Russia itself.

But the second paragraph is worse. Not only are other Western countries in the American “sphere of influence”; apparently, because some still have American bases, the author believes they are forced to be in lockstep with American foreign policy initiatives. No, author. That would be the countries in Russia and China’s sphere of influence, including two countries you cited in the first paragraph as having abstained from the UN vote — namely Pakistan and South Africa.
I’ll read the rest later, but I’m not looking forward to the prospect.

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Sadly, the BRICS in this New World Order seem ready to arrest one of its head–Putin.
This NWO meme is the shortest one on record.
“Sic semper insanus…”

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Sadly, the BRICS in this New World Order seem ready to arrest one of its head–Putin.
This NWO meme is the shortest one on record.
“Sic semper insanus…”

Ed Boyce
Ed Boyce
1 year ago

I wonder how much is the author’s financial benefit for being a naked shill for Russia and China? Does anyone know if the author is a communist or is he just a communist sympathizers?

Ed Boyce
Ed Boyce
1 year ago

I wonder how much is the author’s financial benefit for being a naked shill for Russia and China? Does anyone know if the author is a communist or is he just a communist sympathizers?

Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
1 year ago

Obvious propaganda piece ordered by chinese goverment. But I guess dreaming is free…

Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
1 year ago

Obvious propaganda piece ordered by chinese goverment. But I guess dreaming is free…

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

I thought you were pretty pro the whole scene back last year, or at least not against it. I have been 100%, virulently, against the West getting involved in any way – from before it started as it was so totally obviously evil and F_c*ed up. That this wicked Proxy WWIII was obviously using Ukraine as the chessboard for some weird game which had Nothing to do with Freedom – and that was going to leave a million Ukrainians dead, 12 Million refugees to never come back – and COMPLETELY Destroy Ukraine – for no good; as the end will be the same conditions with a Russian Peace Treaty as before it began – but with obscene wastage.
Then on top global famine, global depression, and an Axis Powers arising where none existed; to oppose these Biden-Boris Allies. Then the breaking of global supply chains, the coming of a new trade currency bankrupting USA by taking some Reserve and Petro $ status. And Many other wicked and evil effects. Germany de-industrializing, and all Europe going into depression, UK going bust….

Also Fazi – why link the Telegraph for word on the high Losses Ukraine has. The Telegraph is 100% pro war, they are Zelenski-Biden’s biggest cheerleaders. The numbers you link to in their agenda rag is off by a power of 8 on one side!

Try Colonel MacGregor and Ritter. They say 30,000 Russians dead. 240,000 Ukrainian dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! * 8 to 1 more Ukrainians dead to each Russian – watch the video, forget the Telegraph’s numbers of Parity – watch MacGregor

”Col. Macgregor: Ukraine is CRUMBLING Under Putin’s Military Offensive”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwIc4cPWdEs

You did not even mention Iran and KSA………

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Only MacGregor and Ritter must be correct–because even pro-war Russians complain about Russia’s high losses and lack of progress on the ground. Strelkov/Girkin thinks the war is already lost.
Ergo, just like the Telegraph, the pro-war Russian bloggers are…in the pay of the West !!!
I am dumbfounded at this turn of events…
Fazi needs to get on the case!

David Loneragan
David Loneragan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

This essay is going to put all you Unherd reformed leftists in a real quandary.
Someone has intruded on your complacent view of the world. You are going to have to decide: either you keep going with the label you are known by, i.e. the pro war left, OR you will look at what’s happening right now, in the world, and try to understand actual role of the US/NATO/Russia/China/the BRICS nations, in the world, a world that is now changing before your very eyes, and you don’t even realise it. You supported bombing former Yugoslavia, the destruction of Iraq, the total destruction of Libya (a Hilary Clinton/EU operation), the attempted destruction of Syria etc. You haven’t opposed a war since ‘Nam, over 40 years ago. You hate Putin, you believe he is another Hitler, you believe ludicrous stories about him, like MH17, Scipral, the Nordstream pipeline, he wants to take over Eastern Europe, he’s corrupt, he hates gays, on and on. None of you are going to talk about what happened in 2014 in Ukraine, the Minsk agreements, Victoria Nuland (who’s she??), or the fact that 15k people died in the Donbass in the 6 years leading to the Russian invasion, at the hands of the UKR army or the the Azov battalions. And none of you will ever look at the end of US dollar hegemony, as Thomas Fazi is telling you in the article, until it happens, with incalculable consequences, for the West.
“The author appears to be drawing some incredibly long bows here….”
“It’s good to know both the UK and Britain have provided aid to Ukraine…”
 “While the author does raise some interesting ideas in this article…”
–When I hear this stuff, it makes me want to reach for my revolver
My apologies for the rant–I expect a minimum of 20 down votes for this.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The old chestnut that “15k people died in the Donbass” actually ingeniously conflates all the deaths in the actual war, with a much smaller number of civilian deaths on both sides from 2015-2022, due to mutual shelling.
And Maidan wasn’t a “coup.”
Yanukovich’s govt fell only because he ordered 100 protesters shot, and then rightly understood that, if he stuck around, he would be tried and convicted.
The members of the Rada–to include many from his own party–then chose a new president.
See how clear things are when you stop thinking like a Russian, and start using evidence-based thinking?
And how much less space Truth actually needs to make its case?

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yes everything is wonderfully clear when you avoid trying to think about a complex situation from both sides. And if any inconvenient facts intrude on your clear-eyed vision you can dismiss them as, what, maybe liars, fake news, trolls?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

There’s nothing particularly complex about Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. It was unprovoked, and luckily, it failed miserably.
The surrounding countries don’t think there’s anything particularly complex about the situation either. Perhaps it’s you who is overthinking it.

David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

OK, maybe read this then tell me there’s nothing complex and it was totally unprovoked (this is the word all US spokespeople are ordered to use to describe the war. In other countries the word is ‘illegal’, but likewise they are ordered to repeat it). I’d be interested to hear what you think.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/24/vladimir-putin-invade-ukraine-2022-russia

Last edited 1 year ago by David Clancy
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

So as the article says, he never thought of Ukraine as a real country, he annexed Crimea and fomented rebellion in the Donbass, and then launched an unprovoked attack on Ukraine. Yes, unprovoked. If you think being unable to split the Americans and Europeans qualifies as a provocation to invade Ukraine, well there’s nothing more to say.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

So as the article says, he never thought of Ukraine as a real country, he annexed Crimea and fomented rebellion in the Donbass, and then launched an unprovoked attack on Ukraine. Yes, unprovoked. If you think being unable to split the Americans and Europeans qualifies as a provocation to invade Ukraine, well there’s nothing more to say.

David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago
Reply to  harry storm

OK, maybe read this then tell me there’s nothing complex and it was totally unprovoked (this is the word all US spokespeople are ordered to use to describe the war. In other countries the word is ‘illegal’, but likewise they are ordered to repeat it). I’d be interested to hear what you think.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/24/vladimir-putin-invade-ukraine-2022-russia

Last edited 1 year ago by David Clancy
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

Don’t facts have to be …verifiable?
What MacGregor and Ritter post isn’t even verified by pro-war Russians.
But perhaps they go into a trance, and Reality then appears?

David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

which facts in the article were not verifiable? FWIW I don’t even know who McGregor and Ritter are.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

And If I were you I’d keep it that way.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

And If I were you I’d keep it that way.

David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

which facts in the article were not verifiable? FWIW I don’t even know who McGregor and Ritter are.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

There’s nothing particularly complex about Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. It was unprovoked, and luckily, it failed miserably.
The surrounding countries don’t think there’s anything particularly complex about the situation either. Perhaps it’s you who is overthinking it.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  David Clancy

Don’t facts have to be …verifiable?
What MacGregor and Ritter post isn’t even verified by pro-war Russians.
But perhaps they go into a trance, and Reality then appears?

David Clancy
David Clancy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yes everything is wonderfully clear when you avoid trying to think about a complex situation from both sides. And if any inconvenient facts intrude on your clear-eyed vision you can dismiss them as, what, maybe liars, fake news, trolls?

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

I only know what’s on record: Ukraine isn’t a real country; I want to recreate the Russian Empire; and of course, Finland and Sweden’s turn from neutrality to joining NATO for fear of Putin. And if you don’t think Putin poisons his enemies, there’s this lovely bridge I can sell you……

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The old chestnut that “15k people died in the Donbass” actually ingeniously conflates all the deaths in the actual war, with a much smaller number of civilian deaths on both sides from 2015-2022, due to mutual shelling.
And Maidan wasn’t a “coup.”
Yanukovich’s govt fell only because he ordered 100 protesters shot, and then rightly understood that, if he stuck around, he would be tried and convicted.
The members of the Rada–to include many from his own party–then chose a new president.
See how clear things are when you stop thinking like a Russian, and start using evidence-based thinking?
And how much less space Truth actually needs to make its case?

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago

I only know what’s on record: Ukraine isn’t a real country; I want to recreate the Russian Empire; and of course, Finland and Sweden’s turn from neutrality to joining NATO for fear of Putin. And if you don’t think Putin poisons his enemies, there’s this lovely bridge I can sell you……

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I believe you’ve read far too much from that paid propagandist.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Only MacGregor and Ritter must be correct–because even pro-war Russians complain about Russia’s high losses and lack of progress on the ground. Strelkov/Girkin thinks the war is already lost.
Ergo, just like the Telegraph, the pro-war Russian bloggers are…in the pay of the West !!!
I am dumbfounded at this turn of events…
Fazi needs to get on the case!

David Loneragan
David Loneragan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

This essay is going to put all you Unherd reformed leftists in a real quandary.
Someone has intruded on your complacent view of the world. You are going to have to decide: either you keep going with the label you are known by, i.e. the pro war left, OR you will look at what’s happening right now, in the world, and try to understand actual role of the US/NATO/Russia/China/the BRICS nations, in the world, a world that is now changing before your very eyes, and you don’t even realise it. You supported bombing former Yugoslavia, the destruction of Iraq, the total destruction of Libya (a Hilary Clinton/EU operation), the attempted destruction of Syria etc. You haven’t opposed a war since ‘Nam, over 40 years ago. You hate Putin, you believe he is another Hitler, you believe ludicrous stories about him, like MH17, Scipral, the Nordstream pipeline, he wants to take over Eastern Europe, he’s corrupt, he hates gays, on and on. None of you are going to talk about what happened in 2014 in Ukraine, the Minsk agreements, Victoria Nuland (who’s she??), or the fact that 15k people died in the Donbass in the 6 years leading to the Russian invasion, at the hands of the UKR army or the the Azov battalions. And none of you will ever look at the end of US dollar hegemony, as Thomas Fazi is telling you in the article, until it happens, with incalculable consequences, for the West.
“The author appears to be drawing some incredibly long bows here….”
“It’s good to know both the UK and Britain have provided aid to Ukraine…”
 “While the author does raise some interesting ideas in this article…”
–When I hear this stuff, it makes me want to reach for my revolver
My apologies for the rant–I expect a minimum of 20 down votes for this.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I believe you’ve read far too much from that paid propagandist.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

I thought you were pretty pro the whole scene back last year, or at least not against it. I have been 100%, virulently, against the West getting involved in any way – from before it started as it was so totally obviously evil and F_c*ed up. That this wicked Proxy WWIII was obviously using Ukraine as the chessboard for some weird game which had Nothing to do with Freedom – and that was going to leave a million Ukrainians dead, 12 Million refugees to never come back – and COMPLETELY Destroy Ukraine – for no good; as the end will be the same conditions with a Russian Peace Treaty as before it began – but with obscene wastage.
Then on top global famine, global depression, and an Axis Powers arising where none existed; to oppose these Biden-Boris Allies. Then the breaking of global supply chains, the coming of a new trade currency bankrupting USA by taking some Reserve and Petro $ status. And Many other wicked and evil effects. Germany de-industrializing, and all Europe going into depression, UK going bust….

Also Fazi – why link the Telegraph for word on the high Losses Ukraine has. The Telegraph is 100% pro war, they are Zelenski-Biden’s biggest cheerleaders. The numbers you link to in their agenda rag is off by a power of 8 on one side!

Try Colonel MacGregor and Ritter. They say 30,000 Russians dead. 240,000 Ukrainian dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! * 8 to 1 more Ukrainians dead to each Russian – watch the video, forget the Telegraph’s numbers of Parity – watch MacGregor

”Col. Macgregor: Ukraine is CRUMBLING Under Putin’s Military Offensive”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwIc4cPWdEs

You did not even mention Iran and KSA………