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We are already at war with Russia Never-ending escalation will result in catastrophe

Are they looking where he's going? (Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images)

Are they looking where he's going? (Chip Somodevilla/Getty Images)


February 8, 2023   6 mins

Now and then, even the most seasoned politician happens to slip up and accidently speak the truth. This is what occurred during a recent debate at the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, when the German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock openly stated that “we are fighting a war against Russia”. The German government was quick to say her words had been “misinterpreted”, but the truth is that she did nothing more than say it how it is.

Almost a year into the conflict, the narrative of Western intervention in Ukraine — that “Nato is not at war with Russia” and that “the equipment we’re providing is purely defensive” — is being revealed for what it always was: a fiction. Last month, at Ramstein Air Base in Germany, another kernel of truth slipped through the cracks at a briefing by US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley. Austin and Miller stated in no uncertain terms that the US was committed to going “on the offensive to liberate Russian-occupied Ukraine” — which, according to the United States, includes both the entire Donbas and Crimea.

The admission that the weapons being provided by the US and Nato are of an offensive, not defensive, character marks a significant U-turn for the Biden administration. In March last year, Biden promised the public that the US would not send “offensive equipment” and “planes and tanks” to Ukraine, because this would trigger “World War III”. Indeed, just a few months ago, the provision of tanks to Ukraine was still deemed unthinkable.

Yet in the coming months, the US is planning to deliver 31 Abrams tanks, and even Germany, after weeks of reluctance, has caved in to the immense pressure coming from Washington and other allies. The German government has agreed to send 14 of its Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, and has also given the go-ahead to a number of other European countries which want to send their own German-made Leopard 2 tanks. Meanwhile, the UK has committed 14 of its own tanks. In total, Ukraine is set to receive around 100 tanks, but the number is likely to go up (Zelensky has asked for 300-500).

This is simply the latest in a long list of red lines that the US and Nato have crossed since the start of the conflict. At the start of the war, the New York Times cautioned that the overt supply of even small arms and light weaponry — initial provisions were limited to rocket launchers and anti-tank and surface-to-air missiles — “risks encouraging a wider war and possible retaliation” from Russia, while US officials ruled out more advanced weaponry as too escalatory. Just two months later, the Biden administration backtracked and announced that it would in fact be sending Mi-17 helicopters, 155-mm Howitzer cannons and Switchblade “kamikaze” drones.

At that point, a new red line was drawn: despite Kyiv’s requests, the US said it would not provide Ukraine with long-range rocket systems capable of striking inside Russian territory (the M270 MLRS and the M142 HIMARS) due to concerns in Washington that this “could be seen as an escalation by the Kremlin”. It took the administration just two weeks to change its mind, on the condition that Ukraine would not use them against targets on Russian territory — until, in December, that line was crossed as well, when Ukraine hit airfields hundreds of kilometres into Russia (with the US’s approval). The about-face over the shipment of battle tanks was just as quick, as we’ve seen.

In this apparently never-ending escalation, the only question is: what’s next? Ukraine is now pushing for Western fourth-generation fighter jets, such as the US F-16s. Biden and Nato Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg have ruled this out, but there’s no reason to believe they won’t backpedal on the F-16s as well, just as they’ve done on every other self-imposed red line. The Ukrainians, for their part, seem pretty confident. As the Ukrainian Defense Minister, Oleksii Reznikov, recently stated: “When I was in DC in November [2021], before the invasion, and asked for Stingers, they told me it was impossible. Now it’s possible. When I asked for 155-millimeter guns, the answer was no. HIMARS, no. HARM [missiles], no. Now all of that is a yes. Therefore, I’m certain that tomorrow there will be…F-16s.”

We can, therefore, expect fighter jets to be on the agenda at the Nato meeting next week. Several European countries, including France, have already signalled their openness to sending fighter jets to Ukraine and, according to Politico, Ukrainian pilots could soon start training on the F-16s in the United States. In the meantime, Lockheed Martin — one of the many US defence companies making a killing thanks to the conflict — has announced that it is going to ramp up production to meet the extra demand.

Jet fighters aside, however, we need to acknowledge that we are already at war with Russia, as the German Foreign Minister inadvertently admitted. The fact that there has been no formal declaration of war is beside the point: the United States has not officially declared war since the Second World War, but this has not stopped it from intervening militarily in dozens of countries. The presence of actual American or Nato soldiers on the ground (though there have been reports of the presence of US special operations forces in Ukraine) is also, ultimately, of secondary importance. By providing increasingly powerful military equipment as well as financial, technical, logistical and training support to one of the warring factions, including for offensive operations (even within Russian territory), the West is engaged in a de facto military confrontation with Russia, regardless of what our leaders may claim.

Western citizens deserve to be told what is going on in Ukraine — and what the stakes are. Perhaps the wildest claim being made is that “if we deliver all the weapons Ukraine needs, they can win”, as former Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen recently asserted. For Rasmussen, and other Western hawks, this includes retaking Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014 and which it considers of the utmost strategic importance. Many Western allies still consider this an uncrossable red line. But for how long? Just last month, the New York Times reported that the Biden administration is warming up to the idea of backing a Ukrainian offensive on Crimea.

This strategy is based on the assumption that Russia will accept a military defeat and the loss of the territories it controls without resorting to the unthinkable — the use of nuclear weapons. But this is a massive assumption on which to gamble the future of humanity, especially coming from the very Western strategists who disastrously botched every major military forecast over the past 20 years, from Iraq to Afghanistan. The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine, and there is no reason to believe that, with its back against the wall, it won’t go to extreme measures to guarantee its survival. As Dmitry Medvedev, deputy chairman of Russia’s Security Council, put it: “The loss of a nuclear power in a conventional war can provoke the outbreak of a nuclear war. Nuclear powers do not lose major conflicts on which their fate depends.”

During the Cold War, this was widely understood by Western leaders. But today, by constantly escalating their support for Ukraine’s military, the United States and Nato appear to have forgotten it, and are instead inching closer to a catastrophic scenario. As Douglas Macgregor, the former advisor to the Secretary of Defense in the Trump administration, has written: “Neither we nor our allies are prepared to fight all-out war with Russia, regionally or globally. The point is, if war breaks out between Russia and the United States, Americans should not be surprised. The Biden administration and its bipartisan supporters in Washington are doing all they possibly can to make it happen.” According to a number of experts, a Ukrainian offensive on Crimea is one of the most likely ways this conflict could lead to nuclear warfare. Excluding a such extreme outcome, and barring a peaceful resolution to the conflict, the most likely scenario is the “Afghanistanisation” of Ukraine: a protracted conflict that could potentially last years, given that it is just as unlikely that Nato will allow Ukraine to be militarily defeated — whatever that would entail.

The simple truth, then, is that no one can “win” this war. Meanwhile, a protracted war only increases the likelihood of a direct conflict between Russia and Nato. This is now even acknowledged by the RAND corporation, the very influential and ultra-hawkish US military think tank. In a new report titled Avoiding a Long War, the authors warn against the risk of a “protracted conflict”, saying that this would lead to “a prolonged elevated risk of Russian nuclear use and a Nato-Russia war” that would seriously jeopardise US interests. “Avoiding these two forms of escalation”, they argue, is therefore “the paramount US priority” — also higher than “weakening Russia” or “facilitating significantly more Ukrainian territorial control”. This means that US interests would be best served by focusing on reaching “a political settlement” that might deliver a “durable peace”, for example by “condition[ing] future military aid on a Ukrainian commitment to negotiations”.

Ultimately, catastrophic scenarios aside, this is the most likely way in which the war will end — with a deal in which neither side loses or wins. Delaying this inevitable outcome simply means imposing more unnecessary death and destruction on Ukraine — and more economic suffering on a continent that is fast reaching breaking point.


Thomas Fazi is an UnHerd columnist and translator. His latest book is The Covid Consensus, co-authored with Toby Green.

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Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago

The author writes in a vacuum – as if all escalation has come from the West. In reality since the start of the “special military operation”, Russia has commenced a mass mobilisation to greatly increase the number of troops it can commit, as well as unleashing mercenaries and released prisoners onto the front line. Given its larger size, this makes ultimate Russian victory inevitable, unless military assistance to Ukraine is stepped up. In that scenario, the flood of migrants west could be in the tens of millions, and the conflict could move to whatever neighbour Russia next declared to be an “existential threat”. There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year. It is facile to depict allowing Russia to overrun Ukraine as being risk free for the West.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephen Walsh
John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

I don’t entirely agree with the part where Russia faced no threat from Western expansion – it is true to an extent that the West did not honestly adhere to its commitments made to Russia after the fall of Communism.

In no sense however does this mean that Putin’s actions represent a genuine casus belli – the aggression is all on the Russian side and the manner in which the war has been prosecuted on the Russian side is a disgrace.

Where I do agree with you is that no outcome can be tolerated in which Russia gains from its actions after February of 2022. If this happens, the potential for conflict contagion is obvious.

Jonathan Keats
Jonathan Keats
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I would agree however the concern is that the US has changed the agenda from “understanding” the Russian claim to and strategic importance of Crimea to wanting to clear them out
This shift along with repeated comments from Austin on destroying Russias conventional ability are very dangerous and its about time we had a full debate in parliament about the end game.
Whilst Russia is the physical aggressor the west is not blame free particularly not in the sugar coated way the BBC Doc on Putin portrays.

The Israeli PM Bennett came out with a very interesting interview this week painting the Uk and the USA as anti any peace and settlement other than a full withdrawal by Russia when Zelensky he suggested would have settled for less

William Braden
William Braden
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Keats

I don’t recall any recent time when Zelensky suggested settling for less. And he wouldn’t have popular support within Ukraine for doing so.
Ukraine already tried making peace with Russia — the Minsk Protocols 2014, 2015. Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in 1994, in exchange for Russian promises to respect their independence and sovereignty.
It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing.

Jay Bee
Jay Bee
1 year ago
Reply to  William Braden

The Minsk Protocols were a sick joke. As acknowledged now by both Merkel and Holland, the protocols were only instituted to give Ukraine time to build up militarily. Russian signed onto the agreements in good faith, Germany and France did not.
‘It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing’.
Indeed…

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jay Bee

The covert attack by Russia on Ukraine was far more a “sick joke” than Minsk ever was.
After the armistice, Putin could have asked for blue helmets to separate the two sides and hold a genuine referendum, a la Bosnia.
Instead he chose to make Donbas a frozen conflict, like his many others.
Putin doesn’t want peace with his neighbours.
He wants to permanently intimidate them, and insurte they never have normal relations with any other nation.

Ian Schmeisser
Ian Schmeisser
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Putin would like to not have nuclear missiles capable of striking the heart of Russia in under 10 minutes. The situation that the USA/NATO has placed us in will result in nuclear response system being on a hair trigger.
The chances of a mistake are unacceptably high.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Schmeisser

the idea that NATO would EVER attack Russia is a particularly stupid one !!

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Schmeisser

the idea that NATO would EVER attack Russia is a particularly stupid one !!

Ian Schmeisser
Ian Schmeisser
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Putin would like to not have nuclear missiles capable of striking the heart of Russia in under 10 minutes. The situation that the USA/NATO has placed us in will result in nuclear response system being on a hair trigger.
The chances of a mistake are unacceptably high.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jay Bee

The covert attack by Russia on Ukraine was far more a “sick joke” than Minsk ever was.
After the armistice, Putin could have asked for blue helmets to separate the two sides and hold a genuine referendum, a la Bosnia.
Instead he chose to make Donbas a frozen conflict, like his many others.
Putin doesn’t want peace with his neighbours.
He wants to permanently intimidate them, and insurte they never have normal relations with any other nation.

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  William Braden

No Ukraine did not try making peace with Russia, yes they signed the Minsk protocols and then made no attempt to enforce tehm and were not pressed to do so by the cosignees to that deal,
Merkel has already stated that the Germans had no interest in making it happen. Interestingly the US was not part of this deal does make me wonder how much they were pushing Ukraine to not comply.

Jay Bee
Jay Bee
1 year ago
Reply to  William Braden

The Minsk Protocols were a sick joke. As acknowledged now by both Merkel and Holland, the protocols were only instituted to give Ukraine time to build up militarily. Russian signed onto the agreements in good faith, Germany and France did not.
‘It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing’.
Indeed…

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  William Braden

No Ukraine did not try making peace with Russia, yes they signed the Minsk protocols and then made no attempt to enforce tehm and were not pressed to do so by the cosignees to that deal,
Merkel has already stated that the Germans had no interest in making it happen. Interestingly the US was not part of this deal does make me wonder how much they were pushing Ukraine to not comply.

William Braden
William Braden
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Keats

I don’t recall any recent time when Zelensky suggested settling for less. And he wouldn’t have popular support within Ukraine for doing so.
Ukraine already tried making peace with Russia — the Minsk Protocols 2014, 2015. Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons in 1994, in exchange for Russian promises to respect their independence and sovereignty.
It’s hard to make peace when words mean nothing.

Jonathan Keats
Jonathan Keats
1 year ago
Reply to  John Riordan

I would agree however the concern is that the US has changed the agenda from “understanding” the Russian claim to and strategic importance of Crimea to wanting to clear them out
This shift along with repeated comments from Austin on destroying Russias conventional ability are very dangerous and its about time we had a full debate in parliament about the end game.
Whilst Russia is the physical aggressor the west is not blame free particularly not in the sugar coated way the BBC Doc on Putin portrays.

The Israeli PM Bennett came out with a very interesting interview this week painting the Uk and the USA as anti any peace and settlement other than a full withdrawal by Russia when Zelensky he suggested would have settled for less

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Yup, if the west had done nothing to resist Russia I think the Eastern European states would have formed their own ‘defensive’ military alliance, separate from NATO, and called upon USA and U.K. support, which we would have provided. The template is so clearly Hitlerian, with expansion based on mythical existential threats to justify it.

Kat L
Kat L
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Everything is hitler…tiresome. Imo a more accurate comparison is WWI and we’ve obviously learned nothing from it.

Kat L
Kat L
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Everything is hitler…tiresome. Imo a more accurate comparison is WWI and we’ve obviously learned nothing from it.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

“There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year”
Sorry, that’s simply not true. The fighting has been going on without a break since the breaching of the Minsk accords (by both sides, probably) in 2014. Putin didn’t start the war in 2022, he escalated it.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

So Putin started it when he sent his troops into Crimea or the eastern regions then?

Ian Dale
Ian Dale
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Actually yes. It is just that the other side, the Ukrainians and their current allies didn’t show up to fight They just said, “Fine, Mr Putin; have it your own way. We don’t want any casualties. We don’t want to spend any money to impede your ambitions.”. So now the war continues until the Donbas is taken, and then the rest of the Ukraine, and indeed the rest of Eastern Europe. Mr Putin has never made any secret of his goal to return Europe to the status of 1988. And yes, that does include reincorporating the Baltic states into Russia proper and reinstating Russian hegemony over the other Eastern European countries, including of course the Eastern parts of Germany.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Dale

I hear you Ian. You echo the sentiments of John Sullivan, former US ambassador to Russia under Trump and then Biden: ‘On Russia extending war into other countries – they would if they could, but hands full in Donbas. Would like a relationship with the other former Soviet Republics like the one they have with Belarus. What they want in Kyiv, Moldova etc. Hands full in Ukraine now, but may be his longer vision for Putin and his followers/successors’. (It was a recent Kennan Institute webinar, from Feb this year). While I’m at it, I believe my good friend Lewis Baston wrote your chapter on Callaghan! Greetings! He has a book deal currently for a book on borders – you should touch base.

Ian Schmeisser
Ian Schmeisser
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Dale

Actually, the CIA/State Department coup (“…f**k the EU) got the ball rolling, imo. That, and placing launch tubes in Romania that could house offensive missiles (Tomohawks)…

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Dale

I hear you Ian. You echo the sentiments of John Sullivan, former US ambassador to Russia under Trump and then Biden: ‘On Russia extending war into other countries – they would if they could, but hands full in Donbas. Would like a relationship with the other former Soviet Republics like the one they have with Belarus. What they want in Kyiv, Moldova etc. Hands full in Ukraine now, but may be his longer vision for Putin and his followers/successors’. (It was a recent Kennan Institute webinar, from Feb this year). While I’m at it, I believe my good friend Lewis Baston wrote your chapter on Callaghan! Greetings! He has a book deal currently for a book on borders – you should touch base.

Ian Schmeisser
Ian Schmeisser
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Dale

Actually, the CIA/State Department coup (“…f**k the EU) got the ball rolling, imo. That, and placing launch tubes in Romania that could house offensive missiles (Tomohawks)…

Ian Dale
Ian Dale
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Actually yes. It is just that the other side, the Ukrainians and their current allies didn’t show up to fight They just said, “Fine, Mr Putin; have it your own way. We don’t want any casualties. We don’t want to spend any money to impede your ambitions.”. So now the war continues until the Donbas is taken, and then the rest of the Ukraine, and indeed the rest of Eastern Europe. Mr Putin has never made any secret of his goal to return Europe to the status of 1988. And yes, that does include reincorporating the Baltic states into Russia proper and reinstating Russian hegemony over the other Eastern European countries, including of course the Eastern parts of Germany.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

No. There’s been a separatist movement in those regions since the 1990s.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

So Putin started it when he sent his troops into Crimea or the eastern regions then?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

No. There’s been a separatist movement in those regions since the 1990s.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Today on Daily Mail – but read the comments – the BTL is almost 100% Against this war – against giving weapons and money! Fantastic, the people are realizing how evil this war is . Peace Now.

Disgusting looking at the three faces of Evil on the header of the article above!

‘We’ll send you pilots who’ve already done 2.5 years’: Zelensky swipes at Rishi Sunak’s claim it takes three years to train to fly UK fighter jets at joint press conference – while Russia threatens ‘response’ if Britain heeds Ukraine’s plea for planes
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11728209/Rishi-Sunak-warns-time-train-Ukraine-pilots-fly-fighter-jets.html

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

A lot of people wondering what Boris is playing at too, myself included. He seems to be leading the charge for escalation….

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

They love him in Ukraine.

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

He’s probably working for Blackrock who, given the win win position they seem to be in may well be the main escalator of this war.
For those that don’t know Blackrock has substantial investment in major US arms manufacturers has three of its alumni in the Biden administration and also has a deal with the current Ukraine leadership as regards rebuilding the country when the dust settles, assuming they win of course.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Day

Thanks, I’m going right off boris 🙂 Multicorps ahead of the game again, apparently the us military industrial complex is having an aggressive growth and revamp drive at the moment.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Day

Thanks, I’m going right off boris 🙂 Multicorps ahead of the game again, apparently the us military industrial complex is having an aggressive growth and revamp drive at the moment.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

On Times radio the other day one young male presenter said to the other presenter something like “what is it with Boris Johnson going around the world making deals like he is the Prime Minister”. And that remark tripped a switch in my head. Of course all those months when us simpletons were being distracted by the tv reality show style voting what was Boris doing. He was making secret deals. I’m sure of it. Rishi Sunak is his stand in,his Avatar.
I feel sure I’m right. Somehow,some way Boris is still REALLY our Prime Minister,or someone’s PM.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Boris thinks he’s Churchill and Putin is Hitler. I’s really that simple.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Well I did think it was possible he may have thought Britain leading the way at the start might have kept the Americans under control. Now potentially it just looks like he’s been cut free to cut dodgy deals on weapons. I don’t know what is happening. But none of it is looking good at this point.

Kat L
Kat L
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Everyone the left or neocons don’t like is hitler.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Well I did think it was possible he may have thought Britain leading the way at the start might have kept the Americans under control. Now potentially it just looks like he’s been cut free to cut dodgy deals on weapons. I don’t know what is happening. But none of it is looking good at this point.

Kat L
Kat L
1 year ago
Reply to  Kate Heusser

Everyone the left or neocons don’t like is hitler.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

They love him in Ukraine.

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

He’s probably working for Blackrock who, given the win win position they seem to be in may well be the main escalator of this war.
For those that don’t know Blackrock has substantial investment in major US arms manufacturers has three of its alumni in the Biden administration and also has a deal with the current Ukraine leadership as regards rebuilding the country when the dust settles, assuming they win of course.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

On Times radio the other day one young male presenter said to the other presenter something like “what is it with Boris Johnson going around the world making deals like he is the Prime Minister”. And that remark tripped a switch in my head. Of course all those months when us simpletons were being distracted by the tv reality show style voting what was Boris doing. He was making secret deals. I’m sure of it. Rishi Sunak is his stand in,his Avatar.
I feel sure I’m right. Somehow,some way Boris is still REALLY our Prime Minister,or someone’s PM.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Boris thinks he’s Churchill and Putin is Hitler. I’s really that simple.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Who are the BTL? Forgive my ignorance.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

The comments feed under the linked article.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Ah, ‘Below the Line’! Ha ha! So simple in the end. Thank you!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Ah, ‘Below the Line’! Ha ha! So simple in the end. Thank you!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

The comments feed under the linked article.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Daily Mail? Apologies. I am grateful for the link. Sometimes, oddly, tabloids (on both sides of the political spectrum), get it right. Sometimes.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I wouldn’t put too much trust in the Daily Mail. On the horseshoe of stupidity, you’ve got the Guardian on the left and Mail on the right. Most of society exists a long way between the two thankfully

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I thought you were from New Zealand? Both those news papers do actually publish news you know, a bad understanding of msm.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m English, I now live in NZ. Both of those rage are absolute tripe, they’re a parody of newspapers the pair of them. The Guardian is Twitter personified, whereas The Mail is satire of old people yelling about how things were better in their day

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Still. Misunderstand. Yes every paper has its own bias. Yes the news is packaged and presented to draw attention to certain issues and detract from others. But fundamentally, there is some news and some fact in all the msm. It’s not quite gone full 1984 yet. There is nothing wrong with sharing articles from msm.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

There’s news in them both, but it’s written in such a heavily opinionated matter that the original story gets lost in the nonsense.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

So you are saying…… Its all just opinions? OK. So the msm orchestrate a conspiracy of the same written opinions? We are still not having a sensible conversation I feel.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

So you are saying…… Its all just opinions? OK. So the msm orchestrate a conspiracy of the same written opinions? We are still not having a sensible conversation I feel.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

There’s news in them both, but it’s written in such a heavily opinionated matter that the original story gets lost in the nonsense.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I read everything, whether I agree with it or not! Can’t make a sound argument otherwise

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Still. Misunderstand. Yes every paper has its own bias. Yes the news is packaged and presented to draw attention to certain issues and detract from others. But fundamentally, there is some news and some fact in all the msm. It’s not quite gone full 1984 yet. There is nothing wrong with sharing articles from msm.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I read everything, whether I agree with it or not! Can’t make a sound argument otherwise

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m English, I now live in NZ. Both of those rage are absolute tripe, they’re a parody of newspapers the pair of them. The Guardian is Twitter personified, whereas The Mail is satire of old people yelling about how things were better in their day

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I thought you were from New Zealand? Both those news papers do actually publish news you know, a bad understanding of msm.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I wouldn’t put too much trust in the Daily Mail. On the horseshoe of stupidity, you’ve got the Guardian on the left and Mail on the right. Most of society exists a long way between the two thankfully

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

A lot of people wondering what Boris is playing at too, myself included. He seems to be leading the charge for escalation….

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Who are the BTL? Forgive my ignorance.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Daily Mail? Apologies. I am grateful for the link. Sometimes, oddly, tabloids (on both sides of the political spectrum), get it right. Sometimes.

J. Hale
J. Hale
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

It doesn’t matter which side the escalation comes from. The longer the war lasts and the more escalation there is, the greater the chance of a disastrous miscalculation.

Greta Hirschman
Greta Hirschman
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

A NATO that includes authoritarian countries like Turkey had little sense and has no moral authority. NATO did not respect their commitments and expanded toward Russia. Ukraine surrendered their nuclear ammo to Russia in exchange of its territorial integrity. Neither Russia nor the NATO cared to respect that.
Instead of engaging Russia during the Yeltsin era, the EU and the US were more interested in plundering their resources and letting the oligarchs get rich on what was formerly people’s property. So, the Russians felt that freedom was limited to former members of the apparatchik to get rich and voted for a former KGB agent that promised a sort of return to some of the Soviet dreams with the assistance of Pope Kirill, who is both an oligarch and a religious leader that incarnates the old Russian Empire.
The NATO allowed the invasion of Ukraine, denying any deployment of military defence systems along their borders after the annexation of Ukraine 8 years ago. Now it is playing a long proxy war against Russia while China is not touching its arm stocks.
External debt for the largest NATO members is over 100% (roughly 130% for the US). The economy is stagnated and the inflation is high, as shown for instance in the last monthly Bundesband report. Guess that some bureaucrats thought that military Keynesianism could be a good idea to get out of the crises.
As per the supposition that Russia would win because of its larger size, this makes no sense. Japan defeated Russia in 1905, Vietnam defeated the US during the Johnson-Nixon era and Afghanistan defeated the Soviets in the 1980s. The swampy Ukrainian soil would be tricky, to say the least, for the Russian tanks. Russian communication systems are not the state of the art, to say the least, and its financial muscle is weaker than that of any major NATO member.
Russia can count on their energy and mineral resources and domestic technology, but its strategy has been only successful with long resistance and counter-attack, not in attack and occupation campaigns.
So, if NATO + Ukraine wins, the likely winners would be China and Turkey. Therefore, it would sound like a weakening of the UK, the EU and the US.
If efforts were put in peace and reconstruction agreements, we might be able to focus on how to manage debt and inflation.

shaun campbell
shaun campbell
1 year ago

Stop with the rewriting of history. There was never any guarantee of no further NATO expansion when the USSR collapsed. That myth needs to be put to bed once and for all

Last edited 1 year ago by shaun campbell
John Bonaccorsi
John Bonaccorsi
1 year ago
Reply to  shaun campbell

It doesn’t matter whether there was a guarantee. If the United States had a sense of honor, there would have been no expansion of NATO after the dissolution of the USSR. The United States means nothing to me anymore.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  shaun campbell

There are 13 USA funded bio-labs in the Ukraine. Mr Putin put 9 out of action. I don’t know if they are operational now. The USA located them provacatively near the border. Would you like it if your neighbour put a poison store and with flammable items right up against your garden fence. Mr Biden in one of those unguarded moments told a journalist that they put the bio labs in the Ukraine because none of the USA electorate would tolerate having such a place in their location. Also this is why USA has to fight this war by proxy. The Afghan/Iraq conflicts showed the power of American Mom’s camping on the White House lawn.

John Bonaccorsi
John Bonaccorsi
1 year ago
Reply to  shaun campbell

It doesn’t matter whether there was a guarantee. If the United States had a sense of honor, there would have been no expansion of NATO after the dissolution of the USSR. The United States means nothing to me anymore.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  shaun campbell

There are 13 USA funded bio-labs in the Ukraine. Mr Putin put 9 out of action. I don’t know if they are operational now. The USA located them provacatively near the border. Would you like it if your neighbour put a poison store and with flammable items right up against your garden fence. Mr Biden in one of those unguarded moments told a journalist that they put the bio labs in the Ukraine because none of the USA electorate would tolerate having such a place in their location. Also this is why USA has to fight this war by proxy. The Afghan/Iraq conflicts showed the power of American Mom’s camping on the White House lawn.

Glyn R
Glyn R
1 year ago

Didn’t Zelensky recently state that Blackrock, Goldman Sachs etc had already signed reconstruction agreements?

shaun campbell
shaun campbell
1 year ago

Stop with the rewriting of history. There was never any guarantee of no further NATO expansion when the USSR collapsed. That myth needs to be put to bed once and for all

Last edited 1 year ago by shaun campbell
Glyn R
Glyn R
1 year ago

Didn’t Zelensky recently state that Blackrock, Goldman Sachs etc had already signed reconstruction agreements?

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

To say that there was no meaningful threat in Crimea and other occupied territories I assume you mean the Donbas which was not occupied by Russia prior to march of 2022 is either disingenuous or the author is ignorant of the facts. The Donbas and Lughansk had always been very pro Russia were never happy with the US backed illegal coupe in 2014. Since that time Kiev had carried our a campaign of what can only be called ethnic cleansing in these regions.
Had the west negotiated in good faith with Russia and ensured the Minsk agreements were put in place and enforced then likely we would not be in this position today. Russia has only ever wanted to avoid having NATO on its border a not unreasonable position given the actions of NATO over the last decade.
NATO was created as a defensive organisation and should have been disbanded in the early ’90’s

John Riordan
John Riordan
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

I don’t entirely agree with the part where Russia faced no threat from Western expansion – it is true to an extent that the West did not honestly adhere to its commitments made to Russia after the fall of Communism.

In no sense however does this mean that Putin’s actions represent a genuine casus belli – the aggression is all on the Russian side and the manner in which the war has been prosecuted on the Russian side is a disgrace.

Where I do agree with you is that no outcome can be tolerated in which Russia gains from its actions after February of 2022. If this happens, the potential for conflict contagion is obvious.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Yup, if the west had done nothing to resist Russia I think the Eastern European states would have formed their own ‘defensive’ military alliance, separate from NATO, and called upon USA and U.K. support, which we would have provided. The template is so clearly Hitlerian, with expansion based on mythical existential threats to justify it.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

“There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year”
Sorry, that’s simply not true. The fighting has been going on without a break since the breaching of the Minsk accords (by both sides, probably) in 2014. Putin didn’t start the war in 2022, he escalated it.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Today on Daily Mail – but read the comments – the BTL is almost 100% Against this war – against giving weapons and money! Fantastic, the people are realizing how evil this war is . Peace Now.

Disgusting looking at the three faces of Evil on the header of the article above!

‘We’ll send you pilots who’ve already done 2.5 years’: Zelensky swipes at Rishi Sunak’s claim it takes three years to train to fly UK fighter jets at joint press conference – while Russia threatens ‘response’ if Britain heeds Ukraine’s plea for planes
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11728209/Rishi-Sunak-warns-time-train-Ukraine-pilots-fly-fighter-jets.html

J. Hale
J. Hale
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

It doesn’t matter which side the escalation comes from. The longer the war lasts and the more escalation there is, the greater the chance of a disastrous miscalculation.

Greta Hirschman
Greta Hirschman
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

A NATO that includes authoritarian countries like Turkey had little sense and has no moral authority. NATO did not respect their commitments and expanded toward Russia. Ukraine surrendered their nuclear ammo to Russia in exchange of its territorial integrity. Neither Russia nor the NATO cared to respect that.
Instead of engaging Russia during the Yeltsin era, the EU and the US were more interested in plundering their resources and letting the oligarchs get rich on what was formerly people’s property. So, the Russians felt that freedom was limited to former members of the apparatchik to get rich and voted for a former KGB agent that promised a sort of return to some of the Soviet dreams with the assistance of Pope Kirill, who is both an oligarch and a religious leader that incarnates the old Russian Empire.
The NATO allowed the invasion of Ukraine, denying any deployment of military defence systems along their borders after the annexation of Ukraine 8 years ago. Now it is playing a long proxy war against Russia while China is not touching its arm stocks.
External debt for the largest NATO members is over 100% (roughly 130% for the US). The economy is stagnated and the inflation is high, as shown for instance in the last monthly Bundesband report. Guess that some bureaucrats thought that military Keynesianism could be a good idea to get out of the crises.
As per the supposition that Russia would win because of its larger size, this makes no sense. Japan defeated Russia in 1905, Vietnam defeated the US during the Johnson-Nixon era and Afghanistan defeated the Soviets in the 1980s. The swampy Ukrainian soil would be tricky, to say the least, for the Russian tanks. Russian communication systems are not the state of the art, to say the least, and its financial muscle is weaker than that of any major NATO member.
Russia can count on their energy and mineral resources and domestic technology, but its strategy has been only successful with long resistance and counter-attack, not in attack and occupation campaigns.
So, if NATO + Ukraine wins, the likely winners would be China and Turkey. Therefore, it would sound like a weakening of the UK, the EU and the US.
If efforts were put in peace and reconstruction agreements, we might be able to focus on how to manage debt and inflation.

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

To say that there was no meaningful threat in Crimea and other occupied territories I assume you mean the Donbas which was not occupied by Russia prior to march of 2022 is either disingenuous or the author is ignorant of the facts. The Donbas and Lughansk had always been very pro Russia were never happy with the US backed illegal coupe in 2014. Since that time Kiev had carried our a campaign of what can only be called ethnic cleansing in these regions.
Had the west negotiated in good faith with Russia and ensured the Minsk agreements were put in place and enforced then likely we would not be in this position today. Russia has only ever wanted to avoid having NATO on its border a not unreasonable position given the actions of NATO over the last decade.
NATO was created as a defensive organisation and should have been disbanded in the early ’90’s

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago

The author writes in a vacuum – as if all escalation has come from the West. In reality since the start of the “special military operation”, Russia has commenced a mass mobilisation to greatly increase the number of troops it can commit, as well as unleashing mercenaries and released prisoners onto the front line. Given its larger size, this makes ultimate Russian victory inevitable, unless military assistance to Ukraine is stepped up. In that scenario, the flood of migrants west could be in the tens of millions, and the conflict could move to whatever neighbour Russia next declared to be an “existential threat”. There was no meaningful threat to Russia’s position in Crimea and the other occupied territories until Putin started this war last year. It is facile to depict allowing Russia to overrun Ukraine as being risk free for the West.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephen Walsh
j watson
j watson
1 year ago

The Author seems to forget this is already a catastrophe for the 40m people of Ukraine as one would expect when your country is invaded by a murderous regime.
Putin will continue to sabre rattle the nuclear escalation threat. Each time he does he shows his weakness. His only hope is opinion formers in the West buy into it, as this Article to a degree does.
There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons. Amongst a number of reasons for that anyone looked at which way the prevailing winds blow in Ukraine? Anyone pondered if the Russian forces actually have sufficient bio-nuc-chemical warfare kit? No they’ll have flogged it on the black market like they did with half the rest of their kit.
It’s difficult to determine how close Putin might be to a Palace coup. Probably not that close yet, but he knows a move in this direction could change that. His mafia regime doesn’t want to destroy everything they have left. They also know what non western support they have would evaporate. Thus Putin knows he likely signs his own death warrant if he uses nuclear weapons. He’s rationale, just a murderous type.
One suspects though that the FSB closely monitors the degree of resolution in the West and probably has ways of picking up how many similar articles begin to populate western media. They’ll watch the trend to see if the more they threaten the more we cower. That doesn’t mean we should suppress different views at all, but does mean we should be aware of the game being played.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Well said. Russia has repeatedly threatened at every stage. Remember how Sweden and Finland couldn’t join NATO. Each time, the moment passed and the threats never materialised.
Putin has turned his country into one giant Potemkin village.

Will Will
Will Will
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I thought Sweden didn’t want to join nato preferring to maintain its neutral status as it had done for a long time including during the Second World War. Was that not the case?

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

Yes that indeed was true but the public attitude to NATO changed with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

Though one benefit of Sweden and Finland not being in NATO is that they can be more aggressive with their own defence against Russia, and Russia can’t then pretend it’s a NATO threat.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

They don’t have nuclear weapons. If I was a country at risk of Russian annexation/invasion, the nuclear umbrella would be very attractive to me…

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

They don’t have nuclear weapons. If I was a country at risk of Russian annexation/invasion, the nuclear umbrella would be very attractive to me…

Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

As a swede I would say that neutrality is a beautiful dream and reality a great wake-up call.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Exactly.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Exactly.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

They didn’t. Then came 24/2…

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

Yes that indeed was true but the public attitude to NATO changed with Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

Though one benefit of Sweden and Finland not being in NATO is that they can be more aggressive with their own defence against Russia, and Russia can’t then pretend it’s a NATO threat.

Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

As a swede I would say that neutrality is a beautiful dream and reality a great wake-up call.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

They didn’t. Then came 24/2…

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Thank you for this ‘Potemkin village’ reference. It spiralled me down a research hole for which now I can happily say I am greatly enlightened! Thank you.

Will Will
Will Will
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I thought Sweden didn’t want to join nato preferring to maintain its neutral status as it had done for a long time including during the Second World War. Was that not the case?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Thank you for this ‘Potemkin village’ reference. It spiralled me down a research hole for which now I can happily say I am greatly enlightened! Thank you.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Problem is: if Putin is overthrown it will most likely be done by people who think he’s not being brutal enough.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Possibly HB, but the Russian experts I’ve heard discuss this on various media predict more an internal bloodbath of sorts rather than Nuclear projection at the West immediately. You don’t want to grab power, start to enjoy what goes with that – the Dachas, the patronage levers etc, and then chuck it away. Power corrupts as they say. I was also fascinated in listening to experts like Stephen Kotkin that the fall of Putin could set off a cascade of imperial disintegration in what is still a Russian empire. We tend to forget Russia is an imperial construct and has many fault-lines that could open up. That of course generates other potential risk, but possibly less that it immediately goes into a nuclear conflagration with the West.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I read that they are planning for a potential explosion of Russia, just in case… May not happen, but everything has to be on the table just in case. Part of Russia’s problem at the start of the war. They expected it to be quick and easy – government overthrow in a matter of days. Too arrogant. When it didn’t work out, back to the drawing board.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I read that they are planning for a potential explosion of Russia, just in case… May not happen, but everything has to be on the table just in case. Part of Russia’s problem at the start of the war. They expected it to be quick and easy – government overthrow in a matter of days. Too arrogant. When it didn’t work out, back to the drawing board.

Chris Dale
Chris Dale
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Russia needs another Mikhail Gorbachev

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Dale

He would have fallen out of a window by now.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

ha ha!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

ha ha!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Dale

If only … He was great!

Vinnie Talks Sh*t Wright
Vinnie Talks Sh*t Wright
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Dale

From a Russian viewpoint that’s like saying Britain needs another Neville Chamberlain

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Dale

He would have fallen out of a window by now.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Dale

If only … He was great!

Vinnie Talks Sh*t Wright
Vinnie Talks Sh*t Wright
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Dale

From a Russian viewpoint that’s like saying Britain needs another Neville Chamberlain

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Yes. There is no good end to this.

Mechan Barclay
Mechan Barclay
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Very true. We know what Putin is as a leader. He has shown his true colours over a long period of his dictatorship. We can surmise what he plans on doing. I can’t say the same thing to another brutal praetorian rebel leader.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

This indeed is a possibility. An additional consideration that has to be in the planning network is the disintegration of Russia… Not saying it’s happening. Just saying it has to be considered as one of the possibilities in the plans.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Possibly HB, but the Russian experts I’ve heard discuss this on various media predict more an internal bloodbath of sorts rather than Nuclear projection at the West immediately. You don’t want to grab power, start to enjoy what goes with that – the Dachas, the patronage levers etc, and then chuck it away. Power corrupts as they say. I was also fascinated in listening to experts like Stephen Kotkin that the fall of Putin could set off a cascade of imperial disintegration in what is still a Russian empire. We tend to forget Russia is an imperial construct and has many fault-lines that could open up. That of course generates other potential risk, but possibly less that it immediately goes into a nuclear conflagration with the West.

Chris Dale
Chris Dale
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Russia needs another Mikhail Gorbachev

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Yes. There is no good end to this.

Mechan Barclay
Mechan Barclay
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Very true. We know what Putin is as a leader. He has shown his true colours over a long period of his dictatorship. We can surmise what he plans on doing. I can’t say the same thing to another brutal praetorian rebel leader.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

This indeed is a possibility. An additional consideration that has to be in the planning network is the disintegration of Russia… Not saying it’s happening. Just saying it has to be considered as one of the possibilities in the plans.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

“There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons.” –
I’ve heard this claim often but it’s dubious.
How exactly do the Ukraine forces retake Crimea which is connected to the rest of Ukraine with two narrow peninsulas? With their non-existent amphibian landing craft or non-existent paratroops? No. They will need concentrated assaults on one or both roads to Crimea. Tactical nukes can be dialed into whatever yield and radius the Russians desire.
It doesn’t matter which way the wind blows! Tactical nukes exploded high in the atmosphere create orders of magnitude less fallout than regular nukes and the radioactive remains of the bomb disperses over a very wide area with minimal harm outside the target area.
This is not to say we shouldn’t help Ukraine. It’s just that Putin, if Crimea were ever threatened with invasion with Putin still in power, has nothing left to lose in going nuclear.
https://open.substack.com/pub/everythingelse/p/nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine-thinking?r=p3jgh&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Thank you Michael for your clarification on the radius of Tactical Nukes. I read your link on substack and see that you have an Ms and PhD in Applied Physics from Cornell. It was interesting to hear and you clarified something I didn’t know previously in a way that was easy to understand. Much appreciated.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thank you for reading the article and kind words.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thank you for reading the article and kind words.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Ukraine doesn’t necessarily need to invade Crimea to control it. The whole peninsula would be within range of long range weapons, most importantly the Kerch bridge.
Most pro-Russian Crimeans would already have left, so it would become a siege. Then negotiation.
The situation as it was before–a Crimea with considerable autonomy (or even neutrality)–would be the probable outcome.
By then both sides will be tired of war.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Interesting MC. Re: Tactical benefit – thus far I put more stock in the v senior ex-military commentators I’ve listened to. All been of similar mind. If opposing forces are in contact a high atmosphere detonation would impact on Russian forces too. Plus if you want to retain some loyalty from some Crimean locals you don’t drop a nuclear warhead on your own land do you? I’ve also heard commentators suggest Russian leaders not entirely sure their nuclear capability as functional as they’d hope. The chronic problems they’ve experienced with so much they thought was resilient and well functioning means they may be cautious about any demonstration that went wrong. Sabre rattling capability implodes if you demonstrate things don’t work.
As regards how Ukraine retakes Crimea – clearly the strategy won’t be fully shared but remarkable they re-took back so much territory already without heavy armour. It’ll be about cutting off the two supplies routes, degrading the forces in Crimea and creating a scenario where they potentially withdraw before being encircled as was the case with Kherson. I agree though – it’s complicated on many levels. But Ukraine knows to leave Crimea alone means they’ll never be secure.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I am hesitant to give the experts the benefit of the doubt these days (not just regarding Ukraine). It would be instructive to go back 1 years time and do a duckduckgo search for comments by one of the commentators who says that nukes have no use case and see their predictions for the duration of the “special operation” by Russia. I recall many ex military predicting it would take 3 days to be over!
Regarding some of our counter claims:
There won’t be many Russian regular forces under the death zone (maybe zero) which could be as small as a mile. Look at the highway near Stavky in Kherson Oblast. It’s flat farm land – no close contact there! That territory will eventually be going back to Ukraine – Putin has demonstrated zero regard for the lives of Ukrainians so he’ll have no hesitation to bomb territory he realizes he can’t have.
Sure the nuke might not work – that is why you don’t do a “demonstration” as you refer to! Russians could fire a TN via artillery over a convoy near Stavky and if it is a dud and becomes a dirty bomb (leaving evidence) Putin might be even better off! He can deny being the source and simultaneouswly scare the crap out of any further advances into Crimea.
Again, I really hope there is peace, however shaky, before this point.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I am hesitant to give the experts the benefit of the doubt these days (not just regarding Ukraine). It would be instructive to go back 1 years time and do a duckduckgo search for comments by one of the commentators who says that nukes have no use case and see their predictions for the duration of the “special operation” by Russia. I recall many ex military predicting it would take 3 days to be over!
Regarding some of our counter claims:
There won’t be many Russian regular forces under the death zone (maybe zero) which could be as small as a mile. Look at the highway near Stavky in Kherson Oblast. It’s flat farm land – no close contact there! That territory will eventually be going back to Ukraine – Putin has demonstrated zero regard for the lives of Ukrainians so he’ll have no hesitation to bomb territory he realizes he can’t have.
Sure the nuke might not work – that is why you don’t do a “demonstration” as you refer to! Russians could fire a TN via artillery over a convoy near Stavky and if it is a dud and becomes a dirty bomb (leaving evidence) Putin might be even better off! He can deny being the source and simultaneouswly scare the crap out of any further advances into Crimea.
Again, I really hope there is peace, however shaky, before this point.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Thank you Michael for your clarification on the radius of Tactical Nukes. I read your link on substack and see that you have an Ms and PhD in Applied Physics from Cornell. It was interesting to hear and you clarified something I didn’t know previously in a way that was easy to understand. Much appreciated.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Ukraine doesn’t necessarily need to invade Crimea to control it. The whole peninsula would be within range of long range weapons, most importantly the Kerch bridge.
Most pro-Russian Crimeans would already have left, so it would become a siege. Then negotiation.
The situation as it was before–a Crimea with considerable autonomy (or even neutrality)–would be the probable outcome.
By then both sides will be tired of war.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Interesting MC. Re: Tactical benefit – thus far I put more stock in the v senior ex-military commentators I’ve listened to. All been of similar mind. If opposing forces are in contact a high atmosphere detonation would impact on Russian forces too. Plus if you want to retain some loyalty from some Crimean locals you don’t drop a nuclear warhead on your own land do you? I’ve also heard commentators suggest Russian leaders not entirely sure their nuclear capability as functional as they’d hope. The chronic problems they’ve experienced with so much they thought was resilient and well functioning means they may be cautious about any demonstration that went wrong. Sabre rattling capability implodes if you demonstrate things don’t work.
As regards how Ukraine retakes Crimea – clearly the strategy won’t be fully shared but remarkable they re-took back so much territory already without heavy armour. It’ll be about cutting off the two supplies routes, degrading the forces in Crimea and creating a scenario where they potentially withdraw before being encircled as was the case with Kherson. I agree though – it’s complicated on many levels. But Ukraine knows to leave Crimea alone means they’ll never be secure.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Maybe Mr Putin is the sane one here. I’m not saying nice,I’m saying sane. Have we in U K all become 3 year olds that we need pantomime villains to boo and hiss at. If anyone is megalomaniac with a Hitler complex it’s looks more like Zelensky to me. And what sort of dreadful people elect as their leader a known liar and money embezzling amoral performer with known links to corruption. Oops,we do (as well). Birds of a Feather as they say.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Well said. Russia has repeatedly threatened at every stage. Remember how Sweden and Finland couldn’t join NATO. Each time, the moment passed and the threats never materialised.
Putin has turned his country into one giant Potemkin village.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Problem is: if Putin is overthrown it will most likely be done by people who think he’s not being brutal enough.

Michael Coleman
Michael Coleman
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

“There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons.” –
I’ve heard this claim often but it’s dubious.
How exactly do the Ukraine forces retake Crimea which is connected to the rest of Ukraine with two narrow peninsulas? With their non-existent amphibian landing craft or non-existent paratroops? No. They will need concentrated assaults on one or both roads to Crimea. Tactical nukes can be dialed into whatever yield and radius the Russians desire.
It doesn’t matter which way the wind blows! Tactical nukes exploded high in the atmosphere create orders of magnitude less fallout than regular nukes and the radioactive remains of the bomb disperses over a very wide area with minimal harm outside the target area.
This is not to say we shouldn’t help Ukraine. It’s just that Putin, if Crimea were ever threatened with invasion with Putin still in power, has nothing left to lose in going nuclear.
https://open.substack.com/pub/everythingelse/p/nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine-thinking?r=p3jgh&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Maybe Mr Putin is the sane one here. I’m not saying nice,I’m saying sane. Have we in U K all become 3 year olds that we need pantomime villains to boo and hiss at. If anyone is megalomaniac with a Hitler complex it’s looks more like Zelensky to me. And what sort of dreadful people elect as their leader a known liar and money embezzling amoral performer with known links to corruption. Oops,we do (as well). Birds of a Feather as they say.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

The Author seems to forget this is already a catastrophe for the 40m people of Ukraine as one would expect when your country is invaded by a murderous regime.
Putin will continue to sabre rattle the nuclear escalation threat. Each time he does he shows his weakness. His only hope is opinion formers in the West buy into it, as this Article to a degree does.
There is no tactical battlefield benefit to using these weapons. Amongst a number of reasons for that anyone looked at which way the prevailing winds blow in Ukraine? Anyone pondered if the Russian forces actually have sufficient bio-nuc-chemical warfare kit? No they’ll have flogged it on the black market like they did with half the rest of their kit.
It’s difficult to determine how close Putin might be to a Palace coup. Probably not that close yet, but he knows a move in this direction could change that. His mafia regime doesn’t want to destroy everything they have left. They also know what non western support they have would evaporate. Thus Putin knows he likely signs his own death warrant if he uses nuclear weapons. He’s rationale, just a murderous type.
One suspects though that the FSB closely monitors the degree of resolution in the West and probably has ways of picking up how many similar articles begin to populate western media. They’ll watch the trend to see if the more they threaten the more we cower. That doesn’t mean we should suppress different views at all, but does mean we should be aware of the game being played.

Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago

I am glad that this topic is increasingly talked about seriously. I can’t believe the amount of jingoism that has spread throughout the West, as if all previous disasters have been forgot overnight.

Truth is that both the US and Russia botched the Ukraine game and now, like failed gamblers, are trying to raise the stakes to get any win out of it, but this can only end in disaster. Unlike during the Cold War, where high level talks were essential to prevent escalation, this time all the red lines are violated, escalation risk be damned.

I can’t understand how people don’t realise that the great majority of wars ended in compromise. Moral purity and maximalist aims result in endless suffering (c.f. WW1). WW2 was pursued to such an end and we rightly celebrate that, but one should not neglect that it is also the most destructive war in history thus far. Not saying anyone should roll over, and I will resent any accusation of appeasement, but reality means that hard compromises must be made if peace is to have any chance. Tragically, peace and justice rarely go hand in hand. With time our weapons have made it too dangerous to pursue total defeat of our enemies. Ashes do not care for our moral righteousness.

If you want to defeat Russia, re-engage Kennan’s containment and wait until the demographic collapse crushes it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Janko M
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

When will that happen? In several decades time?. Ukraine was almost overrun and partitioned in 2022, of course if we include Crimea in 8 short years since then. Why shouldn’t all these ‘realpolitik’ arguments apply to Nazi Germany?

Tom Watson
Tom Watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

They did – the world war broke out because the Germans proved they couldn’t be trusted to adhere to a treaty they’d signed up to a few months prior by walking into Czechoslovakia, also showing that the war against Poland wasn’t just about Germans in Danzig/Gdansk (national self-determination being a principle the winners at Versailles struggled to coherently oppose), but had everything to do with the thousand-year Reich they kept banging on about, and with setting the stage for the showdown against the Soviets that had been on the cards since the Nazis came to power in 33.

So to answer your question, you can’t trust any settlement reached with a country that’s shown it won’t negotiate in good faith – and my understanding is it’s Ukraine that went most against the terms of both Minsk agreements although I’m sure there was plenty from both sides – and there’s also the straightforward fact that the Germans in 1939 didn’t have nuclear weapons. Had they been capable of wiping out London, Paris and Washington within the first few days of a war, presumably the Allies could have done the same to Berlin and the entire strategic situation would have been different. But in my view the equivalent to Ukraine in that analogy wouldn’t be Poland – it would be Austria. Would threatening nuclear war over the Anschluss have been credible? Almost certainly from Germany, almost certainly not from the Allies.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tom Watson
Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Watson

Minsk only bought time for Ukraine to rebuild its army.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Watson

Please educate yourself about what Minsk agreements were, how both sides are on record of openly saying they won’t adhere to them in certain cases and also familiarise yourself with the number of casualties in the last few years. The Minsk agreement argument is made from the same bullshit as “Ukrainian Nazis”.

What cannot be trusted is Russia first of all, starting with Budapest memorandum, guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty for giving up nukes (alogside the US and the UK, who are actually following this up by arming Ukraine now). Furthermore, the fantasy narratives aside, Putin in his invasion speech clearly said Russia had no intention of occupying any of Ukraine — now, they’ve already annexed large parts of it with Putin boasting how Azov sea become “an internal one”. There are no agreements that Russia won’t break as soon as they have resources and half-decent support at home — they have already cut all the ties with the Western world, so they don’t care. Using nuclear tho, they will lose China and India, so there’s that.

Last edited 1 year ago by zee upītis
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upītis

You are right. Neither side was prepared to sign Minsk 1 or 2. Biden is said to have pleaded with Zelensky to sign it just prior to 24/2. The Agreement suggested recognising a degree of autonomy for the 2014 annexed borders. Zelensky refused. Not saying it’s good or bad: just putting it out there.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upītis

You are right. Neither side was prepared to sign Minsk 1 or 2. Biden is said to have pleaded with Zelensky to sign it just prior to 24/2. The Agreement suggested recognising a degree of autonomy for the 2014 annexed borders. Zelensky refused. Not saying it’s good or bad: just putting it out there.

Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Watson

Minsk only bought time for Ukraine to rebuild its army.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Watson

Please educate yourself about what Minsk agreements were, how both sides are on record of openly saying they won’t adhere to them in certain cases and also familiarise yourself with the number of casualties in the last few years. The Minsk agreement argument is made from the same bullshit as “Ukrainian Nazis”.

What cannot be trusted is Russia first of all, starting with Budapest memorandum, guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty for giving up nukes (alogside the US and the UK, who are actually following this up by arming Ukraine now). Furthermore, the fantasy narratives aside, Putin in his invasion speech clearly said Russia had no intention of occupying any of Ukraine — now, they’ve already annexed large parts of it with Putin boasting how Azov sea become “an internal one”. There are no agreements that Russia won’t break as soon as they have resources and half-decent support at home — they have already cut all the ties with the Western world, so they don’t care. Using nuclear tho, they will lose China and India, so there’s that.

Last edited 1 year ago by zee upītis
Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Great question. First of all, on the demographic pressure, Peter Zeihan does some great analysis on the fact that this decade Russian demography will implode. Containment would not need to last 50 years like it did during the Cold War.

To answer the second question, WW2 was the last war the world could fight to a one-sided conclusion without risking the end of humanity. We no longer have that luxury of a feel-good conclusion. The end of the Cold War was proof that such overwhelming victories now only come from raw patience and the steady accumulation of advantage, not hot headed crusades.

US had to admit temporary setbacks to sustain the long-term goal. Nobody accused Nixon of appeasement for leaving Vietnam.

Last edited 1 year ago by Janko M
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

I must look up Peter Zeihan as a reference as I have not heard of him. Is there a link you can forward, or should I just look it up on Google Scholar? Thank you.

Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Disunited Nations – Peter Zeihan, probably the most clear-eyed analysis on global demographics and the geopolitical pressures it produces.

Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Disunited Nations – Peter Zeihan, probably the most clear-eyed analysis on global demographics and the geopolitical pressures it produces.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

I must look up Peter Zeihan as a reference as I have not heard of him. Is there a link you can forward, or should I just look it up on Google Scholar? Thank you.

Tom Watson
Tom Watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

They did – the world war broke out because the Germans proved they couldn’t be trusted to adhere to a treaty they’d signed up to a few months prior by walking into Czechoslovakia, also showing that the war against Poland wasn’t just about Germans in Danzig/Gdansk (national self-determination being a principle the winners at Versailles struggled to coherently oppose), but had everything to do with the thousand-year Reich they kept banging on about, and with setting the stage for the showdown against the Soviets that had been on the cards since the Nazis came to power in 33.

So to answer your question, you can’t trust any settlement reached with a country that’s shown it won’t negotiate in good faith – and my understanding is it’s Ukraine that went most against the terms of both Minsk agreements although I’m sure there was plenty from both sides – and there’s also the straightforward fact that the Germans in 1939 didn’t have nuclear weapons. Had they been capable of wiping out London, Paris and Washington within the first few days of a war, presumably the Allies could have done the same to Berlin and the entire strategic situation would have been different. But in my view the equivalent to Ukraine in that analogy wouldn’t be Poland – it would be Austria. Would threatening nuclear war over the Anschluss have been credible? Almost certainly from Germany, almost certainly not from the Allies.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tom Watson
Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Great question. First of all, on the demographic pressure, Peter Zeihan does some great analysis on the fact that this decade Russian demography will implode. Containment would not need to last 50 years like it did during the Cold War.

To answer the second question, WW2 was the last war the world could fight to a one-sided conclusion without risking the end of humanity. We no longer have that luxury of a feel-good conclusion. The end of the Cold War was proof that such overwhelming victories now only come from raw patience and the steady accumulation of advantage, not hot headed crusades.

US had to admit temporary setbacks to sustain the long-term goal. Nobody accused Nixon of appeasement for leaving Vietnam.

Last edited 1 year ago by Janko M
Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

The two world wars were wars of attrition – one side became exhausted of men and materials….how long can we wait for Russia to ‘expire’?

Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

We did it for 50 years with the USSR, which is why it was a Cold War, and it worked. But it required almost limitless patience. I would recommend reading Kennan’s original work on containment and the underlying understanding that beating the USSR without resulting in end of humanity would be a unique feat of grand strategy.

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

Indeed.
And that’s why the growing urge to give that grand containment strategy a sudden, violent push in the Ukraine is so damned tempting.
The West doesn’t think long-term. That’s why 50 years seems like forever. The Western/American mind is the kid in the backseat, 5 miles into the Big Road Trip asking, “Are we there yet?!”
Besides, our stunted version of RealPolitik tells us that Putin is gambling that we will overestimate his nuclear will and back away from doubling-down our Ukraine support. And so, in response to that stunted perception, we rationalize our Real Politik and we call that bluff. Except — if it’s not a bluff. If a seriously ill and aging Putin equates his own end with Russia’s…and is truly willing to sear his legacy into the Ukrainian soil as a ‘last gasp’??? Is calling that ‘bluff’ really worth that risk?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Davis

I loved it when he said “I’m not bluffing”.
That was months ago. Anybody remember?
If you don’t call his bluff, and give in, he will just use it again and again.

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Question always is: where do you draw a line?
If, indeed, it was an initial bluff (albeit a bluff about a real capability) …and if, indeed, we continue to aggressively call that bluff….does the nature of the West’s response tend to push Russia to demonstrate that the bluff is no longer a bluff?
And then all the other questions:
Is a dying Putin willing to use tactical nukes in the Ukraine? If the alternative is a humiliated Russian military….I wouldn’t put it past himIs the West (NATO / the US willing to counter with equivalent tactical nukes? Where? Inside the Ukraine against Russian troops? Zelensky going to be in favor a small series of nuclear exchanges on Ukrainian soil? Plus — I can’t see us giving control of tactical nukes to Ukrainian commanders…so this would be a direct act of aggression from the West against Russia (not simply funding & equipping proxies)Would Putin respond against the West? Or at least the portion of the West which is nearby? (Poland, Germany, et al)?
All of this has already been gamed out countless times on both sides. Contingencies have already been built. The question is: how much risk of what type are we willing to assume to ‘defend’ a nation which is not NATO..is not us? Our traditional tripwires are much further west than Kyiv…do we really want to push them that much further east into a geography which has been traditionally Soviet?

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Question always is: where do you draw a line?
If, indeed, it was an initial bluff (albeit a bluff about a real capability) …and if, indeed, we continue to aggressively call that bluff….does the nature of the West’s response tend to push Russia to demonstrate that the bluff is no longer a bluff?
And then all the other questions:
Is a dying Putin willing to use tactical nukes in the Ukraine? If the alternative is a humiliated Russian military….I wouldn’t put it past himIs the West (NATO / the US willing to counter with equivalent tactical nukes? Where? Inside the Ukraine against Russian troops? Zelensky going to be in favor a small series of nuclear exchanges on Ukrainian soil? Plus — I can’t see us giving control of tactical nukes to Ukrainian commanders…so this would be a direct act of aggression from the West against Russia (not simply funding & equipping proxies)Would Putin respond against the West? Or at least the portion of the West which is nearby? (Poland, Germany, et al)?
All of this has already been gamed out countless times on both sides. Contingencies have already been built. The question is: how much risk of what type are we willing to assume to ‘defend’ a nation which is not NATO..is not us? Our traditional tripwires are much further west than Kyiv…do we really want to push them that much further east into a geography which has been traditionally Soviet?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Davis

I loved it when he said “I’m not bluffing”.
That was months ago. Anybody remember?
If you don’t call his bluff, and give in, he will just use it again and again.

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

Indeed.
And that’s why the growing urge to give that grand containment strategy a sudden, violent push in the Ukraine is so damned tempting.
The West doesn’t think long-term. That’s why 50 years seems like forever. The Western/American mind is the kid in the backseat, 5 miles into the Big Road Trip asking, “Are we there yet?!”
Besides, our stunted version of RealPolitik tells us that Putin is gambling that we will overestimate his nuclear will and back away from doubling-down our Ukraine support. And so, in response to that stunted perception, we rationalize our Real Politik and we call that bluff. Except — if it’s not a bluff. If a seriously ill and aging Putin equates his own end with Russia’s…and is truly willing to sear his legacy into the Ukrainian soil as a ‘last gasp’??? Is calling that ‘bluff’ really worth that risk?

Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

We did it for 50 years with the USSR, which is why it was a Cold War, and it worked. But it required almost limitless patience. I would recommend reading Kennan’s original work on containment and the underlying understanding that beating the USSR without resulting in end of humanity would be a unique feat of grand strategy.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

Totally agree with the first part of your argument. It’s like the lead-in to, the prosecution of, and the Versailles peace after World War I. And for most observers, a game, not real in the least. But why we would want to defeat Russia and run a repeat of the cycle right back to 1991 where this all began is something you might want to consider. What Ukraine is experiencing today is a direct result of US policies since 1991. Many US policy-makers warned of it for decades, including Kennan. But they were all well-and-truly sidelined. Out with the irresolute doddery, deluded, half-measures types from the past. In with the new no-half-measures people of the future. In with the muscular democratic empire that will last a thousand years.

Andrew Holmes
Andrew Holmes
1 year ago

You sing the same songs that I’ve heard for 60+ years.

If anything goes south, it’s because of stupid US policies.

Much of the stupidity can be traced to the American Empire, the America that had more to do with the dismantling of the European empires than any other force. Ultimately even the Russian Empire was dismantled. As another commentator noted disparagingly, the American Empire is one of democratic, self-governing states. It is truly a new definition of Empire.

Anticipating another trope, Vietnam was a rational, though mistaken, response in the context of the USSR swallowing Eastern Europe, the demonstrated central direction of Communism from Moscow, and the Korean War.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Holmes

Without a free press but for the likes of UnHerd, which publishes arguments such as Thomas’s and the opposite, there is no real self-governing democracy. And that, my friend, is our world.

Completely free of the usual crazy conspiracist nonsense, of which most of us buy zip, zero, none, one can say that Orwell is genuinely upon us.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Andrew, you’re reading Unherd, therefore give it the respect it deserves. Publishing an Op Ed does not mean that the Editors agree with it. They’re publishing an Opinion, and that Opinion has generated a discussion where people read views that may differ to their own. Isn’t that the point?

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Samantha, please give my views the respect they deserve. In my comment, I have made precisely the point you make. That UnHerd is a true free press because while Thomas’s arguments are aired, so are the opposite. It appears you take umbrage at my comment because you dislike my views, which is fine for me, I can live with it, though not you. Why else jump to the wrong conclusion and offer a dollop of patronizing advice into the bargain?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

My apologies Andrew. I re read your post and I misinterpreted it.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thanks kindly, Samantha. I really do value this stellar publication. Journalism that rises above journalism. But thanks, Samantha. No harm meant either way.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thanks kindly, Samantha. I really do value this stellar publication. Journalism that rises above journalism. But thanks, Samantha. No harm meant either way.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

My apologies Andrew. I re read your post and I misinterpreted it.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Samantha, please give my views the respect they deserve. In my comment, I have made precisely the point you make. That UnHerd is a true free press because while Thomas’s arguments are aired, so are the opposite. It appears you take umbrage at my comment because you dislike my views, which is fine for me, I can live with it, though not you. Why else jump to the wrong conclusion and offer a dollop of patronizing advice into the bargain?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Andrew, you’re reading Unherd, therefore give it the respect it deserves. Publishing an Op Ed does not mean that the Editors agree with it. They’re publishing an Opinion, and that Opinion has generated a discussion where people read views that may differ to their own. Isn’t that the point?

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Holmes

PS – I used to rail against those who criticized US foreign policy, and was not only supportive of it, but very pleased to be involved. So no, my friend, my views are very, very, very far removed from some sort of leftist reactionary trope. To the contrary, they are drawn unwillingly from close experience, gradually over a long period, all of which leaves me saddened and disappointed. And I disagree now with the motives of the reactionary left. Even if some conclusions may coincide, I do not sympathize with where they’re coming from or why they are critical. My view is that political people are neuropaths and all that counts is outcomes for individuals. A politically-centric world-view is to me a sure sign of a neurotic mind.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Boughton
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

… which is why we need to massively de-centralise our politics.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Absolutely, Hugh, and to actively counter our statist political monomania. It’s become the core of our anti-cultural culture.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Absolutely, Hugh, and to actively counter our statist political monomania. It’s become the core of our anti-cultural culture.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

… which is why we need to massively de-centralise our politics.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Holmes

Without a free press but for the likes of UnHerd, which publishes arguments such as Thomas’s and the opposite, there is no real self-governing democracy. And that, my friend, is our world.

Completely free of the usual crazy conspiracist nonsense, of which most of us buy zip, zero, none, one can say that Orwell is genuinely upon us.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Holmes

PS – I used to rail against those who criticized US foreign policy, and was not only supportive of it, but very pleased to be involved. So no, my friend, my views are very, very, very far removed from some sort of leftist reactionary trope. To the contrary, they are drawn unwillingly from close experience, gradually over a long period, all of which leaves me saddened and disappointed. And I disagree now with the motives of the reactionary left. Even if some conclusions may coincide, I do not sympathize with where they’re coming from or why they are critical. My view is that political people are neuropaths and all that counts is outcomes for individuals. A politically-centric world-view is to me a sure sign of a neurotic mind.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Boughton
Andrew Holmes
Andrew Holmes
1 year ago

You sing the same songs that I’ve heard for 60+ years.

If anything goes south, it’s because of stupid US policies.

Much of the stupidity can be traced to the American Empire, the America that had more to do with the dismantling of the European empires than any other force. Ultimately even the Russian Empire was dismantled. As another commentator noted disparagingly, the American Empire is one of democratic, self-governing states. It is truly a new definition of Empire.

Anticipating another trope, Vietnam was a rational, though mistaken, response in the context of the USSR swallowing Eastern Europe, the demonstrated central direction of Communism from Moscow, and the Korean War.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

Winston Churchill once said: ‘The further back you look, the further forward you can see’.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

While he probably can’t be blamed for Marxism, Hegel once said: ‘We learn from history that man does not learn from history.’ No good looking back if you’re looking through a kaleidoscope.
To me one of the noble things about Churchill was that he ended up being life-long friends even with people with whom he vehemently disagreed. Perhaps the more he disagreed with them at first, the closer he became later. A marker of sense and sanity.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Boughton
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Here here Andrew.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Here here Andrew.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

While he probably can’t be blamed for Marxism, Hegel once said: ‘We learn from history that man does not learn from history.’ No good looking back if you’re looking through a kaleidoscope.
To me one of the noble things about Churchill was that he ended up being life-long friends even with people with whom he vehemently disagreed. Perhaps the more he disagreed with them at first, the closer he became later. A marker of sense and sanity.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Boughton
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

When will that happen? In several decades time?. Ukraine was almost overrun and partitioned in 2022, of course if we include Crimea in 8 short years since then. Why shouldn’t all these ‘realpolitik’ arguments apply to Nazi Germany?

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

The two world wars were wars of attrition – one side became exhausted of men and materials….how long can we wait for Russia to ‘expire’?

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

Totally agree with the first part of your argument. It’s like the lead-in to, the prosecution of, and the Versailles peace after World War I. And for most observers, a game, not real in the least. But why we would want to defeat Russia and run a repeat of the cycle right back to 1991 where this all began is something you might want to consider. What Ukraine is experiencing today is a direct result of US policies since 1991. Many US policy-makers warned of it for decades, including Kennan. But they were all well-and-truly sidelined. Out with the irresolute doddery, deluded, half-measures types from the past. In with the new no-half-measures people of the future. In with the muscular democratic empire that will last a thousand years.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Janko M

Winston Churchill once said: ‘The further back you look, the further forward you can see’.

Janko M
Janko M
1 year ago

I am glad that this topic is increasingly talked about seriously. I can’t believe the amount of jingoism that has spread throughout the West, as if all previous disasters have been forgot overnight.

Truth is that both the US and Russia botched the Ukraine game and now, like failed gamblers, are trying to raise the stakes to get any win out of it, but this can only end in disaster. Unlike during the Cold War, where high level talks were essential to prevent escalation, this time all the red lines are violated, escalation risk be damned.

I can’t understand how people don’t realise that the great majority of wars ended in compromise. Moral purity and maximalist aims result in endless suffering (c.f. WW1). WW2 was pursued to such an end and we rightly celebrate that, but one should not neglect that it is also the most destructive war in history thus far. Not saying anyone should roll over, and I will resent any accusation of appeasement, but reality means that hard compromises must be made if peace is to have any chance. Tragically, peace and justice rarely go hand in hand. With time our weapons have made it too dangerous to pursue total defeat of our enemies. Ashes do not care for our moral righteousness.

If you want to defeat Russia, re-engage Kennan’s containment and wait until the demographic collapse crushes it.

Last edited 1 year ago by Janko M
Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago

coming from the very Western strategists who disastrously botched every major military forecast over the past 20 years, from Iraq to Afghanistan.

This is the crux of the argument for me.

Will Will
Will Will
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Yes.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

But “Western” strategists aren’t fighting the war. Not sure the strategists “botched” everything. Anyway making sure Putin doesn’t win in Ukraine is very different from Afghanistan an Irag. The “West” cannot afford to lose..

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Ukraine is nothing like Afghanistan.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I think that is what I said….

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Happy to read your thoughts Isabel, if you write anywhere?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Happy to read your thoughts Isabel, if you write anywhere?

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I think that is what I said….

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

I think I disagree with all of your statements above.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Happy to read and discuss your argument Emre.

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Ok, let’s start with: “The “West” cannot afford to lose..”
What makes it impossible for the West to reach an agreement here. For example, can the West really not afford to lose Crimea?

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Ok, let’s start with: “The “West” cannot afford to lose..”
What makes it impossible for the West to reach an agreement here. For example, can the West really not afford to lose Crimea?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Happy to read and discuss your argument Emre.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Ukraine is nothing like Afghanistan.

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

I think I disagree with all of your statements above.

Will Will
Will Will
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

Yes.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Emre S

But “Western” strategists aren’t fighting the war. Not sure the strategists “botched” everything. Anyway making sure Putin doesn’t win in Ukraine is very different from Afghanistan an Irag. The “West” cannot afford to lose..

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago

coming from the very Western strategists who disastrously botched every major military forecast over the past 20 years, from Iraq to Afghanistan.

This is the crux of the argument for me.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

The title of this article is silly. If we were at war with Russia, they would have already been driven from Ukraine with their tails between their legs. The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend.
But, why shouldn’t we confront Russia? They are a third rate power that has violated all international norms by invading Ukraine. The only reason they have any standing in the world is their nuclear weapons, which are useless in a war of conquest.
Any escalation hurts Russia and helps the West. If they attack a NATO country, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, with ease. If they use a tactical nuke, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, again with ease. If they use strategic nukes the world ends. Hard to see the upside for Russia in that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Snapper AG
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

To defeat Russia you’d have to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades.

Peter Strider
Peter Strider
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Mmm, worked well for Napoleon didn’t it?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Not true at all. We defeated them in the Cold War without invading at all. They’re still getting over it though – still seem to think they’re a superpower/want to be. We just need to keep them in their box and stop them spreading trouble and misery around the world (which is what they’ll do if we do nothing).

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Technically true but that is not what the “West” wants to do. It just wants Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

We keep on hearing about Putin’s imminent death – where are we with that?

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron
Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Nobody knows really. Usually you dont travel around with your own medical entourage if you are fine though.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron
Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

Nobody knows really. Usually you dont travel around with your own medical entourage if you are fine though.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

To get Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine militarily you have, as I said, to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades. Even if their army was to be entirely driven from the country the fighting would go on with money and arms flowing from Russia to the separatists in Donbas and Crimea.
To end this war you have to find a constitutional solution for Ukraine that induces the separatists to abandon their alliance with Moscow.
Anyone who’s read a history book can see this quite clearly. Unfortunately there are very few people like that in Washington.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

No. Looking at Russian history, precedent suggests you just have to defeat the current Russian government severely enough and some sort of revolution will occur: Russo-Japanese War, the 1905 Revolution resulting in the establishment of the Duma and limits on the Tsar’s autocratic powers; WW I, the Bolshevik Revolution; Afghanistan (well, that and a few other setbacks in the last phase of the Cold War), the turn to glasnost and perestroika and with them the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

Good luck with that.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

Good luck with that.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

No. Looking at Russian history, precedent suggests you just have to defeat the current Russian government severely enough and some sort of revolution will occur: Russo-Japanese War, the 1905 Revolution resulting in the establishment of the Duma and limits on the Tsar’s autocratic powers; WW I, the Bolshevik Revolution; Afghanistan (well, that and a few other setbacks in the last phase of the Cold War), the turn to glasnost and perestroika and with them the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

We keep on hearing about Putin’s imminent death – where are we with that?

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

To get Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine militarily you have, as I said, to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades. Even if their army was to be entirely driven from the country the fighting would go on with money and arms flowing from Russia to the separatists in Donbas and Crimea.
To end this war you have to find a constitutional solution for Ukraine that induces the separatists to abandon their alliance with Moscow.
Anyone who’s read a history book can see this quite clearly. Unfortunately there are very few people like that in Washington.

Peter Strider
Peter Strider
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Mmm, worked well for Napoleon didn’t it?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Not true at all. We defeated them in the Cold War without invading at all. They’re still getting over it though – still seem to think they’re a superpower/want to be. We just need to keep them in their box and stop them spreading trouble and misery around the world (which is what they’ll do if we do nothing).

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Technically true but that is not what the “West” wants to do. It just wants Putin’s Russia out of Ukraine.

Gerard A
Gerard A
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The myth of US military might. Let’s look at their record. 1st World War arrived late. 2nd World War arrived late. Korean War draw. Bay of Pigs lost. 1st Gulf War inconclusive (see 2nd Gulf War). Afghanistan lost. 2nd Gulf War total balls up. Yes they did overthrow a government in Grenada but against anyone armed with more than a machete and a bunch of bananas it’s hardly a performance that would fill anyone with confidence.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

You forgot their epic conquest of Panama.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Getting the gist that Charles Stanhope is the historical scholar/point of reference? Loving it! I’m open to learning always

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Getting the gist that Charles Stanhope is the historical scholar/point of reference? Loving it! I’m open to learning always

B Stern
B Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

Operation Praying Mantis turned out OK and that’s what it would be like.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

Cold War (in which the Berlin Airlift, Korea, Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Nicaragua, Angola, Grenada — which mattered more than you think since it invalidated the Brezhnev Doctrine — Afghanistan — that one proxy on the American side — and the final push, faking better telemetry results on the SDI anti-missile tests to freek out the Soviet General Staff, were all just campaigns): Victory!
(cf. also France in the 100 Years War.)

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

You forget Bosnia and Kosovo.
The US came out pretty well in both.
Indeed, a good model for Donbas and Crimea.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

You forgot their epic conquest of Panama.

B Stern
B Stern
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

Operation Praying Mantis turned out OK and that’s what it would be like.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

Cold War (in which the Berlin Airlift, Korea, Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, Nicaragua, Angola, Grenada — which mattered more than you think since it invalidated the Brezhnev Doctrine — Afghanistan — that one proxy on the American side — and the final push, faking better telemetry results on the SDI anti-missile tests to freek out the Soviet General Staff, were all just campaigns): Victory!
(cf. also France in the 100 Years War.)

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Gerard A

You forget Bosnia and Kosovo.
The US came out pretty well in both.
Indeed, a good model for Donbas and Crimea.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend

Sure. Their track record is great.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The U.S. military today is more concerned with providing career paths for transgendered women than prosecuting war. How can someone kill an enemy when they spend time training not offend people who are different? Just imagine for a minute what would happen to an openly gay soldier captured behind Russian lines?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

The American fringe news boards like to make many jokes about the woke in your army. Is it really that bad?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Their Army maybe rubbish but their nuclear submarine force, and in particular their ‘Ohio class’ subs, could completely destroy either Russia or China in less than hours.

Perhaps there is an Admiral Strangelove in the wings.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Well I’ll take comfort in that I suppose, I was hoping it wouldn’t come to that kind of thing, I imagine they will shoot back.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That is what most thought in 1914 sadly.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

In February 2022 we were being told it’ll all be over by Xmas. But not which Xmas.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago

In February 2022 we were being told it’ll all be over by Xmas. But not which Xmas.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

With any luck they won’t have a chance to shoot back. Timing is everything in WAR!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That is what most thought in 1914 sadly.

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

With any luck they won’t have a chance to shoot back. Timing is everything in WAR!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

You’re good Charles! Ohio class? Impressed.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Well I’ll take comfort in that I suppose, I was hoping it wouldn’t come to that kind of thing, I imagine they will shoot back.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

You’re good Charles! Ohio class? Impressed.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Their Army maybe rubbish but their nuclear submarine force, and in particular their ‘Ohio class’ subs, could completely destroy either Russia or China in less than hours.

Perhaps there is an Admiral Strangelove in the wings.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

A sideline. I think the US have been pretty good so far, given they are dealing with provoking a nuclear power …

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

The American fringe news boards like to make many jokes about the woke in your army. Is it really that bad?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

A sideline. I think the US have been pretty good so far, given they are dealing with provoking a nuclear power …

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The U.S. military today is more concerned with providing career paths for transgendered women than prosecuting war. How can someone kill an enemy when they spend time training not offend people who are different? Just imagine for a minute what would happen to an openly gay soldier captured behind Russian lines?

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The ‘upside’ for Russia? Hell, the upside is we lose too.
Have you never experienced that nihilistic rage (most of us, as kids, do so regularly)? If I can’t do X then, by God, NO ONE is going to be able to do X — so there!
One thing to feel that and do that if we’re all 7 years old … and what’s being fought about is a Milky Way candy bar that you just threw in the mud so I wouldn’t get any either. Another thing if we’re talking about the World and the Strangelovian arithmetic of loss: “Mr. President, I’m not saying we wouldn’t get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.”

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Driven from Ukraine I doubt that,currently the US military has a lot of technology but not currently the manpower to either fight it or more importantly maintain it to fight.
Then there is the question of ability to replace losses incurred in a conventional war, against a military peer, American industry has been hollowed out over recent history and currently has problems replacing stock sent to the Ukraine so what chance in a full scale war against Russia.
Further I don’t believe that the American people would be very committed, Its all a log way a way its not in their interest.that may change should a nuke arrive over Washington but for now.
No I think you are seriously deluded if you think the US could take Russia in short order.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Like “we” did in Afghanistan.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

To defeat Russia you’d have to take Moscow and occupy the country, perhaps for decades.

Gerard A
Gerard A
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The myth of US military might. Let’s look at their record. 1st World War arrived late. 2nd World War arrived late. Korean War draw. Bay of Pigs lost. 1st Gulf War inconclusive (see 2nd Gulf War). Afghanistan lost. 2nd Gulf War total balls up. Yes they did overthrow a government in Grenada but against anyone armed with more than a machete and a bunch of bananas it’s hardly a performance that would fill anyone with confidence.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend

Sure. Their track record is great.

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The ‘upside’ for Russia? Hell, the upside is we lose too.
Have you never experienced that nihilistic rage (most of us, as kids, do so regularly)? If I can’t do X then, by God, NO ONE is going to be able to do X — so there!
One thing to feel that and do that if we’re all 7 years old … and what’s being fought about is a Milky Way candy bar that you just threw in the mud so I wouldn’t get any either. Another thing if we’re talking about the World and the Strangelovian arithmetic of loss: “Mr. President, I’m not saying we wouldn’t get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks.”

Tony Day
Tony Day
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Driven from Ukraine I doubt that,currently the US military has a lot of technology but not currently the manpower to either fight it or more importantly maintain it to fight.
Then there is the question of ability to replace losses incurred in a conventional war, against a military peer, American industry has been hollowed out over recent history and currently has problems replacing stock sent to the Ukraine so what chance in a full scale war against Russia.
Further I don’t believe that the American people would be very committed, Its all a log way a way its not in their interest.that may change should a nuke arrive over Washington but for now.
No I think you are seriously deluded if you think the US could take Russia in short order.

jane baker
jane baker
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Like “we” did in Afghanistan.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

The title of this article is silly. If we were at war with Russia, they would have already been driven from Ukraine with their tails between their legs. The US military could destroy Russia’s in a long weekend.
But, why shouldn’t we confront Russia? They are a third rate power that has violated all international norms by invading Ukraine. The only reason they have any standing in the world is their nuclear weapons, which are useless in a war of conquest.
Any escalation hurts Russia and helps the West. If they attack a NATO country, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, with ease. If they use a tactical nuke, NATO air and missile power destroys their military, again with ease. If they use strategic nukes the world ends. Hard to see the upside for Russia in that.

Last edited 1 year ago by Snapper AG
Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago

What if China decides it would be an easy way to defeat the west by sending equipment to Russia? They can rightly claim that they aren’t at war with anyone, just as NATO isn’t at war with Russia. If the West gets into an industrial competition, it will lose as it has spent decades destroying its industrial base.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

Not sure China wants to defeat the West – their ties with us are much more important than those with Russia; even though they appreciate Russia’s support at the UN, and as a distraction from their own human rights issues etc. A big difference, I think, between the Chinese system and the Russian – the former are essentially forward looking, pragmatic, are taking the people forward with them, and will be the/ a dominant power for centuries to come; the latter…not so much. More likely China would welcome a collapsed Russia, as they could expand into the vaccum – much as they are doing elsewhere around the world.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

To a point. Depends what is meant by “defeat”. China is playing the “long game”. At this stage China just wants to absorb Taiwan into its empire and push back against the “West”. It not so much wants to conquer the world but be left alone to do what it wants.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Indeed. As Ian Stewart says below: ‘China needs the west for at least the next twenty years’.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Indeed. As Ian Stewart says below: ‘China needs the west for at least the next twenty years’.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Throughout its history China has oscillated between periods ‘Empire’ and periods of either chaos or conquest.

I suspect that it is now on the cusp of another period of chaos, and deservedly so after its simply appalling record of barbarism and savagery since at least 1945.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Whenever China is ‘quiet’, it’s merely preparation. As Deng Xiaoping said, ‘Hide your strength, bide your time’. It’s all ‘hidden’ in the economic dependancies (allegiances) of the BRI.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Whenever China is ‘quiet’, it’s merely preparation. As Deng Xiaoping said, ‘Hide your strength, bide your time’. It’s all ‘hidden’ in the economic dependancies (allegiances) of the BRI.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

To a point. Depends what is meant by “defeat”. China is playing the “long game”. At this stage China just wants to absorb Taiwan into its empire and push back against the “West”. It not so much wants to conquer the world but be left alone to do what it wants.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Throughout its history China has oscillated between periods ‘Empire’ and periods of either chaos or conquest.

I suspect that it is now on the cusp of another period of chaos, and deservedly so after its simply appalling record of barbarism and savagery since at least 1945.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

No chance. China needs the west for at least the next twenty years.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

China will “defeat” the West exactly by working with it, not fighting against it.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upītis

Working ‘with it’? China is everywhere in the world creating economic dependencies that can be leveraged when it comes to voting in UN institutions. Not to mention their purpose built islands in the South China Sea. Just saying. Their expansion is more covert, shall we say.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I think the US Navy has the measure of Fu-Manchu & Co, and will confine them to dustbin of history in due course.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I think the US Navy has the measure of Fu-Manchu & Co, and will confine them to dustbin of history in due course.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upītis

Working ‘with it’? China is everywhere in the world creating economic dependencies that can be leveraged when it comes to voting in UN institutions. Not to mention their purpose built islands in the South China Sea. Just saying. Their expansion is more covert, shall we say.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

Not sure China wants to defeat the West – their ties with us are much more important than those with Russia; even though they appreciate Russia’s support at the UN, and as a distraction from their own human rights issues etc. A big difference, I think, between the Chinese system and the Russian – the former are essentially forward looking, pragmatic, are taking the people forward with them, and will be the/ a dominant power for centuries to come; the latter…not so much. More likely China would welcome a collapsed Russia, as they could expand into the vaccum – much as they are doing elsewhere around the world.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

No chance. China needs the west for at least the next twenty years.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob C

China will “defeat” the West exactly by working with it, not fighting against it.

Rob C
Rob C
1 year ago

What if China decides it would be an easy way to defeat the west by sending equipment to Russia? They can rightly claim that they aren’t at war with anyone, just as NATO isn’t at war with Russia. If the West gets into an industrial competition, it will lose as it has spent decades destroying its industrial base.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

The Overton window has shifted big time. I’ve got real mixed feelings about this conflict. I fully support the Ukraine to defend itself, but I have zero confidence in the European and American leadership. The fate of the world rests on the shoulders of Biden and Putin? God help us all.

Kerry Davie
Kerry Davie
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

And s/he’s probably not that interested.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Actually, they seem to have a very intelligent strategy. Their gradual approach seems to have worked well.
Each time more and better weapons are delivered, the increase is so gradual that even the Kremlin takes little umbrage.
A “boiled frog approach.”

David Simpson
David Simpson
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

And the language about retaking Crimea and Donbas may just be a way of signalling to Putin that if he carries on without seeking real negotiations he’ll end up losing what he had in February 2022. That may be the calculation, risky tho it is.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  David Simpson

Very good point.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  David Simpson

Very good point.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You think this is a strategy?. It may well work out that way but more by luck than judgement I would say. They seem to be constantly ill prepared at each stage.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Yes, it’s obviously a strategy.
Some people on here seem to think that the US military are universally ignorant and incompetent. I bet not one of them has any knowledge of the US military command or the calibre of their leaders (who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think).
The only operational difficulty the US are having with their strategy is that various European nations are being – quite typically – obstructive/not pulling their weight. But I guess they’re used to that by now.

Jonny Stud
Jonny Stud
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

We don’t think they are ignorant and incompetent. We KNOW they are in the pocket of the military industrial sector and that’s a major driver in all the wars USA involves itself in. A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flooding in so it’s a long and protracted war we get.
Potentially, those pesky europeans might have been more willing if this wasn’t the lived experience for most of their ‘allies’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_since_1945_with_British_victims

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

Jonny, do you seriously think that this is about making big bucks in the ‘military industrial complex’? With Wikipedia as your point of reference? I recognise that this is a much posited framework for many people. ‘A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flowing in?’ Okay. I hear you. Let’s look at what’s happening right now with both sides preparing for an offensive. As you know, when negotiations occur, they usually settle on the front lines that exist at the time of said negotiations. So, I’m not sure where you live. Let’s say that, wherever that country is, you were invaded by a third party who tried, violently and with arms, to annex some of your territory. Do you accept that violent attempt at annexation, or do you look to allies for help? Do you think that the profits being made in the ‘military industrial complexes’ are the primary drivers of this war?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

Decisions about war and peace in the US don’t really go through the board rooms of arms dealers.
Factually, most US industrialists are not “merchants of death” and do not profit from war.
And people who do make weapons don’t necessarily want war. They lobby for contracts for big ticket items.
And so far Ukraine has received almost none of those.
But agreed, it’s the simplest way to condemn war without putting any thought into it.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

Jonny, do you seriously think that this is about making big bucks in the ‘military industrial complex’? With Wikipedia as your point of reference? I recognise that this is a much posited framework for many people. ‘A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flowing in?’ Okay. I hear you. Let’s look at what’s happening right now with both sides preparing for an offensive. As you know, when negotiations occur, they usually settle on the front lines that exist at the time of said negotiations. So, I’m not sure where you live. Let’s say that, wherever that country is, you were invaded by a third party who tried, violently and with arms, to annex some of your territory. Do you accept that violent attempt at annexation, or do you look to allies for help? Do you think that the profits being made in the ‘military industrial complexes’ are the primary drivers of this war?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonny Stud

Decisions about war and peace in the US don’t really go through the board rooms of arms dealers.
Factually, most US industrialists are not “merchants of death” and do not profit from war.
And people who do make weapons don’t necessarily want war. They lobby for contracts for big ticket items.
And so far Ukraine has received almost none of those.
But agreed, it’s the simplest way to condemn war without putting any thought into it.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

‘(who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think)’
Funniest thing I’ve read all day. Your evidence is? Do have first hand knowledge of us military command then? Have you been sizing up the ‘calibre of their leaders’? Do you use biden as a yard stick? How much ‘calibre’ do think he’s got?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Given where we were on 25 Feb, and where we are now, the US military commanders seems light years ahead of Putin’s commanders.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Hello Mr logan. Shall we both play nicely today?
I was really teasing Mr B, I am very much hoping you are correct.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Hello Mr logan. Shall we both play nicely today?
I was really teasing Mr B, I am very much hoping you are correct.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Given where we were on 25 Feb, and where we are now, the US military commanders seems light years ahead of Putin’s commanders.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I think the US response has been great.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Is this the same General Milley who tells us climate change is one of the biggest military threat facing the US? Is this the same military leadership that abandons meritocracy in favour of DEI? Is this the same military that is absolutely floundering when it comes to recruitment?

Jonny Stud
Jonny Stud
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

We don’t think they are ignorant and incompetent. We KNOW they are in the pocket of the military industrial sector and that’s a major driver in all the wars USA involves itself in. A quick resolution doesn’t keep the dollars flooding in so it’s a long and protracted war we get.
Potentially, those pesky europeans might have been more willing if this wasn’t the lived experience for most of their ‘allies’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._friendly-fire_incidents_since_1945_with_British_victims

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

‘(who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think)’
Funniest thing I’ve read all day. Your evidence is? Do have first hand knowledge of us military command then? Have you been sizing up the ‘calibre of their leaders’? Do you use biden as a yard stick? How much ‘calibre’ do think he’s got?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I think the US response has been great.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Is this the same General Milley who tells us climate change is one of the biggest military threat facing the US? Is this the same military leadership that abandons meritocracy in favour of DEI? Is this the same military that is absolutely floundering when it comes to recruitment?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

I disagree. I think the responses have had a lot of coordinated forethought. We are dealing with a nuclear power. I honestly can’t fault the response to date.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Yes, it’s obviously a strategy.
Some people on here seem to think that the US military are universally ignorant and incompetent. I bet not one of them has any knowledge of the US military command or the calibre of their leaders (who are a lot smarter than the armchair critics here seem to think).
The only operational difficulty the US are having with their strategy is that various European nations are being – quite typically – obstructive/not pulling their weight. But I guess they’re used to that by now.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

I disagree. I think the responses have had a lot of coordinated forethought. We are dealing with a nuclear power. I honestly can’t fault the response to date.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

It works and works and works. Until it doesn’t.

David Simpson
David Simpson
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

And the language about retaking Crimea and Donbas may just be a way of signalling to Putin that if he carries on without seeking real negotiations he’ll end up losing what he had in February 2022. That may be the calculation, risky tho it is.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You think this is a strategy?. It may well work out that way but more by luck than judgement I would say. They seem to be constantly ill prepared at each stage.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

It works and works and works. Until it doesn’t.

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

There’s always CornPop!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Davis

What on earth is that? A respected academic resource?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Davis

What on earth is that? A respected academic resource?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

May I ask a question? What is the ‘Overton window’? Happy to google but happier still to rely on your expertise as a first point of reference.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

The Overton window is the shifting of acceptable policy options. What is considered unacceptable on any given day is suddenly acceptable a week or a month or a year later. But it’s not usually sudden. The window is typically moved incrementally. A small shift here, another one there and boom, you’re on the other side of the room. Kind of insidious really, depending on your perspective on any given issue.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

The Overton window is the shifting of acceptable policy options. What is considered unacceptable on any given day is suddenly acceptable a week or a month or a year later. But it’s not usually sudden. The window is typically moved incrementally. A small shift here, another one there and boom, you’re on the other side of the room. Kind of insidious really, depending on your perspective on any given issue.

Kerry Davie
Kerry Davie
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

And s/he’s probably not that interested.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Actually, they seem to have a very intelligent strategy. Their gradual approach seems to have worked well.
Each time more and better weapons are delivered, the increase is so gradual that even the Kremlin takes little umbrage.
A “boiled frog approach.”

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

There’s always CornPop!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

May I ask a question? What is the ‘Overton window’? Happy to google but happier still to rely on your expertise as a first point of reference.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

The Overton window has shifted big time. I’ve got real mixed feelings about this conflict. I fully support the Ukraine to defend itself, but I have zero confidence in the European and American leadership. The fate of the world rests on the shoulders of Biden and Putin? God help us all.

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
1 year ago

That Russia perceives Ukraine “to be an existential threat” is it rather disingenuous way of saying “the thugs in the Kremlin have resurrected the post WWII propaganda tactic of accusing independent-minded people of being “fascist” as a pretext to deprive them of their rights”.

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
1 year ago

That Russia perceives Ukraine “to be an existential threat” is it rather disingenuous way of saying “the thugs in the Kremlin have resurrected the post WWII propaganda tactic of accusing independent-minded people of being “fascist” as a pretext to deprive them of their rights”.

J Bryant
J Bryant
1 year ago

Thank you for this article. We should be seeing many more such articles and discussions across the media but, of course, we don’t and probably never will.
The Biden administration, and some (not all) European leaders, have constantly raised the stakes, crossed the various red lines mentioned by the author, and have convinced themselves Russia will never use nukes. That’s what Biden’s strategy in Ukraine ultimately rests on: that Russia is a nuclear power they can treat like a non-nuclear power. That strategy will work until the day it doesn’t.

Karen Fleming
Karen Fleming
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I am confused by talk of negotiation. If Russia invaded the United States, would we “negotiate” and give them part of our land? Or if strangers invaded your home, would you negotiate and let them live with you? I know the factor of nuclear bombs exists, but what is one to do? Just keep letting the bully get his way?? Surely some other solution exists. I am just not inventive enough to think of it. Maybe others can think outside the box.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

You see – you ask a very straw man question because : Russia DID NOT invade USA.

It is none of our business. No reason to cause a global depression, cause a million deaths in the reigon from fighting, and cause a billion to starve in the coming Global Famine this IS Causing! No Need to cause WWIII over the two most corrupt nations in the world – who have been at war as often as not, for 2000+ years, having a regional conflict.

If you and your neighbor get into a fight is is reasonable we kill both of you, burn down both houses and make your families refugees to stop the fight? Because you think that is the best response.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I’d say it’s more like preventing an adult beating up a child personally, rather than your pyromaniac analogy

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

“…We wants it…precious…”
Indeed, the fact that the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly voted for Zelensky, and to join the EU–plus the fact that five European countries abut Ukraine has nothing to do with it.
If Putin wants it, he must have it. Or at least a consolation prize.
ALL shall have prizes!

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

That argument only works for democracies that are ethnically and culturally homogeneous – otherwise it’s simply the tyranny of the majority.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

And your alternative to majority rule is…
…minority rule?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Proportional representation, regional assemblies, power-sharing as in NI … there are lots of constitutional ways that hostile minorities can be reconciled. This war won’t be over until the separatists have a strong inducement to end their alliance with Moscow. Continuing to kill them in large numbers isn’t likely to achieve that.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

The separatists cannot be induced to ‘end their alliance with Moscow’ as long as they think there is a chance they can stay with Russia – and as long as as Russia keeps helping and financing them. Being an ethnic minority in someone else nation state is not an ideal position, particularly after you took the wrong side in a war. They might be convinced to make the best of a bad job and stop making trouble if they got a good offer *after* it was clear that anschluss back to Russia was nto on the cards.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

The separatists cannot be induced to ‘end their alliance with Moscow’ as long as they think there is a chance they can stay with Russia – and as long as as Russia keeps helping and financing them. Being an ethnic minority in someone else nation state is not an ideal position, particularly after you took the wrong side in a war. They might be convinced to make the best of a bad job and stop making trouble if they got a good offer *after* it was clear that anschluss back to Russia was nto on the cards.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Proportional representation, regional assemblies, power-sharing as in NI … there are lots of constitutional ways that hostile minorities can be reconciled. This war won’t be over until the separatists have a strong inducement to end their alliance with Moscow. Continuing to kill them in large numbers isn’t likely to achieve that.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

And your alternative to majority rule is…
…minority rule?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

That argument only works for democracies that are ethnically and culturally homogeneous – otherwise it’s simply the tyranny of the majority.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Clearly, history isn’t your strong point. Russia and Ukraine have ‘not been in a war’ for 2000 years since neither country has existed for that long, boundaries have hugely changed and for most of the last 300 years the majority, (but not all) of the Ukrainian speaking territories were conquered by Russia.

Russia invaded Ukraine, just as Hitler invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. Poland by the way is hawkish on this issue, having been dismembered twice in history by – Russia and Germany (in fact Prussia). A very few on your side of the argument, but only a very few, make the analogous point that Britain and later America should not have fought Germany in the 1940s. Why did we?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

However it is undeniable that 1914 & 1939 were catastrophic for both Britain and the British Empire.

As a neutral observer, the famed Spanish philosopher Georges Santayana put it thus in 1912:
“Never since the heroic days of Greece has the
world had such a sweet, just, boyish master. It will be a black day for the human race when scientific blackguards, conspirators, churls, and fanatics manage to supplant him.”

For three centuries we had managed the business of war rather well, and much profit and plunder was the happy result. However all was to be thrown away by the manic decisions of both Asquith and Chamberlain.

This time we must ask ourselves is Ukraine really worth a Nuclear War?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago

At a minimum you need to ask yourself whether the British Empire would have continued with its happy profit and plunder once the Kaiser’s or Hitler’s Germany was in full control of the continent. Arguably you might have done even worse if you had chosen a future as a German vassal state – or if you had postponed the war with Germany till all the others were conquered and it had come to your turn.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Given the way Moltke mismanaged the Schlieffen Plan, I doubt if Germany would have achieved an outstanding victory in 1914.
Later the ineptitude of Falkenhayn at Verdun, and Ludendorff’s ludicrous Spring Offensive of March 1918, rather confirm that Germany was NOT infallible.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

I take it back. Do you lecture in the War Studies Department at a Kings? Your knowledge is brilliant! (I studied there too – also War Studies – Masters)

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

No.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

That was merely a form of flattery, given your knowledge or military strategists and battles. My initial surmise remains: Classics/History scholar, private school, time in the army. 🙂 No bad thing!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

That was merely a form of flattery, given your knowledge or military strategists and battles. My initial surmise remains: Classics/History scholar, private school, time in the army. 🙂 No bad thing!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

No.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

I take it back. Do you lecture in the War Studies Department at a Kings? Your knowledge is brilliant! (I studied there too – also War Studies – Masters)

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Given the way Moltke mismanaged the Schlieffen Plan, I doubt if Germany would have achieved an outstanding victory in 1914.
Later the ineptitude of Falkenhayn at Verdun, and Ludendorff’s ludicrous Spring Offensive of March 1918, rather confirm that Germany was NOT infallible.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

You studied History or Classics in a private school, am I right? No criticism! I read your posts with interest.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Yes.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Yes.

B Stern
B Stern
1 year ago

No. We need to make Putin ask himself that question.
In fact I’m sure he has and already knows the answer.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Stern

Sadly I think you maybe correct.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Stern

Sadly I think you maybe correct.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago

At a minimum you need to ask yourself whether the British Empire would have continued with its happy profit and plunder once the Kaiser’s or Hitler’s Germany was in full control of the continent. Arguably you might have done even worse if you had chosen a future as a German vassal state – or if you had postponed the war with Germany till all the others were conquered and it had come to your turn.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

You studied History or Classics in a private school, am I right? No criticism! I read your posts with interest.

B Stern
B Stern
1 year ago

No. We need to make Putin ask himself that question.
In fact I’m sure he has and already knows the answer.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

However it is undeniable that 1914 & 1939 were catastrophic for both Britain and the British Empire.

As a neutral observer, the famed Spanish philosopher Georges Santayana put it thus in 1912:
“Never since the heroic days of Greece has the
world had such a sweet, just, boyish master. It will be a black day for the human race when scientific blackguards, conspirators, churls, and fanatics manage to supplant him.”

For three centuries we had managed the business of war rather well, and much profit and plunder was the happy result. However all was to be thrown away by the manic decisions of both Asquith and Chamberlain.

This time we must ask ourselves is Ukraine really worth a Nuclear War?

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

What would ever make it “our business”?. Indeed what is our business?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Excellent question Isabel.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Excellent question Isabel.

Liam F
Liam F
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

At what point does anything ever become “our business”?
If China nuked Hawaii would USA expect support from others? I mean, it did belong tothe Polynesians for centuries… It’s only a little island..not worth USA actually risking WWIII over surely?..
Sounds like you support democracy. But only in theory.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Ditto. None of this is America’s business. The Minsk provocation is the catalyst for this one.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Keep fighting the good fight, they are all good points. Perhaps they will realise what they are calling for eventually….

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

I’d say it’s more like preventing an adult beating up a child personally, rather than your pyromaniac analogy

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

“…We wants it…precious…”
Indeed, the fact that the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly voted for Zelensky, and to join the EU–plus the fact that five European countries abut Ukraine has nothing to do with it.
If Putin wants it, he must have it. Or at least a consolation prize.
ALL shall have prizes!

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Clearly, history isn’t your strong point. Russia and Ukraine have ‘not been in a war’ for 2000 years since neither country has existed for that long, boundaries have hugely changed and for most of the last 300 years the majority, (but not all) of the Ukrainian speaking territories were conquered by Russia.

Russia invaded Ukraine, just as Hitler invaded Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland. Poland by the way is hawkish on this issue, having been dismembered twice in history by – Russia and Germany (in fact Prussia). A very few on your side of the argument, but only a very few, make the analogous point that Britain and later America should not have fought Germany in the 1940s. Why did we?

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

What would ever make it “our business”?. Indeed what is our business?

Liam F
Liam F
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

At what point does anything ever become “our business”?
If China nuked Hawaii would USA expect support from others? I mean, it did belong tothe Polynesians for centuries… It’s only a little island..not worth USA actually risking WWIII over surely?..
Sounds like you support democracy. But only in theory.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Ditto. None of this is America’s business. The Minsk provocation is the catalyst for this one.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Keep fighting the good fight, they are all good points. Perhaps they will realise what they are calling for eventually….

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

“Just keep letting the bully get his way??”
This accusation applies more to America and NATO than it does to Russia. The provocation is all on the WEST in this case.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

I think there’s been a good bit of agro from both sides to be fair. I think the us and Russia should calm down. Diplomacy. Some sort of negotiation. Understanding that everyone has had a part to play.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

I think there’s been a good bit of agro from both sides to be fair. I think the us and Russia should calm down. Diplomacy. Some sort of negotiation. Understanding that everyone has had a part to play.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

Then why isn’t the West giving more planes and at least 300 tanks to the Ukraine immediately? What the West recently promised is too little and will make no impact on the outcome of the war. It is like a prolonged suicide note for the Ukraine. I recently listened to a seminar/discussion by the former Austrian Foreign Secretary and a couple of military experts, who said that the situation for the Ukraine is dire, which we hardly ever hear in the West. Probably 100 thousand of Ukrainian soldiers died already and Russia is ready to send 300 thousand more soldiers into the Ukraine. What will happen at the Russian Spring Offensive? Will the the Ukrainian pilots be trained by then and the promised tanks delivered (all very doubtful)? Are huge American Abrams tanks ready to go and can the Ukrainian infrastructure (like bridges etc.) handle them? I can see no Western solution right now, and no strategy to what the sable rattling of the current Boris Johnsons and Joe Bidens of this world want to achieve?

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Stephanie I love your ‘prolonged suicide note for Ukraine’. Michael McFaul wrote an article for Foreign Affairs in Jan ’23 in which he shares your views: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2021-01-19/how-contain-putins-russia

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The Russian “spring offensive” has been going on for weeks. And it’s not doing very well.
One thing I do know is that no army can train up a modern armoured force in just three months. Indeed, how many modern tanks Russia can still field is questionable. The new formations will have no better luck than the old.
Putin should have stayed on the defensive throughout the winter, using his “mobiks” to strengthen defences. That was almost certainly Surovikin’s recommendation–for which he was promptly demoted.
Instead Putin’s attacking, simply to try and take all of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.
Things will get even worse for Russia in future.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Russia has 12000 tanks I believe,and produces 850+ a year. How many does America make in a year?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Stephanie I love your ‘prolonged suicide note for Ukraine’. Michael McFaul wrote an article for Foreign Affairs in Jan ’23 in which he shares your views: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2021-01-19/how-contain-putins-russia

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The Russian “spring offensive” has been going on for weeks. And it’s not doing very well.
One thing I do know is that no army can train up a modern armoured force in just three months. Indeed, how many modern tanks Russia can still field is questionable. The new formations will have no better luck than the old.
Putin should have stayed on the defensive throughout the winter, using his “mobiks” to strengthen defences. That was almost certainly Surovikin’s recommendation–for which he was promptly demoted.
Instead Putin’s attacking, simply to try and take all of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.
Things will get even worse for Russia in future.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Russia has 12000 tanks I believe,and produces 850+ a year. How many does America make in a year?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

What if Russia had ballistic missiles stationed in Canada or Mexico,would that be ok?

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

You see – you ask a very straw man question because : Russia DID NOT invade USA.

It is none of our business. No reason to cause a global depression, cause a million deaths in the reigon from fighting, and cause a billion to starve in the coming Global Famine this IS Causing! No Need to cause WWIII over the two most corrupt nations in the world – who have been at war as often as not, for 2000+ years, having a regional conflict.

If you and your neighbor get into a fight is is reasonable we kill both of you, burn down both houses and make your families refugees to stop the fight? Because you think that is the best response.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

“Just keep letting the bully get his way??”
This accusation applies more to America and NATO than it does to Russia. The provocation is all on the WEST in this case.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

Then why isn’t the West giving more planes and at least 300 tanks to the Ukraine immediately? What the West recently promised is too little and will make no impact on the outcome of the war. It is like a prolonged suicide note for the Ukraine. I recently listened to a seminar/discussion by the former Austrian Foreign Secretary and a couple of military experts, who said that the situation for the Ukraine is dire, which we hardly ever hear in the West. Probably 100 thousand of Ukrainian soldiers died already and Russia is ready to send 300 thousand more soldiers into the Ukraine. What will happen at the Russian Spring Offensive? Will the the Ukrainian pilots be trained by then and the promised tanks delivered (all very doubtful)? Are huge American Abrams tanks ready to go and can the Ukrainian infrastructure (like bridges etc.) handle them? I can see no Western solution right now, and no strategy to what the sable rattling of the current Boris Johnsons and Joe Bidens of this world want to achieve?

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

What if Russia had ballistic missiles stationed in Canada or Mexico,would that be ok?

Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Not sure if we can accept blackmail threats as Russia rebuilds their previous empire. Where do you draw a line? Appeasement rarely works, see 1918, ww1, ww2, for those doing a forced merger.

Karen Fleming
Karen Fleming
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I am confused by talk of negotiation. If Russia invaded the United States, would we “negotiate” and give them part of our land? Or if strangers invaded your home, would you negotiate and let them live with you? I know the factor of nuclear bombs exists, but what is one to do? Just keep letting the bully get his way?? Surely some other solution exists. I am just not inventive enough to think of it. Maybe others can think outside the box.

Hardee Hodges
Hardee Hodges
1 year ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Not sure if we can accept blackmail threats as Russia rebuilds their previous empire. Where do you draw a line? Appeasement rarely works, see 1918, ww1, ww2, for those doing a forced merger.

J Bryant
J Bryant
1 year ago

Thank you for this article. We should be seeing many more such articles and discussions across the media but, of course, we don’t and probably never will.
The Biden administration, and some (not all) European leaders, have constantly raised the stakes, crossed the various red lines mentioned by the author, and have convinced themselves Russia will never use nukes. That’s what Biden’s strategy in Ukraine ultimately rests on: that Russia is a nuclear power they can treat like a non-nuclear power. That strategy will work until the day it doesn’t.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Here is my line of reasoning (which I would rather not put to the test). There are two types of existential threat: A threat to the existence of a state, and a threat to the existence of an individual leader. If Putin loses this war and hence power, his own life is at risk. That cannot be said of any Western leader. Putin is therefore the one person who might be tempted to press the Red Button if all other options have been closed down. But the Button is not directly linked to a missile, it is linked to a chain of command. That chain of command consists of other humans. One or more of these human links might well consider the following calculation. If I proceed then I risk my own life, and the lives of my family, in any resultant conflagration. If I don’t proceed then Putin is probably thrown from a top floor window and I, and my family, probably survive. What to do! The great weakness in my reasoning is that each link in the chain might leave it to the next guy to save his family.
When this conflict started, it was my, very unpopular, view that we should keep clear of involvement, but you cannot wind back the clock.
As a general point I would say that nuclear weapons are unusable in a nuclear-armed world. It is all a Great Bluff. That is why they haven’t been used. And don’t mention 1945 because that doesn’t count.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Notice that Putin is not rattling his nuclear sabre, and hasn’t been for quite a while.
The West has wisely taken a “boiled frog approach” gradually ratcheting up the support.
And there’s really nothing Vova can do about it.

Justin Clark
Justin Clark
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I fully support the assistance we are giving to Ukraine to prevent Russia going further west. I also think the boiled frog approach is superb too.
Rob C’s comment about China is a very good one and a concern… that would be the ultimate escalation… Dangerous times – but Putin started it.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yeah good metaphor, the writer seems to have abandoned an understanding of real politik with the gradualist approach of the west, which will bleed Russia dry pretty soon (with Ukraine possibly sacrificed); and which deprives China of a previously useful ally, whilst China is slowly being surrounded by agreements and alliances of countries defending themselves from its influence.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

What’s ‘Vova’? I love the ‘boiled frog approach’ expression! I do believe it’s actually utilised in military circles!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

V. V. Putin = Vova Putin.
HIs nickname.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thank you

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thank you

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

V. V. Putin = Vova Putin.
HIs nickname.

Justin Clark
Justin Clark
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I fully support the assistance we are giving to Ukraine to prevent Russia going further west. I also think the boiled frog approach is superb too.
Rob C’s comment about China is a very good one and a concern… that would be the ultimate escalation… Dangerous times – but Putin started it.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yeah good metaphor, the writer seems to have abandoned an understanding of real politik with the gradualist approach of the west, which will bleed Russia dry pretty soon (with Ukraine possibly sacrificed); and which deprives China of a previously useful ally, whilst China is slowly being surrounded by agreements and alliances of countries defending themselves from its influence.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

What’s ‘Vova’? I love the ‘boiled frog approach’ expression! I do believe it’s actually utilised in military circles!

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Generally agree but your line of reasoning seems to presume all nuclear weapons are the same. What about TNWs (Tactical Nuclear Weapons) or Neutron bombs. Whilst still unlikely he would use them more likely than ICBMs etc.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Those weapons won’t achieve any significant military benefit on dispersed forces across the Ukrainian countryside, so would only have an impact on concentrated civilian populations. If he attacked civilians with these weapons then everyone in the world would immediately cease to cooperate with Russia.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Stewart
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Isabel, I refer you to Michael Coleman’s post above, in which he gives an excellent description of TNW’s. But yes, I hear you. There are marked differences and various degrees of escalation: many of which don’t touch on nuclear of any kind. (Undersea cables, cyber attacks on financial institutions, biological warfare – dread the thought…) Putin has so many more options before he resorts to nuclear. The arguments posited within these comments below the article suggest that Putin would be in a losing game to evoke the nuclear threat, even TNW’s, as (despite the localised threshold and risk of fallout, as Michael Coleman so clearly and expertly points out), Putin would lose a lot of the support he currently has. Whilst China have taken a ‘neutral’ stance (though they spout Putin’s propaganda domestically), they have said (publicly) that they would draw the line at nuclear use.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Those weapons won’t achieve any significant military benefit on dispersed forces across the Ukrainian countryside, so would only have an impact on concentrated civilian populations. If he attacked civilians with these weapons then everyone in the world would immediately cease to cooperate with Russia.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Stewart
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Isabel, I refer you to Michael Coleman’s post above, in which he gives an excellent description of TNW’s. But yes, I hear you. There are marked differences and various degrees of escalation: many of which don’t touch on nuclear of any kind. (Undersea cables, cyber attacks on financial institutions, biological warfare – dread the thought…) Putin has so many more options before he resorts to nuclear. The arguments posited within these comments below the article suggest that Putin would be in a losing game to evoke the nuclear threat, even TNW’s, as (despite the localised threshold and risk of fallout, as Michael Coleman so clearly and expertly points out), Putin would lose a lot of the support he currently has. Whilst China have taken a ‘neutral’ stance (though they spout Putin’s propaganda domestically), they have said (publicly) that they would draw the line at nuclear use.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The red button is linked to a chain of command with other humans indeed. But we have seen how quickly Putin demotes or fires people, (and in this case, could be within that red button chain of command), who disagree with him. So somewhere down the line, he’ll get people within that chain of command who agree with him. That’s a problem. If you place Prigozhin or Kadyrov within that ‘chain of command’, we have a problem …

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Maybe, but my point was that only Putin has his life on the line. The others will desert him the moment they believe that he is putting them at risk. I would. Wouldn’t you?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Everything I thought I knew was put to the test on the 24th February last year. Despite the accurate warnings from US intelligence from November (at least), onwards, I genuinely didn’t believe that Putin would embark on a war of WW2 scale physical aggression. I would hope his entourage would desert him, but it hasn’t happened thus far… (And since Covid he has become paranoid and shrunk his ‘entourage’ to those who share his aggressive, risky, imperialist views). I admired Macron, who despite much criticism, tried to talk to Putin. (You don’t try, you don’t get). Not his fault that Putin already had his agenda set and it wasn’t changing. In Macron’s defence, Sarkozy (also representing France), negotiated well in the August 2008 Russo-Georgia war.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

We don’t disagree on much. Only that his entourage will likely desert him when they see their own lives on the line, at which point imperialist fantasies become less important. In my experience the most bombastic run the fastest. (Lets hope Putin hasn’t put something in the vodka)

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

We don’t disagree on much. Only that his entourage will likely desert him when they see their own lives on the line, at which point imperialist fantasies become less important. In my experience the most bombastic run the fastest. (Lets hope Putin hasn’t put something in the vodka)

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Everything I thought I knew was put to the test on the 24th February last year. Despite the accurate warnings from US intelligence from November (at least), onwards, I genuinely didn’t believe that Putin would embark on a war of WW2 scale physical aggression. I would hope his entourage would desert him, but it hasn’t happened thus far… (And since Covid he has become paranoid and shrunk his ‘entourage’ to those who share his aggressive, risky, imperialist views). I admired Macron, who despite much criticism, tried to talk to Putin. (You don’t try, you don’t get). Not his fault that Putin already had his agenda set and it wasn’t changing. In Macron’s defence, Sarkozy (also representing France), negotiated well in the August 2008 Russo-Georgia war.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Maybe, but my point was that only Putin has his life on the line. The others will desert him the moment they believe that he is putting them at risk. I would. Wouldn’t you?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Notice that Putin is not rattling his nuclear sabre, and hasn’t been for quite a while.
The West has wisely taken a “boiled frog approach” gradually ratcheting up the support.
And there’s really nothing Vova can do about it.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Generally agree but your line of reasoning seems to presume all nuclear weapons are the same. What about TNWs (Tactical Nuclear Weapons) or Neutron bombs. Whilst still unlikely he would use them more likely than ICBMs etc.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

The red button is linked to a chain of command with other humans indeed. But we have seen how quickly Putin demotes or fires people, (and in this case, could be within that red button chain of command), who disagree with him. So somewhere down the line, he’ll get people within that chain of command who agree with him. That’s a problem. If you place Prigozhin or Kadyrov within that ‘chain of command’, we have a problem …

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Here is my line of reasoning (which I would rather not put to the test). There are two types of existential threat: A threat to the existence of a state, and a threat to the existence of an individual leader. If Putin loses this war and hence power, his own life is at risk. That cannot be said of any Western leader. Putin is therefore the one person who might be tempted to press the Red Button if all other options have been closed down. But the Button is not directly linked to a missile, it is linked to a chain of command. That chain of command consists of other humans. One or more of these human links might well consider the following calculation. If I proceed then I risk my own life, and the lives of my family, in any resultant conflagration. If I don’t proceed then Putin is probably thrown from a top floor window and I, and my family, probably survive. What to do! The great weakness in my reasoning is that each link in the chain might leave it to the next guy to save his family.
When this conflict started, it was my, very unpopular, view that we should keep clear of involvement, but you cannot wind back the clock.
As a general point I would say that nuclear weapons are unusable in a nuclear-armed world. It is all a Great Bluff. That is why they haven’t been used. And don’t mention 1945 because that doesn’t count.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

Clearly we are in a terrible situation with no easy way out. The West has certainly made many errors in its dealings with Russia, although these are often greatly exaggerated. For example it was Russian economists you wanted to rapidly reconstruct the Russian economy on capitalist lines – as was the received wisdom at the time.

However I’d have a lot more respect for Fazi’s article if it honestly actually addressed the major problems on his own side. For example, Russia dismembering Ukraine and setting up a puppet government. Following that quite possibly (since Putin has said he wants to restore the empire of Peter the Great), threatening other neighbours as well.

Also it behoves people who purport to be telling truth to power or unwelcome news to the public to be careful with the use of language. Western nations clearly ARE NOT at war with Russia because they haven’t engaged with their own military forces. On this definition of being a’t war’ United States was at war with Germany from 1939 and not 1941 and the fact even with Japan. In the 19th century Great Britain was quite sympathetic with the Confederacy but never at war with the Union, despite their being significant tensions.

Let us recall that Poland on our more hawkish countries in the coalition of suppliers against Putin have experienced being dismembered by Russia and Germany twice in its history; this is not some theoretical abstraction for her.

A few, but only a very few, commentators on Fazi’s side of the argument argue that Britain and America should not have fought Germany in the 1930s and 40s, though that is the logical conclusion of their position. Germany like Russia today successively invaded territories that it wanted and decided were part of its hegemonic area, for various dubious reasons. In any case, however valid those reasons were – for example with populations of German or Russian speakers – the issue was being settled by military invasion which was considered to be – quite reasonably I would have thought – a major threat to world peace.

Then there is the military and strategic point that no war has ever been won purely on the basis of defensive weaponry. Ukraine entirely be on the offensive and Russia with offensive capability all but guarantees an ultimate, in my view very undesirable, Russian victory.

Lastly the author implicitly assumes, but doesn’t make the case, that it is actually possible to reach a reasonable settlement with Russia it willing to abide by it rather than coming back a few years later in a stronger position. However history should lead us to rather doubt that: Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, then it invaded via proxies parts of Eastern Ukraine from 2016. It has broken every agreement it has ever signed with Ukraine including recognising the country in its current borders in 1991 and then again in 1994 when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

So far, the U.S. is providing $100 billion to Ukraine’s “defense”, which is equivalent to half of the annual GDP of the country. I’d venture to say that we are at war with Russia.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Actually, it’s arguable whether it was the Russians or the Ukrainians who failed to honour the Minsk Accords. Both sides went on fighting after the ceasefire was declared. The separatists blame the Kyiv faction, Kyiv blames the separatists. We believe who it suits us to believe, I think.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

So far, the U.S. is providing $100 billion to Ukraine’s “defense”, which is equivalent to half of the annual GDP of the country. I’d venture to say that we are at war with Russia.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Actually, it’s arguable whether it was the Russians or the Ukrainians who failed to honour the Minsk Accords. Both sides went on fighting after the ceasefire was declared. The separatists blame the Kyiv faction, Kyiv blames the separatists. We believe who it suits us to believe, I think.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

Clearly we are in a terrible situation with no easy way out. The West has certainly made many errors in its dealings with Russia, although these are often greatly exaggerated. For example it was Russian economists you wanted to rapidly reconstruct the Russian economy on capitalist lines – as was the received wisdom at the time.

However I’d have a lot more respect for Fazi’s article if it honestly actually addressed the major problems on his own side. For example, Russia dismembering Ukraine and setting up a puppet government. Following that quite possibly (since Putin has said he wants to restore the empire of Peter the Great), threatening other neighbours as well.

Also it behoves people who purport to be telling truth to power or unwelcome news to the public to be careful with the use of language. Western nations clearly ARE NOT at war with Russia because they haven’t engaged with their own military forces. On this definition of being a’t war’ United States was at war with Germany from 1939 and not 1941 and the fact even with Japan. In the 19th century Great Britain was quite sympathetic with the Confederacy but never at war with the Union, despite their being significant tensions.

Let us recall that Poland on our more hawkish countries in the coalition of suppliers against Putin have experienced being dismembered by Russia and Germany twice in its history; this is not some theoretical abstraction for her.

A few, but only a very few, commentators on Fazi’s side of the argument argue that Britain and America should not have fought Germany in the 1930s and 40s, though that is the logical conclusion of their position. Germany like Russia today successively invaded territories that it wanted and decided were part of its hegemonic area, for various dubious reasons. In any case, however valid those reasons were – for example with populations of German or Russian speakers – the issue was being settled by military invasion which was considered to be – quite reasonably I would have thought – a major threat to world peace.

Then there is the military and strategic point that no war has ever been won purely on the basis of defensive weaponry. Ukraine entirely be on the offensive and Russia with offensive capability all but guarantees an ultimate, in my view very undesirable, Russian victory.

Lastly the author implicitly assumes, but doesn’t make the case, that it is actually possible to reach a reasonable settlement with Russia it willing to abide by it rather than coming back a few years later in a stronger position. However history should lead us to rather doubt that: Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, then it invaded via proxies parts of Eastern Ukraine from 2016. It has broken every agreement it has ever signed with Ukraine including recognising the country in its current borders in 1991 and then again in 1994 when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

“We wants it…precious…”
The most important fact–of which Fazi is blissfully unaware–is that no nuclear nation has ever fought another–with nukes. Indeed, when any nuclear nation fears it might start a nuclear war, it makes great efforts to insure that doesn’t happen.
The Soviets did it twice with Cuba and Able Archer. Lower ranking officers also did it when substandard Soviet equpt malfunctioned–as Russian equpt inevitably does.
The US basically lost Vietnam because it was never willing to invade North Vietnam.
Any lessons there, guys?
No, I guess not…
Fazi–and every other Putin well-wisher–I’m sure just wish that Putin could somehow bluff his way to victory in Ukraine. Sure, he’s kidnapped a million Ukrainian citizens, tried to freeze 30 million+ in their own homes, and hopes to obliterate even the memory of a Ukrainian nation. But is he really such a bad guy–COMPARED TO NUCLER WAR!?
Sorry, just accept the hard reality that Putin has cleverly obliterated his own regular army, and neutered his air force. He has ingeniously insured that his nation is no longer a major world power. It’s currency is now tied to the Yuan, and much of its military equpt comes from Iran.
And no amount of hysteria, either here or anywhere else, can revive the corpse of the Russian Empire.

Kevin R
Kevin R
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You are in a very dangerous place if you believe that something never having happened in the past guarantees that it will not happen in the future. Given the respective protagonists’ blindness to catastrophes as diverse as the fall of Rome, the Holocaust or the financial crisis of 2007 I would tread very carefully around discounting the possibility of imminent nuclear war.

Will Will
Will Will
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin R

I remember decades ago when my employer decided it was going to be the first major player in the derivatives market. When I queried the methodology, in particular the way securities’ valuations and measures of volatility were a function of their historical records so what would happen if a left field event occurred outside the record, answer there was none.

Jim R
Jim R
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

This is a good analogy. The other thing that happened in the financial crisis is that the more bets were placed on the assumption that the black swan event would never happen, the more likely the black swan event became. No one should doubt that Russia is planning a nuclear escalation. Because that’s the one move that we’ve all bet against.

Jim R
Jim R
1 year ago
Reply to  Will Will

This is a good analogy. The other thing that happened in the financial crisis is that the more bets were placed on the assumption that the black swan event would never happen, the more likely the black swan event became. No one should doubt that Russia is planning a nuclear escalation. Because that’s the one move that we’ve all bet against.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin R

On much firmer ground, however, in calculating that nuclear war won’t be of any benefit to Russia in Ukraine, either strategic or tactical.
And “Black Swan” events occur infrequently. Read Taleb.
They aren’t miracles, as a nuclear war would be.

Kevin R
Kevin R
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thanks, in the event of a nuclear winter in the near future I’ll be able to console myself with the idea that at least it was highly unlikely to have happened.

Kevin R
Kevin R
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Thanks, in the event of a nuclear winter in the near future I’ll be able to console myself with the idea that at least it was highly unlikely to have happened.

Will Will
Will Will
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin R

I remember decades ago when my employer decided it was going to be the first major player in the derivatives market. When I queried the methodology, in particular the way securities’ valuations and measures of volatility were a function of their historical records so what would happen if a left field event occurred outside the record, answer there was none.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin R

On much firmer ground, however, in calculating that nuclear war won’t be of any benefit to Russia in Ukraine, either strategic or tactical.
And “Black Swan” events occur infrequently. Read Taleb.
They aren’t miracles, as a nuclear war would be.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

That is always a lame argument, to criticise somebody’s view of the war in Ukraine war as a “Putin Lover”. Same tactic as Putin uses calling everybody a Nazi. In his speech at the anniversary of Stalingrad he just compared Germany’s reluctant sending of tanks to the former Nazi Regime.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Yes Putin’s comparison to the 1943 Stalingrad battle (80 years on) was disrespectful and inaccurate. I refer you you to McFaul’s January article for Foreign Affairs, (quoted with link above). There are many opinions on this distasteful comparison. It’s simply not comparable to the Battle of Stalingrad and indeed, it disrespects the memory of all the Russian/Ukrainian soldiers who fought in it, defending Russian soil from a Nazi invasion. Putin started this war. He didn’t have to. It’s not a ‘defensive war’ in the slightest: no matter what his ‘political spin’ on it is.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Yes Putin’s comparison to the 1943 Stalingrad battle (80 years on) was disrespectful and inaccurate. I refer you you to McFaul’s January article for Foreign Affairs, (quoted with link above). There are many opinions on this distasteful comparison. It’s simply not comparable to the Battle of Stalingrad and indeed, it disrespects the memory of all the Russian/Ukrainian soldiers who fought in it, defending Russian soil from a Nazi invasion. Putin started this war. He didn’t have to. It’s not a ‘defensive war’ in the slightest: no matter what his ‘political spin’ on it is.

Kevin R
Kevin R
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You are in a very dangerous place if you believe that something never having happened in the past guarantees that it will not happen in the future. Given the respective protagonists’ blindness to catastrophes as diverse as the fall of Rome, the Holocaust or the financial crisis of 2007 I would tread very carefully around discounting the possibility of imminent nuclear war.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

That is always a lame argument, to criticise somebody’s view of the war in Ukraine war as a “Putin Lover”. Same tactic as Putin uses calling everybody a Nazi. In his speech at the anniversary of Stalingrad he just compared Germany’s reluctant sending of tanks to the former Nazi Regime.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

“We wants it…precious…”
The most important fact–of which Fazi is blissfully unaware–is that no nuclear nation has ever fought another–with nukes. Indeed, when any nuclear nation fears it might start a nuclear war, it makes great efforts to insure that doesn’t happen.
The Soviets did it twice with Cuba and Able Archer. Lower ranking officers also did it when substandard Soviet equpt malfunctioned–as Russian equpt inevitably does.
The US basically lost Vietnam because it was never willing to invade North Vietnam.
Any lessons there, guys?
No, I guess not…
Fazi–and every other Putin well-wisher–I’m sure just wish that Putin could somehow bluff his way to victory in Ukraine. Sure, he’s kidnapped a million Ukrainian citizens, tried to freeze 30 million+ in their own homes, and hopes to obliterate even the memory of a Ukrainian nation. But is he really such a bad guy–COMPARED TO NUCLER WAR!?
Sorry, just accept the hard reality that Putin has cleverly obliterated his own regular army, and neutered his air force. He has ingeniously insured that his nation is no longer a major world power. It’s currency is now tied to the Yuan, and much of its military equpt comes from Iran.
And no amount of hysteria, either here or anywhere else, can revive the corpse of the Russian Empire.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago

He refers to Ukraine as ❝one of the warring factions❞. I don’t see Ukraine as a faction but as an invaded European nation which we needed, and have chosen, to support. Like Belgium in 1914.

John Pade
John Pade
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

If this means American foreign policy is consciously willing to repeat 1914, it is both right and wrong but mostly wrong.
American policy might be at the early July, 1914 stage: we see that something significant has happened, aren’t sure just how important is it, but are confident its impact can be dealt with locally. We can increase our involvement and support of one of the other or the belligerents without limit because we are smart, we’ve gotten our arms around it, and whatever happens will be limited to a small theater.
This is the slim thread upon which your being right hangs.
Like 1914, we don’t fully appreciate that, for the actual and prospective belligerents, victory is the only possible outcome. Anything less will be total defeat, meaning the loss of power of those who currently hold it. And we only think we know the positions of the people who have the ears of the leaders. As recently as Iraq II we saw this scenario play out.
Thirty years after nuclear armageddon was banished, it’s back and back in a rush so fast we aren’t even aware of it.
As we start our second July week, our policies and expectations have to catch up fast to a situation that is moving even faster. By our fourth week it will be too late and we won’t even know it until it’s August 5th.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  John Pade

America and Britain were both signatories to the treaty of Russia respecting Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial borders. I think giving them weapons is probably the least they can do if they are to honour their side of the agreement, even if Russia has shown it can’t be trusted

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  John Pade

America and Britain were both signatories to the treaty of Russia respecting Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial borders. I think giving them weapons is probably the least they can do if they are to honour their side of the agreement, even if Russia has shown it can’t be trusted

John Pade
John Pade
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

If this means American foreign policy is consciously willing to repeat 1914, it is both right and wrong but mostly wrong.
American policy might be at the early July, 1914 stage: we see that something significant has happened, aren’t sure just how important is it, but are confident its impact can be dealt with locally. We can increase our involvement and support of one of the other or the belligerents without limit because we are smart, we’ve gotten our arms around it, and whatever happens will be limited to a small theater.
This is the slim thread upon which your being right hangs.
Like 1914, we don’t fully appreciate that, for the actual and prospective belligerents, victory is the only possible outcome. Anything less will be total defeat, meaning the loss of power of those who currently hold it. And we only think we know the positions of the people who have the ears of the leaders. As recently as Iraq II we saw this scenario play out.
Thirty years after nuclear armageddon was banished, it’s back and back in a rush so fast we aren’t even aware of it.
As we start our second July week, our policies and expectations have to catch up fast to a situation that is moving even faster. By our fourth week it will be too late and we won’t even know it until it’s August 5th.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago

He refers to Ukraine as ❝one of the warring factions❞. I don’t see Ukraine as a faction but as an invaded European nation which we needed, and have chosen, to support. Like Belgium in 1914.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

So what does this peace look like? Can Ukraine join NATO, and if not how can it guarantee the Russians won’t simply try and carve off another slice of their territory in the future?
It’s all well and good saying end the war, but what concessions will Russia give in order to do so?
Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict, yet too many seem to believe that it is Ukraine and the west that should give everything up in order for peace. If Ukraine are happy to fight in order to try and regain the their own country then why shouldn’t they? It’s also a relatively cheap way for the west to seriously diminish a major rival so why wouldn’t they take it.
Realpolitik I believe is the word that was bandied about at the start of the war, usually when implying that might has right in regards to international relations

Last edited 1 year ago by Billy Bob
Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Agreed. The Ukrainians are our Trojans at Thermopylae. It’s very unfortunate for them but hugely beneficial to the west, and as you say it’s their choice.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

They’re fighting for what Ukraine will be a 100 years from now.
Any sacrifices now will be worth it, if they beat off Russia.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

‘Beating off Russia’ won’t end the war.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Provided no nuclear Armageddon…

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Well if that happens then presumably they won’t have beaten Russia. …

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Well if that happens then presumably they won’t have beaten Russia. …

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

‘Beating off Russia’ won’t end the war.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Provided no nuclear Armageddon…

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Do you really mean Trojans?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Mr Stewart loves an inaccurate reference to classical antiquity. He also forgets thermopylae was a last stand. Not a victory really.

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Where is Charles Stanhope when you need him?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

I think he’s on his way down, I’ve just crossed paths above! Come on Mr Stanhope we need your ‘hermetic cudgel’.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

‘hermetic cudgel’? Good lord. You’re all ex public school in government, aren’t you? Ha ha! I totally don’t mind. I am your apprentice of history! Bring it on! I’m only good at modern history so anything of classical origin, bring it on. I’ll learn.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I stole that from an earlier poster, on a different thread, much cleverer than me. I homeschooled for a bit actually, I’m actually an electrician lady with boat dwelling parents. Might want to dial back the assumptions. I would recommend Tom Holland Persian fire on the subject of the Spartans and thermopylae myself. Mr Stanhope is probably much better qualified for giving book recommendations on the subject though I would say.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Thank you B Emery and I disagree. I have enjoyed your posts. You substantiate your arguments well. You deserve your place here as much as anyone else does so kudos to you 🙂

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Well thats very kind. Thank you, I have been quite obnoxious at times to be fair.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Well thats very kind. Thank you, I have been quite obnoxious at times to be fair.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Thank you B Emery and I disagree. I have enjoyed your posts. You substantiate your arguments well. You deserve your place here as much as anyone else does so kudos to you 🙂

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I stole that from an earlier poster, on a different thread, much cleverer than me. I homeschooled for a bit actually, I’m actually an electrician lady with boat dwelling parents. Might want to dial back the assumptions. I would recommend Tom Holland Persian fire on the subject of the Spartans and thermopylae myself. Mr Stanhope is probably much better qualified for giving book recommendations on the subject though I would say.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

‘hermetic cudgel’? Good lord. You’re all ex public school in government, aren’t you? Ha ha! I totally don’t mind. I am your apprentice of history! Bring it on! I’m only good at modern history so anything of classical origin, bring it on. I’ll learn.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

You are perfectly correct, SPARTANS not Trojans, and it was an heroic defeat!

However I seem to have a habit of annoying Mr Stewart so decided to ‘show mercy’ on this particular occasion!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, I thought I’d try him for a bit sport. Perhaps I’ll leave him alone if he’s a sensitive soul.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

He may have recovered so he’s all yours.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

I’m sure he’s so pleased. He may find you were a preferable annoyance.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

I’m sure he’s so pleased. He may find you were a preferable annoyance.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

He may have recovered so he’s all yours.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Ha!

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Conceded, I got the reference wrong, though I still believe the sentiment was correct as the war was ultimately lost.
But that’s two days in a row that you and B Emery have decided to have a go at me and my character.

What does that say about you Charles – you prefer that people agree with you all the time?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Actually you jumped me yesterday Mr Stewart, saying Mr Bjorn was making rubbish comments, you in fact said not very encouraging things yourself, I backed him up and you let your views be known. I welcome it, it’s what I’m here for 🙂 I would advise a thicker skin, you were simply being humorously corrected.
If you were paying attention you would have noticed we don’t always agree, I have in fact been very obnoxious to Mr Stanhope in the past.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Well said Ms Emery. We are obviously both true believers in that old adage “ sticks and stones may break my bones BUT words will never hurt me”.

Fortunately there are numerous unbelievers who offer simply excellent ‘sport’!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, we were made very resilient to all that too, my dad only deals in blunt. It is important to have some resilience to all that, the uncensored pro free speech American boards are savage, very funny to read. Mr Stewart is very upset with me now, I will leave him alone.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, we were made very resilient to all that too, my dad only deals in blunt. It is important to have some resilience to all that, the uncensored pro free speech American boards are savage, very funny to read. Mr Stewart is very upset with me now, I will leave him alone.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Well said Ms Emery. We are obviously both true believers in that old adage “ sticks and stones may break my bones BUT words will never hurt me”.

Fortunately there are numerous unbelievers who offer simply excellent ‘sport’!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Certainly not!
But as you well know, like the late Dr Samuel Johnson, I find ‘winding up’ the Scotch simply irresistible!

I might add that I only ‘acquired’ this affliction with the advent of the SNP and its idiotic acolytes.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Actually you jumped me yesterday Mr Stewart, saying Mr Bjorn was making rubbish comments, you in fact said not very encouraging things yourself, I backed him up and you let your views be known. I welcome it, it’s what I’m here for 🙂 I would advise a thicker skin, you were simply being humorously corrected.
If you were paying attention you would have noticed we don’t always agree, I have in fact been very obnoxious to Mr Stanhope in the past.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Certainly not!
But as you well know, like the late Dr Samuel Johnson, I find ‘winding up’ the Scotch simply irresistible!

I might add that I only ‘acquired’ this affliction with the advent of the SNP and its idiotic acolytes.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, I thought I’d try him for a bit sport. Perhaps I’ll leave him alone if he’s a sensitive soul.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Ha!

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Conceded, I got the reference wrong, though I still believe the sentiment was correct as the war was ultimately lost.
But that’s two days in a row that you and B Emery have decided to have a go at me and my character.

What does that say about you Charles – you prefer that people agree with you all the time?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

I want to meet this ‘Charles Stanhope’!!!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

No relation to the late Captain Richard Sharp(e) of the 95th Rifles I suppose?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

No I’m afraid, nor the Jamaican revolutionary (Sam Sharpe with an e). It’s my married name. I am Scottish (not SNP)

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

No I’m afraid, nor the Jamaican revolutionary (Sam Sharpe with an e). It’s my married name. I am Scottish (not SNP)

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

No relation to the late Captain Richard Sharp(e) of the 95th Rifles I suppose?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Here here!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

I think he’s on his way down, I’ve just crossed paths above! Come on Mr Stanhope we need your ‘hermetic cudgel’.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

You are perfectly correct, SPARTANS not Trojans, and it was an heroic defeat!

However I seem to have a habit of annoying Mr Stewart so decided to ‘show mercy’ on this particular occasion!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

I want to meet this ‘Charles Stanhope’!!!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Here here!

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Ah you’re right about Spartans B. But that’s two days in a row that you and Charles have made negative comments about my character, and you’re starting to look like the school bullies from Tom Brown. I appear to have provoked you into bullying me after merely getting a classical reference wrong, and then you generalise about it.

Are you proud to be a bully?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Oh you do get upset don’t you, bless you, I’m very sorry if you feel bullied. As I said above, you were happy to make some not very constructive comments yourself yesterday, you and three others were happy to pick on Mr Bjorn who was already heavily down voted and repeatedly flagged off for no reason. I will be sure to leave you in peace I don’t want accusing of bullying.
Also I like to get facts right, I’ve seen you throw the thermopylae reference around more than once. It’s not a good analogy. Trust me, there was nothing left of them in the pass.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Oh you do get upset don’t you, bless you, I’m very sorry if you feel bullied. As I said above, you were happy to make some not very constructive comments yourself yesterday, you and three others were happy to pick on Mr Bjorn who was already heavily down voted and repeatedly flagged off for no reason. I will be sure to leave you in peace I don’t want accusing of bullying.
Also I like to get facts right, I’ve seen you throw the thermopylae reference around more than once. It’s not a good analogy. Trust me, there was nothing left of them in the pass.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Where is Charles Stanhope when you need him?

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Ah you’re right about Spartans B. But that’s two days in a row that you and Charles have made negative comments about my character, and you’re starting to look like the school bullies from Tom Brown. I appear to have provoked you into bullying me after merely getting a classical reference wrong, and then you generalise about it.

Are you proud to be a bully?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Do we need the infamous ‘Charles Stanhope’ back here?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

No.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

No.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Mr Stewart loves an inaccurate reference to classical antiquity. He also forgets thermopylae was a last stand. Not a victory really.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Solomon

Do we need the infamous ‘Charles Stanhope’ back here?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Ahem … Spartans, surely?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I do believe that this has been corrected in the text above.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

I do believe that this has been corrected in the text above.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

And I say one shouldn’t be taken in by the Russian Spartan Horse, either!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

They’re fighting for what Ukraine will be a 100 years from now.
Any sacrifices now will be worth it, if they beat off Russia.

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Do you really mean Trojans?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Ahem … Spartans, surely?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

And I say one shouldn’t be taken in by the Russian Spartan Horse, either!

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

“Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict”
The biggest problem with getting people to see sense about Ukraine is the widespread perception that what’s going on is a war between Russia and Ukraine which will end if the Russians are driven out. Not so. In reality, it’s a long-standing civil war in which the Russians have intervened. It will only end when a constitutional settlement is reached that induces the separatists to stop fighting.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Glad to see we are moving on from the Spartans, however much I enjoyed the historical lessons.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Glad to see we are moving on from the Spartans, however much I enjoyed the historical lessons.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Agreed. The Ukrainians are our Trojans at Thermopylae. It’s very unfortunate for them but hugely beneficial to the west, and as you say it’s their choice.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

“Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict”
The biggest problem with getting people to see sense about Ukraine is the widespread perception that what’s going on is a war between Russia and Ukraine which will end if the Russians are driven out. Not so. In reality, it’s a long-standing civil war in which the Russians have intervened. It will only end when a constitutional settlement is reached that induces the separatists to stop fighting.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

So what does this peace look like? Can Ukraine join NATO, and if not how can it guarantee the Russians won’t simply try and carve off another slice of their territory in the future?
It’s all well and good saying end the war, but what concessions will Russia give in order to do so?
Remember that it was Putin that started this conflict, yet too many seem to believe that it is Ukraine and the west that should give everything up in order for peace. If Ukraine are happy to fight in order to try and regain the their own country then why shouldn’t they? It’s also a relatively cheap way for the west to seriously diminish a major rival so why wouldn’t they take it.
Realpolitik I believe is the word that was bandied about at the start of the war, usually when implying that might has right in regards to international relations

Last edited 1 year ago by Billy Bob
Kieran Saxon
Kieran Saxon
1 year ago

I agree that reaching a peaceful settlement is in everyone’s interest, but the opinion piece is grounded in naivety. Russia’s stance towards the West (and the CCP’s) is based on a concept of Hybrid War – an extension of von Clausewitz’s Total War concept to include elements like information and cyber warfare. An explicit part of the Hybrid War strategy is minor conflicts like Syria, Crimea and now the wider Ukraine conflict. So, we were already at war, but we just didn’t know it.
The West’s response up until Ukraine has been weak and uncoordinated, but the almost uniform approach from the West has given Russia pause for thought. However, there is room for improvement from the West in moving beyond trade measures – sanctions – and utilising the full spectrum of Hybrid Warfare in response, namely cyber- and information-warfare.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Kieran Saxon

The Russians, however, don’t see it that way.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

That statement al assumes ALL Russians are well informed and think the same way.

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

With respect, your statement assumes that what ALL Russians think actually matters, even (especially) in Russia.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Most of them think the same way and are no less well-informed than you or I.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Are you actually following any of this – its estimated at least 500,000 Russians have left because they don’t agree with the war. There are laws in Russia not allowing Russians to actually call it a ‘war’. They can’t access any media outside of Russia. Its illegal (such that many have gone to prison for 10 years for just criticising in any way the war. They are fed a constant stream of propaganda by their media. You think that means they are as well informed as us ??

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Are you actually following any of this – its estimated at least 500,000 Russians have left because they don’t agree with the war. There are laws in Russia not allowing Russians to actually call it a ‘war’. They can’t access any media outside of Russia. Its illegal (such that many have gone to prison for 10 years for just criticising in any way the war. They are fed a constant stream of propaganda by their media. You think that means they are as well informed as us ??

John Solomon
John Solomon
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

With respect, your statement assumes that what ALL Russians think actually matters, even (especially) in Russia.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Most of them think the same way and are no less well-informed than you or I.

Kieran Saxon
Kieran Saxon
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

The Russian establishment/military see it that way, and is part of their doctrine. Of course the Russian people may not see it that way and my sympathies to any who suffer because of the actions of the regime they live under.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

That statement al assumes ALL Russians are well informed and think the same way.

Kieran Saxon
Kieran Saxon
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

The Russian establishment/military see it that way, and is part of their doctrine. Of course the Russian people may not see it that way and my sympathies to any who suffer because of the actions of the regime they live under.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Kieran Saxon

$100 billion from the U.S. alone is weak? It’s equivalent to half of the annual GDP of Ukraine.

Alan B
Alan B
1 year ago
Reply to  Kieran Saxon

Hmmm… this brings to mind something dimly remembered about Oceania and Eurasia…

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Kieran Saxon

The Russians, however, don’t see it that way.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Kieran Saxon

$100 billion from the U.S. alone is weak? It’s equivalent to half of the annual GDP of Ukraine.

Alan B
Alan B
1 year ago
Reply to  Kieran Saxon

Hmmm… this brings to mind something dimly remembered about Oceania and Eurasia…

Kieran Saxon
Kieran Saxon
1 year ago

I agree that reaching a peaceful settlement is in everyone’s interest, but the opinion piece is grounded in naivety. Russia’s stance towards the West (and the CCP’s) is based on a concept of Hybrid War – an extension of von Clausewitz’s Total War concept to include elements like information and cyber warfare. An explicit part of the Hybrid War strategy is minor conflicts like Syria, Crimea and now the wider Ukraine conflict. So, we were already at war, but we just didn’t know it.
The West’s response up until Ukraine has been weak and uncoordinated, but the almost uniform approach from the West has given Russia pause for thought. However, there is room for improvement from the West in moving beyond trade measures – sanctions – and utilising the full spectrum of Hybrid Warfare in response, namely cyber- and information-warfare.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago

“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable. The West does not covet so much as a square inch of Russian territory, certainly pre-2014. The existential threat is the one posed by Russia to Ukraine. Moreover, Putin has made it clear that he regards countries that are now independent, sovereign UN member states to be in his “near abroad” and “sphere of influence”. If the West accepts Russian aggression against Ukraine and other neighbouring countries because it is afraid of the possible use of nuclear weapons by Russia on the grounds of a bogus “existential threat” to Russia, which does not exist, then this provides a template for Russia to repeat its aggression at will.
Russia has no monopoly on nuclear weapons and no country can win a nuclear exchange. This is the philosophical basis of Mutually Assured Destruction. Our nuclear deterrents will either deter, or they will not. We need the moral clarity as set out by President John Kennedy in his inaugural address. If the West really were at war with Russia, then we are committing a homeopathic level of military support in relation to our collective inventories. It is Russia that is escalating the war, as is clearly evident in Donbas. They must understand that this is futile and that the wanton and indiscriminate destruction of entire towns and cities is totally unacceptable.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable.
Wall Street’s biggest profits come from encouraging US taxpayers to spend almost a trillion dollars every year on the military. That requires enemies to frighten them with – the more heinous the better. Putin is perfect.

Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

The defense industry (per PwC) made $62 billion in operating profits in 2021. Apple made $101 billion alone. Try again. You might want to say “political and military leaders biggest profits” instead.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Struve
Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

The defense industry (per PwC) made $62 billion in operating profits in 2021. Apple made $101 billion alone. Try again. You might want to say “political and military leaders biggest profits” instead.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Struve
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Howard Gleave

“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable.
Wall Street’s biggest profits come from encouraging US taxpayers to spend almost a trillion dollars every year on the military. That requires enemies to frighten them with – the more heinous the better. Putin is perfect.

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago

“from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine.” This is highly debatable. The West does not covet so much as a square inch of Russian territory, certainly pre-2014. The existential threat is the one posed by Russia to Ukraine. Moreover, Putin has made it clear that he regards countries that are now independent, sovereign UN member states to be in his “near abroad” and “sphere of influence”. If the West accepts Russian aggression against Ukraine and other neighbouring countries because it is afraid of the possible use of nuclear weapons by Russia on the grounds of a bogus “existential threat” to Russia, which does not exist, then this provides a template for Russia to repeat its aggression at will.
Russia has no monopoly on nuclear weapons and no country can win a nuclear exchange. This is the philosophical basis of Mutually Assured Destruction. Our nuclear deterrents will either deter, or they will not. We need the moral clarity as set out by President John Kennedy in his inaugural address. If the West really were at war with Russia, then we are committing a homeopathic level of military support in relation to our collective inventories. It is Russia that is escalating the war, as is clearly evident in Donbas. They must understand that this is futile and that the wanton and indiscriminate destruction of entire towns and cities is totally unacceptable.

Andrew Wright
Andrew Wright
1 year ago

Rather more nuanced than most pro-Russian articles, but nontheless this author appears to have swallowed the Putin propaganda whole ..

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wright

The author has been brave enough to write an article that is not popular right now. Peace talks were recently discussed at Davos, although no one wants to admit it after Musk. (Last Davos session, George Kennan said something similar and later retracted it). You don’t have to agree with the author’s perspective but one good thing is that it has ignited an excellent debate within the comments underneath.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Umm Davos less said the better really. Don’t remember Putin turning up at Davos to put his side of things.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Don’t think he was invited Isabel…

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

Don’t think he was invited Isabel…

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Umm Davos less said the better really. Don’t remember Putin turning up at Davos to put his side of things.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wright

The author has been brave enough to write an article that is not popular right now. Peace talks were recently discussed at Davos, although no one wants to admit it after Musk. (Last Davos session, George Kennan said something similar and later retracted it). You don’t have to agree with the author’s perspective but one good thing is that it has ignited an excellent debate within the comments underneath.

Andrew Wright
Andrew Wright
1 year ago

Rather more nuanced than most pro-Russian articles, but nontheless this author appears to have swallowed the Putin propaganda whole ..

Antony Hirst
Antony Hirst
1 year ago

Ignorance is knowledge. Oppression is freedom. Men are women. Left is right. Racism is equality. We have kind of gotten used to these utter absurdities over the last two decades. But the new one on me is that imperialism is liberty and aggression is defence. Now I see that Russia are actually the good guys. I’m sure even Franz Kafka would have thought this all to be too fantastic for his novels.

Last edited 1 year ago by Antony Hirst
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Antony Hirst

deleted. (slow, but I caught on).

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Explain to me? Am I missing something?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I was asking for clarification that just required me to read Mr. Hirst’s comment more carefully and confirm there was no break in the Orwellian irony. I thought maybe there was a pivot into the commenter’s own views beginning with “Now I see…”.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I’m still in the dark. Forgive my ignorance

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

You haven’t missed anything worthwhile. I deleted a post which asked a question that became pointless when I read the comment more carefully.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

You haven’t missed anything worthwhile. I deleted a post which asked a question that became pointless when I read the comment more carefully.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I’m still in the dark. Forgive my ignorance

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I was asking for clarification that just required me to read Mr. Hirst’s comment more carefully and confirm there was no break in the Orwellian irony. I thought maybe there was a pivot into the commenter’s own views beginning with “Now I see…”.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Explain to me? Am I missing something?

Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
1 year ago
Reply to  Antony Hirst

Best comment here! What (what’s left of the West) needs is this kind of extension of Orwell to the details of the left’s attempt to supplant Western Culture with gnostic mumbo jumbo.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Antony Hirst

deleted. (slow, but I caught on).

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
1 year ago
Reply to  Antony Hirst

Best comment here! What (what’s left of the West) needs is this kind of extension of Orwell to the details of the left’s attempt to supplant Western Culture with gnostic mumbo jumbo.

Antony Hirst
Antony Hirst
1 year ago

Ignorance is knowledge. Oppression is freedom. Men are women. Left is right. Racism is equality. We have kind of gotten used to these utter absurdities over the last two decades. But the new one on me is that imperialism is liberty and aggression is defence. Now I see that Russia are actually the good guys. I’m sure even Franz Kafka would have thought this all to be too fantastic for his novels.

Last edited 1 year ago by Antony Hirst
Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
1 year ago

I hold no brief for President Putin, but I recently read Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall. He makes the point that from Napoleon’s invasion in 1812, up to 1945, Russia has had to fight, on average, every 33 years on and around the North European Plain. That record and the losses entailed, must colour Russian thinking. We know that we, the West, are not going to advance on Moscow. But in Moscow they cling to the lessons of history and to the traditional response of seeking safety behind either difficult to cross territory, or behind buffer-states, of which Poland and Ukraine, with their flatter, easier to cross territories, have always been on Russia’s wish-list.
Russia will also be aware that the more they are weakened, or seen as weakened, may feed into concerns that one day China may not be so friendly and that vast areas of eastern Russia would be hard to defend from a Chinese invasion. NATO is not threatening Russia’s actual security, but Russia’s sense of security is another matter. Politically we are in a minefield.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Hawkes

Let me send this to Tim on twitter…

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

You should do that.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

I agree with you by the way 🙂

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

I agree with you by the way 🙂

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

You should do that.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Hawkes

Absolutely. Really fine point you make about China too.
The other fiction reverberating around the West is that with Mr. Putin gone, someone compliable will take his place. Someone like Navalny, though no one seems to have noticed his lineage at all. Not someone who liked foreigners in Russia, just a short while ago. But now a paragon of democratic values.
Speaking of which, I mean, whatever happened to that nice man, Mr. Yeltsin? Not so good for the Russians, yet so good for us. For some inexplicable reason, never explored by our journalists, he deferred at the end of his life to Mr. Putin to “save Russia.” Save Russia from what? Drunk, yes, but always so nice to us was Mr. Yeltsin. Just like Mr. Gorbachev and his charming wife. So trusting.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Hawkes

Let me send this to Tim on twitter…

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Hawkes

Absolutely. Really fine point you make about China too.
The other fiction reverberating around the West is that with Mr. Putin gone, someone compliable will take his place. Someone like Navalny, though no one seems to have noticed his lineage at all. Not someone who liked foreigners in Russia, just a short while ago. But now a paragon of democratic values.
Speaking of which, I mean, whatever happened to that nice man, Mr. Yeltsin? Not so good for the Russians, yet so good for us. For some inexplicable reason, never explored by our journalists, he deferred at the end of his life to Mr. Putin to “save Russia.” Save Russia from what? Drunk, yes, but always so nice to us was Mr. Yeltsin. Just like Mr. Gorbachev and his charming wife. So trusting.

Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
1 year ago

I hold no brief for President Putin, but I recently read Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall. He makes the point that from Napoleon’s invasion in 1812, up to 1945, Russia has had to fight, on average, every 33 years on and around the North European Plain. That record and the losses entailed, must colour Russian thinking. We know that we, the West, are not going to advance on Moscow. But in Moscow they cling to the lessons of history and to the traditional response of seeking safety behind either difficult to cross territory, or behind buffer-states, of which Poland and Ukraine, with their flatter, easier to cross territories, have always been on Russia’s wish-list.
Russia will also be aware that the more they are weakened, or seen as weakened, may feed into concerns that one day China may not be so friendly and that vast areas of eastern Russia would be hard to defend from a Chinese invasion. NATO is not threatening Russia’s actual security, but Russia’s sense of security is another matter. Politically we are in a minefield.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

‘We’re gonna drive the Russians out’, say the hawks. Then what? A generation of sectarian fighting in the east of the country and Crimea – all fed by money and guns coming in from Russia? The Irish Troubles on steroids for decades?

As ever, American policy is stupid and short-sighted and driven entirely by the needs of Wall Street and the arms manufacturers. Why has no-one even suggested the solution might be constitutional – as it was in Ireland?

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

If Russia “wins” the same could be said. I’m sure plenty of Ukrainians would continue the struggle in the same way.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

… which is why there has to be a constitutional solution.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Which is? – and everybody will agree to right. What wars in history have had a constitutional solution ??

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Which is? – and everybody will agree to right. What wars in history have had a constitutional solution ??

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

… which is why there has to be a constitutional solution.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Why? In my opinion because Russia has no intention of accepting an independent Ukraine not under Russian control. Russia could have kept the Donbas and Crimea indefinitely if they had not started this war. They might get them yet, if there was a way of guaraiteeing Ukrainian independence and freedom from Russian aggression afterwards. Unfortunately there does not seem to be.

Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Continued fixation on Wall Street. Wall Street doesnt care about the defense industry. I know I worked their for a decade. You need to redirect you military industrial complex argument to the people who actually care. Namely the politicians and the military leaders who are vested in it. They get the kickbacks, jobs, retirements from that complex. Wall Street could care less. Case in point as I mentioned earlier the whole complex made $62 billion in OP in 2021, Apple made almost $110 billion.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

If Russia “wins” the same could be said. I’m sure plenty of Ukrainians would continue the struggle in the same way.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Why? In my opinion because Russia has no intention of accepting an independent Ukraine not under Russian control. Russia could have kept the Donbas and Crimea indefinitely if they had not started this war. They might get them yet, if there was a way of guaraiteeing Ukrainian independence and freedom from Russian aggression afterwards. Unfortunately there does not seem to be.

Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Continued fixation on Wall Street. Wall Street doesnt care about the defense industry. I know I worked their for a decade. You need to redirect you military industrial complex argument to the people who actually care. Namely the politicians and the military leaders who are vested in it. They get the kickbacks, jobs, retirements from that complex. Wall Street could care less. Case in point as I mentioned earlier the whole complex made $62 billion in OP in 2021, Apple made almost $110 billion.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

‘We’re gonna drive the Russians out’, say the hawks. Then what? A generation of sectarian fighting in the east of the country and Crimea – all fed by money and guns coming in from Russia? The Irish Troubles on steroids for decades?

As ever, American policy is stupid and short-sighted and driven entirely by the needs of Wall Street and the arms manufacturers. Why has no-one even suggested the solution might be constitutional – as it was in Ireland?

Edit Szegedi
Edit Szegedi
1 year ago

East European citizens deserve better than a menacing Russia.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Edit Szegedi

I used to disagree with Nato expansion, particularly in 2008 when Georgia and Ukraine were declined by Merkel and Sarkozy, but promised they could join ‘one day’. Personally, having seen what has happened, I don’t blame them. And yes, earlier on in the thread, someone mentioned Sweden’s historical stance of neutrality. Things have changed. It may well be that whilst Finland has said they wish to join with Sweden, given Turkey’s objections to the latter joining, Finland may have to join without. It’s all very well to say that Nato expansion was sticking two thumbs up to Russia. Then you’re invaded by Russia and you realise why the Eastern European countries formerly affiliated with the USSR were clamouring, neigh begging, to join the Nato Umbrella for protection. In the same way, Scholz was criticised for not giving up the Leopard 2s before US agreed to donate Abrams tanks. What people fail to mention is that it was the same in January with the IFV’s – Germany waited for America to go first. They rely on America for its security umbrella (given they don’t have nuclear weapons).

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I think US was right – Abrams tanks are pretty unsutable for Ukraine. The fact that Germany leans on US is part of the problem though isn’t it?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

If I were Germany Isabel, I’d lean on the US too. They’re not a nuclear power and Russia are within tank distance.

Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

But much like Saddam’s Iraq in the mid 90s the Russian tank threat is massively overstated. I am not one to believe that Russia is not a threat, but the real risk has more to do with our limited political will (demonstrated over and over again for the last 30 years) then with what we/they are actually capable of.
Sorry, sore spot as I once had to try and convince the Commander of the Fifth Fleet (to which I was attached) that Saddam could push through Kuwait into Saudi in THREE DAYS after GW1. I argued all day with my Army brethren that he was a paper tiger especially with regards to his armor (note Russian equipment and training) but was still forced to present as “the Army guy”. But my counter-argument didnt drive the manpower/equipment/$ agenda forward. I left the Army shortly thereafter.

Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

But much like Saddam’s Iraq in the mid 90s the Russian tank threat is massively overstated. I am not one to believe that Russia is not a threat, but the real risk has more to do with our limited political will (demonstrated over and over again for the last 30 years) then with what we/they are actually capable of.
Sorry, sore spot as I once had to try and convince the Commander of the Fifth Fleet (to which I was attached) that Saddam could push through Kuwait into Saudi in THREE DAYS after GW1. I argued all day with my Army brethren that he was a paper tiger especially with regards to his armor (note Russian equipment and training) but was still forced to present as “the Army guy”. But my counter-argument didnt drive the manpower/equipment/$ agenda forward. I left the Army shortly thereafter.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

If I were Germany Isabel, I’d lean on the US too. They’re not a nuclear power and Russia are within tank distance.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I think US was right – Abrams tanks are pretty unsutable for Ukraine. The fact that Germany leans on US is part of the problem though isn’t it?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Edit Szegedi

I used to disagree with Nato expansion, particularly in 2008 when Georgia and Ukraine were declined by Merkel and Sarkozy, but promised they could join ‘one day’. Personally, having seen what has happened, I don’t blame them. And yes, earlier on in the thread, someone mentioned Sweden’s historical stance of neutrality. Things have changed. It may well be that whilst Finland has said they wish to join with Sweden, given Turkey’s objections to the latter joining, Finland may have to join without. It’s all very well to say that Nato expansion was sticking two thumbs up to Russia. Then you’re invaded by Russia and you realise why the Eastern European countries formerly affiliated with the USSR were clamouring, neigh begging, to join the Nato Umbrella for protection. In the same way, Scholz was criticised for not giving up the Leopard 2s before US agreed to donate Abrams tanks. What people fail to mention is that it was the same in January with the IFV’s – Germany waited for America to go first. They rely on America for its security umbrella (given they don’t have nuclear weapons).

Edit Szegedi
Edit Szegedi
1 year ago

East European citizens deserve better than a menacing Russia.

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago

Yes, there is a need for Westerners to get clear and precise information about Ukraine / Russia. Much of the sources used in Western media are in English, French, German or Ukrainian, which narrows the scope of discussion. There’s little emphasis on other key players, such as Israel and Central Asian powers, although Turkey gets some attention. It’s not helped by fluent Russian speakers in the West, who clip snippets from Russian propaganda and say ‘I watch this so you don’t have to.’ But now I’m curious about things being taken out of context, or only seeing a small part of the story.
The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz cautioned that war involved the mobalisation of the military, the people and the government / parliament. It certainly feels as if I, an Australian trying to get into a Masters program in history, is mobalised. There is a significant investment in media communications to convey a certain narrative about eventual Ukraine success in Russia, and I’m questioning its authenticity. I don’t want to call anyone a liar here as I don’t know. Yet all sides in war engage in propaganda and misleading communication. It’s actually kind of crucial to eventual victory. That doesn’t, however, diminish the moral problems stemming from it. A Thomist might excuse this if the war itself was a righteous cause, but that’s a debate few leaders are willing to have.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

In what way is Ukraine defending itself from an unprovoked Russian invasion not a “righteous cause” ? And if it isn’t, where exactly is your threshold for such a cause ?

Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

In other words, this is a just war

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Pearse

No its a “special operation”.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Pearse

No its a “special operation”.

Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

In other words, this is a just war

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Since I try to get both Russian and western sides on this, that is an important point.
However, the pro-Russianm channels are seething at Russia’s poor performance.
Might want to check out Strelkov’s telegram channel:
https://t.me/s/strelkovii
Google translate can turnn it to English.

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

All good points, I appreciate the link to Strelkov. To clarify, I have no issue in Ukraine fighting back Russian invasion, that is expected of any beseiged country. It’s also righteous to defend your soverignty. However, I’m sceptical of the grand claims made by (typically non-Ukrainians and non-Russians) of the war being this huge battle about democracy and liberal values. I’m less sympathetic to this, because it doesn’t match the cost it evokes, i.e tens of thousands dead Ukrainians and the country withered to dust. There’s an annoying trend to simplify harsh warfare into ideas, and whilst these sound lovely, I certainly belong to the realist school in International Relations. An American researcher at a Washington, DC think tank has different security objectives than a Ukrainian student. Because of this, their ‘war experience’ will vastly differ.
My original comment wasn’t to say what Ukraine should or shouldn’t do. Not my decision. Rather, this post was my viewpoint as an Australian, who engages with media frequently.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago

OK but you don’t really explain your scepticism. Yes some claims may be overblown but I think is reasonable to say that Russia is not democratic and Ukraine at least is trying and has traveled a long way in that direction. For that reason it should be strongly supported who does not believe “might is right”.

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

My scepticism is more of an instinct festering due to several reasons: 1) A massive mobalisation from Russia is coming, to launch another attack in early Spring 2) Europe is growing skeptical of giving weapons to Ukraine due to their own limiting supplies 3) I have no clue who to believe on death numbers, I’m resigned to ‘you’ll find out after the war.’
Of course, I could be wrong and it’s difficult to predict the outcome of this particular mass mobalisation, when we don’t know the quality of the recruits and military tactics. I’m more of a history person than a future one, tbh.
Sure, Russia more dictatorial and less free than Ukraine. The latter is willing to integrate into Europe. However, none of that changes the realities on the battlefield. Ideas don’t win wars. You can be on the right side, a completely moral angel…. and still lose.
Do I think Ukraine is losing? Don’t know. Do I think Russia is losing? Don’t know. With so much uncertainity, I find it hard to trust the intense declarations from English-language media, so sure of Ukrainian victory. Again, these are loose thoughts and not really a concrete, precise argument to submit to a peer-reviewed journal.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

But Europe is giving more weapons to Ukraine and and not less ! Surely you’ve heard about the tanks by now ? Or is that “fake news” ?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Madeline, first of all. Well done for engaging this tough crowd. You are simply trying to understand and look at all arguments and they are coherent, eloquent and well written out. I congratulate you for that and it will put you in good stead for your Masters. Never be too afraid to posit your arguments and ask questions. In matters such as these, you will learn to stand your ground. Politeness is key, (even if others are not), and in this you are doing well. In response: (1) A massive offensive is coming from both sides and has long been expected. Previously, the weapons provided by the western collective were defensive. This is like the middle game of chess. They have moved on to offensive weapons to take back territory – Ukraine is trying to take back and Russia are trying to retain what they have amassed since the war began. As you know, when talks take place, they usually settle on the front lines at that time. Neither side is happy with what they have presently – Ukraine wants back what it lost in 2014 and Russia is trying to hang on to that, and the 4 oblasts in which they held the ‘referendums’. (2) Yes this is a concern. We are losing supplies. I saw an interesting argument recently where, instead of giving Ukraine 3 different types of tanks they had to learn how to operate (UK Challengers, German Leopards and US Abrams – for which (the Abrams) bigger bridges need to be built for transit because they are so heavy), countries with Leopards release more of them (Abrams are made to order and will take longer to arrive) and those countries Leopards’ are replaced at a later date. Some countries, such as Poland, have contracts for Abrams to be delivered anyway, further down the line, agreed well before the war started). In the UK per se we don’t need the tanks, as we are protected by the Channel (that is not to say that we are immune to other types of aerial and hybrid warfare). Some Nato countries have asked South Korea to step up artillery production for Ukraine but that’s an issue. They have North Korea to contend with (who side with Russia). It’s one thing for South Korea to have a contract to deliver military hardware to countries, (long standing pre 24/2/22 contracts), but another thing for them actually to provide artillery direct to Ukraine. (3) On death numbers, no side tells the truth: neither Russia or Ukraine. And remember in Russia you have different factions fighting the war: mobilised Russian soldiers and Private Military Contractors such as Wagner. You’re not getting the truth from anyone. Initially the Russian mobilised soldiers were poorly trained, but many of them have been training in Belarus – a Russian training ground. From there, they return to Russia before being sent to Ukraine – in that way, the assaults aren’t coming directly from Belarus per se; unless it’s an Iranian kamikaze drone that’s been launched from Belarusian soil. (4) Moldova and Ukraine were both granted EU candidate status in June 2022. (5) On who is succeeding on what side and by how much, again, you can’t fare better than by analysing the maps of the front lines. You can do this on Rochan Consulting’s Daily Ukraine Conflict Monitor, or on the Institute for the Study of War’s maps.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

But Europe is giving more weapons to Ukraine and and not less ! Surely you’ve heard about the tanks by now ? Or is that “fake news” ?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Madeline, first of all. Well done for engaging this tough crowd. You are simply trying to understand and look at all arguments and they are coherent, eloquent and well written out. I congratulate you for that and it will put you in good stead for your Masters. Never be too afraid to posit your arguments and ask questions. In matters such as these, you will learn to stand your ground. Politeness is key, (even if others are not), and in this you are doing well. In response: (1) A massive offensive is coming from both sides and has long been expected. Previously, the weapons provided by the western collective were defensive. This is like the middle game of chess. They have moved on to offensive weapons to take back territory – Ukraine is trying to take back and Russia are trying to retain what they have amassed since the war began. As you know, when talks take place, they usually settle on the front lines at that time. Neither side is happy with what they have presently – Ukraine wants back what it lost in 2014 and Russia is trying to hang on to that, and the 4 oblasts in which they held the ‘referendums’. (2) Yes this is a concern. We are losing supplies. I saw an interesting argument recently where, instead of giving Ukraine 3 different types of tanks they had to learn how to operate (UK Challengers, German Leopards and US Abrams – for which (the Abrams) bigger bridges need to be built for transit because they are so heavy), countries with Leopards release more of them (Abrams are made to order and will take longer to arrive) and those countries Leopards’ are replaced at a later date. Some countries, such as Poland, have contracts for Abrams to be delivered anyway, further down the line, agreed well before the war started). In the UK per se we don’t need the tanks, as we are protected by the Channel (that is not to say that we are immune to other types of aerial and hybrid warfare). Some Nato countries have asked South Korea to step up artillery production for Ukraine but that’s an issue. They have North Korea to contend with (who side with Russia). It’s one thing for South Korea to have a contract to deliver military hardware to countries, (long standing pre 24/2/22 contracts), but another thing for them actually to provide artillery direct to Ukraine. (3) On death numbers, no side tells the truth: neither Russia or Ukraine. And remember in Russia you have different factions fighting the war: mobilised Russian soldiers and Private Military Contractors such as Wagner. You’re not getting the truth from anyone. Initially the Russian mobilised soldiers were poorly trained, but many of them have been training in Belarus – a Russian training ground. From there, they return to Russia before being sent to Ukraine – in that way, the assaults aren’t coming directly from Belarus per se; unless it’s an Iranian kamikaze drone that’s been launched from Belarusian soil. (4) Moldova and Ukraine were both granted EU candidate status in June 2022. (5) On who is succeeding on what side and by how much, again, you can’t fare better than by analysing the maps of the front lines. You can do this on Rochan Consulting’s Daily Ukraine Conflict Monitor, or on the Institute for the Study of War’s maps.

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

My scepticism is more of an instinct festering due to several reasons: 1) A massive mobalisation from Russia is coming, to launch another attack in early Spring 2) Europe is growing skeptical of giving weapons to Ukraine due to their own limiting supplies 3) I have no clue who to believe on death numbers, I’m resigned to ‘you’ll find out after the war.’
Of course, I could be wrong and it’s difficult to predict the outcome of this particular mass mobalisation, when we don’t know the quality of the recruits and military tactics. I’m more of a history person than a future one, tbh.
Sure, Russia more dictatorial and less free than Ukraine. The latter is willing to integrate into Europe. However, none of that changes the realities on the battlefield. Ideas don’t win wars. You can be on the right side, a completely moral angel…. and still lose.
Do I think Ukraine is losing? Don’t know. Do I think Russia is losing? Don’t know. With so much uncertainity, I find it hard to trust the intense declarations from English-language media, so sure of Ukrainian victory. Again, these are loose thoughts and not really a concrete, precise argument to submit to a peer-reviewed journal.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

It’s about sovereignty and respecting borders. Not about ‘diplomacy’ and ‘ideas’. Russia has blatantly disregarded Ukraine’s widely accepted post Soviet dissolution sovereign borders of 1991. They have ignored the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, where Ukraine agreed to hand their nuclear weapons back to Russia, which guaranteed Ukrainian sovereign territory. Russia annexed Crimea and pulled out of the lease treaty it had with Ukraine for its Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol shorty thereafter – the lease had YEARS to go. Yes there is corruption on both sides. I am sure some of the money that has been sent to Ukraine has gone into corrupt pockets. If you look at the Russian argument that the West were the catalyst, given the post 1991 disbandment of the Warsaw Pact and the expansion of Nato, I think what Putin has done since 24/2 is not acceptable. Further, let’s look at the Warsaw Pact shall we? It invaded their fellow members: Hungary 1956.

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments from this article. To be honest, I find the soverignty argument far more compelling and motivating than the ‘democracy’ and ‘ideas’ rhetoric sprouted not by Ukraine, but Anglosphere researchers and advocates. It kind of puts Ukraine on a pedastal, too: she must live up to this idea of a ‘European, liberal and Enlightened nation’ in order to be considered for support. This is sad, as Ukraine has many conservative and Christian people interested in tradition and nationhood. They may not support the politically correct causes sprouted from London, but they are good people who do not deserve this war.
One argument I hear against supporting Ukraine is ‘neo- n@zis’ and the corruption ongoing. Yet while true, soverignty still matters.

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments from this article. To be honest, I find the soverignty argument far more compelling and motivating than the ‘democracy’ and ‘ideas’ rhetoric sprouted not by Ukraine, but Anglosphere researchers and advocates. It kind of puts Ukraine on a pedastal, too: she must live up to this idea of a ‘European, liberal and Enlightened nation’ in order to be considered for support. This is sad, as Ukraine has many conservative and Christian people interested in tradition and nationhood. They may not support the politically correct causes sprouted from London, but they are good people who do not deserve this war.
One argument I hear against supporting Ukraine is ‘neo- n@zis’ and the corruption ongoing. Yet while true, soverignty still matters.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
1 year ago

OK but you don’t really explain your scepticism. Yes some claims may be overblown but I think is reasonable to say that Russia is not democratic and Ukraine at least is trying and has traveled a long way in that direction. For that reason it should be strongly supported who does not believe “might is right”.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

It’s about sovereignty and respecting borders. Not about ‘diplomacy’ and ‘ideas’. Russia has blatantly disregarded Ukraine’s widely accepted post Soviet dissolution sovereign borders of 1991. They have ignored the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, where Ukraine agreed to hand their nuclear weapons back to Russia, which guaranteed Ukrainian sovereign territory. Russia annexed Crimea and pulled out of the lease treaty it had with Ukraine for its Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol shorty thereafter – the lease had YEARS to go. Yes there is corruption on both sides. I am sure some of the money that has been sent to Ukraine has gone into corrupt pockets. If you look at the Russian argument that the West were the catalyst, given the post 1991 disbandment of the Warsaw Pact and the expansion of Nato, I think what Putin has done since 24/2 is not acceptable. Further, let’s look at the Warsaw Pact shall we? It invaded their fellow members: Hungary 1956.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Google translate, or Google Lens translate. You just hover your phone over the text and ta da! It’s amazing!

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

All good points, I appreciate the link to Strelkov. To clarify, I have no issue in Ukraine fighting back Russian invasion, that is expected of any beseiged country. It’s also righteous to defend your soverignty. However, I’m sceptical of the grand claims made by (typically non-Ukrainians and non-Russians) of the war being this huge battle about democracy and liberal values. I’m less sympathetic to this, because it doesn’t match the cost it evokes, i.e tens of thousands dead Ukrainians and the country withered to dust. There’s an annoying trend to simplify harsh warfare into ideas, and whilst these sound lovely, I certainly belong to the realist school in International Relations. An American researcher at a Washington, DC think tank has different security objectives than a Ukrainian student. Because of this, their ‘war experience’ will vastly differ.
My original comment wasn’t to say what Ukraine should or shouldn’t do. Not my decision. Rather, this post was my viewpoint as an Australian, who engages with media frequently.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Google translate, or Google Lens translate. You just hover your phone over the text and ta da! It’s amazing!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

You are right that all sides engage in different narratives. You could try google lens translate, which is brilliant for translating Russian texts on Telegram. Thing is, you then have to know your source. If you’re getting into a Masters, I would recommend you subscribe to Konrad Muzyka’s ‘Ukraine Conflict Monitor’ on Rochan Consulting. It’s not expensive – around $20 a month. If nothing else, it will give you some experience analysing maps of the front lines. He’s a military analyst based in Gdansk. He’s excellent on Belarus and often provides links to Russian telegram sources.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

In what way is Ukraine defending itself from an unprovoked Russian invasion not a “righteous cause” ? And if it isn’t, where exactly is your threshold for such a cause ?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Since I try to get both Russian and western sides on this, that is an important point.
However, the pro-Russianm channels are seething at Russia’s poor performance.
Might want to check out Strelkov’s telegram channel:
https://t.me/s/strelkovii
Google translate can turnn it to English.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

You are right that all sides engage in different narratives. You could try google lens translate, which is brilliant for translating Russian texts on Telegram. Thing is, you then have to know your source. If you’re getting into a Masters, I would recommend you subscribe to Konrad Muzyka’s ‘Ukraine Conflict Monitor’ on Rochan Consulting. It’s not expensive – around $20 a month. If nothing else, it will give you some experience analysing maps of the front lines. He’s a military analyst based in Gdansk. He’s excellent on Belarus and often provides links to Russian telegram sources.

Madeleine Jones
Madeleine Jones
1 year ago

Yes, there is a need for Westerners to get clear and precise information about Ukraine / Russia. Much of the sources used in Western media are in English, French, German or Ukrainian, which narrows the scope of discussion. There’s little emphasis on other key players, such as Israel and Central Asian powers, although Turkey gets some attention. It’s not helped by fluent Russian speakers in the West, who clip snippets from Russian propaganda and say ‘I watch this so you don’t have to.’ But now I’m curious about things being taken out of context, or only seeing a small part of the story.
The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz cautioned that war involved the mobalisation of the military, the people and the government / parliament. It certainly feels as if I, an Australian trying to get into a Masters program in history, is mobalised. There is a significant investment in media communications to convey a certain narrative about eventual Ukraine success in Russia, and I’m questioning its authenticity. I don’t want to call anyone a liar here as I don’t know. Yet all sides in war engage in propaganda and misleading communication. It’s actually kind of crucial to eventual victory. That doesn’t, however, diminish the moral problems stemming from it. A Thomist might excuse this if the war itself was a righteous cause, but that’s a debate few leaders are willing to have.

Ben P
Ben P
1 year ago

The Russians aren’t interested in negotiation. Putin has already upped the numbers he plans to put into this next offensive. They’re doubling down, improving discipline and replacing generals – just as Stalin did in the last war.
Read Colonel Richard Kemp in today’s Telegraph.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben P

And yet they were close to a deal last April

Well done Boris eh

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Negotiations were on the cards, but the war is now in its middle game and both sides are preparing for an offensive. As you know, negotiations often end along the front lines that are in place at the time of the talks and neither side is happy with where they are right now. Russia will be lucky to keep Crimea. I think they should have taken what they could get back when peace was on the agenda, with a proposal for the 2014 status quo lines and a promise not to join Nato (but have some other security guarantees). That is no longer tenable.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Did I get a minus like? New to this so don’t understand. No offence taken if it was a minus like! All opinions welcomed!

Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I wouldnt worry about likes. The sides are pretty much set, especially for those that would provide a “dislike.” Comes with the territory.

Chris Struve
Chris Struve
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

I wouldnt worry about likes. The sides are pretty much set, especially for those that would provide a “dislike.” Comes with the territory.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

They probably would have taken that deal but we’ll never now thanks to Boris.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Did I get a minus like? New to this so don’t understand. No offence taken if it was a minus like! All opinions welcomed!

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

They probably would have taken that deal but we’ll never now thanks to Boris.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Negotiations were on the cards, but the war is now in its middle game and both sides are preparing for an offensive. As you know, negotiations often end along the front lines that are in place at the time of the talks and neither side is happy with where they are right now. Russia will be lucky to keep Crimea. I think they should have taken what they could get back when peace was on the agenda, with a proposal for the 2014 status quo lines and a promise not to join Nato (but have some other security guarantees). That is no longer tenable.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Ben P

And yet they were close to a deal last April

Well done Boris eh

Ben P
Ben P
1 year ago

The Russians aren’t interested in negotiation. Putin has already upped the numbers he plans to put into this next offensive. They’re doubling down, improving discipline and replacing generals – just as Stalin did in the last war.
Read Colonel Richard Kemp in today’s Telegraph.

Mustard Clementine
Mustard Clementine
1 year ago

I really struggle to understand how people who view this invasion in the way the author does, don’t see why giving in to someone like Putin is also dangerous.
Are they simply ignorant of his track record, over the last two decades?
Do they therefore actually believe he would abide by any sort of conciliatory peace agreement? Why do they believe this? Could they explain why this would work this time, when we have tried this with Putin before – and it has only ever emboldened him to escalate?
Do they also not see why it would be quite dangerous to set a precedent that all you have to do to get your way is threaten to use nuclear weapons, if we don’t give you everything you want? Why, in their minds, would this not actually increase the overall nuclear threat – in that it would encourage other countries that have such weapons to adopt the same strategy, and those that don’t, to build an arsenal in order to do so?
I get that nuclear threats are scary – they scare me too! I just really, really don’t get how anyone can think the right way to respond to them is to capitulate to all demands as fast as you can. It’s unfortunate that the world is not peaceful – but you can’t make it so by giving in to aggressors. They will see this as an opportunity to be ever more aggressive, and take whatever they want by force. This would deliver the opposite of a stable world.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Nice argument. Also you sound like a character from the board game ‘Cluedo’. Are you?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Nice argument. Also you sound like a character from the board game ‘Cluedo’. Are you?

Mustard Clementine
Mustard Clementine
1 year ago

I really struggle to understand how people who view this invasion in the way the author does, don’t see why giving in to someone like Putin is also dangerous.
Are they simply ignorant of his track record, over the last two decades?
Do they therefore actually believe he would abide by any sort of conciliatory peace agreement? Why do they believe this? Could they explain why this would work this time, when we have tried this with Putin before – and it has only ever emboldened him to escalate?
Do they also not see why it would be quite dangerous to set a precedent that all you have to do to get your way is threaten to use nuclear weapons, if we don’t give you everything you want? Why, in their minds, would this not actually increase the overall nuclear threat – in that it would encourage other countries that have such weapons to adopt the same strategy, and those that don’t, to build an arsenal in order to do so?
I get that nuclear threats are scary – they scare me too! I just really, really don’t get how anyone can think the right way to respond to them is to capitulate to all demands as fast as you can. It’s unfortunate that the world is not peaceful – but you can’t make it so by giving in to aggressors. They will see this as an opportunity to be ever more aggressive, and take whatever they want by force. This would deliver the opposite of a stable world.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

The Cold War was not a true war, but a geopolitical long game with proxy battles and other characteristics like those of a real armed conflict between the principal nation states.
Thankfully we are not in a real war with Russia yet. Nor was the disastrous Vietnam War an actual war with China. That’s not a attempt to minimize a major, escalated conflict that involves a bloody war, but I think we should reserve the unqualified “w-word” for something that includes one-on-one military engagement, which I hope will never occur between the US and Russia.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

The Cold War was not a true war, but a geopolitical long game with proxy battles and other characteristics like those of a real armed conflict between the principal nation states.
Thankfully we are not in a real war with Russia yet. Nor was the disastrous Vietnam War an actual war with China. That’s not a attempt to minimize a major, escalated conflict that involves a bloody war, but I think we should reserve the unqualified “w-word” for something that includes one-on-one military engagement, which I hope will never occur between the US and Russia.

George Knight
George Knight
1 year ago

This war is all down to Putin. Over the last twenty years he has assumed more and more power and listened to fewer and fewer advisors. This has resulted in him dreaming of rebuilding the old Soviet empire. This was to be his legacy.
Putin probably has one last roll of the dice to try and ensure that his ashes end up in the Kremlin wall. This is set to unfold over the next few months when the next large wave of conscripts will be launched against the Ukrainian carapace in the East.
With the benefit of Western advice and supplies I suspect the outcome will be similar to that of Hitler’s operation Barbarossa. If so, Putin will have failed in his dream – not Russia’s – and the country will have to emerge wiser and more prepared to be collaborative rather than combative.

George Knight
George Knight
1 year ago

This war is all down to Putin. Over the last twenty years he has assumed more and more power and listened to fewer and fewer advisors. This has resulted in him dreaming of rebuilding the old Soviet empire. This was to be his legacy.
Putin probably has one last roll of the dice to try and ensure that his ashes end up in the Kremlin wall. This is set to unfold over the next few months when the next large wave of conscripts will be launched against the Ukrainian carapace in the East.
With the benefit of Western advice and supplies I suspect the outcome will be similar to that of Hitler’s operation Barbarossa. If so, Putin will have failed in his dream – not Russia’s – and the country will have to emerge wiser and more prepared to be collaborative rather than combative.

Mark St Giles
Mark St Giles
1 year ago

“Western strategists who disastrously botched every major military forecast over the past 20 years, from Iraq to Afghanistan” are either in the ‘lets weaken Russia camp’ or in the ‘let’s back Ukraine till it wins back its territory’ camp. Both are unrealistic. Russia will not give up, since the economy of that vast country is replete with all kinds or resources and the Russians are well accustomed to hardship. Politically Ukraine will have to go on asking for, and potentially getting, resources and weapons from NATO. So it’s NATO against Russia, like it or not with all the fears about escalation to a nuclear exchange. The solution will require comprises on all sides. Ukraine agrees to give up its claim to Crimea and the Donbas rust bucket, both of which would most probably vote to be part of Russia in a plebiscite anyway: a tough sale for Zelensky but with the bitter medicine sweetened by accelerated EU and NATO membership. Everyone thinks they are winners which is the best outcome of all negotiations. Putin obviously: Ukraine since its border with Russia is now a border with the EU/NATO which will at worst deter or even at best prevent further incursions from a crazy Putin from all out war with NATO, and membership of the EU to help reconstruct the country: NATO which can now reduce defence expenditure and stop worrying about nuclear war: the EU (and specially Germany) gets a new member replete with natural resources (including lithium). What’s not to like? But who will have the political ability and determination to negotiate such a deal?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark St Giles

Not an unreasonable plan. But will Russia actually accept a Ukraine not under Russian control? No sign of that yet.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
1 year ago
Reply to  Mark St Giles

Not an unreasonable plan. But will Russia actually accept a Ukraine not under Russian control? No sign of that yet.

Mark St Giles
Mark St Giles
1 year ago

“Western strategists who disastrously botched every major military forecast over the past 20 years, from Iraq to Afghanistan” are either in the ‘lets weaken Russia camp’ or in the ‘let’s back Ukraine till it wins back its territory’ camp. Both are unrealistic. Russia will not give up, since the economy of that vast country is replete with all kinds or resources and the Russians are well accustomed to hardship. Politically Ukraine will have to go on asking for, and potentially getting, resources and weapons from NATO. So it’s NATO against Russia, like it or not with all the fears about escalation to a nuclear exchange. The solution will require comprises on all sides. Ukraine agrees to give up its claim to Crimea and the Donbas rust bucket, both of which would most probably vote to be part of Russia in a plebiscite anyway: a tough sale for Zelensky but with the bitter medicine sweetened by accelerated EU and NATO membership. Everyone thinks they are winners which is the best outcome of all negotiations. Putin obviously: Ukraine since its border with Russia is now a border with the EU/NATO which will at worst deter or even at best prevent further incursions from a crazy Putin from all out war with NATO, and membership of the EU to help reconstruct the country: NATO which can now reduce defence expenditure and stop worrying about nuclear war: the EU (and specially Germany) gets a new member replete with natural resources (including lithium). What’s not to like? But who will have the political ability and determination to negotiate such a deal?

michael harris
michael harris
1 year ago

The bad faith of Western, Ukrainian and Russian governments is on naked display.
They compete to send aid and rescue teams to the stricken people of Turkey and Syria while escalating their war and (in the case of Zelensky) touring Europe for tanks and aircraft.
The universe is well capable of handing out death, destruction and suffering in full measure. Why must these vain people, armed with words and ‘ideas’ add to the mayhem? They have not one scrap of honour or shame.
One thing only must be said to to the war party (on both sides).
JUST STOP IT
And to all those commenters here and elsewhere who egg them on and try to justify them this advice…
Button your lips and search your souls for the destruction within you.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  michael harris

Well said.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  michael harris

Well said.

michael harris
michael harris
1 year ago

The bad faith of Western, Ukrainian and Russian governments is on naked display.
They compete to send aid and rescue teams to the stricken people of Turkey and Syria while escalating their war and (in the case of Zelensky) touring Europe for tanks and aircraft.
The universe is well capable of handing out death, destruction and suffering in full measure. Why must these vain people, armed with words and ‘ideas’ add to the mayhem? They have not one scrap of honour or shame.
One thing only must be said to to the war party (on both sides).
JUST STOP IT
And to all those commenters here and elsewhere who egg them on and try to justify them this advice…
Button your lips and search your souls for the destruction within you.

M Lux
M Lux
1 year ago

Going through the comments on this article fills me with dread, since Unherd is presumably supposed to be a gathering place for people who don’t just blindly consume MSM garbage. But when it comes to this war, that narrative seems to be embraced wholeheartedly amongst a majority of commenters.
I suspect most of the avid pro-war crowd here are British or American and therefore either less concerned with the prospect of nuclear fallout due to geography (assuming only Ukraine gets nuked) or just happy that they’re actually doing well in a war for a change (ironically, the key to success seems to be not actually using their militaries).
Take it from someone who has lived through a war (that the Americans intervened in) – there are no winners. I doubt you’ll be looking back positively on your war fervor if and when your kids are sent to Ukraine/Russia to die for the sake of an American powerplay. Because let’s be honest, this isn’t about Ukraine (never was), it’s about Russia and the US/UK wanting to remove an obstacle to their ability to prance around the world starting wars/toppling governments without good reason. My favorite example of this being Iraq, a country invaded on a pretext significantly weaker (WMDs that never existed – a crime no one has answered for btw) than the one the Russians have offered here (the repression of an ethnic minority – a particular favorite of American interventionism in recent years, lets not forget).
This is not to say that the Russians are right or justified in their actions, but everyone here saying that it’s about international norms/treaties, human rights or morality is either drinking the MSM Kool-aid or lying – this war isn’t about Ukraine and it’s hypocritical to pretend that it is. Yemen, Myanmar and China are just some of the places where the “international community” has declined to intervene, not because it “wouldn’t be right” but because the Americans don’t care or don’t dare.
The Ukrainians are disposable manpower for the west, as attested to by a number of American politicians (Lindsey Graham in particular said it openly) and, to be fair, have proven to be better than even western militaries at accomplishing western war goals (weakening Russia in this instance).
Ukraine is therefore a Means to American Ends and this is why they aren’t being properly supported, instead they get just enough to keep the Russians on the ropes and to allow for a gradual, apparently imperceptible, escalation, which benefits the US (and possibly China), while Europe, Africa, Ukraine and Russia lose out in a variety of ways.
Ukraine is neither part of the EU nor NATO – attacking them is not the same as attacking Poland and comparing Putin to Hitler is not analysis, it’s just a wet dream/pre-justification for a certain brand of neocon warmonger.
I only hope we don’t all live to regret it.

Last edited 1 year ago by M Lux
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  M Lux

So nice to hear a sane, sensible, intelligent response.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  M Lux

So nice to hear a sane, sensible, intelligent response.

M Lux
M Lux
1 year ago

Going through the comments on this article fills me with dread, since Unherd is presumably supposed to be a gathering place for people who don’t just blindly consume MSM garbage. But when it comes to this war, that narrative seems to be embraced wholeheartedly amongst a majority of commenters.
I suspect most of the avid pro-war crowd here are British or American and therefore either less concerned with the prospect of nuclear fallout due to geography (assuming only Ukraine gets nuked) or just happy that they’re actually doing well in a war for a change (ironically, the key to success seems to be not actually using their militaries).
Take it from someone who has lived through a war (that the Americans intervened in) – there are no winners. I doubt you’ll be looking back positively on your war fervor if and when your kids are sent to Ukraine/Russia to die for the sake of an American powerplay. Because let’s be honest, this isn’t about Ukraine (never was), it’s about Russia and the US/UK wanting to remove an obstacle to their ability to prance around the world starting wars/toppling governments without good reason. My favorite example of this being Iraq, a country invaded on a pretext significantly weaker (WMDs that never existed – a crime no one has answered for btw) than the one the Russians have offered here (the repression of an ethnic minority – a particular favorite of American interventionism in recent years, lets not forget).
This is not to say that the Russians are right or justified in their actions, but everyone here saying that it’s about international norms/treaties, human rights or morality is either drinking the MSM Kool-aid or lying – this war isn’t about Ukraine and it’s hypocritical to pretend that it is. Yemen, Myanmar and China are just some of the places where the “international community” has declined to intervene, not because it “wouldn’t be right” but because the Americans don’t care or don’t dare.
The Ukrainians are disposable manpower for the west, as attested to by a number of American politicians (Lindsey Graham in particular said it openly) and, to be fair, have proven to be better than even western militaries at accomplishing western war goals (weakening Russia in this instance).
Ukraine is therefore a Means to American Ends and this is why they aren’t being properly supported, instead they get just enough to keep the Russians on the ropes and to allow for a gradual, apparently imperceptible, escalation, which benefits the US (and possibly China), while Europe, Africa, Ukraine and Russia lose out in a variety of ways.
Ukraine is neither part of the EU nor NATO – attacking them is not the same as attacking Poland and comparing Putin to Hitler is not analysis, it’s just a wet dream/pre-justification for a certain brand of neocon warmonger.
I only hope we don’t all live to regret it.

Last edited 1 year ago by M Lux
John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago

Douglas Macgregor has provided a sobering, contrarian assessment of this conflict throughout and it is difficult to dismiss his argument that Russia still has the manpower and means to crush the Ukrainians. By numbers alone the Russians can force the agenda and at some point the west has to decide if there really is a red line. Unfortunately it is difficult to see anything other than escalation of the war.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  John Dewhirst

But how many more people can Putin mobilise before it starts to cause anger in Russia? It’s one thing sending convicts and peasants from far flung Siberia into the meat grinder, it’s quite another when numerous young men from wealthier Moscow and St Petersburg are coming home in body bags

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Continue sending men from the outer reaches of the federation. I suspect the bulk of draft dodgers are those from the metropolitan centres and besides the educated elite likely has more opportunity to avoid the draft on account of occupation or political connections. I understand your point but Russia is a big country and fighting in the army is invariably better paid than other options.

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Continue sending men from the outer reaches of the federation. I suspect the bulk of draft dodgers are those from the metropolitan centres and besides the educated elite likely has more opportunity to avoid the draft on account of occupation or political connections. I understand your point but Russia is a big country and fighting in the army is invariably better paid than other options.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  John Dewhirst

But how many more people can Putin mobilise before it starts to cause anger in Russia? It’s one thing sending convicts and peasants from far flung Siberia into the meat grinder, it’s quite another when numerous young men from wealthier Moscow and St Petersburg are coming home in body bags

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago

Douglas Macgregor has provided a sobering, contrarian assessment of this conflict throughout and it is difficult to dismiss his argument that Russia still has the manpower and means to crush the Ukrainians. By numbers alone the Russians can force the agenda and at some point the west has to decide if there really is a red line. Unfortunately it is difficult to see anything other than escalation of the war.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine”
Bullshit. Putin is just trying to get his empire back and rhetoric aside nobody really believes that Russia is ‘existentially’ threatened. The very worst thing that will happen to Russia is that it is pushed out of Ukraine — that it’s invasion fails. Nobody on the planet has the slightest intention of invading Russia. NATO agonizes about escalation, they/we wish to hell this crime had never been committed but alas there is no choice but to stop Putin from getting away with it.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine”
Bullshit. Putin is just trying to get his empire back and rhetoric aside nobody really believes that Russia is ‘existentially’ threatened. The very worst thing that will happen to Russia is that it is pushed out of Ukraine — that it’s invasion fails. Nobody on the planet has the slightest intention of invading Russia. NATO agonizes about escalation, they/we wish to hell this crime had never been committed but alas there is no choice but to stop Putin from getting away with it.

Adrian Doble
Adrian Doble
1 year ago

The worst arguement to be in is where both sides know they are right.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Doble

Isn’t that the definition of an argument?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

An argument should be constructive. If you ‘know’ you are right, there is no room for engagement, compromise, understanding or advancement of knowledge

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

That’s a debate.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Argument etymology:
c. 1300, “to make reasoned statements to prove or refute a proposition,” from Old French arguer“maintain an opinion or view; harry, reproach, accuse, blame” (12c.), ultimately from Latin arguere “make clear, make known, prove, declare, demonstrate” (from a suffixed form of PIE root *arg- “to shine; white”). The transmission to French might be via arguere in a Medieval Latin sense of “to argue,” or from Latin argutare “to prattle, prate,” frequentative of arguere.

De Vaan says arguere is probably “a denominative verb ‘to make bright, enlighten’ to an adj. *argu- ‘bright’ as continued in argutus and outside Italic.” He cites a closely similar formation in Hittite arkuuae- “to make a plea.” The meaning “to oppose, dispute, contend in argument” is from late 14c. Related: Arguedarguing.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Very good. Now ask yourself what is understood when a person says, ‘I had an argument with Bob’, vs ‘Bob and I debated’.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

A debate is an argument from differing perspectives, with the hope that at the end, differences are considered. I think that argument in the etymological sense could be considered thus. Of course, sometimes meanings from words can alter over time and yes, there can be positive argument (debate); and negative arguments (fighting with someone). Both have their context, depending on how they are used, but are correct in either.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

A debate is an argument from differing perspectives, with the hope that at the end, differences are considered. I think that argument in the etymological sense could be considered thus. Of course, sometimes meanings from words can alter over time and yes, there can be positive argument (debate); and negative arguments (fighting with someone). Both have their context, depending on how they are used, but are correct in either.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Very good. Now ask yourself what is understood when a person says, ‘I had an argument with Bob’, vs ‘Bob and I debated’.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Argument etymology:
c. 1300, “to make reasoned statements to prove or refute a proposition,” from Old French arguer“maintain an opinion or view; harry, reproach, accuse, blame” (12c.), ultimately from Latin arguere “make clear, make known, prove, declare, demonstrate” (from a suffixed form of PIE root *arg- “to shine; white”). The transmission to French might be via arguere in a Medieval Latin sense of “to argue,” or from Latin argutare “to prattle, prate,” frequentative of arguere.

De Vaan says arguere is probably “a denominative verb ‘to make bright, enlighten’ to an adj. *argu- ‘bright’ as continued in argutus and outside Italic.” He cites a closely similar formation in Hittite arkuuae- “to make a plea.” The meaning “to oppose, dispute, contend in argument” is from late 14c. Related: Arguedarguing.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

That’s a debate.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

An argument should be constructive. If you ‘know’ you are right, there is no room for engagement, compromise, understanding or advancement of knowledge

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Doble

Isn’t that the definition of an argument?

Adrian Doble
Adrian Doble
1 year ago

The worst arguement to be in is where both sides know they are right.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Rather amusing that it’s Fazi, and not Putin, who is raising the spectre of nuclear war. Probably because Putin is more afraid of it than we are.
The writer needs to understand how almost all wars end.
Either A) with one side achieves most of its goals, or
B) with a stalemate.
Calls for negotiation almost never take effect until one of the two occurs.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The writer’s article has prompted a pretty good discussion! No harm in that!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The writer’s article has prompted a pretty good discussion! No harm in that!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Rather amusing that it’s Fazi, and not Putin, who is raising the spectre of nuclear war. Probably because Putin is more afraid of it than we are.
The writer needs to understand how almost all wars end.
Either A) with one side achieves most of its goals, or
B) with a stalemate.
Calls for negotiation almost never take effect until one of the two occurs.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago

The author could well be correct, in implying that ‘We are already at war with Russia”. The same might have been said about both Korea or Vietnam, in which Russia (USSR) supplied, not only ‘advanced’ weaponry, but in the case of the former, active military combatants (not forgetting China’s ‘small’ contribution), and in the second ‘technical’ support. Even in defeat, of the US, this didn’t necessarily imply escalation.
I take issue with the description of Ukraine being compared to Afghanistan. Principally because Ukraine, unlike Afghanistan, for all it’s faults, isn’t a fractious tribal society. People (Countries) involve themselves in Afghanistan because it is an unstable mess.
F16’s to Ukraine add nothing, and are a needless distraction, if not provocation (if only in ‘twitterarty’ terms). Not only are they ‘complex’ weapon systems, that require intensive training, but, like Russian tanks, add nothing ‘extraordinary’ unless employed ‘correctly’, as an all encompassing, sophisticated, plan. It’s not WW 1, air warfare has moved on.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Lewis

Oh aerial bombardment/warfare is VERY much still happening … I think the argument about training on the F16s is not meant for the current war in Ukraine, but as a deterrence for any future land grabs (should this war ever end…)

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Lewis

Oh aerial bombardment/warfare is VERY much still happening … I think the argument about training on the F16s is not meant for the current war in Ukraine, but as a deterrence for any future land grabs (should this war ever end…)

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago

The author could well be correct, in implying that ‘We are already at war with Russia”. The same might have been said about both Korea or Vietnam, in which Russia (USSR) supplied, not only ‘advanced’ weaponry, but in the case of the former, active military combatants (not forgetting China’s ‘small’ contribution), and in the second ‘technical’ support. Even in defeat, of the US, this didn’t necessarily imply escalation.
I take issue with the description of Ukraine being compared to Afghanistan. Principally because Ukraine, unlike Afghanistan, for all it’s faults, isn’t a fractious tribal society. People (Countries) involve themselves in Afghanistan because it is an unstable mess.
F16’s to Ukraine add nothing, and are a needless distraction, if not provocation (if only in ‘twitterarty’ terms). Not only are they ‘complex’ weapon systems, that require intensive training, but, like Russian tanks, add nothing ‘extraordinary’ unless employed ‘correctly’, as an all encompassing, sophisticated, plan. It’s not WW 1, air warfare has moved on.

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago

A bit of a statement of the obvious, I forget who said it but all wars are simply a means of progressing diplomacy.
of course there will be a negotiated solution… when the two sides “condition the situation on the ground” to the point both sides are willing to talk.
one or other side will beat up the other to the point where they recognise jaw jaw is better than war war…. Until then we continue conditioning the environment

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

This war is about more than ‘progressing diplomacy’. Russia invaded Ukraine violently and annexed territory. In 2014 it was less aggressive.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Another minus! Still figuring this out!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Another minus! Still figuring this out!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

This war is about more than ‘progressing diplomacy’. Russia invaded Ukraine violently and annexed territory. In 2014 it was less aggressive.

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago

A bit of a statement of the obvious, I forget who said it but all wars are simply a means of progressing diplomacy.
of course there will be a negotiated solution… when the two sides “condition the situation on the ground” to the point both sides are willing to talk.
one or other side will beat up the other to the point where they recognise jaw jaw is better than war war…. Until then we continue conditioning the environment

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago

The Doctrine of Affirmative Consent anyone?
“When I was in DC in November [2021], before the invasion, and asked for Stingers, they told me it was impossible. Now it’s possible. When I asked for 155-millimeter guns, the answer was no. HIMARS, no. HARM [missiles], no. Now all of that is a yes. Therefore, I’m certain that tomorrow there will be…F-16s.”
She said, no, she would not go out with me, ever…but next week we were on a date. When I asked for a kiss, she said ‘Not on your life’, but we spent that evening making-out. And when I asked, and when I asked, and when I asked again — it was no, no, a thousand times no. Today all of that is a yes! I’m certain now; aren’t you?
We like fairytales. Who doesn’t? Beautiful princess, the handsome prince, the doofus of a dragon, and the magic sword — what’s not to like? But when we confuse foreign policy with those fairytales….when we convince ourselves that our nuclear enemy will accept (graciously!) an on-the ground defeat of their military by a 3rd rate opponent wielding the 1st rate weaponry we gave them….we’re believing the fairytale.
Nuclear war, even so-called limited nuclear war with low-yield ground-burst nukes taking out major chunks of the Ukrainian army….or maybe (following our Hiroshima lead) just Kharkiv or Donetsk? What then would we do? Are we prepared to answer that question? Is NATO? Do we respond t*t for tat and hope it ends there? What happens if Krakow is the t*t for tat for t*t response?
Fairytales are fine at bedtime. Less fine in foreign policy..and downright horrible as military strategy involving nuclear city-killers.
As much as the West might prefer a seriously chastened and militarily weakened Russia, believing that Putin would accept a military humiliation when other means are at his disposal to STOP that humiliation…that wishful thinking calculation would be a horrendously bloody mistake (even if the initial blood is all Ukrainian).

B Davis
B Davis
1 year ago

The Doctrine of Affirmative Consent anyone?
“When I was in DC in November [2021], before the invasion, and asked for Stingers, they told me it was impossible. Now it’s possible. When I asked for 155-millimeter guns, the answer was no. HIMARS, no. HARM [missiles], no. Now all of that is a yes. Therefore, I’m certain that tomorrow there will be…F-16s.”
She said, no, she would not go out with me, ever…but next week we were on a date. When I asked for a kiss, she said ‘Not on your life’, but we spent that evening making-out. And when I asked, and when I asked, and when I asked again — it was no, no, a thousand times no. Today all of that is a yes! I’m certain now; aren’t you?
We like fairytales. Who doesn’t? Beautiful princess, the handsome prince, the doofus of a dragon, and the magic sword — what’s not to like? But when we confuse foreign policy with those fairytales….when we convince ourselves that our nuclear enemy will accept (graciously!) an on-the ground defeat of their military by a 3rd rate opponent wielding the 1st rate weaponry we gave them….we’re believing the fairytale.
Nuclear war, even so-called limited nuclear war with low-yield ground-burst nukes taking out major chunks of the Ukrainian army….or maybe (following our Hiroshima lead) just Kharkiv or Donetsk? What then would we do? Are we prepared to answer that question? Is NATO? Do we respond t*t for tat and hope it ends there? What happens if Krakow is the t*t for tat for t*t response?
Fairytales are fine at bedtime. Less fine in foreign policy..and downright horrible as military strategy involving nuclear city-killers.
As much as the West might prefer a seriously chastened and militarily weakened Russia, believing that Putin would accept a military humiliation when other means are at his disposal to STOP that humiliation…that wishful thinking calculation would be a horrendously bloody mistake (even if the initial blood is all Ukrainian).

Iris C
Iris C
1 year ago

No country seems to be concerned any longer about the effect the Ukrainian war is having on under-developed countries – in Africa particularly – where they have had to pay grossly increased prices for fuel and cannot get fertilizer for their poor, over-used land..
In any escalation, China is not going to support American-led NATO and would be supported by the countries in the Far East.. (Also, it is not America which is going to be hit with nuclear strikes).
If I remember correctly, at the outset of this conflict, support for the war in Ukraine, received only 37 votes in the UN with 5 against and the rest of the world abstaining.. It is time there was a reality check amongst the members there. They would be involved if this conflict escalated into a world war…

R S Foster
R S Foster
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

“…support for the Ukraine received only 37 votes…” – unsurprising. Most of the World is run by vicious psychopaths, keen to emulate Czar Putin and happy to encourage him. Fight them now, when we are (comparatively) strong…or close our eyes, stop our ears and go la-la-la…and then find we have to fight them when we are weak…
There is no third alternative…the World is full of bad people who hate us, want to kill us, and will do so if we let them…let’s not kid ourselves that abject self-abasement will save us…fight, or die…

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  R S Foster

You sound like a demented Zi¤nist with that level of Pananoia! Some of those countries are a little upset that the US invaded them and killed 100s of thousands of their people. Others are slightly miffed that the US toppled their democratically elected govts. And a few are not all that happy at having their oil and other resources looted. Several are grateful to Russia for assistance and even more grateful for China’s belt and road initiatives. It seems some countries are less intimidated by US hegemony, see the US empire toppling and are backing the newly emerging winners in world domination.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  R S Foster

You sound like a demented Zi¤nist with that level of Pananoia! Some of those countries are a little upset that the US invaded them and killed 100s of thousands of their people. Others are slightly miffed that the US toppled their democratically elected govts. And a few are not all that happy at having their oil and other resources looted. Several are grateful to Russia for assistance and even more grateful for China’s belt and road initiatives. It seems some countries are less intimidated by US hegemony, see the US empire toppling and are backing the newly emerging winners in world domination.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Your analysis has just one misconception: that the nukes won’t hit the US.. one minute after an American made nuke hits mainland Russia it’s game over …for all of us!

R S Foster
R S Foster
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

“…support for the Ukraine received only 37 votes…” – unsurprising. Most of the World is run by vicious psychopaths, keen to emulate Czar Putin and happy to encourage him. Fight them now, when we are (comparatively) strong…or close our eyes, stop our ears and go la-la-la…and then find we have to fight them when we are weak…
There is no third alternative…the World is full of bad people who hate us, want to kill us, and will do so if we let them…let’s not kid ourselves that abject self-abasement will save us…fight, or die…

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Your analysis has just one misconception: that the nukes won’t hit the US.. one minute after an American made nuke hits mainland Russia it’s game over …for all of us!

Iris C
Iris C
1 year ago

No country seems to be concerned any longer about the effect the Ukrainian war is having on under-developed countries – in Africa particularly – where they have had to pay grossly increased prices for fuel and cannot get fertilizer for their poor, over-used land..
In any escalation, China is not going to support American-led NATO and would be supported by the countries in the Far East.. (Also, it is not America which is going to be hit with nuclear strikes).
If I remember correctly, at the outset of this conflict, support for the war in Ukraine, received only 37 votes in the UN with 5 against and the rest of the world abstaining.. It is time there was a reality check amongst the members there. They would be involved if this conflict escalated into a world war…

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago

All through the Cold War (which sound strategic analysis would regard as WW III fought in slow-motion thanks to nuclear deterrence), the world was clear-eyed enough to avoid nuclear war when the stakes were which social system would dominate the planet and control of dozens of countries was at stake. How? By the principals never going at it directly — instead there were a series of campaigns (called “wars”, but really all part of the slow-motion WW III) which were fought by proxies on one side or both (though in Korea, there probably were some dogfights between American and Soviet pilots).
So now the West fights Putin’s revanchism by proxy. Does any serious analyst really think that the sober-mindedness that prevailed all through the Cold War has so eroded that one side or the other will blow up the planet over control of Ukraine?

Last edited 1 year ago by David Yetter
David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago

All through the Cold War (which sound strategic analysis would regard as WW III fought in slow-motion thanks to nuclear deterrence), the world was clear-eyed enough to avoid nuclear war when the stakes were which social system would dominate the planet and control of dozens of countries was at stake. How? By the principals never going at it directly — instead there were a series of campaigns (called “wars”, but really all part of the slow-motion WW III) which were fought by proxies on one side or both (though in Korea, there probably were some dogfights between American and Soviet pilots).
So now the West fights Putin’s revanchism by proxy. Does any serious analyst really think that the sober-mindedness that prevailed all through the Cold War has so eroded that one side or the other will blow up the planet over control of Ukraine?

Last edited 1 year ago by David Yetter
Andy E
Andy E
1 year ago

Such an orchestra playing “must win” symphony in the comments! I am losing interest in the present conflict – it is pretty clear to me that the Russians are going to win and dictate the terms pretty soon. Hundred or two hundred tanks or even a handful of fighters are not going to make a dent. Red army have already destroyed thousands of similar pieces of equipment. Their war production is quadrupled, IMF reports a minor GDP growth in ’23 and financial system is stable. They are laughing at the sanctions. That’s it, folks. We’ll see now how concern Mr. Biden + adm is going to be about life loss and that would be a nice pretext to lay options for Mr. Putin. Well, they did not care much when Ukraine still had a chance.
Now go and put your down-votes below and keep being delusional.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andy E
Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy E

“Their war production is quadrupled”. What a joke! What Red army? As for this Red army having destroyed thousands of Ukrainian tanks and fighters, again what a joke. Notwithstanding significant deliveries of western weapons and munitions to Ukraine (but tiny compared with the combined western inventories), far away the biggest supplier of weapons to Ukraine is the Russian army.
BTW “Andy”, English is not your mother tongue. Is your real name Andrei by any chance?

Howard Gleave
Howard Gleave
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy E

“Their war production is quadrupled”. What a joke! What Red army? As for this Red army having destroyed thousands of Ukrainian tanks and fighters, again what a joke. Notwithstanding significant deliveries of western weapons and munitions to Ukraine (but tiny compared with the combined western inventories), far away the biggest supplier of weapons to Ukraine is the Russian army.
BTW “Andy”, English is not your mother tongue. Is your real name Andrei by any chance?

Andy E
Andy E
1 year ago

Such an orchestra playing “must win” symphony in the comments! I am losing interest in the present conflict – it is pretty clear to me that the Russians are going to win and dictate the terms pretty soon. Hundred or two hundred tanks or even a handful of fighters are not going to make a dent. Red army have already destroyed thousands of similar pieces of equipment. Their war production is quadrupled, IMF reports a minor GDP growth in ’23 and financial system is stable. They are laughing at the sanctions. That’s it, folks. We’ll see now how concern Mr. Biden + adm is going to be about life loss and that would be a nice pretext to lay options for Mr. Putin. Well, they did not care much when Ukraine still had a chance.
Now go and put your down-votes below and keep being delusional.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andy E
Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago

Objective and truthful. This awful war was avoidable if only the Realists had not been sidelined in US policy. But so much of US foreign policy, and particularly post-Soviet policy, seems driven by people whose families had in previous generations taken refuge from European troubles in the US, and who purposefully entered their ‘calling’ at State or CIA to right the wrongs, as they saw them, of European history from the new Rome.
A visceral loathing of Russia and everything Russian is palpably at the core of their world view. They displaced the old professional foreign policy core who lacked their decisiveness, who they shifted out of their positions with contempt, while rallying with anyone who shared their views, such as John Bolton and a large swathe of pleasant, well-intentioned muscular religious soldiers. Madeleine Albright was a prime example. They are for the most part extremists, convinced they are saving the world from a fate worse than death.
Others in dark and dingy Old Europe, such as the Ukrainians, must make the vital personal sacrifices necessary to secure the world against what their parents, or grandparents, or great-great-great grandparents endured, but the great beacon of enduring freedom, standing alone in its massive continental isolation, is there to resolutely help.
Those of us who have no direct experience of this mania have any idea that it is at the very heart of this conflict. No idea, as the US sends the world into chaos from what was, in 1991, an almost perfectly clear blue sky. And a genuine new post-Soviet beginning.
To the Americans, back to the Mayflower, Europe has always needed saving. Back then they could only pray. Now they have more material means, furnished by self-help and Providence. And, by God, they’re going to save Europe to death.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Boughton
Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago

Good observations Andrew and it is surprising that they continue to fly under the radar. The visceral hatred of Russia by the children of Central European refugees that happen to run the US foreign policy should be something that gathers a wider appreciation.
They don’t want peace, they want revenge. These are seriously deluded people and to me, quite frightening.

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago

Good observations Andrew and it is surprising that they continue to fly under the radar. The visceral hatred of Russia by the children of Central European refugees that happen to run the US foreign policy should be something that gathers a wider appreciation.
They don’t want peace, they want revenge. These are seriously deluded people and to me, quite frightening.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago

Objective and truthful. This awful war was avoidable if only the Realists had not been sidelined in US policy. But so much of US foreign policy, and particularly post-Soviet policy, seems driven by people whose families had in previous generations taken refuge from European troubles in the US, and who purposefully entered their ‘calling’ at State or CIA to right the wrongs, as they saw them, of European history from the new Rome.
A visceral loathing of Russia and everything Russian is palpably at the core of their world view. They displaced the old professional foreign policy core who lacked their decisiveness, who they shifted out of their positions with contempt, while rallying with anyone who shared their views, such as John Bolton and a large swathe of pleasant, well-intentioned muscular religious soldiers. Madeleine Albright was a prime example. They are for the most part extremists, convinced they are saving the world from a fate worse than death.
Others in dark and dingy Old Europe, such as the Ukrainians, must make the vital personal sacrifices necessary to secure the world against what their parents, or grandparents, or great-great-great grandparents endured, but the great beacon of enduring freedom, standing alone in its massive continental isolation, is there to resolutely help.
Those of us who have no direct experience of this mania have any idea that it is at the very heart of this conflict. No idea, as the US sends the world into chaos from what was, in 1991, an almost perfectly clear blue sky. And a genuine new post-Soviet beginning.
To the Americans, back to the Mayflower, Europe has always needed saving. Back then they could only pray. Now they have more material means, furnished by self-help and Providence. And, by God, they’re going to save Europe to death.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Boughton
Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago

Everyone should read the full article by Douglas Macgregor. He thinks Ukraine is losing and their forces will be overrun by the Russians in the spring. This is the exact opposite of what the American media is reporting. Americans are getting a steady diet of brave Ukrainians standing up to Russia’s onslaught and of atrocities against civilians. It should concern everyone when the media in the West spouts the party line and citizens don’t really know what is going on. It is also concerning that so many have bought into the propaganda.
This war could have been avoided. The Biden administration refused to negotiate with Russia to prevent it. Now we are pouring arms paid for by our taxes into a losing cause. This is ridiculous, all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies. The good news is as long as Russia is winning, they won’t resort nuclear weapons. Let’s hope it’s over by the fall. Biden lost my vote when he let this conflict start and he will lose everyone else’s when he is forced to back down in his proxy war.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

“all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies”
Isn’t that the whole point. Wall St makes its biggest profits from defence contractors. To continue doing that the bankers have to frighten American taxpayers into accepting the pauperisation of the majority. Putin fits the bill perfectly.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

If the west believed the Ukrainians would be easily overrun I don’t think they’d be handing over billions of dollars, as well as the latest military equipment to the Ukrainians

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Of course they would, they will be blamed for the defeat if they don’t give Zelensky everything he wants. A lot of people in the West are making money from this war as well.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

The west simply wouldn’t risk their modern equipment and technology falling into Russian hands if defeat was certain

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I suspect much of it already has fallen into Russian hands…and the black market. Please don’t forget that Ukraine is the second most corrupt country in Europe, behind Russia, not some shining beacon of democracy as the Western press would have you believe.

Rocky Martiano
Rocky Martiano
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I suspect much of it already has fallen into Russian hands…and the black market. Please don’t forget that Ukraine is the second most corrupt country in Europe, behind Russia, not some shining beacon of democracy as the Western press would have you believe.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

The west simply wouldn’t risk their modern equipment and technology falling into Russian hands if defeat was certain

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Of course they would, they will be blamed for the defeat if they don’t give Zelensky everything he wants. A lot of people in the West are making money from this war as well.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Link to article you mention in the first sentence?

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

The link is in the piece where he mentions Macgregor.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Struggling to find it. This is quite a long debate/thread. Apologies. Worth reading the argument in detail? If so, would you mind re-sending the link? So sorry to disturb.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Many thanks for the link. Will take a look tomorrow!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Many thanks for the link. Will take a look tomorrow!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Struggling to find it. This is quite a long debate/thread. Apologies. Worth reading the argument in detail? If so, would you mind re-sending the link? So sorry to disturb.

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Look for yourself on YouTube, MacGregor has not been shy in broadcasting his views. Plenty of content to choose from.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Dewhirst

Thank you.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  John Dewhirst

Thank you.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

The link is in the piece where he mentions Macgregor.

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Look for yourself on YouTube, MacGregor has not been shy in broadcasting his views. Plenty of content to choose from.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

“all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies”
Isn’t that the whole point. Wall St makes its biggest profits from defence contractors. To continue doing that the bankers have to frighten American taxpayers into accepting the pauperisation of the majority. Putin fits the bill perfectly.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

If the west believed the Ukrainians would be easily overrun I don’t think they’d be handing over billions of dollars, as well as the latest military equipment to the Ukrainians

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Benjamin Greco

Link to article you mention in the first sentence?

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
1 year ago

Everyone should read the full article by Douglas Macgregor. He thinks Ukraine is losing and their forces will be overrun by the Russians in the spring. This is the exact opposite of what the American media is reporting. Americans are getting a steady diet of brave Ukrainians standing up to Russia’s onslaught and of atrocities against civilians. It should concern everyone when the media in the West spouts the party line and citizens don’t really know what is going on. It is also concerning that so many have bought into the propaganda.
This war could have been avoided. The Biden administration refused to negotiate with Russia to prevent it. Now we are pouring arms paid for by our taxes into a losing cause. This is ridiculous, all we are doing is filling the coffers of defense companies. The good news is as long as Russia is winning, they won’t resort nuclear weapons. Let’s hope it’s over by the fall. Biden lost my vote when he let this conflict start and he will lose everyone else’s when he is forced to back down in his proxy war.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. America was at war with Russia. America had always been at war with Russia.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. America was at war with Russia. America had always been at war with Russia.

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago

Excellent balanced article with a particularly sensible last paragraph.

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago

Excellent balanced article with a particularly sensible last paragraph.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago

We now have Zelensky almost instructing our very willing MPs to provide more weapons and money. It reminds me of Poland demanding that we invade Germany because of a promise to keep a corrupt government in power.

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Zelensky’s impact is not so much his message as his demonstration of leadership. Our politicians are in thrall to him because they’ve seen nothing like it and are a millions miles removed from actually providing leadership themselves.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Dewhirst

Zelenskyy is nothing more than a well schooled, obedient puppet.. a good actor – I’ll give you that – but that is his profession! If leading your population into death and your country into ruins is good leadership give me a bad leader any day!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  John Dewhirst

Zelenskyy is nothing more than a well schooled, obedient puppet.. a good actor – I’ll give you that – but that is his profession! If leading your population into death and your country into ruins is good leadership give me a bad leader any day!

John Dewhirst
John Dewhirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

Zelensky’s impact is not so much his message as his demonstration of leadership. Our politicians are in thrall to him because they’ve seen nothing like it and are a millions miles removed from actually providing leadership themselves.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago

We now have Zelensky almost instructing our very willing MPs to provide more weapons and money. It reminds me of Poland demanding that we invade Germany because of a promise to keep a corrupt government in power.

eric james
eric james
1 year ago

Russia would have been destroyed by the German army in WW2 if it wasn’t for the help and factories of the West particularly America.Putins invasion of Ukraine is utterly unforgivable and excuses should not be made in support of Russia.This war shouild not have started and Russia can end it tomorrow by getting their murdering raping soldiers out of Ukraine

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  eric james

Everything you say is false.. typical of a gullible, MSM saturated, poorly educated, not too smart American sucker. Have a listen to your former White House intelligence adviser Scott Ritter or your Col. Douglas McGregor who are smart enough and brave enough to tell it like it is! You will learn a great deal unless your mind is so narrow and your brain so dead that you are beyond saving!

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  eric james

Everything you say is false.. typical of a gullible, MSM saturated, poorly educated, not too smart American sucker. Have a listen to your former White House intelligence adviser Scott Ritter or your Col. Douglas McGregor who are smart enough and brave enough to tell it like it is! You will learn a great deal unless your mind is so narrow and your brain so dead that you are beyond saving!

eric james
eric james
1 year ago

Russia would have been destroyed by the German army in WW2 if it wasn’t for the help and factories of the West particularly America.Putins invasion of Ukraine is utterly unforgivable and excuses should not be made in support of Russia.This war shouild not have started and Russia can end it tomorrow by getting their murdering raping soldiers out of Ukraine

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

You say:
“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine …”
Rubbish.
The truth is that, to its brainwashed plebs, Russia’s governing mafia is presenting a narrative of a fight against an existential threat in Ukraine.
Putin is a bullshitter, but he’s smart enough not to believe his own bullshit.
More than can be said about you mate. 

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

You say:
“The truth is that, from Russia’s perspective, it is fighting against what it perceives to be an existential threat in Ukraine …”
Rubbish.
The truth is that, to its brainwashed plebs, Russia’s governing mafia is presenting a narrative of a fight against an existential threat in Ukraine.
Putin is a bullshitter, but he’s smart enough not to believe his own bullshit.
More than can be said about you mate. 

Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
1 year ago

Russia is the aggressor constantly threatening nuclear war. Author comes off as a glorified russian troll in that he avoids mentioning what really is at stake here: either the West stops Russia now or it will continue advancing westwards, destroying countries and democracies in its path.

Nuclear war has always been a possibility. One thing is sure, though. There will be many people around the world surviving a nuclear exchange since Russia will concentrate on nuking Europe and the US. But there will be no russians left.

Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
1 year ago

Russia is the aggressor constantly threatening nuclear war. Author comes off as a glorified russian troll in that he avoids mentioning what really is at stake here: either the West stops Russia now or it will continue advancing westwards, destroying countries and democracies in its path.

Nuclear war has always been a possibility. One thing is sure, though. There will be many people around the world surviving a nuclear exchange since Russia will concentrate on nuking Europe and the US. But there will be no russians left.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
1 year ago

‘this is the most likely way in which the war will end — with a deal in which neither side loses or wins.’ When all the cities and towns in Ukraine have been reduced by Russia to rubble, and a quarter of its land occupied, ‘neither side loses’? Are you mad?

James Kirk
James Kirk
1 year ago

Escalation is the word. Putin’s 100,000 strong invasion assumed a quick victory and regime change. With nowhere near enough troops to hold ground, supply his army and administer the local population, he got a bloody nose for his trouble. He’s painted himself into a corner, he’ll be replaced and I doubt his people have any appetite to continue. If NATO pile in now it will provoke the Russian bear.

James Kirk
James Kirk
1 year ago

Escalation is the word. Putin’s 100,000 strong invasion assumed a quick victory and regime change. With nowhere near enough troops to hold ground, supply his army and administer the local population, he got a bloody nose for his trouble. He’s painted himself into a corner, he’ll be replaced and I doubt his people have any appetite to continue. If NATO pile in now it will provoke the Russian bear.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago

Excuse me? Is Ukraine Russian territory? If not, how is anything the West gives to, lends to, or makes available to Ukraine IS defensive, while it is used entirely and exclusively to liberate sovereign Ukrainian territory from Russian invasion. The rest is semantics.

Kate Heusser
Kate Heusser
1 year ago

Excuse me? Is Ukraine Russian territory? If not, how is anything the West gives to, lends to, or makes available to Ukraine IS defensive, while it is used entirely and exclusively to liberate sovereign Ukrainian territory from Russian invasion. The rest is semantics.

R S Foster
R S Foster
1 year ago

Good…my Father and a number of his friends went on a cycling tour of Germany in the Olympic Year, 1936…and came home to join the Reserve Forces. If somebody had paid attention to that message, the world might now be a better and more civilized place. Nothing deals with people like Putin but the certainty of certain defeat and imminent death. The same being true of the Celestial Emperor Xi and any number of competing would-be Caliphs. Can we please get serious now? Our way of running the show is just objectively better for most people in most places most of the time. Cut the cringe, and crack the whip….

R S Foster
R S Foster
1 year ago
Reply to  R S Foster

…down-vote…Putin troll about…or would the Czar or the Celestial Emperor run a better, kinder world? Answers on a post-card please..?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  R S Foster

“Our way of running the show is …better” – maybe, if you’re white, christian, democratic, right/centrist and have no oil!
By contrast, if you’re brown, muslim, left-wing nondemocratic and/or have lots of oil you might not agree with that statement! You might think losing a million or so of your countrymen in an entirely unprovoked brutal invasion, having your country bombed into the middle ages and your oil stolen might not be all that great!

R S Foster
R S Foster
1 year ago
Reply to  R S Foster

…down-vote…Putin troll about…or would the Czar or the Celestial Emperor run a better, kinder world? Answers on a post-card please..?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  R S Foster

“Our way of running the show is …better” – maybe, if you’re white, christian, democratic, right/centrist and have no oil!
By contrast, if you’re brown, muslim, left-wing nondemocratic and/or have lots of oil you might not agree with that statement! You might think losing a million or so of your countrymen in an entirely unprovoked brutal invasion, having your country bombed into the middle ages and your oil stolen might not be all that great!

R S Foster
R S Foster
1 year ago

Good…my Father and a number of his friends went on a cycling tour of Germany in the Olympic Year, 1936…and came home to join the Reserve Forces. If somebody had paid attention to that message, the world might now be a better and more civilized place. Nothing deals with people like Putin but the certainty of certain defeat and imminent death. The same being true of the Celestial Emperor Xi and any number of competing would-be Caliphs. Can we please get serious now? Our way of running the show is just objectively better for most people in most places most of the time. Cut the cringe, and crack the whip….

James Athill
James Athill
1 year ago

I don’t buy it. Only the realisation that they cannot hold conquered territory will get the Russians to the negotiating table, where they just might be given some. This means the West must stare them down with MAD while providing the arms and, who knows, maybe some of the people Ukraine needs to destroy the invading force.

James Athill
James Athill
1 year ago

I don’t buy it. Only the realisation that they cannot hold conquered territory will get the Russians to the negotiating table, where they just might be given some. This means the West must stare them down with MAD while providing the arms and, who knows, maybe some of the people Ukraine needs to destroy the invading force.

Hendrik Mentz
Hendrik Mentz
1 year ago

Theories abound. Another, to my mind plausible – given the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline – is suggested by Catherine Austin Fitts interviewed by Taylor Hudak in ‘The financial coup d’état’ for The Source, namely, (from memory) that this is a war between the US and Europe aimed at combatting any influence Russia was gaining (over Europe) by depopulating the Ukraine, which is itself a breadbasket. Another way, maybe, to look at things.

Hendrik Mentz
Hendrik Mentz
1 year ago

Theories abound. Another, to my mind plausible – given the blowing up of the Nord Stream pipeline – is suggested by Catherine Austin Fitts interviewed by Taylor Hudak in ‘The financial coup d’état’ for The Source, namely, (from memory) that this is a war between the US and Europe aimed at combatting any influence Russia was gaining (over Europe) by depopulating the Ukraine, which is itself a breadbasket. Another way, maybe, to look at things.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war. Peace Now! NO More Weapons or money – STOP THE WAR, Peace Now.

Look – Russia does not have to use Nukes to destroy the world.

In this day of just in time shipments and production is very distant from where the consumption is – just disrupt that – the economic chaos will break every economy. Millions of Westerners starving, Power out, grids down, water flows messed up, trains and transport all snarled – and Billions globally starve. EASY.

Blow up undersea cables – the trade stops. Blow up some super tankers in the straits of Hormuz and Malakka. Hit some Gas Pipelines, maybe some air/fuel bombs over huge oilfields, hack some railroad headquarters – BILLIONS DIE. This is something which could happen –

Do you stupid sheep not realize we live in glass cities, and supply them with glass bottomed boats?

WWIII does not have to go NUK – 5th Generation Warfare. Hay – how about some Chemical/Biological Warfare? You cannot believe how far along that is. Dirty Bombs? Poisoning water supplies? I would not expect these, this is war crimes – but you never know, keep making things worse….

Come on you Neo-Con warmongers –

DO NOT CAUSE WWIII IT IS NOT SURVIVABLE IN THE MODERN Economy, Industry, agriculture, commodities, energy, transport, they would Crash..

Any of you know WWII?

Japan came to war because we cut their steel and oil supply. Britain was a few freighters from mass starvation and lack of weapons to fight Germany from U-Boats blockading the North Atlantic.We almost starved Japan to death by stopping shipping at the end. Modern supply chains are very fragile.

5th generation War is not the old wars. Stop poking a bear when you have it backed into a corner. This is not ‘war’ about Ukraine – we do not know what it really is about – but it needs to stop. Peace Now.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

We could have peace tomorrow, all Putin has to do is move his troops back to Russia. Simples

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

“I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war”
I didn’t realise that Unherd had an editorial line.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

If it ever does, it’s finished. Each article in isolation can’t be taken as an “editorial line” (unless you’re Elliott Bjorn) and soon enough another article will appear – whatever the topic – to counterbalance it. Certainly not all, but at least some of these articles just wouldn’t appear in MSM.
It makes me smile every time someone threatens to withdraw their Unherd subscription on the basis of editorial bias. Simply argue your own view against what’s published, and see how that’s received. Try to do so as if this is Twitter however, and you’re clearly in the wrong place, and probably won’t last long.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Op Eds are not ‘Editorial Lines’. They are Op Eds. Since when should different opinions, (unless they incite hatred), not be published? I would also add that, whilst I have enjoyed reading the comments, most journalists write and then don’t look beyond. It would be too hurtful otherwise. For me, the piece has provoked a good discussion. That’s worth its publication.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Op Eds are not ‘Editorial Lines’. They are Op Eds. Since when should different opinions, (unless they incite hatred), not be published? I would also add that, whilst I have enjoyed reading the comments, most journalists write and then don’t look beyond. It would be too hurtful otherwise. For me, the piece has provoked a good discussion. That’s worth its publication.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

If it ever does, it’s finished. Each article in isolation can’t be taken as an “editorial line” (unless you’re Elliott Bjorn) and soon enough another article will appear – whatever the topic – to counterbalance it. Certainly not all, but at least some of these articles just wouldn’t appear in MSM.
It makes me smile every time someone threatens to withdraw their Unherd subscription on the basis of editorial bias. Simply argue your own view against what’s published, and see how that’s received. Try to do so as if this is Twitter however, and you’re clearly in the wrong place, and probably won’t last long.

Karen Fleming
Karen Fleming
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Neocon warmongers and stupid sheep. I was actually starting to think about and weigh your views until the aggressive name calling. You lose every time you do that.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

Excitable isn’t he.
He sounds English. I can only apologise.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

In one of his many pseudonyms he claimed to be an Englishman who emigrated to the States. They can keep him I reckon

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It IS something completely different.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It IS something completely different.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I’m Scottish, in my defence. But the English have been pretty good friends to Ukraine since 24/2.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

In one of his many pseudonyms he claimed to be an Englishman who emigrated to the States. They can keep him I reckon

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I’m Scottish, in my defence. But the English have been pretty good friends to Ukraine since 24/2.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

“You must heed my words, you stupid sheep! Where are you idiots going?”

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

‘Neocon warmongers’? I don’t think anyone wanted this war. Imagine the West Coast of America was Ukraine, such as was the risk in WW2 with Japanese expansion and Pearl Harbour. Should we accept annexation by violent means (by any means, in fact?) Just saying. No attack intended and very happy to to give your argument full merit.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

Excitable isn’t he.
He sounds English. I can only apologise.

Last edited 1 year ago by polidori redux
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

“You must heed my words, you stupid sheep! Where are you idiots going?”

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Karen Fleming

‘Neocon warmongers’? I don’t think anyone wanted this war. Imagine the West Coast of America was Ukraine, such as was the risk in WW2 with Japanese expansion and Pearl Harbour. Should we accept annexation by violent means (by any means, in fact?) Just saying. No attack intended and very happy to to give your argument full merit.

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

What happens when Putin decides to de-nazify the Baltics, the Caucasus, the Stans & anywhere else he fancies? I suppose he gets them too?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Are you one of those that thinks there were no n*zis?

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That’s a bit of a stretch. There were articles about Ukrainian Nazis over the last few years, but tellingly they were in the sort of publications that don’t generally need much evidence before joining a lynch mob.

Are you one of those people who believes the existence of a neo-Nazi element in a country justifies invasion?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

No I am not. The reasons for the invasion are many and complex. Mostly russias fault yes probably. The west, yes probably a bit our fault too. The n*zis reason was spun into the Russian propaganda yes to justify the invasion, I am not saying it was good justification, or justification at all, just that there are actually n*zis there. Not all the Ukrainians by a long way. But there is a pretty large network. That was my point. See my source dump on this article, if you want info not from a crap publication.

https://unherd.com/thepost/how-germanys-tanks-could-make-peace-more-likely/

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I don’t need to open the link B Emery as there is credibility in what you say.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thank you, I think it’s good to stick with the facts if we can. I’m always happy to be corrected.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Thank you, I think it’s good to stick with the facts if we can. I’m always happy to be corrected.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I don’t need to open the link B Emery as there is credibility in what you say.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Azov Batallion could be compared to ‘Neo Nazis’. But that was in the past and some changed. Plus it doesn’t justify Putin’s invasion.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

No I am not. The reasons for the invasion are many and complex. Mostly russias fault yes probably. The west, yes probably a bit our fault too. The n*zis reason was spun into the Russian propaganda yes to justify the invasion, I am not saying it was good justification, or justification at all, just that there are actually n*zis there. Not all the Ukrainians by a long way. But there is a pretty large network. That was my point. See my source dump on this article, if you want info not from a crap publication.

https://unherd.com/thepost/how-germanys-tanks-could-make-peace-more-likely/

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Azov Batallion could be compared to ‘Neo Nazis’. But that was in the past and some changed. Plus it doesn’t justify Putin’s invasion.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Russia has a much bigger and stronger far right faction than Ukraine ever did. The far right in Ukraine never received more than a few percentage points in the elections, while in Russia they have seats in government. Therefore would the west be justified invading Russia to de-Nazify it?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I did not say that there wasn’t far right in Russia, I did not say that it was justification, I simply stated a fact. Would you like me to provide a source on the extreme factions in Russia for balance next time? Or some sort of disclaimer, I will do that, keep it fair. I had assumed we were all grown ups well aware russia is pretty corrupt with its own brand of crazy nutter groups.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I did not say that there wasn’t far right in Russia, I did not say that it was justification, I simply stated a fact. Would you like me to provide a source on the extreme factions in Russia for balance next time? Or some sort of disclaimer, I will do that, keep it fair. I had assumed we were all grown ups well aware russia is pretty corrupt with its own brand of crazy nutter groups.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That’s a bit of a stretch. There were articles about Ukrainian Nazis over the last few years, but tellingly they were in the sort of publications that don’t generally need much evidence before joining a lynch mob.

Are you one of those people who believes the existence of a neo-Nazi element in a country justifies invasion?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Russia has a much bigger and stronger far right faction than Ukraine ever did. The far right in Ukraine never received more than a few percentage points in the elections, while in Russia they have seats in government. Therefore would the west be justified invading Russia to de-Nazify it?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

Are you one of those that thinks there were no n*zis?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

People down voting you should perhaps listen. If America and China go for Taiwan too:

In a nod to current tensions between China and Taiwan, Mr Wray also said during his speech that any forcible takeover of Taipei by Beijing “would represent one of the most horrific business disruptions the world has ever seen”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/101215972

This war is already wrecking supply chains, wrecking industry. Mr Bjorn is correct, if russia start cutting under sea cables or blowing up lng tankers we are in serious trouble. Modern supply chains are already a mess from covid. I would strongly advise heeding Mr Bjorns warning.
Peace deal, like musk suggested. We must stop escalating this.

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/02/21/uncovered-document-reveals-soviet-union-was-promised-no-nato-expansion-at-end-of-cold-war/

“The Russian invasion of Ukraine is inflicting untold suffering on the Ukrainian people, with profound global implications. The prospects for peace keep diminishing,” Guterres told the UN General Assembly.

“I fear the world is not sleepwalking into a wider war. I fear it is doing so with its eyes wide open,” he added

https://news.antiwar.com/2023/02/06/un-chief-fears-russia-ukraine-conflict-could-turn-into-wider-war/

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

We’ve listened, weighed all the pros and cons since the Russians invaded, and disagree. That’s what Comments are for, but at least some of the downvotes will be about Elliot’s use of (or should i say mangling of) language, which is a complete turn off and counterproductive.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

OK, you disagree, that’s fine. I’m not stopping you. Just drawing attention to points I thought were good. What’s wrong with mangled language? Who gets to judge its counter productive? I thought it was pretty tame…..

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Also do you disagree we should consider peace? Disagree it has been discussed in some parts of us government that there will, at some point perhaps have to be a negotiation? Do you disagree escalation could further disrupt supply chains?

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Read the post by Mustard Clementine above. The comment has saved me the trouble of answering since it mirrors my opinion pretty much exactly.

My other point, about the use of language, is possibly more important than you give it credit for. I’d call it an abuse of language, which hinders understanding, and is completely unnecessary. It’s sub-Twitter, which this forum really can do without as a place for civilised debate, which can be vehement without being execrable.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

OK, first up, I don’t know what execrable mjeans. I will Google it. Second up, your writing style depends on where you come from and how well educated you are. How much credo you give to ‘use of language’ entirely depends on those things. I haven’t a clue what constitutes ‘an abuse of language’, is there a guidebook? My writing is frequently shit. I take it in my stride because I’m trying do better, I like to try out different ways of writing stuff, ‘execrable’ or not. My crap writing might hinder people understanding what I’m trying to say, so should I go to twitter? What is the line for ‘civilised debate’? Do you say it has become uncivilised when it gets to pistols at dawn or what? Do I need to show a degree at the gate? Bad luck for me then.
Edit: written on emery paper Mr Murray 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Ms Emery, we had all this in 1914 with the wicked Kaiser, then again in 1939 with mad Adolph, and thus sacrificed ourselves on the Altar of Virtue.

This time we should be much more circumspect and avoid any unnecessary escalation, if we are NOT to repeat the blunders of the not too distant past.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, that’s also my personal feeling, I think the west has become very comfortable and complacent. I think Mr Bjorn perhaps appreciates the situation there better than most. I’ll keep posting for the try not to escalate the war side.
Can I ask, do you think we are perhaps too far down the road now already? We seem to be positively steaming forward at the moment.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

No I think we are safe for now, and it’s more a case of “ smoke and mirrors “,
However we must be careful not to start believing our own hubris and then doing something particularly stupid.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, I have read the us might not want it to carry on much past summer ‘so they can concentrate on china’ I think the line was. And so may push for negotiation then, I suppose time will tell. They are getting very excited about the Chinese spy balloon at the moment.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, I have read the us might not want it to carry on much past summer ‘so they can concentrate on china’ I think the line was. And so may push for negotiation then, I suppose time will tell. They are getting very excited about the Chinese spy balloon at the moment.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

No I think we are safe for now, and it’s more a case of “ smoke and mirrors “,
However we must be careful not to start believing our own hubris and then doing something particularly stupid.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

Do you honestly believe young Adolph would have left us alone if we hadn’t intervened after his invasion of Poland? Once he’d conquered mainland Europe and rebuilt his arsenal why wouldn’t he have simply carried on into London?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Do you really believe he would/could have conquered the Soviet Union?

Also he appears to have been a bit on an Anglophile, so perhaps we might have come to some arrangement?

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Personally I wouldn’t trust Hitler, albeit post-humously. He’s not a man I see as respecting Treaties/Agreements.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Personally I wouldn’t trust Hitler, albeit post-humously. He’s not a man I see as respecting Treaties/Agreements.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Do you really believe he would/could have conquered the Soviet Union?

Also he appears to have been a bit on an Anglophile, so perhaps we might have come to some arrangement?

Last edited 1 year ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Thank you, that’s also my personal feeling, I think the west has become very comfortable and complacent. I think Mr Bjorn perhaps appreciates the situation there better than most. I’ll keep posting for the try not to escalate the war side.
Can I ask, do you think we are perhaps too far down the road now already? We seem to be positively steaming forward at the moment.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

Do you honestly believe young Adolph would have left us alone if we hadn’t intervened after his invasion of Poland? Once he’d conquered mainland Europe and rebuilt his arsenal why wouldn’t he have simply carried on into London?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Ms Emery, we had all this in 1914 with the wicked Kaiser, then again in 1939 with mad Adolph, and thus sacrificed ourselves on the Altar of Virtue.

This time we should be much more circumspect and avoid any unnecessary escalation, if we are NOT to repeat the blunders of the not too distant past.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

OK, first up, I don’t know what execrable mjeans. I will Google it. Second up, your writing style depends on where you come from and how well educated you are. How much credo you give to ‘use of language’ entirely depends on those things. I haven’t a clue what constitutes ‘an abuse of language’, is there a guidebook? My writing is frequently shit. I take it in my stride because I’m trying do better, I like to try out different ways of writing stuff, ‘execrable’ or not. My crap writing might hinder people understanding what I’m trying to say, so should I go to twitter? What is the line for ‘civilised debate’? Do you say it has become uncivilised when it gets to pistols at dawn or what? Do I need to show a degree at the gate? Bad luck for me then.
Edit: written on emery paper Mr Murray 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Peace should always be considered. The problem lies in the fact that those calling for peace generally do so by demanding that Ukraine stops defending itself and allows Russia to dictate its foreign policy. I never hear what concessions Russia should give in order to stop the conflict

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Here comes the virtuous to nuke us to bed.
I am waving the let’s negotiate and take the whole thing into account flag. I am demanding both sides calm down and negotiate. No one is saying russia should dictate ukraines foreign policy. Some of us were just hoping for some middle ground maybe.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

So what is that middle ground in your eyes? Russia gets Crimea and the areas it controlled before the invasion, and Ukraine gets to join NATO and later the EU if they wish? I think most Ukrainians would take that personally

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Some of the people in the east of Ukraine and crimea have strong ties with russia, I think that’s very fair to say, have you considered that actually some of those regions have been shelled on and off since 2014? For nearly ten years! Have you considered those people may want peace?
Just because you think something it doesn’t make it a fact.
As I said above, the US have talked about negotiations, musk had a sensible proposal.
I suppose you are saying we should fight them out of every inch regardless of the cost then?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

You still haven’t answered my question though have you? What are Russia going to offer Ukraine in order to finish the conflict? If Ukraine offers territory, would Russia allow them to join NATO and pivot towards the west? If not, how can Ukraine guarantee that Russia won’t simply carve a bit more off in the future once it’s replenished its armed forces? A treaty won’t cut it, as Russia has already proven it won’t abide by anything it has signed

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Exactly. I see no immediate solution, albeit that the recent Davos meeting tried to discuss peace plans.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

OK I understand. Please just get that there aren’t a lot of people calling for the escalation to stop at the moment. If you see my post above, even the un secretary General is concerned about escalation. All I’m trying to do, is make some arguments for that case. Sometimes badly, granted. I imagined we had diplomats to hash all that stuff out, was kind of what I had in mind. I feel like it’s too late to attempt writing an actual peace proposal myself. Another time. The us has talked about negotiations and such. The point is too, how long can we actually fund this? How much kit have we actually got to throw at it? How many lives? You know you can be as idealogical about it as you want but we have real world limits to contend with.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Your arguments are excellent!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Your arguments are excellent!

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Exactly. I see no immediate solution, albeit that the recent Davos meeting tried to discuss peace plans.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

OK I understand. Please just get that there aren’t a lot of people calling for the escalation to stop at the moment. If you see my post above, even the un secretary General is concerned about escalation. All I’m trying to do, is make some arguments for that case. Sometimes badly, granted. I imagined we had diplomats to hash all that stuff out, was kind of what I had in mind. I feel like it’s too late to attempt writing an actual peace proposal myself. Another time. The us has talked about negotiations and such. The point is too, how long can we actually fund this? How much kit have we actually got to throw at it? How many lives? You know you can be as idealogical about it as you want but we have real world limits to contend with.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I think there are not many pro-Russians left in Eastern Ukraine.. (They all left to escape the aerial bombardment, conscription and the war in general). Ask any author/journalist (and I’m not just talking Western journalists) who have been there.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

You still haven’t answered my question though have you? What are Russia going to offer Ukraine in order to finish the conflict? If Ukraine offers territory, would Russia allow them to join NATO and pivot towards the west? If not, how can Ukraine guarantee that Russia won’t simply carve a bit more off in the future once it’s replenished its armed forces? A treaty won’t cut it, as Russia has already proven it won’t abide by anything it has signed

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I think there are not many pro-Russians left in Eastern Ukraine.. (They all left to escape the aerial bombardment, conscription and the war in general). Ask any author/journalist (and I’m not just talking Western journalists) who have been there.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

An excellent suggestion BB.

Thus just like an 18th century war, everyone can claim victory and go home with some ‘prizes’.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Isn’t that what they wanted, to join the EU and nato? And then have a referendum in the Eastern regions russia has crimea, I think that was the idea of musks proposal. I know its not perfect but it’s not an easy situation.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Sun Tzu Charlie. ‘Golden Bridge’.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Isn’t that what they wanted, to join the EU and nato? And then have a referendum in the Eastern regions russia has crimea, I think that was the idea of musks proposal. I know its not perfect but it’s not an easy situation.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago

Sun Tzu Charlie. ‘Golden Bridge’.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

For the Russophiles “middle ground” is, obviously, to give the whole of Ukraine to Russia and turn the Baltics, Finland, Georgia and Armenia into puppet states à la Belarus

“peace”

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

Oh jesus. Yes that is exactly what I meant. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Is that anything like what musk actually proposed? I think not.
I think the Armenia Azerbaijan conflict is also a kind of proxy war between Russia and the US, Iran involved too if I remember correctly?

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That’s another conversation …

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Yes it seems pretty complex business, a lot going on all over the place, many other conflicts at the moment.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Samantha Sharp

Yes it seems pretty complex business, a lot going on all over the place, many other conflicts at the moment.

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

That’s another conversation …

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

Oh jesus. Yes that is exactly what I meant. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Is that anything like what musk actually proposed? I think not.
I think the Armenia Azerbaijan conflict is also a kind of proxy war between Russia and the US, Iran involved too if I remember correctly?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Some of the people in the east of Ukraine and crimea have strong ties with russia, I think that’s very fair to say, have you considered that actually some of those regions have been shelled on and off since 2014? For nearly ten years! Have you considered those people may want peace?
Just because you think something it doesn’t make it a fact.
As I said above, the US have talked about negotiations, musk had a sensible proposal.
I suppose you are saying we should fight them out of every inch regardless of the cost then?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

An excellent suggestion BB.

Thus just like an 18th century war, everyone can claim victory and go home with some ‘prizes’.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

For the Russophiles “middle ground” is, obviously, to give the whole of Ukraine to Russia and turn the Baltics, Finland, Georgia and Armenia into puppet states à la Belarus

“peace”

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

So what is that middle ground in your eyes? Russia gets Crimea and the areas it controlled before the invasion, and Ukraine gets to join NATO and later the EU if they wish? I think most Ukrainians would take that personally

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Status quo ante. (2022).

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It’s a tough call. What can Putin offer that means he exits with a ‘Golden Bridge’ (as Sun Tzu would posit)? He has to portray a win, somehow. With talk of Ukraine wanting to get Crimea back, and the recent agreement of the US to provide longer range missiles that mean Ukraine can target Crimea without moving their troops south of the Dnipro, what do you propose should be put on the table? This is a matter of pride, on both sides.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Here comes the virtuous to nuke us to bed.
I am waving the let’s negotiate and take the whole thing into account flag. I am demanding both sides calm down and negotiate. No one is saying russia should dictate ukraines foreign policy. Some of us were just hoping for some middle ground maybe.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Status quo ante. (2022).

Samantha Sharp
Samantha Sharp
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

It’s a tough call. What can Putin offer that means he exits with a ‘Golden Bridge’ (as Sun Tzu would posit)? He has to portray a win, somehow. With talk of Ukraine wanting to get Crimea back, and the recent agreement of the US to provide longer range missiles that mean Ukraine can target Crimea without moving their troops south of the Dnipro, what do you propose should be put on the table? This is a matter of pride, on both sides.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Read the post by Mustard Clementine above. The comment has saved me the trouble of answering since it mirrors my opinion pretty much exactly.

My other point, about the use of language, is possibly more important than you give it credit for. I’d call it an abuse of language, which hinders understanding, and is completely unnecessary. It’s sub-Twitter, which this forum really can do without as a place for civilised debate, which can be vehement without being execrable.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Murray
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Peace should always be considered. The problem lies in the fact that those calling for peace generally do so by demanding that Ukraine stops defending itself and allows Russia to dictate its foreign policy. I never hear what concessions Russia should give in order to stop the conflict

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

OK, you disagree, that’s fine. I’m not stopping you. Just drawing attention to points I thought were good. What’s wrong with mangled language? Who gets to judge its counter productive? I thought it was pretty tame…..

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Also do you disagree we should consider peace? Disagree it has been discussed in some parts of us government that there will, at some point perhaps have to be a negotiation? Do you disagree escalation could further disrupt supply chains?

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

We’ve listened, weighed all the pros and cons since the Russians invaded, and disagree. That’s what Comments are for, but at least some of the downvotes will be about Elliot’s use of (or should i say mangling of) language, which is a complete turn off and counterproductive.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

We could have peace tomorrow, all Putin has to do is move his troops back to Russia. Simples

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

“I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war”
I didn’t realise that Unherd had an editorial line.

Karen Fleming
Karen Fleming
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Neocon warmongers and stupid sheep. I was actually starting to think about and weigh your views until the aggressive name calling. You lose every time you do that.

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

What happens when Putin decides to de-nazify the Baltics, the Caucasus, the Stans & anywhere else he fancies? I suppose he gets them too?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

People down voting you should perhaps listen. If America and China go for Taiwan too:

In a nod to current tensions between China and Taiwan, Mr Wray also said during his speech that any forcible takeover of Taipei by Beijing “would represent one of the most horrific business disruptions the world has ever seen”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/101215972

This war is already wrecking supply chains, wrecking industry. Mr Bjorn is correct, if russia start cutting under sea cables or blowing up lng tankers we are in serious trouble. Modern supply chains are already a mess from covid. I would strongly advise heeding Mr Bjorns warning.
Peace deal, like musk suggested. We must stop escalating this.

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/02/21/uncovered-document-reveals-soviet-union-was-promised-no-nato-expansion-at-end-of-cold-war/

“The Russian invasion of Ukraine is inflicting untold suffering on the Ukrainian people, with profound global implications. The prospects for peace keep diminishing,” Guterres told the UN General Assembly.

“I fear the world is not sleepwalking into a wider war. I fear it is doing so with its eyes wide open,” he added

https://news.antiwar.com/2023/02/06/un-chief-fears-russia-ukraine-conflict-could-turn-into-wider-war/

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

I cannot believe Unherd is changing directions finally and against this EVIL war. Peace Now! NO More Weapons or money – STOP THE WAR, Peace Now.

Look – Russia does not have to use Nukes to destroy the world.

In this day of just in time shipments and production is very distant from where the consumption is – just disrupt that – the economic chaos will break every economy. Millions of Westerners starving, Power out, grids down, water flows messed up, trains and transport all snarled – and Billions globally starve. EASY.

Blow up undersea cables – the trade stops. Blow up some super tankers in the straits of Hormuz and Malakka. Hit some Gas Pipelines, maybe some air/fuel bombs over huge oilfields, hack some railroad headquarters – BILLIONS DIE. This is something which could happen –

Do you stupid sheep not realize we live in glass cities, and supply them with glass bottomed boats?

WWIII does not have to go NUK – 5th Generation Warfare. Hay – how about some Chemical/Biological Warfare? You cannot believe how far along that is. Dirty Bombs? Poisoning water supplies? I would not expect these, this is war crimes – but you never know, keep making things worse….

Come on you Neo-Con warmongers –

DO NOT CAUSE WWIII IT IS NOT SURVIVABLE IN THE MODERN Economy, Industry, agriculture, commodities, energy, transport, they would Crash..

Any of you know WWII?

Japan came to war because we cut their steel and oil supply. Britain was a few freighters from mass starvation and lack of weapons to fight Germany from U-Boats blockading the North Atlantic.We almost starved Japan to death by stopping shipping at the end. Modern supply chains are very fragile.

5th generation War is not the old wars. Stop poking a bear when you have it backed into a corner. This is not ‘war’ about Ukraine – we do not know what it really is about – but it needs to stop. Peace Now.