Barely a day had gone by from Ukraine’s successful request for German Leopard-2 tanks when the government in Kyiv called on Nato countries to yet again prove their solidarity by supplying it with US-made F-16 fighter jets. While military experts doubt these vehicles will significantly alter the situation on the battlefield, Kyiv touts them as important symbols of Western political resolve.
“War is a continuation of policy with other means,” wrote Clausewitz in 1832. A year into the Russo-Ukrainian War, what is that policy where Ukraine is concerned? Or America, Germany, and other Nato allies? Are Ukraine’s repeated calls for more support and the West’s accommodating response a case of leveraging “strategic publicity”, performative diplomacy, alliance solidarity, or something else entirely? After all, as much as the Ukrainians are fighting Russian forces and suffering massive casualties to protect the territorial integrity of the Ukrainian state, today Nato is openly engaged in a proxy war that risks spiralling into a catastrophic conflict between the West and Russia.
Although foreign policy realism can help sketch, even predict, the general contours of the war and explain policy in Moscow and Kyiv, this mainstream realist position, as represented by the likes of John Mearsheimer, provides an incomplete account of the behaviour of most Western allies, especially the United States. To understand Western decision-making and the peculiar inter-alliance dynamics of Nato, we need a more radical realism that takes seriously the non-physical, psychological, and “ontological dimensions” of security — encompassing a state or an organisation’s need for overcoming uncertainty by establishing orderly narratives and identities about its sense of “self”.
Still, “structural” realist accounts — centred on systemic anarchy, physical security, the balance of power, and political dimensions of strategy — can help explain aspects of Ukraine’s strategic decision-making. In a recent study for the Institute for Peace & Diplomacy, which I co-authored, we investigated the structural reasons that drive Ukraine’s strategic calculus. We suggested that, as a “regional balancer”, Ukraine took a massive risk in defying the Russian redlines about Kyiv explicitly rejecting Nato overtures and stopping any military integration with the West. This was a maximalist gambit that presupposed Western military support and risked actively provoking Moscow to its own strategic disadvantage.
In choosing the riskier, zero-sum strategy aimed at thwarting the historical and geopolitical sphere of influence of a neighbouring regional and civilisational power, Ukraine was perhaps imprudent — but by no means irrational. As we wrote:
“Practically all of America’s security alliances today are asymmetrical arrangements between the United States and regional balancers — a class of smaller, more peripheral regional states seeking to balance against the dominant middle powers in their respective regions. As a great power, America possesses an inherent capacity to encroach on other regional security complexes (RSCs). In this context, it is reasonable for regional balancers to attempt to coax and exploit American power in the service of their particular regional security interests.”
Setting such a lofty objective, however, effectively meant that Kyiv could never succeed without active Nato intervention shifting the balance of power in its favour. By virtue of its decision, Ukraine, along with its closest partners in Poland and the Baltic nations, became the classic “trojan ally” — smaller countries whose desire for regional clout against the extant middle power (Russia) is predicated on their ability to persuade an external great power and its global military network (here, the US and, by extension, Nato) to step in militarily on their behalf. As we noted in our study, “this comes at great risk to the regional balancer and at great cost to the external great power”. For ultimately, the arrangement depends on “the threat of the use of force and military intervention” by that external great power, without which the regional balancer would fail.
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SubscribeThere seems to be some interesting analysis mixed in with the mountains of psychobabble in this article, but it is hard to pin down exactly what it is saying. One thing obviously missing is any analysis of the psychology and motivations of Russia, that (unlike any country in the West) is accorded the respect of being treated merely as rational actor with legitimate interests. There are some hints, in quotes like:
“Ukraine, along with its closest partners in Poland and the Baltic nations,”
“Ukraine’s strategic ambition is to overcome Russia once and for all and break away from Moscow’s historical control.[…] it is crushing this larger Ukrainian ambition that motivates the Kremlin”
“Ukraine’s future as a sovereign state would now hinge on its ability to successfully engineer an escalation.”
“recognise[s] Russia’s status as a regional power with its own existential imperatives of strategic and ontological security,”
If Mr Moeni believes that the West should recognise Russias legitimate right to have full control over a no longer sovereign Ukraine (and the Baltic states? and Poland?) that is certainly a legitimate viewpoint. Only he owes us the courtesy of saying so explicitly, and discussing in some detail how the solution that he is recommending would actually look. Including why it is in the interest of Western Europe yet again to be confronted with an economically weak and militarily aggressive Russian neighbour with a recent history of getting what it wants by successful invasions. Moreover he should explain why now is the time when the West should publicly abandon their support for Ukraines aim of restoring the territories that Russia has grabbed. Why give a huge concession to Russia without getting anything in return, at a time when Russia has shown no intention of stopping with less than her maximum demands? A result that saw Ukraine independent, sovereign, viable, and safe from further Russian invasions would seem to be worth some territorial concessions and a guarantee of neutrality. It would certainly be better than a forever war in the probably forlorn hope of regaining Crimea. But the time to make that concession would be during the peace negotiations, in return for a matching Russian quid-pro-quo. Not now, when Russia would simply pocket the concession and continue fighting for more.
I agree, and one could argue the duty of the western alliance is to make sure this war comes to a conclusion as soon as possible…. And to avoid a long protracted stalemate we need to provide sufficient resources to Ukraine to overcome the invaders.
‘ (War) comes to a conclusion.’ Wise words, not really, what does it mean? Ukraine wants Russia out of its land. That includes Crimea. Russia ( Putin ) cannot accept that. So that’s why there’s a war. It will end when Ukraine runs out of fighters, people not F16’s or Migs. Russia won’t run out of people. All the West are doing is reducing the attrition on the Ukrainian people wrt the horrific Russian casualties. At some point the war will stop due to public opinion in Russia. Therefore the west/NATO/EU/US have to seriously up their military & Humanitarian supplies to the Ukraine. If they do the deaths on both sides will come to an end. Because Mums in Russia will protest. If NATO don’t there won’t be any Ukraine people left alive, so if that happens, you may as well let Russia take the land.
‘Russia cannot accept that’?
Is that the line you’d be taking if Russia invaded and took Alaska, and then came back for a few States along the western edge of the USA? That Russia had some ‘legitimate interest’ and ‘couldn’t accept’ being pushed out of lands it voluntarily handed over (the Alaska Purchase) nearly 150 years ago? What of the other countries bordering Russia that Russia once conquered but has, over more recent decades, left?
Of course there’s an ‘escalation’ in the military assistance needed to repel the Russian aggressor, when Russia pours massive quantities of basic arms and cannon-fodder into the land it’s trying to steal. But by increasing the extent of the territory, and by bombing civilian areas in other parts of Ukraine, it’s Russia that is constantly escalating the conflict.
You are not aware that:
Russia has 3x the populationRussia is a nuclear powerRussia knows China is using it as a prelude to their own ambitions.
Skipping all the rubbish about Alaska I would say that yes, Russia in fact is escalating, in a bit different way than you imply. I think hasty incorporation of the Ukrainian territories even before they were fully occupied was in fact an act of escalation. At that stage It prevented any possibility for Mr Zelenski to get to peace talks even if he wanted to. Obviously — what is in the Russian constitution stays there (or boom! – please expect a nuclear thingie if you try forcibly change that).
Simplistic, facile and frankly an idiotic response to an intelligent, well researched, knowledgeable and thoughtful piece.. What in heaven’s name made you think your contribution was worthwhile?
Probably the same thinking that made you think YOUR comment to her had any merit. It doesn’t. It’s just an insult.
Probably the same thinking that made you think YOUR comment to her had any merit. It doesn’t. It’s just an insult.
You are not aware that:
Russia has 3x the populationRussia is a nuclear powerRussia knows China is using it as a prelude to their own ambitions.
Skipping all the rubbish about Alaska I would say that yes, Russia in fact is escalating, in a bit different way than you imply. I think hasty incorporation of the Ukrainian territories even before they were fully occupied was in fact an act of escalation. At that stage It prevented any possibility for Mr Zelenski to get to peace talks even if he wanted to. Obviously — what is in the Russian constitution stays there (or boom! – please expect a nuclear thingie if you try forcibly change that).
Simplistic, facile and frankly an idiotic response to an intelligent, well researched, knowledgeable and thoughtful piece.. What in heaven’s name made you think your contribution was worthwhile?
If Nato does, there won’t be any Ukrainian fighters left, nor will Ukraine survive as a country. The West will walk away from the ruins just as it did in Iraq and Afghanistan and leave the “natives” to die quietly, or kill each other off in a civil war; out of MSM news. Incidentally, Crimea has been part of Russia since forever: hence it’s population is 88% Russian and its entire Southern fleet is there in Sevastapol.. Get real, please.
If there is a pause, Russia will rebuild and attack again at a time of their choosing… I don’t see what more Ukraine can do but attempt to deplete as much of the Russian invasion as it can
‘Russia cannot accept that’?
Is that the line you’d be taking if Russia invaded and took Alaska, and then came back for a few States along the western edge of the USA? That Russia had some ‘legitimate interest’ and ‘couldn’t accept’ being pushed out of lands it voluntarily handed over (the Alaska Purchase) nearly 150 years ago? What of the other countries bordering Russia that Russia once conquered but has, over more recent decades, left?
Of course there’s an ‘escalation’ in the military assistance needed to repel the Russian aggressor, when Russia pours massive quantities of basic arms and cannon-fodder into the land it’s trying to steal. But by increasing the extent of the territory, and by bombing civilian areas in other parts of Ukraine, it’s Russia that is constantly escalating the conflict.
If Nato does, there won’t be any Ukrainian fighters left, nor will Ukraine survive as a country. The West will walk away from the ruins just as it did in Iraq and Afghanistan and leave the “natives” to die quietly, or kill each other off in a civil war; out of MSM news. Incidentally, Crimea has been part of Russia since forever: hence it’s population is 88% Russian and its entire Southern fleet is there in Sevastapol.. Get real, please.
If there is a pause, Russia will rebuild and attack again at a time of their choosing… I don’t see what more Ukraine can do but attempt to deplete as much of the Russian invasion as it can
Your “solution” will have the opposite effect of your desired outcome!
‘ (War) comes to a conclusion.’ Wise words, not really, what does it mean? Ukraine wants Russia out of its land. That includes Crimea. Russia ( Putin ) cannot accept that. So that’s why there’s a war. It will end when Ukraine runs out of fighters, people not F16’s or Migs. Russia won’t run out of people. All the West are doing is reducing the attrition on the Ukrainian people wrt the horrific Russian casualties. At some point the war will stop due to public opinion in Russia. Therefore the west/NATO/EU/US have to seriously up their military & Humanitarian supplies to the Ukraine. If they do the deaths on both sides will come to an end. Because Mums in Russia will protest. If NATO don’t there won’t be any Ukraine people left alive, so if that happens, you may as well let Russia take the land.
Your “solution” will have the opposite effect of your desired outcome!
Yes such a silly question.
Oh, and did the allies escalate the similar war against the Nazis? Or did they appease the aggressor, as the writer wants?
They certainly appeased the Soviet Union, Finland, the Baltic States and Eastern Poland…not to think of the 1920s conquests of Ukraine, the South Caucasus and the five countries of Central Asia.
USA very wisely, appeased the Nazis and its allies, UNTIL, and that is a very big UNTIL, one of Nazis’ allies attacked USA.
The answer is no, the Allies did not escalate the war against Germany when the latter annexed what they regarded as theirs! The West stood idly by for the annexing of the Sedatenland and Austria. It was only when Hitler invaded Poland that the Allies “escalated” the war.. I guess the same applies here? ie when Russia invades a real Nato country it’ll be time to “escalate” things to WW3? In the meantime, if Nato stops escalating this war:
1. Fewer Ukrainians will die, needlessly.
2. Fewer Russians will die, needlessly.
3. Less Ukrainian infrastructure will be destroyed and so…
4. Ukraine might still survive as a nation.
5. Europe might recover economically?
6. Nato defence capabilities might remain intact – at the current rate Nato countries will run out of weapons and be sitting ducks.
7. China might not be the “last man standing” and take over the world.
It seems to me all 7 of the above are highly desirabe but what do I know.. maybe a nuclear holocaust is the best outcome after all.. It will probably be best for nature in any event and the blot on the landscape that humans are will be curtailed very nicely?
Last time the Allies stood by and hoped (desperately) for peace until it became clear that peace on acceptable terms was not to be had. Much the same as this time. If anything they have learned from last time and moved a bit faster.
4) Ukraine would be wholly owned by Russia, with major de-Ukrainisation campaigns to be expected. I would not call that ‘surviving as a nation’.
6) NATO defence capabilities would be stronger, but so would Russian offensive capabilities and starting position. Not to mention that both Russia and potential third countries would know from experience that wars of conquest pay, and that NATO would fold if threatened. Russia might even conclude that NATO would not really start WWIII if Russia got a good jump on an invasion of Lithuania. That might prove a mistake, of course, but they have already shown they are willing to gamble.
The Ukrainians get to decide if and when they’ve had enough, not the West, and certainly not appeasement minded simpletons who care little for history.
War is great Harry for those, like you who have no experience of it!
War is great Harry for those, like you who have no experience of it!
It’s silly to suggest “less Ukrainians will die” when they will keep fighting for survival with what they have against a well armed foe even if the West gives up. Your analysis is worthless because you fail to accept that what is going on is essentially a genocide, albeit more of a cultural one than elimination of all the people (although that too since Russians are keeping lists and there are guidelines based on the national identity and allegiance of who must die, be exiled or “converted”, such as the children). And culture is what makes people, what defines their values and governance. Ukrainians are not Russians and they don’t owe shit to Russia — if anything, Russia owes their existence to Kyiv if we are so into history as Putin seems to be.
Last time the Allies stood by and hoped (desperately) for peace until it became clear that peace on acceptable terms was not to be had. Much the same as this time. If anything they have learned from last time and moved a bit faster.
4) Ukraine would be wholly owned by Russia, with major de-Ukrainisation campaigns to be expected. I would not call that ‘surviving as a nation’.
6) NATO defence capabilities would be stronger, but so would Russian offensive capabilities and starting position. Not to mention that both Russia and potential third countries would know from experience that wars of conquest pay, and that NATO would fold if threatened. Russia might even conclude that NATO would not really start WWIII if Russia got a good jump on an invasion of Lithuania. That might prove a mistake, of course, but they have already shown they are willing to gamble.
The Ukrainians get to decide if and when they’ve had enough, not the West, and certainly not appeasement minded simpletons who care little for history.
It’s silly to suggest “less Ukrainians will die” when they will keep fighting for survival with what they have against a well armed foe even if the West gives up. Your analysis is worthless because you fail to accept that what is going on is essentially a genocide, albeit more of a cultural one than elimination of all the people (although that too since Russians are keeping lists and there are guidelines based on the national identity and allegiance of who must die, be exiled or “converted”, such as the children). And culture is what makes people, what defines their values and governance. Ukrainians are not Russians and they don’t owe shit to Russia — if anything, Russia owes their existence to Kyiv if we are so into history as Putin seems to be.
They certainly appeased the Soviet Union, Finland, the Baltic States and Eastern Poland…not to think of the 1920s conquests of Ukraine, the South Caucasus and the five countries of Central Asia.
USA very wisely, appeased the Nazis and its allies, UNTIL, and that is a very big UNTIL, one of Nazis’ allies attacked USA.
The answer is no, the Allies did not escalate the war against Germany when the latter annexed what they regarded as theirs! The West stood idly by for the annexing of the Sedatenland and Austria. It was only when Hitler invaded Poland that the Allies “escalated” the war.. I guess the same applies here? ie when Russia invades a real Nato country it’ll be time to “escalate” things to WW3? In the meantime, if Nato stops escalating this war:
1. Fewer Ukrainians will die, needlessly.
2. Fewer Russians will die, needlessly.
3. Less Ukrainian infrastructure will be destroyed and so…
4. Ukraine might still survive as a nation.
5. Europe might recover economically?
6. Nato defence capabilities might remain intact – at the current rate Nato countries will run out of weapons and be sitting ducks.
7. China might not be the “last man standing” and take over the world.
It seems to me all 7 of the above are highly desirabe but what do I know.. maybe a nuclear holocaust is the best outcome after all.. It will probably be best for nature in any event and the blot on the landscape that humans are will be curtailed very nicely?
I think it’s very clear what it is saying.:
Fantasising about imposing a Carthaginian peace on a nuclear armed regime is recklessly suicidal.
I do wish it wasn’t so, but like it or not, it is.
You are doing the same thing. Instead of pontificating about what we should not do, say what you think we should do. And what consequences you expect from it. In some detail. If you think that we should give Russia what they started this war for and hand over Ukraine to be a Russian-controlled puppet state, you can at the very least admit openly to what you are proposing.
I’ll tell you what the US and NATO should do. Butt out of a local regional war that is none of their business and has no impact on their security. And while we’re at it reduce NATO to the countries that belonged to it prior to the fall of the Soviet Union. Nobody is going to go to war directly for the Baltic States. I doubt whether many people in the UK could even point where the baltic states are on the map, and for sure virtually nobody in the US could.
The fact of the matter is, that while Putin launched an offensive in Feb 2022, this proxy war has been going on since 2014 when the US engineered the Maidan coup. Further, Western Ukraine had been constantly bombing the Donbas region since 2014. The truth is that Russia regards the situation as a red line, as would the UK if Scotland seceded and allied itself with say China who installed military bases on Scottish soil. Same goes for how the US reacted to the Cuban missile crisis in 1963 – as an existential threat. Sometimes it pays to actually listen to what countries are saying rather than demonizing them. And the demonization of Russia in the US and specifically by the Democrats is beyond the pale with :”Russia, Russia, Russia”, Russian Collusion…” etc…… that basically destroyed the previous US presidency. And for what – a bold faced lie by a sore looser.
This must be written by an American. The British do know where the Baltic states are. Many Americans even don’t Know where Europe is. And what’s that got to do with anything defeats me. Russia is a danger to Europe right now. History shows making peace with a dictatorship is not the way to go.
You should not equate Russia/Putin with Hitler/Nazi Germany. It’s not helpful. The Russians have not threatened to do anything in Europe. Their concern is Ukraine and they have clearly stated it for many years. Poke the bear once too often as the US has done, and the current situation is the result.
As for the Brits being able to point to the Baltic state on a map, perhaps a few might be able to, but the majority not. Not everybody is as highly educated and credentialed as you are. Just remember, what happens in the US is transferred in short order to the UK, and that includes a complete lack of basic geographical knowledge.
Better stick to writing waltzes.
What on earth are you on about? For starters Ukraine is in Europe. Secondly Russia west of the Urals is in Europe so, therefore, obviously the Russians have already done something in Europe. Actually, showing that Putin’s Russia is acting in a similar way to Hitler’s Germany is helpful.
Depends what you mean exactly by “threatening to do anything to Europe”. He’s on record in threatening Europe in many ways. Do keep up.
Has Putin threatened to invade any other European country – the answer would be absolutely not. QED. The only country that is truly threatening and has acted like a self-righteous bully consistently for the last 60 years, with disastrous results, the latest being in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, is the US.
Putin and his mouthpieces have also said that they are not about to invade Ukraine. Then after the invasion they said they are not going to occupy any land. So yeah, what they say truly has any significance 😀
Putin and his mouthpieces have also said that they are not about to invade Ukraine. Then after the invasion they said they are not going to occupy any land. So yeah, what they say truly has any significance 😀
Has Putin threatened to invade any other European country – the answer would be absolutely not. QED. The only country that is truly threatening and has acted like a self-righteous bully consistently for the last 60 years, with disastrous results, the latest being in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, is the US.
You must speak for yourself about ignorance.
The fact that you can assert that UK people have “a complete lack of basic geographical knowledge” merely shows that you’d be better off keeping quiet when you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Unless you have some actual facts to back up such a sweeping generalisation.
Well I suggest you go to your local comprehensive and find out how many children can place the baltic states on a map (without any help). i suspect you will be surprised at what you find.
There is a lot of cooperation between Baltic states and the UK as well as shared membership of many organisations. Not to mention the large diaspora of Baltic people in the UK — important enough for some of the government material to be released in Lithuanian alongside English and a few other select languages. Chances are, many Brits know someone from the Baltics and being one of them I can say with confidence I never encountered anyone who wasn’t aware where Latvia is and can usually name the capital and quite probably been there themselves.
There is a lot of cooperation between Baltic states and the UK as well as shared membership of many organisations. Not to mention the large diaspora of Baltic people in the UK — important enough for some of the government material to be released in Lithuanian alongside English and a few other select languages. Chances are, many Brits know someone from the Baltics and being one of them I can say with confidence I never encountered anyone who wasn’t aware where Latvia is and can usually name the capital and quite probably been there themselves.
Well I suggest you go to your local comprehensive and find out how many children can place the baltic states on a map (without any help). i suspect you will be surprised at what you find.
It is not helplful to deny the obvious similar imperialism of Putin/Russia and Hitler/Nazi Germany.
Hoping to start rebuilding its recently lost empire, Russia’s only ‘concern’ with Ukraine is that it is slipping further from a Moscow’s orbit and, worse, becoming uninvadeable.
This invasion has nothing whatever to do with Russia’s alleged security concerns : Ukraine offered to remain neutral if Russia would call off the invasion, but Russia declined. It is everything to do with rampaging imperialism.
The bear is poking the world, not vice-versa.
Better stick to writing waltzes.
What on earth are you on about? For starters Ukraine is in Europe. Secondly Russia west of the Urals is in Europe so, therefore, obviously the Russians have already done something in Europe. Actually, showing that Putin’s Russia is acting in a similar way to Hitler’s Germany is helpful.
Depends what you mean exactly by “threatening to do anything to Europe”. He’s on record in threatening Europe in many ways. Do keep up.
You must speak for yourself about ignorance.
The fact that you can assert that UK people have “a complete lack of basic geographical knowledge” merely shows that you’d be better off keeping quiet when you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Unless you have some actual facts to back up such a sweeping generalisation.
It is not helplful to deny the obvious similar imperialism of Putin/Russia and Hitler/Nazi Germany.
Hoping to start rebuilding its recently lost empire, Russia’s only ‘concern’ with Ukraine is that it is slipping further from a Moscow’s orbit and, worse, becoming uninvadeable.
This invasion has nothing whatever to do with Russia’s alleged security concerns : Ukraine offered to remain neutral if Russia would call off the invasion, but Russia declined. It is everything to do with rampaging imperialism.
The bear is poking the world, not vice-versa.
You should not equate Russia/Putin with Hitler/Nazi Germany. It’s not helpful. The Russians have not threatened to do anything in Europe. Their concern is Ukraine and they have clearly stated it for many years. Poke the bear once too often as the US has done, and the current situation is the result.
As for the Brits being able to point to the Baltic state on a map, perhaps a few might be able to, but the majority not. Not everybody is as highly educated and credentialed as you are. Just remember, what happens in the US is transferred in short order to the UK, and that includes a complete lack of basic geographical knowledge.
OK, you, at least, are clear about what you are proposing. That deserves respect even though I disagree.
Basically what you are proposing would restore the Russian empire to what it was in the 1980’s, minus East Germany. The countries expelled from NATO would have been explicitly delivered to the mercies of Russia, and would make some kind of accommodation with their new master out of necessity. Russian invasions would not even be necessary, though they would be pretty painless for Russia if desired. There would again be Russian-controlled tanks on the border of Germany and Greece. This would break the EU, since by my count nine member states would be under Russian dominance, each with a formal EU veto that Russia could have them invoke. And American allies, from Western Europe and across the world would start making backup alliances with local powers since their alliance with the US was clearly not reliable. It remains to be seen how Germany and the rest of Europe would organise their security if that happened, but it is clearly ridiculous to say that this would have no impact on West European security. Whatever you might think I do not consider this an attractive scenario.
For the rest, the stuff about the Maidan ‘coup’ and the Cuban missile crisis echoes too many Russian propaganda points. One of the foreign policy realists linked in this article compared it much more reasonably to Nicaragua, admitting at least that both were popular uprisings (even if both saw a covert military response by the superpower). If you want to compare to Cuba, the relevant comparison is the Cuban revolution, not the missile crisis. No NATO weapons, let alone troops, were appearing in Ukraine prior to the recent invasion.
As for the Russian collusion, it is established fact that the FSB hacked Democratic email accounts and leaked the proceeds in order to favour Trump. It was never proved that Trump collaborated or colluded beforehand (as opposed to just enjoying the result), and quite likely he is actually innocent on that particular point. Still, at least an accusation of colluding with a foreign power to win the presidential election is worth making a scandal over – unlike, say, having consensual oral s-x with a willing young woman.
Who is the ‘sore loser’, BTW? I am unsure whether you mean Trump or Biden.
You seem to be interested in actually engaging those of us who think that the war is about more than just Ukraine, so I’ll make an effort to lay out a scenario that I’d consider realistic – i.e. one in which no one gets everything they say they want.
I’ll try and forestall any nonsensical accusations of “Russian talking/propaganda points” by saying the Russians are certainly the aggressors here and I don’t really think there are any great justifications for this wat from a “international norms/laws” standpoint.
Having said that, I think it’s disingenuous of anyone to talk about wars as if they can be good or bad, since wars are primarily about national interests and laws & norms tend to be disregarded when it comes to that.
Iraq is the best example of this to my mind, since it basically set a precedent of “we can invade a sovereign country with basically no justification”, but honestly every other US war since the 90s has had justifications that are no better than the one offered by the Russians here (terrorists and ethnic/autocratic repression vs Nazis and ethnic repression) and so I’d like you to understand that my scepticism towards American support (as opposed to Ukrainian defence) is not a result of some love towards the Russians (I have a very low opinion of Putin and have, overall, had mostly negative experiences with Russian people), but rather that this war will not benefit the Ukrainians in the short or long term.
So now to answer your question: assuming the war wouldn’t bring any major breakthroughs in the next year or two (which both sides are still banking on at the moment), I figure The Russians might keep the Russophone regions (the Donbas) and Crimea (I think referenda wouldn’t be accepted by anyone at this point), while returning Kherson and Zaporozhye – as this would be at least consistent with the stated interests of the Russian state in Ukraine. However, I unfortunately don’t think the Russians will settle for that (the Ukrainians neither of course, but they have less of a choice if their benefactors change their minds), especially not after “annexing” the stated Oblasts and due to the fact that the latter 2 are vital to Crimea (due to the power plant & water sources). Therefore I agree with you that there is still a ways to go before anyone considers settling things.
With regards to Ukraine, I think Zelenskyy already said what will probably happen (regardless of the amount of territory taken by the Russians) – Israel 2.0 – a quasi vassal status which will bring in American funding and guarantee their security.
The question I’d like to ask of you and anyone who thinks the support should be maintained or increased however is: at what point is the fighting not worth it anymore?
I personally think the Ukrainian people (not the state) would’ve been better off in a Russian-aligned state than having to endure mass destruction, a war with no end in sight, a fifth of the country annexed and who knows how many dead and fled.
So is this war worth becoming an American protectorate? Because let’s be honest here, it isn’t about Ukrainian freedom either way.
That sounds like a fairly reasonable evaluation. The main thing I am missing is some estimate of what Russia would settle for, and what that would mean for Ukraine. My guess is that Russia will accept nothing less than de facto control of Ukraine (unless forced). Which at this point (not necessarily a few years ago) will likely also mean systematic cultural de-Ukrainisation and Russification, to forestall uppity behaviour in the future. Israel 2.0 will require that Ukraine is large, independent and viable enough to maintain its own army and make its own alliances – which I think is way more than Russia will accept. If Russia conquers Odessa, for instance, rump Ukraine will be either a Russian vassal state, or an expensive basket case with little viable economy relying on western charity. Without sufficient Ukrainian strength an American security guarantee would require NATO membership and NATO troops in Ukraine – which is yet another Russian red line.
Is this war worth it for the Ukrainians? Maybe debatable, but it seems that they have made their own choice. It is not for us to decide what they should want. We should not trick them into fighting under false pretences (as we may or may not have done in Syria?) but as long as we are being honest about what we are offering we should be free to follow our inclinations – and interests – in the matter.
As for freedom, I think you have a strange idea of it. Most European countries are to various degrees under American protection (as is Israel) which does, of course, have a cost. Yet the inhabitants (myself included) would consider themselves free, and would very much prefer the status quo to trying to stand up to Putin, Xi, or Erdogan alone and without allies. Freedom means being free to make your own choices. It does not mean being so strong that you can ignore everybody else.
“Freedom means being free to make your own choices. It does not mean being so strong that you can ignore everybody else.”
It’s a shame Ukraine post-Maidan, didn’t listen to your wise advice.
Mearsheimer and others have been warning Ukraine about how it’s been using it’s “freedom” for a long time now.
Mearsheimer is consistent only in that he gets everything wrong all the time.
Did he get Ukraine getting wrecked wrong ?
He got one thing right: He said at the time that it was risky for Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons, and wrong of other countreis to encourage it to do so. To remain safe from Russian attackes Ukraine would need to keep its nukes. Good call, that.
But in the same quote, he also said that “Ukraine cannot defend itself against a nuclear-armed Russia.” Seems to me he got that quite wrong, along with so much else.
But in the same quote, he also said that “Ukraine cannot defend itself against a nuclear-armed Russia.” Seems to me he got that quite wrong, along with so much else.
Wow what a genius. what a prophet. He — and possibly only he — understood that when a country is invaded by a superpower, it might get “wrecked.” Funny though, The SU got “wrecked” after the German invasion in 1941 and yet continued to fight back until it seized the initiative.
He got one thing right: He said at the time that it was risky for Ukraine to give up its nuclear weapons, and wrong of other countreis to encourage it to do so. To remain safe from Russian attackes Ukraine would need to keep its nukes. Good call, that.
Wow what a genius. what a prophet. He — and possibly only he — understood that when a country is invaded by a superpower, it might get “wrecked.” Funny though, The SU got “wrecked” after the German invasion in 1941 and yet continued to fight back until it seized the initiative.
Did he get Ukraine getting wrecked wrong ?
He said that? Ukrainians have known this from 1991 on, which is why NATO was their hope to avoid war while maintaining their sovereignty. Even many years ago going there, at some point I would hear that there is going to be war with Russia, I have heard it from people ranging from youngsters to old babushkas — and I have been mostly spending time and working in the Eastern part of the country. It’s not that Russia is invading because of Ukraine wanting to join NATO; it is Ukraine wanting to join NATO because they knew there’d be a war otherwise. Well, they didn’t get there in time.. Baltic states did, thankfully.
Mearsheimer is consistent only in that he gets everything wrong all the time.
He said that? Ukrainians have known this from 1991 on, which is why NATO was their hope to avoid war while maintaining their sovereignty. Even many years ago going there, at some point I would hear that there is going to be war with Russia, I have heard it from people ranging from youngsters to old babushkas — and I have been mostly spending time and working in the Eastern part of the country. It’s not that Russia is invading because of Ukraine wanting to join NATO; it is Ukraine wanting to join NATO because they knew there’d be a war otherwise. Well, they didn’t get there in time.. Baltic states did, thankfully.
These are fair points you make with regards to Ukraine, but we seem to fundamentally disagree about the amount of agency Ukraine actually has (had). While I do not necessarily believe that Zelenskyy is just a puppet (he didn’t flee when the Americans told him to, which is to his credit), I honestly don’t think he’ll be the one deciding when the war stops (unless he surrenders, which I don’t expect anytime soon) and I think the amount of influence he has on any negotiations are strongly dependent on how well the Ukrainians do (and this is assuming that Zelenskyy actually makes the decisions within his government, but that’s another matter).
However, once the Americans are satisfied (or think they’ve gotten all there is to be had) they can basically force any concessions on Ukraine (or just bail) and I suspect they will, unless in the case of total Ukrainian victory.
With regards to freedom – I don’t see a reason why Europe has to be subservient to the Americans at all. We don’t HAVE to be a part of their empire (hell maybe that’d make the EU more palatable to sceptics like me). I realize someone will complain about Brussel Eurocrats at this point, but honestly, there’s at least some miniscule chance of changing the EU as a European (as opposed to the US) and I find that preferable to having the old continents foreign policy being decided in Washington. Additionally, I think the scope for change could increase significantly if our choices weren’t conditional on being acceptable to America and it’s corporations.
Unfortunately, I think we (all of Europe) have already been culturally colonized by the US (especially the ruling class) and I do think it’s kind of funny that you worry about de-Ukrainification, when we are all being americanized into oblivion.
“Freedom means being free to make your own choices. It does not mean being so strong that you can ignore everybody else.”
It’s a shame Ukraine post-Maidan, didn’t listen to your wise advice.
Mearsheimer and others have been warning Ukraine about how it’s been using it’s “freedom” for a long time now.
These are fair points you make with regards to Ukraine, but we seem to fundamentally disagree about the amount of agency Ukraine actually has (had). While I do not necessarily believe that Zelenskyy is just a puppet (he didn’t flee when the Americans told him to, which is to his credit), I honestly don’t think he’ll be the one deciding when the war stops (unless he surrenders, which I don’t expect anytime soon) and I think the amount of influence he has on any negotiations are strongly dependent on how well the Ukrainians do (and this is assuming that Zelenskyy actually makes the decisions within his government, but that’s another matter).
However, once the Americans are satisfied (or think they’ve gotten all there is to be had) they can basically force any concessions on Ukraine (or just bail) and I suspect they will, unless in the case of total Ukrainian victory.
With regards to freedom – I don’t see a reason why Europe has to be subservient to the Americans at all. We don’t HAVE to be a part of their empire (hell maybe that’d make the EU more palatable to sceptics like me). I realize someone will complain about Brussel Eurocrats at this point, but honestly, there’s at least some miniscule chance of changing the EU as a European (as opposed to the US) and I find that preferable to having the old continents foreign policy being decided in Washington. Additionally, I think the scope for change could increase significantly if our choices weren’t conditional on being acceptable to America and it’s corporations.
Unfortunately, I think we (all of Europe) have already been culturally colonized by the US (especially the ruling class) and I do think it’s kind of funny that you worry about de-Ukrainification, when we are all being americanized into oblivion.
You simply are unaware of history.
Dutch resistance to Felipe II cost them far more in the short term than Ukraine will ever pay, yet they prevailed after many years.
The Russophones voted overwhelmingly for Zelensky, and are the main supports of the war right now.
This is a war very much like Vietnamese resistance to the USA, or Afghan resistance to the Soviets.
Leaving Ukraine in the lurch is now politically impossible for any Western leader. Heard what Scholz and Macron said recently?
This is just how nationalism works.
That a dying Russian empire stumbled into it isn’t our fault.
Ahh Mr Logan, again with the propaganda. The Russophones voted overwhelmingly for Zelenskyy because he is Russophone himself and because he ran on a platform of peace with Russia and anti-corruption.
What Ukraine got was a (unsurprising) corruption scandal when it was revealed that Zelenskyy was hiding his wealth offshore, after discreetly transferring it to a friend (pandora papers – widely reported then but now forgotten) and now a war with Russia where he is putting all his chips on continued American support – which recent history (as you like to say) tells us is more than a bit fickle (and never selfless).
I didn’t dislike Zelenskyy initially (though I do more so by the day, especially since that open invitation to Goldman Sachs and Blackrock to plunder Ukraine, as well as the WW3 cheerleading obviously), but he is not what you make him out to be. Which is fitting I suppose, with his previous career in mind and the fact that he primarily has to perform for people who have so much Hollywood garbage stuffed into their brains (and are so far removed from the realities of war), that the solution to every problem seems to be “just kill the bad guy and it’ll all work out” – to which I point you to the open air slave markets of Libya, the sectarianism of Iraq and the utter Ruins of Syria.
American support is a poisoned chalice 9/10 times and even bucking the trend doesn’t guarantee anything close to what you’d would consider a good outcome.
Anyone who actually cares about Ukrainians (and the rest of the world outside america) should want the war to end as soon as possible, but I’m unconvinced that western “Ukraine supporters” are actually interested in that or understand the consequences of their warmongering. In any case, I’d just like to be left out of your “glorious and righteous war for democracy and freedom”, but alas, everyone is dragged along because the Rand Corporation had a plan to mess up the Russians Vietnam-style.
Russian hegemony can muster a few skeletons, too. Chechnya, maybe, or the ruins of Grozny? Is your obvious distaste for the US making you just a little bit unbalanced?
Have you seen Grozny these days ?
Or Mariupol, for that matter ?
oh you mean places Putin has destroyed? And that’s supposed to be a good reason to surrender to him? Quite the logic fail.
Have you seen Mariupol or do you base your assumptions on Potemkin village inspired propaganda videos?
oh you mean places Putin has destroyed? And that’s supposed to be a good reason to surrender to him? Quite the logic fail.
Have you seen Mariupol or do you base your assumptions on Potemkin village inspired propaganda videos?
Of course it can muster skeletons. I’ve never said the Russians are standing on any kind of moral high ground. But if the “choice” (not as if we have one) were between a regional conflict on the edge of Europe and a global one with a vastly increased range of (negative) outcomes (nuclear war seeming like the worst), I don’t find it hard to choose.
I know this is a unpopular fact, but this is much more of an existential conflict for the Russians than the Americans (for whom it is a powerplay).
And yes, it’s even more existential for the Ukrainians, but I don’t think it needed to be – Minsk & the previous Israeli prime minister might have provided off-ramps, but “someone” got in the way (Nordstream 2 mystery Vol 2 to my mind).
You mention promises and false pretences in another comment – we don’t know what the US/UK offered them, but it seems likely to me it made them more willing to fight. Now this strikes me as fair enough from the Ukrainians standpoint, but I see no reason to think the Americans will continue to stand behind them from recent examples (elections aren’t too far off either and republicans aren’t as united in this as democrats).
Ukraine isn’t Israel yet, and that’s basically the best case scenario, but even so, the price to become northern Israel is insanely high when the war might have been averted in the first place with not dissimilar results.
Have you seen Grozny these days ?
Or Mariupol, for that matter ?
Of course it can muster skeletons. I’ve never said the Russians are standing on any kind of moral high ground. But if the “choice” (not as if we have one) were between a regional conflict on the edge of Europe and a global one with a vastly increased range of (negative) outcomes (nuclear war seeming like the worst), I don’t find it hard to choose.
I know this is a unpopular fact, but this is much more of an existential conflict for the Russians than the Americans (for whom it is a powerplay).
And yes, it’s even more existential for the Ukrainians, but I don’t think it needed to be – Minsk & the previous Israeli prime minister might have provided off-ramps, but “someone” got in the way (Nordstream 2 mystery Vol 2 to my mind).
You mention promises and false pretences in another comment – we don’t know what the US/UK offered them, but it seems likely to me it made them more willing to fight. Now this strikes me as fair enough from the Ukrainians standpoint, but I see no reason to think the Americans will continue to stand behind them from recent examples (elections aren’t too far off either and republicans aren’t as united in this as democrats).
Ukraine isn’t Israel yet, and that’s basically the best case scenario, but even so, the price to become northern Israel is insanely high when the war might have been averted in the first place with not dissimilar results.
If you have a blog, please sign me up!
Haha I don’t but thank you!
Haha I don’t but thank you!
The use of the term “Russophobe” is quite meaningless and misapplied when it comes to Zelenskyy and Ukraine. Of course there is fear and hatred toward the Russian state and Putin in particular, not without cause. Nor is the hatred and fear unidirectional.
Would it be fitting to call Jim Crow era American blacks white-supremacist-phobic or KKK-averse?
I said RussophoNe – it means Russian-speaker (or in this case, first language).
I said RussophoNe – it means Russian-speaker (or in this case, first language).
unlike you, I’ll leave it to the Ukrainians to decide when is the right time to stop fighting Russian aggression. And it’s quite rich for you to talk about Western “warmongering” without even mentioning the warmonger-in-chief, i.e. the person responsible for the war in the first place, Putin. Now that’s a REAL warmonger.
You need to go to Ukraine and speak to real people of all ages and walks of life. I assure you your cynical conformist mind will be overcome and maybe you will recognise freedom and independence you take for granted is worth fighting for.
My wife is Crimean, and a huge Putin fan.
Does she count ?
My wife is Crimean, and a huge Putin fan.
Does she count ?
Russian hegemony can muster a few skeletons, too. Chechnya, maybe, or the ruins of Grozny? Is your obvious distaste for the US making you just a little bit unbalanced?
If you have a blog, please sign me up!
The use of the term “Russophobe” is quite meaningless and misapplied when it comes to Zelenskyy and Ukraine. Of course there is fear and hatred toward the Russian state and Putin in particular, not without cause. Nor is the hatred and fear unidirectional.
Would it be fitting to call Jim Crow era American blacks white-supremacist-phobic or KKK-averse?
unlike you, I’ll leave it to the Ukrainians to decide when is the right time to stop fighting Russian aggression. And it’s quite rich for you to talk about Western “warmongering” without even mentioning the warmonger-in-chief, i.e. the person responsible for the war in the first place, Putin. Now that’s a REAL warmonger.
You need to go to Ukraine and speak to real people of all ages and walks of life. I assure you your cynical conformist mind will be overcome and maybe you will recognise freedom and independence you take for granted is worth fighting for.
Though not without bloody cost and atrocities on all sides, some wars are good compared to any workable alternative.
Was it not good to thwart you-know-who in WWII, defeating an attempted globo-fascist takeover by the Axis powers? An amoral calculation based on national self interest alone?
I don’t think so, and the righteous aspect of the cause shouldn’t be cynically dismissed (either in the 1939-45 period or now), even if the cynical or jaundiced view detects some portion of the truth that is missed by those whose lenses are tinted in a different way.
I understand that it is better not to play the “H card” in these discussions, but it is a universal point of reference that has significant connection to Putin in the areas of tyranny and megalomania.
Ahh Mr Logan, again with the propaganda. The Russophones voted overwhelmingly for Zelenskyy because he is Russophone himself and because he ran on a platform of peace with Russia and anti-corruption.
What Ukraine got was a (unsurprising) corruption scandal when it was revealed that Zelenskyy was hiding his wealth offshore, after discreetly transferring it to a friend (pandora papers – widely reported then but now forgotten) and now a war with Russia where he is putting all his chips on continued American support – which recent history (as you like to say) tells us is more than a bit fickle (and never selfless).
I didn’t dislike Zelenskyy initially (though I do more so by the day, especially since that open invitation to Goldman Sachs and Blackrock to plunder Ukraine, as well as the WW3 cheerleading obviously), but he is not what you make him out to be. Which is fitting I suppose, with his previous career in mind and the fact that he primarily has to perform for people who have so much Hollywood garbage stuffed into their brains (and are so far removed from the realities of war), that the solution to every problem seems to be “just kill the bad guy and it’ll all work out” – to which I point you to the open air slave markets of Libya, the sectarianism of Iraq and the utter Ruins of Syria.
American support is a poisoned chalice 9/10 times and even bucking the trend doesn’t guarantee anything close to what you’d would consider a good outcome.
Anyone who actually cares about Ukrainians (and the rest of the world outside america) should want the war to end as soon as possible, but I’m unconvinced that western “Ukraine supporters” are actually interested in that or understand the consequences of their warmongering. In any case, I’d just like to be left out of your “glorious and righteous war for democracy and freedom”, but alas, everyone is dragged along because the Rand Corporation had a plan to mess up the Russians Vietnam-style.
Though not without bloody cost and atrocities on all sides, some wars are good compared to any workable alternative.
Was it not good to thwart you-know-who in WWII, defeating an attempted globo-fascist takeover by the Axis powers? An amoral calculation based on national self interest alone?
I don’t think so, and the righteous aspect of the cause shouldn’t be cynically dismissed (either in the 1939-45 period or now), even if the cynical or jaundiced view detects some portion of the truth that is missed by those whose lenses are tinted in a different way.
I understand that it is better not to play the “H card” in these discussions, but it is a universal point of reference that has significant connection to Putin in the areas of tyranny and megalomania.
My answer disappeared. Hopefully it will come back.
Bravo. A fantastic comment.
Everyone wittering on about “Ukrainian independence” is just showing they already chose a side.
Perhaps you’ll choose one after a winner is declared. Or would that still be too soon or simplistic?
Are you an impartial spectator who just wants to see a “good game”?
Not at all, friend.
I’m enthusiastically cheerleading for Vlad to give the neocons a bloody nose so the rest of the world can finally live in peace.
And not just because I happen to be married to a Crimean.
A genuine question – no sub text. Is your other half a Russian Crimean, or a Ukranian Crimean?
Rabidly Russian. Like pretty much all Crimeans.
Rabidly Russian. Like pretty much all Crimeans.
Vlad the Terrible. I appreciate your directness and openness about which side you’ve chosen.
From my perspective (as a Canada-born American who once had a long-term Russian-Jewish girlfriend and has many neighbors from both Ukraine and Russia) your enthusiasm doesn’t seem open-eyed. You expect a post-war world in which a chastened US and victorious Russia, with a newly emboldened Putin the First, leave the rest of the world in peace. I guess we’ll see if your “team” wins.
“You expect a post-war world in which a chastened US and victorious Russia, with a newly emboldened Putin the First, leave the rest of the world in peace.”
This is exactly what I expect, friend. Let’s see.
“You expect a post-war world in which a chastened US and victorious Russia, with a newly emboldened Putin the First, leave the rest of the world in peace.”
This is exactly what I expect, friend. Let’s see.
A genuine question – no sub text. Is your other half a Russian Crimean, or a Ukranian Crimean?
Vlad the Terrible. I appreciate your directness and openness about which side you’ve chosen.
From my perspective (as a Canada-born American who once had a long-term Russian-Jewish girlfriend and has many neighbors from both Ukraine and Russia) your enthusiasm doesn’t seem open-eyed. You expect a post-war world in which a chastened US and victorious Russia, with a newly emboldened Putin the First, leave the rest of the world in peace. I guess we’ll see if your “team” wins.
Not at all, friend.
I’m enthusiastically cheerleading for Vlad to give the neocons a bloody nose so the rest of the world can finally live in peace.
And not just because I happen to be married to a Crimean.
Just like you, except that you have clearly chosen the wrong side.
“Clearly” ?
The only people supporting this war are the Professional Managerial Classes of the Anglosphere plus the usual CEE antisemitic white power dregs.
Oh, and the stockholders of the military industrial complex.
What a holy alliance.
“Clearly” ?
The only people supporting this war are the Professional Managerial Classes of the Anglosphere plus the usual CEE antisemitic white power dregs.
Oh, and the stockholders of the military industrial complex.
What a holy alliance.
Perhaps you’ll choose one after a winner is declared. Or would that still be too soon or simplistic?
Are you an impartial spectator who just wants to see a “good game”?
Just like you, except that you have clearly chosen the wrong side.
And the Poles would surely have been better off surrendering the corridor. But that was for the Poles to decide, just as it’s now up to the Ukrainians as to whether to continue to fight or surrender. I think they’ve made their choice abundantly clear.
That sounds like a fairly reasonable evaluation. The main thing I am missing is some estimate of what Russia would settle for, and what that would mean for Ukraine. My guess is that Russia will accept nothing less than de facto control of Ukraine (unless forced). Which at this point (not necessarily a few years ago) will likely also mean systematic cultural de-Ukrainisation and Russification, to forestall uppity behaviour in the future. Israel 2.0 will require that Ukraine is large, independent and viable enough to maintain its own army and make its own alliances – which I think is way more than Russia will accept. If Russia conquers Odessa, for instance, rump Ukraine will be either a Russian vassal state, or an expensive basket case with little viable economy relying on western charity. Without sufficient Ukrainian strength an American security guarantee would require NATO membership and NATO troops in Ukraine – which is yet another Russian red line.
Is this war worth it for the Ukrainians? Maybe debatable, but it seems that they have made their own choice. It is not for us to decide what they should want. We should not trick them into fighting under false pretences (as we may or may not have done in Syria?) but as long as we are being honest about what we are offering we should be free to follow our inclinations – and interests – in the matter.
As for freedom, I think you have a strange idea of it. Most European countries are to various degrees under American protection (as is Israel) which does, of course, have a cost. Yet the inhabitants (myself included) would consider themselves free, and would very much prefer the status quo to trying to stand up to Putin, Xi, or Erdogan alone and without allies. Freedom means being free to make your own choices. It does not mean being so strong that you can ignore everybody else.
You simply are unaware of history.
Dutch resistance to Felipe II cost them far more in the short term than Ukraine will ever pay, yet they prevailed after many years.
The Russophones voted overwhelmingly for Zelensky, and are the main supports of the war right now.
This is a war very much like Vietnamese resistance to the USA, or Afghan resistance to the Soviets.
Leaving Ukraine in the lurch is now politically impossible for any Western leader. Heard what Scholz and Macron said recently?
This is just how nationalism works.
That a dying Russian empire stumbled into it isn’t our fault.
My answer disappeared. Hopefully it will come back.
Bravo. A fantastic comment.
Everyone wittering on about “Ukrainian independence” is just showing they already chose a side.
And the Poles would surely have been better off surrendering the corridor. But that was for the Poles to decide, just as it’s now up to the Ukrainians as to whether to continue to fight or surrender. I think they’ve made their choice abundantly clear.
Russia Gate and the Russia Collusion Hoax was started by Hilary Clinton’s campaign, just for the record.
And no it is absolutely not established that the FSB hacked the Democratic email accounts. The FBI were not allowed to examine the DNC computers so all we have is the say so of CrowStrike who were employed by the DNC. That’s not evidence, that’s total BS.
As for the Maidan revolution it is not clear that this was a popular uprising. And the US in the form of Victoria Nuland have freely admitted that this was engineered by the US, and like all US interference has led to unintended consequences. Incidentally, the same goes for the blowing up of the Nordstream pipeline where both Biden and Nuland have basically admitted in public that they were responsible, although the mainstream press have tried to hide this.
And you have absolutely no evidence for any bad Russian intensions with regard to places like Hungary, Slovenia etc etc…. Russia is not the Soviet Union intent on world revolution. I’m afraid you’re still living in the Cold War era, and opinions/views such as yours and those of the US/UK Government are not helpful to the current situation.
And by the way you should learn to think critically rather than just reiterate the accepted narrative handed down from on high whether with regard to this topic or Covid (where your views have proven wrong every single time).
Fine, so what is your estimate of what would happen once NATO withdrew protection from the ex-Warsaw-Pact countries? It is not the case that I have to prove all my claims whereas you are right by default until proved otherwise.
Or, for that matter, if not the FSB, who made those emails public?
The demonstrations were very obviously popular uprisings, not engineered, and hence no such ‘admissions’ from Nuland was made. And futhermore Ukraine’s affairs are none of Russia’s business, just as Russia’s affairs are none of Uktaine’s.
Russia plainly is intent on rebuilding its recently lost empire, which is what this war is all ábout.
And by the way you should learn to think critically rather than just reiterate the accepted narrative handed down from the Kremlin.
Putin has publicly stated his desire to recreate the Russian empire.
Fine, so what is your estimate of what would happen once NATO withdrew protection from the ex-Warsaw-Pact countries? It is not the case that I have to prove all my claims whereas you are right by default until proved otherwise.
Or, for that matter, if not the FSB, who made those emails public?
The demonstrations were very obviously popular uprisings, not engineered, and hence no such ‘admissions’ from Nuland was made. And futhermore Ukraine’s affairs are none of Russia’s business, just as Russia’s affairs are none of Uktaine’s.
Russia plainly is intent on rebuilding its recently lost empire, which is what this war is all ábout.
And by the way you should learn to think critically rather than just reiterate the accepted narrative handed down from the Kremlin.
Putin has publicly stated his desire to recreate the Russian empire.
He meant Hillary.
You seem to be interested in actually engaging those of us who think that the war is about more than just Ukraine, so I’ll make an effort to lay out a scenario that I’d consider realistic – i.e. one in which no one gets everything they say they want.
I’ll try and forestall any nonsensical accusations of “Russian talking/propaganda points” by saying the Russians are certainly the aggressors here and I don’t really think there are any great justifications for this wat from a “international norms/laws” standpoint.
Having said that, I think it’s disingenuous of anyone to talk about wars as if they can be good or bad, since wars are primarily about national interests and laws & norms tend to be disregarded when it comes to that.
Iraq is the best example of this to my mind, since it basically set a precedent of “we can invade a sovereign country with basically no justification”, but honestly every other US war since the 90s has had justifications that are no better than the one offered by the Russians here (terrorists and ethnic/autocratic repression vs Nazis and ethnic repression) and so I’d like you to understand that my scepticism towards American support (as opposed to Ukrainian defence) is not a result of some love towards the Russians (I have a very low opinion of Putin and have, overall, had mostly negative experiences with Russian people), but rather that this war will not benefit the Ukrainians in the short or long term.
So now to answer your question: assuming the war wouldn’t bring any major breakthroughs in the next year or two (which both sides are still banking on at the moment), I figure The Russians might keep the Russophone regions (the Donbas) and Crimea (I think referenda wouldn’t be accepted by anyone at this point), while returning Kherson and Zaporozhye – as this would be at least consistent with the stated interests of the Russian state in Ukraine. However, I unfortunately don’t think the Russians will settle for that (the Ukrainians neither of course, but they have less of a choice if their benefactors change their minds), especially not after “annexing” the stated Oblasts and due to the fact that the latter 2 are vital to Crimea (due to the power plant & water sources). Therefore I agree with you that there is still a ways to go before anyone considers settling things.
With regards to Ukraine, I think Zelenskyy already said what will probably happen (regardless of the amount of territory taken by the Russians) – Israel 2.0 – a quasi vassal status which will bring in American funding and guarantee their security.
The question I’d like to ask of you and anyone who thinks the support should be maintained or increased however is: at what point is the fighting not worth it anymore?
I personally think the Ukrainian people (not the state) would’ve been better off in a Russian-aligned state than having to endure mass destruction, a war with no end in sight, a fifth of the country annexed and who knows how many dead and fled.
So is this war worth becoming an American protectorate? Because let’s be honest here, it isn’t about Ukrainian freedom either way.
Russia Gate and the Russia Collusion Hoax was started by Hilary Clinton’s campaign, just for the record.
And no it is absolutely not established that the FSB hacked the Democratic email accounts. The FBI were not allowed to examine the DNC computers so all we have is the say so of CrowStrike who were employed by the DNC. That’s not evidence, that’s total BS.
As for the Maidan revolution it is not clear that this was a popular uprising. And the US in the form of Victoria Nuland have freely admitted that this was engineered by the US, and like all US interference has led to unintended consequences. Incidentally, the same goes for the blowing up of the Nordstream pipeline where both Biden and Nuland have basically admitted in public that they were responsible, although the mainstream press have tried to hide this.
And you have absolutely no evidence for any bad Russian intensions with regard to places like Hungary, Slovenia etc etc…. Russia is not the Soviet Union intent on world revolution. I’m afraid you’re still living in the Cold War era, and opinions/views such as yours and those of the US/UK Government are not helpful to the current situation.
And by the way you should learn to think critically rather than just reiterate the accepted narrative handed down from on high whether with regard to this topic or Covid (where your views have proven wrong every single time).
He meant Hillary.
No, the fact of the matter is that Russia lauched a covert imperialist invasion in 2014, shortly after seizing Crimea. That is what caused the casualties in Donbas. It steadily escalated it up to an overt one in 2022. T
There was no coup. The Russian puppet having sent in Russian assasins in to tame the demonstations against his policy U-turn to suck up to Russia, he then fled and was impeached for it.
Russia nor anyone else has any right to impose red lines against sovereign states, So not at all like Scotland and the UK.
And this war has absolutely nothing to do with an existential threat to Russia, as evidenced by Russia’s refusal to call off the invasion in return for Ukranian neutrality. And everything to do with classic Russian imperialism, attempting to rebuild the recently lost Soviet empire. Barbaric 18/19th century imperialism on a 21st century stage.
So voting for a pro Russian candidate is always illegitimate? Seems to me you mistake legitimacy for western partisanship, but I guess someone’s got a taste for MSM Kool Aid.
Also, how is surrounding a country with offensive weaponry not considered an existential threat? The hypocrisy on display is mind blowing.
Russia could have avoided it all by simply abiding by the will of the Rada, when Yanukovich fled to avoid prosecution for his crimes. Putin would have had far more leverage over Ukraine.
At every stage he has hastened Russia’s destruction.
Now it’s far too late.
I don’t disagree that the war was a mistake, but it disturbs me that people like you are all about some kind of righteous fury towards and destruction of Russia (this strikes me as something of a theme in your posts).
If you applied this standard equally for all countries that have done illegal invasions I’d have expected you to be telling us of the necessity/inevitability of sinking Britain and/or nuking America (among many, many others).
This is not (yet) a total war between NATO and the East (Russia, Iran, China, etc) but honestly, where do you think the ramping up of weapons manufacturing, war hysteria/propaganda and testing (“donating”) of said weapons in Ukraine are leading?
The chinese “spy balloons” (as they’re STILL being called) were just weather balloons, yet it’s still in the news cycle as I write. Partly to distract from Nordstream 2, partly to gin up some more war fervor for the coming conflict with the Chinese.
I’ll go out on a limb here and say that people here are more skeptical than most towards governments (of any kind) and the stories (lies) they tell, so why is it that so many of you are just willing to accept that this is some kind of virtuous display of solidarity? The Russians certainly won’t be coming for any NATO members any time soon, so don’t tell me it’s for security, the Americans will try to bleed them dry for a while yet I expect.
The US has spent 100$+ Billion on this war (with needlessly printed money and other peoples taxes), yet cant spare 1% of that for health care or homelessness (Britains got plenty of problems too) and you want even more of this? Do you not wish your politicians took care of domestic politics for a change? Or are you grabbing onto this offered distraction because you despair that they never will?
How do you know that is a weather balloon? Do you think official Chinese statements are that much more reliable than official US ones? Or do you have your own sources?
And how do you know that the Russians ‘certainly’ won’t be coming for any NATO members any time soon? My guess is that they would absolutely be coming for the Baltic states to start with, and for further countries next – if they were sufficiently convinced that between a quick military intervention and their nuclear deterrent they could get away with it. Part of the point of helping out in this war is to keep them from that point.
Granted, I never thought the idea of NATO membership for Ukraine or Georgia was sensible or realistic. But then between Crimea and the Donbas ‘insurgency’ Russia had pretty much put paid to that already.
How do you know that is a weather balloon? Do you think official Chinese statements are that much more reliable than official US ones?
On the weather balloon:
The intelligence community’s current assessment is that these three objects were most likely balloons tied to private companies, recreation, or research institutions studying weather or conducting other scientific research,”
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/illinois-hobby-club-believes-pentagon-shot-down-their-12-pico-balloon
Most hilarious story ever. $400 000!!! Sidewinder missiles, four of them, for some weather balloons. (One missed. No reports on where the stray heat seeking missile went) That might for a few hours have been actual aliens. All to try and hush up Seymour hersh and his nord stream story. Ufos laughed off the front pages in a matter of hours….. Brilliant work America.
Sorry and all, but that was for balloons 2-4. Balloon 1 is described as at least an order of magnitude bigger than known weather balloons, with ‘jetliner-sized payolad’ of several thousand pounds weight. If that is ‘just a weather balloon’, how do you know?
Well, maybe it was, but three were not, neither were they ‘hexagonal shape’ UFOs with crazy abilities.
Can’t edit, balloon one – this one that came down in the sea?? The recovery operation for that one is even more hilarious than the sidewinder for the weather balloons, a whole assault craft unit but it wasn’t enough, they needed a special crane. Not sure whether they actually recovered that one yet:
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/chinese-balloons-large-reconnaissance-section-located-still-hasnt-been-retrieved
Can’t edit, balloon one – this one that came down in the sea?? The recovery operation for that one is even more hilarious than the sidewinder for the weather balloons, a whole assault craft unit but it wasn’t enough, they needed a special crane. Not sure whether they actually recovered that one yet:
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/chinese-balloons-large-reconnaissance-section-located-still-hasnt-been-retrieved
And what exactly do you think the Chinese could have gleaned from these balloons that they couldn’t find using Goggle Earth which has an accuracy of better than 1 ft.
Well, maybe it was, but three were not, neither were they ‘hexagonal shape’ UFOs with crazy abilities.
And what exactly do you think the Chinese could have gleaned from these balloons that they couldn’t find using Goggle Earth which has an accuracy of better than 1 ft.
Interesting that you mention UFOs. They too are typically explained away as “weather balloons.” But hey, the “Illinois Hobby Club” says so, so it’s gotta be true.
Sorry and all, but that was for balloons 2-4. Balloon 1 is described as at least an order of magnitude bigger than known weather balloons, with ‘jetliner-sized payolad’ of several thousand pounds weight. If that is ‘just a weather balloon’, how do you know?
Interesting that you mention UFOs. They too are typically explained away as “weather balloons.” But hey, the “Illinois Hobby Club” says so, so it’s gotta be true.
As Mr. Emery said, your intelligence services admitted that they are and the MSM was allowed to broadcast this – but still under the deliberately misleading label of “spy balloon”.
CNN & CBS reported this days ago.
With regards to NATO; first, the Russians have expended plenty of money, manpower and equipment on Ukraine, in addition to significant sanctions on materials/semiconductors and the frankly illegal seizure of their foreign reserves (among other things) – they are currently not in a situation where they can just overrun eastern Europe and the Baltics tomorrow (maybe in a decade, but Ukraine has certainly shown that such time can be put to good use) with some imagined hordes of soldiers, so please don’t be facetious when I’m trying to engage you in a respectful manner. Secondly, this would ACTUALLY constitute an attack on NATO (which you’d think has already happened from how some people comment about Ukraine) and a full show of force from the West would actually be justified for once. NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance and not an arms-leaser/testing ground for American war machines.
And yes, I’m aware what NATO is doing (I wrote as much), but then let’s not pretend you’re doing the Ukrainians any favors, because that’s not actually going to help them long term, even if they “won” (whatever that means, I’m sceptical of Mr. Logans apocalyptic fantasies). You could just as well have sent 100$ Billion to the Baltics and Poland to send a message, but that’s not what happened is it? Instead the US is raking it in the energy sector and Europe is weakened, frightened and even more dependant on the US, while Africa starves.
It’s disappointing that you ignored all the direct questions I asked of you, since I was genuinely interested to hear what you had to say on those issues, but I must conclude that you are primarily interested in warmongering & propagandizing, as opposed to a discussion on the merits of future courses of action.
A couple of my answers disappeared – hopefully they will reappear, but meanwhile better avoid long posts. Not sure which direct questions you mean, exactly. Just quickly:
At what point is the fighting not worth it anymore? When it is clear to to someonethat the cost outweighs what you could hope to gain, I guess. Ukraine seems to think that it is still worth trying to fight to avoid surrendering to Russia and the deN–ification/deUkrainisation that would follow. And Russia must think it is worth it too, or they would have proposed a peace deal instead of annexing those four oblasts.
Is it worth it for Ukraine just to become an American protectorate? Absolutely yes – much better than becoming a Russian one (though not at *any* cost, I guess).
I am not trying to be facetious, and will answer further questions, moderators permitting.
Fair enough, cheers.
We’ll see if your replies show up by tomorrow.
As I’ve said earlier, I agree that the war will likely drag on since morale is still relatively high on both sides and the next offensive/counteroffensive cycle is about to start, but I genuinely believe this will most likely end up like Syria, just with the roles reversed (i.e. America supporting the regime instead of Russia) and I think no one really wants that.
If you mean that the end will be a viable Ukrainian state relying on the US for support, I hope you are right. Unlike Syria, that would be a pretty good result for the Ukrainians – being governed by Zelensky should be a lot better than being under Assad. But unfortunately I am afraid Russia could still win, or at least succeed in destroying Ukraine pretty thoroughly.
I mean, that’s the best outcome for the Ukrainians now I suppose (though unlike you I’m sceptical of how great that would be, but maybe we’ll see) and I don’t have any particular desire to see the Russians overrun them, because it would likely be pretty dire for them after all the bloodshed (up to now).
Most of the points I made were in relation to my belief that there didn’t have to be a war in the first place and that it is being sold to people (by the anglophone MSM) as something completely different from what it really is (like Iraq, but in a way that’s palatable to democrats). Additionally, I think the war is basically just another pre-baked crisis (planned/proposed quite meticulously by the Rand Corporation in 2019), which will be used to make everybody who isn’t part of the elite worse off.
Besides my droning about the possibility of WW3, theres also the (likely) possibility of weapon spillover (remember when it was reported last spring that just a third of the weapons sent to Ukraine were accounted for?) and unforseen knock-on effects elsewhere (hunger in Africa certainly won’t bring about democracy, etc.).
So in a nutshell, I believe the Ukrainians and Russians fighting this war (regardless of the reasons behind it) makes basically everyone worse off, except the US and China.
I mean, that’s the best outcome for the Ukrainians now I suppose (though unlike you I’m sceptical of how great that would be, but maybe we’ll see) and I don’t have any particular desire to see the Russians overrun them, because it would likely be pretty dire for them after all the bloodshed (up to now).
Most of the points I made were in relation to my belief that there didn’t have to be a war in the first place and that it is being sold to people (by the anglophone MSM) as something completely different from what it really is (like Iraq, but in a way that’s palatable to democrats). Additionally, I think the war is basically just another pre-baked crisis (planned/proposed quite meticulously by the Rand Corporation in 2019), which will be used to make everybody who isn’t part of the elite worse off.
Besides my droning about the possibility of WW3, theres also the (likely) possibility of weapon spillover (remember when it was reported last spring that just a third of the weapons sent to Ukraine were accounted for?) and unforseen knock-on effects elsewhere (hunger in Africa certainly won’t bring about democracy, etc.).
So in a nutshell, I believe the Ukrainians and Russians fighting this war (regardless of the reasons behind it) makes basically everyone worse off, except the US and China.
If you mean that the end will be a viable Ukrainian state relying on the US for support, I hope you are right. Unlike Syria, that would be a pretty good result for the Ukrainians – being governed by Zelensky should be a lot better than being under Assad. But unfortunately I am afraid Russia could still win, or at least succeed in destroying Ukraine pretty thoroughly.
Rasmus, I think posts sometimes get removed not because they are a problem but rather because the subsequent responses are and the entire thread gets deleted. You and I would imagine this could be handled better in 2023 … after all it’s hardly technical rocket science.
Yes, replies to a removed or delayed comment will “get disappeared” or slowed down too.
But I think some of the moderation rules are inconsistent or still being formed, perhaps because this website has recently expanded its membership and geographical reach, thus changing the editorial game, so to speak.
I like that we are at least allowed to speculate or share complaints about practices and policies that remain, for now, somewhat inscrutable.
Yes, replies to a removed or delayed comment will “get disappeared” or slowed down too.
But I think some of the moderation rules are inconsistent or still being formed, perhaps because this website has recently expanded its membership and geographical reach, thus changing the editorial game, so to speak.
I like that we are at least allowed to speculate or share complaints about practices and policies that remain, for now, somewhat inscrutable.
Fair enough, cheers.
We’ll see if your replies show up by tomorrow.
As I’ve said earlier, I agree that the war will likely drag on since morale is still relatively high on both sides and the next offensive/counteroffensive cycle is about to start, but I genuinely believe this will most likely end up like Syria, just with the roles reversed (i.e. America supporting the regime instead of Russia) and I think no one really wants that.
Rasmus, I think posts sometimes get removed not because they are a problem but rather because the subsequent responses are and the entire thread gets deleted. You and I would imagine this could be handled better in 2023 … after all it’s hardly technical rocket science.
Couldn’t agree with you more.
A couple of my answers disappeared – hopefully they will reappear, but meanwhile better avoid long posts. Not sure which direct questions you mean, exactly. Just quickly:
At what point is the fighting not worth it anymore? When it is clear to to someonethat the cost outweighs what you could hope to gain, I guess. Ukraine seems to think that it is still worth trying to fight to avoid surrendering to Russia and the deN–ification/deUkrainisation that would follow. And Russia must think it is worth it too, or they would have proposed a peace deal instead of annexing those four oblasts.
Is it worth it for Ukraine just to become an American protectorate? Absolutely yes – much better than becoming a Russian one (though not at *any* cost, I guess).
I am not trying to be facetious, and will answer further questions, moderators permitting.
Couldn’t agree with you more.
How do you know that is a weather balloon? Do you think official Chinese statements are that much more reliable than official US ones?
On the weather balloon:
The intelligence community’s current assessment is that these three objects were most likely balloons tied to private companies, recreation, or research institutions studying weather or conducting other scientific research,”
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/illinois-hobby-club-believes-pentagon-shot-down-their-12-pico-balloon
Most hilarious story ever. $400 000!!! Sidewinder missiles, four of them, for some weather balloons. (One missed. No reports on where the stray heat seeking missile went) That might for a few hours have been actual aliens. All to try and hush up Seymour hersh and his nord stream story. Ufos laughed off the front pages in a matter of hours….. Brilliant work America.
As Mr. Emery said, your intelligence services admitted that they are and the MSM was allowed to broadcast this – but still under the deliberately misleading label of “spy balloon”.
CNN & CBS reported this days ago.
With regards to NATO; first, the Russians have expended plenty of money, manpower and equipment on Ukraine, in addition to significant sanctions on materials/semiconductors and the frankly illegal seizure of their foreign reserves (among other things) – they are currently not in a situation where they can just overrun eastern Europe and the Baltics tomorrow (maybe in a decade, but Ukraine has certainly shown that such time can be put to good use) with some imagined hordes of soldiers, so please don’t be facetious when I’m trying to engage you in a respectful manner. Secondly, this would ACTUALLY constitute an attack on NATO (which you’d think has already happened from how some people comment about Ukraine) and a full show of force from the West would actually be justified for once. NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance and not an arms-leaser/testing ground for American war machines.
And yes, I’m aware what NATO is doing (I wrote as much), but then let’s not pretend you’re doing the Ukrainians any favors, because that’s not actually going to help them long term, even if they “won” (whatever that means, I’m sceptical of Mr. Logans apocalyptic fantasies). You could just as well have sent 100$ Billion to the Baltics and Poland to send a message, but that’s not what happened is it? Instead the US is raking it in the energy sector and Europe is weakened, frightened and even more dependant on the US, while Africa starves.
It’s disappointing that you ignored all the direct questions I asked of you, since I was genuinely interested to hear what you had to say on those issues, but I must conclude that you are primarily interested in warmongering & propagandizing, as opposed to a discussion on the merits of future courses of action.
Noone is trying to destroy Russia. The boot is very much on the other foot.
You’re the man! (sorry person) Great posts btw.
Thank you Carl!
Thank you Carl!
How do you know that is a weather balloon? Do you think official Chinese statements are that much more reliable than official US ones? Or do you have your own sources?
And how do you know that the Russians ‘certainly’ won’t be coming for any NATO members any time soon? My guess is that they would absolutely be coming for the Baltic states to start with, and for further countries next – if they were sufficiently convinced that between a quick military intervention and their nuclear deterrent they could get away with it. Part of the point of helping out in this war is to keep them from that point.
Granted, I never thought the idea of NATO membership for Ukraine or Georgia was sensible or realistic. But then between Crimea and the Donbas ‘insurgency’ Russia had pretty much put paid to that already.
Noone is trying to destroy Russia. The boot is very much on the other foot.
You’re the man! (sorry person) Great posts btw.
I don’t disagree that the war was a mistake, but it disturbs me that people like you are all about some kind of righteous fury towards and destruction of Russia (this strikes me as something of a theme in your posts).
If you applied this standard equally for all countries that have done illegal invasions I’d have expected you to be telling us of the necessity/inevitability of sinking Britain and/or nuking America (among many, many others).
This is not (yet) a total war between NATO and the East (Russia, Iran, China, etc) but honestly, where do you think the ramping up of weapons manufacturing, war hysteria/propaganda and testing (“donating”) of said weapons in Ukraine are leading?
The chinese “spy balloons” (as they’re STILL being called) were just weather balloons, yet it’s still in the news cycle as I write. Partly to distract from Nordstream 2, partly to gin up some more war fervor for the coming conflict with the Chinese.
I’ll go out on a limb here and say that people here are more skeptical than most towards governments (of any kind) and the stories (lies) they tell, so why is it that so many of you are just willing to accept that this is some kind of virtuous display of solidarity? The Russians certainly won’t be coming for any NATO members any time soon, so don’t tell me it’s for security, the Americans will try to bleed them dry for a while yet I expect.
The US has spent 100$+ Billion on this war (with needlessly printed money and other peoples taxes), yet cant spare 1% of that for health care or homelessness (Britains got plenty of problems too) and you want even more of this? Do you not wish your politicians took care of domestic politics for a change? Or are you grabbing onto this offered distraction because you despair that they never will?
In wartime, colluding the with the invader is proscribed. No big surprise.
Russia is not ‘surrounded’ by any means. Your ignorant claim of hypocricy is what is mind blowing.
It would be pretty hard to “surround” Russia. But as for who threatens who, it ought to be pretty clear it’s the other way around.
Russia could have avoided it all by simply abiding by the will of the Rada, when Yanukovich fled to avoid prosecution for his crimes. Putin would have had far more leverage over Ukraine.
At every stage he has hastened Russia’s destruction.
Now it’s far too late.
In wartime, colluding the with the invader is proscribed. No big surprise.
Russia is not ‘surrounded’ by any means. Your ignorant claim of hypocricy is what is mind blowing.
It would be pretty hard to “surround” Russia. But as for who threatens who, it ought to be pretty clear it’s the other way around.
Actually very much like Scotland and the UK. The Ukraine was part of Russia ever since Catherine The Great. Crimea was Russian until gifted to Ukraine in 1955 by the then Ukrainian President of the Soviet Union. Odessa is a Russian City founded by Catherine the Great. The majority there don’t even speak Ukrainian. And Kiev is the birth place of Russia – Kiev Rus.
So perhaps a little bit less righteousness and a little bit more pragmatism is in order.
Sorry, again, very poor knowledge of history and nationalism.
Kyivan Rus has nothing to do with Muscovite Rossiya. Indeed , during its 1200 year history, Ukraine was only been under Muscovite control for little over two centuries.
Now the most ardent Russisn-haters, (and Zelensky Supporters)are the Russophones.
Putin destroyed any Russian support with the 2014 war. He lost the chance of brute conquest in the first few weeks of Feb 2022.
And idiotic losers just don’t get any prizes, sadly
My wife is Crimean. She doesn’t know a soul in Crimea who wants the peninsula to return to Ukraine.
My wife is Crimean. She doesn’t know a soul in Crimea who wants the peninsula to return to Ukraine.
You are really not very good at this are you? Khrushchev was Russian and born in Russia – what on earth is the “Ukrainian President of the Soviet Union” anyway? . Ukraine was independent (if only for a short time) after WW1. So very much NOT like Scotland/UK!
Yes Odessa was founded by Catherine the Great ( a German by birth ironically). However, they recently tore down her statue (the mayor is Russian speaking ) but they hate Russia now. Zelensky is a native Russian speaker indeed his grandfather fought for the Soviet army.
The fact is Ukraine was extensively Russified during the 1960s.
As for the Donbas, yes many are Russophiles but many (who have survived) maybe less since they have been used as “cannon fodder” by Putin.
Maybe check out Wikipedia as to Khruschchev’s ethnic origins (https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/khrushchev-becomes-soviet-premier)
Maybe check out Wikipedia as to Khruschchev’s ethnic origins (https://www.history.com/.amp/this-day-in-history/khrushchev-becomes-soviet-premier)
Sorry, again, very poor knowledge of history and nationalism.
Kyivan Rus has nothing to do with Muscovite Rossiya. Indeed , during its 1200 year history, Ukraine was only been under Muscovite control for little over two centuries.
Now the most ardent Russisn-haters, (and Zelensky Supporters)are the Russophones.
Putin destroyed any Russian support with the 2014 war. He lost the chance of brute conquest in the first few weeks of Feb 2022.
And idiotic losers just don’t get any prizes, sadly
You are really not very good at this are you? Khrushchev was Russian and born in Russia – what on earth is the “Ukrainian President of the Soviet Union” anyway? . Ukraine was independent (if only for a short time) after WW1. So very much NOT like Scotland/UK!
Yes Odessa was founded by Catherine the Great ( a German by birth ironically). However, they recently tore down her statue (the mayor is Russian speaking ) but they hate Russia now. Zelensky is a native Russian speaker indeed his grandfather fought for the Soviet army.
The fact is Ukraine was extensively Russified during the 1960s.
As for the Donbas, yes many are Russophiles but many (who have survived) maybe less since they have been used as “cannon fodder” by Putin.
Luckily Poroshenko saw off the covert imperialist invasion by withholding old age pensions and medical supplies from the remnant anti coup provinces. That really hit the vast Russian soldiery who promptly turned tail and ran back across the border. Oh and he sent shells and tanks. Zelensky was boasting about the shelling practice his army had between 2014 and Putin’s invasion.
I think the Russian’s have good reason to fear the seemingly insatiable appetite that America has for interfering in other countries.
We see it happen in relation to Northern Ireland and God knows what would happen if it started to look that the UK was about to go off the reservation.
There was a story about Gadhafi complaining to the US that having them to open an embassy in Libya it had become a focal point and organizer of resistance to his regime
American interference in other countries is miniscule compared to Russia’s intimidation, domination and/or direct control of its neighbours for 2 centuries before the 1990s. So rather than Russia having good reason to fear America (which is rather silly), all the countries adjacent to or close to Russia have very good and historical reasons to fear the Bear.
You call invading them, staging air strikes, organizing coups and assassinations and subverting elections is miniscule
You call invading them, staging air strikes, organizing coups and assassinations and subverting elections is miniscule
American interference in other countries is miniscule compared to Russia’s intimidation, domination and/or direct control of its neighbours for 2 centuries before the 1990s. So rather than Russia having good reason to fear America (which is rather silly), all the countries adjacent to or close to Russia have very good and historical reasons to fear the Bear.
So voting for a pro Russian candidate is always illegitimate? Seems to me you mistake legitimacy for western partisanship, but I guess someone’s got a taste for MSM Kool Aid.
Also, how is surrounding a country with offensive weaponry not considered an existential threat? The hypocrisy on display is mind blowing.
Actually very much like Scotland and the UK. The Ukraine was part of Russia ever since Catherine The Great. Crimea was Russian until gifted to Ukraine in 1955 by the then Ukrainian President of the Soviet Union. Odessa is a Russian City founded by Catherine the Great. The majority there don’t even speak Ukrainian. And Kiev is the birth place of Russia – Kiev Rus.
So perhaps a little bit less righteousness and a little bit more pragmatism is in order.
Luckily Poroshenko saw off the covert imperialist invasion by withholding old age pensions and medical supplies from the remnant anti coup provinces. That really hit the vast Russian soldiery who promptly turned tail and ran back across the border. Oh and he sent shells and tanks. Zelensky was boasting about the shelling practice his army had between 2014 and Putin’s invasion.
I think the Russian’s have good reason to fear the seemingly insatiable appetite that America has for interfering in other countries.
We see it happen in relation to Northern Ireland and God knows what would happen if it started to look that the UK was about to go off the reservation.
There was a story about Gadhafi complaining to the US that having them to open an embassy in Libya it had become a focal point and organizer of resistance to his regime
Eminently sensible comment. Sadly, the author’s piece is a thicket of jiggery pokey and mumbo jumbo. What’s worse is that the comments here again confirms (for me) the futility of so much discussion — an endless arguing over opinions, interpretations, biases, half truths, media disinformation, what if’s and so on.
Let’s cut to the chase, shall we? American perfidy and misbehavior are the greatest threat in the world today. The revival of the Cold War is not enough it seems; now we must pivot to the East and create two arenas of conflict.
Cut to the chase again: Our heartless invasions and wars have severley brutalized our culture. Our Congress has been hijacked by big money. The gap between what we say our values are and how we behave is cringe worthy.
Right now, the best we Americans can hope for is that NATO and America both get a stiff bang to the nose for their perfidy. It’s time to stand down.
So you would prefer a world governed by the faithfulness, upright behaviour and gentle dealing with others of Xi and Putin?
I didn’t say that. If you read what I said, you would know better what I intend.
When you say that “American perfidy and misbehavior are the greatest threat in the world today” the conclusion sort of follows.
This is an established fact. Look at the record of our invasions, regime change shenanigans, and crippling sanctions imposed upon others–Cuba for over 60 years comes to mind.
Trolling will get you nowhere.
He’s not the troll here.
You seem unable to engage and deal with the facts he is stating.
Whereas “American perfidy” is your opinion and not a fact.
Please learn the difference. Otherwise you’re just wasting everyone’s time.
Where’s the trolling? Your knowledge of what trolling is seems on par with views on international affairs.
He’s not the troll here.
You seem unable to engage and deal with the facts he is stating.
Whereas “American perfidy” is your opinion and not a fact.
Please learn the difference. Otherwise you’re just wasting everyone’s time.
Where’s the trolling? Your knowledge of what trolling is seems on par with views on international affairs.
This is an established fact. Look at the record of our invasions, regime change shenanigans, and crippling sanctions imposed upon others–Cuba for over 60 years comes to mind.
Trolling will get you nowhere.
When you say that “American perfidy and misbehavior are the greatest threat in the world today” the conclusion sort of follows.
That’s not what he said, just that the US could mind its own business for once. Believe it or not (I suspect you don’t), the world wouldn’t become a hellscape without American interventionism.
Honestly now, do you not wish your government would actually govern? Is it not weird to you that as American engagements overseas have ramped up over the last 30 years, the actual governing has deteriorated to the point of misrule?
The US lurches from crisis to crisis and the rest of the world lurches along, because at this point there is no alternative and we are all either bound to it’s economy or mesmerized by it’s propaganda.
This conflict didn’t have to have global consequences and I’m not at all convinced that dragging it out is doing anyone (except the US and China) any favors. Stoking Ukrainian anger (righteous though it may be) will not help Ukraine, it will bleed it dry, as it does Russia.
I am from a small European country – and crazy as they may be I am extremely glad that my country depends on the Americans rather than Russia or China. Which is where we would be if the US decided to ‘mind its own business for once’.
BTW, I wanted to ask you: Have you ever asked yourself how many hundred thousand dead it would take before *Russia* decided that conquering Ukraine was not worth the carnage?
Sanity and reality are very unpersuasive to this sort.
Sorry for assuming, I think an earlier comment gave me that impression, but maybe I just got mixed up.
With regards to dependencies – don’t you then wish the Europeans would create their own bloc that makes it’s own decisions? I understand why the Americans did what they did (even if I vehemently disagree with it), but (all of) Europe tagging along is like shooting yourself in the right foot after having shot yourself in the left one (over COVID). If Russia needs to be deterred, then we should do it ourselves (I’d prefer this be done via posturing with higher military spending and continued economic relations, rather than war). BTW this isn’t necessarily an argument that this needs to be done through the EU (though that’s probably the only option at this point in time), but personally, as someone who lives in an allegedly neutral country (Austria), I take issue at being dragged into this war (though it might only be economic for the time being, no one knows what escalation might bring).
To answer your question: several I suppose (Russian & Ukrainian manpower is limited after all), but I don’t believe Putin invaded Ukraine to wipe out all Ukrainians (although he would certainly have repressed them culturally) – which is the ever-popular (and frankly stupid) Putin=Hitler line that crops up semi-regularly.
I don’t think anyone can say yet if that’s better or worse than what will end up happening and I do fear for the worst, which is why I want to see a peace deal (of whatever kind is acceptable to all sides).
Sanity and reality are very unpersuasive to this sort.
Sorry for assuming, I think an earlier comment gave me that impression, but maybe I just got mixed up.
With regards to dependencies – don’t you then wish the Europeans would create their own bloc that makes it’s own decisions? I understand why the Americans did what they did (even if I vehemently disagree with it), but (all of) Europe tagging along is like shooting yourself in the right foot after having shot yourself in the left one (over COVID). If Russia needs to be deterred, then we should do it ourselves (I’d prefer this be done via posturing with higher military spending and continued economic relations, rather than war). BTW this isn’t necessarily an argument that this needs to be done through the EU (though that’s probably the only option at this point in time), but personally, as someone who lives in an allegedly neutral country (Austria), I take issue at being dragged into this war (though it might only be economic for the time being, no one knows what escalation might bring).
To answer your question: several I suppose (Russian & Ukrainian manpower is limited after all), but I don’t believe Putin invaded Ukraine to wipe out all Ukrainians (although he would certainly have repressed them culturally) – which is the ever-popular (and frankly stupid) Putin=Hitler line that crops up semi-regularly.
I don’t think anyone can say yet if that’s better or worse than what will end up happening and I do fear for the worst, which is why I want to see a peace deal (of whatever kind is acceptable to all sides).
I am from a small European country – and crazy as they may be I am extremely glad that my country depends on the Americans rather than Russia or China. Which is where we would be if the US decided to ‘mind its own business for once’.
BTW, I wanted to ask you: Have you ever asked yourself how many hundred thousand dead it would take before *Russia* decided that conquering Ukraine was not worth the carnage?
yes he would.
I didn’t say that. If you read what I said, you would know better what I intend.
That’s not what he said, just that the US could mind its own business for once. Believe it or not (I suspect you don’t), the world wouldn’t become a hellscape without American interventionism.
Honestly now, do you not wish your government would actually govern? Is it not weird to you that as American engagements overseas have ramped up over the last 30 years, the actual governing has deteriorated to the point of misrule?
The US lurches from crisis to crisis and the rest of the world lurches along, because at this point there is no alternative and we are all either bound to it’s economy or mesmerized by it’s propaganda.
This conflict didn’t have to have global consequences and I’m not at all convinced that dragging it out is doing anyone (except the US and China) any favors. Stoking Ukrainian anger (righteous though it may be) will not help Ukraine, it will bleed it dry, as it does Russia.
yes he would.
What an absurd, nasty comment. You’d think America invaded Ukraine, not the bloody ruthless dictator who murders his political opponents with poison invades and destroys other countries (Georgia, Ukraine) or even parts of his own e.g. Chechnya, threatens others (Baltics, Poland), and scares longtime neutrals (Finland, Sweden) into requesting membership in an American-led coalition. This is dennis moore territory i.e. dum dum dum.
Do you think you could just elect someone that isn’t a nutter for a change?
We have tried in vain. Our presidential and congressional choices are effectively limited to choosing between the two major parties aka the duopoly. Independent parties rarely appear on the ballots, and if they do, they have already been knee capped by the media’s refusal to take their positions seriously, or to merely allow them to present their ideas to the public via media coverage. As a result, are constantly left with the “lesser of two evils” argument as the basis for voting. But increasingly, and when it comes to America’s Imperialist adventures around the world, the parties are no longer different. They are the same, joined at the hip in support of the money interests that profit from war, and alas, are also the major contributors to campaigns. Such a financial cascade forces the majority of our politicians from acting independently. I suspect this phenomenon may apply to other citizens around the world who would like to see real change.
As a footnote: just returned from a Rage Against the War Machine protest protest–one of about 20 across the country today. In this semi major city of Washington State, we had a turn out of 16 individuals. This meager turnout is a direct result of the absence media blackout on these events. Complete blackout except for Consortium News. So this is what we are up against; an apathetic public, or a public that has been overwhelmed by the constant presentation of only the state’s point of view on the conflict. I see the same things on BBC, DW in Germany and so on. All of us are now living behind a new Iron Curtain of dis-information, aka propaganda pure and simple.
I read about the rage against the war machine protests in America, the antiwar website covered them, the msm media coverage here is diabolical too, I think some were trying to arrange a no 2 nato meeting in London but they were having trouble getting a venue it said on their Web. Not sure if you have seen this:
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/02/13/amidst-hysteria-calling-for-peace-is-hate-more-war-is-peace/
So, here it comes, calling for peace is hate. What can you say.
I read about the rage against the war machine protests in America, the antiwar website covered them, the msm media coverage here is diabolical too, I think some were trying to arrange a no 2 nato meeting in London but they were having trouble getting a venue it said on their Web. Not sure if you have seen this:
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/02/13/amidst-hysteria-calling-for-peace-is-hate-more-war-is-peace/
So, here it comes, calling for peace is hate. What can you say.
We have tried in vain. Our presidential and congressional choices are effectively limited to choosing between the two major parties aka the duopoly. Independent parties rarely appear on the ballots, and if they do, they have already been knee capped by the media’s refusal to take their positions seriously, or to merely allow them to present their ideas to the public via media coverage. As a result, are constantly left with the “lesser of two evils” argument as the basis for voting. But increasingly, and when it comes to America’s Imperialist adventures around the world, the parties are no longer different. They are the same, joined at the hip in support of the money interests that profit from war, and alas, are also the major contributors to campaigns. Such a financial cascade forces the majority of our politicians from acting independently. I suspect this phenomenon may apply to other citizens around the world who would like to see real change.
As a footnote: just returned from a Rage Against the War Machine protest protest–one of about 20 across the country today. In this semi major city of Washington State, we had a turn out of 16 individuals. This meager turnout is a direct result of the absence media blackout on these events. Complete blackout except for Consortium News. So this is what we are up against; an apathetic public, or a public that has been overwhelmed by the constant presentation of only the state’s point of view on the conflict. I see the same things on BBC, DW in Germany and so on. All of us are now living behind a new Iron Curtain of dis-information, aka propaganda pure and simple.
I agree with you entirely. And as an American it’s very unfortunate that the US never seems to learn from its mistakes but is trapped in some sort of virtue signaling, self-righteous loop. And in the case of Ukraine that’s true of both political parties, and if one listens to Lindsay Graham one realizes immediately how far out of left field these people have gone.
So you would prefer a world governed by the faithfulness, upright behaviour and gentle dealing with others of Xi and Putin?
What an absurd, nasty comment. You’d think America invaded Ukraine, not the bloody ruthless dictator who murders his political opponents with poison invades and destroys other countries (Georgia, Ukraine) or even parts of his own e.g. Chechnya, threatens others (Baltics, Poland), and scares longtime neutrals (Finland, Sweden) into requesting membership in an American-led coalition. This is dennis moore territory i.e. dum dum dum.
Do you think you could just elect someone that isn’t a nutter for a change?
I agree with you entirely. And as an American it’s very unfortunate that the US never seems to learn from its mistakes but is trapped in some sort of virtue signaling, self-righteous loop. And in the case of Ukraine that’s true of both political parties, and if one listens to Lindsay Graham one realizes immediately how far out of left field these people have gone.
Better stick to writing waltzes.
Well said on all but the final paragraph.. not that I disagree with it.. I just don’t care much whether you have Tweedledum or Tweedledee in the White House.. it makes not a whit of difference.. the Military Industrial Complex and his evil brothers the Multinational Corporations are in charge and call the shots. These are the kings and queens on the chess board. Ordinary people are pawns.. armies are the knights, castles are the nobility/obscenely rich and the bishops are the all too complicit churches. Only pawns and knights suffer …as civilians and soldiers resp.
To think that people like you used to call France “surrender monkeys.”
“Used to”? What has changed?
By the way, you forgot “cheese eating” as the first part of the phrase.
“Used to”? What has changed?
By the way, you forgot “cheese eating” as the first part of the phrase.
It is very much the US business as well as the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
And alongside the EU and NATO, the US also has moral responsibility for encouraging Ukraine to align with them as well as exploiting Ukraine economically and for political capital during their photo opportunity visits to Maidan and dumb phone conversations which gave Russia the perfect material for constructing their narrative.
There is a due process by which NATO accepts and expels its members. Countries, that adhere to the rules, cannot simply be expelled for no reason. They have invested heavily into their membership. I am glad the Baltic states joined, clearly it was the right thing to do as they knew from the start. The correct answer is Russia didn’t invade because Ukraine went NATO, it invaded because it wasn’t a member and there was an opportunity.
Existential threat my arse. How is NATO threatening Russia when it doesn’t even want to provide arms at the time when Russia has given a completely justified reason for that, at the time when its military is weakened, and when the electorate of most member countries would support it? How is Russia improving their paranoid security idea by divesting itself from military assets and financial capital and inviting Sweden and Finland to join NATO?
Let’s call it what it is — it is an imperialistic genocidal war cut from the same cloth as Nazi conquest, just much weaker. It’s waged to grab the land, punish Ukrainians for not wanting to be Russians and to isolate itself from the West.
This must be written by an American. The British do know where the Baltic states are. Many Americans even don’t Know where Europe is. And what’s that got to do with anything defeats me. Russia is a danger to Europe right now. History shows making peace with a dictatorship is not the way to go.
OK, you, at least, are clear about what you are proposing. That deserves respect even though I disagree.
Basically what you are proposing would restore the Russian empire to what it was in the 1980’s, minus East Germany. The countries expelled from NATO would have been explicitly delivered to the mercies of Russia, and would make some kind of accommodation with their new master out of necessity. Russian invasions would not even be necessary, though they would be pretty painless for Russia if desired. There would again be Russian-controlled tanks on the border of Germany and Greece. This would break the EU, since by my count nine member states would be under Russian dominance, each with a formal EU veto that Russia could have them invoke. And American allies, from Western Europe and across the world would start making backup alliances with local powers since their alliance with the US was clearly not reliable. It remains to be seen how Germany and the rest of Europe would organise their security if that happened, but it is clearly ridiculous to say that this would have no impact on West European security. Whatever you might think I do not consider this an attractive scenario.
For the rest, the stuff about the Maidan ‘coup’ and the Cuban missile crisis echoes too many Russian propaganda points. One of the foreign policy realists linked in this article compared it much more reasonably to Nicaragua, admitting at least that both were popular uprisings (even if both saw a covert military response by the superpower). If you want to compare to Cuba, the relevant comparison is the Cuban revolution, not the missile crisis. No NATO weapons, let alone troops, were appearing in Ukraine prior to the recent invasion.
As for the Russian collusion, it is established fact that the FSB hacked Democratic email accounts and leaked the proceeds in order to favour Trump. It was never proved that Trump collaborated or colluded beforehand (as opposed to just enjoying the result), and quite likely he is actually innocent on that particular point. Still, at least an accusation of colluding with a foreign power to win the presidential election is worth making a scandal over – unlike, say, having consensual oral s-x with a willing young woman.
Who is the ‘sore loser’, BTW? I am unsure whether you mean Trump or Biden.
No, the fact of the matter is that Russia lauched a covert imperialist invasion in 2014, shortly after seizing Crimea. That is what caused the casualties in Donbas. It steadily escalated it up to an overt one in 2022. T
There was no coup. The Russian puppet having sent in Russian assasins in to tame the demonstations against his policy U-turn to suck up to Russia, he then fled and was impeached for it.
Russia nor anyone else has any right to impose red lines against sovereign states, So not at all like Scotland and the UK.
And this war has absolutely nothing to do with an existential threat to Russia, as evidenced by Russia’s refusal to call off the invasion in return for Ukranian neutrality. And everything to do with classic Russian imperialism, attempting to rebuild the recently lost Soviet empire. Barbaric 18/19th century imperialism on a 21st century stage.
Eminently sensible comment. Sadly, the author’s piece is a thicket of jiggery pokey and mumbo jumbo. What’s worse is that the comments here again confirms (for me) the futility of so much discussion — an endless arguing over opinions, interpretations, biases, half truths, media disinformation, what if’s and so on.
Let’s cut to the chase, shall we? American perfidy and misbehavior are the greatest threat in the world today. The revival of the Cold War is not enough it seems; now we must pivot to the East and create two arenas of conflict.
Cut to the chase again: Our heartless invasions and wars have severley brutalized our culture. Our Congress has been hijacked by big money. The gap between what we say our values are and how we behave is cringe worthy.
Right now, the best we Americans can hope for is that NATO and America both get a stiff bang to the nose for their perfidy. It’s time to stand down.
Better stick to writing waltzes.
Well said on all but the final paragraph.. not that I disagree with it.. I just don’t care much whether you have Tweedledum or Tweedledee in the White House.. it makes not a whit of difference.. the Military Industrial Complex and his evil brothers the Multinational Corporations are in charge and call the shots. These are the kings and queens on the chess board. Ordinary people are pawns.. armies are the knights, castles are the nobility/obscenely rich and the bishops are the all too complicit churches. Only pawns and knights suffer …as civilians and soldiers resp.
To think that people like you used to call France “surrender monkeys.”
It is very much the US business as well as the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
And alongside the EU and NATO, the US also has moral responsibility for encouraging Ukraine to align with them as well as exploiting Ukraine economically and for political capital during their photo opportunity visits to Maidan and dumb phone conversations which gave Russia the perfect material for constructing their narrative.
There is a due process by which NATO accepts and expels its members. Countries, that adhere to the rules, cannot simply be expelled for no reason. They have invested heavily into their membership. I am glad the Baltic states joined, clearly it was the right thing to do as they knew from the start. The correct answer is Russia didn’t invade because Ukraine went NATO, it invaded because it wasn’t a member and there was an opportunity.
Existential threat my arse. How is NATO threatening Russia when it doesn’t even want to provide arms at the time when Russia has given a completely justified reason for that, at the time when its military is weakened, and when the electorate of most member countries would support it? How is Russia improving their paranoid security idea by divesting itself from military assets and financial capital and inviting Sweden and Finland to join NATO?
Let’s call it what it is — it is an imperialistic genocidal war cut from the same cloth as Nazi conquest, just much weaker. It’s waged to grab the land, punish Ukrainians for not wanting to be Russians and to isolate itself from the West.
This is just part of the natural process that every European empire has gone through. Some did it better(Britain), some did it worse (France, Portugal). Aiding the Ukrainians accelerates this inevitable process.
The “unrealistic Realists” are simply trapped in a different age–as is Putin.
The idiotic confidence of most Russians at the start also shows the deep sense of unreality pervading their culture.
A nation and people on the way out…
…let’s hope they don’t take the rest of us with them.
…let’s hope they don’t take the rest of us with them.
You’re right – now that Ukraine is in this war, we have to support them. However, we must also demand full accountability from the Americans – and particularly the Democratic Party – for the role played by corrupt US actors – Nuland, FTX, the Bidens etc – in making the war inevitable.
exactly.
I’ll tell you what the US and NATO should do. Butt out of a local regional war that is none of their business and has no impact on their security. And while we’re at it reduce NATO to the countries that belonged to it prior to the fall of the Soviet Union. Nobody is going to go to war directly for the Baltic States. I doubt whether many people in the UK could even point where the baltic states are on the map, and for sure virtually nobody in the US could.
The fact of the matter is, that while Putin launched an offensive in Feb 2022, this proxy war has been going on since 2014 when the US engineered the Maidan coup. Further, Western Ukraine had been constantly bombing the Donbas region since 2014. The truth is that Russia regards the situation as a red line, as would the UK if Scotland seceded and allied itself with say China who installed military bases on Scottish soil. Same goes for how the US reacted to the Cuban missile crisis in 1963 – as an existential threat. Sometimes it pays to actually listen to what countries are saying rather than demonizing them. And the demonization of Russia in the US and specifically by the Democrats is beyond the pale with :”Russia, Russia, Russia”, Russian Collusion…” etc…… that basically destroyed the previous US presidency. And for what – a bold faced lie by a sore looser.
This is just part of the natural process that every European empire has gone through. Some did it better(Britain), some did it worse (France, Portugal). Aiding the Ukrainians accelerates this inevitable process.
The “unrealistic Realists” are simply trapped in a different age–as is Putin.
The idiotic confidence of most Russians at the start also shows the deep sense of unreality pervading their culture.
A nation and people on the way out…
You’re right – now that Ukraine is in this war, we have to support them. However, we must also demand full accountability from the Americans – and particularly the Democratic Party – for the role played by corrupt US actors – Nuland, FTX, the Bidens etc – in making the war inevitable.
exactly.
The only attempt to impose a Carthaginian peace, is by Russia. Claiming otherwise is what is fantasising. Ukraine and friends just want Russia to stop attacking it.
“Ukraine and friends” – sorry to break it to you, but the Ukrainians have no friends, just enemies and opportunists looking to profit from their suffering (who are therefore prolonging it).
I think you’ll find that it is Russia that actually has no friends. And won’t do for a long time into the future.
Could it be that Russia believes that it has no fiends, and indeed does not believe in friendship between nations. I suspect that it, and many other nations, merely believe in alliance, but only for as long as these alliances are useful.
Apart from China….. And the whole BRICS alliance actually.
Could it be that Russia believes that it has no fiends, and indeed does not believe in friendship between nations. I suspect that it, and many other nations, merely believe in alliance, but only for as long as these alliances are useful.
Apart from China….. And the whole BRICS alliance actually.
There’s a strong Ukrainian community in the UK, following the migration of many families around the time of WW2. I went to school with their children, and consider them my friends, as do many others, in many communities in the UK.
Not just on a personal level, you are quite simply wrong, misinformed, and with your bias on show for all to see.
Nope, I’m talking about states and there are no friends when it comes to geopolitics. The fact that US/UK propaganda is fine tuned to pull your heartstrings doesn’t change the fact that your governments would drop the Ukrainians in a heartbeat if they actually achieved their (occasionally stated) goal of weakening Russia.
Go ask the Kurds (or Afghani women for a more recent example) what western friendship is worth.
The prospect now isn’t Russia’s weakening.
It’s the collapse of Russia.
It will lose a million + casualties in it’s latest offensive
Yeah… okay. As I’ve said above, your giddiness for that prospect is disturbing, since in practice it’d mean much more instability, violence and suffering down the road for innumerable people and I don’t think that’s the most preferable outcome to this situation.
Yeah… okay. As I’ve said above, your giddiness for that prospect is disturbing, since in practice it’d mean much more instability, violence and suffering down the road for innumerable people and I don’t think that’s the most preferable outcome to this situation.
The prospect now isn’t Russia’s weakening.
It’s the collapse of Russia.
It will lose a million + casualties in it’s latest offensive
Nope, I’m talking about states and there are no friends when it comes to geopolitics. The fact that US/UK propaganda is fine tuned to pull your heartstrings doesn’t change the fact that your governments would drop the Ukrainians in a heartbeat if they actually achieved their (occasionally stated) goal of weakening Russia.
Go ask the Kurds (or Afghani women for a more recent example) what western friendship is worth.
I think you’ll find that it is Russia that actually has no friends. And won’t do for a long time into the future.
There’s a strong Ukrainian community in the UK, following the migration of many families around the time of WW2. I went to school with their children, and consider them my friends, as do many others, in many communities in the UK.
Not just on a personal level, you are quite simply wrong, misinformed, and with your bias on show for all to see.
“Ukraine and friends” – sorry to break it to you, but the Ukrainians have no friends, just enemies and opportunists looking to profit from their suffering (who are therefore prolonging it).
You are doing the same thing. Instead of pontificating about what we should not do, say what you think we should do. And what consequences you expect from it. In some detail. If you think that we should give Russia what they started this war for and hand over Ukraine to be a Russian-controlled puppet state, you can at the very least admit openly to what you are proposing.
The only attempt to impose a Carthaginian peace, is by Russia. Claiming otherwise is what is fantasising. Ukraine and friends just want Russia to stop attacking it.
Deleted
To answer your many questions:
Russia is a nuclear power, with China waiting in the wings.
Not sure China is waiting in any wings,,,
Not sure China is waiting in any wings,,,
The way I read it (through all the jargon) is that the war is the Ukrainians fault for wanting to align their country more with Europe rather than being under the influence of the Kremlin.
I agree with you in that most of the pieces and comments I’ve read demanding peace right now do so by basically demanding that Ukraine gives up territory, control of its foreign policy and with no guarantees that Russia won’t simply try again in 5 years time, whereas Russia concedes absolutely nothing. Given the choice between being a Russian colony like Belarus or keep fighting I’d wager most Ukrainians would choose the latter. There’s a legitimate argument about whether it’s in the interests of NATO to keep supplying Ukraine the way it has been (I personally think it is as giving in to Putin now would simply see more bloodshed further down the line in my opinion) but all these suggestions that the Ukrainians are simply stooges doing Americas bidding is insulting
Good comment other than your opening line. The war is not “Ukraine’s fault.” It’s all on Putin. He ordered the invasion. No invasion no war. Ukraine is the victim. It isn’t Ukraine’s “fault.”
That was what I believe the article was trying to say, not my personal opinion. I agree this is entirely on the Russians
That was what I believe the article was trying to say, not my personal opinion. I agree this is entirely on the Russians
Good comment other than your opening line. The war is not “Ukraine’s fault.” It’s all on Putin. He ordered the invasion. No invasion no war. Ukraine is the victim. It isn’t Ukraine’s “fault.”
The whole thing was pure gibberish containing nudges… I could not bother to get through it – not if you actually tried to make sense of it. Anyone who seriously comments on this mess of an article is just complimenting the Emperor on his robes.
But providing more and more powerful weapons is surely the best way to prolong the war, forever and resulting in the stalemate no one seems to want.. you seem to think upping the ante will shorten the war? I think the opposite is clearly and patently true.. I cannot see any logic in your assertion unless you think Russia is devoid of defensive weapons?? The West is running out of weapons fgs and Russia seems to have an endless supply, as well as nukes btw!!
It depends, if you give the Ukrainians the means to break the Russian lines and reclaim territory through Donbas surely that would hasten the wars end, or at least push the front line back to the Russian border? Not arming them sufficiently could see many more years of aimless Russian bombardment with front lines largely static
Obviously the quickest way to end the war is for Ukraine to surrender. Is that what you’re advocating? Sure sounds like it.
It depends, if you give the Ukrainians the means to break the Russian lines and reclaim territory through Donbas surely that would hasten the wars end, or at least push the front line back to the Russian border? Not arming them sufficiently could see many more years of aimless Russian bombardment with front lines largely static
Obviously the quickest way to end the war is for Ukraine to surrender. Is that what you’re advocating? Sure sounds like it.
I agree, and one could argue the duty of the western alliance is to make sure this war comes to a conclusion as soon as possible…. And to avoid a long protracted stalemate we need to provide sufficient resources to Ukraine to overcome the invaders.
Yes such a silly question.
Oh, and did the allies escalate the similar war against the Nazis? Or did they appease the aggressor, as the writer wants?
I think it’s very clear what it is saying.:
Fantasising about imposing a Carthaginian peace on a nuclear armed regime is recklessly suicidal.
I do wish it wasn’t so, but like it or not, it is.
Deleted
To answer your many questions:
Russia is a nuclear power, with China waiting in the wings.
The way I read it (through all the jargon) is that the war is the Ukrainians fault for wanting to align their country more with Europe rather than being under the influence of the Kremlin.
I agree with you in that most of the pieces and comments I’ve read demanding peace right now do so by basically demanding that Ukraine gives up territory, control of its foreign policy and with no guarantees that Russia won’t simply try again in 5 years time, whereas Russia concedes absolutely nothing. Given the choice between being a Russian colony like Belarus or keep fighting I’d wager most Ukrainians would choose the latter. There’s a legitimate argument about whether it’s in the interests of NATO to keep supplying Ukraine the way it has been (I personally think it is as giving in to Putin now would simply see more bloodshed further down the line in my opinion) but all these suggestions that the Ukrainians are simply stooges doing Americas bidding is insulting
The whole thing was pure gibberish containing nudges… I could not bother to get through it – not if you actually tried to make sense of it. Anyone who seriously comments on this mess of an article is just complimenting the Emperor on his robes.
But providing more and more powerful weapons is surely the best way to prolong the war, forever and resulting in the stalemate no one seems to want.. you seem to think upping the ante will shorten the war? I think the opposite is clearly and patently true.. I cannot see any logic in your assertion unless you think Russia is devoid of defensive weapons?? The West is running out of weapons fgs and Russia seems to have an endless supply, as well as nukes btw!!
There seems to be some interesting analysis mixed in with the mountains of psychobabble in this article, but it is hard to pin down exactly what it is saying. One thing obviously missing is any analysis of the psychology and motivations of Russia, that (unlike any country in the West) is accorded the respect of being treated merely as rational actor with legitimate interests. There are some hints, in quotes like:
“Ukraine, along with its closest partners in Poland and the Baltic nations,”
“Ukraine’s strategic ambition is to overcome Russia once and for all and break away from Moscow’s historical control.[…] it is crushing this larger Ukrainian ambition that motivates the Kremlin”
“Ukraine’s future as a sovereign state would now hinge on its ability to successfully engineer an escalation.”
“recognise[s] Russia’s status as a regional power with its own existential imperatives of strategic and ontological security,”
If Mr Moeni believes that the West should recognise Russias legitimate right to have full control over a no longer sovereign Ukraine (and the Baltic states? and Poland?) that is certainly a legitimate viewpoint. Only he owes us the courtesy of saying so explicitly, and discussing in some detail how the solution that he is recommending would actually look. Including why it is in the interest of Western Europe yet again to be confronted with an economically weak and militarily aggressive Russian neighbour with a recent history of getting what it wants by successful invasions. Moreover he should explain why now is the time when the West should publicly abandon their support for Ukraines aim of restoring the territories that Russia has grabbed. Why give a huge concession to Russia without getting anything in return, at a time when Russia has shown no intention of stopping with less than her maximum demands? A result that saw Ukraine independent, sovereign, viable, and safe from further Russian invasions would seem to be worth some territorial concessions and a guarantee of neutrality. It would certainly be better than a forever war in the probably forlorn hope of regaining Crimea. But the time to make that concession would be during the peace negotiations, in return for a matching Russian quid-pro-quo. Not now, when Russia would simply pocket the concession and continue fighting for more.
Well the author certainly won his bet to use ‘ontology’ and its derivatives more often in this piece than in any other article ever written! This word being new to me I looked up its meaning and am still little the wiser – it’s something about the study of being, existence, becoming and reality, whatever that is. Perhaps he could confirm that a summary of the article is ‘IMHO this war will never end without negotiations effectively giving Russia what it wants’. Others may disagree.
Talking of philosophical concepts, the author also quotes (yawn) Nietzsche.
This always seems to be in an effort to support some point or other that suits the writer’s purpose, but all it does is demonstrate an inability to make the case for himself.
In this instance, it’s regarding “the veil of illusion” with which actors (i.e. state actors) cloak their actions. Well, what a surprise! The Russian invasion of Ukraine, which includes well-documented torture, rape and transporting of civilians into Russian camps is just a “special military operation”.
There’s a much simpler concept which is entirely absent from this article: balance. It’s been picked up in previous Comments so no need to develop that further.
The quote, from Birth of Tragedy, has nothing to do with the practical matter of a state or any other actor concealing its actions.
Rather, it describes what Nietzsche calls “the Hamlet Doctrine.” The preceding line is, “Knowledge kills action.”
Whatever came of the investigations into the bridge explosion in Crimea last October? Did the Ukrainians employ a suicide bomber to drive the truck?
The quote, from Birth of Tragedy, has nothing to do with the practical matter of a state or any other actor concealing its actions.
Rather, it describes what Nietzsche calls “the Hamlet Doctrine.” The preceding line is, “Knowledge kills action.”
Whatever came of the investigations into the bridge explosion in Crimea last October? Did the Ukrainians employ a suicide bomber to drive the truck?
Ha! Thanks for posting that comment , I was just about to ask the very same question. A quick Google search revealed something about metaphysics which helped me not at all. Unheard being the haunt of worldly and well-read types, hopefully someone will be able to enlighten us…
My understanding, perhaps flawed, has always been that the term “ontological” (as in “an ontological belief”) implied “without evidence”, i.e., as in a religious belief or faith. A wiser commentator might correct me.
Close. Not based on evidence, but not faith or belief based. A priori reasoning could be something we know deduced from principals – like math. Consider Neitzche’s theory of the eternal return. Anything that is possible must be inevitable given time stretching infinitely into the future. And anything that has happened once, will happen again, since time played out endlessly will eventually repeat the exact same series of causes and effects, endlessly. Or more humorously, 100 monkeys with typewriters will eventually produce the collected works of Shakespeare, given enough time.
Thanks for the try Jim, I do know what ‘a priori reasoning’ is, but none the wiser about ‘ontological’.
I don’t disagree that the use of the word causes confusion and should be avoided. You probably noticed when you looked it up that it means different things to different schools of thought. Ultimately once we no longer agree on the meaning of words, we have no hope of understanding eachother.
…try thinking about it as one’s “lived experience”. That’s how the Woke deploy the idea of a particular version of reality.
Well this thread was going quite nicely until you brought up that awful meaningless w… word. Give us a break, it just means you are of a conservative bent and don’t like people who aren’t!
Right nothing to see there. Never mind that academia and the media have been gobbled up by a quasi-religious ideology that demeans and diminishes the values central to human progress.
Right nothing to see there. Never mind that academia and the media have been gobbled up by a quasi-religious ideology that demeans and diminishes the values central to human progress.
Well this thread was going quite nicely until you brought up that awful meaningless w… word. Give us a break, it just means you are of a conservative bent and don’t like people who aren’t!
I don’t disagree that the use of the word causes confusion and should be avoided. You probably noticed when you looked it up that it means different things to different schools of thought. Ultimately once we no longer agree on the meaning of words, we have no hope of understanding eachother.
…try thinking about it as one’s “lived experience”. That’s how the Woke deploy the idea of a particular version of reality.
Thanks for the try Jim, I do know what ‘a priori reasoning’ is, but none the wiser about ‘ontological’.
Close. Not based on evidence, but not faith or belief based. A priori reasoning could be something we know deduced from principals – like math. Consider Neitzche’s theory of the eternal return. Anything that is possible must be inevitable given time stretching infinitely into the future. And anything that has happened once, will happen again, since time played out endlessly will eventually repeat the exact same series of causes and effects, endlessly. Or more humorously, 100 monkeys with typewriters will eventually produce the collected works of Shakespeare, given enough time.
My understanding, perhaps flawed, has always been that the term “ontological” (as in “an ontological belief”) implied “without evidence”, i.e., as in a religious belief or faith. A wiser commentator might correct me.
Ha, did the the same… Never heard the word “ontology” repeated so many times. I also had to look up its meaning. I found the whole article very unclear and long-winded.
My understanding is that the author wants peace talks, which probably every Western country would secretly prefer than escalating an unwinnable war. But the big elephant in the room is how much of the conquered territories Putin might be able to retain without making him look like the winner. Putin or any successor will never give up Crimea, because 68%of the population is Russian, and the Black Sea fleet is stationed there since the Russian Empire. Could parts of the Donbas region become neutral and form a buffer zone? Maybe the Western part of the Ukraine will form a special relationship with the EU, and her security could be guaranteed by the West without being part of the NATO. I cannot imagine the Western alliance interested in a prolonged war as the Ukraine is basically being destroyed in the longtime. All the current weapons provided by the West will make little difference without man power. No Western country is willing to send their soldiers to the Ukraine and will risk WWIII.
Been looking up this word ‘ontology’ for years and I still don’t know what it means other than “I’m clever and you’re not”.
Agreed he needs to come down from his ivory tower, at least in terms of using to plain language. (Maybe he should have used Chat GPT for a translation.) The repetition of ‘ontological’ was nauseous. He might have just referred to the relevant party’s “lived experience” to convey the sense he was after.
The author seems to be using the term ‘ontological’ in the sense of ‘existential’, as in the Russians would perceive an attack on Crimea as an ‘existential threat’. An ontology is something that you have come to accept as self-evident fact, not requiring further explanation. A psychic for example may have an ontology which includes the existence of ghost and spirits, quite different from the ontologies of a scientist
The author does say how he’s using “ontological” – in the sense of “self”, of “own concept of identity”.
The concept is ideological, but is not the same as ideology. The US may espouse the ideology of liberal democracy and non-aggression, but her concept of identity allows the US to attack other nations at whim and instal autocrats over popularly elected politicians without seeing any contradiction to its proclaimed ideology.
I suspect that the ‘ontology’ stuff is a technical term in a school of International Politics scholars – meaning something like nations going to war not only for material interest, but driven by the need to confirm their rightful place in the world. Which would suggest that “a reasonable off-ramp that recognises Russia’s status as a regional power with its own existential imperatives of strategic and ontological security“, means recognising that Russia has an inherent right to go to war in order to be able to feel good about itself. Maybe not surprising that he prefers to cloak that thought in jargon.
And it smacks of ivory tower detachment to emphasize the ‘ontological’ or ‘epistemological’ aspects of a bloody war.
And it smacks of ivory tower detachment to emphasize the ‘ontological’ or ‘epistemological’ aspects of a bloody war.
Talking of philosophical concepts, the author also quotes (yawn) Nietzsche.
This always seems to be in an effort to support some point or other that suits the writer’s purpose, but all it does is demonstrate an inability to make the case for himself.
In this instance, it’s regarding “the veil of illusion” with which actors (i.e. state actors) cloak their actions. Well, what a surprise! The Russian invasion of Ukraine, which includes well-documented torture, rape and transporting of civilians into Russian camps is just a “special military operation”.
There’s a much simpler concept which is entirely absent from this article: balance. It’s been picked up in previous Comments so no need to develop that further.
Ha! Thanks for posting that comment , I was just about to ask the very same question. A quick Google search revealed something about metaphysics which helped me not at all. Unheard being the haunt of worldly and well-read types, hopefully someone will be able to enlighten us…
Ha, did the the same… Never heard the word “ontology” repeated so many times. I also had to look up its meaning. I found the whole article very unclear and long-winded.
My understanding is that the author wants peace talks, which probably every Western country would secretly prefer than escalating an unwinnable war. But the big elephant in the room is how much of the conquered territories Putin might be able to retain without making him look like the winner. Putin or any successor will never give up Crimea, because 68%of the population is Russian, and the Black Sea fleet is stationed there since the Russian Empire. Could parts of the Donbas region become neutral and form a buffer zone? Maybe the Western part of the Ukraine will form a special relationship with the EU, and her security could be guaranteed by the West without being part of the NATO. I cannot imagine the Western alliance interested in a prolonged war as the Ukraine is basically being destroyed in the longtime. All the current weapons provided by the West will make little difference without man power. No Western country is willing to send their soldiers to the Ukraine and will risk WWIII.
Been looking up this word ‘ontology’ for years and I still don’t know what it means other than “I’m clever and you’re not”.
Agreed he needs to come down from his ivory tower, at least in terms of using to plain language. (Maybe he should have used Chat GPT for a translation.) The repetition of ‘ontological’ was nauseous. He might have just referred to the relevant party’s “lived experience” to convey the sense he was after.
The author seems to be using the term ‘ontological’ in the sense of ‘existential’, as in the Russians would perceive an attack on Crimea as an ‘existential threat’. An ontology is something that you have come to accept as self-evident fact, not requiring further explanation. A psychic for example may have an ontology which includes the existence of ghost and spirits, quite different from the ontologies of a scientist
The author does say how he’s using “ontological” – in the sense of “self”, of “own concept of identity”.
The concept is ideological, but is not the same as ideology. The US may espouse the ideology of liberal democracy and non-aggression, but her concept of identity allows the US to attack other nations at whim and instal autocrats over popularly elected politicians without seeing any contradiction to its proclaimed ideology.
I suspect that the ‘ontology’ stuff is a technical term in a school of International Politics scholars – meaning something like nations going to war not only for material interest, but driven by the need to confirm their rightful place in the world. Which would suggest that “a reasonable off-ramp that recognises Russia’s status as a regional power with its own existential imperatives of strategic and ontological security“, means recognising that Russia has an inherent right to go to war in order to be able to feel good about itself. Maybe not surprising that he prefers to cloak that thought in jargon.
Well the author certainly won his bet to use ‘ontology’ and its derivatives more often in this piece than in any other article ever written! This word being new to me I looked up its meaning and am still little the wiser – it’s something about the study of being, existence, becoming and reality, whatever that is. Perhaps he could confirm that a summary of the article is ‘IMHO this war will never end without negotiations effectively giving Russia what it wants’. Others may disagree.
I think this is one of the best and most important articles I have read here. I think it is important people understand the reality of what they are calling for when they call for more and more weapons.
‘The question now is whether the West should allow itself to be entrapped into that war and jeopardise the fate of the entire world in doing so.’
More people need to wake up to this reality.
. ‘Such a maximalist desire for “complete victory” is not only highly attritional and suggestive of yet another endless war, but it is also reckless; its very success could trigger a nuclear holocaust.’
Bleak reality.
‘ The West has indeed wounded Russia; now it must decide if it wants to let this wound fester and conflagrate the entire world’
We need to step back from the precipice.
DIPLOMACY NOW. NO NATO WAR.
1914 & 1939, third time lucky Ms Emery.
Unfortunately ‘peoples’ that have endured years, if not centuries of bondage, tend to behave somewhat irresponsibly when ‘ freedom’ arrives. For example Serbia in 1914, Poland in 1939 and now the Ukraine over the Crimea.
This state of affairs, coupled with all this Gender and BLM nonsense strikes me as rather decadent and there is a distinct whiff of Weimar in the air!
Maybe we could try and talk some sense into all of them. Unlikely.
I have the book ‘When money dies – the nightmare of the Weimar hyperinflation’….Heavy read.
Third time – we will have to have some serious luck on our side I think. Fingers crossed.
And don’t underestimate the seething anger many Russians still have towards the West and it’s Clinton-cheerled “shock therapy” over the rouble crash of the 1990’s.
At one point, my wife had enough savings to buy a modest car. By the end, she bought a coat.
Yes I feel like they probably mean business to be honest, did I see a comment of yours that said you have visited crimea? Do you think they would welcome us further arming ukraine?
My wife is from a place near Yevpatoriya, where the British fleet landed in order to take part in the Crimean War.
I’ve been to the Alma, Balaklava, Yalta, Sevastopol of course, Simferopol (the capital), Inkerman Heights etc etc.
Crimea is resolutely pro-Russian. When the Kerch bridge was bombed, it was the only time I heard my mother-in-law sounding genocidal, such was her fury.
The only way I can draw a parallel to the Russian patriotism of the Crimean Russians is to compare the love for Britain of the Northern Irish unionists. More British than the British.
My mother-in-law, in her mid-70’s still works the accounts in a local restaurant for a woman who considers herself Ukrainian, though for practical reasons, she’s taken Russian citizenship. She quietly grumbles about Putin, but she is literally the only person I’ve heard either my wife or her wider family mention who isn’t fanatically supportive of Putin.
My stepdaughter is a student at Sevastopol State University, and so drone strikes on the big naval base there touches close to home, as did the strike on the military airbase near Yevpatoriya.
If the Ukrainians ever mounted a serious attempt to reclaim Crimea, I’m certain it would end in a nuclear event, such is the neuralgic status of Crimea for both Crimean Russians and Russians generally.
Thank you, a very rare insight that we could perhaps do with a bit more of. From what I have been able to learn myself, my understanding is that most crimeans have strong ties with russia and that russia would view an attack on it as an attack on Russia.
I think on both sides of the lines are normal people, who have ties all over and just want a normal life. I hope very much that your stepdaughter keeps safe and we find a way to resolve this without further escalation.
Thank you. Very kind, sir.
Thank you. Very kind, sir.
Good to hear from someone with a clear connection to the place (unlike us wordsmiths from either side).
Can I ask you for an opinion? What do you think it would take, how many concessions would be needed, before Russia was satisfied and no longer felt it was worth the trouble of going to war to gain more? The Donbass? The four oblasts? Odessa? Control over all Ukraine? Over Moldova? The Baltic states? Demilitarising Poland and/or Finland? More?
The two full republics of the Donbas and the two oblasts, perhaps with the bit of Kherson west of the Dneiper kept by Ukraine and perhaps Zhaporyzhya City kept by the Ukrainians with the rest of the oblast kept by Russia;
Crimea of course;
A non-aligned government in Kiev that stops with the OUN cosplay and builds bridges with its fellow Slavic neighbour rather than passes anti-Russian laws and builds statues to the genocidist Stepan Bandera.
I personally want Odessa back with Russia, particularly after the hideous attack of 2nd May 2015; a date that will live in infamy for Russians.
But that probably means Putin ordering the destruction of the jewel of Catherine the Great, so I would understand if he was to leave Odessa to a fraternal, NEUTRAL Ukraine.
Forget Moldova and the rest of it. Putin has a friendly government in Tiblisi after all the colour revolution stuff. He wants the same in Ukraine. He has no interest in anyone else. He’s already written them off as satrapies of the neocons in Washington.
Also, please remember, Russians view(ed) Ukraine, Russia and Belarus as a holy trinity. There are even Russian battle flags in the Donbas referring to this.
The text on the flag reads :
“For faith, tsar and holy triune Russia!”
They view Great Russia (Russia), White Russia (Belarus) and Little Russia (Ukraine) in the same way as British Unionists view England, Scotland and Wales. Brothers and sisters, not foreign nations. Many many Russians feel like this, both inside Russia and without.
Michael Rossis youtube channel is very very informative in that he subtitles every major Putin and Lavrov speech plus Q&A. Listen for yourself to them. No need to speculate.
https://www.youtube.com/@MichaelRossiPoliSci
Thanks, that was informative, and fits with what I was thinking. I would put it slightly differently, of course – to me ‘fraternal and NEUTRAL’ means ‘disarmed, defenceless, and subservient to Moscow’ (which is probably why the Ukrainians are so anxious to avoid it), but it certainly makes sense. It is really too bad that the Ukrainians do not feel the same sense of pan-Russian brotherhood that the Russians do, no? As the Germans say: “Und willst du nicht mein Bruder sein, dann schlag ich dich den Schaedel ein”.
I do wonder about the Baltics, though. They are too close to St Petersburg, have significant Russian minorities, block access to Kaliningrad, and after this war they will definitely have a NATO garrison as a prevention against unforeseen invasions. But I shall bear in mind what you said.
I admit I may be being too sanguine about the Baltics, particularly Latvia and Estonia who both have sizeable ethnic Russian populations who feel they are put upon by the majorities of both countries.
And yes, it’s a real shame. I guess many Scots don’t share the same fraternal feelings towards the English either.
Nationalism is a strange thing – it causes some of the most noble and selfless acts a human is possible of, and also some of the most depraved.
I admit I may be being too sanguine about the Baltics, particularly Latvia and Estonia who both have sizeable ethnic Russian populations who feel they are put upon by the majorities of both countries.
And yes, it’s a real shame. I guess many Scots don’t share the same fraternal feelings towards the English either.
Nationalism is a strange thing – it causes some of the most noble and selfless acts a human is possible of, and also some of the most depraved.
Thanks, that was informative, and fits with what I was thinking. I would put it slightly differently, of course – to me ‘fraternal and NEUTRAL’ means ‘disarmed, defenceless, and subservient to Moscow’ (which is probably why the Ukrainians are so anxious to avoid it), but it certainly makes sense. It is really too bad that the Ukrainians do not feel the same sense of pan-Russian brotherhood that the Russians do, no? As the Germans say: “Und willst du nicht mein Bruder sein, dann schlag ich dich den Schaedel ein”.
I do wonder about the Baltics, though. They are too close to St Petersburg, have significant Russian minorities, block access to Kaliningrad, and after this war they will definitely have a NATO garrison as a prevention against unforeseen invasions. But I shall bear in mind what you said.
The two full republics of the Donbas and the two oblasts, perhaps with the bit of Kherson west of the Dneiper kept by Ukraine and perhaps Zhaporyzhya City kept by the Ukrainians with the rest of the oblast kept by Russia;
Crimea of course;
A non-aligned government in Kiev that stops with the OUN cosplay and builds bridges with its fellow Slavic neighbour rather than passes anti-Russian laws and builds statues to the genocidist Stepan Bandera.
I personally want Odessa back with Russia, particularly after the hideous attack of 2nd May 2015; a date that will live in infamy for Russians.
But that probably means Putin ordering the destruction of the jewel of Catherine the Great, so I would understand if he was to leave Odessa to a fraternal, NEUTRAL Ukraine.
Forget Moldova and the rest of it. Putin has a friendly government in Tiblisi after all the colour revolution stuff. He wants the same in Ukraine. He has no interest in anyone else. He’s already written them off as satrapies of the neocons in Washington.
Also, please remember, Russians view(ed) Ukraine, Russia and Belarus as a holy trinity. There are even Russian battle flags in the Donbas referring to this.
The text on the flag reads :
“For faith, tsar and holy triune Russia!”
They view Great Russia (Russia), White Russia (Belarus) and Little Russia (Ukraine) in the same way as British Unionists view England, Scotland and Wales. Brothers and sisters, not foreign nations. Many many Russians feel like this, both inside Russia and without.
Michael Rossis youtube channel is very very informative in that he subtitles every major Putin and Lavrov speech plus Q&A. Listen for yourself to them. No need to speculate.
https://www.youtube.com/@MichaelRossiPoliSci
Thank you, a very rare insight that we could perhaps do with a bit more of. From what I have been able to learn myself, my understanding is that most crimeans have strong ties with russia and that russia would view an attack on it as an attack on Russia.
I think on both sides of the lines are normal people, who have ties all over and just want a normal life. I hope very much that your stepdaughter keeps safe and we find a way to resolve this without further escalation.
Good to hear from someone with a clear connection to the place (unlike us wordsmiths from either side).
Can I ask you for an opinion? What do you think it would take, how many concessions would be needed, before Russia was satisfied and no longer felt it was worth the trouble of going to war to gain more? The Donbass? The four oblasts? Odessa? Control over all Ukraine? Over Moldova? The Baltic states? Demilitarising Poland and/or Finland? More?
My wife is from a place near Yevpatoriya, where the British fleet landed in order to take part in the Crimean War.
I’ve been to the Alma, Balaklava, Yalta, Sevastopol of course, Simferopol (the capital), Inkerman Heights etc etc.
Crimea is resolutely pro-Russian. When the Kerch bridge was bombed, it was the only time I heard my mother-in-law sounding genocidal, such was her fury.
The only way I can draw a parallel to the Russian patriotism of the Crimean Russians is to compare the love for Britain of the Northern Irish unionists. More British than the British.
My mother-in-law, in her mid-70’s still works the accounts in a local restaurant for a woman who considers herself Ukrainian, though for practical reasons, she’s taken Russian citizenship. She quietly grumbles about Putin, but she is literally the only person I’ve heard either my wife or her wider family mention who isn’t fanatically supportive of Putin.
My stepdaughter is a student at Sevastopol State University, and so drone strikes on the big naval base there touches close to home, as did the strike on the military airbase near Yevpatoriya.
If the Ukrainians ever mounted a serious attempt to reclaim Crimea, I’m certain it would end in a nuclear event, such is the neuralgic status of Crimea for both Crimean Russians and Russians generally.
Reminds one of the Weimar Republic, does it not? You lose a war (hot or cold), government, daily life and known certainties all crumble, money becomes worthless, … In the end you finally get on your feet again and start working on gaining back what you have lost. I am not sneering, or trying to diminish the anger or loss – but how are other countries supposed to deal with this kind of situation?
Yes I feel like they probably mean business to be honest, did I see a comment of yours that said you have visited crimea? Do you think they would welcome us further arming ukraine?
Reminds one of the Weimar Republic, does it not? You lose a war (hot or cold), government, daily life and known certainties all crumble, money becomes worthless, … In the end you finally get on your feet again and start working on gaining back what you have lost. I am not sneering, or trying to diminish the anger or loss – but how are other countries supposed to deal with this kind of situation?
And don’t underestimate the seething anger many Russians still have towards the West and it’s Clinton-cheerled “shock therapy” over the rouble crash of the 1990’s.
At one point, my wife had enough savings to buy a modest car. By the end, she bought a coat.
Maybe we could try and talk some sense into all of them. Unlikely.
I have the book ‘When money dies – the nightmare of the Weimar hyperinflation’….Heavy read.
Third time – we will have to have some serious luck on our side I think. Fingers crossed.
The problem is, Russia is an inherently “Failure-Oriented Civilization.”
At particular times, it adopts a popular western model. But not being part of the West, immediately, ossifies, and then eventually collapses.
This is just the latest instance in its 800 years of failure.
You can’t change it–unless you change the nature of Russian culture.
Completely.
Hello Mr logan. So, we are relying on the fact that russia, being a ‘failure oriented civilisation’, will just fold up?
Is there actually any historical fact in your claim that russia is any more ‘failure oriented’ than anywhere else?
The Byzantine model collapsed with the end of Ivan the Dread’s dynasty.
The Petrine model (based on Louis XIV’s absolutism), collapsed in.1917.
The Soviet model, based on a really dysfunctional form of socialism, collapsed in 1991.
Now, Putin’s model of international criminal enterprise is collapsing.
Russia on its own can’t create a viable state, and is always too proud and ignorant to learn from, and integrate into, the larger world.
They’ve been fatally irradiated since 24 Feb 2023. They just have to go through the long, terminal illness.
No hope now, with or without Putin.
‘ based on a really dysfunctional form of socialism,’
I am worried we will be forced into a really dysfunctional form of communism by the time we are done with sanctions and f*cked up supply chains.
So you think they are already down to be fatally irradiated, West wins. How badly flattened is Europe or Britain by this point though? Putin has some range on his missiles too. He may also want to do some fatal irradiation.
The “Peterine” model as you charmingly call it collapsed because of abject military defeat. Thus were the Romanovs swept away just as the Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns would be the following year.
Nothing particular unusual it that, and had Russia triumphed in say 1917/8 we might still have Romanovs on the throne today.
Ivan the Dread sounds charming…
Others call him The Terrible!
Thanks, appreciate the back up, Mr logans russian history lessons are hard to follow.
Thanks, appreciate the back up, Mr logans russian history lessons are hard to follow.
Others call him The Terrible!
Ivan the Dread sounds charming…
‘ based on a really dysfunctional form of socialism,’
I am worried we will be forced into a really dysfunctional form of communism by the time we are done with sanctions and f*cked up supply chains.
So you think they are already down to be fatally irradiated, West wins. How badly flattened is Europe or Britain by this point though? Putin has some range on his missiles too. He may also want to do some fatal irradiation.
The “Peterine” model as you charmingly call it collapsed because of abject military defeat. Thus were the Romanovs swept away just as the Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns would be the following year.
Nothing particular unusual it that, and had Russia triumphed in say 1917/8 we might still have Romanovs on the throne today.
The Byzantine model collapsed with the end of Ivan the Dread’s dynasty.
The Petrine model (based on Louis XIV’s absolutism), collapsed in.1917.
The Soviet model, based on a really dysfunctional form of socialism, collapsed in 1991.
Now, Putin’s model of international criminal enterprise is collapsing.
Russia on its own can’t create a viable state, and is always too proud and ignorant to learn from, and integrate into, the larger world.
They’ve been fatally irradiated since 24 Feb 2023. They just have to go through the long, terminal illness.
No hope now, with or without Putin.
St Cyril, Peter the Great and Katherine the Great all made considerable progress towards Europeanisation, but old habits die hard, and since 1905 if not before, its all been downhill.
Russia can never integrate itself into the ever-changing West. So it must always collapse when the West moves on.
1) The Byzantine regime of Ivan the Dread collapses with the Time of Troubles in the 17th C., after the imperial Roman model fails.
2) Peter the Great’s absolutist regime collapses in 1917, after democracy becomes the norm.
3) The Marxist regime of the Soviets collapses in 1991, after Marxism fails.
4l) And now Putin’s regime, based on posts cold War globalism (and very often accompanying intl crime) is collapsing.
Because Russia always remains apart from the ever-evolving West, every time the latter moves on, Russia crumbles.
History may be very unwelcome.
But it is the only reality.
Russia can never integrate itself into the ever-changing West. So it must always collapse when the West moves on.
1) The Byzantine regime of Ivan the Dread collapses with the Time of Troubles in the 17th C., after the imperial Roman model fails.
2) Peter the Great’s absolutist regime collapses in 1917, after democracy becomes the norm.
3) The Marxist regime of the Soviets collapses in 1991, after Marxism fails.
4l) And now Putin’s regime, based on posts cold War globalism (and very often accompanying intl crime) is collapsing.
Because Russia always remains apart from the ever-evolving West, every time the latter moves on, Russia crumbles.
History may be very unwelcome.
But it is the only reality.
Hello Mr logan. So, we are relying on the fact that russia, being a ‘failure oriented civilisation’, will just fold up?
Is there actually any historical fact in your claim that russia is any more ‘failure oriented’ than anywhere else?
St Cyril, Peter the Great and Katherine the Great all made considerable progress towards Europeanisation, but old habits die hard, and since 1905 if not before, its all been downhill.
The article is almost complete gobbledygook. Remind me, did NATO invade Russia? Strange how Stop the War types think you could somehow negotiate with Putin when he doesn’t want to negotiate and lies all the time anyway.
Stop the war type getting battle fatigue. If you are going to troll my comments at least please, do it properly. You cannot just write off the whole article as gobbledygook. Lame, unintelligent.
The reasons for this whole debacle are many and complex.
I personally will never get anywhere near putin. I have no idea if he will now negotiate. The negotiation window in November was missed. Its unlikely for now, negotiation is possible, we would be wise to perhaps start talking about it, America has discussed that negotiations are probably the o ly way to end this.
First, NATO, basically the us puppet, expanded eastward after Clinton promised not to, after they were assured it would not happen, russia sees this as threatening its core interests:
Quote:
To the contrary, the first principal initiative of the Clinton administration toward Europe was the Partnership for Peace, an attempt to develop relationships with and strengthen the states of the former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. States were offered a menu of potential political and military arrangements, including regular consultations, educational opportunities, and extensive training and exercising. The intention was to professionalize and Westernize their military establishments while offering these countries a degree of reassurance—and doing all this in a manner designed to reduce the chance of a hostile Russian reaction.
Yet less than one year after launching the Partnership for Peace, the Clinton administration, with little debate or public preparation, introduced the goal of NATO expansion.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/enlarging-nato-a-questionable-idea-whose-time-has-come/%3famp
Quote:
But few have been asking why the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) would want to move east in the first place. What was once a Cold War security pact has become a 21st-century organization with global military commitments and ever more member countries from Eastern Europe. Members of the alliance didn’t always foresee its expansion and, three decades ago, some of America’s most renowned foreign policy thinkers argued that NATO should be nowhere near Ukraine.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion
We speak to former Bernie Sanders foreign policy adviser Matt Duss, now a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst who specialized in the Soviet Union. “Everyone understands that at some point there will need to be a negotiation to bring this war to a close, but I think the tension within the progressive community comes to when and how that diplomacy actually takes place,” says Duss. McGovern stressest that U.S. policymakers must understand Russia’s motivations, saying Russia sees the eastward expansion of NATO as threatening its core interests akin to how the United States viewed the Cuban Missile Crisis in the 1960s
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/11/02/matt-duss-and-ray-mcgovern-debate-u-s-policy-on-russia-nato-and-more/
https://news.antiwar.com/2022/02/21/uncovered-document-reveals-soviet-union-was-promised-no-nato-expansion-at-end-of-cold-war/
So let’s Carry On Escalating, until the inevitable conclusion of nuclear annihilation. Is that your ‘solution’?
Stop the war type getting battle fatigue. If you are going to troll my comments at least please, do it properly. You cannot just write off the whole article as gobbledygook. Lame, unintelligent.
The reasons for this whole debacle are many and complex.
I personally will never get anywhere near putin. I have no idea if he will now negotiate. The negotiation window in November was missed. Its unlikely for now, negotiation is possible, we would be wise to perhaps start talking about it, America has discussed that negotiations are probably the o ly way to end this.
First, NATO, basically the us puppet, expanded eastward after Clinton promised not to, after they were assured it would not happen, russia sees this as threatening its core interests:
Quote:
To the contrary, the first principal initiative of the Clinton administration toward Europe was the Partnership for Peace, an attempt to develop relationships with and strengthen the states of the former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. States were offered a menu of potential political and military arrangements, including regular consultations, educational opportunities, and extensive training and exercising. The intention was to professionalize and Westernize their military establishments while offering these countries a degree of reassurance—and doing all this in a manner designed to reduce the chance of a hostile Russian reaction.
Yet less than one year after launching the Partnership for Peace, the Clinton administration, with little debate or public preparation, introduced the goal of NATO expansion.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/enlarging-nato-a-questionable-idea-whose-time-has-come/%3famp
Quote:
But few have been asking why the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) would want to move east in the first place. What was once a Cold War security pact has become a 21st-century organization with global military commitments and ever more member countries from Eastern Europe. Members of the alliance didn’t always foresee its expansion and, three decades ago, some of America’s most renowned foreign policy thinkers argued that NATO should be nowhere near Ukraine.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/22900113/nato-ukraine-russia-crisis-clinton-expansion
We speak to former Bernie Sanders foreign policy adviser Matt Duss, now a visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst who specialized in the Soviet Union. “Everyone understands that at some point there will need to be a negotiation to bring this war to a close, but I think the tension within the progressive community comes to when and how that diplomacy actually takes place,” says Duss. McGovern stressest that U.S. policymakers must understand Russia’s motivations, saying Russia sees the eastward expansion of NATO as threatening its core interests akin to how the United States viewed the Cuban Missile Crisis in the 1960s
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/11/02/matt-duss-and-ray-mcgovern-debate-u-s-policy-on-russia-nato-and-more/
https://news.antiwar.com/2022/02/21/uncovered-document-reveals-soviet-union-was-promised-no-nato-expansion-at-end-of-cold-war/
So let’s Carry On Escalating, until the inevitable conclusion of nuclear annihilation. Is that your ‘solution’?
1914 & 1939, third time lucky Ms Emery.
Unfortunately ‘peoples’ that have endured years, if not centuries of bondage, tend to behave somewhat irresponsibly when ‘ freedom’ arrives. For example Serbia in 1914, Poland in 1939 and now the Ukraine over the Crimea.
This state of affairs, coupled with all this Gender and BLM nonsense strikes me as rather decadent and there is a distinct whiff of Weimar in the air!
The problem is, Russia is an inherently “Failure-Oriented Civilization.”
At particular times, it adopts a popular western model. But not being part of the West, immediately, ossifies, and then eventually collapses.
This is just the latest instance in its 800 years of failure.
You can’t change it–unless you change the nature of Russian culture.
Completely.
The article is almost complete gobbledygook. Remind me, did NATO invade Russia? Strange how Stop the War types think you could somehow negotiate with Putin when he doesn’t want to negotiate and lies all the time anyway.
I think this is one of the best and most important articles I have read here. I think it is important people understand the reality of what they are calling for when they call for more and more weapons.
‘The question now is whether the West should allow itself to be entrapped into that war and jeopardise the fate of the entire world in doing so.’
More people need to wake up to this reality.
. ‘Such a maximalist desire for “complete victory” is not only highly attritional and suggestive of yet another endless war, but it is also reckless; its very success could trigger a nuclear holocaust.’
Bleak reality.
‘ The West has indeed wounded Russia; now it must decide if it wants to let this wound fester and conflagrate the entire world’
We need to step back from the precipice.
DIPLOMACY NOW. NO NATO WAR.
A very interesting but overly pedantic explanation. It could be broken down much more easily and with less verbosity. Using clever words and phrases does not make the points more intelligent.
The question about smaller nations pulling NATO and the US stance into their regional interests is genuinely interesting as is the comment about the fear the US has about an alliance between Germany and Russia.
What is missing however is any narrative about the growth of animosity by totalitarian regimes, namely China and Russia, to the West.
Therefore this comes across as is a very one sided argument that implies that the US is responsible and that Russia has been a supine antagonist…that is clearly revisionist none sense. The true reality is that there has emerged a reality…that already existed…that those powers despise the West and see it as a natural enemy and that both these powers are controlled by despotic and ruthless individuals and establishments that see Western human rights and freedoms as a weakness and an existential threat to their power base.
Of course he is right about finding a solution and the stalemate and of the disastrous effects of NATO getting too involved.
But then again every successful negotiation needs to have a threat behind it…that was what the US got so disastrously wrong it it’s withdrawal from Afghanistan. The West needs to hold its nerve whilst building a realistic peace deal with Zelensky and his more radical supporters…that is the urgency.
A very interesting but overly pedantic explanation. It could be broken down much more easily and with less verbosity. Using clever words and phrases does not make the points more intelligent.
The question about smaller nations pulling NATO and the US stance into their regional interests is genuinely interesting as is the comment about the fear the US has about an alliance between Germany and Russia.
What is missing however is any narrative about the growth of animosity by totalitarian regimes, namely China and Russia, to the West.
Therefore this comes across as is a very one sided argument that implies that the US is responsible and that Russia has been a supine antagonist…that is clearly revisionist none sense. The true reality is that there has emerged a reality…that already existed…that those powers despise the West and see it as a natural enemy and that both these powers are controlled by despotic and ruthless individuals and establishments that see Western human rights and freedoms as a weakness and an existential threat to their power base.
Of course he is right about finding a solution and the stalemate and of the disastrous effects of NATO getting too involved.
But then again every successful negotiation needs to have a threat behind it…that was what the US got so disastrously wrong it it’s withdrawal from Afghanistan. The West needs to hold its nerve whilst building a realistic peace deal with Zelensky and his more radical supporters…that is the urgency.
It sounds like it is the US and NATO who need the off-ramp. The US and NATO have been escalating since NATO expansion beyond the promised boundaries began, and ratcheted up further notches with the US-led coup 2014, the civil war in Donbas, and the West’s refusal to implement the Minsk Accords despite the Accords being binding in international law.
Once again, a Neocon cunning plan has come a cropper, and once again, the US are readying to walk away from the mayhem they have created, leaving devastation in their wake.
After what the Ukrainians did to the Donbas for 8 years, not to speak of the Odessa Massacre, a treacherous American withdrawal would be about what they deserve.
After what the Ukrainians did to the Donbas for 8 years, not to speak of the Odessa Massacre, a treacherous American withdrawal would be about what they deserve.
It sounds like it is the US and NATO who need the off-ramp. The US and NATO have been escalating since NATO expansion beyond the promised boundaries began, and ratcheted up further notches with the US-led coup 2014, the civil war in Donbas, and the West’s refusal to implement the Minsk Accords despite the Accords being binding in international law.
Once again, a Neocon cunning plan has come a cropper, and once again, the US are readying to walk away from the mayhem they have created, leaving devastation in their wake.
Ukraine does not have a ‘desire for regional clout’. It has expressed no desire to annex Russian territory or steal Russian assets or to control the Russian government. What it desires is to secure its borders.
Ukraine does not have a ‘desire for regional clout’. It has expressed no desire to annex Russian territory or steal Russian assets or to control the Russian government. What it desires is to secure its borders.
“Thankfully, there are early signs that President Biden and at least some of his advisors, including the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley, have sensed this dreadful reality and its potentially dangerous fallout, and are now beginning to speak of the need for negotiations”
Guess I have missed these “early signs” of any desired peace negotiations from this administration! Instead, I keep hearing that we will stand with Ukraine as long as it takes, whatever the “it” is.
Putin doesn’t want to negotiation and even if he said he did you couldn’t believe a word he says
Does not want — I think so too. He smells his victory as well as the US brass smells another defeat. This is very very dangerous.
As for ‘believing’ it goes both ways. After recent Merkel revelations — do you think Putin would believe a word from NATO? He is whatever you can call him but not an idiot. So it’s like Roosevelt-Stalin situation. High politics in other words.
Does not want — I think so too. He smells his victory as well as the US brass smells another defeat. This is very very dangerous.
As for ‘believing’ it goes both ways. After recent Merkel revelations — do you think Putin would believe a word from NATO? He is whatever you can call him but not an idiot. So it’s like Roosevelt-Stalin situation. High politics in other words.
Putin doesn’t want to negotiation and even if he said he did you couldn’t believe a word he says
“Thankfully, there are early signs that President Biden and at least some of his advisors, including the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley, have sensed this dreadful reality and its potentially dangerous fallout, and are now beginning to speak of the need for negotiations”
Guess I have missed these “early signs” of any desired peace negotiations from this administration! Instead, I keep hearing that we will stand with Ukraine as long as it takes, whatever the “it” is.
Borders of a sovereign country were breached through military force, and it must be responded to. All the rest, including the study you helped authored is no more than a geopolitical claptrap.
The question is: What should that response be?
As of now, the West has responded by blocking any peace efforts, and actively agitating protracted conflict, so as to bleed out our old enemy Russia in a (fairly blatantly obvious) proxy war.
I would prefer if we applied pressure to bring both sides to the negotiating table, but that won’t happen because the money has already started flowing, and lining the pockets of those in power. So many, many more Ukrainians and Russians will die, and then at some point it will end with a negotiation, and by that time there will be a range of new billionaires, and most of Ukraine’s farmland, infrastructure and resources will be in the hands of major multinationals. That process already started in 2014; BlackRock already own nearly a third of all Ukraine’e productive agri-land, thanks to loan conditions imposed by the IMF, that were accepted by the US-approved government, following EuroMaidan.
There are valid and respectable arguments against my position (of seeking a negotiated peace). But I have little respect for the ones that cite “democracy” as the reason to continue escalating proxy wars until the country is so flattened (physically and financially) that there’s nothing left to save. Our leaders are not interested in the health of “democracy” in Ukraine, anymore than they’re interested in the health of democracy here at home [ie, not at all]. Put another way: They’re not interested in the health of “democracy” in Ukraine, anymore than they were interested in the leaving a flourishing and stable democracy in Iraq, or Libya, or Afghanistan, etc.
I think there is an argument to be had around whether NATO should be trying to protect the sovereign territory of non-NATO countries, and on that point there are good arguments for and against. But I do wish that we would all start from an honest baseline, which is that this is not just a regional territorial squabble over land, it is about direct US control of larger and larger swathes of the world, and it’s about money and resources (at least once it got going, but arguably since 2014).
No – it is more than anything else about direct Russian control of larger swathes of the world. For the rest – which peace offer by Russia has the West blocked? The only ‘offer’ I am aware of is for Ukraine to surrender to Russia. Which Ukraine – not the West – has chosen to refuse. Why should we pressure Ukraine to surrender – becasue I do not see Russia succumbing to pressure so far?
.
I was referring to the Russian request for a new treaty discussion, prior to their invasion.
I’m suggesting we pressure both sides to negotiate, not just one side. It’s crucial that both sides can be able to claim “a win”. Russia cannot be seen to lose, or they could go nuclear. Ukraine cannot be seen to lose, or it’s a de-facto endorsement of the use of force to gain territory. Sticking my neck out, I had suggested:
“Off ramps might be proposition of a formal agreement of no NATO in Ukraine …but in return for this commitment to NATO-neutrality, Ukraine retains technical control over the land they had at the start, and the contentious / volatile regions (Crimea, Donbas etc) having a UN peacekeeping force for an agreed number of years, to make sure the two sides don’t begin shelling each other again?”
I know there are many here who think that Putin is trying to recreate the Soviet Union, and wants to invade mainland Europe and conquer it all. I seriously don’t think this is the case, but even if it was, it’s way, way beyond their capability. Truly, ridiculously so. The Russians aren’t communists anymore, they’re operating a corporatist oligarchy, not a giant global-communist-empire programme. I think for Russia, the issue revolves around NATO (meaning the US) on their border. Which is what they keep on telling us, over and over.
They’ve been saying, for years and years, “No NATO in Ukraine. Red Line!”…and we go “Pfft, I’m sure they don’t really mean it. What about just a little bit of NATO in Ukraine. What about just a little mini coup, let’s do that, see what happens. Ok what about some biolabs, and a pro-US regime… ooh, this is fun! You know what, lets train up their troops too, I’m sure the Russians are just bluffing…”
I notice that Putin literally marched his troops out to the border months in advance, during the period where he was giving speeches and trying to engage Washington re a new treaty (clarifying, ‘No NATO in Ukraine’). He was making a show to back up his words. He was going “Look, do you see this, I’m not bluffing. These are my troops, you see? …Ok they’re on the border now, you should take me seriously!”.
What’s done is done, we can’t go back in time. But I think it’s odd that we still pretend we don’t know what the issues are, or what Russia wants. I think we do, they’ve been telling us relentlessly. So wouldn’t it be wise to use that as a basis for negotiation? — I think we know exactly what Russia wants, but we have chosen a proxy war instead. That’s just what it looks like, to me.
Regrettably, I really do not think this could fly. Looking back at the ‘request for a treaty discussion‘ one notes it included a demand that NATO should withdraw troops and weapons from all countries that had entered after 1997, including Poland, and not hold exercises there without prior Russian approval. This was interpreted, quite reasonably, as “an attempt to formalise a new Russian sphere of influence over eastern Europe“. Further, publication of the demands suggested that they were known to be unacceptable and not intended as a constructive proposal. Besides, the likelihood of NATO accepting Ukraine as a member while it had an active military dispute with Russia in Crimea and the Donbas was surely zero. None of this suggests that simply keeping Ukraine out of NATO would be enough to satisfy Russia.
Besides, what do you mean by ‘technical control of the lands they had at the start’? That the two sides move back to the pre-war borders, giving them official approval, and send in UN peacekeepers? Why should either side accept that?
I still think that the best interpretation is that Russia wants to restore most of the territorial control they had in the Warsaw Pact days, and that only the threat of credible military resistance will stop them. Quite apart from anything else: As long as Russia holds TransDnistria, are they really going to accept that Ukraine denies them a land connection there? As for motives? New countries to plunder might be part of it, but surely the main motivation is that Russia wants to get back to its ‘natural’ state as a world power. It is a lot easier to hold together a multinational empire with a wonky economy if you can have the pride of being a superpower.
Yep, I definitely take your points. It’s possible that it is as you say, and Russia wants to control a whole lot more than just Ukraine. [If that’s true though, it’s a delusional wish and one they could not possibly pull off, they don’t have the military capacity to take control of all the post ’97 NATO nations].
Personally, I think the issues are kind of obvious. Over time we have encircled Russia, and since 2014 we’ve taken quite brazen steps to take control of Ukraine. NATO expansion, in violation of our agreements, made them extremely angry. But Ukraine, this is beyond anger for them, this is existential — firstly because they consider Ukraine like a cousin nation, due to the number of Russian families with relatives in Ukraine (and vice versa), but secondly because of the vital trade route access.
Their concern is that they’re being deliberately encircled and destabilised by the west, who are now coming after their final red line. That is true. That’s exactly what we’re doing. We’re doing it very blatantly. A lot of commenters here will approve of that, for various reasons. I personally don’t think what we are doing is wise, and I also think it’s dangerously, provocatively hypocritical to be doing this right off the back of a series of coups and fake wars initiated by us, all over the globe, that have wrecked the middle east and smashed Libya, causing a flood of illegal immigration into Europe that will forever change the continent’s culture. I think personally that the people driving this (largely the US deep state actors) are deeply arrogant and unwise, and don’t grasp how other rising challenger powers are viewing our increasingly clumsy and brazen coups and actions. Far from shoring up unipolarity, I think we are actually forcing multipolarity to emerge even faster. Just my two cents.
I take your point about the treaty proposition, but again I think this is an area where a bit of ‘realpolitik’ could be applied. This is their *opening offer*. They know how treaty negotiation works, and so do we. They make an offer, we say no to most of it, then both sides argue back and forth and settle with a compromise. Did we expect the opening offer to be exactly what we hope the end agreement would be? The fact that they fielded an offer means they wanted a deal, not a war.
We seem to be wilfully misunderstanding Russia, for some sort of performative reason. From their perspective they’ve been really clear, and it’s obvious that the Ukraine/NATO situation would never, ever be tolerated in reverse (true). Having said that, Russians will tell you plainly that they tolerate the ruling class and the effective oligarchy because largely the modern Russian state leaves people alone. This is their social contract. Now that increasing numbers of Russian boys are being called up to war, this contract is in jeopardy. Putin knows that, and we know that, it’s exactly why we are trying to block any peace talks. I do think we’re not being honest about what that means for Ukraine. It means that the west is knowingly going to allow Ukraine to be smashed and looted, and her people killed in vast numbers, in order to try for a regime change in Russia. And we’re going to asset strip the country while we bleed out Russia (that’s already begun, and is now ramping up noticeably). I would like to hear people argue honestly on that basis. Because that seems to be the reality here, no?
OK, I’ll accept that you are sincere, but it does not hold together.
If you want an actual negotiation, you do not make a public opening offer that is totally unacceptable and humiliating to the other side. You make that offer in private and see where it brings you. Whatever unlikely compromise might be available, the west could never publicly accept to start negotiations based on a proposal to break up NATO and hand over Eastern Europe to Russia.
The West did not break Libya and the Middle East – they were broken to start with. Libya and Syria were both rebelling against bloodstained dictators, with Ghadaffi on the point of taking a bloody revenge on rebellious Benghazi when the West intervened. Iraq was yet another bloody dictatorship, with two devastating wars to Saddam Husseins credit already. The Iraq invasion was still wrong – I even marched against it, and I never march – and the US invasion obviously made things worse, but then they might have got worse without help too.
The West is not blocking any peace talks. Russia is not offering peace. Ukraine is not offering peace. The West is refusing to force Ukraine to surrender, but that is really not the same thing.
If you have a lot of countries that are unstable dictatorships, it is true enough that dangling the prospect of democracy and ethnic self-determination (selfishly or not) is destabilising. We actually think that Putin’s regime is neither good nor legitimate, and that is indeed provocative – but it is what we think. Trouble is, that in order to keep the situation stable you would have to side with the dictators. More specifically, you would have to actively go against the colour revolutions in Ukraine and Syria, and side with Putin and Assad for the sake of stability. I am open to the argument that it might have caused fewer casualties if we had backed Ghadaffi and Assad and helped them brutally suppress their rebellions, or actively supported Russia’s imperial ambitions. But I will only listen to someone who would argue openly and convincingly that supporting dictatorships for peace is the best course of action. Do you volunteer?
As for Russia, my take would be that they feel entitled to the kind of power and spheres of influence that they had in the Warsaw Pact days. They have lost that – humiliatingly – and they demand it back. And the West might be willing to make some kind of deal, but we refuse to treat them as one of two equal world powers based on the much diminished strength they have today. The West may not have played this well, but we would never have agreed to give them what they feel they deserve. More specifically, I feel Russia will not rest satisfied with anything less than effective control over Belarus, Ukraine, and the Baltic States – and would resentfully be demanding more (like neutral buffer states in Eastern Europe) even beyond that. And whatever the Russians think, the Ukrainians and Baltics clearly do not consider Russia a Cousin nation. In each case Russia would have the option of a quick fait accompli invasion, and relying on its nukes to deter retaliation, unless they were convinced we actually meant it when we said no. So, are you wiling to trade away the freedom of the Ukrainians and Baltics, for the sake of peace? And how do you propose to guarantee that Russia will not keep threatening war to achieve even more objectives (as others have done before them)? There is a reason that appeasement got such a dirty name. This situation is certainly awful, but I can see worse alternatives than trying to help Ukraine maintain its independence – while weakening Russia as much as possible before we get to round two. What is your proposal?
I tend to disagree. Negotiations is a bargain of a sort. You ask more, then you meet somewhere in the middle. And you absolutely wrong that the West doesn’t do that. Just last month our own Mr Blinken made an offer to Mr Lavrov asking “get back to Feb 22 line and we’ll lift some sanctions [and let our Zelenski negotiate]”. It was exactly an example of the starting point which has no chance to fly.
Indeed – from which I conclude that Blinken was not serious about starting negotiations now, just like the Russians were not a year ago. If either had hoped to get an actual result they would have made their proposal privately, possibly through some deniable intermediate.
Rasmus, I just wanted to say, thanks for your comment, which is very detailed and moves onto a number of other important issues.
I will post later in the week; for context, my building’s water & heat has gone down and I’ve started a busy work week without running water (GAH!). Chaos on stilts.
A lot I don’t agree with in there, but I will be delighted to respond to those points properly when I have time, and I want to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to lay out your points clearly. Great conversation, where we are actually get at the nub of why we disagree.
Chat soon, JJ.
Rasmus, I just wanted to say, thanks for your comment, which is very detailed and moves onto a number of other important issues.
I will post later in the week; for context, my building’s water & heat has gone down and I’ve started a busy work week without running water (GAH!). Chaos on stilts.
A lot I don’t agree with in there, but I will be delighted to respond to those points properly when I have time, and I want to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to lay out your points clearly. Great conversation, where we are actually get at the nub of why we disagree.
Chat soon, JJ.
Indeed – from which I conclude that Blinken was not serious about starting negotiations now, just like the Russians were not a year ago. If either had hoped to get an actual result they would have made their proposal privately, possibly through some deniable intermediate.
I tend to disagree. Negotiations is a bargain of a sort. You ask more, then you meet somewhere in the middle. And you absolutely wrong that the West doesn’t do that. Just last month our own Mr Blinken made an offer to Mr Lavrov asking “get back to Feb 22 line and we’ll lift some sanctions [and let our Zelenski negotiate]”. It was exactly an example of the starting point which has no chance to fly.
OK, I’ll accept that you are sincere, but it does not hold together.
If you want an actual negotiation, you do not make a public opening offer that is totally unacceptable and humiliating to the other side. You make that offer in private and see where it brings you. Whatever unlikely compromise might be available, the west could never publicly accept to start negotiations based on a proposal to break up NATO and hand over Eastern Europe to Russia.
The West did not break Libya and the Middle East – they were broken to start with. Libya and Syria were both rebelling against bloodstained dictators, with Ghadaffi on the point of taking a bloody revenge on rebellious Benghazi when the West intervened. Iraq was yet another bloody dictatorship, with two devastating wars to Saddam Husseins credit already. The Iraq invasion was still wrong – I even marched against it, and I never march – and the US invasion obviously made things worse, but then they might have got worse without help too.
The West is not blocking any peace talks. Russia is not offering peace. Ukraine is not offering peace. The West is refusing to force Ukraine to surrender, but that is really not the same thing.
If you have a lot of countries that are unstable dictatorships, it is true enough that dangling the prospect of democracy and ethnic self-determination (selfishly or not) is destabilising. We actually think that Putin’s regime is neither good nor legitimate, and that is indeed provocative – but it is what we think. Trouble is, that in order to keep the situation stable you would have to side with the dictators. More specifically, you would have to actively go against the colour revolutions in Ukraine and Syria, and side with Putin and Assad for the sake of stability. I am open to the argument that it might have caused fewer casualties if we had backed Ghadaffi and Assad and helped them brutally suppress their rebellions, or actively supported Russia’s imperial ambitions. But I will only listen to someone who would argue openly and convincingly that supporting dictatorships for peace is the best course of action. Do you volunteer?
As for Russia, my take would be that they feel entitled to the kind of power and spheres of influence that they had in the Warsaw Pact days. They have lost that – humiliatingly – and they demand it back. And the West might be willing to make some kind of deal, but we refuse to treat them as one of two equal world powers based on the much diminished strength they have today. The West may not have played this well, but we would never have agreed to give them what they feel they deserve. More specifically, I feel Russia will not rest satisfied with anything less than effective control over Belarus, Ukraine, and the Baltic States – and would resentfully be demanding more (like neutral buffer states in Eastern Europe) even beyond that. And whatever the Russians think, the Ukrainians and Baltics clearly do not consider Russia a Cousin nation. In each case Russia would have the option of a quick fait accompli invasion, and relying on its nukes to deter retaliation, unless they were convinced we actually meant it when we said no. So, are you wiling to trade away the freedom of the Ukrainians and Baltics, for the sake of peace? And how do you propose to guarantee that Russia will not keep threatening war to achieve even more objectives (as others have done before them)? There is a reason that appeasement got such a dirty name. This situation is certainly awful, but I can see worse alternatives than trying to help Ukraine maintain its independence – while weakening Russia as much as possible before we get to round two. What is your proposal?
Yep, I definitely take your points. It’s possible that it is as you say, and Russia wants to control a whole lot more than just Ukraine. [If that’s true though, it’s a delusional wish and one they could not possibly pull off, they don’t have the military capacity to take control of all the post ’97 NATO nations].
Personally, I think the issues are kind of obvious. Over time we have encircled Russia, and since 2014 we’ve taken quite brazen steps to take control of Ukraine. NATO expansion, in violation of our agreements, made them extremely angry. But Ukraine, this is beyond anger for them, this is existential — firstly because they consider Ukraine like a cousin nation, due to the number of Russian families with relatives in Ukraine (and vice versa), but secondly because of the vital trade route access.
Their concern is that they’re being deliberately encircled and destabilised by the west, who are now coming after their final red line. That is true. That’s exactly what we’re doing. We’re doing it very blatantly. A lot of commenters here will approve of that, for various reasons. I personally don’t think what we are doing is wise, and I also think it’s dangerously, provocatively hypocritical to be doing this right off the back of a series of coups and fake wars initiated by us, all over the globe, that have wrecked the middle east and smashed Libya, causing a flood of illegal immigration into Europe that will forever change the continent’s culture. I think personally that the people driving this (largely the US deep state actors) are deeply arrogant and unwise, and don’t grasp how other rising challenger powers are viewing our increasingly clumsy and brazen coups and actions. Far from shoring up unipolarity, I think we are actually forcing multipolarity to emerge even faster. Just my two cents.
I take your point about the treaty proposition, but again I think this is an area where a bit of ‘realpolitik’ could be applied. This is their *opening offer*. They know how treaty negotiation works, and so do we. They make an offer, we say no to most of it, then both sides argue back and forth and settle with a compromise. Did we expect the opening offer to be exactly what we hope the end agreement would be? The fact that they fielded an offer means they wanted a deal, not a war.
We seem to be wilfully misunderstanding Russia, for some sort of performative reason. From their perspective they’ve been really clear, and it’s obvious that the Ukraine/NATO situation would never, ever be tolerated in reverse (true). Having said that, Russians will tell you plainly that they tolerate the ruling class and the effective oligarchy because largely the modern Russian state leaves people alone. This is their social contract. Now that increasing numbers of Russian boys are being called up to war, this contract is in jeopardy. Putin knows that, and we know that, it’s exactly why we are trying to block any peace talks. I do think we’re not being honest about what that means for Ukraine. It means that the west is knowingly going to allow Ukraine to be smashed and looted, and her people killed in vast numbers, in order to try for a regime change in Russia. And we’re going to asset strip the country while we bleed out Russia (that’s already begun, and is now ramping up noticeably). I would like to hear people argue honestly on that basis. Because that seems to be the reality here, no?
You mean when Putin marched out his troupes and said it was nonsense for anyone to believe he was going to invade Ukraine?
I got a laugh at the homonym “troupes” here. If only it was purely a performance.
I agree with the thrust of your rhetorical question and have one of my own for those who claim the US/NATO are obstructing peace all by their hegemonic selves:
When you talk up Putin’s willingness to negotiate or rest content with Concession A, B, C, or X: Do you even believe that yourself?
I got a laugh at the homonym “troupes” here. If only it was purely a performance.
I agree with the thrust of your rhetorical question and have one of my own for those who claim the US/NATO are obstructing peace all by their hegemonic selves:
When you talk up Putin’s willingness to negotiate or rest content with Concession A, B, C, or X: Do you even believe that yourself?
Regrettably, I really do not think this could fly. Looking back at the ‘request for a treaty discussion‘ one notes it included a demand that NATO should withdraw troops and weapons from all countries that had entered after 1997, including Poland, and not hold exercises there without prior Russian approval. This was interpreted, quite reasonably, as “an attempt to formalise a new Russian sphere of influence over eastern Europe“. Further, publication of the demands suggested that they were known to be unacceptable and not intended as a constructive proposal. Besides, the likelihood of NATO accepting Ukraine as a member while it had an active military dispute with Russia in Crimea and the Donbas was surely zero. None of this suggests that simply keeping Ukraine out of NATO would be enough to satisfy Russia.
Besides, what do you mean by ‘technical control of the lands they had at the start’? That the two sides move back to the pre-war borders, giving them official approval, and send in UN peacekeepers? Why should either side accept that?
I still think that the best interpretation is that Russia wants to restore most of the territorial control they had in the Warsaw Pact days, and that only the threat of credible military resistance will stop them. Quite apart from anything else: As long as Russia holds TransDnistria, are they really going to accept that Ukraine denies them a land connection there? As for motives? New countries to plunder might be part of it, but surely the main motivation is that Russia wants to get back to its ‘natural’ state as a world power. It is a lot easier to hold together a multinational empire with a wonky economy if you can have the pride of being a superpower.
You mean when Putin marched out his troupes and said it was nonsense for anyone to believe he was going to invade Ukraine?
.
I was referring to the Russian request for a new treaty discussion, prior to their invasion.
I’m suggesting we pressure both sides to negotiate, not just one side. It’s crucial that both sides can be able to claim “a win”. Russia cannot be seen to lose, or they could go nuclear. Ukraine cannot be seen to lose, or it’s a de-facto endorsement of the use of force to gain territory. Sticking my neck out, I had suggested:
“Off ramps might be proposition of a formal agreement of no NATO in Ukraine …but in return for this commitment to NATO-neutrality, Ukraine retains technical control over the land they had at the start, and the contentious / volatile regions (Crimea, Donbas etc) having a UN peacekeeping force for an agreed number of years, to make sure the two sides don’t begin shelling each other again?”
I know there are many here who think that Putin is trying to recreate the Soviet Union, and wants to invade mainland Europe and conquer it all. I seriously don’t think this is the case, but even if it was, it’s way, way beyond their capability. Truly, ridiculously so. The Russians aren’t communists anymore, they’re operating a corporatist oligarchy, not a giant global-communist-empire programme. I think for Russia, the issue revolves around NATO (meaning the US) on their border. Which is what they keep on telling us, over and over.
They’ve been saying, for years and years, “No NATO in Ukraine. Red Line!”…and we go “Pfft, I’m sure they don’t really mean it. What about just a little bit of NATO in Ukraine. What about just a little mini coup, let’s do that, see what happens. Ok what about some biolabs, and a pro-US regime… ooh, this is fun! You know what, lets train up their troops too, I’m sure the Russians are just bluffing…”
I notice that Putin literally marched his troops out to the border months in advance, during the period where he was giving speeches and trying to engage Washington re a new treaty (clarifying, ‘No NATO in Ukraine’). He was making a show to back up his words. He was going “Look, do you see this, I’m not bluffing. These are my troops, you see? …Ok they’re on the border now, you should take me seriously!”.
What’s done is done, we can’t go back in time. But I think it’s odd that we still pretend we don’t know what the issues are, or what Russia wants. I think we do, they’ve been telling us relentlessly. So wouldn’t it be wise to use that as a basis for negotiation? — I think we know exactly what Russia wants, but we have chosen a proxy war instead. That’s just what it looks like, to me.
No – it is more than anything else about direct Russian control of larger swathes of the world. For the rest – which peace offer by Russia has the West blocked? The only ‘offer’ I am aware of is for Ukraine to surrender to Russia. Which Ukraine – not the West – has chosen to refuse. Why should we pressure Ukraine to surrender – becasue I do not see Russia succumbing to pressure so far?
Because it wasnt done by the West. Quite right.
The question is: What should that response be?
As of now, the West has responded by blocking any peace efforts, and actively agitating protracted conflict, so as to bleed out our old enemy Russia in a (fairly blatantly obvious) proxy war.
I would prefer if we applied pressure to bring both sides to the negotiating table, but that won’t happen because the money has already started flowing, and lining the pockets of those in power. So many, many more Ukrainians and Russians will die, and then at some point it will end with a negotiation, and by that time there will be a range of new billionaires, and most of Ukraine’s farmland, infrastructure and resources will be in the hands of major multinationals. That process already started in 2014; BlackRock already own nearly a third of all Ukraine’e productive agri-land, thanks to loan conditions imposed by the IMF, that were accepted by the US-approved government, following EuroMaidan.
There are valid and respectable arguments against my position (of seeking a negotiated peace). But I have little respect for the ones that cite “democracy” as the reason to continue escalating proxy wars until the country is so flattened (physically and financially) that there’s nothing left to save. Our leaders are not interested in the health of “democracy” in Ukraine, anymore than they’re interested in the health of democracy here at home [ie, not at all]. Put another way: They’re not interested in the health of “democracy” in Ukraine, anymore than they were interested in the leaving a flourishing and stable democracy in Iraq, or Libya, or Afghanistan, etc.
I think there is an argument to be had around whether NATO should be trying to protect the sovereign territory of non-NATO countries, and on that point there are good arguments for and against. But I do wish that we would all start from an honest baseline, which is that this is not just a regional territorial squabble over land, it is about direct US control of larger and larger swathes of the world, and it’s about money and resources (at least once it got going, but arguably since 2014).
Because it wasnt done by the West. Quite right.
Borders of a sovereign country were breached through military force, and it must be responded to. All the rest, including the study you helped authored is no more than a geopolitical claptrap.
What if it isn’t Ukraine manipulating the US but the US manipulating Ukraine. What if the US intended all along to escalate the war and keep it stalemated. The war drains Russia of resources, keeps them occupied, and hurts their international reputation. It is hard to believe that Ukraine is steering the West and more likely that they are doing our bidding. We want to give them whatever they want, we always intended to, we just want it to look like we are reluctant, so we seem like saviors instead of aggressors. The US could have forced the Ukrainians to negotiate before the whole thing began and prevented the invasion, but we didn’t, we goaded Russian into it. To say we have no strategic interest in seeing Russia bogged down in Ukraine is just bonkers. It is the West that is steering Ukrainian men, women and children to their deaths for some grand geopolitical strategy to topple Putin. This essay seems to be just a long-winded way of saying the West, led by Biden, is stupidly stumbling toward armageddon.
Have you ever considered – just hypothetically – that Ukrainians might be capable of making choices and taking decisions on their own – and not just helpless dupes to American manipulation?
Oh, I believe the Ukrainians want their freedom, and that is what makes them helpless dupes of American manipulation.
lets see who the Americans didn’t help and manipulate then. They didn’t help the Chechens when Putin invaded.
They didn’t help the the Georgeans.
They didn’t help the Moldovans.
They didn’t help the Syrians really (Asad is still there because of Putin).
They are not helping the Iranian people.
Americans not very good at this manipulation “lark” really..
Yeah, Obama really tried to help the Syrians.
So they should help the Iranians – the way they helped the Iraqis and Afghans (and the Viet Namese)?
Maybe it’s a feature that they aren’t ‘helping’ every Tom, d**k and Harry – it may have worked with Germany and Japan, but not so much in other cases.
Yeah, Obama really tried to help the Syrians.
So they should help the Iranians – the way they helped the Iraqis and Afghans (and the Viet Namese)?
Maybe it’s a feature that they aren’t ‘helping’ every Tom, d**k and Harry – it may have worked with Germany and Japan, but not so much in other cases.
lets see who the Americans didn’t help and manipulate then. They didn’t help the Chechens when Putin invaded.
They didn’t help the the Georgeans.
They didn’t help the Moldovans.
They didn’t help the Syrians really (Asad is still there because of Putin).
They are not helping the Iranian people.
Americans not very good at this manipulation “lark” really..
Oh, I believe the Ukrainians want their freedom, and that is what makes them helpless dupes of American manipulation.
Have you ever considered – just hypothetically – that Ukrainians might be capable of making choices and taking decisions on their own – and not just helpless dupes to American manipulation?
What if it isn’t Ukraine manipulating the US but the US manipulating Ukraine. What if the US intended all along to escalate the war and keep it stalemated. The war drains Russia of resources, keeps them occupied, and hurts their international reputation. It is hard to believe that Ukraine is steering the West and more likely that they are doing our bidding. We want to give them whatever they want, we always intended to, we just want it to look like we are reluctant, so we seem like saviors instead of aggressors. The US could have forced the Ukrainians to negotiate before the whole thing began and prevented the invasion, but we didn’t, we goaded Russian into it. To say we have no strategic interest in seeing Russia bogged down in Ukraine is just bonkers. It is the West that is steering Ukrainian men, women and children to their deaths for some grand geopolitical strategy to topple Putin. This essay seems to be just a long-winded way of saying the West, led by Biden, is stupidly stumbling toward armageddon.
Bullshit. This writer is too much in love with his cleverness and he is creating castles in the air. The Ukrainians were invaded. They are fighting back. That simple.
Quite. But he’s not clever. He just think he is.
..that simple for them maybe, but not so simple for us.
So perhaps you’d like to propose a ‘simple’ solution to the ‘simple’ problem?
Quite. But he’s not clever. He just think he is.
..that simple for them maybe, but not so simple for us.
So perhaps you’d like to propose a ‘simple’ solution to the ‘simple’ problem?
Bullshit. This writer is too much in love with his cleverness and he is creating castles in the air. The Ukrainians were invaded. They are fighting back. That simple.
I keep hearing people talk about off ramps. What is the off ramp? Either Russia gets to keep territory/ or not. I can’t see offering up Ukrainian neutrality will be sufficient. Nato presence in the Baltic states is a done deal – and can’t be undone. Where is the off ramp?
Off ramps might be a new treaty discussion (as Russia sought prior to invasion, so we know they want that)?
Off ramps might be proposition of a formal agreement of no NATO in Ukraine …but in return for this commitment to NATO-neutrality, Ukraine retains technical control over the land they had at the start, and the contentious / volatile regions (Crimea, Donbas etc) having a UN peacekeeping force for an agreed number of years, to make sure the two sides don’t begin shelling each other again?
That’s a good/reasonable answer…although I can’t see Putin being able to agree to technical control or giving up Donbas let alone Crimea…without losing power. The off ramp seems to be option for a post-Putin hardline regime but not the Kremlin doves such as they are..
UN peacekeepers in Crimea ?
Is this some kind of joke.
Crimea has been at peace for the past 8 year. I know. I’ve been there.
I’m not sure about that. I have clients who are Russian (and Ukrainian). Putin is aware that the more young Russian lads he sends across the border, the weaker his position. He needs an end to this, but he needs one that he can declare as a ‘win’. [So do Ukraine].
Domestically, he heavily sold the Nazi thing, and the shelling and attacks on Russians and Russian-speakers in the Donbas. He also heavily sold it as a mission of saving their people (under attack by a government that had been corrupted by outside influences etc). Off the back of that, it may be possible for him to sell a UN-mediated retreat. If the zone stayed ‘neutral’ he could declare that he’d achieved his goal of protecting the Russians who were under attack. If Ukraine declared NATO neutrality he could declare that they’d achieved their goal of addressing an existential security issue, and could make hay out the recent purging of Ukrainian oligarchs and officials (inc Kolomoisky) – “the Ukraine govt has now been purged of these dark forces; sucess” kinda thing.
Then on the Ukrainian / NATO side it would probably have to be beefy rhetoric about how “all territory was reclaimed / Russian aggression was pushed all the way out of Ukraine” etc. And they could spin the UN involvement as “making sure Russia never even think of trying this again”.
It potentially is saleable on both sides. Especially in the silo’d modern media environments.
UN peacekeepers in Crimea ?
Is this some kind of joke.
Crimea has been at peace for the past 8 year. I know. I’ve been there.
I’m not sure about that. I have clients who are Russian (and Ukrainian). Putin is aware that the more young Russian lads he sends across the border, the weaker his position. He needs an end to this, but he needs one that he can declare as a ‘win’. [So do Ukraine].
Domestically, he heavily sold the Nazi thing, and the shelling and attacks on Russians and Russian-speakers in the Donbas. He also heavily sold it as a mission of saving their people (under attack by a government that had been corrupted by outside influences etc). Off the back of that, it may be possible for him to sell a UN-mediated retreat. If the zone stayed ‘neutral’ he could declare that he’d achieved his goal of protecting the Russians who were under attack. If Ukraine declared NATO neutrality he could declare that they’d achieved their goal of addressing an existential security issue, and could make hay out the recent purging of Ukrainian oligarchs and officials (inc Kolomoisky) – “the Ukraine govt has now been purged of these dark forces; sucess” kinda thing.
Then on the Ukrainian / NATO side it would probably have to be beefy rhetoric about how “all territory was reclaimed / Russian aggression was pushed all the way out of Ukraine” etc. And they could spin the UN involvement as “making sure Russia never even think of trying this again”.
It potentially is saleable on both sides. Especially in the silo’d modern media environments.
That’s a good/reasonable answer…although I can’t see Putin being able to agree to technical control or giving up Donbas let alone Crimea…without losing power. The off ramp seems to be option for a post-Putin hardline regime but not the Kremlin doves such as they are..
…Where is the off-ramp? That is the worry alright, which is the implication of the article’s analysis. If the West can’t accept anything short of the sort of WW2 victory over Hitler, and the Russians can’t accept any degree of failure to recover their former imperial borders, we are all well and truly doomed.
Off ramps might be a new treaty discussion (as Russia sought prior to invasion, so we know they want that)?
Off ramps might be proposition of a formal agreement of no NATO in Ukraine …but in return for this commitment to NATO-neutrality, Ukraine retains technical control over the land they had at the start, and the contentious / volatile regions (Crimea, Donbas etc) having a UN peacekeeping force for an agreed number of years, to make sure the two sides don’t begin shelling each other again?
…Where is the off-ramp? That is the worry alright, which is the implication of the article’s analysis. If the West can’t accept anything short of the sort of WW2 victory over Hitler, and the Russians can’t accept any degree of failure to recover their former imperial borders, we are all well and truly doomed.
I keep hearing people talk about off ramps. What is the off ramp? Either Russia gets to keep territory/ or not. I can’t see offering up Ukrainian neutrality will be sufficient. Nato presence in the Baltic states is a done deal – and can’t be undone. Where is the off ramp?
This article contains an interesting series of reflections and (mostly) indirect claims, and I found it worthwhile if longer than warranted. What I didn’t love was the heavy use of abstract terms like “ontological” instead of a more direct, impassioned case for peace. As Mr. Fogh gets at above, Moeini’s argumentative approach is a bit coy.
But those who’ve recently complained of a sustained or one-sided jingoistic drumbeat at this website should consider themselves amply or at least adequately compensated by this and several recent articles that are skeptical of US/Western policy in Ukraine.
Without being a crowd-driven weathervane, it seems to me that UnHerd listens to its readership more than most, yet with due editorial discretion. Cheers from San José, CA.
This article contains an interesting series of reflections and (mostly) indirect claims, and I found it worthwhile if longer than warranted. What I didn’t love was the heavy use of abstract terms like “ontological” instead of a more direct, impassioned case for peace. As Mr. Fogh gets at above, Moeini’s argumentative approach is a bit coy.
But those who’ve recently complained of a sustained or one-sided jingoistic drumbeat at this website should consider themselves amply or at least adequately compensated by this and several recent articles that are skeptical of US/Western policy in Ukraine.
Without being a crowd-driven weathervane, it seems to me that UnHerd listens to its readership more than most, yet with due editorial discretion. Cheers from San José, CA.
It is time the question was asked: “Is NATO still a force for good?”
While it balanced the power of the Warsaw Pact countries it was, but now its expansion and American dominance – without the unfettered democratic control of NATO members – it is leading us towards all-out war with China as well as Russia….
..
It is time the question was asked: “Is NATO still a force for good?”
While it balanced the power of the Warsaw Pact countries it was, but now its expansion and American dominance – without the unfettered democratic control of NATO members – it is leading us towards all-out war with China as well as Russia….
..
Surprise! A strong misconception suddenly gives me some hope. Not for Ukraine unfortunately (in my view it’s done) but for the planet. It is rather silly but still widely suggested that Russia eventually wants to grab the Baltics, Finland, something else maybe (Moldva?). Mr Zelenski pushes this idea very hard saying that Ukraine is no less than a global frontline good vs bad. The fact that quite many (politicians, media people) are sucked into that misconception is giving me hope. That means the West and Russia can have a bargain point. Simply put — Russians would agree not to invade further (like they ever wanted to, jeez) and the West accepts that.
Without that there would be nothing Russia would give up. Crimea, Donbas territories, keeping Nuzzy people ruling neighboring country, militarized by NATO — this is just a bunch of fantasies now. That was in the past.
There is a slight problem with that. The deal can only work if Russia convinces everybody else that it is actually going to keep its word. We know from experience that just because someone says that ‘This is the last territorial demand I have to make in Europe‘ that does not necessarily mean that it is true.
But the Russians did “want to invade further”, didn’t they ? They wanted to take Kiev. Please acquaint yourself with the facts here.
Oh. Apologies. I am way over the whole Ukraine affair. Subjective, totally. Invade something after Ukraine, — that’s my point.
Come off it mate. You said “like they ever wanted to, jeez”. Your exact words.
Peter, unfortunately you might be not fully understanding what drives Mr Putin in his quest.
If you drop the unintelligent nonsense of a mad blood-thirsty person you might try to see Mr. Putin reasons for his decisions and well as the military actions. In fact, his hand was forced a few times.
I am not approving any of that sh*t at all, and I am sure it would be possible to find compromises without killing people. I am merely looking for the reasons. If you do the same you would see that Russia has no interest beyond Ukraine and maybe that tiny Russian population enclave in Moldva.
My hope is based on idiocy of the EU politicians seeing a huge angry bear about to swallow the West (according to Mr Zelenski). So, please get scared ASAP and sign a f*cking treaty. Or we all die. You can’t expect Russians to get on their knees. Never happens.
Treaties last as long as one side wants them to last, which in the case of Russia is not usually very long. You may recall them signing a treaty guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty some 30 years ago. Next up it’s the substantial Russian minorities in the Baltic states, then the rest of Finland they failed to take over in 1939/45, then Belorussia when the current Russian puppet dies, etc. etc.
Firstly, memorandum is not a treaty. Secondly, as Ukraine shed out its neutral status and of course as soon as Mr Zelenski said that Ukraine is going for nuclear that agreement became a nonsense.
I see your point, but I am afraid there are not many other options left.
I missed the bit where Zelenskiy said that Ukraine was going to get nuclear weapons – when and where etc?
You can just ignore him; he’s someone who is determined to accept the Russian PR line of the day.
Apply Paine on medicine.
“him”? 🙂 Nice and polite indeed! My dear friend, you might have a chance to hear about the thing called “freedom and democracy”. One of the cornerstones of which is accepting a possibility of sometimes very different opinions. Recommended reading: First Amendment. You are welcome.
“him”? 🙂 Nice and polite indeed! My dear friend, you might have a chance to hear about the thing called “freedom and democracy”. One of the cornerstones of which is accepting a possibility of sometimes very different opinions. Recommended reading: First Amendment. You are welcome.
Munich security conference ’22. Many think it was the last straw.
Well the best I can find is here: https://www.dailywire.com/news/president-zelensky-suggests-ukraine-may-pursue-nuclear-weapons-to-counter-russia-putin-responds
Zelenskiy does not ask for nukes just pointing out that Russia has repudiated its 1994 agreement to respect Ukraine in return for Ukraine giving up nukes. It’s Putin that then tried to spin that into a nuclear threat in order to justify his invasion.
Well the best I can find is here: https://www.dailywire.com/news/president-zelensky-suggests-ukraine-may-pursue-nuclear-weapons-to-counter-russia-putin-responds
Zelenskiy does not ask for nukes just pointing out that Russia has repudiated its 1994 agreement to respect Ukraine in return for Ukraine giving up nukes. It’s Putin that then tried to spin that into a nuclear threat in order to justify his invasion.
You can just ignore him; he’s someone who is determined to accept the Russian PR line of the day.
Apply Paine on medicine.
Munich security conference ’22. Many think it was the last straw.
I missed the bit where Zelenskiy said that Ukraine was going to get nuclear weapons – when and where etc?
Firstly, memorandum is not a treaty. Secondly, as Ukraine shed out its neutral status and of course as soon as Mr Zelenski said that Ukraine is going for nuclear that agreement became a nonsense.
I see your point, but I am afraid there are not many other options left.
Treaties last as long as one side wants them to last, which in the case of Russia is not usually very long. You may recall them signing a treaty guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignty some 30 years ago. Next up it’s the substantial Russian minorities in the Baltic states, then the rest of Finland they failed to take over in 1939/45, then Belorussia when the current Russian puppet dies, etc. etc.
Peter, unfortunately you might be not fully understanding what drives Mr Putin in his quest.
If you drop the unintelligent nonsense of a mad blood-thirsty person you might try to see Mr. Putin reasons for his decisions and well as the military actions. In fact, his hand was forced a few times.
I am not approving any of that sh*t at all, and I am sure it would be possible to find compromises without killing people. I am merely looking for the reasons. If you do the same you would see that Russia has no interest beyond Ukraine and maybe that tiny Russian population enclave in Moldva.
My hope is based on idiocy of the EU politicians seeing a huge angry bear about to swallow the West (according to Mr Zelenski). So, please get scared ASAP and sign a f*cking treaty. Or we all die. You can’t expect Russians to get on their knees. Never happens.
Come off it mate. You said “like they ever wanted to, jeez”. Your exact words.
Oh. Apologies. I am way over the whole Ukraine affair. Subjective, totally. Invade something after Ukraine, — that’s my point.
“Russia would agree not to invade further”. Totally daft; Europe’s been down that road before, and it didn’t end well. See my comment at the top.
Let me remind you that somehow there were no hostilities in Europe for half a century, when BTW the regime in Moscow was much more hostile. So, it’s possible somehow?
What are you suggesting? Fight to the certain death? Get NATO involved and get nuclear by the next year? No thank you, we might be more or less safe in the US, but both of my children live in Europe and I want this sh*t to be stopped NOW.
Perhaps you are forgetting the Russian invasions of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslavakia in 1968.
“Let me remind you that somehow there were no hostilities in Europe for half a century”.
Really ?
How about the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. And Czechoslovakia in 1968 ?
Funnily enough, these all involve Russia invading Eastern Europe …
This war is as much about Putin’s ego as anything else – an old man in a hurry. No one forced him to do what he did.
We have no practical choice but to face down this aggression.
There will be no nuclear escalation. The Russians have threatened this many times and each time a threshold has been passed, they have done nothing.
I said half a century, follow the math. 1968-2018. Oh I forgot bombing Serbia. My bad.
OK, Russian invasion of Georgia then. Does that work for you ?
Georgia started that – even an EU led investigation agreed that.
Georgia started that – even an EU led investigation agreed that.
I assumed that you were talking 1945-1990. If after 1968 then you were forgetting the Balkan wars of c.1990-95, which were rather nasty. Unless you consider the Balkans as not Europe of course.
Yeah, they got distracted in Afghanistan – before their country fell apart.
OK, Russian invasion of Georgia then. Does that work for you ?
I assumed that you were talking 1945-1990. If after 1968 then you were forgetting the Balkan wars of c.1990-95, which were rather nasty. Unless you consider the Balkans as not Europe of course.
Yeah, they got distracted in Afghanistan – before their country fell apart.
I said half a century, follow the math. 1968-2018. Oh I forgot bombing Serbia. My bad.
Treaty, stop this shit NOW. Couldn’t agree more.
Perhaps you are forgetting the Russian invasions of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslavakia in 1968.
“Let me remind you that somehow there were no hostilities in Europe for half a century”.
Really ?
How about the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956. And Czechoslovakia in 1968 ?
Funnily enough, these all involve Russia invading Eastern Europe …
This war is as much about Putin’s ego as anything else – an old man in a hurry. No one forced him to do what he did.
We have no practical choice but to face down this aggression.
There will be no nuclear escalation. The Russians have threatened this many times and each time a threshold has been passed, they have done nothing.
Treaty, stop this shit NOW. Couldn’t agree more.
Let me remind you that somehow there were no hostilities in Europe for half a century, when BTW the regime in Moscow was much more hostile. So, it’s possible somehow?
What are you suggesting? Fight to the certain death? Get NATO involved and get nuclear by the next year? No thank you, we might be more or less safe in the US, but both of my children live in Europe and I want this sh*t to be stopped NOW.
There is a slight problem with that. The deal can only work if Russia convinces everybody else that it is actually going to keep its word. We know from experience that just because someone says that ‘This is the last territorial demand I have to make in Europe‘ that does not necessarily mean that it is true.
But the Russians did “want to invade further”, didn’t they ? They wanted to take Kiev. Please acquaint yourself with the facts here.
“Russia would agree not to invade further”. Totally daft; Europe’s been down that road before, and it didn’t end well. See my comment at the top.
Surprise! A strong misconception suddenly gives me some hope. Not for Ukraine unfortunately (in my view it’s done) but for the planet. It is rather silly but still widely suggested that Russia eventually wants to grab the Baltics, Finland, something else maybe (Moldva?). Mr Zelenski pushes this idea very hard saying that Ukraine is no less than a global frontline good vs bad. The fact that quite many (politicians, media people) are sucked into that misconception is giving me hope. That means the West and Russia can have a bargain point. Simply put — Russians would agree not to invade further (like they ever wanted to, jeez) and the West accepts that.
Without that there would be nothing Russia would give up. Crimea, Donbas territories, keeping Nuzzy people ruling neighboring country, militarized by NATO — this is just a bunch of fantasies now. That was in the past.
That was some sophisticated shilling right there.
That was some sophisticated shilling right there.
Has not America and NATO already achieved its goal – to demonstrate to Russia that an invasion of an ally will come at great cost? I have no idea what is happening here. Why not negotiate a peace deal?
Whether to try and find a peace deal is up to the Ukrainians, not you or me.
We have multiple reports that the US and Britain discouraged the Ukraine from negotiating a peace deal back in June.
We have multiple reports that the US and Britain discouraged the Ukraine from negotiating a peace deal back in June.
Whether to try and find a peace deal is up to the Ukrainians, not you or me.
Has not America and NATO already achieved its goal – to demonstrate to Russia that an invasion of an ally will come at great cost? I have no idea what is happening here. Why not negotiate a peace deal?
I wonder if it is worth counting the number of times the word ontological is used to give this piece a veneer of deep thought. “..the US establishment has worked to destroy any possibility of a Berlin-Moscow axis forming by aligning itself with the Intermarium bloc of countries from the Baltic to the Black Sea, repeatedly opposing (and openly threatening) Nord Stream gas pipelines, and deliberately rebuffing Russian insistence on a neutral Ukraine.”
Eh???? Ukraine surrenderd its nuclear weapons as a PROMISE of neutrality, but did so in return for BROKEN promises that they would recieve from NATO military training and modern weapons systems just in case Russia decided to invade them. With the exception of wanting to repel a possible Russian invasion Ukraine was and is entirely neutral.
If NATO had kept its promises to modernise Ukraines military forces and weapons it is unlikely that that Russia would have tried so blithely to invade them. As a lie-long supporter of nuclear disarmament, but never a pacifist, I have been forced to admit that if Ukraine had not divested its nuclear arsenal it is unlikely that Putin would have invaded.
Now Putin HAS invaded, an action encouraged by the lack of real response to the annexation of Crimea, what should be the response? Go ahead old chap, nothing to do with us. Or help Ukraine resist? Personally I think we should f*****g well stop pussyfooting around and give Ukraine jets, cruise missiles, anything necessary to strike Moscow, the Kremlin directly; because if we don’t not only will Ukraine be overrun, but China will be quite happy to take Taiwan and impose on them what they have done in Hong Kong.
I am not a fan of Western hypocrisy about democracy and ‘freedom’, but compared to what Putin and Xi stand for I know which side I am on. Arta Moeini is on the side of hand wringing fetch the smelling salts Daphne its simply too much to bear dear.
Yes! I’d guess the author might be less inclined to ponder the nature of being if his own life were threatened or home country were under direct attack. I think references to ontology should be capped at one or two for articles that are not, or at least should not be, dominated by philosophical reflection.
And I agree that in matters of life-and-death global import we are often forced to choose the least dangerous hypocrite. I know some will still fill in that blank with an answer I don’t agree with, but pointing out the self-interested or hypocritical actions of one nation or group of nations only establishes that they are human and political, not therefore more wrong than their adversaries.
If the expression Ontological security is too difficult, the obvious remedy is to read up a little on R D. Laing
Yes! I’d guess the author might be less inclined to ponder the nature of being if his own life were threatened or home country were under direct attack. I think references to ontology should be capped at one or two for articles that are not, or at least should not be, dominated by philosophical reflection.
And I agree that in matters of life-and-death global import we are often forced to choose the least dangerous hypocrite. I know some will still fill in that blank with an answer I don’t agree with, but pointing out the self-interested or hypocritical actions of one nation or group of nations only establishes that they are human and political, not therefore more wrong than their adversaries.
If the expression Ontological security is too difficult, the obvious remedy is to read up a little on R D. Laing
I wonder if it is worth counting the number of times the word ontological is used to give this piece a veneer of deep thought. “..the US establishment has worked to destroy any possibility of a Berlin-Moscow axis forming by aligning itself with the Intermarium bloc of countries from the Baltic to the Black Sea, repeatedly opposing (and openly threatening) Nord Stream gas pipelines, and deliberately rebuffing Russian insistence on a neutral Ukraine.”
Eh???? Ukraine surrenderd its nuclear weapons as a PROMISE of neutrality, but did so in return for BROKEN promises that they would recieve from NATO military training and modern weapons systems just in case Russia decided to invade them. With the exception of wanting to repel a possible Russian invasion Ukraine was and is entirely neutral.
If NATO had kept its promises to modernise Ukraines military forces and weapons it is unlikely that that Russia would have tried so blithely to invade them. As a lie-long supporter of nuclear disarmament, but never a pacifist, I have been forced to admit that if Ukraine had not divested its nuclear arsenal it is unlikely that Putin would have invaded.
Now Putin HAS invaded, an action encouraged by the lack of real response to the annexation of Crimea, what should be the response? Go ahead old chap, nothing to do with us. Or help Ukraine resist? Personally I think we should f*****g well stop pussyfooting around and give Ukraine jets, cruise missiles, anything necessary to strike Moscow, the Kremlin directly; because if we don’t not only will Ukraine be overrun, but China will be quite happy to take Taiwan and impose on them what they have done in Hong Kong.
I am not a fan of Western hypocrisy about democracy and ‘freedom’, but compared to what Putin and Xi stand for I know which side I am on. Arta Moeini is on the side of hand wringing fetch the smelling salts Daphne its simply too much to bear dear.
A very interesting exposition of a very complex and controversial subject. Some readers seem to take it to be an opinion piece and criticise is as such, but that misses the point, it asks a question and discusses it.
It brings to mind is that only thirty years ago it seemed to many that there was a real possibility of stability and prosperity to all of Europe from the Urals to Lisbon. Clinton certainly thought so for a time before changing his mind. Gorbachov pointed to Scandinavia as an example of such an order and never changed his mind as far as I know. It seems only too timely to reflect on what exactly prevents our continent to escape from it’s seemingly endless cycle of war and misery
A very interesting exposition of a very complex and controversial subject. Some readers seem to take it to be an opinion piece and criticise is as such, but that misses the point, it asks a question and discusses it.
It brings to mind is that only thirty years ago it seemed to many that there was a real possibility of stability and prosperity to all of Europe from the Urals to Lisbon. Clinton certainly thought so for a time before changing his mind. Gorbachov pointed to Scandinavia as an example of such an order and never changed his mind as far as I know. It seems only too timely to reflect on what exactly prevents our continent to escape from it’s seemingly endless cycle of war and misery
“You are ignorant and stupid and let me tell you why”. Can we please stop peppering our posts with personal insults, or at least cut down on it?
I hate people who make ad hominem attacks, er–that is…I dislike that tactic, despite the temporary rush, even though I’m not above it myself.
From the rhetorical standpoint alone, roaring mockery and insults should be avoided, or used sparingly, when they are richly deserved. As a group, the commentariat here is capable of better.
“You are ignorant and stupid and let me tell you why”. Can we please stop peppering our posts with personal insults, or at least cut down on it?
I hate people who make ad hominem attacks, er–that is…I dislike that tactic, despite the temporary rush, even though I’m not above it myself.
From the rhetorical standpoint alone, roaring mockery and insults should be avoided, or used sparingly, when they are richly deserved. As a group, the commentariat here is capable of better.
So many syllables. So little meaning.
So many syllables. So little meaning.
The author ignores that this war was started by a man who has compared himself to Peter the Great and whose aim it is to reinstate the old russian cold war hegemony over Europe. Russia has already begun preparations to seize power over Moldova. It has supportive friends in Serbia and Hungary and in many western countries to both left and right. Simply put: this war defines if democracy survive in Europe and (since China is watching) everywhere else in the world.
Russia will continue to use the threat of nuclear war every step it’s trying to take. If not stopped now Russia will become even bolder and the enemies of democracy also.
Well. pre-Cold War hegemony, actually. Before1917, Finland was a Russian possession, and Poland has been dismembered and passed back and forth almost forever.
It’s interesting – the Cold War used to be seen as this sui generis sort of struggle between communism and capitalism. I now see it as just one more chapter in the struggle between Russia and the West, with a communism/capitalism veneer.
Well. pre-Cold War hegemony, actually. Before1917, Finland was a Russian possession, and Poland has been dismembered and passed back and forth almost forever.
It’s interesting – the Cold War used to be seen as this sui generis sort of struggle between communism and capitalism. I now see it as just one more chapter in the struggle between Russia and the West, with a communism/capitalism veneer.
The author ignores that this war was started by a man who has compared himself to Peter the Great and whose aim it is to reinstate the old russian cold war hegemony over Europe. Russia has already begun preparations to seize power over Moldova. It has supportive friends in Serbia and Hungary and in many western countries to both left and right. Simply put: this war defines if democracy survive in Europe and (since China is watching) everywhere else in the world.
Russia will continue to use the threat of nuclear war every step it’s trying to take. If not stopped now Russia will become even bolder and the enemies of democracy also.
Off topic: I don’t understand what’s going on with the moderation at UnHerd.
The last two comments I wrote, long and considered ones, just disappeared within minutes. So frustrating, what a waste of time! I have no idea why — neither contained anything remotely close to profanity etc. The comments were on articles that don’t share the same topic either, and were days apart. (I only left 2 comments in the past 2 weeks, both deleted).
I’ve been a commenter here for a long time, I can’t figure out what’s happening. Is this happening to others also?
Are there certain words that you can’t say anymore, and they automatically trigger a deletion?
I’ve got a lot of that. The explanation I got was that they retired some for checking at random, and particularly if posts were appearing so fast that it triggered their bot-detector. It also looks like heavily downvoted posts are (temporarily) taken out for moderation. None of that sounds like your case. Did your comments reappear? Can they be seen in your Comments list? The moderation system is clearly shite, but maybe you can at least get an answer from their contact email.
Thanks for the reply. No, they wouldn’t even have time to be downvoted, it’s like they get chopped within minutes.
Really odd, and no they don’t appear in my own Comments section in my profile either. I wonder if it’s to do with the fact that after posting I clicked ‘Edit’ and corrected a typo. Perhaps that somehow gets flagged as bot-like activity? …strange though, I’ve been doing (correcting any typos etc that I notice after posting) for years and never had this issue.
I’ve sent them an email to ask about it. I can’t be bothered re-typing my entire long, considered comment. Oh well.
‘Conspiracy theories’ (ha) aside, I think that it is most likely a system glitch. My suggestion is that you write your comment on a text file, which has the advantage of giving you more chance to check it over, then copy and paste into the site, then if it fails you can copy and paste again with no hassle. If only I could take my own advice…!
That’s a good idea Tony, many thanks!
If you mean something that is in no way intentional or according to editorial policy, I don’t think it’s a glitch.
There are certain non-profane words that trigger delay or suppression. Some fraught historical references (think early-to-mid 20th Century) raise systemic red flags and you often have to tread more lightly around matters of gender and race to pass the firewall or follow-up check by individual arbiters–although some insane or bigoted views (not mine, in my own estimation!) do make it through, with hardly any discernible pattern. Most of my delayed comments have made it through within 12 hours anyway, but not without exception.
That’s a good idea Tony, many thanks!
If you mean something that is in no way intentional or according to editorial policy, I don’t think it’s a glitch.
There are certain non-profane words that trigger delay or suppression. Some fraught historical references (think early-to-mid 20th Century) raise systemic red flags and you often have to tread more lightly around matters of gender and race to pass the firewall or follow-up check by individual arbiters–although some insane or bigoted views (not mine, in my own estimation!) do make it through, with hardly any discernible pattern. Most of my delayed comments have made it through within 12 hours anyway, but not without exception.
If I write a long post I always copy it and paste it somewhere else, just in case. I’ve lost comments in the past but always in my experience because of finger trouble on my part or some system glitch. Reposting the saved comment generally seems to cure it.
After posting my comments I almost always find things that need editing; it would be more practical to write them in Word first, which might facilitate catching errors sooner. (UnHerd’s grey text and narrow columns can be impediments to effective proofreading, especially when one’s vision is not what it used to be.) But I have not had the same experiences as you, with comments vanishing.
‘Conspiracy theories’ (ha) aside, I think that it is most likely a system glitch. My suggestion is that you write your comment on a text file, which has the advantage of giving you more chance to check it over, then copy and paste into the site, then if it fails you can copy and paste again with no hassle. If only I could take my own advice…!
If I write a long post I always copy it and paste it somewhere else, just in case. I’ve lost comments in the past but always in my experience because of finger trouble on my part or some system glitch. Reposting the saved comment generally seems to cure it.
After posting my comments I almost always find things that need editing; it would be more practical to write them in Word first, which might facilitate catching errors sooner. (UnHerd’s grey text and narrow columns can be impediments to effective proofreading, especially when one’s vision is not what it used to be.) But I have not had the same experiences as you, with comments vanishing.
Thanks for the reply. No, they wouldn’t even have time to be downvoted, it’s like they get chopped within minutes.
Really odd, and no they don’t appear in my own Comments section in my profile either. I wonder if it’s to do with the fact that after posting I clicked ‘Edit’ and corrected a typo. Perhaps that somehow gets flagged as bot-like activity? …strange though, I’ve been doing (correcting any typos etc that I notice after posting) for years and never had this issue.
I’ve sent them an email to ask about it. I can’t be bothered re-typing my entire long, considered comment. Oh well.
When I queried something similar I was advised to log out and then in to my account, and the post would appear. Good luck.
Thanks Hendrik, I’ll try this now
Thanks Hendrik, I’ll try this now
I’ve got a lot of that. The explanation I got was that they retired some for checking at random, and particularly if posts were appearing so fast that it triggered their bot-detector. It also looks like heavily downvoted posts are (temporarily) taken out for moderation. None of that sounds like your case. Did your comments reappear? Can they be seen in your Comments list? The moderation system is clearly shite, but maybe you can at least get an answer from their contact email.
When I queried something similar I was advised to log out and then in to my account, and the post would appear. Good luck.
Off topic: I don’t understand what’s going on with the moderation at UnHerd.
The last two comments I wrote, long and considered ones, just disappeared within minutes. So frustrating, what a waste of time! I have no idea why — neither contained anything remotely close to profanity etc. The comments were on articles that don’t share the same topic either, and were days apart. (I only left 2 comments in the past 2 weeks, both deleted).
I’ve been a commenter here for a long time, I can’t figure out what’s happening. Is this happening to others also?
Are there certain words that you can’t say anymore, and they automatically trigger a deletion?
First off, I have to confess that I did not read this all the way to the end, since I got tired of the repetitive academic poofter-jargon, like “ontological security”. Even so, I got the drift of it: that “there is little upside for America and western Europe, and certainly no genuine national or strategic interest, in getting dragged into what is essentially a regional war in Eastern Europe involving two different nationalistic states.”
By that logic, neither America nor western European states should have gotten involved in WW1 or WW2, which would have been awkward, because by then some or most had already been conquered by the Germans.
And instead of drooling ontological drivel, this writer should consider the obvious, glaring parallels between Putin’s behavior and Hitler’s. Yes, I know: everybody is called Hitler by somebody, these days. But here is one parallel: In the late 1930s Hitler repeatedly alternated his aggressive behavior with peace “settlements” that he violated before the ink was quite dry. For Putin analogies, see his violations of peace settlements pertaining to Georgia, Donbass, Crimea and now all of Ukraine. Ever heard of the Minsk agreement?
Another parallel is that Hitler’s excuse invariably was that ethnic Germans were being oppressed by those he wanted to conquer, notably Czechoslovakia, Poland and finally Russia; Putin has made the same argument for his aggression in Donetsk and Donbass, and of course Crimea, except that this time it’s the ethnic Russians who are oppressed; and if he gets away with his present aggression the Baltic states will be invaded next, because they have sizable Russian-speaking minorities too. And then what?
And all of this to fulfill a tyrant’s dream of restoring a great
Reichoops, sorry, the great, but unfortunately un-ontologically late USSR.Brilliant!
The US may not have had a choice in WWII; Hitler declared war on the US. I’m not sure what they would have done, had he not.
Ironically, the Minsk agreements are often cited by trolls and ‘useful idiots’ as having been broken by Ukraine, when they try to explain that poor misunderstood Mr. Putin really had no choice but to invade Ukraine. Oh, plus that its skirt was too short (as Streiff of Red State brilliantly put it).
You are quite right about Hitler having declared war on the US, not the other way around; one could argue that the ignorant nutcase shot himself in the foot. Still, by December 1941 the US had already been helping the UK by supplying various war materials, so it was obvious where its sympathies lay; it had the industrial might to support a war on two fronts; and it seems inevitable that German subs would have started sinking American aid ships, anyway So it seems highly likely that America would have gotten involved in the European war, regardless.
Oh, and here’s another parallel between Hitler and Putin: the Russians have been seizing Ukrainian children to have them raised in Russia, by Russian parents. I’m not sure what the thinking behind that is; it may be inspired by Russia’s shrinking population; but the analogy is Hitler’s wartime program of abducting Polish children to be raised by German families; the deciding factor being whether the children looked sufficiently ‘Aryan’. And the ‘adoptions’ were done in such a way that very few ever saw their natural parents again.
You are quite right about Hitler having declared war on the US, not the other way around; one could argue that the ignorant nutcase shot himself in the foot. Still, by December 1941 the US had already been helping the UK by supplying various war materials, so it was obvious where its sympathies lay; it had the industrial might to support a war on two fronts; and it seems inevitable that German subs would have started sinking American aid ships, anyway So it seems highly likely that America would have gotten involved in the European war, regardless.
Oh, and here’s another parallel between Hitler and Putin: the Russians have been seizing Ukrainian children to have them raised in Russia, by Russian parents. I’m not sure what the thinking behind that is; it may be inspired by Russia’s shrinking population; but the analogy is Hitler’s wartime program of abducting Polish children to be raised by German families; the deciding factor being whether the children looked sufficiently ‘Aryan’. And the ‘adoptions’ were done in such a way that very few ever saw their natural parents again.
Brilliant!
The US may not have had a choice in WWII; Hitler declared war on the US. I’m not sure what they would have done, had he not.
Ironically, the Minsk agreements are often cited by trolls and ‘useful idiots’ as having been broken by Ukraine, when they try to explain that poor misunderstood Mr. Putin really had no choice but to invade Ukraine. Oh, plus that its skirt was too short (as Streiff of Red State brilliantly put it).
First off, I have to confess that I did not read this all the way to the end, since I got tired of the repetitive academic poofter-jargon, like “ontological security”. Even so, I got the drift of it: that “there is little upside for America and western Europe, and certainly no genuine national or strategic interest, in getting dragged into what is essentially a regional war in Eastern Europe involving two different nationalistic states.”
By that logic, neither America nor western European states should have gotten involved in WW1 or WW2, which would have been awkward, because by then some or most had already been conquered by the Germans.
And instead of drooling ontological drivel, this writer should consider the obvious, glaring parallels between Putin’s behavior and Hitler’s. Yes, I know: everybody is called Hitler by somebody, these days. But here is one parallel: In the late 1930s Hitler repeatedly alternated his aggressive behavior with peace “settlements” that he violated before the ink was quite dry. For Putin analogies, see his violations of peace settlements pertaining to Georgia, Donbass, Crimea and now all of Ukraine. Ever heard of the Minsk agreement?
Another parallel is that Hitler’s excuse invariably was that ethnic Germans were being oppressed by those he wanted to conquer, notably Czechoslovakia, Poland and finally Russia; Putin has made the same argument for his aggression in Donetsk and Donbass, and of course Crimea, except that this time it’s the ethnic Russians who are oppressed; and if he gets away with his present aggression the Baltic states will be invaded next, because they have sizable Russian-speaking minorities too. And then what?
And all of this to fulfill a tyrant’s dream of restoring a great
Reichoops, sorry, the great, but unfortunately un-ontologically late USSR.A lot of words there. Mainly long ones. If there is a coherent message, it could be done in a piece 1/4 of this length. I aks myself yet again – do Unherd employ any sub-editors ? I would send this sort of thing straight back to be re-written. No way I’d publish it like this.
Too many misconceptions to keep me engaged. So Russia is a “civilizational power”. That’ll be news to its neighbours. And that’s said in the same piece that recognises that Ukraine is fighting to finally free itself from Russian “civilization”.
The implication that Ukraine lacks “quality manpower” when the comparison is with the Russian military is frankly ludicrous.
Another link is labelled Ukraine’s “massive casualties”. The link is to a BBC news page reporting Ukraine’s self-reported military losses of “13000” up to December 22nd. Is 13000 casualties really “massive” after 10 months of war ? Of course, this number may be a bit higher, but the author does not claim it is.
13000 lol
Add another zero and you might be getting close to the real number
That was nothing to do with my point – as is clear if you bother to read it. I have offered no opinion on what the “real number” might be. I doubt you have any more idea than I do about the facts here.
That was nothing to do with my point – as is clear if you bother to read it. I have offered no opinion on what the “real number” might be. I doubt you have any more idea than I do about the facts here.
…it’s certainly not news to Russia’s neighbours that Russia is a civilizational power. They have been trying to escape ‘Russiafication’ for centuries. Indeed, the current Ukraine conflict is exactly about that. I think you are mis-reading the term, as used in the article, as a qualitative one.
Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I would understand the term “civilizational power” to mean “bringing or increasing civilization”. I would be most interested to learn of historical examples of Russia bringing civilization to Easter Europe. Because I cannot readily think of any.
…I think the meaning you’ve elaborated would be conveyed by the phrase “civilizing power”, so the contrast would be between the civil and the military in power terms. The sense used in the article, is that Russia has its own “ontology”, relative to ours in the West. It’s own “lived experience” so to speak.
In the West, not really. Better would be looking as Russian expansion to the south, in the 1700’s-1800’s. The khanates were pretty nasty places. I don’t know enough about what was in the east, before their expansion to the Pacific, to rate that.
…I think the meaning you’ve elaborated would be conveyed by the phrase “civilizing power”, so the contrast would be between the civil and the military in power terms. The sense used in the article, is that Russia has its own “ontology”, relative to ours in the West. It’s own “lived experience” so to speak.
In the West, not really. Better would be looking as Russian expansion to the south, in the 1700’s-1800’s. The khanates were pretty nasty places. I don’t know enough about what was in the east, before their expansion to the Pacific, to rate that.
But interestingly Ukraine and Kiev are the birthplace of Russia. So it’s hardly an issue of Russification. Also worth bearing in mind that many in Ukraine don’t even speak Ukrainian. For example, in Odessa (built by Catherine the Great), the vast majority of inhabitants only speak Russian. The fact of the matter is that Russia and Ukraine are part of the same country.
Of course, the very arguments that you make could have been applied to the US Civil War – i.e. the southern states wanted to escape from Northern domination (“northification” in your terminology), and especially the imposition of taxes on the south by the north. But history is written by the winners, not the losers.
Zero understanding of what constitutes a nation.
By your own criteria, South America should only be two countries.
Belgium should belong to France, and Austria to Germany (oh wait, didn’t they try that once?).
Fact is, Odesans overwhelmingly support Zelensky, as do most of the Russophones who voted for him.
Now they feel betrayed by almost all Russians, and want to kill them all. They, aren’t likely to give in regardless of what happens. That’s just how real nations are.
A nation is not a gang of serfs who are required to obey the liege lord who’s owned them from time immemorial.
That’s basic European history. Surely you learned that in school!?
And again, we simply can’t prop up the Russian corpse.
Exactly Johann. Also between Great Britain and the American revolutionaries. All of which makes the current confrontation so scary. Without a brake on the war’s escalation, there may well be no winners left to tell the tale.
Zero understanding of what constitutes a nation.
By your own criteria, South America should only be two countries.
Belgium should belong to France, and Austria to Germany (oh wait, didn’t they try that once?).
Fact is, Odesans overwhelmingly support Zelensky, as do most of the Russophones who voted for him.
Now they feel betrayed by almost all Russians, and want to kill them all. They, aren’t likely to give in regardless of what happens. That’s just how real nations are.
A nation is not a gang of serfs who are required to obey the liege lord who’s owned them from time immemorial.
That’s basic European history. Surely you learned that in school!?
And again, we simply can’t prop up the Russian corpse.
Exactly Johann. Also between Great Britain and the American revolutionaries. All of which makes the current confrontation so scary. Without a brake on the war’s escalation, there may well be no winners left to tell the tale.
Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I would understand the term “civilizational power” to mean “bringing or increasing civilization”. I would be most interested to learn of historical examples of Russia bringing civilization to Easter Europe. Because I cannot readily think of any.
But interestingly Ukraine and Kiev are the birthplace of Russia. So it’s hardly an issue of Russification. Also worth bearing in mind that many in Ukraine don’t even speak Ukrainian. For example, in Odessa (built by Catherine the Great), the vast majority of inhabitants only speak Russian. The fact of the matter is that Russia and Ukraine are part of the same country.
Of course, the very arguments that you make could have been applied to the US Civil War – i.e. the southern states wanted to escape from Northern domination (“northification” in your terminology), and especially the imposition of taxes on the south by the north. But history is written by the winners, not the losers.
Are you saying that Russia hasn’t contributed substantially to western civilization. I’d beg to differ. After Shakespeare, I would rate Tolstoy and Dostoyevski as among the greatest writers of all time. Russia was basically the founder of classical ballet and the western ballet canon. And Russian contribution to western music has been immense. So yes Russia has played a major role in the development and progression of Western civilization. And I might add that while I personally find Marxism/Communism and the Old Soviet Union abhorrent, it is worth remembering that the basis of that political (and fatally flawed) philosophy, Das Capital, was written by Marx in the British Library in tony Bloomsbury.
The Russian arts are great because Russians have unique insight into human failure.
The great 19th C writers brilliantly detailed the collapsing Romanovs.
Dissidents in the 20th C did the same with the doomed Soviets.
I have no doubts that there is a genius in Donbas right now who eventually will write a seering account of the death of Russia’s army, and then the collapse of the Russian state.
A new Bulgakov or Pasternak.
If he lives, that is.
Actually, I don’t recall Turgenev, Tolstoy, Chekhov or Dostoyevsky writing about the “collapsing Romanovs”. Censorship didn’t start with the Soviets – like the secret police it was already embedded in the Russian state. And exported to Eastern Europe after WWII. All part of the Russian “mission to civilize” no doubt.
…Dosto was framing his stories and other writing in the times of that collapse. His writing, does not document it as such. And the decline of that monarchy had as much to do with the impact of the ‘death of god’, and the industrial revolution, as the failure of the Czars and the ruling class to adapt.
…Dosto was framing his stories and other writing in the times of that collapse. His writing, does not document it as such. And the decline of that monarchy had as much to do with the impact of the ‘death of god’, and the industrial revolution, as the failure of the Czars and the ruling class to adapt.
Actually, I don’t recall Turgenev, Tolstoy, Chekhov or Dostoyevsky writing about the “collapsing Romanovs”. Censorship didn’t start with the Soviets – like the secret police it was already embedded in the Russian state. And exported to Eastern Europe after WWII. All part of the Russian “mission to civilize” no doubt.
No, that is not what I said.
I suggested that it has not made a net improvement in civilization to any country to the west of it where it has interfered/invaded over the past 300 years. The key words there are “net improvement”.
For instance, before WWII, the eastern German states were the most technically advanced in Germany. Afterwards they Trabants.
As it happens, I’ve read a lot of Russian novels (in English) and agree that some aspects of top end Russian culture have been excellent. But this has always been a rather thin veneer. Try reading Maxim Gorki’s “My Childhood” (an excellent, if uncomfortable book) and compare the horrific picture of small town life in the late 1800s in Russia with what you know about how it was in England and France at the time and tell me if Russian culture was more advanced then. Read any classic Russian novel and you’ll see that Russian landowners measure wealth by how many “souls” (serfs) they own, while English ones measure by their annual rental income from land and tenants (because they didn’t own serfs).
It’s irrelevant where Marx wrote his rubbish. It’s really clutching at straws to try to blame Britain for the Bolsheviks !
Russia has also produced, and continues to produce, some of the greatest mathematicians and physicists who have ever lived. But there’s little point in arguing with America’s useful idiots in the UK
Their haul of Nobels does not match up, though. An admittedly imperfect measure (as Meitner and Bell would perhaps be the first to admit), but it’s a simple first step.
Their haul of Nobels does not match up, though. An admittedly imperfect measure (as Meitner and Bell would perhaps be the first to admit), but it’s a simple first step.
I think you can make a better cases for effect on Western civilization in the sciences (nothing much comes to mind on the math front – well, the Markov brothers). Mendeleev (of the periodic table) was the most notable. Pavlov (of the dogs). Who else? Cherenkov, Landau and Kapitsa, I guess.
The Russian arts are great because Russians have unique insight into human failure.
The great 19th C writers brilliantly detailed the collapsing Romanovs.
Dissidents in the 20th C did the same with the doomed Soviets.
I have no doubts that there is a genius in Donbas right now who eventually will write a seering account of the death of Russia’s army, and then the collapse of the Russian state.
A new Bulgakov or Pasternak.
If he lives, that is.
No, that is not what I said.
I suggested that it has not made a net improvement in civilization to any country to the west of it where it has interfered/invaded over the past 300 years. The key words there are “net improvement”.
For instance, before WWII, the eastern German states were the most technically advanced in Germany. Afterwards they Trabants.
As it happens, I’ve read a lot of Russian novels (in English) and agree that some aspects of top end Russian culture have been excellent. But this has always been a rather thin veneer. Try reading Maxim Gorki’s “My Childhood” (an excellent, if uncomfortable book) and compare the horrific picture of small town life in the late 1800s in Russia with what you know about how it was in England and France at the time and tell me if Russian culture was more advanced then. Read any classic Russian novel and you’ll see that Russian landowners measure wealth by how many “souls” (serfs) they own, while English ones measure by their annual rental income from land and tenants (because they didn’t own serfs).
It’s irrelevant where Marx wrote his rubbish. It’s really clutching at straws to try to blame Britain for the Bolsheviks !
Russia has also produced, and continues to produce, some of the greatest mathematicians and physicists who have ever lived. But there’s little point in arguing with America’s useful idiots in the UK
I think you can make a better cases for effect on Western civilization in the sciences (nothing much comes to mind on the math front – well, the Markov brothers). Mendeleev (of the periodic table) was the most notable. Pavlov (of the dogs). Who else? Cherenkov, Landau and Kapitsa, I guess.
That Russia is a civilizational power means that it is a nation state that is also a Civilization, the Orthodox one. The other such state is China
13000 lol
Add another zero and you might be getting close to the real number
…it’s certainly not news to Russia’s neighbours that Russia is a civilizational power. They have been trying to escape ‘Russiafication’ for centuries. Indeed, the current Ukraine conflict is exactly about that. I think you are mis-reading the term, as used in the article, as a qualitative one.
Are you saying that Russia hasn’t contributed substantially to western civilization. I’d beg to differ. After Shakespeare, I would rate Tolstoy and Dostoyevski as among the greatest writers of all time. Russia was basically the founder of classical ballet and the western ballet canon. And Russian contribution to western music has been immense. So yes Russia has played a major role in the development and progression of Western civilization. And I might add that while I personally find Marxism/Communism and the Old Soviet Union abhorrent, it is worth remembering that the basis of that political (and fatally flawed) philosophy, Das Capital, was written by Marx in the British Library in tony Bloomsbury.
That Russia is a civilizational power means that it is a nation state that is also a Civilization, the Orthodox one. The other such state is China
A lot of words there. Mainly long ones. If there is a coherent message, it could be done in a piece 1/4 of this length. I aks myself yet again – do Unherd employ any sub-editors ? I would send this sort of thing straight back to be re-written. No way I’d publish it like this.
Too many misconceptions to keep me engaged. So Russia is a “civilizational power”. That’ll be news to its neighbours. And that’s said in the same piece that recognises that Ukraine is fighting to finally free itself from Russian “civilization”.
The implication that Ukraine lacks “quality manpower” when the comparison is with the Russian military is frankly ludicrous.
Another link is labelled Ukraine’s “massive casualties”. The link is to a BBC news page reporting Ukraine’s self-reported military losses of “13000” up to December 22nd. Is 13000 casualties really “massive” after 10 months of war ? Of course, this number may be a bit higher, but the author does not claim it is.
The writer ignores (probably because he knows nothing about Russia itself) the actual capabilities and limitations of Putin’s regime.
So a simple question: if Russian might is so all powerful, why has Putin only called up 300,000?
Since Russia is supposedly three times as large as Ukraine, a call up of a million men would surely overwhelm any army.
The ready answer is that Russia is a very weak country with very little internal cohesion. Any mass mobilization of people and industry would destabilize the country.
Instead of applying models based on 19th imperial politics, it would be far better to consider this very particular situation.
Putin’s kleptocratic regime has little if anything to do with the Romanovs.
The writer ignores (probably because he knows nothing about Russia itself) the actual capabilities and limitations of Putin’s regime.
So a simple question: if Russian might is so all powerful, why has Putin only called up 300,000?
Since Russia is supposedly three times as large as Ukraine, a call up of a million men would surely overwhelm any army.
The ready answer is that Russia is a very weak country with very little internal cohesion. Any mass mobilization of people and industry would destabilize the country.
Instead of applying models based on 19th imperial politics, it would be far better to consider this very particular situation.
Putin’s kleptocratic regime has little if anything to do with the Romanovs.
If, by “escalating,” the author really means “giving Ukrainians support and weapons they need to defend themselves against an aggressor who wants to take away their independence, then yes, we’re “escalating.”
If, by “escalating,” the author really means “giving Ukrainians support and weapons they need to defend themselves against an aggressor who wants to take away their independence, then yes, we’re “escalating.”
Dictators’ apologists throughout time have turned to “legitimate interests”. This man is Putin’s poodle.
Dictators’ apologists throughout time have turned to “legitimate interests”. This man is Putin’s poodle.
“Trojan allies” – states including Poland and the Baltic States which have actually and on.more than one occasion been brutally attacked by Russia / Soviet Union – and Germany! – and so which have every reason to fear Russian aggression.
Apart from this, and wading through the turgid prose, the author joins the ranks of those who are desperate to blame the West for this conflict – and for sure we can look to mistakes – while entirely exonerating Russia. It is a truly terrible situation, but the answer for these people appears always to be for Ukraine to capitulate, and presumably cease to exist in any meaningful way as an independent country. And what comes next?
“Trojan allies” – states including Poland and the Baltic States which have actually and on.more than one occasion been brutally attacked by Russia / Soviet Union – and Germany! – and so which have every reason to fear Russian aggression.
Apart from this, and wading through the turgid prose, the author joins the ranks of those who are desperate to blame the West for this conflict – and for sure we can look to mistakes – while entirely exonerating Russia. It is a truly terrible situation, but the answer for these people appears always to be for Ukraine to capitulate, and presumably cease to exist in any meaningful way as an independent country. And what comes next?
“Why, then, does the West continue to oblige Ukraine and give in to reputational pressure and arm-twisting from Nato’s newest members in the Intermarium corridor? There are a number of causes, ranging from the private and institutional interests of the liberal internationalist establishment to the spread of a Manichaean worldview in the alliance.”
Do passages like this amount to nothing more than talking in circles? Where, for example, did the “Manichaean worldview” come from? Perhaps the “reputational pressure,” “Manichaean worldview,” and other aspects of the West’s this emotionally-stunted meddling are all part of a larger syndrome of attributes.
Meanwhile, Paul Wolfowitz should call his office. Recall the “Wolfowitz memorandum,” which laid out the idea (in 1992 or so) that the US should entrench its status as leader of a (real or imagined) new, uni-polar world order by suppressing the rise of potential rivals. The list of potential rivals was headlined by China, Russia, India, Germany and Japan.
The Wolfowitz Doctrine did not get much traction in the 1990’s. There was robust sentiment behind the idea of enjoying a “peace dividend” by giving up on the expense of actively opposing the Soviet Union. But, the Wolfowitz and his people were ensconced the Defense Department when 9/11 generated a new opportunity to push their worldview. Perhaps “ontological insecurity” would have been a good label to assign to it: Imagine infeasible solutions to problems that don’t exist.
“Why, then, does the West continue to oblige Ukraine and give in to reputational pressure and arm-twisting from Nato’s newest members in the Intermarium corridor? There are a number of causes, ranging from the private and institutional interests of the liberal internationalist establishment to the spread of a Manichaean worldview in the alliance.”
Do passages like this amount to nothing more than talking in circles? Where, for example, did the “Manichaean worldview” come from? Perhaps the “reputational pressure,” “Manichaean worldview,” and other aspects of the West’s this emotionally-stunted meddling are all part of a larger syndrome of attributes.
Meanwhile, Paul Wolfowitz should call his office. Recall the “Wolfowitz memorandum,” which laid out the idea (in 1992 or so) that the US should entrench its status as leader of a (real or imagined) new, uni-polar world order by suppressing the rise of potential rivals. The list of potential rivals was headlined by China, Russia, India, Germany and Japan.
The Wolfowitz Doctrine did not get much traction in the 1990’s. There was robust sentiment behind the idea of enjoying a “peace dividend” by giving up on the expense of actively opposing the Soviet Union. But, the Wolfowitz and his people were ensconced the Defense Department when 9/11 generated a new opportunity to push their worldview. Perhaps “ontological insecurity” would have been a good label to assign to it: Imagine infeasible solutions to problems that don’t exist.
Yes.
Yes.
Flawed thinking by Moeini.
The Ukrainians started the war with inadequate armed forces, nowhere near enough to deter a Russian invasion. Probably because they thought over the last 3 decades that Russia would not go for a full on invasion.
The gaol now is to ensure that Ukraine has enough to defend itself, in the face of actual war. That means an army of nearly 1 million and all the gear that goes with it. This size army was historically not unusual for countries with the population of Ukraine. Only since the end of the Cold War have armed forces drastically reduced.
An army of 1 million needs a vast amount of equipment. In the middle of a war that require massive arms transfers, there is not decades to build things up.
So yes, it is a massive infusion from the West. Tanks by the hundreds, missiles by the thousands. And for the airforce helicopters and jets, maybe a thousand aircraft.
All to defeat the invaders. Probably not enough to win back Crimea. But enough to eventually bring Russia to negotiations.
Flawed thinking by Moeini.
The Ukrainians started the war with inadequate armed forces, nowhere near enough to deter a Russian invasion. Probably because they thought over the last 3 decades that Russia would not go for a full on invasion.
The gaol now is to ensure that Ukraine has enough to defend itself, in the face of actual war. That means an army of nearly 1 million and all the gear that goes with it. This size army was historically not unusual for countries with the population of Ukraine. Only since the end of the Cold War have armed forces drastically reduced.
An army of 1 million needs a vast amount of equipment. In the middle of a war that require massive arms transfers, there is not decades to build things up.
So yes, it is a massive infusion from the West. Tanks by the hundreds, missiles by the thousands. And for the airforce helicopters and jets, maybe a thousand aircraft.
All to defeat the invaders. Probably not enough to win back Crimea. But enough to eventually bring Russia to negotiations.
It helps to actually be aware of what is happening on the ground, vice what you think you remember from WW2 Docs about Russia.
Almost all of the regular Russian army is gone. In particular, the junior officers and NCOs. 300,000 draftees won’t fix the problem, since no one can make a good junior officer or NCO in a few weeks or months.
Putin has made this problem existential by launching these offensives. His reason was because he at least wanted all of Donbas. The “mobiks” might just have held out on defence. But offensive requires much more skill, which again, the Russian army no longer has. The offensive will fail and Putin will be much worse off than when he started.
The new NATO help thus makes Russia’s prospects bleak if not terminal. Ukraine will be far stronger in the spring than it would otherwise have been, if Putin had just stayed on defence.
The attempts to destroy infrastructure won’t work any better than the bombings of Hanoi or London.
Using air power again just means he loses both his arm AND his air force. The AAA capabilities of both sides preclude air superiority by either.
An astute leader might still pull something out.
But every day of this war shows that Putin is living in a dream world. Every one of his decisions have been wrong.
And postulating political “solutions” that have nothing to do with facts on the ground is to simply enter into his dreamworld too.
How much do they pay you for all of this Martin ?
Actually, I think he’s mostly on target – and as anti-Scientology crusders used to say, back in the day, when attacked the same way – ‘where’s my check?’
Actually, I think he’s mostly on target – and as anti-Scientology crusders used to say, back in the day, when attacked the same way – ‘where’s my check?’
Actually, the Russians don’t really have a good NCO corps; they use junior officers instead. Which is going to be a real problem for them, as they’ve been taking horrendous losses in their officers.
As to the bombings, look at the results of the USSBS: most of the targets (both cities, and industrial) were a waste of munitions.
The American “strategic bombing” campaign was not as successful as the post-war assessment represented, and much of that must have been due to its over-hyped but primitive targeting technology. The Norden bomb sight, for one, was not nearly as effective as claimed, and I read once about someone asking a former US bomber pilot how they missed destroying the Cologne cathedral, when everything around it had been flattened. “That was easy,” the pilot said. “We aimed for it.”
That said, I would not say it was all a waste, and partly for human, non-military reasons. When I asked one former B-17 flight engineer why he had not kept a diary of his 51 missions out of Italy, he said it didn’t seem worth it, because he never expected to come back alive.
The American “strategic bombing” campaign was not as successful as the post-war assessment represented, and much of that must have been due to its over-hyped but primitive targeting technology. The Norden bomb sight, for one, was not nearly as effective as claimed, and I read once about someone asking a former US bomber pilot how they missed destroying the Cologne cathedral, when everything around it had been flattened. “That was easy,” the pilot said. “We aimed for it.”
That said, I would not say it was all a waste, and partly for human, non-military reasons. When I asked one former B-17 flight engineer why he had not kept a diary of his 51 missions out of Italy, he said it didn’t seem worth it, because he never expected to come back alive.
How much do they pay you for all of this Martin ?
Actually, the Russians don’t really have a good NCO corps; they use junior officers instead. Which is going to be a real problem for them, as they’ve been taking horrendous losses in their officers.
As to the bombings, look at the results of the USSBS: most of the targets (both cities, and industrial) were a waste of munitions.
It helps to actually be aware of what is happening on the ground, vice what you think you remember from WW2 Docs about Russia.
Almost all of the regular Russian army is gone. In particular, the junior officers and NCOs. 300,000 draftees won’t fix the problem, since no one can make a good junior officer or NCO in a few weeks or months.
Putin has made this problem existential by launching these offensives. His reason was because he at least wanted all of Donbas. The “mobiks” might just have held out on defence. But offensive requires much more skill, which again, the Russian army no longer has. The offensive will fail and Putin will be much worse off than when he started.
The new NATO help thus makes Russia’s prospects bleak if not terminal. Ukraine will be far stronger in the spring than it would otherwise have been, if Putin had just stayed on defence.
The attempts to destroy infrastructure won’t work any better than the bombings of Hanoi or London.
Using air power again just means he loses both his arm AND his air force. The AAA capabilities of both sides preclude air superiority by either.
An astute leader might still pull something out.
But every day of this war shows that Putin is living in a dream world. Every one of his decisions have been wrong.
And postulating political “solutions” that have nothing to do with facts on the ground is to simply enter into his dreamworld too.
Look at it this way. Everyone knows that the big match is the US versus China. If John Mearsheimer is the relevant authority, this is his position and he justifies it by claiming the US has remorselessly sought hegemony since its foundation in 1783. Mearsheimer goes further and claims he has told the Chinese that the US will not accept their challenge to its hegemony. It will fight. It follows that if China tries to take Taiwan, as it insists on the right to do, the last thing the US would want is some regional flare up in Europe involving Russia at the same time. Fighting on two fronts is a famously bad idea. Fortunately, Putin decided to go first, creating an opportunity to convert Ukraine into a killing field for the Russian Army. Job done. Those who say the West has no plan to end the war are ignoring a basic point about wars. At some point the ruling elite of one of the combatants will start to suffer a loss of confidence and consider terms. The Russians are rapidly approaching this point. We can see it in the open hostilities between the Russian Army and Wagner, as well as from commentary by the likes of Igor Girkin on Telegram. The Chinese timetable is thought to be an assault on Taiwan in 2025, being the 80th anniversary of the acquisition of what was then Formosa by the forces of the Nationalist Chinese. President Xi’s current term in office expires in 2027, and he will want a major achievement to legitimise yet another term; Taiwan is the obvious choice. The US seems to understand this dynamic. It follows that the US will want to bring things to a conclusion in Ukraine well before 2025.
Look at it this way. Everyone knows that the big match is the US versus China. If John Mearsheimer is the relevant authority, this is his position and he justifies it by claiming the US has remorselessly sought hegemony since its foundation in 1783. Mearsheimer goes further and claims he has told the Chinese that the US will not accept their challenge to its hegemony. It will fight. It follows that if China tries to take Taiwan, as it insists on the right to do, the last thing the US would want is some regional flare up in Europe involving Russia at the same time. Fighting on two fronts is a famously bad idea. Fortunately, Putin decided to go first, creating an opportunity to convert Ukraine into a killing field for the Russian Army. Job done. Those who say the West has no plan to end the war are ignoring a basic point about wars. At some point the ruling elite of one of the combatants will start to suffer a loss of confidence and consider terms. The Russians are rapidly approaching this point. We can see it in the open hostilities between the Russian Army and Wagner, as well as from commentary by the likes of Igor Girkin on Telegram. The Chinese timetable is thought to be an assault on Taiwan in 2025, being the 80th anniversary of the acquisition of what was then Formosa by the forces of the Nationalist Chinese. President Xi’s current term in office expires in 2027, and he will want a major achievement to legitimise yet another term; Taiwan is the obvious choice. The US seems to understand this dynamic. It follows that the US will want to bring things to a conclusion in Ukraine well before 2025.
This really is the most frightful rubbish – pretentious gobbledygook with a pro-Kremlin bias. Not at all what I pay my subscription for.
It’s not all bad. Look at all the pro-Ukraine comments raised by this pretentious scribbler.
It’s not all bad. Look at all the pro-Ukraine comments raised by this pretentious scribbler.
This really is the most frightful rubbish – pretentious gobbledygook with a pro-Kremlin bias. Not at all what I pay my subscription for.
This article is just awful. Essentially he’s saying that we should let the Russian fascists win. We should allow Putin to claim victory, which would probably predicate another invasion later down the line. Yes, very clever. Also very cowardly.
What this article is calling for is appeasement.
This article is just awful. Essentially he’s saying that we should let the Russian fascists win. We should allow Putin to claim victory, which would probably predicate another invasion later down the line. Yes, very clever. Also very cowardly.
What this article is calling for is appeasement.
Apparently China thinks the West is escalating, and doesn’t like it. Anthony Blinken says China is considering giving “lethal assistance” to Russia.
Apparently China thinks the West is escalating, and doesn’t like it. Anthony Blinken says China is considering giving “lethal assistance” to Russia.
The Ukraine project come war is yet another grotesque American misadventure. Decades ago it was decided that Ukraine would be the gateway to Russian destruction. This author has skipped over all of these vital details, which are easily discovered in foreign policy documents from the 1990s (and certainly more from the Soviet era). In any case, the war has made bare the utterly destructive nature of their Ukraine project, and like all their other projects in the post WWII era, will end in death and disaster. It is hard to imagine a more terrifying hegemon, and other powers have certainly taken note.
The Ukraine project come war is yet another grotesque American misadventure. Decades ago it was decided that Ukraine would be the gateway to Russian destruction. This author has skipped over all of these vital details, which are easily discovered in foreign policy documents from the 1990s (and certainly more from the Soviet era). In any case, the war has made bare the utterly destructive nature of their Ukraine project, and like all their other projects in the post WWII era, will end in death and disaster. It is hard to imagine a more terrifying hegemon, and other powers have certainly taken note.
The last paragraph makes all the important points, and they are correct points.
A brave article with cogent analysis.
Lots of jargon and disjointed reasoning here. Russia invaded a sovereign European country and is deliberately killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure. Security concerns and historical claims are feeble attempts to rationalize this criminal aggression. The West is providing material support to Ukraine but is otherwise leaving Ukraine to fend for itself. I think Unherd can find more thoughtful commentators. I’m sure there is a university position somewhere for this author.
Lots of jargon and disjointed reasoning here. Russia invaded a sovereign European country and is deliberately killing civilians and destroying civilian infrastructure. Security concerns and historical claims are feeble attempts to rationalize this criminal aggression. The West is providing material support to Ukraine but is otherwise leaving Ukraine to fend for itself. I think Unherd can find more thoughtful commentators. I’m sure there is a university position somewhere for this author.
Interesting article : fascinating comments. It seems to me that a fundamental problem for all of us here in the West is that we make erroneous assumptions about how Russians think, how Putin thinks, and how Ukraine/Ukrainians think.
Goodness knows we have demonstrated that we do not understand how the islamic world is motivated and they ‘look’ very different from us. Russia, and Ukraine, “look” like us, so we assume we know what motivates them and how they think. Americans look even more like us, and have a similar language, but I suggest most of us do not really understand them either.
It is very dangerous, I submit, to assume that the average Westerner will understand how Putin will think or act : he will certainly not act in a ‘rational’ manner according to our way of thinking. It is not beyond belief that he would press the nuclear button just to see how the pretty lights look during and afterward. (Not morally all that far off releasing Novichok on the streets of a foreign nation.)
After all, he, and Russians generally are tacitly behind the animalistic behviour of Russian troops troops on foreign soil – many, indeed most, do not acknowledge the behaviour of their troops in Berlin at the end of WW2. I know that any troops can go out of control (Americans in Vietnam and in Iraq for example) but I would like to think – perhaps naively – that we in the West, particularly in Britain, would not send troops out with carte blanche to torture and rape civilians. Putin and his ilk would, without a second thought.
Interesting article : fascinating comments. It seems to me that a fundamental problem for all of us here in the West is that we make erroneous assumptions about how Russians think, how Putin thinks, and how Ukraine/Ukrainians think.
Goodness knows we have demonstrated that we do not understand how the islamic world is motivated and they ‘look’ very different from us. Russia, and Ukraine, “look” like us, so we assume we know what motivates them and how they think. Americans look even more like us, and have a similar language, but I suggest most of us do not really understand them either.
It is very dangerous, I submit, to assume that the average Westerner will understand how Putin will think or act : he will certainly not act in a ‘rational’ manner according to our way of thinking. It is not beyond belief that he would press the nuclear button just to see how the pretty lights look during and afterward. (Not morally all that far off releasing Novichok on the streets of a foreign nation.)
After all, he, and Russians generally are tacitly behind the animalistic behviour of Russian troops troops on foreign soil – many, indeed most, do not acknowledge the behaviour of their troops in Berlin at the end of WW2. I know that any troops can go out of control (Americans in Vietnam and in Iraq for example) but I would like to think – perhaps naively – that we in the West, particularly in Britain, would not send troops out with carte blanche to torture and rape civilians. Putin and his ilk would, without a second thought.
The problem is, Moscow is no longer even a regional power, since it has alienated every former Soviet republic, and cannot even adjudicate the Armenian Azerbaijan conflict. Putin has essentially committed a Russian suicide.
We can’t keep trying to animate a corpse.
I do enjoy reading your absurd rants, although sometimes I laugh a bit too hard. Hmm about that — in your face: the IMF projects the corpse will have slightly positive GDP growth in ’23. Positive! Unlike negatives for UK, Germany, Romania and half of the EU. So it might somehow animate itself, huh?
And you believe their figures(IMF has to rely on what Russia gives them) .. anyway they still have a lot of oil and gas to sell …
And you believe their figures(IMF has to rely on what Russia gives them) .. anyway they still have a lot of oil and gas to sell …
I do enjoy reading your absurd rants, although sometimes I laugh a bit too hard. Hmm about that — in your face: the IMF projects the corpse will have slightly positive GDP growth in ’23. Positive! Unlike negatives for UK, Germany, Romania and half of the EU. So it might somehow animate itself, huh?
The problem is, Moscow is no longer even a regional power, since it has alienated every former Soviet republic, and cannot even adjudicate the Armenian Azerbaijan conflict. Putin has essentially committed a Russian suicide.
We can’t keep trying to animate a corpse.
“Is the West escalating the Ukraine war?”
No it isn’t, it’s simply reacting to Russias escalation of bombing civilians hundreds of miles behind the front lines and mobilising hundreds of thousands of extra troops and mercenaries
“Is the West escalating the Ukraine war?”
No it isn’t, it’s simply reacting to Russias escalation of bombing civilians hundreds of miles behind the front lines and mobilising hundreds of thousands of extra troops and mercenaries
I am not impressed with this, even past the academic Newspeak (which is quite bad enough – its contribution to un-clarity being the least of its issues). And anyone associated with an ‘Institute for Peace’ has an even bigger down-grade – right up there with a physicist from an ‘Institute for Anti-gravity’. (It would be nice to have, but is it realistic?)
I then started off with a negative take (he seems to like Mearsheimer, who I think does not see things with a wide-enough historical scope), but it went down from there.
He later mentions the F-16s (which there is no guarantee the Ukrainians will get, although it’s possible; what’s more likely is a deal where the Poles get them, and the currently-blocked Polish MiG-29’s go to Ukraine), which he calls “increasingly suicidal”, and goes on to make the obligatory scary reference to “World War III”. Perhaps he has forgotten (if he ever knew) that Russia (the USSR, to be exact) gave MiG’s to the North Viet Namese, and even more advanced MiG’s (-23’s or -25’s, I forget which) to Egypt, without setting off WWIII.
I struggled through this to the end, but gained nothing.
PS: Let the down-votes from the ‘useful idiots’ begin!
And more than that: during the Korean war, Russia participated with MIGs flown by Russian pilots.
And more than that: during the Korean war, Russia participated with MIGs flown by Russian pilots.
I am not impressed with this, even past the academic Newspeak (which is quite bad enough – its contribution to un-clarity being the least of its issues). And anyone associated with an ‘Institute for Peace’ has an even bigger down-grade – right up there with a physicist from an ‘Institute for Anti-gravity’. (It would be nice to have, but is it realistic?)
I then started off with a negative take (he seems to like Mearsheimer, who I think does not see things with a wide-enough historical scope), but it went down from there.
He later mentions the F-16s (which there is no guarantee the Ukrainians will get, although it’s possible; what’s more likely is a deal where the Poles get them, and the currently-blocked Polish MiG-29’s go to Ukraine), which he calls “increasingly suicidal”, and goes on to make the obligatory scary reference to “World War III”. Perhaps he has forgotten (if he ever knew) that Russia (the USSR, to be exact) gave MiG’s to the North Viet Namese, and even more advanced MiG’s (-23’s or -25’s, I forget which) to Egypt, without setting off WWIII.
I struggled through this to the end, but gained nothing.
PS: Let the down-votes from the ‘useful idiots’ begin!
Interesting piece – i find little to disagree with except “NATO” is even more disparate and fractured than is admitted above: Turkey and France have never kept to any international alliance including with each other and their governments are way more anti US/UK than they are anti Russia. Spain are only in it for the £s and some nice boys toys, todo por la Patria is still very much a thing there. Unlike Turkey and France i don’t think they are a viper in the OTAN bosom but may not want to spill Spanish blood unless they are threatened themselves. As for Germany – well, unless and until it is broken back down into regions ruled by competing princes/Landau it will, like Russia always be a problem for its neighbours. Sadly unless their Reich is dismantled one day we will have to fight them again.
Don’t be silly. The Germans are aggressively peace-loving these days.
Don’t be silly. The Germans are aggressively peace-loving these days.
Interesting piece – i find little to disagree with except “NATO” is even more disparate and fractured than is admitted above: Turkey and France have never kept to any international alliance including with each other and their governments are way more anti US/UK than they are anti Russia. Spain are only in it for the £s and some nice boys toys, todo por la Patria is still very much a thing there. Unlike Turkey and France i don’t think they are a viper in the OTAN bosom but may not want to spill Spanish blood unless they are threatened themselves. As for Germany – well, unless and until it is broken back down into regions ruled by competing princes/Landau it will, like Russia always be a problem for its neighbours. Sadly unless their Reich is dismantled one day we will have to fight them again.
Simple answer: yes.
Simple answer: yes.
Carthaginia peace is interesting. I started referring to this as the third punic war about two minutes after Russian tanks crossed the border out of Byelorussia into Ukraine. But perhaps the more relevant “peace” is the one visited on Germany in May 1945 … total ruination that eradicates the last vestiges of the propagandized mind set, that too many Russians are accustomed to living inside of
Carthaginia peace is interesting. I started referring to this as the third punic war about two minutes after Russian tanks crossed the border out of Byelorussia into Ukraine. But perhaps the more relevant “peace” is the one visited on Germany in May 1945 … total ruination that eradicates the last vestiges of the propagandized mind set, that too many Russians are accustomed to living inside of
This article is garbage, and if you keep publishing this Putin-apologist trash, you’ll lose me as a subscriber, and probably many more clear thinkers too. The last paragraph sounds like it was drafted in the Kremlin. So does this Putin-apologist rubbish from a few months ago, by the same author: « With each of these conflicts, the coverage gets worse, and the traps become ever more luring and incendiary. In each case, a narrative is constructed and transposed over the reporting, reinforced by sensationalist imagery that could rationalise an intervention and perhaps military action. But none compares to Ukraine. Here, we have witnessed the media of the Free World disseminating dishonest or otherwise uncritical coverage, fake news, Ukrainian disinformation, and propaganda aimed at conditioning the public to internalise the establishment’s Manichean narrative of a deranged madman’s random war of aggression. »
This Arta Moeini should change the name of his organisation to The Institute for Appeasement Diplomacy.
Seems balanced and reasonable to me. Even if you are right, for you, then can you not appreciate the view from the other side. Which with the MSM being so univiewed is the main reason I come to Unherd.
This deranged madman narrative no longer fits what we’re hearing from NATO. At this point they have admitted that this war began in 2014, and that the Minsk agreements, overseen by the Germans and French were just a delay tactic to further arm up Ukraine. That information was hidden from you and me at the start by our own side. Also, the information from our side (the West) was that since he was a madman he was hell bent on invading all of Europe, and yet this last week the Joint Chiefs chairman Mark Milley told the Financial Times that “neither side is likely to prevail” and that it will most probably end in negotiations. Which is it, a madman hell bent on expansionism or something neither side can win and that they expect Russia to negotiate an end to? Yet again, we’re finding out the narratives on our side weren’t true….
Same with the reports that Ukraine is about to start to win any day now, or that they could ever win…. They didn’t tell us that there was not enough ammo in NATO or the US to sustain this war, and that we also didn’t have the capacity to ramp up and create enough for them or apparently for ourselves at this point….
Also we were told that the sanctions were going to destroy the Russian economy… that was a huge backfire too… it really messed things up here in Europe…
We’re the ones who have been told lie after lie demonstrably so to anyone who’s been keeping up with the statements, confessions, and revelations from our own side.
Basically, from an informed viewpoint we need to try and exit everyone from this thing, tell the Ukrainians to negotiate ASAP, because we were lied to, this US politician driven policy to fight to the last Ukrainian is ridiculous and evil…
What we have now is enough Russian troops massed with enough weapons, and a wartime artillery and missile manufacturing base in Russia to sustain a 30 month war. Many of Europe’s own nations have admitted that they have enough supplies to last about 3 days. Since I live in Europe, I would prefer not to have to learn Russian. The clowns need to stop with their War Pigs (cue the old Black Sabbath tune) policies. The US and NATO could not currently win a war. This is not the same as fighting poorly armed islamic people somewhere. This is a real military power the currently has more ground troups (many with experience) that is currently much larger than the US or all the NATO members combined could muster… This is a no brainer… We all need to demand that the US and NATO call to an end to this war! It’s us who owe Ukrian an apology for letting so much more ground be taken and so many of them die by Borris telling them that they should not negotiate neutrality last Spring.
Yet again, more lies by our side…NATO’s (US driven) expansionist policies driven by the US military insdustrial complex that wants endless wars… They even blew up German pipelines (you still don’t beleive the lies that Russia blew up the pipeline do you?), not caring how German middle class, their industries, thier future would do without energy! Who’s the thug hell bent on expansion? Who are the ones who don’t care about our own lives? Who are the lying liers? Don’t trust Russia? Thats’ fine, but trusting the people in charge of all of the dishonest narratives on our own side of the issue is even more foolish.
Yet somehow I doubt people who get red faced and call people a Putin apologist at the hint of any disagreement with the narratives are capable of understanding how much the narratives on our own side have been shown to be deceptions.
Yes the Russian invasion started in 2014, shortly after the annexation of Crimea. Russia thus violated both the earlier Budapest Memoramdum, and the Minsk agreements. All this was reported, so your clams about the western narative being untrue, is itself untrue. Your claim of deception is itself a deception.
Tell the Ukranians to negotiate, you say. That is just Kremlinspeak for appease. Which indeed makes you a Putin apologist, despite your dishonest denial.
And actually Ukraine did offer neutrality if Russia called off the invasion, but Russia refused. Indicating its real motives have nothinig to do with security, everything to do with imperialism.
Well, considering Minsk II was signed on 12 February 2015, it is difficult to see how Russia violated it in 2014.
And such self-righteousness about deception, too!
Yes you are technically correct as Russia started its invasion in 2014 it only violated the Budapest memorandum at that time. It has, since then, violated the Minsk agreements, given missiles to the “rebels” to shoot don a civilian aircraft etc.so that’s alright then…
Yes you are technically correct as Russia started its invasion in 2014 it only violated the Budapest memorandum at that time. It has, since then, violated the Minsk agreements, given missiles to the “rebels” to shoot don a civilian aircraft etc.so that’s alright then…
I guess using any kind of labeling as an argument shows weakness.
Since putting forward an alternative point of view makes one an apologist for the ‘other side’, does that make you a Biden apologist? Your willingness to blindly accept everything you are told by the western MSM certainly suggests that is the case.
BTW it helps if you get your historical facts right.
Well, considering Minsk II was signed on 12 February 2015, it is difficult to see how Russia violated it in 2014.
And such self-righteousness about deception, too!
I guess using any kind of labeling as an argument shows weakness.
Since putting forward an alternative point of view makes one an apologist for the ‘other side’, does that make you a Biden apologist? Your willingness to blindly accept everything you are told by the western MSM certainly suggests that is the case.
BTW it helps if you get your historical facts right.
Most Russians are unaware of both the near obliteration of their regular army and the extremely poor training of their recent “mobiks” When they finally find out, Putin is doomed.
The Russian offensive is going nowhere. It will instead result in far fewer soldiers to withstand the next Ukrainian offensive.
And western support won’t crack, because the war is on the back burner for.most.
So the West will keep upping the ante,while Russia grows weaker.
Putin called up a draft and transferred to a war economy half a year too late. His economy nose-dived in Jan 2023.
As always, he dithered until it was far too late.
Yes the Russian invasion started in 2014, shortly after the annexation of Crimea. Russia thus violated both the earlier Budapest Memoramdum, and the Minsk agreements. All this was reported, so your clams about the western narative being untrue, is itself untrue. Your claim of deception is itself a deception.
Tell the Ukranians to negotiate, you say. That is just Kremlinspeak for appease. Which indeed makes you a Putin apologist, despite your dishonest denial.
And actually Ukraine did offer neutrality if Russia called off the invasion, but Russia refused. Indicating its real motives have nothinig to do with security, everything to do with imperialism.
Most Russians are unaware of both the near obliteration of their regular army and the extremely poor training of their recent “mobiks” When they finally find out, Putin is doomed.
The Russian offensive is going nowhere. It will instead result in far fewer soldiers to withstand the next Ukrainian offensive.
And western support won’t crack, because the war is on the back burner for.most.
So the West will keep upping the ante,while Russia grows weaker.
Putin called up a draft and transferred to a war economy half a year too late. His economy nose-dived in Jan 2023.
As always, he dithered until it was far too late.
Hi G. Kaminskas, for me this was an absorbing, insightful, multi-layered analysis exploring geopolitical complexity, which must surely lie at the heart of most if not every conflict or war, wouldn’t you say?
Well said. Ignore the nameless downvotes.
While I don’t share your endorsement of the above post, your second sentence deserves to become a mantra. Funny that you’ve gathered net downvotes for your short reply.
Again, let me agree with another commenter who requested posted tallies for both upvotes and downvotes, so the level of engagement (or provocation or unpopularity) is a bit more evident. Because though I shouldn’t care and I don’t comment with a focus on getting a green thumb, it’d be nice to know whether one’s comment was, for example, “booed” by all 5 who voted or cheered by 35 and booed by 40.
While I don’t share your endorsement of the above post, your second sentence deserves to become a mantra. Funny that you’ve gathered net downvotes for your short reply.
Again, let me agree with another commenter who requested posted tallies for both upvotes and downvotes, so the level of engagement (or provocation or unpopularity) is a bit more evident. Because though I shouldn’t care and I don’t comment with a focus on getting a green thumb, it’d be nice to know whether one’s comment was, for example, “booed” by all 5 who voted or cheered by 35 and booed by 40.
Perhaps if the article’s author could somehow use the word ‘ontological’ a few more times it would be more convincing.
This Arta Moeini should change the name of his organisation to The Institute for Appeasement Diplomacy.
Seems balanced and reasonable to me. Even if you are right, for you, then can you not appreciate the view from the other side. Which with the MSM being so univiewed is the main reason I come to Unherd.
This deranged madman narrative no longer fits what we’re hearing from NATO. At this point they have admitted that this war began in 2014, and that the Minsk agreements, overseen by the Germans and French were just a delay tactic to further arm up Ukraine. That information was hidden from you and me at the start by our own side. Also, the information from our side (the West) was that since he was a madman he was hell bent on invading all of Europe, and yet this last week the Joint Chiefs chairman Mark Milley told the Financial Times that “neither side is likely to prevail” and that it will most probably end in negotiations. Which is it, a madman hell bent on expansionism or something neither side can win and that they expect Russia to negotiate an end to? Yet again, we’re finding out the narratives on our side weren’t true….
Same with the reports that Ukraine is about to start to win any day now, or that they could ever win…. They didn’t tell us that there was not enough ammo in NATO or the US to sustain this war, and that we also didn’t have the capacity to ramp up and create enough for them or apparently for ourselves at this point….
Also we were told that the sanctions were going to destroy the Russian economy… that was a huge backfire too… it really messed things up here in Europe…
We’re the ones who have been told lie after lie demonstrably so to anyone who’s been keeping up with the statements, confessions, and revelations from our own side.
Basically, from an informed viewpoint we need to try and exit everyone from this thing, tell the Ukrainians to negotiate ASAP, because we were lied to, this US politician driven policy to fight to the last Ukrainian is ridiculous and evil…
What we have now is enough Russian troops massed with enough weapons, and a wartime artillery and missile manufacturing base in Russia to sustain a 30 month war. Many of Europe’s own nations have admitted that they have enough supplies to last about 3 days. Since I live in Europe, I would prefer not to have to learn Russian. The clowns need to stop with their War Pigs (cue the old Black Sabbath tune) policies. The US and NATO could not currently win a war. This is not the same as fighting poorly armed islamic people somewhere. This is a real military power the currently has more ground troups (many with experience) that is currently much larger than the US or all the NATO members combined could muster… This is a no brainer… We all need to demand that the US and NATO call to an end to this war! It’s us who owe Ukrian an apology for letting so much more ground be taken and so many of them die by Borris telling them that they should not negotiate neutrality last Spring.
Yet again, more lies by our side…NATO’s (US driven) expansionist policies driven by the US military insdustrial complex that wants endless wars… They even blew up German pipelines (you still don’t beleive the lies that Russia blew up the pipeline do you?), not caring how German middle class, their industries, thier future would do without energy! Who’s the thug hell bent on expansion? Who are the ones who don’t care about our own lives? Who are the lying liers? Don’t trust Russia? Thats’ fine, but trusting the people in charge of all of the dishonest narratives on our own side of the issue is even more foolish.
Yet somehow I doubt people who get red faced and call people a Putin apologist at the hint of any disagreement with the narratives are capable of understanding how much the narratives on our own side have been shown to be deceptions.
Hi G. Kaminskas, for me this was an absorbing, insightful, multi-layered analysis exploring geopolitical complexity, which must surely lie at the heart of most if not every conflict or war, wouldn’t you say?
Well said. Ignore the nameless downvotes.
Perhaps if the article’s author could somehow use the word ‘ontological’ a few more times it would be more convincing.
This article is garbage, and if you keep publishing this Putin-apologist trash, you’ll lose me as a subscriber, and probably many more clear thinkers too. The last paragraph sounds like it was drafted in the Kremlin. So does this Putin-apologist rubbish from a few months ago, by the same author: « With each of these conflicts, the coverage gets worse, and the traps become ever more luring and incendiary. In each case, a narrative is constructed and transposed over the reporting, reinforced by sensationalist imagery that could rationalise an intervention and perhaps military action. But none compares to Ukraine. Here, we have witnessed the media of the Free World disseminating dishonest or otherwise uncritical coverage, fake news, Ukrainian disinformation, and propaganda aimed at conditioning the public to internalise the establishment’s Manichean narrative of a deranged madman’s random war of aggression. »