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The madness behind the battle for Bakhmut Russian troops are dying in their thousands here

A civilian in Bakhmut last month (DIMITAR DILKOFF/AFP via Getty Images)

A civilian in Bakhmut last month (DIMITAR DILKOFF/AFP via Getty Images)


February 6, 2023   8 mins

“The objective for today is to come back alive.” Yevgeny is a young commando from the “Mad Pack”, a special forces unit that has been fighting in Bakhmut since November. His words are familiar — lacquered with that mix of emotions common to almost all soldiers fighting on the frontlines of war: laughter and unease. We clamber into a Land Cruiser and head toward the city. “The situation is always changing,” he continues. “But one thing remains the same: the line of contact is always active.”

Even by the standards of eastern Ukraine, Bakhmut is a hellscape of destruction. Electricity has been out since August and water since October. Rows of uniform Soviet-style buildings now resemble a series of ragged molars, mottled by shells and blackened with soot.

The streets of this city that once had a population of 70,000 are almost empty of civilians, save for the odd elderly man or woman who ambles past amid the constant drum of nearby shelling. Everywhere I look I see soldiers: standing guard, advancing forwards, taking cover, congregating in doorways and behind walls, and almost always smoking. Our first port of call is a mosque. A small squat rectangular box that could be a normal house save for a small golden dome on its roof. Kazbek, a Chechen soldier fighting for Ukraine, who is our guide with Yevgeny, gets out of the car and goes to pray, bowing to Mecca as shells explode around us.

If you want to discover the madness of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, come to Bakhmut. The battle for the city is now the longest of the war. Russia launched a large offensive to try to take it in July 2022 after it took Severodonetsk, the final major city of the Luhansk region. The truth is Russian troops are dying in their thousands here — and possibly for nothing. The UK Ministry of Defence has outlined Bakhmut’s “limited operational value”: the city’s fall would be useful, but by no means decisive, in helping Russia press further through the Donbas. The fight, therefore, has become almost symbolic. “Bakhmut holds” is now a rallying cry for Ukrainians.

We advance further into the city. I see my first civilian vehicle: a minibus covered in grime, onto which someone has painted a white cross. Then we see an old man walking on the pavement. Yevgeny asks why he hasn’t left. “Where would I go?” he responds. He tells me that he lives with some friends in the city and has a stove and a basement to hide in. We turn a corner, and the Land Cruiser skids across the wet and pitted road. “The full contact front is just there,” says Yevgeny, pointing. Kazbek explains what this means: “The Russians are just 200 metres down that road. Tomorrow, I will come back and kill them.”

Shelling is a constant refrain in Bakhmut. But this close it’s different. Shells whistle around me, deep throaty roars that crescendo to a colossal bang as they strike home. “Now the Russians are attacking Ukrainian positions from three sides,” says Kazbek by way of explanation. We climb back into the Land Cruiser and drive into what appears to be a fenced-off wasteland right by the line of contact. On a wall some graffiti reads, “the republic of Ichkeria [Chechnya] will be free. Russians will be dead.” A lone cyclist comes into view. “Stupid,” says Yevgeny.

We drive out into what is left of the main road, until we stop by the city’s monument of a MIG 17 fighter jet. “This used to be a famous Instagram spot,” says my photographer Nata. I recently sprained my ankle so I am hobbling slightly, though my support boot means I can walk almost normally. I pose by the plane, resting gingerly on my foot. Kazbek laughs. I remember his words when we met: “I’ve never seen anyone come to the front with a crutch before.

Eventually, Kazbek decides it’s time to return to base. “There are,” he excitedly explains, “two roads to get out. The one that is constantly shelled much more interesting, so let’s take that!” Nata looks less than impressed. As we drive down the road, I see holes carved out by shells and burned-out vehicles. War zones can assume many shapes: sometimes they’re cratered and grey like the surface of the moon; other times they are just a mesh of urban destruction. Bakhmut resembles the bottom of the ocean, the tangled vehicles like metal crustaceans hugging the seabed, silent witnesses to it all.

***

The Mad Pack live in a base swaddled in concrete where they spend most of their lives underground to avoid the shelling. It’s a no-frills affair. My bed is a door laid on the concrete floor with a sleeping bag on it, while Nata sleeps on a plastic waterbed to my right. We are divided by a anti-tank Javelin case. In the corner of the room stands one of the many NLAWs that Britain has delivered to Ukraine. “God bless the United Kingdom; God bless Boris Johnson!” says Kazbek to me as we pose with one.

The night before we entered Bakhmut, I met “Ivan”, the unit’s commander, whose call sign is Coyote. We were in an underground room amid piles of cardboard boxes, a mound of firewood, a wooden stove of the kind you see everywhere on the front in Ukraine and, the focal point of the room, a chess set that the soldiers take turns to use. Coyote is 34 and has been fighting since the war began in 2014. His unit is Special Forces, he says. He can’t give me details about their operations, but he has two units on rotation. His main tasks are planning and special ops — taking the fight to the enemy.

Bakhmut is important to Russia because of Putin’s “populist needs”, he says. “Since February 24, the Russians have had few victories and many defeats. They need this victory; the city is close to the border and to their logistics. They cannot attack Kherson [in the south] because of the river, and in other territories on the front lines they have supply problems. Bakhmut is the only spot where theoretically they can win. But if we were to lose Bakhmut, then speaking without emotion, it would not be a strategic defeat, we’d just lose a town. But in the meantime, we tie up a large force of Russians so they cannot proceed in other areas. We buy time for other Ukrainian forces.”

The situation is difficult, he admits, but controlled. The Ukrainians have suffered significant losses, as have the enemy. “They are going building-by-building. They are trying to encircle us; they keep trying again and again.”

The Russian tactics are based on what I hear described as “meat waves” of soldiers, usually conscripts or prisoners fighting for the Wagner mercenary group who are promised a pardon in the unlikely event they survive more than six months here. The Ukrainians often wipe them out. But more always come. It’s the downside of fighting an enemy with a population three times the size and little regard for the lives of its citizens. “The waves can unnerve the new guys,” says Coyote. “They destroy the first one and then more keep coming; they start to think it will never end. The experienced guys just swap their rifle for a machine gun and it’s all good!”

But the fight is tough. Russian forces have now secured northern access to the city and also recently made a breakthrough on the south towards the centre. They have surrounded the town and have fire control of the only road out. Coyote, though, remains bullish. From November to the beginning of January, the Ukrainians lost about 10 positions; since then, they have lost only four. “The artillery and drones are working,” he says. I ask him about their use of drones, the biggest change in the war since I was here last in the spring. Coyote smiles, gets up and returns, grinning even more, with a small blue object — a six-inch rocket with three fins topped with a golden dome. “We make it on a 3D printer. It costs about $30,” he tells me with pride. “We fill it with explosives, and then put it in one of our drones… and drop.”

One of the other officers, who gave his name as his call sign “Barman”, explains their importance. “A while ago we used big, expensive tactical drones, made especially for the military,” he tells me. “But now, small and medium-sized civilian drones are becoming separate military units because they can cause great damage to the enemy.”

He continues. “It used to take months, sometimes years, to train people to go into enemy territory and send in the coordinates for the artillery to fire. Now, one civilian drone can do it. It saves lives and even if it gets destroyed you can buy a new one cheaply. We have learned how to attach small grenades and bombs to them. Now we can send up a small $3,000 Mavik 3 with a grenade — and if you drop it perfectly on a T-90 you can take out a tank that costs millions.” His words bring home a truth that has gradually dawned on me over the past few years. Talk of future war tends to be dominated by AI and visions of marauding robot soldiers, but what I see here is something different: the weaponisation of the quotidian. Cheap drones you can buy online, and plastic projectiles you can knock out on a printer in your living room, are now affecting the balance of power in conflict.

Coyote gives me his final assessment. “I think the battle will continue for about one or two months unless there is a major encirclement or something unexpected happens — it will go street by street; the artillery will slowly destroy all the tall buildings and it will [descend to] urban warfare. It will crawl to an end.” As we finish, I ask him what he would say to Putin if he were here now. “One second,” he says and gets up. He returns with a pistol and pulls the trigger. Its click reverberates around the room. “I’d say nothing — just kill him.”

Later, Coyote is in a playful mood. “What we sometimes also do,” he tells me, “is drop dildos from the drones, just to show them the contempt we have for them. Also, it’s a taste of what’s coming to them — how we’re going to fuck them.” I ask what happens if they hit a Russian soldier on the head. Everyone laughs. Coyote, still looking mischievous, describes how they sometimes find lists of “heroic deaths” written on the walls of Russian positions they capture. “You know, they have a photo of the guy and under it ‘Vlad was killed by a Bayraktar’ and so on…. Imagine: ‘Here lies Sergei — he was killed by a massive cock.’”

***

Dinner is served. In a bucket on the floor, Kazbek washes his hands, observing Muslim custom. In the kitchen, an older man carrying a large knife, which is definitely not designed for cooking, hands me a bowl of soup. Our meal is laid out on a long table: eggs, tomato with grated cheese, cold chicken, pancake rolls, sausages, several plates of bread, a potato salad, egg with garlic, another plate of cold meats, and a plate of sliced lemon. All this comes from Ukrainian volunteers, adds Kazbek.

Yevgeny interrupts the meal to show us his war wounds. He gets out his phone and opens Instagram. A photo shows him with two pieces of shrapnel, one each in his head and leg. He explains how he posted the image and then blocked all his relatives from seeing it. “It happened on the first day of the war — 24 February! You know the funniest thing? That’s also my birthday. From now on… it’s two birthdays for me!”

Dinner ends and the soldiers leave to wind down. Me and Nata are left. She’s been discussing the cultural aspect of the war with Yevgeny and Kazbek because it’s a war not just against Ukrainian territory but against its very essence as a nation. Putin says there is no such thing as Ukraine, which means everything from its language to its history and literature must be denied. “For years we were told Ukrainian was just for peasants and Russian was for the sophisticated,” she says. “I see Russians and they can barely speak it. I can live without ​​Dostoevsky. Look at Crime and Punishment, Raskolnikoff kills an old woman for money and then spends the entire book trying to work out why he did it. I’ll tell you why he did it: because he’s trash.”

After dinner, we sit in the communal area. I look around at these men, some of whom have been fighting for almost a decade. They are tired but undiminished: this fight is existential for them. Tendrils of cigarette smoke curl towards the ceiling. The soft shuffle of moving chess pieces is almost finished. Kazbek has composed a song about Bakhmut. Yevgeny gets out a guitar and starts to sing.

Bakhmut, Bakhmut you are so proud and so brave
you left your mark on fate.
Bakhmut Bakhmut, the enemy has come leaving ruin
But we are all waiting…
for a new dawn in Ukraine.


David Patrikarakos is UnHerd‘s foreign correspondent. His latest book is War in 140 characters: how social media is reshaping conflict in the 21st century. (Hachette)

dpatrikarakos

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Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

Thanks for the front line coverage. It resonates.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago

“It resonates”
I think you mean ‘It reverberates- conclusively’, the drumbeat of modern war.

Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago

If by “resonates” you mean “reads like pro-Nazi, anti-Russian propaganda and outright lies” then I agree. If any of you want a more accurate idea of what’s going on in this war, try “the duran” for some more evidence-based commentary.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

It is a truly revolting article – and when your post was the only one here I wrote a long one explaining why – nothing offensive, but naturally it is deleted – the heads at Unherd are no different than any MSM in reality. Total Pu** ies and too afraid of free speech to go against the agenda.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

IOW, the only “free speech” is YOUR speech.
All else is controlled by the MSM.
You DO know where that comes from don’t you? And where it leads?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Garbage!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I think you are flagging it. You are a right pain in the arse.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Free speech is “a pain the arse,” isn’t it?
If yours was the only voice we would all be happy.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Problem is mate, you are the one that thinks it shouldnt be allowed. That only your comments should be allowed. I haven’t ever flagged or complained to unherd about you. I’ve never flagged anyone.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Problem is mate, you are the one that thinks it shouldnt be allowed. That only your comments should be allowed. I haven’t ever flagged or complained to unherd about you. I’ve never flagged anyone.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Free speech is “a pain the arse,” isn’t it?
If yours was the only voice we would all be happy.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Garbage!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I think you are flagging it. You are a right pain in the arse.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Whereas you are a fighter for truth and peace–and anyone who brings up inconvenient facts is a troll.
One alternative might be to address the issues raised, and stop the accusations.
Just a suggestion…

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Everytime I do that you resort to telling me you have no choice but to attack and me and wolfowitz will be happy together. You can’t have a sensible conversation. You have said awful stuff about both ukrainians and Russians.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Everytime I do that you resort to telling me you have no choice but to attack and me and wolfowitz will be happy together. You can’t have a sensible conversation. You have said awful stuff about both ukrainians and Russians.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

IOW, the only “free speech” is YOUR speech.
All else is controlled by the MSM.
You DO know where that comes from don’t you? And where it leads?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Whereas you are a fighter for truth and peace–and anyone who brings up inconvenient facts is a troll.
One alternative might be to address the issues raised, and stop the accusations.
Just a suggestion…

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago

“Russian troops are dying in their thousands”
And from what I’ve read elsewhere (not Russian propaganda) Ukrainian troops are dying in their tens of thousands.
The real story is here, but unintentionally. There’s the fact a brave (or mad) journalist was able to get to Bakhmut.
“Russia is attacking on three sides” – in other words, the Russians almost surround the city.
“Bakhmut has no operational significance” – then why defend it?
Anyone who has listened to the knowledgeable on Russia’s approach, knows that they favour creating “cauldrons”. Bakhmut appears to be one example.
And while the Russians create their cauldron at the speed of molasses they use artillery to annihilate Ukraine’s youth. Those that still remain in Ukraine at least.
“The Russians need this victory”
Not really. The Russians are using Bakhmut to entice Ukraine to send more troops to a place with “no operational significance” in order to destroy Ukraine’s remaining forces, prior to a late winter/early spring offensive.
Between 500,000 and 700,000 Russian troops have been assembled in three locations around Ukraine ready for their final onslaught. Bakhmut is a side-show.
This war, as with all others, is filled with propaganda and lies. For example, I heard recently from a previously trusted source, that Zelensky couldn’t even speak Ukrainian before he became President. Surely that can’t be true.

Rupert Steel
Rupert Steel
1 year ago
Reply to  M VC14

It really doesn’t matter how many troops Russia assembles. From the very start of Putin’s war, the incompetence of the Russian military leadership ensures their defeat. The Russian general staff are incapable of planning large-scale manoeuvre operations using combined arms. We’re already seeing a precursor to a Russian civil war through the interplay and tensions between the Russian Army and Wagner. Anyway, the Russians seem to have run out of T72s and are resorting to a mix of T62s and a very few much later T90s. Without tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, poorly trained men armed only with AK 47s have absolutely no chance of survival, they will just be scythed down. As this writer sees it, the risk to the well-equipped and well-trained Ukrainians comes from their psychological ability to continue with the slaughter. German formations in WW2 would collapse after being subjected to up to five Soviet assaults with horrific casualties on the Red Army side. Even the battle-hardened Wehrmacht simply couldn’t take it. For us in the West, the profligacy of the Russian leadership with their manpower is inconceivable and utterly shocking. All this from a country with a declining population as a result of a birth-rate below replacement. No wonder the Russians are estimated to have stolen large numbers of Ukrainian children. The Russians are covering their own losses in anticipation. Totally amoral and totally cynical.

Rupert Steel
Rupert Steel
1 year ago
Reply to  M VC14

It really doesn’t matter how many troops Russia assembles. From the very start of Putin’s war, the incompetence of the Russian military leadership ensures their defeat. The Russian general staff are incapable of planning large-scale manoeuvre operations using combined arms. We’re already seeing a precursor to a Russian civil war through the interplay and tensions between the Russian Army and Wagner. Anyway, the Russians seem to have run out of T72s and are resorting to a mix of T62s and a very few much later T90s. Without tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, poorly trained men armed only with AK 47s have absolutely no chance of survival, they will just be scythed down. As this writer sees it, the risk to the well-equipped and well-trained Ukrainians comes from their psychological ability to continue with the slaughter. German formations in WW2 would collapse after being subjected to up to five Soviet assaults with horrific casualties on the Red Army side. Even the battle-hardened Wehrmacht simply couldn’t take it. For us in the West, the profligacy of the Russian leadership with their manpower is inconceivable and utterly shocking. All this from a country with a declining population as a result of a birth-rate below replacement. No wonder the Russians are estimated to have stolen large numbers of Ukrainian children. The Russians are covering their own losses in anticipation. Totally amoral and totally cynical.

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago

lies and huge propaganda against Russia from a greek american “patriot” of the most warlike country in the world!! USA= participates in 80% of the wars in Latin America and in the world….toppled governments and prepared coups in hundreds countries…worst propaganda since the Vietnam era!!! ..in the first place, what do the residents, the people in eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine want???..look and thnk at the results of the presidential elections 2004 or 2010… :comment image or look with percentages 95% 85% 65% what the people of the south-coastal-eastern Ukraine and Crimea want :comment image …before the armed fascist American coup d’état of 2014, where the right-wing nationalist right-Nazi alliance took power….like Poland-Baltics, 11 parties were banned (all left-wing, communist .. pro-Russian with the biggest party before 2014 !!!.. there are no more free elections .. only pro-American parties participate in the electoral game…) .. but Ukraine is neither Poland nor the Baltics .. not even Hungary ….. in eastern southern Ukraine there are a majority of Russians .. but also Ukrainian leftists, democrats .. anti-fascist Ukrainians ….in Ukraine there is a civil war from 2014 with 14,000 dead and 1,500,000 refugees …most eastern Ukrainians and southern Ukrainians (leftists, communists, general democrats, anti-fascists, Russians or Russian-speakers. Greeks,Μayars , national minorities, etc.) .. … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country after the armed coup in Ukraine in 2014 we do not have free democratic elections but the US nationalist puppets ruled … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country …. they expelled all the old officers – civil servants and placed young people everywhere with a qualification: they are nationalists – members of far-right groups ..in the army, in the state, in the diplomatic corps, in the municipalities ..everywhere ……the solution was: the Minsk Peace Agreement 2015 under the auspices of Germany-France-Russia …. did not sign it – it was abotaged by the US-England and their puppets….sabotage the Minsk Peace Accords 2015 ( the Minsk Agreement 2 : 1) free local elections with all parties (11 parties are banned after 2014) 2) federations in as many areas as they want = more democracies 3) neutralization = more money for society) … far-right nationalists ucranians for 8 years they built huge fortifications, cities fortresses with American money, American aid and know-how ….. For 8 years far-right nationalists could save peace and country but they obeyed the interests of the USAs WASPs …for 8 years oppress, torture, kill left-wing Ukrainians, Russians, Russian-speakers and minorities !! dozens of political prisoners labeled traitors or spies or communists or dissidents !! and all this with the blessings of the West !! for 8 years huge economic disaster for the Ukrainian economy …. 1 in 2 ucrainians workers left abroad (10 million, 1.2 million in Russia and 8 million in the west) ..and yet they continued the small war 2014-2021 and built hundreds fortress and fortifications !!!usefulle far-right nationalists ucranians destroyed their own homeland, destroyed since 2014 the unity of a united Ukraine!…. Ukrainians weren’t fighting for their homeland…The separatists of eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine were fighting for their homeland!!..a Ukrainian soldier is coming from hundreds of kilometers away (Lvov-Dοnietsk) 1,000 km distance!!!!! …the war is taking place in pro-Russian cities, villages, regions!!! the separatists were fighting, they are destroying their cities, their villages, their jobs..their properties..their children are in danger!!!…the Ukrainians are oppresser..occupation forces!!!! ..who will pay war reparations for the pro-Russian cities, villages, regions of the Autonomists?dangerous useful idiots who brought us closer to a world nuclear war … usefulle far-right nationalists criminals I have relatives in Ukraine … I expected from 2016 that Russia would intervene … I knew from the inside but I watched what was happening in Ukraine !!!..crimes, huge fear, a theater of absurdity as the Americans understand democracy (Latin style America-South Vietnam-South Korea-Taiwan etc) … how many Orthodox priests of the Patriarchate of Moscow have the nationalists murdered ???….only in the last months of 2022, 53 priests are in prison with the accusations of being above her of Russia and against the politics (nationalism) of the Kiev regime…..the Americans here too are lying but they are also the murderers…their purpose???…..to bleed, to weaken Russia, to exist hatred and blood between brotherly peoples and to subjugate all of Europe politically and economically (Germany-France, etc.)

Last edited 1 year ago by George Georgiadis
Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
1 year ago

“It resonates”
I think you mean ‘It reverberates- conclusively’, the drumbeat of modern war.

Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago

If by “resonates” you mean “reads like pro-Nazi, anti-Russian propaganda and outright lies” then I agree. If any of you want a more accurate idea of what’s going on in this war, try “the duran” for some more evidence-based commentary.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

It is a truly revolting article – and when your post was the only one here I wrote a long one explaining why – nothing offensive, but naturally it is deleted – the heads at Unherd are no different than any MSM in reality. Total Pu** ies and too afraid of free speech to go against the agenda.

M VC14
M VC14
1 year ago

“Russian troops are dying in their thousands”
And from what I’ve read elsewhere (not Russian propaganda) Ukrainian troops are dying in their tens of thousands.
The real story is here, but unintentionally. There’s the fact a brave (or mad) journalist was able to get to Bakhmut.
“Russia is attacking on three sides” – in other words, the Russians almost surround the city.
“Bakhmut has no operational significance” – then why defend it?
Anyone who has listened to the knowledgeable on Russia’s approach, knows that they favour creating “cauldrons”. Bakhmut appears to be one example.
And while the Russians create their cauldron at the speed of molasses they use artillery to annihilate Ukraine’s youth. Those that still remain in Ukraine at least.
“The Russians need this victory”
Not really. The Russians are using Bakhmut to entice Ukraine to send more troops to a place with “no operational significance” in order to destroy Ukraine’s remaining forces, prior to a late winter/early spring offensive.
Between 500,000 and 700,000 Russian troops have been assembled in three locations around Ukraine ready for their final onslaught. Bakhmut is a side-show.
This war, as with all others, is filled with propaganda and lies. For example, I heard recently from a previously trusted source, that Zelensky couldn’t even speak Ukrainian before he became President. Surely that can’t be true.

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago

lies and huge propaganda against Russia from a greek american “patriot” of the most warlike country in the world!! USA= participates in 80% of the wars in Latin America and in the world….toppled governments and prepared coups in hundreds countries…worst propaganda since the Vietnam era!!! ..in the first place, what do the residents, the people in eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine want???..look and thnk at the results of the presidential elections 2004 or 2010… :comment image or look with percentages 95% 85% 65% what the people of the south-coastal-eastern Ukraine and Crimea want :comment image …before the armed fascist American coup d’état of 2014, where the right-wing nationalist right-Nazi alliance took power….like Poland-Baltics, 11 parties were banned (all left-wing, communist .. pro-Russian with the biggest party before 2014 !!!.. there are no more free elections .. only pro-American parties participate in the electoral game…) .. but Ukraine is neither Poland nor the Baltics .. not even Hungary ….. in eastern southern Ukraine there are a majority of Russians .. but also Ukrainian leftists, democrats .. anti-fascist Ukrainians ….in Ukraine there is a civil war from 2014 with 14,000 dead and 1,500,000 refugees …most eastern Ukrainians and southern Ukrainians (leftists, communists, general democrats, anti-fascists, Russians or Russian-speakers. Greeks,Μayars , national minorities, etc.) .. … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country after the armed coup in Ukraine in 2014 we do not have free democratic elections but the US nationalist puppets ruled … the extreme right, anti-Russian, nationalist rulers in the country …. they expelled all the old officers – civil servants and placed young people everywhere with a qualification: they are nationalists – members of far-right groups ..in the army, in the state, in the diplomatic corps, in the municipalities ..everywhere ……the solution was: the Minsk Peace Agreement 2015 under the auspices of Germany-France-Russia …. did not sign it – it was abotaged by the US-England and their puppets….sabotage the Minsk Peace Accords 2015 ( the Minsk Agreement 2 : 1) free local elections with all parties (11 parties are banned after 2014) 2) federations in as many areas as they want = more democracies 3) neutralization = more money for society) … far-right nationalists ucranians for 8 years they built huge fortifications, cities fortresses with American money, American aid and know-how ….. For 8 years far-right nationalists could save peace and country but they obeyed the interests of the USAs WASPs …for 8 years oppress, torture, kill left-wing Ukrainians, Russians, Russian-speakers and minorities !! dozens of political prisoners labeled traitors or spies or communists or dissidents !! and all this with the blessings of the West !! for 8 years huge economic disaster for the Ukrainian economy …. 1 in 2 ucrainians workers left abroad (10 million, 1.2 million in Russia and 8 million in the west) ..and yet they continued the small war 2014-2021 and built hundreds fortress and fortifications !!!usefulle far-right nationalists ucranians destroyed their own homeland, destroyed since 2014 the unity of a united Ukraine!…. Ukrainians weren’t fighting for their homeland…The separatists of eastern-southern-coastal Ukraine were fighting for their homeland!!..a Ukrainian soldier is coming from hundreds of kilometers away (Lvov-Dοnietsk) 1,000 km distance!!!!! …the war is taking place in pro-Russian cities, villages, regions!!! the separatists were fighting, they are destroying their cities, their villages, their jobs..their properties..their children are in danger!!!…the Ukrainians are oppresser..occupation forces!!!! ..who will pay war reparations for the pro-Russian cities, villages, regions of the Autonomists?dangerous useful idiots who brought us closer to a world nuclear war … usefulle far-right nationalists criminals I have relatives in Ukraine … I expected from 2016 that Russia would intervene … I knew from the inside but I watched what was happening in Ukraine !!!..crimes, huge fear, a theater of absurdity as the Americans understand democracy (Latin style America-South Vietnam-South Korea-Taiwan etc) … how many Orthodox priests of the Patriarchate of Moscow have the nationalists murdered ???….only in the last months of 2022, 53 priests are in prison with the accusations of being above her of Russia and against the politics (nationalism) of the Kiev regime…..the Americans here too are lying but they are also the murderers…their purpose???…..to bleed, to weaken Russia, to exist hatred and blood between brotherly peoples and to subjugate all of Europe politically and economically (Germany-France, etc.)

Last edited 1 year ago by George Georgiadis
Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago

Thanks for the front line coverage. It resonates.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

To me, this was a worthwhile peek inside the eye of the storm. The article is quite openly biased, as a piece of embedded journalism, or any non-fringe Western view of this conflict is likely to be. I’m fine with that. I could access ultra-right-wing media or even Russian propaganda for “balance” if I were so inclined and had better firewalls on my pc.
Or I can be exposed to some offshoot of Russian State TV by certain prominent commenters here. Why is it that those of a nationalistic or even Western Chauvinist bent are often such easy fans of this Soviet-revivalist Russian regime? (I think I’m correct to find significant overlap there). Is it part of a reflexive opposition to any stance that is seen as mainstream or liberal/progressive?
Certainly this war is hellish and not really good for anyone, and this article doesn’t run from that, sympathetic bias notwithstanding. But this fight is undoubtedly, understandably–and by demonstrated sacrifice and valor (on the whole)–preferable to non-existence from a Ukrainian perspective. And Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status as the geographically largest nation on the globe. The only increased threat would be, perhaps, to Putin himself, who would have been better off even from a calculating, self-interested point-of-view if he’d let this one go to begin with.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status…”
The same could be said about NATO and America as well. Thirty years of warnings that Ukraine was the red line have been brushed aside by the West, and this is the provocation that has produced Putin’s response. To see this, one would have to understand that the Imperial West cannot be trusted. Our own history of multiple invasions and regime change efforts–let alone the colonialist history of key EU states–confirms this. There is no innocent intent when it comes to the deceptions and bad behavior on the part of this western Offensive (not defensive) alliance.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

No. Ending it on the Ukraine-Western side means the end of Ukraine in any meaningful sense. Ending it from the Russian side means the non-increase (or in their view, non-recovery) of Russian soil, stopping the bloodbath and helping to curtail Putin’s imperial ambitions. It is Putin who has brushed aside warnings and miscalculated. Let him have this one you seem to say, in the interest of a tense a servile peace. How about the next one?
Yes, the US has an imperial past and present but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898. And when we go into places around the globe and try to control or “Americanize” them more recently that doesn’t really work out well in the long run does it? This intervention is a far more legitimate defense of Western interests or Ukrainian national sovereignty than the weak pretense of Kuwaiti sovereignty made for Desert Storm in 1990. Or of mostly-futile nation-building efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.
I’d like to know from some/any among the multitude of anti-Ukraine-intervention voices here: Are you just against intervention, or actively rooting for a decrease in US world power and consequent increase in the power of Russia and China?
Because I’m not an unqualified supporter of American power and influence, but I’ll take it over the plausible alternatives.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Geez.. you guys are suckers for the MSM.. the US has effectively annexed almost every nation on Earth (except the BRICS) via neo liberalism.. much easier than neocolonialism in turn much easier than colonialism..
Don’t you find it odd that while you are happy to stay with American hegemony the BRICS nations, most of Africa, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and now much of Latin America have had enough!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Wow, so when the EU does things the US doesn’t like, or the UK doesn’t, it’s all just a conspiracy to hide the fact the US pulls the all strings.
And this ingenious master mind who controls most of the first world is…
Joe Biden?!?

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If you prefer BRICS, why aren’t you living in one of them? I love how these people living in North America and Europe are so against their own countries, but wouldn’t dream of living in the ones they promote all the time as a better alternative. DUH.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Wow, so when the EU does things the US doesn’t like, or the UK doesn’t, it’s all just a conspiracy to hide the fact the US pulls the all strings.
And this ingenious master mind who controls most of the first world is…
Joe Biden?!?

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If you prefer BRICS, why aren’t you living in one of them? I love how these people living in North America and Europe are so against their own countries, but wouldn’t dream of living in the ones they promote all the time as a better alternative. DUH.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have a very conflicted view to all this. Let me try and lay it out. Because I have been pretty anti us. But I have also been anti russia and China. So.
I’m pissed at the us for its lies over Iraq, im slightly aggravated by the fact its multinationals have made a lot of money in China, we have off shored everything there and now all of a sudden its no good, we must stop dealing with them. A bit like the Russian energy. Same idea. Let’s do it, actually no. That’s going to cause carnage. All you old people have bought Chinese goods then turn round to young people and say actually no, we’ve given the crazy communists too much money and we must fight them. OK. Great, thanks guys.
I don’t like how your fbi etc censor twitter etc etc I don’t like the way you just constantly use qe as an answer.
Next. The ccp could well be responsible for covid, are probably as dodgy as every b*gger else just like the Russians. I am also very sceptical of their intentions.
If your a millennial all this is very confusing. Lies everywhere on all sides. Collapsing the current global order is f*cking worrying. Some people, like my good self just are wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict. You know. That’s all really. There is a few points to say the us hasn’t helped the situation. That’s not to say that the ccp and Russia aren’t also merrily causing carnage. Tbh they’re all at it and Europe is stuck in the middle, wondering how long until they all kick off properly and how bad it’s likely to be. In my humble opinion.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m actually pretty sympathetic to most of these points, although I don’t share all your demographics as a 50-ish male American born in Canada.
I’d like Europe to help lead the way to a less contentious world order, if possible. But most of the outspoken commenters here are, if not straight up rah rah pro-Brexit, suspicious of anything Continental or multi-lateral that seems to threaten local pubs and restaurants, familiar population makeup, etc. I’m not saying there aren’t complex and valid reasons to reject membership in the EU. But it’s a bit much to be a roaring Little England Brexiteer and then talk about the critical imperative of taming the American Beast (whenever such commenters are the same people-I admit I sometimes lose track).
The above is not meant to refer to your own views, and I’m not sure where you stand on all the recurring, ongoing world and UK-specific issues that come up here. I have noticed that you’re not easy to pin at one place on the political-cultural-philosophical spectrum, which I respect. I often disagree with you but can only conclude that your a thoughtful and worthy participant in the UnHerd.
“wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict”. Amen to that!
As much as I’m in sympathy with Ukraine’s cause, I am troubled by this escalation on both sides. (Let’s be honest, whatever the scales used, it isn’t unidirectional in either direction).
And while I remain very opinionated in my middle years, I try not to treat my opinions like religious beliefs, nor to believe everything I think, as if every passing thought were a gem.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, very fair, so l’ll do my best to sketch out how I see it. I am pro brexit. I wanted lizz truss and her free trade, low tax outward looking economy we were promised, trade with the world, take back control of our democracy, encourage tourists etc. I thought that was the vision anyway, it was bold, different, what we needed, a lot of people have forgotten that. We have now been robbed of that by a left leaning establishment (biden also stuck his oar in) and I am p*ssed off about it tbh. Good for her writing in the telegraph. We have lost two leaders trying to do what they were elected for and now have one we didn’t choose suffocating the economy. And now perhaps a breaking global order. So part of our brexit vision is in tatters, before we were allowed to even try it. The American stuff is the exported politics which are often aggressively funded, the US has become pretty hypocritical on so many issues, didn’t support brexit, lied to us over Iraq and Afghanistan, interfered in truss budget, not very democratic, major censorship issues, very poor management of the dollar and economy which is/has hurt everyone, 2008 wasn’t exactly because Americans has been responsible. I think they could tone down the free world nonsense a bit, they are hardly much better than anyone else.
I can see why I’m hard to pin down, they don’t make them like me very often, probably wise. I actually started posting because there didn’t seem to be any millennials on here, got spare time as my little one is on and off school. Ive read here for a long time, but in the comments a lot of people making assumptions about my generation. I’ve been challenging their perceptions and testing myself I suppose, bothering people that probably wish I would go away 🙂
I follow the fringe sites that do just business/ energy type news and have for years, so I’ve been joining in on all that. It’s quite funny some people think this is one of the only alternatives to msm. My parents live on a boat, it has its own little alternative type news community, I know a guy that runs a little news site from his boat and my partner knows another that hands out his own paper. I was a bit of an Alex jones kid, I know he is discredited but he certainly raised some questions about certain organisations, so how the world really works etc has always been an interest on and off. Its very much back on at the moment 🙂
I know there’s a million things I don’t know or understand so from my perspective I don’t think it’s always good to be too fixed in beliefs and idealogy, try and keep learning, be open to changing your mind all that. I do believe in free speech and not cancelling people left right and centre though. I think we are living in times when it feels like the world is getting smaller perhaps and people are not always free to speak, covid was very restrictive, and in times where how we act now, will have some serious consequences for years to come. Its all going at the moment 🙂
My main worry is the escalation, I feel awful for ukraine, I think the whole thing is just a mess.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m glad there’s a Millennial Presence (sounds like a New Age cult from the late 90s) here, especially with at least one person who’s not in lockstep with some reductive idea of what millennials are assumed to think.
I think at least a slight majority of people have some independence of mind, but they also want to belong somewhere, so they cluster in the tribes they were born into (ethnic, religious) or find camps of the seemingly like-minded (political, ideological) on their own, and surrender some of their own cognitive processes to the “hive mind”.
That’s actually not so bad to a degree, because a single person’s intellect and experience has limits, and because there’s too much information to process as a whole, and because information doesn’t lead straight to knowledge or understanding (“and because…”). But too many of us end up choosing our sides because of who we hate, crouching or lounging in warring camps that squawk at one another yet barely listen. It has always been this way to an extent, but we’re in a pretty divisive cultural moment. (Pretty sure that mid-16th Century Europe with its Christian-on-Christian sectarian violence had us beat for internal cultural division though).
Is the right-leaning establishment on the side of The People? Boris and Liz and Rishi? I’m still a bit amazed at working class people or even down-and-outers who who love Trump as if he is firmly one their side–the tax cheat who stiffs tradespeople on their pay whenever he can!–or anyone’s side but himself and his inner circle.
I do think even a good ideology (say altruism or humanism) that is rigidly fixed becomes an obstacle or a trap.
Though I’m not sad to see someone like Alex Jones lose prominence or a specific platform to shout from, I don’t believe in suppressing speech either, unless, for example, it is a clear incitement to specific violence or jeopardizes people by revealing certain personal or military details.
Most Americans don’t believe in prior censorship either. There is indeed a hyper-progressive or woke elite here that has departed from common sense and jumped way ahead of popular opinion, many among whom seem convinced they have a perfect new path that at this stage involves racializing everything and turning language into an easily triggered minefield of trauma and offense. But American is a big place, far more varied and a bit less crazy than it may appear from the outside–most places are. (In the case of Canada, where I like to remind people I was born, I think it’s quite a bit more crazy and less nice than people tend to assume–though still pretty nice eh).
Please don’t trust Alex Jones to tell you how the world really works ever again! That’s enough from me in what I intended as a brief reply. To be continued.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Lol, mention Alex jones and people run a mile, I love it. I do not rely on him to say how the world works, like I say, he’s discredited, reputation shredded, I suppose I’m trying to say when we were teenagers there was a lot of that stuff flying around the Internet, wiki leaks and all that, very little was censored, it was fun to read crazy theories, and that’s kind of what got me interested I suppose. He picked up on stuff like the un, trilateral commission etc etc that others never really discussed. That and arguing over radio four at work with my dad, who absolutely hates Alex jones – he happily told us not to be so bloody stupid and watch some proper news. Hence the shift to business type news now I’m a grown up 🙂

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Got it. That was meant mainly as a joke since your said you “were an Alex Jones kid” and you and your generation aren’t kids anymore. But I appreciate the re-assurance anyway.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

OK, just making sure, there’s so much crazy related to Alex jones David ike type media now, its a minefield.
On you earlier point about the economy, yes I am ‘working class’, but my dad ran a limited company for years, my partner and I with him later on. So I understand the difference corporation tax makes to small business. There seems to be a perception that all working class people work for others, in the construction industry (our area) this is very much not the case. We have to do books, tax, regulations too. So I can see how lowering taxes on business, cutting regulations etc leaves more for them to invest in innovation and hiring more people. Which improves the economy as a whole, bottom up. Really we need to be looking to encourage this reshoring business, putting high tax on business etc is not going to attract investment. I can understand her arguments, she does lay it out well in her essay. I can see why in America you cant understand why the working class would like boris, it seems you have a slightly different approach to class maybe, but most in our sort of tier value intelligence and education, we don’t hold it against the likes of boris and truss however they got it, all that matters is what they are saying and doing I suppose. I imagine it took some b*lls to try and change the status quo, so I admire truss for that too.
Hopefully my millennial presence isn’t too annoying 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I come from a large extended family of mostly small-business owners and salespeople on one side and farmers and small-time, small town business folk on the other. My dad, from the Canadian farmer side, became a carpenter and then a contractor after we moved to the States and I’ve done a fair amount of that work myself.
That’s why I’m kind of personally offended that Trump has stiffed so many contractors and by extension tradespeople, and dismayed at those who think he or Boris Johnson–sons of silver- spoon, high white privilege–are on their side in any real way.
Maybe the alternative looks worse, and many love the populist, stick-it-to-the-wokesters talk. But there hasn’t been much delivery–from either the left, right or center–on reducing corporatocracy or socioeconomic inequality has there?
I don’t want to mock and vilify those I disagree with anymore–I’ve done my share of that, and sometimes I still do it, regretably.
I see my real opponents as those on the far-far left and far-far right ends of the ideological spectrum–the ones typically most willing to kill or tyrannize for a creed. I’ve aged or perhaps matured into a place where I can see that most people have a combination of valid and understandable motives for their beliefs. No Single True Path can, or should prevail.
I don’t know if you can be made to stand in for all millennials, but I find your presence here welcome, and far from annoying.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, I think Boris appealed to brexit voters for a few reasons I think, he was in the leave campaign, he was part of an existing party that had a better chance of majority than ukip, he is intelligent, silver spoon yes, but that wasn’t the point, it’s the policies etc. If we start saying everyone born with a silver spoon doesn’t have the countries interests at heart well that’s getting a bit toward the lot that want to ‘remove the elite’. I like truss, she seems genuine, by holding the corporation tax rate etc. she wasn’t hurting small business she was helping them, which was/is in the interest of certain sections of the working class. Trump and that whole thing are a different kettle of fish I feel, your issues there are different to ours in many aspects I feel. Our government has really fluffed it now, there’s no denying it, lots of mistakes made but that doesn’t mean truss was wrong.
The corptocracy thing is making it as mainstream issue I think, and it’s not an easy one to tackle, corporations are now globalised, that whole business is also to an extent a different kettle of fish. Not really perhaps the fault of one government, just everything got really big, really fast, we seem to have got carried away with massive globalised business and institutions which add another layer of issues and sometimes corruption on top.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Boris is, in an IQ sense, intelligent–despite his buffoonery. Not dissimilar to Trump in that way. Both men seem pretty much all about themselves to me too, even by politician “standards”.
What did Johnson’s accomplish? How many consecutive years of Conservative rule will be needed for anything of substance to get done in the UK, or will those failures be blamed on a left-leaning elite no matter what?
Don’t mistake me for a left-wing partisan though: It’s not like I think Biden is wonderful, or thought (as an transatlantic observer) that Tony Blair was a great statesman either.
That’s part of the trouble for those of us who care, but land inside the fringes: Which establishment party or electable politicians are likely to do much good, or even oppose an entrenched status quo?
While I’m dispositionally opposed to bloody revolutions and violent ideological uprisings, I’m not a milquetoast all-is-well head-in-the-sand-man either. We need more non-idiotic voices and cooperative participation. Conscientious, concerted citizenship now (please)!

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I understand what you are saying about boris and Conservatives etc. You will have to bear in mind my memory/ knowledge of politics is no where near as good as some here. British politics I think got a bit crazy under Blair, Iraq all that, then we had the financial crisis, austerity, we had a coalition government which was unusual, between the lib dems and Conservatives then David Cameron, although he gets much stick, as far as I can tell did actually try pretty hard to negotiate with Europe. He did give us a referendum so you know, credit for that. Boris hadn’t been in that long before we were hit with covid and then ukraine, so it’s not like it was a great time for him to get done what he wanted, he couldn’t have had more stuff against him. I suppose it’s easy to pick the bad stuff, everyone covers what the politicians have wrong, everyone likes to vent about the state of the world, but I think the British people by and large know politics is a slow game, change isn’t fast or easy, I think most sensible British people would cut boris and truss some slack considering the headwinds they were facing. I know lots of business owners are not happy about corporation tax etc. Uneasy how boris and truss were got rid of, like you say, I am really not an advocate for pitchforks either, global situation is not great there are bigger wars going on, but also head in the sand is no good. I will see how Mr Sunak does, I suppose faced with truss gone they had to tow the line anyway, it’s very difficult to make out what’s going on with all that. Lizz truss arguably was trying to change the status quo I think might be fair to say?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Sunak deserves a chance and think that while Truss seems to have badly miscalculated, at least in a political sense, her removal was insanely abrupt.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Sunak deserves a chance and think that while Truss seems to have badly miscalculated, at least in a political sense, her removal was insanely abrupt.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I understand what you are saying about boris and Conservatives etc. You will have to bear in mind my memory/ knowledge of politics is no where near as good as some here. British politics I think got a bit crazy under Blair, Iraq all that, then we had the financial crisis, austerity, we had a coalition government which was unusual, between the lib dems and Conservatives then David Cameron, although he gets much stick, as far as I can tell did actually try pretty hard to negotiate with Europe. He did give us a referendum so you know, credit for that. Boris hadn’t been in that long before we were hit with covid and then ukraine, so it’s not like it was a great time for him to get done what he wanted, he couldn’t have had more stuff against him. I suppose it’s easy to pick the bad stuff, everyone covers what the politicians have wrong, everyone likes to vent about the state of the world, but I think the British people by and large know politics is a slow game, change isn’t fast or easy, I think most sensible British people would cut boris and truss some slack considering the headwinds they were facing. I know lots of business owners are not happy about corporation tax etc. Uneasy how boris and truss were got rid of, like you say, I am really not an advocate for pitchforks either, global situation is not great there are bigger wars going on, but also head in the sand is no good. I will see how Mr Sunak does, I suppose faced with truss gone they had to tow the line anyway, it’s very difficult to make out what’s going on with all that. Lizz truss arguably was trying to change the status quo I think might be fair to say?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I agree that Boris is, in an IQ sense, intelligent–despite his buffoonery. Not dissimilar to Trump in that way. Both men seem pretty much all about themselves to me too, even by politician “standards”.
What did Johnson’s accomplish? How many consecutive years of Conservative rule will be needed for anything of substance to get done in the UK, or will those failures be blamed on a left-leaning elite no matter what?
Don’t mistake me for a left-wing partisan though: It’s not like I think Biden is wonderful, or thought (as an transatlantic observer) that Tony Blair was a great statesman either.
That’s part of the trouble for those of us who care, but land inside the fringes: Which establishment party or electable politicians are likely to do much good, or even oppose an entrenched status quo?
While I’m dispositionally opposed to bloody revolutions and violent ideological uprisings, I’m not a milquetoast all-is-well head-in-the-sand-man either. We need more non-idiotic voices and cooperative participation. Conscientious, concerted citizenship now (please)!

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, I think Boris appealed to brexit voters for a few reasons I think, he was in the leave campaign, he was part of an existing party that had a better chance of majority than ukip, he is intelligent, silver spoon yes, but that wasn’t the point, it’s the policies etc. If we start saying everyone born with a silver spoon doesn’t have the countries interests at heart well that’s getting a bit toward the lot that want to ‘remove the elite’. I like truss, she seems genuine, by holding the corporation tax rate etc. she wasn’t hurting small business she was helping them, which was/is in the interest of certain sections of the working class. Trump and that whole thing are a different kettle of fish I feel, your issues there are different to ours in many aspects I feel. Our government has really fluffed it now, there’s no denying it, lots of mistakes made but that doesn’t mean truss was wrong.
The corptocracy thing is making it as mainstream issue I think, and it’s not an easy one to tackle, corporations are now globalised, that whole business is also to an extent a different kettle of fish. Not really perhaps the fault of one government, just everything got really big, really fast, we seem to have got carried away with massive globalised business and institutions which add another layer of issues and sometimes corruption on top.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I come from a large extended family of mostly small-business owners and salespeople on one side and farmers and small-time, small town business folk on the other. My dad, from the Canadian farmer side, became a carpenter and then a contractor after we moved to the States and I’ve done a fair amount of that work myself.
That’s why I’m kind of personally offended that Trump has stiffed so many contractors and by extension tradespeople, and dismayed at those who think he or Boris Johnson–sons of silver- spoon, high white privilege–are on their side in any real way.
Maybe the alternative looks worse, and many love the populist, stick-it-to-the-wokesters talk. But there hasn’t been much delivery–from either the left, right or center–on reducing corporatocracy or socioeconomic inequality has there?
I don’t want to mock and vilify those I disagree with anymore–I’ve done my share of that, and sometimes I still do it, regretably.
I see my real opponents as those on the far-far left and far-far right ends of the ideological spectrum–the ones typically most willing to kill or tyrannize for a creed. I’ve aged or perhaps matured into a place where I can see that most people have a combination of valid and understandable motives for their beliefs. No Single True Path can, or should prevail.
I don’t know if you can be made to stand in for all millennials, but I find your presence here welcome, and far from annoying.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

OK, just making sure, there’s so much crazy related to Alex jones David ike type media now, its a minefield.
On you earlier point about the economy, yes I am ‘working class’, but my dad ran a limited company for years, my partner and I with him later on. So I understand the difference corporation tax makes to small business. There seems to be a perception that all working class people work for others, in the construction industry (our area) this is very much not the case. We have to do books, tax, regulations too. So I can see how lowering taxes on business, cutting regulations etc leaves more for them to invest in innovation and hiring more people. Which improves the economy as a whole, bottom up. Really we need to be looking to encourage this reshoring business, putting high tax on business etc is not going to attract investment. I can understand her arguments, she does lay it out well in her essay. I can see why in America you cant understand why the working class would like boris, it seems you have a slightly different approach to class maybe, but most in our sort of tier value intelligence and education, we don’t hold it against the likes of boris and truss however they got it, all that matters is what they are saying and doing I suppose. I imagine it took some b*lls to try and change the status quo, so I admire truss for that too.
Hopefully my millennial presence isn’t too annoying 🙂

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Got it. That was meant mainly as a joke since your said you “were an Alex Jones kid” and you and your generation aren’t kids anymore. But I appreciate the re-assurance anyway.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Lol, mention Alex jones and people run a mile, I love it. I do not rely on him to say how the world works, like I say, he’s discredited, reputation shredded, I suppose I’m trying to say when we were teenagers there was a lot of that stuff flying around the Internet, wiki leaks and all that, very little was censored, it was fun to read crazy theories, and that’s kind of what got me interested I suppose. He picked up on stuff like the un, trilateral commission etc etc that others never really discussed. That and arguing over radio four at work with my dad, who absolutely hates Alex jones – he happily told us not to be so bloody stupid and watch some proper news. Hence the shift to business type news now I’m a grown up 🙂

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Liz Truss was defeated by the capital markets who saw plans to increase spending combined with plans to cut revenues. Not at all a left-leaning Establishment – the City of London and Wall Street?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

The reasons for the market reaction were more complex than you make out, I would direct you to her essay in the telegraph where she explains it all very clearly. It was also related to the change in interest rates and lpis etc.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

The reasons for the market reaction were more complex than you make out, I would direct you to her essay in the telegraph where she explains it all very clearly. It was also related to the change in interest rates and lpis etc.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m glad there’s a Millennial Presence (sounds like a New Age cult from the late 90s) here, especially with at least one person who’s not in lockstep with some reductive idea of what millennials are assumed to think.
I think at least a slight majority of people have some independence of mind, but they also want to belong somewhere, so they cluster in the tribes they were born into (ethnic, religious) or find camps of the seemingly like-minded (political, ideological) on their own, and surrender some of their own cognitive processes to the “hive mind”.
That’s actually not so bad to a degree, because a single person’s intellect and experience has limits, and because there’s too much information to process as a whole, and because information doesn’t lead straight to knowledge or understanding (“and because…”). But too many of us end up choosing our sides because of who we hate, crouching or lounging in warring camps that squawk at one another yet barely listen. It has always been this way to an extent, but we’re in a pretty divisive cultural moment. (Pretty sure that mid-16th Century Europe with its Christian-on-Christian sectarian violence had us beat for internal cultural division though).
Is the right-leaning establishment on the side of The People? Boris and Liz and Rishi? I’m still a bit amazed at working class people or even down-and-outers who who love Trump as if he is firmly one their side–the tax cheat who stiffs tradespeople on their pay whenever he can!–or anyone’s side but himself and his inner circle.
I do think even a good ideology (say altruism or humanism) that is rigidly fixed becomes an obstacle or a trap.
Though I’m not sad to see someone like Alex Jones lose prominence or a specific platform to shout from, I don’t believe in suppressing speech either, unless, for example, it is a clear incitement to specific violence or jeopardizes people by revealing certain personal or military details.
Most Americans don’t believe in prior censorship either. There is indeed a hyper-progressive or woke elite here that has departed from common sense and jumped way ahead of popular opinion, many among whom seem convinced they have a perfect new path that at this stage involves racializing everything and turning language into an easily triggered minefield of trauma and offense. But American is a big place, far more varied and a bit less crazy than it may appear from the outside–most places are. (In the case of Canada, where I like to remind people I was born, I think it’s quite a bit more crazy and less nice than people tend to assume–though still pretty nice eh).
Please don’t trust Alex Jones to tell you how the world really works ever again! That’s enough from me in what I intended as a brief reply. To be continued.

Walter Schwager
Walter Schwager
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Liz Truss was defeated by the capital markets who saw plans to increase spending combined with plans to cut revenues. Not at all a left-leaning Establishment – the City of London and Wall Street?

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you, very fair, so l’ll do my best to sketch out how I see it. I am pro brexit. I wanted lizz truss and her free trade, low tax outward looking economy we were promised, trade with the world, take back control of our democracy, encourage tourists etc. I thought that was the vision anyway, it was bold, different, what we needed, a lot of people have forgotten that. We have now been robbed of that by a left leaning establishment (biden also stuck his oar in) and I am p*ssed off about it tbh. Good for her writing in the telegraph. We have lost two leaders trying to do what they were elected for and now have one we didn’t choose suffocating the economy. And now perhaps a breaking global order. So part of our brexit vision is in tatters, before we were allowed to even try it. The American stuff is the exported politics which are often aggressively funded, the US has become pretty hypocritical on so many issues, didn’t support brexit, lied to us over Iraq and Afghanistan, interfered in truss budget, not very democratic, major censorship issues, very poor management of the dollar and economy which is/has hurt everyone, 2008 wasn’t exactly because Americans has been responsible. I think they could tone down the free world nonsense a bit, they are hardly much better than anyone else.
I can see why I’m hard to pin down, they don’t make them like me very often, probably wise. I actually started posting because there didn’t seem to be any millennials on here, got spare time as my little one is on and off school. Ive read here for a long time, but in the comments a lot of people making assumptions about my generation. I’ve been challenging their perceptions and testing myself I suppose, bothering people that probably wish I would go away 🙂
I follow the fringe sites that do just business/ energy type news and have for years, so I’ve been joining in on all that. It’s quite funny some people think this is one of the only alternatives to msm. My parents live on a boat, it has its own little alternative type news community, I know a guy that runs a little news site from his boat and my partner knows another that hands out his own paper. I was a bit of an Alex jones kid, I know he is discredited but he certainly raised some questions about certain organisations, so how the world really works etc has always been an interest on and off. Its very much back on at the moment 🙂
I know there’s a million things I don’t know or understand so from my perspective I don’t think it’s always good to be too fixed in beliefs and idealogy, try and keep learning, be open to changing your mind all that. I do believe in free speech and not cancelling people left right and centre though. I think we are living in times when it feels like the world is getting smaller perhaps and people are not always free to speak, covid was very restrictive, and in times where how we act now, will have some serious consequences for years to come. Its all going at the moment 🙂
My main worry is the escalation, I feel awful for ukraine, I think the whole thing is just a mess.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

well put thanks !

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

I’m actually pretty sympathetic to most of these points, although I don’t share all your demographics as a 50-ish male American born in Canada.
I’d like Europe to help lead the way to a less contentious world order, if possible. But most of the outspoken commenters here are, if not straight up rah rah pro-Brexit, suspicious of anything Continental or multi-lateral that seems to threaten local pubs and restaurants, familiar population makeup, etc. I’m not saying there aren’t complex and valid reasons to reject membership in the EU. But it’s a bit much to be a roaring Little England Brexiteer and then talk about the critical imperative of taming the American Beast (whenever such commenters are the same people-I admit I sometimes lose track).
The above is not meant to refer to your own views, and I’m not sure where you stand on all the recurring, ongoing world and UK-specific issues that come up here. I have noticed that you’re not easy to pin at one place on the political-cultural-philosophical spectrum, which I respect. I often disagree with you but can only conclude that your a thoughtful and worthy participant in the UnHerd.
“wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict”. Amen to that!
As much as I’m in sympathy with Ukraine’s cause, I am troubled by this escalation on both sides. (Let’s be honest, whatever the scales used, it isn’t unidirectional in either direction).
And while I remain very opinionated in my middle years, I try not to treat my opinions like religious beliefs, nor to believe everything I think, as if every passing thought were a gem.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

well put thanks !

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898”
That covers a period during which Americans
– overthrew democratically elected governments in Chile, Congo, Iran amongst others, replacing them with murderous dictators or authoritarian leaders
– Attacked Vietnam, Libya, Iraq without provocation, resulting in utter destruction of those countries
– Supported terrorist or radical religious organisations in Nicaragua, Afghanistan
– Provided arms and other support to countries like Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, Saudi – while they used those arms for genocide or attacks on civilians.

You aren’t making the case you think you are.

And incidentally, the reason they haven’t annexed anything since 1898?
Because they ran out of places to annexe
Have you seen the American map of 1776 and how it compares to the current, post 1898 borders?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’m not an US Exceptionalist nor a believer in the phony justifications that were made for so-called Manifest Destiny.
You’re right that US involvement overseas has been disastrous on the whole since WWII.
But I really think it easy to make the case that the Soviet Union was more violent, expansionist and tyrannical, with many more documented deaths and swallowed countries in its wake than even the most inflated US tally. And I believe Putin comes from and wants to return to this sort of Russia: a de facto tyrannical oligarchy and expansionist empire that pretends to a benevolent altruism, socialist or not.
So I am not making the case that America is squeaky clean or perfect, nor a case that could ever persuade a Putin fan like you, but I’m quite sure I know the kind of case I am making, in what context and with what stakes.
If you are, for example, an anti-American, Hungarian ultra-authoritarian who’d love to see an even stronger Orbán-Putin alliance, or a re-absorption of Hungary into a Russianist mega-state, you have your own point-of-view and internal logic.
But we’re not gonna persuade each other.

OrthoChristos
OrthoChristos
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I am bewildered when Americans believe the USSR is the exact same thing as post-1991 Russia to win an argument – the US did that, but Russia did that also. It honestly reminds me of a recent re-tweet by NATO on its official page of an article portraying Putin as Thanos. When are people going to stop believing geopolitics is a DC or Marvel fantasy movie…

OrthoChristos
OrthoChristos
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I am bewildered when Americans believe the USSR is the exact same thing as post-1991 Russia to win an argument – the US did that, but Russia did that also. It honestly reminds me of a recent re-tweet by NATO on its official page of an article portraying Putin as Thanos. When are people going to stop believing geopolitics is a DC or Marvel fantasy movie…

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’m not an US Exceptionalist nor a believer in the phony justifications that were made for so-called Manifest Destiny.
You’re right that US involvement overseas has been disastrous on the whole since WWII.
But I really think it easy to make the case that the Soviet Union was more violent, expansionist and tyrannical, with many more documented deaths and swallowed countries in its wake than even the most inflated US tally. And I believe Putin comes from and wants to return to this sort of Russia: a de facto tyrannical oligarchy and expansionist empire that pretends to a benevolent altruism, socialist or not.
So I am not making the case that America is squeaky clean or perfect, nor a case that could ever persuade a Putin fan like you, but I’m quite sure I know the kind of case I am making, in what context and with what stakes.
If you are, for example, an anti-American, Hungarian ultra-authoritarian who’d love to see an even stronger Orbán-Putin alliance, or a re-absorption of Hungary into a Russianist mega-state, you have your own point-of-view and internal logic.
But we’re not gonna persuade each other.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

ha ha what a load of tosh! ye ha. Bet you don’t have any native American mates do you……

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

A few with much higher percentages than Elizabeth Warren. Do you have any?
I suppose we could nearly all do a lot better as nations and individual people.
[I altered this reply because while I probably shouldn’t have responded to this sort of mockery at all, since I’m doing so I’d rather to not pile on negativity the way I did in the first version]

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

A few with much higher percentages than Elizabeth Warren. Do you have any?
I suppose we could nearly all do a lot better as nations and individual people.
[I altered this reply because while I probably shouldn’t have responded to this sort of mockery at all, since I’m doing so I’d rather to not pile on negativity the way I did in the first version]

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Geez.. you guys are suckers for the MSM.. the US has effectively annexed almost every nation on Earth (except the BRICS) via neo liberalism.. much easier than neocolonialism in turn much easier than colonialism..
Don’t you find it odd that while you are happy to stay with American hegemony the BRICS nations, most of Africa, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and now much of Latin America have had enough!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I have a very conflicted view to all this. Let me try and lay it out. Because I have been pretty anti us. But I have also been anti russia and China. So.
I’m pissed at the us for its lies over Iraq, im slightly aggravated by the fact its multinationals have made a lot of money in China, we have off shored everything there and now all of a sudden its no good, we must stop dealing with them. A bit like the Russian energy. Same idea. Let’s do it, actually no. That’s going to cause carnage. All you old people have bought Chinese goods then turn round to young people and say actually no, we’ve given the crazy communists too much money and we must fight them. OK. Great, thanks guys.
I don’t like how your fbi etc censor twitter etc etc I don’t like the way you just constantly use qe as an answer.
Next. The ccp could well be responsible for covid, are probably as dodgy as every b*gger else just like the Russians. I am also very sceptical of their intentions.
If your a millennial all this is very confusing. Lies everywhere on all sides. Collapsing the current global order is f*cking worrying. Some people, like my good self just are wondering if actually we could all calm down, try and find some understanding on all sides and deal with the power balance change without escalation towards nuclear conflict. You know. That’s all really. There is a few points to say the us hasn’t helped the situation. That’s not to say that the ccp and Russia aren’t also merrily causing carnage. Tbh they’re all at it and Europe is stuck in the middle, wondering how long until they all kick off properly and how bad it’s likely to be. In my humble opinion.

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898”
That covers a period during which Americans
– overthrew democratically elected governments in Chile, Congo, Iran amongst others, replacing them with murderous dictators or authoritarian leaders
– Attacked Vietnam, Libya, Iraq without provocation, resulting in utter destruction of those countries
– Supported terrorist or radical religious organisations in Nicaragua, Afghanistan
– Provided arms and other support to countries like Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, Saudi – while they used those arms for genocide or attacks on civilians.

You aren’t making the case you think you are.

And incidentally, the reason they haven’t annexed anything since 1898?
Because they ran out of places to annexe
Have you seen the American map of 1776 and how it compares to the current, post 1898 borders?

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

ha ha what a load of tosh! ye ha. Bet you don’t have any native American mates do you……

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Give over.
The EU was making the running on accession to the EU, before ever any thought of Ukraine joining Nato.
Russia, because of it’s nukes still thinks it’s a great power…but it isn’t, not really. It has destroyed it’s main source of revenue for maybe 10 years.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

The criteria for joining the EU are such that Ukraine will qualify in maybe a 100 years or so thanks to its monumental corruption, state run judiciary, imprisoned opposition etc! Get real..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If that is the case how on earth did corrupt little Ireland get in? Or for that matter irredeemably corrupt little Greece?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Ireland isn’t a real country. It’s just part of Britain.
They are all one people of the British Isles.
Can’t see all the fuss.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Ireland isn’t a real country. It’s just part of Britain.
They are all one people of the British Isles.
Can’t see all the fuss.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If that is the case how on earth did corrupt little Ireland get in? Or for that matter irredeemably corrupt little Greece?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

The criteria for joining the EU are such that Ukraine will qualify in maybe a 100 years or so thanks to its monumental corruption, state run judiciary, imprisoned opposition etc! Get real..

Last edited 1 year ago by Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Spot on!

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Well said Bruce! So many down votes – really? What a bunch of red necks on here!

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Some of what he said was spot on, other things were a very mixed bag. That’s probably why.

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Carl Valentine

Some of what he said was spot on, other things were a very mixed bag. That’s probably why.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

oh – I finally get it !! Nato really just wanted to invade russia all along !!

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

I think it’s the Ukranians who decide whether they are a country or not…and who they can play with.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

No. Ending it on the Ukraine-Western side means the end of Ukraine in any meaningful sense. Ending it from the Russian side means the non-increase (or in their view, non-recovery) of Russian soil, stopping the bloodbath and helping to curtail Putin’s imperial ambitions. It is Putin who has brushed aside warnings and miscalculated. Let him have this one you seem to say, in the interest of a tense a servile peace. How about the next one?
Yes, the US has an imperial past and present but it hasn’t annexed territory since 1898. And when we go into places around the globe and try to control or “Americanize” them more recently that doesn’t really work out well in the long run does it? This intervention is a far more legitimate defense of Western interests or Ukrainian national sovereignty than the weak pretense of Kuwaiti sovereignty made for Desert Storm in 1990. Or of mostly-futile nation-building efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.
I’d like to know from some/any among the multitude of anti-Ukraine-intervention voices here: Are you just against intervention, or actively rooting for a decrease in US world power and consequent increase in the power of Russia and China?
Because I’m not an unqualified supporter of American power and influence, but I’ll take it over the plausible alternatives.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Give over.
The EU was making the running on accession to the EU, before ever any thought of Ukraine joining Nato.
Russia, because of it’s nukes still thinks it’s a great power…but it isn’t, not really. It has destroyed it’s main source of revenue for maybe 10 years.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Spot on!

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Well said Bruce! So many down votes – really? What a bunch of red necks on here!

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

oh – I finally get it !! Nato really just wanted to invade russia all along !!

Mr Bellisarius
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

I think it’s the Ukranians who decide whether they are a country or not…and who they can play with.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I’d say the support for Putin could be explained by the enemy of my enemy is my friend if you consider Ukraine to basically be fighting on behalf of the US empire.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Ok, I can see that justification. But in this situation don’t you have to make the entire West your enemy for that to even to make sense to the degree that slogan even makes sense? (Of course your enemy’s enemy can be another enemy, or certainly an adversary). In other words, what part of the globe do these commenters and their families reside in? The non-West?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

If you mean the people of the west than no of course you don’t consider them all enemies but the people in charge yes and I was clear to call it the American empire. I would consider it a bit like certain Irish nationalists supporting Germany in the first world war. They did not want to be part of a German empire though in that war they had a common enemy.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

That may work as an explanation but not a reason, when the actual result of that support, if successful, is German empire or Russo-Chinese world hegemony. Or would NATO and the EU– with Britain now desperately back on board–fill that void after big bad Uncle Sam is booted from the leadership seat?

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

There are those who believe that a multi-polar world reins everyone in, and raises more boats than does a unipolar hegemony. A reduction of American ability to tyrranize and threaten innocent others will be welcomed by many.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Ah, the glory days of the Cold War.
Truthfully, I can see some merit in this belief, and plenty of reasons not to trust unipolar American sway.
But how many sovereign nations have to be conceded, how many CCP spy games and and betrayals like Hong Kong are needed to achieve this bellicose balance?
It’s possible you may get your wish, yet become nostalgic for the days of American domination when you see what China and Russia provide to replace it.
Why not build up NATO the EU, the UK and other pockets of the world (Australia, Mexico, Brazil) that are not hostile to so-called Western values, which in many cases correspond to Universal Human Rights, at least aspirationally, and with some real-world success?
Easily said I know, but a better, if steeper and slower, path in my view than moving the pieces to the other side of the global board as if it were a game of Risk, so we can fiddle while Rome burns, or succumb to a naive belief that what comes next can’t be any worse.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

They believe that right up until Russia or China starts to invade them, then they cry for US help.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

Ah, the glory days of the Cold War.
Truthfully, I can see some merit in this belief, and plenty of reasons not to trust unipolar American sway.
But how many sovereign nations have to be conceded, how many CCP spy games and and betrayals like Hong Kong are needed to achieve this bellicose balance?
It’s possible you may get your wish, yet become nostalgic for the days of American domination when you see what China and Russia provide to replace it.
Why not build up NATO the EU, the UK and other pockets of the world (Australia, Mexico, Brazil) that are not hostile to so-called Western values, which in many cases correspond to Universal Human Rights, at least aspirationally, and with some real-world success?
Easily said I know, but a better, if steeper and slower, path in my view than moving the pieces to the other side of the global board as if it were a game of Risk, so we can fiddle while Rome burns, or succumb to a naive belief that what comes next can’t be any worse.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruce Edgar

They believe that right up until Russia or China starts to invade them, then they cry for US help.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

People seem to be confusing my explanation for my opinion but I’ll continue to play along as it’s an interesting discussion.
I don’t think anyone sees Russia as a serious threat to the USA to be honest and NATO is a pretty strong blockade on them progressing any further than Ukraine. So it seems fine for Russia to control Ukraine which is vital for their national security while for the US empire it isn’t particularly vital at all. There seems like a lot more steps before we get to the defeat of the US empire and Russia, China hegemony.
On the topic of China I think you would likely find a lot of those nationalists we started this discussion about would see them as far more of a serious threat. They would prefer to be aligned with Russia against China than face them both at the same time.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I see. I was trying to coax out your own views while attempting to play along with your non-committal or third-person language. I agree that the prospect of a Russia-China mega-bloc is not around the corner, but disagree that there are many steps still needed.
Thought experiment. Let Russia have Ukraine, let China fully re-absorb Hong Kong and Taiwan. Then they both stop there?
So you–or the hypothetical people whose views you’re defending–would be in favor of opposing Russia and Putin the Terrible if he tries to push on into Lithuania, Belarus, Finland…eastern Poland?
If what’s left of the pretense of civil relations and mutual standoffishness between China and the US collapses, a Russia-Chinese hegemony could be about one-full step and a few years away from reality. That’s my non-expert opinion, one which I didn’t, of course, form all on my own.
I agree that Russia by itself presents only a minor political, economic, and existential threat to the West unless they literally go nuclear. But that is something that seems less farfetched than it did just a full year ago.
I don’t see how you think you can be aligned with Russia under its present leadership without a huge risk of becoming part of Russia or the Soviet Union 2.0, or of finding your nation facing a bigger war, closer to your own front step, to resist that.
Who do you think Putin is? Can Poles, Hungarians, or Germans be expected to share your comfort with the notion of a strategic alliance with Russia?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sorry I have been offline for a few days and understand this thread has gone cold but just to honor your comment with a response. I would say that the difference between Ukraine and Poland for example is Nato and nuclear war. So I don’t see some sort of domino effect happening and I also think its a long shot they take the whole of Ukraine. I don’ think the West should concede anything to China either. Anyway, I answered your question in my first comment. Bye!

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Sorry I have been offline for a few days and understand this thread has gone cold but just to honor your comment with a response. I would say that the difference between Ukraine and Poland for example is Nato and nuclear war. So I don’t see some sort of domino effect happening and I also think its a long shot they take the whole of Ukraine. I don’ think the West should concede anything to China either. Anyway, I answered your question in my first comment. Bye!

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I thank you not to treat Ukraine, a country of nearly 50 million prior to 2014, with an emigre community of an additional 5-6 million, as though the desire of Ukrainians to keep their own country and not a colony of russia’s was irrelevant. You’ve clearly never visited either place so you have no idea just how far apart they are in just about every way.
PS NATO wasn’t doing so well until this war became a wake-up call and suddenly everybody’s thinking defense and two neutral countries rushed to join it.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Rascal Dear

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Rascal Dear

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I see. I was trying to coax out your own views while attempting to play along with your non-committal or third-person language. I agree that the prospect of a Russia-China mega-bloc is not around the corner, but disagree that there are many steps still needed.
Thought experiment. Let Russia have Ukraine, let China fully re-absorb Hong Kong and Taiwan. Then they both stop there?
So you–or the hypothetical people whose views you’re defending–would be in favor of opposing Russia and Putin the Terrible if he tries to push on into Lithuania, Belarus, Finland…eastern Poland?
If what’s left of the pretense of civil relations and mutual standoffishness between China and the US collapses, a Russia-Chinese hegemony could be about one-full step and a few years away from reality. That’s my non-expert opinion, one which I didn’t, of course, form all on my own.
I agree that Russia by itself presents only a minor political, economic, and existential threat to the West unless they literally go nuclear. But that is something that seems less farfetched than it did just a full year ago.
I don’t see how you think you can be aligned with Russia under its present leadership without a huge risk of becoming part of Russia or the Soviet Union 2.0, or of finding your nation facing a bigger war, closer to your own front step, to resist that.
Who do you think Putin is? Can Poles, Hungarians, or Germans be expected to share your comfort with the notion of a strategic alliance with Russia?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I thank you not to treat Ukraine, a country of nearly 50 million prior to 2014, with an emigre community of an additional 5-6 million, as though the desire of Ukrainians to keep their own country and not a colony of russia’s was irrelevant. You’ve clearly never visited either place so you have no idea just how far apart they are in just about every way.
PS NATO wasn’t doing so well until this war became a wake-up call and suddenly everybody’s thinking defense and two neutral countries rushed to join it.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

There are those who believe that a multi-polar world reins everyone in, and raises more boats than does a unipolar hegemony. A reduction of American ability to tyrranize and threaten innocent others will be welcomed by many.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

People seem to be confusing my explanation for my opinion but I’ll continue to play along as it’s an interesting discussion.
I don’t think anyone sees Russia as a serious threat to the USA to be honest and NATO is a pretty strong blockade on them progressing any further than Ukraine. So it seems fine for Russia to control Ukraine which is vital for their national security while for the US empire it isn’t particularly vital at all. There seems like a lot more steps before we get to the defeat of the US empire and Russia, China hegemony.
On the topic of China I think you would likely find a lot of those nationalists we started this discussion about would see them as far more of a serious threat. They would prefer to be aligned with Russia against China than face them both at the same time.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Correct..

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

That may work as an explanation but not a reason, when the actual result of that support, if successful, is German empire or Russo-Chinese world hegemony. Or would NATO and the EU– with Britain now desperately back on board–fill that void after big bad Uncle Sam is booted from the leadership seat?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Correct..

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

If you mean the people of the west than no of course you don’t consider them all enemies but the people in charge yes and I was clear to call it the American empire. I would consider it a bit like certain Irish nationalists supporting Germany in the first world war. They did not want to be part of a German empire though in that war they had a common enemy.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

Ok, I can see that justification. But in this situation don’t you have to make the entire West your enemy for that to even to make sense to the degree that slogan even makes sense? (Of course your enemy’s enemy can be another enemy, or certainly an adversary). In other words, what part of the globe do these commenters and their families reside in? The non-West?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You’ve got a few things very wrong (in you last paragraph):
1. “War… not good for anyone”? Are you joking? NATO (ie US, others are just lackeys) ie the American Military Complex is doing great!
2. The US has smashed EU-Russian relations so US foreign policy wins a great victory.
3. European economy is screwed making Europe heavily dependent on (non-existent) US largesse.. they have us by the balls! A great economic hit by the US on Europe!
4. Russia being weakened and its new monetary regime (via BRICS) is seriously curtailed – the whole motive for the CIA coup in the first place – thereby safeguarding the otherwise bankrupted dollar.
…and you say no one wins! Ha ha.. lol..

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If anyone could actually plan out an outcome so unlikely 10 years ago, they would be beyond genius.
I don’t think the people who made the disastrous war in Iraq, and lost Afghanistan are exactly geniuses.
But maybe Joe Biden is the exception?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Ok certain war profiteers win. Lunatic online trolls win. Thanks for pointing out these important exceptions.
Europeans don’t need American military support and the U.S. govt. caused Putin’s invasion into Ukraine, wrecking an otherwise robust EU-Russia partnership (Haha, LAWL!).
The U.S. is a country of simpleminded yokels run by an elite of greed-blinded, ingenious masterminds who are for some reason also willing to have the world explode in their supposed self-interest. (LOL!)
Joe Biden, Boris Johnson, and even Trump aren’t just people you dislike but lizard people devoid of all humanity, goodwill, and sensible self-interest (willing to burn and destroy it all for money and self-promotion amid the rubble that’s left of the world…LOL).
You’ve made America into your literal Satan, though in competition with England, able to embody all–or most of–your hatred and prejudice. Is it accurate to say that you’d like to see America and most of its people obliterated? And that you consider yourself a Christian?
There’s not much point in us exchanging views on most topics, is there? Best to just let one another be, letting the up and downvotes fall as they may. Incidentally, I know there is more to you than you ranting denunciations, but you don’t show much of it here, and I can agree with some of your points, but you almost always wrap them in insults and ridicule. I don’t pretend to know it all, do you? No need to answer right away.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Lunatic online trolls win.” As sure as death and taxes.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Lunatic online trolls win.” As sure as death and taxes.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

If anyone could actually plan out an outcome so unlikely 10 years ago, they would be beyond genius.
I don’t think the people who made the disastrous war in Iraq, and lost Afghanistan are exactly geniuses.
But maybe Joe Biden is the exception?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Ok certain war profiteers win. Lunatic online trolls win. Thanks for pointing out these important exceptions.
Europeans don’t need American military support and the U.S. govt. caused Putin’s invasion into Ukraine, wrecking an otherwise robust EU-Russia partnership (Haha, LAWL!).
The U.S. is a country of simpleminded yokels run by an elite of greed-blinded, ingenious masterminds who are for some reason also willing to have the world explode in their supposed self-interest. (LOL!)
Joe Biden, Boris Johnson, and even Trump aren’t just people you dislike but lizard people devoid of all humanity, goodwill, and sensible self-interest (willing to burn and destroy it all for money and self-promotion amid the rubble that’s left of the world…LOL).
You’ve made America into your literal Satan, though in competition with England, able to embody all–or most of–your hatred and prejudice. Is it accurate to say that you’d like to see America and most of its people obliterated? And that you consider yourself a Christian?
There’s not much point in us exchanging views on most topics, is there? Best to just let one another be, letting the up and downvotes fall as they may. Incidentally, I know there is more to you than you ranting denunciations, but you don’t show much of it here, and I can agree with some of your points, but you almost always wrap them in insults and ridicule. I don’t pretend to know it all, do you? No need to answer right away.

Bruce Edgar
Bruce Edgar
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

“Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status…”
The same could be said about NATO and America as well. Thirty years of warnings that Ukraine was the red line have been brushed aside by the West, and this is the provocation that has produced Putin’s response. To see this, one would have to understand that the Imperial West cannot be trusted. Our own history of multiple invasions and regime change efforts–let alone the colonialist history of key EU states–confirms this. There is no innocent intent when it comes to the deceptions and bad behavior on the part of this western Offensive (not defensive) alliance.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

I’d say the support for Putin could be explained by the enemy of my enemy is my friend if you consider Ukraine to basically be fighting on behalf of the US empire.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

You’ve got a few things very wrong (in you last paragraph):
1. “War… not good for anyone”? Are you joking? NATO (ie US, others are just lackeys) ie the American Military Complex is doing great!
2. The US has smashed EU-Russian relations so US foreign policy wins a great victory.
3. European economy is screwed making Europe heavily dependent on (non-existent) US largesse.. they have us by the balls! A great economic hit by the US on Europe!
4. Russia being weakened and its new monetary regime (via BRICS) is seriously curtailed – the whole motive for the CIA coup in the first place – thereby safeguarding the otherwise bankrupted dollar.
…and you say no one wins! Ha ha.. lol..

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

To me, this was a worthwhile peek inside the eye of the storm. The article is quite openly biased, as a piece of embedded journalism, or any non-fringe Western view of this conflict is likely to be. I’m fine with that. I could access ultra-right-wing media or even Russian propaganda for “balance” if I were so inclined and had better firewalls on my pc.
Or I can be exposed to some offshoot of Russian State TV by certain prominent commenters here. Why is it that those of a nationalistic or even Western Chauvinist bent are often such easy fans of this Soviet-revivalist Russian regime? (I think I’m correct to find significant overlap there). Is it part of a reflexive opposition to any stance that is seen as mainstream or liberal/progressive?
Certainly this war is hellish and not really good for anyone, and this article doesn’t run from that, sympathetic bias notwithstanding. But this fight is undoubtedly, understandably–and by demonstrated sacrifice and valor (on the whole)–preferable to non-existence from a Ukrainian perspective. And Russia could end this tomorrow without any threat to its military, legitimate sovereignty, or status as the geographically largest nation on the globe. The only increased threat would be, perhaps, to Putin himself, who would have been better off even from a calculating, self-interested point-of-view if he’d let this one go to begin with.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Russia is now transitioning from the delusional to the psychotic.
Before, Putin and those who count in Russia had just totally misread Ukraine, the EU and the US.
Bakhmut signals the New Phase.
Now Putin defies reality, and keeps ordering the automaton that is the Russian Army to smash itself to pieces in places like Bakhmut and Vuhledar.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Na, the Russians are slowly winning

When they take Bakhmut. We will be told its of no real significance, but if that’s true, why did the Ukraine hold on for so long, losing so much men and equipment for nothing

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the defences are strong. it destroys so many Russians.
And if they take it, they’re creating defences just as strong behind it.
Remember how Pisky was supposed to be the “winning” battle?
Before that Sieverodonetsk?
…before that Hostomel?
…before that…

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The propaganda runs deep in this one. I suppose you’re still thankful you took the “safe and effective” “vaccines” aye Martin?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Persephone

Yep! And I feel GREAT.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Be sure to get your booster

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Don’t worry. Already have.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Don’t worry. Already have.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Be sure to get your booster

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Persephone

Yep! And I feel GREAT.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I can’t understand people who with little knowledge of anything much will assert Russia is winning, and it’s tactics and strategy are now great.
And how Ukraine, The West, Italy or Germany will have to break ranks and start sueing for peace, while Russia will just go on and on losing people in battle, and losing smart people to anywhere that isn’t Russia where your career as a financial analyst or tach start up entrepreneur could end with an eye blown out in a freezing ditch near some Godforsaken place you had never heard of three days ago.
The Ukrainians are fighting for home, family, culture, and so on…most of the Russians are fighting to get back home without a life changing wound, let alone in a body bag.
That’s why Ukraine will win.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

Would you say retired US generals /Colonels have “little knowledge” of the situation? (Obviously those still in service are toeing the official Military Industrial complex line).. What you assert is “nice” but sadly mere wishful thinking.. Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon.. they may appear to be beaten but don’t believe it for a minute. For starters its economy is doing well notwithstanding the war! It has many supporters notwithstanding the sanctions. The BRICS and Global South are sick to the back teeth of US hegemony and UK neo colonialism..
I’ll get back to you in a few years and say:
“Ittold ye so, didn’t I?”

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon”.

Wrong, the Mongols managed it without too much trouble.

michael harris
michael harris
1 year ago

Russia is unbeatable from the West, Charles, but not from the East.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  michael harris

Max Hoffman & Co managed it in 1918.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  michael harris

Max Hoffman & Co managed it in 1918.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Nor is their power absolute and uncheckable from the West, or Putin (or likely someone else) would be Premier of the USSR right now.
But maybe Gorbachev’s openness to reform was an unearned Cold War gift.

Neil Ross
Neil Ross
1 year ago

Mongols defeated Kievan Rus, which paved the way for the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Tsardom of Russia to dominate over the following centuries! Kievan Rus’ main city for much of its existence was modern day Kyiv!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

As did Britain France and Turkey in 1855.
Factually, Russia has lost about as many wars as it has won.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Although we shouldn’t forget that Russian Guardsman dined in Paris in 1814.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Although we shouldn’t forget that Russian Guardsman dined in Paris in 1814.

michael harris
michael harris
1 year ago

Russia is unbeatable from the West, Charles, but not from the East.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Nor is their power absolute and uncheckable from the West, or Putin (or likely someone else) would be Premier of the USSR right now.
But maybe Gorbachev’s openness to reform was an unearned Cold War gift.

Neil Ross
Neil Ross
1 year ago

Mongols defeated Kievan Rus, which paved the way for the Grand Duchy of Moscow and the Tsardom of Russia to dominate over the following centuries! Kievan Rus’ main city for much of its existence was modern day Kyiv!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

As did Britain France and Turkey in 1855.
Factually, Russia has lost about as many wars as it has won.

David Walters
David Walters
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Unbeatable except in 1856, 1905, 1917 and 1989.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Russia is very beatable, it would have lost relatively easily in the Second World War if
A. It wasn’t heavily supplied with equipment and logistics by the Allies, and
B. H1tler hadn’t stretched his forces too thinly by attacking both Britain and the Soviet Union at the same time.
The Soviets were also the defensive forces during the N@zis initial assaults which generally requires less forces, whereas this time they are attacking which is much more difficult to sustain

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

“Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon”.

Wrong, the Mongols managed it without too much trouble.

David Walters
David Walters
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Unbeatable except in 1856, 1905, 1917 and 1989.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Russia is very beatable, it would have lost relatively easily in the Second World War if
A. It wasn’t heavily supplied with equipment and logistics by the Allies, and
B. H1tler hadn’t stretched his forces too thinly by attacking both Britain and the Soviet Union at the same time.
The Soviets were also the defensive forces during the N@zis initial assaults which generally requires less forces, whereas this time they are attacking which is much more difficult to sustain

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

Would you say retired US generals /Colonels have “little knowledge” of the situation? (Obviously those still in service are toeing the official Military Industrial complex line).. What you assert is “nice” but sadly mere wishful thinking.. Russia is unbeatable I’m afraid.. ask Hitler; ask Napoleon.. they may appear to be beaten but don’t believe it for a minute. For starters its economy is doing well notwithstanding the war! It has many supporters notwithstanding the sanctions. The BRICS and Global South are sick to the back teeth of US hegemony and UK neo colonialism..
I’ll get back to you in a few years and say:
“Ittold ye so, didn’t I?”

Persephone
Persephone
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

The propaganda runs deep in this one. I suppose you’re still thankful you took the “safe and effective” “vaccines” aye Martin?

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I can’t understand people who with little knowledge of anything much will assert Russia is winning, and it’s tactics and strategy are now great.
And how Ukraine, The West, Italy or Germany will have to break ranks and start sueing for peace, while Russia will just go on and on losing people in battle, and losing smart people to anywhere that isn’t Russia where your career as a financial analyst or tach start up entrepreneur could end with an eye blown out in a freezing ditch near some Godforsaken place you had never heard of three days ago.
The Ukrainians are fighting for home, family, culture, and so on…most of the Russians are fighting to get back home without a life changing wound, let alone in a body bag.
That’s why Ukraine will win.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because they are bleeding the Russians white. Russia is wasting tens of thousands of men in frontal assaults. Why wouldn’t the Ukrainians want that to continue? The casualty ratio is probably 5:1 in their favor. Maybe more.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The Wehrmacht inflicted 7 to I and still LOST.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

With Russia’s birth rate (abortion capital of the world!) that won’t work this time.
Also, no one’s going to attack Ukraine from the West to bail the Russkies out this time. Without US and British Lend Lease aid, Russia would have lost badly. 30,000 tanks, 25,000 airplanes, almost every single truck they had after 1942, 100% of their av gas, 100% of their combat rations..

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

At least we made them pay for it in GOLD!
Do you recall H.M.S.Edinburgh?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

To say nothing of the 3000 Allied sailors who died bringing the stuff to Russia.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

At least we made them pay for it in GOLD!
Do you recall H.M.S.Edinburgh?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

To say nothing of the 3000 Allied sailors who died bringing the stuff to Russia.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

With Russia’s birth rate (abortion capital of the world!) that won’t work this time.
Also, no one’s going to attack Ukraine from the West to bail the Russkies out this time. Without US and British Lend Lease aid, Russia would have lost badly. 30,000 tanks, 25,000 airplanes, almost every single truck they had after 1942, 100% of their av gas, 100% of their combat rations..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Western MSM I’m afraid.. Ukraine is already as good as defeated.. 150,000 dead; 257,000 seriously wounded.. we’re just waiting for the fat lady to sing the dirge.. Why do you think the US, UK, Poland et al are readying their own troops to take over? Tragically, no more Ukrainian fighters left. Great business for the US military industrial complex but thats about it.. that’s the US’s last hope to save the One World Order and Dollarisation..
Personally, I think it’s screwed and may well resort to nuclear weapons soon: not Russia mind. NATO/US.. no option left (except go under).. the elite have their nuke shelters so they’ll be okay …they think!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

That’s why you can only trust the outer-fringe, anti-Western media!

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This is pure Russian propaganda. Lie after lie after lie.
If Russia has made casualties of 100% of the pre-war Ukrainian army plus 200,000, why can’t they advance?
If NATO wanted to get involved, it would destroy the entire Russian military in two weeks.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

That’s why you can only trust the outer-fringe, anti-Western media!

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

This is pure Russian propaganda. Lie after lie after lie.
If Russia has made casualties of 100% of the pre-war Ukrainian army plus 200,000, why can’t they advance?
If NATO wanted to get involved, it would destroy the entire Russian military in two weeks.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

the Russians or the Ukraine are NOT sending thousands of men in human wave attacks, if they were we would have seen videos of it by now

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

We saw plenty of videos of Russians being massacred in the fields around Bakhmut. You must have ignored them.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

We saw plenty of videos of Russians being massacred in the fields around Bakhmut. You must have ignored them.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

The Wehrmacht inflicted 7 to I and still LOST.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Western MSM I’m afraid.. Ukraine is already as good as defeated.. 150,000 dead; 257,000 seriously wounded.. we’re just waiting for the fat lady to sing the dirge.. Why do you think the US, UK, Poland et al are readying their own troops to take over? Tragically, no more Ukrainian fighters left. Great business for the US military industrial complex but thats about it.. that’s the US’s last hope to save the One World Order and Dollarisation..
Personally, I think it’s screwed and may well resort to nuclear weapons soon: not Russia mind. NATO/US.. no option left (except go under).. the elite have their nuke shelters so they’ll be okay …they think!

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

the Russians or the Ukraine are NOT sending thousands of men in human wave attacks, if they were we would have seen videos of it by now

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Correct.. whatever Western MSM tells you it’s likely the opposite is true, eg Ukraine is winning, Russia is losing.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Right. “Democracy is preferable to the alternatives”. “Don’t drink gasoline”.
It’s a good thing the mainstream media is an easily detected veil that simply needs to be flipped inside out for a clear and correct view. Whereas everything that paranoid, angry cranks or cynical self-promoters like like Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson say is quite reliable–wait, are those two guys too mainstream to trust also?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Right. “Democracy is preferable to the alternatives”. “Don’t drink gasoline”.
It’s a good thing the mainstream media is an easily detected veil that simply needs to be flipped inside out for a clear and correct view. Whereas everything that paranoid, angry cranks or cynical self-promoters like like Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson say is quite reliable–wait, are those two guys too mainstream to trust also?

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the russians are losing 10-20 times more? It has kept them focused on one area of the vast front for a very long time, too.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the defences are strong. it destroys so many Russians.
And if they take it, they’re creating defences just as strong behind it.
Remember how Pisky was supposed to be the “winning” battle?
Before that Sieverodonetsk?
…before that Hostomel?
…before that…

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because they are bleeding the Russians white. Russia is wasting tens of thousands of men in frontal assaults. Why wouldn’t the Ukrainians want that to continue? The casualty ratio is probably 5:1 in their favor. Maybe more.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Correct.. whatever Western MSM tells you it’s likely the opposite is true, eg Ukraine is winning, Russia is losing.

Rascal Dear
Rascal Dear
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Because the russians are losing 10-20 times more? It has kept them focused on one area of the vast front for a very long time, too.

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Mariupol. Severdonesk. Lysichansk. The three actual battles. All won by RF. The Bahkmut-Siversk line is the last deeply fortified line. When it breaks it is on to Kramatorsk. Probably by May.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Can we get back to you on that one.
In May?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Funny how after those “victories” the Ukrainians took Kherson and Kharkiv. Far larger territories than all of those combined.
The Russian Army isn’t exactly a juggernaut, is it?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

So (or similar) said the Wermacht and Napoleon before that.. didn’t quite end up like that though did it?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Problem is, Putin doesn’t have 5 million like Stalin did.
Better not listen to Strelkov’s latest video, then, where he strongly advises Putin against an offensive, for which they are totally unprepared.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Problem is, Putin doesn’t have 5 million like Stalin did.
Better not listen to Strelkov’s latest video, then, where he strongly advises Putin against an offensive, for which they are totally unprepared.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

So (or similar) said the Wermacht and Napoleon before that.. didn’t quite end up like that though did it?

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Can we get back to you on that one.
In May?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Funny how after those “victories” the Ukrainians took Kherson and Kharkiv. Far larger territories than all of those combined.
The Russian Army isn’t exactly a juggernaut, is it?

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Na, the Russians are slowly winning

When they take Bakhmut. We will be told its of no real significance, but if that’s true, why did the Ukraine hold on for so long, losing so much men and equipment for nothing

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Mariupol. Severdonesk. Lysichansk. The three actual battles. All won by RF. The Bahkmut-Siversk line is the last deeply fortified line. When it breaks it is on to Kramatorsk. Probably by May.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Russia is now transitioning from the delusional to the psychotic.
Before, Putin and those who count in Russia had just totally misread Ukraine, the EU and the US.
Bakhmut signals the New Phase.
Now Putin defies reality, and keeps ordering the automaton that is the Russian Army to smash itself to pieces in places like Bakhmut and Vuhledar.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago

One thing that seems increasingly more clear is that this war will continue for a very long time even if this phase were to end soon.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I believe that was the NATO (ie US) plan from the beginning. Nobody gives a flying wassit for Ukraine or its people.. it’s just a proxy war to eviscerate Russia (which will never happen) and wreck Europe which is well under way! it’s all going according to plan.. no losers except Ukrainian lives and European economies.. The US loves it (thinking Russia is weakening.. wrong!) and the EU is screwed.. right. Putin is also remaking European history and his economy is thriving.. these are the winners.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Then what you are really saying is the US is run by super-humans who can predict every alternative in the world far into the future?
Again, it totally changes my view of Joe Biden.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Then what you are really saying is the US is run by super-humans who can predict every alternative in the world far into the future?
Again, it totally changes my view of Joe Biden.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Kevin Dee

I believe that was the NATO (ie US) plan from the beginning. Nobody gives a flying wassit for Ukraine or its people.. it’s just a proxy war to eviscerate Russia (which will never happen) and wreck Europe which is well under way! it’s all going according to plan.. no losers except Ukrainian lives and European economies.. The US loves it (thinking Russia is weakening.. wrong!) and the EU is screwed.. right. Putin is also remaking European history and his economy is thriving.. these are the winners.

Kevin Dee
Kevin Dee
1 year ago

One thing that seems increasingly more clear is that this war will continue for a very long time even if this phase were to end soon.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

Strategically insignificant slaughterhouses. Ypres and Verdun come to mind.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Verdun was intended as a slaughterhouse (by Falkenhayn) – that was its strategic significance.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

Then blew the strategy by getting sucked in by the early successes.

Last edited 1 year ago by Martin Bollis
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

And the German army in the West never launched another offensive–until the Eastern Army was freed by the 1917 Revolution.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

It wasn’t “freed by the Revolution” it was freed because the German Army under the direction of Max Hoffman defeated the Tsar, Karensky and the loathsome Bolsheviks in short order, and imposed a ‘Carthaginian Peace’.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

It wasn’t “freed by the Revolution” it was freed because the German Army under the direction of Max Hoffman defeated the Tsar, Karensky and the loathsome Bolsheviks in short order, and imposed a ‘Carthaginian Peace’.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

Then blew the strategy by getting sucked in by the early successes.

Last edited 1 year ago by Martin Bollis
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

And the German army in the West never launched another offensive–until the Eastern Army was freed by the 1917 Revolution.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Verdun was intended as a slaughterhouse (by Falkenhayn) – that was its strategic significance.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

Strategically insignificant slaughterhouses. Ypres and Verdun come to mind.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

Why are there so many pro-Russian stooges on UnHerd and why do they get upvotes?

0 0
0 0
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Some people have an alternative opinion, and although you may not agree with it, they are entitled to it. We do after all come to UnHerd to avoid echo chambers reinforcing our own beliefs.
If this is a issue for you, I can recommend The Guardian.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  0 0

I’m a died in the wool conservative; why would I read the Guardian?
If your opinion is that Russian is right to conquer Ukraine, and the West should stand aside and let it happen, you should be ashamed of yourself. You’re nothing but a toady for a brutal dictator.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  0 0

I’m a died in the wool conservative; why would I read the Guardian?
If your opinion is that Russian is right to conquer Ukraine, and the West should stand aside and let it happen, you should be ashamed of yourself. You’re nothing but a toady for a brutal dictator.

0 0
0 0
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Some people have an alternative opinion, and although you may not agree with it, they are entitled to it. We do after all come to UnHerd to avoid echo chambers reinforcing our own beliefs.
If this is a issue for you, I can recommend The Guardian.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago

Why are there so many pro-Russian stooges on UnHerd and why do they get upvotes?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Wow, no wonder people get their brains scrambled!
The phony tweet that thousands of NATO troops had been killed in Ukraine also claimed the info came from MOSSAD?! They make no such claim, and wouldn’t. They have a few more…pressing targets right now.
I am continually in awe of how people voluntarily dumb themselves down with garbage sites and people like LTC Scott Ritter.
I also begin to see just who’s buying into all those scams on the internet.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Wow, no wonder people get their brains scrambled!
The phony tweet that thousands of NATO troops had been killed in Ukraine also claimed the info came from MOSSAD?! They make no such claim, and wouldn’t. They have a few more…pressing targets right now.
I am continually in awe of how people voluntarily dumb themselves down with garbage sites and people like LTC Scott Ritter.
I also begin to see just who’s buying into all those scams on the internet.

David Fawcett
David Fawcett
1 year ago

My goodness, this board is infested with posts from Vlad Putin’s Troll Battalion, all with phony Irish names.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fawcett

Dia duit mo chara, conas a ta tu

Dorothy Morrissey
Dorothy Morrissey
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fawcett

my goodness, this board is infested with British sheep who sit on their sofas and swallow everything their MSM feeds them … no need for independent thinking

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fawcett

what you don’t like is Russian propaganda ..!!..the same thing you did in Vietnam ..until Yugoslavia and Iraq !!! USA :..a country with the most wars in history and with the creation of hundreds of coups all over the world!!….a country called Democracy: a political system where two same, similar parties rule here for 200 years!!! …do you have any idea what the rest of the world calls you (except England) ?????? …imperialist murderers ???….

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fawcett

Dia duit mo chara, conas a ta tu

Dorothy Morrissey
Dorothy Morrissey
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fawcett

my goodness, this board is infested with British sheep who sit on their sofas and swallow everything their MSM feeds them … no need for independent thinking

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago
Reply to  David Fawcett

what you don’t like is Russian propaganda ..!!..the same thing you did in Vietnam ..until Yugoslavia and Iraq !!! USA :..a country with the most wars in history and with the creation of hundreds of coups all over the world!!….a country called Democracy: a political system where two same, similar parties rule here for 200 years!!! …do you have any idea what the rest of the world calls you (except England) ?????? …imperialist murderers ???….

David Fawcett
David Fawcett
1 year ago

My goodness, this board is infested with posts from Vlad Putin’s Troll Battalion, all with phony Irish names.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

Sobering, sobering stuff. Thanks for this.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

Sobering, sobering stuff. Thanks for this.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Better start thinking very seriously about what happens after Putin.
He’s bet his whole regime on total conquest of Ukraine. When it either turns to a stalemate in Donbas, or he, more likely, loses Crimea, he will fall. The pro-war Russians will tear him limb from limb as a traitor.
And he has cleverly made sure no one can succeed him. So every ruthless politician in Russia will begin to fight with every other crook. It won’t be like the 90s. It will be like 1918-22.
When you put a hundred starving rats in a sealed barrel, it never winds up looking pretty.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Better start thinking very seriously about what happens after Putin.
He’s bet his whole regime on total conquest of Ukraine. When it either turns to a stalemate in Donbas, or he, more likely, loses Crimea, he will fall. The pro-war Russians will tear him limb from limb as a traitor.
And he has cleverly made sure no one can succeed him. So every ruthless politician in Russia will begin to fight with every other crook. It won’t be like the 90s. It will be like 1918-22.
When you put a hundred starving rats in a sealed barrel, it never winds up looking pretty.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago

Patrikarakos is brave to go there.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
1 year ago

Patrikarakos is brave to go there.

ROBERT GATES
ROBERT GATES
1 year ago

How is it possible for the Russians to have thousands dead yet have an overwhelming artillery advantage. Could there be any deception here. All very confusing

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  ROBERT GATES

Because they’re attacking. Ukrainians are in fortified bunkers, Russians are sending unsupported infantry to attack them. One Ukrainian shell will kill far more Russians than 10 Russian shells will kill Ukrainians in that scenario.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  ROBERT GATES

Russian artillery is much more scattershot than the NATO-produced artillery Ukraine is using. Russians bombard a position with 30 shells and even then may not hit it.

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago
Reply to  ROBERT GATES

16,000 dead missing Russians (volunteer separatists LPR and DPR, Wagner, Chechens and regular Russian army) and 160,000 dead missing Ukrainians …these are the real numbers until December 2022 ….the rest is yellow Vietnam-Yugoslavia style propaganda !!

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  ROBERT GATES

Because they’re attacking. Ukrainians are in fortified bunkers, Russians are sending unsupported infantry to attack them. One Ukrainian shell will kill far more Russians than 10 Russian shells will kill Ukrainians in that scenario.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  ROBERT GATES

Russian artillery is much more scattershot than the NATO-produced artillery Ukraine is using. Russians bombard a position with 30 shells and even then may not hit it.

George Georgiadis
George Georgiadis
1 year ago
Reply to  ROBERT GATES

16,000 dead missing Russians (volunteer separatists LPR and DPR, Wagner, Chechens and regular Russian army) and 160,000 dead missing Ukrainians …these are the real numbers until December 2022 ….the rest is yellow Vietnam-Yugoslavia style propaganda !!

ROBERT GATES
ROBERT GATES
1 year ago

How is it possible for the Russians to have thousands dead yet have an overwhelming artillery advantage. Could there be any deception here. All very confusing

Chauncey Gardiner
Chauncey Gardiner
1 year ago

A political cartoon from the late 1980’s keeps coming to mind.
One pile of skulls exclaims, “We’re winning!” An opposing pile of skulls contends, “No, we are!”
It was about the Iran-Iraq war.
It was easier to get information about the Iran-Iraq war than it is about the war in the Ukraine.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago

I think it only seemed that way because the news was so pre-curated; that’s also why it seemed more “fair.” There’s an abundance of information now if you look for it. I prefer news streams from former Warsaw Block countries.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago

I think it only seemed that way because the news was so pre-curated; that’s also why it seemed more “fair.” There’s an abundance of information now if you look for it. I prefer news streams from former Warsaw Block countries.

Chauncey Gardiner
Chauncey Gardiner
1 year ago

A political cartoon from the late 1980’s keeps coming to mind.
One pile of skulls exclaims, “We’re winning!” An opposing pile of skulls contends, “No, we are!”
It was about the Iran-Iraq war.
It was easier to get information about the Iran-Iraq war than it is about the war in the Ukraine.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

I almost laughed myself off my chair when I read the childish claims that Ukraine’s casualties are EIGHT TIMES higher than Ukraine’s.
That only happens in something called “a rout,” such as the Six Day War or the offensive on Iraq. In every other war in history the attacker always suffers more than the defender–until when/if a rout occurs.
Why not just say “we killed a gazillion-gazillion Hokols?”
Moreover, Russia is using artillery that is either WWII or Soviet era, or whose gun barrels have worn out from a year’s intense fire. They are wildly inaccurate.
Russia also has almost no ability to recon, since the Russian air force doesn’t dare venture into Ukrainian air space, and their army’s drones don’t work in winter.
Remember, the hapless Russian “mobiks” come from the least educated part of society.
Whereas, on the Ukrainian side, this is a People in Arms, with people from all levels of society. Ukrainians have far more cheap drones–and far more people with the skills to use them.
Patrikarakos’ report accurately reflects the mood in the ranks. Every Russian speaker who voted for the peace candidate Zelensky feels betrayed. Putin promised not to invade right up to 24 Feb.
Now they want to kill every “mobik” they can catch.
So be prepared.
When they get their Leopards and Bradleys ready, this isn’t going to be pretty.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Nice to see that I am read!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yeah and flagging off the people that have called out your b*** sh*t. Low.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The Censor is busy today and has almost ruined this interesting conversation sadly Ms Emery.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Very busy. Every time I have replied on that thread its been removed. I didn’t even swear.
In fact I’d just replied to your earlier post and it was gone!

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

You two are not kidding. I made a long reply to your long and thoughtful reply above, in what I though was a sane, civil, even feel-good exchange. But both posts were disappeared. Are there certain verboten views on this topic here?
Perhaps we’ll see them trickle in hours later, which is far from UnHerd of (I know).

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you! I hoped it was feel good and reasonably balanced, tried not to get my rant on too much. I’ll look out for your reply 🙂
I’m not sure if it is unherd censorship or comment flagging. Others seem to have had trouble too above, maybe we could have some guidance if it is a topic with views that they have to censor?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Maybe so. Those specific comments seem like strange ones to censor or for anyone else to flag though.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

It’s still happening……

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

It’s still happening……

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Maybe so. Those specific comments seem like strange ones to censor or for anyone else to flag though.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Thank you! I hoped it was feel good and reasonably balanced, tried not to get my rant on too much. I’ll look out for your reply 🙂
I’m not sure if it is unherd censorship or comment flagging. Others seem to have had trouble too above, maybe we could have some guidance if it is a topic with views that they have to censor?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

You two are not kidding. I made a long reply to your long and thoughtful reply above, in what I though was a sane, civil, even feel-good exchange. But both posts were disappeared. Are there certain verboten views on this topic here?
Perhaps we’ll see them trickle in hours later, which is far from UnHerd of (I know).

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Very busy. Every time I have replied on that thread its been removed. I didn’t even swear.
In fact I’d just replied to your earlier post and it was gone!

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

The Censor is busy today and has almost ruined this interesting conversation sadly Ms Emery.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Would you like to correct your first sentence.
There is an edit facility!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Yeah and flagging off the people that have called out your b*** sh*t. Low.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Would you like to correct your first sentence.
There is an edit facility!

Maurice Austin
Maurice Austin
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I think you need to edit your first sentence: Ukraine’s casualties are EIGHT TIMES higher than Ukraine’s.?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Your first sentence needs revision.. might be a slip of the old Freudian whassit?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Nice to see that I am read!

Maurice Austin
Maurice Austin
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I think you need to edit your first sentence: Ukraine’s casualties are EIGHT TIMES higher than Ukraine’s.?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Your first sentence needs revision.. might be a slip of the old Freudian whassit?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

I almost laughed myself off my chair when I read the childish claims that Ukraine’s casualties are EIGHT TIMES higher than Ukraine’s.
That only happens in something called “a rout,” such as the Six Day War or the offensive on Iraq. In every other war in history the attacker always suffers more than the defender–until when/if a rout occurs.
Why not just say “we killed a gazillion-gazillion Hokols?”
Moreover, Russia is using artillery that is either WWII or Soviet era, or whose gun barrels have worn out from a year’s intense fire. They are wildly inaccurate.
Russia also has almost no ability to recon, since the Russian air force doesn’t dare venture into Ukrainian air space, and their army’s drones don’t work in winter.
Remember, the hapless Russian “mobiks” come from the least educated part of society.
Whereas, on the Ukrainian side, this is a People in Arms, with people from all levels of society. Ukrainians have far more cheap drones–and far more people with the skills to use them.
Patrikarakos’ report accurately reflects the mood in the ranks. Every Russian speaker who voted for the peace candidate Zelensky feels betrayed. Putin promised not to invade right up to 24 Feb.
Now they want to kill every “mobik” they can catch.
So be prepared.
When they get their Leopards and Bradleys ready, this isn’t going to be pretty.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
1 year ago

The UK MoD tells you Bakhmut has little value, but obviously the protagonists who actually have skin in the game, Russia and Ukraine, see it differently.
You should ask why the MoD is lying to you about that, and if they lie about that, what other lies they are telling.

David Walters
David Walters
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Johnson

Simple really. To win a war you have to defeat the forces of the enemy. If the Russians advance on an unimportant place, that gives Ukraine an opportunity to attrite them that risks little crucial ground. If the Ukrainians do not fight them there, the Russians will advance to somewhere important where the Ukrainians would risk losing far more than men.

David Walters
David Walters
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Johnson

Simple really. To win a war you have to defeat the forces of the enemy. If the Russians advance on an unimportant place, that gives Ukraine an opportunity to attrite them that risks little crucial ground. If the Ukrainians do not fight them there, the Russians will advance to somewhere important where the Ukrainians would risk losing far more than men.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
1 year ago

The UK MoD tells you Bakhmut has little value, but obviously the protagonists who actually have skin in the game, Russia and Ukraine, see it differently.
You should ask why the MoD is lying to you about that, and if they lie about that, what other lies they are telling.

Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago

Deep State propaganda makes you a good ally. Ukraine has lost more soldiers than Russia but using inversion is a time tested technique of agit propping.

Simon S
Simon S
1 year ago

“The objective for today is to come back alive.” Yevgeny is a young commando from the “Mad Pack”, a special forces unit that has been fighting in Bakhmut since November. His words are familiar — lacquered with that mix of emotions common to almost all soldiers fighting on the frontlines of war: laughter and unease. We clamber into a Land Cruiser and head toward the city. “The situation is always changing,” he continues. “But one thing remains the same: the line of contact is always active.”

It eventually transpires you are with a Ukrainian unit. Why do you assume I assume that?

Simon S
Simon S
1 year ago

“The objective for today is to come back alive.” Yevgeny is a young commando from the “Mad Pack”, a special forces unit that has been fighting in Bakhmut since November. His words are familiar — lacquered with that mix of emotions common to almost all soldiers fighting on the frontlines of war: laughter and unease. We clamber into a Land Cruiser and head toward the city. “The situation is always changing,” he continues. “But one thing remains the same: the line of contact is always active.”

It eventually transpires you are with a Ukrainian unit. Why do you assume I assume that?

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago

This writer is off his proverbial trolley. The cool tattoos, the topknots and swaggering cigarette smoking poet/warrriors have blinded him to reality. The worst part is the confession by projection. Any serious analysis of the Battle of Bahkmut paints the entirely opposite picture. It is in fact the unfortunate reality that it is Ukraine that is suffering unsubstainable losses. Russia does not fight with ‘human wave’ tactics. That is entirely projection. Russia fights in BTG formations ( Battalion Tactical Groups) where virtually every man has a seat inside armour. Only after days and days of constant shelling does a Russian infantry soldier ever venture into the open. Russia is very casualty averse. That is not to say that the Russian side does not suffer serious losses. They do. However it is likely an 8:1 advantage for Russia. Ukraine airforce no longer exists. They beg for tanks and armour because Russia has destroyed most of what they had. Ukraine is in a very serious manpower crisis. They are tapped out of fighting age men. (Its estimated that 1 to 1.5 million fighting age Ukrainian men are abroad but those arent coming back voluntarily)

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Sounds like the major global powers and news sources are deluded, and that Putin’s army will soon prevail–according to your analysis and apparent rooting interest.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

…how about leaving it at “your analysis” why did you have to throw in “and apparent rooting interest”. Just a disingenuous and entirely unnecessary slight. Apologise!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Haha! Heck no. That’s what I detect in the above post and the poster–whose extreme views I’ve encountered on other boards–can contradict or explode my accusation if he wants to.
I admit that I wasn’t as polite as it possibly could be, but how can you of all people, Mr. O’ Mahony–take issue with unnecessary slights? You are one of the most consistently self-certain, angry, and rude people on this whole site, which is quite an accomplishment if not something I’d be proud of.
You are no stranger to the unnecessary slight yourself, sir. Most of what gets said here is unnecessary according to any strict definition of need, but that doesn’t mean it’s unwarranted–or that your owed an apology on your comrade’s behalf.

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My extreme views? On other boards? Really? Oh please tell me where to find some of them so I can revist.

Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Unherd appears to make it glitchy for those who dont follow establishment narratives on the war. You are spot on. Tried to upvote but was prevented.

Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Unherd appears to make it glitchy for those who dont follow establishment narratives on the war. You are spot on. Tried to upvote but was prevented.

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My extreme views? On other boards? Really? Oh please tell me where to find some of them so I can revist.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Haha! Heck no. That’s what I detect in the above post and the poster–whose extreme views I’ve encountered on other boards–can contradict or explode my accusation if he wants to.
I admit that I wasn’t as polite as it possibly could be, but how can you of all people, Mr. O’ Mahony–take issue with unnecessary slights? You are one of the most consistently self-certain, angry, and rude people on this whole site, which is quite an accomplishment if not something I’d be proud of.
You are no stranger to the unnecessary slight yourself, sir. Most of what gets said here is unnecessary according to any strict definition of need, but that doesn’t mean it’s unwarranted–or that your owed an apology on your comrade’s behalf.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

…how about leaving it at “your analysis” why did you have to throw in “and apparent rooting interest”. Just a disingenuous and entirely unnecessary slight. Apologise!

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Tend to agree with you – all the non MSM sources describe a very different battle. The Russians are creating a cauldron around Bahkmut and sucking in Ukrainian forces and decimating them with artillery fire which as you point out they have an 8 to 1 advantage.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Whatever is actually happening on the ground, and we all simply don’t know, we can be sure of one thing. That is, the accepted narrative must be something that keeps the military industrial complex alive and well.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Yes. Everything leads back to the MIC and the US’s last gasp attempt to save the dollar and One World Order..

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Yes. Everything leads back to the MIC and the US’s last gasp attempt to save the dollar and One World Order..

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

Whatever is actually happening on the ground, and we all simply don’t know, we can be sure of one thing. That is, the accepted narrative must be something that keeps the military industrial complex alive and well.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

MG, he knows the truth, but he’s a neocon he has to lie for the cause

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Ukraine has a million-man reserve it can call on.
And any army that doesn’t have enough infantry to fight OUTSIDE the vehicle can be destroyed by dismounted infantry.
That’s the whole reason the attacks on Kyiv and Kharkiv failed
No dismounted infantry.
Learn something about war.
It’s really interested in you.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Ukraine is in a desperate manpower crisis. If you believe they have one million ready and in reserve then I have a bridge to sell you. Russia has a mission: de-militarize Ukraine. Timeline: as long as it takes.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Then why hasn’t Putin actually called up more men?
He has about a quarter of a million men in Ukraine, about half are the new, poorly trained “mobiks” (or “speed bumps” as they are also called).
Not exactly Stalin’s Five Corps of Siberian Ski troops in 1941, is it?

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Then why hasn’t Putin actually called up more men?
He has about a quarter of a million men in Ukraine, about half are the new, poorly trained “mobiks” (or “speed bumps” as they are also called).
Not exactly Stalin’s Five Corps of Siberian Ski troops in 1941, is it?

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Ukraine is in a desperate manpower crisis. If you believe they have one million ready and in reserve then I have a bridge to sell you. Russia has a mission: de-militarize Ukraine. Timeline: as long as it takes.

Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Yes. You are right. Tried to upvote but was prevented by site again

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Sounds like the major global powers and news sources are deluded, and that Putin’s army will soon prevail–according to your analysis and apparent rooting interest.

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Tend to agree with you – all the non MSM sources describe a very different battle. The Russians are creating a cauldron around Bahkmut and sucking in Ukrainian forces and decimating them with artillery fire which as you point out they have an 8 to 1 advantage.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

MG, he knows the truth, but he’s a neocon he has to lie for the cause

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Ukraine has a million-man reserve it can call on.
And any army that doesn’t have enough infantry to fight OUTSIDE the vehicle can be destroyed by dismounted infantry.
That’s the whole reason the attacks on Kyiv and Kharkiv failed
No dismounted infantry.
Learn something about war.
It’s really interested in you.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago
Reply to  M. Gatt

Yes. You are right. Tried to upvote but was prevented by site again

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago

This writer is off his proverbial trolley. The cool tattoos, the topknots and swaggering cigarette smoking poet/warrriors have blinded him to reality. The worst part is the confession by projection. Any serious analysis of the Battle of Bahkmut paints the entirely opposite picture. It is in fact the unfortunate reality that it is Ukraine that is suffering unsubstainable losses. Russia does not fight with ‘human wave’ tactics. That is entirely projection. Russia fights in BTG formations ( Battalion Tactical Groups) where virtually every man has a seat inside armour. Only after days and days of constant shelling does a Russian infantry soldier ever venture into the open. Russia is very casualty averse. That is not to say that the Russian side does not suffer serious losses. They do. However it is likely an 8:1 advantage for Russia. Ukraine airforce no longer exists. They beg for tanks and armour because Russia has destroyed most of what they had. Ukraine is in a very serious manpower crisis. They are tapped out of fighting age men. (Its estimated that 1 to 1.5 million fighting age Ukrainian men are abroad but those arent coming back voluntarily)

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago

Amazing piece of propaganda, Russians are dying by the thousand in Bakhmut, but no Ukrainian ever dies

The Russian army can’t shoot straight and the Ukrainian army never misses

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Try reading the article again.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

I did read it, I liked the part that said they were now dropping sex toys on the Russians, so we can now add grenades to the long list of weapons the Ukrainian army is running out of

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Well this may be news to you but you didn’t as others have pointed out. Thing is, to equate your views and mentality to the period 1939-45 you’ll be siding with one of the worst despots the planet has experienced, as do your like minded commenters on this thread. Then you can throw in Stalin and his protege Putin, and that tells us where you’re coming from either geographically or mentally.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

So…? ..doesn’t negate the point dies it? in fact kind proves it almost, doesn’t it?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

So…? ..doesn’t negate the point dies it? in fact kind proves it almost, doesn’t it?

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Well this may be news to you but you didn’t as others have pointed out. Thing is, to equate your views and mentality to the period 1939-45 you’ll be siding with one of the worst despots the planet has experienced, as do your like minded commenters on this thread. Then you can throw in Stalin and his protege Putin, and that tells us where you’re coming from either geographically or mentally.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  stephen archer

I did read it, I liked the part that said they were now dropping sex toys on the Russians, so we can now add grenades to the long list of weapons the Ukrainian army is running out of

Gordon Welford
Gordon Welford
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Significant losses says the article.Read it properly

Elliott Starks
Elliott Starks
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

That must have been edited out since you read the article.

Maurice Austin
Maurice Austin
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Starks

“The situation is difficult, he admits, but controlled. The Ukrainians have suffered significant losses, as have the enemy. ” 9.25pm GMT

Maurice Austin
Maurice Austin
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Starks

“The situation is difficult, he admits, but controlled. The Ukrainians have suffered significant losses, as have the enemy. ” 9.25pm GMT

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Unbiased military sources estimate that 8-10 Ukrainian soldiers are dying for every Russian soldier. Former U.S. Marine Scott Ritter, former U.S. Marine Tony Cartalucci (who hosts The New Atlas on YouTube) and retired U.S. Army colonel (and former tank commander) Douglas Mcgregor provide invaluable insight (YouTube) into what’s actually happening on the Ukrainian battlefield, and what the end game will be. Consensus: Ukraine loses…and the total death count will be unimaginable. But, The U.S. Military Industrial Complex will win again, as it always does. It seems that the South Korean, Polish, Chinese, Czech, Iranian, Turkish and Russian military industrial manufacturers are also having a sales bonanza as weaponry is depleted in Ukraine and Russia, and an inexhaustible amount of money is available to buy replacement munitions.
” War is hugely profitable. It creates so much money because it’s so easy to spend money very fast. There are huge fortunes to be made. So there is always an encouragement to promote war and keep it going, to make sure that we identify people who are ‘others’ whom we can legitimately make war upon. ” Roger Waters
YouTube/Rumble shows Redacted, Kim Iverson, The Grayzone, Alex Christoforou, Judge Napolitano, and The Duran all provide none Mainstream Media assessments of the Ukraine proxy war…which is unabashedly being hosted by the U.S. and NATO.

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

“Unbiased sources” – by what metric? They’ve been reporting Russian victory in Bakhmut for weeks now, yet it grinds on.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

They’ve been claiming victory for SEVEN months.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

They’ve been claiming victory for SEVEN months.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Ah, yes, the Scott Ritter that supports ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.
Scott Ritter the convicted sex offender.
THAT Scott Ritter…
But the referenced garbage sites don’t mention that attackers always lose more people than defenders.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Tom Conroy
Tom Conroy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Attackers don’t always lose more people than defenders, particularly not if the attackers have far greater fire power and air superiority.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Conroy

Singapore, 1942.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Wow, I didn’t’ know the Russian Navy had isolated Bakhmut.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Wow, I didn’t’ know the Russian Navy had isolated Bakhmut.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Conroy

The Russians have to first draw the Ukrainian fire, which can only come from sending infantry forward to die.
No other army in history has done what Russia is supposed to be doing–and it doesn’t advance an inch.
Anyone who knows anything about war realizes that these claims are all crap created by Russia.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Conroy

Singapore, 1942.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Conroy

The Russians have to first draw the Ukrainian fire, which can only come from sending infantry forward to die.
No other army in history has done what Russia is supposed to be doing–and it doesn’t advance an inch.
Anyone who knows anything about war realizes that these claims are all crap created by Russia.

Tom Conroy
Tom Conroy
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Attackers don’t always lose more people than defenders, particularly not if the attackers have far greater fire power and air superiority.

Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Spot on. You could also mention Mossad the Israeli intelligence service. They are pro Ukraine and anti Russian so you are getting fairly accurate figures from them on casualties and losses of equipment e.g. 154000 Ukrainain soldiers killed so far. So the New Atlas figures for example can be crosschecked with Mossad.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

No one estimates that. 100,0000 total Ukrainian military casualties has been publicized. Maybe 150,000 TOTAL casualties if you include civilians. But only a small portion of that is KIA.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Watkins

No one estimates that. 100,0000 total Ukrainian military casualties has been publicized. Maybe 150,000 TOTAL casualties if you include civilians. But only a small portion of that is KIA.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

The author of this dispatch has written multiple articles emphasizing Evil Empire Russian badness and Ukrainian righteousness…Russian military weakness and Ukraine’s unrelenting battlefield strength. I’m just saying that there are other easily accessed points of view that aren’t ideological in bent, but rather are objective takes on Russian/Ukraine military stratagem, available fire power, troop strength and ongoing conscription, limitations for boots-on-the-ground being deployed by NATO and/or the United States (other than mercenaries and embedded Special Forces), the rapid depletion of Ukrainian munitions (which Zelensky is incessantly confirming), the dearth of readily available inventories of foreign tanks and rockets, the unavailability of a NO FLY ZONE over Ukraine, the lack of Ukrainian air support from NATO, the waning of support by both European and American citizenry towards the Ukraine war…etc.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Well said in both posts.
In a nutshell “It’s all over bar the shouting”.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Well said in both posts.
In a nutshell “It’s all over bar the shouting”.

Mike Wylde
Mike Wylde
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

That’s because Wagner casualties are not counted because they’re not Russian soldiers but private contractors.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike Wylde

Same for USA & UK in Iraq. Plus ça change……..

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike Wylde

Same for USA & UK in Iraq. Plus ça change……..

BN2020
BN2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

No need to explain Abe … Let people just listen to Soldier X in interview with Willy (Australian guy) If you do not believe what Scott and McGregor say then listen to guy who is training Ukrainian forces and was working in Bakhmut. Enjoy… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKZpYglZrW4&t=0s

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  BN2020

Amazing link – I have to go but will finish it later – the fascinating part is the Russian drone superority as they have a top DJI Team of Chinese Drone makers right there with the Russians keeping the system and getting it to be more effective – which the Aus guy who was with the Ukrainians calls very worrying.

So as this Aus SF was embedded with Ukrainians to train them – China has its Chinese CCP tech guys embedded with Russians to train and to enable their tech dominance! Also he says Russians are amazing at tracking every phone – and so on, so they really have much better intelligence of the battle field in many ways.

That Biden chose to drive Russia into Chinese Arms is insane.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  BN2020

Amazing link – I have to go but will finish it later – the fascinating part is the Russian drone superority as they have a top DJI Team of Chinese Drone makers right there with the Russians keeping the system and getting it to be more effective – which the Aus guy who was with the Ukrainians calls very worrying.

So as this Aus SF was embedded with Ukrainians to train them – China has its Chinese CCP tech guys embedded with Russians to train and to enable their tech dominance! Also he says Russians are amazing at tracking every phone – and so on, so they really have much better intelligence of the battle field in many ways.

That Biden chose to drive Russia into Chinese Arms is insane.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Patently absurd. Human waves attacks against fortified position are inflicting more casualties than they are taking? Can’t happen.
The ratio is probably far closer to 10:1 Russian to Ukrainian casualties in Bakhmut. Credible stimates for the whole war are around 2:1; 200,000 Russians vs 100,000 Ukrainians. Ukraine has suffered far fewer dead though, b/c they actually care above their soldiers and provide medical care.

Antony Hirst
Antony Hirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Where did you get that info. It is UA who are forced into manoeuvre warfare and w
Wagner are CQB specialists. I don’t see it.

Antony Hirst
Antony Hirst
1 year ago
Reply to  Snapper AG

Where did you get that info. It is UA who are forced into manoeuvre warfare and w
Wagner are CQB specialists. I don’t see it.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Those sources are hardly unbiased and are still American. Try any foreign channel, choose Al-Jazeera if you like.

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

“Unbiased sources” – by what metric? They’ve been reporting Russian victory in Bakhmut for weeks now, yet it grinds on.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Ah, yes, the Scott Ritter that supports ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.
Scott Ritter the convicted sex offender.
THAT Scott Ritter…
But the referenced garbage sites don’t mention that attackers always lose more people than defenders.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Jeff Watkins
Jeff Watkins
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Spot on. You could also mention Mossad the Israeli intelligence service. They are pro Ukraine and anti Russian so you are getting fairly accurate figures from them on casualties and losses of equipment e.g. 154000 Ukrainain soldiers killed so far. So the New Atlas figures for example can be crosschecked with Mossad.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

The author of this dispatch has written multiple articles emphasizing Evil Empire Russian badness and Ukrainian righteousness…Russian military weakness and Ukraine’s unrelenting battlefield strength. I’m just saying that there are other easily accessed points of view that aren’t ideological in bent, but rather are objective takes on Russian/Ukraine military stratagem, available fire power, troop strength and ongoing conscription, limitations for boots-on-the-ground being deployed by NATO and/or the United States (other than mercenaries and embedded Special Forces), the rapid depletion of Ukrainian munitions (which Zelensky is incessantly confirming), the dearth of readily available inventories of foreign tanks and rockets, the unavailability of a NO FLY ZONE over Ukraine, the lack of Ukrainian air support from NATO, the waning of support by both European and American citizenry towards the Ukraine war…etc.

Mike Wylde
Mike Wylde
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

That’s because Wagner casualties are not counted because they’re not Russian soldiers but private contractors.

BN2020
BN2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

No need to explain Abe … Let people just listen to Soldier X in interview with Willy (Australian guy) If you do not believe what Scott and McGregor say then listen to guy who is training Ukrainian forces and was working in Bakhmut. Enjoy… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKZpYglZrW4&t=0s

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Patently absurd. Human waves attacks against fortified position are inflicting more casualties than they are taking? Can’t happen.
The ratio is probably far closer to 10:1 Russian to Ukrainian casualties in Bakhmut. Credible stimates for the whole war are around 2:1; 200,000 Russians vs 100,000 Ukrainians. Ukraine has suffered far fewer dead though, b/c they actually care above their soldiers and provide medical care.

Maso ala
Maso ala
1 year ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

Those sources are hardly unbiased and are still American. Try any foreign channel, choose Al-Jazeera if you like.

chris organ
chris organ
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

I agree – total propagandising. I wnted to vote positively on this comment but it’s clearly being manipulated and would not accept. I was able to downvote fine but would not enable removing it.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  chris organ

Tell us of the poor young men drafted to this, getting legs blown off – and WHY. Not some disgusting, professional, foreign Mercenaries.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  chris organ

That is a concern….. So easy for algorithms to manipulate opinion.
My view – America is responsible for a lot of problems.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  chris organ

Tell us of the poor young men drafted to this, getting legs blown off – and WHY. Not some disgusting, professional, foreign Mercenaries.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  chris organ

That is a concern….. So easy for algorithms to manipulate opinion.
My view – America is responsible for a lot of problems.

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Try reading the article again.

Gordon Welford
Gordon Welford
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Significant losses says the article.Read it properly

Elliott Starks
Elliott Starks
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

That must have been edited out since you read the article.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Unbiased military sources estimate that 8-10 Ukrainian soldiers are dying for every Russian soldier. Former U.S. Marine Scott Ritter, former U.S. Marine Tony Cartalucci (who hosts The New Atlas on YouTube) and retired U.S. Army colonel (and former tank commander) Douglas Mcgregor provide invaluable insight (YouTube) into what’s actually happening on the Ukrainian battlefield, and what the end game will be. Consensus: Ukraine loses…and the total death count will be unimaginable. But, The U.S. Military Industrial Complex will win again, as it always does. It seems that the South Korean, Polish, Chinese, Czech, Iranian, Turkish and Russian military industrial manufacturers are also having a sales bonanza as weaponry is depleted in Ukraine and Russia, and an inexhaustible amount of money is available to buy replacement munitions.
” War is hugely profitable. It creates so much money because it’s so easy to spend money very fast. There are huge fortunes to be made. So there is always an encouragement to promote war and keep it going, to make sure that we identify people who are ‘others’ whom we can legitimately make war upon. ” Roger Waters
YouTube/Rumble shows Redacted, Kim Iverson, The Grayzone, Alex Christoforou, Judge Napolitano, and The Duran all provide none Mainstream Media assessments of the Ukraine proxy war…which is unabashedly being hosted by the U.S. and NATO.

chris organ
chris organ
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

I agree – total propagandising. I wnted to vote positively on this comment but it’s clearly being manipulated and would not accept. I was able to downvote fine but would not enable removing it.

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago

Amazing piece of propaganda, Russians are dying by the thousand in Bakhmut, but no Ukrainian ever dies

The Russian army can’t shoot straight and the Ukrainian army never misses

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago

“How much evidence is required before it is clear that Western Civilization is empty of integrity, judgment, reason, morality, empathy, compassion, self-awareness, truth, empty of everything that Western Civilization once respected?

All that is left of the West is insouciance and unrestrained evil.”

~Paul Craig Roberts, former Undersecretrary Of Treasury, Reagan Administration

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Still 1000% better than Russia or China.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Still 1000% better than Russia or China.

P Branagan
P Branagan
1 year ago

“How much evidence is required before it is clear that Western Civilization is empty of integrity, judgment, reason, morality, empathy, compassion, self-awareness, truth, empty of everything that Western Civilization once respected?

All that is left of the West is insouciance and unrestrained evil.”

~Paul Craig Roberts, former Undersecretrary Of Treasury, Reagan Administration

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

It’s shameful. I had 4 comments on this article removed… or should I say censored. If you don’t emphatically profess a belief that the Ukrainian military, supported by the U.S. and NATO, is going to outright win a war against Russia, with the 5th largest army in the world, the world’s largest nuclear arsenal, the 3rd largest air force in the world, and state-of-the-art weapons of mass destruction available to it…then UnHerd doesn’t want to hear from you. Like I said, ” Shameful “.
Today Ukraine announced that its lowered the age of conscription, that’s forced service in the Ukraine military, to 16 years old…16. They’re already recruiting men up to 60 years old to fight…60 years old. Sounds like desperation…not a formula for victory.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
1 year ago

It’s shameful. I had 4 comments on this article removed… or should I say censored. If you don’t emphatically profess a belief that the Ukrainian military, supported by the U.S. and NATO, is going to outright win a war against Russia, with the 5th largest army in the world, the world’s largest nuclear arsenal, the 3rd largest air force in the world, and state-of-the-art weapons of mass destruction available to it…then UnHerd doesn’t want to hear from you. Like I said, ” Shameful “.
Today Ukraine announced that its lowered the age of conscription, that’s forced service in the Ukraine military, to 16 years old…16. They’re already recruiting men up to 60 years old to fight…60 years old. Sounds like desperation…not a formula for victory.

Richard Katz
Richard Katz
1 year ago

Patrikaros ,superficial article, could be Sky news simply Ukrainian pufff piece.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Katz

The guy is on the front lines. Try to show some respect.

chris organ
chris organ
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Katz

Manipulation of votes again! Unhinged – soon to be unread!

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  chris organ

They delete anything I write on Ukraine – Unherd is total agenda plus a bit of controlled opposition to pretend they are not part of the global lies and misinformation.

Come on Unherd – just bann me instead of your shadow banning – PUSS**S!

Maurice Austin
Maurice Austin
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Just a test to see if pussies gets through. I tried it with “pray” the other day and it worked.

Last edited 1 year ago by Maurice Austin
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Maurice Austin

The spelled-out version of “b.s.” was getting through until lately but it looks like they’ve put a stop to that.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Maurice Austin

The spelled-out version of “b.s.” was getting through until lately but it looks like they’ve put a stop to that.

Maurice Austin
Maurice Austin
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Just a test to see if pussies gets through. I tried it with “pray” the other day and it worked.

Last edited 1 year ago by Maurice Austin
Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago
Reply to  chris organ

They delete anything I write on Ukraine – Unherd is total agenda plus a bit of controlled opposition to pretend they are not part of the global lies and misinformation.

Come on Unherd – just bann me instead of your shadow banning – PUSS**S!

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Katz

What are you expecting?
Its seems a pretty reasonable human interest account of life on the front line in a war zone.
To get a balanced view would require a reporter to go to the front line with Russian troops – and certainly the Russian view would add perspective – but its not particularly practical. You’d have to leave that to another journalist and then everyone would be piling in with comments about Russian propaganda.
I don’t see what there is to complain about – unless it doesn’t meet some expectation you have that was not the intent of the author.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Katz

The guy is on the front lines. Try to show some respect.

chris organ
chris organ
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Katz

Manipulation of votes again! Unhinged – soon to be unread!

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Katz

What are you expecting?
Its seems a pretty reasonable human interest account of life on the front line in a war zone.
To get a balanced view would require a reporter to go to the front line with Russian troops – and certainly the Russian view would add perspective – but its not particularly practical. You’d have to leave that to another journalist and then everyone would be piling in with comments about Russian propaganda.
I don’t see what there is to complain about – unless it doesn’t meet some expectation you have that was not the intent of the author.

Richard Katz
Richard Katz
1 year ago

Patrikaros ,superficial article, could be Sky news simply Ukrainian pufff piece.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

“Russian troops are dying in their thousands here — and possibly for nothing.”
And there you wiped out any credibility or respect for yourself.
Yes, we know Russians bad, Ukrainians good, the ones who destroyed Iraq and Libya for fun even better and noble.

But there is a good reason Russian troops are dying to capture Bakhmut. It is the key linchpin of the Ukrainian defenses in the entire region, a major transport and logistics hub.

And the fact that, after massive casualties for the Ukrainian side, and months of feeding their troops into a meat grinder, Bakhmut is suddenly of “limited operational value” says it all.
Surrounded on three sides, outgunned by Russian artillery.
And the attack is primarily by Wagner. Who, incidentally, are far better equipped and trained than the “regular” Ukrainian troops, as a western mercenary let slip.
And while Ukraine loses Bakhmut to a bunch of ex convicts, the 300,000 strong fresh Russian reserves are still uncommitted.

Incidentally, for all the talk of drones dropping grenades and sex toys, Napoleon’s maxim still holds true: God is on the side that has the most artillery.

And also, disparaging Russian authors doesn’t quite prove your Ukrainian chums (or their western allies) to be the cultured lot that they think they are.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

What’s your favorite thing about Putin: His shirtless equestrian poses or megalomaniacal water-testing invasions?

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My favourite thing?
He does what his people want and what’s best for his nation.
If Putin was the leader of Britain,there wouldn’t be a lot of opposition left, and government critics would mysteriously die with the same frequency as those who prove inconvenient to the Clinton’s.
And I am happy we have our bumbling idiots instead of what’s effectively a dictatorship.
But – Putin would also make sure illegal immigration stops, Brexit gets done, and Britain does what’s is in British interests.

On the other hand, if UK conservatives were in charge of Russia, they would happily leave office once the electorate gets disgusted- but they would merrily allow NATO to expand to Russian borders, let US corporates asset strip Russian assets and let the woke take over Russia.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You could hardly have laid your abject Putin fandom, and support for bloody authoritiarianism in general, more bare. Points for candor. I hope you’re joking a little but I detect no subtlety and scarcely any humor in your posts.
Of course there wouldn’t be many outspoken opponents left if your hero became the dictator of Britain too: most who remained alive and free would be silent–or else–something you celebrate and at the same to attempt to minimize by pretending that the Clintons have a list of Politskayas, Yevloyevs, and Navalnys, plus so many nameless victims, that rival Putin’s–or even any demonstrable “personal enemies murdered and imprisoned list” that doesn’t involve you linking us to some blogpost rant about Vince Foster or whatever.
Putin is much more in the model of Stalin or Napoleon– one of whom you openly admire, but probably Stalin too–than Churchill or Victoria, whose warlike and imperial sympathies were balanced by ideals and a comparatively big human hearts in addition to colossal nerve (or big brass stones).

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

..”Churchill or Victoria, whose warlike and imperial sympathies were balanced by ideals and a comparatively big human hearts”.. What? What? Tell that to the concentration camp victims in South Africa, the murdered Kenyans and the famine victims in Ireland and India! Delusion is wonderful apparently!

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Short of parroting your views, it’s almost impossible to have a civil exchange with you man. You just devolve into insult and abuse so readily, yet demand an apology from me? Wow, dude.
Yes I think Victoria and Churchill had bigger hearts and better intentions than Stalin or Napoleon. Now, I can picture a legitimate disagreement with my suspiciously mainstream opinion. But my assertion is delusional?
I didn’t say they were saints.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Short of parroting your views, it’s almost impossible to have a civil exchange with you man. You just devolve into insult and abuse so readily, yet demand an apology from me? Wow, dude.
Yes I think Victoria and Churchill had bigger hearts and better intentions than Stalin or Napoleon. Now, I can picture a legitimate disagreement with my suspiciously mainstream opinion. But my assertion is delusional?
I didn’t say they were saints.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

..”Churchill or Victoria, whose warlike and imperial sympathies were balanced by ideals and a comparatively big human hearts”.. What? What? Tell that to the concentration camp victims in South Africa, the murdered Kenyans and the famine victims in Ireland and India! Delusion is wonderful apparently!

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Excellent and true, your’e wasting your breath though with most of this lot, they are all MSM readers…. sad really.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You could hardly have laid your abject Putin fandom, and support for bloody authoritiarianism in general, more bare. Points for candor. I hope you’re joking a little but I detect no subtlety and scarcely any humor in your posts.
Of course there wouldn’t be many outspoken opponents left if your hero became the dictator of Britain too: most who remained alive and free would be silent–or else–something you celebrate and at the same to attempt to minimize by pretending that the Clintons have a list of Politskayas, Yevloyevs, and Navalnys, plus so many nameless victims, that rival Putin’s–or even any demonstrable “personal enemies murdered and imprisoned list” that doesn’t involve you linking us to some blogpost rant about Vince Foster or whatever.
Putin is much more in the model of Stalin or Napoleon– one of whom you openly admire, but probably Stalin too–than Churchill or Victoria, whose warlike and imperial sympathies were balanced by ideals and a comparatively big human hearts in addition to colossal nerve (or big brass stones).

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Excellent and true, your’e wasting your breath though with most of this lot, they are all MSM readers…. sad really.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

My favourite thing?
He does what his people want and what’s best for his nation.
If Putin was the leader of Britain,there wouldn’t be a lot of opposition left, and government critics would mysteriously die with the same frequency as those who prove inconvenient to the Clinton’s.
And I am happy we have our bumbling idiots instead of what’s effectively a dictatorship.
But – Putin would also make sure illegal immigration stops, Brexit gets done, and Britain does what’s is in British interests.

On the other hand, if UK conservatives were in charge of Russia, they would happily leave office once the electorate gets disgusted- but they would merrily allow NATO to expand to Russian borders, let US corporates asset strip Russian assets and let the woke take over Russia.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Thanks for countering the simplemindedness of “Ukrainians good, Russians bad” with your own black-and-white bumper sticker: “Russians strong and right. Ukrainians weak and wrong”.
Who’s you favorite narcisissistic authoritarian: Putin or Orbán?
I don’t think the woman quoted was disparaging Dostoevsky directly but saying that many among the Russian-identified Ukraine-border crowd could barely speak Russian themselves, let alone read the original text of the classics. But she certainly isn’t sophisticated enough to see the benefit of her own culture’s eradication or absorption in the Russian leviathan.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Ah, Napoleon: History’s great, non-cautionary tale of a non-hubristic leader. A bit like Putin, in his fever dreams.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Napoleon, for all his flaws, was probably the greatest military general and thinker of all time.
His downfall was attacking Russia. Don’t think the same would apply for Putin.

And unlike what the movies tell you, the biggest killer of human beings in modern battlefields has always been artillery. Not tanks, infantry, sexy planes dropping fancy bombs, mines, drones…that big 5 or 6 inch ish howitzer you never even see.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Surely charismatic and a great military tactician to a point, but also power-mad and bloodthirsty, like Alexander the not-so-Great and a bit like Putin the Terrible when he shows his true colors and can remember to smile like a believable version of a humane person (to add a little charisma to the ruthless KGB ice-stare). If you were so convinced that Russia and the expansionist ambitions of Putin the First would prevail you might be less wildly insistent about it. Who are you trying to convince?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Sorry, that’s just clueless Russian doctrine. That only counts in static wars.
Tanks make the breakthroughs, then surround whole armies.
Might want to bone up on the Falaise Pocket and the Allied victories in 1944-5.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Surely charismatic and a great military tactician to a point, but also power-mad and bloodthirsty, like Alexander the not-so-Great and a bit like Putin the Terrible when he shows his true colors and can remember to smile like a believable version of a humane person (to add a little charisma to the ruthless KGB ice-stare). If you were so convinced that Russia and the expansionist ambitions of Putin the First would prevail you might be less wildly insistent about it. Who are you trying to convince?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Sorry, that’s just clueless Russian doctrine. That only counts in static wars.
Tanks make the breakthroughs, then surround whole armies.
Might want to bone up on the Falaise Pocket and the Allied victories in 1944-5.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Napoleon, for all his flaws, was probably the greatest military general and thinker of all time.
His downfall was attacking Russia. Don’t think the same would apply for Putin.

And unlike what the movies tell you, the biggest killer of human beings in modern battlefields has always been artillery. Not tanks, infantry, sexy planes dropping fancy bombs, mines, drones…that big 5 or 6 inch ish howitzer you never even see.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Vagner was attacking Soledar, not Bakhmut,
And half the 300,000 are already in the trenches and attacking Bakhmut, Vuhledar, Kreminna, etc.
Which was idiocy. They should have stayed on the defence and dug enough defences to stop the Leopards.
Now they will be as short of manpower as they were prior to the Kharkov-Kherson Ukrainian offensives.
Those poor Russians sucks…

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I thought it was the HIMARs that was going to make the big difference and win the war, so now its the Leopards

The obvious question is what happened to the tanks the Ukraine started the war with

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

They still have most.
But they are Russian. Ergo substandard.
The western tanks give anyone the edge.
Ask the Iraqis.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Probably sold on to every sick regime via the dark web..

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

They still have most.
But they are Russian. Ergo substandard.
The western tanks give anyone the edge.
Ask the Iraqis.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
1 year ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Probably sold on to every sick regime via the dark web..

D Walsh
D Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

I thought it was the HIMARs that was going to make the big difference and win the war, so now its the Leopards

The obvious question is what happened to the tanks the Ukraine started the war with

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

What’s your favorite thing about Putin: His shirtless equestrian poses or megalomaniacal water-testing invasions?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Thanks for countering the simplemindedness of “Ukrainians good, Russians bad” with your own black-and-white bumper sticker: “Russians strong and right. Ukrainians weak and wrong”.
Who’s you favorite narcisissistic authoritarian: Putin or Orbán?
I don’t think the woman quoted was disparaging Dostoevsky directly but saying that many among the Russian-identified Ukraine-border crowd could barely speak Russian themselves, let alone read the original text of the classics. But she certainly isn’t sophisticated enough to see the benefit of her own culture’s eradication or absorption in the Russian leviathan.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Ah, Napoleon: History’s great, non-cautionary tale of a non-hubristic leader. A bit like Putin, in his fever dreams.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Vagner was attacking Soledar, not Bakhmut,
And half the 300,000 are already in the trenches and attacking Bakhmut, Vuhledar, Kreminna, etc.
Which was idiocy. They should have stayed on the defence and dug enough defences to stop the Leopards.
Now they will be as short of manpower as they were prior to the Kharkov-Kherson Ukrainian offensives.
Those poor Russians sucks…

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

“Russian troops are dying in their thousands here — and possibly for nothing.”
And there you wiped out any credibility or respect for yourself.
Yes, we know Russians bad, Ukrainians good, the ones who destroyed Iraq and Libya for fun even better and noble.

But there is a good reason Russian troops are dying to capture Bakhmut. It is the key linchpin of the Ukrainian defenses in the entire region, a major transport and logistics hub.

And the fact that, after massive casualties for the Ukrainian side, and months of feeding their troops into a meat grinder, Bakhmut is suddenly of “limited operational value” says it all.
Surrounded on three sides, outgunned by Russian artillery.
And the attack is primarily by Wagner. Who, incidentally, are far better equipped and trained than the “regular” Ukrainian troops, as a western mercenary let slip.
And while Ukraine loses Bakhmut to a bunch of ex convicts, the 300,000 strong fresh Russian reserves are still uncommitted.

Incidentally, for all the talk of drones dropping grenades and sex toys, Napoleon’s maxim still holds true: God is on the side that has the most artillery.

And also, disparaging Russian authors doesn’t quite prove your Ukrainian chums (or their western allies) to be the cultured lot that they think they are.

Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

”Ivan is 34 and has been fighting since the war began in 2014. His unit is Special Forces, he says. He can’t give me details about their operations,”

Who has he been fighting? What? Why? Where? When? and How…Because that is pretty wild stuff.

Is this News? Drones dropping sex toys to shame the enemy? Meat Waves? Printed plastic sort of shuttlecocks they fill with explosive and drop from toy drones… When USA has sent $100,000,000,000 in aid, weapons, and tech-support? A $3000 drone with a grenade taking out a tank? A pistol snapped empty to show how he would talk to Putin, Chechen professional Mercenaries? Praying in passing at a bombed out mosque with picture?.

This is not news but an Essay, a character sketch, a meaningless description of – What? I found it nightmare like – like a bad trip – synthetic Waiting for Godot stuff, but it taught me nothing of the war – definitely nothing of the fighting, Not the young conscript’s spirit, Why they fight, the story of what this should be about – actual young men and why they are there – nothing of the poor boys conscripted and on the lines on each side getting their legs blown off…just older mercenaries acting out some character ‘Full Metal Jacket’ sketches…

I just do not get Unherd’s coverage. How about news, numbers, I just do not understand this ‘Live from the Fox-hole with the wild men of Bakmut’ chat.

If this is representative of the war it is truly twisted….

”The situation is difficult, he admits, but controlled. The Ukrainians have suffered significant losses, as have the enemy,”

But what about this? This is the news… but just in passing is thrown out there and then on to the boiled eggs and pancakes and aimless talk in the bunker with a sleeping on a door on the floor and an old guy walking and the guitar and song:

Bakhmut Bakhmut, the enemy has come leaving ruin
But we are all waiting…
for a new dawn in Ukraine.”

New Dawn? For Who? And why destroy it first? Why? What is this about? What did they think the Russians would have done if they just signed a treaty losing Donbas, making Crimea part of Russia – promising no NATO or EU – and the corrupt government run off or shot and new puppets put in their place by Putin – How is this worth all this??????? How cannot they not be discussing the alternatives? If I was a young man there I would be talking of all the issues – WHY was I to die? Why? Was this really worth it? How to take care of wife, children, parents? But to die in this nightmare – WHY? WHY does not anyone say what this is about?

The Russians did not come in shooting – just coming in to replace the Oligarchs and the Western leaning leaders – why would any young conscript be getting killed and maimed to protect Zalenski and his fellow Oligarchs? As far as I can see that is all Russia was really after – Out with the Oligarchs owned by Biden, new ones owned by Putin In – is that really worth destroying a Nation and its people over?

As far as I can tell this horror show is only about what flag flies over the Donbas, and if Ukraine joins the EU and NATO, and which corrupt and criminal Oligarchs get to rob the country. From what I read this is all Biden, all of it, and his stooge Boris – no wonder all Europe but for Poland is getting against this, wanting to pull out, suffering Buyers Remorse – Wanting PEACE, wanting cheap energy to flow, natural resources to feed their closed industry, stop borrowing money they do not have to fund this horror show, stop the refugees, death, destruction, PSD, children lost education, lost childhood, lost mental health…global famine coming… just stop this horror, PEACE NOW! they are realizing….

I would think a professional mercenary from another nation and religion and culture would not be who I was relying on for the story!

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

So I’m guessing by this rant that the Ukrainians are wrong to try and repel a violent invader? That they should simply allow the Russians to turn their nation into a vassal state?
Why then in your previous incarnations on this site have you on numerous times used the quote “Give me liberty or death” as you clearly don’t believe in it?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

At least the original article was readable and not an incoherent rant.
Try being a little more concise and engaging and people might read your comment in full.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I’d read Mr Bjorns comments over yours all day. I don’t want more concise thank you.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

And I don’t read his comments as I can’t be bothered wading through it. His comments are exclusively aimed at his own little fan club of which you’re clearly a member. Pointless in the discursive forum that makes Unherd comments so interesting.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Sometimes I am a fan, sometimes I’m not. Mr Bjorn is at least interesting and alternative. He’s made many more interesting points than you ever have, but then if you don’t read him I don’t know how you can pass judgement?
You might want to consider that for some people this isn’t about a fan club or being popular. If that’s what your here for, well, what can I say. So much you misunderstand about fringe media.
Have you got an interesting comment to make yourself? Or is that the sum of your contribution today?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Be careful Ms Emery, Mr Stewart can become rather excitable very quickly indeed.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Mr Stanhope! I’m ready for it 🙂 it’s all got very exciting down here again.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

At least you keep it concise!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago

Mr Stanhope! I’m ready for it 🙂 it’s all got very exciting down here again.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

At least you keep it concise!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Be careful Ms Emery, Mr Stewart can become rather excitable very quickly indeed.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Sometimes I am a fan, sometimes I’m not. Mr Bjorn is at least interesting and alternative. He’s made many more interesting points than you ever have, but then if you don’t read him I don’t know how you can pass judgement?
You might want to consider that for some people this isn’t about a fan club or being popular. If that’s what your here for, well, what can I say. So much you misunderstand about fringe media.
Have you got an interesting comment to make yourself? Or is that the sum of your contribution today?

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

And I don’t read his comments as I can’t be bothered wading through it. His comments are exclusively aimed at his own little fan club of which you’re clearly a member. Pointless in the discursive forum that makes Unherd comments so interesting.

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

I’d read Mr Bjorns comments over yours all day. I don’t want more concise thank you.

Hendrik Mentz
Hendrik Mentz
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Thank God for this impassioned, humane, deep, insightful, sane response, which helped me understand my unease reading this post. The fact that it’s now in negative territory according to the vote tally (-3 ???!) I believe says something/much about rampant jingoism this orchestrated war has whipped up.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Hendrik Mentz

I agree with you, some of these people will never listen to another opinion. War is great for them until they experience it. They think it is about which side you are on, good and evil, no nuance.

Carl Valentine
Carl Valentine
1 year ago
Reply to  Hendrik Mentz

I agree with you, some of these people will never listen to another opinion. War is great for them until they experience it. They think it is about which side you are on, good and evil, no nuance.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Why the increasingly frequent name changes? Do you keep getting thrown off?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Almost as delusional as Putin.
And after Putin come Russia’s REAL Psychotics.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

No orcs today? No insults for both the Ukrainians and Russians today? You’re not really on your game are you?

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Awww, kick a person when he’s down!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  B Emery

Awww, kick a person when he’s down!

B Emery
B Emery
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

No orcs today? No insults for both the Ukrainians and Russians today? You’re not really on your game are you?

Last edited 1 year ago by B Emery
Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

So I’m guessing by this rant that the Ukrainians are wrong to try and repel a violent invader? That they should simply allow the Russians to turn their nation into a vassal state?
Why then in your previous incarnations on this site have you on numerous times used the quote “Give me liberty or death” as you clearly don’t believe in it?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

At least the original article was readable and not an incoherent rant.
Try being a little more concise and engaging and people might read your comment in full.

Hendrik Mentz
Hendrik Mentz
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Thank God for this impassioned, humane, deep, insightful, sane response, which helped me understand my unease reading this post. The fact that it’s now in negative territory according to the vote tally (-3 ???!) I believe says something/much about rampant jingoism this orchestrated war has whipped up.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Why the increasingly frequent name changes? Do you keep getting thrown off?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Elliott Bjorn

Almost as delusional as Putin.
And after Putin come Russia’s REAL Psychotics.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Elliott Bjorn
Elliott Bjorn
1 year ago

”Ivan is 34 and has been fighting since the war began in 2014. His unit is Special Forces, he says. He can’t give me details about their operations,”

Who has he been fighting? What? Why? Where? When? and How…Because that is pretty wild stuff.

Is this News? Drones dropping sex toys to shame the enemy? Meat Waves? Printed plastic sort of shuttlecocks they fill with explosive and drop from toy drones… When USA has sent $100,000,000,000 in aid, weapons, and tech-support? A $3000 drone with a grenade taking out a tank? A pistol snapped empty to show how he would talk to Putin, Chechen professional Mercenaries? Praying in passing at a bombed out mosque with picture?.

This is not news but an Essay, a character sketch, a meaningless description of – What? I found it nightmare like – like a bad trip – synthetic Waiting for Godot stuff, but it taught me nothing of the war – definitely nothing of the fighting, Not the young conscript’s spirit, Why they fight, the story of what this should be about – actual young men and why they are there – nothing of the poor boys conscripted and on the lines on each side getting their legs blown off…just older mercenaries acting out some character ‘Full Metal Jacket’ sketches…

I just do not get Unherd’s coverage. How about news, numbers, I just do not understand this ‘Live from the Fox-hole with the wild men of Bakmut’ chat.

If this is representative of the war it is truly twisted….

”The situation is difficult, he admits, but controlled. The Ukrainians have suffered significant losses, as have the enemy,”

But what about this? This is the news… but just in passing is thrown out there and then on to the boiled eggs and pancakes and aimless talk in the bunker with a sleeping on a door on the floor and an old guy walking and the guitar and song:

Bakhmut Bakhmut, the enemy has come leaving ruin
But we are all waiting…
for a new dawn in Ukraine.”

New Dawn? For Who? And why destroy it first? Why? What is this about? What did they think the Russians would have done if they just signed a treaty losing Donbas, making Crimea part of Russia – promising no NATO or EU – and the corrupt government run off or shot and new puppets put in their place by Putin – How is this worth all this??????? How cannot they not be discussing the alternatives? If I was a young man there I would be talking of all the issues – WHY was I to die? Why? Was this really worth it? How to take care of wife, children, parents? But to die in this nightmare – WHY? WHY does not anyone say what this is about?

The Russians did not come in shooting – just coming in to replace the Oligarchs and the Western leaning leaders – why would any young conscript be getting killed and maimed to protect Zalenski and his fellow Oligarchs? As far as I can see that is all Russia was really after – Out with the Oligarchs owned by Biden, new ones owned by Putin In – is that really worth destroying a Nation and its people over?

As far as I can tell this horror show is only about what flag flies over the Donbas, and if Ukraine joins the EU and NATO, and which corrupt and criminal Oligarchs get to rob the country. From what I read this is all Biden, all of it, and his stooge Boris – no wonder all Europe but for Poland is getting against this, wanting to pull out, suffering Buyers Remorse – Wanting PEACE, wanting cheap energy to flow, natural resources to feed their closed industry, stop borrowing money they do not have to fund this horror show, stop the refugees, death, destruction, PSD, children lost education, lost childhood, lost mental health…global famine coming… just stop this horror, PEACE NOW! they are realizing….

I would think a professional mercenary from another nation and religion and culture would not be who I was relying on for the story!