June 8, 2023 - 1:00pm
The destruction of the Kakhovka dam has sparked fevered speculation about the future of Ukraine’s counteroffensive against Russian invaders. Opinions differ over the degree to which the demolition of the dam favours Russia or Ukraine. Some argue it will throw Ukraine’s plans into chaos, while others point out that much of the impact of the flooding falls on Russian-held territory.
Time will tell which interpretation turns out to be true. The same can’t necessarily be said, though, for questions about the motivations behind the demolition. Russia would certainly appear the most likely culprit: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy pointed out that Russia has held the dam for more than a year and that it is “physically impossible to blow it up from the outside”.
Case closed, then? Not on the international stage. Many statements of condemnation from Ukraine’s Western backers have been notably cautious about directly blaming Russia for carrying out an intentional attack on the dam. Moscow denies all responsibility: Vladimir Putin has called the dam break a “barbaric act” perpetrated by Ukraine, while a Russian envoy to the UN characterised claims that Russia was behind the attack as part of a Western disinformation campaign that “reeks of schizophrenia and not of a latent variety”.
Each side blaming the other is a reminder of how, despite being the most documented war in history, some of the major events that have punctuated the fighting in Ukraine remain remarkably murky. The information war being waged online mirrors the fighting on the ground in its ferocity and utter lack of compromise.
This at times leads into the realms of absurdity. Asked about claims that Ukraine destroyed the dam, the US deputy ambassador to the UN Robert Wood responded with exasperation: “Come on […] why would Ukraine do this to its own territory and people, flood its land, force tens of thousands of people to flee their homes – it doesn’t make sense.”
Wood’s argument is perfectly logical. But many onlookers will remember having asked themselves similar questions about claims that Russia blew up its own Nord Stream pipelines last year — something much of the international community insisted it had done until it became public knowledge that a pro-Ukrainian group was actually the likely culprit. This week, it was reported that the Ukrainian military was planning an attack on the pipelines three months before they were sabotaged, although Zelenskyy used an interview published on Wednesday to again deny all knowledge.
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Subscribe“Such errors in Western communications have undermined faith in the wider pro-Ukraine narrative among certain sceptical demographics.” You know, unherd, ‘certain sceptical demographics’ are your audience, right?
Are you saying we are all Flat Earthers?
I’ve flown from the US to Europe, and it was flat all the way.
Perhaps you prefer Rolling Stone or the like?
I’ve flown from the US to Europe, and it was flat all the way.
Perhaps you prefer Rolling Stone or the like?
I’m surprised there are not more comparisons to the Covid response. Many of the same actors and the same goverment and news media systems that brought about the way information was provided, right-think/wrong-think, demonization of wrong-thinking people, threats, etc. The whole thing has the same stinky smell to it.
Are you saying we are all Flat Earthers?
I’m surprised there are not more comparisons to the Covid response. Many of the same actors and the same goverment and news media systems that brought about the way information was provided, right-think/wrong-think, demonization of wrong-thinking people, threats, etc. The whole thing has the same stinky smell to it.
“Such errors in Western communications have undermined faith in the wider pro-Ukraine narrative among certain sceptical demographics.” You know, unherd, ‘certain sceptical demographics’ are your audience, right?
It’s now June and we’re still waiting for the spring counter offensive. Why do we keep hearing about this?
Just to confuse the Russians!
Agreed.
These are “shaping operations.”
Kyiv attacks in multiple areas, to confuse the Russians. Only then does the main attack occur.
It looks like its started, its not going well so you won’t hear much about it in the media
Those are company sized attacks.
That’s not Ukraine’s offensive.
But Russia did destroy two “Leopard 2” combine harvesters!
They destroyed a lot more than that, it was a turkey shoot, the videos are all over twitter
The Russians are winning
Of course you are winning.
Indeed.
Those two “Leopard 2 combine harvesters” in that video show just how reliable Russian deza is .
Hi Comical Ali, it’s too soon to say.
Of course you are winning.
Indeed.
Those two “Leopard 2 combine harvesters” in that video show just how reliable Russian deza is .
Hi Comical Ali, it’s too soon to say.
They destroyed a lot more than that, it was a turkey shoot, the videos are all over twitter
The Russians are winning
Those are company sized attacks.
That’s not Ukraine’s offensive.
But Russia did destroy two “Leopard 2” combine harvesters!
You mean you can’t figure that one out?
Just to confuse the Russians!
Agreed.
These are “shaping operations.”
Kyiv attacks in multiple areas, to confuse the Russians. Only then does the main attack occur.
It looks like its started, its not going well so you won’t hear much about it in the media
You mean you can’t figure that one out?
It’s now June and we’re still waiting for the spring counter offensive. Why do we keep hearing about this?
Thanks for the best totally vacuous take on this so far.
“Cui bono” about sums it up–and shows why Russia is trying to reduce this to “Both-Sideism.”
Nothing the Ukrainians have could have blown the dam the way it was.
Not HIMARs. Not divers. Not Storm Shadows.
This was a MASSIVE explosion, caused by several hundred pounds of explosives.
A source I trust, who’s been more correct than any other:
“Something like 150+ metres of the Spillway, about half of it, is ‘broken’. It’s gone.
“But, and foremost, almost the entire Turbine Building is gone. The walls and roofs of the Turbine Building can be seen as ‘crashed INTO the fundament’. As a result, the water – indeed: the most massive breach of the dam – is spilling OVER the fundament.
“This means that hundreds of kilogram of explosives must have been used to destroy the fundament with turbines, so that the walls and the roof of the Turbine Building crashed INTO the fundament.”
https://xxtomcooperxx.substack.com/p/ukraine-war-8-june-2023-the-russian?fbclid=IwAR1NF8f22ybiEvwI5lz0EYlCfb8rIQ0sIfQYQpSgVSxe7OT0QlVb2R4FmdQ
Thanks also for not even trying to refute expert information.
It is appreciated!
As we know from the last 3 years, if it is ‘Expert Information’ it is lies.
Still wearing the mask? Still getting boosted? Still think this war is anything to do with Ukrainian freedom and democracy?
Only the Secret Knowledge of the Kabbala–and Internet Research Agecny in St P–provides the truth!
All else is the Work of Satan, Emil!
Usual cretinous whataboutery.
Never engages with actual facts.
Only the Secret Knowledge of the Kabbala–and Internet Research Agecny in St P–provides the truth!
All else is the Work of Satan, Emil!
Usual cretinous whataboutery.
Never engages with actual facts.
As we know from the last 3 years, if it is ‘Expert Information’ it is lies.
Still wearing the mask? Still getting boosted? Still think this war is anything to do with Ukrainian freedom and democracy?
So some guy says it has to be Russia – so what? People say all kinds of things, and also people do things cleverly to make them hidden or point in another direction.
I tend to watch Alexander Mercouris to get a bot of News not 100% in the pro-Ukraine agenda camp, as the MSM, and UK – USA official, and social media endorse.
Try about minute 5:30 of his youtube from yesterday where he gives the bigger story than your link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0uLkjNfmU
According to you, Ukraine has plenty firepower!
Please do some actual research and check facts. They don’t have the capabilties to do this.
Please do some actual research and check facts. They don’t have the capabilties to do this.
Thanks also for not even trying to refute expert information.
It is appreciated!
So some guy says it has to be Russia – so what? People say all kinds of things, and also people do things cleverly to make them hidden or point in another direction.
I tend to watch Alexander Mercouris to get a bot of News not 100% in the pro-Ukraine agenda camp, as the MSM, and UK – USA official, and social media endorse.
Try about minute 5:30 of his youtube from yesterday where he gives the bigger story than your link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa0uLkjNfmU
According to you, Ukraine has plenty firepower!
Thanks for the best totally vacuous take on this so far.
“Cui bono” about sums it up–and shows why Russia is trying to reduce this to “Both-Sideism.”
Nothing the Ukrainians have could have blown the dam the way it was.
Not HIMARs. Not divers. Not Storm Shadows.
This was a MASSIVE explosion, caused by several hundred pounds of explosives.
A source I trust, who’s been more correct than any other:
“Something like 150+ metres of the Spillway, about half of it, is ‘broken’. It’s gone.
“But, and foremost, almost the entire Turbine Building is gone. The walls and roofs of the Turbine Building can be seen as ‘crashed INTO the fundament’. As a result, the water – indeed: the most massive breach of the dam – is spilling OVER the fundament.
“This means that hundreds of kilogram of explosives must have been used to destroy the fundament with turbines, so that the walls and the roof of the Turbine Building crashed INTO the fundament.”
https://xxtomcooperxx.substack.com/p/ukraine-war-8-june-2023-the-russian?fbclid=IwAR1NF8f22ybiEvwI5lz0EYlCfb8rIQ0sIfQYQpSgVSxe7OT0QlVb2R4FmdQ
Really annoyed by the hysteria over this. In WW2 Britain destroyed three dams in the Ruhr Valley in the famous Dambusters raid. Even if the Russians did destroy this dam, they would simply be doing what we have done.
The difference being that Britain wanted to blow up the dam, it was a win for them
The Russians get nothing from blowing up their own dam, they could have just released the water by opening the gates, like the Nordstream they have no control now
Its seems far more lightly that it was the Ukrainians
Putin’s (and his troll’s’) problem is: the damage done could only have been because of hundreds of tonnes of explosives.
Neither divers nor HIMARs can deliver that.
No laddie – It was your side that did it. It won’t help you, of course.
There is no apparent damage externally, the dam seems to have collapsed from within and below. Only the Russian military had the access and the time (over a year) to place the explosives. Also, the flow out of the dam had been reduced enough to bring the level of the water considerably higher than its normally kept, thus increasing the impact of a breach. Again, it was the Russian military who operated all aspects of the dam. That many RF soldiers and “New Russian” civilians were washed away is neither here nor there. As we’ve seen all too often this last year, their lives were quite expendable as far as furthering Mr Putin’s ambitions are concerned.
Redacted News say the Ukrainians are keeping their Huge upper dams wide open to make the flooding effects much worse for the Russians.
Go to Rumble (the uncensored youtube) and check out ‘Redacted News’
https://rumble.com/v2smc67-nato-and-u.s.-blame-russia-for-dam-attack-putin-just-responded-redacted-wit.html
Since the flooding occurs on both sides of the river, that’s a ridiculous statement, particularly since Ukraine aims to control both banks soon.
But you already knew that.
Since the flooding occurs on both sides of the river, that’s a ridiculous statement, particularly since Ukraine aims to control both banks soon.
But you already knew that.
awaiting for approval –
So Redacted News on ‘Rumble’ (youtube uncensored)
say Ukraine is keeping its Huge reserviours upstream wide open so the flooding through the broken dam is much worse – they say Ukraine is doing all they can to harm the Russians with this flooding.
I cannot post a link as Unherd cancels me when I try
The Russians kept the dam’s reservoir full, to cause a larger flood.
A bit thick are we?
We tend not to use ad hominems on this site, tempting as it is in your case!
We tend to call a spade a spade. And rightly so.
We tend to call a spade a spade. And rightly so.
We tend not to use ad hominems on this site, tempting as it is in your case!
The Russians kept the dam’s reservoir full, to cause a larger flood.
A bit thick are we?
Redacted News say the Ukrainians are keeping their Huge upper dams wide open to make the flooding effects much worse for the Russians.
Go to Rumble (the uncensored youtube) and check out ‘Redacted News’
https://rumble.com/v2smc67-nato-and-u.s.-blame-russia-for-dam-attack-putin-just-responded-redacted-wit.html
awaiting for approval –
So Redacted News on ‘Rumble’ (youtube uncensored)
say Ukraine is keeping its Huge reserviours upstream wide open so the flooding through the broken dam is much worse – they say Ukraine is doing all they can to harm the Russians with this flooding.
I cannot post a link as Unherd cancels me when I try
But it’s not the Russians’ “own dam” is it ?
You rather gave the game away there.
Putin’s (and his troll’s’) problem is: the damage done could only have been because of hundreds of tonnes of explosives.
Neither divers nor HIMARs can deliver that.
No laddie – It was your side that did it. It won’t help you, of course.
There is no apparent damage externally, the dam seems to have collapsed from within and below. Only the Russian military had the access and the time (over a year) to place the explosives. Also, the flow out of the dam had been reduced enough to bring the level of the water considerably higher than its normally kept, thus increasing the impact of a breach. Again, it was the Russian military who operated all aspects of the dam. That many RF soldiers and “New Russian” civilians were washed away is neither here nor there. As we’ve seen all too often this last year, their lives were quite expendable as far as furthering Mr Putin’s ambitions are concerned.
But it’s not the Russians’ “own dam” is it ?
You rather gave the game away there.
Spectacularly missing the point that Britain was fighting a justified war of defence in WWII and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was an unjustified act of aggression (as was Russia’s invasion of Poland in 1939 which they coordinated with Germany).
Yet more bogus attempts to claim a false moral equivalence.
So destroying civilian infrastructure, homes and businesses and killing thousands of cilvilians in the process is not an absolute war crime, it just depends on the wider circumstances. Interesting.
Yep, the attacks into Belgorod are totally justified.
Yep, the attacks into Belgorod are totally justified.
Didnt Britain declare war on Germany? To defend Poland, but not declaring war on the SU who, as you say, also attacked Poland ( and the Baltic States).
So destroying civilian infrastructure, homes and businesses and killing thousands of cilvilians in the process is not an absolute war crime, it just depends on the wider circumstances. Interesting.
Didnt Britain declare war on Germany? To defend Poland, but not declaring war on the SU who, as you say, also attacked Poland ( and the Baltic States).
The difference being that Britain wanted to blow up the dam, it was a win for them
The Russians get nothing from blowing up their own dam, they could have just released the water by opening the gates, like the Nordstream they have no control now
Its seems far more lightly that it was the Ukrainians
Spectacularly missing the point that Britain was fighting a justified war of defence in WWII and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was an unjustified act of aggression (as was Russia’s invasion of Poland in 1939 which they coordinated with Germany).
Yet more bogus attempts to claim a false moral equivalence.
Really annoyed by the hysteria over this. In WW2 Britain destroyed three dams in the Ruhr Valley in the famous Dambusters raid. Even if the Russians did destroy this dam, they would simply be doing what we have done.
I’ve come hot-footed straight from the article claiming that Putin is becoming more likely to use tactical nuclear weapons. Having realised, over the course of the last two days, just how destructive the sabotage of the dam is, and how it impacts, and will continue to impact, the whole infrastructure and agrarian economy of Ukraine for years to come, I believe this act was a half-measure, a weapon of mass destruction but not nuclear (so nothing to see here). I see an unfortunate accident with the nuclear power plant as the next step. If Russia is forced to withdraw, if the “special operation” is seen to fail, then look forward to yet more wanton destruction. Mr Putin wouldn’t be the first Russian to enact a scorched earth policy.
The real question is: will Putin’s base accept the results of the war, when it just involves wanton destruction of Ukraine, without any territorial gains for Russia?
The Russian character (for most) is about making everyone else worse off than one’s self. No Real Russian thinks they can improve their own lot. So things like flooding innocent people who speak Russian might still be seen as a “win.”
The problem is: Russia has also lost half a trillion in bank accounts, now frozen in western banks. That will go to repair things like the flooding.
Just where things will lead once Crimea falls is thus a very open question.
Having been watching the 1420 YouTube channel for several months, it seems to me there’s nothing that the ordinary Russian in the street can’t construe as a win for the motherland. Their faith in Mr Putin is touching, at least among the older generation. Among the young a much higher number of respondents either can’t or won’t say what they feel about the situation. The overall impression is that Russians, as a whole, are shockingly uninformed, and many purport to have no knowledge of politics and no wish to be involved or even better informed. Probably this stance of keeping one’s head below the parapet is almost in their DNA, having been suppressed serfs for so long.
Russians are kept in line by the certain knowledge that any one of their fellows would cheat and betray them. Without rule of law, that’s inevitable.
So they always hope that a single “boss” (vozhd) will somehow keep their enemies in line. They willingly attach themselves to people like that, because their only other choice is chaos.
Putin is just their latest forlorn hope.
Russians are kept in line by the certain knowledge that any one of their fellows would cheat and betray them. Without rule of law, that’s inevitable.
So they always hope that a single “boss” (vozhd) will somehow keep their enemies in line. They willingly attach themselves to people like that, because their only other choice is chaos.
Putin is just their latest forlorn hope.
Having been watching the 1420 YouTube channel for several months, it seems to me there’s nothing that the ordinary Russian in the street can’t construe as a win for the motherland. Their faith in Mr Putin is touching, at least among the older generation. Among the young a much higher number of respondents either can’t or won’t say what they feel about the situation. The overall impression is that Russians, as a whole, are shockingly uninformed, and many purport to have no knowledge of politics and no wish to be involved or even better informed. Probably this stance of keeping one’s head below the parapet is almost in their DNA, having been suppressed serfs for so long.
The real question is: will Putin’s base accept the results of the war, when it just involves wanton destruction of Ukraine, without any territorial gains for Russia?
The Russian character (for most) is about making everyone else worse off than one’s self. No Real Russian thinks they can improve their own lot. So things like flooding innocent people who speak Russian might still be seen as a “win.”
The problem is: Russia has also lost half a trillion in bank accounts, now frozen in western banks. That will go to repair things like the flooding.
Just where things will lead once Crimea falls is thus a very open question.
I’ve come hot-footed straight from the article claiming that Putin is becoming more likely to use tactical nuclear weapons. Having realised, over the course of the last two days, just how destructive the sabotage of the dam is, and how it impacts, and will continue to impact, the whole infrastructure and agrarian economy of Ukraine for years to come, I believe this act was a half-measure, a weapon of mass destruction but not nuclear (so nothing to see here). I see an unfortunate accident with the nuclear power plant as the next step. If Russia is forced to withdraw, if the “special operation” is seen to fail, then look forward to yet more wanton destruction. Mr Putin wouldn’t be the first Russian to enact a scorched earth policy.
In any war, many normally-evil actions are celebrated as being heroic and good. A relevant example is the 1943 Dam Busters RAF raid on dams in the Ruhr valley.
Yes, whether an action is good, bad or morally neutral does tend to depend on the context.
Yes, whether an action is good, bad or morally neutral does tend to depend on the context.
In any war, many normally-evil actions are celebrated as being heroic and good. A relevant example is the 1943 Dam Busters RAF raid on dams in the Ruhr valley.
Technically impossible for the Ukrainians to have done it. All you need to know.
Technically impossible for the Ukrainians to have done it. All you need to know.