January 4, 2024 - 12:00pm
No one wants to be associated with Jeffrey Epstein these days. For many years, famous men were happy to attend his parties, accept flights on his private plane and visit his luxurious island. Their names appear in the first tranche of documents released overnight by a New York court, confirming just how well-connected Epstein was before his disgrace. Few of them, however, noticed anything amiss — or if they did, they kept their misgivings to themselves.
Bill Clinton’s spokesman says the former president knew nothing about the financier’s crimes and cut ties with him more than a decade ago. Donald Trump, who was often photographed with Epstein in the 1990s, says he was “not a fan” and distanced himself years ago. Other former associates insist they were entirely unaware of the sex trafficking operation that resulted in the conviction of his former girlfriend, Ghislaine Maxwell, two years ago.
Maxwell’s behaviour, which involved identifying and grooming teenage girls for Epstein, is indefensible. Her trial attracted huge publicity, raising questions about how a woman frequently described as a “socialite” could have ended up as her ex-partner’s pimp. But the focus on Maxwell served to deflect attention away from equally pressing questions, such as whether the couple benefited from a culture of silence.
Epstein was often surrounded by teenage girls who flew with him on his private plane, something that hardly counts as normal behaviour. During Maxwell’s trial, Epstein’s former housekeeper described having to pick up and wash sex toys at his mansion in Palm Beach. The newly-released documents confirm that Epstein and Maxwell inhabited a highly sexualised atmosphere, which isn’t in itself new. But the sheer volume of the material, and the detailed versions of allegations already in the public domain, is startling.
So is the previously unheard claim that one of Epstein’s guests, the magician David Copperfield, saw enough to raise his suspicions. According to one of Epstein’s victims, Johanna Sjoberg, Copperfield was at a dinner party at the financier’s house where another young girl was present. He asked Sjoberg “if I was aware that girls were being paid to find other girls”. There is no suggestion that the magician was involved in any wrongdoing but it would be surprising, to say the least, if he was the only one of Epstein’s associates who ever wondered about the set-up.
Indeed, Sjoberg’s testimony paints a picture of so licentious an atmosphere at Epstein’s house in Manhattan that no one blinked when Prince Andrew allegedly put his hand on her breast. The Prince has always denied the claim that another young woman, Virginia Giuffre, was forced to have sex with him but settled a civil case brought by her two years ago. The new documents go a great deal further, claiming that a girl identified only as Jane Doe 3 was told to have sex with Andrew “in an orgy with numerous other under-aged girls” on Epstein’s private island. She was allegedly told by Epstein to “give the Prince whatever he demanded”.
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SubscribeI propose that for the sake of future discussions on UnHerd, that we establish Epstein’s and Maxwell’s behaviors as the minimal baseline for morally wrong behaviors.
An obvious point, I’m sure. And still, putting one’s stake in the ground when discussing right and wrong or good and bad is, I think, helpful for establishing a moral compass.
Before we light our torches and raise our pitchforks, let’s consider the possibility that at least some of the people who networked with Epstein really didn’t know (or didn’t make it their business to know) what his sexual predilections were.
Is it such a crime to politely walk your cocktail and canapé into the other room if you catch sight of something that doesn’t look quite right, happening in the corner of a party full of rich and powerful people?
True GS, some didn’t know, but if you visited his island multiple times. I’d bet that type of person knew
How many hard drives of video does Mossad have of these people up to no good. Disgusting
That’s an important distinction: the people who visited the island vs. the people photographed with Epstein at high society events on the mainland. The two groups are not the same.
Let’s also consider the possibility that some of these women exercised their agency and honestly believed that recruiting other women to perform sexual favors on a billionaire is ok. Although the behavior of Epstein is beyond appalling, I have never read an example where any of these innocent young women were held against their free will during the time they were “performing”. Should all “differently aged” women now get protection from older billionaires? And which is more patriarchal?
There is a lot of complexity in this. Drawing up short-form answers does little to truly relate and discuss the essence of what, who, how and why to what is a potential serious problem.
Too much is said through the eyes of our own personal experience and convictions. Not helpful. Too much of the current gender wars is a defensive measure and not true dialogue.
We need to take to personal out of it all and look only at the point or case in discussion.
I ask, who is suppose to be the more responsible, lets say a 14 year old girl or a 40 something year old man? Only talking in hypotheses with Geoffrey Epstein. Do we even have the story of the 14 yer old (or even 16 year old). I think we have a sense of Geoffrey’s story at that point in time.
Where do we draw the line?
What is Ok, what is not OK? What if anything can someone do if something comes to light without loosing their job? As we know can happen in our current climate which we rightly say is nuts.
Even I knew that the airplane was referred to as Lolita Express so anyone who has evener set foot on it must have also known it, as well as what it signified.
I think the timing matters here. At some point, yes, this is true. But not, for example, when RFK Jr flew on it.
It is my sincere hope that any wrongdoing connected to this case is uncovered and the perpetrators, whoever they are, face the full consequences.
It is also my sincere hope that innocent people are not deemed guilty by association. Poor judgement of character is not a crime. Acting as if it is will not bring any greater measure of justice to Epstein’s victims.
Sure, but the fact is that whole lot of people involved that were guilty are going to use the “poor judge of character” argument, claim they knew nothing and did nothing but were just talking to a wealthy and influential guy about X,Y or Z.
And…they will get away with it.
All right. Case in point: George Lucas. He is mentioned in the Epstein papers, voluminous as they are, exactly once. There is no mention of anything even remotely suspicious. And yet, because there is a vicious power struggle on at Disney, which owns Lucasfilm, Lucasfilm employees have been heard drafting plans for his exclusion (which is nonsense, because he is no longer involved with the company in any way) and public defaming. Incidentally, I am of the opinion that an investigation of the Disney conglomerate, especially its TV series production, would lead to some actual surprises. But if you hear George Lucas being smeared in the next few months, you may be sure that smears is all that they are.
Seems Eddie has….
Now that the names of powerful men who hung out with Epstein are being released, I expect fear of lawsuits to continue protecting their anonymity. Powerful men have powerful lawyers.
This is what Chat GPT has to say about Epstein’s island, so it seems to me that these goings on must have been obvious to many a great and the good of this world: “Jeffrey Epstein’s private island, known as Little Saint James, located in the U.S. Virgin Islands, has gained notoriety due to its connection with Epstein, a convicted sex offender. The island was allegedly the site of widespread sexual abuse of underage girls. Epstein owned the island from 1998 until his death in 2019, and it was during this time that he reportedly orchestrated a network of abuse, preying on young women and underage girls.
The island was described as a luxurious retreat, with a temple-like mansion, a mosaic-tiled pool, and a staff that catered to Epstein’s needs. However, beneath its surface, it was a place of manipulation, exploitation, and abuse. Teenage girls were flown in on private jets, and the island had a constant presence of young women, often in scant attire. Epstein’s staff, sworn to secrecy, were instructed to stay out of his sight and were forbidden from entering certain areas of the main manor.
High-profile visitors, including politicians, celebrities, and academics, visited the island, which added a layer of legitimacy to Epstein’s dubious activities. Names like Bill Clinton, Prince Andrew, and Kevin Spacey were linked to the island, raising questions about their involvement and knowledge of Epstein’s activities.
The island also served as a venue for hosting guests, reportedly including figures like theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking, comedian Chris Tucker, actor Kevin Spacey, and others. Guests would arrive on Epstein’s private jets and be shuttled to the island on his helicopters. The island was known for its high-end hospitality, akin to a five-star hotel where guests weren’t charged.
Locals on St Thomas, the nearest island, had suspicions about Epstein’s activities, referring to his private jets as “the Lolita Express”. Security measures were tight on the island, with guards patrolling the water’s edge to ensure privacy.
After Epstein’s death in 2019, Little St. James was sold in 2023, but its dark legacy continues to be a reminder of the unchecked power and privilege that allowed such abuse to flourish.
For a more detailed understanding of what transpired on Jeffrey Epstein’s island, please refer to the comprehensive reports from Celebily and The Independent.”
I am bewildered by the inclusion of Kevin Spacey. I didn’t think he had any interest in teenage girls.
AC-DC.
Market forces: you don’t get a supplier unless there is demand. I hope this affair leads to the tear down of the ‘entitled’ elite, a warning to those who feel they are above the law, with every one of his clients being publicly shamed, having their assets seized and donated to safeguarding projects. I would pray to see the same go to a specially made gaol where they can live as the victims of the terror they have perpetrated.
I recall Paul Joseph Watson saying six years ago there was a world-wide pedophile ring of high status business and political figures, and he was pooh-poohed as a conspiracy moonbat. Weird how all those theories turn out to be facts
Was thinking exactly the same.
Many years ago I read a book called TRANCE Formation of America which I dismissed as a conspiracy theory – I’m less sure of that now.
Yep – it’s quite astonishing. The same people at bbc, liberals, Davos, etc ignored Muslim sex trafficking in Rotherham, are trying to ban the AFD in Germany, impose digital currencies, hand over powers to WHO, restrict free press in Canada, draconian ‘hate speech ‘ laws in Ireland ….Paul Joseph Watson is a saint by comparison
Is this the one based in the (non-existent) basement of a DC pizza joint?
haha… actually there is some oddness of the one shot fired at that pizza joint and it took out the camera storage by sheer chance – but Pizza is weird in today’s world. Here is ‘Salty Cracker’ showing pictures of Pizza on Etsy for $9000 – so what does it mean? So watch a few minutes – so why is a picture of slice of pizza $9000 – watch from minute 55 – the bit on Tom Hanks is weird…. anyway what is going on is pretty weird in the world today. The name of this show is ‘Biden Eats Kids REeEEEEeeee’ (minute 55 for Pizza madness – and then a few minutes later $20,000 pictures of Pizza -, so what does it all mean?) Does a $20,000 picture of a pizza mean anything? who knows…
At 1:02 time he explains the deal – gotta love a good conspiracy, and anything weird on Pizza is worth the time, haha…. then minutes later $20,000 picture of Pizza…
https://rumble.com/v415301-biden-eats-kids-reeeeee-stream-12-13-23.html
Well, if Salty Cracker says it then I guess all doubt is removed!!!
Q, Pizzagate, and WWG1WGA… had to be stopped
By the way Elon Musk, that great user of cutting edge emojis (I recall him replying to the Finance man. Peter Schiff’s comment on Tesla with the eggplant emoji before it was really understood, haha But anyway, he uses a slice of Pizza to mean ‘Minor Attracted Person’ so maybe where there is smoke and all that, as he would know.
The ‘Salty Cracker’ calls all the rich and powerful ‘Kid Fu**ing Lizard People” and I wonder if he is on target, haha…
And John Lydon told everyone about Jimmy Savill in 1978 and was banned by the nonce-enabling BBC for his troubles. The court jester sometimes should actually be taken seriously.
Trump was “often photographed with Epstein” at various cocktail party-type events with big crowds. Clinton was a frequent flier on the Lolita Express and photographed at least once being given a massage by a young lady. Let’s not act as if these are parallel events. And besides those two, and Andrew, that we know so little about who else was involved and to what extent is a crime unto itself.
If it was later discovered that your uncle was a pedophile, would the pictures of you, your uncle and other family members at your graduation implicate you?
Trump has a history of, at the very least, aggressive sexual behaviour, at least according to a New York jury and his own bravado. He hung out with Epstein frequently.
Draw your own conclusions…
My conclusion is that he might indeed be guilty of sexual impropriety with anyone, but there isn’t the slightest evidence of it in this case. Which is why we have things like courts and due process, rather than relying on internet trolls.
Trump doesn’t seem to care too much for courts or due process. Keeps trying to say they don’t apply to him.
He’s wrong on that like he is on everything else….
So he is in your opinion probably guilty of impropriety on Epstein’s Island, AND he doesn’t respect the courts? Gad!
I think you, and Trump, will find that the courts aren’t much bothered by whether he respects them or not when he gets found guilty on the many criminal charges he faces!
I’m no fan of Trump but I doubt he would find school girls his fetish. He seems a bit too competitive for that market. Supermodels, with expensive tastes, accomplishments.
Of course I’m only speculating… as you are.
No self respecting super model would ever have gone with in a mile of Trump.
Melania was a nobody.
And out of the long list of Epstein guests you can bet only Donald Trump will attract persistent scrutiny by the media.
Trump cut his association in the 90’s … I think you will find it will be Prince Andrew, despite throwing £12 million pounds to stay out of court
There are one set of rules for the elite, the powerful, the famous and the wealthy and one for everyone else.
Had this been a ring of local lawyers, plumbers, small business owners, the names would have been out years ago and almost all of them would be in prison for one thing or another.
That is just the legal side.
What is probably even more disturbing is the idea that these people really have no boundaries and that many, if not most, will never even pay a social price for this.
“The culture of impunity” runs deep both within the criminal justice system as well within MSM. Senator Blackburn is being stymied by Senator Schumer and others in issuing a subpoena for all Epstein flight logs, so that they are all released. And corporate media will not shine a light on the issue or the obstruction. The FBI has all the flight logs, the surveillance video at Epstein’s residences, and no action is taken. The corruption sadly runs deep, very deep.
The Epstein ‘case’ has many more victims lined up … it will amount to more than a few days embarrassment.