July 12, 2023 - 3:20pm
The US decision to send cluster bombs to aid Ukraine in its war effort, along with the suggestion that more Western countries may follow suit, has provoked condemnation in some corners but has elsewhere been hailed as an accelerant for victory against Vladimir Putin’s forces. The recent coverage has prompted reminders of the risks the munitions pose to innocent civilians long after battles have been fought.
Joining UnHerd to talk about why so few voices in public life and the media have spoken out against the shipment of cluster bombs, and about the recession of anti-war sentiment more widely, is the academic and writer Ashok Swain. A professor of peace and conflict research at Uppsala University in Sweden, he is one of the world’s leading experts on conflict resolution. His nation of residence is now set to join Nato, and he sat down with Freddie Sayers to unpick how Sweden’s proposed membership goes against its history of neutrality.
“Sweden has remained peaceful for 200 years,” Swain said, “and has kept its territorial integrity without being part of any military alliance.” Despite cooperation with the Allied powers, Sweden was nominally neutral during the Second World War. Its decision to join Nato now, Swain claimed, is “sad” because “it’s an open country, it has a free press, and was at the forefront” of foreign opposition to the Vietnam War in the 1960s and 1970s. “You expect these kinds of debates [about the risks of joining military alliances] to come in this country, but they never came in,” he argued.
According to Swain, “any opinion which is critical of the mainstream or dominant official stance is seen as siding with the dictator, or siding with your enemy.” This applies to Sweden’s discarded neutrality as much as it does to the Ukraine war. “Putin is, in this case, the aggressor,” Swain said. “There is no doubt about that […] But can you address this issue by spending trillions of dollars just increasing your military? Has militarisation stopped the war in the past? How do you then come to the conclusion that it will stop the war in the future?”
The proposed delivery of cluster bombs from the US is “sad, but not unexpected,” he suggested. “Cluster bombs mostly kill civilians after the war is over […] 40-50% of them are children.” Considering this long-term damage, and bearing in mind that Putin was last year criticised for using the same explosives during the war, Swain asked, “Do you think anyone who wants really good things for Ukraine will want to put those kinds of weapons on Ukrainian land, which will kill generations of Ukrainians when the time comes?” He went on: “if Putin’s use of cluster bombs was considered a crime against humanity, how on earth can we supply cluster bombs?”
The academic implored viewers to “look at what is happening in Afghanistan: in the 20 years of US involvement, $2.2 trillion has been spent. How much money has the US given to Afghanistan as development aid in that time? $38 billion. So, who has taken this money? It’s the military contractors. The military establishment has taken that money.”
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeCluster bombs used to be bad, but now they’re only bad when certain people say they’re bad. That’s your answer right in that. You’ve got basically 2 types of people in the world now. Those who think and act for themselves, and those who repeat what they’ve been told and follow. These people who we have in these leadership positions are ultimately susceptible to the same things. If you want to call that a decline, a lack of character and integrity you wouldn’t be wrong.
Here’s a question for you. How did the most corrupt, stumbling, bumbling old man and an inarticulate and unskilled woman get elected to President and Vice President of the largest and most powerful country in the world, and on top of that with the most votes in history? Even more than Obama. This guy couldn’t fill a high school basketball court room when he gave his sleepy campaign speeches, but somehow, he got more votes than any presidential candidate in history?
I have one more. How do these leaders get elected and put in office over these nations where they express views and hold policy positions so contrary to the will of the people in the nations? This is a trend all over the world from Chile, to Tiawan, to Czech Republic where the elected officials hold positions that are so different from the majority of the population?
Answer those things and you’ll have the answers to a lot of things in the world.
The Dems won because they know how to win elections. The Republicans lost because they suck at elections. It’s fine to crusade against things like ballot stuffing, but you damn well better be prepared to beat them at their own game. Republicans are happy to take the moral high ground, rather than win elections. And here’s a thought, dump the sociopathic narcissist whose popularity is capped by a large percentage of independents who will never vote for him.
And the tide is turning in Europe. The Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain and others are voting out the incoherent, incompetent ruling elite that have created havoc in their countries. There’s still a few holdouts, like Britain and Canada, where voters are stuck with multiple parties spewing the same old garbage. But the tide is turning.
But you can’t vote out the EU. So what is the point in changing the government in Holland, Germany , Italy and Spain?
But you can’t vote out the EU. So what is the point in changing the government in Holland, Germany , Italy and Spain?
How about $$ money? Whoever gets the most campaign contributions to saturate the media with their propaganda, throw a few crumbs to the common people and stoke the fires of “divide and conquer” will win the race. Agencies of the billionaires like the Soros Group, Blackstone, Thiel Capital, Susquehanna, Elliot Management, Google, Bloomberg, Microsoft, Adelman, Meta, Apple, etc al, all promote the political desires of the men who own them. As so many have said, “We have the best government money can buy.”
The Dems won because they know how to win elections. The Republicans lost because they suck at elections. It’s fine to crusade against things like ballot stuffing, but you damn well better be prepared to beat them at their own game. Republicans are happy to take the moral high ground, rather than win elections. And here’s a thought, dump the sociopathic narcissist whose popularity is capped by a large percentage of independents who will never vote for him.
And the tide is turning in Europe. The Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain and others are voting out the incoherent, incompetent ruling elite that have created havoc in their countries. There’s still a few holdouts, like Britain and Canada, where voters are stuck with multiple parties spewing the same old garbage. But the tide is turning.
How about $$ money? Whoever gets the most campaign contributions to saturate the media with their propaganda, throw a few crumbs to the common people and stoke the fires of “divide and conquer” will win the race. Agencies of the billionaires like the Soros Group, Blackstone, Thiel Capital, Susquehanna, Elliot Management, Google, Bloomberg, Microsoft, Adelman, Meta, Apple, etc al, all promote the political desires of the men who own them. As so many have said, “We have the best government money can buy.”
Cluster bombs used to be bad, but now they’re only bad when certain people say they’re bad. That’s your answer right in that. You’ve got basically 2 types of people in the world now. Those who think and act for themselves, and those who repeat what they’ve been told and follow. These people who we have in these leadership positions are ultimately susceptible to the same things. If you want to call that a decline, a lack of character and integrity you wouldn’t be wrong.
Here’s a question for you. How did the most corrupt, stumbling, bumbling old man and an inarticulate and unskilled woman get elected to President and Vice President of the largest and most powerful country in the world, and on top of that with the most votes in history? Even more than Obama. This guy couldn’t fill a high school basketball court room when he gave his sleepy campaign speeches, but somehow, he got more votes than any presidential candidate in history?
I have one more. How do these leaders get elected and put in office over these nations where they express views and hold policy positions so contrary to the will of the people in the nations? This is a trend all over the world from Chile, to Tiawan, to Czech Republic where the elected officials hold positions that are so different from the majority of the population?
Answer those things and you’ll have the answers to a lot of things in the world.
As usual, Unherd continues its heterodox coverage, which I appreciate immensely.
Thank you for this very meaningful and necessary interview. The anti-war movement in the U.S. has been shattered; especially those on the anti-war Left. We are still out there, but are variously tagged “far-right,” “Putin-lovers” and “racist” among many other ad-hominems thrown our way. Much like the hatred toward dissenting voices during Covid on the left (I was one)–we have been cast aside, thrown away, censored, despised. All the people who we thought would be moderate voices have caved to the warmongers; those voices in The Squad, even people like Barbara Lee are ALL IN on the Ukraine madness. It has, to put it very mildly, been the most disillusioning three + years of this one time Bernie supporter’s life.
I think there are many things at play, some of the having to do with the Biden administration’s gratuitous bullying of dissenters, which I believe happened to some in the “progressive” caucus who raised a voice about the sanity of our interventions in Ukraine. Our Undead President has proven to be just as much of a bully as Trump, but many who questioned his early candidacy always knew him to be a bully and a warmonger. Further, I believe that those on the American political Left who are now seemingly the worst of the worst of the warmongers have bought into a leftism that is of a synthetic variety; woke, shallow, corporate, fake, immersed in the worst kinds of identity politics, uninterested in even attempting economic reform.
This is the Biden brand–he’s a bully and also a liar, which we also always knew he was. He is not “pro-union” and never really has been. I’m sure he’ll break the Teamsters strike when it comes to pass, just like he did with the railroads. Really committed leftists have mostly been cast aside, and remarkably we’ve found succor and in some cases refuges with the populist right. I think a broad coalition of populists, who viciously oppose this corporate/state/military-industrial fusion, is developing, to some extent under the candidacy of RFK Jr. and also Cornel West.
Finally, most Americans don’t even KNOW war anymore. One sure way to stop us being the world’s policeman is if there is once again a draft.
All the upper middle class and rich, white, woke Gen Zs and Millennials, many of whom I work with and who are not the best in both intellect nor physical presence, would be hard pressed to make it through a day of basic training. So of course now our wars continue to be fought by the working class and the disenfranchised rural folks in America–one of the reasons Trump was elected. They know the futility of these “liberal interventions.” They may not be pacifists, or even anti-war, but those who elected Trump in these rural and working class areas probably had a cousin, a brother, a sister, who had half their brains blown out by an IED and is in long-term care somewhere, or isn’t even alive anymore. Trump, although I actually despise him, was right about the futility of liberal interventionism, and he knew it played to this crowd just right. These wars are fought for and by the elites, as they always have been, who have profited handsomely from their bolstered stocks in Raytheon and General Dynamics.
The suited corpse that is Biden, one must remember, is just a shell and mouthpiece of the neocons and Iraq-War has-beens like Blinken, who somehow got a second chance because one of the most warlike Democrats of the 20th century was elected in 2020.
That the progressive caucus of the Democratic Party, with whom I was once somewhat aligned, are now the water-carriers for this corrupt and amoral section of our body politic gives me no end of grief. There is no longer a bulwark for this madness in the Democratic Party. God help us all.
Wow!! Excellent, heartfelt comment. I nearly choked on my coffee when you mentioned conscription. The pro-war commentariat would jump off the bandwagon yesterday if they were suddenly exposed to war.
To be honest, I have mixed mixed feelings about Ukraine. It was invaded by an authoritarian bully and I support their cause, but the longer this draws on, the stinkier and more foul it gets,
Most of the ukraine is peaceful and life is going on normally,watch you tube Pavlo from Ukraine with his partner the delectable Luba to see how our minds are being messed with. Down at the south edge of the territory that happens to be the industrial area the people chose to secede and belong in Russia so the USA did a regime change and put a dirty Yid as joke “President”. It’s not how we are being told. And I dont care anyway. I don’t like ukranians ,+ I don’t have to.
Most of the ukraine is peaceful and life is going on normally,watch you tube Pavlo from Ukraine with his partner the delectable Luba to see how our minds are being messed with. Down at the south edge of the territory that happens to be the industrial area the people chose to secede and belong in Russia so the USA did a regime change and put a dirty Yid as joke “President”. It’s not how we are being told. And I dont care anyway. I don’t like ukranians ,+ I don’t have to.
Absolutely bang on. Completely agree.
Also good point about Unherd’s heterodox coverage. There’s people on here complaining about contributions from people who are seen as ‘belonging in the Guardian’ etc., but the whole idea is hopefully to get access to a variety of viewpoints.
You are on the left, you sowed it and we all reap it
Brother, I may still be on the economic left or at least an economic populist, but I could very well be your ally if you are anti-war and acts of “liberal-interventionism.”
You could be but have to be but you have to acknowledge your culpability in all this otherwise what is going to change.
You released the handbrake at the top of the hill and deplore the carnage at the bottom.
You could be but have to be but you have to acknowledge your culpability in all this otherwise what is going to change.
You released the handbrake at the top of the hill and deplore the carnage at the bottom.
Brother, I may still be on the economic left or at least an economic populist, but I could very well be your ally if you are anti-war and acts of “liberal-interventionism.”
Undead and a bully. That’s my opinion too.
And now Biden, the Credit card Senator, is bringing aboard one of the most corrupt and sadistic war criminals, Elliot Abrams.
Wow!! Excellent, heartfelt comment. I nearly choked on my coffee when you mentioned conscription. The pro-war commentariat would jump off the bandwagon yesterday if they were suddenly exposed to war.
To be honest, I have mixed mixed feelings about Ukraine. It was invaded by an authoritarian bully and I support their cause, but the longer this draws on, the stinkier and more foul it gets,
Absolutely bang on. Completely agree.
Also good point about Unherd’s heterodox coverage. There’s people on here complaining about contributions from people who are seen as ‘belonging in the Guardian’ etc., but the whole idea is hopefully to get access to a variety of viewpoints.
You are on the left, you sowed it and we all reap it
Undead and a bully. That’s my opinion too.
And now Biden, the Credit card Senator, is bringing aboard one of the most corrupt and sadistic war criminals, Elliot Abrams.
As usual, Unherd continues its heterodox coverage, which I appreciate immensely.
Thank you for this very meaningful and necessary interview. The anti-war movement in the U.S. has been shattered; especially those on the anti-war Left. We are still out there, but are variously tagged “far-right,” “Putin-lovers” and “racist” among many other ad-hominems thrown our way. Much like the hatred toward dissenting voices during Covid on the left (I was one)–we have been cast aside, thrown away, censored, despised. All the people who we thought would be moderate voices have caved to the warmongers; those voices in The Squad, even people like Barbara Lee are ALL IN on the Ukraine madness. It has, to put it very mildly, been the most disillusioning three + years of this one time Bernie supporter’s life.
I think there are many things at play, some of the having to do with the Biden administration’s gratuitous bullying of dissenters, which I believe happened to some in the “progressive” caucus who raised a voice about the sanity of our interventions in Ukraine. Our Undead President has proven to be just as much of a bully as Trump, but many who questioned his early candidacy always knew him to be a bully and a warmonger. Further, I believe that those on the American political Left who are now seemingly the worst of the worst of the warmongers have bought into a leftism that is of a synthetic variety; woke, shallow, corporate, fake, immersed in the worst kinds of identity politics, uninterested in even attempting economic reform.
This is the Biden brand–he’s a bully and also a liar, which we also always knew he was. He is not “pro-union” and never really has been. I’m sure he’ll break the Teamsters strike when it comes to pass, just like he did with the railroads. Really committed leftists have mostly been cast aside, and remarkably we’ve found succor and in some cases refuges with the populist right. I think a broad coalition of populists, who viciously oppose this corporate/state/military-industrial fusion, is developing, to some extent under the candidacy of RFK Jr. and also Cornel West.
Finally, most Americans don’t even KNOW war anymore. One sure way to stop us being the world’s policeman is if there is once again a draft.
All the upper middle class and rich, white, woke Gen Zs and Millennials, many of whom I work with and who are not the best in both intellect nor physical presence, would be hard pressed to make it through a day of basic training. So of course now our wars continue to be fought by the working class and the disenfranchised rural folks in America–one of the reasons Trump was elected. They know the futility of these “liberal interventions.” They may not be pacifists, or even anti-war, but those who elected Trump in these rural and working class areas probably had a cousin, a brother, a sister, who had half their brains blown out by an IED and is in long-term care somewhere, or isn’t even alive anymore. Trump, although I actually despise him, was right about the futility of liberal interventionism, and he knew it played to this crowd just right. These wars are fought for and by the elites, as they always have been, who have profited handsomely from their bolstered stocks in Raytheon and General Dynamics.
The suited corpse that is Biden, one must remember, is just a shell and mouthpiece of the neocons and Iraq-War has-beens like Blinken, who somehow got a second chance because one of the most warlike Democrats of the 20th century was elected in 2020.
That the progressive caucus of the Democratic Party, with whom I was once somewhat aligned, are now the water-carriers for this corrupt and amoral section of our body politic gives me no end of grief. There is no longer a bulwark for this madness in the Democratic Party. God help us all.
“it’s an open country, it has a free press”
So you can openly come out and give a split of rapes and serious crimes by ethnic origins and religion, or openly condemn islamic immigrants for their behaviour?
Or free as in “neutral”, where Sweden remained the only country in Europe that kept supplying Germany till the bitter end in WW2.
I saw it on tv,they sold ball bearings to both sides all through the war. Sounds trivial and comic but seems the ball bearings were vital to keeping the tanks running and other military equipment. Maybe that was a survival strategy of the Swedes. If they had said ,hey no more ball bearings we demand Peace,would they have stopped the conflict or would they have got invaded by Hitler on one side,by USA on the other side and lost their national integrity and had to manufacture the ball bearings anyway. It’s a What If.
I saw it on tv,they sold ball bearings to both sides all through the war. Sounds trivial and comic but seems the ball bearings were vital to keeping the tanks running and other military equipment. Maybe that was a survival strategy of the Swedes. If they had said ,hey no more ball bearings we demand Peace,would they have stopped the conflict or would they have got invaded by Hitler on one side,by USA on the other side and lost their national integrity and had to manufacture the ball bearings anyway. It’s a What If.
“it’s an open country, it has a free press”
So you can openly come out and give a split of rapes and serious crimes by ethnic origins and religion, or openly condemn islamic immigrants for their behaviour?
Or free as in “neutral”, where Sweden remained the only country in Europe that kept supplying Germany till the bitter end in WW2.
He says Putin is obviously the aggressor. Well it is a poor essay that relies on opinion as fact.
The fact is this conflict has been brewing for decades especially since Putin upended western Post cold war plans to make Russia a vassal and extract its resources for pennies like western postcolonialism has done since they had to give up outright slavery of weaker nations.
The conflict here is just a continuation of the east west battle for supremacy. China is as much a target as Russia because the west is as Rome was to Carthage. Its crime is just that it exists as a rival or potential rival. It is a Kronos complex to devour the young before any can unseat the king.
The Great Game is afoot still and coming to its denouement and Ukraine is just the one plucked out to be the star for this moment of western lies and deception based on false villainy and heroism which soon will be exposed after the war.
Promises were made to Gorbachev over expansion to Putin over Minsk to Putin again over the peace agreement ready to go whilst his forces were stopped on their way to Kiev waiting to go forward or back. Promises never meant as we found out by admissions by Merkel among others.
So the war is a final settling of things and it is also about Russia’s wealth
its oil its gas its weapons it can give to Iran that unsettles the neocon lobby.
The Great Game of Brzinski the project for a new American century. This is about empire this is not about Hollywood villains typecast played always by Chinese and Russians. This is about western financial capitalism which allows the west to be rich by devices such as the dollar and not the quality of what they produce. Allowing consumerism to go rife as the third world beats down Rome’s door to get in.
As for the antiwar lobby. Maybe it is on strike with the nurses for more pay or maybe they do not care because it is Putin and the antiwar is left and they so hate Putin for not laying out a red carpet for lgbtq+ propaganda so they just do not care so much as they do when it is some other “tyrant” but of course the real time-honoured tyrant always was us here in the west.
I agree with most of this. Pull the curtain back, and those pulling the strings are the capitalists; the woke capitalists worst of all. This is the end of American empire and our corpse of a president and his minions don’t even know it they are so stupid.
Fair summary
I agree with most of this. Pull the curtain back, and those pulling the strings are the capitalists; the woke capitalists worst of all. This is the end of American empire and our corpse of a president and his minions don’t even know it they are so stupid.
Fair summary
He says Putin is obviously the aggressor. Well it is a poor essay that relies on opinion as fact.
The fact is this conflict has been brewing for decades especially since Putin upended western Post cold war plans to make Russia a vassal and extract its resources for pennies like western postcolonialism has done since they had to give up outright slavery of weaker nations.
The conflict here is just a continuation of the east west battle for supremacy. China is as much a target as Russia because the west is as Rome was to Carthage. Its crime is just that it exists as a rival or potential rival. It is a Kronos complex to devour the young before any can unseat the king.
The Great Game is afoot still and coming to its denouement and Ukraine is just the one plucked out to be the star for this moment of western lies and deception based on false villainy and heroism which soon will be exposed after the war.
Promises were made to Gorbachev over expansion to Putin over Minsk to Putin again over the peace agreement ready to go whilst his forces were stopped on their way to Kiev waiting to go forward or back. Promises never meant as we found out by admissions by Merkel among others.
So the war is a final settling of things and it is also about Russia’s wealth
its oil its gas its weapons it can give to Iran that unsettles the neocon lobby.
The Great Game of Brzinski the project for a new American century. This is about empire this is not about Hollywood villains typecast played always by Chinese and Russians. This is about western financial capitalism which allows the west to be rich by devices such as the dollar and not the quality of what they produce. Allowing consumerism to go rife as the third world beats down Rome’s door to get in.
As for the antiwar lobby. Maybe it is on strike with the nurses for more pay or maybe they do not care because it is Putin and the antiwar is left and they so hate Putin for not laying out a red carpet for lgbtq+ propaganda so they just do not care so much as they do when it is some other “tyrant” but of course the real time-honoured tyrant always was us here in the west.
I suspect Democracy only makes logical sense in a small group, like a village, where all voices can be truly heard and considered. In society of a hundred million, who can know what ‘the People’ wish? The usual measure (voting) only happens every few years, with responses limited to a few questions. Between elections, the Sheep are herded towards the voting gate by the media, who also provide the only ‘voices’.
I suspect Democracy only makes logical sense in a small group, like a village, where all voices can be truly heard and considered. In society of a hundred million, who can know what ‘the People’ wish? The usual measure (voting) only happens every few years, with responses limited to a few questions. Between elections, the Sheep are herded towards the voting gate by the media, who also provide the only ‘voices’.
“Militarization”certainly did get rid of Napoleon, the Kaiser, the Tsar, Hitler, & the Soviets.
What are Swain’s alternatives in each of those instances?
He does know that just chanting “peace” only produces more CO2?
“Militarization”certainly did get rid of Napoleon, the Kaiser, the Tsar, Hitler, & the Soviets.
What are Swain’s alternatives in each of those instances?
He does know that just chanting “peace” only produces more CO2?
Yes, Sweden’s abandonment of its neutrality is deeply sad. It’s like discovering that a favorite aunt who was treasured for decades has recently taken their own life. I guess five decades of US-driven popular culture has blown away what many said it would end up destroying – the idiosyncracies and nuances in western culture and replace them with a uniform woke technocracy. To have survived 70 years of the Soviet Union on its doorstep and then acquiesed to the high-level risks of alliance politics after all that, seems so utterly unnecessary, especially when for many small to medium nations who want the kind of independent profile in the world that Sweden pioneered without having to place themselves in one of Uncle Sam’s pockets … it is deeply, deeply sad.
Yes, Sweden’s abandonment of its neutrality is deeply sad. It’s like discovering that a favorite aunt who was treasured for decades has recently taken their own life. I guess five decades of US-driven popular culture has blown away what many said it would end up destroying – the idiosyncracies and nuances in western culture and replace them with a uniform woke technocracy. To have survived 70 years of the Soviet Union on its doorstep and then acquiesed to the high-level risks of alliance politics after all that, seems so utterly unnecessary, especially when for many small to medium nations who want the kind of independent profile in the world that Sweden pioneered without having to place themselves in one of Uncle Sam’s pockets … it is deeply, deeply sad.