LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY - 15 JUIN : Chappell Roan se produit lors du Festival de la Fierté du Kentucky 2024 au Waterfront Park le 15 juin 2024 à Louisville, Kentucky. (Photo par Stephen J. Cohen/Getty Images)
‘Je sens que la célébrité est juste abusive,’ admet Chappell Roan dans une récente interview. ‘L’ambiance de cela — le harcèlement, les insultes en ligne, [les gens qui] ne vous laissent pas tranquille, qui vous crient dessus en public — c’est l’ambiance d’un ex-mari abusif. C’est ce que ça fait. Je ne savais pas que ça ferait si mal.’ Les 12 derniers mois ont vu la jeune femme de 26 ans passer de favorite culte à star mondiale, et à mesure qu’elle est devenue plus populaire, le comportement autour d’elle est devenu plus désagréable. Lorsque des inconnus décident qu’ils vous aiment, certains le montrent de manière étrange.
Roan a décrit comment un stalker s’est présenté à la fois dans sa chambre d’hôtel et chez ses parents dans le Missouri. Dans un autre incident, un groupe de fans a découvert ses informations de vol et l’a rencontrée à son arrivée à Seattle, où un homme était si enragé par son refus de signer un autographe que la police de l’aéroport a dû intervenir. Une autre fois, alors qu’elle était dans un bar pour célébrer l’anniversaire d’un ami, elle a été attrapée et embrassée par un fan.
Si Roan n’était pas célèbre, toutes ces choses seraient des exemples évidents de harcèlement ou d’agression. Mais elle est célèbre, donc — du moins pour les personnes qui le font — de telles actions existent dans une zone grise. Elle a recherché sa célébrité, et c’est ce que la célébrité implique, donc elle consent à cette attention lorsqu’elle a commencé à sortir de la musique.
Elle a été découverte sur YouTube à 17 ans, signée chez le label Atlantic, puis abandonnée en 2020 lorsque le confinement a étouffé ce qui aurait dû être sa grande percée. Elle a passé deux ans à se reconstruire pour arriver là où elle en est maintenant : les billets pour sa tournée britannique ont commencé à 20 £ lorsqu’ils ont été mis en vente en mars ; si vous voulez aller à son concert à Londres ce week-end, cela coûtera maintenant plus de 600 £ sur le marché de la revente.
Ces prix vous disent quelque chose sur la détermination des fans de Roan à se rapprocher de leur icône. C’est une passion qui, lorsqu’elle devient amère, se transforme en intrusion troublante et en harcèlement. Cela devient encore plus troublant lorsque vous réalisez que ce qu’elle a subi est assez normal pour les personnes célèbres. En avril de cette année, par exemple, une femme a été condamnée à la prison et placée sous une ordonnance de restriction de 10 ans pour avoir harcelé le chanteur Harry Styles, après lui avoir envoyé 8 000 cartes en un mois.
Plus souvent, cependant, c’est une femme harcelée par un homme obsédé. La ‘femme publique’ est, historiquement, un euphémisme pour prostituée : en se rendant visible, la logique crue va, elle se prive de la possibilité de refuser toute attention. Cela est attesté par la liste des artistes féminines qui ont offert leur soutien à Roan, y compris Lady Gaga, Sabrina Carpenter et Charli XCX. La chanteuse Mitski a envoyé un e-mail : ‘Je voulais juste vous accueillir humblement dans le club le plus pourri et exclusif du monde, le club où des inconnus pensent que vous leur appartenez et où ils trouvent et harcèlent vos membres de la famille.’
En plus de trouver un soutien privé, Roan a fait un effort public pour établir des limites. En août, elle a publié une déclaration sur Instagram exhortant les fans à la laisser tranquille lorsqu’elle n’était ‘pas en mode travail’ : ‘Je ne suis pas d’accord avec l’idée que je dois un échange mutuel d’énergie, de temps ou d’attention aux personnes que je ne connais pas, que je ne fais pas confiance, ou qui me mettent mal à l’aise — juste parce qu’elles expriment de l’admiration.’ Elle a réitéré cela sur TikTok.
Une chose notable est que la résistance de Roan a, jusqu’à présent, été presque universellement bien accueillie. Oui, certains fans individuels l’ont qualifiée de privilégiée ou d’égoïste pour avoir refusé de leur céder, mais dans la presse, la réaction a été largement célébratoire et solidaire. C’est un changement par rapport à une génération précédente, lorsque l’intrusion des fans était largement considérée comme un impôt juste sur la quête de l’attention publique.
En 1999, un psychiatre écrivant dans le Guardian affirmait qu’avoir un harceleur était ‘l’accessoire de mode ultime’. Trois ans plus tôt, le New York Times avait réprimandé Madonna pour avoir demandé un traitement spécial après qu’elle ait demandé à être excusée de témoigner en présence de l’homme accusé de l’avoir harcelée : le titre disait ‘Même toi, Madonna’. (Il a finalement été condamné, malgré les efforts de la défense pour affirmer que Madonna agissait dans la salle d’audience comme elle agissait à l’écran.)
Dans les années 2000, cette attitude a été accueillie avec enthousiasme par une culture de potins de célébrités vorace. Gawker — le blog de potins new-yorkais aujourd’hui disparu — était même assez impudent pour avoir une rubrique appelée ‘Gawker Stalker’, rapportant des observations en direct de célébrités dans la ville. Après que l’animateur de nuit Jimmy Kimmel a attaqué le site web à ce sujet, Gawker est passé à l’offensive dans un post auto-réprobateur et luride.
‘Le traitement de style harceleur est une description de la vie des personnes publiques en public, et est aussi un traitement auquel quiconque ayant une sorte de présence médiatique ou en ligne […] est désormais soumis,’ disait-il. ‘La seule différence est que les célébrités sont en quelque sorte protégées de ces attaques verbales par des ‘tas d’argent’.’ En d’autres termes, les célébrités ne sont traitées que de la même manière que tout le monde, et même si ce n’est pas le cas, leur statut de célébrité les empêche de recevoir de la sympathie.
Tout journaliste suggérant de la même manière aujourd’hui que Roan demande d’une certaine manière cela ou qu’elle est trop privilégiée pour être affectée par ce comportement aurait du mal, en grande partie parce que les médias sociaux ont donné aux artistes une ligne directe vers leurs propres fandoms — et à ces fandoms une ligne directe vers quiconque critique leurs héros. Et la connexion de Roan avec ses fans est exceptionnellement étroite, même en ces temps intensément parasociaux. Lorsqu’elle est retournée dans le Missouri pour se reconstruire, ce n’étaient pas ses chansons dans lesquelles elle a mis le plus d’efforts : c’était construire sa présence sur TikTok.
Sans label pour la pousser, elle a dû construire son propre public ; et parce que ses chansons et son acte se concentrent sur des idées de sexualité, de découverte de soi et de libération de la répression, ce public s’est lié à elle de manière étroite. Pour de nombreux fans, son travail les a aidés à découvrir et à exprimer les vérités les plus intimes sur eux-mêmes. Elle a dit au Face : ‘Je ne peux plus lire mes DMs, parce que je pleure tellement. Mais quand les gens disent : ‘Quoi que tu fasses, ça m’a aidé’ — je ne pense pas qu’aucune récompense ou aucun argent ou quoi que ce soit puisse être échangé contre ce compliment.’
C’est émotionnellement puissant. Mais c’est aussi le paradoxe inextricable de la célébrité à l’ère des médias sociaux. Vous devenez célèbre en cultivant la proximité avec votre public ; de cette proximité, certaines personnes vont extrapoler une relation qui s’étend au-delà de ce qui est sain. Les fans de Roan croient que, grâce à son travail, ils ont trouvé la version la plus vraie d’eux-mêmes.
De là, il n’y a qu’un pas à imaginer qu’ils connaissent aussi la version la plus vraie d’elle, et que si seulement ils pouvaient attirer son attention, elle reconnaîtrait le lien qu’ils partagent.
Il est révélateur qu’un des comportements de fans qu’elle a annoncé qu’elle ne tolérerait plus est celui des gens essayant d’attirer son attention en criant son nom de naissance (Chappell Roan est un nom de scène) : une autre manifestation de la fantaisie qu’ils connaissent son moi secret. L’ironie est que son acte s’inspire fortement du drag, une forme d’art qui concerne tout le camouflage en pleine vue. Pour Roan, ses costumes élaborés et son maquillage semblable à un masque agissent comme une division entre ses identités publique et privée. Pour les fans extrêmes et obsessionnels, cela représente simplement un défi à surmonter : un acte de coquetterie les incitant à intensifier leur quête.
Il est clairement intenable pour quiconque de vivre avec les exigences imposées à Roan par ses fans les plus obsessionnels. Mais il est également impossible de voir comment son besoin raisonnable de vie privée peut être équilibré avec le fait d’être le genre de célébrité à qui les fans envoient des messages très personnels sur leur propre histoire de coming out. Pour le moment, la meilleure défense de Roan contre le groupe de fans trop possessifs est un groupe de fans légèrement moins possessifs qui sont au moins réceptifs à ses demandes concernant les limites. C’est un choix entre deux manières différentes d’être traité comme une possession, l’une étant légèrement moins destructrice que l’autre.
La célébrité n’est pas le pouvoir — ou du moins, ce n’est pas uniquement le pouvoir. La célébrité est l’expérience d’être possédé par des millions de personnes différentes, chacune étant certaine que sa petite version éclatée de vous est plus vraie que la version que quiconque d’autre pourrait avoir ; chacune croyant que son amour lui donne droit à être aimé en retour. La seule façon de survivre est d’enterrer le ‘vrai vous’ hors de portée et de laisser les gens déverser leur dévotion dans une personne qui n’existe pas vraiment. Sinon, tout le monde finit comme Orphée : anéanti par ceux qui prétendent se soucier le plus.
This just sounds like a sure road to dystopian hell.
The author condemns the distortion of the mothering role, which would garner support from the vegans (who came out in force in trolling? Unherd comments recently – link below), and who oppose the same mother distortion approach with animals in farms, which is an intriguing hypocrisy.
https://unherd.com/2022/11/oat-milk-is-killing-the-planet/
And her focus on the mass production concept in the video to illustrate the immorality of the whole technology is rather shallow and a cheap shot. That’s not what would happen once such technology makes this possible – and it will happen fairly soon – it’s already around to a lesser degree.
Many thousands (tens of thousands?) of western women are already prepared to subcontract the gestation of their foetus to the wombs of other women, which I find morally questionable myself, and this has been found to result in Oedipal conflicts for the resultant child later in life; if these same women were given the technological opportunity to gestate their own foetus in a ‘mothering box’, avoiding health risks for today’s narcissists and with no attachment to another human rival ‘mother’, I suspect they would enthusiastically embrace that opportunity.
There are many reasons to question the benefits of such a technological approach to gestation, but this article is merely an emotive Luddite howl.
Calling out surrogacy for being horrible doesn’t somehow make this monstrosity more humane. You call out the mass production elements of the argument as a cheap shot with (unexplained) confidence it would never happen (despite the reference in article to a current factory-like model for surrogacy in Ukraine) yet your “cheap Luddite howl” comment is a far more egregious cheap shot.
This technology is horrifying if you value human relationships and specifically the mother-child relationship. Gestating babies connect with their mother to the point of being soothed by the mother’s heartbeat months after birth, which helps with emotional regulation as a toddler and beyond. Taking this soothing mechanism (and the bond itself) away from a baby, whether by surrogacy or by never allowing the baby to have a mother at all, is morally horrifying.
Multiple lines stuck out in your comment, but combination of treating certain technology as inevitable (“it will happen fairly soon”) and your use of Luddite as an insult is telling. Moral frameworks, translated into legal limits, can and should limit technology. We could have a Chinese-style surveillance state right now, but our moral and legal framework has put limits on this, however inadequate.
The idea of technological progress and power as an teleological imperative has led to many horrors over the last few centuries, and your comment reflects a sadly too common view, that horrifying futures must be allowed to manifest because the technology will allow it. As for this particular technology itself, we should reject it, and let the conditioners who would arrogantly try to rewire all of existence stick to their own fantasies.
You misinterpreted my whole position. I was criticising this article for being too narrow and opportunistic in its scope, thus undermining the arguments against the rapidly developing technological support for ‘remote’ gestation – and the better quality discussion that could be had about developing ‘legal and moral frameworks’ you refer to. Some people in the comments have provided that breadth.
Well, my apologies then. I should have read your comment more closely, and indulged in the cardinal internet sin of reacting too quickly. I had just read an article extolling the virtues of surrogacy on another site, I suppose I must be in a somewhat argumentative mood as a result.
Ha! Been there myself David! Maybe needed more clarity from me. I am extremely worried about the various aspects of remote gestation and parenting, and it would have been good if the writer had used this extreme concept to then consider the realities of what’s happening and about to happen, and get the comments from readers too, which I find quite insightful. Instead it’s more of a click bait piece which has resulted in predictable, and appropriate, disgust from commenters, but not much insight on the broader piece.
Ha! Been there myself David! Maybe needed more clarity from me. I am extremely worried about the various aspects of remote gestation and parenting, and it would have been good if the writer had used this extreme concept to then consider the realities of what’s happening and about to happen, and get the comments from readers too, which I find quite insightful. Instead it’s more of a click bait piece which has resulted in predictable, and appropriate, disgust from commenters, but not much insight on the broader piece.
Well, my apologies then. I should have read your comment more closely, and indulged in the cardinal internet sin of reacting too quickly. I had just read an article extolling the virtues of surrogacy on another site, I suppose I must be in a somewhat argumentative mood as a result.
You misinterpreted my whole position. I was criticising this article for being too narrow and opportunistic in its scope, thus undermining the arguments against the rapidly developing technological support for ‘remote’ gestation – and the better quality discussion that could be had about developing ‘legal and moral frameworks’ you refer to. Some people in the comments have provided that breadth.
Calling out surrogacy for being horrible doesn’t somehow make this monstrosity more humane. You call out the mass production elements of the argument as a cheap shot with (unexplained) confidence it would never happen (despite the reference in article to a current factory-like model for surrogacy in Ukraine) yet your “cheap Luddite howl” comment is a far more egregious cheap shot.
This technology is horrifying if you value human relationships and specifically the mother-child relationship. Gestating babies connect with their mother to the point of being soothed by the mother’s heartbeat months after birth, which helps with emotional regulation as a toddler and beyond. Taking this soothing mechanism (and the bond itself) away from a baby, whether by surrogacy or by never allowing the baby to have a mother at all, is morally horrifying.
Multiple lines stuck out in your comment, but combination of treating certain technology as inevitable (“it will happen fairly soon”) and your use of Luddite as an insult is telling. Moral frameworks, translated into legal limits, can and should limit technology. We could have a Chinese-style surveillance state right now, but our moral and legal framework has put limits on this, however inadequate.
The idea of technological progress and power as an teleological imperative has led to many horrors over the last few centuries, and your comment reflects a sadly too common view, that horrifying futures must be allowed to manifest because the technology will allow it. As for this particular technology itself, we should reject it, and let the conditioners who would arrogantly try to rewire all of existence stick to their own fantasies.
No, hell is real and this is one of many roads to it. Every tongue will confess.
The author condemns the distortion of the mothering role, which would garner support from the vegans (who came out in force in trolling? Unherd comments recently – link below), and who oppose the same mother distortion approach with animals in farms, which is an intriguing hypocrisy.
https://unherd.com/2022/11/oat-milk-is-killing-the-planet/
And her focus on the mass production concept in the video to illustrate the immorality of the whole technology is rather shallow and a cheap shot. That’s not what would happen once such technology makes this possible – and it will happen fairly soon – it’s already around to a lesser degree.
Many thousands (tens of thousands?) of western women are already prepared to subcontract the gestation of their foetus to the wombs of other women, which I find morally questionable myself, and this has been found to result in Oedipal conflicts for the resultant child later in life; if these same women were given the technological opportunity to gestate their own foetus in a ‘mothering box’, avoiding health risks for today’s narcissists and with no attachment to another human rival ‘mother’, I suspect they would enthusiastically embrace that opportunity.
There are many reasons to question the benefits of such a technological approach to gestation, but this article is merely an emotive Luddite howl.
No, hell is real and this is one of many roads to it. Every tongue will confess.
This just sounds like a sure road to dystopian hell.
I have some skin in this debate as an adult adoptee who was given up at birth in 1972 on the grounds of the RC church’s view on babies born out of wedlock. The neuroscience is clear that a close physical bond with responsive breastfeeding is ideal for an infant’s healthy brain development in the first 3 years of life, after which much of the die has already been cast.
Not coincidentally, a close physical bond with responsive breastfeeding has generally been the accepted norm and ideal for the whole of human history except the last few hundred years in industrialised countries.
The blindness to such biological facts is also seen in the issue of adoption by gay men, who by definition cannot provide the bond that nature wires us to need for our brain development.
Although wet nurses have been around for the elite in societies for more than a couple of thousand years now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_nurse
Although wet nurses have been around for the elite in societies for more than a couple of thousand years now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_nurse
I have some skin in this debate as an adult adoptee who was given up at birth in 1972 on the grounds of the RC church’s view on babies born out of wedlock. The neuroscience is clear that a close physical bond with responsive breastfeeding is ideal for an infant’s healthy brain development in the first 3 years of life, after which much of the die has already been cast.
Not coincidentally, a close physical bond with responsive breastfeeding has generally been the accepted norm and ideal for the whole of human history except the last few hundred years in industrialised countries.
The blindness to such biological facts is also seen in the issue of adoption by gay men, who by definition cannot provide the bond that nature wires us to need for our brain development.
That it is now routine for mothers to put their babies into daycare while they go back to work, shows we are on the march towards this motherless future.
The aim of public policy should be to encourage and protect traditional (and ideal) family life.
Maternity pay for mothers from birth until the child reaches school age shouldn’t be beyond the reach of a wealthy society.
Nor should houses cheap enough for a married couple to be able to afford on one wage be impossible(albeit with some scrimping and saving and sacrifice).
(Dramatically reduced immigration numbers, encouraging remote working – to prevent people having to live on the outskirts of cities – and the re-purposing of now redundant city-centre offices and shopping centres as housing, offers us the means to do this. Encouraging mums to stay at home until their kids go to school also reduces the need to import hundreds of thousands of child-minders.)
That it is now routine for mothers to put their babies into daycare while they go back to work, shows we are on the march towards this motherless future.
The aim of public policy should be to encourage and protect traditional (and ideal) family life.
Maternity pay for mothers from birth until the child reaches school age shouldn’t be beyond the reach of a wealthy society.
Nor should houses cheap enough for a married couple to be able to afford on one wage be impossible(albeit with some scrimping and saving and sacrifice).
(Dramatically reduced immigration numbers, encouraging remote working – to prevent people having to live on the outskirts of cities – and the re-purposing of now redundant city-centre offices and shopping centres as housing, offers us the means to do this. Encouraging mums to stay at home until their kids go to school also reduces the need to import hundreds of thousands of child-minders.)
To slightly paraphrase today’s article on Japan.
“Japan appears to have progressed a lot since” … women prioritised their children over their jobs.
The mindset that a woman’s only acceptable ambition is a career is now so well established it passes unnoticed.
To slightly paraphrase today’s article on Japan.
“Japan appears to have progressed a lot since” … women prioritised their children over their jobs.
The mindset that a woman’s only acceptable ambition is a career is now so well established it passes unnoticed.
Sounds like the movie “The Matrix”. Perhaps it’s intended to solve our energy crisis.
Wasn’t it also in Brave New World?
It’s awful. The idea of wealthy parents controlling the genetics of their babies is an appalling idea. I’m a big believer in the serendipity of reproduction.
It’s already happening on a large scale in India and China.
It is indeed in Brave New World, a book well worth reading these days.
It’s already happening on a large scale in India and China.
It is indeed in Brave New World, a book well worth reading these days.
Sounds like the movie “The Matrix”. Perhaps it’s intended to solve our energy crisis.
Wasn’t it also in Brave New World?
It’s awful. The idea of wealthy parents controlling the genetics of their babies is an appalling idea. I’m a big believer in the serendipity of reproduction.
Just not a good idea. At some level repulsive. At another frightening.
Seems like we are heading for humans without humanity.
Not a future I care to live to see.
But, I also think it is likely inevitable.
Just not a good idea. At some level repulsive. At another frightening.
Seems like we are heading for humans without humanity.
Not a future I care to live to see.
But, I also think it is likely inevitable.
The importance and value of a mother in a healthy society. Absolutely right. There’s no society without mothers.
Unfortunately, the word “mother” will become an anachronism in the woke future. And they will call it progress.
Unfortunately, the word “mother” will become an anachronism in the woke future. And they will call it progress.
The importance and value of a mother in a healthy society. Absolutely right. There’s no society without mothers.
I can’t help but wonder: if the hormonal and other changes that “make a mother” during gestation are vital to the sense of motherhood, what about the differences to the developing foetus? The right chemicals and others agents may well be provided (as they’d need to be!), but what about the sense of very close proximity to a mothers heartbeat? A sense also, of being carried around via the day-to-day movement of the mother?
Who knows how the lack of these, even if it’s attempted to provide such things artificially, might impact upon our species?
Also, what about the physiological effects on those mothers who’d choose to have their baby gestated in this way? It’s an established medical fact that women who pass through their childbearing years without ever having their periods stopping during pregnancy are more prone to cancer of the uterus. This was first noticed in nuns. We meddle with such a natural process at our peril.
Good points. I’m no expert but I’ve seen anecdotal evidence that IVF babies are more likely to be emotionally distant as they grow up, which makes sense. A dad of 5 told me once that he can associate the personalities of his children with the interests of him and his wife around their conception and pregnancy. My comment further up may also interest you
Exactly what I was thinking, about the possible effects on the baby from lacking that closeness during gestation. It’s horrifying to think how badly this could go wrong.
Good points. I’m no expert but I’ve seen anecdotal evidence that IVF babies are more likely to be emotionally distant as they grow up, which makes sense. A dad of 5 told me once that he can associate the personalities of his children with the interests of him and his wife around their conception and pregnancy. My comment further up may also interest you
Exactly what I was thinking, about the possible effects on the baby from lacking that closeness during gestation. It’s horrifying to think how badly this could go wrong.
I can’t help but wonder: if the hormonal and other changes that “make a mother” during gestation are vital to the sense of motherhood, what about the differences to the developing foetus? The right chemicals and others agents may well be provided (as they’d need to be!), but what about the sense of very close proximity to a mothers heartbeat? A sense also, of being carried around via the day-to-day movement of the mother?
Who knows how the lack of these, even if it’s attempted to provide such things artificially, might impact upon our species?
Also, what about the physiological effects on those mothers who’d choose to have their baby gestated in this way? It’s an established medical fact that women who pass through their childbearing years without ever having their periods stopping during pregnancy are more prone to cancer of the uterus. This was first noticed in nuns. We meddle with such a natural process at our peril.
Batteries for the Matrix.
Batteries for the Matrix.
None of the downsides looks so bad when you consider what is inflicted on naturally born children on the altar or ‘women’s rights’ and ‘the right to family life’. Neither, apparently assigns the baby any rights, or the parents any responsibilities. So what happens? We turn a blind eye to babies born to the obese, drug and drink addicts, 1st cousins, mothers and fathers who have neither the capacity nor the will to provide the essential shelter, warmth, nurture, encouragement, or example to do other than condemn them to sickness, neglect, misery, abuse, and to becoming yet another turn of the same cycle.
None of the downsides looks so bad when you consider what is inflicted on naturally born children on the altar or ‘women’s rights’ and ‘the right to family life’. Neither, apparently assigns the baby any rights, or the parents any responsibilities. So what happens? We turn a blind eye to babies born to the obese, drug and drink addicts, 1st cousins, mothers and fathers who have neither the capacity nor the will to provide the essential shelter, warmth, nurture, encouragement, or example to do other than condemn them to sickness, neglect, misery, abuse, and to becoming yet another turn of the same cycle.
Should just be outlawed, pure and simple
The Luddites will try… to no avail.
The Luddites will try… to no avail.
Should just be outlawed, pure and simple
Was there not a film made of this idea starring Scarlet Johannson and that Scots actor Ewen whatshisname?
Was it Cloud Atlas (from the novel by David Mitchell)? Rings a bell a sort of dystopia human robot factory in the 25th century in Korea ?
I think you mean ‘The Island’ (spoilers ahoy) where people have sentient clones kept aside for spare parts / organs. They are told they are living in a perfect commune and that they’ve won ‘a lottery’ when it’s their time to be harvested. It’s actually a reasonably amusing movie.
Was it Cloud Atlas (from the novel by David Mitchell)? Rings a bell a sort of dystopia human robot factory in the 25th century in Korea ?
I think you mean ‘The Island’ (spoilers ahoy) where people have sentient clones kept aside for spare parts / organs. They are told they are living in a perfect commune and that they’ve won ‘a lottery’ when it’s their time to be harvested. It’s actually a reasonably amusing movie.
Was there not a film made of this idea starring Scarlet Johannson and that Scots actor Ewen whatshisname?
Tangential but related to this article, I have yet another reading recommendation for anyone interested in sci-fi which incidentally explores some of the things we are now beginning to see (like for example zygote banks): the ‘Across Realtime’ series by Vernor Vinge. By no means great literature, but decent storytelling and more importantly, a great ideas factory. The books are stand-alone, the third book is about the best, and that’s where I would head first because the mood is a dirge, a fuge, for a humanity that has departed, and characters from the first and second meet there, the first book is the weakest but still interesting, the middle book, a short novella, is very funny.
Tangential but related to this article, I have yet another reading recommendation for anyone interested in sci-fi which incidentally explores some of the things we are now beginning to see (like for example zygote banks): the ‘Across Realtime’ series by Vernor Vinge. By no means great literature, but decent storytelling and more importantly, a great ideas factory. The books are stand-alone, the third book is about the best, and that’s where I would head first because the mood is a dirge, a fuge, for a humanity that has departed, and characters from the first and second meet there, the first book is the weakest but still interesting, the middle book, a short novella, is very funny.
I wonder what the range of opinions on this would be if polled exclusively from mothers who have given birth the traditional way within the past few weeks?
I wonder what the range of opinions on this would be if polled exclusively from mothers who have given birth the traditional way within the past few weeks?
Eventually the artificial womb will free women completely from the burden of child bearing and, together with egg freezing, will permit the production of babies regardless of the woman’s age.
If egg freezing “represents the second wave of female emancipation”, then the artificial womb surely represents the third.
The purpose of the artificial womb is not to increase the production of human babies, it’s to free women from the burden and inconvenience of gestation.
Make no mistake, the womb will find its first uses in animal breeding, where the financial rewards will be huge. Extension to humans will initially be to help those women who are unable to bear children, followed closely by the rich and famous who want to avoid the inconvenience and damage to their appearance. Female athletes will be next and then the rest of the female population will get on board.
At some point in the future, even the thought of a woman actually bearing a child will seem archaic, disgusting and primitive.
It’s the future. Like it or not. It can be delayed, but not stopped.
And human life will cease to have true cellular level connection and will consequently cease to have value beyond financial.
It’s a terribly sad outlook.
On the contrary, we can be very optimistic for what is to come. The future is bright indeed.
The artificial womb will allow men and women to lead increasingly separate lives and follow their own path.
Women will be freed from the oppression of the patriarchy and will be able to fully realise their “the future is feminist” goals without obstruction from men. Women will finally be free to build their own world and shape their own society.
For men, the artificial womb together with advanced AI sex bots will liberate them socially and economically from the needs of women. The redirection of resources into creativity and invention will be revolutionary.
On the contrary, we can be very optimistic for what is to come. The future is bright indeed.
The artificial womb will allow men and women to lead increasingly separate lives and follow their own path.
Women will be freed from the oppression of the patriarchy and will be able to fully realise their “the future is feminist” goals without obstruction from men. Women will finally be free to build their own world and shape their own society.
For men, the artificial womb together with advanced AI sex bots will liberate them socially and economically from the needs of women. The redirection of resources into creativity and invention will be revolutionary.
This is an abomination to God, the creator. Make no mistake, Jesus is coming and every tongue will confess.
I’m with Christopher Hitchens on this.
I’m with Christopher Hitchens on this.
And human life will cease to have true cellular level connection and will consequently cease to have value beyond financial.
It’s a terribly sad outlook.
This is an abomination to God, the creator. Make no mistake, Jesus is coming and every tongue will confess.
Eventually the artificial womb will free women completely from the burden of child bearing and, together with egg freezing, will permit the production of babies regardless of the woman’s age.
If egg freezing “represents the second wave of female emancipation”, then the artificial womb surely represents the third.
The purpose of the artificial womb is not to increase the production of human babies, it’s to free women from the burden and inconvenience of gestation.
Make no mistake, the womb will find its first uses in animal breeding, where the financial rewards will be huge. Extension to humans will initially be to help those women who are unable to bear children, followed closely by the rich and famous who want to avoid the inconvenience and damage to their appearance. Female athletes will be next and then the rest of the female population will get on board.
At some point in the future, even the thought of a woman actually bearing a child will seem archaic, disgusting and primitive.
It’s the future. Like it or not. It can be delayed, but not stopped.
I see the failures in this being our future but I have a different view. I recently became a grandmother. My daughter suffered heart failure, lung collapse, blood clot and sepsis during childbirth and we nearly lost her. She was previously healthy. It is recommended that she not have a second child due to the risk of this happening again. This might be an opportunity for her to safely have another baby.
I see the failures in this being our future but I have a different view. I recently became a grandmother. My daughter suffered heart failure, lung collapse, blood clot and sepsis during childbirth and we nearly lost her. She was previously healthy. It is recommended that she not have a second child due to the risk of this happening again. This might be an opportunity for her to safely have another baby.
As with every technology, it all depends on how well or badly this is managed. A real conservative would, somehow, find a way to integrate this into a traditional lifestyle.
It sounds impossible now, but I am sure someone could manage it.
Would it/should it be the majority way for raising babies? Now, that is a very different question…
(though solar system colonisation means that it may be the primary way in certain rare circumstances)
This is pure hubris and a deep misunderstanding about the essence of technology. It’s not just tools used by the quasi-divine autonomous human creator; technology transcends and changes us. Ivan Illich and Bernard Stiegler are brilliant on this. Humans without humanity is the future being laid out and it will define the coming politics. And on the question of the conservative attitude, surely conservatism should be about necessary limits, not unbridled technological domination of everything?
The point being missed is this: no one is laying out a future – what is happening is happening because large numbers, within we as humanity, want this to happen, notwithstanding there are many that don’t. Even within conservatism there is a split pretty much down the middle – and I bet you even within the strongly religious sections there will be plenty who will embrace human editing technologies when faced with stark choices. For example imagine such a family is directly faced with the choice of progressing with a foetus which the biomedical profession tells you will have multiple lifelong conditions and will spend many years in pain. Given that most in that situation will not be in a position to challenge the biomedical establishment, what do you think is likely such a family would do if offered the chance to edit the genetics of the foetus or of termination or go right ahead to birth with the conditions?
And just for avoidance of doubt, anyone suggesting that the djinn of actually checking a foetus before it progresses to birth should be reversed, and laws should be passed to mandatory not looking at all until birth, is delusional.
Exactly.
There may be rare circumstances where it is preferable to grow a baby in a pod.
There will be many, many, circumstances where a mother will gaze adoringly at the baby she has just birthed.
The genie can almost never be put back in the bottle, but it can be managed…
A man adopting a baby on his own is a crime against motherhood, then that would be many many victims of war or disaster that would be turfed into the cold for lack of a mother.
Exactly.
There may be rare circumstances where it is preferable to grow a baby in a pod.
There will be many, many, circumstances where a mother will gaze adoringly at the baby she has just birthed.
The genie can almost never be put back in the bottle, but it can be managed…
A man adopting a baby on his own is a crime against motherhood, then that would be many many victims of war or disaster that would be turfed into the cold for lack of a mother.
The point being missed is this: no one is laying out a future – what is happening is happening because large numbers, within we as humanity, want this to happen, notwithstanding there are many that don’t. Even within conservatism there is a split pretty much down the middle – and I bet you even within the strongly religious sections there will be plenty who will embrace human editing technologies when faced with stark choices. For example imagine such a family is directly faced with the choice of progressing with a foetus which the biomedical profession tells you will have multiple lifelong conditions and will spend many years in pain. Given that most in that situation will not be in a position to challenge the biomedical establishment, what do you think is likely such a family would do if offered the chance to edit the genetics of the foetus or of termination or go right ahead to birth with the conditions?
And just for avoidance of doubt, anyone suggesting that the djinn of actually checking a foetus before it progresses to birth should be reversed, and laws should be passed to mandatory not looking at all until birth, is delusional.
This is pure hubris and a deep misunderstanding about the essence of technology. It’s not just tools used by the quasi-divine autonomous human creator; technology transcends and changes us. Ivan Illich and Bernard Stiegler are brilliant on this. Humans without humanity is the future being laid out and it will define the coming politics. And on the question of the conservative attitude, surely conservatism should be about necessary limits, not unbridled technological domination of everything?
As with every technology, it all depends on how well or badly this is managed. A real conservative would, somehow, find a way to integrate this into a traditional lifestyle.
It sounds impossible now, but I am sure someone could manage it.
Would it/should it be the majority way for raising babies? Now, that is a very different question…
(though solar system colonisation means that it may be the primary way in certain rare circumstances)