«Dans le seul endroit en Amérique où les femmes ont encore le droit de choisir, vous pouvez voter comme vous le souhaitez et personne ne le saura jamais.»

Les journalistes ont maintenant passé près d’une décennie à hanter les fermes et les tavernes de l’Amérique rurale, essayant de comprendre pourquoi des millions de gens de cœur ont voté pour Trump. C’est une histoire romantique, opposant les outsiders aux élites, et expliquant comment le milieu oublié de l’Amérique a trouvé de l’espoir dans un milliardaire new-yorkais mal dégrossi. Mais comprendre ces électeurs et empathiser avec eux sont des choses très différentes. Les démocrates ne récupèrent pas leurs pertes et les républicains continuent de faire des progrès. Dans le Wisconsin, par exemple, un stratège républicain m’a dit que les premiers résultats montrent en fait que Trump gagne dans les petites villes et les fermes.
Cependant, si les champs et les forêts semblent perdus pour l’Amérique libérale — même si les villes votent de manière fiable en bleu de Portland à Albuquerque — le seul champ de bataille qui reste est ce qui se trouve au milieu. Je parle des banlieues : les centres commerciaux et les drive-in où 43 % des Américains vivent. Ils sont certainement moins attrayants pour l’imagination collective des médias que les forêts du Michigan ou les communautés montagnardes de Virginie. Mais s’ils sont plus Starbucks que fermes laitières, l’élection est sur le point d’être décidée ici, avec des activistes se battant à travers le genre et l’affiliation politique pour franchir la ligne.
Le moyen le plus simple de comprendre le pouvoir politique des banlieues est à travers la démographie. Considérons les statistiques. Selon Pew, 46 millions d’Américains vivent dans des zones rurales, tandis que 98 millions vivent dans des zones « centrales urbaines ». Pourtant, ces chiffres pâlissent par rapport aux banlieues — qui abritent environ 175 millions de personnes. Pour le dire différemment, les banlieues sont simplement une plus grande part du gâteau électoral, et ont le poids nécessaire pour faire ou défaire des campagnes présidentielles.
Tout aussi important, l’électorat des États clés tend à être concentré dans les banlieues des grandes villes. Il y a de nombreux exemples ici, de Raleigh (Caroline du Nord) et Detroit (Michigan) à Atlanta (Géorgie). Ou bien il y a mon Wisconsin natal. En dehors de Milwaukee se trouvent les trois comtés suburbains de Washington, Ozaukee et Waukesha — ensemble connus sous le nom de « WOW » — qui abritent plus de 600 000 Wisconsinois, soit environ 10 % de la population du Wisconsin. Philadelphie, pour sa part, a sa propre version du phénomène WOW, où ses quatre soi-disant comtés « de col » sont parmi les plus riches et les plus éduqués de l’État, et en effet comptent plus de personnes que Philadelphie et Pittsburgh réunis.
Au-delà des chiffres bruts de la population, les banlieues comptent en raison de la façon dont les résidents votent. Contrairement à leurs cousins ruraux et urbains, les électeurs de la masse suburbaines sont divisés fondamentalement au milieu entre les deux partis. Et si cela les rend dignes d’être courtisés, peu importe vos opinions politiques, cela est également clair à partir des récents cycles électoraux. Traditionnellement, les comtés WOW du Wisconsin ont été des bastions républicains. À l’ère Trump, cependant, le GOP gagne ces zones avec des marges en érosion — ce qui signifie que la baisse des chiffres dans les banlieues affecte le total républicain à l’échelle de l’État. « Comme toujours, Trump n’est toujours pas fort dans les ‘burbs eux-mêmes », me dit un stratège républicain du Wisconsin, « mais son attrait dans les zones exurbaines reste fort, et il gagne vraiment encore des votes ruraux et de petites villes. » Quant aux démocrates, ajoutent-ils, le parti « tient bon » dans les zones urbaines comme Milwaukee et Madison, même s’ils gagnent également du terrain dans des zones plus suburbaines.
En Pennsylvanie, la victoire de Joe Biden en 2020 était en partie le résultat de sa popularité dans ces comtés ouvriers de Philadelphie, et en effet, elle a corrigé son sous-performance dans la ville de l’Amour Fraternel elle-même. Il a aidé que Biden soit à la fois un natif de Pennsylvanie avec une aisance ouvrière et un candidat du changement se présentant contre l’économie pandémique. Pourtant, si Harris se trouve dans une position relativement moins confortable — se présentant en tant que vice-présidente en exercice et au milieu d’un mécontentement concernant à la fois l’économie et la frontière — les conséquences de Covid pourraient en fait l’aider dans les banlieues plus au sud.
En Caroline du Nord, par exemple, la pandémie a conduit de nombreux électeurs de gauche à fuir leurs petits appartements urbains et à s’installer dans les banlieues de villes comme Charlotte ou Greensboro, un phénomène qui pourrait avoir modifié de manière permanente l’électorat. Comme l’analyse de Bloomberg l’a révélé, ces comtés qui ont connu la « plus forte croissance démographique » se sont tournés vers les démocrates entre 2016 et 2020 — y compris de nombreux comtés suburbains qui ont voté pour Donald Trump lors de la dernière élection.
« Des changements similaires se produisent en Arizona, en Géorgie et dans d’autres champs de bataille clés pour la course de la semaine prochaine », a ajouté Bloomberg. « C’est une continuation d’une tendance de 2020, lorsque les banlieues ont décidé de l’élection. » Certainement, c’est quelque chose que Parker Short a également remarqué. « J’ai vu ce changement dans les banlieues de mes propres yeux », explique le président des Jeunes Démocrates de Géorgie, qui a grandi à Dunwoody, une banlieue aisée d’Atlanta nommée d’après un officier confédéré. « Depuis 2016, ma ville est passée d’un conseil municipal entièrement républicain à un conseil entièrement démocrate. »
Comme cette référence à 2016 l’implique, un facteur important ici concerne le dégoût que ressentent de nombreux habitants des banlieues pour les tendances plus vulgaires de Trump. C’est particulièrement vrai en Géorgie : Short dit que les banlieues d’Atlanta sont largement devenues bleues après que Trump a rejeté les résultats de l’élection de 2020 et attaqué les responsables locaux du GOP. Cela est également confirmé par des preuves anecdotiques. « Alors que j’étais dans la file d’attente pour voter », dit Short, « un couple blanc âgé derrière moi m’a confié qu’ils votaient pour Kamala Harris, et qu’ils étaient des républicains de longue date. »
Et si cela explique pourquoi Harris a inlassablement fait campagne sur une plateforme de « démocratie » — utilisant des figures républicaines comme Liz Cheney pour convaincre d’anciens conservateurs de devenir bleus pour le bien de la république — c’est une histoire similaire au niveau local. Dans le comté de Stafford samedi, au milieu des vastes banlieues de Virginie, une file d’attente de trois heures serpentait autour du trottoir à un bureau de vote. C’était le dernier jour pour voter en avance et les démocrates avaient dépêché les épouses du sénateur Tim Kaine et d’Eugene Vindman pour gérer la file. Ce dernier choix est révélateur : en plus d’être candidat à la Chambre des représentants, Eugene Vindman est aussi le frère jumeau d’Alexander, qui est devenu un chouchou libéral après avoir témoigné contre Trump lors de sa première mise en accusation. Comme l’a dit la femme de Vindman aux électeurs : « Ce pour quoi il se bat vraiment, c’est le service. »
Au-delà d’un engagement abstrait envers la Constitution, l’accent mis par Harris sur la prétendue menace de Trump à l’état de droit est également important pour des raisons plus pragmatiques — surtout en ce qui concerne l’Amérique des banlieues. Pour citer un stratège démocrate, le parti doit vraiment « persuader les électeurs républicains ‘traditionnels/établis’ dans leur ensemble, et cela concerne vraiment l’amélioration de la marge avec les électeurs diplômés de l’université, dont beaucoup sont des femmes des banlieues, car non seulement [Harris] perd des électeurs non diplômés par de grandes marges, mais elle ne s’en sort pas non plus aussi bien avec des groupes traditionnellement démocrates comme les jeunes et les personnes de couleur. »
Avec la migration interne et le dégoût pour Trump, il y a aussi un troisième facteur qui pourrait faire basculer les banlieues vers le bleu : le genre. Comme le souligne Short, en effet, l’une des tendances les plus frappantes dans sa ville natale d’Atlanta est la façon dont les femmes des banlieues se tournent vers les démocrates. Ce n’est pas particulièrement difficile à comprendre. En dehors du comportement douteux de Trump envers les femmes, il y a aussi la question de l’avortement. Avec l’affaire Dobbs ne garantissant plus l’accès à l’avortement à l’échelle nationale, et de féroces batailles juridiques sur la question en cours dans des états comme la Géorgie, il n’est pas surprenant que Short suggère que cela « poussera des dizaines de milliers » de femmes aux urnes — bien qu’il pense que beaucoup ont probablement déjà voté bleu.
Après Dobbs, les démocrates ciblent ce qu’ils considèrent comme le changement de la politique d’un autre groupe : les femmes des banlieues mariées à des républicains. Comme l’explique Chuck Rocha, un stratège démocrate explique, « la grande différence dans cette élection concerne les femmes blanches mariées à des hommes républicains qui pourraient être des républicains inscrits mais qui veulent voter pour Kamala Harris. » Cela, selon Rocha, est parce qu’elles veulent voir une femme présidente, sont contrariées par Dobbs, ou identifient Trump à des hommes odieux qu’elles ont personnellement connus et qu’elles ne voudraient jamais voir près des codes nucléaires.
Étant donné l’expérience de Rocha dans des États clés — il travaille actuellement dans le Wisconsin, l’Arizona et la Pennsylvanie, entre autres champs de bataille — il est sûrement quelqu’un à écouter. Ou vous pourriez simplement allumer la télévision. Moins d’une semaine avant le jour des élections, un groupe progressiste a fait pression sur Julia Roberts. Dans une publicité pro-Kamala, l’actrice a narré une scène où des femmes blanches entraient dans un bureau de vote. « Dans le seul endroit en Amérique où les femmes ont encore le droit de choisir, vous pouvez voter comme vous le souhaitez et personne ne le saura jamais », dit Roberts alors que les femmes votent pour Harris, retournent vers leurs maris et assurent leurs hommes qu’elles « ont fait le bon choix ».
« N’oubliez pas, » ajoute Roberts, « ce qui se passe dans l’isoloir, reste dans l’isoloir. » Comme l’explique Rocha, ce dernier point fait référence à ce qu’il appelle le « vote silencieux » — principalement des femmes diplômées de l’université qui ne sont pas prises en compte dans les sondages, mais qui prévoient néanmoins de voter pour le parti démocrate en privé. Et si le Vote Common Group, le groupe derrière le coup, dépense 30 000 $ pour que Julia Roberts soit diffusée dans les foyers des femmes dans les États clés, cette dépense est un pari sur le « vote silencieux » de Rocha pour faire pencher la balance mardi. Avec Harris en tête de neuf points parmi les femmes, les démocrates exploitent manifestement quelque chose de réel — la question est de savoir s’ils le font suffisamment bien pour contrer les efforts républicains.
Les démocrates ne sont pas les seuls à faire appel aux ménagères suburbaines modérées. Au-delà de se concentrer sur les préoccupations habituelles concernant l’inflation et la migration, les républicains essaient également de faire des percées en se concentrant sur l’infiltration du radicalisme progressiste dans les zones suburbaines où les réunions des associations de parents d’élèves ont été bouleversées par des batailles culturelles sensibles. « La question trans a été incroyablement puissante — et ce n’est pas seulement d’après nos recherches — elle apparaît dans les données de tout le monde », déclare Terry Schilling du American Principles Project, interrogé particulièrement sur ce qui fonctionne dans les banlieues. « C’est pourquoi nous le voyons sans cesse pendant la Série mondiale et presque tous les matchs de football universitaire et professionnel. » Cela est suffisamment clair dans la pratique : dans un district clé de Caroline du Nord, englobant certains des banlieues orientales de Raleigh, les républicains viennent de financer une publicité dépeignant le titulaire démocrate en drag, mettant en avant son soutien au transgenrisme. Schilling, pour sa part, dit que son « instinct » lui dit que Trump fera un peu mieux dans les comtés suburbains cette fois-ci. Avant les élections de mi-mandat en 2022, 40 % des femmes américaines ont dit que les opinions sociétales sur l’identité de genre changeaient « trop rapidement ».
De retour dans le comté de Stafford, les républicains disent qu’ils voient un schéma similaire à celui de Schilling. Lorsque je me suis arrêté au stand du GOP, une femme d’âge moyen posait joyeusement entre des découpes grandeur nature de Trump et RFK Jr. Alors qu’elle regardait cette scène joyeuse se dérouler derrière elle, la femme du président local du GOP m’a dit que Kennedy et Elon Musk attiraient beaucoup de gens dans le parti, les femmes étant particulièrement désireuses de voter républicain cette fois-ci. Comme Schilling, elle a déclaré que beaucoup étaient particulièrement préoccupés par l’idéologie de genre extrême.
Quoi qu’il en soit, les choses s’annoncent serrées. Biden a remporté le comté de Stafford par moins de trois mille voix — un peu plus de 3 % — en 2020. Quatre ans plus tôt, Trump avait battu Clinton de près de 10 points. Pas, bien sûr, que tout cela se passe en isolation. À environ 20 miles au sud de Stafford, le comté de King George est désigné rural par le Commonwealth de Virginie. Là, Biden a fait mieux que Hillary Clinton, mais Trump a tout de même gagné de plus de 10 points en 2020 — et avec plus de voix aussi. Pour le dire autrement, vous n’avez pas à conduire trop loin des banlieues aisées de DC pour découvrir des routes de campagne parsemées de panneaux Trump. La question que se posent maintenant les républicains est de savoir si ces panneaux, et leurs propriétaires, seront suffisants si le GOP perd enfin la bataille pour les banlieues.
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeProtecting the feelings of an imaginary friend has taken precedence over protecting the human right for free speech! The world needs to stand together against the OIC. More pressure should be put on the OIC to reform Islam. Islam’s intolerance must not be tolerated at the expense of human rights.
Some one once said: We live in a time where intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won’t be offended.
Protecting the feelings of an imaginary friend has taken precedence over protecting the human right for free speech! The world needs to stand together against the OIC. More pressure should be put on the OIC to reform Islam. Islam’s intolerance must not be tolerated at the expense of human rights.
Some one once said: We live in a time where intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won’t be offended.
There are always bullies and there are always cowards eager to appease them. These Scandinavian countries will experience, again, the usual result. Bowing to violent tyranny only brings on more violent tyranny.
There are always bullies and there are always cowards eager to appease them. These Scandinavian countries will experience, again, the usual result. Bowing to violent tyranny only brings on more violent tyranny.
Is it illegal in Iran to burn the Bible? Just asking …
Is it illegal in Iran to burn the Bible? Just asking …
Ugh. Very disappointing.
Ugh. Very disappointing.
So will places like Iran ban the burning of other countries’ flags?
So will places like Iran ban the burning of other countries’ flags?
Prima donnas with beards.
Prima donnas with beards.
There seem to be many ‘liberal’ minded people in Europe who live and breathe, the hippy, one world nirvana. Let’s just all get on together. What does it matter if some people believe in gods, and some don’t. We all interpret the World in equally valid ways. Just take people on Unherd like Paul Kingsnorth! Intelligent, well read, articulate; all searching for meaning in their lives.
But utterly misguided. The project which started with the European Enlightenment led to a standard of living that previous generations simply couldn’t imagine. Reason over superstition is a superior (choose your own term) way of engaging with the world and our existence. If you prefer superstition that’s your choice, but as the saying goes, you can ignore reality but you can’t ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
I hope that the Danish and Swedish submission in the face of Islamic threats doesn’t begin a retreat from the intellectual revolution that was the Enlightenment.
‘I hope that the Danish and Swedish submission in the face of Islamic threats doesn’t begin a retreat from the intellectual revolution that was the Enlightenment.’
Sadly, the retreat started years ago and the craven attitude of our western politicians / academics appears unlikely to change.
‘I hope that the Danish and Swedish submission in the face of Islamic threats doesn’t begin a retreat from the intellectual revolution that was the Enlightenment.’
Sadly, the retreat started years ago and the craven attitude of our western politicians / academics appears unlikely to change.
There seem to be many ‘liberal’ minded people in Europe who live and breathe, the hippy, one world nirvana. Let’s just all get on together. What does it matter if some people believe in gods, and some don’t. We all interpret the World in equally valid ways. Just take people on Unherd like Paul Kingsnorth! Intelligent, well read, articulate; all searching for meaning in their lives.
But utterly misguided. The project which started with the European Enlightenment led to a standard of living that previous generations simply couldn’t imagine. Reason over superstition is a superior (choose your own term) way of engaging with the world and our existence. If you prefer superstition that’s your choice, but as the saying goes, you can ignore reality but you can’t ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
I hope that the Danish and Swedish submission in the face of Islamic threats doesn’t begin a retreat from the intellectual revolution that was the Enlightenment.
“But when conducted by private individuals, they serve as non-violent symbolic expressions intended to convey a message — the essence of free expression”
But the message might not be ‘Hate’ as you seem to suggest, it might just be that the defense of FofS *requires* making ‘deliberately provocative’ performances. Here’s an example: I’d not think of burning a Koran myself … *unless it was made illegal* in which case I’d burn one simply to convey my objection to that law. Use it or lose it. A Koran burning is a way of very explicitly exercising one’s FofS in the face of those who would slowly but surely erode that right.
“But when conducted by private individuals, they serve as non-violent symbolic expressions intended to convey a message — the essence of free expression”
But the message might not be ‘Hate’ as you seem to suggest, it might just be that the defense of FofS *requires* making ‘deliberately provocative’ performances. Here’s an example: I’d not think of burning a Koran myself … *unless it was made illegal* in which case I’d burn one simply to convey my objection to that law. Use it or lose it. A Koran burning is a way of very explicitly exercising one’s FofS in the face of those who would slowly but surely erode that right.
Nothing reveals better than cases like this how the development and maintenance of an open and tolerant society is not something which expresses the potentialities of a universal human nature when this is uncorrupted by social prejudices and the tyranny of custom, as liberals too often suppose, but is rather a precarious achievement which presupposes a certain self-confidence and maturity among the citizenry: a maturity, developed over centuries, which can distinguish genuine harm from mere offence, and which can shrug off the latter while prosecuting the former.
If a society should become so oblivious of the historical contingency of its fortunate situation as to unthinkingly import into its citizenry sufficient numbers of cultural aliens who have not been socialised from childhood into such self-confidence and maturity, it will be faced with an unappealing trilemma: either (1) it must abandon its hard-won toleration of dissent, however crudely expressed, or (2) it must become accustomed to increasing levels of antagonism and social unrest between faith groups who do not respect and cannot or will not tolerate one another (including the faith group of anti-religious secularists), or (3) it must make life so hard for one or more of those faith groups that they will have no choice but to emigrate. Probably it will opt for an ineffective blend of all of these, or else will shift uneasily from one to the other in an opportunistic fashion. In any case there is certain to be a severe escalation in faith-based violence along the way.
Nothing reveals better than cases like this how the development and maintenance of an open and tolerant society is not something which expresses the potentialities of a universal human nature when this is uncorrupted by social prejudices and the tyranny of custom, as liberals too often suppose, but is rather a precarious achievement which presupposes a certain self-confidence and maturity among the citizenry: a maturity, developed over centuries, which can distinguish genuine harm from mere offence, and which can shrug off the latter while prosecuting the former.
If a society should become so oblivious of the historical contingency of its fortunate situation as to unthinkingly import into its citizenry sufficient numbers of cultural aliens who have not been socialised from childhood into such self-confidence and maturity, it will be faced with an unappealing trilemma: either (1) it must abandon its hard-won toleration of dissent, however crudely expressed, or (2) it must become accustomed to increasing levels of antagonism and social unrest between faith groups who do not respect and cannot or will not tolerate one another (including the faith group of anti-religious secularists), or (3) it must make life so hard for one or more of those faith groups that they will have no choice but to emigrate. Probably it will opt for an ineffective blend of all of these, or else will shift uneasily from one to the other in an opportunistic fashion. In any case there is certain to be a severe escalation in faith-based violence along the way.
As at 14:31 BST. Where are the other FIVE comments?
ps. I don’t understand why UnHerd bothers to discuss Islam!
This happens on every occasion, and by the time the comments reappear, IF they reappear at all, the day will be over and the discussion thwarted.
True, discussions would be far more lively, if our comments weren’t vetted.
Given the power in both influence and finances of orgs, bikie billionaires, etc. willing to stifle independent journalism/freedom of expression, I admire Unherd’s courage to display e.g. my comments about Australia’s lawlessness at all.
Thankfully people need to be paid subscribers to even vote up/down our comments, let alone abuse us in counter comments.
We are paying the price for ignoring insanity assuming that it won’t prevail. It will be a hard job, if not impossible to reinstate the values and principles that made humans thrive in peace.
Peace being the existence of justice, not just the absence of war.
PS: several of my public LinkedIn posts expressing angst about Australia never having had functional law-enforcement, bikies making billions $ in the drug-trade yearly, and our dismal prospects, given Clare O’Neil’s* incompetent hubris/vanity have disappeared without a warning.
Tech, including cyber-tech far beyond what’s known to civilian experts at the time have been used against me since 2009 in an ongoing crime-spree in physical and cyber-space by an ex-coworker stalker organised-crime info source. I never even dated the stalker. Using tech not known to civilian experts in bizarre, seemingly pointless crimes is a long-established crime witness/victim discreditation strategy of Victoria Police officers and their accomplices. See Raymond T. Hoser’s brave publications about Victoria Police corruption.
The disappearance of my public LinkedIn posts that were possibly damaging to the ongoing risk-free operation of Australia’s bikie gangs has nothing to do with bikies doing victory-laps around my home since I discovered the disappearance. Of course not.
As a public servant witness to crimes punishable by 10 years in jail/worse, whom Victoria Police have been trying to silence since 2009, I will continue making public interest disclosures about Australia’s absurd crime reality via every possible platform, until I see positive, material changes to Australia’s crime fighting ability/willingness. Since Australia faked its way into Five Eyes, AUKUS, etc., and the Internet is everywhere, Australia’s lawlessness poses a significant global threat.
#ididnotstaysilent
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katalin-kish-38750b154/
—
* Australia’s Minister for Cyber Security AND Home Affairs no less since mid-2022.
PS: several of my public LinkedIn posts expressing angst about Australia never having had functional law-enforcement, bikies making billions $ in the drug-trade yearly, and our dismal prospects, given Clare O’Neil’s* incompetent hubris/vanity have disappeared without a warning.
Tech, including cyber-tech far beyond what’s known to civilian experts at the time have been used against me since 2009 in an ongoing crime-spree in physical and cyber-space by an ex-coworker stalker organised-crime info source. I never even dated the stalker. Using tech not known to civilian experts in bizarre, seemingly pointless crimes is a long-established crime witness/victim discreditation strategy of Victoria Police officers and their accomplices. See Raymond T. Hoser’s brave publications about Victoria Police corruption.
The disappearance of my public LinkedIn posts that were possibly damaging to the ongoing risk-free operation of Australia’s bikie gangs has nothing to do with bikies doing victory-laps around my home since I discovered the disappearance. Of course not.
As a public servant witness to crimes punishable by 10 years in jail/worse, whom Victoria Police have been trying to silence since 2009, I will continue making public interest disclosures about Australia’s absurd crime reality via every possible platform, until I see positive, material changes to Australia’s crime fighting ability/willingness. Since Australia faked its way into Five Eyes, AUKUS, etc., and the Internet is everywhere, Australia’s lawlessness poses a significant global threat.
#ididnotstaysilent
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katalin-kish-38750b154/
—
* Australia’s Minister for Cyber Security AND Home Affairs no less since mid-2022.
You don’t know why UnHerd discusses the world’s second largest and fastest growing religion, and the consequences of its adherents abroad and at home interacting with western societies?!
Why discuss anything then?
True, discussions would be far more lively, if our comments weren’t vetted.
Given the power in both influence and finances of orgs, bikie billionaires, etc. willing to stifle independent journalism/freedom of expression, I admire Unherd’s courage to display e.g. my comments about Australia’s lawlessness at all.
Thankfully people need to be paid subscribers to even vote up/down our comments, let alone abuse us in counter comments.
We are paying the price for ignoring insanity assuming that it won’t prevail. It will be a hard job, if not impossible to reinstate the values and principles that made humans thrive in peace.
Peace being the existence of justice, not just the absence of war.
You don’t know why UnHerd discusses the world’s second largest and fastest growing religion, and the consequences of its adherents abroad and at home interacting with western societies?!
Why discuss anything then?
As at 14:31 BST. Where are the other FIVE comments?
ps. I don’t understand why UnHerd bothers to discuss Islam!
This happens on every occasion, and by the time the comments reappear, IF they reappear at all, the day will be over and the discussion thwarted.
We are pathetically in thrall to this savage and utterly illiberal creed. It will never change because we pander to it in ever-increasing fear, but denial, of its essence.
We are pathetically in thrall to this savage and utterly illiberal creed. It will never change because we pander to it in ever-increasing fear, but denial, of its essence.
Why not ban all book burning? “Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also”.
Exactly my response. This legal shift is not about book-burning per se but specifically to make the Islamic Koran a special case. I cannot think of a worse response. Laws designed for ‘special circumstances’ i.e. exemptions by any other word, always end up bad law. I would like to see a law on book-burning adopted throughout Europe.
Rather pointless to ban Koran burning to appease Muslims as the book burners will presumably adopt ritually tearing or soaking and turning the Koran into pulp to achieve the end of expressing their disapproval and to wind up Muslims. To adopt the preferred response to ban any destruction of or act of disrespect to the Koran would have to be balanced by a similar ban on disrespect of any text regarded as holy by any religious group and would constitute a return to blasphemy laws.
It would certainly be impractical to extend a similar protection to all books.
Rather pointless to ban Koran burning to appease Muslims as the book burners will presumably adopt ritually tearing or soaking and turning the Koran into pulp to achieve the end of expressing their disapproval and to wind up Muslims. To adopt the preferred response to ban any destruction of or act of disrespect to the Koran would have to be balanced by a similar ban on disrespect of any text regarded as holy by any religious group and would constitute a return to blasphemy laws.
It would certainly be impractical to extend a similar protection to all books.
The reason might be that it is authoritarian to ban symbolic acts of protest such as book or burning. The Nazis famously burned piles of books, but whether this helped or hindered their rise to untrammelled state power, which is what actually enabled them to murder millions of people, is not at all clear.
Exactly my response. This legal shift is not about book-burning per se but specifically to make the Islamic Koran a special case. I cannot think of a worse response. Laws designed for ‘special circumstances’ i.e. exemptions by any other word, always end up bad law. I would like to see a law on book-burning adopted throughout Europe.
The reason might be that it is authoritarian to ban symbolic acts of protest such as book or burning. The Nazis famously burned piles of books, but whether this helped or hindered their rise to untrammelled state power, which is what actually enabled them to murder millions of people, is not at all clear.
Why not ban all book burning? “Where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also”.
Something not mentioned: The Swedish government contains a lot of people who under other circumstances would be happy to defend the right to protest over the unhappiness of any number of Muslims. (And a good many who are saying exactly that right now.) The problem is that many of these politicians want to join NATO rather more than they want pretty much anything else, and as long as the burnings go on, Erdoğan won’t give Turkey’s approval. And this means that the people who are most interested in keeping Sweden out of NATO, are planning to keep on burning Qurans for as long as it takes.
Do try to keep up, Laura. Erdogan dropped his opposition weeks ago.
That was then, now we are hearing it is back again.
That was then, now we are hearing it is back again.
Do try to keep up, Laura. Erdogan dropped his opposition weeks ago.
Something not mentioned: The Swedish government contains a lot of people who under other circumstances would be happy to defend the right to protest over the unhappiness of any number of Muslims. (And a good many who are saying exactly that right now.) The problem is that many of these politicians want to join NATO rather more than they want pretty much anything else, and as long as the burnings go on, Erdoğan won’t give Turkey’s approval. And this means that the people who are most interested in keeping Sweden out of NATO, are planning to keep on burning Qurans for as long as it takes.
Sad news. A retrograde step, Appeasement.
Sad news. A retrograde step, Appeasement.
I assure you, Europe is filled with spineless jellyfish, and is only getting its just deserts.
I assure you, Europe is filled with spineless jellyfish, and is only getting its just deserts.
Plenty of Muslims were happy to burn the Satanic Verses. The thing is, in terms of the quality of the content, the Satanic Verses is a much, much, much, much, much … much x a million, better read. Are there ANY books that are worse reads than the Quran? I’ve not read any.
Anyway, isn’t this (burning the Quran) a case of Equal treatment, in the light of the alacrity in so many Muslims to burn the Satanic Verses?
Quran is actually not a bad read if you read it in the context of 7th century literature!
Yes, there are books that are worst reads than Quran. Any book by Deepak Chora would fall into the worst-reads category!
A matter of taste perhaps, but I read every word of the Koran and I found it to be a crushing bore. Endless repetitions of the same sermon exhorting the faithful to keep killing.
A matter of taste perhaps, but I read every word of the Koran and I found it to be a crushing bore. Endless repetitions of the same sermon exhorting the faithful to keep killing.
Quran is actually not a bad read if you read it in the context of 7th century literature!
Yes, there are books that are worst reads than Quran. Any book by Deepak Chora would fall into the worst-reads category!
Plenty of Muslims were happy to burn the Satanic Verses. The thing is, in terms of the quality of the content, the Satanic Verses is a much, much, much, much, much … much x a million, better read. Are there ANY books that are worse reads than the Quran? I’ve not read any.
Anyway, isn’t this (burning the Quran) a case of Equal treatment, in the light of the alacrity in so many Muslims to burn the Satanic Verses?
Yet again as at 0902 BST, 02.08.23.:
31 Comments recorded but ONLY 11 shown!
Where are the rest and WHY have they been censored?
Yet again as at 0902 BST, 02.08.23.:
31 Comments recorded but ONLY 11 shown!
Where are the rest and WHY have they been censored?
All done on purpose to bring in government censorship rules across the world! So easy to see
All done on purpose to bring in government censorship rules across the world! So easy to see
Let us all calm down a bit. Until a few years ago, Denmark at least had a law against blasphemy, which could have been used to stop this. At most we would be moving back to, say 1997, not 1769. There are already laws against hate speech that restrict argument and expression of honest (if unpopular) opinion. I think some of those go too far, but they have not caused armageddon yet. There are also laws against burning the flags of foreign nations. The freedom to publish the Satanic Verses, the Danish cartoons, or even Charlie Hebdo (much as I find it disgusting) is a hill worth dying on. The Koran burnings are neither expressions of opinion nor argument, but deliberately attempts to offend for the hell of it – much like those UK muslims a few years back who went to funerals of dead soldiers and loudly rejoiced that those men were now in hell. Good riddance to either. If Rasmus Paludan and company actually have anything to say, they can find another way of saying it. If they just want to provoke strife, let them do it in Syria or Pakistan, without demanding the protection of Danish police.
“The Koran burnings are neither expressions of opinion nor argument”
I disagree. They are expressions of hatred for whatever the burned thing represents. We lose our freedoms from the edges inward, no? Thus, if one is to defend freedom of speech, one must do it at the edges, where it is being attacked. Thus, in a nation where I’m free to burn the Koran, I’d not think of doing so, but in a nation that’s contemplating banning it, then I’ll feel obliged to burn a Koran just to assert my right to do so.
“The Koran burnings are neither expressions of opinion nor argument”
I disagree. They are expressions of hatred for whatever the burned thing represents. We lose our freedoms from the edges inward, no? Thus, if one is to defend freedom of speech, one must do it at the edges, where it is being attacked. Thus, in a nation where I’m free to burn the Koran, I’d not think of doing so, but in a nation that’s contemplating banning it, then I’ll feel obliged to burn a Koran just to assert my right to do so.
Let us all calm down a bit. Until a few years ago, Denmark at least had a law against blasphemy, which could have been used to stop this. At most we would be moving back to, say 1997, not 1769. There are already laws against hate speech that restrict argument and expression of honest (if unpopular) opinion. I think some of those go too far, but they have not caused armageddon yet. There are also laws against burning the flags of foreign nations. The freedom to publish the Satanic Verses, the Danish cartoons, or even Charlie Hebdo (much as I find it disgusting) is a hill worth dying on. The Koran burnings are neither expressions of opinion nor argument, but deliberately attempts to offend for the hell of it – much like those UK muslims a few years back who went to funerals of dead soldiers and loudly rejoiced that those men were now in hell. Good riddance to either. If Rasmus Paludan and company actually have anything to say, they can find another way of saying it. If they just want to provoke strife, let them do it in Syria or Pakistan, without demanding the protection of Danish police.
They are forever burning books. Soon they will burn men. Heinrich Heine
They are forever burning books. Soon they will burn men. Heinrich Heine
So nothing has actually happened to ban anyone from burning whatever books they feel like?
Still, the thought of burning Qurans sure gets the UnHerd crowd all excited – why not publish some clickbait nonsense?!?!?
No doubt the same folks get themselves in a frenzy when someone burns a US flag.
So nothing has actually happened to ban anyone from burning whatever books they feel like?
Still, the thought of burning Qurans sure gets the UnHerd crowd all excited – why not publish some clickbait nonsense?!?!?
No doubt the same folks get themselves in a frenzy when someone burns a US flag.
Public Koran burning is a non violent symbolic expression of what? Being a t**t? The game’s not worth the candle, Sweden’s accession to NATO is being held up because of someone’s urge to publicly insult someone else’s religion, and for what reason? Its not like its a rational critique of the shortcomings of Islam, that might have some value.
Making the issue about burning specifically the Koran, or not, is the problem. I don’t see book-burning anywhere by anyone as a defendable way to protest anything. We all know where book-burning leads us. They should – we should – simply ban book-burning.
You’re right
You’re right
Making the issue about burning specifically the Koran, or not, is the problem. I don’t see book-burning anywhere by anyone as a defendable way to protest anything. We all know where book-burning leads us. They should – we should – simply ban book-burning.
Public Koran burning is a non violent symbolic expression of what? Being a t**t? The game’s not worth the candle, Sweden’s accession to NATO is being held up because of someone’s urge to publicly insult someone else’s religion, and for what reason? Its not like its a rational critique of the shortcomings of Islam, that might have some value.
You’re getting ahead of yourself, Jacob. There is a proposal in Denmark to make such acts illegal but in Sweden, as of today, that’s just not the case. The government there have been keeping their heads down and are focusing right now on security for Swedish subjects. Changing the law is complicated since there is a conflict with the Grundlag (Basic Law/form of Constitution). Common sense would say that these demonstrations have more to do with intolerance/hate rather than freedom of speech/expression, so it would be reasonable to ban these, especially if the consequences affect issues of national security (embassies/NATO/foreign relations).
“ if the consequences affect issues of national security”.
If that is the case then the best course of action would to repatriate ALL Muslims currently living in Sweden and Denmark back to their place of origin.
Let’s face it, ‘they’ are completely incompatible with the Scandinavian way of life. Always have been, always will be.
Otherwise this will “end in tears”.
Please stop grovelling in the face of authoritarians. The fragility of a religion is in inverse proportion to it’s ability to be criticised, mocked even. Giving in to geopolitical blackmail would only lead to further demands, and those who seek to appease will not be appreciated by either side – and it is a cultural war.
Totally agree – these extremists are inciting religion hatred and damaging Sweden’s international reputation, there’s no need for it and it should be stopped.
Cower in the face of angry authoritarians if you want. The rest of us will stand up for free expression even by those we disagree with. Freedom is more important than good manners.
Freedom of speech/expression does not mean you can say or do absolutely anything. Inciting religious hatred is a crime.
That’s palpably absurd. If “freedom of speech/expression” does not mean one can say or do absolutely anything (save the immediately dangerous “fire” in a theater), it doesn’t mean anything at all. Inciting religious hatred is stupid, wrong, venal, and cruel. It’s also protected free speech. When it escalates to actual physical harm (largely the province lately, as it happens, of one particular religion – you know which one) then we punish the harm as a criminal act. Up until then it’s just an idea, and an making an idea a criminal act is literally right out of Orwell.
That’s palpably absurd. If “freedom of speech/expression” does not mean one can say or do absolutely anything (save the immediately dangerous “fire” in a theater), it doesn’t mean anything at all. Inciting religious hatred is stupid, wrong, venal, and cruel. It’s also protected free speech. When it escalates to actual physical harm (largely the province lately, as it happens, of one particular religion – you know which one) then we punish the harm as a criminal act. Up until then it’s just an idea, and an making an idea a criminal act is literally right out of Orwell.
Freedom of speech/expression does not mean you can say or do absolutely anything. Inciting religious hatred is a crime.
Cower in the face of angry authoritarians if you want. The rest of us will stand up for free expression even by those we disagree with. Freedom is more important than good manners.
Speech/expression is either free or it is not. It is never “reasonable” to ban them, no matter how “intolerant” or “hateful” they are. Doing so gives a heckler’s veto over your society to whatever group happens to get its feelings hurt. That’s not how freedom works. Sticks and stones.
Who gets to apply their common sense to deciding what is permitted and what is banned? An official censor? An Imam?
‘Common sense would say that these demonstrations have more to do with intolerance/hate rather than freedom of speech/expression’. That’s really opening up a can of worms. Just whose ‘common sense’ gets to define intolerance/hate?
Where I live right now, saying publicly – in person, or online – that you believe biological sex is immutable is regarded by the police as a hate crime and will always be followed up by them. Physically punching a woman for expressing that belief isn’t a crime though, as the unfortunate Julie Marshall discovered last week (Times, 27 July).
Shovelling koran-burning into the already overfilled doggy-bag of ‘hate crimes’ really isn’t going to help. Just ban all book-burning: a ‘fahrenheit 451 law’. That really would help. Destroying the written word really can’t claim to be helping expression of free speech. Whereas we all know where book-burning ends up.
Sinead o’Connor died last week. One of her most famous actions was tearing up a photo of the Pope on live TV. This will have caused pain to Catholics; ‘ban’ or ‘free speech’?
In the late sixties there were Vietnam War demonstrations outside the US Embassy in Grosvenor Sq.
A regular feature was the burning of the US flag. This will have caused pain to patriotic Americans.
‘Ban’ or ‘free speech’?
Where does book burning by private individuals end up? Are you saying it ends with government burning books? I’m just not sure what you are getting at.
Sinead o’Connor died last week. One of her most famous actions was tearing up a photo of the Pope on live TV. This will have caused pain to Catholics; ‘ban’ or ‘free speech’?
In the late sixties there were Vietnam War demonstrations outside the US Embassy in Grosvenor Sq.
A regular feature was the burning of the US flag. This will have caused pain to patriotic Americans.
‘Ban’ or ‘free speech’?
Where does book burning by private individuals end up? Are you saying it ends with government burning books? I’m just not sure what you are getting at.
“ if the consequences affect issues of national security”.
If that is the case then the best course of action would to repatriate ALL Muslims currently living in Sweden and Denmark back to their place of origin.
Let’s face it, ‘they’ are completely incompatible with the Scandinavian way of life. Always have been, always will be.
Otherwise this will “end in tears”.
Please stop grovelling in the face of authoritarians. The fragility of a religion is in inverse proportion to it’s ability to be criticised, mocked even. Giving in to geopolitical blackmail would only lead to further demands, and those who seek to appease will not be appreciated by either side – and it is a cultural war.
Totally agree – these extremists are inciting religion hatred and damaging Sweden’s international reputation, there’s no need for it and it should be stopped.
Speech/expression is either free or it is not. It is never “reasonable” to ban them, no matter how “intolerant” or “hateful” they are. Doing so gives a heckler’s veto over your society to whatever group happens to get its feelings hurt. That’s not how freedom works. Sticks and stones.
Who gets to apply their common sense to deciding what is permitted and what is banned? An official censor? An Imam?
‘Common sense would say that these demonstrations have more to do with intolerance/hate rather than freedom of speech/expression’. That’s really opening up a can of worms. Just whose ‘common sense’ gets to define intolerance/hate?
Where I live right now, saying publicly – in person, or online – that you believe biological sex is immutable is regarded by the police as a hate crime and will always be followed up by them. Physically punching a woman for expressing that belief isn’t a crime though, as the unfortunate Julie Marshall discovered last week (Times, 27 July).
Shovelling koran-burning into the already overfilled doggy-bag of ‘hate crimes’ really isn’t going to help. Just ban all book-burning: a ‘fahrenheit 451 law’. That really would help. Destroying the written word really can’t claim to be helping expression of free speech. Whereas we all know where book-burning ends up.
You’re getting ahead of yourself, Jacob. There is a proposal in Denmark to make such acts illegal but in Sweden, as of today, that’s just not the case. The government there have been keeping their heads down and are focusing right now on security for Swedish subjects. Changing the law is complicated since there is a conflict with the Grundlag (Basic Law/form of Constitution). Common sense would say that these demonstrations have more to do with intolerance/hate rather than freedom of speech/expression, so it would be reasonable to ban these, especially if the consequences affect issues of national security (embassies/NATO/foreign relations).