'The coolest, most charismatic movie star in the world.' Credit: Fight Club

Everyone knows the famous exchange in The Wild One (1953) even if they haven’t seen the movie — a brassy dame in a blonde beehive asking Marlon Brando “What are you rebelling against?”, a slightly pouty-looking Marlon Brando answering, “Whattaya got?” Most people probably don’t remember the grace note in this exchange, which is the brassy blonde cackling wonderfully at Brando’s answer.
I like to imagine a similar exchange being inserted into David Fincher’s 1999 film Fight Club, with the same brassy blonde asking the question, but instead of Marlon Brando giving the answer, it’s Fight Club’s Edward Norton. “What are you fightin’ against?” the blonde would ask, and Edward Norton, looking even poutier than Marlon Brando but also sleepy and a little bruised around the eyes, would answer, “Well, a lot of things. For example….” Then, in his sad nasal voice, he’d start to list all the ways the imperfect world has wounded him and let him down and left him unfulfilled. On the beat where the blonde’s brilliant laugh is supposed to erupt there is no laugh because there is no beat, because Ed Norton is still listing his complaints. Then the movie cuts to where the blonde was standing but she’s not there, and so the camera whirls to the bar where, without waiting for Ed Norton to finish his list of complaints, she’s gone to get another beer.
In The Wild One, Marlon Brando’s Johnny is making a short declaration about himself — he’s rebelling because he’s rebellious. But in Fight Club, Ed Norton’s talkative “Narrator” is looking outward. He has a critique, of society. This distinction is pleasingly, neatly periodising. Brando’s famous response — hinting at violence and upheaval that he disdains to justify — is redolent of the early Fifties, when Sartre-style existentialism would have been circulating among the sort of people who wrote movies. On the other hand, the answer I’ve imagined Ed Norton’s Narrator giving in my extra Fight Club scene — which he does give throughout the actual Fight Club, and gives even more fully in the Chuck Palahniuk novel the movie’s based on — is so Nineties.
This year, Fight Club is celebrating 25 years as a box office disappointment that became a cult obsession for teenage boy and young men. That it came out at the very end of the Nineties is almost too convenient, making it not only a faithful document but also a consummation or climax of that decade.
But I should start at the beginning, at the moment where our unnamed “Narrator” is battling a small handful of afflictions, both physical and spiritual, that seem to stem from his crushing insomnia, or that might be the reason he can’t sleep in the first place. It’s not clear. Mainly, he’s listless and disaffected at his white-collar job, which requires a fair amount of airplane travel. And he’s feeling cynical about the many material comforts this well-paying job has allowed him to assemble, instead of comforted by them. Other issues are probably festering below the surface, but these are the ones we know about when the Narrator visits a young doctor who, instead of handing him a prescription for sleeping pills, suggests he check out a support group for men whose cancerous testicles have been removed.
The Narrator finds this suggestion befuddling, understandably, but he decides to give it a shot, and he’s pleasantly surprised when it works. After sitting in the testicular cancer group, and other support groups for people with real afflictions, the Narrator’s insomnia dissipates completely. He’s finally able to sleep — until a raggedy beauty named Marla Singer (Helena Bonham-Carter) starts showing up to his groups. She’s obviously a “tourist” like him, not a true sufferer, and her presence in the groups destroys their healing powers for him. After a brief, sweet spell of sleeping like a baby he’s thrown into a new insomnia, this time with added bitterness at Marla Singer.
It’s in this bitter and bleary state, on an airplane during another work trip, that he meets the heedless and charismatic hipster who made this film into a cult object, the movie demigod whose name has echoed through one generation already and will surely echo into a next: Tyler Durden, played indelibly by Brad Pitt. On the night they meet, after they’ve been drinking in a bar, the Narrator and Tyler start fighting in the parking lot, more or less out of curiosity. Neither man has been in a fight before. When, on subsequent nights, they repeat these outdoor recreational fistfights, men start gathering to watch, and then some, and then a lot, of these men pair off to fight as well. The Narrator and Tyler thus expose two powerful forces working, hidden, among the sizeable population of men like them: a desire to fight, and a desire to join a club. Or, to put it less glibly, they discover that men like them carry a desperate hunger to learn something true and essential about themselves outside of their numbing and boring lives, even if this entails pain, injury and disfigurement; and they learn that, for these men, the best way to start on this path of discovery is in the company of other men.
This message isn’t new, of course. For example, young men terrified at being shipped off to war have often missed it — the extremity of experience, the deep camaraderie forged in this extremity — once they have returned to the safety and comfort of regular life. Nor is Fight Club the first work of art to use this opposition as critique, to make regular life look false and decadent by comparison with pain and terror. When I say that Fight Club is so Nineties, I mean that, in both its content and its tone, its critical message expresses specific fixations that flowered in that decade and in some ways defined it. In the movie, these seem some combination of kitschy and stylish, silly and serious. Fight Club is cornier and more callow than an adult viewer should be able to tolerate, but, thanks to David Fincher’s genius at conjuring paranoia through image and action, and thanks to Pitt’s exhilarating performance, it carries a convincing suggestion of deep meaning and high stakes that transcends the period-specific details of its worldview.
In certain ways, these details are interesting precisely because of the fertile, frivolous decade they illustrate. Among the things the Narrator laments or derides throughout the novel and/or movie are: having a job, having a boss, the Ikea catalogue, having a wife, friends who got married, his table settings, rich people, his sofa, the contents of his refrigerator, his condo, his condo building, advertising, fathers, his father and risk analysis. Many of these minor beefs reflect the anxieties that congealed into popular form after the dramatic disappearance of Soviet communism, when the idea of nuclear war receded and, to young people in the affluent West, a perpetual peace of liberal capitalism seemed to spread like a fog in all directions. It’s fitting that the Narrator is portrayed as a budding bourgeois, with a university education and a desirable job managing abstractions. Unease with the new order grew most conspicuously among the affluent and well-educated, who stood amid the geopolitical calm and abundant opportunity and wondered, “Is this all there is?” And the Narrator’s attempts to cope with this ambiguous triumph through a sort of postmodern drollness about his own consumerism perfectly convey the knowing critical style of the time, when magazines like AdBusters and The Baffler went after capitalism by hurling irony and mockery against the symbolic worlds built by its entertainment and advertising subsidiaries. Even when the film turns more violent, and the fighters of the fight club turn into a sort of insurgency, their acts of mayhem generally have an ironic, symbolic, theatrical character. They are countering the spectacle of capitalism with spectacular gestures of their own. Again, all this is very Nineties.
What’s also very Nineties is Fight Club’s way of capturing the Narrator’s inner turmoil, the spiritual and emotional sickness that sends him and his followers on their quest for relief and redemption in the first place. This is where the film’s current relevance, the meaning it’s been given in the contemporary culture war, gets a little weird. Some conservative writers see Fight Club as celebrating the lost masculine virtues of warlike hardness and sacrifice, and offering a critique of today’s increasingly, oppressively feminised regime of public morality and political economy. The young men who turned it into the ultimate cult film have generally embraced it in this spirit. Given the masculine eros of the film, this is understandable. But Fight Club’s extremely period-specific understanding of what men are and what they lack makes it a strange candidate to play this culture-war part.
Why, for example, can’t the Narrator sleep? What does he need? What he needs, apparently, what his culture won’t let him do, is to cry. He’s been holding it in, but now, thanks to his attendance at the testicular cancer support group, he can let it all out. Once he cries, he sleeps. At the brain parasites group, he learns to identify the “power animal” — a cute penguin — that lives deep inside his mind, perhaps frolicking there with his “inner child”, which he seeks and finds in testicular cancer and brain parasites, until cursed Marla shows up and blocks his inner-child access. This all expresses a particular Nineties therapy culture that has been left behind in its particulars, for the most part, but that is an obvious precursor to the therapy culture shaping the human spirit today. In other words, the therapeutic schema that informs Fight Club’s view of the male psyche is a close ancestor of the outlook that reluctant men are now cajoled and hectored to get on board with. In Nineties psychotherapy, the emancipatory metaphysics of the Sixties counterculture gained new power thanks to this figure of the inner child, and to the therapeutic dispensation that encouraged patients to blame everything on their parents, even if they had to invent memories to make their case. These tropes are so ubiquitous in Fight Club they function as a sort of anthropology.
It’s not just the sad-sack Narrator. When floridly macho Tyler shows up and starts riffing on what’s wrong with the world, he sounds the same themes that the Narrator does, though in his brasher and more buoyant tones. When at one point he declares, “We’re a generation of men raised by women”, it sounds like a call to arms in the battle of the sexes. He seems to be naming the torment of today’s men — their subjection by women. But neither he nor the Narrator ever actually criticise the influence of women. Tyler’s declaration cuts against a different villain — men.
Or, more specifically, fathers. The generation of lost and yearning fight clubbers was raised by women because those women were abandoned by their husbands. The Narrator and Tyler weren’t stunted in their incipient manhood by tyrannical women. They were wounded, their inner children are wounded still, by their feckless fathers. Assuming the diseased testicle thing is supposed to be a metaphor — it’s both too on-the-nose to assume it isn’t and too clumsy, too obscure in its culprit, to be totally sure about — the testicle problem with Fight Club’s men isn’t that they’ve been castrated by women. It is more likely that they were left emasculated, or un-masculated, by the flight of their male role models. As an illustrative side-note, I’ll just point out that Chuck Palahniuk’s Wikipedia page says his parents split up when he was 14. I’ll also point out that one thing both the Fight Club novel and the Fight Club movie seem to carry on every page and in every frame is the sodden mess of feelings of a teenage boy whose parents just split up.
The idea that a man needs to be able to cry sometimes, to rage a little at the injuries that the world has inflicted on his inner child, to punch and be punched as a way to feel his emotions in a world that denies validity to those emotions might, indeed does, help fuel the melodrama of a fun movie like Fight Club, but it doesn’t fit very well into any Right-wing critiques that I can think of.
By this point, some readers may have thrown up their hands in exasperation because I’m taking the movie literally, because I don’t realise the film is really a critique or even a satire of the Narrator’s tale of manhood lost in the Nineties and redeemed by masculine camaraderie and collective violence, not an endorsement of it. This is the sophisticated liberal’s reading of the movie. For example, popular liberal writer Matthew Yglesias makes fun of “the guys I knew in college who thought the point of Fight Club was that launching fight club was a great idea”. “[I’m] begging everyone,” he goes on, “to pay more attention to what’s happening in this movie!” He’s confident that, if people would only pay more attention and remember that (spoiler alert) the fight club devolves into a terrorist cell that blows up a bunch of buildings, they’d realise… what? That the whole thing was a prank? That the film’s masculine pathos is an aesthetic ruse, and that anyone who felt it unironically as they watched the movie missed the real, anti-masculinist messaging?
A rather simple response to this is that it’s totally possible, even common, for a movie to portray a course of life as genuinely motivated and powerfully appealing that eventually goes astray or goes too far without ironising or satirising or repudiating the genuineness and the appeal. Life is complicated. Things often go too far precisely because the motivation behind them is so organic and potent. There are human passions that would grip a movie audience as true and beautiful even as they began pointing at bad results, after which the movie audience, instead of repudiating their sympathetic identification with the people who took things too far, would be reminded that life is complicated, and movies are movies. For example, they might sympathise with a movie’s portrayal of male lostness and thrill to parts of its portrayal of male solidarity and also leave the theatre unshaken in their belief that blowing up buildings is bad. This doesn’t inevitably trap them in some kind of paradox they can only resolve by retconning the movie into a critique of the things they were just grooving on. Even the juiced-up teenagers and Right-wing agitators who swoon at Fight Club’s melodrama of empowered machismo don’t go on to blow up buildings — despite the fact that some of them actually started fight clubs.
But there’s an even simpler response, which gets much closer to the true, unironic appeal of Fight Club as both a movie experience and a cult fixation, that revises the thing Francois Truffaut supposedly said about anti-war movies: “There’s no such thing as an anti-war movie.” In case it’s not clear, Truffaut (supposedly) meant that war is unavoidably thrilling on screen and so even anti-war movies end up glorifying war simply in portraying it. Fight Club is the most powerful, most incontrovertible evidence for my altered version of Truffaut’s saying: There’s no such thing as an anti-Brad Pitt movie.
In other words, the idea that David Fincher cast Brad Pitt as Tyler Durden in Fight Club, and had Brad Pitt give the performance he gave in Fight Club, so as to simply discredit the values Brad Pitt’s character embodies and the things that come out of Brad Pitt’s mouth is not just hard to believe. It’s hilarious. Pitt’s charisma in that movie is so ridiculously powerful, his performance is so infectious, that, even if he were saying and doing patently odious things the whole way through, the odiousness would still have an aura of sexy persuasiveness around it. Rather than a totally superfluous critique or satire of odiousness, we would have what the fancier critics call “moral ambiguity”.
But Brad Pitt’s not even praising odiousness, for the most part. He’s lamenting feckless fathers. He’s denouncing the spiritual pathogens of spectral capitalism. He’s mounting a critique of inauthentic living. These aren’t profound positions, but a director would take their appeal to a movie audience entirely for granted, especially if the coolest, most charismatic movie star in the world, in the most magnetic performance of his or maybe anyone’s career, is expressing them in beautiful bursts of physical movement while wearing retro fashions and wraparound sunglasses.
In one account of the making of Fight Club, Fincher is quoted as saying, “We were making a satire.” The account’s author and others are eager to take this claim at face value. After all, it’s Right-wing Neanderthals and teenage boys with distasteful urges who are turning the movie into a movement. It’s wise to make up a satire alibi that establishes some hygienic distance from such losers. But pretty much everything else that everyone involved in making the movie — the screenwriter, Pitt, Palahniuk, Fincher himself — says about the source material shows that they found the Narrator’s story of men adrift extremely powerful and relatable. It resonated, unironically, with their own lives. If, like those teenage boys and Right-wing Neanderthals, they also understood the Narrator’s sad story as valid, and the need for a remedy like fight club as thus real, what, exactly, is Fight Club a satire of? Blowing up buildings?
Pointless as that would be, Fincher indicates that the film’s final violent act really is the thing he’s satirising, but he says it in a way that totally confuses the issue. Fight Club, he says, “is as serious about blowing up buildings as The Graduate is about fucking your mom’s friend”. As a guy who saw The Graduate in his late teens, I’m tempted to take this statement literally, that is, as meaning that Fight Club is totally down with blowing up buildings. But I think he’s trying to say something else. He’s trying to say that if it’s Brad Pitt dressed in disco polyester telling people to blow up buildings, you’re gonna have to count on those people to understand that it’s a movie and to make the right decisions when it’s over, despite the strange attraction that blowing up buildings suddenly has.
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SubscribeIt’ so ironic, it almost beggars belief, one could wail, gnash one’s teeth and stamp up and down with despair. The one thing that could have united this country, was the Empire. Instead of using it as a building block, to forge a new sense of community, a common heritage, it has been traduced and reviled and used to sow dissent and bitterness. Sure, the British Empire was far from perfect, it was no different from any other collective human endeavour, self serving, but for all of it’s contradictions, it did tie, people from all across the globe to a common purpose, for which not a few were prepared to sacrifice their lives. When immigration, became a thing, after the Second World War, many of those initial travellers came to the UK on the back of that shared connection, that forged identity ( My first father-in-law to name but one).
No countries history is perfect, every single one will contain episodes of murder, destruction, greed, exploitation, and Britain, or the British Empire, was no different in that regard, but like all emergent countries it then set about trying to forge a common unifying identity, and not entirely without success. I truly despair, that supposedly clever people, with their own agendas, cannot recognise this simple truth. They seek to unite by destroying the very ties that bind, the very reason that drew people, from all over the world, here in the first place.
And no, I will not apologise, for thinking that the British Empire was not an entirely bad thing (I enjoy Flashman, far to much for that).
The British Empire ended the legal institution of slavery, a reality that had existed since the dawn of human history. That people don’t know this when they start banging on about the evils of the UK’s imperial past borders upon obscenely stupid.
I am with you Mr Lewis. The British Empire was far more ‘good’ than ‘bad’ and yes we both know that the standards expected were not always upheld and there were some very bad episodes. But we have left elements of our parliamentary system, justice, administration, ‘rights’, protection of the weak etc for many countries to use as building blocks for their own development. The Commonwealth of Nations is a sort of testament to that.
Disparaging Empire is a silly academic diversionary cul-de-sac. It’s a part of our history which we should look back on as a time when we gave practical foundational help to what eventually became emergent nations and states. Yes, it was based on increasing our wealth and clout as a nation but so many administrators in the late eighteenth and ninenteenth centuries held high principles based on fairness and good will and that meant improving the lot of the native inhabitants where we settled. Sometimes the system failed but these were exceptional instances to what was a straight-forward determination to govern fairly and equably.
King George III wrote an instruction to his newly appointed Governor of New South Wales, Captain Arthur Philip, to ‘treat the natives fairly’ and to ensure that they were not unnecessarily troubled.The humanity was central to the thinking and that is, overall, what we should be proud of.
That you chose this particular straw to grasp shows a remarkable ignorance of how Aborigines have been treated. I suppose we did treat them fairly, until what they wanted confilcted with what we wanted. Then we started shooting them.
I used to believe in the importance of ‘values’ for the post-Christian west. Now, when every corporation and organisation spouts its monolithic ‘values’ to close dissenters down, I see them as a trojan horse for DIE (Diversity/Inclusion/Equity). DIE is a totalising ideology which, up to a couple of years ago, I would have called un-British.
You can still call them un-British, Judy. I know, I call many progressive memes un-American, such as the blatant disregard for our First Amendment that is involved in de-platforming.
I really liked the Manchester Commonwealth Games when ‘Land of hope and glory’ was used as the English anthem. The music is classy and inspiring; the words do recollect what Britain has always represented. I heard the OBON song – dumbed down like a Eurovision entry: nul points!
You are dissing the creative efforts of UK schoolchildren – sacrilege! Whatever next? You’ll be criticising the NHS soon at this rate!
May be some one could have suggested a theme, something along the lines of tomorrow belonging to them perhaps
That’s a thought – we boomers sold that pup to the millennials, it might work with the subsequent generations…
That was satire, correct – or are you unaware of a German song popular during the Third Reich about “tomorrow belongs to me”?
That’s the thing about satire, you never know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDuHXTG3uyY
Also it was written by John Kander and Fred Ebb (2 of the chosen people) for the film Cabaret in 1972
I don’t understand why ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ can’t be used for this? It inspires hope, belonging and was written by a talented poet and not some random school children. Why are our standards so low? Maybe we should start with that.
Please see our new Relationships/PSHE/character education call it what you will programme for primary schools at http://www.alivetotheworld.com. (See comment below). I’ve always worked on the basis that’s it’s not enough to protest. One has to produce the good alternative and here it is. We even have an exercise getting children to colour in the Union Jack while understanding how it comes from the flags of Ss George, Andrew and Patrick – not forgetting our friends the Welsh whose colourful dragon all the children can colour in. Have a look at the website. So much more in there. Anything anyone can do to advertise it abroad greatly welcomed.
The website is so new I’ve given you the wrong name! It’s http://www.alivetotheworld.co.uk. That’s better.
Orwell was right about the British laughing at militaristic posturing, but he also saw the dangers of totalitarian newspeak and doublethink and wrote Nineteen Eighty Four to warn us. How ironic that plenty of young ‘educated’ Brits now act as if that novel is a guide to the conduct of public affairs.
“What British Values tended to mean, and this wasn’t exactly an accident, was liberal or progressive values, ideas that plenty of people of all backgrounds might feel completely alien to them. Beyond that the things they emphasise — tolerance and respect — are worthy, and something we’d like to teach our children, but they’re not particularly British.”
They’re not particularly Liberal or Progressive either. Wokeism is the latest iteration of Progress within Liberalism, and it’s the diametric opposite of tolerant and respectful.
The Swiss have an admirable level of civic nationalism, partly facilitated by having four official languages. They have one tune for their national hymn, but the lyrics in the different languages express different sentiments. The German lyrics are like advertising copy for the Swiss Tourist Board, whereas the French lyrics read like a version of our footy chant “. If you think you’re hard enough, come and take a chance . . .”. (My knowledge of Italian and Romansh are too limited for me to attempt translations.)
This demonstrates that, as long as the tune is the same, a country does not have to sing from the same hymn sheet.
Great idea. ‘God Save The Team’ does it for sport.
I have long thought that our national anthem should be updated to reflect what is mostly sung as our anthem, namely, “‘Ere We Go”.
For the benefit of non-British commenters the tune is “Stars And Stripes Forever”, and the anthem is very easy to remember, because it would have only four verses. In each verse the same word is repeated throughout, thus:
Optionally verses 2 and 3 could be left out.
It’s a winner.
Doesn’t work for Scotland unless you say Scot-ter-land but Wales is definitely short of syllables.
In fact, Wales has the best anthem by far but the words would be a problem for most people.
Those countries would drop verse 2.
On the matter of re-writing National Anthems, there is this version of the La Marseillaise:
We are the French, we run away
We live to surrender another day
That’s why all French military heroes
Are Women, or, have German Dads.
Not bad, but in the interests of scansion, how about amending the last three words to “are total zeros”? Just a thought.
It does scan better, but I think the line, as is, echoes both the American observation that due to D-Day, ‘Thousands of French women find out what it’s like to not only sleep with a winner, but one who doesn’t call her “Fraulein.” Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.’ and the English football chant of, “You’re S**t, but your birds are fit!”
I think you might have a sideline in writing for I’m Sorry I Haven’t a Clue.
Liberal democracy is just a reststop on the road from nationalism to nihilism.
Legutko again!
Which is curious since I am completely irreligious.
I thought the internationally recognised essential British value was fair play? Perhaps we should try and rescue it from the avalanche of BS in which it is drowning
The only society which can successfully make “values” the principle of unity is a totalitarian one – and it can only last for as long as subscription to the “values” is enforced. The moment that weakness kicks in, or fatigue, or doubt, the whole thing goes belly-up. Hence the fall of the Soviet Union. The US pretends it is constructed around a constitution, but that constitution is itself a manifestation of the real reason for US unity and identity, the WASP inheritance – now all but squandered – which means the US is heading for dissolution. National integrity relies on inherited culture which in turn depends on demographic stability. When the ties that bind are deeper than “values”, the bitterest rows are sustainable and deadly division kept at bay. After all, what are “values” at the end of the day but fancy, moralising propositions most likely at variance with real experience? And a proposition naturally excites its own opposition in any conscious mind. Any attempt to build a society on words is doomed, either to speedy collapse – “liberal”; or long, increasingly coercive and hysterical enforcement – Marxist / “Woke”.
Oh dear. The union flag held by the little girl in the picture is upside-down.
To be fair, it’s the person who stuck it on the stick who is to blame. Perhaps she knows hence she is scowling at it slightly
Three lions on a shirt
Plus another one on Scotland’s
Wales have got a DRAGON
And Northern Ireland’s is nice too
GB is a truly great country IMO with great people and great potential, and its not even the 1% that spoil it for everyone else its far less than that. There is no place in this country for that tiny %,. To carry on the 1% analogy they are the “filthy few” and include messrs Johnson, Corbin, Witty, Valance and Ferguson. Spain and Portugal are close in joint 2nd to GB in my exp.The best place for those who have no place here is probably somewhere where they have death squads and psychotic cartel bosses. That’ll learn them.
“One flesh, one bone, one true religion
One voice, one hope, one real decision
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa
Give me one vision, yeah”
If you sing this in the style of Dennis Waterman in Little Britain, I could get on board with this…
If non-european rulers derived their legitimacy from their value as allies of Britain and the Raj, maybe our modern island story should emphasise our value as vassals of the American empire. Just as Jodhpur ruled herself and provided some of the finest (Indian officered) troops in our imperial armies, so to do we provide submarines equally as advanced as America’s efforts. They have sailed side by side against Russian SSKs and SSNs. No other nation can provide that assistance. Nor can any other nation provide the signals intelligence that America depends on. There is no closer alliance in the intelligence world than UKUSA (even within the already tightly knit Five Eyes).
Zareer Masani spoke of an imperial esprit de corps in the armies of the empire. Maybe we should embrace our role as part of the American empire and make clear how important we are to them.
Sounds about right. Only I do not think the US same view of our significance, not at all
Plenty of Brits disparaged the princes, with the exception of the military. The British Army was desperate for Indian and Nepalese manpower, and were incredibly grateful for what they got. The admiration of the US military (which is very very real) is all we need. Ignore the silly democrats- they are no different to the complacent liberal imperialists of the late 19th century. Ungrateful and increasingly irrelevant.
Was the reference to the JRSST deeply ironic, or a mistake? It has been funding anti British activities for,decades. ( You never know.A Times journalist recently called Glenn Greenwall a conservative journalist).
We’re all fu**ed!
It may still be too early to assess whether the British Empire was a good thing. Like the Ottoman, Roman and earlier empires, it is the imprint left once the centre of power and the history have faded that counts. If positive, this is likely to include some kind of partly real or imagined concept or project that leaves former subjects wealthier in spirit than before. On that basis, despite their predations and brutalities, the Roman and British empires may be thought tilted towards the good, if one overlooks arbitrary borders drawn on maps that are a source of endless trouble. Not so the Ottoman empire or attempts to create copycat empires by other European nations and Japan. Now, what of Britain’s last colony – itself?
This type of article keeps coming along. People in England see that the problem with unity begins in Scotland and Wales. In fact, the problem begins in England – in conversation people struggle with the idea of Britishness not being the same as Englishness.
For total unity, the idea of Englishness has to disappear first because England is dominant in the arrangement but can’t be openly seen to be dominant.
Excellent point. I’ve never been able to pin down what “Englishness” is, so always defined myself as “British”, or “Northern”, or “Yorkshire”. Those identities always triggered a feeling of belonging for me much more than “English” did.
What would you say was “British” and what “English”?
I have always assumed we English are diffident about our nationality as we have had the larger influence over the British Isles in language, driving, law etc. I’m 3rd generation white immigrant and half-English but feel pretty incorporated. The English identity is maybe humour (Carry On films), self-depreciation, nostalgia (Downton Abbey), inventiveness and Christian humanism (abolished slavery in the 12th century) [off the top of my head]!
And this is the problem because everyone else doesn’t get a say in things.
You mean deprecation.
Haha. Yes perhaps too much self-depreciation has led us to this dearth of values
Yes, George, but maybe a malapropism that works?
The slavery abolition was mostly the Normans.
I have lived in Wales for 45 years but was born in the north of England. Before moving to Wales I worked in Scotland. I have never seen myself as English!!!
The north of England is vastly different from the south and is, in fact, nearer in humour and character to Wales – self-deprecating, harsh, corner of the mouth rather than full on. To me Englishness means living within a 100 mile radius of London – it means Londonness. Here is the problem, of course. About half of the British population live in this area and they see Englishness and Britishness as the same thing. This makes the far-flung places feel left out of the party. Hence the arrival of independence movements.
Not sure that’s true. I see myself as English because seeing myself as British sort of implies that I must accept something in common with and vicariously share some aspects of Scottishness. As I see Scotland* as a handouts-dependent complete and utter waste of space and a millstone, I don’t agree that they make up any part of my nationality at all.
I have the same reservation about Northern Ireland, where they bizarrely have a “marching season” to insult each other by commemorating sectarian battles of 300 years ago, and a related one about Welshness. As far as I can see there is no Welsh identity at all. When you think of Scotland you at least think of Ally’s Tartan Army and Trainspotting, but when you think of Wales, does anyone think of anything? Anything at all?
*that of today, not the Scotland of the past – where, if you drew up one list of Scottish inventions and discoveries, and another list of British inventions and discoveries, they’d be almost the same list
This is a good answer but you are confirming what I am saying. Effectively, that Englishness doesn’t have room for anything else.
I’m more about suggesting that being British and English is like being north American and American. There cannot be many Americans who consider Mexicans, Panamanians and Canadians their compatriates.
Well no, those are separate countries from the US. But as yet Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, and the Channels (did I miss anything?) all share the same country with England.
If you visit North Wales you will meet lovely people speaking an ancient language.one feels Wales.Its magical.
I am 100% behind Welsh independence but a language is no good for putting food on the table. This idea, that everything depends on a language is what is slowing us down. We need high-paid jobs:- battery producers, the tidal power unit in Swansea, something in the empty space of mid-Wales, technology instead of social science.
I worked in north Wales (well, it was a big chunk of my sales territory) as a graduate and I love the countryside. It is a fabulous place straight out of Tolkien. I am not sure that it adds up to an identity though.
Hi Chris, I was born within 100 miles of London and have never identified with it. I’ve been visiting the capital for 50 years and it progressively became less and less the capital of England and more like an international city of the kind you see in dystopian Sci-Fi films. The only things vaguely English are connected to the Monarchy. Now of course it’s become a political playground under the present Mayor.
I tried replying but for some reason it is ‘waiting for approval’. Time to withdraw from UnHerd, I think.
Howards End has an interesting debate about this. Little England it used to be called , disparagingly, in the days of the Empire. Belloc,and Chesterton portrayed it very well, as well as E.M. Forster. Germany went through a similar identity crisis during its unification under Bismarck.Highly influential writers wanted,Germany to be more like Switzerland. I must admit I find Englishness very easy to understand, based in its ethereally beautiful countryside, nostalgic anthems and bloody minded people.
No, that’s the problem, Englishness has been destroyed to make way for Britishness. The problem isn’t that Englishness is in the way, it’s that Englishness doesn’t exist. We are English, not British, and that is where our focus should be. Britain is a political union, that is all, and the English ties to Britain is what is weakening us because it’s us who are bearing the brunt of it. The Scottish or the Welsh don’t consider themselves British before their national identities so why do we?
You are just agreeing with me but using different words. The reason why Britishness does not work is that Englishness gets in the way. That’s what I said.
“We are Britain and we have one dream to unite all people in one Great Team”.
The road to Brexit was built and paved with such stuff…
Our diversity is our greatest strength … let’s embrace it!
I think the down ticks don’t appreciate irony. Another term I like is diversity and inclusion. Orwellian Newspeak.
Even better, let’s “celebrate” it!