Last night’s presidential debate was described as “the most consequential presidential debate in modern American history” so many times that no one bothered to ask just why that was so. For one thing, it could only be described as consequential once it had been proven to have profound consequences. But it hadn’t taken place yet. For another, it wasn’t clear what exactly the consequences were going to be. The country is not on the verge of civil war over the question of slavery, which was the urgent question that hung over the legendary senatorial debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas in 1858, attended by tens of thousands of people. Nor is the country seemingly teetering on the edge of a race war, as it was during the 1964 election between Lyndon Johnson and Barry Goldwater (Johnson, a weak debater with a giant lead in the polls, refused to debate Goldwater).
There has been a lot of talk about imminent civil war in America, and the internet sizzles with violent discord. It’s true that whichever side wins, the other side will feel either cheated or bereft, and feelings will run high. But neither candidate stands for anything ideologically galvanising. Kamala Harris tries to be nice. Donald Trump strives for an intimidating autocratic effect, but he lacks a cohesive vision, of the sort you might find in Mein Kampf or in Mussolini’s fiery speeches, a vision that would impel millions towards self-immolation for the sake of an idea. His formerly sharp demagogic instincts running on empty, Trump seemed at least to grasp the need to fill an urgent ideological need as he desperately sought last night to get the country worked up over what he claimed was undocumented immigrants eating the pets of American citizens in Springfield, Ohio. But immigrants feasting on cats and dogs would be a poor centrepiece of, say, imperialism or antisemitism; it does not an origin of totalitarianism make. Instead, the unhinged quality of Trump’s groundless claim might well have lost him the election.
Gravely serious matters were at stake at the debate: abortion, immigration, the rule of law. But America has adapted and will adapt to permutations in policy for the first two, and the country is too stable for Trump’s most virulent autocratic fantasies to become reality. No one as obsessed with the bottom financial line as Trump is would ever risk creating anything more than rhetorical chaos. Business people hate real chaos. And unlike the Chicken Littles of the liberal media, they know fantastical bluster when they see it.
Still, after the uncertain first few minutes of the debate, the mysterious air of profound consequentiality intensified. The expectation, of course, was that a live debate without an audience, with the microphone of whoever was not speaking turned off, would be some sort of freakish Zoom meeting to end all Zoom meetings. From pandemic isolation to general post-pandemic anomie, all organised under the strict control of the debate’s moderators. The first televised debate between Richard Nixon and John F. Kennedy had also taken place without an audience, but that was just at the dawn of television, and the faces on the screen had not yet detached themselves from actual social interactions. (The handsome Kennedy won the TV debate, they say, while Nixon prevailed among those who listened to it on the radio.) As Harris and Trump walked onto the stage, Harris striding forward to shake Trump’s hand, you settled in for just another pleasurable diversion, compliments of the ubiquitous and omnipotent Screen.
I was once at a party in Manhattan that began as a disjointed assemblage of people and then suddenly became a living organism. “Now it’s a party,” someone said to me. At the instant that Harris grasped Trump’s hand, the disconnected event started to become a debate. The note of “once upon a time” was struck. By asserting herself with a surprised Trump, who clearly had not wanted to shake her hand but had no choice but to do so once she extended it, Harris established control over her adversary. It was a fateful bookend to that fateful moment in the 2016 debate between Trump and Hillary Clinton, when Trump circled around Clinton, finally standing behind her and towering over her in order to establish his own authority and control.
The optics were remarkable. Americans don’t like short presidents; the country hasn’t had a short president in modern times. And here was Harris, short by, as it were, any measure, even with heels, deliberately making a physical contrast between herself and the much taller Trump. And, lo and behold, the bigness of offering her hand had the effect, in one stroke, of making Trump look small.
You realised then that what was at stake was not social, economic or foreign policy, not the fate of culture or the future of industrial relations. Never mind the question of whether America retains its preeminent power in the world. What was at stake last night was the question of whether the American personality still has power in its own land. Amid all the screens, and chips, and algorithms and AI, amid all the opioids and the psychiatric drugs, can the sheer force of being a particular person carry the day? And what sort of person, what type of personality, will it be?
Good God what sycophantic drivel. Harris continues to be the vacuous, weaselly opportunist she’s always been. If I wanted to subject myself to servile tripe like this, I’d watch MSNBC.
Even if what you say is true, Trump continues to be the sociopathic narcissist he has always been, but then everybody probably knew that already.
Doesn’t mean she won’t win, and win easily, bud.
Doesn’t mean she’ll win either.
Isn’t Tyler a journalist of sorts? Nate Silver has spent pretty much every day of the last few weeks upping Trump’s chances of winning until yesterday, when he said that Trump is likely to win the electoral college in a landslide…. the pollsters I follow have all said polling internals for Kamala in the swing states are massively bad. And in addition to pollsters, the same has been said by David Axelrod and Chauncy McClain (who is the head of the largest PAC support Kamala, Future Forward.) Quote: “The public polling is far rosier for Kamala than anything we have seen privately.”
People should check out some of the YouTube stuff from Richard Baris.
Better than delirious tremens from the convicted felon.
*delirium tremens
Wrong in form, wrong in substance
Interesting how TDS and ignorance of facts correlate.
Remarkably honest of you to admit it.
Bingo
It’s all rather simple actually. To gush over Kamala takes a raised consciousness. Not to gush over her takes mere consciousness.
He was convicted, and of course there was no political motivation in bringing the charges was there….
But …….What phelony was he charged with convicted of ?
And by whom….
This kind of context is crucial….
Mandella was a convicted terrorist ….
Solzhenitsyn got eight years for criticising the regime ….
On Which side of History to they now reside ?
I do think this kind of article is quite literally a waste of space. At most it should have been a one liner: Lee Siegel prefers Kamala Harris
There are so many people who have interesting things to say on all manner of topics. Short biographies of people we should know about – whose ideas speak to the moment we are in …Norbert Elias, Wendell Berry, Thomas Merton, Thomas Aquinas, Karl Polanyi, Eric Voegelin, Jane Jacobs, Margaret Mead….Alasdair Macintyre….Owen Barfield (The last Inkling) ….weird but pertinent t*t bits of intellectual and political history…..E.F. Schumacher was a German refugee rescued from internment by Maynard Keynes.. Schumpeter’s rendering of Marx’s idea of ‘creative destruction’ (we are heading into the maelstrom again with the 4th Industrial Revolution), Marcin Jakubowski’s open source ecology experiment in Missouri (google to be amazed and astounded https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/)…
How about an intelligent probing interview with Tommy Robinson – or let the man write for himself? Surely he’s unheard if anyone is?
Or how about Steven Lukes’ review of Language and Solitude, Ernest Gellner’s astonishing 1996 essay on philosopher Wittgenstein and anthropologist Malinowski..and the intellectual fall out from the collapse of the Hapsburg empire? The ontological/metaphysical tension he discerns runs through right wing populism in Europe, Brexit, the Trump take over of the DNC …..It’s about the most illuminating single essay I can think of with regard to our present conjuncture. Gellner discerned in these two intellectuals a fracture that runs across and through the habitual binaries of left and right wing politics, or as Steven Lukes wrote in the forward:
“ [These two antipodean] political standpoints … [are] alternative responses to a common historically-given predicament….forming
two poles of looking, not merely at knowledge, but at human life' and
the tension between them is one of the deepest and most pervasive themes in modern thought’. Thetwo poles' are given a variety of labels. One is the
atomic-universalist-individualist vision’, beginning with Descartes and Robinson Crusoe, typified by Hume and Kant, and reformulated by Ernst Mach and Bertrand Russell. It is variously identified with empiricism, rationalism and positivism, and with Gesellschaft, with economic markets and political liberalism, and bloodless cosmopolitanism. The other is thecommunal-cultural vision', the organic counter-picture, first lived and practised unreflectively, then articulated by Herder and by countless
romantic organicists’,nationalist populists' and
romantic rightists’, stressing totality, system, connectedness, particularism, cultural specificity, favouring Gemeinschaft, roots,closed, cosy' communities, Blut und Boden”
alignment’ of the elements within these poles and the tension between them was especially strong in the Habsburg lands, not least Poland and Austria, as the Empire reached its end, where `the confrontation of atomists and organicists. . . meshes in with the alliances and hatreds of daily and political life’.In the 20th century anglophone democracies, the tension between these two poles ran through the political spectrum with both ‘atomistic-universalist-individualist’ and ‘place-bound, communal-cultural’ elements weaving through both left and right, in both Christian and secular, socialist and conservative contexts. By contrast in central Europe... [writes Lukes 'the
Britain and other anglophone countries were stable Gellner argued because this fracture went across both sides of the political spectrum. There were atomic-universalists in the Labour Party and in the Conservative Party; Romantic organicists on both sides. In the Tory party, Roger Scruton’s Burkean communitarian organicism….sat along side Thatcher’s hyper-liberal ‘there is no such thing as society’
But that’s now changing. Immigration is tipping both America and Britain more towards the post-Hapsburg Central European situation. The left is atomic, individualist, universalist, top down bureaucratic, theoretical , abstract…..and authoritarian. All left brain…imposing grand plans for sustainability and justice. The Right is increasingly inchoate, reactionary, holistic, organic, contextual, nativist….right brain (channelling McGilchrist)
Sparks will surely fly, fires be set.
But all we get is ‘ Orange man bad’, ‘Progressive versus Fascist’, Left versus Right…..’Tommy Robinson bad’. The action is across those lines. And Lee Siegel wouldn’t know it how every much he read….because he doesn’t want to. Orange man bad!!!
In short there is SO MUCH out there worthy of our attention, so many holes to fill in our general knowledge, so much possibility for a magazine that positions itself between the ivory tower and on-the ground political analysis and commentary. Why do we get Terry Eagleton and not Steven Lukes? Why academic pundits, rather than intellectuals sensitive to paradox? Why MSM pundits pushing a line that we got wall to wall last night on the box? And this morning over cornflakes, for those who sill get actual papers…. WHY WASTE SPACE WITH THIS IDEOLOGICAL FLUFF
My God, man, I have no words. And by the way, I wish you had fewer.
It’s a list of topics Gregory all much more relevant and pertinent to our present situation than ‘LS loves Kamala and hates trump’
much better than delirious tremens from a convicted felon
I didn’t know BIden was a convicted criminal.
I thought him wearing a Trump hat at that gathering for September 11th was amusing, and perhaps a pointed rebuff to the Cackling Commie Cameltoe that he, Biden, HATES HER.
Good Lord. Did you actually watch the debate? Harris wiped the floor with Trump.
And I’m British, and therefore strictly neutral in American politics.
She lied about killing babies after failed abortions. CDC figures show 143 in one year, and say, probably underestimation. She and the moderators lied about the impact of Haitian immigrants in Springfield. She lied about gun buy back. She lied about fracking…. She lied about the Charlottesville comment….. and all these lies are gradually being exposed on social media. I think you’ll find that her supposed victory turns out to be hollow and pyrrhic within a few weeks. But I suspect that you are more comfortable with her lies.
What debate did you watch?
Thanks for taking the time to read this for me. I couldn’t bring myself to read an article with such a dumb title.
What a gross over-intellectualisation of “vibes”. Unsurprising take on a candidate who only disclosed her campaign policies a couple days ago.
6K for you. 50K for you. a baby seat in every car.. and a very expensie chicken in every pot
I think it was 6K to have another baby and 50K if you start a small business. I am unclear how that is a “plan” for America.
BTW, we have no idea who actually qualifies for the free money.
Better than not having a policy at all like her opponent.
Actually no. Sometimes not having a policy at all is better than having a really, really bad policy.
Sort of like leaving comments…
She literally has had 3 years as vp and has zero accomplishments. What accomplishments did she speak about? None. She just likes nagging around powerful men and doing nothing.
Harris will be a disaster for western democracies, such as still exist.
“the mysterious air of profound consequentiality intensified.”
Does UnHerd have actual editors? Do these ‘editors’ read the copy?
Asking for a friend.
I keep asking too. It seems like one of those questions that will never be answered.
They’ve all graduated from the Kamala Harris School of Word Salad.
Î
This
Was that line written by Kamala? I can see it proceeding thus: “the mysterious air of profound consequentiality intensified, unburdened by what has been, but burdened by what is to come.”
There’s great significance to the utterance of word salad.
Doubly weird line considering the author’s deft deconstruction of all the “consequential debate” rhetoric right at the start!
If an election can be won by the sociology of a handshake, then we are in a bad place.
Cue Mark Latham vs John Howard “the handshake” circa 2004
That handshake made no difference at all.
Oh yes it did. It set the tone right out of the gate. Trump didn’t want to shake Kamala’s hand but he had to. She was the alpha female.
We are. Never in history have we had two weaker candidates. The clearest guidance can only come from the fact that whomever is running the country is failing. But that doesn’t mean a solution is at hand.
The most pertinent question about our future is “Will America fall to Marxism, Islam, economic collapse, or inundation by mass migration?” Not who will preside. Democrat leadership favours Marxism and inundation, and neither party has the resolve to deal with the others.
I find these debates to be so typical of the worst aspects of American culture. That a nation would feel impelled to vote one way or the other on the basis of these fake performances is hard to believe. And if they don’t then why the debate?
I’m sure the debate (or any similar debate) will decide the vote of only a few people, but in a tight election such as this, that may be enough.
Well you may be right, in the swing states, and that’s enough I guess.
Debates have not changed a race for President in decades.
I take it you are discounting as a debate the meeting of Trump and the incumbent? That changed this race beyond belief.
Incorrect! The debate before last caused a sitting President to pull out of the race!
I can’t imagine anybody being wrong-er than Lee Siegel. I believe Christopher Hitchens made the observation that nobody pays for polls to be conducted who doesn’t already know the answer they want. Lee Siegel, being a partisan hack who lives in the Mecca of progressive hacks – Montclair, New Jersey – knows the result he wants (i.e. a Harris victory) and wants to actualize that outcome by writing slop like this. I don’t know anybody who doesn’t know who they’re going to vote for at this point, less than two months before the election. There’s no one who was going to vote for Trump that now won’t because he said Haitian immigrants are eating dogs in Springfield, Ohio. There are enough of us in blue states like New Jersey who’ve seen our hometowns destroyed by Democrats who’ve created the conditions for once-peaceful, quiet, and crime-free communities to be ruined by moving in people who were not socialized to live in those communities. Lee Siegel lives in one of the richest, safest, and whitest communities in the state along with other progressive bullshit artists like Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart. The consequences of progressive policies don’t touch them and that’s how they like it. Nobody who doesn’t have the cash to escape the effects of progressive policies should vote for Harris, or any Democrat, full stop.
Lots of words here – let’s see. It amazes me how Trump supporters just can’t see what a weak candidate he is and has always been. No strategy or indeed much of an ideology, plus he is petty and vindictive and always falling out with people on his own supposed side. He could have said something nice about Joe Biden once the latter had withdrawn from the presidential race. Of course not very sincere but might have shown him to be a bigger person. But of course not, it had to be some nasty, and worse now completely irrelevant comment.
Trump hasn’t actually won any election on the basis of the popular vote, but you would think he was an electoral genius listen to some of the people on here.
Oh, I’m not trying to persuade anybody to vote for Trump. I’m trying to persuade them not to vote for Democrats. If that means voting for Trump, which it does, then that’s what I’d prefer people to do. See, while Trump may be personally unpredictable, Democrats are totally predictable and what they’re going to do is destroy anything they touch.
She didn’t win the debate hands down but she won the debate and she will win the Presidency too. Trump had his chances and he took some of them but not enough of them. Harris was uncannily well prepared or a little birdie gave her the questions.
She most definitely won’t, and Taylor Swift’s support for Kaaammmaaallla won’t make a jot of difference.
This link has been appearing on various websites here in the US –
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nova-audioearrings/audio-earrings-earphones-made-earrings
I don’t think she won by much, if at all – but a draw is good for her given that she is something of an unknown quantity.
From the clips I’ve seen Harris stood her ground, she didn’t collapse, and from that she didn’t lose. That will firm up her support. Trump is starting to come over as bitter, where once his verbal punches were positive and forward looking. His supporters wanted him to do better.
The Democrats remain better co-ordinated and stage-managed as the Taylor Swift timing shows – so more solidifying the Harris vote. There is a sense of rumbling attrition about the whole thing where the side with most resources, rather than the better candidate, will win.
Why am I getting the sense of déjà vu from the aftermath of the Brexit debates? The half of the country who will vote for Trump are not going to care that he came over as bitter, because they’re bitter too – about the state of their country. Trump is a totally known quantity. The people who like Trump are not going to change their minds, ditto the people who don’t like Trump. Harris is secondary – she could have a big ‘L’ for Lemon imprinted on her forehead, and the people who don’t want Trump will still vote for her – because they don’t want Trump. I doubt anyone will be persuaded one way or the other by the debate, it’s all so partisan.
Fwiw, I think the US election stands exactly where it did before Harris replaced Biden, it will be close, and it will be Trump by a small margin.
Well your transatlantic weigh-in isn’t worth much, as I think you might yourself acknowledge, given your fairmindedness on most topics. Neither is my “homegrown” opinion—the sensible, consensus view—that Kamala Harris is now far likelier to win than before the debate.
Of course some will be persuaded. Enough to sway the result? Probably. Low information and apathetic voters will turn out in greater numbers, and not for the candidate frothing at the mouth about dog-eating invaders.
Just watch what Trump says over the next 72 hours or so, in the wake of his clear, televised defeat. Then we can revisit our respective predictions in about 2 months.
I say will Harris win by an unexpectedly large margin: 5-plus percentage points, with about 300 electors. Maybe a bit closer, but not a squeaker, I don’t think. Nor will Trump win in his follow-up efforts to invalidate another election. He will then be relegated to the internet swamp and to increasingly pathetic rallies from which he will try to beg money and sell enough loser-merch to stay free and avoid his seventh bankruptcy.
We’ll see though.
I agree my opinion isn’t worth anything, if it was I wouldn’t be pontificating BTL. But I’m curious what type of person you think will change their mind. “Low information and apathetic voters” will remain low information and apathetic because they are, um, low information and apathetic voters – sudden zeal about the debate is unlikely and therefore cannot possibly make them more likely to switch or even vote. I find difficultly thinking of someone who will go to themselves “ooh I was undecided but now I’m gonna go for Harris because of what Trump and Harris said *in this debate* and I’m gonna *completely ignore* everything they have ever said before”. The kind of points which change minds (in both directions) are things which affect people directly – for example one of them switching position on say abortion or tax. But neither of them did so I expect no change. You and I and others reading and commenting here are unnaturally interested in politics and culture, but most people are not like that. Most people will have a passing interest in the debate, nothing changes and they move on, um, unmoved.
Of course zero-information and completely incurious voters won’t be moved, nor be any likelier to vote. But there are degrees of disinterest that you seem determined to ignore. Some mostly apathetic and usually uninvolved registered voters will have tuned in to this show: Uppity Minority vs. Silver Spoon Blowhard, than for the previous episode: Two Old Men on a Stage.
And that’s putting aside the small but non-trivial group of undecideds who do pay some attention and/or care a bit about this stuff.
I actually think your opinions carry some rhetorical weight here—informed and intelligent as they are—though it would be silly to say that BTL takes “matter” in some pivotal sense. You sometimes adopt absolute stances such as “the debate will change NO votes!” or (more than once on previous boards) “technological advances GUARANTEE imminent human doom”. Why not let a little uncertainty into your vaunted certitudes?
Must be the grip of my Descartian determinism, tightening by the day.
My reply has been withheld for some unknown reason.
Yes, thre is a serious problem with the moderation system used by UnHerd. Comments are removed on an arbitrary basis, only to be restored after quite a long hiatus (in my case up to 17 hours), which makes them pointless.
I have had a long correspondence with UnHerd Support and have written a couple of times to Freddie Sayers, to no avail.
As I find this practice highly disrespectful, I am not renewing my annual subscrition which expires in May.
I would suggest that, whenever your comment is removed, you write to UnHerd Support and/or Fr. Sayers. Maybe when more people express their disappointment, the decision-makers in UnHerd will finally reconsider their moderation policy.
(Btw, there is no such a problem with any one of the numerous other online media outlets to which I am a apying or non-paying subscriber. It is only UnHerd, of all places, that has opted for such a substandard moderation model.)
I’m beginning to feel the same way, Uherd is a bit of a ratty site. But we have to assume that we who comment are a small minority of total subscriptions,
Even if we are a minority, still, we need to be respected.
The more so that UnHerd is interested in having as many comments and votes as possible, because engagement statistics is important for them to show to advertisers and other financing sources that there’s an interest in this publication. Every click counts.
And, as I said, I have never experienced such problems with any other publication. Nor with any social media , for that matter (because the comments section is quasi social media ).
I share your frustration and have also written to support about the issue several times. While I always receive a courteous reply, they provide no real explanations.
I am now convinced that comments can be “voted off the island” for unpopularity alone. Usually not permanently, but often for some multiple of 6 hours up to 18–or even for 2 to 3 days. Typically, the comments then post with a time stamp that suggests they were posted all along. One’s ability to comment at all can also be disabled for many days by herd disapproval; not for any violation of policy or civility, but rather the prejudicial flags of individual subscribers or for sheer downvotes—a bad practice.
Like you, I also had a similar suspicion about the cause for the removal of comments. Mine was that some people abused the flagging system, to make disappear comments not to their liking. This was especally plausible because UnHerd allows access to comments to all and sundry: everyone can vote and reply (they cannot post, but replies can be used ad lib, which is basically the same as posting).
I received official assurances from UnHerd Support that this was highly unlikely and that, most probably, this was just the automatic moderation removing comments before they were checked by a human.
Even so, the situation is unacceptable and absolutely shameful for UnHerd. Let alone that UnHerd wants to position itself as a high-quality, niche media outlet, while their moderation system performance is way below any other moderation system I have ever encountered.
The fact itself that nothing changes and, as you say, you receive a polite, but extremely vague reply also speaks volumes in itself.
I have already made the firm decision not to renew my subscription and, judging by other comments, I am just one of the many who are, like me, highly demotivated to continue paying to UnHerd.
Sic transit and so on… It used to be a good publication, but now both in terms of the content and the customer experience they are below par..
Hmm, you sound so very confident, that over this side of the pond we might wonder if you KNOW the result already?.
Nah, just confident enough in the possibility of influence to get into a civil disagreement with Mr. Kotak when he when wears his absolute-determinist hat.
Competing predictions and more or less informed opinions of next to zero consequence. Again, we’ll see in about two months.
Maybe.
However, if you follow the polls, Trump had huge lead over Biden and now it is very close.
Kamala replacing Biden increased chances of Democrats victory.
I’m surprised, I mean one would have thought that after all that Lawfare against him and all the rigged trials that the mm from death from a bullet would have made him a much more mellow individual 😉
another activist journalist. never mind. I’ll wait until the election results are publicly communicated, to decide to make my final exit in case of a win of the authoritarian deep state.
A journalist writing for UnHerd should maintain an unbiased perspective. I don’t want to read a typical biased article that I can read in the MSM.
Indeed. They need to kick this ideological boot licker to the curb
The authoritarian deep state always wins.
Is your “final exit” death?
I don’t think he really wants it anymore, someone else will have to save that country- and the Ukraine.
He’s aged too much anyway. I was all for DeSantis to lead the conservative movement. As VP, Haley was the right neocon to go to Moscow and kiev, like Nixon going to China.
Trump wants power but none of the responsibility nor the work that requires, he only care about being in the spotlight and that’s it, its how he builds up his fragile self-esteem. Trump doesn’t care about policies or ideas, and such things only serve his need to be visible. If he loses he can plays the underdog, if he goes to prison he can play the victim(he is to a extent). All the previous stuff said works towards his goal and the last thing he wants is to be ignored, which he find existentially terrifying because without the external sources of self-esteem to distract himself, his bottomless fathoms of self-loathing that he has suppressed will come to the surface and haunt him. Its all disappointing, Trump could have gone down in history as a great president but chose not do so despite so many opportunities presented to him. But his petty, vain, impulsive and short sighted nature would not allow that and he will be at best a mediocre president.
All of which may be true, which makes it extra terrifying that he’s the last defense between us & the collapse of the west into communism.
I like Hayley and she would have made a good VP. But currently the Don is the lesser of two evils and white America is finished if Harris becomes President.
Perhaps he’s been thinking of just how many more Lawfare cases he can afford, President or not, AND that perhaps next time, the shooter will be a pro with a better weapon?
DeSantis? He is short a personality, some charisma, and three inches of height (and the lifts in his boots aren’t helping).
Kamala made Trump seem small in this debate…but can she do the same with the likes of Putin?
If there was ever an example of “optimism born out of desperation”, then this article is it.
How can it be that the office of POTUS is being contested by an incoherent orange vulgarian and Kween Kamala of Word Saladville?
God help the US.
I doubt this debate was particularly consequential.
I thought Trump’s take on Biden’s asinine policies was essentially accurate, if slightly exaggerated, and that Harris simply repeated worn out, left wing tropes like the “very fine people” canard. She has no plans for the country other than to pile on more public debt, waste more money, and pass ruinous policies.
Only Trump was “fact checked” – and it is essentially legal to let a born alive infant die in New York State – but either way, this debate didn’t change any minds.
How can you be so sure the debate didn’t change minds?
Because, if polls are correct, half of the country wants Trump and the other anyone but Trump.
So Kamala, thanks to cognitive decline of Biden, is that alternative.
God help us all IF the Asov crowd start using Western hi-tech missiles to strike deep into Russia. Putin isn’t wrong, the troops he is fighting are generally Ukrainian, but they are basically NATO mercenaries. It won’t end well IF we don’t stop escalating it AND it seems neither candidate is as committed to that as I’d like. Still, with luck I’ll freeze to death in the UK this winter and if the nukes start hitting the UK, I’ll already be ashes.
So the war has absolutely nothing to do with Russia invading a neighbouring sovereign state it recognised in 1991? It is also previously invaded on a lesser scale in 2014.
Unfortunately all too many people on the Right on this forum are complete nut jobs, and as deeply unpatriotic as the far Left can be
It has everything to do with Russia invading a sovereign country, but unless you think there’s a realistic possibility that the Ukrainian flag will be flying over the Kremlin, you might wish to consider an alternative: negotiate an end to the war and save the lives of untold thousands who are dying needlessly in a war no side seems capable of winning.
I am no great fan of Russia, nor of the would be military conqueror who’s installed himself as a Czar.
But it’s also true that we refused to help Russia after the USSR fell apart, in any real way, and to some degree the messes that ensued, from the 90s up until today, are a result of our own bungling.
We essentially allowed Russian assets to be stripped mined by very shady characters, and missed an enormous opportunity to turn an enemy into a friend.
We now have to tangle with an aggressive, nuclear armed adversary, because of that bungling, or be forced to watch eastern Europe fall.
I cancelled my subscription to Unherd about a month ago and I keep getting reminders why saving myself the money was a good idea. Thanks for another one
If you read UnHerd on a regular basis then you must be aware of the wide range of opinions on offer. Which is sometimes challenging but refreshing compared to most of the rest of the media. In fact I thought that was the whole point of UnHerd. Echo chambers of the right are just as bad as echo chambers of the left.
It’s amazing to me that so many of the commenters here are so patriotic and care so much about the country, only to immediately throw in the towel when they are “forced” to read every article here. I saw some other commenter saying they were going to move to Canada if Harris wins, which is hilarious on too many levels. I still hope Trump wins, even though he is doing every single thing in his power to lose this election, but if Harris wins I’ll do my best to support my country and continue voting and trying to steer this country in what I feel is the “right” direction.
Yes, quit any website that has articles with both viewpoints, retreat further into smaller and smaller echo chambers so you don’t have to read things that you don’t agree with. That’ll solve it.
I would strongly support being acquainted with a wide range of opinions, but I want these opinions to be presented in an intelligent manner. Which is not the case with this article, sadly.
I am subscribed to many other publications (and not only in English) and I do read articles that run counter to my political veiws. If they make a good case, I might not agree with them, but will give it to them that they make some valid points. Or will just take a mental note of the arguments in such articles.
But, once again, I want to read something more or less decent on an intellectual level.
What you and McLovin seem to be missing here is that we have come to UnHerd precisely because we don’t have to read the sort of articles that are freely available on CNN, WaPo, MSNBC, etc. It is called “UnHerd” after all. The herd reporting is everywhere else—why pay for it here?
It’s hard to believe you’re a Trump follower because you sound rather intelligent.
It’s obvious as to why you’re a progressive because everything you post is stupid & nasty.
Nobody ever said they would move to Canada if Harris wins! That would be like moving to London because house prices were too expensive in Wigan.
Yeah, a line that goes “If Harris gets in, the US will move too far to the Left, so I will move to Trudeau’s Canada” doesn’t sound particularly sensible.
So many Right Wingers are abject snowflakes when push comes to shove
I think you’ve hit a particular nail on the head here!
There’s very little difference between the woke left and online right
Exactly.
Goodbye.
What a bunch of sycophant baloney. Thanks UnHerd for another article by Lee Siegel:“Neither candidate stands for something ideologically galvanising. Kamala tries to be nice… Trump strives for intimidating autocratic effect “
Nice Kamala has avoided up to now any hard hitting interviews except one prerecorded friendly one hour CNN promotion for Kamala with a 28 minutes interview attached to it. “Her team” only published a day before the debate her half baked policies. The author basically implies , that this one debate, will lead her to win this year’s November Election? It might have persuaded some voters, who already were heavily leaning towards “nice” Kamala, but “sealed her victory”?
Meanwhile, Nate Silver (for some reason a highly followed “pollster” who does nothing but feed everyone else’s polls into a regression analysis) declared yesterday- after days and days of increasing Trump’s likelihood of winning the electoral college, said that Trump would win in an electoral landslide. The fact is that swing state voters are buying what Commie La is selling.
She’s a nothing burger
Did you actually watch the debate? Trump came across as a nut case.
Yes, he did, but “Trump as nut case” is a known. It is hard to imagine many people watching the debate and saying “Gee, Trump is a nut case”. At best, it might be “Gee, Trump is a bit more of a nut case than he was a year ago”.
It’s not ususally difficult to goad a bellicose old narcissist, but in the USA this is a superpower that makes you the most powerful person in the world.
Or the Wizard of Oz – apparently the most powerful person in the world The Taliban didn’t crumble, now they have one of the best US Equipped armies on the planet.
Approaching the debate, I noted pro-Trump commentators advising him to stick to policy and steer away from personal attacks and nonsensical diatribes. Alas, Donald Trump is who he is. If there is a civil war after the next election, it will be within the Republican Party.
Kamala is no better today than she was yesterday, but it sounds like she still showed why she is the better candidate.
This was supposed to be Trumps particular strength, his super-power: Showmanship, Reality TV, One-on-one domination games. But Kamala won, because she had discipline, she prepared, she had a team behind her, and she made use of their input. Trump had none of that, but worse: he lost because he was ridiculously easy to manipulate – just jab his ego. If Kamala can do it, so can others.
It is pretty clear who would do better if they had to face up to Putin – and it is sure not Trump.
So you forgot the absence of new wars, involving Putin or otherwise, during Trump’s administration.
Trump has already faced up to Putin.. no wars.. Putin under control.. Putin is sitting at home rooting for Kamel. guess why
Agreed. And Kamala has significantly more camera-presence than Hilary did. (Why are female authors and candidates still so often referred to by their first names? So be it—seems fitting here).
Donald has lost it—not conclusively but he’s sinking—and Kamala won the night too.
Of course Trump’s pal Viktor still endorses him.
I’m not sure about that. I always thought Hillary’s greatest liability was that she’s hard to look at. I feel the same way about Harris. Her neck is creepy. I feel a little bad for saying that. She was quite attractive as a young woman but she too has become someone who is hard to look at. It’s very odd. She’s not ugly but she’s sort of repellent. Her voice is pretty awful too. I’m sensitive to that kind of thing though. Trump has lost whatever it was he had. That’s another story.
While I appreciate your candor it’s not the presidents job, male or female, to appease your visual and auditory sensitivities. Good Lord!
I agree that Kamala has aged, but quite well for a woman of 60. From a vocal standpoint RFK Jr. was about the worst candidate ever—putting aside his other “quitks”. Only 1990s non-contender Paul Tsongas was comparably odd.
So I also confess that voice and appearance, along with personality, are a factor in my assessment of a candidate for the most prominent, public job in the world. But how young and hot does a woman leader have to be to keep you comfortably riveted?
In no way did I imply that a female candidate should be young and hot. What sort of mangled logic led you to such a silly statement, Mack? Margaret Thatcher was perfectly asexual and totally compelling as a politician.
I’m just pointing out that both Hillary and Harris are conspicuously uncomely. Have you ever met a beautiful woman who was unattractive? Of course you have. What makes someone repellent often has nothing to do with their physical attributes. Both Hillary and Harris have a reputation for being pretty awful people. It may be that whatever is rotten at their essence is palpable in their outward appearance to people sensitive to that kind of thing. If you find Harris attractive, my suspicion is it’s because you’d like her to win. The neck flaps are fine with you. I find them both so repugnant because I’d like them both to lose.
At least you admit your true sponsoring motivations. It’s not my own logic that led to the challenge that has provoked you so much Jones, but your own emphasis on the natural physical decline of a woman who is quite good-looking for age, to most eyes.
Anyone who doesn’t find Donald Trump repugnant in character and current physical appearance seems a suspicious judge of both looks and character to me.
How old were you during Thatcher’s rule, and are you sure you’d like her now if you had to listen to and look at her in all her steely, plain bluster?
I’m sure that made sense in your head.
What sort of disability of logic must one possess to infer from my repulsion at Kamala Harris’s neck flaps that I don’t find Trump repugnant? How did you get your shoes on the right feet this morning?
Well now, it looks like the mention of Thatcher brought out the fragile, repressed Leftist light in the knickers (isn’t that what ya’ll call britches?) I had no idea you were fragile. I’m sorry for knocking you around now.
Boo dude. Attempting any worthwhile or vaguely good faith exchange with you is indeed a Sisyphean task. But character and attitude still get revealed while you’re rolling your boulder up the mythical hill, even with a defeatist worldview or whatever the heck got into your shorts.
Needless and useless hostility from ya big fella. But that seems to be the way you put on your trousers. And I’m American, smarty pants.
I’m glad we can agree on Trump’s repugnance, though he seems to get some sort of a comparative pass with you, in the voting booth at least. I didn’t directly charge you with being fond of Trump, just threw it out there in a general way, and got your delightful reaction.
So you didn’t even live through the Thatcher years, at least not in Britain, yet you celebrate her. Reagan too?
Incidentally, I have some respect for both so I’m not merely baiting you, but wondering if you can just engage a bit more honestly and drop the dull edgelord schtick. Probably not eh.
*One last thing: You’re of course entitled to find the better than average aging of a 60-year-old woman creepy or her voice grating (I partly agree there) but I don’t know why you chose to chime in in response to my mention of her “stage presence” vs. Hilary’s—unless you were just psyched to dunk on one of the few comment threads that dissented from the herd norm here. (If so, well done). We’re not talking about a beauty pageant stage.
I’ll be serious for a second. I only have a few friends (who aren’t my brothers) that are capable of removing themselves emotionally from political discussions. So I’ll concede that it’s rare. But the one thing they all have in common is they don’t say stupid sh** like “you celebrate [Thatcher.] Reagan too?” As if a person is rendered unserious once he has expressed admiration for the policies of Thatcher or Reagan, which I haven’t done. The politician doesn’t matter. It could be Bernie Sanders. The fallacy is the same. Not only have you not understood what I’ve said, you’ve not understood it preemptively and in the strangest and most self-serving manner. That’s a problem, Aj Mac. For both of us. But mostly for you.
You accuse me of assumptions I haven’t made and conclusions I haven’t drawn. I was trying to get you to explain why you like a woman politician, or just about anything at all, for more than superficial reasons.
What are you even in favor of man?
Were you alive during Thatcher’s term(s) as prime minister? That’s not meant to be a litmus test—you and I can both have valid opinions on Abraham’s Lincoln and Andrew Jackson too—but a nod toward the dangers of easy nostalgia. The Golden Age is never the present age. You say nothing about what supposedly makes Thatcher “totally compelling” for you. Zero.
A person is rendered unserious, at least for the time being, when they post insults and teenage-level shots at someone’s appearance or masculinity. I’m not weak, nor as repressed as you suggest. Are you some polished Greek god and glorious free spirit?
If you want a less emotional discourse, don’t troll and insult people just to pass the time, soothe your own ego, or whatever. I really don’t think you’re as objective and logical as you think.
I don’t pretend to have no emotional investment in many topics. I don’t think machine-like detachment should even be the goal in most social and political affairs. Still, I’m far from dumb (not saying you differ there) and really don’t think the place I’m coming from is all that strange or self-serving. (Then again: Who does when they’re confronted?).
Shutting out emotion and passion can lead to hyper-rationality and a monstrous sense of self-importance, things I guess neither of us are total lifelong strangers to. But I can snap out of it; hope you can too. I used to be a lot worse when I was your age (24?).
I genuinely hope you ain’t north of 35 yet. You’re sharp enough and make some good contributions. Have a good weekend.
What nonsense. The moderators clearly showed their colours and they were definitely Democratic.
Yes, the fact-checked Trump 5 times (‘no dogs were eaten in Ohio, ‘although in our local Ohio news it was reported as truth) and let Kamal skate on her blatant untruths.
And this author lost me at:
Donald Trump strives for an intimidating autocratic effect, but he lacks a cohesive vision, of the sort you might find in Mein Kampf or in Mussolini’s fiery speeches, a vision that would impel millions towards self-immolation for the sake of an idea.
How can one take this fool seriously?
Having said all that, I thought Kamala came off as in control of herself, although her answers were vacuous, they were semi-coherent, unlike her normal impromptu word salads. So she gained.
Trump was more in command of the facts, but left a lot of potential info on the cutting room floor – why not state that
inflation was 1.5% when I left office and it rocketed to 9% after YOU cast the deciding votes for two budget-busting bills – YOU are responsible for inflation and the high prices Americans are facing today.
IF immolation is the aim, then the Democrats are your man/woman/binary/whatever you want to be. Their insane raising of the stakes in the Ukraine will bring immolation if they aren’t careful AND careful they are NOT.
Politics, said Lenin, is Kto-Kvo, “Who-Whom”
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Wow! No comments
I don’t like it, but it’s true, what you said. Trump ignited the flame of his own pyre. If he had made a coherent story out of the border, drugs, crime it would have been different. But he couldn’t make a story of them despite the listeners already knowing the plot.
Trump was never popular with the public, only with his coterie. They would accept no other candidate, almost any one of which could have beaten whomever the Democrats ran. It is they who will have elected Harris and they who will deny it.
But he couldn’t make a story of them despite the listeners already knowing the plot.
That’s a great way to phrase it. Also, there was the issue of troops in conflict and he whiffed. Within the last few weeks it was announced Americans were involved fighting ISIS in Iraq (I believe it was Iraq). If I knew that and was surprised to hear Harris make her false claim, I’m sure he was.
Apparently you don’t know much about this country. Trump was a beloved and respected person here… until he declared as a Republican for the office of President.n Then the left vilified him and the media followed suit.
Someone had to do it.
The MAGAMorons, stupid, ignorant, requiring authoritarians, have put the US in this position. They are to blame.
Forgive me for pointing out, anyone who thinks the BLM torching US Cities and killing people for months on end was a ‘mostly peaceful protest” and that the US equivalent of the Monster Raving Looney Party day out in the Capitol was an insurrection has about as much credibility as Biden has cognitive powers. It wasn’t MAGA that has us on the brink of WW3.
Who was president during those often violent protests?
I disagree, the debate was SO biased then many may have lost hope, happy that Trump appeared not as in control as usual but devastated that the overtly partisan – and lying – moderators, and the 100% one-sided fact checking, and the leading questions and answer 100% anti-Trump shite-fest. ABC were a laughing stock before, now they’re a basket case.
I bet most tuned in to see if this time the shooter wouldn’t miss. 😉
Another article of praise for Kamala Harris, with unquestioning approval for her supposedly debate winning gestures. No mention of her saccharine smile when she spoke about abortion. To me, it reflected all the sensitivity and humanity of an Auschwitz guard. I don’t understand how anyone cannot see through her moral vacuity. Trump’s crazier statements seem harmless by comparison.
The difference between these two people is that Trump, although he’s a lunatic, is essentially right in his instincts and Harris, a faker and political opportunist, is essentially wrong in hers. Fact-checking is beside the point. Much will be made of Trump saying Haitians are eating dogs in Springfield, Ohio, but he’s addressing an obvious problem. Why are there now so many Haitians in Springfield, Ohio, that they make up a third of the population? Harris isn’t going to address that issue. She’s got an ideology that regards the residents of Springfield, Ohio, as bigoted morons whose community should be destroyed in the name of the kind of unscrupulous “progress” Harris and her ilk peddle. Will Trump stem the tide? I doubt it unless he can dismantle the permanent, unelected bureaucratic state which includes all the various agencies and NGOs that really run the country. But at least he names the problem.
exactly. why are there so many Haitians in Springfield , Ohio? What sort of leaders allow this to happen.. oh wait …
More sense in that post than the article.
“Why are there now so many Haitians in Springfield, Ohio, that they make up a third of the population?” An abundant supply of cats and dogs?
Devastating.
Really?!
Not sure why anyone would.choose Harris over Trump.
One hates America and western liberal Democracy in favour of Communism.
The other, whether an attractive human or not, represents popular sentiment and a continuation of liberty.
Not sure why anyone would.choose Harris over Trump.
Such people are not choosing Harris; they are voting against Trump.
Voting against or abstaining worked REALLY well in the UK GE we held less than 3 months ago. It seems like a lifetime, but then given the release of all those criminals perhaps now 3 months is life?
Yes Alex, in much the same way that Britons did not choose the Labour Party, but voted against the Conservatives.
He doesn’t need to be attractive but I assume that as a serial adulterer he lies to his family so I think it is even safer to assume he would like to me who he has never met.
What does KH believe that makes her a communist?
her father is a marxist so even if the sins of the father are not visited upon the child. she is steeped in it.. where did she come from? and how did she get there. I live in CA. ask us what we know about serial adulterers in our goverment
I don’t believe what my father believes I have a mind of my own. I suspect Kamala does also.
Harris had an affair with a very powerful (married) man in California early in her career who had a significant impact on the advancement of her career. That makes her both an adultress and a gold digger.
Trump has had multiple affairs, ripped off thousands of hard working businesses with various bankruptcies and is only where he is thanks to Daddy’s money. Is that any better?
“Adultress”? Seriously? I’ve stepped through a time warp, right, and it’s the late 19th Century?
Adultrex?
This line of rationalization is typically from someone who voted for Clinton.
I am not sure why you think Harris is a communist?
As a serial adulterer, Trump probably lies to his family. If so, he will almost certainly lie to those he has never met, that is the electorate.
Can you name a politician who doesn’t or hasn’t or wouldn’t lie if they felt it advanced their policies?
The idea that Harris “… hates America and western liberal Democracy in favour of Communism.” is absurd and only someone with extreme paranoid delusionism could think such a thing. See a shrink.
Delusions are when one rejects reality. As you are clearly doing. Projection is when projects their issues on to others. As you are doing.