“Enough hospitality, you ungrateful sons of bitches.” So read a banner flown by protesting Polish farmers in Warsaw in late February, which also showed a stick figure kicking another character draped in the colours of the Ukrainian flag out of Poland.
For the best part of a year, farmers and truckers in Poland have been staging roadblocks, marches, and blockades along the Polish-Ukrainian border in protest at various Polish and EU measures which enabled an influx of Ukrainian grain into the country, undercutting the domestic supply. Although the protests were concerned with the economic impact on farmers’ livelihoods, a nativist note could often be detected — and Ukrainians certainly read them that way. On one occasion, in a post on X, Zelensky suggested that Poles were playing into Russia’s hands by effectively weakening Ukraine on the grain issue, prompting a harsh rebuke from Polish President Andrzej Duda.
Since the start of this year, the Polish state, the mainstream Polish media, and farmers’ unions themselves have strenuously condemned anti-Ukrainian protest messages like those in Warsaw. But the mere presence of such slogans has marked a sharp departure for a country whose entire society had once come together to welcome Ukrainian refugees with open arms. And beyond angry farmers, something has changed here at the diplomatic level too, a turn away from the effusive solidarity of 2022, back towards a relationship defined by realpolitik and coloured by some of the darkest horrors of the 20th century.
On Monday, after months of negotiations and a sizeable subsidy from the Polish government for the agricultural sector, farmers finally suspended their blockade of the border. But the damage has already been done. A new survey released in late April showed that positive views of Poland among Ukrainians had fallen from a high of 94% in early 2023 to only 58% last month. Poles’ views of Ukrainian refugees have also grown somewhat more negative — although more recent figures are difficult to come by, in 2023, support among Poles for accepting Ukrainian refugees fell by 10% overall to 73%, and among some demographics such as young Polish women, to a mere 47%. And according to one 2023 survey, the percentage of Poles who wished to generally support Ukraine in its war effort dropped from 83% in early 2022 to 65% in 2023.
This growing fatigue was entirely predictable. Though few realised it at the time, that point in early 2022, when everyday Poles across the country quite literally opened their homes to families fleeing the invasion, was probably a once-in-a-lifetime moment of cross-border solidarity. For a brief period, the difficult minutiae of politics and history that had previously defined relations between Poland and Ukraine gave way to a national embrace, not just between two states, but between two peoples. Over two years since the start of the Russian invasion, and much to Vladimir Putin’s chagrin, Poland and Ukraine have remained allies. But the unbridled love affair between them and their people has ended, and the realism that had characterised their relations before 2022 has made a decisive return.
This is most clearly reflected in the two-pronged approach of Donald Tusk’s government, which seeks to maintain close ties with Ukraine on the security front while pursuing a more assertive, protectionist policy in the trade and agricultural spheres. Last week, in a policy speech to Parliament, Tusk’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, Radosław Sikorski, reiterated Poland’s interest in defending Ukraine from Russia. But he consciously framed this commitment in terms that differed markedly from the overtures of brotherhood President Duda had used during the first year of Russia’s invasion. “It is in Poland’s obvious interest to keep the aggressor away from our borders, which is why sovereign Ukraine must win this war,” Sikorski said. “Thanks to the sacrifice of Ukrainians, we can move the borders of the free world hundreds of kilometres to the east.”
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SubscribeHmmm…Polish solidarity with Ukraine dropping; Ukrainians dodging the draft; Europe’s industrial nations still haven’t figured out how to make artillery shells; China now defiantly supplying Russia; and the vaunted sanctions have not appeared to cripple the hungry Bear. How can anyone wonder why some U.S. conservatives are leery about continuing hundreds of billions of $$$ to Ukraine.
‘Europe’s industrial nations still haven’t figured out how to make artillery shells;’
Neither can America. Americas production rate is sh*t. Your weapons are too expensive too. Seems people were relying on the Americans MIC to actually be able to cope with war load. Next time you decide to support a war, perhaps you could count your bullets first.
Industrial Europe was massively impacted by the introduction of sanctions, German manufacturing contracted by as much as 20% in some sectors, how do you propose industrial Europe improved any production while energy prices were through the roof and at times, the supply of gas was uncertain? America has no excuses, you have your own energy supply over there.
‘How can anyone wonder why some U.S. conservatives are leery about continuing hundreds of billions of $$$ to Ukraine.’
Nobody wonders about this. Perfectly predictable to be honest. No wonder needed. America hasn’t fought a war since ww2 that it hasn’t had to abandon because of its own stupidity.
Those sanctions you talk about need lifting.
Your glaringly obvious emotional distain for the US renders everything you say merely insulting. Your comments are foolish and betray a lack of appreciation for the numerical reality. The US has provided far, far, far more in arms and ammunition to Ukraine than the rest of NATO combined. The recent hiatus of aid from our congressional budget impasse demonstrated the extent to which Ukraine is dependent on the US compared with the rest of NATO. Our relative shortfall of military industrial capacity pales in significance to that of Europe and, unlike Europe’s, is ratcheting up dramatically. My personal opinion is that Ukraine is a fool’s errand for the US. I am among those Americans who are weary of Europeans too spineless to defend themselves who shelter under a defense umbrella paid for for the last 50 years primarily by American citizens and who thanklessly shriek insults at us. Grow some balls and fight your own damn wars. Oh, I forgot, the pathetic British Lion has lost its teeth and can roar but not bite.
Oh come that horse, the air must be thin all the way up there. The Ukraine war has US fingerprints all over it, from typically dirty Biden involvement in energy companies to openly stating a desire of wanting to use Ukraine weaken Russia. As for military industrial capacity, Rheinmetall alone makes more artillery shells than the entire US. The whole war is a sham, and the defence umbrella is just US dollars going to the US defence industry. Go and complain to them.
In case you missed it, my original point was that MANY MANY AMERICANS DO NOT CONSENT TO THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE U.S. IN THE UKRAINIAN CONFLICT. Less than half of Americans approve of Biden and it was EUROPEANS, not Americans, who wet their pants when US money to Ukraine was briefly interrupted. You can rant all you want about the evils of American foreign policy and the decline of our power but the UK is already long gone and no longer relevant. Europe got itself into its current situation by ignoring its defense capability and whoring around economically with Russia and China. I will applaud if the US withdraws entirely from NATO and you are left to your own devices.
STOP BLAMING EUROPE, UKRAINE AND EVERYONE BUT YOURSELVES THEN. IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY THAT REQUIRES SEEING THE FLAWS IN IT AND ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SH*T POLICIES.
Nobody is turning this into a UK vs America competition but you.
Your arguments are irrational and very American.
Please, take NATO and leave us in peace. Take your sanctions regimes and your dodgy dollars with you.
Also lmao at everyone else apart from America apparently whoring around with China and Russia. So funny. Where does all your tech come from again? Isn’t Silicon Valley built off the back of Chinese manufacturing?
Whoa, you old Brits get really touchy when reminded of your impotence.
It was more tongue in cheek. You Americans don’t have much sense of humour either.
When you find one, come back better.
Britain bankrupted itself fighting in WW1 and WW2. The UK paid for everything under lend lease and we have only just paid off our debts. Stalin refused to pay money for materials received, saying we have paid in blood.
Stalin said the British bought time which is something one cannot buy.
The Tizard Mission was the greatest technological gift in the history of the World. We undertook initial research and designed the atom bomb, gave you the jet engine, broke the Enigma Code and provided top scientists to develop the bomb- Chadwick discovered the neutron which made then atom bomb possible. We also supplied brains which made the NSA possible.
American historian James Phinney Baxter III later wrote, “When the members of the Tizard Mission brought one to America in 1940, they carried the most valuable cargo ever brought to our shores.”
Tizard Mission – Wikipedia
At the end of WW2 the USA banned ther British Scientists from taking home their note books due to McMahon Act.
Britain developed the Commandos and Special Forces. Delta Force, created by Charlie Beckwith is a copy of the SAS. The shoulder sleeve badge of Delta force is a Fairbairn Sykes fighting Knife.
Britain has fought against tyranny from the Revlolutionary Wars of 1793 ( Napoleon )to 1945 and then in several wars afterwards; we have done out bit. What we can offer is experience.
We also helped invent America Mr hedges. Our experience is brilliant. I’m sorry if any Americans feel insulted or if Mr Ex Nihilo is feeling abused by a British woman. It is not my intention to insult America, just remind it that finishing wars you have helped to start is important. That’s how you end up inventing countries and building empires, totally did that ages ago here in the UK.
How’s the Empire-building thing been going for you lately?
WE have done that already, we would now like a future without the Americans controlling it, same for the rest of Europe I imagine!
America is living off what is fundamentally the back of the old British empire. How’s it for you? Are you enjoying running the relic of our old empire? It wasn’t going too badly really until the us took a hatchet to the free market and forgot about being economically responsible.
Britain is a bit past growing our own empire, we get to watch America destroy anything that was left of it though, thanks.
Hey your birth rate is worse than ours! (Mr softy)
You are S00 hot right now! I can hear the pips squeaking across the pond. Keynes referred to ‘how small their minds were’ after WW2 which Russia did more to win than the US (joining late and only after Pearl Harbour).
‘Your glaringly obvious emotional distain for the US renders everything you say merely insulting’
Not sure it’s ’emotional distain’. Just a bit of distain really. The same distain your comment displays for Europe in fact.
.’ The recent hiatus of aid from our congressional budget impasse demonstrated the extent to which Ukraine is dependent on the US compared with the rest of NATO’
Well done for letting that aid package through. It’s just if Europe is destroyed you may find yourself short of both military allies and a market to sell your new domestically produced goods too. So you might find helping to protect Europe from a war you helped forment is in your national interest.
‘paid for for the last 50 years primarily by American citizens and who thanklessly shriek insults at us.’
That’s just hilarious. America hasn’t actually paid for anything with anything that isn’t borrowed funny money for at least fifty years. Nobody is thanklessly shrieking insults at you. It’s just nobody has much to thank you for at the moment. Americans don’t seem to handle criticism well, I think you should get better at it.
‘Grow some balls and fight your own damn wars.’
This is an American proxy war with Russia. America got itself involved, it has been part of American foreign policy to ‘extend Russia’ for quite some time. Are you trying to divulge America of responsibility for its role?
‘ Oh, I forgot, the pathetic British Lion has lost its teeth and can roar but not bite.’ – to use you own words against you again, with a few adjustments * – ‘Your glaringly obvious emotional distain for the Uk* renders everything you say merely insulting’
There was absolutely nothing in my original post that was insulting to anyone. You initiated the nastiness and I merely dipped to your level to respond. I, like many Americans, am well aware of all the historical and current stupidity of US foreign policy. It is precisely that awareness that causes many of us here to favor a withdrawal of American military involvement globally. No matter how you rant, ultimately it still matters what the US does and does not get involved in; the UK not at all.
You accused Europe of not figuring out how to make artillery shells. I’m sorry you find my combative style ‘nasty’. I’d like to know which part you found particularly nasty so I can be a better person in future.
A withdrawal of American involvement is fine, sounds good to me to an extent, but not before you have finished what you started in Ukraine. It’s no good sitting there accusing Europe of not making enough shells when we have suffered extreme inflation in our energy markets that has hammered our manufacturing while America sits pretty selling us US gas having cut off gas from Russia – and Europe is under threat from Russia because of American foreign policy. Your American protection is turning out to be anything but that.
Nobody is arguing whether US involvement matters more than UK involvement. You advocate a withdrawal of American military power but on the other hand want to talk big about how much American influence matters more than anybody else’s.
I understand that some Americans are unhappy with their foreign policy, unfortunately, like your arguments, they tend to lapse into blaming Europe, ukraine, russia and everyone else that isn’t themselves. Then tell us how important America is.
If you don’t like American adventure wars, you should really understand the arguments I am making are precisely arguments against that.
No comments of mine blamed Europe for America’s problems. I blame Europe for Europe’s problems and America for America’s problems. My original observation was the evidence that Europeans, including now even Ukrainians, are not up for what is required to prevail against Russia. Therefore, the US should be leery of continuing with an endeavor that I feel was misguided from the beginning and grows more evidently so, a concept that an overwhelming majority of commenters agreed with. You are the troll that initiated insult in lieu of reason and nothing I said prior to your hostile ugly broadside dismissed American responsibility for American policy failures. Having said that, it is Europeans who have the schizophrenic ambivalence that simultaneously wants more American commitment and less American influence. Can’t have it both ways old fellow. Time to either put on your big boy trousers or stick your thumb back in your mouth.
‘Therefore, the US should be leery of continuing with an endeavor that I feel was misguided from the beginning and grows more evidently so, a concept that an overwhelming majority of commenters agreed with.’
I agree. It was misguided to begin with. All we can hope over here is that you can resolve this conflict with negotiations ASAP. You are aware that America, hopefully with its ‘big boy trousers’ on, will be part of the negotiations. Probably.
‘You are the troll that initiated insult in lieu of reason and nothing I said prior to your hostile ugly broadside’
I make trolls look pretty sweetheart. When you can cope with an open discussion and have a rational argument without lapsing into insult, come back better.
‘Having said that, it is Europeans who have the schizophrenic ambivalence that simultaneously wants more American commitment and less American influence. Can’t have it both ways old fellow.’
I don’t want it both ways. I want America to take responsibility for it’s actions in Ukraine and deliver a negotiated settlement ASAP. You cannot leave soldiers without ammunition while you f*ck about over negotiations. Then I think America should rethink it’s foreign policy so the ridiculous shenanagins like we have had over Ukraine doesn’t ever happen again.
American foreign policy is fair game for criticism by all comers, no matter how irrelevant they may be; however, historically, nothing the US has done surpasses the magnificently embarrassing decline of the British Empire which now reigns as the unrivaled symbol of the evils of colonialism that so inspires every enemy of Western Culture. Nicely done! Rule Britannia!
But still, without the British empire, America wouldn’t exist and neither would you.
Your own empire is about to do some unravelling.
There’s still time to surpass our magnificently embarrassing decline.
They can keep their drugs, social media, chlorinated chicken and steroid beef
Not even going to down tick that, it is a pathetic comment.
It’s been great fun stirring up you poor old trolls but it’s past your bedtime! Be nice while your caretakers put you in a fresh nappie and read you a bedtime story about the Big Bad Yanks. As you drift off to sleepy-land here’s something from the front page of Friday’s WSJ: “two thirds of European military hardware is manufactured in the U.S.” Sweet dreams babies!
: “two thirds of European military hardware is manufactured in the U.S.” Sweet dreams babies!
That’s entirely the point.
You are the ones letting us down. You started a war, promised the kit, couldn’t deliver it, then had a wobbler about whether you were going to deliver it or not, the whole while throwing a b*tch fit at everyone else who’s gas you have just cut off. Then moan we aren’t doing our defence properly.
Why don’t you consider the fact that Europe wouldn’t need a massive defence package right now if it wasn’t for you.
‘Be nice while your caretakers put you in a fresh nappie and read bedtime story about the Big Bad Yanks’
There are no stories about the ‘big bad yanks’. When America can actually write one, like a real life one, like where they win a war they war they started, come back.
All that hardware you are boasting about again? Make more, make it cheaper and send it to Ukraine.
Why don’t you see if there’s a few spare brain cells rolling around the American government that are actually capable of grown up conversations, diplomacy and that understand business.
If your the American standard, we are f*cked.
Too true. US intention was always to stop Russia’s improved relations with Europe, Germany in particular. US blew up Nordstream and sold us their LNG..! Disgraceful!!! No their foreign policy has gone pear shaped they are blaming Europe!
‘many of us here to favor a withdrawal of American military involvement globally’
Yes because your’e getting your butts kicked and no one likes you.
> “Americans don’t seem to handle criticism well, I think you should get better at it.”
What I see in this thread is some *individuals* from different countries bickering with each other, each representing their own personalities rather than their nation. And none of these individuals seem to handle criticism well.
If you appreciate handling criticism well, demonstrate what you consider good responses to criticism in your own postings. Show people what you would like them to emulate.
The US causes all the wars including Ukraine, they are fools and bullies like you perhaps? Since 1992 instead of pursuing peace and building infrastructure and manufacturing the US has pursued war and colonialism, they have squandered a great opportunity and their undoing is plain for all to see, I for one am going to learn Mandarin.
Touche! Well said sir!
I agree with most of your post…but I don’t think the Bear is hungry. I think the Bear is worried, almost paranoid and actually always has been, and I don’t blame it. It should be left alone.
NATO promised not to move one inch east, then did so. Missiles…defence against Iran lol were put in Poland, then a CIA coup in Ukraine…and Ukraine likely to be in NATO… Each move was clearly against Russia which, to everyone’s surprise (especially the Western “intelligence” services) had just folded up its tents and gone home…
Once that happened NATO should have been dissolved, Europe should have defended itself against whatever threat there was and the USA should have gone home to make its peoples prosperous and at peace by renouncing the world policeman role. The USA will do so in the next 40-50 years anyway to its immense benefit (ie the ordinary people not the ruling class who enjoy the world role and it benefits them financially).
Your observations are well summarized by Professor John Mierscheimer of the University of Chicago who predicted most of what has come to pass in Ukraine a decade ago and advised that the US and NATO should avoid intervention in Ukraine for all the reasons you cite. I agree with him and with you. However, the unfortunate European habit of scapegoating the US in order to avoid shouldering its share of responsibility deserves to be called out. Had European countries assumed their agreed upon share of contributions to NATO and invested in defense instead of social welfare programs and naive pacifist culture, their clout in counteracting American influence would have been significantly more substantial. The US political-intelligence-military apparatus held sway because Europe–absent American military power–was too weak and vulnerable to risk contradicting Washington. Like it or not, for 50 years America WAS NATO. In that vacuum Washington did as it pleased because European governments preferred not to spend the money nor bother with the domestic and international inconveniences of assuming the role of hegemon. Europe never offered credible ballast against American priorities and by the turn of the century political scientists, like Mierscheimer, had demoted the strategic relevance of Europe to the US as third, behind Asia and the Middle East. Which brings me to my original point in my first post: as the quagmire of Ukraine deepens more Americans will join people like me in seeing little to no advantage to US involvement in European wars involving ambivalent “allies” who are much quicker with providing criticism than weapons.
Unsurprisingly I am a “follower” of Mearsheimer whose clarity of thinking and prescience is to be admired.
Interestingly the Ukraine situation has actually “solved” a future problem for the USA. The EU was increasingly becoming another attempt at a strong German empire (German manufacturing/technology plus Russian raw materials…the longstanding German dream) with “clout” on the world stage. That is now finshed for a long time. The EU will remain a US colony, as will the UK.
The difficulty is that a Russia- China axis has arisen which, although presently unstable, may become the world hegemon.
The USA would be better off somewhat isolationist; well armed to defend itself but otherwise interacting overseas only on a trading basis. Overseas military bases are becoming more a liability than an asset.
If only the entire US Administration with their misguided unipolar foreign policies could see that this massacre of Ukrainian men is their culpability. Negotiation was possible. Russia sent a letter offering a deal that they rejected.
But they did see it…and didn’t care…
Ukraine’s war with Russia, is its own business. If Ukraine wishes to fight Russia, it can. Why other European nations, or the USA, has got involved, I don’t understand (please don’t anyone argue about defending Democracy or imagined threats from Russia).
They got involved because they thought that they could collapse the Russian state through sanctions and a proxy war using Ukraine, change the regime, break it up and feed on it’s carcass. There were plans for this since the 1990’s written by think tanker Barry Posen.
They thought that it would be a soda. Now they are shitting themselves.
LNG. That is liquefied natural gas. You might find that helps answer your question as to why America is involved. Before we bought gas from Russia, now we will buy it from America instead. Those gas pipes don’t just blow themselves up. They need help.
I see this is as a low-level grumbling row between family members. Most people basically love their families and are pleased to invite them into their homes for a visit. But family visits and tensions and annoyances go together like bread and butter – there’s always some kind of grumbling or row and both sides are quietly relieved to wave goodbye at the end of the stay and go back to their own routines.
I’d wager the same applies between the Poles and the Ukrainians.
That said, not sure how the integration of Ukraine into the EU is going to go. It’s going to be forced upon us whatever voters in the other member states think or want. And said family member moving permanently into the house instead of just visiting is going to be a whole different ball game.
Noone dares to raise the issue that about 300 kil of Poland was handed to Ukraine/USSR in 1945. Poland protested bitterly, and were not all happy with their compensation with German land. Fighting between forcibly Sovietised Poles and Ukrainians continued till 1949. The chilly relations between Hungary, Slokakia, Bulgaria and Ukraine can be explained by the substantial Ukraine/Soviet land grab from those three countries, again in 1945 .
It may be true but how far do we go back in time ? Nice used to be part of Savoy until about 1860.
Poland did not exist as an independent country between the early 19th century and 1918. Its borders were therefore flexible at best and decided by others. Much of current Poland was for centuries German, with the German population being expelled, rather brutally, after 1945.
After WW2 Stalin took the opportunity to move Russia’s borders 100 miles west, with eastern Europe borders also moving west. Ever since there have been smouldering tensions.
Stalin was very skilled geopolitically, much to the advantage of the Soviet Union.
About half of the TAA with Ukraine deals with agriculture, and the need to protect Europe from Ukraine’s lower cost exports. Grain exports to Poland came about when Russia blocked Ukraine’s grain exports from south easy ports, leaving only the Danube port free. If this awful war ever ends, Ukraine will presumably be bound again by the TAA signed by the legally elected President, Yanukovich..
If you European Nato countries want to be the stupid cannon fodder for the USA Warmonger, you deserve everything you get including the decimation of your countries and its citizens economy. Russia is not your enemy, you know this is a proxy war, with the USA Warmonger benefitting from your stupidity. If this gets out of control the USA Warmonger will sit back whilst more destruction befalls Europe, the USA Warmonger is not your friend.
Harsh, but true Dennis.
This raises the issue of how a democracy can fight a dictatorship which has full control of industry. Churchill and Roosevelt basically took control of the UK and USA economies. Once again, Orwell states that to fight Nazi Germany, the UK had to create a socialist control economy.
Can you imagine if the USA and UK tried to defeat Nazi Germany with energy policy controlled by the Green Party?
What Putin has shown is the brutal reality if power and that many nations are happy to make money at the West’s expense.
The leaders of the West have spent so many decades fooling the voters that they have fooled themselves but they have not fooled Putin, China, Iran , etc.
“Though the support remains, self-preservation has now edged out altruistic solidarity.”
Hardly any surprise there, but alliances depend upon mutually shared interests, not upon kindness and kinship. The reality is, no matter how one views Russia’s actions, that European nations have been forced to accept that they possess a shared interest in self defence. I don’t know whether this is going to be a reinvigorated NATO, Emmanuel Macron’s dream of an EU defence force, or something else, but that’s not the point: the point is that the strategic needs of the eastern European nations are now permanently aligned and against Russia.
Poland mocks the UK for leaving the EU, and brags about its own growth, whilst not observing rules and principles itself. Meanwhile, the UK kicks in NATO support for Poland and billions for Ukraine. Are the poles at great risk of irrritating everyone who helped them so soon after the Cold War – and after benefiting so much from migrancy themselves?
Marriage is a transaction between two peoples; so much for so much, given and received. Love is present, important, but ultimately secondary to the main purpose, which is to form something larger and more durable.
We are stronger when we join together …..