Over the years, Hamas has proposed numerous long-term truces or ceasefires to Israel in exchange for the realisation of an independent Palestinian state. These were all rejected by Israel, arguing that Hamas could not be trusted to adhere to any long-term ceasefire, and that these were only ploys to buy time in preparation for future attacks. In this sense, as argued in Foreign Policy by Tareq Baconi, president of the transnational Palestinian think tank, Al-Shabaka, Hamas’s increased use of violence over the years should be understood as a means rather than an end — as a way to force Israel to sit at the negotiating table.
Ultimately, despite the October 7 attack, and the aggressive rhetoric employed by some of its representatives since, there are still reasons to believe that Hamas would accept a conclusion to the conflict. Just last week, Hamas made a proposal to end the war and release the remaining hostages held by the group in exchange for the withdrawal of Israeli forces, the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and the recognition of Hamas’s governance over Gaza. Netanyahu, once again, rejected the offer.
The question, thus, is whether Israel would ever agree to a reasonable deal that ends the conflict via the establishment of a Palestinian state. Netanyahu recently boasted at a press conference that he has spent decades thwarting the formation of a Palestinian state, and that he is “proud” of doing so. But even if that were not the case, it shouldn’t be controversial from a realist perspective to say that the lion’s share of the responsibility for the conflict lies with Israel — if only because of the power asymmetry between the two sides. Because it is Israel, as the occupying power, which has the power to end the conflict; the same cannot be expected of the Palestinians — because no one would passively accept to live under permanent siege and military occupation.
This is what makes Israel’s military response to October 7 so frustrating: ethical and moral considerations notwithstanding, it is futile from a military-strategic perspective. According to US intelligence, Israeli forces have killed 20% to 30% of Hamas’s fighters — a number that falls very short of Israel’s stated goal of destroying the group and shows the latter’s resilience after three months of war that have laid waste to large parts of Gaza. Indeed, all previous Israeli attacks on Gaza had the effect of bolstering Hamas, and there is no reason to believe the current assault will be any different. As the political scientist Robert Pape noted in Foreign Affairs: “Even judged purely in strategic terms, Israel’s approach is doomed to failure — and indeed, it is already failing. Mass civilian punishment has not convinced Gaza’s residents to stop supporting Hamas. To the contrary, it has only heightened resentment among Palestinians.”
Proposals by Netanyahu’s two far-Right coalition partners, and even by Netanyahu himself, to expel a significant portion of the Gazan population, moral considerations notwithstanding, appear equally self-defeating from a strategic perspective: not only are they likely bound to fail, because no country is willing to take in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees, but even if they were to succeed, they would only exacerbate anti-Israeli sentiments in the region, at a high cost for Israel — as testified by the Houthi’s ongoing blockade of Israeli-bound ships in the Red Sea.
Of course, it would be a mistake to consider Israel’s policy in Gaza totally irrational. Most obviously, Netanyahu himself has a lot to benefit from the continuation of the hostilities: prior to October 7, he was facing massive opposition from Israeli civil society; today, he’s presiding over a war that enjoys equally massive support among citizens. So long as it rages, his political survival is likely to continue. But Bibi’s private interests are not the same as Israel’s national interests.
Military-strategic considerations aside, Israel’s standing in the world will also suffer incalculable damage from the violence wrought on Gaza. As will that of its allies and enablers — first and foremost, the United States. This brings us to another crucial tenet of the realist doctrine: that other countries should base their response to Israel’s actions on their own national interest, not Israel’s. This a logic that the US regularly, even ruthlessly, employs in the conduct of its foreign policy — except when it comes to Israel.
Almost two decades ago, Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt blamed this anomaly on the power of a pro-Israel lobby, which had “managed to divert US foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that US and Israeli interests are essentially identical”. This had caused lasting damage to the US national interest, they argued, fuelling anti-American terrorism and poisoning relations between the US and the Arab and Islamic worlds. Today, this appears truer than ever.
In November, for instance, The Washington Post reported, based on the statements of Arab leaders and analysts, that US support for Israel’s actions “risks lasting damage to Washington’s standing in the region and beyond”. As one senior G7 diplomat told the Financial Times: “We have definitely lost the battle in the Global South… Forget about rules, forget about world order. They won’t ever listen to us again.” And this isn’t even considering the risk of the United States of being dragged into a wider regional conflict — one that, in light of recent events in the Red Sea and Iraq, might already be said to be unfolding. Overall, from a hard-nosed realist perspective, it’s hard to see a case for US and Western support for Israel.
That said, there’s also a moral and ethical dimension to the conflict that is impossible to ignore, even for a hard-nosed realist. Critics claim that it is hypocritical for realists to play the moral card over Gaza when they refused to do the same for the Russia-Ukraine war. However, the two conflicts are manifestly different. Strategic considerations aside, the latter is essentially an old-fashioned conventional war between two more or less equivalent armies; accordingly, the overwhelming majority of casualties are soldiers, not civilians. In Gaza it’s the opposite.
Over the past three months, Israel has waged one of the heaviest bombing campaigns in history on Gaza, razing to the ground entire neighbourhoods; turning hundreds of thousands of buildings to rubble; killing thousands of women and children; destroying the enclave’s healthcare system; displacing almost 90% of the population; and then herding those displaced civilians into ever-smaller areas.
In the face of all this, I think even the most calculating realist can be forgiven for abandoning their usual poise and equanimity. Some tragedies urge us to put aside all strategic considerations and appeal to basic human morality. The attack on Gaza is one of these.
In this regard, it is telling that the first written intervention that the arch-realist Mearsheimer felt compelled to write on Gaza was not an analysis of the conflict from the political-strategic standpoint, but a simple denunciation of the “moral calamity” unfolding in Gaza. “I do not believe that anything I say about what is happening in Gaza will affect Israeli or American policy in that conflict,” he wrote. “But I want to be on record so that when historians look back on this moral calamity, they will see that some Americans were on the right side of history.” Sometimes, as realists, that’s as much as we can hope for.
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Subscribe“Just last week, Hamas made a proposal to end the war and release the remaining hostages held by the group in exchange for the withdrawal of Israeli forces, the release of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and the recognition of Hamas’s governance over Gaza.”
LOLOLOL
Just last week Hamas proposed that Israel forget October 7 ever happened while releasing all jailed Palestinian criminals.
Bargain!!
Are Hamas supposed to forget the 20k dead Palestinian civilians? If there’s ever going to be peace in the region then both sides will have to accept the other and all that has gone on before it
Don’t start a war you can’t win. Japan and Germany had to forget hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths after 1945. That’s the price of launching aggressive war, and getting your rear end kicked. Deal.
If Israel had the same morality as Hamas, there would be 500,000 dead Palestinians.
Touché
So it’s might has right then? You’d have no complaints if a stronger nation eventually defeated and occupied Israel?
Depends who starts it.
‘Lesley van retard?
There’s been a few who tried. Not a peep from them now.
“God is NOT on the side of the big battalions, but on the side of those who shoot best.”
(*V.)
Israel is a democracy, with quite a large Arab demographic alongside the Jewish population, and liberal attitudes to, say, homosexuality. Commendable, no? But you seem peeved that anyone would support its right to exist in the face of Hamas, a crazed islamofascist dictatorship over a mono ethnic population (strangely lacking in gay people) who mostly ullulate along to the tune “death to the Jews”. Which bit of them do you most like? The fascism? The purity of their quasi ethnostate? Or their promise to the Jews?
Best comment so far.
That sums it up pretty well.
One side, though imperfect, wants to live and let live. The other, also imperfect, does not.
This article seems like it’s making moral equivalencies and calling it realism.
I don’t see much evidence of Israel’s live and let live policy towards Palestinians in the West Bank, where farmers have been forcible ejected from their land by Jewish settlers. You all talk as if Hamas exists in a vacuum, and that Israeli policy has had no effect
It seems to me that the lovely unherd readers are just racist, Israel is ‘western and ‘white’ while Palestine is ‘arab and ‘coloured’ hence the white rage we are witnessing from the unherds’ herd mentality. Humans suck sadly, and never learn…
What demented whataboutery is this ? No one mentioned skin colour. Only you.
You do know there are dark-skinned Ethiopian Jews ? And little difference in skin tone between many Israelis and Palestinians. Not that any of that matters. Except, apparently, to you.
Most Israelis are actually Sephardic or Mizrahi. I think you might look a little closer to home if you on the hunt for racism.
The very essence of the ‘realist’ argument is that might is right.
succinctly put.
Moral superiority is right.
No, because that would involve killing me and my family. And as far as that is concerned, I am a realist.
Bro, are you saying that Hamas has the moral high ground here? Utterly confused.
How did you calculate that? Israel has already killed one percent of the Gaza population. If Hamas killed one percent of the Israeli population, that would amount to 60,000 victims
This bizarre obsession with proportionality again. What percentage do you think Hamas would have killed if they could have?
Is 1% your calculation of what is ethical. Please share with us the calculations of previous wars and what you consider to be ethical.
“Don’t start a war you can’t win.”
Really? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan for example, not to mention 1812.
Yes, I see this as being as bad for Israel as Vietnam was for the US – perhaps worse with both world and internal opinion slowly moving against the current policy of all-out war as its genocidal intent is revealed.
With luck, Israel can then get back to putting Netanyahu in front of the courts and eventually put him in prison with the extra war crimes tacked on to his sentence.
I admire your confidence sir.
Do Hamas shoot, shell, bomb or Hellfire missile their own soldiers & civilians rather than have them taken hostage? Do they dress as dinosaurs & do little dances on video as they shell cities? Just wondering where those actions might fit in your morality equation.
Yes, they celebrate the worst atrocities ever seen on videos.
Are you talking about videos in the public domain or those specially curated ones shown by the IDF to a specially selected bunch of Western journalists & mouthpieces?
Does the videos being “curated” make them less accurate? You sound upset that the IDF would choose to show the worst of Hamas from an ample supply of bad actions while ignoring that the bad actions actually occurred.
Oh & Lesley – answer my question about shooting the hostages please? Any evidence Hamas resorted to that? There’s plenty now that the IDF did so on the 7th.
She ‘answers’ little I’m afraid.
From her name I took her to be a Boerin, but perhaps she is a Jewess, my mistake.
Do you think there is something wrong with being a jewess?
Awful mistake in the heat of battle…..
As to the other hostages…. (You do know you’re not allowed to take civilian hostages?), Hamas must just release them. Maybe Israel must go to to the ICC – lol.
Israel currently holds 4,500 Palestinians in gaol, 310* without trial apparently. Hostages or what?
(* Source: Wikibeast.)
What a sheltered life you do live, even for a Boerin!
Try investigating what the Mexicans and other Central Americans are up to! It makes Hamas and indeed your own blacks look like complete amateurs.
The problem is in the definition of “win”. Hamas can still win the war by forcing the exchange of innocent hostages for convicted murderers and ceasefire, that Thomas Fazi is advocating.
If that happens, then Israel loses decisively. We will have wasted hundreds of lives, billions of dollars and much international soft-power, lost any chance of reaping benefit from the Abraham accords, lost Egypt to the Muslim Brotherhood and laid ourselves open as a sitting duck waiting for Iran to give us the next beating. This misunderstanding of the stakes involved is where Fazi’s realism falls short.
@Rafi – how is Israel’s ‘winning’ going? Tens of thousands have emigrated, hundreds of thousands internally displaced & unlikely to be able to return to anywhere near the Lebanese border now. All those IDF citivzen soldiers not at work and now the Houthis blockading them from the Red Sea. An essential aspect of any ‘Realist’ discourse are the realities of the powers available. Yes Israel can flatten Gaza, starve its population, but can it defend the ships, it’s economic interests or it’s population with the resources it has at it’s disposal in this asymmetric conflict?
As for ‘convicted murderers’? How many of the hundreds of Palestinians currently detained by Israel have received any due process at all? How many of them are minors for that matter?
I agree. I think it is very likely that the war will end and Netanyahu’s rule with it, long before Hamas is defeated and this will lead to a far greater support for Hamas and astonishingly high restitutional costs on Israel.
It is also quite likely to lead to the current apartheid system becoming so villified that a two-state solution is arrived at as a reaction.
But then I’m an optimist that this current madness following the vile provication of Oct 7th will have a good outcome, just one which is very different from the one Netanyahu envisages.
Hamas is neither a legitimate authority, nor is it a body that can be reasoned with. You are very mistaken if you think Hamas care about dead Palestinian Arabs: in fact, large-scale Arab mortality is their own strategy, not Israels.
You need to get it into your head that people like Hamas are not like some slightly more emphatic group of disgruntled Guardian readers. They are a nihilistic cult who are a long way down a purity spiral. Think Hitler and those Germans who fought to the last. That is their psychology.
These “realists” can’t seem to understand.
I agree but do you see this war as likely to defeat them. Surely the way to weaken a terrorist organisation is to weaken the need for its existence.
20K dead Palestinians and zero chance of peace. Time for the Palestinians to move on?
Metaphorically or geographically?
The first is an option.
Civilians or combatants? You forgot to mention the so called “children” and how many have been killed from Hamas’s own rockets and gunfire?
And how many decades of suppression have Gazans put up wit?
Apparently not enough. They still seem very committed, or at least a large percentage of them do, to the whole “death to Israel, death to America” weltanschauung that our far left seems to celebrate.
The only option left to the Israelis seems to be to severely punish Gazans, until they accept the notion that no, they don’t get to make every Israeli flee for their lives.
Enough bombings will convince them. Otherwise, they’ll keep attacking, in the hopes of rallying the forces of anti-westernism and anti-Semitism.
Since 2007 when Hamas took over.
This author goes to a lot of trouble to make absolutely no sense whatever. Each ‘point’ he makes is inarguably untrue. How glad I am he is not in any authority position to foist his ‘wisdom’ on a weary world.
It is quite an amazing thing to have written an article which reads well and is almost entirely bullshit – congrats! He succeeds in being almost totally one-sided in his view whilst attempting to state that a ‘realist’ is, naturally, level-minded. Extraordinary, but also dangerous as he spreads such atrocious lies and propaganda
@Tony – Quite amazing too that you haven’t pointed any of the errors out them out – care to do so now?
For perhaps the first time, i wholeheartedly endorse what this author has written here, especially that last sentence.
According to US intelligence, Israeli forces have killed 20% to 30% of Hamas’s fighters — a number that falls very short of Israel’s stated goal of destroying the group and shows the latter’s resilience after three months of war that have laid waste to large parts of Gaza.
At that rate, Israeli forces will have wiped out Hamas by, say, August. So they’re doing better than the French against the Germans in World War I, and way better than the Americans against the Viet Cong. Three months? God, we have short attention spans. And no patience. It took the French 117 years to kick the English off the continent, and I have no doubt Philip VI had his share of Thomas Fazis back then, smugly informing him after six months or so that he was bogged down in a quagmire, and that he’d be better off just suing for peace.
But he is a smug ‘realist’.
117 years? Calais wasn’t recaptured until 1558.
And of course armies don’t recruit, train or reconstitute themselves in wars – they’re just systematically destroyed. Really? I think it’s you who needs a lesson in history Mr/Ms Hippy. That recruitment process is usually strengthened, not weakened when attacks are savage or disproportionate.
There’s too much reasoning in this article that is wrong, to get into its flaws. The best I can suggest is to read the recent piece by Gadi Taub in Tablet Magazine that refutes this line of argument by the Israeli Left:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/gadi-eisenkot-netanyahu-palestinian-state
Thank you Ian, for that suggestion. The article is well worth 10 minutes of anyone’s time. I don’t know why people would think a deal could be cut with Hamas after October 7th. To think that Israelis would be happy to have people like that as neighbours once more in return for a cease fire, Are leftists that bonkers? You may as well start swimming with crocodiles.
Before and after Oct 7th as has been shown from the decades of attempts to find a political solution which has 100% been rejected by one side each time. Here’s a hint, it wasn’t the Israelis
For the author to talk about Israel turning down and offer of a settlement when it was the diametric opposite is extraordinary – but we live in a time where blatant lies can be made a truth, by saying or writing them.
It is always a bad idea to form your ideas on Israel from just reading Haaretz editorials.
As far as I can tell “realist” just means anti-Western. The “realists” seem to be willing to support any dictator or terrorist group that can “pwn the West”. It’s sad.
Pretty much agree, a realistic article. Now we just have to wait for the ICJ verdict, which will go against Israel.
If it does it will be the last nail in the coffin of a well intentioned, but ultimately irrelevant organisation. No country of world importance (by which I mean actual power) recognises it. It is a vanity.
And the biggest joke is that they even entertained this South African farce. Not too long ago SA ignored the ICC and failed to arrest Sudanese president Bashir.
South Africa is playing a game that has little to do with justice or even the issue of Palestine. Follow the money. Always follow the money. The ANC has been bankrolled.
The author does not understand that from a Western humanist perspective a sacrilegious ritualistic horror was enacted by Hamas and those who supported them. Oct 7 went beyond a profane horror through its intentionality and the public sharing of joy in mass rape and murder. The joy Hamas and their supporters expressed evaluated the act to a debasement all of humanity. This sacrilige will harden the resolve of Israel and many in The West.
I’m just as horrified by the Israeli response as I was to the original terrorist attack. Killing tens of thousands of women and children (not to mention numerous men waving white flags) aren’t the actions of a civilised nation
Have you no discernment iro intent?
They have none and are unworthy of debate. We are at war with savages and their enablers.
There is no equivalency between Hamas’ gleeful sadistic barbarism (captured on their smartphones, natch) and Israel’s military response. And no, the number of dead is not relevant.
It boggles the mind how some well-intentioned people can’t discern the difference. Fazi’s comment, “It is, at heart, a rational attempt to seek solutions to conflict…” is completely obliterated when savages are involved. Savages are not rational and cannot negotiate in good faith. How does one sit down at a table and negotiate a peace with someone who lives only to destroy your kind? And says so repeatedly and unabashed! This is complete insanity and unrealistic.
You can just see this guy in 1940 saying “Germany’s actions have nothing to do with us.”
You must be referring to the savagery of successive Israeli governments for 80 years keeping people in occupation under seige, killing people indiscriminately, moving in settlers onto land owned by Palestinians, razing their houses to the ground, tearing up their olive trees…… I could go on but you get my drift.
Well said !
blah blah blah blah. same old same old. they could have negotiated, you know, this thing called peace, but 2 states ain’t for them, they want it all, enabled, egged on and abetted by the likes of you. Yeah, we get your “drift.”
Can you point readers to an example please? a Link?
agreed, even if the number of dead was close to being true.
‘The number of dead is not relevant’??
It is to them you N*zi scum!
The easy and stupid use of the term Nazi says it all. Only scum talk like that.
Bro…Hamas fighters also wave white flags and then throw grenades when IDF approaches.
Regarding the tens of thousands of dead women and children…Hamas uses human shields. Did you see the videos of Hamas firing on them fleeing the IDF-created humanitarian corridors?
The US has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians via drone strikes. The US has never received the backlash internationally that Israel is getting now. In fact, Western governments were complicit in one atrocity after another. There will be a winner and a loser at this point, and war is not pretty.
How do you argue with a nation that has 18 Ohio class nuclear, ballistic submarines at his back?*
(*Nearly 2,000 years ago Hadrian had 30 Legions ‘at his back’, and it was the same then!……..somethings never change.)
Of course you are. You’ve obviously never heard of this thing called war. Or you think Israelis have no right to wage it, regardless of how large and depraved the provocation. Pathetic but all too predictable.
The intentionality of many of the reported horrors of October 7th are not proven – nor are the circumstances of the alleged atrocities you state, but I’ll give you that the perception of those things as fact will harden the resolve of certain portions of the West. That that ‘resolve’ then materialises in actions that move us further away from the eventual security of either side is what matters now. This is where the ‘Realists’ have arguments that need to be addressed, but I won’t be holding my breath that any will be in this comment section.
If the intentionality is not proven why did the leader of Hamas state they would keep doing October 7th again and again – you are publicly lying
He calls this lie critical thinking. Like this guy:
https://www.thefp.com/p/nyu-professor-hamas-iran-censorship?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=260347&post_id=141020605&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2xj36s&utm_medium=email
The intentionality to break into Israel, kill their soldiers and take hostages yes. The intentionality to commit the atrocities the IDF have accused them of – well the jury is out on that one – not least because the evidence of those atrocities is falling apart – the beheaded babies, foetuses ripped from mothers, babies put in ovens, all the burnings alive and, yes, the rapes too.
the jury is out only in the Israel-hating circles you belong to. You should be so proud!
read the article properly and without blinkers brother
yes I think that the number of down thumbs are inversely proportional to the amount of actual research these folks have done – eg read Robert Fisk’s account of reporting on the conflict for 30 years….
RE: The intentionality of many of the reported horrors of October 7th are not proven
Only an obsessive Israel hater could make such an outlandish and nasty claim. They’ve been proven over and over, and by Hamas’ own proud broadcasting of their depravity — until it dawned on the idiots that this wasn’t helping them convince gullible idiots (recognize yourself) that they were the poor oppressed people they made themselves out to be (or more accurately, that people like you made them out to be). The proof is there and has been since Oct. 8, some people just refuse to see it. Tear down any hostage posters lately?
Initially there were accounts of babies being beheaded. Can you corroborate any of this?
As to the ‘rapes’ are there any definitive figures yet?
Diversionary hair-splitting. As usual.
What is “diversionary “ about that?
It is either a FACT or it ISN’T.
Which is it?
FACT. The world media has seen it.
Surely even YOU don’t believe that?
How are you different from a Holocaust denier?
Read this you c**t:
What We Know About Three Widespread Israel-Hamas War Claims – FactCheck.org
Tut tut, being a foul mouthed oaf is not something you should advertise Turner old chap.
The article on the ‘40’ beheaded babies is interesting. I hadn’t realised your ‘brain dead’ President had fallen for it! Still not really surprising is it?
Droning on about the 40 beheaded babies does nothing to invalidate the proven cases of rape, burning and mutilation. If this were 1943, you’d be denying the holocaust.
Sam – you are demonstrating to the world that you are an ignorant unread and not very bright person – best you do some actual reading for yourself vs the short attention span crap that is obviously all your simple brain can handle – how about another c word that you probably dont know the actual meaning of ‘cretin’.
He’s troll. Act accordingly.
I’m not sure why you have put the word rape in inverted commas?
There is evidence aplenty of the atrocities that were committed. First hand accounts and witness accounts; plus footage that Hamas took and posted themselves. Israel is now committed to the process of evidence gathering for the purpose of future charges. What’s more the rapes continue in the tunnels; of both women and men.
Simple really. They don’t take the word of Israelis (Jews). To this sort, we are the lying dissembling machinators of medieval times.
They do, of course, blindly accept the word of Hamas, even after its lies have been proven, i.e. Al-ahli hospital, 500 dead, Israeli bomb, when in fact, hospital parking lot, at most 30 dead, Hamas/PIJ misfire.
Did you see the footage of a young woman being pulled out of the back of a truck with blood all over the back of her pants? Not just rape-sodomy. Support that? She is either dead or still a hostage as her mother recognized her on the video and she is not home.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/zip-tied-bloodied-israeli-woman-abducted-in-gaza-by-hamas-militants-during-surprise-attack-video-shows/ar-AA1hQTCx#
With every article he writes, this author’s defence of atrocities against Jews becomes more disgusting.
It is disgusting but also revealing. The widespread pro-hamas sentiment of various groups in the West has awakened many more people to the pernicious evil that exists in our civilizations.
Leftists have always been pro-Palestinian. The Red Army Faction, a German terror group founded in 1970, was not only rabidly antisemitic, but also trained with the PLO. Nothing, and I really mean nothing, surprises me about these people. There is no depth to which they will not lower themselves.
look Love (irony here ) – no one here is supporting hamas – what thinking people are doing is critiquing Israel’s continual bullying and murdering of the Palestinians – and the outcome that comes from this ie a brutalized people with nothing left to live for – and therefore the reality that israel will have to kill them all – or repent and attempt some decency – probably way too late now. WAKE UP – no one is ‘pro-hamas’. This article is revealing that too many unherd readers are relatively uninformed whcih is a worry….. I guess maybe many will boycott the comments section – and leave it to the knee-jerkers !
I love the denial of support for Hamas all the while supporting Hamas. The “brutalized people” could have made peace with Israel at any time but continue to choose to go for the whole enchilada. That is the essence of the conflict that Israel-haters refuse to accept. One can only surmise the motivations.
The world is rapidly descending towards a gargantuan clash between the forces of Evil vs Good.
Unlike previous global conflicts, the Evil and Good are not readily identified or separated (e.g. democracy vs fascism in WW2). Evil has penetrated to the very core of the Good and its source is not always recognisable. However, when it spews into focus, as on 07 October 2023, then every right-thinking person should call it out and seek to destroy it without equivocation.
This article was a specious twisting of perspectives and selective omission of key facts.
Those who have debased humanity by their foul deeds, collectively and individually, have thereby forfeited their human right to a continued existence amongst us. Unless the Good forces in our societies can identify with that principle then our future is beyond bleak.
The author’s thesis is very simple. Everything Hamas did and does is Israel’s fault. If Israel didn’t defend itself there would be peace. Don’t you see how simple it is.
If the Palestinians were to lay down their guns tomorrow, there would be no war. If Israel was to lay down its guns, there would be no Israel.
– Benjamin Netanyahu
Spot on. That’s exactly what he’s saying in oh so many words. If Israel just ceased to exist the region would be a haven of peace and prosperity, right? Why can’t those pesky Jews just go away quietly so Leftists can keep pretending that they are a morally superior and abhor violence except when it serves their agenda.
Pick a side if you like, but the reality is, the outcome will be decided by a war with one winner and one loser. Hamas committed an act of war — no question about that. Israel is responding with overwhelming force — no doubt about that. Civilians die in war. The US has killed hundreds of thousands of civilians this century but has never gotten the backlash that Israel is getting right now. That is difficult for me to square. At the end of the day, the outcome of the war will determine the future, just as it has since the beginning of mankind.
Well said, sir. War is hell. Hamas started this war. After they are crushed, we will have a ceasefire and the Gazans, who voted them in, should show better sense next time.
You obviously have not seen the footage of the young Isreali children singing songs about how joyously they are seeing babies being bombed in Palestine and how many more they wish would be killed and how wonderful it will be when there are no people left in Gaza and Gaza is uninhabitable. I don’t think it can get more horrific than this. Also I have yet to see any footage of Hamas gleefully celebrating the deaths of the Israelis. What I remember seeing is one of the Jewish women from the kibbutz who was a hostage coming out and shaking the hand of her Hamas captor. Yet more obscene propaganda from Israel as usual. also no footage or no evidence of so-called beheaded babies by Hamas . you need to look at both sides and you need to honestly look at the history.
You are unable, quite obviously, to provide evidence of the existence of such videos
Of course she is. I suspect a sock puppet account for Champagne Socialist. They are cut from the same cloth, and have the same writing style.
Oh I’m sure they exist all right – On Tik Tok made by Pallywood.
You have not seen footage of Gazans celebrating the atrocities? Really Kathy? Please take your lies and propaganda elsewhere. Are you the sock puppet for that vile little troll Champagne Socialist? Your writings indicate a similar intellectual level, which is of very low quality. Please don’t bother to respond. I usually never engage with trolls. They leave such a nasty aftertaste.
Israel has stood over Gaza, belittled it, blockaded it stolen its land and houses for decades but I should forget all that as Hamas are big meanies ?
When Hamas operatives murder, mutilate, rape, and kidnap civilians, in the cause of destroying the state of Israel, which their sole raison d’etre, then any moral claim Hamas has becomes about as legitimate as Mein Kampf.
Evidence of Hamas’ savagery is overwhelming. It’s also inexcusable. If anything, they’ve set the Palestinian cause back years.
I have no idea why so many on the left excuse barbarity, but atrocities are atrocities, and Israel has both a right to exist and a right to defend itself.
hamas-massacre.net
What do you know, or want to know about the way Hamas has treated Gazans, taking their land and money?
Exactly.
Author and his ilk are not realists, they are appeasers, no different from the ones “accomodating” Hitlers demands in Munich.
They always have no problems with great crimes of various dictatorships around the world.
Somehow the West and Israel are the main problem in the world.
Maybe author can explain why Kurds should not have their own country?
What is so special about Palestinians?
Author claims that Gazans support Hamas.
Hamas started this war and now Gazans suffer consequences of their savagery.
um -did you actually read the article ? i was a supporter of Israel’s right to exist safely up till ?? 1990’s when it started to become clear that ethnic cleansing was happening as a state goal obfuscated as usual by various justifications for taking over more land and killing more Palestinians – read the article and maybe you might figure out a wiser ‘western humanist perspective” !
The problem with commentators giving themselves labels like “realist” is that no commentator would claim to belong to the misty-eyed romantic idealist school of conflict analysis. “Realist” is just a spin term that attempts to put opponents on the back foot.
Yes, it screams lazy thinking and fraud.
It seems to me that you, for very obvious reasons are equating all this with Blood River, 1838.
Is that not so?
In fact the Boers and Israelis appear to have rather too much in common when one thinks about it.
Didn’t they even develop a nuclear weapon between themselves before the fall of Apartheid? Wasn’t it called Gabriel? Or was that the delivery Missile?
Your argument is becoming weaker and weaker. Take something.
Rudeness is NO answer!
Perhaps you should return to your fabled beach?
ANC Stan?
Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging.
It is so very hard to take seriously any realist who uses the term ‘the right side of history’.
Exactly. It’s the case of a marxist relativist who “feels” he’s on the right side of history.
And if he is a true realist then he must understand that Israel is therefore just protecting its state interests.
Fazi’s ‘realist’ view of this war can only be seen after stepping through the looking glass. Mearsheimer’s worldview has left him dumbfounded about this war. When asked in a recent interview to proffer a better option for Israel’ Mearsheimer said he had none.
‘The right side of history’ is one of refuges for the realist who cant face reality. Other realists such as Fazi seek refuge in wonderland. Meanwhile Israelis face death while they grapple with the reality.
Maybe realism would be to admit that the current situation is the norm for the region rather than exception. The best one can get in the Middle East is a truce, which is how the current conflict will unavoidably end. Until the next round that is. But that’s the reality of the extremely tribal, sectarian and violent region. If Jews believe that’s the place to be then play by the rules…
Reply to Ian_s. Thank you so much for suggesting the Tablet article by Gadi Taub. It is a wisdom gleaned from the reality of history. It is not so much an opinion as a forgone conclusion of “ what will happen if”…. I wish everyone, especially the Biden administration would read it.
The problem with this as with all of these so called realist opinions is that they seem to misunderstand, minimise or even eliminate the agency of the counterparty.
For example, consider the author’s use of the phrase, “Russia’s security needs”. This is simply accepting the delusion of the Kremlin regime that it’s living in some kind of board game like ‘Risk’ and that its track record of genocidal dominance of its neighbours since the 1917 Revolution can somehow, through, conceptual transubstantiation be wished away by translation into a legitimate politics of interest.
Now don’t get me wrong. It is the case that we should not provoke unnecessarily the Russians or any other dangerous power and that doing so unnecessarily is foolish. Therefore, it is cogent to criticise the expansion of NATO eastwards. But the realist arguement seems to treat the violent response of the counterparty as a given, like the weather. It is our fault for going about in the wrong clothes.
What if NATO had gone all in against Russia in Ukraine and wiped out every single piece of Russian equipment and Russian soldier that had crossed the border — inflicting a massive defeat on Russia and intimidating it into quiescence? Would the realists have then said that the Russians had been “unrealistic” in their judgement of Western interests?
Realist historians seem to be only interested in being realist with the West and not with the barbarians that we confront. What would be his advice to Hamas?
How realistic was it for them to launch a war against Israel that has destroyed Gaza?
Also, his reading of history of Israel is very incomplete… I could go on.
Yes, the writer takes two things as given – that the West/Ukraine ‘provoked’ Russia and that Israel ‘oppressed’ Palestinians/Gaza. Regardless of one’s own views, these are not settled facts.
Re Russia/Ukraine the Realists do have the statements of diplomats, politicians, academics and others over 40 years on their side that Ukraine was a dirty great big red line for the Russians. These warnings came from the West, neutrals and Russian hard-liners & Liberals alike. Not to mention the successive proposals in advance for them for a new security framework that didn’t involve nuclear-armed missiles on their border. What more evidence would you like?
The Balfour Declaration was the starting gun for all of this, but it’s just too humiliating to discuss! Even now!
Really? Wasn’t it Moses and the Israelites crossing the Red Sea?
Fact not fiction sir.
“All of this” started with the the battle of Kaybar in 682.
Muhammad declared, “You have judged according to the very sentence of God above the seven heavens.”[25][24] Consequently, 600–900 men of [Jewish tribe] Banu Qurayza were executed. The women and children were distributed as slaves, with some being transported to Najd to be sold. The proceeds were then utilized to purchase weapons and horses for the Muslims.
What about the earlier Battle of Yarmuk, 636 AD?
There is an interesting historical theory about why Islamic countries behave as they do today.
The early Islamic caliphates hosted a very culture more like an early version of the European Renaissance.
Then the Mongols struck and destroyed the area murdering inhabitants of large cities by the millions. The destruction was comprehensive and the few survivors rekindled a very different form Islamic culture that lives on today. Consider it a multi generational form of PTSD.
What right do the Russians have to say what another independent country (Ukraine) may or may not do ?
What is your justification for considering this acceptable ? Is there some accepted international law or convention that supports this view ?
If you accept this principle, does that mean you also allow Ukraine to have a say in what Russia may or may not do ? Or Spain in French affairs ?
Where do you propose to draw the line ?
Who said anything about ‘rights’? Russia is a very powerful country with interests in securing its borders and general security. It made a reasoned ‘realistic’ decision about how it might best achieve those goals. It did so with respect to the actions of the West & Ukrainians – a country in which a civil war had been raging since a violent, Westeern backed coup. They had been engaged in a peace process & even after the invasion were negotiating – but the talks were scuppered by Bozo & the West (so much for ‘independent’ Ukraine). Your view of the world is a touch simplistic I fear.
That’s complete nonsense. Asking NATO to back out of Poland was never “realistic”. Nothing on Putin’s “wish list” ultimatum from late 2021 was remotely realistic.
Civil war was not “raging” in Ukraine in 2021. Russia’s attempts to destabilise the country had stalled.
In what was was the “Western-backed coup” violent ?
You’re just making stuff up.
Re the coup – read this exhaustive review of the Maidan shootings.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4048494
Also this- most of which has been memory-holed:
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/02/26/robert-parry-the-mess-that-nuland-made/
It’s interesting to see how Hamas fans inevitably become Putin fans. Such an opportunity to accurately find a sewer pit cannot but cause surprise.
Great link, thanks!
Hi Peter, please see my response above. I lived in the Kyiv at the time and think the ‘western-backed coup’ narrative comes from the same pshchological impetus as conspiracy theories do (because it is one). Nobody was in control of what was happening, 100 protestors (including ppl I knew who were work colleagues) could change the course of events, like in many volatile situations (esp popular uprisings as this was) it wasn’t anyone’s strategies that decided outcomes but fluid and unpredictable events on the ground.
You sound really naive, perhaps you should try reading more?
More of what pray ?
Just ad hom nonsense unless you can back this up with somwe actual facts. The clock’s ticking …
I don’t think it’s a question of rights but of detante, the consequences of actions.
As a good, male, friend of mine says: The divorce courts are full of men who knew they were right!
Isn’t hard not to provoke authoritarian states? They are really sensitive to liberal ideals and their spread aren’t they?
I lived in Kyiv during the Maidan protests and subsequent flight of Yanukovich. Work stopped so from start to finish I spent a lot of time prowling around, it was a fascinating time. I knew and was sympathetic with some protestors (as a Brit, I thought I should be no more than an observer) who were local friends and work colleagues. I saw, at a distance, some protestors being both bludgeoned and shot – one was an old lady who state coroners falsely recorded as dying from a heart attack rather than the blow to her head.
I’m not saying I’m the oracle, but I can say that regardless of what any ‘diplomat, politician or academic’ said it was a very fluid, organic process motivated by public fear of a Russia-backed Yanukovich dictatorship.
There was no clear leadership (even Klitschko, quite popular mayor of Kyiv, had little control), the protestors were not doing what the USA or anyone else told them to, any paid agents or provocateurs had no influence on what happened. The West had very little influence on ground-level events, you’re looking at it from a ‘grand political strategy’ perspective which didn’t exist.
I thought the people of Ukraine had voted for this “Dictator” a few years earlier in something called a democratic presidential election?
Why did they fear the winner of a democratic process?
Lots of corruption in Ukraine and election results widely distrusted. Yanukovich’s support was in the populous Donbas ie the now breakaway oblasts, not central Ukraine or the west, where votes were split among different parties. Then Y. started doling out favours to his Donbas business buddies, there were reports of violence eg Yanukovich personally hitting ppl and having political/business rivals roughed up. Final straw (when protests started in Kyiv, these were inflamed by police brutality) was Yanukovich failing to sign a memorandum of understanding with the EU and pledging to join Putin’s Eurasia Customs Union (all members ex-USSR states but dominated by Russia and widely viewed as a means for Russia to influence members) plus Yanukovich appearing to want to emulate Lukashenko (Belarus) and Putin. The fear was that future elections would be rigged or cancelled. There was/is certainly a culture conflict in Ukraine (Soviet-nostalgic Donbas vs Western-oriented centre and west). Having seen Soviet-Russian methods up close (I had a business in Ukraine) I know which aspirations I sided with.
When John Mearsheimer says a “pro-Israel lobby” manages to divert US foreign policy far from what the American national interest is – that is realism. When Louis Farrakhan says “the Jews” have been working for years to control representatives in Congress – that is antisemitism. Yes? No? Just asking.
And a comment/addendum: aside from Israel, Egypt has also been blockading Gaza. No one talks about it, and I don’t really understand why. (both the blockade and the no-talking)