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The Marxist who recognised evil Hamas apologists deserve the scrutiny of Norman Geras

'Unlike so many of his colleagues on the Left, he had no illusions about the purity or sanity of the underdog' (Carl Court/Getty Images)

'Unlike so many of his colleagues on the Left, he had no illusions about the purity or sanity of the underdog' (Carl Court/Getty Images)


October 18, 2023   6 mins

Norman Geras, who died 10 years ago today, was an unusual figure on the Western Left: he was a Marxist who steadfastly and unequivocally opposed militant Islamism and jihadi terrorism. As a free-thinking political theorist, he was as strident in his opposition to the abuses of Western imperial power as he was in his support for individual human rights, especially free speech. But he was also a formidable critic of the worst tendencies of his own side, often making him a pariah in that quarter. This week, his most relevant legacy is this iconoclasm: a willingness to expose the moral and intellectual nullity of Left-wing apologia for terrorism and war crimes.

When I first embarked on an academic career 20 years ago, I became friends with Geras after reading his blog, which he launched in 2003. What I most admired about him was his moral clarity and unerring political judgment, as well as his congenital aversion to bullshit. If I was ever uncertain about a political issue, or couldn’t articulate why I felt the way I did about it, Norm’s blog, which he assiduously kept right up until his death from cancer, would invariably supply the answers. The world has changed dramatically since he left it, but his thinking, especially on evil and political atrocity, provides an essential guide for navigating its darker fringes.

Long before BLM and Harvard students were siding with the murderers of partygoers and children in Israel, Geras was contending with the same diseased mindset that saw the September 11 attacks and subsequent jihadi atrocities in the West as a form of retribution for the crimes of imperialism. The dean of this school of casuistry was Noam Chomsky, who is now lauded by some on the Right as a champion of free speech. He responded to 9/11 by changing the subject: he compared it to far worse atrocities that the US had committed, according to his calculus.

“Nothing,” Chomsky remarked, “can justify crimes such as those of September 11. But we can think of the United States as an ‘innocent victim’ only if we adopt the convenient path of ignoring the record of its actions and those of its allies, which are, after all, hardly a secret.” Howard Zinn similarly argued that 9/11 served as a reminder of “the resentment all over the world felt by people who have been the victims of American military action — in Vietnam, in Latin America, in Iraq”. And Tariq Ali, another prominent figure on the Left, was even more forthright: 9/11 was first and foremost an act of anti-colonial resistance. “The subjects of the Empire had struck back,” he declared.

Christopher Hitchens famously and acrimoniously broke with the Left over 9/11. But Geras remained within the fold, forensically criticising its worst excesses in the hope that he could salvage what honour it still had. He wrote scathingly of the callousness of those comrades whose grudging acknowledgment of the horror of 9/11 contrasted starkly with their extravagant efforts to “contextualise” it. “Half the world stood aghast,” he observed, “but in no time at all there was a great chorus of Left and liberal opinion… saying, ‘Yes, terrible, appalling, but…’; the ‘but’ following so close upon the ‘yes’ as to squeeze out any adequate registration of either the significance or the horror of what occurred.”

Geras was no less scathing about the unwarranted slippage inherent in the rhetoric of the apologists. “For it was not American imperialism or the US government that they struck at,” he noted, referring to al-Qaeda. “It was a large number of (mostly) American citizens.” He continued: “It is no more a response to imperialism and its effects to massacre thousands of civilians at random, than it would be a response to bad conditions in some inner-city for a person aggrieved about them to rape the child of a wealthy family or kill a few passers-by.”

I don’t need to wonder what Geras, who identified as a “non-Jewish Jew” and had a deep concern for the future of his people, would have made of Hamas’s recent war crimes against thousands of innocents in Israel. He would have vehemently repudiated them, along with any efforts to minimise or excuse the horror that was inflicted on the victims and their families. While he opposed the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, he was categorical that nothing justified the indiscriminate murder of Israeli civilians. And he would have been outraged by Hamas’s barbarism, knowing full well of the group’s genocidal ambition to destroy Jews.

But, especially, he would have been taken aback by the ghoulish howls of support emitted by some progressives in the West. Najma Sharif, who describes herself as “a Somali-American writer based in the digital world”, tweeted: “What did y’all think decolonisation meant? Vibes? Papers? Essays? Losers.” Zareena Grewal, an anthropologist at Yale University, proclaimed on the same platform: “Settlers are not civilians. This is not hard.” She was criticising the idea that Israeli civilians are entitled to non-combatant immunity from murderous violence. Among this contingent, not even the most perfunctory throat-clearing was considered necessary. Indeed, to read their pronouncements, you wouldn’t have had the slightest idea that a terrible and monumental crime had been committed against innocent Israelis, because they made no reference to it.

It is an irony that many of those who gloried in Hamas’s attack on Israel see themselves as anti-racists whose goal is to create a more just and equitable world. And it is a further irony that many of them have condemned and sought to cancel their political adversaries for using speech that was somehow “violent”, even when it incontrovertibly wasn’t. Perhaps these people are unaware of this and of Hamas’s explicit and genocidal racism towards Jews, or perhaps they just don’t care. But their indifference to the systematic slaughter of innocents by Hamas suggests a grotesque devaluation of human life that borders on evil.

Geras knew all about evil and the all-too-human capacity for it. Evil, as he saw it, wasn’t some metaphysical entity that mysteriously ebbs and flows into the world, but is something that men and women do to one another. Like Dostoyevsky and Conrad, whom he had closely read, Geras was acutely alive to the darker emotional forces that animate not a few of us: resentment, greed, spite and the horrible allure of bloody vengeance and violence. It is hard to imagine how he could not have been so attuned, having spent so much of his academic career thinking and writing about the Holocaust and crimes against humanity.

Although he saw much of value in Hannah Arendt’s work on the “banality of evil”, he was aware of its explanatory limits, because it failed to capture the sheer bestiality and sadism that marked so much of the killing in the Holocaust. Arendt’s emphasis on the “social and administrative structures” that facilitated the industrial slaughter of the Jews, he wrote, “gives insufficient weight to — where it does not altogether deny — those human-natural impulses of cruelty, the actual enjoyment of the misfortunes of others, regularly unleashed when the usual restraining circumstances allow them to be”. Anyone who has followed the reporting and testimony coming out of Israel over the last few days will be hard-pressed not to use the word “evil” in trying to make sense of the horror that was inflicted there. But it’s obviously not the kind of evil that Arendt had in mind when she described Adolf Eichmann as “neither perverted nor sadistic…[but] terribly and terrifyingly normal”.

From an ethical perspective, anyone who goes door to door machine-gunning defenceless civilians, including babies, and kidnapping women and children, forgoes that descriptor. What they emphatically are not, as Arendt had described Eichmann, is “thoughtless” with an “inability to think”. On the contrary, these Hamas murderers can and did think. And they had no doubt spent a lot of time wolfishly fantasising about how they would inflict maximum degradation on Jews. And they would have been able to entertain these demonic thoughts because they were raised in a culture that is saturated in a genocidal hatred toward Jews.

Despite this, Western liberals tend to be uncomfortable using the term evil, unless they’re applying it to the historical record and foreign policies of their own governments. Geras was a trenchant critic of that schizoid impulse — not because he thought Western societies were above criticism or had not done terrible things in the past, but because he found it dangerously reductive. Not all the ills of the world stem from the West, he argued, just as not all resistance to the West is driven by a humanistic impulse to change it for the better. Geras warned that Islamist fanatics had no such impulses and that, in an Islamist utopia, progressive liberals would be the first to be cleansed from its dominion. Unlike so many of his colleagues on the Left, he had no illusions about the purity or sanity of the underdog.

At the same time, he never lost hope in the idea of a better social order free of the familiar horrors of human history, although he was always more of a “pessimism-of-the-intellect” type himself. He worried that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians would worsen, and that, as he put it, “it may yet turn into a further great catastrophe for the Jews, one way or another”. Optimism is certainly hard to cling to these days, but in a political climate poisoned by tribal division and creeping nihilism masked as progressive activism, Geras’s voice — sane, humanistic and proportionate — is now more urgent that ever.


Simon Cottee is a senior lecturer in criminology at the University of Kent.


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Stuart Bennett
Stuart Bennett
6 months ago

I’ve fully realised now after always considering to be on the left in some degree that the great deception left wing thought has pulled off since it’s inception is that it cares about people. The fact is it cares about its ideology and nothing else. Whatever gets in its way must be destroyed. It’s morally bankrupt and always has been. It’s disgusting.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

Or what is pretty much the same: it thinks of people in the abstract, as variables in its ideological calculus. Not real people, but ciphers.

I think you see this in the way they assume they are speaking for large numbers of people who they assume to have a single viewpoint. Or if they don’t it’s false consciousness, internalised misogyny or racism and the rest. It used to be the working class, now it’s women or people of colour. Remarkably quite a lot of them don’t even belong to the groups they claim to represent.

Stuart Bennett
Stuart Bennett
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Indeed. Have you noticed how no one on the right wants anything to do with the far right but the entire left is cowed by the far left? Cowards, cry bullies and weaklings.

It’s obvious why the left supports Islamic terrorists. They believe the same things. Original sin, hereditary guilt, women should be quiet and do as they’re told, belief in paradise/utopia and that their ideology is the only way to get there and the whole world must submit, and anti semitic.

Last edited 6 months ago by Stuart Bennett
Patrick Turner
Patrick Turner
6 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

The Cottee article, to which your comment presumably speaks, discussed the moral repugnance of an avowedly left-wing thinker (Norman Geras) to these kinds of simplifications/reductions. To tar the whole political left as identarian apologists for terrorism, fundamentalism and every variety of self-indulgent wacko extremism reveals a woeful lack of knowledge of the former. A number of people who write for Unherd are on the left spectrum: Cottee, Terry Eagleton, Ralph Leonard and Thomas Fazi to name but some. All different thinkers with different politics, they would disagree about much. But none would conform to the caricature presented here. The fools who exalt in Hamas’ strike against Israel referred to by Cottee are NOT the part that represents the whole. The left has its own proud anti-authoritarian, democratic and humanistic tradition going back to the nineteenth centre, and represented by Morris, Cole, Serge, Orwell, Camus, Silone, Howe, Thompson and countless others including Geras.

RM Parker
RM Parker
6 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

Perceptive observations – I quite agree. Maybe it’s the political left’s susceptibility to “purity spirals”. Maybe.

Last edited 6 months ago by RM Parker
Nathan Sapio
Nathan Sapio
6 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

Agreed. Which in many ways just shows a confusion of terms. The “far right” is just a label that leftists apply, but the “far right” are categorically the same as the far left in terms of how they operate – they just disagree on the details/goals of the far left. But both are willing to tyrannize, inflame, tear things down, and act with violence.

Not to mention there is an order of magnitude more far left people than far right people.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Or what is pretty much the same: it thinks of people in the abstract, as variables in its ideological calculus. Not real people, but ciphers.

Yes. It’s a form of OCD, an almost manic desire to tidy up the world, making sure that everyone and everything is correctly labelled and categorised, like butterflies in a lepidopterist’s cabinet.

RM Parker
RM Parker
6 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Quite. Social micro-management.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
6 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

That is how Left movements attract disgust; the pretence of caring makes you worse than if you were honest from the start about the limits of your concern for others.

RM Parker
RM Parker
6 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

I find myself in similar straits. Yes to all the above, with the additional “feature” that, for the heretic, the wrong-thinker, there be no redemption. That’s what I came to be nauseated by: it’s not a movement of the compassionate, more a club for argumentative narcissists, on the whole. Stand-outs such as Geras were ever a rarity and I fear they may now be extinct.
I think it was PJ O’Rourke who defined a liberal as somebody who “loves the crowd and treats their family like $h1t”. Seems a fair description, now I come to reconsider it.

Nathan Sapio
Nathan Sapio
6 months ago
Reply to  Stuart Bennett

If you put the idea of People over your any one person is able to be treated, you allow for great evil. Paul Johnson in Intellectuals described the dividing line as (the left) being able to think the People are idealized while being able to have no regard or even malice towards any person, while the alternative is (the pragmatist) being able to realize that People are at best a mixed bag and gratefully connecting with as many persons who you may find are surprisingly good.

Glyn R
Glyn R
6 months ago

There are many wrongs that can be attributed to the Israeli government but I agree that the callous disregard for the horrific massacre of innocent people by Hamas self-righteously displayed by tens of thousands in the UK has left me shocked to the core and very worried in deed. I was brought up to question the treatment of Palestinians but nothing prepared me for this.

Last edited 6 months ago by Glyn R
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
6 months ago

Thank you, Simon. For putting this piece up today. Adele Geras

Margaret TC
Margaret TC
6 months ago

‘in an Islamist utopia, progressive liberals would be the first to be cleansed from its dominion’ – yes, together with the homosexual and trans communities they claim to support. The contradictions of the ‘progressive’ ideologues need to be exposed!

Rita X Stafford
Rita X Stafford
6 months ago

Once you walk away from the left, you see how obsessed it is with shameless, self proclaimed virtue, and doesn’t care to actually spend “quality” time with the people it professes to live and die for. And to paraphrase Donald Trump, ‘and some are very nice people.’ After 30 devoted years on the political and cultural left, I recovered my mind and never felt better, freer or more connected to my fellow human beings, which, imho, comes about through self restraint, not being afraid to be alone, and tempering resentment each time it rears its ugly head.

David Morley
David Morley
6 months ago

What they emphatically are not, as Arendt had described Eichmann, is “thoughtless” with an “inability to think”. On the contrary, these Hamas murderers can and did think. And they had no doubt spent a lot of time wolfishly fantasising about how they would inflict maximum degradation on Jews. And they would have been able to entertain these demonic thoughts because they were raised in a culture that is saturated in a genocidal hatred toward Jews.

Have they not been rendered, or rendered themselves, literally unable to think. Not thoughtless in the sense that Arendt described Eichmann, but thoughtless nontheless.

Jennifer Lawrence
Jennifer Lawrence
6 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

But you’ve exactly described the way in which Arendt describes both “thoughtless” and “normal” in her earlier essays on totalitarianism — a mode of emptied, “thoughtless” being produced in a society where it is only “power” and not some attempt to materialise a notion of the good that organises the scope of political action. I would say that she goes as far as to say that a man like Eichmann, produced by such a mob, can have no thoughts because he has no will because his subjectivity was never determined by his choices but was rather a kind of subjecthood ever produced by “power”; without it, he is a helpless man who cannot even conceive of himself.

Paul Beardsell
Paul Beardsell
6 months ago

Hannah Arendt is the last person who would support the revenge sought both sides.

Paul Beardsell
Paul Beardsell
6 months ago

When one identifies the evil wrongdoings of one side that doesn’t make the other side the good side. One side can act better than the other side and still itself be evil. Objectively how does one measure the two sides up, if one wants to do that? Why not condemn both sides for their misdeeds? I think that’s the only honest way forward. But to many it’s as if Israel has never misbehaved, and to others it’s as if the Palestinians etc etc. Here at UnHerd and so many other places too, no one ever mentions the 250 (including 47 children) of Palestinians killed by Israelis in the West Bank alone this year, before the Hamas atrocity. [Please see I am not mincing my words about Hamas.] What concerns me now is the exchange rate, what is one Palestinian life worth measured in Israeli lives, and vice versa. Each side is not satisfied with the eye for an eye, they want more. I see the bloodthirsty barking for revenge both sides. Both sides hate. Some here too.

Leejon 0
Leejon 0
3 months ago

Brilliantly said, as usual.

Steve Hall
Steve Hall
6 months ago

Latest in a procession of poor Unherd articles about this murderous conflict. There’s such a proliferation of actual violence and so much atrocity propaganda flying about the place from both sides it’s impossible to apply the ethical and ontological certainty required to make ‘evil’ an appropriate term. As the BRICS expansion gathers momentum and global decoupling takes shape on the back of the energy transition, the situation on the Middle Eastern, Eastern European and the Far Eastern fault lines is complex and highly explosive. It’s never been more likely that at least some of the more significant Arab/Muslim nations will transcend their atavistic differences and forge economic and military alliances. Even if temporary, that would be a tectonic power-shift. China and Russia, now major suppliers of arms and tech, are refusing to condemn Hamas. Underneath the state propaganda, the US population is making isolationist noises. Geras wasn’t the best thinker, but he was good enough to see that future developments would put Israel – itself internally torn between liberal democracy and Zionist ethnostate with the latter currently in ascendence – in a dangerous situation. In a sane world, the UN would intervene to separate the Hamas and Likud lunatics. But that sane world was never established, despite some good intentions in the immediate aftermath of WWII. Sorry, but right and wrong are evenly distributed in all the current conflicts. If MAD holds sway we won’t annihilate ourselves, but anyone who has given the details of the fall of Mycenaean or Roman civilizations some thought will see the parallels – Dark Age ahead, I’m afraid.

Last edited 6 months ago by Steve Hall
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Hall

Interesting point

Simon Tavanyar
Simon Tavanyar
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Hall

“Right and wrong are evenly distributed.” ? You must be out of your mind

Paul Beardsell
Paul Beardsell
6 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

This year before the recent Hamas atrocities 250 Palestinians (including 47 children) had been killed by Israelis in the West Bank alone. In response to the killing of 1400 by Hamas we now have thousands killed in Gaza by Israeli bombing and shelling. Most years more Palestinians are killed than Israelis. How do you want to measure relative evils here? By number of body bags? Sq.km of land stolen? BOTH sides are guilty of evil misdeeds. Relative evilness is hardly the point, but if you’re keeping score, what are you counting? I am not an apologist for Hamas, read what I write, but the idea that there are not two bad actors here is just false.
The Western reporting is for the most part not balanced. I note that no pictures of the 47 dead Palestinian children have appeared in the Western media.
Both sides are acting badly.

Last edited 6 months ago by Paul Beardsell
Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Hall

You’re down with me in on the naughty step for a great comment.

Steve Hall
Steve Hall
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Ta, and I think the only takeaway insight from the comment sections is that Unherd has not attracted the balanced, heterodox readership it allegedly wanted. Or maybe it never did. Or maybe the silent readers who don’t comment are more balanced. Who knows? This is one reason why Dark Ages are called Dark. This time round it won’t be the lack of recorded commentary but complete overload – a dense, dark cloud of bullsh*t in which everyone misrecognises everything.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago

Dear me, the second article here about ‘evil’ in the past few days. As I explained in response to the last one, I avoid the use of the term and its cognates (‘demonic’ crept in here, too) because I am an atheist. There is no metaphysical force of ‘evil’ external to us. 
Does ‘evil’ exist in some non-metaphysical sense, as the author suggests? Possibly, but only as an arbitrary label; we could use another word for it instead. But no, people use that word with all the metaphysical baggage it carries with it; whether the speaker recognises that or not, other people hear it differently.
Separately from that discussion, it bothers me that there is continuous smearing between protestors who legitimately care about what is happening to civilians in Gaza and (expletive deleted) people who celebrate the killing of Jews or the terrorism of Hamas. This is a blunt weapon. It has been used continuously to attack Kellie-Jay Keen and the ‘Let Women Speak’ events because a couple of far-right people attended. Protestors against lockdowns and other pandemic measures were continually attacked by the media, asserting a connection between the ‘far-right’ and ‘conspiracy theorists’, again sometimes based on attendees, when it turns out in retrospect that protestors had a genuine case, even if some of their reasoning was more intuition-based than reason-based. Nobody can control who turns up at a protest.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

If you’re referring to the article which used both “evil” and “Evil” as terms of reference, i think you’re confusing the two. The latter is indeed a meaningless metaphysical-type construct which i pointed out in comments to that article; however, the concept of “an evil act” has some usefulness as a descriptor for that which lies within us, mainly buried beneath our layers of civilisational compliance with norms.

Having said that, it’s important not to become embroiled in conceptual analysis unless it serves a purpose in the face of those acts perpetrated by Hamas, which amply “demonstrate” what humans are capable of, without invoking demons.

Last edited 6 months ago by Steve Murray
Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

My point is that the term may not be confused by the speaker, but it has the potential to confuse the listener.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

It’s a fine point, but that could equally apply to many terms, depending on such factors as the previous experience of their use and context by the listener.

We shouldn’t refrain from using such terms, but should refrain from mis-using them.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

It’s my choice not to use it, and I have explained why. Downvoting indicates that some think that indicates some moral deficiency on my part.
People can use whatever terms they want, but being chided for not using somebody else’s preferred language is another matter.
Labour looks likely to mandate speech ‘norms’, with up to 2 years in prison for misgendering somebody. Does anybody here want to see that?
The right-wing press is having a meltdown about the BBC not using ‘terrorist’. I use that term; I would prefer the BBC use it, but not that they should be mandated to do so.
My view is that the powerlessness people feel about the horror in Israel and Gaza leads them to attack each other and police each other’s language in order to somehow feel involved, that they are doing something for what they feel is right.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

There was actually a piece written by John Simpson on the BBC the other day explaining why they’ve never used the word terrorist in their articles which actually changed my opinion on the matter. They’ve never used it for the IRA, the ANC, ISIS etc as it’s their attempt at neutrality as different groups can have different opinions so they’ve always the word militant instead. They only use the word terrorist for those convicted of terrorism charges.

Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

I don’t think I believe that they didn’t use the word to describe the IRA. Whatever words they used, they had to apologise to Jerry Adams for their treatment of the organisation.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
6 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The BBC seem too have used the term ‘terrorist’ to discribe the shooting of two Swedes in Belgium recently. Did they know his name and thst he had/hadn’t been convicted of a terrorist act?

Guy Pigache
Guy Pigache
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

You are being downvoted for going on about the metaphysical concept of evil when plainly it is in plain sight. A tin ear I think is the phrase

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Guy Pigache

The metaphysical concept of evil is?

Jane Watson
Jane Watson
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

“being chided for not using somebody else’s preferred language is another matter”.

But you are chiding people for using their preferred language?

Your ‘dear me, here we go talking about evil again’ was bizarre to me. As if being an atheist precludes the concepts of goodness and evil?

People are capable of evil; I believe all people probably are, in certain circumstances. Most people are capable of goodness, even psychopaths.

Civilisation, and the rule of law, attempts to ‘bring out the best’ in humanity (by outlawing the worst) and our Western version is founded on Judeo Christian ethical principles.

People expressing their horror at terrorism in Israel is ‘doing something’. It is acknowledging evil, denouncing murder, rape and torture, mourning the loss of precious lives and valuing the ethical principles we try to live by.

It is, in short, trumpeting Western civilisation in the face of medieval (or whatever) barbarism. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Personally, I wish more people were doing it.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

There is Evil in the world. I have faced it and fought it.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Are you an exorcist?

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Funny you should say that, but I have witnessed some kind of demonic possession and, during that time, felt and heard a presence that can only be described as evil.
On a more mundane level the line between good and evil passes through us. It is not out there, but within. When we allow our pent-up rage and hatred to justify the slaughter the of innocents we have given ourselves over to evil.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
6 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

You got it right the second time, using “evil” instead of “Evil”.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

We’ll have to differ on the existence of demonic possession.
Why is it important to insist that a particular term ‘evil’, one with metaphysical baggage and a long religious history, is the only word we can use for an aberrant psychopathological state?
Why get hung up on insisting that this word is used? We could use many words – ‘depraved’, ‘psychotic’, ‘abominable’, ‘atrocious’ etc. or a combination of them. We could use other words that don’t have the baggage attached to them, for ultimately, the reasons for this are rooted in our brain functioning.
I don’t care if you want to use ‘evil’, but I find it peculiar to publish two articles about why we must use this word, and then get angry when somebody doesn’t want to use it.

William Amos
William Amos
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

 “TIs the eye of childhood that fears a painted Devil….”
Evil, rather like God, has a way of asserting it’s reality whether you believe in it or not.

Last edited 6 months ago by William Amos
Ddwieland
Ddwieland
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

We could use many words – ‘depraved’, ‘psychotic’, ‘abominable’, ‘atrocious’ etc. or a combination of them.
“Evil” is a more effective and descriptive term precisely because of its “baggage”. Wordiness fosters/supports evasion.

Dominic A
Dominic A
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

I am an atheist, and whilst I see the problems you mentioned, I think ‘evil’ is a useful, even essential word to describe scenarios where people are motivated (consciously or unconsciously) to do vicious harm. It’s at the hard end of the sadism scale, and is a genuine psychological phenomena.

Last edited 6 months ago by Dominic A
Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Dominic A

I agree on psychology, but see my reply to Julian above.

Graham Strugnell
Graham Strugnell
6 months ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Phenomen

Dominic A
Dominic A
6 months ago

ooh you’re evil!

Simon Tavanyar
Simon Tavanyar
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

“I avoid the use of the term [evil] … because I am an atheist”
The belief in an extant evil is a spiritual, not a materialistic concept. It doesn’t make you smarter to be an atheist, it just means you have a strictly materialistic understanding of the universe. Fine.

Last edited 6 months ago by Simon Tavanyar
Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

I never said it made me smarter. I envy believers.
The first article was more rooted in a spiritual understanding of the word, this one more in material one. My point is that the two conceptions of the word are confused with one another in such a way that I avoid using it so that my words are less open to subjective reinterpretation.

T Bone
T Bone
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

I have no idea why people downvote thoughtful comments even if they disagree. I disagree with your first two paragraphs but wholly agree with your conclusion which is the meat of your argument.

Jordan Peterson has an interesting point about how Metaphysical Biblical notions of Good and Evil seem to touch the Material World at a point because Christ can be described as the Logos. I’ve read enough of your posts to know that you’re effectively a Rational Empiricist. Those are allegedly two different strains of thought but if someone starts with strict adherence to Empirical principles and then rationalizes their findings with Humility, they will end up grounded in an extremely similar if not identical worldview to Christianity. By that I mean the idea that life is meaningful. That every individual matters but no individual is inherently more important than another and that all people are broken and searching for meaning. I find these to be fundamental truths that can be deduced with logic.

As a note, I’m aware of why Atheists/Materialists find Science incompatible with the Bible. I would just note that strict adherents of Christianity have made remarkable contributions to Science. I think the reason is because Christians believe God made the world so it could be understood. For instance, James Clerk Maxwell’s Electromagnetic Theory unified Physics. There would have been no Einstein without Maxwell’s equations. Gregor Mendel was a monk. Had the Soviets applied Mendelian Genetics instead of the Lamarckism of Acquired Traits, they would have avoided mass crop failures and the Holodomor.

Faith, Hope and Love can be seen as Utopian social constructs that promote stability. But they’re universal notions that prevent the world from collapsing into moral and cultural relativism. Thinkers like Voltaire said If there was no God, it would be necessary to invent him. This quote is seen as a rationalization of the God Myth to create stability. But, if God is a Myth, the specific Myth would still need to conform to the Correspondence Theory of Truth or else it would be a fad. I think that’s the reason Christianity has such staying power. It’s rational and actually conforms to “lived experience” unlike the Woke Theories that are just Gnostic Heresies that stand Christ upside down.

The Bible tells that if People don’t believe in God, they will create their own Golden Calf to worship. That’s what the Soviets did with the Proletarian Science and every society bows before some Transcendent principle. Its necessary to function. Everyone has Faith in something. This is not an attempt at persuasion. I just think if Scientific Humility is your principle than you’re going to find that a lot or your allies are Christian (and Orthodox Jews) for that matter.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
6 months ago
Reply to  T Bone

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Sort of; I am broadly Kantian, both metaphysically and morally.
For Kant, the noumenal (things in themselves) are unknowable, but we can have objective knowledge of the phenomenal world, which exists externally to our minds. (I have, however, little faith in much of what passes for science these days, but that is another matter.)
I’ve always found his views on religion – to an extent, God, freedom and immortality are to be found in the noumenal – both rather impenetrable and driven by cultural context. I think that he would have found Buddhism a better fit for his philosophy than Christianity, as do many others.
Nietzsche also informs my worldview. However, with the ‘death of God’ and the exhortation to go ‘beyond Good and Evil’, we ended up in the moral relativism you refer to, which couldn’t last. I broadly subscribe to Douglas Murray’s ‘Madness of Crowds’ theory, combined with Andrew Doyle’s ‘New Puritanism’. Many have now replaced Christianity with something that, in many ways, looks a bit like it, critical social justice. As Doyle argues, the difference is that the woke believe they are in possession of moral certainties; there is no humility.
So yes, we struggle to survive without meaning, and maybe we would have been better off sticking with Christianity, given how much it informs us (Peterson, Holland, others), but stripping it of the supernatural. Many of its ideas can be traced back to Mesopotamia; it was an evolution, not a revolution, and in that, I see that humans naturally develop a fairly consistent set of values, and we don’t need to see those as God-given. For Kant, then, the categorical imperative gives us a way of deriving how to act by virtue of our abilities as reasoning beings, and we broadly arrive at Christian values by doing so.
‘Evil’ then has a long history, but for me, it reflects a psychological and social idea that became reified by the supernatural elements of religion. Shorn of those, it works, but it remains my view that it is confused between that broadly psychological meaning and a religious one. I think the two articles this week reflect that beyond their rather judgmental nature.
One last thing, if I had more bandwidth, I would listen to Peterson’s biblical discussions and understand a little more of what you refer to because I am sure it is interesting. I’ve never gelled with the psychoanalytic tradition though.

T Bone
T Bone
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Nik! Thanks for response. I have a ton to say but unfortunately no time the next few days. I’ll find u on another forum sometime and resume this discussion!

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Obfuscation is as bad as endorsement.

Ddwieland
Ddwieland
6 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Why in the world do you think “evil” implies religious belief? Ditto for “demonic”. What the concepts represented by these words actually require is a sense of morality, that is, moral standards. Belief in God is optional.Avoiding the use of the terms is simply an unnecessary restriction of vocabulary. We benefit from concise, direct language and thus avoid the confusion and misunderstanding of heavily qualified and wordy language.

jane baker
jane baker
6 months ago

Like those stupid Palestinians could ever have carried out such an effective and efficient atrocity without collusion.

jane baker
jane baker
6 months ago

So just because you object to a situation being engineered to enable and justify genocide that makes you Evil. Good way to shut down any sort of discussion,conversation,debate, whatever word applies.

Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
6 months ago
Reply to  jane baker

Free debate no longer exists – if it ever did. Now you have to show that you take sides and you take the side of the person who is paying.
On second thoughts, maybe free debate does exist – but in your own home away from prying ears.
In any situation where A is fighting/killing B, the winner of the debate is the one who knows the most history – and history can be bent out of shape to suit the argument.

Last edited 6 months ago by Caradog Wiliams