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I watched Hamas unleash hell The footage bore testament to an ancient hatred

The wreckage of kibbutz be'eri. (Amir Levy/Getty)

The wreckage of kibbutz be'eri. (Amir Levy/Getty)


October 24, 2023   5 mins

Tel Aviv

A handsome man in his 20s in a military uniform zips past me on a motorised scooter. A woman with a tattoo and piercings calmly sips a cortado in a coffee shop across from me. A young family bustles past. This is Israel in 2023.

I am on my way to a screening of “raw” footage of the 7 October massacres that Hamas committed against Israeli civilians. Atrocities that are being denied and dismissed across social media and in parts of legacy media internationally. “In 2023 we are still dealing with holocaust denial,” says my contact in the IDF media unit. “This event is an attempt to put that right.” This is also Israel in 2023.

Devices were banned. No photos or recordings. It is, we are told, just too awful. And so it is that at 11:30 local time around 250 international journalists file into a military base in a Tel Aviv suburb. Hundreds of bottles of water are laid out. The staff are smiling and friendly.

I’ve never seen Israeli press officers so professional and slick and — indeed — charming. If this sounds glib, it’s not. This is a country that has traditionally favoured hard power above all else, often to the detriment of its messaging. Now they are desperate to show the world what they are facing.

The venue is a lecture hall with a large stage. “October 7th, 2023. Hamas Massacre. Collected Raw Footage.” is the title on a screen that covers the back wall. We are reminded again that no devices are allowed. There are issues around the anonymity of victims, especially those still alive, raped or taken hostage.

IDF spokesman Daniel Agari steps up to deliver some preliminary remarks. “We want people to understand what we are fighting for,” he says. “This is something else. Something has happened to Israel. This is not about rage or righteousness but the sense that this is a crime vs humanity. This is good v bad. Death v life. These [terrorists] will do anything. [commit any crime]. And it’s nothing to do with Islam,” he adds. It is a refrain I hear through the event. Clearly the word has come down to make a clear separation between Hamas, the wider Palestinians and, above all, with Islam.

What is also clear is the emotion. Agari is technically a media mouthpiece, but he veers into rhetoric. “Why did they strap GoPros to themselves? Why do they call the family of who they murdered? Because they are proud of what they did.”

He continues. “Rape — where is Islam? Burn — where is Islam? Behead — where is Islam?…They killed babies, old people, sick people
we won’t allow the world to forget who we are fighting. Hamas wants dead Gazans. You don’t take human shields; you don’t burrow under hospitals otherwise. This is Hamas not Palestinians.”

He steps off the stage. The footage starts: we see several Hamas terrorists sitting on the back of a truck as it enters Israel. They whoop and cheer. They fan into the street. Shooting at cars. They drag blood-drenched corpses out of vehicles onto the street. A female body is thrown onto the road. “Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!” They cry.

Terrorists fan into streets and across a roundabout. They have the run of the place. The security failures here are monumental. Some men enter a kibbutz. An Israeli civilian car pulls up and the driver leans left to speak to the guard he assumes is sitting in the checkpoint. A terrorist emerges from his right and shoots. Blood spatters the inside of the car. It smears the windshield.

The screen cuts to inside the kibbutz. The view is from a GoPro strapped to the body of a terrorist. His automatic rifles juts out just like they do on the screen in Call of Duty. This is deliberate; Isis did the same thing. It is the gamification of terror.

A dog appears, running eagerly toward him. He lowers the rifle and shots at the animal. It crumples to the ground. Strangely, of all the killings we see on screen over the course of that morning — and we see slaughter after slaughter — this gets the loudest gasp of revulsion.

I am, I realise, watching a montage of atrocity. And it gets worse. A terrified Israeli man in his underpants, and his two young children, also in underclothes, run screaming. Thugs clamber down from a lorry and throw a grenade into the cubby hole where they have taken refuge. The father’s body falls onto the ground covered in blood. Terrorists take the two children — covered in their father’s blood — into a room. “Daddy’s dead,” one screams to his brother. “It’s not a prank. He’s really dead. I wish I was dead! I wish I was dead!” he screams. Even within the litany of horror I’ve witnessed in my career this is horrifically unsettling.

A new scene depicts a man in a football shirt lying on the ground covered in blood. He moans in pain. A terrorist picks up a hoe and starts smashing him over the head — over and over and over again. “Allahu Akbar!” he screams, over and over and over again.

A dancing woman appears on screen. She is dressed in a crop top and tiny shorts, laughing and smiling. In the next scene, revellers are crouching on the ground as terrorists steam across the field. Partygoers run screaming. People are dragged from their cars. Bloodied corpses are thrown into the dirt while Hamas cheer and whoop.

I am watching a celebration of life alongside the fetishisation of death.

Some audio plays and a translation of the Arabic pops up on the screen as a Hamas terrorist calls his father: “Father, I killed 10 Jews! Check your WhatsApp! I sent you the photos! Father, I killed 10 Jews! I killed 10 Jews with my bare hands. check your WhatsApp. Father, be proud of me!”

I’m starting to lose all sense of time. A terrified, handcuffed female hostage is dragged out of a truck amid cheering crowds. We are shown images of the burned babies, so small you could cradle them in the crook of your arm. One journalist tells me the blanket it was swaddled in is one of those given to newborns.

The terrorists shoot indiscriminately – even at portaloos, which they then film, displaying blood spattered toilet seats with pride. In a final scene terrorists break into an office and spy a man cowering on the floor by a desk. They bark questions at him. They’re quizzing him on something — he starts to shout Allahu Akbar! But clearly, it’s not enough to satisfy them and they blow him away.

The sustained sadism stops, finally. And I wander outside to drink water and decompress. We are called back into a briefing from General Mickey Edelstein from Gaza command. “They came to kill and burn civilians. Not military personnel. Civilians,” he says. “I’ve been fighting Hamas for many years, but I honestly never thought they’d be this violent.”

He continues. “We told civilians to evacuate northern Gaza. Yes. [we go in] and there are civilian casualties. But we are not looking for kids to kill. We are not looking to kill hostages because they are not walking fast enough. We do not find kids and then force them to go and ask their neighbours to come out, and then when they do kill them.”

He moves onto less emotive ground. “We have evidence of Iranian involvement,” he says. “I cannot elaborate too much, but there are trained cells within Gaza.” Written instructions were discovered on captured and killed terrorists, he adds. This may have been an orgy of sadism and bloodlust, but it was also a planned military exercise.

A question comes in about the huge security lapse that allowed all this to happen. Edelstein lapses into thought. “We failed,” he says quietly. “We failed.”

The event ends. I leave and reflect on what we have seen. Those images are but one horrific event in a broader conflict that is tragic in the truest sense of the word because there are no good options. The occupation, the suffering of Gazan civilians, the endless, endless violence. Israel is responding, because it has a duty to — just like it has a duty to safeguard the life of Gazan civilians.

But something else is clear, too. Something that the footage confirmed. What happened on 7 October had nothing to do with resistance. It had nothing to do with occupation or a one or two-state solution. It was about something far more ancient and atavistic — the desire to kill Jews wherever they are and whoever they are. And against that there can be no retreat.


David Patrikarakos is UnHerd‘s foreign correspondent. His latest book is War in 140 characters: how social media is reshaping conflict in the 21st century. (Hachette)

dpatrikarakos

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Jen Segal
Jen Segal
7 months ago

Thank you David. There’s so much denial out there – people conditioned to disbelieve Netanyahu, to disbelieve the US. Part and parcel of cognitive dissonance. Please keep reporting and revealing the truth.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Jen Segal

“ to disbelieve the US”.

After the disgrace of WMD and Iraq War II, do YOU really find that surprising?
You reap what you sow in this life.

Bernard Smith
Bernard Smith
7 months ago

Yeah your right Charles the people in Gaza are reaping what they sew, hope your happy now

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Bernard Smith

.

Last edited 7 months ago by Charles Stanhope
D Walsh
D Walsh
7 months ago
Reply to  Bernard Smith

Yeah all those women and children deserve every bomb and bullet

You people are sick

Jim M
Jim M
7 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Hamas could have put their rocket launchers on barges off the coast and launched from those. They need dead Palestinians so the West will call off Israel and there will be no repercussions of October 7th.

Marie Jones
Marie Jones
7 months ago
Reply to  Jim M

Israel will destroy large parts of Gaza, thousands of Palestinians will be killed, the war will end, millions in aid will flood into Gaza, Palestinians will receive little benefit and the multimillion dollar bank accounts and property portfolios of the Hammas leadership in Qatar will grow massively.

Jim M
Jim M
7 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

What you mean the Israeli women and children who were murdered on September 7th?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Bernard Smith

What has happened to your powers of comprehension? Or is English not your native tongue?
Incidentally it is SOW not SEW.

Richard Calhoun
Richard Calhoun
7 months ago

You expose your racism … to condone such savagery is to facilitate it

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago

Comprehension classes for you to I’m sorry to say.

Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
7 months ago

for you, too 
.

D Walsh
D Walsh
7 months ago

I’m NOT condoning savagery, I want it to stop. Too many people have died. Hamas has killed 1400+ people, I think this is terrible, so do you

But the IDF has killed 5000+ and is planning to kill far more. Too many people like you don’t have a problem with this. Why ?

And you call me a racist, time to take a look in the mirror, you muppet

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

Thank you for saving me the trouble of reprimanding Calhoun.
Poor chap he probably can’t help it.

Jim M
Jim M
7 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

It’s called killing the enemy. Did we worry that much about German civilian deaths during WWII? The US started 2 wars after 9/11. The deaths were not “proportional.”

Jackson Ramseur
Jackson Ramseur
7 months ago
Reply to  D Walsh

It’s stunning how few remain who can discern the moral ocean between tragic casualties of war and demonic murder

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
7 months ago

Is this the appropriate place to score points (true or not) about WMD and Iraq war?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Phil Rees

I am NOT scoring points as you so inelegantly put it .

I’m asking the rhetorical question “ Who would seriously ever believe the USA again after the WMD and Iraq War II atrocities”? Your good self perhaps?

Last edited 7 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
7 months ago

Or our own Government included; and you can include Covid in that equation.
What are we supposed to think, yes they lied bout all that but they would not lie about this.
On WMD, at the time I reasoned that a British Prime Minister would never lie about something so important

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago

I completely agree, our own Government, past and present is beyond contempt.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Phil Rees

Duplication.

Last edited 7 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Guy Pigache
Guy Pigache
7 months ago

Charles you have valid points to make but your writing is often downright rude. You could be more polite and get your points across.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Guy Pigache

Really?
Would you care to give me an example?

Janos Boris
Janos Boris
7 months ago

With the bodies of dead children by your side maybe you you don’t squabble over their haircut. It is not done , you know.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Janos Boris

I think you maybe missing the point, which has NOTHING to do with Hamas’s atrocities, but is all about whether ‘we’ still believe a word the United States says.

If I see a US officials lips moving I assume he is LYING, until proved otherwise. QED?

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
7 months ago

Unfortunately, and this is coming from an American. I agree. The US government is run by elites who are pushing their own ideology over the will of the people, and they’ve repeatedly demonstrated their willingness to use lies and deception to advance their agenda and hide the less popular bits from the people. Fool me once, etc. I don’t believe anything my government says without qualification, especially when it comes to anything in the Middle East. Furthermore, the failures of US policy in the region are partially to blame for this horror show. The US government chose to accept Hamas as the legitimate government of Gaza and attempted to work with them. Our government has been trying to play both sides to further their ‘one big happy planet’ globalist dream where everybody is free and democratic and we all get along with each other so there’s never any war or conflict. This is just another example of how they’ve failed the basic test of leadership, an understanding of human nature, including the darker side of our nature.
That said, this isn’t about what the Americans did. It’s about what Hamas did, and the Israelis, who I have far greater trust in, say they did. Further, they have video to prove their claims. Of the two sides in this conflict, I’m more inclined to believe the Israelis. This is not a time to quibble over details. It is a time to face the enemy and destroy them. We should all support Israel without question given what’s happened to them.

Last edited 7 months ago by Steve Jolly
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Exactly, I thank you.

TERRY JESSOP
TERRY JESSOP
7 months ago

Thanks Charles. Now I know you. I read your frequent contributions often. Now I won’t bother to read them any more.

Last edited 7 months ago by TERRY JESSOP
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  TERRY JESSOP

What do you disagree with precisely?

Graham Strugnell
Graham Strugnell
7 months ago

You need to go way. No one enjoys your posts and attempts at thinking.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago

Speak for yourself although, I haven’t noticed you before. Are you new to all this?

Incidentally why that pretentious cartouche? Do you see yourself as Hamlet perhaps?

Last edited 7 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Peter B
Peter B
7 months ago

Not true.
I frequently disagree with Charles’ posts (and sometimes even agree). But I often enjoy them and I want to see a diversity of opinion honestly and forecefully expressed here.
Censorship is never the answer.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
7 months ago

Taking out Saddam was a net positive for the world.

Last edited 7 months ago by UnHerd Reader
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

John Howard your late PM would have been a better choice.

Jerry Carroll
Jerry Carroll
7 months ago

Has anyone ever told you that your’re disgusting? No? You’re disgusting.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Jerry Carroll

That’s a rather uncharacteristic loss of temper Carroll, have you been drinking? Or do you also lack any powers of comprehension?

O. M.
O. M.
7 months ago
Reply to  Jerry Carroll

I don’t understand. The man said that the general public has been successfully primed by plenty of massive lying not to believe governments’ accounts. What is that makes him disgusting again?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  O. M.

Carroll’s an Irishman. Nearly all carry a massive chip on the their shoulders. Who can really blame them, poor old things?

Douglas Proudfoot
Douglas Proudfoot
7 months ago

It ain’t a war crime to kill human shields. Protesters have ignored that fact. It’s only a war crime to hold humans as shields for military targets. The ONLY war criminals are Hamas. Under the rules of war, any military installation is a legal target, regardless of whether there are civilians on or near the target. If there are civilians on or near the target, it is the resposibility of the controling authority, in this case Hamas, to evacuate the civilians as best they can. Hamas tries to stop civilian evacuations, because they want to maximize civilian casualties. Again, that’s Hamas’ war crime and ONLY Hamas’ war crime, no matter how many civilians are killed.

Hamas has over 400 km of tunnels under Gaza, but no bomb shelters for civilians. Hamas has supplies for months of siege, but Gaza civilians are already running out of drinking water, fuel and food. In short, Hamas values civilians in Gaza only as casualties and human shields.

Everything Hamas does is a war crime: genocide, killing babies, taking hostages, killing prisoners of war, using human shields and making no provision for the civilians under their control. Nothing Israel does is a war crime.

As a former USAF Officer, I was trained and remember the rules of war. It’s typical that leftists who identify as journalists haven’t bothered to look them up.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago

If you go back to the start of this little discourse you will note that I tangentially picked up on Mr/Mrs/Ms Jen Segal’s remark “ to disbelieve the US”, which he or she made about 13 hours ago now.

Thus I think you maybe missing the point, which has NOTHING to do with Hamas’s atrocities, but is all about whether ‘we’ still believe a word the United States says, in the face of the blatant lies about WMD to justify the Iraq War II.

In other words if you see a US officials lips moving you should assume he is LYING, until proved otherwise. A most regrettable state of affairs, but there it is. QED?

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
7 months ago

It’s good to hear that somebody can actually separate the good guys from the bad guys. It doesn’t happen often that an enemy so clearly and convincingly demonstrates their evil for all to see. There have been few situations I have witnessed in my lifetime that are clearly black and white, good vs. evil. This looks to be one of those rare moments. This is G.I.Joe vs. Cobra. In fact, it’s probably clearer than that, yet we still have people condemning Israel and cheering Hamas. I can’t help but feel it’s not a good sign for our civilization if we have this much trouble deciding who the bad guys are when they’re being this obvious about it.

Jen Segal
Jen Segal
7 months ago

No, not surprising, actually. And yes, you reap what you sow. Not really drawing the connection you are making, just saddened that Hamas propaganda is given more weight than that of an ally. And, of course, horrified by the slaughter of innocents.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Jen Segal

Do you really think that any true born Englishman gives a tinker’s cuss about Hamas and its ludicrously obscene propaganda? To lapse into the old colonial vernacular, they are just a bunch of uncivilised w*gs and thus beneath contempt.

‘We’ should know, we ruled them for long enough with a rod of iron. More’s the pity they were ever given independence, but you can blame the good old US of A for that particular blunder.

Peter Lee
Peter Lee
7 months ago

You are so wrong, Stanhope

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
7 months ago

Hamas murder of innocents has nothing to do with the US misguided Iraq adventure.

RM Parker
RM Parker
7 months ago

Thank you for doing that, David. I know I couldn’t. Even the description of what you viewed was hard to take at several points.
The sheer sadistic evil of what was perpetrated is hard to comprehend. Apologists for this atrocity put themselves beyond the pale of any civilised society.

Richard Calhoun
Richard Calhoun
7 months ago
Reply to  RM Parker

Worse than that the apologists are facilitating the evil

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
7 months ago

Richard, this comment is really quite offensive. Wanting to end the spiral of violence and extremism is not the same as “facilitating” it.

denz
denz
7 months ago

A theatre in Paris, a school in Beslan, a concert in Manchester, a village in Nigeria, a beach in Tunisia, a cage in the desert. These examples and so many more have nothing to do with Hamas, yet the phrase Allahu Akbar is the commonality with the depravity committed across the border from Gaza. It is no less than the exultation of evil. This is Islam.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  denz

Indeed, and if they were to follow the tactics of their illustrious predecessors THE ASSASSINS ‘we’ would have some respect for them.

As it is they obviously can’t*, and we shan’t!

(*Because they are just too damned COWARDLY in my opinion.)

Douglas Proudfoot
Douglas Proudfoot
7 months ago

Are there any war crimes you won’t excuse from our enemies based on your erroneous interpretations of the laws of war? You seem too believe Hamas can kill whoever they want, then run back behind their own civilian human shields and be immune from attack. However, the use of human shields is a war crime. Attacking military targets with human shields on or near the target ain’t. Civilian deaths in Gaza are Hamas’ resposibility, not Israel’s.

Civilian deaths in Mosul and Falujah were the responsibility of ISIS, not the US.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago

You misunderstand me. Everything they have done so far is an atrocity.
They have to learn to emulate their forebears,The Assassins, and follow their example if they have the stomach for it, which I doubt.

You might also like to read up on the subject, I’m sure you will find it most interesting.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago

It’s easy to misunderstand what you said, Charles You must take care to write with more clarity. Re-read what you write and see how it might sound to the reader. You often shoot off non-sequiturs just because you think they’re amusing.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Thank you!
I thought I wrote with perfect clarity, but have obviously deluded myself.

Your are correct I do try to lace my comments with a little humour if possible.

Sadly as at 22.22 BST my Chief of Staff of many years standing, seems to have suffered a major stroke, and is unlikely to see the Dawn. Thus this is probably my last epistle!

Consummatum est, as the Ancients would say!

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
7 months ago

I for one am sorry to hear it.

Niall Cusack
Niall Cusack
7 months ago

Tetélestai..

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago

I don’t understand that. A friend is dying so you can’t write comments anymore? Please don’t leave, there is only one Charlie!!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago

Would “we”? Speak for yourself.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I would.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
7 months ago
Reply to  denz

The apologists always claim that Islam is a religion of peace, but is the concept of peace even the same? I don’t think so. The meaning of peace in Islam is submission to the will of God, which does not match my definition of peace at all. I don’t require a deity to have peace. To judge a belief system, any belief system, look at its followers.I have been doing that for quite some time, and I am not impressed.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Very well put.

Roger Sponge
Roger Sponge
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Are all guilty by association?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago
Reply to  Roger Sponge

One could examine how the the student population in Germany supported the Red Army Faction and other terrorist groups; provided moral support, raised funds, provided legal support, provided safe houses, lent cars etc,. It was the provision of safe houses which enabled RAF members to evade capture for so long.
Red Army Faction – Wikipedia

N Satori
N Satori
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

The concept of submission is the heart of “Islam problem”. There will never be a reformation comparable to that of Christianity. The truth is in “the book”. It is the word of God and must never be questioned, discussed, doubted, interpreted.
Correct me if I am wrong but to be a good Muslim one must be obedient above all. One’s inner life is less important. Compare that with Christ’s depiction of mere rule-followers as “white-washed tombs” and the Christian concern with conscience.

Last edited 7 months ago by N Satori
Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
7 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Christians are also taught to be obedient to God, but also not to judge one another. Jesus condemned the religious zealots of his age, the Pharisees, as hypocrites who only followed the commandments for the sake of status in the eyes of their fellow men rather than out of love for one’s neighbors or obedience to God. It is not the act, but the intent, that defines sin, and separates good from evil. That distinction is the basis of much of our law, and has become so ingrained into western thought and culture that we no longer question it.
Also, let’s not forget the contrast between the biblical Jesus and the historical Mohammed. We don’t know much about Jesus outside the Bible because he didn’t do anything that appeared to be historically meaningful at the time. He didn’t conquer anybody or spread his religion at the point of a sword or lead a rebellion or anything of the sort. If he had, he would probably be mentioned more often by contemporary historians. Mohammed, of course, we know an awful lot about, because he built a small religious empire in Saudi Arabia and his immediate followers built it into a very large one. The contrast is between a man who rejected material wealth, material gain, conquest, and power in the material world against a man who embraced all these.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Why are commenters here obsessed with the “apologists” for Hamas”? They are marginal and irrelevant. The far more important question is why Western European leaders have given their endorsement to Israel’s collective punishment in retaliation. That is profoundly more disturbing.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
7 months ago
Reply to  Vern Hughes

“They are marginal and irrelevant”
They are obviously not marginal or irrelevant.
There is a reason why the BBC is whitewashing a terrorist organization and the Police is ignoring blatant calls for violence (while Jewish schools need to close for the sake of safety).

Will Crozier
Will Crozier
7 months ago
Reply to  Vern Hughes

If Israel’s response can be considered collective punishment, it’s not very punishing is it. “Hey Gaza, we’re about to blow up this military target, please could everyone there/nearby get out so no-one gets hurt unnecessarily?”

That’s pretty decent as far as warfare is concerned but maybe you disagree. Collective punishment would be completely indiscriminate bombings and the capturing/torturing innocent civilians. You know, the sort of things those oppressed freedom fighters do. Free Palestine?

james goater
james goater
7 months ago
Reply to  denz

“This is Islam”. Agree with you entirely and that’s why it is extremely surprising, to me at least, to see IDF spokesman Daniel Agari quoted in the article as saying “…it’s nothing to do with Islam.” Even a perfunctory knowledge of the vile Islamic State, or “The Caliphate” as its theocratic leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, arrogantly called it, would make it clear that the recent Hamas outrages employed ISIS tactics to the letter.

John Dellingby
John Dellingby
7 months ago

That was difficult enough to read, so having to write that after watching it first hand must have been something else. Sadly, in light of the absolutely shameful coverage of events from Western media in regards this conflict, it’s damning that this conference was needed at all. Thank you.

John Williams
John Williams
7 months ago

I have up until now refused to look at images of the barbaric acts of the terrorists as this whole situation is like a reprise of the Shoah. Then I read this essay and I was shaken to the core by its vivid and unavoidable descriptions of Hell.

What is that Islam constantly tell us infidels?

“Allah is merciful.”

Hamas and its supporters obviously worship a different God.

Last edited 7 months ago by John Williams
Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
7 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

The true horror is that many more people, who may not ever engage in such atrocities as committed by these monsters, share and justify the underlying beliefs and the hatred for Jews. Not all, of course, but many. And not just in Gaza, but all over the world.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Jews are an easy scapegoat, and that’s what it’s all about -having a scapegoat for the disowned parts of the hater. Self-hate projected outward, in this case onto Jews. It makes the hater feel better about themselves. Most anti-Semites don’t even know why they hate Jews.

Richard Calhoun
Richard Calhoun
7 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

If y read the article you would understand the author did not lay the blame on Islam

John Williams
John Williams
7 months ago

“But something else is clear, too. Something that the footage confirmed. What happened on 7 October had nothing to do with resistance. It had nothing to do with occupation or a one or two-state solution. It was about something far more ancient and atavistic — the desire to kill Jews wherever they are and whoever they are. And against that there can be no retreat.”

I don’t think he was talking about Zoroastrians. I could be wrong.

Last edited 7 months ago by John Williams
morna lawson
morna lawson
7 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

I’m not sure that it is clear that it’s not about resistance. Why can’t it be both about resistance and an atavistic hatred? Hamas are a death cult, but the political failures from all parties are why this happened. Israel financed Hamas when it first emerged to undermine Arafat – Israelis have admitted as much. The take it or leave it offers on the table at Camp David were never going to be acceptable to Palestinians. The agony of both sides is appalling and the Israelis and Palestinians have reaped the whirlwind.

John Williams
John Williams
7 months ago
Reply to  morna lawson

i suppose Camp David at least allowed Arafat to reclaim the Sinai for his country, Egypt.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
7 months ago
Reply to  morna lawson

“The take it or leave it offers on the table at Camp David were never going to be acceptable to Palestinians”

this is not true. They should have accepted

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
7 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

Merciful ?
Well, after reading about things like the Banquet of Blood, I suppose they have to find someone in Islam who is.

It seems in short supply.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  John Williams

‘They’ unwittingly worship the Goddess NEMESIS.

Nemesis is/was the embodiment of jealousy, envy and anger. No savagery is beyond reproach.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

What about Moloch ? Children were burnt as a sacrifice to Moloch.
Moloch – Wikipedia

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Yes I think I have seen some evidence of Moloch & Co in Carthage!
However my preference is always for Classical Greece and Rome.

Last edited 7 months ago by Charles Stanhope
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

Academics have been very quiet on this subject both in Carthage and pre Jewish Palestine. One aspect of Classical Civilisation and Judaism which is ignored is that they underwent a massive evolution in thought by not perceiving God/ the gods needed human sacrifice.
Hamas would appear to have returned to some Canaanite past, hence my mention of Moloch.

Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
7 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I’ve made the same observation, that the bronze age culture that Hamas is the most extreme outshoot of seems to favour a god that demands blood sacrifice i e the life force of living beings to sustain itself.

That would also explain the raging hate of jews in that god and its followers, since Yaweh is a god that forbids this kind of ”adoration” and is thus percieved as a deadly threat.

Andrew Vanbarner
Andrew Vanbarner
7 months ago

We in the west, I think, fail to realize how much of our worldview is formed by Judeo-Christian beliefs. The Enlightenment, the Renaissance, and even the Industrial Revolution probably wouldn’t have occurred without centuries of Christianity and rabbinical thought forming our psyches, as westerners.
There are of course positive aspects of any religion. But political harmony and a desire for peace, insofar as Islam is concerned, simply isn’t at present one of them. Much of the weltanschauung of Islam appears to center around either conquest or grievance, which encourages violence and cruelty.
Tales of Islamic warriors from history – Genghis Khan, Attila, Tamarlane, Suleiman, El Cid – don’t say otherwise. Their modern counterparts appear to be much the same.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago

I would agree to certain extent but feel that the Classical World, the world of Greece and Rome have had a greater influence. After all what was the Renaissance all about?
However the synergy between the two has definitely given ‘us’ an immense advantage it must be said.

Niall Cusack
Niall Cusack
7 months ago

Why have we forgotten those three golden books:
Erich Auerbach -Mimesis;
Ernst Robert Curtius – European Literature and the Latin Middle Ages;
Gilbert Highet – The Classical Tradition.
That was European Civilization.
All gone! What now?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

I think the development of Perspective by Brunelleschi was massive jump in human consciousness. Keep things in perspective is phrase which we losing rapidly.
It was likley that the Greeks developed Perspective but it was lost post 410 AD.
The Greek idea that proportion and symmetry leads to beauty, the Golden Mean, creates a sense of balanced order.The Greek ideal of the human body is that of body which is athletic and graceful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_of_Knidos
Agias
Pankration – Wikipedia
Compare Agias, a Pankration Champion with body builders.
da Vinci’s Vetruvian Man is an understanding of the proportions of man.
Engineers say ” That which looks good works well”. The accoustics of St Paul’s, the aerodynamics of the Spitfire and the Severn Suspension Bridge are all structures and machines which are elegant, graceful and work incredibly well.
We are rapidly losing the concepts of balance, proportion, perspective, symmetry and entering a two dimensional if not one dimensional world- totalitarianism.

Nicholas Croft
Nicholas Croft
7 months ago

“After all what was the Renaissance all about?”
Coffee.

Rob N
Rob N
7 months ago

Genghis Khan was a Tengrist/Shamanist while El Cid was a Christian and Attila’s religion is unknown but he was before Islam.

Maybe that was your point.

Niall Cusack
Niall Cusack
7 months ago

Aeschylus’ ‘Eumenides’ puts it rather well.

Niall Cusack
Niall Cusack
7 months ago
Reply to  Niall Cusack

This was meant as a reply to Charles Stanhope’s comment on Nemesis!

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
7 months ago

My interpretation of the above described dog & pony show, which only the nation of Israel is obliged to perform for the global media, is that it’s their unequivocal method to expose where a blood soaked line in the sand has been crossed. And it follows that what will happen next is the dictionary definition of “vengeance”. Israel is telling the world, using uncensored visual and audio aids, that Hamas will be crushed, and that there will be unavoidable collateral damage, and that proportionality make sense when you’re slicing up a cake, but has no meaning in war. And, for those who think that Israel’s nuclear arsenal exists only as a deterrent, pray that Iran doesn’t decide to test their response to an existential threat.
Even though there are 50 Muslim-majority countries in the world…even though modern India, the world’s largest country, is mostly Hindu…even though Christianity is the state religion of 15 nations…after 75 years this planet of almost 8 billion people still has a problem with the existence of a Jewish homeland, a sanctuary for 7 million Jews, which is only the size of New Jersey. Israel.
I’m an American-Jew and a Zionist. If you don’t believe that anti-Zionism = antisemitism, then listen to Martin Luther King, who stated in 1968 When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism,”. If you don’t concur with Dr. King, then you’re a hopeless bigot…a full-fledged Jew hater. Own it.

Shoel Silver
Shoel Silver
7 months ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

For a time the debate in the media was whether babies were REALLY decapitated, as Biden claimed, or merely just shot and burned. That could only be an issue with an Israeli baby. Western media reporting in Gaza, on the other hand, has been unjustifiably credulous for years. Whether that’s antisemitism, or support for the cause, or protecting their reporter from Hamas reprisal, or merely avoiding losing their “privilege” to report, the effect is the same — lousy journalism.

Michael Brett
Michael Brett
7 months ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

That is an incredible response and absolutely tells the truth.

denz
denz
7 months ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

There is this idea that Hamas did these things because they are oppressed, Because the people of Gaza are oppressed by Israel. Yet we see Muslims in Australia, outside that iconic symbol of the country, The Sydney Opera House, cheering, celebrating , chanting “Gas the Jews”. The authorities did nothing. No reaction at all. Why?

N Satori
N Satori
7 months ago

Does anyone seriously believe that this clear proof of murderous brutality will change the mind of a single Lefty apologist? They will always find a way to justify the position they have taken. Aren’t they the good people, after all – ever on the side of the oppressed? How can the underdog ever be in the wrong? Pro-Palestinian activists tear down posters of the missing Jews lest the Palestinian-as-victim narrative suffer the slightest disruption.
Anyway, isn’t it time journalists stopped perpetuating that dubious moral distinction between Hamas and the Citizens of Gaza?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
7 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Those tearing down missing posters and demonstrating on behalf of the murderers should be made to watch the film footage David describes. In fact, there are quite a few commenters on UnHerd who should, too.

Mustard Clementine
Mustard Clementine
7 months ago

I would like to believe that might change their minds. However, based on the number of people I have encountered either dismissing any and all evidence of the events as Israeli propaganda, or acknowledging what was done but staunchly supporting the disgusting notion that it was a justified form of resistance to oppression, I am skeptical. I think anyone open to changing their view on this likely did so shortly after the attacks. Those who chose not to empathize with Israelis will probably only deepen those convictions from this point onward, no matter what evidence they may be presented with.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago

Exactly. Most people would rather die than be wrong!!

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Where one has to construct or undertake work where mistakes kill , one has to accept one makes mistakes. A wall is vertical or it is not; a plane or ship crashes or sinks or does not. However, for intellectuals you are correct.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
7 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

No, I don’t believe that for a second. Frankly, my cure for these apologists would be to send them to Israel, and to make them assist in cleaning up. My grandmother always said that experiencing is believing, and they would do something useful perhaps for the first time in their lives.
As for your second point that the distinction between Hamas and Gaza civilians is morally dubious at best, I wholeheartedly agree. Many Gazans voted for Hamas back in 2006, they continue to support Hamas, they cheer in the streets when Israel is attacked, and whilst they may not engage in terrorist acts, I don’t see much condemnation either. I have been studying Islam and the culture/history of the Middle East and North Africa for almost 20 years, and Islam with the exception of Sufism has an inherent violence problem stemming from its formative years. The lack of a reformation also plays a role, although one could argue that Wahhabism, which has its roots in the so-called purification of Islam by al-Wahhab, an 18th century Saudi cleric, was a reform movement, albeit it a conservative one that influenced the 19th century pan-Islamic movement. Al-Wahhab also formed an alliance with Muhammed bin Saud, the founder of the Saud dynasty. In a nutshell, Wahhabism and Salafism, which share many commonalities, have inspired unspeakable acts of terror, including 9/11.

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

I wouldn’t even say Sufism was peaceful everywhere. In Noakhali in 1946 by conservative estimates 6000 Bengali Hindus were brutally killed in one of the worst pogroms by a Sufi preacher and his mobs.
The history of Sufi Islam in South Asia is violent too. Many more examples right from mediaeval times exist.
Islam is inherently a violent faith.

Last edited 7 months ago by Sayantani Gupta
John Tyler
John Tyler
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Perhaps better still send the apologists to Gaza and allow them to experience firsthand the rule by Hamas.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  John Tyler

Exactly, particularly the “queers for Palestine”!!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Yes there’s nothing like experiencing something to change a mind. Also suggesting the pro-Hamas folk try to imagine how they would feel if it was their mother,spouse, or child who had been butchered or taken hostage.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
7 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

I am astonished by this comment, and amazed it is permitted. This writer questions the “dubious moral distinction between Hamas and the Citizens of Gaza”.
In authoritarian societies, the distinction between a brutal regime and innocent citizens is always difficult to discern. But it nevertheless exists. Nazi Germany, after all, provided us with many case studies in which this distinction was blurred, but it is usually possible to distinguish between a lack of moral courage in resisting tyranny if death is the certain consequence. and complicity in that regime’s brutality. Hamas is brutal..It often kills its dissidents. But please, most ordinary families in shops and schools are NOT the moral equivalents of Hamas even if they lack the courage to challenge it openly. Yet. it has become almost acceptable to say that they are legitimate targets for Israel’s retaliation. No, they are not. That is a war crime. Decent people should be shouting this from the rooftops, not defending it. I can’t believe this sentiment is being expressed here.

Last edited 7 months ago by Vern Hughes
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
7 months ago

Why did Daniel Agari say that the atrocities were nothing to do with Islam, if they were committed in the name of Islam? Shouting “Allahu Akbar!” surely demonstrates that the Hamas terrorists were acting under their understanding of what Islam expects of them?

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I think he said that because the Israelis are trying their best to get the pro-Islam West on their side. The theological conflict going on inside Islam is something all Western politicans are keen to avoid. (Of course, whether the ‘peaceful’ interpretation of Islam is coherent and viable is a different question. I’m no Islamic theologian either.)

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

In fairness (? If that is the appropriate word) there are stories that suggest these particular terrorists were given some kind of drug that day which promotes violence and removes all inhibition. IF TRUE that might suggest ‘Islam’ as such is less to blame. Perhaps others in this conversation know more as to the truth or otherwise of these stories.

Judy Johnson
Judy Johnson
4 months ago
Reply to  Phil Rees

The word ‘hamas’ means violence; violence was their commitment before October 7th.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

We do not want to offend moderate muslims among us. Now, do we? This is not my Islam, they would argue back!

Judy Johnson
Judy Johnson
4 months ago
Reply to  Vijay Kant

Their Islam is in the Qu’ran; pick and mix isn’t an option.

Zeph Smith
Zeph Smith
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Remember the security and trade treaties Israel was about to create with Saudi Arabia. Israel’s high level approach has been to forge better ties with their Islamic neighbors (other then Iran). The sticking point is Palestinians, whom the Arabic neighbors don’t like either (even Iran), but many of their populace do emotionally support. Israel does not want to blame Islam as a whole for what a small subset of believers has done – that would be counter to their goal of forging better ties.

Rob N
Rob N
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

There are people who do dreadful things and call themselves Christians. That does not mean they are in any real sense or that Christianity is to blame for them.

Having said that there aren’t enough Muslims who decry these terrorists and there are a lot of Muslims who support them: one poll said 20% of British Muslims had sympathy for ISIS and 4% would actively support ISIS. Terrifying indictment of both Muslims and having them in the UK.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  Rob N

Good point. I’ve never seen any Muslims or their supporters anywhere in the world protesting against the violence of Hamas. No placards saying “We support Palestine but not Hamas” or “Muslims against violence”. The lack of it says it all.

james goater
james goater
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Fully agree. Impossible to understand IDF spokesman Daniel Agari’s viewpoint on this issue. The savagery shown by Hamas terrorists was entirely consistent with that employed by ISIS in establishing the appalling “Islamic Caliphate”. Somewhere, within Islam’s holy texts, such savagery is permitted, even encouraged.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
7 months ago

Israel is more than not breaking any international agreements (not laws) regarding war. If Hamas continues as illegal combatants embedded within civilian populations and infrastructure, then ALL deaths resulting in Gaza are the fault of Hamas and the other genocidal fanatics.The world knows that allowing the Arabs in Gaza to continue to get away with its atrocities is just a recipe for more atrocities. Israel must extirpate the genocidal fanatics from Gaza, Judea, and Samaria. If they are hiding under a baby carriage, then they still must be eliminated.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

They are able to mingle with civilians that’s such an advantage.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
7 months ago

Nothing to do with Islam? I suppose they have to say that. It does rather beg the question though, of what was behind all the other massacres of Jews – the Baghdad farhud, Hebron, the Algerian and Tunisian pogroms of the early c20 and on and on going back 1000+ years. They can’t have been provoked by the state of Israel. So what were they about?

Peta Seel
Peta Seel
7 months ago

When I was at school the police came every year to give a lecture on road safety. All pupils 16+ had to attend because that was the age we could get our driving licences. The lecture ended with a film of a car-crash caused by a speeding car. All four occupants were teen-agers. The car caught fire, we saw it and we heard their screams. Drastic, perhaps, “triggering”, most certainly, but none of us ever forgot it. I understand why this footage cannot be publicly shown out of respect for the victims, but it is a shame it can’t be, especially to the young so enthusiastically attending pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  Peta Seel

Exactly. It’s too bad the massacre isn’t shown without being censored.

Anakei Ess
Anakei Ess
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Search Youtube Ben Shapiro Israel attacked
You may wish you hadn’t

Peta Seel
Peta Seel
7 months ago
Reply to  Anakei Ess

I really think I would rather not :((

Anakei Ess
Anakei Ess
7 months ago
Reply to  Peta Seel

I watched a Ben Shapiro video on Youtube, that had unexpurgated images on it, much as described above. I don’t know if it is still available. I had to cover the screen with my hand because I literally couldn’t watch some things (the beheading of a still living man with the hoe) search youtube Ben Shapiro Israel attacked.

David Jory
David Jory
7 months ago

Thankyou for watching this. I think Edelstein highlights the problem when they claim that this is Hamas not Palestine or Islam at the start of the article.
It truly is Koranic in its horror. Sunni and Shia united in hatred for infidels.
No their god is not greater,he is the most evil godforsaken nightmare,an enemy to all non Muslims.
If you think that is unfair look at the streets of London,Berlin ,Sydney etcetera. They are Muslims demonstrating in support of this.
Admitting this is terrifying but it is the only way to oppose and hopefully destroy it

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
7 months ago

David – thank you for doing your job. I could hardly read what you wrote and I can’t imagine how you actually sat and watched it.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
7 months ago

These footages should be broadcast worldwide, especially in Islamic countries and during pro-Palestine rallies. These Palestine’s sympathisers need to understand what Hamas stands for and what its true goal is. There are too many bleeding heart leftists in the world who have failed to grasp the nature of Islamic terrorism. The Palestinian cause is truly hijacked by wrong people with wrong agenda. Killing jews indiscriminately will not build Palestine.

P.S. Also send the link of this video to the Harvard University students’ societies for their curriculum in the contemporary world affairs.

Last edited 7 months ago by Vijay Kant
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
7 months ago
Reply to  Vijay Kant

I agree, just as newsreels of the newly-liberated concentration camps were shown to the wider world, with emaciated bodies piled on top of each other.

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
7 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

I remember seeing those concentration camp footages in the late 70’s as a school kid. Those images of piles of bodies being moved by earth-moving equipments made me understand what evil was.

Last edited 7 months ago by Vijay Kant
Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
7 months ago
Reply to  Vijay Kant

Same here, only it was the late sixties. A couple girls vomited and one boy half fainted but I still think it was an excellent lesson. The world has no “safe spaces” and it is butter to understand it than pretend otherwise.

McExpat M
McExpat M
7 months ago

When the press is wringing its hands over whether babies were decapitated, or just simply murdered, alongside countless other demonstrated atrocities of the day, you know we are in deep moral decay. The media’s instant pivot to believing Hamas regarding the shelling of the hospital is also telling and chilling. We fought this war already with hundreds of millions of victims. That we have to re-litigate the concept of Jew hatred and annihilation couldn’t be a more stark demonstration of an education system in the West that has inculcated the most perverse and dangerous views of an oppressor/oppressed system that is so insanely inaccurate that it can be nothing more than a cult. How do we reprogram all the young cult members? Perhaps signing them up to fight alongside Hamas for the liberation of Palestine. How’s that suicide vest fitting?

Peter D
Peter D
7 months ago

Thank you David, this is too brutal.

Avro Lanc
Avro Lanc
7 months ago

The progressive Left were falling over themselves to apologise for Hamas and blame Israel before the bodies had grown cold. They will of course write this latest proof off as ‘propaganda’ or ‘AI’

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
7 months ago

I think Biden got it right. Feel the same rage as after 9/11 but do not let this lead you into making the same mistakes that America did.

Last edited 7 months ago by Alex Carnegie
Terry M
Terry M
7 months ago

Bari Weiss’s podcast Honestly includes an eye-witness account from an Israeli soldier who happened upon a house in which parents and two very young children had been killed. Apparently the parents had been tied up and made to watch as the Hamas terrorists tortured the kids by gouging out their eyes among other atrocities. The parents were tortured and killed as well.

Jen Segal
Jen Segal
7 months ago
Reply to  Terry M

Bari has also begun posting audio conversations with Palestinians well worth hearing.

Angelique Todesco
Angelique Todesco
7 months ago
Reply to  Terry M

I just cannot hit the thumbs up button here, that hurts too much to read. I will never understand the hate towards Jewish people.

Richard Calhoun
Richard Calhoun
7 months ago

There can be no mercy in seeking out the #Hamas perpetrators of this twisted evil … they must be destroyed … they are physcopaths

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago

“A dog appears, running eagerly toward him. He lowers the rifle and shots at the animal. It crumples to the ground. Strangely, of all the killings we see on screen over the course of that morning — and we see slaughter after slaughter — this gets the loudest gasp of revulsion.“

That is an interesting observation that makes me think most of the audience MUST have been of Anglo-Saxon extraction or at least made of “the right stuff”.

Abe Stamm
Abe Stamm
7 months ago

A pet dog, in this circumstance, is a symbol of innocence. My own golden retriever would happily greet a monster, as she does everybody, tail wagging.

Last edited 7 months ago by Abe Stamm
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Abe Stamm

That is why the great Cynic philosopher, one Diogenes*of Sinope thought that Dogs were the greatest things there have ever been! And I for one agree with him!

In fact the very word Cynic is derived from the Ancient Greek word for Dog.

(*circa 330 BC, a contemporary of the homicidal Macedonian pygmy, sometimes referred to as Alexander the Great.)

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
7 months ago

What is the reason for your vendetta against Megas Alexandros?

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
7 months ago

I admit that I would have been one of them.

Niall Cusack
Niall Cusack
7 months ago

A very carefully selected audience, then, and forbidden to take photos……

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago

It is strange and I don’t understand that automatic response in myself. I can be watching some horror with empathy, but when an animal is abused I let out a cry. I have absolutely no control over it.

Chauncey Gardiner
Chauncey Gardiner
7 months ago

There’s a scene in the Woody Allen film Hannah and Her Sisters (1986) in which Max von Sydow recounts that he had watched an interview during which Elie Wiesel (or some such figure) queried “How could this [the Holocaust] have happened?” Max goes on to propose that it is not obvious why such things do not happen more often… or that maybe they do. One just has to look.
I will count myself in the “maybe they do” camp in that it is easy to find so much evidence of just this kind of barbarism if one affords oneself the luxury of looking back far enough or looking far enough across the world.
Good places to look includes times of transition. Consider, for example, the breakup of Yugoslavia. The killing at places like Srebrenica was shocking, wasn’t it? (It was shocking to me; at first I didn’t believe it, because it seemed like something out of the 1930’s.) But then consider all of the re-sorting of populations and revenge killing that occurred after the end of the First World War or the Second World War. The toll on Russia of the Russian Civil War, for example, far exceeded the toll of WWI. Consider of the re-sorting and killings (by the millions) that attended “Partition” in the Indian Subcontinent in 1947.
One film I cannot get myself to watch is The Painted Bird (2019). I read the book (Jerzy Kosinski, the author of Being There). The book may be fiction, but one can’t help but understand that it was inspired by the brutality of everyone against everyone in Eastern Europe as German armies swept one way and then Russian armies swept the other way.
Another film I can’t get myself to watch is Wolyn (2016). “Polish director Wojciech Smarzowski’s film ‘Wolyn‘ is the first to deal with the war-time Volhynia Massacres. With today’s Ukrainian crisis playing itself out, this raw and powerful movie is a reminder of crises past.”

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago

I cannot comment on the other instances you mention, but as someone researching the Partition years in India, I will say that most of the violence was unleashed by the Muslim League since Direct Action Day of 1946, with a clear game of ethnic cleansing.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

My Father was in Calcutta in 1947. He said he saw more dead bodies than 5.5 years of combat in WW2. The vultures were so gorged on human flesh, they could not fly.

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

It is an awful story…a clear plan of ethnic cleansing by HS Suhrawardy of the League and violence thus…the Labour Government appointed a Governor who stood by and didn’t let the army intervene ..
I am unearthing bit by bit. The Official Report of the riots still remains classified in the UK.
Was your father with any of the army Regiments who were forced to remain in the Fort William Barracks in August 1946?

Last edited 7 months ago by Sayantani Gupta
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

No his ship was berthed there. Various Indian Army and ICS warned Nehru and Mounbatten of the risks. When the rioting started Nehru ordered the Army not to intervene as it was an Indian problem.I think the original date for Independence was 1948 but was brought forward to 1947 because of the violence.
I think another concern might have been an invasion by the Afghans. An uncle who an ex Commando was stationed at the Kyber Pass with the Argylls.
As you know, The Punjab was very violent.
One of the problems facing the West is that since 1992, there have been no leaders with war experience or being involved with Indian Independence 1947 , Palestine 1948,Biafra late 1960s, Bangladesh 1970, Ethiopa 1970s and Cambodia under Pol Pot and therefore are naive and gullible when it comes to understanding the blood lust and bestiality of some peoples.

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I am referring to Direct Action Day which was a year before. This blame lay more with Bengal’s Chief Secretary RH White and the Governor who due to obvious instructions from Whitehall didn’t allow several Army units stationed to intervene. RH White’s memoirs and personal papers are not available online- I guess they may hold some answers.
Why Attlee decided as such is a mystery. Suhrawardy had changed the composition of the Calcutta police by transferring out all Hindu personnel and bringing in UP Muslims arbitrarily. So that once the League mobs started killing the police were either accomplices or stood back.

The fact that the British government still hasn’t released the Riot report shows there is something to conceal.

Of course Nehru and Mountbatten were culpable for 1947 events, as were many others.
The bringing forward of the date was largely Mountbatten at work. Nehru was pliable for reasons of a personal nature which are well known and involved Edwina M.
The botched up nature of the Partition by arbitrarily drawing a line leaving Muslim majority districts in India and transferring Hindu majority districts to Pakistan was an unfortunate and tragic outcome of this rush.

Agree with you on the second point. I have great admiration for many ICS men who held the fort in the tumultuous inter- war years in India. Some of them – like Dennis Kincaid were very gifted and sensitive men. They have largely been forgotten by today’s Woke mobs, but deserve to be recognised.
A lot of the old ” India” hands in both the armed forces and the civil services understood the complexities of colonial administration very well. Their experience could perhaps have been used more.

Last edited 7 months ago by Sayantani Gupta
Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

ICS/Army warned of the risks. What people ignore was that Britain was the largest debtor nation in the World, ÂŁ40B largely to the USA and wanted to reduce expenditure. The USA wanted to run down the British Empire for trade reasons. The Labour Party had no understanding of India and Attlee got on well with Mounbatten who was good at telling politicians what they wanted to hear. Wavell who was very intelligent understood the problems and told the Labour Party what they were but they ignored him. Wavell would have probaly produced a less violent transition.
Nehru did not want it to be seen that the British were needed to stop inter communal violence.
What it comes down to is those in power lacking in experience refusing to listen to those who possess it. To make it worse there was no electoral liability for Labour if violence became bad. Orwell in his essay points out that very few and practically none in the Labour Party understood India. This lack of understanding has led to The Jugoslav Civil War, rise of Bin Laden, problems in Afghanistan, etc

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

I entirely agree with you. And if you recall that Nehru himself was a Fabian Socialist who increasingly became enamoured of extreme Communism, you would realise how in synch he was with the Labour Party Establishment of the time.
Wavell was an honourable man. He hasn’t got his due credits in India as most of the historical Establishment is Nehruvian and Marxist. He helped to turn around the ill- effects of the Bengal Famine of 1943 too.
Hope to be addressing this theme in my writing on the era.
Could you suggest any specific references on Wavell’s communication with the Labour Government which I could access online?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

The National Archive at Kew would be good start. If you are an academic you may obtain better access to records. Also try Winchester College, his old school.
Suggest readings books by and on Wavell.
Archibald Wavell, 1st Earl Wavell – WikipediaI
Britain and especially the Army was very unprepared for war and Churchill had no understanding of modern mobile warfare.
Sensible ICS/Army Officers were aware that Dominion Status needed to be considered in the 1930s but all political parties were completely unaware of the realities.Wavell was bright, a scholar at Winchester, like Air Chief Marshall Dowding.Politicians do not like bright, tough experienced military commanders telling them they are wrong. Wavell probably told the truth and Mounbatten what they wanted to hear.
Good luck with your book.

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Thanks very much
I am actually a modern day ICS person myself. Not an academician as such but have written several books.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

You may want to check access to National Archive they are likely to to offer additional access to academics and perhaps writers . You could contact school of Oriental and African Studies, Uni of London and perhaps undertake the work as a doctoral thesis . Have you thought of contacting the English Speaking Union or Tata to obtain scholarships?
An uncle was on the North West Frontier in 1945 to 1947 as adjutant for his regiment, having served in WW2.
What Dad and my Uncle stated took place was somewhat different to what Mountbatten reported. Consequently, I consider your book to be very important. It has significance for Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka , Bangladesh and Burma and to an extent Tibet, a major part of Asia.

Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

Thanks, I am actually from SOAS myself, and had even started my doctoral work, but due to career reasons had to give up. They have an archives done by Andrew Whitehead but again with a Left centric bias.
This book project is unlikely to be popular with most establishment History as it is not Left centric. Consequently the conclusions are sure to be panned in some way or the other.
As a Rankean historian it is rather difficult to take an ideological cast of the Left. Believe in analysing events “as they were” and not cherry picked ” facts” to suit ideological imperatives as Marxist historiography since EH Carr goes.
The problem is to find primary sources. I have got some online access via Imperial War Museum, am yet to explore NAK in detail.
Wavell’s Viceroy Journal is something I want to read.
I don’t know about ESU, but Tata is quite Woke now- you may or may not be aware how their current Litfest in Bombay has descended into a platform for Hamas supporters( Mehdi Hasan etc)
Scholarships in any case would have age limitations, and I would probably have crossed that!
I would love to know if your dad and uncle had any written memoirs which I could access?

Last edited 7 months ago by Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
Sayantani Gupta
7 months ago

Which Orwell work are you referring to?
I haven’t found an online edition of Wavell’s Journal as yet, only exorbitantly priced Print versions seem to be available.

Lindsey Thornton
Lindsey Thornton
7 months ago

I am reminded of the TV mini-series The Promise, shown on Channel 4 in 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Promise_(2011_TV_serial)
I remember at the time feeling I had been ambushed somehow, led into thinking this was going to be a non-partisan exploration of the Israel-Palestine conflict, it was in fact blatant anti-Israel propaganda, full of anti-semitic tropes. Writing in The Independent, novelist Howard Jacobson said “Forget Holocaust denial. Holocaust denial is old hat. The new strategy – it showed its hand in Caryl Churchill’s Seven Jewish Children, and surfaced again in Channel 4’s recent series The Promise – is to depict the Holocaust in all its horror in order that Jews can be charged (“You, of all people”) with failing to live up to it. By this logic the Holocaust becomes an educational experience from which Jews were ethically obliged to graduate summa cum laude, Israel being the proof that they didn’t. “Jews know more than anyone that killing civilians is wrong,” resounds an unmistakably authorial voice in The Promise. Thus are Jews doubly damned: to the Holocaust itself and to the moral wasteland of having found no humanising redemption in its horrors. … the consensus says … Jews went through hell only to build a hell for others. Trying arguing otherwise and you are an apologist for that hell.” https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/howard-jacobson/howard-jacobson-ludicrous-brainwashed-prejudice-2273774.html
This consensus that Jews must be held to account and subsequently found guilty by default is evident in the majority of the news media. Back in 2000, I had this same view expressed to me by an intelligent and humane Oxford academic who no doubt had absorbed this from his contemporaries. I don’t see how this mindset would be changed by exposure to any number of horrific films of Jews being slaughtered.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
7 months ago

Africa in many parts since the withdrawal of the Europeans also comes to mind.

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
7 months ago

Many thanks for bothering to precis what you saw into a semi digestible format and all strength to your stomach for choosing to view this on other’s behalf.
A much needed dose of reality.
Why people assume that any rules can be applied and reliably enforced in a war is beyond me.
A question for anyone here who might have some first hand knowledge : Do the ordinary citizens of Gaza have currently / had in the past, any reliable democratic means of replacing Hamas with an alternative overlord ?
They last had a meaningful vote in 2006 ?

Last edited 7 months ago by Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Johan Grönwall
Johan Grönwall
7 months ago

A bronze age culture with a Moloch god that demands child sacrifice can’t exist next to a modern democratic society. I hope that this time Israel get it right.

Arthur G
Arthur G
7 months ago

I agree with you about Islam, but Modern Progressivism also has a Moloch God that demands child sacrifice. That’s probably why so many “Progressives” side with Hamas

Mike K
Mike K
7 months ago

Yes, we know and have been telling Western idiots this for years. And they still expect us to allow ANOTHER Palestinian state on the West Bank! The west shared Hamas’s bloodlust. Always have, always will. And our answer is no. Here we stand and fight to the death.

Ardath Blauvelt
Ardath Blauvelt
7 months ago

Sadly, the convergence, less planned than opportunistic I think, of so many events from Ukraine, to China’s antics, to the progressive western influence and weakness, has led to this moment. The west is in peril and as a result, so is the world. We teeter between uncertain and risky freedom or predictable, dependable, strong armed control. As Reagan told a room full of university students so long ago, “this is a time of choosing.” A new dark age looms.

Samantha Stevens
Samantha Stevens
7 months ago

In WWII, Allied troops killed 600K German civilians in bombings, 80K of them children. This was to fight Hitler and the Nazis. The loss of life in WWII was horrific, but should we have continued to appease Hitler as Neville Chamberlain did to avoid civilian casualties? Were Churchill and Roosevelt wrong? Hamas hides among civilians. Hamas brutally murdered and tortured hundreds of innocent people, raped women until their pelvises broke, beheaded babies. They want Jews dead. There can be no peace with them. What is Israel supposed to do? Seriously, what are your suggestions?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
7 months ago

There can be no justification for the killing of civilians. No excuses.

Rob N
Rob N
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Not even those who feed, pay, arm, supply, train, cheer or are about to join the military.?

Why is a man who makes the bombs, bullets, poison gas, atomic weapons less of a target than the soldier?

Guillermo Torres
Guillermo Torres
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Agreed. It’s a shame Hamas built 500km of tunnels for terrorists and not one bomb shelter.

Davy Humerme
Davy Humerme
7 months ago

I am going to a champions league game tonight where the leftist militant ultra fans in both sides plan to distribute Palestinian flags. Some will wear the khefiyah, some will display paraglider flags. Indeed they display their allegiance to Hamas to their own Israeli players routinely. These hard identitarian leftists like to rub their noses in it. My wish is for the home club to broadcast this wanton, hateful slaughter on the big screens before kick off. To give a reminder to these fans and anyone who would passively nod along that this was genocide. Now that the mainstream media mood music is all about besieged Palestinians, who uniquely in all of humanity are ascribed a state of total innocence, they could show it too.

Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
7 months ago
Reply to  Davy Humerme

The news footage I’ve seen of the protests features a staggering number of bright, new Palestinian flags, all the same size. That’s a pretty impressive supply feat by someone, and I don’t think it’s the owners of local corner stores. Usually, there’s something a bit ragtag and spontaneous in grassroots demos: you wouldn’t normally expect to see this kind of Olympics-caliber organization in a protest.

It seems the evil that’s on the march is in well-disciplined ranks. Too bad ‘The Marching Morons’ has already been used as a book title.

Last edited 7 months ago by Mark Kennedy
Wynn Wheldon
Wynn Wheldon
7 months ago

Thank you David. Very hard indeed not to believe that evil is not a real thing.

Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
7 months ago

Nothing will succeed in rehabilitating the image of the moral monsters of Hamas, certainly not the support of the equally ethically challenged anti-Semites in our midst who’ve chosen to join Hamas in the sewers.

Andrew Boughton
Andrew Boughton
7 months ago

Aside from morons, psychopaths and ideologues, the whole world feels crushed. Ideologues are the preceding, under cover.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
7 months ago

Gaza should be bulldozed in response, north to south, annexed and the land sold off or given to settlers. The existing people relocated to remove this virus of religious ideology.

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
6 months ago

This is premeditated murder, pure and simple. Murderers deserve to die, I can only hope that Massad will finish the mission that the IDF does not.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
7 months ago

If any group of people are brutalised and dehumanised for long enough, they will respond in a brutal and dehumanised way. It’s not rocket science. I am astonished by reports like this which appear to have just discovered that brutality exists in the world. Where have you been, David?
In Australia, British settlers practiced a systematic dehumanisation of indigenous people for a long time. It was brutal. The Royal Womens Hospital in Melbourne had a practice from 1910 to 1970 of removing indigenousl babies from their mothers at birth, never to be seen again. Was this worse than the killing of Jewish babies in an outburst of rage against Palestinian humiliation? After all, one was an outburst of fury. The other was sustained government policy over decades. Which is worse?
Is violence against Jewish people worse than violence against other folk? Many Jewish people seem to think so. David concludes by suggestion that “the desire to kill Jews wherever they are and whoever they are” is the worst of all possible sins. Isn’t it likely that any group of people imprisoned in Gaza by an occupying force will want to lash out against that occupying force, whatever their race or religion?

Last edited 7 months ago by Vern Hughes
McExpat M
McExpat M
7 months ago
Reply to  Vern Hughes

This comment is so obscenely off the mark. You are a symptom of a worldview regarding the oppressor/oppressed narrative that has infected the minds of an entire generation. This same cohort has zero historical acumen with which to undergird their toxic world views. May I suggest that you volunteer to fight alongside Hamas to liberate Palestine from their oppressors so you can become intimately acquainted with the ideology of wiping Israel and all Jews from the world? Sadly you will probably find yourself in a suicide vest. Until you set foot and live on Middle Eastern soil, you have no idea of the deep hatred for Jews that runs through the DNA of this region. You cannot fix that kind of hate.

Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
7 months ago
Reply to  Vern Hughes

(?) I don’t follow this reasoning at all. It’s incoherent to pretend to have anything against brutalization while simultaneously attempting to justify and excuse it. Either everyone is entitled to brutalize others, or no one is. If you think terrorist atrocity is a legitimate expression of political grievance, you’ve chosen the side of brutalization, period.

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
7 months ago

I wonder, how did they get hold of the footage? Was it taken from killed perpetrators or was it given to them by Hamas? I don’t understand what the point of the camera was.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I guess if it was recorded on GoPros, then it was taken from those attached to dead terrorists. If transmitted then or later, it was simply downloaded from the internet or intercepted.
Either way, it means that there’s probably a whole lot more.

Last edited 7 months ago by Simon Neale
David George
David George
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

“what the point of the camera was”?
What was the point of the whole bloody exercise?
The glorification of death perhaps.

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
7 months ago
Reply to  David George

Yes, but for whose benefit, theirs or to show the world at large?
I don’t understand the downvotes, I thought mine was a reasonable question.

Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Why did ISIS create its vile videos? I think it serves the dual purpose of documentation and glorification/propaganda. As for the intended audience, again, probably Hamas leadership (documentation) and potential recruits (propaganda).

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Their bragging rights to their friends and families in Gaza. 
You really need to re-re-read this article until it is memorised.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Sorry AX but some of us thought it was a daft question. Sometimes I have to go back to the beginning of an article before I too ask a silly question.

Anakei Ess
Anakei Ess
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I believe Hamas offered rewards – so a record for payment.

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
7 months ago
Reply to  David George

One of the points, apart from sadistic wickedness, was to provoke the strongest imaginable military response from Israel, and thus make any rapprochement between Israel and its Arab neighbours impossible for a generation. That is the political game being played here, by Hamas for the benefit of Iran. The dead civilians on both sides are just “the poor bloody infantry”.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  David George

Our (British) troops do the same. How do think Sergeant Alexander Blackman, Royal Marines was convicted of murder* in Afghanistan in 2013?

(* Subsequently reduced to manslaughter.)

Lizzie J
Lizzie J
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I think it’s clear from the article – sent via WhatsApp to impress your family and superiors. A real life video game where you brag about your kills.

Derek Smith
Derek Smith
7 months ago
Reply to  Lizzie J

Just like the shooter in New Zealand.

Neil Cheshire
Neil Cheshire
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Many Israelis have dual citizenship and immigration of Jewish people from elsewhere is encouraged. These horrendous atrocities targeting civilian men, women and children are a deliberate policy of Hamas and their sponsors to strike terror, frighten these Israelis to return to their country of origin and curtail the arrival of new immigrants.

Last edited 7 months ago by Neil Cheshire
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
7 months ago
Reply to  Neil Cheshire

The Israelis’ country of origin is Israel.

Neil Cheshire
Neil Cheshire
7 months ago

OK, country where they were born.

Jake Prior
Jake Prior
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Hamas published a lot of it because it’s good recruitment material apparently, so it was freely available to anyone that wanted to look. A lot of this was on Ben Shapiro’s youtube channel. It’s extremely disturbing, but personally I do think it’s best to confront reality, however dark it might be. It’s made me ask some pretty deep questions about the nature of humanity.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

The terrorists uploaded much of their GoPro footage of the carnage to the Internet. And posted some of this material on the FaceBook pages of the relatives of their victims as an act of spectacular cruelty..

Vijay Kant
Vijay Kant
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

The WhatApp massages sent from killed Israeli citizens’ phones could have been accessed! The Hamas terrorists were sending video footages to their families back in Gaza to prove their bravery. You need to re-read this article.

Avro Lanc
Avro Lanc
7 months ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

The footage was taken from the bodycams worns by Hamas terrorists after they were killed. The point of the camera was propaganda. Open your eyes.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
7 months ago

Living by the swords of IRGUN and STERN,
And foreign swords through AIPAC and JINSA,
Encouraging the swords of Zionist Settlers,
RESURECTION of the Swords of Islamic Horror,
Dying by the sword,

As was foretold

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

You mustn’t mention IRGUN or the STERN GANG or you will have a gaggle of male hysterics on your back!
To whit – Messrs Smith, Calhoun, Rees, Pigache, Boris Jessop, Strugnell and last but not least Carroll.

Frank Freeman
Frank Freeman
7 months ago

Many of the 1400 Israelis killed were actually killed by Israeli soldiers when they were shooting at the Hamas soldier who had taken them hostage. This is a policy of the IDF so that they cannot be used as bargaining chips. This was confirmed by an Israeli woman interviewed on Israeli Radio who had been taken hostage by Hamas with about a dozen others. She and a Hamas soldier who was taken prisoner were the only survivors of a group of about 40 Hamas soldiers and a dozen hostages who were all killed by Israeli soldiers. The Hamas soldiers had told her they had expected to meet more Israeli soldiers. (It appears they were moved from the border AFTER Egyptian intelligence had warned Israel about the attack) details are herehttps://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
7 months ago

Terrible as this is, I don’t imagine that it was any worse than Magdeburg, Nanking, Drogheda, or Berlin. We just have different media, plus the willingness to exploit it for terror or gratification.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Drogheda?

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
7 months ago
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Cromwell acted correctly within ‘The Rules of War’ and Aston & Co got what they so richly deserved.

That Wikibeast essay is rubbish,

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
7 months ago

Yes, whether or not he acted within “The Rules of War” is immaterial here, as is desert. Combatants and non-combatants were killed in ways that would impact modern sensibilities in ways similar to the GoPro footage discussed here.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Come off it, it was the mid 17th century or have you forgotten?

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
7 months ago

That’s my point. Groups of men slaughtering populations and raping and mutilating have been a constant factor throughout history. We are probably hard-wired for it. Attitudes and opinions are what have changed, not the behaviour.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

“Rome wasn’t built in a day”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

So true.

Jake Prior
Jake Prior
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Perhaps not, you can say they exploit it, but if the footage is real, as I’ve no doubt it is, is it not the reasonable job of the media to alert us to the reality of the situation?

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
7 months ago
Reply to  Jake Prior

Yes, of course it is. In the past, though, there were two differences. The first is that there was nobody recording the actual events, and the second is that electronic media allow us to see it without it being sanitised by editors. Male aggressors have always committed these types of atrocities: killing of prisoners, slaughter of civilians, rape, torture, and dismemberment.

Rob N
Rob N
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

And many women too. The terror of being handed over to the Afghan women if captured is why so many Victorian British soldiers shot themselves rather than be caught.

JP Martin
JP Martin
7 months ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

I won’t add to the downvotes, but you have really missed the point. Terrorism is always about propaganda and Palestinians have always been pioneers of this sort of terrorism. We weren’t the victims of this massacre, but we were among its targets. Terrorists go to these extremes to attract as much attention as possible. It brings publicity to their cause, attracts more violent recruits, inspires fear in their enemies, etc
Even when an attack fails to meet its own objectives (e.g. Munich), the terrorists may still regard it as a success when it attracts enough attention. The Palestinian cause is now back on the front pages and that alone will make Hamas happy.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
7 months ago
Reply to  JP Martin

And they can have fun while doing it!

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
7 months ago

So you watched it in the sense that a few hours ago, I watched Coronation Street. It is a particular sort of journalist that is invited to view matter that the common people may not. It is a particular sort of reader, viewer or listener that then takes their word for it.

Israel has squandered any sympathy that the original attack may have gained it, as those of us who had been reared on the memory of the Mandate knew that it would. Support for it turns out to have a popular following only in the United States, and even there the other side now also has one, which is far younger, far more active, and far better-educated. Such support is also a self-conscious mark of real or imagined elite status there and in a handful of other countries, including Britain. But in most of the world, it simply does not exist.

Do you ordinarily identify with Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer, with Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau, with Emmanuel Macron and Ursula von der Leyen? Well, there you are, then. Rather, the black and white keffiyeh was created by a British Lieutenant-General who was already a Companion of the Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, and who was subsequently also made a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath. He had commanded one of the last great victories of an Imperial client princely state’s British-led Army, namely the British-funded Arab Legion’s securing of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in 1948. That securing was recognised immediately by Britain, and for that matter by the United States. Think on.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
7 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

Off course most forget that Israel would NOT exist but for the genius of one Field Marshal Edmund Henry Hynman Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby, GCB, GCMG, GCVO, KStJ (23 April 1861 – 14 May 1936), late 6th (Inniskilling)Dragoons, and affectionately known as The Bull.

Allenby’s brilliant campaign*of 1917-18 drove the Ottoman Turk from the ‘Holy Land’ after centuries of occupation. He in fact succeeded where the Crusaders (1099-1303.) had ultimately failed.
The campaign cost approximately approximately 23,000 British
lives.

(* Aided and abetted to a minor degree by one T.E. Lawrence & Co.)

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
7 months ago

Most also forget that the establishment of a state for the Jews in Judea was also an ambition of Allenby’s ally King Faisal.

Andrew Vanbarner
Andrew Vanbarner
7 months ago

Allenby shone with talent in both military politics and in war.
But I don’t think Lawrence’s achievements should be discounted, either. His partisans wreaked utter havoc along Ottoman railways, providing a tremendous logistical advantage to British troops, and the popular support he won among the Arabs provided valuable if not decisive advantages to a war theater that was otherwise gorily stalled in place along the Dardanelles.
WWI was lost in the peace, at any rate, not in combat. A punitive treaty against Germany guaranteed it couldn’t last, while the victors divided up the former Ottoman provinces in a way that largely created today’s omnia bella, or at least led, ultimately, to the violent, pan-Arab socialist movements of the 1970s.
There was something resembling a glimmer of hope in the previous administration, which Hamas doubtless wanted to quash. No one will be able to sign any more peace accords for some time.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
7 months ago

The Beduin rose up against the Turks led by the Hashemites and took Damascus. Were there more Jews or Arabs fighting with Allenby? If the Arabs of Palestine had taken Jerusalem it would have strengthened their claim.
Jewish Legion – Wikipedia

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
7 months ago
Reply to  David Lindsay

“Terrorists take the two children — covered in their father’s blood — into a room. “Daddy’s dead,” one screams to his brother. “It’s not a prank. He’s really dead. I wish I was dead! I wish I was dead!” he screams”. You read that, and then write this. What sort of person are you?

Last edited 7 months ago by Stephen Walsh
Katja Sipple
Katja Sipple
7 months ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

“What sort of person are you?”
Good question! My response would be a morally reprehensible individual with ideological blinders who has fallen for the fallacious belief that the anti-Israel side is “far better-educated.” I had the misfortune of “debating” with some on the other side. Apart from the fact that their idea of debating is screaming slogans and throwing tantrums worthy of toddlers, the knowledge gaps present in these oh-so educated individuals are large enough to park several lorries.

Andrew Vanbarner
Andrew Vanbarner
7 months ago
Reply to  Katja Sipple

Absolutely. Their entirely false sense of moral superiority is as repellant as their neo-Marxist midwittery.
It isn’t that they don’t know very much.
It’s that what they believe they know is so glaringly wrong. And can only be the result of very thorough brainwashing.

John Williams
John Williams
7 months ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh