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Does Ukraine need to compromise? Kyiv's sovereignty has always been in American hands

A Ukrainian soldier in the Serebrianskyi forest near Kreminna. (Roman Chop/Global Images Ukraine via Getty Images)

A Ukrainian soldier in the Serebrianskyi forest near Kreminna. (Roman Chop/Global Images Ukraine via Getty Images)


August 22, 2023   8 mins

Over the past year and a half, calls for peace negotiations between Ukraine and Russia have been widely dismissed by the Ukrainian government and its more maximalist online supporters as either Putinist propaganda or defeatism. Yet the so-far lacklustre results of Ukraine’s long-awaited counteroffensive have rendered the entire debate moot: right now, there is no incentive whatsoever for Russia to enter into negotiations.

As Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov declared last week: “The prospects for negotiations between Russia and the West are non-existent at this stage.” Indeed, Lavrov applies precisely the same argument against peace talks that both Ukraine and its Western advocates made at an earlier stage in the war: that “we regard the Westerners’ hypocritical calls for talks as a tactical ploy to buy time once again, giving the exhausted Ukrainian troops a respite and the opportunity to regroup and to send in more weapons and ammunition”. It takes two sides to negotiate, and even if Washington compelled Kyiv to the table, Moscow will not currently accept concessions distinguishable from surrender, impossible for Ukraine to accept and damaging for America to oversee.

From Moscow’s perspective, the war is settling into a comfortable rhythm: the modern armour that Ukraine had demanded for so long, whose delivery elicited such angst and drama in Western capitals, is being expended against Russia’s defensive lines to little effect, at least so far. The spring’s flurry of gruesome drone videos showing Russian deaths up close has been inverted, with Russia’s supporters now exulting in the extinction of Ukraine’s increasingly precious reserves of manpower at the hands of cheap FPV drones. The Russian economy is faring better under Western sanctions than anyone expected, while European governments ride the discontent of their voters over rising living costs. On the diplomatic front, non-Western powers view the war in Ukraine with either unruffled equanimity or quiet satisfaction, happy to trade with Russia at discount prices and to assume a role in the multipolar order now demonstrably coming into being. Far from being isolated, Russia’s role in Africa is rapidly expanding as that of the West deteriorates. The greatest threat to Ukraine’s survival, the fickle will of America’s turbulent democratic system, is slowly proceeding in the direction Putin always hoped. The war may not be the stunning success Putin initially hoped for, but its recent trends seem broadly favourable for Moscow, and its disadvantages currently manageable. The necessity for Ukraine now is to once again overturn this calculus.

In these circumstances, there is something distasteful about the flurry of anonymous briefings with which the Biden administration is now distancing itself from Ukraine’s ill-starred counteroffensive. Its results have not, after all, come as a surprise to American planners: as the Discord intelligence leaks revealed, back in February, the Pentagon was already warning that the offensive was likely to fall “well short” of its stated goals: Russia’s sophisticated trench fortifications, coupled with Ukraine’s “force generation and sustainment shortfalls” and “enduring Ukrainian deficiencies in training and munitions supplies”, would “exacerbate casualties during the offensive”, while achieving only “modest territorial gains”. While there are serious dissenting opinions, which assert that the attrition of both Russia’s artillery and manpower under Ukrainian assault will eventually bear fruit, the results so far seem to bear out the accuracy of America’s initial assessment.

Given the vast disparity between Russia and Ukraine in size, population, wealth and industrial production, a strategy of attrition in which Ukraine bears the costs of assault appears a risky gamble. It was always improbable that Ukraine’s army could entirely reshape its military doctrine along Nato lines in a matter of months to defeat, without any of the air superiority integral to the American way of war, a dug-in enemy many times its size. It was Ukraine’s more excitable online supporters, and not the American defence establishment, which had made the grandest claims for the coming offensive, while talking down Russia’s military potential, and it would seem unfair for Kyiv to now pay the price of their reckless if well-meaning exuberance.

The Biden administration’s approach to the war has always been fundamentally sound: that Ukraine should be supported to negotiate, but only from a position of relative strength. Yet it is no good to belatedly observe, as US officials are now anonymously wont to do, that perhaps America’s top general Mark Milley was right in claiming that Ukraine’s greatest period of relative strength was last winter, following the unexpected success of the Kherson and Kharkiv offensives, when an overstretched Russia was on the ropes and seemingly willing to negotiate. True, back then, Ukraine’s star was ascendent and the planned offensive, then slated for the spring, seemed fraught with terrible potential for Russia’s leadership. Yet even then, Russia insisted on Kyiv recognising Moscow’s possession of the Ukrainian territories it had just abandoned, an impossible starting condition for talks.

Even the best chance of peace, the direct talks overseen by Turkey following Russia’s abandonment of its initial regime-change blitzkrieg, were stymied by the atrocities in Bucha and Irpin which Russia’s sudden withdrawal from northern Ukraine revealed. Seemingly a product of ill-discipline rather than top-down policy, the torture and murder of Ukrainian civilians which made negotiations impossible for Kyiv may eventually be recorded as some of the costliest individual crimes in Europe’s history: half a million casualties on both sides have followed, according to US officials. There have, therefore, been precisely two opportunities for meaningful negotiations in the war’s first year and a half, and both were made politically impossible by either Moscow’s unreasonable demands or by the actions of the troops under its command.

It had been hoped that the improved negotiating position necessary for meaningful talks would blossom from Ukraine’s counteroffensive, yet without dismissing the possibility of a sudden breakthrough, it would surely now be sensible to consider the alternatives. Writing for UnHerd, the eminent American strategist Edward Luttwak proposes Ukraine rolls the dice towards total mobilisation, conscripting a three-million-man army to fend off the Russian threat. This would be a bold, perhaps desperate gamble, which would either break the back of the Russian army or destroy Ukraine. The quality of Ukraine’s armed forces has seemingly deteriorated as the eager volunteers of the war’s early months have been replaced by often unwilling conscripts, and the newly raised and Western-trained brigades designed to spearhead the offensive have not performed as well as hoped. Further waves of Ukrainian mobilisation will surely be necessary, but it would be rash at this delicate stage to gamble the country’s survival on any imminent offensive feats from its new levies.

Perhaps a more cautious approach would be for Ukraine to dial down its immediate aims at this waning stage of the summer, hunker down for winter, marshall its resources and assess the possibilities opened up by spring. Instead of pursuing wasteful, symbolic actions such as the attempted reconquest of Bakhmut — a town, we were assured, which held no strategic value — or distracting sideshows like the attempted bridgehead across the Dnieper, if Kyiv does not feel confident in committing its full available might towards the southern offensive, it should disengage and prepare now for what is sure to be a difficult winter. If, as some analysts claim, Kyiv does not possess the command and control capability to undertake anything more than piecemeal company-sized attacks, then it should reassess its strategy, prioritising its actual military capacity over the perceived need to impress the outside world. A strategy of shoring up international support by promising an endless succession of improbable feats is no long-term strategy at all.

Russia’s relative success this summer was the product of its shortening and rationalisation of its lines last autumn, a then-humiliating strategy of the since-jailed General Surovikin which has now borne effective fruit. A Ukrainian disengagement from the current offensive would not necessarily mean ceding territory in the same way Russia did last year: the past two and a half painful months of Ukraine’s offensive have all taken place in the contested “grey zone” no-man’s-land in front of Russia’s first fixed line of defence, and there is nothing to prevent Ukraine using its remaining manpower, artillery and mobile armoured reserves in a similar way. Nor does it preclude striking targets of opportunity should the occasion arise, shorn of the unrealistic expectations and long-telegraphed objectives of the delayed counteroffensive.

Instead of expending political capital on procuring costly, high-tech weaponry such as the F-16 jets which will not be in meaningful service until the end of the decade, Kyiv may better choose to focus on low-cost, easily-produced weapons such as the suicide drones with which Russia is wreaking such havoc on Ukraine’s own forces. Pin-prick crossborder stunts like UAV attacks and short-lived incursions on Russian territory may play well on social media but unsettle Ukraine’s increasingly unreliable American sponsor, and are brushed aside as annoyances by Moscow. Instead, Kyiv should focus on shifting the human and materiel costs of the war back onto Russia, by forcing Putin to return to the offensive.

While the conditions which allowed Ukraine to undertake a daring and effective offensive last autumn no longer exist, Ukraine has already demonstrated its capacity for tenacious defence against overwhelming odds, and nothing has changed in this regard. Though Russia has succeeded in taking two cities, Mariupol and Bakhmut, against a determined Ukrainian defence, it did so both times at immense cost, and by effectively freezing offensive operations elsewhere in the country. Russia’s developing mini-offensive against Kupiansk will be a test of its current offensive capacity, and there is no reason to believe that Moscow will find the going any easier. On the contrary, Prigozhin’s impromptu coup adventure has made Wagner’s deployment a less glittering weapon in Putin’s armoury, and while recent mobilisation efforts may have shored up Russia’s defensive lines, it is doubtful Moscow can sustain major offensive action without further, politically costly waves of conscription. Meanwhile, just as it was last year, Kyiv is protected from invasion from the north by narrow forest roads and impassable marshes; even the sprawling second city of Kharkiv, right on Russia’s border, would be indigestible to the invader.

A temporary emphasis on defence between this autumn and next spring would, therefore, hold little serious threat for Ukraine, but would allow it to shore up its greatest strategic weakness: its place in the American political system. For the brutal truth is that Ukraine’s overriding strategic imperative is not to recapture the Crimea, or the dubiously loyal cities of the Donbas, but to preserve the quasi-alliance with America as long as necessary to ensure the medium-term survival of the Ukrainian state. Without America’s backing, all Europe’s support will fade away with varying degrees of regret and relief; even hawkish Poland’s massive programme of rearmament is not testimony to certainty in a Ukrainian victory.

The uncomfortable reality is that Ukraine’s sovereignty is severely circumscribed by the vagaries of America’s domestic politics. Whether or not Trump evades prison to return to power, and whether or not Biden’s entanglement in a Ukraine corruption scandal entirely unrelated to the war will become politically salient, America’s opposition party is increasingly sour on the Ukraine war, and America’s fickle voters increasingly unwilling to fund Ukraine’s defence further.

Yet instead of shoring up the alliance, the disappointing results of the counteroffensive up to now have exposed  rifts between the two countries, a luxury Kyiv cannot afford, far outweighing the importance of the shattered hamlets it has captured. The increasing blame game between anonymous Biden administration officials accusing Ukraine’s army of over-promising and under-delivering on strategy, and Ukrainian officials accusing the West of the same on arms shipments, will not work in Ukraine’s favour over time (indeed, Western diplomats would do well to beware the nascent stirrings of a post-war stab-in-the-back myth now).

Instead of public expressions of eternal support followed by private disavowals, Washington should not now promise Kyiv more than it can realistically expect to deliver, factoring in the possibility of a White House transition. Equally, Ukraine now needs to cut its ambitions to America’s cloth: it should abandon fantasies of carving a humbled Russia into ethnic republics, or bundling Putin into a dock in the Hague, and focus on what can be realistically be achieved over the course of the next year. Both America and Ukraine will need to compromise: Washington by delivering more aid over a longer timeframe than Biden is politically comfortable with, and Kyiv by lowering its goals to match its objective capabilities.

Whether or not a negotiated settlement is desirable, it is not at this time achievable: Ukraine has no choice but to continue fighting, and given its commitment so far, America is morally obliged to continue its support, in a war now unlikely to conclude until the end of next year at the very earliest. Citing the eventual withdrawal from Afghanistan, Lavrov remarked last week that “the United States does not have the best historical record when it comes to supporting its allies”. It would not well-serve Nato, or least of all Ukraine, for Washington to prove him right.


Aris Roussinos is an UnHerd columnist and a former war reporter.

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Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

America’s “fickle” voters, as you describe us, didn’t vote to be involved in this civil war; in fact, we weren’t asked our opinion at all. We were bombarded with a David vs Goliath propaganda campaign, and those susceptible to sentimental stories spoon fed them by the media lapped it up. Those who didn’t were/are derided as “Putin apologists”.

Billions of our tax dollars and our own defense matĂ©riels have been sent to (ostensibly) aid Ukraine, whilst our own cities burn and are invaded by foreigners from all over the world. Our leadership, if one can call it that without laughing, is thoroughly corrupt, and doesn’t care that we know it. The Biden’s are confident that, although their Ukraine bribe scandal is out in the open, nothing will be done about it – all whilst the former president is being persecuted and prosecuted for “crimes” like expressing opinions and sending emails.

Ukraine is Ukraine’s problem, and its venal little Vogue cover model can get f*cked.

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago

Allison, you are absolutely spot on in your comment.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

More like spot off!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

More like spot off!

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

It’s unreal, isn’t it? America rots and burns–our beautiful cities are ringed with homeless encampments, many of them veterans from our other adventures in Empire. I can’t afford anything anymore, my middle class family is struggling, partially because of this madness and for the Biden Crime Family Syndicate’s money laundering operation in Ukraine.
If the little Vogue cover model’s speech to joint session of Congress–the political elites don’t give a f**k about regular Americans. They only care about the globalist agenda, and their stock profiles with Raytheon.
We need a revolution, but it’s not happening within either political party.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

In 1942 , The USA became the leader of the free world, Britain was bankrupt. Britain and her Empire accepted the responsibility of opposing Napoleon, ending slavery, fighting Germany in WW1 when not threatened and fighting the Nazis on our own. The Tizard Mission provided the USA with the greatest technological gifts of all time.
President J Kennedy understood that the USA had responsibility as the leader of the Free World, hence his speeches.
“The New Frontier of which I speak is not a set of promises– it is a set of challenges. It sums up not what I intend to offer the American people, but what I intend to ask of them.
  Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
     This much we pledge–and more.
The last president to understand the USA’s responsibilities was R Reagan.
If the USA lays down the burden of being the leader of the Free World; China supported by Russia and Iran will become leader of the World and it will not be free.

Jim Bocho
Jim Bocho
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

In 1942 the ‘free world’ had enslaved most of the rest of the world. The ‘free world’ didn’t like the idea of the Germans giving it a taste of its own medicine, however.

Jim Bocho
Jim Bocho
1 year ago
Reply to  Charles Hedges

In 1942 the ‘free world’ had enslaved most of the rest of the world. The ‘free world’ didn’t like the idea of the Germans giving it a taste of its own medicine, however.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

OMG! Where do you get your information? Wait, don’t tell me………..

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

Might want to look up the definition of civil war there my friend, as one country invading another isn’t a civil war

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Or perhaps you should look up the definition of civil war. Was the “US Civil War” a civil war or a case of the north invading the south? After all the south had seceded and therefore, for all intent and purposes, was a separate country, was it not? Now, sure the north and Lincoln didn’t regard the confederacy as a separate country, but the confederacy sure did, and the confederacy was fighting to save their way of life (irrespective of what one might think about the tragedy and horrors of slavery in the 19th century) and their homes. The situation vis a vis Ukraine and Russia is not dissimilar to the situation that pertained with the US civil war. And the aggressor in the case of the US civil war, Abraham Lincoln, is regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest and wisest, of all US presidents.
The bottom line is that everything depends upon one’s perspective. In the case of Ukraine, the country can basically be divided into east and west, and the east is most definitely Russian in affinity, language and culture. Western Ukraine is a mishmash and was at one time part of Poland. Further Kiev is the birthplace of Russian civilization, albeit in the middle ages.
Given that situation, would it not be better to broker a peace deal that involved partitioning of the country. After all, at the moment, the casualties on the Ukrainian side are piling up at an extraordinary rate and the so-called counteroffensive has been a complete failure.
As for the origins of the current war, the US and NATO have only themselves to blame. After the unification of Germany, the secretary of state James Baker promised Gorbachev that NATO would not advance one inch further east. Well what happened? NATO continued to advance eastward, and the US continued to interfere in countries, such as Ukraine, it had no business interfering in. They engineered the 2014 Maidan coup in Ukraine and tried to instigate a similar coup in Belarus in 2020. Under those circumstances the Russian reaction is no different from night following day. It was inevitable. And exactly the same situation would have pertained with regard to the US if the equivalent happened close to the borders of the US (e.g. the Cuban missile crisis of 1962).

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

People upvoted this nonsense?

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago
Reply to  Johann Strauss

People upvoted this nonsense?

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Or perhaps you should look up the definition of civil war. Was the “US Civil War” a civil war or a case of the north invading the south? After all the south had seceded and therefore, for all intent and purposes, was a separate country, was it not? Now, sure the north and Lincoln didn’t regard the confederacy as a separate country, but the confederacy sure did, and the confederacy was fighting to save their way of life (irrespective of what one might think about the tragedy and horrors of slavery in the 19th century) and their homes. The situation vis a vis Ukraine and Russia is not dissimilar to the situation that pertained with the US civil war. And the aggressor in the case of the US civil war, Abraham Lincoln, is regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest and wisest, of all US presidents.
The bottom line is that everything depends upon one’s perspective. In the case of Ukraine, the country can basically be divided into east and west, and the east is most definitely Russian in affinity, language and culture. Western Ukraine is a mishmash and was at one time part of Poland. Further Kiev is the birthplace of Russian civilization, albeit in the middle ages.
Given that situation, would it not be better to broker a peace deal that involved partitioning of the country. After all, at the moment, the casualties on the Ukrainian side are piling up at an extraordinary rate and the so-called counteroffensive has been a complete failure.
As for the origins of the current war, the US and NATO have only themselves to blame. After the unification of Germany, the secretary of state James Baker promised Gorbachev that NATO would not advance one inch further east. Well what happened? NATO continued to advance eastward, and the US continued to interfere in countries, such as Ukraine, it had no business interfering in. They engineered the 2014 Maidan coup in Ukraine and tried to instigate a similar coup in Belarus in 2020. Under those circumstances the Russian reaction is no different from night following day. It was inevitable. And exactly the same situation would have pertained with regard to the US if the equivalent happened close to the borders of the US (e.g. the Cuban missile crisis of 1962).

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Oh, I thought he looked great in that F-16.
Just a matter of taste, I guess.
Thankfully, none of us will be in Russian lines when they start operating.
You should be happy about that.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

No need to be so coy – your former pres, the fat, orange draft-dodging one who sleeps in a separate room to his hooker wife, is under investigation for trying to stay in power despite having lost an election. Read the indictment: https://ayenaw.com/2023/08/02/the-big-one/ 
And why, in a representative democracy, do you think you had a right to be consulted? You’re not the government. Try to acquaint yourself with the basics of how a representative democracy actually works before making a fool of yourself in public. Failing that, move to Switzerland where the model of governance may be more to your “hoi polloi rules” tastes.  

Johann Strauss
Johann Strauss
1 year ago

Allison, you are absolutely spot on in your comment.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

It’s unreal, isn’t it? America rots and burns–our beautiful cities are ringed with homeless encampments, many of them veterans from our other adventures in Empire. I can’t afford anything anymore, my middle class family is struggling, partially because of this madness and for the Biden Crime Family Syndicate’s money laundering operation in Ukraine.
If the little Vogue cover model’s speech to joint session of Congress–the political elites don’t give a f**k about regular Americans. They only care about the globalist agenda, and their stock profiles with Raytheon.
We need a revolution, but it’s not happening within either political party.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago

In 1942 , The USA became the leader of the free world, Britain was bankrupt. Britain and her Empire accepted the responsibility of opposing Napoleon, ending slavery, fighting Germany in WW1 when not threatened and fighting the Nazis on our own. The Tizard Mission provided the USA with the greatest technological gifts of all time.
President J Kennedy understood that the USA had responsibility as the leader of the Free World, hence his speeches.
“The New Frontier of which I speak is not a set of promises– it is a set of challenges. It sums up not what I intend to offer the American people, but what I intend to ask of them.
  Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
     This much we pledge–and more.
The last president to understand the USA’s responsibilities was R Reagan.
If the USA lays down the burden of being the leader of the Free World; China supported by Russia and Iran will become leader of the World and it will not be free.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

OMG! Where do you get your information? Wait, don’t tell me………..

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
1 year ago

Might want to look up the definition of civil war there my friend, as one country invading another isn’t a civil war

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Oh, I thought he looked great in that F-16.
Just a matter of taste, I guess.
Thankfully, none of us will be in Russian lines when they start operating.
You should be happy about that.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

No need to be so coy – your former pres, the fat, orange draft-dodging one who sleeps in a separate room to his hooker wife, is under investigation for trying to stay in power despite having lost an election. Read the indictment: https://ayenaw.com/2023/08/02/the-big-one/ 
And why, in a representative democracy, do you think you had a right to be consulted? You’re not the government. Try to acquaint yourself with the basics of how a representative democracy actually works before making a fool of yourself in public. Failing that, move to Switzerland where the model of governance may be more to your “hoi polloi rules” tastes.  

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

America’s “fickle” voters, as you describe us, didn’t vote to be involved in this civil war; in fact, we weren’t asked our opinion at all. We were bombarded with a David vs Goliath propaganda campaign, and those susceptible to sentimental stories spoon fed them by the media lapped it up. Those who didn’t were/are derided as “Putin apologists”.

Billions of our tax dollars and our own defense matĂ©riels have been sent to (ostensibly) aid Ukraine, whilst our own cities burn and are invaded by foreigners from all over the world. Our leadership, if one can call it that without laughing, is thoroughly corrupt, and doesn’t care that we know it. The Biden’s are confident that, although their Ukraine bribe scandal is out in the open, nothing will be done about it – all whilst the former president is being persecuted and prosecuted for “crimes” like expressing opinions and sending emails.

Ukraine is Ukraine’s problem, and its venal little Vogue cover model can get f*cked.

Jonathan N
Jonathan N
1 year ago

Right now we appear to be heading towards a Korean peninsular situation, with the difference that Russia will not become a hermit kingdom. It has too many allies outside Europe and the US for that.

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan N

It won’t be a stalemate as Ukraine has just smashed its army on the prepared Russian defensive lines without breaking through a single one. There are three. The Russian army is barely touched and vastly larger than what they started with. In addition they are manufacturing artillery shells at three times the rate prior to the start of the SMO whereas Ukraine is begging for ordinance that does not exist.
The losses taken by Ukraine are estimated to be somewhere between 100,000 and 400,000 KIA. No western government or agency will announce this tragedy.
Putin was attempting to negotiate with the US as late as Dec 2021 but was laughed at by Blinken, but the chickens are coming home to roost. Any talk of a frozen conflict is just wishful thinking trying to cover for a western disaster of catastrophic proportions.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Keating
Charlie Dibsdale
Charlie Dibsdale
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

I am not sure Ukraine has yet “smashed its army”. It seems to have retained a significant strategic reserve that could be deadly in a war of manoeuvre. The Russian defences are formidable but the Ukrainians are systematically crumbling them. The Ukrainians seem to have the initiative. How many casualties they have suffered and whether there is the stomach to continue this war, is not known but I sense the willingness to give up part of their homeland is not there. What has not been said is what the Ukrainians themselves want.
If The US changes its regime, and/or forces the Ukrainians into a negotiated ceasefire (I cannot see this resolving the long-term situation), we will be effectively rewarding Putin’s Russia for aggression against nation-states. This is appeasement by any other name and this does not work. This prospect is sickening and I believe would be a strategic mistake of gigantic proportions.

Fred Oldfield
Fred Oldfield
1 year ago

Watch Colonel Douglas MacGregor on the conflict (YouTube). He is by far the most reliable commentator (though not the only one).
Ukraine has been used by the neocons in Washington and its NATO allies to try to weaken Russia. In essence, they provoked this conflict by the stance they have taken on Ukraine becoming a member of NATO, which has long been a red line for the Russians. The treatment of ethnic Russians in the eastern part of Ukraine has also been a factor.
Unfortunately they entirely miscalculated Russia’s military strength and resolve. Russia has no interest in governing Ukraine. They will retain the territory they have now annexed, along with Crimea. Ukraine has already lost, is running out of men and weapons. Further attacks – to the last man – will wipe out their military altogether and leave the country a wasteland.
Make peace, you fools….

Last edited 1 year ago by Fred Oldfield
Fred Oldfield
Fred Oldfield
1 year ago

Watch Colonel Douglas MacGregor on the conflict (YouTube). He is by far the most reliable commentator (though not the only one).
Ukraine has been used by the neocons in Washington and its NATO allies to try to weaken Russia. In essence, they provoked this conflict by the stance they have taken on Ukraine becoming a member of NATO, which has long been a red line for the Russians. The treatment of ethnic Russians in the eastern part of Ukraine has also been a factor.
Unfortunately they entirely miscalculated Russia’s military strength and resolve. Russia has no interest in governing Ukraine. They will retain the territory they have now annexed, along with Crimea. Ukraine has already lost, is running out of men and weapons. Further attacks – to the last man – will wipe out their military altogether and leave the country a wasteland.
Make peace, you fools….

Last edited 1 year ago by Fred Oldfield
Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Possibly but I suspect it is too early to dismiss the idea of a stalemate as “just wishful thinking”. Surely one of the main military lessons of the last two years has been that the pendulum has swung back to favouring the defensive (as during WW1) rather than the offensive (as in WW2)? That cuts both ways.

Last edited 1 year ago by Alex Carnegie
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Asinine nonsense.
Telling NATO to butt out of Eastern Europe (which is exactly what Putin demanded) is hardly “negotiating” is it ?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

“Russian army is barely touched” loool thats why they’re doing rounds of mobilization (even though publicly putin stated many times that no mobilized soldiers and only contractors will be on the front line) and using a “PMC” to hire cons straight out of jail ? For a supposedly 2nd best army in the world that doesn’t look like “barely touched”

Charlie Dibsdale
Charlie Dibsdale
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

I am not sure Ukraine has yet “smashed its army”. It seems to have retained a significant strategic reserve that could be deadly in a war of manoeuvre. The Russian defences are formidable but the Ukrainians are systematically crumbling them. The Ukrainians seem to have the initiative. How many casualties they have suffered and whether there is the stomach to continue this war, is not known but I sense the willingness to give up part of their homeland is not there. What has not been said is what the Ukrainians themselves want.
If The US changes its regime, and/or forces the Ukrainians into a negotiated ceasefire (I cannot see this resolving the long-term situation), we will be effectively rewarding Putin’s Russia for aggression against nation-states. This is appeasement by any other name and this does not work. This prospect is sickening and I believe would be a strategic mistake of gigantic proportions.

Alex Carnegie
Alex Carnegie
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Possibly but I suspect it is too early to dismiss the idea of a stalemate as “just wishful thinking”. Surely one of the main military lessons of the last two years has been that the pendulum has swung back to favouring the defensive (as during WW1) rather than the offensive (as in WW2)? That cuts both ways.

Last edited 1 year ago by Alex Carnegie
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Asinine nonsense.
Telling NATO to butt out of Eastern Europe (which is exactly what Putin demanded) is hardly “negotiating” is it ?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

“Russian army is barely touched” loool thats why they’re doing rounds of mobilization (even though publicly putin stated many times that no mobilized soldiers and only contractors will be on the front line) and using a “PMC” to hire cons straight out of jail ? For a supposedly 2nd best army in the world that doesn’t look like “barely touched”

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan N

May turn out that way.
But it was two years of stalemate before the ceasefire.
Looks like war til 2025–unless Russia’s economy collapses

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan N

Unbelievable.
We are now mired in a stalemate with the Russian Bear on the Eastern European Killing Fields that have almost zero to do with the interests of regular Americans–the long-game only presents more suffering for the Ukrainians, more death and dismemberment, more disenfranchisement for regular Americans as the middle and working class dies because of rampant inflation, terrible housing costs, and horrific gas prices partially caused by this ill advised war-mongering.
At the same time, the progressive left in America has acquiesced to the war-mongers and the Biden family crime syndicate’s money laundering operation in Ukraine. This whole thing doesn’t serve America, it serves a TINY SLIVER of elites in America.
Ann Coulter, whom I despise, has become the face of anti-interventionism in America? We are politically dysfunctional and feudal society, currently run by the woke-militaristic elites. What a sham.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

“stalemate” “russian bear” “killing fields” “more suffering for the Ukrainians” “disenfranchisement for regular Americans” “ll advised war-mongering” “the war-mongers and the Biden family” “money laundering operation in Ukraine” “elites in America”
Way to go comrade, you got almost all the propaganda buzzwords ! Here is your 30 rubles !

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Testosteroni
S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

Okey dokey, whatever you say man. I bet you don’t even live in America. Tell me how all this is going in 5 years.
You are a very stupid person.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

>You are a very stupid person.
I’m not the one regurgitating russian propaganda

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

To attack a commenter personally makes you look bad and invalidates your opinions. If you want to debate authentically it’s preferable to say you think the comments are stupid not the person.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Just reflects a lack of self control.
Don’t turn yourself into a Russian!
That’s why they’re losing.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

If he’s Russian, he may have been drunk

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Just reflects a lack of self control.
Don’t turn yourself into a Russian!
That’s why they’re losing.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

If he’s Russian, he may have been drunk

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

>You are a very stupid person.
I’m not the one regurgitating russian propaganda

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

To attack a commenter personally makes you look bad and invalidates your opinions. If you want to debate authentically it’s preferable to say you think the comments are stupid not the person.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

He’s just a loyal citizen of the Memeverse.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

Okey dokey, whatever you say man. I bet you don’t even live in America. Tell me how all this is going in 5 years.
You are a very stupid person.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

He’s just a loyal citizen of the Memeverse.

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Hey “S Smith”, are you chaps still based at 55 Savushkina Street, St. Petersburg or has your employer moved to bigger premises to accommodate all the new hires?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Wonder if they ever got the toilet fixed.
Say…maybe that’s why they invaded?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Wonder if they ever got the toilet fixed.
Say…maybe that’s why they invaded?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

“stalemate” “russian bear” “killing fields” “more suffering for the Ukrainians” “disenfranchisement for regular Americans” “ll advised war-mongering” “the war-mongers and the Biden family” “money laundering operation in Ukraine” “elites in America”
Way to go comrade, you got almost all the propaganda buzzwords ! Here is your 30 rubles !

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Testosteroni
Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Hey “S Smith”, are you chaps still based at 55 Savushkina Street, St. Petersburg or has your employer moved to bigger premises to accommodate all the new hires?

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan N

It won’t be a stalemate as Ukraine has just smashed its army on the prepared Russian defensive lines without breaking through a single one. There are three. The Russian army is barely touched and vastly larger than what they started with. In addition they are manufacturing artillery shells at three times the rate prior to the start of the SMO whereas Ukraine is begging for ordinance that does not exist.
The losses taken by Ukraine are estimated to be somewhere between 100,000 and 400,000 KIA. No western government or agency will announce this tragedy.
Putin was attempting to negotiate with the US as late as Dec 2021 but was laughed at by Blinken, but the chickens are coming home to roost. Any talk of a frozen conflict is just wishful thinking trying to cover for a western disaster of catastrophic proportions.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Keating
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan N

May turn out that way.
But it was two years of stalemate before the ceasefire.
Looks like war til 2025–unless Russia’s economy collapses

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan N

Unbelievable.
We are now mired in a stalemate with the Russian Bear on the Eastern European Killing Fields that have almost zero to do with the interests of regular Americans–the long-game only presents more suffering for the Ukrainians, more death and dismemberment, more disenfranchisement for regular Americans as the middle and working class dies because of rampant inflation, terrible housing costs, and horrific gas prices partially caused by this ill advised war-mongering.
At the same time, the progressive left in America has acquiesced to the war-mongers and the Biden family crime syndicate’s money laundering operation in Ukraine. This whole thing doesn’t serve America, it serves a TINY SLIVER of elites in America.
Ann Coulter, whom I despise, has become the face of anti-interventionism in America? We are politically dysfunctional and feudal society, currently run by the woke-militaristic elites. What a sham.

Jonathan N
Jonathan N
1 year ago

Right now we appear to be heading towards a Korean peninsular situation, with the difference that Russia will not become a hermit kingdom. It has too many allies outside Europe and the US for that.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago

I legitimately feel bad for Ukraine, and I even feel a bit bad for the Russian people (Putin definitely not included), because Ukrainians and Russians died in a war that America won. The war has greatly served American interests and basically nobody else. In one fell swoop, America expanded NATO, inspired other NATO members to spend money on their own defense, and broke European, dependence on Russian energy, and gave the Chinese a warning regarding attempting something similar in Taiwan. all for the small price of some weapons systems that we needed to combat test anyway. That’s all over though, and the war will increasingly be viewed simply as an expense as time passes. Putin will eventually offer the status quo plus a guarantee of Ukraine being excluded from NATO, and America will nudge them to accept because continuing the war indefinitely in an unbreakable stalemate serves no compelling American interest. It’s an ugly and unfair solution for an ugly and unfair world.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Jolly
Chris Maille
Chris Maille
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

What about feeling bad for Europeans ?
We are plagued by delusional left wing ideologues, completely unable to factor in the consequences of the war in Ukraine when calculating the costs of their great transition. Energy prices soar and that means significant and durable losses in wealth and productivity.
The US part in this war is seen as a hostile act by an increasing number of Europeans and it is very likely, that the loss of geopolitical legitimacy of the USA will be long lasting. I fail to see how severly damaging the united states’ reputation in Europe is ‘greatly serving american interests’.
I also don’t share the author’s view that the Biden clan’s involvement in Ukrainian corruption is ‘completely unrelated’ to the war. I believe there is a huge incentive to ‘protect’ very interesting information in Ukraine, that would not only damage the Bidens, but the entire globalist agenda.
Which in turn is a fundamentally good thing.

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

Except for the plague of “delusional left wing ideologues” which as a left wing person myself cannot see in your current idiotic leadership, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
Biden is up to his armpits in Ukraine corruption and it can be argued that prolonging the catastrophe is all about hiding his involvement.
It is all going pear shaped and I would be surprised if Zelensky will survive the next 12 months. He has too much dirt on the Western leadership so he will be silenced so it doesn’t get out.
I also think that it is agood thing that the globalist agenda is derailed as there is precious little in it for the ordinary citizen. Currently western politics is all about terrifying the voter, not persuading them with the promise of a better life.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

I told a friend just yesterday that I think Zelenskyy has assassination in his near future.

Last edited 1 year ago by Allison Barrows
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

He’s quite a small target!

Mind you so was the late King Hussein of Jordan who is reputed to survived at least 20 assassination attempts.

However the late Charles de Gaulle offered a much better chance of success but still survived!

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Let us hope not.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Bizarre and delusional. Like 80% of the comments on here.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Probably because they’re associated with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Exactly. Sad isn’t it. Where are the voices of reason?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Probably because they’re associated with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

Exactly. Sad isn’t it. Where are the voices of reason?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Is that something you would like to see ? Wouldn’t you think that Putin’s assassination odds are much higher ?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

But because you think it doesn’t make it so.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Speak on, oracle – is this something you: (i) would like to see; (ii) would not like to see; or (iii) have no opinions about?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

He’s quite a small target!

Mind you so was the late King Hussein of Jordan who is reputed to survived at least 20 assassination attempts.

However the late Charles de Gaulle offered a much better chance of success but still survived!

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Let us hope not.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Bizarre and delusional. Like 80% of the comments on here.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Is that something you would like to see ? Wouldn’t you think that Putin’s assassination odds are much higher ?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

But because you think it doesn’t make it so.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Speak on, oracle – is this something you: (i) would like to see; (ii) would not like to see; or (iii) have no opinions about?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

And you know all this how?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

I told a friend just yesterday that I think Zelenskyy has assassination in his near future.

Last edited 1 year ago by Allison Barrows
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

And you know all this how?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

Er, weren’t people saying that 60 years ago? Funny how events in 1991 sort of disproved that.
Maybe this time it’s different. But even after far worse outcomes than this, Washington never has lost “geopolitical legitimacy.”
The US is still simply too big and wealthy–while both Russia and Chian are too dysfunctional–to change that in your lifetime.

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You raise a question I can’t answer: The US has pursued, for the last 75 years or so, a foreign policy that has brought it shameful defeat after shameful defeat. When, for heaven sakes when, will the light go off?

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

America’s rich have rarely, if ever, been defeated.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

‘We’ gave them ‘a damned good thrashing’ in 1812-1814, of which I shall say more on Thursday.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

And King Billy won in 1690. All’s well then

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

And King Billy won in 1690. All’s well then

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

‘We’ gave them ‘a damned good thrashing’ in 1812-1814, of which I shall say more on Thursday.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

It’s not policy, it’s political incompetence. America is an Empire of Influence and has no idea how to run a real flesh and blood post war administration. It learned too late in Afghanistan that only dealing with those who claim to be ‘Capitalists’ means you have appointed local drugs lords, con men and the mafia etc to run the country. Sarah Chayes wrote a very pertinent article about this titled “Afghanistan’s Corruption Was Made in America”. It’s worth a read.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Er, Al Qaida defeated the US? ISIS defeated the US?
Those were our enemies.
You do see, at least, why you are just lazily repeating memes made up by someone else?

Iris C
Iris C
1 year ago

America has tried to impose its liberal democracy on all the countries it has invaded since the end of WW2 without being fully aware of their complex historical, cultural and differing Islamic belief structure. It is that which has led to “defeat after shameful defeat.”

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Haven’t seen any terrorist attacks in the US or Europe lately.
That’s really why the war was fought.

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Failure, even abject failure, to achieve all stated objectives (of a military action) hardly constitutes “shameful defeat”. For “shameful defeat” see Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, 1945, for starters!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Haven’t seen any terrorist attacks in the US or Europe lately.
That’s really why the war was fought.

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Iris C

Failure, even abject failure, to achieve all stated objectives (of a military action) hardly constitutes “shameful defeat”. For “shameful defeat” see Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, 1945, for starters!

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

America’s rich have rarely, if ever, been defeated.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

It’s not policy, it’s political incompetence. America is an Empire of Influence and has no idea how to run a real flesh and blood post war administration. It learned too late in Afghanistan that only dealing with those who claim to be ‘Capitalists’ means you have appointed local drugs lords, con men and the mafia etc to run the country. Sarah Chayes wrote a very pertinent article about this titled “Afghanistan’s Corruption Was Made in America”. It’s worth a read.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Er, Al Qaida defeated the US? ISIS defeated the US?
Those were our enemies.
You do see, at least, why you are just lazily repeating memes made up by someone else?

Iris C
Iris C
1 year ago

America has tried to impose its liberal democracy on all the countries it has invaded since the end of WW2 without being fully aware of their complex historical, cultural and differing Islamic belief structure. It is that which has led to “defeat after shameful defeat.”

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

You raise a question I can’t answer: The US has pursued, for the last 75 years or so, a foreign policy that has brought it shameful defeat after shameful defeat. When, for heaven sakes when, will the light go off?

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

I hate to say “I told you so” again to all the insane left-woke-warmongerers here in the states (I am still “left” but am so ashamed of it now that I don’t call myself that anymore, and call myself an RFK Jr. populist)—this was how this war was going to end and it was all a money laundering operation for the Biden Crime Family Syndicate. The “I told you so” also went for the horrific corruption of the Covid response and Biden’s insane utilization of incompetents like Fauci and Walensky as front-people. At the same time, we have Trump, whom I also despise and desperately do not want to be president again. It’s a terrible situation in the U.S. right now, and many of us have eschewed both major parties and all allegiance to any political realm and want change from this horror.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

I don’t agree with all you say but I second your feelings about the dire need for change in both parties in the US. It’s the same old thing with old white guys as leaders. There’s a desperate need for some people with vision who aren’t self-serving. But good luck with that!!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

I don’t agree with all you say but I second your feelings about the dire need for change in both parties in the US. It’s the same old thing with old white guys as leaders. There’s a desperate need for some people with vision who aren’t self-serving. But good luck with that!!

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

I don’t feel nearly so bad for Europeans because much of the damage is self-inflicted. Nobody forced Germany to close their nuclear plants and instead become dependent on Putin for gas. Nobody forced European governments to basically abandon all defense spending at the end of the Cold War and become wholly dependent on the US. America didn’t force Europeans to embrace the fantasy of NetZero. Also, are you aware most Americans don’t trust or like our politicians, bureaucrats, or corporate leaders? Our leadership, from corporate board rooms to the white house, is less popular in America than in Europe. Do they do anything about it? No, they just keep pursuing their own interests and ignore public opinion as much as possible except during election years. Why should they treat you folks any different eh?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

“plagued” – note biblical language.
“significant and durable losses in wealth and productivity …” – note wild and uncorroborated hyperbole.
Had it been left to accountants like you, Britain would have rolled over in WW2. All that blood, sweat and tears just to wade in on the side of Johnny foreigner?
Your WW2 doppelganger would have been out on the streets, ledger book in one hand, white flag in the other. 

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

Except for the plague of “delusional left wing ideologues” which as a left wing person myself cannot see in your current idiotic leadership, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
Biden is up to his armpits in Ukraine corruption and it can be argued that prolonging the catastrophe is all about hiding his involvement.
It is all going pear shaped and I would be surprised if Zelensky will survive the next 12 months. He has too much dirt on the Western leadership so he will be silenced so it doesn’t get out.
I also think that it is agood thing that the globalist agenda is derailed as there is precious little in it for the ordinary citizen. Currently western politics is all about terrifying the voter, not persuading them with the promise of a better life.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

Er, weren’t people saying that 60 years ago? Funny how events in 1991 sort of disproved that.
Maybe this time it’s different. But even after far worse outcomes than this, Washington never has lost “geopolitical legitimacy.”
The US is still simply too big and wealthy–while both Russia and Chian are too dysfunctional–to change that in your lifetime.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

I hate to say “I told you so” again to all the insane left-woke-warmongerers here in the states (I am still “left” but am so ashamed of it now that I don’t call myself that anymore, and call myself an RFK Jr. populist)—this was how this war was going to end and it was all a money laundering operation for the Biden Crime Family Syndicate. The “I told you so” also went for the horrific corruption of the Covid response and Biden’s insane utilization of incompetents like Fauci and Walensky as front-people. At the same time, we have Trump, whom I also despise and desperately do not want to be president again. It’s a terrible situation in the U.S. right now, and many of us have eschewed both major parties and all allegiance to any political realm and want change from this horror.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

I don’t feel nearly so bad for Europeans because much of the damage is self-inflicted. Nobody forced Germany to close their nuclear plants and instead become dependent on Putin for gas. Nobody forced European governments to basically abandon all defense spending at the end of the Cold War and become wholly dependent on the US. America didn’t force Europeans to embrace the fantasy of NetZero. Also, are you aware most Americans don’t trust or like our politicians, bureaucrats, or corporate leaders? Our leadership, from corporate board rooms to the white house, is less popular in America than in Europe. Do they do anything about it? No, they just keep pursuing their own interests and ignore public opinion as much as possible except during election years. Why should they treat you folks any different eh?

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

“plagued” – note biblical language.
“significant and durable losses in wealth and productivity …” – note wild and uncorroborated hyperbole.
Had it been left to accountants like you, Britain would have rolled over in WW2. All that blood, sweat and tears just to wade in on the side of Johnny foreigner?
Your WW2 doppelganger would have been out on the streets, ledger book in one hand, white flag in the other. 

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

That’s not very accurate. NATO operates by consensus and is NOT American led however much NATO enemies and American MAGA supporters might say that it is. The fact that those enemies of peace, the governments of Russia and China, use American hubris to label the US as an aggressor really is not helped by Americans themselves posturing as the ‘Boss’ of 30 vassal states who do their bidding ! The benefits you mention are true for all peace loving Western friendly nations but rather than being the result of brilliant American long term planning, it’s the result of Putin’s misjudgement. All NATO and its allies had to do was watch Putin make Hitler type errors and think quickly how to exploit them. IMO the Russian Federation needed a reset and when Putin has gone, it can have one and become a prosperous and free society.

Last edited 1 year ago by UnHerd Reader
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Putin won’t offer a status quo that won’t be a defeat for Ukrainians and he’s not in the position to anyways. Russian army isn’t doing so great and they’re losing ground

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Don’t confuse them with facts–on the ground or elsewhere.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

What facts on the ground are you referring to ?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

What facts on the ground are you referring to ?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Don’t confuse them with facts–on the ground or elsewhere.

Walter Schimeck
Walter Schimeck
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

The one american interest that the stalemate does serve is that it will eventually reduce Europe to a de-industrialized poor-house. The U.S. has proven yet again that it is willing to sacrifice its European allies to achieve its own geopolitical aims. It was the same mentality at work during the tactical nuclear missile standoff of the 1980s: escalate tensions to the boiling point and if the worst-case scenario should come to pass, retreat behind your 2000 mile-wide moat and wait for the conflagration to subside.

Chris Maille
Chris Maille
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

What about feeling bad for Europeans ?
We are plagued by delusional left wing ideologues, completely unable to factor in the consequences of the war in Ukraine when calculating the costs of their great transition. Energy prices soar and that means significant and durable losses in wealth and productivity.
The US part in this war is seen as a hostile act by an increasing number of Europeans and it is very likely, that the loss of geopolitical legitimacy of the USA will be long lasting. I fail to see how severly damaging the united states’ reputation in Europe is ‘greatly serving american interests’.
I also don’t share the author’s view that the Biden clan’s involvement in Ukrainian corruption is ‘completely unrelated’ to the war. I believe there is a huge incentive to ‘protect’ very interesting information in Ukraine, that would not only damage the Bidens, but the entire globalist agenda.
Which in turn is a fundamentally good thing.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

That’s not very accurate. NATO operates by consensus and is NOT American led however much NATO enemies and American MAGA supporters might say that it is. The fact that those enemies of peace, the governments of Russia and China, use American hubris to label the US as an aggressor really is not helped by Americans themselves posturing as the ‘Boss’ of 30 vassal states who do their bidding ! The benefits you mention are true for all peace loving Western friendly nations but rather than being the result of brilliant American long term planning, it’s the result of Putin’s misjudgement. All NATO and its allies had to do was watch Putin make Hitler type errors and think quickly how to exploit them. IMO the Russian Federation needed a reset and when Putin has gone, it can have one and become a prosperous and free society.

Last edited 1 year ago by UnHerd Reader
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Putin won’t offer a status quo that won’t be a defeat for Ukrainians and he’s not in the position to anyways. Russian army isn’t doing so great and they’re losing ground

Walter Schimeck
Walter Schimeck
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

The one american interest that the stalemate does serve is that it will eventually reduce Europe to a de-industrialized poor-house. The U.S. has proven yet again that it is willing to sacrifice its European allies to achieve its own geopolitical aims. It was the same mentality at work during the tactical nuclear missile standoff of the 1980s: escalate tensions to the boiling point and if the worst-case scenario should come to pass, retreat behind your 2000 mile-wide moat and wait for the conflagration to subside.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago

I legitimately feel bad for Ukraine, and I even feel a bit bad for the Russian people (Putin definitely not included), because Ukrainians and Russians died in a war that America won. The war has greatly served American interests and basically nobody else. In one fell swoop, America expanded NATO, inspired other NATO members to spend money on their own defense, and broke European, dependence on Russian energy, and gave the Chinese a warning regarding attempting something similar in Taiwan. all for the small price of some weapons systems that we needed to combat test anyway. That’s all over though, and the war will increasingly be viewed simply as an expense as time passes. Putin will eventually offer the status quo plus a guarantee of Ukraine being excluded from NATO, and America will nudge them to accept because continuing the war indefinitely in an unbreakable stalemate serves no compelling American interest. It’s an ugly and unfair solution for an ugly and unfair world.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Jolly
JĂŒrg Gassmann
JĂŒrg Gassmann
1 year ago

There is no “American” or “US” position – in the US political landscape, the country’s foreign/military policies is the dog being wagged by the tail of domestic politics and bureaucratic infighting. That’s how you get jihadis armed and trained by the CIA being bombed by the US Air Force.
It is also how you get a Ukrainian military strategy devised by the cream of neocon military strategists (Jake Sullivan, Victoria Nuland, Antony Blinken, etc) and relying on the Triumph of the Will, at odds with the sober and professional assessments by the career officers in the Pentagon.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Good God ! You can’t possibly believe that can you ? Either you are a UI or really are a Putin propagandist. Ukraine’s so called ‘Nazi problem’ is less than that of Moscow alone ! Have you ever been there ?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Exactly.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Exactly.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

Nuland and Blinken are neocons has-beens and have been partially responsible for every disastrous U.S. foreign policy decision since 2001. The fact that Biden has them up so high on the pedestal, in addition to the terrible “leadership” of Fauci and Walensky throughout Covid, only shows how utterly incompetent this administration actually is–and how they exist in this bubble that only really works for a tiny sliver of globalist elites. I’m coming from the populist-left in this critique, I despise Trump, but people like me are called “Putin lovers,” “Fascists,” and other ad-hominems for even questioning the blind leading the blind in one of the most corrupt administrations since Nixon.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Good God ! You can’t possibly believe that can you ? Either you are a UI or really are a Putin propagandist. Ukraine’s so called ‘Nazi problem’ is less than that of Moscow alone ! Have you ever been there ?

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

Nuland and Blinken are neocons has-beens and have been partially responsible for every disastrous U.S. foreign policy decision since 2001. The fact that Biden has them up so high on the pedestal, in addition to the terrible “leadership” of Fauci and Walensky throughout Covid, only shows how utterly incompetent this administration actually is–and how they exist in this bubble that only really works for a tiny sliver of globalist elites. I’m coming from the populist-left in this critique, I despise Trump, but people like me are called “Putin lovers,” “Fascists,” and other ad-hominems for even questioning the blind leading the blind in one of the most corrupt administrations since Nixon.

JĂŒrg Gassmann
JĂŒrg Gassmann
1 year ago

There is no “American” or “US” position – in the US political landscape, the country’s foreign/military policies is the dog being wagged by the tail of domestic politics and bureaucratic infighting. That’s how you get jihadis armed and trained by the CIA being bombed by the US Air Force.
It is also how you get a Ukrainian military strategy devised by the cream of neocon military strategists (Jake Sullivan, Victoria Nuland, Antony Blinken, etc) and relying on the Triumph of the Will, at odds with the sober and professional assessments by the career officers in the Pentagon.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago

“Ukraine has no choice but to continue fighting” … To the last Ukranian huh?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

To the last Russian…
Who hasn’t left yet.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Have you seen the advanced age of some conscripts over there? Be all you can be, Martin.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Most of Russia’s mobiks are pretty old.
But enough dodge the draft so that Putin will never have enough.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Most of Russia’s mobiks are pretty old.
But enough dodge the draft so that Putin will never have enough.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Have you seen the advanced age of some conscripts over there? Be all you can be, Martin.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve White

To the last Russian…
Who hasn’t left yet.

Steve White
Steve White
1 year ago

“Ukraine has no choice but to continue fighting” … To the last Ukranian huh?

David Wildgoose
David Wildgoose
1 year ago

The torture and murder of (ethnically Russian) Ukrainian citizens after Russia withdrew were undoubtedly carried out by Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as was widely pointed out at the time.

This entire tragedy should never have happened. American neo-cons goaded Putin into military action but the victims are ordinary Ukrainian citizens of all ethnic backgrounds.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

“American neo-cons goaded Putin into military action …”
Poor decent Putin, goaded beyond endurance lol.
Interesting. Do you have any credible corroboration for that assertion?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

The coup in 2014 engineered by Victoria Nuland isn’t enough goading for you?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Victoria Nuland did NOTHING except expressing verbally her delight that the Ukrainians chose to lean West and instead of being embraced by the loving arms of the bare chested Putin.
Recently I was discussing with some journalists and diplomats who could take over from Putin and whether a coup by the Russian Armed Forces might be possible. If there is a coup, it doesn’t mean I engineered it !

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Exactly.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Exactly.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Did Victoria Nuland sign these ? Or make Yanukovytch a russian stooge ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Exactly.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Exactly.

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

I’m laughing as I type this.
“Coups” take place in a matter of hours.
Maidan took place over many months–after a police riot turned a peaceful demonstration into a long term oncfrontation.
Then Yanukovich tried to save himself by killing 100 demonstrators.
After doing that, he paniced and fled. the Rada replaced.
So, was 1789 and 1848 in France a “coup?”
Just a Russian Skazka…

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Victoria Nuland did NOTHING except expressing verbally her delight that the Ukrainians chose to lean West and instead of being embraced by the loving arms of the bare chested Putin.
Recently I was discussing with some journalists and diplomats who could take over from Putin and whether a coup by the Russian Armed Forces might be possible. If there is a coup, it doesn’t mean I engineered it !

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Did Victoria Nuland sign these ? Or make Yanukovytch a russian stooge ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

I’m laughing as I type this.
“Coups” take place in a matter of hours.
Maidan took place over many months–after a police riot turned a peaceful demonstration into a long term oncfrontation.
Then Yanukovich tried to save himself by killing 100 demonstrators.
After doing that, he paniced and fled. the Rada replaced.
So, was 1789 and 1848 in France a “coup?”
Just a Russian Skazka…

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

The Minsk agreements being deliberate lies (per Merkel, Die Zeit, Dec-22) not enough for you?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

Russians must always be duped.
It’s their only real purpose.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

Russians must always be duped.
It’s their only real purpose.

Last edited 1 year ago by martin logan
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

The coup in 2014 engineered by Victoria Nuland isn’t enough goading for you?

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

The Minsk agreements being deliberate lies (per Merkel, Die Zeit, Dec-22) not enough for you?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Poor Putin.
He doubtless weeps every time he is forced to rocket an apartment building.
Pray for him!

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

He heads a gangster regime – we know that. It doesn’t make us or ukraine good. Only infants and idiots believe in stories always being about goodies and baddies.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

So why are you defending Minsk agreements if they were based on lies of a gangster regime ?

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago

They were based on the lies of Ukraine, Germany and France as I recall? Is that who you mean by a gangster regime? It was agreed that the secessionist regions would have the right to self-determination (you know, actual democracy in action), but Merkel admitted it was a lie to stall whilst the west pumped weapons and training into the rather appalling Ukrainian regime that came out of the western-backed coup.

Remember? Or aren’t you familiar with the subject?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

No, I was referring to Putin’s regime and Putin’s lies. Self determination ? Was that when Russian troops took over Crimea and Putin publicly denied Russia’s involvement ? Do Russians living under Putin’s 20 year regime get the right to self-determination ?
I’m familiar with the subject and I remember how the so called “peoples republics” came into existence and I can bring up many quotes by it’s founders like Pavel Gubarev and Igor Strelkov

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

No, I was referring to Putin’s regime and Putin’s lies. Self determination ? Was that when Russian troops took over Crimea and Putin publicly denied Russia’s involvement ? Do Russians living under Putin’s 20 year regime get the right to self-determination ?
I’m familiar with the subject and I remember how the so called “peoples republics” came into existence and I can bring up many quotes by it’s founders like Pavel Gubarev and Igor Strelkov

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Testosteroni
Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago

They were based on the lies of Ukraine, Germany and France as I recall? Is that who you mean by a gangster regime? It was agreed that the secessionist regions would have the right to self-determination (you know, actual democracy in action), but Merkel admitted it was a lie to stall whilst the west pumped weapons and training into the rather appalling Ukrainian regime that came out of the western-backed coup.

Remember? Or aren’t you familiar with the subject?

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

Not sure how the USA differs. Biden & Co. just jail their opponents but so far aren’t pushing them out of windows. Then again it seems like anything is possible with this corrupt Biden administration.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

So why are you defending Minsk agreements if they were based on lies of a gangster regime ?

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  Andy Iddon

Not sure how the USA differs. Biden & Co. just jail their opponents but so far aren’t pushing them out of windows. Then again it seems like anything is possible with this corrupt Biden administration.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cathy Carron
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Who on earth is downvoting you ! What a lot of pro Putin UI’s must post here. I thought it was a forum for independent thought but evidently not.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The cretin in the Kremlin has many friends on these threads.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

That’s a scary thought.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter B

That’s a scary thought.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Unfortunately it’s fast becoming a forum for people who think they’re special because they’ve spotted mistakes of the MSM/FBI/CIA/MI5/elites etc, and watched some Scott Ritter youtubes. They’re of the right wing, but as tedious, predictable and nose-led as the woke that they hate and need.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

It is indeed. The quality of comments is abysmal. Reading back comments of two years ago they were informative and polite.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The price of popularity! When Unherd first started it was very niche, now it is fast becoming the biggest respectable relatively open minded news source in the Anglosphere. So it has a higher ratio of charming and not so charming, nutters and also become the target of organised comment manipulation.
It looks as though Unherd are striving to keep that element under control, and also do their best to discourage the kind of mindless online aggression that often is unleashed by anonymity. Its by no means perfect, but we can help by not responding to obvious trolls at all, whether individual or organised. And by reminding each other to keep the quality up.
Rule 1, read the post twice slowly
.before hitting the POST COMMENT button.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The price of popularity! When Unherd first started it was very niche, now it is fast becoming the biggest respectable relatively open minded news source in the Anglosphere. So it has a higher ratio of charming and not so charming, nutters and also become the target of organised comment manipulation.
It looks as though Unherd are striving to keep that element under control, and also do their best to discourage the kind of mindless online aggression that often is unleashed by anonymity. Its by no means perfect, but we can help by not responding to obvious trolls at all, whether individual or organised. And by reminding each other to keep the quality up.
Rule 1, read the post twice slowly
.before hitting the POST COMMENT button.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

It is indeed. The quality of comments is abysmal. Reading back comments of two years ago they were informative and polite.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Do you actually understand the voting system? I don’t. It’s a complete mystery to me. Are you Logan is getting down voted?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Downvotes are a Badge of Honour if they come from St P.
I LOVE them!
Been getting them since 2014!
Paying the useless drones means that many fewer shells for Ukraine.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The names of the voters appear to be hidden to lower the emotional temerature. The curious monkey in me is of course ver disappointed by that, so I can’t see who my friends and enemies are, but on balance I’d rather not have the comments section dominated by chimps like me!

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Downvotes are a Badge of Honour if they come from St P.
I LOVE them!
Been getting them since 2014!
Paying the useless drones means that many fewer shells for Ukraine.

Stevie K
Stevie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The names of the voters appear to be hidden to lower the emotional temerature. The curious monkey in me is of course ver disappointed by that, so I can’t see who my friends and enemies are, but on balance I’d rather not have the comments section dominated by chimps like me!

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Fully agree. Disheartening to see the amount of red downvotes trickling down through this discussion board.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The cretin in the Kremlin has many friends on these threads.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Unfortunately it’s fast becoming a forum for people who think they’re special because they’ve spotted mistakes of the MSM/FBI/CIA/MI5/elites etc, and watched some Scott Ritter youtubes. They’re of the right wing, but as tedious, predictable and nose-led as the woke that they hate and need.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Do you actually understand the voting system? I don’t. It’s a complete mystery to me. Are you Logan is getting down voted?

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Fully agree. Disheartening to see the amount of red downvotes trickling down through this discussion board.

Andy Iddon
Andy Iddon
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

He heads a gangster regime – we know that. It doesn’t make us or ukraine good. Only infants and idiots believe in stories always being about goodies and baddies.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Who on earth is downvoting you ! What a lot of pro Putin UI’s must post here. I thought it was a forum for independent thought but evidently not.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

Wow – you’ve swallowed hook line and sinker, Putin/FSB’s agit-prop in preparation for the war. Did the same thing in Georgia and in Chechnya . No better than the US’s excuses for Iraq, which I’d imagine you didn’t buy? Don’t believe either.

https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/china/disinformation-about-russias-invasion-ukraine-debunking-seven-myths-spread-russia_en?s=166

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

We simply didn’t look hard enough for Saddam’s WMD; it’s such a shame we didn’t have deboonkers to set us straight back then.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

It does say something that ‘we’ didn’t just ‘find them’.
After all that was standard operational procedure for Scotland Yard and many other such organisations for eons. I gather the technical term is to ‘plant’ evidence.

Perhaps this time ‘we’ just knew we would be found out, which would have been even more embarrassing than just waging an aggressive war/invasion.*

(* A capital charge for which not a few were hanged at Nuremberg, as you may recall.)

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

Well, ‘we’ were a bit more ambitious in Syria what with sponsoring amateur dramatics to prove al-Assad was using his very real chemical weapons. BTW disappointed to see you using eon and not aeon or, ideally, ĂŠon. Are you an undercover Yankee? A, dare I say it, counterfeit Brit?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

No just idle!
Yes Syria was farcical, but fortunately despite all the hype it failed.

ps. I don’t think my rather elderly I-pad can type Æ!*
How did you manage it?

(* Cut and paste!)

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

Yes, for all the unpleasantness ‘our’ boys visited upon Syria (idle hands, what with no longer having the opportunity to engage my kinsmen in Ulster or Gibraltar) at least we never saw American marines posing on the ‘hoods’ of Pontiacs and Lincolns in Damascus or Aleppo.
Yes, one copies & pastes ĂŠ Ă€ ĂȘ ё Ăš Ă¶ and all the other ‘archaic’ diacritics to shame those lesser sons and daughters of Albion, Oxbridge-‘educated’, indifferent to the wealth of their mother tongue.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

Yes, for all the unpleasantness ‘our’ boys visited upon Syria (idle hands, what with no longer having the opportunity to engage my kinsmen in Ulster or Gibraltar) at least we never saw American marines posing on the ‘hoods’ of Pontiacs and Lincolns in Damascus or Aleppo.
Yes, one copies & pastes ĂŠ Ă€ ĂȘ ё Ăš Ă¶ and all the other ‘archaic’ diacritics to shame those lesser sons and daughters of Albion, Oxbridge-‘educated’, indifferent to the wealth of their mother tongue.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

No just idle!
Yes Syria was farcical, but fortunately despite all the hype it failed.

ps. I don’t think my rather elderly I-pad can type Æ!*
How did you manage it?

(* Cut and paste!)

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago

Well, ‘we’ were a bit more ambitious in Syria what with sponsoring amateur dramatics to prove al-Assad was using his very real chemical weapons. BTW disappointed to see you using eon and not aeon or, ideally, ĂŠon. Are you an undercover Yankee? A, dare I say it, counterfeit Brit?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

What you are ignoring is that Saddam’s scientists may have lied to him about what they had achieved. Most engineers and scientists with technical ability were working in ME in other countries. If Saddam orders a scientist to make WMDs failing to comply would result in torture and death for them and their families.
In WW2 when it came to assessing whether the Nazis were capable of making atom bombs they had scientists of the calibre of Schrodinger, Hahn and Heisenberg plus a vast industrial capability. Iraq had no such people.
I have never seen a description of Iraq’s technical capability which showed it could have produced WMD.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

It does say something that ‘we’ didn’t just ‘find them’.
After all that was standard operational procedure for Scotland Yard and many other such organisations for eons. I gather the technical term is to ‘plant’ evidence.

Perhaps this time ‘we’ just knew we would be found out, which would have been even more embarrassing than just waging an aggressive war/invasion.*

(* A capital charge for which not a few were hanged at Nuremberg, as you may recall.)

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
1 year ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

What you are ignoring is that Saddam’s scientists may have lied to him about what they had achieved. Most engineers and scientists with technical ability were working in ME in other countries. If Saddam orders a scientist to make WMDs failing to comply would result in torture and death for them and their families.
In WW2 when it came to assessing whether the Nazis were capable of making atom bombs they had scientists of the calibre of Schrodinger, Hahn and Heisenberg plus a vast industrial capability. Iraq had no such people.
I have never seen a description of Iraq’s technical capability which showed it could have produced WMD.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Spot on.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

We simply didn’t look hard enough for Saddam’s WMD; it’s such a shame we didn’t have deboonkers to set us straight back then.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Spot on.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Can you be more specific ?

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Clearly he cannot. No surprise.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Clearly he cannot. No surprise.

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Disgusting putin regime apologists still regurgitating the same Nazi nonsense as russian state tv pumps out war and genocide propaganda on a daily basis. Meanwhile Russia has wagner group, barrier troops, human trafficking, drug trafficking, 3rd world corruption, political assassinations, political prisoners etc

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Disgusting putin regime apologists still regurgitating the same Nazi nonsense as russian state tv pumps out war and genocide propaganda on a daily basis. Meanwhile Russia has wagner group, barrier troops, human trafficking, drug trafficking, 3rd world corruption, political assassinations, political prisoners etc

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

“American neo-cons goaded Putin into military action …”
Poor decent Putin, goaded beyond endurance lol.
Interesting. Do you have any credible corroboration for that assertion?

martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

Poor Putin.
He doubtless weeps every time he is forced to rocket an apartment building.
Pray for him!

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

Wow – you’ve swallowed hook line and sinker, Putin/FSB’s agit-prop in preparation for the war. Did the same thing in Georgia and in Chechnya . No better than the US’s excuses for Iraq, which I’d imagine you didn’t buy? Don’t believe either.

https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/china/disinformation-about-russias-invasion-ukraine-debunking-seven-myths-spread-russia_en?s=166

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Can you be more specific ?

Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Disgusting putin regime apologists still regurgitating the same Nazi nonsense as russian state tv pumps out war and genocide propaganda on a daily basis. Meanwhile Russia has wagner group, barrier troops, human trafficking, drug trafficking, 3rd world corruption, political assassinations, political prisoners etc

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
Tony Testosteroni
1 year ago

Disgusting putin regime apologists still regurgitating the same Nazi nonsense as russian state tv pumps out war and genocide propaganda on a daily basis. Meanwhile Russia has wagner group, barrier troops, human trafficking, drug trafficking, 3rd world corruption, political assassinations, political prisoners etc

David Wildgoose
David Wildgoose
1 year ago

The torture and murder of (ethnically Russian) Ukrainian citizens after Russia withdrew were undoubtedly carried out by Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as was widely pointed out at the time.

This entire tragedy should never have happened. American neo-cons goaded Putin into military action but the victims are ordinary Ukrainian citizens of all ethnic backgrounds.

Chuck Burns
Chuck Burns