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What’s the point of the Women’s World Cup? Grandiose claims about deeper meaning aren't always the answer

Not Ed Davey. (Jose Breton/Pics Action/NurPhoto via Getty Images)

Not Ed Davey. (Jose Breton/Pics Action/NurPhoto via Getty Images)


August 19, 2023   6 mins

A useful guide to the significance of a sporting achievement can be gleaned from how desperate politicians are to be associated with it. And given that within minutes of England’s 3-1 World Cup semi-final win over Australia on Wednesday, Lib Dem leader Ed Davey had posted a staggeringly wooden shot of himself celebrating victory in a pub, it can safely be said that England reaching the Women’s World Cup final is a very big deal indeed.

At least Davey appeared to know what was going on. Barnaby Joyce, Australia’s former deputy prime minister, posted celebratory photos after inadvertently watching an old game rather than Australia’s quarter-final win over France. But the broader point is the same: politicians in both the UK and Australia have been desperate to leap aboard the bandwagon.

In the UK, the Lionesses’ successes have been splashed across front as well as back pages. Viewing figures have been extraordinary, particularly given games are being played in the mornings: 7.2 million people watched England’s quarter-final win over Colombia (only 300,000 fewer than watched the finale of Happy Valley) and, given the final of the Euros last year drew 11.2 million, it’s safe to assume Sunday’s final against Spain will attract well over 10 million. it may even challenge the Coronation, which drew 12.03 million, as the most-watched programme of the year. What that means is far harder to say.

It is common in the wake of sporting successes to make great claims about their wider significance. Yet history isn’t always a helpful guide. Despite South Africa’s rugby union World Cup win in 1995 and footballing success at the Africa Cup of Nations the following year, it is not a happy and harmonious rainbow nation. Nor did the victory of France’s “Black-Blanc-Beur” side at the 1998 football World Cup end prejudice and racial tension there. Which is not to say that those triumphs and the celebrations that followed were worthless: symbols can still have value even if the ideal they represent remains distant, perhaps unattainable.

Jules Rimet, the French Fifa president who oversaw the birth of the men’s tournament, believed the World Cup would be a force for good, fostering greater understanding and brotherhood among nations. Even at the first World Cup, in 1930, it must have been hard to maintain that idealism as the Argentina captain Luis Monti received death threats from Uruguayan fans before the final, after which Uruguayan property in Buenos Aires was stoned and torched. By 1934 in Italy, when Mussolini took charge and turned the tournament into a celebration of fascism, it became impossible.

But then what can be expected from sport? The Olympic Games was launched in 1896 with similarly high-minded ideals; its sixth edition, scheduled for Berlin in 1916, had to be abandoned because of the First World War. Nobody, though, could realistically say, as a result, that Baron De Courbertin had failed. 

So, what are major sporting events for? The expense of the London Olympics, which in retrospect can feel like a halcyon fortnight of success and national pride, was justified in part by the supposed health benefits brought by increased participation. As it turned out, participation decreased in each of the three years that followed, although there were economic benefits. 

Again, it would be easy to be cynical but the context is important. The Games were awarded to London on 6 July 2005. A day later, 52 people were killed and hundreds injured in attacks on the city’s transport network by four suicide bombers. As Emeli Sandé’s rendition of “Abide With Me” at the opening ceremony made clear, the two events were linked: the Games became about defiance, about the assertion of De Coubertin’s ideals of human striving in the face of terror. Munich in 1972 and Atlanta in 1996 faced that issue far more directly.

In Australia, this World Cup has created an unprecedented buzz around football and women’s sport. The semi-final was the most watched TV event in Australian history, surpassing Cathy Freeman’s 400m gold medal at the Sydney Olympics in 2000. Yet the example of Freeman shows how fragile the supposed lessons of sport can be. At the time, it was claimed that Freeman’s success heralded a new, more inclusive Australia, yet just a year later the Australian government turned away the Tampa, a Norwegian freighter laden with asylum seekers it had rescued from the seas north of Christmas Island. 

This year, nobody is making any grandiose claims about the broader significance of England’s progress to the final. Attempts to draw sweeping lessons from the fact that England are thriving under Sarina Wiegman when they struggled under Phil Neville are probably best avoided, unless the lesson is simply never to appoint Phil Neville. 

Sport, after all, rarely offers straightforward messages. Consider England men’s success in the 1966 World Cup. After the various embarrassments of the Fifties, it was a reassertion of English supremacy, the mother of the game striking back. But what did that mean? The greatest of those embarrassments had come at Wembley in November 1953 with a 6-3 defeat to Hungary, the first time England had ever lost at home to non-British or Irish opposition. The symbolism of that result seemed obvious: dynamic, modern, socialist Hungary upsetting moribund old imperial England at what was then still called the Empire Stadium. It was a footballing precursor of Suez — even if, as British troops landed in Egypt in October 1956, Hungary was rising up against its Communist leaders; the narrative of British decline was far more solid than that of the Hungarian future.

The wider context of 1966, however, was not the return of imperial might but of Britain — or at least England — embracing the new reality and undergoing reinvention as a home of a vibrant and irreverent youth culture. Alf Ramsey may have been a (very) unlikely leader of it, but his England side, captained by the ineffably cool Bobby Moore, became part of swinging London. That mood was embodied in the tournament mascot, World Cup Willie, a lion with a Beatle haircut in a Union flag jersey, which chimed with the use of the flag and roundel in pop art and by bands such as The Who. The imperial lion had been transformed into something cheeky and welcoming, but it was also a commercial ploy, the first time a World Cup had thought to devise a mascot whose image could transform T-shirts and tea-towels into saleable souvenirs.

While there was certainly celebration in 1966 — it was, an AA spokesman said, “like VE Night, election night and New Year’s Eve rolled into one” — the sense is of something more contained. In the week after the final, newspaper follow-ups tended to consist of apologies from writers who had doubted Ramsey and reflections on what success might mean for the popularity of English domestic football. Nobody was talking then about a post-imperial nation rediscovering its roar, but with an ironic edge.

“Sunny Afternoon” by the Kinks was displaced at number one in the charts on the Saturday of the quarter-final but, as Dominic Sandbrook notes in White Heat, it captured the general mood: the weather was good, wages were up, and, with Britain feted for everything from James Bond to Mary Quant, David Hockney to David Bailey, The Beatles to The Rolling Stones, the World Cup win was confirmation of the self-confidence of the age. Thirty years later, England men’s progress to the semi-final of Euro 96 felt similarly linked to a blossoming of British culture, to Blur and Oasis, Damien Hirst and Danny Boyle — who, of course, would shape much of the narrative around London 2012 by directing the opening ceremony. Even Bond had emerged from a six-year hiatus with the release of Goldeneye eight months earlier.

It is different when you’re not hosting, of course, but this World Cup hasn’t felt part of a cultural moment, even if it has been far more mainstream and of a far higher standard than any previous women’s tournament. Quite rightly, there are concerns about the disparity in funding in the women’s game in different regions, but none of the debutants have looked out of their depth; there have been no thrashings like the 13-0 defeat Thailand suffered against the USA four years ago.

Quality of football is one thing, but what makes a tournament is moments and narrative, and this is a World Cup that has had both in abundance: the Lauren James stamp, the Sam Kerr equaliser, the doomed beauty of Japan’s play, the early exits of Germany and Brazil, Megan Rapinoe’s missed penalty against Sweden, Linda Caicedo recovering from cancer to score against Germany, Thembi Kgatlana’s late winner for South Africa against Italy, Spain’s progress despite the mutiny against their coach, Ella Toone’s thunderous finish

England, in particular, has been provided with a new clutch of role models, from the buccaneering Lucy Bronze to the rapid Lauren Hemp to the scheming Keira Walsh. Available again after suspension for her red card against Nigeria, there could yet be a redemption tale for Lauren James. At the heart of it all has been Wiegman, who has reached her fourth final in her fourth major tournament. Commanding and undemonstrative, she was able to field the same starting XI in every game in leading England to the Euros last summer; this time, with injury ruling out three key players, she has had to be far more flexible and the result has been football that, while less expansive, has probably been all the more impressive. (Although, of course, it is indicative of the advantages England enjoy over other nations in terms of funding that they could afford to appoint the Dutch coach).

But perhaps the specifics matter less than the fact that England are playing well in a tournament that palpably matters. Success at the Euros did raise participation, with 32% of girls now playing football at break-time at school compared to 22% before that tournament. Women’s Super League attendances also rose dramatically last season and will presumably keep going up, increasing revenue and opportunity.

Whether this is part of some wider cultural movement, whether that matters and how long any impact lasts, it is almost certainly too early to tell. But this is undoubtedly very good news for women’s football in England. As to how good, perhaps the best guide would be to ask Davey or Joyce what they made of a game in a year or two.


Jonathan Wilson is a columnist for the Guardian, the editor of the Blizzard, the co-host of the podcast It Was What It Was and author of 12 books on football history and one novel.

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Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

The basic premise of this piece is rather stretched and nonsensical. What surprises me though is that commenters here are taken aback by this – as it should be very obvious that women’s football, how it’s viewed and it’s media coverage, has been hijacked by “progressives” and politicised. Of course it has to be about “inclusion”, the “wider significance”, how it’s good that England fans are watching women’s football even though it’s inferior compared to men, simply out of pride for nation – while simultaneously deriding that concept of national pride and joy because it’s icky and Brexitey.

Now, I have a daughter who I constantly push towards stuff like gaming, coding, tech, football – not to “compete” against boys but to ensure she doesn’t grow up all girly and shallow.
But it’s very evident when it comes to football or cricket, she and other girls I know have very little interest (in contrast to boys her own age).

And it’s also fairly obvious that the standards of women’s sports are abysmal compared to men. Biology, and bodies tuned to ease childbirth rather than throwing stuff.

But, if you follow the coverage, and it’s quite overwhelming media coverage (which should be a clue), the message is not “there is some tournament on, watch it if interested, England winning hurrah”. It’s all about how women’s football must be treated at par with men, and how it’s unacceptable that football roughly equivalent to the 3rd tier division 1 or worse doesn’t get the same audiences and pay as Messi and co.

The ones pushing that stuff are exactly – almost precisely – the same idiots who think it’s awful that we don’t just let boatloads of immigrants jump over to Western countries (while they themselves stay in mostly white upper class gated suburbs), believe in multiculturalism or think Brexiteers are the spawn of Satan.

Hence articles like this.

And whether it’s “very good news for women’s football” is questionable, because this same lot of people would also support trans – of course they would.
So we might hilariously end up with women’s footballers being artificially brought closer to par with men pay wise – while simultaneously being overrun with 3rd rate men pretending to be women.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

How in the name of sanity do you manage to shoehorn immigrants and wokeness into a sneering post about women’s football?
What’s the point of you mate
https://ayenaw.com/2023/08/19/world-cup-final/

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

If you do not want to address the argument an ad hominin attack is a poor substitute

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I’d love to see some stats on how often different subscribers end up in “the red zone”. It would be amusing.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

If you do not want to address the argument an ad hominin attack is a poor substitute

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I’d love to see some stats on how often different subscribers end up in “the red zone”. It would be amusing.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Women’s football is not ‘inferior’ to men’s, it’s different. And ‘standards of women’s sports are abysmal compared to men’ – absolute b0oll0cks! I referee women’s rugby a fair bit at, assorted lower levels, and they are usually techinically superior to the equivalent men’s standard (‘cos they listen to their coaches!) if a tad slower and they cheat less (makes it easier to ref) – and also obviously enjoy it more than the boys.

Watch top international women’s rugby and tell me it ain’t physical!

BTW I agree that pay should be linked to income generated. Professional sport is not a game, it’s paid-for entertainment.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Price
Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Having refereed the men’s game, and then done a number of women’s games, the difference in standard and ability is night and day – men are so much better, and even under 18s would make mincemeat of international women’s teams (and did, when the then world champion women’s team, the USA, were hammered by an amateur under 17 boys team). The difference in behaviour isn’t, women are just as bad, and just as foul mouthed.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dominic S
harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Men crowing about how “superior” men’s sport is compared to women’s may be obvious, but because it’s so obvious, it’s not a good look. Of COURSE women’s football (and rugby, and basketball, and hockey) is “inferior” to men’s in terms of speed and strength. So what? It’s like saying Husain Bolt runs faster than any woman. We know. It’s irrelevant, even to the pay “issue,” where the only thing that matters is how much the game brings in.

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

The refereeing in many women’s games is awful… as it was in the World Cup.
It’s big of you to own up.
The fact that any decent U18 men’s team can beat any team in the World Cup is irrelevant. The women’s game is different, but no less enjoyable and increasingly, no less skillfull.
There is no woman player in history in Tennis who would get to the last 32 of any men’s comp. No women’s rugby team could play any U16 decent boys team. No women’s sprinter, or any other runner, would make the heats of men’s sprints.
Are women not supposed to play sport at all in your world?

Tim Richards
Tim Richards
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

I don’t think the argument is about whether women should play any sport but whether their entertainment value entitles them or is worthy of equal remuneration whether salary or prize money. I bet at most tennis clubs, like mine, when members are involved in a ballot for tickets to Wimbledon there is great disappointment from almost all when they are offered a ticket to a predominately woman day.

Tim Richards
Tim Richards
1 year ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

I don’t think the argument is about whether women should play any sport but whether their entertainment value entitles them or is worthy of equal remuneration whether salary or prize money. I bet at most tennis clubs, like mine, when members are involved in a ballot for tickets to Wimbledon there is great disappointment from almost all when they are offered a ticket to a predominately woman day.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Men crowing about how “superior” men’s sport is compared to women’s may be obvious, but because it’s so obvious, it’s not a good look. Of COURSE women’s football (and rugby, and basketball, and hockey) is “inferior” to men’s in terms of speed and strength. So what? It’s like saying Husain Bolt runs faster than any woman. We know. It’s irrelevant, even to the pay “issue,” where the only thing that matters is how much the game brings in.

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

The refereeing in many women’s games is awful… as it was in the World Cup.
It’s big of you to own up.
The fact that any decent U18 men’s team can beat any team in the World Cup is irrelevant. The women’s game is different, but no less enjoyable and increasingly, no less skillfull.
There is no woman player in history in Tennis who would get to the last 32 of any men’s comp. No women’s rugby team could play any U16 decent boys team. No women’s sprinter, or any other runner, would make the heats of men’s sprints.
Are women not supposed to play sport at all in your world?

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Technically superior? Not sure about that. There’s little to be gained from lying.

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

…I Agree with Tony about rugby actually, except when it comes to kicking the ball. Which is also the problem in women’s football, which makes it less watchable for me.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Bernard Hill

That used to be the case but surprisingly if practised women are just as technically good at kicking, just that usually it don’t go as far! Have you watched the ongoing women’s soccer WC? – a couple of the goals have been astonishing, and I believe that one penalty was measured as harder than any recent male effort!

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Yep. Been to some of the games! But speed on the ball is still well short of the men’s game, and most attempted power shots have been just that, attempts.

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Yep. Been to some of the games! But speed on the ball is still well short of the men’s game, and most attempted power shots have been just that, attempts.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Bernard Hill

That used to be the case but surprisingly if practised women are just as technically good at kicking, just that usually it don’t go as far! Have you watched the ongoing women’s soccer WC? – a couple of the goals have been astonishing, and I believe that one penalty was measured as harder than any recent male effort!

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

How many women’s games have you watched or refereed?

Kit Read
Kit Read
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

It is indicative that people get excited about Women being in a World Cup Tournament only if they are playing a “typical” male game such a Rugby Union or League & cricket but when the England team was in the Netball World Cup Final in South africa a fw weeks ago the coverage was negligible

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Kit Read

Personally much prefer to watch netball – you don’t get all of the aping of male behaviour that you see in women’s football. The only reason that football gets so much attention is because men play it too.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Kit Read

Personally much prefer to watch netball – you don’t get all of the aping of male behaviour that you see in women’s football. The only reason that football gets so much attention is because men play it too.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jane Anderson
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

If they were technically superior, I guess they’d be playing in the men’s Premier League. But they’re not.
To be fair, the Spanish (in the 13 mins of added time I watched today) did look like they were actually playing decent football – and in the style of the men’s Spanish team. That is demonstrating the ability to quickly and precisely pass the ball and keep possession without endlessly turning it over to the other team. The “unforced error” rate in the WWC matches I’d seen was an order of magnitude higher than in the professional men’s game. Quality matters.

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

…I Agree with Tony about rugby actually, except when it comes to kicking the ball. Which is also the problem in women’s football, which makes it less watchable for me.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

How many women’s games have you watched or refereed?

Kit Read
Kit Read
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

It is indicative that people get excited about Women being in a World Cup Tournament only if they are playing a “typical” male game such a Rugby Union or League & cricket but when the England team was in the Netball World Cup Final in South africa a fw weeks ago the coverage was negligible

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Steve Farrell

If they were technically superior, I guess they’d be playing in the men’s Premier League. But they’re not.
To be fair, the Spanish (in the 13 mins of added time I watched today) did look like they were actually playing decent football – and in the style of the men’s Spanish team. That is demonstrating the ability to quickly and precisely pass the ball and keep possession without endlessly turning it over to the other team. The “unforced error” rate in the WWC matches I’d seen was an order of magnitude higher than in the professional men’s game. Quality matters.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

When I was younger First Division professional footballers earned in the region two hundred pound a week. A lot of money but still not many multiple of average earnings. The players were still grounded in the community and you would occasionally see them out and about. I remember bumping into Gordon Banks and Geoff Hurst in the café at Stoke railway station completing insurance forms. It not being possible to make enough money from football, even at the highest level, to be able to retire when they finished playing, they had to take up selling insurance.
At the time those that controlled the game fought tooth and nail to try to keep out television and it was the advent of Sky that turned top fight football into a billion £ business which was a relevantly recent development.
On the one hand what top flight payers now earn can be seen as an abomination. On the other, misgivings about the system aside, they generate the income so why should they not keep it. Either way I sometimes berate my colleagues for giving their support and money to multi-millionaires with whom they have no connection. I try to encourage them to a proper sport like darts.
My problem with the push for women’s football is two-fold. First, the male game is an abomination; corrupt, awash with dubious money, tied to out of control gambling interests and sold to a gullible public by a bought and paid for MSM. Why would you want to replicate it?
Second, women’s football it is not a genuine organic evolution. It is being pushed by a bunch of activists who are in a position to ensure that it receives much more media and television coverage than it merits. As Mr Iker points out, these are almost precisely the same enemies who think it’s awful that we don’t just let in boatloads of immigrants, while they themselves reside in mostly white upper class gated enclaves, believe in multiculturalism, think Brexiteers are the spawn of Satan and who support the participation of transwomen in women’s sport.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

“It is being pushed by a bunch of activists who are in a position to ensure that it receives much more media and television coverage than it merits.”

Absolutely spot on. As somebody else has pointed out, the women’s netball final got zero coverage. Why? Because it’s a girl’s game and there’s no agenda to push.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

“It is being pushed by a bunch of activists who are in a position to ensure that it receives much more media and television coverage than it merits.”

Absolutely spot on. As somebody else has pointed out, the women’s netball final got zero coverage. Why? Because it’s a girl’s game and there’s no agenda to push.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Spot on… showbiz for sweaty people, just as politics is showbiz for ugly people.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Having refereed the men’s game, and then done a number of women’s games, the difference in standard and ability is night and day – men are so much better, and even under 18s would make mincemeat of international women’s teams (and did, when the then world champion women’s team, the USA, were hammered by an amateur under 17 boys team). The difference in behaviour isn’t, women are just as bad, and just as foul mouthed.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dominic S
Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Technically superior? Not sure about that. There’s little to be gained from lying.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

When I was younger First Division professional footballers earned in the region two hundred pound a week. A lot of money but still not many multiple of average earnings. The players were still grounded in the community and you would occasionally see them out and about. I remember bumping into Gordon Banks and Geoff Hurst in the café at Stoke railway station completing insurance forms. It not being possible to make enough money from football, even at the highest level, to be able to retire when they finished playing, they had to take up selling insurance.
At the time those that controlled the game fought tooth and nail to try to keep out television and it was the advent of Sky that turned top fight football into a billion £ business which was a relevantly recent development.
On the one hand what top flight payers now earn can be seen as an abomination. On the other, misgivings about the system aside, they generate the income so why should they not keep it. Either way I sometimes berate my colleagues for giving their support and money to multi-millionaires with whom they have no connection. I try to encourage them to a proper sport like darts.
My problem with the push for women’s football is two-fold. First, the male game is an abomination; corrupt, awash with dubious money, tied to out of control gambling interests and sold to a gullible public by a bought and paid for MSM. Why would you want to replicate it?
Second, women’s football it is not a genuine organic evolution. It is being pushed by a bunch of activists who are in a position to ensure that it receives much more media and television coverage than it merits. As Mr Iker points out, these are almost precisely the same enemies who think it’s awful that we don’t just let in boatloads of immigrants, while they themselves reside in mostly white upper class gated enclaves, believe in multiculturalism, think Brexiteers are the spawn of Satan and who support the participation of transwomen in women’s sport.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Spot on… showbiz for sweaty people, just as politics is showbiz for ugly people.

Sue Ward
Sue Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Interesting conflation of girly and shallow. Is it shallow to be able to cook? Is coding more worthy than being able to draw or sew? Why must girls be forced into traditionally male sports at the expense of say netball, ballet, horse riding? If your daughter chooses to be girly it doesn’t mean she’s shallow.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sue Ward
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

You are right, and “shallow” probably a bad word to use. But I would plead that the fault isn’t mine, it’s certain very vociferous voices in our society who elevate activities typically done by men – sports, coding, computer games – to be something precious and superior, which girls must attain – and a lot of gnashing of teeth because it’s still mostly men in those spheres, ignoring the fact that girls are mostly just not interested.

And I do agree that it’s nonsense, and having an interest in cooking is no less of a hobby than football. But I am constantly bombarded with messaging that says that cooking, sewing, netball is somehow inferior and women doing those are somehow losing out, and it’s difficult to avoid being sucked in.

That being said, I would still maintain that it’s nice for girls to at least take an interest and try out what’s “boy” stuff (and vice versa, I don’t see any reason why boys can figure out cooking etc). If eventually she decides that’s not for her, fair enough.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Trouble with sports culture at boys’ schools is that each new coach they hire wants you to ‘at least consider’ his sport when all previous attempts have found that you have zero talent to match your total lack of interest.
They challenge this by saying ‘but if you were better at it, you’d be interested right?’ ‘Well, yeah, maybe, slightly, but I’m not.’ And then the circle continues as they try out with you, in hopes of finding some ability in you, in order to spur interest, seeing as cultivating interest in order to spur effort in becoming more able has failed.
At the heart of all this is discomfort about the recalcitrant group of boys who they well know are likely to be homosexual.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

I don’t get how you arrived at homosexuality from your lack of interest in playing sports.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I was talking about their suspicions. It was true in my case, not true in others.

It really sucked to be heterosexual and uninterested in / bad at sport in that era.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I was talking about their suspicions. It was true in my case, not true in others.

It really sucked to be heterosexual and uninterested in / bad at sport in that era.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

I don’t get how you arrived at homosexuality from your lack of interest in playing sports.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I would hope that as a parent you would have enough backbone to be able to withstand social pressures and do what is ethical, so you set an example for your children when they are, inevitably, faced with difficult choices.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Trouble with sports culture at boys’ schools is that each new coach they hire wants you to ‘at least consider’ his sport when all previous attempts have found that you have zero talent to match your total lack of interest.
They challenge this by saying ‘but if you were better at it, you’d be interested right?’ ‘Well, yeah, maybe, slightly, but I’m not.’ And then the circle continues as they try out with you, in hopes of finding some ability in you, in order to spur interest, seeing as cultivating interest in order to spur effort in becoming more able has failed.
At the heart of all this is discomfort about the recalcitrant group of boys who they well know are likely to be homosexual.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I would hope that as a parent you would have enough backbone to be able to withstand social pressures and do what is ethical, so you set an example for your children when they are, inevitably, faced with difficult choices.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

But Sue, isn’t there a powerful strain of feminism that insists on measuring the success of their movement by reference to the extent to which women are participating in what you would call non-girly activities and occupations?

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

Yes – university professors who work 15 hours a week 8 months of the year say that other women have to work 60 hours a week on the partnership track at a law firm or engineering firm or they have let the side down.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

Yes – university professors who work 15 hours a week 8 months of the year say that other women have to work 60 hours a week on the partnership track at a law firm or engineering firm or they have let the side down.

Helen Nevitt
Helen Nevitt
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

I don’t like football and like it played not very well even less. I don’t like women’s football but if people do, that’s not a problem.
What I don’t get is why it’s feminist not to value women and what women do well. Why is it feminist to celebrate women doing something devised by and for men in the 19th century, aping some of the worst aspects of male behaviour and crippling yourself to boot?
And why I get stony silence or outright abuse if I politely say I don’t like women’s football? To be honest, it hasn’t been much of a problem; hardly anyone has mentioned it during this World Cup despite this alleged massive interest.

Last edited 1 year ago by Helen Nevitt
Robert Routledge
Robert Routledge
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

Maybe some girls/women love football and see no reason to not only watch football but play it too!! Some of which are good enough to be paid to play football so are they really trying to prove something or just love football?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Well said.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago

spot on.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Well said.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago

spot on.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

You are right, and “shallow” probably a bad word to use. But I would plead that the fault isn’t mine, it’s certain very vociferous voices in our society who elevate activities typically done by men – sports, coding, computer games – to be something precious and superior, which girls must attain – and a lot of gnashing of teeth because it’s still mostly men in those spheres, ignoring the fact that girls are mostly just not interested.

And I do agree that it’s nonsense, and having an interest in cooking is no less of a hobby than football. But I am constantly bombarded with messaging that says that cooking, sewing, netball is somehow inferior and women doing those are somehow losing out, and it’s difficult to avoid being sucked in.

That being said, I would still maintain that it’s nice for girls to at least take an interest and try out what’s “boy” stuff (and vice versa, I don’t see any reason why boys can figure out cooking etc). If eventually she decides that’s not for her, fair enough.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

But Sue, isn’t there a powerful strain of feminism that insists on measuring the success of their movement by reference to the extent to which women are participating in what you would call non-girly activities and occupations?

Helen Nevitt
Helen Nevitt
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

I don’t like football and like it played not very well even less. I don’t like women’s football but if people do, that’s not a problem.
What I don’t get is why it’s feminist not to value women and what women do well. Why is it feminist to celebrate women doing something devised by and for men in the 19th century, aping some of the worst aspects of male behaviour and crippling yourself to boot?
And why I get stony silence or outright abuse if I politely say I don’t like women’s football? To be honest, it hasn’t been much of a problem; hardly anyone has mentioned it during this World Cup despite this alleged massive interest.

Last edited 1 year ago by Helen Nevitt
Robert Routledge
Robert Routledge
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Ward

Maybe some girls/women love football and see no reason to not only watch football but play it too!! Some of which are good enough to be paid to play football so are they really trying to prove something or just love football?

Keith Raymond
Keith Raymond
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I like the women’s game because there’s more time playing and less time thrashing on the pitch looking for penalties.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Ignore the slobbering sentimentalists Iker – and no sport provokes slobbering sentimentaliity as effectively as “the beautiful game” (yuk!). Your comment holds true.
The current mania is more about the loud clanking feminist propaganda machine than the game itself. With every pundit and his progressive wife straining to display their support for those sentimentally dubbed “Lionesses”, you just know where the next contest will be fought: in the arena of equity in financial rewards, equity in celebrity status, equity in media exposure, equity in everything they can get away with.
Yet, if in five to ten years, girls fail to show the widespread, patriarchy-challenging, enthusiasm for soccer that feminists expect of them then social conditioning will be blamed (of course).

Last edited 1 year ago by N Satori
Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

“It’s all about how women’s football must be treated at par with men, and how it’s unacceptable that football roughly equivalent to the 3rd tier division 1 or worse doesn’t get the same audiences and pay as Messi and co.”

There’s a difference between equal performance and equal respect.

In most sports men have an average performance advantage and therefore at the elite end men will overwhelmingly beat women. This is evident in everything from tennis club pyramids to park run times to Olympic finals. But it doesn’t mean female athletes are less worthy of respect. An exceptional female athlete is an exceptional athlete.

As for earning as much as Messi, I’ve never seen anyone suggest that. If I did I wouldn’t agree with it. Messi’s salary is driven by his value within the men’s football economy which is still much bigger than women’s.

What I do hope is that the popularity and financial value of women’s football (and other sports) continues to grow and as a result the players in turn benefit from increased financial rewards.

If, for the sake of argument, in 10 years time women’s football is as popular and financially lucrative as men’s, then I would see no problem in the best female players being paid “as much as Messi”.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

That men have a massive performance advantage DOES matter. People want to watch the best. People want to pay for the best, and simply are not interested in second best.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

You massively overstate the case.
I agree people are more interested in the best (in raw performance terms) and will pay a premium to watch the best. That’s why, for example, the men’s 100 metres final is watched y more people than the women’s. The men’s 100 metres champion is the fastest human, whereas the women’s 100 metres champion is the fastest woman.
But there’s a massive amount of room between the best and “not interested”. There are lots of examples of sports which thrive in that space: The English Championship (our 2nd tier) gets higher attendances some many major 1st tier leagues. Master’s golf is massively popular and lucrative. Champions flyweights still draw crowds even though they couldn’t beat a moderate heavyweight.
And of course, women’s football attendance, viewing etc are all growing, Will it ever be as big as men’s football? No, I doubt it ever will be and some of that is down to the raw performance gap. But there’s plenty of room to grow that interest into and make it to be a viable, lucrative sport for its participants.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

He’s right. It’s an entertainment business. Like West End shows or concerts. There’s no case for “equal pay” when the product or service being offered is of a lower quality. You don’t even get “equal pay” within a team.
I do hope the women’s game does grow, develop and improve. But it’s a delusion – actually a fraud – to pretend it’s the same as the men’s professional game today. I don’t think the hangers-on pushing that line are actually doing the women’s game any favours.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

He’s right. It’s an entertainment business. Like West End shows or concerts. There’s no case for “equal pay” when the product or service being offered is of a lower quality. You don’t even get “equal pay” within a team.
I do hope the women’s game does grow, develop and improve. But it’s a delusion – actually a fraud – to pretend it’s the same as the men’s professional game today. I don’t think the hangers-on pushing that line are actually doing the women’s game any favours.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Why do they flock to watch Spurs then?

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

You massively overstate the case.
I agree people are more interested in the best (in raw performance terms) and will pay a premium to watch the best. That’s why, for example, the men’s 100 metres final is watched y more people than the women’s. The men’s 100 metres champion is the fastest human, whereas the women’s 100 metres champion is the fastest woman.
But there’s a massive amount of room between the best and “not interested”. There are lots of examples of sports which thrive in that space: The English Championship (our 2nd tier) gets higher attendances some many major 1st tier leagues. Master’s golf is massively popular and lucrative. Champions flyweights still draw crowds even though they couldn’t beat a moderate heavyweight.
And of course, women’s football attendance, viewing etc are all growing, Will it ever be as big as men’s football? No, I doubt it ever will be and some of that is down to the raw performance gap. But there’s plenty of room to grow that interest into and make it to be a viable, lucrative sport for its participants.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Why do they flock to watch Spurs then?

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

Just curious – why so many downvotes here?

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Stoll

“Just curious – why so many downvotes here?”

Democracy means even people who are wrong get to vote 😉

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Stoll

“Just curious – why so many downvotes here?”

Democracy means even people who are wrong get to vote 😉

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

“But it doesn’t mean female athletes are less worthy of respect. ”
It isn’t their lack of ability that makes them less worthy of respect.
It’s their behaviour.

A weak EPL team, playing against City or Liverpool, will do their best and work hard to win, rather than complain about how their opponents are paid more or shown more on TV.

Female footballers, on the other hand:
A. Refuse to compete against men, and demand a separate league to avoid direct competition.
B. Are loudmouthed about how they are “as good” as the men they don’t have the guts to face directly.
C. Get thrashed, not by top men’s football teams, but by under -16 local or school boys or Wrexham FC.
D. Get paid much more than the men versus revenues earned, receive way more TV coverage and publicity relative to performance, while still being obnoxious and ungrateful.
E. After winning a competition against other WOMEN, start shrieking how they should be paid as much as men, and given the same status as a male footballer who proves himself against the best in the world.

Can you imagined if a bunch of men behaved like that, how much “respect” they would receive?

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Maaaaate.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

“A weak EPL team, playing against City or Liverpool, will do their best and work hard to win, rather than complain about how their opponents are paid more or shown more on TV.”
That’s hilarious. PL clubs complain all the time about the advantages of Big Clubs: from favourable refereeing decisions to, in Arsene Wenger’s words, “financial doping” by oligarchs. UEFA even have Financial Fair Play rules to try to even out these disparities, which don’t work but nevertheless.
In response to your other points. For a start, women don’t refuse to play against men. They are not allowed to by the rules. But regardless of that, why would any one expect them to given the known performance advantages of men?
I’m sure there are some examples, because you can find anything on the internet, but I’ve never heard a woman footballer seriously argue that football should be a mixed sex sport, like 3-day eventing. They are as realistic about the performance gap between men and women as anyone (except the sort of fanatics who deny reality) because they see it all the time.
By and large the financial demands of women footballers are not for the same pay as the top men (although of course you can always find odd examples because internet). What they want is to be able to have a viable career and be rewarded for their success. This covers not just remuneration but also things like access to training facilities and so on.
At the moment the average pay for a woman footballer is less than the average pay for a League 2 male footballer. By some measures this is fine, because League 2 crowds are higher. But when it comes to major championships, there is perfectly good argument that women footballers should be paid a lot more, because their labour is filling big stadiums and drawing big TV audiences. 17 million people in the UK watched the Women’s European Cup final. Why shouldn’t the footballers – who are the workers in this scenario – not be rewarded accordingly?
What’s more there is a perfectly good argument for putting more money into women’s football, and therefore wages, as an investment. Those European championships were watched by more than double the previous event in 2017. There is a huge opportunity to grow the women’s game, especially at international level, which will attract broadcaster and sponsor interest who should be all over the possibility of opening up the market for selling things to female participants, which is a largely untapped market.

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Women don’t refuse to play against men. The fact is that in contact sports women would be in physical danger playing against the men. That is why we have separate categories for male and female.
You say you have a daughter? It would not be good to transmit mixed messgaes to her On one hand wantng her to take part in traditionally ‘male activities’ lest she be too ‘girly’ – but then simultaneously communicatiing disrespect for her doing so, and especially when she is not as successful as some men at those activities.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

Well, not arguing for mixed sex competition, doesn’t make any sense.

But it’s ridiculous to pretend that girls are as physically strong and good at football, or even interested, as is being propogated.

My girl has always been much more mentally mature and better at verbal and writing skills than the boys around her.

That doesn’t make me feel inferior as a man. That’s just biology, and girls will be better or worse than boys in different aspects.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

Well, not arguing for mixed sex competition, doesn’t make any sense.

But it’s ridiculous to pretend that girls are as physically strong and good at football, or even interested, as is being propogated.

My girl has always been much more mentally mature and better at verbal and writing skills than the boys around her.

That doesn’t make me feel inferior as a man. That’s just biology, and girls will be better or worse than boys in different aspects.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Maaaaate.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

“A weak EPL team, playing against City or Liverpool, will do their best and work hard to win, rather than complain about how their opponents are paid more or shown more on TV.”
That’s hilarious. PL clubs complain all the time about the advantages of Big Clubs: from favourable refereeing decisions to, in Arsene Wenger’s words, “financial doping” by oligarchs. UEFA even have Financial Fair Play rules to try to even out these disparities, which don’t work but nevertheless.
In response to your other points. For a start, women don’t refuse to play against men. They are not allowed to by the rules. But regardless of that, why would any one expect them to given the known performance advantages of men?
I’m sure there are some examples, because you can find anything on the internet, but I’ve never heard a woman footballer seriously argue that football should be a mixed sex sport, like 3-day eventing. They are as realistic about the performance gap between men and women as anyone (except the sort of fanatics who deny reality) because they see it all the time.
By and large the financial demands of women footballers are not for the same pay as the top men (although of course you can always find odd examples because internet). What they want is to be able to have a viable career and be rewarded for their success. This covers not just remuneration but also things like access to training facilities and so on.
At the moment the average pay for a woman footballer is less than the average pay for a League 2 male footballer. By some measures this is fine, because League 2 crowds are higher. But when it comes to major championships, there is perfectly good argument that women footballers should be paid a lot more, because their labour is filling big stadiums and drawing big TV audiences. 17 million people in the UK watched the Women’s European Cup final. Why shouldn’t the footballers – who are the workers in this scenario – not be rewarded accordingly?
What’s more there is a perfectly good argument for putting more money into women’s football, and therefore wages, as an investment. Those European championships were watched by more than double the previous event in 2017. There is a huge opportunity to grow the women’s game, especially at international level, which will attract broadcaster and sponsor interest who should be all over the possibility of opening up the market for selling things to female participants, which is a largely untapped market.

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Women don’t refuse to play against men. The fact is that in contact sports women would be in physical danger playing against the men. That is why we have separate categories for male and female.
You say you have a daughter? It would not be good to transmit mixed messgaes to her On one hand wantng her to take part in traditionally ‘male activities’ lest she be too ‘girly’ – but then simultaneously communicatiing disrespect for her doing so, and especially when she is not as successful as some men at those activities.

Christopher Thompson
Christopher Thompson
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

“In most sports men have an average performance advantage and therefore at the elite end men will overwhelmingly beat women”.
Not just at the elite end – in 2017, while preparing for two friendlies against Russia the U.S. women’s national team played the FC Dallas U-15 boys academy team and lost 5-2.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago

Yes, I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. Although I would also point out that the FC Dallas U15 also count as elite as they are on an elite pathway.
There is something of a performance multiplier effect to team sports. Football, for example, combines many of the ways which men typically have a performance advantage over women (average height, speed, power, jumping etc) but multiplies it across 11 participants plus subs. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that even the elite women’s team’s lose to male age group teams.
The point however, is that this does not make women’s football unworthy of respect. It is simply a fact that human biology sets a ceiling for women relative to men.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

At the end of the day, respect has to be earned. You can’t just go out there and demand it because you think you somehow deserve it.
I saw this today at the Athletics World Cup. A female UK 100m runner made the worst false start I’ve ever seen. She protested and ran under protest. And was then disqualified. Her behaviour was not directly challenged by the saintly BBC commentators (who polirtely glossed over the fact that her challenge was ridiculous). Later, a top male South African 100m runner marginally false started in a semi-final. He accepted the decision and withdrew immediately. I can respect the second athlete. But not the first. Note: the gender is irrelevant for me here – it’s the behaviour that counts.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

At the end of the day, respect has to be earned. You can’t just go out there and demand it because you think you somehow deserve it.
I saw this today at the Athletics World Cup. A female UK 100m runner made the worst false start I’ve ever seen. She protested and ran under protest. And was then disqualified. Her behaviour was not directly challenged by the saintly BBC commentators (who polirtely glossed over the fact that her challenge was ridiculous). Later, a top male South African 100m runner marginally false started in a semi-final. He accepted the decision and withdrew immediately. I can respect the second athlete. But not the first. Note: the gender is irrelevant for me here – it’s the behaviour that counts.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago

Yes, I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. Although I would also point out that the FC Dallas U15 also count as elite as they are on an elite pathway.
There is something of a performance multiplier effect to team sports. Football, for example, combines many of the ways which men typically have a performance advantage over women (average height, speed, power, jumping etc) but multiplies it across 11 participants plus subs. So it shouldn’t be a surprise that even the elite women’s team’s lose to male age group teams.
The point however, is that this does not make women’s football unworthy of respect. It is simply a fact that human biology sets a ceiling for women relative to men.

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

Quite! Female excellence is female excellence – it doesn’t need to be compared to male excellence. A top female athlete is every bit as committed and hard working as her male counterparts.Of course men are bigger and stronger and the fastest will far out run any woman – but that doesn’t make male sports necessarily any ‘better’.

I have no interest in women’s football, though.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

“A top female athlete is every bit as committed and hard working as her male counterparts.”

Sometimes more so, I would suggest. In the premium sports like football, elite male prospects have pretty much everything in life taken care of for them from their early teens. Few female prospects get that treatment (perhaps some tennis players). They have to juggle jobs, study etc.

And of course women athletes have to deal with periods and if they choose to have children they have to manage those physical and emotional demands. None of which are an issue for men.

Relatively speaking it’s much harder to make a living from sports as a woman. I can’t remember the exact figure but it’s something like 10x as many men in the UK do so. The very least we can do is show the ones that do some respect.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

“A top female athlete is every bit as committed and hard working as her male counterparts.”

Sometimes more so, I would suggest. In the premium sports like football, elite male prospects have pretty much everything in life taken care of for them from their early teens. Few female prospects get that treatment (perhaps some tennis players). They have to juggle jobs, study etc.

And of course women athletes have to deal with periods and if they choose to have children they have to manage those physical and emotional demands. None of which are an issue for men.

Relatively speaking it’s much harder to make a living from sports as a woman. I can’t remember the exact figure but it’s something like 10x as many men in the UK do so. The very least we can do is show the ones that do some respect.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

That men have a massive performance advantage DOES matter. People want to watch the best. People want to pay for the best, and simply are not interested in second best.

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

Just curious – why so many downvotes here?

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

“But it doesn’t mean female athletes are less worthy of respect. ”
It isn’t their lack of ability that makes them less worthy of respect.
It’s their behaviour.

A weak EPL team, playing against City or Liverpool, will do their best and work hard to win, rather than complain about how their opponents are paid more or shown more on TV.

Female footballers, on the other hand:
A. Refuse to compete against men, and demand a separate league to avoid direct competition.
B. Are loudmouthed about how they are “as good” as the men they don’t have the guts to face directly.
C. Get thrashed, not by top men’s football teams, but by under -16 local or school boys or Wrexham FC.
D. Get paid much more than the men versus revenues earned, receive way more TV coverage and publicity relative to performance, while still being obnoxious and ungrateful.
E. After winning a competition against other WOMEN, start shrieking how they should be paid as much as men, and given the same status as a male footballer who proves himself against the best in the world.

Can you imagined if a bunch of men behaved like that, how much “respect” they would receive?

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Christopher Thompson
Christopher Thompson
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

“In most sports men have an average performance advantage and therefore at the elite end men will overwhelmingly beat women”.
Not just at the elite end – in 2017, while preparing for two friendlies against Russia the U.S. women’s national team played the FC Dallas U-15 boys academy team and lost 5-2.

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard M

Quite! Female excellence is female excellence – it doesn’t need to be compared to male excellence. A top female athlete is every bit as committed and hard working as her male counterparts.Of course men are bigger and stronger and the fastest will far out run any woman – but that doesn’t make male sports necessarily any ‘better’.

I have no interest in women’s football, though.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Agreed.

Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Quit pushing the game on the USA.

Gayle Buhler
Gayle Buhler
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I agree with most of what you wrote except for your equating girly being shallow. Sounds like your desired goal is masculinized females. I don’t understand why traditionally female pursuits have to be demonized. Feminism in the 70s was about choice – we had none then. Now it seems like we once again have only one acceptable female choice – to be as much like men as possible so we can dispense with them.

Allan Meats
Allan Meats
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Not watching Australia v Sweden yesterday then?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I feel badly for your daughter that you are “”constantly” pushing her toward things that she may not be interested in, for fear that she may turn out “girly’. I’m sure she will naturally gravitate to what interests her and what she has a natural aptitude for. Constantly pushing a child into an activity is counter productive. Allow her to trust her own instincts and intuition instead of trying to control her. You’ll have a much better relationship.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

“pushing her toward things that she may not be interested in, for fear that she may turn out “girly’. ”
That’s not the idea, and frankly I would love it if she turned out girly – daughters are great!

But the idea is to push her to try things. Just try.
And if she doesn’t like some of those, fine.

She doesn’t like dancing – after a year of dance practice!
On the other hand, she does love dolls – and computer gaming, Lego, maths…..
What I find a bit negative is how many young girls don’t even get any exposure to football, gaming, etc.
How do you know if you like something if you don’t even try it?

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

“pushing her toward things that she may not be interested in, for fear that she may turn out “girly’. ”
That’s not the idea, and frankly I would love it if she turned out girly – daughters are great!

But the idea is to push her to try things. Just try.
And if she doesn’t like some of those, fine.

She doesn’t like dancing – after a year of dance practice!
On the other hand, she does love dolls – and computer gaming, Lego, maths…..
What I find a bit negative is how many young girls don’t even get any exposure to football, gaming, etc.
How do you know if you like something if you don’t even try it?

Deborah Grant
Deborah Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

It isn’t inferior to the men’s game, it’s different – but good. My husband watches it, as he does top women’s golf, because they are so good.

We’re more than half the population, and many of us older women would’ve loved to have played soccer at school – I used to scuff my shoes playing on thr netball court at lunchtime. This global trend isn’t going away. It will increase participation in sport, especially if it’s included in the school curriculum – and heaven knows, lardy ass westerners need it.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’m not sure this article celebrates women’s football as much as you think it does. I’m not even sure it’s particularly “progressive.” And I see no evidence the author supports equal pay for women players, or trans players in women’s football or other sports.

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

How in the name of sanity do you manage to shoehorn immigrants and wokeness into a sneering post about women’s football?
What’s the point of you mate
https://ayenaw.com/2023/08/19/world-cup-final/

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Women’s football is not ‘inferior’ to men’s, it’s different. And ‘standards of women’s sports are abysmal compared to men’ – absolute b0oll0cks! I referee women’s rugby a fair bit at, assorted lower levels, and they are usually techinically superior to the equivalent men’s standard (‘cos they listen to their coaches!) if a tad slower and they cheat less (makes it easier to ref) – and also obviously enjoy it more than the boys.

Watch top international women’s rugby and tell me it ain’t physical!

BTW I agree that pay should be linked to income generated. Professional sport is not a game, it’s paid-for entertainment.

Last edited 1 year ago by Tony Price
Sue Ward
Sue Ward
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Interesting conflation of girly and shallow. Is it shallow to be able to cook? Is coding more worthy than being able to draw or sew? Why must girls be forced into traditionally male sports at the expense of say netball, ballet, horse riding? If your daughter chooses to be girly it doesn’t mean she’s shallow.

Last edited 1 year ago by Sue Ward
Keith Raymond
Keith Raymond
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I like the women’s game because there’s more time playing and less time thrashing on the pitch looking for penalties.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Ignore the slobbering sentimentalists Iker – and no sport provokes slobbering sentimentaliity as effectively as “the beautiful game” (yuk!). Your comment holds true.
The current mania is more about the loud clanking feminist propaganda machine than the game itself. With every pundit and his progressive wife straining to display their support for those sentimentally dubbed “Lionesses”, you just know where the next contest will be fought: in the arena of equity in financial rewards, equity in celebrity status, equity in media exposure, equity in everything they can get away with.
Yet, if in five to ten years, girls fail to show the widespread, patriarchy-challenging, enthusiasm for soccer that feminists expect of them then social conditioning will be blamed (of course).

Last edited 1 year ago by N Satori
Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

“It’s all about how women’s football must be treated at par with men, and how it’s unacceptable that football roughly equivalent to the 3rd tier division 1 or worse doesn’t get the same audiences and pay as Messi and co.”

There’s a difference between equal performance and equal respect.

In most sports men have an average performance advantage and therefore at the elite end men will overwhelmingly beat women. This is evident in everything from tennis club pyramids to park run times to Olympic finals. But it doesn’t mean female athletes are less worthy of respect. An exceptional female athlete is an exceptional athlete.

As for earning as much as Messi, I’ve never seen anyone suggest that. If I did I wouldn’t agree with it. Messi’s salary is driven by his value within the men’s football economy which is still much bigger than women’s.

What I do hope is that the popularity and financial value of women’s football (and other sports) continues to grow and as a result the players in turn benefit from increased financial rewards.

If, for the sake of argument, in 10 years time women’s football is as popular and financially lucrative as men’s, then I would see no problem in the best female players being paid “as much as Messi”.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Agreed.

Mark M Breza
Mark M Breza
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Quit pushing the game on the USA.

Gayle Buhler
Gayle Buhler
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I agree with most of what you wrote except for your equating girly being shallow. Sounds like your desired goal is masculinized females. I don’t understand why traditionally female pursuits have to be demonized. Feminism in the 70s was about choice – we had none then. Now it seems like we once again have only one acceptable female choice – to be as much like men as possible so we can dispense with them.

Allan Meats
Allan Meats
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Not watching Australia v Sweden yesterday then?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I feel badly for your daughter that you are “”constantly” pushing her toward things that she may not be interested in, for fear that she may turn out “girly’. I’m sure she will naturally gravitate to what interests her and what she has a natural aptitude for. Constantly pushing a child into an activity is counter productive. Allow her to trust her own instincts and intuition instead of trying to control her. You’ll have a much better relationship.

Deborah Grant
Deborah Grant
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

It isn’t inferior to the men’s game, it’s different – but good. My husband watches it, as he does top women’s golf, because they are so good.

We’re more than half the population, and many of us older women would’ve loved to have played soccer at school – I used to scuff my shoes playing on thr netball court at lunchtime. This global trend isn’t going away. It will increase participation in sport, especially if it’s included in the school curriculum – and heaven knows, lardy ass westerners need it.

harry storm
harry storm
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I’m not sure this article celebrates women’s football as much as you think it does. I’m not even sure it’s particularly “progressive.” And I see no evidence the author supports equal pay for women players, or trans players in women’s football or other sports.

Last edited 1 year ago by harry storm
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

The basic premise of this piece is rather stretched and nonsensical. What surprises me though is that commenters here are taken aback by this – as it should be very obvious that women’s football, how it’s viewed and it’s media coverage, has been hijacked by “progressives” and politicised. Of course it has to be about “inclusion”, the “wider significance”, how it’s good that England fans are watching women’s football even though it’s inferior compared to men, simply out of pride for nation – while simultaneously deriding that concept of national pride and joy because it’s icky and Brexitey.

Now, I have a daughter who I constantly push towards stuff like gaming, coding, tech, football – not to “compete” against boys but to ensure she doesn’t grow up all girly and shallow.
But it’s very evident when it comes to football or cricket, she and other girls I know have very little interest (in contrast to boys her own age).

And it’s also fairly obvious that the standards of women’s sports are abysmal compared to men. Biology, and bodies tuned to ease childbirth rather than throwing stuff.

But, if you follow the coverage, and it’s quite overwhelming media coverage (which should be a clue), the message is not “there is some tournament on, watch it if interested, England winning hurrah”. It’s all about how women’s football must be treated at par with men, and how it’s unacceptable that football roughly equivalent to the 3rd tier division 1 or worse doesn’t get the same audiences and pay as Messi and co.

The ones pushing that stuff are exactly – almost precisely – the same idiots who think it’s awful that we don’t just let boatloads of immigrants jump over to Western countries (while they themselves stay in mostly white upper class gated suburbs), believe in multiculturalism or think Brexiteers are the spawn of Satan.

Hence articles like this.

And whether it’s “very good news for women’s football” is questionable, because this same lot of people would also support trans – of course they would.
So we might hilariously end up with women’s footballers being artificially brought closer to par with men pay wise – while simultaneously being overrun with 3rd rate men pretending to be women.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

It’s a game. Geez. If your team does well and it’s exciting, interest in the sport grows, and that’s always good. The nation feels a sweet sense of pride momentarily, which is good as well. But that’s about it, outside of some narrow exceptions.

And what’s with this? “ At the time, it was claimed that Freeman’s success heralded a new, more inclusive Australia, yet just a year later the Australian government turned away the Tampa, a Norwegian freighter laden with asylum seekers it had rescued from the seas north of Christmas Island.”

Another ideological spin on the meaning of inclusivity. And why on god’s green earth would an athletic endeavor have any impact on political policy?

Richard Gasson
Richard Gasson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

You took the words out of my mouth

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Sport has always had some cultural, and thus political, implications and impact on perceptions, going all the way back to c700BC and the first Olympics. Just a few examples – the impact of Berlin 34 and Jesse Owens; Muhammad Ali in the 60s, 70s; the use of sport to demonstrate national superiority whether Russia, East Germany, China now, or the USA; the Generals use of 78 Argentinian WC to strengthen their hold on power; ‘War minus the shooting’ as Orwell said, albeit the context in 49 when he wrote that was somewhat different.
The gradual move to equality in sport for Women, with worldwide coverage including to parts of the world where repression of women much worse, has a much bigger impact than many men instinctively grasp.
There are of course hundreds more such examples.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Richard Gasson
Richard Gasson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

You took the words out of my mouth

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Sport has always had some cultural, and thus political, implications and impact on perceptions, going all the way back to c700BC and the first Olympics. Just a few examples – the impact of Berlin 34 and Jesse Owens; Muhammad Ali in the 60s, 70s; the use of sport to demonstrate national superiority whether Russia, East Germany, China now, or the USA; the Generals use of 78 Argentinian WC to strengthen their hold on power; ‘War minus the shooting’ as Orwell said, albeit the context in 49 when he wrote that was somewhat different.
The gradual move to equality in sport for Women, with worldwide coverage including to parts of the world where repression of women much worse, has a much bigger impact than many men instinctively grasp.
There are of course hundreds more such examples.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

It’s a game. Geez. If your team does well and it’s exciting, interest in the sport grows, and that’s always good. The nation feels a sweet sense of pride momentarily, which is good as well. But that’s about it, outside of some narrow exceptions.

And what’s with this? “ At the time, it was claimed that Freeman’s success heralded a new, more inclusive Australia, yet just a year later the Australian government turned away the Tampa, a Norwegian freighter laden with asylum seekers it had rescued from the seas north of Christmas Island.”

Another ideological spin on the meaning of inclusivity. And why on god’s green earth would an athletic endeavor have any impact on political policy?

Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
1 year ago

…so Australians en masse paying attention to one of their own in the Olympics, didn’t transpond into compassion for a boatload of would be illegal migrants? Huh? Only a deeply racist mind could connive that connection.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Bernard Hill

Quite.
One action was about symbolically resetting the treatment of indigenous Australian people.
The other was about upholding the lawfully and democratically determined immigration policy of Australia.
The worst part of an otherwise generally good article. And totally unnecessary.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter B
Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Bernard Hill

Quite.
One action was about symbolically resetting the treatment of indigenous Australian people.
The other was about upholding the lawfully and democratically determined immigration policy of Australia.
The worst part of an otherwise generally good article. And totally unnecessary.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter B
Bernard Hill
Bernard Hill
1 year ago

…so Australians en masse paying attention to one of their own in the Olympics, didn’t transpond into compassion for a boatload of would be illegal migrants? Huh? Only a deeply racist mind could connive that connection.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

I watched the last women’s World Cup avidly, because my teenage daughter was then into football. It was quite interesting, and at times I really enjoyed what the women had brought to the game: more courtesy, lower levels of fouling and play-acting, some nice set-pieces and accurate square passing out to the wing.
Then, when it was all over, I watched a few men’s games again (I’ve never been a consistent fan of the game) and found them to be far more exciting and entertaining, with some real flashes of something close to genius.
For me, the most interesting feature of this whole tournament is how desperate the BBC are to portray the women’s game as the equal of the men’s game. It’s verged on gaslighting at times. The desire to spin a narrative about female equality is far more evident than any attempt to just report on the game and let people make up their own minds.

Jonathan N
Jonathan N
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

The England women would be beaten by an U14 boys team from any of the Premiership academies. But its still an entertaining watch, and I can get behind them for the Final. Come on England!!

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

From a referee’s perspective let me tell you that women are NOT more courteous, nor do they ‘play nicer’.

Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

We must never forget that the champion US women’s team was soundly beaten by a team of 15 yr old Texan males, soon after they won it all last time.

It’s nice that most nations are now encouraging women’s soccer (the original English name of the sport), but comparing them to the brilliance of the world-class men’s teams is a waste of time.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Pearse

An individual game could be misleading. The Spanish women footballers were trounced 4 goals to nil by the Japanese, yet the English ladies couldn’t hit the net once against them.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Pearse

An individual game could be misleading. The Spanish women footballers were trounced 4 goals to nil by the Japanese, yet the English ladies couldn’t hit the net once against them.

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Some of the roots of transgender ideology lie in the denial of any inherent difference between the sexes. The problem is that for women to be valued they are held to male standards of performance and behaviour – and female qualities are utterly devalued – unless they are performed by men who adopt female personas and identities ( and the roots of that lie in the sexualisation of women).
Equality should not have to mean ‘sameness’ – but about accommodating differences too.

Jonathan N
Jonathan N
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

The England women would be beaten by an U14 boys team from any of the Premiership academies. But its still an entertaining watch, and I can get behind them for the Final. Come on England!!

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

From a referee’s perspective let me tell you that women are NOT more courteous, nor do they ‘play nicer’.

Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

We must never forget that the champion US women’s team was soundly beaten by a team of 15 yr old Texan males, soon after they won it all last time.

It’s nice that most nations are now encouraging women’s soccer (the original English name of the sport), but comparing them to the brilliance of the world-class men’s teams is a waste of time.

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Neale

Some of the roots of transgender ideology lie in the denial of any inherent difference between the sexes. The problem is that for women to be valued they are held to male standards of performance and behaviour – and female qualities are utterly devalued – unless they are performed by men who adopt female personas and identities ( and the roots of that lie in the sexualisation of women).
Equality should not have to mean ‘sameness’ – but about accommodating differences too.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

I watched the last women’s World Cup avidly, because my teenage daughter was then into football. It was quite interesting, and at times I really enjoyed what the women had brought to the game: more courtesy, lower levels of fouling and play-acting, some nice set-pieces and accurate square passing out to the wing.
Then, when it was all over, I watched a few men’s games again (I’ve never been a consistent fan of the game) and found them to be far more exciting and entertaining, with some real flashes of something close to genius.
For me, the most interesting feature of this whole tournament is how desperate the BBC are to portray the women’s game as the equal of the men’s game. It’s verged on gaslighting at times. The desire to spin a narrative about female equality is far more evident than any attempt to just report on the game and let people make up their own minds.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

”Grandiose claims about deeper meaning aren’t always the answer”. I’m struggling to understand what the question might be ?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

”Grandiose claims about deeper meaning aren’t always the answer”. I’m struggling to understand what the question might be ?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

The author writes for the Guardian and Sports Illustrated, so I won’t be surprised if his next UnHerd article will be about how huge fat bikini models will end global warming and the patriarchy.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago

The author writes for the Guardian and Sports Illustrated, so I won’t be surprised if his next UnHerd article will be about how huge fat bikini models will end global warming and the patriarchy.

George Wells
George Wells
1 year ago

Quite. Sack this writer with his miserable blather.
Sport, training, effort, achievement, role models for our girls – there are so many positive things to write about here.
Accusations of racism and negative energy need to be edited out so we can come to UnHerd to avoid this crap.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  George Wells

Really, you want to edit this stuff out? I don’t want an echo chamber. That’s not helpful to anyone.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Agreed. Just because he might write for the Graun doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Agreed. Just because he might write for the Graun doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  George Wells

Really, you want to edit this stuff out? I don’t want an echo chamber. That’s not helpful to anyone.

George Wells
George Wells
1 year ago

Quite. Sack this writer with his miserable blather.
Sport, training, effort, achievement, role models for our girls – there are so many positive things to write about here.
Accusations of racism and negative energy need to be edited out so we can come to UnHerd to avoid this crap.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago

Again, it would be easy to be cynical but the context is important.

Has this awful author ever done a piece that is not cynical?
There’s no doubt that women’s football has launched the sport at grassroots, just go to the park and you’ll see girls playing organised matches every weekend, which was completely unheard of ten years ago.
The passion and energy is definitely present, let’s celebrate it.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

I read some foolish remarks in this article, especially about the boat filled with would be migrants to Australia, but I didn’t detect cynicism, wokishness yes! His main theme was that the link between sports success and wider culture exists but is subtle – and we shouldn’t expect too much. Pretty banal I suppose, because I’d say that was fairly obvious.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

The problem I see is that while you have some girls interested in organised matches and playing regularly (though still far fewer than men), interest beyond that group falls off dramatically among girls. Whereas among men, even those who aren’t actively playing, there is a lot of interest in the game.

What this means is that the young boys I know, after playing or watching football, discuss among themselves excitedly next day in school.

Whereas my daughter, after being dragged unwillingly to a football game to begin with, has zero interaction with the other girls in her school. I know, I asked her after every game that I took her.

Pity really, as it would be great for her to play and enjoy the sport (and not just for my selfish reasons!)

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I find that sport for girls is far better and stronger in single sex/girl only schools; and netball and hockey are just as worthwhile as football – in fact I’d much prefer it should we celebrate women’s sport beyond just football. I watched and enjoyed the netball world cup last week – I can’t say the same for women’s football.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

“I’d much prefer it should we celebrate women’s sport beyond just football.”

I understand the sentiment but football is the big win. Its global profile and the money to be made, make it the most obvious route to winning over traditional sports fans, who are overwhelmingly male, and attracting a new generation of women to sport.

The women’s road race at the Worlds last week was a brilliant race. But even with it being in the UK and on the red button, I’d be amazed if it was watched by a 10th of the number who watched the match today.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago
Reply to  Jane Anderson

“I’d much prefer it should we celebrate women’s sport beyond just football.”

I understand the sentiment but football is the big win. Its global profile and the money to be made, make it the most obvious route to winning over traditional sports fans, who are overwhelmingly male, and attracting a new generation of women to sport.

The women’s road race at the Worlds last week was a brilliant race. But even with it being in the UK and on the red button, I’d be amazed if it was watched by a 10th of the number who watched the match today.

Jane Anderson
Jane Anderson
1 year ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I find that sport for girls is far better and stronger in single sex/girl only schools; and netball and hockey are just as worthwhile as football – in fact I’d much prefer it should we celebrate women’s sport beyond just football. I watched and enjoyed the netball world cup last week – I can’t say the same for women’s football.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Well, “Bend It Like Beckham” is 21 years old, so not completely unheard of.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

I read some foolish remarks in this article, especially about the boat filled with would be migrants to Australia, but I didn’t detect cynicism, wokishness yes! His main theme was that the link between sports success and wider culture exists but is subtle – and we shouldn’t expect too much. Pretty banal I suppose, because I’d say that was fairly obvious.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

The problem I see is that while you have some girls interested in organised matches and playing regularly (though still far fewer than men), interest beyond that group falls off dramatically among girls. Whereas among men, even those who aren’t actively playing, there is a lot of interest in the game.

What this means is that the young boys I know, after playing or watching football, discuss among themselves excitedly next day in school.

Whereas my daughter, after being dragged unwillingly to a football game to begin with, has zero interaction with the other girls in her school. I know, I asked her after every game that I took her.

Pity really, as it would be great for her to play and enjoy the sport (and not just for my selfish reasons!)

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Well, “Bend It Like Beckham” is 21 years old, so not completely unheard of.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago

Again, it would be easy to be cynical but the context is important.

Has this awful author ever done a piece that is not cynical?
There’s no doubt that women’s football has launched the sport at grassroots, just go to the park and you’ll see girls playing organised matches every weekend, which was completely unheard of ten years ago.
The passion and energy is definitely present, let’s celebrate it.

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago

What.. Australia being “less inclusive” by turning away illegal immigrants?
Like a bank being ‘less generous’ by keeping bank robbers at bay.
What utter nonsense!

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago

What.. Australia being “less inclusive” by turning away illegal immigrants?
Like a bank being ‘less generous’ by keeping bank robbers at bay.
What utter nonsense!

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
1 year ago

I’ve tried to read this article three times now. Can someone tell me what on earth he is on about?

Last edited 1 year ago by Paul MacDonnell
Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago

I’ve tried to be an article on occasion, but find it deeply unsatisfying.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago

You want others to suffer on your behalf? I got part-way through and decided that I could guess the ending.

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago

I’ve tried to be an article on occasion, but find it deeply unsatisfying.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago

You want others to suffer on your behalf? I got part-way through and decided that I could guess the ending.

Paul MacDonnell
Paul MacDonnell
1 year ago

I’ve tried to read this article three times now. Can someone tell me what on earth he is on about?

Last edited 1 year ago by Paul MacDonnell
Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago

The point of the Women’s World Cup is that the best women footballers in the world should compete, enjoy and celebrate their ability at the game of football and receive respect for being exceptional sportswomen.

You are of course free to infer whatever wider meaning you wish from observing them play football. But that doesn’t make it true.

Richard M
Richard M
1 year ago

The point of the Women’s World Cup is that the best women footballers in the world should compete, enjoy and celebrate their ability at the game of football and receive respect for being exceptional sportswomen.

You are of course free to infer whatever wider meaning you wish from observing them play football. But that doesn’t make it true.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

Lib Dem leader Ed Davey had posted a staggeringly wooden shot of himself celebrating victory in a pub

Yes. Ye gods! I can only assume that there is a saboteur in his publicity team, or that he sees the world very differently from the rest of us. With his attacks on the Tory “wall” with rubbers mallets and cardboard cannons, it’s like watching some unfortunate “care in the community” type struggle with social skills training.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
1 year ago

Lib Dem leader Ed Davey had posted a staggeringly wooden shot of himself celebrating victory in a pub

Yes. Ye gods! I can only assume that there is a saboteur in his publicity team, or that he sees the world very differently from the rest of us. With his attacks on the Tory “wall” with rubbers mallets and cardboard cannons, it’s like watching some unfortunate “care in the community” type struggle with social skills training.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago

Why are so many people suddenly trying so very hard to to show enthusiasm for women’s football? Perhaps the suspiciously exaggerated excitement stems from a need to show support for the latest feminist project. Lack of fervor could imply misogyny (and we can’t have that).
Pundits have been suggesting that a victory in this tournament will be equivalent to England’s 1966 World Cup victory. Are they just trying too hard or have they really lost all sense of proportion?

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago

Why are so many people suddenly trying so very hard to to show enthusiasm for women’s football? Perhaps the suspiciously exaggerated excitement stems from a need to show support for the latest feminist project. Lack of fervor could imply misogyny (and we can’t have that).
Pundits have been suggesting that a victory in this tournament will be equivalent to England’s 1966 World Cup victory. Are they just trying too hard or have they really lost all sense of proportion?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Off course had the Classical World survived, this tournament and all others would have been performed “Gymnos’- stark naked, as were for example the Ancient Olympic Games.
This would certainly improve television ratings, and also put an immediate end to all this TRANS nonsense.
Sadly the triumph of two Semitic monotheistic cults known respectively as Christianity and Islam put a stop to all that!

Sic Gloria Transit Mundi.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Off course had the Classical World survived, this tournament and all others would have been performed “Gymnos’- stark naked, as were for example the Ancient Olympic Games.
This would certainly improve television ratings, and also put an immediate end to all this TRANS nonsense.
Sadly the triumph of two Semitic monotheistic cults known respectively as Christianity and Islam put a stop to all that!

Sic Gloria Transit Mundi.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

Growing up in Australia, I’d say a ferocious interest in sport is a marker of a country’s insignificance in more important fields of endeavour ; arts, sciences, manufacture, war.

So Britain’s renewed interest in this field is not a good omen, to tell the truth.

“. . . and those who can’t teach, teach phys-ed” as they say.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

Growing up in Australia, I’d say a ferocious interest in sport is a marker of a country’s insignificance in more important fields of endeavour ; arts, sciences, manufacture, war.

So Britain’s renewed interest in this field is not a good omen, to tell the truth.

“. . . and those who can’t teach, teach phys-ed” as they say.

Last edited 1 year ago by Dumetrius
j watson
j watson
1 year ago

I think the Author a bit blind to how all this might be looking to a 10 year Girl, and as compared to the equivalent when my generation was that age, or even younger – nothing anywhere near similar for them.
This stuff counts.
What a bunch of middle age men think probably not going to make much difference to the coming future.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I think you might find it’s middle aged men who get up early in the morning to watch women’s football or take their daughters to games!

Andrew R
Andrew R
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

According to the ECB, the majority of people who went to watch the recent women’s Ashes matches were men, middle age men and older who will no doubt encourage their children (sons and daughters) to partake in the sport.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew R

Don’t let reality break his narrative! #bekind

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew R

Don’t let reality break his narrative! #bekind

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Unless, of course, they’re Soros or Gates? (ESG codswallop and vaccines for babies will certainly affect the future.)

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

I think you might find it’s middle aged men who get up early in the morning to watch women’s football or take their daughters to games!

Andrew R
Andrew R
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

According to the ECB, the majority of people who went to watch the recent women’s Ashes matches were men, middle age men and older who will no doubt encourage their children (sons and daughters) to partake in the sport.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Unless, of course, they’re Soros or Gates? (ESG codswallop and vaccines for babies will certainly affect the future.)

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

I think the Author a bit blind to how all this might be looking to a 10 year Girl, and as compared to the equivalent when my generation was that age, or even younger – nothing anywhere near similar for them.
This stuff counts.
What a bunch of middle age men think probably not going to make much difference to the coming future.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

GLADIATRIX!

Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
1 year ago

What is the plural? If you say Gladiatrixes, then I prefer GLADIATOR.

Andrew Stuart
Andrew Stuart
1 year ago

Takes two to Gladiate ; )

Sue Sims
Sue Sims
1 year ago

Gladiatrices.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Sims

Correct.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Sue Sims

Correct.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Incidentally there is evidence for one of these ‘Gorgons’ actually fighting in the arena in Londinium.

The interesting question is did they fight only other women or men as well?
Sadly we don’t yet have any ‘sources’ to decide this issue.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Andrew Stuart
Andrew Stuart
1 year ago

Takes two to Gladiate ; )

Sue Sims
Sue Sims
1 year ago

Gladiatrices.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Incidentally there is evidence for one of these ‘Gorgons’ actually fighting in the arena in Londinium.

The interesting question is did they fight only other women or men as well?
Sadly we don’t yet have any ‘sources’ to decide this issue.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
1 year ago

What is the plural? If you say Gladiatrixes, then I prefer GLADIATOR.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

GLADIATRIX!

Graeme Laws
Graeme Laws
1 year ago

I really do not understand why this piece was written, let alone published. We like sport. We like British success, even in sports we can’t play and never normally watch. We like to have something to cheer about. Humans the world over are in this respect, as in others, more or less the same. Does success inspire others to get into whatever the game was that we won? The evidence is doubtful. I have never watched women playing football. I don’t watch men either. If they were playing in the back garden I’d draw the curtains. But I’ll be cheering the women on in the morning. Because they’re ours. Simples.

Graeme Laws
Graeme Laws
1 year ago

I really do not understand why this piece was written, let alone published. We like sport. We like British success, even in sports we can’t play and never normally watch. We like to have something to cheer about. Humans the world over are in this respect, as in others, more or less the same. Does success inspire others to get into whatever the game was that we won? The evidence is doubtful. I have never watched women playing football. I don’t watch men either. If they were playing in the back garden I’d draw the curtains. But I’ll be cheering the women on in the morning. Because they’re ours. Simples.

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago

Sadly, sport today means money and that means US TV networks broadcasting events.
And in America, women’s football has to compete with women’s basketball for attention.
So women’s football will always be a minority sport where the players don’t get the money they perhaps should.
Of course, it is still a good thing that more girls are taking up football – a sport which helps improve fitness.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Let’s get real and stop being so damn woke about this: men’s sport is much tougher, and better on any conceivable metric.

Women “deserve” the same pay, yet they play far less and far fewer people are interested. There has never been a nail biting 5 set tennis match between two women at any major tournament.

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Women’s tennis gets equal pay because the Grand Slam tournaments are held at the same time and venue as the men’s Grand Slam tournaments, and so contribute to the vast profits made by the organisers.
A lesson for supporters of women’s football there!

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Just because you play in the same venue, it doesn’t mean that you contributed equally to the profits so you deserve the same money.
For a start, you need at least 3 women matches against 2 men matches to fill the broadcasting schedule.
Women got equal pay because of relentless campaign of blackmail against GS organisers.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Women’s tennis is more enjoyable to watch simply because they have less power than men. There are more rallys.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Agreed – I much prefer women’s tennis, and so does my father who is a massive tennis fan. So much more graceful and watchable than the tedious baseline hammering that forms much of men’s tennis matches. I do miss Roger Federer – a rare male player who was actually graceful and interesting to watch on court.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

Most of the ladies are baseline hammer specialists who are rarely tempted near the net and never play a slice volley.
They’re good at what they do, but I miss serve and volley tennis.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

Most of the ladies are baseline hammer specialists who are rarely tempted near the net and never play a slice volley.
They’re good at what they do, but I miss serve and volley tennis.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Agreed – I much prefer women’s tennis, and so does my father who is a massive tennis fan. So much more graceful and watchable than the tedious baseline hammering that forms much of men’s tennis matches. I do miss Roger Federer – a rare male player who was actually graceful and interesting to watch on court.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Hardly equal pay when ‘earned’ in less than half the time?

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Just because you play in the same venue, it doesn’t mean that you contributed equally to the profits so you deserve the same money.
For a start, you need at least 3 women matches against 2 men matches to fill the broadcasting schedule.
Women got equal pay because of relentless campaign of blackmail against GS organisers.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Women’s tennis is more enjoyable to watch simply because they have less power than men. There are more rallys.

John Dee
John Dee
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Hardly equal pay when ‘earned’ in less than half the time?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

“There has never been a nail biting 5 set tennis match between two women at any major tournament.”

Amen to that.

Russell Hamilton
Russell Hamilton
1 year ago

Could this be because women didn’t play 5 sets, but three?

Those of us old enough to remember could point to the 1970 Wimbledon women’s final when our Margaret Court prevailed over Billie Jean King 14-12, 11-9. If you think that wasn’t nail-biting!!

Last edited 1 year ago by Russell Hamilton
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Aha! The days of “the chocolate drop darling!”
Yes those were the days.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Aha! The days of “the chocolate drop darling!”
Yes those were the days.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Russell Hamilton
Russell Hamilton
1 year ago

Could this be because women didn’t play 5 sets, but three?

Those of us old enough to remember could point to the 1970 Wimbledon women’s final when our Margaret Court prevailed over Billie Jean King 14-12, 11-9. If you think that wasn’t nail-biting!!

Last edited 1 year ago by Russell Hamilton
Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Men’s sport may be ‘tougher’, but it ain’t necessarily more physical – you obviously haven’t watched much women’s sport. And “better”? – that is a very subjective opinion indeed and not subject to ‘metrics’.

Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Men’s sport is, in almost every case, ‘better’ in the sense that they would beat the women’s team. BUT professional sport is all about entertainment and so skill etc can be irrelevant. I used to watch tennis and there was a time when I found women’s tennis more enjoyable than men’s and so it was, for me, better (entertainment).
So pay, media coverage etc should purely reflect how much spectators enjoy it, are willing to pay and where that meets players’ demands.

Suzanne C.
Suzanne C.
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

Many people prefer women’s tennis because they actually return the ball, it isn’t all power serves. Women tennis players are often more high profile, get more advertising contracts, and deservedly make more money than the men. It is the only sport in which they pull their own weight financially.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

There has however been quite a bit of completely unnecessary ‘grunting’ in recent years, mainly but not exclusively by women.
This rather shatters the serenity of the game and must cease.
Then there is the current controversy about what coloured knickers to wear. Simple, do as the Cricketers do and wear trousers.

Terry M
Terry M
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

Not ice skating?

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

You’ll find that the men’s tennis game brings in far more money than the women’s game. Try dealing with facts rather than wishfuls.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

They don’t make more money than top male players.
No one minds if one slam wonder Raducanu made 20 million from contracts etc.
What many people object to is subsidising women game in GS from money generated by men.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

If you look at market place for resale of Wimbledon tickets women final is worth between price of 4th round and QF of men.
Or at least it was before Wimbledon decided to have mixed days this year at QF and SF stage.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

There has however been quite a bit of completely unnecessary ‘grunting’ in recent years, mainly but not exclusively by women.
This rather shatters the serenity of the game and must cease.
Then there is the current controversy about what coloured knickers to wear. Simple, do as the Cricketers do and wear trousers.

Terry M
Terry M
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

Not ice skating?

Dominic S
Dominic S
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

You’ll find that the men’s tennis game brings in far more money than the women’s game. Try dealing with facts rather than wishfuls.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

They don’t make more money than top male players.
No one minds if one slam wonder Raducanu made 20 million from contracts etc.
What many people object to is subsidising women game in GS from money generated by men.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Suzanne C.

If you look at market place for resale of Wimbledon tickets women final is worth between price of 4th round and QF of men.
Or at least it was before Wimbledon decided to have mixed days this year at QF and SF stage.

Suzanne C.
Suzanne C.
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

Many people prefer women’s tennis because they actually return the ball, it isn’t all power serves. Women tennis players are often more high profile, get more advertising contracts, and deservedly make more money than the men. It is the only sport in which they pull their own weight financially.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

You really need to be woke or blind not to see discrepancy in skills between top women players in tennis or football and man.
Women nr1 Swiatek can not even execute backhand volley trying to do it with 2 hands.

Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Men’s sport is, in almost every case, ‘better’ in the sense that they would beat the women’s team. BUT professional sport is all about entertainment and so skill etc can be irrelevant. I used to watch tennis and there was a time when I found women’s tennis more enjoyable than men’s and so it was, for me, better (entertainment).
So pay, media coverage etc should purely reflect how much spectators enjoy it, are willing to pay and where that meets players’ demands.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Price

You really need to be woke or blind not to see discrepancy in skills between top women players in tennis or football and man.
Women nr1 Swiatek can not even execute backhand volley trying to do it with 2 hands.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Female tennis players have been prepared to play 5 sets at grand slams for a long time. Its the tournament organisers that will not allow it, as they say it would make the schedule impossible. Someone commenting on another publication suggested all grand slam matches being 3 sets until quarter final stage, then moving to 5 sets for both men and women. This seemed to me an eminently sensible solution to the schedule issues, whilst making the sport more equitable. Of course, because it is eminently sensible, there is zero chance of this ever happening. Also, do not forget that men only play 3 sets at the vast majority of tournaments, its only the four slams and one or two other tournaments where men play 5 sets.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

Well said.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

The question is: are the punters who buy the tickets and cable TV subscriptions able to watch the 5 set women’s game ? I guess if there really were strong demand for this, it would happen.
If you want to get paid for professional sport, you have to accept that you’re in the entertainment business and at the whim of the audience. Fairness and equity don’t come into it. We chose to bury amateur sport 30-40 years ago and have to live with the consequences.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

Well said.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Nikki Hayes

The question is: are the punters who buy the tickets and cable TV subscriptions able to watch the 5 set women’s game ? I guess if there really were strong demand for this, it would happen.
If you want to get paid for professional sport, you have to accept that you’re in the entertainment business and at the whim of the audience. Fairness and equity don’t come into it. We chose to bury amateur sport 30-40 years ago and have to live with the consequences.

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Women’s tennis gets equal pay because the Grand Slam tournaments are held at the same time and venue as the men’s Grand Slam tournaments, and so contribute to the vast profits made by the organisers.
A lesson for supporters of women’s football there!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

“There has never been a nail biting 5 set tennis match between two women at any major tournament.”

Amen to that.

Tony Price
Tony Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Men’s sport may be ‘tougher’, but it ain’t necessarily more physical – you obviously haven’t watched much women’s sport. And “better”? – that is a very subjective opinion indeed and not subject to ‘metrics’.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Female tennis players have been prepared to play 5 sets at grand slams for a long time. Its the tournament organisers that will not allow it, as they say it would make the schedule impossible. Someone commenting on another publication suggested all grand slam matches being 3 sets until quarter final stage, then moving to 5 sets for both men and women. This seemed to me an eminently sensible solution to the schedule issues, whilst making the sport more equitable. Of course, because it is eminently sensible, there is zero chance of this ever happening. Also, do not forget that men only play 3 sets at the vast majority of tournaments, its only the four slams and one or two other tournaments where men play 5 sets.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

A. Boosting pay for the handful of tip level women footballers
B. Getting ordinary girls to play and watch football.

These are two different things and it’s irritating that they are so often muddled
The link provided about increasing WSL attendances in the article , for instance, actually points to a Sport England page that’s focused on getting women to be more active through sports. Which is great (and same holds true for men, too).

And as for pay,
“women’s football has to compete with women’s basketball”
And both sports are heavily subsidised or paid proportionally significantly higher as a % of income, compared to their male equivalent!

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

No it doesn’t because few here watch either. Women’s beach volley ball, on the other hand . . .

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Particular when played on Horse Guards Parade.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Particular when played on Horse Guards Parade.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Let’s get real and stop being so damn woke about this: men’s sport is much tougher, and better on any conceivable metric.

Women “deserve” the same pay, yet they play far less and far fewer people are interested. There has never been a nail biting 5 set tennis match between two women at any major tournament.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

A. Boosting pay for the handful of tip level women footballers
B. Getting ordinary girls to play and watch football.

These are two different things and it’s irritating that they are so often muddled
The link provided about increasing WSL attendances in the article , for instance, actually points to a Sport England page that’s focused on getting women to be more active through sports. Which is great (and same holds true for men, too).

And as for pay,
“women’s football has to compete with women’s basketball”
And both sports are heavily subsidised or paid proportionally significantly higher as a % of income, compared to their male equivalent!

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

No it doesn’t because few here watch either. Women’s beach volley ball, on the other hand . . .

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago

Sadly, sport today means money and that means US TV networks broadcasting events.
And in America, women’s football has to compete with women’s basketball for attention.
So women’s football will always be a minority sport where the players don’t get the money they perhaps should.
Of course, it is still a good thing that more girls are taking up football – a sport which helps improve fitness.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Footy aside, which on a technical level improves visibly with each passing women’s tournament, it feels somewhat like the revenge of the lesbian community on the cultural zeitgeist.
Or at least the rather novel notion of the working-class girl who does more than pass her hours on social media.
Represented ironically by Meghan Rapinoe, the US is sadly the outlier here while kneeling aside, the English women’s team seems to be stepping out of the 51st State shadow for once. On verra…

Terry M
Terry M
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Glad to see our gals lose after their disgraceful behavior, led by Ms Rapinoe, who, ironically, is all for trans ‘women’ competing now that she has made her million$.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Terry M

What “disgraceful behaviour” is that?
I must admit I have NOT being paying much attention to all this, as this was a Test year after all.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago

Ah yes, Test year.
The only sport British invented that is only played by former slaves of Empire.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Thus speaks the man from The Royal Black Preceptory! And not only grammatically* incorrect but factually, as one might expect.

(*Britain not British.-QED?)

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Steady on. The Aussies may have been convicts, but I don’t think they were ever slaves.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Thus speaks the man from The Royal Black Preceptory! And not only grammatically* incorrect but factually, as one might expect.

(*Britain not British.-QED?)

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Steady on. The Aussies may have been convicts, but I don’t think they were ever slaves.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago

Ah yes, Test year.
The only sport British invented that is only played by former slaves of Empire.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Terry M

Is that true? How very sad.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Terry M

What “disgraceful behaviour” is that?
I must admit I have NOT being paying much attention to all this, as this was a Test year after all.

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Terry M

Is that true? How very sad.

Terry M
Terry M
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Glad to see our gals lose after their disgraceful behavior, led by Ms Rapinoe, who, ironically, is all for trans ‘women’ competing now that she has made her million$.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago

Footy aside, which on a technical level improves visibly with each passing women’s tournament, it feels somewhat like the revenge of the lesbian community on the cultural zeitgeist.
Or at least the rather novel notion of the working-class girl who does more than pass her hours on social media.
Represented ironically by Meghan Rapinoe, the US is sadly the outlier here while kneeling aside, the English women’s team seems to be stepping out of the 51st State shadow for once. On verra…

Rick Lawrence
Rick Lawrence
1 year ago

Comments that centre around whether women’s football is not as good as men’s and therefore not worth watching are completely missing the point. People play and watch sports for enjoyment, and fans of club or national football are fans because they are, well, fans of that club or national team, regardless of gender, skill levels or having the best players. I mean, why do people in the London area enthusiastically support teams like Charlton, Leyton Orient or Sutton United when they could support “much better teams” like Arsenal, Tottenham or Chelsea? Or why do people in the Manchester area support teams like Stockport, Wigan or Salford when Man City and Man Utd are very close by? The women’s game has improved by leaps and bounds and is very watchable. Not as good as men? Not relevant to those who follow and support the teams. BTW, the Saudi leagues will not become popular just because Ronaldo, Neymar and others have cashed in.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rick Lawrence
Rick Lawrence
Rick Lawrence
1 year ago

Comments that centre around whether women’s football is not as good as men’s and therefore not worth watching are completely missing the point. People play and watch sports for enjoyment, and fans of club or national football are fans because they are, well, fans of that club or national team, regardless of gender, skill levels or having the best players. I mean, why do people in the London area enthusiastically support teams like Charlton, Leyton Orient or Sutton United when they could support “much better teams” like Arsenal, Tottenham or Chelsea? Or why do people in the Manchester area support teams like Stockport, Wigan or Salford when Man City and Man Utd are very close by? The women’s game has improved by leaps and bounds and is very watchable. Not as good as men? Not relevant to those who follow and support the teams. BTW, the Saudi leagues will not become popular just because Ronaldo, Neymar and others have cashed in.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rick Lawrence
Richard Abbot
Richard Abbot
1 year ago

It used to be true that women were the superior sex precisely because most of them recognised the pointlessness of competitive team sports. It is a sign of further social degradation that women now seem in love with the utterly meaningless activity of kicking a ball around a park for 90 minutes. Oh how we have fallen. The tyranny of bread and circuses seems unstoppable.

Richard Abbot
Richard Abbot
1 year ago

It used to be true that women were the superior sex precisely because most of them recognised the pointlessness of competitive team sports. It is a sign of further social degradation that women now seem in love with the utterly meaningless activity of kicking a ball around a park for 90 minutes. Oh how we have fallen. The tyranny of bread and circuses seems unstoppable.

Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
1 year ago

(?) Evidently, the writer is immune to sports’ appeal, is annoyed that other people aren’t, and is determined to pooh-pooh the whole enterprise because of its failure to fix and/or rise above flaws that afflict all societies in general. The result is less an analysis of sports than an incoherent indictment of people who unaccountably fail to share his sensibilities. Writing it must have been a lonely project, a forlorn splashing of mud on the wheels of the golden carriage as it sweeps by, admired by everyone else. Too bad he won’t be able to join the fun on Sunday, but as an alternative to nursing his resentments maybe he can take a relaxing walk in the park or a refreshing drive in the country. By all means, let him find a quiet bench in the sunshine and re-read some Somerset Maugham; the nation will neither begrudge him the solace nor miss him.
P.S. Why pick on women footballers in particular? It’s never made clear, and most readers likely don’t care; but the seeming irrelevance of the gratuitous sideswipe makes you wonder just how many bees are buzzing around in this poor chap’s bonnet.

Last edited 1 year ago by Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
Mark Kennedy
1 year ago

(?) Evidently, the writer is immune to sports’ appeal, is annoyed that other people aren’t, and is determined to pooh-pooh the whole enterprise because of its failure to fix and/or rise above flaws that afflict all societies in general. The result is less an analysis of sports than an incoherent indictment of people who unaccountably fail to share his sensibilities. Writing it must have been a lonely project, a forlorn splashing of mud on the wheels of the golden carriage as it sweeps by, admired by everyone else. Too bad he won’t be able to join the fun on Sunday, but as an alternative to nursing his resentments maybe he can take a relaxing walk in the park or a refreshing drive in the country. By all means, let him find a quiet bench in the sunshine and re-read some Somerset Maugham; the nation will neither begrudge him the solace nor miss him.
P.S. Why pick on women footballers in particular? It’s never made clear, and most readers likely don’t care; but the seeming irrelevance of the gratuitous sideswipe makes you wonder just how many bees are buzzing around in this poor chap’s bonnet.

Last edited 1 year ago by Mark Kennedy
John Dzurak
John Dzurak
1 year ago

Girls playing sports…what’s not to like if it’s not politicized like everything else seems to be these days? I’m from the USA and loved to see that Rapinoe ass fail. Love the pretty girls from England, Sweden, Denmark, and Spain. I’m a man and it’s not a religious event. Let’s have some fun or is that outlawed now too?

John Dzurak
John Dzurak
1 year ago

Girls playing sports…what’s not to like if it’s not politicized like everything else seems to be these days? I’m from the USA and loved to see that Rapinoe ass fail. Love the pretty girls from England, Sweden, Denmark, and Spain. I’m a man and it’s not a religious event. Let’s have some fun or is that outlawed now too?

V Reade
V Reade
1 year ago

I was enjoying watching the odd game in the women’s world football competition. But, England were struggling, grinding out results etc…etc. And the media were, er, barely noticing. (Imagine that in the men’s game!?)
Great. As it should be.
Then, England progressed to the semi-final.
And , the media suddenly woke up (there’s a clue there…)
And we now have a load of hyperbolic nonsense being splurged out and we’re back into episode 133 of the culture wars.

Last edited 1 year ago by V Reade
V Reade
V Reade
1 year ago

I was enjoying watching the odd game in the women’s world football competition. But, England were struggling, grinding out results etc…etc. And the media were, er, barely noticing. (Imagine that in the men’s game!?)
Great. As it should be.
Then, England progressed to the semi-final.
And , the media suddenly woke up (there’s a clue there…)
And we now have a load of hyperbolic nonsense being splurged out and we’re back into episode 133 of the culture wars.

Last edited 1 year ago by V Reade
William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

Once the women’s game has been corrupted with a large influx of cash, it will just become like the men’s game, and all this tedious talk of the profound significance of women’s football will disappear.

William Edward Henry Appleby
William Edward Henry Appleby
1 year ago

Once the women’s game has been corrupted with a large influx of cash, it will just become like the men’s game, and all this tedious talk of the profound significance of women’s football will disappear.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

Well, I tried watching for ten minutes, and sorry, but to me but it looks sluggish and insipid.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
1 year ago

Well, I tried watching for ten minutes, and sorry, but to me but it looks sluggish and insipid.

Stewart Dixon
Stewart Dixon
1 year ago

Davey as a future guide to what would be good news? You have to be joking – he doesn’t know what a woman is and thinks some of them have penises. Get a grip JW.

Stewart Dixon
Stewart Dixon
1 year ago

Davey as a future guide to what would be good news? You have to be joking – he doesn’t know what a woman is and thinks some of them have penises. Get a grip JW.

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago

Oh well, heartbreak, agony, deflation as ‘our’ finest feminists fail to beat Spains finest feminists in an allegedly nail-biting final.
Will my lack of sympathy be noted as a non-crime hate incident?

N Satori
N Satori
1 year ago

Oh well, heartbreak, agony, deflation as ‘our’ finest feminists fail to beat Spains finest feminists in an allegedly nail-biting final.
Will my lack of sympathy be noted as a non-crime hate incident?

James Kirk
James Kirk
1 year ago

And if they don’t win? They’ll be derided and hoist as failures. This is the nature of sportsmanship today: unsporting. I always look at the Olympics or Formula One, a Bronze is seen as ‘could try harder’ Fourth? Invisible, top of the also rans, top of all performers bar three. Especially when judged by non participants. The slowest woman athlete would beat the average man in the street by miles.
Already talk of welcoming trans women into their ranks. Then what? Challenge a lower league men’s team and then only allowed the ball if the men’s team feel like it.

James Kirk
James Kirk
1 year ago

And if they don’t win? They’ll be derided and hoist as failures. This is the nature of sportsmanship today: unsporting. I always look at the Olympics or Formula One, a Bronze is seen as ‘could try harder’ Fourth? Invisible, top of the also rans, top of all performers bar three. Especially when judged by non participants. The slowest woman athlete would beat the average man in the street by miles.
Already talk of welcoming trans women into their ranks. Then what? Challenge a lower league men’s team and then only allowed the ball if the men’s team feel like it.

ben arnulfssen
ben arnulfssen
1 year ago

What does it mean? Well, judging by the media coverage, most of the team are gay, mixed race or both, so draw your own conclusions

Last edited 1 year ago by ben arnulfssen
Champagne Socialist
Champagne Socialist
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

Does that trigger you, Ben?

Malcolm Powell
Malcolm Powell
1 year ago
Reply to  ben arnulfssen

Indeed. Given that both groups are very small proporion of the total female popuation, you have to wonder why this is the case

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago

What is the point? It seems to be that the public like watching a winning team even if the winning team would be a loosing team against a comparable team of men.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago

What is the point? It seems to be that the public like watching a winning team even if the winning team would be a loosing team against a comparable team of men.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago

The point is that by getting the other half of the human race to take football seriously and attending to their matches with some enthusiasm, we get more good footy to watch than we would if we just paid attention to the men’s game.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

Damn voting system. I up voted you,David, but it didn’t register. There was a zero, surely if I upvoted it woud go to one, but it didn’t. I don’t get it.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  David Yetter

Damn voting system. I up voted you,David, but it didn’t register. There was a zero, surely if I upvoted it woud go to one, but it didn’t. I don’t get it.

David Yetter
David Yetter
1 year ago

The point is that by getting the other half of the human race to take football seriously and attending to their matches with some enthusiasm, we get more good footy to watch than we would if we just paid attention to the men’s game.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
1 year ago

I think these Tour d’horizon articles are more about the writer than the subject. It’s just football, enjoy it. Leave the big waffley, state of the nation revealed through a footie game, stuff to politicians.
Women’s football will grow and grow and , sadly, probably become more like the men’s game where millionaires and billionaires tweet ‘man-of-the-people’ stuff and talk in a slightly cartoonish argot to draw attention away from their own wealth and privilege, in what used to be called the people’s game.
But just right now, and last summer, the woman’s game hasn’t reached that state yet, we should enjoy it while it lasts.
Don’t even get me started on VAR.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

I haven’t watched football since the stupid morons started “taking the knee”. That said, I do like how the Whiteness of the England women’s team offends the woke skum.

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago

I think the England men’s team need Wiegman – Southgate has had his day, time for some fresh blood and she has more than proved she is a fantastic manager. The Lionesses are going from strength to strength, and I wish them luck for tomorrow. My money is on an England win, hopefully in normal time but we know the girls can go the distance and even win on penalties if required.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
1 year ago

I think the England men’s team need Wiegman – Southgate has had his day, time for some fresh blood and she has more than proved she is a fantastic manager. The Lionesses are going from strength to strength, and I wish them luck for tomorrow. My money is on an England win, hopefully in normal time but we know the girls can go the distance and even win on penalties if required.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
1 year ago

I cannot tell you how much I want the Lionesses to win the World Cup. At that point, if it did not happen last year, then English football would become primarily a sport for girls. I have waited 41 years, since the day that I started school, for the fun that I would have with that.

David Lindsay
David Lindsay
1 year ago

I cannot tell you how much I want the Lionesses to win the World Cup. At that point, if it did not happen last year, then English football would become primarily a sport for girls. I have waited 41 years, since the day that I started school, for the fun that I would have with that.