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The moral panic over looting Riots hold a mirror to a sick society

Broken Britain, 2011 (Dan Istitene/Getty Images)

Broken Britain, 2011 (Dan Istitene/Getty Images)


August 17, 2023   3 mins

Just when you thought it was safe to go back to the post-Bibby Stockholm seaside, Britain’s coastline has become assailed by a new moral panic: TikTok-inspired, flash-mob looting. Such behaviour is “appalling” and “unacceptable”, tutted Rishi Sunak this week, before slipping in that its recent flare-ups “obviously happened while I was abroad”. But just as Alan Clark famously praised our football hooligans as “a kind of compliment to the English martial spirit” when going mano a mano against foreign yobs, perhaps it’s time we also gave our looters and rioters a little more credit.

Hear me out. After descending on Oxford Street last Wednesday, scores of “troublemakers” urged a bunch of copycat looters to shift their focus to the careworn seaside town of Southend and “get lit”. In response, the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, ordered the Met to “hunt down and lock up” the culprits, as though they were the Krays.

Obviously, crime is part of Braverman’s brief; and the Tories are desperate to regain their status as the party of law and order, not least because too many of their own (prime) ministers have been on the wrong side of the police. But the Oxford Street flash mob was no Cable Street riot; and the events in Southend turned out to be far tamer than anything previous generations of mods, rockers and sundry other yobs had brought to the Essex town.

This isn’t to excuse the sort of mass, wanton disregard for the law that we’ve seen of late. But it is hard not to conclude that the same vote-grabbing politicians who whipped up moral panics over ram-raiders, Rolex-robbers and other media-hyped miscreants now want looters to as the bogeyman du jour — even if, in reality, these wayward youths are part of a more complex criminal profile that can’t be easily dismissed as a (largely black) youth problem.

It’s easy to blame absent fathers, again because this is a well-honed stereotype, but the frequent promotion of this dead cat fails to address the real problem here: Britain’s lack of leadership or adult responsibility. Whether it’s pederastic TV presenters or man-child prime ministers, Britain’s culture of role-modelling and leadership makes the average package-tour rep look like Shaka Zulu. How can we expect bored, feckless, confused, constantly castigated and pandemic-traumatised young people to cosplay as upstanding citizens when adults in positions of responsibility can’t even be bothered to do so themselves?

But perhaps that was never the point, given the degree to which conspicuous youth crime and deviant behaviour is imbued with media and political capital. Looting makes for a good story because it conspicuously feeds into our subconscious biases about “the other”. It’s a form of mass projection. Better to blame other parents for their errant brood, who we can see on TV and social media, than wonder why your own children might also be suffering from any number of modern malaises at home — eating disorders, self-harm, anxiety — all of which are expressions of a looting of the self.

And this is always the way with every moral panic. Whether it’s Jews, Italians, West Indians, Pakistanis, Somalians, Albanians, Polish plumbers, acid house ravers, radical feminists, Black Lives Matter or Gary Lineker, there’s always some bogeyman hiding in plain sight, trying to usurp the British. Every manifestation shares one thing in common: a sense of disenchantment, of losing control. Today, it takes the form of a pandemic generation of internet-impressionable and vulnerable youths who have all but given up on the idea of youth being “the best days of your life”. For many, these are the worst days.

Despite this, Britain’s politicians seem content with dismissing the nation’s arrested development as “the kind of lawlessness seen in some American cities”, blind to the fact that the causes, and solutions, lie closer to home. During the UK’s 2011 riots, which had nothing to do with “American lawlessness” and everything to do with “broken Britain”, the general consensus was that a “feral underclass” of looters deserved the draconian sentences they received. The logic here was that the riots were not a political act but a mass criminal enterprise — and, as such, Westminster could shift responsibility away from its policymaking and let the courts deal with the problem.

Fundamentally, the rioters’ behaviour in 2011 was criminal, as is today’s looting. But visit inner-city Britain or its less-than-picture-postcard rural and suburban wastelands and you will witness the real conditions people are living under. We know that poverty isn’t just about a lack of money. It’s about a lack of opportunity, prospects and hope. As Thatcher and Cameron, then Blair and Brown, mortgaged British society, economically and morally, today’s political leaders are squandering what’s left. Riots and looting and recession are their legacy.

In 2011, one of the rioters sent out a Blackberry message in pidgin text-speak that illustrated the mentality of this disorder: “What ever ends [area] your from put your ballys [balaclavas] on link up and cause havic, just rob everything. Police can’t stop it.” David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, remarked at the time that this was freedom “without any sense of duty”. “Our society needs to reconnect with other important, informal regulators of behaviour. Notions of decency towards others. Pride. Shame. Admiration. Scorn.” More than a decade later, plus ça change.


David Matthews is an award-winning writer and filmmaker.

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Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago

“This isn’t to excuse the sort of mass, wanton disregard for the law that we’ve seen of late” – to be followed with pathetic excuses such as boredom, confusion, Boris Johnson’s fixed penalty notice and pandemic trauma.
In one thing I am in agreement with the author: “the real problem here: Britain’s lack of leadership or adult responsibility”. The thing is, his dismissal and pathetic excuse making for black criminality is exactly the lack of leadership and failure to exert adult responsibility he speaks of. Like the weak parent who is always ready with an excuse for their out of control child’s behaviour, and insist they are really a good boy, he and his ilk are the root cause of the problem.
Black fathers deserting their children is not a “stereotype”; it is a fact. These lawless brats probably never received and discipline and moral teaching in the home. They certainly didn’t get it in school, where they were busy getting a chip placed on their shoulders when told how oppressed they were, and how their failure and bad behaviour was the result of “systemic racism”.
No discipline, no moral teaching, brought up on junk culture, let off with slaps on the wrist by the police and courts and with an army of excuse makers like the author – that is where these feral brats come from.
The author invokes moral panics. A career criminal in the USA, with heart disease and Covid, high on a lethal dose of crystal meth and Fentanyl, has a heart attack while resisting arrest. Riots, worldwide protests, the demonisation of the entire white race, the institution of anti-racism training and “decolonisation” and racial discrimination against white people ensue everywhere. I’d say that was the biggest moral panic in history, and at the heart of it was the same failure to place blame where it actually lay, and instead offer pathetic excuses such as “systemic racism” and “white supremacy” to explain why the death by heart attack of a self-overdosed career criminal resisting arrest wasn’t his fault;
As was predictable, the hysterical, misguided response to Floyd’s death has made the lives of law abiding black people worse. Not only are they the primary victims of the increase black crime, but they suffer as a result of association with the criminals. If the author and black people in general stopped defending criminals and instead worked with the police to punish them and drive them out of their communities. we would be on the way to a better future, instead of a further descent in to criminality and social conflict.

Last edited 10 months ago by Marcus Leach
Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

The life of law abiding young black men before Floyd’s death consisted of frequent stop and search for no reason other than they were black in a high crime neighbourhood and frequent vehicle stops for no reason by police officers who claimed to have smelt marijuana when they found that the driver owned the vehicle and had no substances on or in him.
Had the police used their positions of authority to use intelligence to target actual criminals rather than harass young men whose colour offended them, far fewer people would have gone on the BLM marches.

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
10 months ago

Black kids are 5-6x more likely to be involved in crime. Cops know what criminals look like. “Stop and frisk” is a good program, and needs to be re-implemented. Too many criminals are just walking around. And, yes, most of them are black.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

As Jesse Jackson famously put it
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps… then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
10 months ago

I remember taking a psychology class in college and reading about an experiment where people were asked to describe a suspect after witnessing a staged crime. The consistently over-reported the suspect as being black when he was not, but rarely made the opposite error, and this held for black witnesses as well as white, a point your quote also illustrates.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
10 months ago

I remember taking a psychology class in college and reading about an experiment where people were asked to describe a suspect after witnessing a staged crime. The consistently over-reported the suspect as being black when he was not, but rarely made the opposite error, and this held for black witnesses as well as white, a point your quote also illustrates.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

If a crime is reported and the description of the perp is young 6ft black man in his teens wearing a grey hoodie, the cops should definitely stop and frisk 5ft middle-aged Asian women in pink blouses. It’s only fair.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago

They may as well fish for tuna on a mountain top.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago

They may as well fish for tuna on a mountain top.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

“Cops know what criminals look like”? Are you serious? Sure they can spot nervousness in a young Brazilian who hasn’t paid his tube fare and then pump 6 bullets into him ..presumably to make sure he buys a ticket next time.. I thought extreme right wingers were extinct in the UK or at least had the good sense to keep quiet about it?

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes, they know. Spend two years as a cop on the street, and you’ll know things you wish you never did. Why else is the suicide rate among cops higher than almost all other demographics?

Mark Turner
Mark Turner
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Christ, I can spot a wrong un walking down the street a mile off, I am sure most people can, I spent 30 years living in Hackney. If I can, so can the Police. WTF has that got to do with “extreme right wingers” ? Is there even such a thing outside your febrile mind???

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
9 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

What a truly stupid comment. You may recall that we’d had a number of terrorist attacks at the time including on the Underground. It was a mistake, but an understandable one. My reaction if the police were shouting at me to stop wouldn’t be to run away as fast as possible… Let’s do better police training, whatever, but let’s acknowledge how hard their job is – they are often dealing with brutal and dangerous people who will stop at nothing to get away and to cause harm to others. Try and live in a society without them – Mogadishu might be a good model – then you can live with your smug liberal certitudes for what, an hour before coming home to reality.

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes, they know. Spend two years as a cop on the street, and you’ll know things you wish you never did. Why else is the suicide rate among cops higher than almost all other demographics?

Mark Turner
Mark Turner
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Christ, I can spot a wrong un walking down the street a mile off, I am sure most people can, I spent 30 years living in Hackney. If I can, so can the Police. WTF has that got to do with “extreme right wingers” ? Is there even such a thing outside your febrile mind???

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
9 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

What a truly stupid comment. You may recall that we’d had a number of terrorist attacks at the time including on the Underground. It was a mistake, but an understandable one. My reaction if the police were shouting at me to stop wouldn’t be to run away as fast as possible… Let’s do better police training, whatever, but let’s acknowledge how hard their job is – they are often dealing with brutal and dangerous people who will stop at nothing to get away and to cause harm to others. Try and live in a society without them – Mogadishu might be a good model – then you can live with your smug liberal certitudes for what, an hour before coming home to reality.

Matt Hindman
Matt Hindman
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

The whole concept of Stop and Frisk is about as unconstitutional as it gets under US law. It would never survive a Supreme Court challenge.

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

Of course it is, but we haven’t respected constitutionality in the U.S. since the 1930s. Why start now?

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Rob C

Well arguably, the US hasn’t truly respected its Constitution ever. But certainly it was grossly subverted as early as 1917 by the foul Woodrow Wilson, when the First Amendment was obscenely thrown out the window by the so-called Courts to allow the jailing of anyone expressing the slightest public scepticism of his embarkation on a European War and introduction of conscription. Not to mention that moralistic academic Democrat swine’s resegregation of the Federal Government.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Rob C

Well arguably, the US hasn’t truly respected its Constitution ever. But certainly it was grossly subverted as early as 1917 by the foul Woodrow Wilson, when the First Amendment was obscenely thrown out the window by the so-called Courts to allow the jailing of anyone expressing the slightest public scepticism of his embarkation on a European War and introduction of conscription. Not to mention that moralistic academic Democrat swine’s resegregation of the Federal Government.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

An unpopular comment, but in Constitutional terms, quite correct.

Rob C
Rob C
10 months ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

Of course it is, but we haven’t respected constitutionality in the U.S. since the 1930s. Why start now?

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Matt Hindman

An unpopular comment, but in Constitutional terms, quite correct.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

As Jesse Jackson famously put it
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps… then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

If a crime is reported and the description of the perp is young 6ft black man in his teens wearing a grey hoodie, the cops should definitely stop and frisk 5ft middle-aged Asian women in pink blouses. It’s only fair.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

“Cops know what criminals look like”? Are you serious? Sure they can spot nervousness in a young Brazilian who hasn’t paid his tube fare and then pump 6 bullets into him ..presumably to make sure he buys a ticket next time.. I thought extreme right wingers were extinct in the UK or at least had the good sense to keep quiet about it?

Matt Hindman
Matt Hindman
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

The whole concept of Stop and Frisk is about as unconstitutional as it gets under US law. It would never survive a Supreme Court challenge.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago

I’m not sure that you’ve understood Stop and Search. The police are called to areas where there has been a crime. These, shock horror, are often in areas where many black people live. The victim says the perp was a young black man. Therefore, in a mainly black area and looking for a black male perp, it makes sense to stop and search black men. The alternatives to this are simply to stop doing Stop and Searches and let the crime go, or stop and search lots of elderly white men and Asian ladies, just to show how un-racist the police are. Which do you recommend?

Last edited 10 months ago by Keith Merrick
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago

“frequent stop and search for no reason”
What % of these blacks were black women?
And as this is invariably well below 50%, is it because the police are institutionally sexist against men?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

Not many BLM folk on this thread I’m afraid.. it is generally a little skewed in favour of the lash especially for those who not white and ‘English’ whatever that means ..Anglo, Saxo, Franco, Celto, sommit or other I suppose?

George Stone
George Stone
9 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

you forgot Irish.

George Stone
George Stone
9 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

you forgot Irish.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago

In the US we have seen what happens when the police pull back from policing black neighbourhoods. Serious crime, including murder, robberies, rape and domestic violence dramatically increased, and, as I said, it is the black people who are the vast majority of the victims of those crimes. In Britain, when Theresa May listened to the do-gooders who whined about disproportionate use of stop a search, and put a stop to it, the knife crime and the number of dead black people quickly shot up. Do-gooders like you, and your silly simplistic naivety, do nothing but make law abiding black people’s lives worse.
Let’s take a hypothetical situation. Let’s say that white people committed a grossly disproportionate amount of crime; far greater proportionately than black people. If the police were to target black people at the same level as white people, would that be fair to black people? Would it be “black privilege” if the police didn’t target them in equal measure?
If I as a white person was stopped and questioned by the police more often because white people committed so much crime, who should I be angry at? If criminality is afflicting the area where I live, I want the police to catch the scumbags and bang them up. Those criminals are the source of the misery of crime, the reason the police are stopping me and the reason for the creation of an association between whiteness and criminality. For me to direct the anger at the police would be self-defeating imbecility. If a black do-gooder equivalent of you then sought to stop the policing of my area, knowing the inevitable disastrous consequences, I would be understandably furious at them.

Last edited 10 months ago by Marcus Leach
SIMON WOLF
SIMON WOLF
10 months ago

Are you sure you are not referring to policing to UK multicultural urban areas before the 1981 Brixton riots nearly 39 years before Eddie Floyds tragic death?As a law abiding citizen from the suburbs my impression is that ever since the Scarman report the authorities have been trying their best not alienate the black community

Mark Turner
Mark Turner
10 months ago

Ummmm…where do I start….there is no “intelligence” on young black men carrying knives ….. I do bemoan the almost 1984 police state we live in now, but thankfully its not that bad yet!! I would be interested for you tell us what intelligence gathering system the Police have in place to determine what weapon a random black youth maybe carrying as he leaves the house, where he going and what he is doing……C’mon! Their colour does not offend the Police, its their behaviour & attitude I think you will find. A scrote is a scrote irrespective of skin colour.
And you are also missing the point that large numbers of stop and searches DO result in weapons and drugs being found……

Last edited 10 months ago by Mark Turner
Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
10 months ago

Black kids are 5-6x more likely to be involved in crime. Cops know what criminals look like. “Stop and frisk” is a good program, and needs to be re-implemented. Too many criminals are just walking around. And, yes, most of them are black.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago

I’m not sure that you’ve understood Stop and Search. The police are called to areas where there has been a crime. These, shock horror, are often in areas where many black people live. The victim says the perp was a young black man. Therefore, in a mainly black area and looking for a black male perp, it makes sense to stop and search black men. The alternatives to this are simply to stop doing Stop and Searches and let the crime go, or stop and search lots of elderly white men and Asian ladies, just to show how un-racist the police are. Which do you recommend?

Last edited 10 months ago by Keith Merrick
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago

“frequent stop and search for no reason”
What % of these blacks were black women?
And as this is invariably well below 50%, is it because the police are institutionally sexist against men?

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

Not many BLM folk on this thread I’m afraid.. it is generally a little skewed in favour of the lash especially for those who not white and ‘English’ whatever that means ..Anglo, Saxo, Franco, Celto, sommit or other I suppose?

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago

In the US we have seen what happens when the police pull back from policing black neighbourhoods. Serious crime, including murder, robberies, rape and domestic violence dramatically increased, and, as I said, it is the black people who are the vast majority of the victims of those crimes. In Britain, when Theresa May listened to the do-gooders who whined about disproportionate use of stop a search, and put a stop to it, the knife crime and the number of dead black people quickly shot up. Do-gooders like you, and your silly simplistic naivety, do nothing but make law abiding black people’s lives worse.
Let’s take a hypothetical situation. Let’s say that white people committed a grossly disproportionate amount of crime; far greater proportionately than black people. If the police were to target black people at the same level as white people, would that be fair to black people? Would it be “black privilege” if the police didn’t target them in equal measure?
If I as a white person was stopped and questioned by the police more often because white people committed so much crime, who should I be angry at? If criminality is afflicting the area where I live, I want the police to catch the scumbags and bang them up. Those criminals are the source of the misery of crime, the reason the police are stopping me and the reason for the creation of an association between whiteness and criminality. For me to direct the anger at the police would be self-defeating imbecility. If a black do-gooder equivalent of you then sought to stop the policing of my area, knowing the inevitable disastrous consequences, I would be understandably furious at them.

Last edited 10 months ago by Marcus Leach
SIMON WOLF
SIMON WOLF
10 months ago

Are you sure you are not referring to policing to UK multicultural urban areas before the 1981 Brixton riots nearly 39 years before Eddie Floyds tragic death?As a law abiding citizen from the suburbs my impression is that ever since the Scarman report the authorities have been trying their best not alienate the black community

Mark Turner
Mark Turner
10 months ago

Ummmm…where do I start….there is no “intelligence” on young black men carrying knives ….. I do bemoan the almost 1984 police state we live in now, but thankfully its not that bad yet!! I would be interested for you tell us what intelligence gathering system the Police have in place to determine what weapon a random black youth maybe carrying as he leaves the house, where he going and what he is doing……C’mon! Their colour does not offend the Police, its their behaviour & attitude I think you will find. A scrote is a scrote irrespective of skin colour.
And you are also missing the point that large numbers of stop and searches DO result in weapons and drugs being found……

Last edited 10 months ago by Mark Turner
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I thought it was lawful to shot looters

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago

They used to hang horse thieves on the spot, no trial.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

I think it’s boil ’em oil.. or maybe burn ’em at the stake.. something like that anyway.

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
10 months ago

In Hawai’i, on Mau’i, where the terrible fires occurred, some houses contiguous to but not in the fire zone are now being looted. If it was my house, I would be shooting looters in the face.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

This only works when the looters are sole opportunists, not part of criminal gangs with resources and time to organise revenge attacks.
While our justice systems are focusing on criminals’ appeasement, lawlessness will continue to escalate.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

This only works when the looters are sole opportunists, not part of criminal gangs with resources and time to organise revenge attacks.
While our justice systems are focusing on criminals’ appeasement, lawlessness will continue to escalate.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago

They used to hang horse thieves on the spot, no trial.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

I think it’s boil ’em oil.. or maybe burn ’em at the stake.. something like that anyway.

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
10 months ago

In Hawai’i, on Mau’i, where the terrible fires occurred, some houses contiguous to but not in the fire zone are now being looted. If it was my house, I would be shooting looters in the face.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I remember years ago reading an article by Muriel Gray. In it she said how outraged she and the camera team were about their Irish colleague always being stopped and questioned by the British police. This was during the IRA bombing campaign in mainland Britain. The only person who understood it and wasn’t at all outraged was the Irishman himself. He knew that all Irishmen aren’t terrorists but at that time nearly all terrorists in Britian were Irish. Therefore it made sense to him that he was the one to be stopped and questioned. Just a pity the author of this piece isn’t as understanding.

Last edited 10 months ago by Keith Merrick
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Oh, was that what happened to Floyd? And was that the actual cause? ..or was it not the myriad of similar cases of police brutality all over the US, predominantly against black victims. Nothing like a good whitewash is there? .. and I see 74 more with brush and paint can in hand! I’ve got to hand it to you extreme rightwingers in GB, you do whitewashing better than anyone!

Terry Raby
Terry Raby
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The statistics are very clear – there is no police discrmination agaist blacks in the USA. Roland Fryer’s research is (still) definitive. Have you read it?

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes it is what happened. If you care to look at the autopsy and toxicology reports, the actual footage of the events and the trial transcripts, you will find these are established facts.
I could add that in court footage showed that the officer’s leg was not on Floyd’s neck but on his shoulder blade. The autopsy showed Floyd had no trauma to his neck. The restraint technique the officer used is what he was trained to do and is specifically pictured in the Minnesota police training manual.
The facts are there if you want to know the truth.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I believe you are right. Yet that being the case, how come the officer is serving a life sentence for murder? I know the US justice system is becoming a joke but surely the officer’s lawyer could have pointed out the things that you just pointed out. Are things really that bad.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago
Reply to  Keith Merrick

I suppose it is best to start with the obvious. Why would a police officer who is supposedly murdering someone be so relaxed and content to let it be filmed by numerous people? That by itself should have been enough to provide the necessary reasonable doubt of an intention to kill by officer Chauvin.
From the perspective of the English legal system, putting decisions about prosecutions in the hands of a politically appointed individual would be an anathema. Put an ambitious, attention seeking, black Democrat prosecutor in charge of the decision to prosecute Chauvin, and the prosecution was inevitable.
On the matter of why the jury convicted, we have to be realistic of the consequences for them if they didn’t convict. They would have been hounded and demonised. The defence tried to get the case transferred out of Minnesota on the basis that a jury of local people antagonistic to the police could not deliver a fair verdict. That this was rejected.
Take 12 random people who would have watched the MSM hysteria around Floyd; put them in a court room with various “experts” talking about medical evidence they don’t really understand; have a state appointed defence attorney who doesn’t want to win the case, and injustice is inevitable.
After the verdict in the OJ Simpson case, a juror was questioned about why she wasn’t convinced of Simpson’s guilt when there was an enormous amount of incriminating evidence in relation to blood deposits. Her response was: “everybody’s got blood”.
There is an unjustifiable reverence for the determination of juries by society. For legal professionals who deal day with the reality of those who turn up for jury service, the perceived sagacity of those individuals is ridiculous.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Sorry, I’ve only just seen your reply.
Some very good points, the first being one I hadn’t thought of. Indeed, if someone believes they are committing a crime they are rarely so sanguine about being filmed.
Yes, anybody who has been in the world a while should know that random people off the street are unlikely to be the best judges of a complex case, especially when they already know the accused is a murderous racist bigot. The poor bloke never stood a chance.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Sorry, I’ve only just seen your reply.
Some very good points, the first being one I hadn’t thought of. Indeed, if someone believes they are committing a crime they are rarely so sanguine about being filmed.
Yes, anybody who has been in the world a while should know that random people off the street are unlikely to be the best judges of a complex case, especially when they already know the accused is a murderous racist bigot. The poor bloke never stood a chance.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago
Reply to  Keith Merrick

I suppose it is best to start with the obvious. Why would a police officer who is supposedly murdering someone be so relaxed and content to let it be filmed by numerous people? That by itself should have been enough to provide the necessary reasonable doubt of an intention to kill by officer Chauvin.
From the perspective of the English legal system, putting decisions about prosecutions in the hands of a politically appointed individual would be an anathema. Put an ambitious, attention seeking, black Democrat prosecutor in charge of the decision to prosecute Chauvin, and the prosecution was inevitable.
On the matter of why the jury convicted, we have to be realistic of the consequences for them if they didn’t convict. They would have been hounded and demonised. The defence tried to get the case transferred out of Minnesota on the basis that a jury of local people antagonistic to the police could not deliver a fair verdict. That this was rejected.
Take 12 random people who would have watched the MSM hysteria around Floyd; put them in a court room with various “experts” talking about medical evidence they don’t really understand; have a state appointed defence attorney who doesn’t want to win the case, and injustice is inevitable.
After the verdict in the OJ Simpson case, a juror was questioned about why she wasn’t convinced of Simpson’s guilt when there was an enormous amount of incriminating evidence in relation to blood deposits. Her response was: “everybody’s got blood”.
There is an unjustifiable reverence for the determination of juries by society. For legal professionals who deal day with the reality of those who turn up for jury service, the perceived sagacity of those individuals is ridiculous.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I believe you are right. Yet that being the case, how come the officer is serving a life sentence for murder? I know the US justice system is becoming a joke but surely the officer’s lawyer could have pointed out the things that you just pointed out. Are things really that bad.

john gill
john gill
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Actually, more whites than blacks are shot by police in America. That’s hardly surprising, since there are far more whites than blacks. Even so, police shootings certainly do “disparately impact” blacks to a considerable degree. And this in turn is unsurprising since proportionately more crimes are committed by blacks than any other racial group. White liberals will never admit it but that is the real problem. Of course, there still are trigger happy cops, both white and black (though the media take scant notice of the latter.)

Police tend to go where the crime is, rather than where it is not. Until lower class young black males stop committing a disparate share of America’s violent crime they will continue to suffer a disparate share of police encounters and, hence, of police shootings.

But if it makes you feel better to blame it on “Whiteness” or climate change or lunar cheese, then go ahead.

Last edited 10 months ago by john gill
Terry Raby
Terry Raby
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

The statistics are very clear – there is no police discrmination agaist blacks in the USA. Roland Fryer’s research is (still) definitive. Have you read it?

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Yes it is what happened. If you care to look at the autopsy and toxicology reports, the actual footage of the events and the trial transcripts, you will find these are established facts.
I could add that in court footage showed that the officer’s leg was not on Floyd’s neck but on his shoulder blade. The autopsy showed Floyd had no trauma to his neck. The restraint technique the officer used is what he was trained to do and is specifically pictured in the Minnesota police training manual.
The facts are there if you want to know the truth.

john gill
john gill
10 months ago
Reply to  Liam O'Mahony

Actually, more whites than blacks are shot by police in America. That’s hardly surprising, since there are far more whites than blacks. Even so, police shootings certainly do “disparately impact” blacks to a considerable degree. And this in turn is unsurprising since proportionately more crimes are committed by blacks than any other racial group. White liberals will never admit it but that is the real problem. Of course, there still are trigger happy cops, both white and black (though the media take scant notice of the latter.)

Police tend to go where the crime is, rather than where it is not. Until lower class young black males stop committing a disparate share of America’s violent crime they will continue to suffer a disparate share of police encounters and, hence, of police shootings.

But if it makes you feel better to blame it on “Whiteness” or climate change or lunar cheese, then go ahead.

Last edited 10 months ago by john gill
Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Imprisonment doesn’t work though, because having served jail time is viewed as a rite of passage, and the usual suspects form gangs in prisons terrorising fellow inmates and staff alike.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

The life of law abiding young black men before Floyd’s death consisted of frequent stop and search for no reason other than they were black in a high crime neighbourhood and frequent vehicle stops for no reason by police officers who claimed to have smelt marijuana when they found that the driver owned the vehicle and had no substances on or in him.
Had the police used their positions of authority to use intelligence to target actual criminals rather than harass young men whose colour offended them, far fewer people would have gone on the BLM marches.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I thought it was lawful to shot looters

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

I remember years ago reading an article by Muriel Gray. In it she said how outraged she and the camera team were about their Irish colleague always being stopped and questioned by the British police. This was during the IRA bombing campaign in mainland Britain. The only person who understood it and wasn’t at all outraged was the Irishman himself. He knew that all Irishmen aren’t terrorists but at that time nearly all terrorists in Britian were Irish. Therefore it made sense to him that he was the one to be stopped and questioned. Just a pity the author of this piece isn’t as understanding.

Last edited 10 months ago by Keith Merrick
Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Oh, was that what happened to Floyd? And was that the actual cause? ..or was it not the myriad of similar cases of police brutality all over the US, predominantly against black victims. Nothing like a good whitewash is there? .. and I see 74 more with brush and paint can in hand! I’ve got to hand it to you extreme rightwingers in GB, you do whitewashing better than anyone!

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
10 months ago
Reply to  Marcus Leach

Imprisonment doesn’t work though, because having served jail time is viewed as a rite of passage, and the usual suspects form gangs in prisons terrorising fellow inmates and staff alike.

Marcus Leach
Marcus Leach
10 months ago

“This isn’t to excuse the sort of mass, wanton disregard for the law that we’ve seen of late” – to be followed with pathetic excuses such as boredom, confusion, Boris Johnson’s fixed penalty notice and pandemic trauma.
In one thing I am in agreement with the author: “the real problem here: Britain’s lack of leadership or adult responsibility”. The thing is, his dismissal and pathetic excuse making for black criminality is exactly the lack of leadership and failure to exert adult responsibility he speaks of. Like the weak parent who is always ready with an excuse for their out of control child’s behaviour, and insist they are really a good boy, he and his ilk are the root cause of the problem.
Black fathers deserting their children is not a “stereotype”; it is a fact. These lawless brats probably never received and discipline and moral teaching in the home. They certainly didn’t get it in school, where they were busy getting a chip placed on their shoulders when told how oppressed they were, and how their failure and bad behaviour was the result of “systemic racism”.
No discipline, no moral teaching, brought up on junk culture, let off with slaps on the wrist by the police and courts and with an army of excuse makers like the author – that is where these feral brats come from.
The author invokes moral panics. A career criminal in the USA, with heart disease and Covid, high on a lethal dose of crystal meth and Fentanyl, has a heart attack while resisting arrest. Riots, worldwide protests, the demonisation of the entire white race, the institution of anti-racism training and “decolonisation” and racial discrimination against white people ensue everywhere. I’d say that was the biggest moral panic in history, and at the heart of it was the same failure to place blame where it actually lay, and instead offer pathetic excuses such as “systemic racism” and “white supremacy” to explain why the death by heart attack of a self-overdosed career criminal resisting arrest wasn’t his fault;
As was predictable, the hysterical, misguided response to Floyd’s death has made the lives of law abiding black people worse. Not only are they the primary victims of the increase black crime, but they suffer as a result of association with the criminals. If the author and black people in general stopped defending criminals and instead worked with the police to punish them and drive them out of their communities. we would be on the way to a better future, instead of a further descent in to criminality and social conflict.

Last edited 10 months ago by Marcus Leach
Simon Neale
Simon Neale
10 months ago

“In response, the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, ordered the Met to “hunt down and lock up” the culprits, as though they were the Krays.”

No, as though they were petty semi-organised thugs who use violence to get something for nothing.

Simon Neale
Simon Neale
10 months ago

“In response, the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, ordered the Met to “hunt down and lock up” the culprits, as though they were the Krays.”

No, as though they were petty semi-organised thugs who use violence to get something for nothing.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

…these wayward youths are part of a more complex criminal profile

.

…conspicuous youth crime and deviant behaviour is imbued with media and political capital.

.

Whether it’s Jews, Italians, West Indians, Pakistanis, Somalians, Albanians, Polish plumbers, acid house ravers, radical feminists, Black Lives Matter or Gary Lineker, there’s always some bogeyman hiding in plain sight

.

As Thatcher and Cameron, then Blair and Brown, mortgaged British society, economically and morally, today’s political leaders are squandering what’s left. Riots and looting and recession are their legacy.

… and trope follows trope follows trope.
This piece is little more than intersectionistic propaganda with a scholarly spin – even resorting to that old favourite sneering term left-leanng pundits and creatives like to use when discounting ordinary people’s perfectly rational fear of crime and disorder: Moral Panic!
The intellectual class may experience increasing concern about their pet moral causes (climate change, racism, misogyny, white supremacy, homophobia, islamophobia – you know the drill) but little people’s fears are no more than small-minded panic.

Last edited 10 months ago by N Satori
Martin Smith
Martin Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

I thought the bogeyman man de nos jours was white and male; preferably Russian, or wearing a MAGA hat, or with a liking for roast pork…

Last edited 10 months ago by Martin Smith
Martin Smith
Martin Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

I thought the bogeyman man de nos jours was white and male; preferably Russian, or wearing a MAGA hat, or with a liking for roast pork…

Last edited 10 months ago by Martin Smith
N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago

…these wayward youths are part of a more complex criminal profile

.

…conspicuous youth crime and deviant behaviour is imbued with media and political capital.

.

Whether it’s Jews, Italians, West Indians, Pakistanis, Somalians, Albanians, Polish plumbers, acid house ravers, radical feminists, Black Lives Matter or Gary Lineker, there’s always some bogeyman hiding in plain sight

.

As Thatcher and Cameron, then Blair and Brown, mortgaged British society, economically and morally, today’s political leaders are squandering what’s left. Riots and looting and recession are their legacy.

… and trope follows trope follows trope.
This piece is little more than intersectionistic propaganda with a scholarly spin – even resorting to that old favourite sneering term left-leanng pundits and creatives like to use when discounting ordinary people’s perfectly rational fear of crime and disorder: Moral Panic!
The intellectual class may experience increasing concern about their pet moral causes (climate change, racism, misogyny, white supremacy, homophobia, islamophobia – you know the drill) but little people’s fears are no more than small-minded panic.

Last edited 10 months ago by N Satori
nigel roberts
nigel roberts
10 months ago

Was this written by Grauniad AI?

Kathleen Burnett
Kathleen Burnett
10 months ago
Reply to  nigel roberts

I’d guessed it was lifted straight from Vice. It follows the well travelled narrative of ‘Critical Theory’; of an author concreted to his dogma. What a contrast with the articles of Mary and Kathleen.

Kathleen Burnett
Kathleen Burnett
10 months ago
Reply to  nigel roberts

I’d guessed it was lifted straight from Vice. It follows the well travelled narrative of ‘Critical Theory’; of an author concreted to his dogma. What a contrast with the articles of Mary and Kathleen.

nigel roberts
nigel roberts
10 months ago

Was this written by Grauniad AI?

Peter B
Peter B
10 months ago

Garbage. There is no moral panic. Nor any need for any.
It’s crime. In fact, it’s organised and pre-meditated crime. There’s no excuse. All we need to do is enforce the laws we already have to deal with this.
It is a sick and declining culture that tolerates and excuses this sort of behaviour.

Peter B
Peter B
10 months ago

Garbage. There is no moral panic. Nor any need for any.
It’s crime. In fact, it’s organised and pre-meditated crime. There’s no excuse. All we need to do is enforce the laws we already have to deal with this.
It is a sick and declining culture that tolerates and excuses this sort of behaviour.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago

Was this load of gunk written by the Champagne Socialist?
“pandemic-traumatised young people”
most young people don’t put on balaclavas and descend on Oxford Street (potentially armed) to assault and loot though. Thus, your literary device renders pointless.
I bet you blame the weekly stabbings events on the “pandemic-trauma” too. asinine

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

I reckon I may have been traumatised by commuting and open plan offices, but no matter

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

I reckon I may have been traumatised by commuting and open plan offices, but no matter

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago

Was this load of gunk written by the Champagne Socialist?
“pandemic-traumatised young people”
most young people don’t put on balaclavas and descend on Oxford Street (potentially armed) to assault and loot though. Thus, your literary device renders pointless.
I bet you blame the weekly stabbings events on the “pandemic-trauma” too. asinine

John Walsh
John Walsh
10 months ago

I thought that this was a Guardian article as well.Is Unherd becoming like GBNews and insisting on having token lefties?The whole mainstream media is woke.That is where an article like this belongs.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago
Reply to  John Walsh

I believe it is Ofcom that presses GBNews to include those lefties. Apparently non-left wing opinion must be challenged in any TV discussion lest the public be led astray. As if we weren’t fed a daily diet of the left-liberal worldview via our wise and paternal MSM.

Stuart Sutherland
Stuart Sutherland
10 months ago
Reply to  John Walsh

Balanced reporting only comes from hearing both sides!

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago

Agree, problem is the increasingly more radical mainstream outlets now operate in lockstep to promote one agenda and either ignore or viciously go after anyone who questions it. It’s absolutely nauseating how MSNBC, CNN, Vox, NYT, LAT et al. are carrying the Democratic party’s water. This is coming from a former loyal supporter if the party.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago

Agree, problem is the increasingly more radical mainstream outlets now operate in lockstep to promote one agenda and either ignore or viciously go after anyone who questions it. It’s absolutely nauseating how MSNBC, CNN, Vox, NYT, LAT et al. are carrying the Democratic party’s water. This is coming from a former loyal supporter if the party.

N Satori
N Satori
10 months ago
Reply to  John Walsh

I believe it is Ofcom that presses GBNews to include those lefties. Apparently non-left wing opinion must be challenged in any TV discussion lest the public be led astray. As if we weren’t fed a daily diet of the left-liberal worldview via our wise and paternal MSM.

Stuart Sutherland
Stuart Sutherland
10 months ago
Reply to  John Walsh

Balanced reporting only comes from hearing both sides!

John Walsh
John Walsh
10 months ago

I thought that this was a Guardian article as well.Is Unherd becoming like GBNews and insisting on having token lefties?The whole mainstream media is woke.That is where an article like this belongs.

Graeme
Graeme
10 months ago

“This isn’t to excuse the sort of mass, wanton disregard for the law that we’ve seen of late.”
Strange, because your first three paragraphs seem intent on doing just that.

Graeme
Graeme
10 months ago

“This isn’t to excuse the sort of mass, wanton disregard for the law that we’ve seen of late.”
Strange, because your first three paragraphs seem intent on doing just that.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago

“witness the real conditions people are living under.”
The implication being that its all the fault of if those evil Tories, and the society that provides those youths with free schooling, healthcare, benefits…
I once stayed in a building with a large numbers of Indian IT workers. Mostly brought up India by low to middle income families. If you entered their houses in the evening, every one has a father in the house, every child was busy studying. Most of them had hardly any vacations or luxuries, the flats were tiny.
None of those kids ended up looting due to their “real conditions”.
You know how tough it is to get into grammar schools? The majority of those kids got into one.

Get real, and stop defending the behaviour of young people from communities with terrible cultures.

“not least because too many of their own (prime) ministers have been on the wrong side of the police.”
I would rather have a scumbag law breaker as PM who does a great job of managing the country, rather than the other way round
Boris did a much better job of refusing to follow lockdown diktats in Xmas 2021, and of the vaccine process, than many of his peers. And he at least somewhat pretended to accept the Brexit referendum, unlike most of Britain’s elite class.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You’ve got your brexit mate – you should be celebrating! Loud huzzahs ha ha

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

No. We got what I always said we’d get, if the vote somehow went the ‘wrong’ way and the plebs voted Leave: an empty cardboard box, labelled Brexit – and otherwise, business as usual.
I got it wrong. No ‘business as usual’ at all. The Remain cartel still running UKania seized the opportunity to look at the mass immigration that to a large extent drove the Leave vote – and then TRIPLE it.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

No. We got what I always said we’d get, if the vote somehow went the ‘wrong’ way and the plebs voted Leave: an empty cardboard box, labelled Brexit – and otherwise, business as usual.
I got it wrong. No ‘business as usual’ at all. The Remain cartel still running UKania seized the opportunity to look at the mass immigration that to a large extent drove the Leave vote – and then TRIPLE it.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

You’ve got your brexit mate – you should be celebrating! Loud huzzahs ha ha

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
10 months ago

“witness the real conditions people are living under.”
The implication being that its all the fault of if those evil Tories, and the society that provides those youths with free schooling, healthcare, benefits…
I once stayed in a building with a large numbers of Indian IT workers. Mostly brought up India by low to middle income families. If you entered their houses in the evening, every one has a father in the house, every child was busy studying. Most of them had hardly any vacations or luxuries, the flats were tiny.
None of those kids ended up looting due to their “real conditions”.
You know how tough it is to get into grammar schools? The majority of those kids got into one.

Get real, and stop defending the behaviour of young people from communities with terrible cultures.

“not least because too many of their own (prime) ministers have been on the wrong side of the police.”
I would rather have a scumbag law breaker as PM who does a great job of managing the country, rather than the other way round
Boris did a much better job of refusing to follow lockdown diktats in Xmas 2021, and of the vaccine process, than many of his peers. And he at least somewhat pretended to accept the Brexit referendum, unlike most of Britain’s elite class.

harry storm
harry storm
10 months ago

What a bunch of strung-togethet rot.

harry storm
harry storm
10 months ago

What a bunch of strung-togethet rot.

Samuel Gee
Samuel Gee
10 months ago

“A moral panic” is usually a term relating to an unjustified concern over morality. This was not a panic, it was a justified concern that organized mobs were robbing stores by force of numbers.

Samuel Gee
Samuel Gee
10 months ago

“A moral panic” is usually a term relating to an unjustified concern over morality. This was not a panic, it was a justified concern that organized mobs were robbing stores by force of numbers.

Steven Targett
Steven Targett
10 months ago

How about individuals actually taking responsibility for their own behaviour and for raising their children as opposed to producing feral humanoids.?

Mark F
Mark F
10 months ago
Reply to  Steven Targett

The trouble is Steve that these feral humanoids were produced by a feral humanoid and will go on to produce feral humanoids of their own!

Mark F
Mark F
10 months ago
Reply to  Steven Targett

The trouble is Steve that these feral humanoids were produced by a feral humanoid and will go on to produce feral humanoids of their own!

Steven Targett
Steven Targett
10 months ago

How about individuals actually taking responsibility for their own behaviour and for raising their children as opposed to producing feral humanoids.?

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
10 months ago

This must be some joke article. Looting, like graffitti, is a leading indicator of societal destruction. The “broken windows” approach in community safety works – little forms of disorder lead to larger forms of disorder and crime. In the US, we have terrible problems with looting and shoplifting, to the point where many stores need to lock EVERYTHING up. The use of social media to coordinate looting mobs is more and more common.

It is time for a panic. This needs to stop. We all pay for looting.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Thompson
Martin Butler
Martin Butler
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

Because the US from over here is broken society. Off the scale inequality, mass homeless in the big cities, controlled by a plutocratic elite, ‘homicide’ rate and gun crime massively higher than European levels, a narcissistic criminal as a serious contender for president, an out of control drug problem, and so on

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

We are indeed a broken society, but the issues you raise exist predominately in leftist strongholds.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Joe Biden is President already. Martin. Officially, anyway.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

We are indeed a broken society, but the issues you raise exist predominately in leftist strongholds.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago
Reply to  Martin Butler

Joe Biden is President already. Martin. Officially, anyway.

Martin Butler
Martin Butler
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Thompson

Because the US from over here is broken society. Off the scale inequality, mass homeless in the big cities, controlled by a plutocratic elite, ‘homicide’ rate and gun crime massively higher than European levels, a narcissistic criminal as a serious contender for president, an out of control drug problem, and so on

Paul Thompson
Paul Thompson
10 months ago

This must be some joke article. Looting, like graffitti, is a leading indicator of societal destruction. The “broken windows” approach in community safety works – little forms of disorder lead to larger forms of disorder and crime. In the US, we have terrible problems with looting and shoplifting, to the point where many stores need to lock EVERYTHING up. The use of social media to coordinate looting mobs is more and more common.

It is time for a panic. This needs to stop. We all pay for looting.

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Thompson
Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
10 months ago

No matter how obvious the criminality, there is always some liberal around to minimize the problem, excuse the criminals, and accuse the ordinary people being victimized of being the real cause of the problem anyway. Today’s example.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Amen. It’s as if having a preference for a civil life, law and order, punctuality and correct math is somehow racist.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
10 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

Amen. It’s as if having a preference for a civil life, law and order, punctuality and correct math is somehow racist.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
10 months ago

No matter how obvious the criminality, there is always some liberal around to minimize the problem, excuse the criminals, and accuse the ordinary people being victimized of being the real cause of the problem anyway. Today’s example.

Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
10 months ago

Water cannon would stop anything like this. Why not?

Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
10 months ago

Water cannon would stop anything like this. Why not?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago

“Moral panic”? What the h*ll?! Living in a sh*tty neighborhood is absolutely no excuse for rioting and looting. These kids aren’t Jean Valjean stealing bread to survive, they’re savage, greedy punks in packs. Government is not responsible for raising these creatures. Children in strong families of every socioeconomic level don’t commit these crimes. “Hear me out”. Yeah, even you know what you’re saying is bullsh*t.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
10 months ago

“Moral panic”? What the h*ll?! Living in a sh*tty neighborhood is absolutely no excuse for rioting and looting. These kids aren’t Jean Valjean stealing bread to survive, they’re savage, greedy punks in packs. Government is not responsible for raising these creatures. Children in strong families of every socioeconomic level don’t commit these crimes. “Hear me out”. Yeah, even you know what you’re saying is bullsh*t.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
10 months ago

I think about this in exactly the way I think about what’s going on in France: 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
On the one hand, the UK is being led by politicians who are – taking an optimistic perspective – third rate. Completely feckless, unable to solve any problems or conduct any discussion without resorting to unseemly screeching (Braverman is excellent at this – even if I agree with the basic thrust of some of her opinions, I wish she would be less shrill) or reciprocal blame-lobbing. It is completely obvious that their authority is going to erode.
In the same way, I don’t think that the French establishment is blameless. I don’t think the police have always acted in an acceptable fashion and they have been ill-equipped and under-resourced by the state which makes them frustrated and more likely to act badly. Which undermines respect among the people who are subject to their (waning) authority.
On the other hand – it is entirely possible for young people to pull themselves together and decide to be better than their superiors. Bad behaviour like looting cannot be excused by pointing the finger at the hated establishment. That argument ignores the fact that young people do have agency to think for themselves and form their own identities – independently of whatever is going on on the political level. No country can improve if self responsibility is denied on such a widespread level and that denial is ingrained into young people from an early age. The author seems to be going in this direction at the end of the article, but unfortunately didn’t expand on the thought.

Last edited 10 months ago by Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
10 months ago

I think about this in exactly the way I think about what’s going on in France: 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
On the one hand, the UK is being led by politicians who are – taking an optimistic perspective – third rate. Completely feckless, unable to solve any problems or conduct any discussion without resorting to unseemly screeching (Braverman is excellent at this – even if I agree with the basic thrust of some of her opinions, I wish she would be less shrill) or reciprocal blame-lobbing. It is completely obvious that their authority is going to erode.
In the same way, I don’t think that the French establishment is blameless. I don’t think the police have always acted in an acceptable fashion and they have been ill-equipped and under-resourced by the state which makes them frustrated and more likely to act badly. Which undermines respect among the people who are subject to their (waning) authority.
On the other hand – it is entirely possible for young people to pull themselves together and decide to be better than their superiors. Bad behaviour like looting cannot be excused by pointing the finger at the hated establishment. That argument ignores the fact that young people do have agency to think for themselves and form their own identities – independently of whatever is going on on the political level. No country can improve if self responsibility is denied on such a widespread level and that denial is ingrained into young people from an early age. The author seems to be going in this direction at the end of the article, but unfortunately didn’t expand on the thought.

Last edited 10 months ago by Katharine Eyre
Doug Bodde
Doug Bodde
10 months ago

Leadership and adult responsibility are exactly what fathers provide.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Doug Bodde

Yes – you can’t just dismiss absent Dads – they’re a huge part of the problem. Single mums can’t rear boys.  

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
10 months ago
Reply to  Doug Bodde

Yes – you can’t just dismiss absent Dads – they’re a huge part of the problem. Single mums can’t rear boys.  

Doug Bodde
Doug Bodde
10 months ago

Leadership and adult responsibility are exactly what fathers provide.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago

The media will cover the looting of big corporate stores in Oxford Street. Corporates that will reclaim the losses from their insurers and mark the cost of insurance and security into their inflated prices. However the real victims of this rise of robberies are small businesses with low turnovers that cannot afford security. A family member works in a supermarket along the south coast with no security and a secluded location. Large amounts of alcohol are regularly lifted (by white men) threatening the financial viability of the supermarket and the jobs of those working there. The permitted rise in shoplifting is probably part of the plan to ‘consolidate’ the British economy into cartels, which will fund ‘corporate’ Labour as well as the Conservative Party.
We are also seeing the result of the police’s refusal to treat burglary of residential properties as a crime. The public has no confidence in the police amid scandals such as GMP failing to record a quarter of reported crimes and the arrest of easy targets for non-criminal hate incidents, not to mention the continuing employment of criminals by the Met.
The next step will be public indifference to both the losses suffered by large corporates and the injuring and murder of police officers when the police and political establishment finally have to confront the rise in violent crime.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago

‘The permitted rise in shoplifting is probably part of the plan to ‘consolidate’ the British economy into cartels, which will fund ‘corporate’ Labour as well as the Conservative Party.’
So, no conspiracy theories here then.
‘Large amounts of alcohol are regularly lifted (by white men)’
Ah, of course. It’s white men who are to blame.
‘Corporates that will reclaim the losses from their insurers and mark the cost of insurance and security into their inflated prices.’
Yeah, those greedy corporates actively WANT to be robbed so they can charge us more to recoup their losses. And then customers go elsewhere because it’s too expensive here…Oh hang on, something there’s not quite right…

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago

‘The permitted rise in shoplifting is probably part of the plan to ‘consolidate’ the British economy into cartels, which will fund ‘corporate’ Labour as well as the Conservative Party.’
So, no conspiracy theories here then.
‘Large amounts of alcohol are regularly lifted (by white men)’
Ah, of course. It’s white men who are to blame.
‘Corporates that will reclaim the losses from their insurers and mark the cost of insurance and security into their inflated prices.’
Yeah, those greedy corporates actively WANT to be robbed so they can charge us more to recoup their losses. And then customers go elsewhere because it’s too expensive here…Oh hang on, something there’s not quite right…

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
10 months ago

The media will cover the looting of big corporate stores in Oxford Street. Corporates that will reclaim the losses from their insurers and mark the cost of insurance and security into their inflated prices. However the real victims of this rise of robberies are small businesses with low turnovers that cannot afford security. A family member works in a supermarket along the south coast with no security and a secluded location. Large amounts of alcohol are regularly lifted (by white men) threatening the financial viability of the supermarket and the jobs of those working there. The permitted rise in shoplifting is probably part of the plan to ‘consolidate’ the British economy into cartels, which will fund ‘corporate’ Labour as well as the Conservative Party.
We are also seeing the result of the police’s refusal to treat burglary of residential properties as a crime. The public has no confidence in the police amid scandals such as GMP failing to record a quarter of reported crimes and the arrest of easy targets for non-criminal hate incidents, not to mention the continuing employment of criminals by the Met.
The next step will be public indifference to both the losses suffered by large corporates and the injuring and murder of police officers when the police and political establishment finally have to confront the rise in violent crime.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
10 months ago

I love a ‘moral panic’; it gives me a chance to ‘clutch my pearls’.

Martin Smith
Martin Smith
10 months ago

I love a ‘moral panic’; it gives me a chance to ‘clutch my pearls’.

Robert Hochbaum
Robert Hochbaum
10 months ago

“Hear me out.”
No.
I read it anyway and am even more committed to the correctness of my initial impression of the article.

Robert Hochbaum
Robert Hochbaum
10 months ago

“Hear me out.”
No.
I read it anyway and am even more committed to the correctness of my initial impression of the article.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago

Note to self: no need to add David Matthews to reading list.

Keith Merrick
Keith Merrick
10 months ago

Note to self: no need to add David Matthews to reading list.

Oliver Gover
Oliver Gover
10 months ago

Any criticism of any action is a moral panic, innit?

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago
Reply to  Oliver Gover

Depends what group of people are involved in the action.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago
Reply to  Oliver Gover

Depends what group of people are involved in the action.

Oliver Gover
Oliver Gover
10 months ago

Any criticism of any action is a moral panic, innit?

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
10 months ago

How long until the caliphate of Britanistan is declared? Not good news for females of course, but at least Sharia law will put an end to mayhem. Lots of POC will have to learn to tie their shoes with one hand, too.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
10 months ago

How long until the caliphate of Britanistan is declared? Not good news for females of course, but at least Sharia law will put an end to mayhem. Lots of POC will have to learn to tie their shoes with one hand, too.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
10 months ago

Crime is criminal!

Caroline Ayers
Caroline Ayers
10 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

This is a new phenomenon simply enabled by Tik Tok and other social media. The key factor is shown in the extracts from the looters’ messaging – inspired by looting in the US, UK criminals (or feckless youth) have realised that it’s difficult for the police to stop a flash mob of looting organised via social media. So it’s entirely correct for the government’s response to be to support and instruct the police to find every single looter and prosecute them, so that the would-be looters discover that this sort of behaviour is not worth it. The government’s response is an entirely correct attempt to nip this new phenomenon in the bud. What we absolutely do not need is people like this author basically excusing the looters’ behaviour and thereby encouraging more looting. That way lies madness and the breakdown of civil society.

Caroline Ayers
Caroline Ayers
10 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

This is a new phenomenon simply enabled by Tik Tok and other social media. The key factor is shown in the extracts from the looters’ messaging – inspired by looting in the US, UK criminals (or feckless youth) have realised that it’s difficult for the police to stop a flash mob of looting organised via social media. So it’s entirely correct for the government’s response to be to support and instruct the police to find every single looter and prosecute them, so that the would-be looters discover that this sort of behaviour is not worth it. The government’s response is an entirely correct attempt to nip this new phenomenon in the bud. What we absolutely do not need is people like this author basically excusing the looters’ behaviour and thereby encouraging more looting. That way lies madness and the breakdown of civil society.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
10 months ago

Crime is criminal!

Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
10 months ago

How then to explain the lower levels of criminality during the Depression of the 1930s? It seems that the one thing that must not be blamed is the criminals lack of morality. The new philosophy seems to be that individuals have full entitlement, but no duties.

Alan Hawkes
Alan Hawkes
10 months ago

How then to explain the lower levels of criminality during the Depression of the 1930s? It seems that the one thing that must not be blamed is the criminals lack of morality. The new philosophy seems to be that individuals have full entitlement, but no duties.

SIMON WOLF
SIMON WOLF
10 months ago

If a computer made a comparison of opportunities for young people living in London or in the centre of other big cities compared to young people in many small towns or rural areas then i am confident that computer would state the former are far more priviliged in terms of range of educational courses,health facilities or recreational choices.And maybe if the political classes tried to tell many young people living in UK cities that most of them are not victims but people who have priviliges that many others dream of including all the migrants trying to get in Britain.Most migrants want to live in UK cities not left behind provincial Britain

SIMON WOLF
SIMON WOLF
10 months ago

If a computer made a comparison of opportunities for young people living in London or in the centre of other big cities compared to young people in many small towns or rural areas then i am confident that computer would state the former are far more priviliged in terms of range of educational courses,health facilities or recreational choices.And maybe if the political classes tried to tell many young people living in UK cities that most of them are not victims but people who have priviliges that many others dream of including all the migrants trying to get in Britain.Most migrants want to live in UK cities not left behind provincial Britain

Carl Pollington
Carl Pollington
10 months ago

Southend is not a town, as the article asserts, it’s a city. Its status as a city was recently expedited by the MP being stabbed to death in his own surgery.

Carl Pollington
Carl Pollington
10 months ago

Southend is not a town, as the article asserts, it’s a city. Its status as a city was recently expedited by the MP being stabbed to death in his own surgery.

Mark Turner
Mark Turner
10 months ago

I am fed up of reading pseudo intellectual or BLM excuses for what is basically a cultural behaviour by a significant proportion of young black society. It’s not our fault for being so nasty and racist to them, that’s just the way they are, witness anywhere else in the world…. Cultural enrichment!!!
Marcus Leach has it bang on…..

Last edited 10 months ago by Mark Turner
Mark Turner
Mark Turner
10 months ago

I am fed up of reading pseudo intellectual or BLM excuses for what is basically a cultural behaviour by a significant proportion of young black society. It’s not our fault for being so nasty and racist to them, that’s just the way they are, witness anywhere else in the world…. Cultural enrichment!!!
Marcus Leach has it bang on…..

Last edited 10 months ago by Mark Turner
Terry Raby
Terry Raby
10 months ago

In a word, no homework implies lack of “opportunity, prospects and hope”. Strict schooling gives the kids an alternative vision of life that they may not find at home. Solutions are known – naturaly the author has nothing to say about improving these lives.

Terry Raby
Terry Raby
10 months ago

In a word, no homework implies lack of “opportunity, prospects and hope”. Strict schooling gives the kids an alternative vision of life that they may not find at home. Solutions are known – naturaly the author has nothing to say about improving these lives.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
10 months ago

I watch a lot of true crime TV, and I have considerable difficulty believing anything that happens in Europe is comparable to the level of violence in American cities. American cities are violent and scary, and American police forces are militarized because they have to be just to properly be prepared for what they routinely face. They buy military vehicles because they legitimately need them, not often, but enough to justify the expense. The average American, even in the remotest countryside, chuckles at the notion of unarmed officers. The only kind of unarmed officers here are private security guards, though a lot of them are armed too, and the meter maids who write parking tickets, but again, depending on the jurisdiction, they might be armed too. If anything that happened in London were comparable to what happens in Chicago, New York, LA, or Philadelphia on a daily basis, you’d have armed your cops to the teeth long ago and wonder how an unarmed police force could function at all. Terrorist attacks are the closest analog, and we get comparable scenarios from ordinary criminals on a fairly regular basis. I watched something the other day where a murderer had taken several hostages inside a home and had to be shot by a police sniper. Crime is so prevalent here that we have a live action COPS. The cameras are placed with a few departments and the hosts simply go to whichever one is responding to a crime, and there’s enough crime that there’s never a dull moment. Given all this, it’s understandable why your journalists invoke ‘the violence of American cities’. Our reality is pretty scary. A bit of perspective from an American cousin.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Speaking as a fellow American, you’ve got it absolutely right.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Speaking as a fellow American, you’ve got it absolutely right.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
10 months ago

I watch a lot of true crime TV, and I have considerable difficulty believing anything that happens in Europe is comparable to the level of violence in American cities. American cities are violent and scary, and American police forces are militarized because they have to be just to properly be prepared for what they routinely face. They buy military vehicles because they legitimately need them, not often, but enough to justify the expense. The average American, even in the remotest countryside, chuckles at the notion of unarmed officers. The only kind of unarmed officers here are private security guards, though a lot of them are armed too, and the meter maids who write parking tickets, but again, depending on the jurisdiction, they might be armed too. If anything that happened in London were comparable to what happens in Chicago, New York, LA, or Philadelphia on a daily basis, you’d have armed your cops to the teeth long ago and wonder how an unarmed police force could function at all. Terrorist attacks are the closest analog, and we get comparable scenarios from ordinary criminals on a fairly regular basis. I watched something the other day where a murderer had taken several hostages inside a home and had to be shot by a police sniper. Crime is so prevalent here that we have a live action COPS. The cameras are placed with a few departments and the hosts simply go to whichever one is responding to a crime, and there’s enough crime that there’s never a dull moment. Given all this, it’s understandable why your journalists invoke ‘the violence of American cities’. Our reality is pretty scary. A bit of perspective from an American cousin.

Alan Gore
Alan Gore
10 months ago

Are organized mobs of feral gang youth sacking Harrods in the same way that they are sacking California’s shopping districts? If so, then it’s not a ‘moral panic’ – it’s more of a real panic.

Alan Gore
Alan Gore
10 months ago

Are organized mobs of feral gang youth sacking Harrods in the same way that they are sacking California’s shopping districts? If so, then it’s not a ‘moral panic’ – it’s more of a real panic.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago

Let’s be honest about this already: the reason for these kind of arguments being made by the far left elites is that they fear the people doing the looting, carjacking, robbing, rioting, etc and have adopted a policy of ‘give them what they want and they’ll leave us alone’, thinking that they’ll be safe in their gated communities with their private security. Appease the mob, expose your weakness.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago

Let’s be honest about this already: the reason for these kind of arguments being made by the far left elites is that they fear the people doing the looting, carjacking, robbing, rioting, etc and have adopted a policy of ‘give them what they want and they’ll leave us alone’, thinking that they’ll be safe in their gated communities with their private security. Appease the mob, expose your weakness.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
9 months ago

I doubt the rioters read UnHerd, but if they did here would be another leftist adult desperately trying to get ‘down with the yoof’ making truly pathetic excuses for their behaviour. Poor behaviour from some of our leaders (but not actually most of them) doesn’t justify these scum who make ordinary – yes actually hard working peoples’ lives a misery. The vast majority of young people of all races do not actually behave like this either – let’s be on their side for a change

The West is so pathetically weak. This would be crushed in a moment by many far better run states, Singapore springs to mind. It wouldn’t actually need to be crushed, because people would simply know that rioting and looting would exact a heavy retribution.

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
9 months ago

‘….it’s time we also gave our looters and rioters a little more credit.’
‘Ours’, eh? No, David. Yours, maybe. But not mine. Not ours.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

Yet again we’re treated to binary solution: cuddle the wrongdoers orvflog them publicly.. Clearly the answer has to be a combination of carrot and stick. Leadership certainly plays a part but for the next 5 years at least that seems out of reach given the craven politicians on offer.. the only hope will be to fund mote local efforts and pray that a better calibre of leader emerges there. Equally, facilties need to be funded and all kinds of opportunities must replace
today’s hopelessness.
In the meantime, and simultaneously, the law must be upheld and stiff community service sentencing is surely called for.
But there is a 3rd contributor to this upheaval! The obscene salaries, profits and dividends are – correctly in my view – seen as legal theft by the squeezed middle and lower income people and if it’s okay for the rich to steal billions from them then it must be okay, morally and every other way for those victims to steal back what was taken from them. The transfer of wealth from the lower 80% to the top 1% is irrefutable evidence of that. Unless that is corrected ASAP GB can look forward to more, much more of the same.

Liam O'Mahony
Liam O'Mahony
10 months ago

Yet again we’re treated to binary solution: cuddle the wrongdoers orvflog them publicly.. Clearly the answer has to be a combination of carrot and stick. Leadership certainly plays a part but for the next 5 years at least that seems out of reach given the craven politicians on offer.. the only hope will be to fund mote local efforts and pray that a better calibre of leader emerges there. Equally, facilties need to be funded and all kinds of opportunities must replace
today’s hopelessness.
In the meantime, and simultaneously, the law must be upheld and stiff community service sentencing is surely called for.
But there is a 3rd contributor to this upheaval! The obscene salaries, profits and dividends are – correctly in my view – seen as legal theft by the squeezed middle and lower income people and if it’s okay for the rich to steal billions from them then it must be okay, morally and every other way for those victims to steal back what was taken from them. The transfer of wealth from the lower 80% to the top 1% is irrefutable evidence of that. Unless that is corrected ASAP GB can look forward to more, much more of the same.

David
David
10 months ago

Hahahahaha
 I can practically smell the halitosis coming from all the dribbling reactionary gobs in this thread.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

So how much stuff did you steal?

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Apart from your heart?

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

I haven’t got one.
So, how much stuff did you steal?

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I doubt as much as you’ve fiddled.

Last edited 10 months ago by David
David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I doubt as much as you’ve fiddled.

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I doubt as much as you’ve fiddled.

Last edited 10 months ago by David
David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

I doubt as much as you’ve fiddled.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

I haven’t got one.
So, how much stuff did you steal?

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Apart from your heart?

John Tyler
John Tyler
10 months ago
Reply to  David

The epitome of the well-reasoned argument!

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  John Tyler

Thank you!

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  John Tyler

Thank you!

Kathleen Burnett
Kathleen Burnett
10 months ago
Reply to  David

If you are the author of this article, and Unherd are happy with that level of comment, then I’ll be looking elsewhere for grown-up discussion.

David
David
10 months ago

Don’t forget to shut the door on the way out. Cheers.

David
David
10 months ago

Don’t forget to shut the door on the way out. Cheers.

Robbie K
Robbie K
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Yup, seems the article got the reaction intended. Nothing like a bit of whitey race baiting eh? That inferiority complex must run deep.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago
Reply to  David

it might well be but at least we know who our fathers are

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

Don’t give up the day job.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

At least he’s got one.

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

See above.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Still digging that hole.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Still digging that hole.

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  polidori redux

See above.

polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

At least he’s got one.

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

Don’t give up the day job.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Hallo, Champagne Socialist. Did you forget to change your avatar?

Last edited 10 months ago by Julian Farrows
David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

That’s sweet. Send me your name and address and I’ll send you a signed profile pic and a copy of my critically acclaimed bestseller, True Blue: Strange Tales from a Tory Nation.

Last edited 10 months ago by David
Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Not exactly making your case with those idiotic, infantile comments of yours.

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

When in Rome


David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

When in Rome


Studio Largo
Studio Largo
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Not exactly making your case with those idiotic, infantile comments of yours.

David
David
10 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

That’s sweet. Send me your name and address and I’ll send you a signed profile pic and a copy of my critically acclaimed bestseller, True Blue: Strange Tales from a Tory Nation.

Last edited 10 months ago by David
polidori redux
polidori redux
10 months ago
Reply to  David

So how much stuff did you steal?

John Tyler
John Tyler
10 months ago
Reply to  David

The epitome of the well-reasoned argument!

Kathleen Burnett
Kathleen Burnett
10 months ago
Reply to  David

If you are the author of this article, and Unherd are happy with that level of comment, then I’ll be looking elsewhere for grown-up discussion.

Robbie K
Robbie K
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Yup, seems the article got the reaction intended. Nothing like a bit of whitey race baiting eh? That inferiority complex must run deep.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
10 months ago
Reply to  David

it might well be but at least we know who our fathers are

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
10 months ago
Reply to  David

Hallo, Champagne Socialist. Did you forget to change your avatar?

Last edited 10 months ago by Julian Farrows
David
David
10 months ago

Hahahahaha
 I can practically smell the halitosis coming from all the dribbling reactionary gobs in this thread.