X Close

The cruelty of Canada’s euthanasia policy Maid has been turned into a political weapon

'Canada’s lax protocols make me queasy.' Credit: Amour

'Canada’s lax protocols make me queasy.' Credit: Amour


August 21, 2023   9 mins

With uncharacteristic humility, I would concede that a few positions I’ve argued fiercely in print might be viable on paper, but in practice are a disaster. The “war on drugs” being a fiasco, years ago I advocated the legalisation of recreational pharmaceuticals. But given the dirty, dangerous, dismal tent cities full of addicts in LA, San Francisco, Seattle, and Portland — which have all effectively decriminalised drug possession — it may be fortunate that glib journalists like me don’t control public policy.

I’ve likewise argued for legalised assisted dying. After all, nobody asked us if we wanted to be here (a favourite headline: “Woman Sues for Being Born”); the least we might expect is help leaving the building. Why should living be an obligation? While the strongest candidates for a gentle, legal assisted death are patients with agonising terminal illnesses, any respectable libertarian would maintain that outfits such as Dignitas in Switzerland simply provide a service, of which consumers in any medical condition should be free to avail themselves. And for lack of a better word, I’m a libertarian.

I gained an appreciation for how being alive could simply fail a clinical cost-benefit analysis in the summer of 2020. For five days, I was in such blinding pain from a nerve in my spine that I awoke each morning screaming at my poor husband: “I would rather be dead!” I wasn’t being histrionic. Well, okay, I was — but I was also brutally sincere. Had remaining alive been conditioned on such intense and unrelenting suffering forever more, for the first time I could see a persuasive case for calling it quits. During the blackest periods of those days, on which I took half an hour to descend a single flight of stairs, I was incapable of pleasure, humour, or love. The sole thought in my head was that I would do anything to get the pain to stop.

Canada has an unusually liberal programme called Medical Assistance in Dying, or Maid — although this acronym doesn’t tidy your flat but sponges your existence from the known universe. The Great White North should, therefore, represent my perverse version of Valhalla. Instead, Maid’s lax protocols make me queasy. In theory, maybe everyone has a right to die if they want to. In practice, maybe the state needs to keep a tight regulatory reign on whom it graciously provides a one-way ticket to nowhere.

Introduced in 2016, Canada’s government-sanctioned euthanasia by medically administered lethal injection and legalisation of assisted suicide (there’s a difference; the latter usually entails patients themselves swallowing fatal tablets prescribed by a doctor) were initially intended to put the terminally ill who’d had enough out of their misery. Yet sister programmes in the seven other countries that permit euthanasia generally restrict the pool of applicants to people destined to die naturally within six months. Maid initially codified no such limitation, merely citing vaguely that death should be “reasonably foreseeable”, as it is for all us mortals. Hypothetically, then, even the programme as originally conceived could have been open to people whose ailments would only kill them many years hence. Yet, bolstering its critics’ “slippery slope” argument, the programme soon radically loosened its restrictions. Assisted dying is now available in Canada to all adults with a serious illness or disability, regardless of whether the source of their torment would be fatal over time.

Most controversially, the government is considering the offer of lethal injection to “mature minors” — whatever that means. The programme is also set to extend to Canadians who are mentally ill. That said, the start date of state-sponsored death for the psychologically unwell (which on one day or another would probably include us all) has been pushed back to March 2024, indicating a degree of bureaucratic anxiety.

Given the stories in the press, that anxiety may be warranted.

At the age of 61, Alan Nichols had a history of depression and was hospitalised as a suicide risk in 2019 — something of an irony, as in due course the hospital staff, according to his family, was altogether too helpful in facilitating the patient’s application for euthanasia. That application was accepted, even though the only health condition it cited as so intolerable that Nichols wanted to die was “hearing loss”. After Nichols was put to death, his family objected that the man was not suffering unbearably, had been refusing to take his medication, and wouldn’t use the cochlear implant that helped him hear. But no medical personnel had ever contacted his relatives, out of respect for patient confidentiality.

While some Canadian disability advocates are upset that disability alone is now a qualification for euthanasia, arguably sending a social signal that the disabled are a burden and better off dead, Nichols did not nominate himself as a political representative of any group. He was just one person who didn’t want to be here anymore, and if we’re not impressed by his motives, that’s our problem. Whether or not to head for the back door was his decision, his business.

Still — I’m reaching here. Hearing loss? Really?

Suffering from Lou Gehrig’s disease at 41, Sean Tagert required 24-hour care, but British Columbia only provided 16-hour assistance. Paying caretakers for the remaining eight hours cost Tagert CA$264 per day. Health authorities did offer to move Tagert to an institution, but its location was far from the young son who was clearly his father’s prime reason for living, as Tagert described such a separation as a “death sentence”. The man managed to raise CA$16,000 to invest in medical equipment that would allow him to remain at home, but the funds were insufficient. So instead he applied for euthanasia. The end.

All health systems have finite resources, so let’s assume that 16-hour care was all British Columbia could afford. If Tagert couldn’t manage on that support, we wouldn’t encourage a bureaucracy to give in to blackmail: If you don’t give me 24-hour care, I’ll kill myself. On the other hand, the availability of assisted dying as a solution to his problems must have made it more likely that Tagert would choose death, as opposed to giving institutional care a go and perhaps discovering that seeing his son somewhat less often wasn’t the end of the world. In general, then, legalising assisted dying without fierce limits on who qualifies may increase the likelihood that, rather than find more creative escapes from their predicaments, people give into despair.

In more than one instance in Canada, too, patients seem to have been actively pressed to consider pulling their own plug to save the health system money. Hospitalised for a degenerative brain disorder, Roger Foley was, according to Associated Press, “so alarmed by staffers mentioning euthanasia that he began secretly recording some of their conversations”. In one recording, the hospital’s director of ethics informs Foley that his hospital stay is costing the institution “north of $1,500 a day” — quite the guilt trip. Foley asks about the plan for his long-term care. “Roger, this is not my show,” the “ethicist” said. “My piece of this was to talk to you, to see if you had an interest in assisted dying.” But Foley himself had never expressed the slightest interest in dying.

For while the Australian province of Victoria, for example, forbids doctors from bringing up the option of euthanasia, lest it be mistaken for medical advice, Canada’s physicians can cheerfully recommend being killed as one of patients’ “clinical care options”. Thus, Sheila Elson took her daughter to an emergency room in Newfoundland six years ago. Unprompted, the doctor informed Elson that her daughter of 25, who had cerebral palsy and spinal bifida, was a good candidate for euthanasia. As Elson later told the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the doctor chided that not taking up the state’s kindly offer to slay her daughter would be “selfish”.

Given that they both tattled to the media, Foley and Elson clearly resented being enticed to please consider lethal injection as an economy for the state. But more fragile characters might be less apt to stand up for their rights.

At least four cases have been unearthed of veterans with, say, PTSD being encouraged to consider assisted dying in preference, as one staffer put it diplomatically, to “blowing your brains out”. Maid has been active in prisons as well, whose population is also costly and understandably prone to feeling glum. I wouldn’t melodramatically portray this programme as some wicked Final Solution for castoffs and criminals, but there’s more than a hint here of the brutal social utilitarianism that horrified Captain Kirk in more than one episode of Star Trek.

The woman who has most alarmed critics of Maid’s prospective extension to the mentally ill is Lisa Pauli, who is queueing up for assisted dying months in advance. At 47, Pauli has been anorexic for the better part of 40 years and now holds out no hope of defeating the disorder. She weighs 92 pounds and goes days without solid food. Pauli’s psychiatrist assures her that once the law in Canada becomes more encompassing next year, she’ll probably be eligible for assisted dying. Yet it takes one look at Lisa Pauli’s picture to conclude that she doesn’t need a lethal injection. She needs a sandwich.

Maid is popular in Canada. In a recent Research Co. poll, 73% of Canadians approved of the regime in its current form, while only 16% opposed it. Moreover, a goodly measure of Canadians would be happy for the programme to expand further: 27% claimed Maid should be an option even for people whose only affliction was “poverty”; 28% would offer state-sponsored oblivion to the homeless. A fifth of respondents would provide Maid to anybody for any reason. Sean Tagert’s was one of several cases of Canadians finally choosing death after years of struggling to obtain sufficient health care, and a hefty 51% of poll respondents believed that “inability to receive medical treatment” should qualify applicants for the needle.

I wonder if these Canadians are exercising their imaginations. For governments, citizens are an annoyance. Is it really in the broader interest of us peons to make it too easy for the authorities to simply dispose of us, rather than contend with our messy, expensive problems? Keep loosening the restrictions on such programmes, and pretty soon it’s only so fanciful to envision California cleaning up its tented encampments of homeless alcoholics and drug addicts by sending Swat teams marching through the cardboard and corrugated iron with sub-machine guns.

As for qualifying for euthanasia by dint of mental illness, psychic afflictions are still poorly understood and poorly defined. Because the portion of the population claiming to have mental health problems continues to rise, this is surely the gateway to offering the ultimate cure for human suffering to everybody. Although all pain is subjective, the physical kind usually has an objective correlative. In 2020, I could have shown you on an MRI exactly what was wrong with my back. Mental pain, though, is heavily dependent on self-reporting, so that assessing its severity from the outside is almost impossible.

While Maid guidelines stipulate that whatever drives a candidate to seek a last resort should be incurable, it’s also impossible to tell whether mental problems are temporary or intransigent. In fact, one of the major concerns of too-ready access to assisted dying is that people are moody, fickle, and changeable. One day, one month, or even one year, our outlook can be unbearably bleak, and the challenges of the future can appear insurmountable. But fortunes and frames of mind can pick up, clouds lift: we get a new job, fall in love, finally put a bereavement behind us, after which the prospect of asking to die may strike us as preposterous. Many a failed suicide has been grateful in retrospect for having botched the job.

What’s especially puzzling about Canada, of all places, having such loose restrictions on assisted dying is that Justin Trudeau’s government is famously — I would say notoriously — Left-wing. It’s the Left that traditionally prides itself on concern for the “vulnerable” (a ubiquitous catch-all adjective I’ve come to detest). We would expect Canadian worthies to be out on the streets protesting the state’s offer of nonexistence to the incapacitated, the incarcerated, the addled, or the down at the heel, and instead a slim majority of the country seems to see assisted dying as an answer to the shortcomings of their healthcare system. In a way, I’m impressed. I didn’t think those wet Canadians capable of such cool, callous calculation.

To be fair, the average age of Canadians euthanised by Maid in 2021 was 76; 80% had already been in palliative care, and 65% had cancer. In majority, the regime continues to serve the patients it was originally designed to help: people in searing physical pain who are certain to die soon anyway.

I come full circle, then. I still believe in legal assisted dying. After that experience of paralysing nerve pain — which has blessedly not returned — I would even endorse extending such a service to people in non-fatal agony if such life-despoiling torture is chronic and physicians can offer no effective relief. But that’s where I’d draw the line, and I’d hold the line: relieving people of physical pain, for which I have developed a sober respect.

Ironically, the very liberality of Canada’s system has turned it into a political weapon for opponents of kindred programmes proposed in countries such as Britain, where the practice of assisted dying is still banned. But there’s no reason a state that allows what used to be called “mercy killing” under strictly defined circumstances necessarily slides down that hackneyed slippery slope and starts slaughtering every citizen whom someone considers inconvenient or costly. A well-designed protocol should require a waiting period and make it easy for clients to change their minds. Knowing they have the option of an ultimate exit gives many people the fortitude to keep going.

If I would not offer legal euthanasia to anorexics, people with hearing loss, or depressives, much less to the poor or homeless, let’s remember what’s at issue: not whether the state forces you to keep living but whether the state actively helps you die. For any folks bound and determined to not be here anymore, a range of old-fashioned if unpleasant remedies remain at hand. If that disagreeableness presents enough of a barrier to get you to reconsider, maybe you’re still up for continuing to kick around the planet after all.


Lionel Shriver is an author, journalist and columnist for The Spectator. Her new book, Mania, is published by the Borough Press.


Join the discussion


Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber


To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.

Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.

Subscribe
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

273 Comments
Most Voted
Newest Oldest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago

It turns out that obscure philosophical arguments are actually pretty important. The horrors of the 20th century taught a great many people that.
In philosophical terms, either human life is an unalloyed good or it is not. If something is truly good, then intentionally ending it is bad. If something is only good under certain conditions, then we must perform a cost-benefit analysis to determine whether ending it is good or bad. Please note I am not saying that human life is always “pleasurable”, but “good” and “pleasurable” are very different things.
Human life is always good. So what do we do about a human life that is truly agony: untreatable cancer or late stage muscular dystrophy? This is a problem that philosophers and theologians have wrestled with for millennia, and the Church (specifically Catholic and Orthodox) have very solid teaching on the subject. The Church has historically taught that intentionally killing is murder, but a death which occurs incidental to an attempt to prevent suffering is not. This teaching is ancient, and was used for centuries by doctors. A member of my own family met his end this way, via morphine given specifically to ensure he would feel no pain. It is intentionality that brings moral culpability, a concept that is also recognized in criminal law.
However, when the postmodernists abandoned 2500 years of philosophy and theology, they lost all of that. So for them, ending a human life is a cost-benefit analysis and thus always a subjective endeavor. Was the prior system perfect? Absolutely not! But it erred on the side of life instead of on the side of death, and erring toward death appears to be a very slippery slope indeed.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
8 months ago

Indeed. This is exactly the kind of issue that would keep the Church relevant, and on which they could show moral leadership, or at least be a counterweight to more utilitarian approaches.

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

The church is a tool whose raison d’etre has disappeared, like the spokeshave. They only exist as a small arm for the far left. They will go to any length to preserve their business model, including defending child abuse and rape. To quote the sadly underrated thinker Noel Gallagher they are men “with a fork in a world of soup”

Last edited 8 months ago by mike otter
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

I am a member of Christ’s Church. I am a pastor in Christ’s Church. Why do you tar me with the same brush as those who know nothing of Christ?

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Or any reasonable people either.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Or any reasonable people either.

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

A very balanced point of view. Not.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

I am a member of Christ’s Church. I am a pastor in Christ’s Church. Why do you tar me with the same brush as those who know nothing of Christ?

Mangle Tangle
Mangle Tangle
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

A very balanced point of view. Not.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

It depends entirely on what you mean by ‘the church’. As a senior pastor within independent congregations I have stood outside parliament opposing euthanasia every time it comes up; I have spoken out, and continue to speak out, in sermons and in articles, about the gift of life; and I am a senior part of a charity that has made significant interventions in the UK over this matter.
However, what do you mean by ‘church’? Because I am in an independent congregation, and because I am an avowed theologically conservative Protestant, I am not part of the denominational structures which people mean when they blithely use the term ‘church’ – yet I am most assuredly part of Christ’s church on earth.
Furthermore, because of what I believe, the MSM has no interest in what I say. And if the MSM did come calling I’d be mighty careful, as their intent would undoubtedly be to try to mock and humiliate me by setting me against someone with no morals but lots of clever words.

T Bone
T Bone
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Any church attached to a State is not a church but a Political organ. When people refer to Church attrocities they are with few exceptions referring to a State operation under a religious name.

T Bone
T Bone
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Any church attached to a State is not a church but a Political organ. When people refer to Church attrocities they are with few exceptions referring to a State operation under a religious name.

Stephen Barnard
Stephen Barnard
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

could…

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

The church is a tool whose raison d’etre has disappeared, like the spokeshave. They only exist as a small arm for the far left. They will go to any length to preserve their business model, including defending child abuse and rape. To quote the sadly underrated thinker Noel Gallagher they are men “with a fork in a world of soup”

Last edited 8 months ago by mike otter
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

It depends entirely on what you mean by ‘the church’. As a senior pastor within independent congregations I have stood outside parliament opposing euthanasia every time it comes up; I have spoken out, and continue to speak out, in sermons and in articles, about the gift of life; and I am a senior part of a charity that has made significant interventions in the UK over this matter.
However, what do you mean by ‘church’? Because I am in an independent congregation, and because I am an avowed theologically conservative Protestant, I am not part of the denominational structures which people mean when they blithely use the term ‘church’ – yet I am most assuredly part of Christ’s church on earth.
Furthermore, because of what I believe, the MSM has no interest in what I say. And if the MSM did come calling I’d be mighty careful, as their intent would undoubtedly be to try to mock and humiliate me by setting me against someone with no morals but lots of clever words.

Stephen Barnard
Stephen Barnard
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

could…

Tony Price
Tony Price
8 months ago

Strange argument indeed. The ‘Church’, like most religions, has intentionally killed plenty of people who would have preferred to live.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Seb was referring to the churches of today, not those of centuries ago.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Nevertheless……..

Tony Price
Tony Price
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

I refer you to “…The Church has historically taught that intentionally killing is murder … This teaching is ancient, …”. Sounds like he’s referring to centuries ago to me.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

I was responding to your own earlier comment, however, which says that the Church “has intentionally killed plenty of people who would have preferred to live.” Do you know of any churches that are now advocating military crusades or burning at the stake? I sure don’t.

Last edited 8 months ago by Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

I was responding to your own earlier comment, however, which says that the Church “has intentionally killed plenty of people who would have preferred to live.” Do you know of any churches that are now advocating military crusades or burning at the stake? I sure don’t.

Last edited 8 months ago by Paul Nathanson
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Nevertheless……..

Tony Price
Tony Price
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

I refer you to “…The Church has historically taught that intentionally killing is murder … This teaching is ancient, …”. Sounds like he’s referring to centuries ago to me.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

The ‘Church’ of Rome certainly has.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Must we trot out this dead horse at every mention of religion? Yes, a lot of people have died in wars over religion. A lot of people have died in the hundreds of other wars over territory, or resources, or geopolitics, or no reason at all really(see WWI). The non-religious governments of Stalin and Hitler killed millions of people, their own and others as well, yet that doesn’t make all dialectical materialists or whatever Hitler was guilty by association. It’s a stupid argument. The common denominator here is not religion, or lack thereof. The common denominator is people. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say murder and war would still be a thing even in a world of atheists.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

they are trying to rationalize their unfaith

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

I suspect you give them too much credit. I suspect all they are doing is trying to sound cool, hip, and modern in front of their friends and/or fit into certain progressive social circles. Honestly, I have witnessed the same behaviors and made the same complaint about a lot of church goers and outwardly religious folk, that their faith is more about fitting in, being a part of a club, and engaging in this sort of collective schoolyard taunting of the other side. It’s the same sort of blind joiner behavior I see everywhere and have come to hate because of all the problems it causes. I often amuse myself by pointing out how their behavior is exactly the same crap as the people they consider to be their opposites. I confess to being a bit of an anti-social jack-ass who enjoys pointing out human failings.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

More power to you, Steve. Thanks for saying what must be said. Sometimes, I just roll my eyes after reading what is supposed to be conventional wisdom (but often with a gratuitous sneer). This time, I didn’t. But I’m glad that you took the time to make a more detailed comment than mine. After a lifetime in the field of comparative religion–my area of specialization being religion and secularity–I must admit that I’ve become cynical in some ways (and I detest cynicism not only as a personal failing but also as a cultural scourge). Too many people don’t, can’t or won’t hear what they don’t want to hear. And everyone’s an expert on religion (and sex), right?

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Sorry to say I succumbed to cynicism at a disturbingly young age, but I had, and still have, other issues that contribute heavily to it. To summarize a long, boring, and pointless biography, I am uniquely unsuited to thriving in society as it currently exists, but ideal for pointing out its myriad failings. Whether fate or blind luck, it is the
hand I have been dealt. People dropping glib one-liners lifted wholesale from stock criticisms over a century old simply rubs me the wrong way. They’re just parroting something they heard some cool celebrity or one of their friends say without any understanding of the historical context or the reasoning that led to it, and that person is probably doing the same thing. It’s anyone’s guess how far the chain goes before we find somebody who actually has done any serious thinking or reading on the subject. That is just one of the herd behaviors that have led to my becoming something of a misanthrope.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Welcome to the club, Steve. And there’s one good thing about being misanthropic (due to fate, not gleeful choice). It doesn’t refer to this or that group of people as targets of hatred. For me, at any rate, it refers to people in general as sources of disappointment.
Fortunately, I can still get beyond that point of view at least occasionally. I can still admire the people who really do deserve admiration, those who seek truth or justice, who create beauty, who are capable of love and even self-sacrifice. Those people do make me proud to be human, although I often forget about them in the midst of daily life.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Welcome to the club, Steve. And there’s one good thing about being misanthropic (due to fate, not gleeful choice). It doesn’t refer to this or that group of people as targets of hatred. For me, at any rate, it refers to people in general as sources of disappointment.
Fortunately, I can still get beyond that point of view at least occasionally. I can still admire the people who really do deserve admiration, those who seek truth or justice, who create beauty, who are capable of love and even self-sacrifice. Those people do make me proud to be human, although I often forget about them in the midst of daily life.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Sorry to say I succumbed to cynicism at a disturbingly young age, but I had, and still have, other issues that contribute heavily to it. To summarize a long, boring, and pointless biography, I am uniquely unsuited to thriving in society as it currently exists, but ideal for pointing out its myriad failings. Whether fate or blind luck, it is the
hand I have been dealt. People dropping glib one-liners lifted wholesale from stock criticisms over a century old simply rubs me the wrong way. They’re just parroting something they heard some cool celebrity or one of their friends say without any understanding of the historical context or the reasoning that led to it, and that person is probably doing the same thing. It’s anyone’s guess how far the chain goes before we find somebody who actually has done any serious thinking or reading on the subject. That is just one of the herd behaviors that have led to my becoming something of a misanthrope.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

More power to you, Steve. Thanks for saying what must be said. Sometimes, I just roll my eyes after reading what is supposed to be conventional wisdom (but often with a gratuitous sneer). This time, I didn’t. But I’m glad that you took the time to make a more detailed comment than mine. After a lifetime in the field of comparative religion–my area of specialization being religion and secularity–I must admit that I’ve become cynical in some ways (and I detest cynicism not only as a personal failing but also as a cultural scourge). Too many people don’t, can’t or won’t hear what they don’t want to hear. And everyone’s an expert on religion (and sex), right?

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

I suspect you give them too much credit. I suspect all they are doing is trying to sound cool, hip, and modern in front of their friends and/or fit into certain progressive social circles. Honestly, I have witnessed the same behaviors and made the same complaint about a lot of church goers and outwardly religious folk, that their faith is more about fitting in, being a part of a club, and engaging in this sort of collective schoolyard taunting of the other side. It’s the same sort of blind joiner behavior I see everywhere and have come to hate because of all the problems it causes. I often amuse myself by pointing out how their behavior is exactly the same crap as the people they consider to be their opposites. I confess to being a bit of an anti-social jack-ass who enjoys pointing out human failings.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

But we’ll never know.

Ticiba Upe
Ticiba Upe
7 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Bravo

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

they are trying to rationalize their unfaith

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

But we’ll never know.

Ticiba Upe
Ticiba Upe
7 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Bravo

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Well said, Tony.

Jeremy Sansom
Jeremy Sansom
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

You say ‘Church’. Please define which church – the one whose members wear the T-shirt or those who are followers of Jesus Christ? If you are in Christ’s Ecclesia you do not kill or entertain killing.
The final judgement will distinguish the T-shirt wearers from those with circumcised hearts. The latter have undergone a painful, but ultimately joyous transformation. The former entertain a delusional notion that access to heaven is secured merely with good intentions.
There’s a cost to discipleship.

El Uro
El Uro
1 month ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Inquisition killed about few hundred people during about 400 years of its existence

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Seb was referring to the churches of today, not those of centuries ago.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

The ‘Church’ of Rome certainly has.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Must we trot out this dead horse at every mention of religion? Yes, a lot of people have died in wars over religion. A lot of people have died in the hundreds of other wars over territory, or resources, or geopolitics, or no reason at all really(see WWI). The non-religious governments of Stalin and Hitler killed millions of people, their own and others as well, yet that doesn’t make all dialectical materialists or whatever Hitler was guilty by association. It’s a stupid argument. The common denominator here is not religion, or lack thereof. The common denominator is people. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say murder and war would still be a thing even in a world of atheists.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Well said, Tony.

Jeremy Sansom
Jeremy Sansom
8 months ago
Reply to  Tony Price

You say ‘Church’. Please define which church – the one whose members wear the T-shirt or those who are followers of Jesus Christ? If you are in Christ’s Ecclesia you do not kill or entertain killing.
The final judgement will distinguish the T-shirt wearers from those with circumcised hearts. The latter have undergone a painful, but ultimately joyous transformation. The former entertain a delusional notion that access to heaven is secured merely with good intentions.
There’s a cost to discipleship.

El Uro
El Uro
1 month ago
Reply to  Tony Price

Inquisition killed about few hundred people during about 400 years of its existence

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

Quite so. “Nobody asked us if we wanted to be here” is an astonishingly horrific and ungodly view of the wonderful gift of life. Someone taking this attitude in the first place can hardly then go on to call what is now happening in Canada ‘cruel’ – as they support its fundamental principle.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Easy for you to say if you haven’t suffered. For some it’s a justified feeling and they no longer want to be here, so who are you to make a judgement.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Well, Clare, who are you to say who has suffered and who hasn’t? Besides, this is not entirely a private matter. Everyone should have a say in matters of life and death, because it’s in connection with these boundaries that we collectively define the meaning and value of life.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

I know people who have suffered, haven’t you? Should “everyone” have a say about my desire to kill myself?

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Of course, Clare, I’ve known people who suffer (and I include myself in some ways). But this discussion is not only about the needs of those who experience personal suffering and therefore do indeed deserve personal compassion. It’s also about the needs of society as a whole and therefore about a different kind of compassion (what I’d call wisdom). Finding a balance between personal and communal needs is not easy, but it is necessary whenever that balance involves the law.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

I do not understand what you mean by “communal needs” with respect to a person’s desire, because of their suffering, to end their life. Your “communal needs” argument seems to infer that a community gains some benefit from allowing this suffering to continue (what can this be?), or that the community has some omniscient right to make these most fundamental decisions of life choice far better than any individual ever can – so the state must adjudicate the decision. I see this issue instead as a fundamental issue of free-will. Thus, given that such a choice is made rationally, I can not see how the decision of a person to end their suffering should be legislated by the community. And to follow on, I cannot see why the assistance of others who love that suffering person, in helping to assist in achieving that suffering persons choice is an act against the community.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I refer to (a) the culturally promoted virtue of courage and (b) the culturally promoted value of life.
Inherent in every healthy community is the collective need to overcome hardship, endure suffering and survive. Consequently, every community must cultivate fortitude–which is a necessary feature of daily life, not only one that is needed at the end of life. This does not preclude compassion for the suffering of those who face inevitable and imminent death, which is why hospitals offer palliative care. But using law to establish an individual “right to die” is another matter.
Laws are always not only practical but also symbolic (because its authority emerges from the state). This kind of law clearly has practical effects on many people apart from the patients themselves–families, friends, physicians and so on–and not necessarily in helpful ways. Moreover, and less obviously, this kind of law symbolically encourages the extreme individualism of our time, which is already fragmenting society into a collection of supposedly autonomous individuals.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I refer to (a) the culturally promoted virtue of courage and (b) the culturally promoted value of life.
Inherent in every healthy community is the collective need to overcome hardship, endure suffering and survive. Consequently, every community must cultivate fortitude–which is a necessary feature of daily life, not only one that is needed at the end of life. This does not preclude compassion for the suffering of those who face inevitable and imminent death, which is why hospitals offer palliative care. But using law to establish an individual “right to die” is another matter.
Laws are always not only practical but also symbolic (because its authority emerges from the state). This kind of law clearly has practical effects on many people apart from the patients themselves–families, friends, physicians and so on–and not necessarily in helpful ways. Moreover, and less obviously, this kind of law symbolically encourages the extreme individualism of our time, which is already fragmenting society into a collection of supposedly autonomous individuals.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

I do not understand what you mean by “communal needs” with respect to a person’s desire, because of their suffering, to end their life. Your “communal needs” argument seems to infer that a community gains some benefit from allowing this suffering to continue (what can this be?), or that the community has some omniscient right to make these most fundamental decisions of life choice far better than any individual ever can – so the state must adjudicate the decision. I see this issue instead as a fundamental issue of free-will. Thus, given that such a choice is made rationally, I can not see how the decision of a person to end their suffering should be legislated by the community. And to follow on, I cannot see why the assistance of others who love that suffering person, in helping to assist in achieving that suffering persons choice is an act against the community.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Of course, Clare, I’ve known people who suffer (and I include myself in some ways). But this discussion is not only about the needs of those who experience personal suffering and therefore do indeed deserve personal compassion. It’s also about the needs of society as a whole and therefore about a different kind of compassion (what I’d call wisdom). Finding a balance between personal and communal needs is not easy, but it is necessary whenever that balance involves the law.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

I know people who have suffered, haven’t you? Should “everyone” have a say about my desire to kill myself?

James S.
James S.
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

We ALL suffer in this life. It is part of the human condition. The question is how one views suffering and how one values life, warts and all.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Well, Clare, who are you to say who has suffered and who hasn’t? Besides, this is not entirely a private matter. Everyone should have a say in matters of life and death, because it’s in connection with these boundaries that we collectively define the meaning and value of life.

James S.
James S.
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

We ALL suffer in this life. It is part of the human condition. The question is how one views suffering and how one values life, warts and all.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Easy for you to say if you haven’t suffered. For some it’s a justified feeling and they no longer want to be here, so who are you to make a judgement.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago

Well said. As a libertarian who witnessed both my maternal grandparents, with whom I was close, deteriorate and die of cancer, I have always been staunchly pro-assisted suicide specifically for those with terminal illnesses yet this article gives me some hesitation. If somebody is going to die, what does a couple extra months of abject misery accomplish exactly? If Canada serves as an example, more than I would have expected. The law of unintended consequences seems to be rearing its ugly head. Particularly disturbing are the doctors and ‘ethicists’ telling people how much it costs to keep them alive. Along those same lines, it’s no great leap in logic to advocating policies that sterilize the disabled and the poor, and then further to putting dissidents and other malcontents in ‘reeducation’ camps or just plain old death camps, and we’ve seen enough of that I think. I’m always suspicious of slippery slope arguments, but seeing what’s going on in Canada shows that while the argument is overused, it’s not automatically invalid. In a society that has already veered much too far in the direction of pure materialism, with governments regarding people not as citizens but as assets or liabilities, unbounded policies like Canada’s seem to be pouring gasoline on the fire. If someone told me, however, that if my living a couple more unpleasant months would help prevent our society’s further descent into materialistic nihilism and ensure that future generations aren’t herded into work camps because the government deems them ‘too costly’, I might find such an argument compelling.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Once you surrender the idea that human life in innately good, it becomes possible to justify all kinds of things.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Well lets see how you feel about actually experiencing “a couple of extra months of abject misery” and then come back and tell us what you think.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

At the very least, I think we can all agree people shouldn’t be herded into gas chambers, eh? I can and have supported assisted suicide on the libertarian principle that it is an individual right. The author presents evidence, however, that the reality is falling far short of the libertarian ideal. The government is, in a few examples at least, putting their thumb on the scale of individual choices, and that offends my libertarian principles as well. We don’t get to live in a world of ideals, unfortunately. We live in a complex world of consequences intended and unintended. I reserve the right to look at available evidence and conclude that pursuing an ideal, even a correct one, can have bad results in practice. Even communism has theoretical appeal, but falls short when the rubber meets the road. That’s life, my friend. It’s messy, complicated, and we have to make hard and unpleasant choices all the time. As a libertarian, I’ll just say you make yours and I’ll make mine and I’d rather government ethicists stay out of both.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

“Being herded into gas chambers” sounds like murder.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

“Being herded into gas chambers” sounds like murder.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Yes, I too was staggered by the ineffable smugness of that statement.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Clare, no one is arguing for intentionally prolonging suffering. My own post made that clear. But intentional killing has to be a hard line. Because once you legalize that there is an inexorable push to be willing to kill more often.
Best to stick with “do not murder” and deal with relieving suffering in its own way. And yes, that means sometimes there will be suffering that can’t be easily relieved. But that is the price of civilization. Once you start treating people like animals and “putting them down”, you’ve abandoned the humanity of both those you kill and yourself.

Last edited 8 months ago by Brian Villanueva
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

It’s not about “putting people down”. You miss the point. It’s about people having the choice to end their own lives, painlessly, not having other people end it for them.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

People have always taken their own lives, Clare. All they need are guns, windows or sleeping pills. There’s nothing new about suicide. What’s new (since the twentieth century) is the state using its moral and legal authority to support suicide, sometimes on moral grounds (compassion for people who suffer needlessly) but sometimes on immoral grounds (such as cost control or “racial hygiene”).
And by the way, no one has yet commented on the indirect pressure that leads old people to die rather than to live on as burdens on their loved ones. This happens even when the latter truly don’t want the solution to be death, because society (with or without government collusion) gives them the message that the value of life is relative and that the termination of life is a purely practical matter.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

It’s hard to get your hands on sleeping pills, nowadays.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I don’t know about that, Clare, but I do know that many hospitals offer palliative care (and did so in Canada even before MAID). My very close friend is in a hospice after a year of (ultimately) unsuccessful chemotherapy. She won’t survive but she will die peacefully, and no physician is going to kill her.

Guy Pigache
Guy Pigache
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

They will. They up the morphine dose until your heart stops

Guy Pigache
Guy Pigache
7 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

They will. They up the morphine dose until your heart stops

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I don’t know about that, Clare, but I do know that many hospitals offer palliative care (and did so in Canada even before MAID). My very close friend is in a hospice after a year of (ultimately) unsuccessful chemotherapy. She won’t survive but she will die peacefully, and no physician is going to kill her.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

It’s hard to get your hands on sleeping pills, nowadays.

penny wright
penny wright
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

But how can it be ‘not having other people end it for them’ when it is medical aid in dying ie a doctor kills you.
It is inherently non-sense to want the right to end your own life then use the medical profession to do it.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

People have always taken their own lives, Clare. All they need are guns, windows or sleeping pills. There’s nothing new about suicide. What’s new (since the twentieth century) is the state using its moral and legal authority to support suicide, sometimes on moral grounds (compassion for people who suffer needlessly) but sometimes on immoral grounds (such as cost control or “racial hygiene”).
And by the way, no one has yet commented on the indirect pressure that leads old people to die rather than to live on as burdens on their loved ones. This happens even when the latter truly don’t want the solution to be death, because society (with or without government collusion) gives them the message that the value of life is relative and that the termination of life is a purely practical matter.

penny wright
penny wright
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

But how can it be ‘not having other people end it for them’ when it is medical aid in dying ie a doctor kills you.
It is inherently non-sense to want the right to end your own life then use the medical profession to do it.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

It’s not about “putting people down”. You miss the point. It’s about people having the choice to end their own lives, painlessly, not having other people end it for them.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

At the very least, I think we can all agree people shouldn’t be herded into gas chambers, eh? I can and have supported assisted suicide on the libertarian principle that it is an individual right. The author presents evidence, however, that the reality is falling far short of the libertarian ideal. The government is, in a few examples at least, putting their thumb on the scale of individual choices, and that offends my libertarian principles as well. We don’t get to live in a world of ideals, unfortunately. We live in a complex world of consequences intended and unintended. I reserve the right to look at available evidence and conclude that pursuing an ideal, even a correct one, can have bad results in practice. Even communism has theoretical appeal, but falls short when the rubber meets the road. That’s life, my friend. It’s messy, complicated, and we have to make hard and unpleasant choices all the time. As a libertarian, I’ll just say you make yours and I’ll make mine and I’d rather government ethicists stay out of both.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Yes, I too was staggered by the ineffable smugness of that statement.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Clare, no one is arguing for intentionally prolonging suffering. My own post made that clear. But intentional killing has to be a hard line. Because once you legalize that there is an inexorable push to be willing to kill more often.
Best to stick with “do not murder” and deal with relieving suffering in its own way. And yes, that means sometimes there will be suffering that can’t be easily relieved. But that is the price of civilization. Once you start treating people like animals and “putting them down”, you’ve abandoned the humanity of both those you kill and yourself.

Last edited 8 months ago by Brian Villanueva
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Why is it that those who argue against assisted dying never address the rights and wrongs of the fundamental issue itself, but always trot out these slippery slope arguments to move the issue onto other more extreme grounds? Isn’t it more compassionate to instead talk about what measures can be put in place to avoid ever reaching such slippery slopes?

philip kern
philip kern
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Because the slope is real and has proved to be extremely slippery?

philip kern
philip kern
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Because the slope is real and has proved to be extremely slippery?

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Once you surrender the idea that human life in innately good, it becomes possible to justify all kinds of things.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Well lets see how you feel about actually experiencing “a couple of extra months of abject misery” and then come back and tell us what you think.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Jolly

Why is it that those who argue against assisted dying never address the rights and wrongs of the fundamental issue itself, but always trot out these slippery slope arguments to move the issue onto other more extreme grounds? Isn’t it more compassionate to instead talk about what measures can be put in place to avoid ever reaching such slippery slopes?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago

Why should Canada overstepping be an excuse for not having a well managed, compassionate assisted suicide plan? We all know Canada has lost the plot in many respects. Freedom to die with dignity is a sign of the most evolved societies and we should not be abandoning desperate people. Fact is we are all going to die – stop being so fearful.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago

So Lesley, serious question, how did Canada “lose the plot” on this issue? Where did they go wrong?
You say “Freedom to die with dignity is a sign of the most evolved societies and we should not be abandoning desperate people.” I think a civilized society gives people the tools to live, not the encouragement to die.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

I don’t see how you think assisted suicide is encouraging people to die.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

There have been numerous news reports that the Canadian Heath System will deny curative care but always offer to pay for MAID. “Gee Grandma, your dementia’s getting pretty bad, why not off yourself to relieve your kids (and the state) of the burden that is you?” Whether such a statement comes from the kids or from a govt bureaucrat in a form letter doesn’t make it any more palatable. Sounds like encouragement to me.
Since it’s clear you believe people have a right to get others to assist in arranging their own demise, I would ask you the same question I ask Lesley: how would you arrange such a system so that it didn’t “lose the plot” the way Canada has?

Last edited 8 months ago by Brian Villanueva
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

I’m not thinking about Canada’s MAID program when I respond. I’m just thinking about some way to make end of life an easy and painless process without government intervention. I’m an old lady myself and the prospect of slowly dying, alone in pain, in a nursing home is a terrifying prospect.
My mother was able to end her life, with my help, but I don’t have anyone to help me.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

I’m not thinking about Canada’s MAID program when I respond. I’m just thinking about some way to make end of life an easy and painless process without government intervention. I’m an old lady myself and the prospect of slowly dying, alone in pain, in a nursing home is a terrifying prospect.
My mother was able to end her life, with my help, but I don’t have anyone to help me.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

There have been numerous news reports that the Canadian Heath System will deny curative care but always offer to pay for MAID. “Gee Grandma, your dementia’s getting pretty bad, why not off yourself to relieve your kids (and the state) of the burden that is you?” Whether such a statement comes from the kids or from a govt bureaucrat in a form letter doesn’t make it any more palatable. Sounds like encouragement to me.
Since it’s clear you believe people have a right to get others to assist in arranging their own demise, I would ask you the same question I ask Lesley: how would you arrange such a system so that it didn’t “lose the plot” the way Canada has?

Last edited 8 months ago by Brian Villanueva
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

I don’t see how you think assisted suicide is encouraging people to die.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

Thank you well said, Lesley.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
8 months ago

Well said.

Gilmour Campbell
Gilmour Campbell
8 months ago

“Freedom to die with dignity is a sign of the most evolved societies ….” An example of which would be ..?

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago

So Lesley, serious question, how did Canada “lose the plot” on this issue? Where did they go wrong?
You say “Freedom to die with dignity is a sign of the most evolved societies and we should not be abandoning desperate people.” I think a civilized society gives people the tools to live, not the encouragement to die.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

Thank you well said, Lesley.

Coralie Palmer
Coralie Palmer
8 months ago

Well said.

Gilmour Campbell
Gilmour Campbell
8 months ago

“Freedom to die with dignity is a sign of the most evolved societies ….” An example of which would be ..?

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago

Yup, they are fascists’ doing fascist things.

T Bone
T Bone
8 months ago

That’s because Postmodernism is just a mutated subvariant of Marxism which uses Liberation Theology to mask the cold, calculated Utilitarianism of “The Planners.”

Behind all the fuzzy language nonsense are Social Planners trying to scientifically reengineer “sustainable” hierarchies in the name of Progress.

Last edited 8 months ago by T Bone
Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
8 months ago

Back in the day the people Lionel Shriver mentions, in terrible pain and about to die were helped on their way by the treating Doc with the extra shot of morphine.
Hurrying people on their way so relatives could split the legacy proceeds wasn’t as big a problem as it’s likely to be now…there weren’t any for the vast majority beyond some chairs and a sideboard.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

That was my experience with my grandfather, Ted. The VA Doctors were clear that upping his morphine dose might well be fatal, but without it he would be in serious pain. And my father made the second hardest decision he has ever had to make. (He told me once that the hardest happened when Mom had complications during my birth and he was asked whose life to prioritize. He’s never told either of us what his answer was.)
Patient families and doctors together make these sorts of decisions all the time. But the wholesale embrace of medicalized murder is in a whole different category, both morally and practically.

Last edited 8 months ago by Brian Villanueva
James S.
James S.
8 months ago

Thank you for sharing your family’s experience. My experience with my stepmom, and with several terminally ill patients has been similar.

The specialty of palliative care medicine and the hospice movement exist to help relieve pain and suffering during dying. We have lots of tools to help in that without resorting to the false dichotomy of agonizing death vs. medicalized suicide/homicide. One of my sisters in law had home hospice care in our home, and it was a blessing (and affordable). I would encourage people to look beyond the false dichotomy.

James S.
James S.
8 months ago

Thank you for sharing your family’s experience. My experience with my stepmom, and with several terminally ill patients has been similar.

The specialty of palliative care medicine and the hospice movement exist to help relieve pain and suffering during dying. We have lots of tools to help in that without resorting to the false dichotomy of agonizing death vs. medicalized suicide/homicide. One of my sisters in law had home hospice care in our home, and it was a blessing (and affordable). I would encourage people to look beyond the false dichotomy.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

That was my experience with my grandfather, Ted. The VA Doctors were clear that upping his morphine dose might well be fatal, but without it he would be in serious pain. And my father made the second hardest decision he has ever had to make. (He told me once that the hardest happened when Mom had complications during my birth and he was asked whose life to prioritize. He’s never told either of us what his answer was.)
Patient families and doctors together make these sorts of decisions all the time. But the wholesale embrace of medicalized murder is in a whole different category, both morally and practically.

Last edited 8 months ago by Brian Villanueva
James S.
James S.
8 months ago

You refer to “double effect,” which I believe is still accepted doctrine in The RCC and traditional Christian medical ethics. Aggressive pain and symptom relief may have the double effect of hastening death, but that is a secondary effect, not the primary goal.

As an MD in the States and a Christian I look at the trajectory of Canada’s MAID program with horror. This is the abandonment of traditional medical ethics, “primum non nocere,” and the triumph of materialistic postmodern “ethics.” My cynical question: why don’t the Canadians just take the next logical step and have mobile vans with Zyklon B? We seem to have learned nothing from 1930s-1940s Germany.

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
8 months ago

You have it right – all of medicine is a cost benefit analysis. Therein lies the violation, by definition, of the hippocratic oath. To decide what is best of one patient based on what is best for the herd is a breach of ethics and an inherent conflict of interest. Any standard and accepted practice that fails to see a patient as singular being is not health care.
It seems that glib-eral punks are indeed, in charge of public policy.
My 33 year old son who resided in San Francisco, California and was a successful software engineer and podcaster, was also “mentally ill”. I put this in quotes because our immediate and extended family has a history of autoimmune illnesses, the long list of which are becoming more numerous within medicine. Yes, suicide is also in the family health history, which comes in handy when looking for exculpation. In fact his behaviour and suffering looked much more like dementia in retrospect. Yes, he’s dead by his own hand, but with help, just last year,. He had help from a neglectful system of socialized medicine and a state government and judicial system that failed to keep him hospitalized and protected. His life was ended and his quite successful business failed because his family was not given any power to protect him. Ten emergency but brief hospitalizations in one year should give rise to a duty to step up the medical care, not abandon him.
His psychiatrist submitted medical proof that he lacked insight into his own mental health care. Interestingly, California had recently rejected an addition to the gravely disabled prong of civil commitment – LACK OF INSIGHT INTO ONE’S MENTAL HEALTH STATUS.
Our case for a conservatorship followed hot on the heels of the Britney Spears case. You see – in California – only the State can apply for an LPS conservatorship of the person. Despite our having begged the health care facilities to keep him hospitalized, and to put him under a conservatorship, they failed and refused to do so. Nor would the Probate Court exercise any jurisdiction over him. The callous disregard with which our beloved son was handled is more than just unfortunate. It was avoidable if someone had cared enough.
We all knew he was suicidal for 2 years yet we could not intervene. He finally turned to Exit International and Sanctioned Suicide, and online helper to end one’s life … AND … probably a focal point for human trafficking and organ harvesting.
I don’t doubt that there are legitimate and understandable cases of euthanasia. But the corrosive effect of legalized euthanasia on “health care” and the state’s duty to caring for and protect the individual is obvious and repulsive. Psychiatry is the one area of “health care” where without even an MRI or blood test, the “doctors” will send you off with mind altering drugs. Dementia can cause psychosis and the medications can cause turrets. How these arrogant “professionals” think they can suss out one from the other is a mystery to me. The brain and neurological system is understood only to an extent. Genetics are also not well understood.
Before our health care systems and professionals were all cowed by groupthink and the surveillance state, I know for a fact that terminal patients were handled discreetly. And this was not for the purpose of cost benefit analysis; it was for humane reasons. To include depressed patients within this class of patient population eligible for state assisted euthanasia is simply disgusting.

Last edited 8 months ago by Gayle Rosenthal
Deborah Grant
Deborah Grant
7 months ago

Not a word here about people living with dementia. I volunteer in dementia supportt.
People die with dementia – and I know no-one who wants to live with it when they can’t recognise their loved ones or look after their personal care. There needs to be an enforceable living will, signed when the person is still competent.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
8 months ago

Indeed. This is exactly the kind of issue that would keep the Church relevant, and on which they could show moral leadership, or at least be a counterweight to more utilitarian approaches.

Tony Price
Tony Price
8 months ago

Strange argument indeed. The ‘Church’, like most religions, has intentionally killed plenty of people who would have preferred to live.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

Quite so. “Nobody asked us if we wanted to be here” is an astonishingly horrific and ungodly view of the wonderful gift of life. Someone taking this attitude in the first place can hardly then go on to call what is now happening in Canada ‘cruel’ – as they support its fundamental principle.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago

Well said. As a libertarian who witnessed both my maternal grandparents, with whom I was close, deteriorate and die of cancer, I have always been staunchly pro-assisted suicide specifically for those with terminal illnesses yet this article gives me some hesitation. If somebody is going to die, what does a couple extra months of abject misery accomplish exactly? If Canada serves as an example, more than I would have expected. The law of unintended consequences seems to be rearing its ugly head. Particularly disturbing are the doctors and ‘ethicists’ telling people how much it costs to keep them alive. Along those same lines, it’s no great leap in logic to advocating policies that sterilize the disabled and the poor, and then further to putting dissidents and other malcontents in ‘reeducation’ camps or just plain old death camps, and we’ve seen enough of that I think. I’m always suspicious of slippery slope arguments, but seeing what’s going on in Canada shows that while the argument is overused, it’s not automatically invalid. In a society that has already veered much too far in the direction of pure materialism, with governments regarding people not as citizens but as assets or liabilities, unbounded policies like Canada’s seem to be pouring gasoline on the fire. If someone told me, however, that if my living a couple more unpleasant months would help prevent our society’s further descent into materialistic nihilism and ensure that future generations aren’t herded into work camps because the government deems them ‘too costly’, I might find such an argument compelling.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago

Why should Canada overstepping be an excuse for not having a well managed, compassionate assisted suicide plan? We all know Canada has lost the plot in many respects. Freedom to die with dignity is a sign of the most evolved societies and we should not be abandoning desperate people. Fact is we are all going to die – stop being so fearful.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago

Yup, they are fascists’ doing fascist things.

T Bone
T Bone
8 months ago

That’s because Postmodernism is just a mutated subvariant of Marxism which uses Liberation Theology to mask the cold, calculated Utilitarianism of “The Planners.”

Behind all the fuzzy language nonsense are Social Planners trying to scientifically reengineer “sustainable” hierarchies in the name of Progress.

Last edited 8 months ago by T Bone
Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
8 months ago

Back in the day the people Lionel Shriver mentions, in terrible pain and about to die were helped on their way by the treating Doc with the extra shot of morphine.
Hurrying people on their way so relatives could split the legacy proceeds wasn’t as big a problem as it’s likely to be now…there weren’t any for the vast majority beyond some chairs and a sideboard.

James S.
James S.
8 months ago

You refer to “double effect,” which I believe is still accepted doctrine in The RCC and traditional Christian medical ethics. Aggressive pain and symptom relief may have the double effect of hastening death, but that is a secondary effect, not the primary goal.

As an MD in the States and a Christian I look at the trajectory of Canada’s MAID program with horror. This is the abandonment of traditional medical ethics, “primum non nocere,” and the triumph of materialistic postmodern “ethics.” My cynical question: why don’t the Canadians just take the next logical step and have mobile vans with Zyklon B? We seem to have learned nothing from 1930s-1940s Germany.

Gayle Rosenthal
Gayle Rosenthal
8 months ago

You have it right – all of medicine is a cost benefit analysis. Therein lies the violation, by definition, of the hippocratic oath. To decide what is best of one patient based on what is best for the herd is a breach of ethics and an inherent conflict of interest. Any standard and accepted practice that fails to see a patient as singular being is not health care.
It seems that glib-eral punks are indeed, in charge of public policy.
My 33 year old son who resided in San Francisco, California and was a successful software engineer and podcaster, was also “mentally ill”. I put this in quotes because our immediate and extended family has a history of autoimmune illnesses, the long list of which are becoming more numerous within medicine. Yes, suicide is also in the family health history, which comes in handy when looking for exculpation. In fact his behaviour and suffering looked much more like dementia in retrospect. Yes, he’s dead by his own hand, but with help, just last year,. He had help from a neglectful system of socialized medicine and a state government and judicial system that failed to keep him hospitalized and protected. His life was ended and his quite successful business failed because his family was not given any power to protect him. Ten emergency but brief hospitalizations in one year should give rise to a duty to step up the medical care, not abandon him.
His psychiatrist submitted medical proof that he lacked insight into his own mental health care. Interestingly, California had recently rejected an addition to the gravely disabled prong of civil commitment – LACK OF INSIGHT INTO ONE’S MENTAL HEALTH STATUS.
Our case for a conservatorship followed hot on the heels of the Britney Spears case. You see – in California – only the State can apply for an LPS conservatorship of the person. Despite our having begged the health care facilities to keep him hospitalized, and to put him under a conservatorship, they failed and refused to do so. Nor would the Probate Court exercise any jurisdiction over him. The callous disregard with which our beloved son was handled is more than just unfortunate. It was avoidable if someone had cared enough.
We all knew he was suicidal for 2 years yet we could not intervene. He finally turned to Exit International and Sanctioned Suicide, and online helper to end one’s life … AND … probably a focal point for human trafficking and organ harvesting.
I don’t doubt that there are legitimate and understandable cases of euthanasia. But the corrosive effect of legalized euthanasia on “health care” and the state’s duty to caring for and protect the individual is obvious and repulsive. Psychiatry is the one area of “health care” where without even an MRI or blood test, the “doctors” will send you off with mind altering drugs. Dementia can cause psychosis and the medications can cause turrets. How these arrogant “professionals” think they can suss out one from the other is a mystery to me. The brain and neurological system is understood only to an extent. Genetics are also not well understood.
Before our health care systems and professionals were all cowed by groupthink and the surveillance state, I know for a fact that terminal patients were handled discreetly. And this was not for the purpose of cost benefit analysis; it was for humane reasons. To include depressed patients within this class of patient population eligible for state assisted euthanasia is simply disgusting.

Last edited 8 months ago by Gayle Rosenthal
Deborah Grant
Deborah Grant
7 months ago

Not a word here about people living with dementia. I volunteer in dementia supportt.
People die with dementia – and I know no-one who wants to live with it when they can’t recognise their loved ones or look after their personal care. There needs to be an enforceable living will, signed when the person is still competent.

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
8 months ago

It turns out that obscure philosophical arguments are actually pretty important. The horrors of the 20th century taught a great many people that.
In philosophical terms, either human life is an unalloyed good or it is not. If something is truly good, then intentionally ending it is bad. If something is only good under certain conditions, then we must perform a cost-benefit analysis to determine whether ending it is good or bad. Please note I am not saying that human life is always “pleasurable”, but “good” and “pleasurable” are very different things.
Human life is always good. So what do we do about a human life that is truly agony: untreatable cancer or late stage muscular dystrophy? This is a problem that philosophers and theologians have wrestled with for millennia, and the Church (specifically Catholic and Orthodox) have very solid teaching on the subject. The Church has historically taught that intentionally killing is murder, but a death which occurs incidental to an attempt to prevent suffering is not. This teaching is ancient, and was used for centuries by doctors. A member of my own family met his end this way, via morphine given specifically to ensure he would feel no pain. It is intentionality that brings moral culpability, a concept that is also recognized in criminal law.
However, when the postmodernists abandoned 2500 years of philosophy and theology, they lost all of that. So for them, ending a human life is a cost-benefit analysis and thus always a subjective endeavor. Was the prior system perfect? Absolutely not! But it erred on the side of life instead of on the side of death, and erring toward death appears to be a very slippery slope indeed.

J Bryant
J Bryant
8 months ago

I believe assisted suicide should be available to terminally ill people or people suffering from unrelenting pain without hope of cure. I never really bought into the slippery slope argument, but now I’m faced with what’s happening in Canada.
The author expresses her surprise that ultra-liberal Canada tolerates what almost amounts to assisted execution of the despondent but otherwise healthy, but she doesn’t speculate about why Canadians tolerate this expansion of their Maids program.
Modern progressivism (and Canada surely has one of the most “progressive” governments on the planet) has taken the primacy of the individual to an absurd extreme. If a person wants to be a different gender then let them state their preference and we must all respect that decision. If a person wants to be a dog then we must all respect and affirm that decision. Is it such a stretch, under this form of extreme individualism, that if a generally healthy person wants to die then we must respect, affirm and, indeed, facilitate that choice too?
There is a slippery slope at work, but it doesn’t apply to a well-regulated assisted suicide program. It applies to an extreme ideology that places the unfettered beliefs, wishes and, sometimes, fantasies, of the individual at the heart of society.

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

It seems extraordinary that in Trudeau’s performatively ‘caring-sharing-ultra-progressive’ Canada there are instances of people seeking their own death, not because they really want to end it all, but because they’re given inadequate government support to pay for treatment.
More sinister still is a recent advert on Canadian TV, for a big retail chain, extolling not merely the morality but “the beauty” of assisted suicide, as though the policy is virtuous enough to be in line with the “brand values” the company wishes to promote. It’s the stuff of dystopian sci-fi.
All Is Beauty – YouTube
Imagine, say, a John Lewis advertisement that reassured you that they’re on your side, that they understand how difficult the cost of living crisis is for their customers, and that if only Granny would forego her expensive medical care and agree to being pushed off her perch then the rest of the family could get that lovely new sofa in the January sales, not to mention freeing up a house for the kids to sell.
We’re not quite there, yet – but this is where it starts. Normalising assisted suicide is the first step to pressuring people that it’s somehow the responsible choice to take.
Which celebrity would be shameless enough to front such a campaign, I wonder?
Pehaps if Walkers Crisps tire of that gurning Toby-jug of Woke, he might do it. ……
“Dignitas. ….. Because …. why be a burden?”

Susan Woldt
Susan Woldt
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Getting rid of inconvenient people is not a new idea. Now it’s just wrapped in PR, feel-good language to make it more and more palatable for anyone with even a little sense of humanity left.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Susan Woldt

Indeed. It’s actually an ancient practice. It was common practice in Sparta, and other Greek cities, for malformed or disabled children to be abandoned and left to die in the wilderness. One can find other examples throughout the ancient world without too much trouble I’m sure.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
8 months ago
Reply to  Susan Woldt

Indeed. It’s actually an ancient practice. It was common practice in Sparta, and other Greek cities, for malformed or disabled children to be abandoned and left to die in the wilderness. One can find other examples throughout the ancient world without too much trouble I’m sure.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Nancy Pelosi has a big family home. Her demise would result in a huge gain of living space. As she has been telling us for ages: ‘I am doing it for the children’. Always such a pillar of society.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

I suppose it was inevitable that the anti-choice folk would take a few instances of unprofessionalism in the Canadian MAIDS program and run with it, saying that “granny” would get prematurely snuffed out. Lets not let Knee-jerk, hysterical responses snuff out the choice to do with one’s body what one wishes. You’ve done enough damage to the right to have an abortion.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Gilmour Campbell
Gilmour Campbell
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Yes you can do what you like to your own body. Just don’t require me to do it for you.

Gilmour Campbell
Gilmour Campbell
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Yes you can do what you like to your own body. Just don’t require me to do it for you.

Susan Woldt
Susan Woldt
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Getting rid of inconvenient people is not a new idea. Now it’s just wrapped in PR, feel-good language to make it more and more palatable for anyone with even a little sense of humanity left.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

Nancy Pelosi has a big family home. Her demise would result in a huge gain of living space. As she has been telling us for ages: ‘I am doing it for the children’. Always such a pillar of society.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

I suppose it was inevitable that the anti-choice folk would take a few instances of unprofessionalism in the Canadian MAIDS program and run with it, saying that “granny” would get prematurely snuffed out. Lets not let Knee-jerk, hysterical responses snuff out the choice to do with one’s body what one wishes. You’ve done enough damage to the right to have an abortion.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Robin Westerman
Robin Westerman
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Putin offers a free service. You don’t need to ask.

Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

As you mention transgenderism, what leapt to my mind was the way the threat of suicide is used to persuade parents or partners of people believing they’ve been born with the wrong set of genitalia to affirm this belief to the point of “medical transition”. The mental pain of gender dysphoria is to be cured by drugs and operations paid for by the state, whilst now Canada seems to be pushing for mental pain caused by anything else to be treated by assisted suicide, to save the state money…
The contradictions of this Brave New World are increasingly breathtaking!

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

When i think of lineker i often wonder how people in the poor parts of his home town would receive him now. Perhaps “Stokie Steve” in private eye has the answer, albeit from the other side of the Midlands?

Last edited 8 months ago by mike otter
mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

There’s also an old family name in the midlands – linacre – flax growers, i guess the toby jug’s ancestors were once labourers for such an outfit and took their name – like David Ike and Warricker on R4 he shames his home town – Gok Wan for mayor!

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

There’s also an old family name in the midlands – linacre – flax growers, i guess the toby jug’s ancestors were once labourers for such an outfit and took their name – like David Ike and Warricker on R4 he shames his home town – Gok Wan for mayor!

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

The deep irony of that threat is that the suicide rate amongst those who have ‘transitioned’ (had their bodies surgically mutilated) is far higher than amongst the rest of the population.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

No it’s not.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

20% isn’t higher? Anyone who wants to have their genitals mutilated is truly sick. Persuading children that this is right for them is beyond criminal.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Oh yes it is.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Michaels

Oh no it’s not! (she said smiling).

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Michaels

Oh no it’s not! (she said smiling).

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

20% isn’t higher? Anyone who wants to have their genitals mutilated is truly sick. Persuading children that this is right for them is beyond criminal.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Oh yes it is.

Игорь Ижщенков
Игорь Ижщенков
22 days ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Is it?
At least there’s some good news, finally.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

No it’s not.

Игорь Ижщенков
Игорь Ижщенков
22 days ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Is it?
At least there’s some good news, finally.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Ah you spotted the difference between grannies and trannies. Well done!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

An example of taking it and running with it. Is there anything you’ve forgotten to throw in the mix?

Игорь Ижщенков
Игорь Ижщенков
22 days ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

It’s not contradictory.
It’s merely pure Evil, something that has existed since the ions of time.
What is relatively new, at least in our lives, is supposedly good people just sitting back and allowing evil to run rampant.
Children mutilated with transgender surgery, public elementary schools exposing kindergarten kids to adult male drag queens, governments forcing toxic experimental vaccines on the world population, and everyone just sits there and does nothing.

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

When i think of lineker i often wonder how people in the poor parts of his home town would receive him now. Perhaps “Stokie Steve” in private eye has the answer, albeit from the other side of the Midlands?

Last edited 8 months ago by mike otter
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

The deep irony of that threat is that the suicide rate amongst those who have ‘transitioned’ (had their bodies surgically mutilated) is far higher than amongst the rest of the population.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

Ah you spotted the difference between grannies and trannies. Well done!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

An example of taking it and running with it. Is there anything you’ve forgotten to throw in the mix?

Игорь Ижщенков
Игорь Ижщенков
22 days ago
Reply to  Helen Hughes

It’s not contradictory.
It’s merely pure Evil, something that has existed since the ions of time.
What is relatively new, at least in our lives, is supposedly good people just sitting back and allowing evil to run rampant.
Children mutilated with transgender surgery, public elementary schools exposing kindergarten kids to adult male drag queens, governments forcing toxic experimental vaccines on the world population, and everyone just sits there and does nothing.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

The slippery slope has applied in EVERY SINGLE EUTHANASIA PROGRAMME EVER PUT IN PLACE. While I know those who think life isn’t a gift, and suffering isn’t to be lived with, don’t like this fact, it is so.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

It doesn’t have to be so. In America the knee-jerk reaction to the opioid crisis is that now noone can get any effective pain medication. I hear the same knee-jerk hysteria here.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

It doesn’t have to be so. In America the knee-jerk reaction to the opioid crisis is that now noone can get any effective pain medication. I hear the same knee-jerk hysteria here.

Betsy Arehart
Betsy Arehart
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

In the end, the extreme ideology gets its way.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

communism works too, it just hasnt been tried yet

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

It seems extraordinary that in Trudeau’s performatively ‘caring-sharing-ultra-progressive’ Canada there are instances of people seeking their own death, not because they really want to end it all, but because they’re given inadequate government support to pay for treatment.
More sinister still is a recent advert on Canadian TV, for a big retail chain, extolling not merely the morality but “the beauty” of assisted suicide, as though the policy is virtuous enough to be in line with the “brand values” the company wishes to promote. It’s the stuff of dystopian sci-fi.
All Is Beauty – YouTube
Imagine, say, a John Lewis advertisement that reassured you that they’re on your side, that they understand how difficult the cost of living crisis is for their customers, and that if only Granny would forego her expensive medical care and agree to being pushed off her perch then the rest of the family could get that lovely new sofa in the January sales, not to mention freeing up a house for the kids to sell.
We’re not quite there, yet – but this is where it starts. Normalising assisted suicide is the first step to pressuring people that it’s somehow the responsible choice to take.
Which celebrity would be shameless enough to front such a campaign, I wonder?
Pehaps if Walkers Crisps tire of that gurning Toby-jug of Woke, he might do it. ……
“Dignitas. ….. Because …. why be a burden?”

Robin Westerman
Robin Westerman
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Putin offers a free service. You don’t need to ask.

Helen Hughes
Helen Hughes
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

As you mention transgenderism, what leapt to my mind was the way the threat of suicide is used to persuade parents or partners of people believing they’ve been born with the wrong set of genitalia to affirm this belief to the point of “medical transition”. The mental pain of gender dysphoria is to be cured by drugs and operations paid for by the state, whilst now Canada seems to be pushing for mental pain caused by anything else to be treated by assisted suicide, to save the state money…
The contradictions of this Brave New World are increasingly breathtaking!

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

The slippery slope has applied in EVERY SINGLE EUTHANASIA PROGRAMME EVER PUT IN PLACE. While I know those who think life isn’t a gift, and suffering isn’t to be lived with, don’t like this fact, it is so.

Betsy Arehart
Betsy Arehart
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

In the end, the extreme ideology gets its way.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  J Bryant

communism works too, it just hasnt been tried yet

J Bryant
J Bryant
8 months ago

I believe assisted suicide should be available to terminally ill people or people suffering from unrelenting pain without hope of cure. I never really bought into the slippery slope argument, but now I’m faced with what’s happening in Canada.
The author expresses her surprise that ultra-liberal Canada tolerates what almost amounts to assisted execution of the despondent but otherwise healthy, but she doesn’t speculate about why Canadians tolerate this expansion of their Maids program.
Modern progressivism (and Canada surely has one of the most “progressive” governments on the planet) has taken the primacy of the individual to an absurd extreme. If a person wants to be a different gender then let them state their preference and we must all respect that decision. If a person wants to be a dog then we must all respect and affirm that decision. Is it such a stretch, under this form of extreme individualism, that if a generally healthy person wants to die then we must respect, affirm and, indeed, facilitate that choice too?
There is a slippery slope at work, but it doesn’t apply to a well-regulated assisted suicide program. It applies to an extreme ideology that places the unfettered beliefs, wishes and, sometimes, fantasies, of the individual at the heart of society.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
8 months ago

Looking at the demographic profile of Western countries, I conclude that (a) laws enabling assisted suicide will be passed in most jurisdictions and (b) vast numbers of elderly patients will be shown the door.
We should remember what happened during the pandemic in care homes.

Rick Lawrence
Rick Lawrence
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Your last sentence is nonsense. Yes, many care home residents did not survive COVID but to imply that a policy existed to deliberately allow residents to succumb to the illness is a conspiracy theory. What happened was the result of dimwit ideas and mismanagement.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
8 months ago
Reply to  Rick Lawrence

Some of us were screaming from the rooftops that emptying the hospitals would kill a lot of people BEFORE it happened.
Prior to Covid we were hearing on the news every night about the ‘care homes crisis’. Never hear a word about that now.
Then there is the small matter of putting residents with Covid on the LCP.
Maybe I just got ‘lucky’ in predicting all that before it happened. You can call all that a ‘conspiracy theory’, or call me a cynic, if it makes you feel better.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Yes, it’s a conspiracy theory you’ve got going there.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Yes, it’s a conspiracy theory you’ve got going there.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Rick Lawrence

Exactly.

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
8 months ago
Reply to  Rick Lawrence

Some of us were screaming from the rooftops that emptying the hospitals would kill a lot of people BEFORE it happened.
Prior to Covid we were hearing on the news every night about the ‘care homes crisis’. Never hear a word about that now.
Then there is the small matter of putting residents with Covid on the LCP.
Maybe I just got ‘lucky’ in predicting all that before it happened. You can call all that a ‘conspiracy theory’, or call me a cynic, if it makes you feel better.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Rick Lawrence

Exactly.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Even though there are many of us within both the wider UK Christian community, and amongst disabled groups (Tanni Grey-Thomson for instance), who fight against this tooth and nail, I am afraid that I agree with your summation of the situation.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

What? What happened?

Rick Lawrence
Rick Lawrence
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Your last sentence is nonsense. Yes, many care home residents did not survive COVID but to imply that a policy existed to deliberately allow residents to succumb to the illness is a conspiracy theory. What happened was the result of dimwit ideas and mismanagement.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

Even though there are many of us within both the wider UK Christian community, and amongst disabled groups (Tanni Grey-Thomson for instance), who fight against this tooth and nail, I am afraid that I agree with your summation of the situation.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Nik Jewell

What? What happened?

Nik Jewell
Nik Jewell
8 months ago

Looking at the demographic profile of Western countries, I conclude that (a) laws enabling assisted suicide will be passed in most jurisdictions and (b) vast numbers of elderly patients will be shown the door.
We should remember what happened during the pandemic in care homes.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
8 months ago

“What’s especially puzzling about Canada, of all places, having such loose restrictions on assisted dying is that Justin Trudeau’s government is famously — I would say notoriously — Left-wing. It’s the Left that traditionally prides itself on concern for the “vulnerable” (a ubiquitous catch-all adjective I’ve come to detest).”
People on the Left also like to label themselves “tolerant”, which – in my all-too-frequent experience – has proven to be absolutely not the case. I can’t stand the term “vulnerable” anymore either.
Even though this article refers to a number of people with dreadful conditions who must be going through unbearable suffering – Canada’s ultra-liberal approach is indicative of a society which no longer considers the individual as strong enough to cope with anything. If being offended by some innocuous joke or comment is now a serious transgression which can lead to cancellation of the joke/comment-maker because the addressee can no longer be expected to just shrug it off – where does it all end?
It all boils down to the following question: do we see the individual as strong, as capable of a certain level of fortitude and ability/willingness to suffer? Or do we see them as chronically weak and – oh Lord – vulnerable – in need of protection at all times from the vagaries of life (which of course include suffering)?

Last edited 8 months ago by Katharine Eyre
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

This is the precise point. It’s no surprise you’ve identified it; it’s a frequent occurrence.

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

“vulnerable” in lefty speak means freaks, drunks, junkies and ppl attracted to the same sex.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

That’s not what the word means.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

That’s not what the word means.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Furthermore, the definition of ‘suffering’ is remarkably elastic in the hands of these people. Which inevitably means the slippery slope – as has happened everywhere that euthanasia has been ‘legalised’.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

As someone who identifies as vulnerable I object to your trying to stigmatize the word. I presume you feel the same way about the word victim since you come from the school of “just pull yourself up by your bootstraps”. This is alpha, male identified and doing the work of patriachy.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

How about man or woman up and take responsibility for your own life instead of being an attention demanding, narcissistic crybaby?

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Patriarchy? Oh dear. It’s not 1950 anymore. We actually in a matriarchy, which is why the world is f^cked.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I’m not trying to stigmatise it – simply push it back into the scope of its proper use where it can once again be taken seriously. Along with “stress”, “mental health”, “populism”, “fascism” and any number of other words which have been subject to inflationary and distorting use in recent times.
Also: how is being of a “pull yourself together” mentality in any way exclusively male? This implies that women are, by their very natures, weak – which in my opinion does far more to support any patriarchy which may exist than being an open supporter of the “toughen up your hide and get on with it” school of thought.
I’m also a bit confused by the notion of “identifying as vulnerable”. This sounds pretty subjective – surely if someone is vulnerable in the traditional sense of the word, then there is some kind of objective element to it that outsiders can see and understand? Being able to simply “Identify as vulnerable” allows people to just decide to be weak and play the victim card. Which is something I am very definitely against.

Last edited 8 months ago by Katharine Eyre
Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Bravo, well put. ‘Victims’ need to be called out for manipulating people with their self-pitying crap. Sympathy and empathy should be reserved for the people who truly are victims.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

And how do you decide who is a victim and who isn’t, Mr. jugemental.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

In a culture where paranoiacs complain about ‘microagressions’ ‘misgendering’, that ‘words are violence’ etc, and use these ridiculous concepts to attack reasonable human beings via ugly, vile, cowardly mob action (see JK Rowling) lines need to be drawn. Talk about judgemental.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Are you saying that JKRowling is being attacked or that she’s doing the attacking? It’s not clear what you mean. I support JK Rowling, which may throw you off a bit as far as judging me goes.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Obviously that she’s the one being targeted for stating biological facts and standing up for women’s rights, which are being eradicated by the trans lobby. Glad to hear you support her but you seem to also support the trans activists, which is worse than self-defeating for anyone who supports women’s rights.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Obviously that she’s the one being targeted for stating biological facts and standing up for women’s rights, which are being eradicated by the trans lobby. Glad to hear you support her but you seem to also support the trans activists, which is worse than self-defeating for anyone who supports women’s rights.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Are you saying that JKRowling is being attacked or that she’s doing the attacking? It’s not clear what you mean. I support JK Rowling, which may throw you off a bit as far as judging me goes.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

In a culture where paranoiacs complain about ‘microagressions’ ‘misgendering’, that ‘words are violence’ etc, and use these ridiculous concepts to attack reasonable human beings via ugly, vile, cowardly mob action (see JK Rowling) lines need to be drawn. Talk about judgemental.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

And how do you decide who is a victim and who isn’t, Mr. jugemental.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

That’s exactly what I said you’d say about anyone being a victim as well as being vulnerable. They’re both feminine as opposed to masculine traits, and as such looked down on in a misogynistic culture. Men shouldn’t be feminine, women shouldn’t be masculine. To be vulnerable is to be feminine. If you don’t like me saying I “identify” as vulnerable then how about “I am” vulnerable and I’ve also been “victimized’. That doesn’t mean I’m not also strong. One can have both qualities.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Bravo, well put. ‘Victims’ need to be called out for manipulating people with their self-pitying crap. Sympathy and empathy should be reserved for the people who truly are victims.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

That’s exactly what I said you’d say about anyone being a victim as well as being vulnerable. They’re both feminine as opposed to masculine traits, and as such looked down on in a misogynistic culture. Men shouldn’t be feminine, women shouldn’t be masculine. To be vulnerable is to be feminine. If you don’t like me saying I “identify” as vulnerable then how about “I am” vulnerable and I’ve also been “victimized’. That doesn’t mean I’m not also strong. One can have both qualities.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

How about man or woman up and take responsibility for your own life instead of being an attention demanding, narcissistic crybaby?

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Patriarchy? Oh dear. It’s not 1950 anymore. We actually in a matriarchy, which is why the world is f^cked.

Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I’m not trying to stigmatise it – simply push it back into the scope of its proper use where it can once again be taken seriously. Along with “stress”, “mental health”, “populism”, “fascism” and any number of other words which have been subject to inflationary and distorting use in recent times.
Also: how is being of a “pull yourself together” mentality in any way exclusively male? This implies that women are, by their very natures, weak – which in my opinion does far more to support any patriarchy which may exist than being an open supporter of the “toughen up your hide and get on with it” school of thought.
I’m also a bit confused by the notion of “identifying as vulnerable”. This sounds pretty subjective – surely if someone is vulnerable in the traditional sense of the word, then there is some kind of objective element to it that outsiders can see and understand? Being able to simply “Identify as vulnerable” allows people to just decide to be weak and play the victim card. Which is something I am very definitely against.

Last edited 8 months ago by Katharine Eyre
Steve Murray
Steve Murray
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

This is the precise point. It’s no surprise you’ve identified it; it’s a frequent occurrence.

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

“vulnerable” in lefty speak means freaks, drunks, junkies and ppl attracted to the same sex.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

Furthermore, the definition of ‘suffering’ is remarkably elastic in the hands of these people. Which inevitably means the slippery slope – as has happened everywhere that euthanasia has been ‘legalised’.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Katharine Eyre

As someone who identifies as vulnerable I object to your trying to stigmatize the word. I presume you feel the same way about the word victim since you come from the school of “just pull yourself up by your bootstraps”. This is alpha, male identified and doing the work of patriachy.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Katharine Eyre
Katharine Eyre
8 months ago

“What’s especially puzzling about Canada, of all places, having such loose restrictions on assisted dying is that Justin Trudeau’s government is famously — I would say notoriously — Left-wing. It’s the Left that traditionally prides itself on concern for the “vulnerable” (a ubiquitous catch-all adjective I’ve come to detest).”
People on the Left also like to label themselves “tolerant”, which – in my all-too-frequent experience – has proven to be absolutely not the case. I can’t stand the term “vulnerable” anymore either.
Even though this article refers to a number of people with dreadful conditions who must be going through unbearable suffering – Canada’s ultra-liberal approach is indicative of a society which no longer considers the individual as strong enough to cope with anything. If being offended by some innocuous joke or comment is now a serious transgression which can lead to cancellation of the joke/comment-maker because the addressee can no longer be expected to just shrug it off – where does it all end?
It all boils down to the following question: do we see the individual as strong, as capable of a certain level of fortitude and ability/willingness to suffer? Or do we see them as chronically weak and – oh Lord – vulnerable – in need of protection at all times from the vagaries of life (which of course include suffering)?

Last edited 8 months ago by Katharine Eyre
Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
8 months ago

Isn’t there a teeny-weeny bit of a conflict of interest here? The gubmint stands to save a ton of money with its Final Solution of the pensions and health care question.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

This point has been made forcefully in Canada, to no avail.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
8 months ago

That is the very definition of a slippery slope.

Betsy Arehart
Betsy Arehart
8 months ago

Absolutely.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

This point has been made forcefully in Canada, to no avail.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
8 months ago

That is the very definition of a slippery slope.

Betsy Arehart
Betsy Arehart
8 months ago

Absolutely.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
8 months ago

Isn’t there a teeny-weeny bit of a conflict of interest here? The gubmint stands to save a ton of money with its Final Solution of the pensions and health care question.

Derek Bryce
Derek Bryce
8 months ago

I’ve shared this before here regarding euthanasia but it’s worth repeating. My family has direct experience of MAID. Most of my family live in British Columbia, Canada. My mother’s partner, aged 80+, had made clear when MAID was introduced that should he ever be diagnosed with a terminal illness of the kind Ms. Shriver details, he’d want to use it. A fit octogenarian, he’d nonetheless been experiencing worsening cognitive and physical difficulties for a few months. This reached a point where he and my mother decided he needed to consult his GP and ask for a CT scan … right when covid restrictions hit in March 2020. Of course, his GP refused to see him in person ‘cos Covid’ (that’s a whole other story). After a couple of months of rapid deterioration and increasingly frantic calls by my mum, pleading for help, he was eventually taken into hospital. The next day mum received a call saying that he had an aggressive gliboplastoma, that he had a couple of months left, tops, and that palliative care would kick in immediately. My mother notified local health authorities of his wishes re MAID and, shortly thereafter, a doctor and nurse visited their home to administer the shot and he died, with as much dignity as he could muster, in my mother’s arms.

I agree with Ms. Shriver that this is where state sponsored suicide (if any society goes down that road) should begin and end. While I no longer live in Canada, I’ve been appalled to read about the mission creep there since. What struck me though, was that while the provincial health authority showed a lackadaisical interest in his life while he was still alive and undiagnosed, they kicked rapidly into gear once he’d asked them to kill him. We should be ferociously sceptical about the motivations of the bureaucratic ghouls who allegedly serve us. As Lionel Shriver says, we are often just an inconvenience to what passes for their spreadsheet morality.

Last edited 8 months ago by Derek Bryce
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Derek Bryce

What you term ‘mission creep’, and i would call moving into legalised murder, is inevitable once the gates are opened.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

No its not.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Again with the killer arguments.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Michaels

That’s funny, Mike! I’m just too tired to give more than that, but I feel I must show support for our side, since it seems to be a matter of sides.

Adam Grant
Adam Grant
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Fortunately there’s a fairly broad base of support for assisted dying in Canada (where I’m from). Like you my biggest fear is ending up in an old-folks home, and once (hopefully many years hence) it’s clear that’s where I’m headed, I’ll be requesting MAID, which I am owed after my many years as a taxpayer.

Adam Grant
Adam Grant
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Fortunately there’s a fairly broad base of support for assisted dying in Canada (where I’m from). Like you my biggest fear is ending up in an old-folks home, and once (hopefully many years hence) it’s clear that’s where I’m headed, I’ll be requesting MAID, which I am owed after my many years as a taxpayer.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Michaels

That’s funny, Mike! I’m just too tired to give more than that, but I feel I must show support for our side, since it seems to be a matter of sides.

Mike Michaels
Mike Michaels
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Again with the killer arguments.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

No its not.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Derek Bryce

What you term ‘mission creep’, and i would call moving into legalised murder, is inevitable once the gates are opened.

Derek Bryce
Derek Bryce
8 months ago

I’ve shared this before here regarding euthanasia but it’s worth repeating. My family has direct experience of MAID. Most of my family live in British Columbia, Canada. My mother’s partner, aged 80+, had made clear when MAID was introduced that should he ever be diagnosed with a terminal illness of the kind Ms. Shriver details, he’d want to use it. A fit octogenarian, he’d nonetheless been experiencing worsening cognitive and physical difficulties for a few months. This reached a point where he and my mother decided he needed to consult his GP and ask for a CT scan … right when covid restrictions hit in March 2020. Of course, his GP refused to see him in person ‘cos Covid’ (that’s a whole other story). After a couple of months of rapid deterioration and increasingly frantic calls by my mum, pleading for help, he was eventually taken into hospital. The next day mum received a call saying that he had an aggressive gliboplastoma, that he had a couple of months left, tops, and that palliative care would kick in immediately. My mother notified local health authorities of his wishes re MAID and, shortly thereafter, a doctor and nurse visited their home to administer the shot and he died, with as much dignity as he could muster, in my mother’s arms.

I agree with Ms. Shriver that this is where state sponsored suicide (if any society goes down that road) should begin and end. While I no longer live in Canada, I’ve been appalled to read about the mission creep there since. What struck me though, was that while the provincial health authority showed a lackadaisical interest in his life while he was still alive and undiagnosed, they kicked rapidly into gear once he’d asked them to kill him. We should be ferociously sceptical about the motivations of the bureaucratic ghouls who allegedly serve us. As Lionel Shriver says, we are often just an inconvenience to what passes for their spreadsheet morality.

Last edited 8 months ago by Derek Bryce
Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
8 months ago

In the phraseology used by Jonathan Sumption in a completely different context, there should be a law against assisted dying and it should [sometimes] be broken. That was in fact how things worked in this country for many years and the system worked reasonably well.

Last edited 8 months ago by Malcolm Knott
mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

I believe that this is the case in the UK which wasn’t properly referenced in the article. My understanding is that if the case in genuine then the CPS will drop it but not if you help off your rich aunt for having a cold. I get the impression that we also have the same view on drugs and prostitution also; better to keep it illegal and back off when needed then simply open the floodgates completely.

William Perry
William Perry
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

I’m going to be controversial and say that exactly that approach – a presumption against legalisation, coupled in genuinely exceptional circumstances with the law being prepared to turn a blind eye – is how the issue of abortion should have been dealt with.
(Edit) Yes, of course the difficulty is then how to decide what circumstances are “genuinely exceptional” – and how to determine where the absolute red lines lie which claims of “compassion” are not sufficient to override.

Last edited 8 months ago by William Perry
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  William Perry

Agreed, and with your addendum. As a way forward it would be far less dangerous, and ungodly, than where we are headed.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  William Perry

Both abortion and suicide should be a choice. It’s my body to do with what I will, and it’s none of your business.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Trouble is, Clare, that the fetus is not a woman’s body.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Well it’s not going to live without her.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

That’s true, Clare, but I don’t see your point. Infants can’t survive without adults to care for them, after all, and neither can some adults with physiological or psychological problems–and neither can most old people. Does that make any of these people less than human or unworthy of life?

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

That’s true, Clare, but I don’t see your point. Infants can’t survive without adults to care for them, after all, and neither can some adults with physiological or psychological problems–and neither can most old people. Does that make any of these people less than human or unworthy of life?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul Nathanson

Well it’s not going to live without her.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Trouble is, Clare, that the fetus is not a woman’s body.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  William Perry

How about we all get to do what we want with our own bodies.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  William Perry

Agreed, and with your addendum. As a way forward it would be far less dangerous, and ungodly, than where we are headed.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  William Perry

Both abortion and suicide should be a choice. It’s my body to do with what I will, and it’s none of your business.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  William Perry

How about we all get to do what we want with our own bodies.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

Until some chap called Starmer became head of the CPS this was indeed the case. And then he simply opened the flood gates by reserving judgement about prosecution to himself, and all too frequently avoiding doing so.

Last edited 8 months ago by Dominic S
William Perry
William Perry
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

I’m going to be controversial and say that exactly that approach – a presumption against legalisation, coupled in genuinely exceptional circumstances with the law being prepared to turn a blind eye – is how the issue of abortion should have been dealt with.
(Edit) Yes, of course the difficulty is then how to decide what circumstances are “genuinely exceptional” – and how to determine where the absolute red lines lie which claims of “compassion” are not sufficient to override.

Last edited 8 months ago by William Perry
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

Until some chap called Starmer became head of the CPS this was indeed the case. And then he simply opened the flood gates by reserving judgement about prosecution to himself, and all too frequently avoiding doing so.

Last edited 8 months ago by Dominic S
mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Malcolm Knott

I believe that this is the case in the UK which wasn’t properly referenced in the article. My understanding is that if the case in genuine then the CPS will drop it but not if you help off your rich aunt for having a cold. I get the impression that we also have the same view on drugs and prostitution also; better to keep it illegal and back off when needed then simply open the floodgates completely.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
8 months ago

In the phraseology used by Jonathan Sumption in a completely different context, there should be a law against assisted dying and it should [sometimes] be broken. That was in fact how things worked in this country for many years and the system worked reasonably well.

Last edited 8 months ago by Malcolm Knott
Michael Walsh
Michael Walsh
8 months ago

Canada is the WEF/Davocrat equivalent of the Wuhan virology lab, the place where they test their most execrable ideas. Euthanasia is their Final Solution to the problem of unfunded retirement/health care entitlements. First sold as “freedom” and “choice” then it is sold by social pressure (your hospital “ethicist”) and finally it will be mandated. At least for those without children to fight for them.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
8 months ago
Reply to  Michael Walsh

I would add The Netherlands to that too.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
8 months ago
Reply to  Michael Walsh

I would add The Netherlands to that too.

Michael Walsh
Michael Walsh
8 months ago

Canada is the WEF/Davocrat equivalent of the Wuhan virology lab, the place where they test their most execrable ideas. Euthanasia is their Final Solution to the problem of unfunded retirement/health care entitlements. First sold as “freedom” and “choice” then it is sold by social pressure (your hospital “ethicist”) and finally it will be mandated. At least for those without children to fight for them.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
8 months ago

There is something very sinister about it being the State, or representatives thereof, being the source of the final solution.
I agree with the author’s last paragraph. That does still leave the question of what is to be done, where to draw the line. As a bare minimum, I’d suggest the only reason a third party could assist was if for some reason a person was physically incapable of doing the job for themselves. Even that would be open to abuse, but it would at least put some safeguards in place.
It is a curious set of circumstances where the State will allow you to kill yourself, even allow others to help you do so, but will not allow you to take substances that are harmful to your health.
I think it was Robin Williams who referred to suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Inasmuch as eg heroin (painkiller par excellence, apparently for psychological issues too) is a temporary solution to a temporary problem, I wonder how advocates of assisted dying would square that with the belief that heroin shouldn’t be legally available for those who feel they need it. Addiction to the latter is at least reversible. Dying is not.
Very difficult issue, and one that should be debated well beyond the bounds of medical professionals and the bureaucracy.

Last edited 8 months ago by Seb Dakin
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Robin Williams killed himself. I guess he changed his mind.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Increasingly people on the progressive side of things seem quite happy to make heroin freely available. So perhaps that particular contradiction is resolving itself.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Robin Williams killed himself. I guess he changed his mind.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
8 months ago
Reply to  Seb Dakin

Increasingly people on the progressive side of things seem quite happy to make heroin freely available. So perhaps that particular contradiction is resolving itself.

Seb Dakin
Seb Dakin
8 months ago

There is something very sinister about it being the State, or representatives thereof, being the source of the final solution.
I agree with the author’s last paragraph. That does still leave the question of what is to be done, where to draw the line. As a bare minimum, I’d suggest the only reason a third party could assist was if for some reason a person was physically incapable of doing the job for themselves. Even that would be open to abuse, but it would at least put some safeguards in place.
It is a curious set of circumstances where the State will allow you to kill yourself, even allow others to help you do so, but will not allow you to take substances that are harmful to your health.
I think it was Robin Williams who referred to suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Inasmuch as eg heroin (painkiller par excellence, apparently for psychological issues too) is a temporary solution to a temporary problem, I wonder how advocates of assisted dying would square that with the belief that heroin shouldn’t be legally available for those who feel they need it. Addiction to the latter is at least reversible. Dying is not.
Very difficult issue, and one that should be debated well beyond the bounds of medical professionals and the bureaucracy.

Last edited 8 months ago by Seb Dakin
James Kirk
James Kirk
8 months ago

The Left are not a caring sharing entity. The Labour movement wanted to help the poor if only on grounds of poor use of human resources, a potential Einstein living in a slum. They were hijacked over 100 years ago by totalitarians, Orwell’s pigs in the farmhouse who present themselves to the gullible wearing sheep’s clothing. Never such a pig as Trudeau.

James Kirk
James Kirk
8 months ago

The Left are not a caring sharing entity. The Labour movement wanted to help the poor if only on grounds of poor use of human resources, a potential Einstein living in a slum. They were hijacked over 100 years ago by totalitarians, Orwell’s pigs in the farmhouse who present themselves to the gullible wearing sheep’s clothing. Never such a pig as Trudeau.

Chris Milburn
Chris Milburn
8 months ago

Lionel Shriver writes wonderfully. And she “gets” deeply what is happening here in Canada.
I’m a Canadian doc. Some of my patients have chosen MAID (not my doing!). I swing hard libertarian so certainly don’t think suicide should be “illegal” (yeah, it was always ridiculous) like it was. But after initially being a strong advocate for euthanasia, now I think I was on the “wrong side of history”.
I didn’t believe the slippery slope arguments that opponents made (MAID?) back in 2015. But boy were they right.
One of the problems is that the decision on whether to approve a euthanasia request is not made (MAID?) by the most reasonable physician. Patients can shop for the physician with the lowest bar to jump over. One doc in BC is proud that she has euthanized over 400 humans. She is very easily found by Google if a patient set on killing him/herself is refused by the first 5 doctors.
My wife’s uncle died “of cancer”. He didn’t tell the family but he (we are quite sure) ended his life by euthanasia. He had long had issues with depression, anxiety, and addiction off-and-on but had been every well in this regard. He was diagnosed with an incurable lung cancer but one that he could have lived with for many months or even a year or two. We were hoping to have many more visits with him. He was lucid, jocular, and wise. We spoke with him on a Monday and he was robust. Wednesday we heard he was dead. He deprived himself (and us) of many memories, and of the value of his advice and stories.
I think Hippocrates was right in his oath: “Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course.”
https://pairodocs.substack.com/p/assisted-suicide-suffering-and-slippery

Last edited 8 months ago by Chris Milburn
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Chris Milburn

It seems that many people are simply unwilling to admit that they need to be cared for by others. They have no readiness to be dependent on others. Is this desire for euthanasia the final step in the progression to complete human individual self-absorption?

Last edited 8 months ago by Dominic S
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

There aren’t enough caregivers to go around.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

True, too many of them are ‘therapists’ attending to the claims of the self identified ‘vulnerable.

Last edited 8 months ago by Studio Largo
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

And you would know that because………….? starkbreath

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Caregivers are in the medical field, psychotherapists are not.One is hands on, the other is hands off.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

With ‘caregivers’ defined thusly I agree with your initial statement. Wouldn’t call the pill pushers in the psychotherapy field ‘hands off’, though.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

With ‘caregivers’ defined thusly I agree with your initial statement. Wouldn’t call the pill pushers in the psychotherapy field ‘hands off’, though.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

And you would know that because………….? starkbreath

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Caregivers are in the medical field, psychotherapists are not.One is hands on, the other is hands off.

D Mash
D Mash
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

You’re right there aren’t enough care givers to round which is where in a perfect world family steps in. My mother died in 2011 from motor neurone and I would sincerely not wish that on my worst enemy. Having been married for nearly 60 years my father was obviously devastated but after about 8 pr 9 months it was clear to me (and my wife of less than 6 months) that a) he was mentally on a downward spiral and b) at this point wasn’t really capable of looking after himself properly. We let our house go and put 99 percent of our stuff in storage, moved into the one upstairs room at my fathers house and looked after him. Dinner every night at the table with conversation (and wine) convinced him to renew his passport when he insisted he had no use for one and over the next 10 years we all travelled to New York, Berlin and Rome. Sadly we lost him in March 2021at the age of 90 to a sudden cardiac event but one of the things that sticks in my mind is when I told one of my old school friends we were moving in to look after Dad, he immediately retorted “you’ve just put 5 years on his life” with no prompting from me. I wonder how much of the enthusiasm for allowing people to voluntarily “check out” (genuinely debilitating dementia related issues notwithstanding) is just more a reflection of the lack of family and community support in our currently self obsessed world. Did he drive me nuts sometimes? Of course, do I feel guilty that we spent the first 10 years of our married life looking after my father? Undoubtedly, but, on balance still feels like it was the right things to do. But what about the the people that don’t have family, or don’t have family in the same area/country? It all feels like a terrifyingly slippery slope…

Last edited 8 months ago by D Mash
Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

True, too many of them are ‘therapists’ attending to the claims of the self identified ‘vulnerable.

Last edited 8 months ago by Studio Largo
D Mash
D Mash
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

You’re right there aren’t enough care givers to round which is where in a perfect world family steps in. My mother died in 2011 from motor neurone and I would sincerely not wish that on my worst enemy. Having been married for nearly 60 years my father was obviously devastated but after about 8 pr 9 months it was clear to me (and my wife of less than 6 months) that a) he was mentally on a downward spiral and b) at this point wasn’t really capable of looking after himself properly. We let our house go and put 99 percent of our stuff in storage, moved into the one upstairs room at my fathers house and looked after him. Dinner every night at the table with conversation (and wine) convinced him to renew his passport when he insisted he had no use for one and over the next 10 years we all travelled to New York, Berlin and Rome. Sadly we lost him in March 2021at the age of 90 to a sudden cardiac event but one of the things that sticks in my mind is when I told one of my old school friends we were moving in to look after Dad, he immediately retorted “you’ve just put 5 years on his life” with no prompting from me. I wonder how much of the enthusiasm for allowing people to voluntarily “check out” (genuinely debilitating dementia related issues notwithstanding) is just more a reflection of the lack of family and community support in our currently self obsessed world. Did he drive me nuts sometimes? Of course, do I feel guilty that we spent the first 10 years of our married life looking after my father? Undoubtedly, but, on balance still feels like it was the right things to do. But what about the the people that don’t have family, or don’t have family in the same area/country? It all feels like a terrifyingly slippery slope…

Last edited 8 months ago by D Mash
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

There aren’t enough caregivers to go around.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Chris Milburn

It seems that many people are simply unwilling to admit that they need to be cared for by others. They have no readiness to be dependent on others. Is this desire for euthanasia the final step in the progression to complete human individual self-absorption?

Last edited 8 months ago by Dominic S
Chris Milburn
Chris Milburn
8 months ago

Lionel Shriver writes wonderfully. And she “gets” deeply what is happening here in Canada.
I’m a Canadian doc. Some of my patients have chosen MAID (not my doing!). I swing hard libertarian so certainly don’t think suicide should be “illegal” (yeah, it was always ridiculous) like it was. But after initially being a strong advocate for euthanasia, now I think I was on the “wrong side of history”.
I didn’t believe the slippery slope arguments that opponents made (MAID?) back in 2015. But boy were they right.
One of the problems is that the decision on whether to approve a euthanasia request is not made (MAID?) by the most reasonable physician. Patients can shop for the physician with the lowest bar to jump over. One doc in BC is proud that she has euthanized over 400 humans. She is very easily found by Google if a patient set on killing him/herself is refused by the first 5 doctors.
My wife’s uncle died “of cancer”. He didn’t tell the family but he (we are quite sure) ended his life by euthanasia. He had long had issues with depression, anxiety, and addiction off-and-on but had been every well in this regard. He was diagnosed with an incurable lung cancer but one that he could have lived with for many months or even a year or two. We were hoping to have many more visits with him. He was lucid, jocular, and wise. We spoke with him on a Monday and he was robust. Wednesday we heard he was dead. He deprived himself (and us) of many memories, and of the value of his advice and stories.
I think Hippocrates was right in his oath: “Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course.”
https://pairodocs.substack.com/p/assisted-suicide-suffering-and-slippery

Last edited 8 months ago by Chris Milburn
Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
8 months ago

Partly in the light of current and past reports of the fallibility of medical and management staff working in our National Health Service, I remain of the firm opinion that the sustaining of life and easing of pain must be the equal and overriding obligations of all medical practitioners. Anything less devalues the miracle of life and places us on the slippery slope towards Utilitarianism – or worse.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Malcolm Webb

yes. Absolutely so.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Malcolm Webb

yes. Absolutely so.

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
8 months ago

Partly in the light of current and past reports of the fallibility of medical and management staff working in our National Health Service, I remain of the firm opinion that the sustaining of life and easing of pain must be the equal and overriding obligations of all medical practitioners. Anything less devalues the miracle of life and places us on the slippery slope towards Utilitarianism – or worse.

Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago

I don’t know how to solve this problem, but I don’t think that Canada has found an adequate one (and I live in Canada). One idea that comes up in both the article and many comments is that arguments over euthanasia or assisted suicide–that is, about life and death–are ultimately about personal choice or personal freedom. This is the logical conclusion of individualism, after all, and, in a more specifically political sense, of liberalism or libertarianism. But no discussion of this topic should be limited to that, because there’s no such thing as an autonomous or perfectly independent person.
To be fully human is, by the definition of our species, to be inter-dependent. Our lives are valuable not only to ourselves but also to our families, friends, neighbors, allies and, in short, our communities. This has always been understood, until now, as a fundamental feature of human existence. Every society claims some level of loyalty, effort and even self-sacrifice from its members. Otherwise, how could it survive? But that practical consideration is matched, whether explicitly or implicitly, by a moral one. To allow suicide is not only to imperil the community in extremis but also, ultimately, to elevate self-interest over the interests of others in everyday life.
It’s true that some societies have permitted or even demanded suicide. The Romans and the Japanese come to mind. But even they have done so only in very specific circumstances. In both of these cases, for instance, the custom applied only to aristocrats who had failed the state in some way. Suicide not only allowed them to escape the humiliation of being executed but actually strengthened the value of courage. Some small-scale societies “permit” old people to starve themselves in times of famine, moreover, but nonetheless uphold the value of communal survival. Permitting or even demanding suicide in any of these circumstances has nothing to do with avoiding pain and therefore with personal self-interest at the cost of communal strength.(Military conscription in modern states entails a phenomenon that’s closely related in some ways to suicide, by the way, but also to human sacrifice by the state and even to atonement theology in Christian or post-Christian states. It’s a huge topic in itself, which Katherine Young and I discuss at length in Replacing Misandry, and would take me away from the point of immediate concern here.)
The current demand for (presumably) self-willed death are legitimated in terms of “compassion.” But this demand should raise some questions more often than it does. Compassion for whom? For the sick and suffering? For their families? For society? For the state?

Last edited 8 months ago by Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
Paul Nathanson
8 months ago

I don’t know how to solve this problem, but I don’t think that Canada has found an adequate one (and I live in Canada). One idea that comes up in both the article and many comments is that arguments over euthanasia or assisted suicide–that is, about life and death–are ultimately about personal choice or personal freedom. This is the logical conclusion of individualism, after all, and, in a more specifically political sense, of liberalism or libertarianism. But no discussion of this topic should be limited to that, because there’s no such thing as an autonomous or perfectly independent person.
To be fully human is, by the definition of our species, to be inter-dependent. Our lives are valuable not only to ourselves but also to our families, friends, neighbors, allies and, in short, our communities. This has always been understood, until now, as a fundamental feature of human existence. Every society claims some level of loyalty, effort and even self-sacrifice from its members. Otherwise, how could it survive? But that practical consideration is matched, whether explicitly or implicitly, by a moral one. To allow suicide is not only to imperil the community in extremis but also, ultimately, to elevate self-interest over the interests of others in everyday life.
It’s true that some societies have permitted or even demanded suicide. The Romans and the Japanese come to mind. But even they have done so only in very specific circumstances. In both of these cases, for instance, the custom applied only to aristocrats who had failed the state in some way. Suicide not only allowed them to escape the humiliation of being executed but actually strengthened the value of courage. Some small-scale societies “permit” old people to starve themselves in times of famine, moreover, but nonetheless uphold the value of communal survival. Permitting or even demanding suicide in any of these circumstances has nothing to do with avoiding pain and therefore with personal self-interest at the cost of communal strength.(Military conscription in modern states entails a phenomenon that’s closely related in some ways to suicide, by the way, but also to human sacrifice by the state and even to atonement theology in Christian or post-Christian states. It’s a huge topic in itself, which Katherine Young and I discuss at length in Replacing Misandry, and would take me away from the point of immediate concern here.)
The current demand for (presumably) self-willed death are legitimated in terms of “compassion.” But this demand should raise some questions more often than it does. Compassion for whom? For the sick and suffering? For their families? For society? For the state?

Last edited 8 months ago by Paul Nathanson
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
8 months ago

I guess selling organs will be next on the list. Someone is poor and feeling blue, but they a healthy liver, maybe the right thing to do is let them sell it for $200,000 to help their family. Win-win for everyone.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Win-win until you are snatched off the street by men in a black van for your kidneys to be stolen and sold via the back door into hospitals all around your city.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

Soylent Green, almost.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

That is paranoia.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

Soylent Green, almost.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

That is paranoia.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The US creating an opt-out rather than opt-in for organ donation would probably be a better start though.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

The UK has already put in place an opt-out for organ donation. However, they didn’t actually tell people, or make it easy to do. So most people, unbeknownst to them, are in.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Thats my point. The UK already has one so no need to open up a shady black-market in human organs. I’ve spent no time researching this but I would imagine that the UK now broadly has more human organs than it needs (since the change-over) and wouldn’t be reliant on buying them in.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Another paranoid.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Thats my point. The UK already has one so no need to open up a shady black-market in human organs. I’ve spent no time researching this but I would imagine that the UK now broadly has more human organs than it needs (since the change-over) and wouldn’t be reliant on buying them in.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Another paranoid.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  mattyslinger

The UK has already put in place an opt-out for organ donation. However, they didn’t actually tell people, or make it easy to do. So most people, unbeknownst to them, are in.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Don’t you see how you’ve taken assisted suiside and let your imagination run wild!!

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Win-win until you are snatched off the street by men in a black van for your kidneys to be stolen and sold via the back door into hospitals all around your city.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The US creating an opt-out rather than opt-in for organ donation would probably be a better start though.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Don’t you see how you’ve taken assisted suiside and let your imagination run wild!!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
8 months ago

I guess selling organs will be next on the list. Someone is poor and feeling blue, but they a healthy liver, maybe the right thing to do is let them sell it for $200,000 to help their family. Win-win for everyone.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
8 months ago

A doctor at my practice opined to me that whatever the rules on euthanasia it should not be performed by doctors. It is not a medical procedure – any more than the lethal injection delivered in some US prisons is. Doctors should not be involved in killing people.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

When this was being discussed in parties across Canada, many doctors made the same point.

Its not doctor science that tells people if their life is worth living!
Another example of the religion of science getting it all wrong.

Last edited 8 months ago by Bret Larson
Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

It’s a moral issue, not a medical or scientific one. As long as no doctor is compelled to do MAiD doctors have no more moral authority than anyone else.

Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

It’s a moral issue, not a medical or scientific one. As long as no doctor is compelled to do MAiD doctors have no more moral authority than anyone else.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

I’d make the same argument about cosmetic surgery. It’s not medicine, it’s a different thing entirely, and can be opposed to the principles of good medicine. Accepting it means watering down the obligations of doctors in a basic way.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

When this was being discussed in parties across Canada, many doctors made the same point.

Its not doctor science that tells people if their life is worth living!
Another example of the religion of science getting it all wrong.

Last edited 8 months ago by Bret Larson
M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Mott

I’d make the same argument about cosmetic surgery. It’s not medicine, it’s a different thing entirely, and can be opposed to the principles of good medicine. Accepting it means watering down the obligations of doctors in a basic way.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
8 months ago

A doctor at my practice opined to me that whatever the rules on euthanasia it should not be performed by doctors. It is not a medical procedure – any more than the lethal injection delivered in some US prisons is. Doctors should not be involved in killing people.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago

Gosh! I’m glad I don’t live in Canada, I would have been ‘done for’ years ago.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

And that would be a bad thing?

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

When all else fails, there’s always cheap sarcasm.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Actually, Charles has a rather sarcastic sense of humor, himself, so I suspect he may laugh, unlike you.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Actually, Charles has a rather sarcastic sense of humor, himself, so I suspect he may laugh, unlike you.

Tiaan M
Tiaan M
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Go troll somewhere else, harpy

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Tiaan M

He said as he trolled!!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Tiaan M

He said as he trolled!!

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

When all else fails, there’s always cheap sarcasm.

Tiaan M
Tiaan M
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Go troll somewhere else, harpy

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

And that would be a bad thing?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
8 months ago

Gosh! I’m glad I don’t live in Canada, I would have been ‘done for’ years ago.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
8 months ago

It’s the inch-to-mile concern. Euthanasia exists informally (through, e.g., DNR notices) anyway, as anyone who has had experience of providing terminal care to relatives knows.
In my recent blog on the new death culture, I concluded that “Never has evil presented with a blander face”: 
https://ayenaw.com/2023/05/09/the-new-death-culture/

Susie Bell
Susie Bell
8 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I went and read your article, really illuminating and full of facts! 13000 Canadians accepted assisted suicide in the first four years of the new law. Goodness knows what the subsequent four years will look like. ‘So the Wuhtan flu didn’t kill the required amount of humans so let’s devise some other ways of reducing the population’ is that the new WEF policy? And your reporting on abortion and infanticide is truly chilling.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

DNR is of course not euthanasia, it isn’t active, it’s simply not prolonging the life of someone who is at that moment actually dying.
However, there are other issues such as with the so-called Liverpool pathway, which on occasions certainly does become euthanasia by another name.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Just read up on the Liverpool pathway and a frightening prospect it seems to be. I’m not certain of the ways that I want to go out of this world but slowly dehydrating due to lack of water isn’t one of them.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Just read up on the Liverpool pathway and a frightening prospect it seems to be. I’m not certain of the ways that I want to go out of this world but slowly dehydrating due to lack of water isn’t one of them.

Susie Bell
Susie Bell
8 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I went and read your article, really illuminating and full of facts! 13000 Canadians accepted assisted suicide in the first four years of the new law. Goodness knows what the subsequent four years will look like. ‘So the Wuhtan flu didn’t kill the required amount of humans so let’s devise some other ways of reducing the population’ is that the new WEF policy? And your reporting on abortion and infanticide is truly chilling.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

DNR is of course not euthanasia, it isn’t active, it’s simply not prolonging the life of someone who is at that moment actually dying.
However, there are other issues such as with the so-called Liverpool pathway, which on occasions certainly does become euthanasia by another name.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
8 months ago

It’s the inch-to-mile concern. Euthanasia exists informally (through, e.g., DNR notices) anyway, as anyone who has had experience of providing terminal care to relatives knows.
In my recent blog on the new death culture, I concluded that “Never has evil presented with a blander face”: 
https://ayenaw.com/2023/05/09/the-new-death-culture/

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
8 months ago

It seems extraordinary that in Trudeau’s performatively ‘caring-sharing-ultra-progressive’ Canada there are instances of people seeking their own death, not because they really want to end it all, but because they’re given inadequate government support to pay for treatment.
More sinister still is a recent advert on Canadian TV, for a big retail chain, extolling not merely the morality but “the beauty” of assisted suicide, as though the policy is virtuous enough to be in line with the “brand values” the company wishes to promote. It’s the stuff of dystopian sci-fi.
All Is Beauty – YouTube
Imagine, say, a John Lewis advertisement that reassured you that they’re on your side, that they understand how difficult the cost of living crisis is for their customers, and that if only Granny would forego her expensive medical care and agree to being pushed off her perch then the rest of the family could get that lovely new sofa in the January sales, not to mention freeing up a house for the kids to sell.
We’re not quite there, yet – but this is where it starts. Normalising assisted suicide is the first step to pressuring people that it’s somehow the responsible choice to take.
Which celebrity would be shameless enough to front such a campaign, I wonder?
Pehaps if Walkers Crisps tire of that gurning Toby-jug of Woke, he might do it. ……
“Dignitas. ….. Because …. why be a burden?”

Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

You may not like it but most people support it

Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
8 months ago
Reply to  Paddy Taylor

You may not like it but most people support it

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
8 months ago

It seems extraordinary that in Trudeau’s performatively ‘caring-sharing-ultra-progressive’ Canada there are instances of people seeking their own death, not because they really want to end it all, but because they’re given inadequate government support to pay for treatment.
More sinister still is a recent advert on Canadian TV, for a big retail chain, extolling not merely the morality but “the beauty” of assisted suicide, as though the policy is virtuous enough to be in line with the “brand values” the company wishes to promote. It’s the stuff of dystopian sci-fi.
All Is Beauty – YouTube
Imagine, say, a John Lewis advertisement that reassured you that they’re on your side, that they understand how difficult the cost of living crisis is for their customers, and that if only Granny would forego her expensive medical care and agree to being pushed off her perch then the rest of the family could get that lovely new sofa in the January sales, not to mention freeing up a house for the kids to sell.
We’re not quite there, yet – but this is where it starts. Normalising assisted suicide is the first step to pressuring people that it’s somehow the responsible choice to take.
Which celebrity would be shameless enough to front such a campaign, I wonder?
Pehaps if Walkers Crisps tire of that gurning Toby-jug of Woke, he might do it. ……
“Dignitas. ….. Because …. why be a burden?”

Andrew R
Andrew R
8 months ago

Let’s hope there aren’t too many bureaucrats and medical practitioners that have a God complex.

Andrew R
Andrew R
8 months ago

Let’s hope there aren’t too many bureaucrats and medical practitioners that have a God complex.

Dark Horse
Dark Horse
8 months ago

The vital word here is voluntary. There should be strong safeguards against any bullying as described in the article.
Canada has simply failed to implement a genuinely voluntary system.
With modern smartphones linked to the Internet it should be really easy for people to film and upload their true feelings at any given moment and if they feel bullied to say so online.
Also secretly recording has become really easy now and should be used more widely when medical professionals or relatives try bullying for ulterior motives.
But the option should be available for those that genuinely want it and the situation in Britain is not acceptable which is why the police never prosecute once they are satisfied the deceased was fully consenting but people are still having to take huge risks just to help a fully consenting loved one to die.

Susan Theobald
Susan Theobald
8 months ago
Reply to  Dark Horse

Whether something is voluntary in this context, is not just about people being overtly bullied. Having worked as a paid carer with the elderly and chronically ill, I can assure you that a person’s understanding of what society believes about them and what help they may or not get, is a real contribution to their sense of self worth and how they perceive any hope for the future. So even a subtle shift in narrative which suggests that sufferers of chronic illness or even the elderly might be less of a burden if they shuffled off this mortal coil, would be have an enormous effect on whether those people ‘volunteer’.

Last edited 8 months ago by Susan Theobald
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Susan Theobald

You make it sound as though all old people are infirm and easily influenced. Some are but they may have always been easily swayed. The rest of us though “vulnerable” are still strong- willed enough not to be manipulated. Quality of life is still the most important thing not just life for life’s sake.

Susan Theobald
Susan Theobald
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Clare, that was not my intention and of course some people are more easily swayed than others. I am merely offering the perspective of people who, in a society where our self worth is often measured by what we feel we are contributing to that society, may be questioning their ‘usefulness’ and may already feel that they are some kind of burden. In my experience as a carer, this was not an uncommon state of mind. The desire of those people to not be a burden, is not necessarily a sign of weakness, they can be very strong-willed people, just not in a happy frame of mind. The issue is not just that they might be influenced against their will to seek death, but that their (in my opinion) erroneous belief that they are a burden will be enhanced, and euthanasia becomes their ‘duty’. There is also a question here about whether we as a society are providing an adequate quality of life for those people, so that they feel like their lives are worth living.

Susan Theobald
Susan Theobald
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Clare, that was not my intention and of course some people are more easily swayed than others. I am merely offering the perspective of people who, in a society where our self worth is often measured by what we feel we are contributing to that society, may be questioning their ‘usefulness’ and may already feel that they are some kind of burden. In my experience as a carer, this was not an uncommon state of mind. The desire of those people to not be a burden, is not necessarily a sign of weakness, they can be very strong-willed people, just not in a happy frame of mind. The issue is not just that they might be influenced against their will to seek death, but that their (in my opinion) erroneous belief that they are a burden will be enhanced, and euthanasia becomes their ‘duty’. There is also a question here about whether we as a society are providing an adequate quality of life for those people, so that they feel like their lives are worth living.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Susan Theobald

You make it sound as though all old people are infirm and easily influenced. Some are but they may have always been easily swayed. The rest of us though “vulnerable” are still strong- willed enough not to be manipulated. Quality of life is still the most important thing not just life for life’s sake.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Dark Horse

No matter how many safeguards have been put in place, wherever this has been brought in, once the slide into killing begins it never stops.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dark Horse

Thank you for that balanced comment, Dark Horse, you’re a breath of fresh air.

Susan Theobald
Susan Theobald
8 months ago
Reply to  Dark Horse

Whether something is voluntary in this context, is not just about people being overtly bullied. Having worked as a paid carer with the elderly and chronically ill, I can assure you that a person’s understanding of what society believes about them and what help they may or not get, is a real contribution to their sense of self worth and how they perceive any hope for the future. So even a subtle shift in narrative which suggests that sufferers of chronic illness or even the elderly might be less of a burden if they shuffled off this mortal coil, would be have an enormous effect on whether those people ‘volunteer’.

Last edited 8 months ago by Susan Theobald
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Dark Horse

No matter how many safeguards have been put in place, wherever this has been brought in, once the slide into killing begins it never stops.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dark Horse

Thank you for that balanced comment, Dark Horse, you’re a breath of fresh air.

Dark Horse
Dark Horse
8 months ago

The vital word here is voluntary. There should be strong safeguards against any bullying as described in the article.
Canada has simply failed to implement a genuinely voluntary system.
With modern smartphones linked to the Internet it should be really easy for people to film and upload their true feelings at any given moment and if they feel bullied to say so online.
Also secretly recording has become really easy now and should be used more widely when medical professionals or relatives try bullying for ulterior motives.
But the option should be available for those that genuinely want it and the situation in Britain is not acceptable which is why the police never prosecute once they are satisfied the deceased was fully consenting but people are still having to take huge risks just to help a fully consenting loved one to die.

Paul T
Paul T
8 months ago

This is horrifying. I notice people are using the phrase “final solution” which I would normally be very strongly against. However here, it seems that this is as horrifying, to me at least, as that other “final solution”. What kind of society treats life’s struggles as an inconvenience to be thrown away? How will such a society even know when it is happy if cannot ever deal with being sad?

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul T

Yes sir. It is horrifying, indeed. Once we throw away life when it becomes inconvenient, or difficult, we show we have forgotten the Creator entirely.

Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul T

Around 60 percent of Canadians using MAiD have terminal cancer. Who should have the right to tell them to keep living with that because they need to be able to deal with being sad?

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul T

Yes sir. It is horrifying, indeed. Once we throw away life when it becomes inconvenient, or difficult, we show we have forgotten the Creator entirely.

Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago
Reply to  Paul T

Around 60 percent of Canadians using MAiD have terminal cancer. Who should have the right to tell them to keep living with that because they need to be able to deal with being sad?

Paul T
Paul T
8 months ago

This is horrifying. I notice people are using the phrase “final solution” which I would normally be very strongly against. However here, it seems that this is as horrifying, to me at least, as that other “final solution”. What kind of society treats life’s struggles as an inconvenience to be thrown away? How will such a society even know when it is happy if cannot ever deal with being sad?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
8 months ago

Another aspect few seem to address is the possibility that, given the dreadful state of medical schools, what with their weird oaths to DEI, and their quota-based acceptance policies, the doctors and nurses being trained are incapable of treating patients. What would be simpler, cheaper, and less trouble than putting the inconvenient down?

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
8 months ago

Another aspect few seem to address is the possibility that, given the dreadful state of medical schools, what with their weird oaths to DEI, and their quota-based acceptance policies, the doctors and nurses being trained are incapable of treating patients. What would be simpler, cheaper, and less trouble than putting the inconvenient down?

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
8 months ago

I wonder what the racial profile is of all these people is. Very few if any appear to be non-white….

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

OMG here we go! I’m going to stop my subscription to Unherd. These comments are so onesided it gets boring.

Tiaan M
Tiaan M
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Byyyyyyye

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Tiaan M

Funny! I knew someone would say that.I set myself up for it.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Tiaan M

Funny! I knew someone would say that.I set myself up for it.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Tiaan M
Tiaan M
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Byyyyyyye

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
8 months ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

The vast majority of people in Canada are white.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

OMG here we go! I’m going to stop my subscription to Unherd. These comments are so onesided it gets boring.

M. Jamieson
M. Jamieson
8 months ago
Reply to  Isabel Ward

The vast majority of people in Canada are white.

Isabel Ward
Isabel Ward
8 months ago

I wonder what the racial profile is of all these people is. Very few if any appear to be non-white….

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago

Such a complex subject, so little time, thanks to LS for trying. Trudeau hopes that enough Anglo voters will top themselves to leave him and his more vital allies in power for ever. By more vital i mean believers in God’s control of destiny – could be ppl of the book – or Hindus/Sikhs, whatever. One thing is for sure its not the natives – senilicide when food and fuel ran out was normal in Yuit history. MAID, like fentanyl and racial hate are just another way lefties try and achieve the aims of their forebears in the 1930s. They will fail for the same reasons IMO – Ultimately there are, on balance, more good people than bad.

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

Sadly too busy doing blackface and dressing as Rajiv Ghandi, trudeau will never look long enough to see that good people outnumber his kind by a significant percentage.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

Rubbish.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

Rubbish.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

Such black versus white thinking.

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

Sadly too busy doing blackface and dressing as Rajiv Ghandi, trudeau will never look long enough to see that good people outnumber his kind by a significant percentage.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  mike otter

Such black versus white thinking.

mike otter
mike otter
8 months ago

Such a complex subject, so little time, thanks to LS for trying. Trudeau hopes that enough Anglo voters will top themselves to leave him and his more vital allies in power for ever. By more vital i mean believers in God’s control of destiny – could be ppl of the book – or Hindus/Sikhs, whatever. One thing is for sure its not the natives – senilicide when food and fuel ran out was normal in Yuit history. MAID, like fentanyl and racial hate are just another way lefties try and achieve the aims of their forebears in the 1930s. They will fail for the same reasons IMO – Ultimately there are, on balance, more good people than bad.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
8 months ago

“…it may be fortunate that glib journalists like me don’t control public policy.”
They do, though.

Last edited 8 months ago by Daniel Lee
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

No they don’t.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

No they don’t.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
8 months ago

“…it may be fortunate that glib journalists like me don’t control public policy.”
They do, though.

Last edited 8 months ago by Daniel Lee
Douglas H
Douglas H
8 months ago

Thanks. Good article. This sums it up: “As for qualifying for euthanasia by dint of mental illness, psychic afflictions are still poorly understood and poorly defined. Because the portion of the population claiming to have mental health problems continues to rise, this is surely the gateway to offering the ultimate cure for human suffering to everybody. ”

Douglas H
Douglas H
8 months ago

Thanks. Good article. This sums it up: “As for qualifying for euthanasia by dint of mental illness, psychic afflictions are still poorly understood and poorly defined. Because the portion of the population claiming to have mental health problems continues to rise, this is surely the gateway to offering the ultimate cure for human suffering to everybody. ”

P Branagan
P Branagan
8 months ago

One of the commentators on this thread worried about the ‘gubmint’ wanting to save money by supporting assisted dying/euthanasia. And this was a bad thing!
As a matter of fact, the ‘gubmints’ don’t have any money of their own – it’s ALL taxpayers money.

Every year the expenditure on health and social care increases as a proportion of ‘gubmint’ expenditure. Before long with current demographic trends this expenditure will increase to 40% of all ‘gubmint’ revenues which will have catastrophic consequences for other ‘gubmint’ services. Each person who requires 24/7 care requires at least 4 productive workers to provide that care (to allow for holidays and sick leave).
With the advances in medical science it will not be too long before we will be able to keep people ‘alive’ almost indefinitely – artificial heart beating alongside kidney machines etc etc. However many of these people will need 24/7 care.

If, because of medical advances, and because every second or every human life is precious (beyond consideration of cost) let’s say 10% of the population requires 24/7 care, then 40% of the productive workforce will be required to provide that care. The taxation required to support that undertaking would be utterly crushing – at which point most sane people would simply opt out.

Sometimes it’s necessary to face the real world rather than the world we’d like to live in. At what point does the entire system collapse under the weight of it’s moral obligations?
Oh, there’s a slippery slope all right – but not the one most UnHerd commenters worry about. It’s the slippery slope that ends in societal collapse under the crushing weight of it’s moral and ethical obligations.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

I’d far rather be in a society that collapses under the weight of caring for one another, than in one that destroys its members because it is utterly obsessed with fiduciary concerns.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

It’s not a matter of either or.

P Branagan
P Branagan
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Perhaps I shouldn’t have mentioned taxation at all.
My argument still stands.
Any society that undertakes to prolong every second of every human life irrespective of the human resources involved is doomed to collapse – period.
It’s utopian and will inevitably lead to a totalitarian hell of ever increasing human suffering.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

It’s not a matter of either or.

P Branagan
P Branagan
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

Perhaps I shouldn’t have mentioned taxation at all.
My argument still stands.
Any society that undertakes to prolong every second of every human life irrespective of the human resources involved is doomed to collapse – period.
It’s utopian and will inevitably lead to a totalitarian hell of ever increasing human suffering.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Thoughtful observation. Thank you.It’s nice to know I’m not alone in my opinion.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

I’d far rather be in a society that collapses under the weight of caring for one another, than in one that destroys its members because it is utterly obsessed with fiduciary concerns.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  P Branagan

Thoughtful observation. Thank you.It’s nice to know I’m not alone in my opinion.

P Branagan
P Branagan
8 months ago

One of the commentators on this thread worried about the ‘gubmint’ wanting to save money by supporting assisted dying/euthanasia. And this was a bad thing!
As a matter of fact, the ‘gubmints’ don’t have any money of their own – it’s ALL taxpayers money.

Every year the expenditure on health and social care increases as a proportion of ‘gubmint’ expenditure. Before long with current demographic trends this expenditure will increase to 40% of all ‘gubmint’ revenues which will have catastrophic consequences for other ‘gubmint’ services. Each person who requires 24/7 care requires at least 4 productive workers to provide that care (to allow for holidays and sick leave).
With the advances in medical science it will not be too long before we will be able to keep people ‘alive’ almost indefinitely – artificial heart beating alongside kidney machines etc etc. However many of these people will need 24/7 care.

If, because of medical advances, and because every second or every human life is precious (beyond consideration of cost) let’s say 10% of the population requires 24/7 care, then 40% of the productive workforce will be required to provide that care. The taxation required to support that undertaking would be utterly crushing – at which point most sane people would simply opt out.

Sometimes it’s necessary to face the real world rather than the world we’d like to live in. At what point does the entire system collapse under the weight of it’s moral obligations?
Oh, there’s a slippery slope all right – but not the one most UnHerd commenters worry about. It’s the slippery slope that ends in societal collapse under the crushing weight of it’s moral and ethical obligations.

harry storm
harry storm
8 months ago

I’m Canadian. I voted Liberal my entire life until the last election in 2021, in part due to the Liberals’ clear support for wokism, but not least because the MAID program is a disgrace. The slippery slope was an obvious danger from the get-go; Canadians tend to sympathize with anyone they perceive to be “suffering.”

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

And why not?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

And why not?

harry storm
harry storm
8 months ago

I’m Canadian. I voted Liberal my entire life until the last election in 2021, in part due to the Liberals’ clear support for wokism, but not least because the MAID program is a disgrace. The slippery slope was an obvious danger from the get-go; Canadians tend to sympathize with anyone they perceive to be “suffering.”

c hutchinson
c hutchinson
8 months ago

Tens of thousands of American’s find a way out of life’s problems annually with fentanyl. It’s relatively inexpensive and readily available. Why bother with another bureaucracy?

c hutchinson
c hutchinson
8 months ago

Tens of thousands of American’s find a way out of life’s problems annually with fentanyl. It’s relatively inexpensive and readily available. Why bother with another bureaucracy?

Michael James
Michael James
8 months ago

There’s no solution to the slippery-slope problem. Once the principle is conceded, assisted suicide will be applied more and more widely, by future generations if not the ruling one. It will come to the UK. The public supports it, and as the struggle to contain future public health spending intensifies, resistance will eventually collapse.

Last edited 8 months ago by Michael James
Michael James
Michael James
8 months ago

There’s no solution to the slippery-slope problem. Once the principle is conceded, assisted suicide will be applied more and more widely, by future generations if not the ruling one. It will come to the UK. The public supports it, and as the struggle to contain future public health spending intensifies, resistance will eventually collapse.

Last edited 8 months ago by Michael James
Alan B
Alan B
8 months ago

What is at issue is the state’s giving permission for suicide. But I cannot imagine why anyone who is committed to ending her own life would require, much less demand, the state’s permission! After all, the state would not seek permission to kill you!!

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Alan B

This is indeed an oddity. Why someone who says that they want to kill themselves when life is difficult in some manner or another then waits to do it until the moment when they can no longer do it, and therefore needs someone else to do it to them, is a puzzling matter.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

“When someone wants to kill themselves when life is “difficult” is such a heartless comment. Apparently you haven’t suffered enough, or your suffering left you with no compassion or empathy for others who are suffering. Either way it’s sad that you aren’t able to feel another’s pain.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Gilmour Campbell
Gilmour Campbell
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Did you actually read what was posted?

Gilmour Campbell
Gilmour Campbell
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Did you actually read what was posted?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

“When someone wants to kill themselves when life is “difficult” is such a heartless comment. Apparently you haven’t suffered enough, or your suffering left you with no compassion or empathy for others who are suffering. Either way it’s sad that you aren’t able to feel another’s pain.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago
Reply to  Alan B

This is indeed an oddity. Why someone who says that they want to kill themselves when life is difficult in some manner or another then waits to do it until the moment when they can no longer do it, and therefore needs someone else to do it to them, is a puzzling matter.

Alan B
Alan B
8 months ago

What is at issue is the state’s giving permission for suicide. But I cannot imagine why anyone who is committed to ending her own life would require, much less demand, the state’s permission! After all, the state would not seek permission to kill you!!

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
8 months ago

You don’t need to be a world class dystopian Sci fi writer to come up with some unpleasant scenarios that could flow from this. I am sure a few people have left grandma with a MAID brochure so they can get their hands on her house a little sooner. I mean-
come on – all she does is watch TV all day. Israeli philosopher Yuval Harari seems to be working on plans for all those ‘useless people’ AI will create. Have to admit that it seems odd to have have an Israeli use that word – “useless” – in that context. But I guess that’s just 20th century thinking. And after all he is a philosopher – not a historian. Maybe he should talk to his grandparents before finishing his planning.

Last edited 8 months ago by Peter Johnson
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

It’s not just old people who suffer.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

It’s not just old people who suffer.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
8 months ago

You don’t need to be a world class dystopian Sci fi writer to come up with some unpleasant scenarios that could flow from this. I am sure a few people have left grandma with a MAID brochure so they can get their hands on her house a little sooner. I mean-
come on – all she does is watch TV all day. Israeli philosopher Yuval Harari seems to be working on plans for all those ‘useless people’ AI will create. Have to admit that it seems odd to have have an Israeli use that word – “useless” – in that context. But I guess that’s just 20th century thinking. And after all he is a philosopher – not a historian. Maybe he should talk to his grandparents before finishing his planning.

Last edited 8 months ago by Peter Johnson
CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
8 months ago

Yes but I think MAIDs panders to the cheapening of the human experience. Our greatest condolence in life has rested on the fact that suffering is part of our shared experience. To accept a certain amount (always with caveats to protect those in extreme pain obviously) strengthens our acceptance of the shared, somewhat necessary, experience and has done since time immemorial.
It seems that through such ‘progressive’ policies as MAIDS that if we aren’t ‘happy’ and totally fulfilled we have failed. Leading to loss of confidence in our right to live and perhaps never experience depths and comforts not imagined by our younger unafflicted selves.
But mainly I object, as LS does, because it is not in our gift to offer, legally and state sanctioned, to take lives of others. as the slope downwards is so slippery. More honour and comfort to the ill and old is needed no more or less.

Last edited 8 months ago by CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
8 months ago

Yes but I think MAIDs panders to the cheapening of the human experience. Our greatest condolence in life has rested on the fact that suffering is part of our shared experience. To accept a certain amount (always with caveats to protect those in extreme pain obviously) strengthens our acceptance of the shared, somewhat necessary, experience and has done since time immemorial.
It seems that through such ‘progressive’ policies as MAIDS that if we aren’t ‘happy’ and totally fulfilled we have failed. Leading to loss of confidence in our right to live and perhaps never experience depths and comforts not imagined by our younger unafflicted selves.
But mainly I object, as LS does, because it is not in our gift to offer, legally and state sanctioned, to take lives of others. as the slope downwards is so slippery. More honour and comfort to the ill and old is needed no more or less.

Last edited 8 months ago by CF Hankinson
Madison Bagley
Madison Bagley
8 months ago

What’s next in Canada Soylent Green with those using MAID?

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Madison Bagley

It’ll be either that or bugs.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago
Reply to  Madison Bagley

It’ll be either that or bugs.

Madison Bagley
Madison Bagley
8 months ago

What’s next in Canada Soylent Green with those using MAID?

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago

The Liberals want to spend money to buy votes. Despondent people dont vote and they take up too much money.
You dont need to look any further.
(embarrassingly, documents were leaked which showed how much the Liberals expected to save)
And of course, its healthcare, everything is healthcare now because its free.
Its just a part of woke until youre broke, then find “further savings” to keep the party going.
Government shouldn’t be in the business of ending peoples lives. I mean, they cant even figure out how to provide a service at a reasonable price…

Last edited 8 months ago by Bret Larson
Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

It wasn’t the Liberal government of Canada that willingly introduced MAiD into the law Canada. It was the courts that held that its absence was an infringement of the suffering plaintiffs’ constitutional rights. The government was given time to introduce the law, but had no choice.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
7 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

You don’t think the courts do the politicians bidding?
Its a running joke that things that are unconstitutional in Alberta become constitutional in Ottawa.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
7 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Roman

You don’t think the courts do the politicians bidding?
Its a running joke that things that are unconstitutional in Alberta become constitutional in Ottawa.

Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago
Reply to  Bret Larson

It wasn’t the Liberal government of Canada that willingly introduced MAiD into the law Canada. It was the courts that held that its absence was an infringement of the suffering plaintiffs’ constitutional rights. The government was given time to introduce the law, but had no choice.

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago

The Liberals want to spend money to buy votes. Despondent people dont vote and they take up too much money.
You dont need to look any further.
(embarrassingly, documents were leaked which showed how much the Liberals expected to save)
And of course, its healthcare, everything is healthcare now because its free.
Its just a part of woke until youre broke, then find “further savings” to keep the party going.
Government shouldn’t be in the business of ending peoples lives. I mean, they cant even figure out how to provide a service at a reasonable price…

Last edited 8 months ago by Bret Larson
Betsy Arehart
Betsy Arehart
8 months ago

“I’d draw the line, and I’d hold the line.” Ah, that’s the rub. Optional now, compulsory later.

Betsy Arehart
Betsy Arehart
8 months ago

“I’d draw the line, and I’d hold the line.” Ah, that’s the rub. Optional now, compulsory later.

Dick Illyes
Dick Illyes
8 months ago

It is time to take the profit out of addictive drugs. Users become pushers to help pay for their habits, and the Cartels are making huge amounts of money and taking over countries.
Let addicts go to any physician and get a prescription for their drug(s). The drugs cost very little to manufacture and the low cost would allow addicts to stop stealing and dealing, and defund the cartels.
This would also put them into contact with health care professionals who could help them if they decided to get clean.
Until we defund the cartels nothing will change.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dick Illyes

Patients in the US can’t even get pain medication for pain, amymore. The people who abused opioids have ruined it for the rest of us. The DEA has put the fear of god into health care providers by having a knee jerk response to addiction. Now there is no relief for legitimate pain sufferers, so there will be more suicides, and botched suicides.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dick Illyes

Patients in the US can’t even get pain medication for pain, amymore. The people who abused opioids have ruined it for the rest of us. The DEA has put the fear of god into health care providers by having a knee jerk response to addiction. Now there is no relief for legitimate pain sufferers, so there will be more suicides, and botched suicides.

Dick Illyes
Dick Illyes
8 months ago

It is time to take the profit out of addictive drugs. Users become pushers to help pay for their habits, and the Cartels are making huge amounts of money and taking over countries.
Let addicts go to any physician and get a prescription for their drug(s). The drugs cost very little to manufacture and the low cost would allow addicts to stop stealing and dealing, and defund the cartels.
This would also put them into contact with health care professionals who could help them if they decided to get clean.
Until we defund the cartels nothing will change.

Torbjörn Andersen
Torbjörn Andersen
8 months ago

Hopefully this demonic virus will never spread to the civilized world. That would be the day I deliver in my license as MD

Torbjörn Andersen
Torbjörn Andersen
8 months ago

Hopefully this demonic virus will never spread to the civilized world. That would be the day I deliver in my license as MD

AC Harper
AC Harper
8 months ago

 It’s the Left that traditionally prides itself on concern for the “vulnerable”…

But the Left typically outsources its concern to bureaucrats – however the nature of a bureaucracy is to tidy up messy life and fit it into approved boxes.
The article is a criticism of encouraging the slippery slope for bureaucratic reasons but shouldn’t be a justification for removing all access to assisted suicide. That would be tidying up messy lives into a different set of boxes.

AC Harper
AC Harper
8 months ago

 It’s the Left that traditionally prides itself on concern for the “vulnerable”…

But the Left typically outsources its concern to bureaucrats – however the nature of a bureaucracy is to tidy up messy life and fit it into approved boxes.
The article is a criticism of encouraging the slippery slope for bureaucratic reasons but shouldn’t be a justification for removing all access to assisted suicide. That would be tidying up messy lives into a different set of boxes.

Richard Simpson
Richard Simpson
8 months ago

It’s the decision of the individual physicians concerned in discussions with their patient and family. There were approximately 31k MAID attributed deaths in Canada from 2016-2021. In the US just in 2021 there were approximately 21k handgun related suicides. Need I say more about gathering up our calls for pots and kettles.

Richard Simpson
Richard Simpson
8 months ago

It’s the decision of the individual physicians concerned in discussions with their patient and family. There were approximately 31k MAID attributed deaths in Canada from 2016-2021. In the US just in 2021 there were approximately 21k handgun related suicides. Need I say more about gathering up our calls for pots and kettles.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
8 months ago

“...it may be fortunate that glib journalists like me don’t control public policy.”
That may be the understatement of the century.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
8 months ago

“...it may be fortunate that glib journalists like me don’t control public policy.”
That may be the understatement of the century.

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
8 months ago

“Yet it takes one look at Lisa Pauli’s picture to conclude that she doesn’t need a lethal injection. She needs a sandwich.” Glib. Were it that simple!

Danielle Treille
Danielle Treille
8 months ago

“Yet it takes one look at Lisa Pauli’s picture to conclude that she doesn’t need a lethal injection. She needs a sandwich.” Glib. Were it that simple!

Ed Newman
Ed Newman
8 months ago

I began writing about assisted suicide back in the early 90s in which i did a five part series for a seniors publication. The fifth article was about the pros and cons of assisted suicide. I presented 4 primary arguments for, and 7 against. The biggest objection to assisted suicide, according to a Hemlock Society member whom I inerviewed, was the “Slippery Slope” argument. History has since born that out in Oregon and Canada. In both cases, the original legislation approving it only served to be a beachhead.
I think what going on here in Canada is pretty scary. Thank you for this informative article. There is a lot of money behind this movement (promoting assisted suicde.) People need to be aware of what is going on.

Ed Newman
Ed Newman
8 months ago

I began writing about assisted suicide back in the early 90s in which i did a five part series for a seniors publication. The fifth article was about the pros and cons of assisted suicide. I presented 4 primary arguments for, and 7 against. The biggest objection to assisted suicide, according to a Hemlock Society member whom I inerviewed, was the “Slippery Slope” argument. History has since born that out in Oregon and Canada. In both cases, the original legislation approving it only served to be a beachhead.
I think what going on here in Canada is pretty scary. Thank you for this informative article. There is a lot of money behind this movement (promoting assisted suicde.) People need to be aware of what is going on.

Benjamin Greco
Benjamin Greco
7 months ago

The fatal flaw of Libertarianism is that in a world where people are free to choose, they often make bad choices. If society doesn’t have the stomach to live with the bad choices people make and doesn’t want to spend the money to help people who make bad choices then it shouldn’t surprise anyone that governments will find it easier to, Scrooge like, reduce the surplus population. Turns out Libertarianism can be an expensive proposition with more people needing drug treatment, mental health services and medical services. Libertarianism and compassion will often conflict.
What amazes me is that we always think a social policy should be perfect right out of the gate. Call out a few anecdotal examples of the policy going wrong and declare the policy a failure. Should the terminally ill suffer because lonely anorexics also want to end their lives. We can’t work out the kinks in policy because we can’t debate and compromise. I used to blame the Right for this but today it’s the Left’s fault. Shriver is correct, the Canadian policy is going too far and needs to be adjusted.
Canada may eventually get it right, but it will take time. Another problem today is a lack of patience.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
8 months ago

Australia doesn’t do provinces. Victoria and its ilk are states.

Last edited 8 months ago by Dumetrius
Mustard Clementine
Mustard Clementine
8 months ago

I think the real problem is not that MAID exists as an option, but that people here in Canada often do not have any better options available to them. The scandal is our lack of adequate services otherwise – not the availability of this particular service.
I agree with quite a lot in this article, but I think that is one key point where I diverge. I feel it is better to err on the side of providing more people with an option to humanely end their own suffering, rather than not giving them that option (and leaving them to their own devices, which may be far less humane). My way of preventing people from taking that option who really shouldn’t would be to fight to ensure that they get adequate care and support. I would not fight to make sure they don’t have the option to die when there is no option for them to have those things.
I think another reason I fall on this side, and also against the idea that only physical pain should qualify one for euthanasia, is that I have a parent with dementia that came on quite early and is progressing quite rapidly. I know if that ever happens to me that I absolutely want the option not to have to live that way. My parent is otherwise physically fine, but they are gone in all but body. If that is my fate I want the option to simply be gone and I think a lot of people would.
I also suspect that some of the oddities in our law have been influenced by that scenario – it’s hard to allow people that option in the case of dementia without catching other brain disorders in the net. But having seen it up close I would very much rather give people that option than take it away over what remain quite outlier cases of tragic use, than restrict and force more people to suffer a tragic life they don’t want.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

Thank you yet again, Mustard Clementine, for a sensitive and thoughtful comment. I have a friend who has some form of cognitive decline – one has to keep repeating things because she doesn’t remember what one has said, so although she is blissfully happy it gets a bit tedious for the rest of us. She is the happiest she has ever been at the age of ninety. She has no physical ailments, has a supportive extended family, and says she wants to live forever. I, on the other hand have a brain that is still quick as a whip at 82, but have crippling arthritis and no extended family. I feel very anxious about my future in the US because there is no pain medication available anymore. The situation is dire.
My mother was also alone, in Australia, and had many health issues including an amputation.The family was spread out all over the country. At 85 she decided she had had enough and was going to check out from life. Her plan was to stop all medications and take sleeping pills with alcohol. The one problem was she didn’t have any sleeping pills, but I did, the exact kind that she needed because she had read up on it. I Fedexd them to her (I’m in another country).A friend was with her and says my mother quietly fell into a deep sleep and died. Isn’t that the way we would all like to go?

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Susan Theobald
Susan Theobald
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I am sorry that you are living with such pain and I can understand why you feel so passionately about this, but may the answer to the situations you have outlined also be a higher level of care (formal and informal), better social networks and access to the correct medications/therapies we need, when we need them. I am in the UK, but our NHS is stretched to breaking point. If euthanasia is to be legalised then I think we need to make a more concerted effort to ensure that people are cared for properly first.

Susan Theobald
Susan Theobald
7 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

I am sorry that you are living with such pain and I can understand why you feel so passionately about this, but may the answer to the situations you have outlined also be a higher level of care (formal and informal), better social networks and access to the correct medications/therapies we need, when we need them. I am in the UK, but our NHS is stretched to breaking point. If euthanasia is to be legalised then I think we need to make a more concerted effort to ensure that people are cared for properly first.

Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago

Exactly. Thank you.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

Thank you yet again, Mustard Clementine, for a sensitive and thoughtful comment. I have a friend who has some form of cognitive decline – one has to keep repeating things because she doesn’t remember what one has said, so although she is blissfully happy it gets a bit tedious for the rest of us. She is the happiest she has ever been at the age of ninety. She has no physical ailments, has a supportive extended family, and says she wants to live forever. I, on the other hand have a brain that is still quick as a whip at 82, but have crippling arthritis and no extended family. I feel very anxious about my future in the US because there is no pain medication available anymore. The situation is dire.
My mother was also alone, in Australia, and had many health issues including an amputation.The family was spread out all over the country. At 85 she decided she had had enough and was going to check out from life. Her plan was to stop all medications and take sleeping pills with alcohol. The one problem was she didn’t have any sleeping pills, but I did, the exact kind that she needed because she had read up on it. I Fedexd them to her (I’m in another country).A friend was with her and says my mother quietly fell into a deep sleep and died. Isn’t that the way we would all like to go?

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago

Exactly. Thank you.

Mustard Clementine
Mustard Clementine
8 months ago

I think the real problem is not that MAID exists as an option, but that people here in Canada often do not have any better options available to them. The scandal is our lack of adequate services otherwise – not the availability of this particular service.
I agree with quite a lot in this article, but I think that is one key point where I diverge. I feel it is better to err on the side of providing more people with an option to humanely end their own suffering, rather than not giving them that option (and leaving them to their own devices, which may be far less humane). My way of preventing people from taking that option who really shouldn’t would be to fight to ensure that they get adequate care and support. I would not fight to make sure they don’t have the option to die when there is no option for them to have those things.
I think another reason I fall on this side, and also against the idea that only physical pain should qualify one for euthanasia, is that I have a parent with dementia that came on quite early and is progressing quite rapidly. I know if that ever happens to me that I absolutely want the option not to have to live that way. My parent is otherwise physically fine, but they are gone in all but body. If that is my fate I want the option to simply be gone and I think a lot of people would.
I also suspect that some of the oddities in our law have been influenced by that scenario – it’s hard to allow people that option in the case of dementia without catching other brain disorders in the net. But having seen it up close I would very much rather give people that option than take it away over what remain quite outlier cases of tragic use, than restrict and force more people to suffer a tragic life they don’t want.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
8 months ago

Canadians are weird.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

No weirder than anyone else.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Samuel Ross

No weirder than anyone else.

Samuel Ross
Samuel Ross
8 months ago

Canadians are weird.

0 0
0 0
8 months ago

Very interesting article. But please Unherd, employ a sub-editor who knows the difference between reign and rein. Instead of “a tight regulatory reign” please correct to ‘a tight regulatory rein’.

Amol Kaikini
Amol Kaikini
8 months ago

Very unnerving. Reminded me of the movie Brazil from the eighties.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

“A member of my own family met his end this way, via morphine given specifically to ensure he would feel no pain.” This happened to me as well, in Switzerland, and when doctors came, again and again they asked for the signature on a letter saying that no life saving measures were wanted in case of need of intensive care. They seemed to be interested in nothing more, for legal reasons, I was told. We had a signature saying that all care was wanted. In the end the doctor refused to take measures when breathing stopped: There is no right for specific medical treatment, and the internal guidelines of the hospital said that with the chronic conditions of this patient no measures were to be taken. It was horror. We didn’t feel safe.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 month ago

I’m a nurse who works in palliative care and have cared for hundreds, possibly thousands of terminally ill patients. I’ve never witnessed anyone dying in agonising pain. The vast majority have peaceful deaths and we work hard to ensure this.
There are always exceptions of course, and suffering is not just restricted to physical pain. But I think legalising assisted death would harm far greater numbers than it would help.

El Uro
El Uro
1 month ago

I wouldn’t melodramatically portray this programme as some wicked Final Solution for castoffs and criminals, but there’s more than a hint here of the brutal social utilitarianism that horrified Captain Kirk in more than one episode of Star Trek.
Don’t deceive yourself or us. This is the Final Solution and Canada is not halfway to a fascist state, Canada is already there.
PS. Right now The Times published 2 articles about 31 years old woman who decided to end her life through assisted suicide. The vast majority of readers approve of her decision and are proud of her. So Britain will soon catch up with Canada. In addition, there is a problem with pension funds, which were so profitable before

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
8 months ago

The inverse of lockdown culture is the given of mass pregnancy termination but they operate with the logics of the same epoch.
This is the absolute devaluation of life in different shades. Abortion is part of the euthanasia complex that drives this innovative Canadian state policy.
The lab flu/lockdown/vaxx syndrome is then the handing-over of democratic power to entities that favour a new generation of biopolitical management of populations.

Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden
8 months ago

The inverse of lockdown culture is the given of mass pregnancy termination but they operate with the logics of the same epoch.
This is the absolute devaluation of life in different shades. Abortion is part of the euthanasia complex that drives this innovative Canadian state policy.
The lab flu/lockdown/vaxx syndrome is then the handing-over of democratic power to entities that favour a new generation of biopolitical management of populations.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
8 months ago

‘Given the stories in the press, that anxiety may be warranted.’ That’s the real problem, right there. Press stories are provided by people with an axe to grind, handled by journalists with no medical qualifications, experience or expertise, and constructed to sell copy. They are evidence of nothing except ‘don’t believe what you read in the newspapers’.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
8 months ago

‘Given the stories in the press, that anxiety may be warranted.’ That’s the real problem, right there. Press stories are provided by people with an axe to grind, handled by journalists with no medical qualifications, experience or expertise, and constructed to sell copy. They are evidence of nothing except ‘don’t believe what you read in the newspapers’.

Marie-Louise Papworth
Marie-Louise Papworth
8 months ago

Why is it that Unherd does not publish balancing articles on this subject? Canada is one country with a strong democratic system in place. They take their decisions – it is manipulative to read across from Canada to denigrate other countries where they have had assisted dying laws in place for many years or to claim that “because of Canada we who’ll not consider something for the UK” . We should evaluate the pros and cons for our own countries and systems and take the decision accordingly. Not blindly read across from others.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
8 months ago

Indeed. It seems to me there’s no argument that can counter allowing those with chronic, incurable and unbearable pain to have the option of being assisted to end their suffering. There are some conditions that simply can’t be alleviated. Shriver’s description of her own temporary inability to function as a human being is very apt: if that became unremittable, only someone with a basic lack of humanity could demand they be made to continue being tortured.

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Hard cases make bad laws.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Josie Bowen

Says they who haven’t experienced acute chronic pain.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Josie Bowen

Says they who haven’t experienced acute chronic pain.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Exactly.

Josie Bowen
Josie Bowen
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Hard cases make bad laws.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Steve Murray

Exactly.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

Because governments and they advocates of such changes do either ‘blindly read across from others’ (note proposed changes to cannabis legislation), or decide that we should ‘lead the way’ which others will then follow (net zero madness).

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago

Canada’s democracy is currently being undermined by the Federal government in Ottawa. The MAID program is a good example. Healthcare is constitutionally a provincial responsibility. But if you dont do what the feds want, they dont give you any money.
Its taxation without representation, and I mean that in a few different ways.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago

A strong democratic system doesn’t censor people for expressing their beliefs.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
8 months ago

Indeed. It seems to me there’s no argument that can counter allowing those with chronic, incurable and unbearable pain to have the option of being assisted to end their suffering. There are some conditions that simply can’t be alleviated. Shriver’s description of her own temporary inability to function as a human being is very apt: if that became unremittable, only someone with a basic lack of humanity could demand they be made to continue being tortured.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

Because governments and they advocates of such changes do either ‘blindly read across from others’ (note proposed changes to cannabis legislation), or decide that we should ‘lead the way’ which others will then follow (net zero madness).

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago

Canada’s democracy is currently being undermined by the Federal government in Ottawa. The MAID program is a good example. Healthcare is constitutionally a provincial responsibility. But if you dont do what the feds want, they dont give you any money.
Its taxation without representation, and I mean that in a few different ways.

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago

A strong democratic system doesn’t censor people for expressing their beliefs.

Marie-Louise Papworth
Marie-Louise Papworth
8 months ago

Why is it that Unherd does not publish balancing articles on this subject? Canada is one country with a strong democratic system in place. They take their decisions – it is manipulative to read across from Canada to denigrate other countries where they have had assisted dying laws in place for many years or to claim that “because of Canada we who’ll not consider something for the UK” . We should evaluate the pros and cons for our own countries and systems and take the decision accordingly. Not blindly read across from others.

Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago

LOL. The Trudeau liberals are left wing? Hahahaha. Only because the centre has moved so far to the right. Seriously, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time.

As far as Euthanasia goes, it’s up to the person to decide and am glad that it’s finally legal to do so. My body, my choice. Mental Health is one area that does need serious oversight for obvious reasons.

Last edited 8 months ago by Christopher Darlington
harry storm
harry storm
8 months ago

The centre has moved to the left in Canada, which is why liberals like myself can no longer support the Liberal party. The idea that the centre has moved rightward is absurd. Total nonsense.

Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

I don’t mean indentity woke nonsense left. I mean Labour left. Trudeau legislated striking workers back to work. Sounds really left wing to me lol. The entire world has shifted to the right. That’s why union membership is at its lowest. That’s why the rich have all the money and the poor have nothing. But sure, we’ve all shifted left. Lmao.

Last edited 8 months ago by Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago
Reply to  harry storm

I don’t mean indentity woke nonsense left. I mean Labour left. Trudeau legislated striking workers back to work. Sounds really left wing to me lol. The entire world has shifted to the right. That’s why union membership is at its lowest. That’s why the rich have all the money and the poor have nothing. But sure, we’ve all shifted left. Lmao.

Last edited 8 months ago by Christopher Darlington
Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

But it isn’t. Euthanasia isn’t ‘my body my choice’ (even if you believe that – which doesn’t go for abortion fans, who don’t allow the unborn child to have that choice). Euthanasia is ‘someone else must kill me.’

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

What a load of twaddle.It’s not a child it’s a fetus that you can’t see with the naked eye. Life begins at birth.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Phil Mac
Phil Mac
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Seriously? 10 minutes before travelling through the pelvis the child isn’t alive?

Phil Mac
Phil Mac
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Seriously? 10 minutes before travelling through the pelvis the child isn’t alive?

Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

That’s completely fine. Whether by my hand or someone else’s it’s my choice.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

What a load of twaddle.It’s not a child it’s a fetus that you can’t see with the naked eye. Life begins at birth.

Last edited 8 months ago by Clare Knight
Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic S

That’s completely fine. Whether by my hand or someone else’s it’s my choice.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

Exactly. My body my choice.

Phil Mac
Phil Mac
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

By all means kill your self, the subject under discussion is whether other people should be going around touting their services to do it to you.

Phil Mac
Phil Mac
8 months ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

By all means kill your self, the subject under discussion is whether other people should be going around touting their services to do it to you.

Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago

Trudeau was forced to amend the Criminal Code to permit MAiD by the courts in several judicial decisions. Although his government is fairly leftist this was not his initiative. But the protection of individual autonomy and constitutional rights is neither left wing nor right wing, it cuts across these distinctions.

harry storm
harry storm
8 months ago

The centre has moved to the left in Canada, which is why liberals like myself can no longer support the Liberal party. The idea that the centre has moved rightward is absurd. Total nonsense.

Dominic S
Dominic S
8 months ago

But it isn’t. Euthanasia isn’t ‘my body my choice’ (even if you believe that – which doesn’t go for abortion fans, who don’t allow the unborn child to have that choice). Euthanasia is ‘someone else must kill me.’

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago

Exactly. My body my choice.

Andrew Roman
Andrew Roman
8 months ago

Trudeau was forced to amend the Criminal Code to permit MAiD by the courts in several judicial decisions. Although his government is fairly leftist this was not his initiative. But the protection of individual autonomy and constitutional rights is neither left wing nor right wing, it cuts across these distinctions.

Christopher Darlington
Christopher Darlington
8 months ago

LOL. The Trudeau liberals are left wing? Hahahaha. Only because the centre has moved so far to the right. Seriously, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time.

As far as Euthanasia goes, it’s up to the person to decide and am glad that it’s finally legal to do so. My body, my choice. Mental Health is one area that does need serious oversight for obvious reasons.

Last edited 8 months ago by Christopher Darlington
Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
8 months ago

There should be some controls on assisted dying to ensure that nobody has been coerced but at the end of the day it is the patients choice even if the have untreatable depression, melancholy are are fed up with their exit. Given the ageing population it would also reduce future pension liabilities and if it was available to those in prisons then the costs of criminal justice might be reduced

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago

I think you had support until the last sentence

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago

And given the fact that more people are living longer and using up more of our limited resources, we’ll need to eliminate a sizable chunk of Earth’s human population. Any volunteers?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Yes, me, depending on how you plan to eliminate us. Sliding into a peaceful sleep never to wake up? Sounds good to me.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Studio Largo

Yes, me, depending on how you plan to eliminate us. Sliding into a peaceful sleep never to wake up? Sounds good to me.

mattyslinger
mattyslinger
8 months ago

I think you had support until the last sentence

Studio Largo
Studio Largo
8 months ago

And given the fact that more people are living longer and using up more of our limited resources, we’ll need to eliminate a sizable chunk of Earth’s human population. Any volunteers?

Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
8 months ago

There should be some controls on assisted dying to ensure that nobody has been coerced but at the end of the day it is the patients choice even if the have untreatable depression, melancholy are are fed up with their exit. Given the ageing population it would also reduce future pension liabilities and if it was available to those in prisons then the costs of criminal justice might be reduced

Yan Chernyak
Yan Chernyak
8 months ago

Sadly, couldn’t continue to read after the very first paragraph: if the author seriously thinks that it’s the legalisation of recreational pharmaceuticals we need to blame for tent cities, then her further analysis is of no interest, sorry.

Last edited 8 months ago by yan
harry storm
harry storm
8 months ago
Reply to  Yan Chernyak

Perhaps you should continue to read. It was a fine article.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Yan Chernyak

That’s not what she was saying.

harry storm
harry storm
8 months ago
Reply to  Yan Chernyak

Perhaps you should continue to read. It was a fine article.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Yan Chernyak

That’s not what she was saying.

Yan Chernyak
Yan Chernyak
8 months ago

Sadly, couldn’t continue to read after the very first paragraph: if the author seriously thinks that it’s the legalisation of recreational pharmaceuticals we need to blame for tent cities, then her further analysis is of no interest, sorry.

Last edited 8 months ago by yan
Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
8 months ago

Since when do you care about the poor and homeless Shriver? You are after all a Tory support. Assisted dying is a choice and none of your business

Last edited 8 months ago by Douglas Redmayne
Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
8 months ago

You appear to be lost – hey, it happens, the internet is a big place.
The site you want is here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/commentisfree
You can ad-hom to your heart’s content.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Funny!

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Chris Bradshaw

Funny!

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
8 months ago

let get this right: caring about them equals to kill them.
lefties and the doublespeak, never gets old

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

Its not lefties, fascists’ of all sorts will get you to believe gruel is a steak

Bret Larson
Bret Larson
8 months ago
Reply to  Gorka Sillero

Its not lefties, fascists’ of all sorts will get you to believe gruel is a steak

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
8 months ago

This is not a political party issue but a ‘life’ issue. As we are witnessing today, many causes that started off as ‘individual choices’ are becoming ‘rights’ that require big government agencies to uphold. Rights are not the same as freedoms.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Well said.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
8 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Well said.

Chris Bradshaw
Chris Bradshaw
8 months ago

You appear to be lost – hey, it happens, the internet is a big place.
The site you want is here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/commentisfree
You can ad-hom to your heart’s content.

Gorka Sillero
Gorka Sillero
8 months ago

let get this right: caring about them equals to kill them.
lefties and the doublespeak, never gets old

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
8 months ago

This is not a political party issue but a ‘life’ issue. As we are witnessing today, many causes that started off as ‘individual choices’ are becoming ‘rights’ that require big government agencies to uphold. Rights are not the same as freedoms.

Douglas Redmayne
Douglas Redmayne
8 months ago

Since when do you care about the poor and homeless Shriver? You are after all a Tory support. Assisted dying is a choice and none of your business

Last edited 8 months ago by Douglas Redmayne