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A heatwave isn’t the end of the world Reducing emissions will hurt the poor

No need to panic. Credit: Philippe Lopez/AFP/Getty

No need to panic. Credit: Philippe Lopez/AFP/Getty


July 18, 2023   6 mins

As I write this, in my favourite local café in Rome, the temperature outside is close to 40°C. So yes, it’s hot. Yet, thanks to a relatively old invention — air conditioning — I’m able to work in comfort. The 10-minute bike ride back home will be tougher than usual, but it won’t kill me. Like most people here, I consider these temperatures to be a nuisance — but that’s about it.

According to the news, however, I should be terribly concerned — terrified, in fact. Everyone’s running headline stories about the “extreme”, “record-breaking” and “deadly” hot weather sweeping across Asia, the US and, most notably, Europe. Here, the heatwave was unofficially named Cerberus, the multi-headed dog that guards the gates of Hades, before being replaced by Charon, the man who ferries the dead there. Rome is being called the “infernal city”. To be honest, I can think of several much more hellish places around the world at the moment — cities plagued by poverty, terrorism and war. And yet we are told that the current heat waves are a taste of the “hell” that awaits us as a result of climate change.

Such sensationalism is revealing of the climate hysteria that has gripped the West — and the way in which it is seriously hindering our ability to devise rational solutions. Many seem convinced that if we don’t drastically reduce CO2 emissions (or eliminate them altogether) by our unmoveable deadline of 2030, climate change will extinguish humanity, if not all life on Earth. We’re told this is because “the science tells us”. This is bonkers.

Yes, climate change and global warming are real — and yes, they are largely a result of human activity — but the planet is not about to be “uninhabitable”. The science is, in fact, much more nuanced: according to the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), it is far from clear whether the world is actually experiencing more drought, flooding or hurricanes, nor the extent to which any changes are influenced by human behaviour.

Scientists aren’t even sure what the impact on agriculture will be: one 2011 study done for the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization predicts that by mid-century climate change might reduce global crop output by less than 1% of today’s output. As the UN climate panel put it: “For most economic sectors, the impact of climate change will be small relative to the impacts of other drivers [such as] changes in population, age, income, technology, relative prices, lifestyle, regulation, governance, and many other aspects of socioeconomic development.”

While the overall impact of climate change on humanity will be negative, nowhere does the science tell us that life on Earth will perish if we don’t go Net Zero by 2030. These deadlines are conjured by politicians, not scientists. As a result, the apocalyptic narrative currently dominating the climate debate is completely unfounded — and unethical. In The Rhetoric of Reaction, Albert Hirschman warned about the “futility thesis” — how people will reject preventive action due to a fatalistic belief that it is simply too late to make a difference. Today, this phenomenon can be seen in the thousands of young Westerners who are suffering from “climate anxiety” and choosing not to have children. According to the UN’s latest Human Development Report, the world is more pessimistic than at any point between now and before the First World War — even though in almost every measurable way, life on Earth is better than ever.

Not only is this rhetoric of impending doom hindering the possibility of fixing the problem, it is also engendering all manner of authoritarian fantasies. It has become an article of faith that the best response is to drastically cut back CO2 emissions — and that this should be done whatever the cost. For if the world is about to end, anything is justified. The increasingly violent forms of “eco-activism” are also part of this trend. Fear, depression, desperation and authoritarianism are mutually reinforcing.

Yet any realistic climate policy will take decades to pay off; even if we significantly reduce our emissions in the following years, the total amount of carbon dioxide in the air will still increase, though at a slightly diminished rate. This is especially true for Western countries, which will account for a smaller and smaller share of global emissions in the coming years and decades. Even if rich countries completely curtail all emissions (an impossible scenario), the temperature increase, after 80 years, will only be 0.4°C smaller than it would have been otherwise, according to estimates by Bjorn Lomborg based on a model used by the UN’s panel of climate scientists. So even if Western countries were able to meet their unrealistic climate objectives, we will continue to experience the negative consequences of climate change — floods, storms and heat waves — for a very long time.

This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do anything to try to stop temperatures from rising above a certain limit. But if our aim is to actually save lives — and surely we have a greater moral obligation to those who are alive today than to future generations — then our priority should be adaptation: that is, measures that will help people cope with the effects of climate change, and which would save lives here and now.

Adaptation has already greatly reduced climate-related deaths, even in the face of rising temperatures: it’s why deaths from storm surges have been declining even as sea levels have risen; and why the most likely future scenario is that fewer people will die from climate-related flooding — just as heat-related deaths have been declining in certain countries. Adaptation is also why deaths and devastation due to wildfires have dropped dramatically; and why, overall, climate-related fatalities have declined by about 96% over the past century, despite a massive increase in the global population. This is testament to the strong relationship between economic development and climate resilience.

In the context of the current heatwaves, this means that, instead of “climate action”, people should be demanding subsidies for air conditioners and lower energy prices from their governments — straightforward measures that would drastically lower the number of heat-related deaths, not empty promises that won’t make a difference in the short term (and will have a negligible impact in the long term). But this is what happens when nightmares and elitist fantasies replace the actual material conditions of people as the basis for politics — “saving the planet” becomes more important than saving actual human beings.

In this way, climate hysteria is completely distorting our perception of the world. Last week, a report by the World Meteorological Organization that the beginning of July was the world’s hottest week on record received widespread attention. At around the same time, another report was published — this time by the UN Development Programme — that was greeted with less interest. But it was arguably more important. It estimated that the Covid-19 pandemic and subsequent surge in inflation and borrowing costs had pushed an extra 165 million people into poverty, bringing the total global figure to 1.65 billion, over 20% of the world’s population.

Climate activists often argue that those living in poor countries are the ones who will suffer the most from climate change. This is true. But, once again, it is illogical to claim that our priority, and theirs, should therefore be to reduce global emissions as fast as possible. Poor people’s priority is not be poor. A UN global poll of nearly 10 million people found climate to be the lowest policy priority among the poor, far behind education, health, and nutrition.

Of course, these objectives can’t always be treated in isolation. There are often trade-offs: reducing or eliminating world poverty requires more growth, which inevitably entails more energy and therefore more emissions. Indeed, coping with the effects of climate change is itself energy-intensive, as the climate paradox of air conditioning makes clear. Faced with this realisation, environmentalists continue to entertain the notion that the future energy needs of developing countries can be met entirely by renewables — yet this is also a fantasy.

As a report published last year by the Breakthrough Institute makes clear, even though renewables (ideally in combination with nuclear energy, which is fully carbon-free) have a role to play in the development of Africa and other poor regions, many of the world’s poorer countries have no choice but to rely on fossil fuels in the coming years: coal, oil and natural gas. “Continued and increasing fossil-fuel consumption is regrettable, but it will mean more people will be fed with less land, reducing deforestation, and enabling the transition to modern agriculture,” write the report’s two co-authors, Vijaya Ramachandran of the Breakthrough Institute and Arthur Baker of the Development Innovation Lab at the University of Chicago. Remember, poverty is the leading cause of death in developing countries; more growth in these countries will mean more emissions but significantly fewer deaths. Moreover, helping the world’s poorest grow out of poverty will also make them more resilient in the face of climate change.

One might think that, even for those with environmentalist sympathies, the choice here isn’t too difficult to make: fewer deaths is surely a goal worth pursuing. Instead, development banks and international funding groups such as the World Bank and the European Investment Bank are increasingly linking finance to climate adaptation and mitigation, curtailing or halting their funding of fossil-fuel or nuclear projects. Here we can observe the best example of the way in which climate hysteria is pushing us to make increasingly irrational — and ultimately very dangerous, if not deadly — choices for poor and marginalised people everywhere, in the developing world as well as in rich countries.

This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do anything about climate change; it means that we need to strike the right balance between improving human welfare — which implies more emissions in the short term — and mitigating temperature rises. As long as poverty continues to kill more people than climate change, environmentalists who profess to care about saving the world should think about who they are saving it for.


Thomas Fazi is an UnHerd columnist and translator. His latest book is The Covid Consensus, co-authored with Toby Green.

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Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
1 year ago

I suppose the good thing about the ruling-class climate cult is that it will accelerate the global populist nationalist movement of the ordinary middle class: Dutch farmers, Canadian truckers, and American MAGAs.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

No doubt. The incoherent pursuit of net zero will be the undoing of the incompetent ruling elite. Of course Canada has to take a leading role in the madness. We just gave out $24 billion in subsidies for two battery plants. One of the projects for $13 billion will supposedly create 2,500 jobs – I’ll believe it when I see it – for a cool $6 million per job. Don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The scale of this handout literally dwarfs any other corporate welfare in Canadian history. The handouts amount to more than the cost of the factories.

David Jory
David Jory
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Older people chuckle.The 6 Million Dollar Man has been replaced The 6 Million Dollar Persons of a Non-Binary Nature who are Infinitely Woke.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

The scale of this handout literally dwarfs any other corporate welfare in Canadian history. The handouts amount to more than the cost of the factories.

David Jory
David Jory
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Older people chuckle.The 6 Million Dollar Man has been replaced The 6 Million Dollar Persons of a Non-Binary Nature who are Infinitely Woke.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

Don’t forget the Irish ranchers and the 200,000 cattle that will be culled to ‘fight global warming.’

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

I love the incoherent logic. Climate change will cause mass starvation so we must reduce food supplies today to prevent starvation tomorrow. How can anyone with an ounce of common sense square a circle like this?

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Maybe it’s because you took it out of context? I suspect the policy is to reduce over production and promote sustainable consumption.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

I suspect you have no idea what the ideological nonsense you regurtitate will mean for future generations living under communist tyranny.

Rob J
Rob J
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Pot accuses kettle of spewing ideological verbiage.
Within three words, pot types the phrase “future generations living under communist tyranny”.
Maybe hysteria isn’t confined to the climate-preoccupied classes.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob J

Yes amusing is it not? Infinite growth … or commie tyranny! Which will it be? My Humvee is a bulwark against Marxism!

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob J

.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Stoll
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob J

Yes amusing is it not? Infinite growth … or commie tyranny! Which will it be? My Humvee is a bulwark against Marxism!

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob J

.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Stoll
Rob J
Rob J
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Pot accuses kettle of spewing ideological verbiage.
Within three words, pot types the phrase “future generations living under communist tyranny”.
Maybe hysteria isn’t confined to the climate-preoccupied classes.

Jacqueline Walker
Jacqueline Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

It is I suppose as Ireland easily produces enough in that sector for its own needs, but it will also impact exports from that sector – weakening a domestic industry (Ireland is otherwise very reliant on multinationals) and ordinary people’s livelihoods – not just farmers but the rest of the rural sector that exists because they exist.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jacqueline Walker
laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

You mean “eat bugs”, don’t you?

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

I suspect you have no idea what the ideological nonsense you regurtitate will mean for future generations living under communist tyranny.

Jacqueline Walker
Jacqueline Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

It is I suppose as Ireland easily produces enough in that sector for its own needs, but it will also impact exports from that sector – weakening a domestic industry (Ireland is otherwise very reliant on multinationals) and ordinary people’s livelihoods – not just farmers but the rest of the rural sector that exists because they exist.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jacqueline Walker
laurence scaduto
laurence scaduto
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

You mean “eat bugs”, don’t you?

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Maybe it’s because you took it out of context? I suspect the policy is to reduce over production and promote sustainable consumption.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Cattle-culling? Reminds me of something Null Ferguson at Imperial College(who has literally zero qualifications for the job in the 1st place) did during his spectacular debut!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

I love the incoherent logic. Climate change will cause mass starvation so we must reduce food supplies today to prevent starvation tomorrow. How can anyone with an ounce of common sense square a circle like this?

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Cattle-culling? Reminds me of something Null Ferguson at Imperial College(who has literally zero qualifications for the job in the 1st place) did during his spectacular debut!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago

I stopped reading at “Yes, climate change and global warming are real — and yes, they are largely a result of human activity.”

CO₂ is a greenhouse gas. Beyond that, it’s all poorly understood pseudo-science, neo-Marxist globalist lies, and yes, hysteria.

Adam Bacon
Adam Bacon
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

I agree with you about CO2, but even if we were both wrong, and human induced global warming was real, still the IPCC reports acknowledge that the impacts would be fairly modest. Hence the current Net Zero delusion is doubly insane.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam Bacon

“Hence the current Net Zero delusion is doubly insane.”

Yes. And it will destroy western civilisation – exactly what the neo-Marxists want, and why they have spent decades infiltrating key institutions.

https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/the-dummies-guide-to-uk-net-zero

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Spot on. And you cannot repeat it enough – everything goes back to there: a utopian fallacy.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Spot on. And you cannot repeat it enough – everything goes back to there: a utopian fallacy.

Jacqueline Walker
Jacqueline Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam Bacon

Not only that, but this cargo cult idea that if we just reach net zero all the weather extremes will go away. I don’t think these people pushing this necessarily think that but that is definitely the subtext of every news report I hear these days.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam Bacon

“Hence the current Net Zero delusion is doubly insane.”

Yes. And it will destroy western civilisation – exactly what the neo-Marxists want, and why they have spent decades infiltrating key institutions.

https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/the-dummies-guide-to-uk-net-zero

Jacqueline Walker
Jacqueline Walker
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam Bacon

Not only that, but this cargo cult idea that if we just reach net zero all the weather extremes will go away. I don’t think these people pushing this necessarily think that but that is definitely the subtext of every news report I hear these days.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Me too. I’ve been hearing this BS in all its forms since grade school in the 70s. We were all going to freeze to death, or the oceans were going to drown New York City, or the ozone was being destroyed by hairspray – it’s all just so obviously a scam – like Al Gore’s carbon offset racket. The private jet elites believe this as much as they believed that Covid would kill everyone not wearing a mask.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

“or the ozone was being destroyed by hairspray”
Which it was. However global action was taken and they say the ozone layer is now almost perfectly restored. It does your credibility little service to point to this example of sober response to a real problem to buttress your claim that AGW is more hysteria. Oh, and at the current rate of sea level rise NYC will require dikes within a decade or two, this is mathematically unavoidable.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

What global action was taken to stop the the Great Hairspray Crisis? The product is in every supermarket and salon and women never stopped using it. What proof do we have that the ozone layer is “perfectly restored”, or that it was damaged in the first place? Dikes in NYC, you say? Hmmm, the real estate market is already in trouble there; better not tell would-be investors! I wonder what all those swells in the Hamptons will do with their flooded mansions. I live on Florida’s Gulf Coast. Guess I’d better sell up before Florida disappears like Atlantis . . .

Peter Coffey
Peter Coffey
1 year ago

Allison, hair sprays originally used chlorofluorocarbons as a propellant. When it was discovered that CFCs were opening a hole in the ozone layer which protects us from radiation, the US phased them out and replaced them with more benign propellants. An international protocol was adopted by most countries following the US lead. Satellite photos show that the ozone hole is largely gone and, as you note, hairsprays are still widely available.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Coffey

The elimination of CFCs has been rather detrimental for sufferers from Asthma.

The ‘new’ inhalers are nothing like as good as the old ones, but who really cares?

Presumably if the Ozone hole hadn’t been repaired we would ALL have ceased to exist by now?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Coffey

The elimination of CFCs has been rather detrimental for sufferers from Asthma.

The ‘new’ inhalers are nothing like as good as the old ones, but who really cares?

Presumably if the Ozone hole hadn’t been repaired we would ALL have ceased to exist by now?

Peter Coffey
Peter Coffey
1 year ago

Allison, hair sprays originally used chlorofluorocarbons as a propellant. When it was discovered that CFCs were opening a hole in the ozone layer which protects us from radiation, the US phased them out and replaced them with more benign propellants. An international protocol was adopted by most countries following the US lead. Satellite photos show that the ozone hole is largely gone and, as you note, hairsprays are still widely available.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Yes, regardless of anything else, sea level rise is upon us. Low lying populations will be on the move. THAT will be the problem.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Exactly. Whether one is a head-in-the-sand denialist or head-on-fire alarmist (or anything in between) the oceans will continue to rise at a pace that will displace a great portion of the global population.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

And that is happening very fast.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The faster the better.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Why? Why do you say that, Charles?

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

He calls it “Darwinian realism”.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

He calls it “Darwinian realism”.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Why? Why do you say that, Charles?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

The faster the better.

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Could ‘the problem’ perhaps just be that there are a few billion too many of us?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

And that is happening very fast.

Andrew Stoll
Andrew Stoll
1 year ago
Reply to  AJ Mac

Could ‘the problem’ perhaps just be that there are a few billion too many of us?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago

It’s been happening since the end of the Ice Age with far more dreadful impacts than a centimetre rise every ten years. The flooding of the Black Sea and the creation of the Nile 13000 years ago: more recently the flooding of the Dogger bank and the flooding of Frisia that sent whole populations fleeing south. Most of post Ice Age human history lies under the sea, as people settled on or near coasts.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago

Sea level is rising at a reasonably steady rate of 3cm a decade. A house brick every 30 years. Human populations generally regenerate their cities every 40-50 years. It’s manageable.
However sea level is also the key tell for climate change. The dramatic models and forecasts used by activists predict large sea-level rise. For that to happen there has to be a step-change acceleration in sea-level rise – at least 4 times the steady rate of the last few decades, if we are to be at 1m or more rise by 2100 as some of the dramatic forecasts predict.
Observationally it isn’t happening, and there have been 35 years saying sea level rise will accelerate rapidly with rising temperatures. Good scientists would be critiquing the theory because observations aren’t matching predictions.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

Exactly. Whether one is a head-in-the-sand denialist or head-on-fire alarmist (or anything in between) the oceans will continue to rise at a pace that will displace a great portion of the global population.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago

It’s been happening since the end of the Ice Age with far more dreadful impacts than a centimetre rise every ten years. The flooding of the Black Sea and the creation of the Nile 13000 years ago: more recently the flooding of the Dogger bank and the flooding of Frisia that sent whole populations fleeing south. Most of post Ice Age human history lies under the sea, as people settled on or near coasts.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago

Sea level is rising at a reasonably steady rate of 3cm a decade. A house brick every 30 years. Human populations generally regenerate their cities every 40-50 years. It’s manageable.
However sea level is also the key tell for climate change. The dramatic models and forecasts used by activists predict large sea-level rise. For that to happen there has to be a step-change acceleration in sea-level rise – at least 4 times the steady rate of the last few decades, if we are to be at 1m or more rise by 2100 as some of the dramatic forecasts predict.
Observationally it isn’t happening, and there have been 35 years saying sea level rise will accelerate rapidly with rising temperatures. Good scientists would be critiquing the theory because observations aren’t matching predictions.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Isnt the point more that an immediate and convincing danger produces global action, whereas the 35 years of AGW alarmism has been met by developing countries saying that it isnt fair to deny them the chance to catch up with Western industrial development: I heard this a lot when I taught students, Huge amounts of money have been spent by the World Bank sunce 1990 and more recently by the EU aid programme on projects meant to reduce global warming, and the recipients take the cash but with, as it were, their fingers crossed behind their back. Only the West believes in AGW.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

What global action was taken to stop the the Great Hairspray Crisis? The product is in every supermarket and salon and women never stopped using it. What proof do we have that the ozone layer is “perfectly restored”, or that it was damaged in the first place? Dikes in NYC, you say? Hmmm, the real estate market is already in trouble there; better not tell would-be investors! I wonder what all those swells in the Hamptons will do with their flooded mansions. I live on Florida’s Gulf Coast. Guess I’d better sell up before Florida disappears like Atlantis . . .

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Yes, regardless of anything else, sea level rise is upon us. Low lying populations will be on the move. THAT will be the problem.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Isnt the point more that an immediate and convincing danger produces global action, whereas the 35 years of AGW alarmism has been met by developing countries saying that it isnt fair to deny them the chance to catch up with Western industrial development: I heard this a lot when I taught students, Huge amounts of money have been spent by the World Bank sunce 1990 and more recently by the EU aid programme on projects meant to reduce global warming, and the recipients take the cash but with, as it were, their fingers crossed behind their back. Only the West believes in AGW.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

“or the ozone was being destroyed by hairspray”
Which it was. However global action was taken and they say the ozone layer is now almost perfectly restored. It does your credibility little service to point to this example of sober response to a real problem to buttress your claim that AGW is more hysteria. Oh, and at the current rate of sea level rise NYC will require dikes within a decade or two, this is mathematically unavoidable.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

“pseudo-science, neo-Marxist globalist lies, and yes, hysteria.”
Are you able to write in anything other than right-wing group think clichés? Are you a scientist?  You sound very convinced, and very knowledgeable, certainly a lot more than me. I’d like to learn from smart people like you. Can you point us to your peer-reviewed sources please? 

Duncan White
Duncan White
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

firstly why do observations of marxist gait-prop have to be singularly from ‘right wing group think cliches’ ? if anything that is a cliche, however thats a discourse for another day
peer reviewed sources…
first off go to Clintel where over 1500 real scientists have signed the Declaration, not faux science ‘modellers’ et al
second try a few of these ….
“Climate Change the facts” Marohasy
”Green Murder” Ian Plimer
”Heaven & Earth” Ian Plimer
”Hiding The Decline” Andrew Montford
”The Deliberate Corruption of Climate Science” Tim Ball
”Unsettled” Steve Koonin
”Global Warming and Other Eco Myths” Ronald Bailey editor
”The Real Global Warming Disaster” Christopher Booker
”Inconvenient Facts” Gregory Wrighstone
”Human Caused Global Warming” Dr Tim Ball
when you’ve got thru them come back and I’ll add some links
that’s if you’ve got further than dismissing all these professorial level authors as ‘right wing group thinkers’

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Duncan White

“where over 1500 real scientists”
Who counts as a ‘real scientist’ then? I suspect that if a scientist supports your view he is ‘real’ and if he does not, he is not, yes?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Duncan White

For balance, and a bit of light relief from reading, you might kick back and watch some of David Attenborough’smost recent documentaries.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Duncan White

“where over 1500 real scientists”
Who counts as a ‘real scientist’ then? I suspect that if a scientist supports your view he is ‘real’ and if he does not, he is not, yes?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Duncan White

For balance, and a bit of light relief from reading, you might kick back and watch some of David Attenborough’smost recent documentaries.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I challenge you to read any article or listen to any podcast with Bjorn Lomborg. If you are being open minded, it can’t help but change your perspective.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

He’s not being open minded, so he won’t.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Now, now don’t project.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Now, now don’t project.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Lomborg is a politician funded by the sceptic industry.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

No, he’s an economist who takes the IPCC’s predictions and modelling at face value, and then calculates what is the best course for humanity given the benefits as well as costs of both climate change, phasing out fossil fuels in favour of renewables, and mitigation measures.
And determined that striving for “Net Zero” by 2050 (let alone 2030) is not the best use of humanity’s limited resources; not even close.
His calculations are open and based on open sources and anyone can challenge them and prove they’re wrong. No one has (to my knowledge).

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

Really. Most people look at his work and note how he cherry picks certain datasets in order to make narrow compelling observations. Let’s face it, anyone buying a book with the title ‘False Alarm’ is merely a victim of their own confirmation bias.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Oh yeah? Name some of these “most people”, please.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Oh yeah? Name some of these “most people”, please.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

Really. Most people look at his work and note how he cherry picks certain datasets in order to make narrow compelling observations. Let’s face it, anyone buying a book with the title ‘False Alarm’ is merely a victim of their own confirmation bias.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Blimey.i thought he was an academic who wrote interesting books and was banned from writing for Nature after complaints from a bunch of non climate scientists . Sort of like the Lancet and Covid.

Last edited 1 year ago by Anna Bramwell
Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

No, he’s an economist who takes the IPCC’s predictions and modelling at face value, and then calculates what is the best course for humanity given the benefits as well as costs of both climate change, phasing out fossil fuels in favour of renewables, and mitigation measures.
And determined that striving for “Net Zero” by 2050 (let alone 2030) is not the best use of humanity’s limited resources; not even close.
His calculations are open and based on open sources and anyone can challenge them and prove they’re wrong. No one has (to my knowledge).

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Blimey.i thought he was an academic who wrote interesting books and was banned from writing for Nature after complaints from a bunch of non climate scientists . Sort of like the Lancet and Covid.

Last edited 1 year ago by Anna Bramwell
John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

He’s not being open minded, so he won’t.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Lomborg is a politician funded by the sceptic industry.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Covid, Covid, Covid and Covid

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

We need to start calling it Wuhan Flu, because it offends the woke scum.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

We need to start calling it Wuhan Flu, because it offends the woke scum.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Right-wing group think clichés”

And there’s no better cliché than that. Clown.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

“And there’s no better cliché than that. Clown.”
Which does not negate his point. If one points out a cliche using another cliche, does that make the first cliche go away? IMHO he is correct that Deniers are so quick to dismiss anything they don’t want to hear as Marxism that it’s comical.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

I’m going to junk all my perjoratives and just use “Marxist” for everything I don’t like.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago

At least he capitalised “Deniers”

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago

At least he capitalised “Deniers”

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

I’m going to junk all my perjoratives and just use “Marxist” for everything I don’t like.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Can you not disagree without name calling? It reflects badly on you.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

“And there’s no better cliché than that. Clown.”
Which does not negate his point. If one points out a cliche using another cliche, does that make the first cliche go away? IMHO he is correct that Deniers are so quick to dismiss anything they don’t want to hear as Marxism that it’s comical.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Can you not disagree without name calling? It reflects badly on you.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I recommend you go on YouTube and listen to Prof.Curry and Prof.Lindzen. There are also plenty of other interviews by “sceptical” Climate Scientists, physicists and biologists, like the former founder of Green Peace, Patrick Moore. He also published a great new book, which I recently read. In the latest video by Curry, she was explaining, that there is no Climate Crisis, even if you dig deep into the latest IPCC reports. Some years ago she gave a lecture, comparing CO2 to a hair on an elephant‘s tail, the elephant being a metaphor of the atmosphere (man made CO2 only 3% of 0.04%). The whole of recent Climate Science is solely based on computer models…
The current hysteria about Global Warming Crisis reminds me very much of our recent Covid “crisis”, when eminent scientists were cut out from all discussions on Social Media and much of MSM. According to the Twitter files they were silenced by government agencies like the CIA and FBI.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

The current hysteria about Global Warming Crisis reminds me very much of our recent Covid “crisis”
Apt comparison. Indeed, vast amounts of misbehavior happened regarding Covid, yes? The list of mistakes and lies and incompetence and Marxist malfeasance was long. Yet I put it to you that Covid was real and that many died from it and that some action was required notwithstanding that you could have handled it much better, yes? Similarly, AGW is real and action should be taken. True, as will all real science, there will be dissent of one kind or another, but with 99% of scientist more or less ‘on side’ should we say that the 1% prove that the whole thing is made up?

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Can‘t link the paper here, but thousands of scientists recently signed a document, which says, the hysteria we are witnessing right now, has nothing to do with science. Where did you get the 99%? Some say 97%… Anyway, even Curry and Lindzen say, it “might” be a possibility, that CO2 contributes a tiny percent to Global Warming. They of course were put into the category of 97% agreeing on man made Global Warming. But the subject is so complex, that listening to Linzen and an Indian Physicist discuss the science makes my head spin. Doubt any of the journalists, let alone the politician understand anything. Also most of the IPCC papers are very vague with lots of “might”, “would” and “could” in it. Definitely not settled science.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Kent Ausburn
Kent Ausburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

No, 99% of scientists are not “more or less onside” with the climate hysteria. I’m a PhD geologist, you know, scientists who actually study the history of the earth, which necessarily includes the history of climate changes through time, and I assure you that most geologists I know are not onside with the concept that CO2 is driving contemprary increased temperatures. No more than it drove historic significant increases in temperature.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Can‘t link the paper here, but thousands of scientists recently signed a document, which says, the hysteria we are witnessing right now, has nothing to do with science. Where did you get the 99%? Some say 97%… Anyway, even Curry and Lindzen say, it “might” be a possibility, that CO2 contributes a tiny percent to Global Warming. They of course were put into the category of 97% agreeing on man made Global Warming. But the subject is so complex, that listening to Linzen and an Indian Physicist discuss the science makes my head spin. Doubt any of the journalists, let alone the politician understand anything. Also most of the IPCC papers are very vague with lots of “might”, “would” and “could” in it. Definitely not settled science.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Kent Ausburn
Kent Ausburn
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

No, 99% of scientists are not “more or less onside” with the climate hysteria. I’m a PhD geologist, you know, scientists who actually study the history of the earth, which necessarily includes the history of climate changes through time, and I assure you that most geologists I know are not onside with the concept that CO2 is driving contemprary increased temperatures. No more than it drove historic significant increases in temperature.

Gordon Chamberlain
Gordon Chamberlain
1 year ago

Absolutely bang on. Me and my wife heard all about this when we were at college in the mid 1970s. We have read and watched scientists explain about what the actual data shows and their conclusions are that there is no man made warming. The fact that a gas that is only .04% of the atmosphere and human beings are only responsible for 3% of that .04 is completely laughable. My understanding is that CO2 is the gas of life and if it fell below 200 parts per million then plants would die and then of course all animal and human life would die.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

The current hysteria about Global Warming Crisis reminds me very much of our recent Covid “crisis”
Apt comparison. Indeed, vast amounts of misbehavior happened regarding Covid, yes? The list of mistakes and lies and incompetence and Marxist malfeasance was long. Yet I put it to you that Covid was real and that many died from it and that some action was required notwithstanding that you could have handled it much better, yes? Similarly, AGW is real and action should be taken. True, as will all real science, there will be dissent of one kind or another, but with 99% of scientist more or less ‘on side’ should we say that the 1% prove that the whole thing is made up?

Gordon Chamberlain
Gordon Chamberlain
1 year ago

Absolutely bang on. Me and my wife heard all about this when we were at college in the mid 1970s. We have read and watched scientists explain about what the actual data shows and their conclusions are that there is no man made warming. The fact that a gas that is only .04% of the atmosphere and human beings are only responsible for 3% of that .04 is completely laughable. My understanding is that CO2 is the gas of life and if it fell below 200 parts per million then plants would die and then of course all animal and human life would die.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

One does not need peer-reviewed sources to smell a commie! JS knows that his opinions are Good and that anyone telling him anything he doesn’t want to hear is Bad. It is that simple, why confuse things?

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I love that leftist cliché that says no one should comment unless they are a scientist. I’m no scientist, yet I believe in gravity. I also believe that water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit and water boils at 212 degrees. If someone claimed that water boils at 95 degrees and I challenge them, am I right-wing group thinker too?

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

At 65 hPa they’d be corrrect.

stephen archer
stephen archer
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

At 65 hPa they’d be corrrect.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Peer reviewed sources” is a bit of a joke these days. A lot of people have lists of the peer review publications that wil support their particular dodgy views. Even publications such as The Lancet have been found guilty of (extreme) bias on certain subjects/authors. Add to your reading list two very good primers: “Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom” by Patrick Moore an important founder member of Greenpeace who left them at about the same time that I stopped supporting them. “False Alarm” by Bjorn Lomborg an independent scientist (not reliant on government or NGO handouts)

Last edited 1 year ago by Doug Pingel
Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Well I’m a scientist.
Presumably you believe the claims that there’s a “scientific consensus” with regards to CAGW (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming).
I’ve been taking an interest in this subject since the early ’80’s, when a few of the more alarmist climate scientists would actually debate with the more moderate (“lukewarmist”) climate scientists. The latters’ arguments were usually more persuasive, and pretty soon the alarmists stopped taking part in debates.
But after years of lukewarmists being denounced by activists (and alarmist scientists) as “deniers”, it was suddenly announced that there was a “scientific consensus” on CAGW, but there wasn’t; there was a manufactured consensus amongst activists, activist-scientists, politicians and bureaucrats which steered funding and publicity towards alarmists, and away from anyone who remained sceptical.
With regards to “peer review”, the leaked “Climategate” emails reveal that this has been replaced with “pal review”, and, as Richard Lindzen recently attested, any editor daring to publish lukewarmist research in a scientific journal now faces dismissal (this has happened to him twice).
Scientists are no less venal than anyone else, and can no more afford to lose grants or jobs than anyone else; as the politically (and financially) manufactured consensus over mRNA vaccines’ safety and efficacy exemplifies.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

The best comment today, although Mr Mathew Powell seems to disagree with you.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

The best comment today, although Mr Mathew Powell seems to disagree with you.

Duncan White
Duncan White
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

firstly why do observations of marxist gait-prop have to be singularly from ‘right wing group think cliches’ ? if anything that is a cliche, however thats a discourse for another day
peer reviewed sources…
first off go to Clintel where over 1500 real scientists have signed the Declaration, not faux science ‘modellers’ et al
second try a few of these ….
“Climate Change the facts” Marohasy
”Green Murder” Ian Plimer
”Heaven & Earth” Ian Plimer
”Hiding The Decline” Andrew Montford
”The Deliberate Corruption of Climate Science” Tim Ball
”Unsettled” Steve Koonin
”Global Warming and Other Eco Myths” Ronald Bailey editor
”The Real Global Warming Disaster” Christopher Booker
”Inconvenient Facts” Gregory Wrighstone
”Human Caused Global Warming” Dr Tim Ball
when you’ve got thru them come back and I’ll add some links
that’s if you’ve got further than dismissing all these professorial level authors as ‘right wing group thinkers’

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I challenge you to read any article or listen to any podcast with Bjorn Lomborg. If you are being open minded, it can’t help but change your perspective.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Covid, Covid, Covid and Covid

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Right-wing group think clichés”

And there’s no better cliché than that. Clown.

Stephanie Surface
Stephanie Surface
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I recommend you go on YouTube and listen to Prof.Curry and Prof.Lindzen. There are also plenty of other interviews by “sceptical” Climate Scientists, physicists and biologists, like the former founder of Green Peace, Patrick Moore. He also published a great new book, which I recently read. In the latest video by Curry, she was explaining, that there is no Climate Crisis, even if you dig deep into the latest IPCC reports. Some years ago she gave a lecture, comparing CO2 to a hair on an elephant‘s tail, the elephant being a metaphor of the atmosphere (man made CO2 only 3% of 0.04%). The whole of recent Climate Science is solely based on computer models…
The current hysteria about Global Warming Crisis reminds me very much of our recent Covid “crisis”, when eminent scientists were cut out from all discussions on Social Media and much of MSM. According to the Twitter files they were silenced by government agencies like the CIA and FBI.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephanie Surface
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

One does not need peer-reviewed sources to smell a commie! JS knows that his opinions are Good and that anyone telling him anything he doesn’t want to hear is Bad. It is that simple, why confuse things?

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I love that leftist cliché that says no one should comment unless they are a scientist. I’m no scientist, yet I believe in gravity. I also believe that water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit and water boils at 212 degrees. If someone claimed that water boils at 95 degrees and I challenge them, am I right-wing group thinker too?

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Peer reviewed sources” is a bit of a joke these days. A lot of people have lists of the peer review publications that wil support their particular dodgy views. Even publications such as The Lancet have been found guilty of (extreme) bias on certain subjects/authors. Add to your reading list two very good primers: “Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom” by Patrick Moore an important founder member of Greenpeace who left them at about the same time that I stopped supporting them. “False Alarm” by Bjorn Lomborg an independent scientist (not reliant on government or NGO handouts)

Last edited 1 year ago by Doug Pingel
Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Well I’m a scientist.
Presumably you believe the claims that there’s a “scientific consensus” with regards to CAGW (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming).
I’ve been taking an interest in this subject since the early ’80’s, when a few of the more alarmist climate scientists would actually debate with the more moderate (“lukewarmist”) climate scientists. The latters’ arguments were usually more persuasive, and pretty soon the alarmists stopped taking part in debates.
But after years of lukewarmists being denounced by activists (and alarmist scientists) as “deniers”, it was suddenly announced that there was a “scientific consensus” on CAGW, but there wasn’t; there was a manufactured consensus amongst activists, activist-scientists, politicians and bureaucrats which steered funding and publicity towards alarmists, and away from anyone who remained sceptical.
With regards to “peer review”, the leaked “Climategate” emails reveal that this has been replaced with “pal review”, and, as Richard Lindzen recently attested, any editor daring to publish lukewarmist research in a scientific journal now faces dismissal (this has happened to him twice).
Scientists are no less venal than anyone else, and can no more afford to lose grants or jobs than anyone else; as the politically (and financially) manufactured consensus over mRNA vaccines’ safety and efficacy exemplifies.

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

While many, including myself, agree with you regarding CO2 not being the root of all evil, sadly the vast majority of people have been sucked in and therefore this is now an article of faith for them. Thus any article which disputes the faith would be rejected by the masses, therefore it makes sense to at least pretend to believe the main tenet whilst trying to apply rational thought to counter the nonsense that is erroneously generated by that main tenet.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Possibly. My own view is that appeasement doesn’t work.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Rational thought?? In the year 2023? In the post-Covid world? You must be a romantic.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Possibly. My own view is that appeasement doesn’t work.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

Rational thought?? In the year 2023? In the post-Covid world? You must be a romantic.

Peter Beer
Peter Beer
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

You missed a good article then…

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Beer

Indeed. It’s the first one by Fazi i’ve been able to read all the way through for some time. I thought his case was pretty well-argued.

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Beer

Indeed. It’s the first one by Fazi i’ve been able to read all the way through for some time. I thought his case was pretty well-argued.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Alternatively it is a cynical bit of opportunism by those with a vested financial interest

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

A scientist speaks.
I’d love to hear your ‘well-understood’ scientific opinion- a trawl through your favourite scientifically illiterate political blog rants doesnt really substitute for having the slightest grasp of the subject, sadly.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Content-free ad hominem drivel doesn’t really substitute for having the slightest grasp of the subject, sadly.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Stating the fact that you are scientifically illiterate is not an “ad hominem”. It’s a statement of fact. If that upsets you, there we go.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Stating the fact that you are scientifically illiterate is not an “ad hominem”. It’s a statement of fact. If that upsets you, there we go.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Strange, I upvoted your comment but the counter then moved to ‘-2’. Glitch in the matrix?

Mônica
Mônica
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

No, just the app or website updating other votes alongside yours.

Mônica
Mônica
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

No, just the app or website updating other votes alongside yours.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Welcome back ‘Thorax’!
So you have metamorphosed from an ART bluffer to Scientist. This should be fun.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

No, Charlie dearest, I’m not pretending to be a scientist (or, “Scientist” as you say), unlike the Dunner-Kruger fetishists on this the manifestation of internet ‘personal thruthiness’.
Scientists are all Marxists, Charlie- I had that Newton in the back of the cab once….

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

No, Charlie dearest, I’m not pretending to be a scientist (or, “Scientist” as you say), unlike the Dunner-Kruger fetishists on this the manifestation of internet ‘personal thruthiness’.
Scientists are all Marxists, Charlie- I had that Newton in the back of the cab once….

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Content-free ad hominem drivel doesn’t really substitute for having the slightest grasp of the subject, sadly.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Strange, I upvoted your comment but the counter then moved to ‘-2’. Glitch in the matrix?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Welcome back ‘Thorax’!
So you have metamorphosed from an ART bluffer to Scientist. This should be fun.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

The elephant- no, mammoth in the room- Climate change also has natural geological causes- most notably gas emissions from rocks as well as volcanoes which can greatly alter the global climate after an exceptionally large eruption of VEI-6 or above. And one such eruption did occur in the Pacific in January 2022 ie the Hunga-Tonga eruption which was reported to have ejected unprecedented amounts of water vapour- a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 into the atmosphere, and thus predicted that this will heat up global temperatures somewhat for a considerable period, maybe 5-10 years if I recall. So if there actually is a heatwave, we ought to be educating ourselves about geology & volcanology, not the hogwash spewed by the establishment media or Greta Thunberg, the latter whom apparently has zero knowledge of these factors.
And paradoxially this eruption was also likely the reason why last winter was unusually cold- a common effect of the 1st year or two after an eruption of such size due to the ejected sulphur partially blocking out the sun’s rays. The infamous Year Without Summer of 1816 was caused by the colossal Mt. Tambora eruption(VEI-7) the previous year- perhaps the biggest in the last 300 years, and both Krakatoa & Pinatubo(both VEI-6) produced the same effect to somewhat lesser extents in their respective infamous eruptions in 1883 & 1991. Why this hasn’t been discussed last winter is beyond me.
Apparently those screaming:”Save the planet!” don’t seem to know the planet that well, and a senior geologist I’m acquainted to actually agreed with my observations.

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

And we know virtually nothing about underwater volcanoes. We are just starting to develop the technology to map the deeper ones. The hubris of climate change alarmists is breathtaking.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Greta: Our house is on fire!
The Earth’s mantle: Oh you don’t say?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

the Earths’s mantle- what is Josh Woods saying?? Really? Josh Woods? Oh my God, he’s briefly read something on the internet! This is game-changing!!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

the Earths’s mantle- what is Josh Woods saying?? Really? Josh Woods? Oh my God, he’s briefly read something on the internet! This is game-changing!!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It must have been a bit like this when the Roman Empire (fatally) adopted Christianity in the fourth century, as ‘they’ call it.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Who is this “we”? Why should we listen to Jim Veenbass, ideological blowhard and scientific know-nothing, rather than people who actually devote their lives to studying the Earth?
The “hubris” is yours, mate. Don’t assume your ignorance is a measure of anything else.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Greta: Our house is on fire!
The Earth’s mantle: Oh you don’t say?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It must have been a bit like this when the Roman Empire (fatally) adopted Christianity in the fourth century, as ‘they’ call it.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Who is this “we”? Why should we listen to Jim Veenbass, ideological blowhard and scientific know-nothing, rather than people who actually devote their lives to studying the Earth?
The “hubris” is yours, mate. Don’t assume your ignorance is a measure of anything else.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

Hilarious!!

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Perhaps that’s the adjective geologists would use to describe the likes of you. Plus you’re rather picky with the ‘science’ you want to believe, aren’t you? How discerning!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

So you’re not “picky” about the science you want to believe?
Your whole point is that huge areas of contemporary science are worthless junk, despite your remarkable lack of serious knowledge of them And yet you claim someone else is “picky with the science (they) want to believe.”
You seem remarkably incapable of coherent thinking here- is lots of science junk, or is that “picky”?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

You need help Thorax, counselling I think you chaps call it, beforehand it is too late.

Incidentally you won’t get it here on UnHerd, so best return to Twitter for all our sakes.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago

Perhaps he’d be better to emigrate to Threads instead, the Zuck will make him feel even cozier there than on Twitter!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago

Perhaps he’d be better to emigrate to Threads instead, the Zuck will make him feel even cozier there than on Twitter!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Bzzz- wrong. Your assumptions of my point are completely off. Try again if you can.
I smell some hay burning- might wanna check if it’s yours? Don’t want you to lose your beloved straw man!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

You need help Thorax, counselling I think you chaps call it, beforehand it is too late.

Incidentally you won’t get it here on UnHerd, so best return to Twitter for all our sakes.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Bzzz- wrong. Your assumptions of my point are completely off. Try again if you can.
I smell some hay burning- might wanna check if it’s yours? Don’t want you to lose your beloved straw man!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

So you’re not “picky” about the science you want to believe?
Your whole point is that huge areas of contemporary science are worthless junk, despite your remarkable lack of serious knowledge of them And yet you claim someone else is “picky with the science (they) want to believe.”
You seem remarkably incapable of coherent thinking here- is lots of science junk, or is that “picky”?

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Perhaps that’s the adjective geologists would use to describe the likes of you. Plus you’re rather picky with the ‘science’ you want to believe, aren’t you? How discerning!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

Why are actual scientists so stupid, and random conspiritorial ranty blokes on the internet so incredibly brilliant?
It’s a question we all need to ponder….

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

So you’re implying that geologists & volcanologists ain’t no actual scientists? Enlightening indeed, I really need to ponder that now!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

So you’re implying that geologists & volcanologists ain’t no actual scientists? Enlightening indeed, I really need to ponder that now!

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

Please, please, PLEASE write this thesis up properly and send it to a serious science journal.This needs to be known NOW, as no actual scientists have a clue about what you understand so well.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Thanks for reminding me Johnny Quest, but I’m afraid that my efforts would’ve been obsolete- A number of esteemed historians & geologists have beaten me to it by decades, and I ain’t one bit jealous of them- I learnt my knowledge from them!

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Thanks for reminding me Johnny Quest, but I’m afraid that my efforts would’ve been obsolete- A number of esteemed historians & geologists have beaten me to it by decades, and I ain’t one bit jealous of them- I learnt my knowledge from them!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

And we know virtually nothing about underwater volcanoes. We are just starting to develop the technology to map the deeper ones. The hubris of climate change alarmists is breathtaking.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

Hilarious!!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

Why are actual scientists so stupid, and random conspiritorial ranty blokes on the internet so incredibly brilliant?
It’s a question we all need to ponder….

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Josh Woods

Please, please, PLEASE write this thesis up properly and send it to a serious science journal.This needs to be known NOW, as no actual scientists have a clue about what you understand so well.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Me too. None of these writers mention that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, with a history of violent climate change, and mankind has been around for a miniscule fraction of that time. Even more miniscule is the amount of time we have been measuring the climate, hence the headlines that blare, “Highest temperatures on record.” Our records only go back about 125 years out of 4.5 billion, for heaven’s sake.
The last chuckle comes from the fact that we can’t even accurately predict the weather for tomorrow.

Kevin Godwin
Kevin Godwin
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Indeed, climate measuring has only been around very recently and doesn’t seem to acknowledge or explain historical climatic events. For example the ‘little ice-age’ a few hundred years ago where the river Thames froze, or the warming period during the ‘Holocene’. Well before human intervention.
I watched BBC news yesterday reporting on the ‘extreme’ heatwave affecting southern Europe. Quite alarmist. The report also mentioned that temperatures in Death-Valley USA reached 53°, not quite reaching the highest recorded temperature of 56° experienced in 1913. Perhaps a climate ‘alarmist’ could explain that one!

Kevin Godwin
Kevin Godwin
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Indeed, climate measuring has only been around very recently and doesn’t seem to acknowledge or explain historical climatic events. For example the ‘little ice-age’ a few hundred years ago where the river Thames froze, or the warming period during the ‘Holocene’. Well before human intervention.
I watched BBC news yesterday reporting on the ‘extreme’ heatwave affecting southern Europe. Quite alarmist. The report also mentioned that temperatures in Death-Valley USA reached 53°, not quite reaching the highest recorded temperature of 56° experienced in 1913. Perhaps a climate ‘alarmist’ could explain that one!

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Me too. If this is true then there was no climate change before we evolved. Perhaps we will soon be reading that dinosaur farts caused it in the past.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

An Argentinosaurus would probably produce a fart equivalent to that of perhaps eighty Irish cows. The effects would be something like this, from Geoffrey Chaucer:-

“This Nicholas just then let fly a fart
As loud as it had been a thunder-clap,
And well-nigh blinded Absalom, poor chap;”*

(* The Miller’s Tale, Absalom’s revenge,, lines 698-707.)

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

Has a single scientist ever claimed that the planet’s climate did not change before humans evolved?
No.
Therefore- your post is merely silly internet drivel. Did you actually have a serious point to make? If so, please make it….

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Speak for yourself Thorax.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Speak for yourself Thorax.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

Has a single scientist ever claimed that the planet’s climate did not change before humans evolved?
No.
Therefore- your post is merely silly internet drivel. Did you actually have a serious point to make? If so, please make it….

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

An Argentinosaurus would probably produce a fart equivalent to that of perhaps eighty Irish cows. The effects would be something like this, from Geoffrey Chaucer:-

“This Nicholas just then let fly a fart
As loud as it had been a thunder-clap,
And well-nigh blinded Absalom, poor chap;”*

(* The Miller’s Tale, Absalom’s revenge,, lines 698-707.)

Adam Bacon
Adam Bacon
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

I agree with you about CO2, but even if we were both wrong, and human induced global warming was real, still the IPCC reports acknowledge that the impacts would be fairly modest. Hence the current Net Zero delusion is doubly insane.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Me too. I’ve been hearing this BS in all its forms since grade school in the 70s. We were all going to freeze to death, or the oceans were going to drown New York City, or the ozone was being destroyed by hairspray – it’s all just so obviously a scam – like Al Gore’s carbon offset racket. The private jet elites believe this as much as they believed that Covid would kill everyone not wearing a mask.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

“pseudo-science, neo-Marxist globalist lies, and yes, hysteria.”
Are you able to write in anything other than right-wing group think clichés? Are you a scientist?  You sound very convinced, and very knowledgeable, certainly a lot more than me. I’d like to learn from smart people like you. Can you point us to your peer-reviewed sources please? 

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

While many, including myself, agree with you regarding CO2 not being the root of all evil, sadly the vast majority of people have been sucked in and therefore this is now an article of faith for them. Thus any article which disputes the faith would be rejected by the masses, therefore it makes sense to at least pretend to believe the main tenet whilst trying to apply rational thought to counter the nonsense that is erroneously generated by that main tenet.

Peter Beer
Peter Beer
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

You missed a good article then…

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Alternatively it is a cynical bit of opportunism by those with a vested financial interest

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

A scientist speaks.
I’d love to hear your ‘well-understood’ scientific opinion- a trawl through your favourite scientifically illiterate political blog rants doesnt really substitute for having the slightest grasp of the subject, sadly.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

The elephant- no, mammoth in the room- Climate change also has natural geological causes- most notably gas emissions from rocks as well as volcanoes which can greatly alter the global climate after an exceptionally large eruption of VEI-6 or above. And one such eruption did occur in the Pacific in January 2022 ie the Hunga-Tonga eruption which was reported to have ejected unprecedented amounts of water vapour- a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2 into the atmosphere, and thus predicted that this will heat up global temperatures somewhat for a considerable period, maybe 5-10 years if I recall. So if there actually is a heatwave, we ought to be educating ourselves about geology & volcanology, not the hogwash spewed by the establishment media or Greta Thunberg, the latter whom apparently has zero knowledge of these factors.
And paradoxially this eruption was also likely the reason why last winter was unusually cold- a common effect of the 1st year or two after an eruption of such size due to the ejected sulphur partially blocking out the sun’s rays. The infamous Year Without Summer of 1816 was caused by the colossal Mt. Tambora eruption(VEI-7) the previous year- perhaps the biggest in the last 300 years, and both Krakatoa & Pinatubo(both VEI-6) produced the same effect to somewhat lesser extents in their respective infamous eruptions in 1883 & 1991. Why this hasn’t been discussed last winter is beyond me.
Apparently those screaming:”Save the planet!” don’t seem to know the planet that well, and a senior geologist I’m acquainted to actually agreed with my observations.

Last edited 1 year ago by Josh Woods
Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Me too. None of these writers mention that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, with a history of violent climate change, and mankind has been around for a miniscule fraction of that time. Even more miniscule is the amount of time we have been measuring the climate, hence the headlines that blare, “Highest temperatures on record.” Our records only go back about 125 years out of 4.5 billion, for heaven’s sake.
The last chuckle comes from the fact that we can’t even accurately predict the weather for tomorrow.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Me too. If this is true then there was no climate change before we evolved. Perhaps we will soon be reading that dinosaur farts caused it in the past.

R H van der Gaag
R H van der Gaag
1 year ago

“Dutch farmers, Canadian truckers, and American MAGAs” — the new fascists.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

The ruling elite will, as they always do, simply charge the spots an latch onto the next big thing.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago

Absolutely. Please see the link in my previous response.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago

Absolutely. Please see the link in my previous response.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

No doubt. The incoherent pursuit of net zero will be the undoing of the incompetent ruling elite. Of course Canada has to take a leading role in the madness. We just gave out $24 billion in subsidies for two battery plants. One of the projects for $13 billion will supposedly create 2,500 jobs – I’ll believe it when I see it – for a cool $6 million per job. Don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago

Don’t forget the Irish ranchers and the 200,000 cattle that will be culled to ‘fight global warming.’

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago

I stopped reading at “Yes, climate change and global warming are real — and yes, they are largely a result of human activity.”

CO₂ is a greenhouse gas. Beyond that, it’s all poorly understood pseudo-science, neo-Marxist globalist lies, and yes, hysteria.

R H van der Gaag
R H van der Gaag
1 year ago

“Dutch farmers, Canadian truckers, and American MAGAs” — the new fascists.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago

The ruling elite will, as they always do, simply charge the spots an latch onto the next big thing.

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
1 year ago

I suppose the good thing about the ruling-class climate cult is that it will accelerate the global populist nationalist movement of the ordinary middle class: Dutch farmers, Canadian truckers, and American MAGAs.

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago

Great article, thanks! You wrote “poverty is the leading cause of death in developing countries” and “eliminating world poverty requires more growth”. I would not disagree, but I would also mention that the rate of population increase in “developing” countries is a major cause of poverty. African irregular migrants are escaping from countries where population has doubled since the 1990’s. The excess population is heading for Europe.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

Out of date. Population growth in the vast majority of countries is rapidly declining and this trend is expected to continue. Better healthcare, more children surviving, more girls in schools all correlate strongly with this. Africa was also traditionally an under populated continent compared with Europe and Asia.

Migration is undoubtedly a real issue – but that’s just because people know that Europe and North America are much richer places, and if course that it is rather likely that your voyage will prove successful!

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Africans deciding to become irregular migrants today base their decisions on the demographic changes in the recent past, not on your predicted future. Even the problems in Syria, where the population had quadrupled since the 1970’s, were a result of demographic pressures (correlated with a religious dimension), hence Assad being very happy to see a diaspora.
You refer to countries being “under populated”, but there is no such thing. A country has some natural resources that can be exploited by its population, but generally speaking, the more people there are, the more difficult it is to extract the marginal value from a resource.
Liberal demographers extrapolate trends when it suits them, but migration has interesting effects. For example, when a couple moves from Bangladesh to the UK, they have a number of children that is twice the average number in Bangladesh.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Kwasi-Modo
Simon Denis
Simon Denis
1 year ago

Quite so. And one can see the reasons for this. To start with, their habits and attitudes are still the result of relative poverty – hence large families. Second, their religion enjoins fruitfulness. Third, as de facto colonists in new territory, the government of which denigrates its own people as hostile and actively encourages separatism, their first instinct is to build up numbers.
And congratulations on spiking that absurd point about “declining populations” in Africa. Someone might have turned off the tap but the tub is still overflowing. Your antagonist seems to have trouble in realising this – just as the fleshy face fellow arguing with Farage and Hartley Brewer about “climate change” has trouble understanding that just because the Chinese have stopped building mega-coal-fired power stations, it doesn’t mean they won’t keep filling the skies with smoke.
How wishful and wide of the facts these poor bleating libs are!

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon Denis
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

“How wishful and wide of the facts these poor bleating libs are!”
And yet the point you just made would seem to indicate that you understand that there is a problem with Chinese emissions. What I see here is poor bleating righties mostly — poor bleating libs are a tiny minority.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

A problem which makes the proposals of you poor bleating libs utterly irrelevant, for anything done in the west will be more than eclipsed by Chinese smoke. What are you going to do? Declare war?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

But climate change is a hoax, so it doesn’t matter what China does.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Quite so. But the libs can’t even argue successfully from their own premises.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Quite so. But the libs can’t even argue successfully from their own premises.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

But climate change is a hoax, so it doesn’t matter what China does.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

A problem which makes the proposals of you poor bleating libs utterly irrelevant, for anything done in the west will be more than eclipsed by Chinese smoke. What are you going to do? Declare war?

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Denis

“How wishful and wide of the facts these poor bleating libs are!”
And yet the point you just made would seem to indicate that you understand that there is a problem with Chinese emissions. What I see here is poor bleating righties mostly — poor bleating libs are a tiny minority.

Simon Denis
Simon Denis
1 year ago

Quite so. And one can see the reasons for this. To start with, their habits and attitudes are still the result of relative poverty – hence large families. Second, their religion enjoins fruitfulness. Third, as de facto colonists in new territory, the government of which denigrates its own people as hostile and actively encourages separatism, their first instinct is to build up numbers.
And congratulations on spiking that absurd point about “declining populations” in Africa. Someone might have turned off the tap but the tub is still overflowing. Your antagonist seems to have trouble in realising this – just as the fleshy face fellow arguing with Farage and Hartley Brewer about “climate change” has trouble understanding that just because the Chinese have stopped building mega-coal-fired power stations, it doesn’t mean they won’t keep filling the skies with smoke.
How wishful and wide of the facts these poor bleating libs are!

Last edited 1 year ago by Simon Denis
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

“Out of date. Population growth in the vast majority of countries is rapidly declining”
Not in Africa. It seems we’re expecting another billion in the next few decades. All headed for whitey’s countries. The Diversity promises to be wonderful.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

“Prepare to repel boarders”!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

It’s all good, surely Ray.
“Whitey” spread across the globe before- Africa, America, Australia- so what comes around, goes around.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

“Prepare to repel boarders”!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

It’s all good, surely Ray.
“Whitey” spread across the globe before- Africa, America, Australia- so what comes around, goes around.

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Africans deciding to become irregular migrants today base their decisions on the demographic changes in the recent past, not on your predicted future. Even the problems in Syria, where the population had quadrupled since the 1970’s, were a result of demographic pressures (correlated with a religious dimension), hence Assad being very happy to see a diaspora.
You refer to countries being “under populated”, but there is no such thing. A country has some natural resources that can be exploited by its population, but generally speaking, the more people there are, the more difficult it is to extract the marginal value from a resource.
Liberal demographers extrapolate trends when it suits them, but migration has interesting effects. For example, when a couple moves from Bangladesh to the UK, they have a number of children that is twice the average number in Bangladesh.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Kwasi-Modo
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

“Out of date. Population growth in the vast majority of countries is rapidly declining”
Not in Africa. It seems we’re expecting another billion in the next few decades. All headed for whitey’s countries. The Diversity promises to be wonderful.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

Out of date. Population growth in the vast majority of countries is rapidly declining and this trend is expected to continue. Better healthcare, more children surviving, more girls in schools all correlate strongly with this. Africa was also traditionally an under populated continent compared with Europe and Asia.

Migration is undoubtedly a real issue – but that’s just because people know that Europe and North America are much richer places, and if course that it is rather likely that your voyage will prove successful!

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago

Great article, thanks! You wrote “poverty is the leading cause of death in developing countries” and “eliminating world poverty requires more growth”. I would not disagree, but I would also mention that the rate of population increase in “developing” countries is a major cause of poverty. African irregular migrants are escaping from countries where population has doubled since the 1990’s. The excess population is heading for Europe.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

I don’t always agree with Thomas Fazi, but here is is absolutely spot on, without becoming someone completely in denial about the obvious fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and mankind is pushing more of it into the atmosphere. Climate change is a problem, but far from the worst we have to face up to. (And, there will always BE such problems – we are never going to live in a technical or any other type of utopia).

“Renewable” energy has major environmental problems of its own, notably the need to mine vastly greater volumes of metal than we now do (but mainly of course, rock!). Meanwhile American and European environmentalists try to get mining banned or heavily circumscribed! You couldn’t make it up. These people are like children “we don’t like it” and mostly have no serious solutions to offer

What is truly idiotic is that the measures to reduce CO2 emissions in the West will have scarcely any bearing on temperatures or any other climate metric, while being extremely costly.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Nonsense – what renewable energy involves mining? Perhaps you’re confusing batteries with renewable energy?

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I think he means the rare earths used to create the magnets for wind turbines.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Solar panels require rare earth materials.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

…and children to mine them.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

…and children to mine them.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Nonsense”….he says!
Apparently without a clue about how solar panels are made. Perhaps you are confusing fact with opinion?

Paige M
Paige M
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Good lord! Please tell me you blurted that out before actually thinking? I spit out my coffee due to this comment!

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I think he means the rare earths used to create the magnets for wind turbines.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Solar panels require rare earth materials.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Nonsense”….he says!
Apparently without a clue about how solar panels are made. Perhaps you are confusing fact with opinion?

Paige M
Paige M
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Good lord! Please tell me you blurted that out before actually thinking? I spit out my coffee due to this comment!

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Nonsense – what renewable energy involves mining? Perhaps you’re confusing batteries with renewable energy?

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago

I don’t always agree with Thomas Fazi, but here is is absolutely spot on, without becoming someone completely in denial about the obvious fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and mankind is pushing more of it into the atmosphere. Climate change is a problem, but far from the worst we have to face up to. (And, there will always BE such problems – we are never going to live in a technical or any other type of utopia).

“Renewable” energy has major environmental problems of its own, notably the need to mine vastly greater volumes of metal than we now do (but mainly of course, rock!). Meanwhile American and European environmentalists try to get mining banned or heavily circumscribed! You couldn’t make it up. These people are like children “we don’t like it” and mostly have no serious solutions to offer

What is truly idiotic is that the measures to reduce CO2 emissions in the West will have scarcely any bearing on temperatures or any other climate metric, while being extremely costly.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Well, it’s just common sense, really.

Climate hysteria, though, is not just about the climate. When an intelligent citizen with time and the Internet can be more knowledgeable than ‘the people who know best’ then the form of oligarchy that we know as ‘representative democracy’ ceases to be workable, and the only way that a supposedly ‘cognitive’ elite can maintain its power and privilege is through increasingly authoritarian modes of rule. ‘Climate change’ provides the perfect pretext.

Muad Dib
Muad Dib
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

It seems there is a consensus among commentators here that this is all just a hoax to distract people. I hope you are right but don’t really see it like that. I hope to provide a little different perspective as should be the Unherd way.
Governments you accuse are actually doing very little on the topic, mostly talk. Long terms goals generally don’t fit with short election cycles. World is actually producing more and more emissions, not less, so you are on the winning side.
The idea that anyone with internet access can be more knowledgeable on the topic then people working on it their whole life is a naïve delusion.
This whole thing with climate warming has been predicted in early 20th century, it became clear by 70s. And was sidelined famously by Reagan, where we probably missed our real chance for change. There are clear mechanisms, measurements, physics and chemistry behind it. There is no serious academic dispute there.
Idea of protecting the poor is cynical, as this has mostly been done by developed nations, cumulatively since the industrial revolution, and poor will likely be most affected.
Weather the impact is more annoying or cataclysmic remains to be seen. I think we are playing with feedback loops which can get things out of control – less ice means less reflection and more heat absorption by water and land, which leads to less ice etc. Similar with permafrost and methane trapped there. Warmer air can hold more moisture again increasing temperatures etc.
On top of all that we have all the pollution and biodiversity loss, this happening in parallel can lead to a lot of very unpleasant scenarios.
Again, I hope all the smart and independent thinkers here are correct, I really do, no big deal, and we keep going. Looks like we’ll find out.

Last edited 1 year ago by Muad Dib
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Did you have anything to say about the facts of CO2 and the atmosphere, or is physics a conspiracy?

Muad Dib
Muad Dib
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

It seems there is a consensus among commentators here that this is all just a hoax to distract people. I hope you are right but don’t really see it like that. I hope to provide a little different perspective as should be the Unherd way.
Governments you accuse are actually doing very little on the topic, mostly talk. Long terms goals generally don’t fit with short election cycles. World is actually producing more and more emissions, not less, so you are on the winning side.
The idea that anyone with internet access can be more knowledgeable on the topic then people working on it their whole life is a naïve delusion.
This whole thing with climate warming has been predicted in early 20th century, it became clear by 70s. And was sidelined famously by Reagan, where we probably missed our real chance for change. There are clear mechanisms, measurements, physics and chemistry behind it. There is no serious academic dispute there.
Idea of protecting the poor is cynical, as this has mostly been done by developed nations, cumulatively since the industrial revolution, and poor will likely be most affected.
Weather the impact is more annoying or cataclysmic remains to be seen. I think we are playing with feedback loops which can get things out of control – less ice means less reflection and more heat absorption by water and land, which leads to less ice etc. Similar with permafrost and methane trapped there. Warmer air can hold more moisture again increasing temperatures etc.
On top of all that we have all the pollution and biodiversity loss, this happening in parallel can lead to a lot of very unpleasant scenarios.
Again, I hope all the smart and independent thinkers here are correct, I really do, no big deal, and we keep going. Looks like we’ll find out.

Last edited 1 year ago by Muad Dib
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Did you have anything to say about the facts of CO2 and the atmosphere, or is physics a conspiracy?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Well, it’s just common sense, really.

Climate hysteria, though, is not just about the climate. When an intelligent citizen with time and the Internet can be more knowledgeable than ‘the people who know best’ then the form of oligarchy that we know as ‘representative democracy’ ceases to be workable, and the only way that a supposedly ‘cognitive’ elite can maintain its power and privilege is through increasingly authoritarian modes of rule. ‘Climate change’ provides the perfect pretext.

John Dellingby
John Dellingby
1 year ago

I think Konstantin Kisin’s Oxford Union speech summed it up best. The people of Asia, Africa and Latin America are going to be shaping global decision making in the future and because most of them poor, they don’t give a damn about climate change. We need better and smarter technology for cleaner energy and to adapt as the author says, not to impoverish ourselves.

On a lighter note, has anyone noticed that these maps of Europe have anywhere between 25 and 40 Celsius as a dark shade of red? Can’t imagine why that is…

John Dellingby
John Dellingby
1 year ago

I think Konstantin Kisin’s Oxford Union speech summed it up best. The people of Asia, Africa and Latin America are going to be shaping global decision making in the future and because most of them poor, they don’t give a damn about climate change. We need better and smarter technology for cleaner energy and to adapt as the author says, not to impoverish ourselves.

On a lighter note, has anyone noticed that these maps of Europe have anywhere between 25 and 40 Celsius as a dark shade of red? Can’t imagine why that is…

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

In this way, climate hysteria is completely distorting our perception of the world.

Quite so. 50 years ago we were all harangued about the coming ice age. That hysteria was soon debunked – but the hysteria about a heat age is proving more difficult to discuss reasonably.
Every bit of news about ‘the weather’ is only reported if it (somehow) supports ‘the climate change’. This is a one way ratchet which ought to be depreciated because it masks the objective truth with a fashionable social truth. And there are people and organisations who benefit from proclaiming a fashionable social truth.

Rick Frazier
Rick Frazier
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

“Every bit of news about ‘the weather’ is only reported if it (somehow) supports ‘the climate change’.”
Yes, the U.S. mainstream media has been quick to highlight droughts in CA as evidence of disastrous climate change. The near record level of Sierra Nevada snowfall this year has barely been mentioned, nor the diminished drought conditions. This weather advantageous reporting has been occuring for years.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Yes yes yes.
Let’s have some news stories about low temperatures. Facts are Marxist. Let’s have some anti-Marxist stories about freak average temperatures, excessively average rainfall.
I’m sick of so-called “statistics” telling me what is happening regardless of my political views- I want to be told only want I agree with. THAT is facts.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

“I want to be told only want I agree with”.

Come on Thorax!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

“I want to be told only want I agree with”.

Come on Thorax!

Rick Frazier
Rick Frazier
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

“Every bit of news about ‘the weather’ is only reported if it (somehow) supports ‘the climate change’.”
Yes, the U.S. mainstream media has been quick to highlight droughts in CA as evidence of disastrous climate change. The near record level of Sierra Nevada snowfall this year has barely been mentioned, nor the diminished drought conditions. This weather advantageous reporting has been occuring for years.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  AC Harper

Yes yes yes.
Let’s have some news stories about low temperatures. Facts are Marxist. Let’s have some anti-Marxist stories about freak average temperatures, excessively average rainfall.
I’m sick of so-called “statistics” telling me what is happening regardless of my political views- I want to be told only want I agree with. THAT is facts.

AC Harper
AC Harper
1 year ago

In this way, climate hysteria is completely distorting our perception of the world.

Quite so. 50 years ago we were all harangued about the coming ice age. That hysteria was soon debunked – but the hysteria about a heat age is proving more difficult to discuss reasonably.
Every bit of news about ‘the weather’ is only reported if it (somehow) supports ‘the climate change’. This is a one way ratchet which ought to be depreciated because it masks the objective truth with a fashionable social truth. And there are people and organisations who benefit from proclaiming a fashionable social truth.

Orlando Skeete
Orlando Skeete
1 year ago

I am sorry, I had to stop reading at “Yes, climate change and global warming are real — and yes, they are largely a result of human activity”

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

I felt the same as the last bit “largely as a result of human activity” is significantly contested.
.
That undermined what was otherwise a sensible article.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

Yeah, you’re sorry lol.
Because you’re a scientist, I assume? I don’t really know what’s going on about climate, truth be told. How do you get to be so convinced? 
You see, I’m always wary of “people with answers”, convinced people, people who preach at me about how they and they alone have the answers. 
So you’re 100% right about climate and there is no debate and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? Is that what you’re saying?
What other conclusion can be drawn from someone who admits they “stop reading” anything of which they disapprove lol
God save us from secular preacher men, tiny brains and big mouths, atop their little secular soapboxes.  
Is there one damned Unherd commenter who doesn’t follow the Unherd herd?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Why would you expect people to read further into your comment after the expression “lol” ?
.
I did persevere, but you added nothing that contributed to this discussion.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“What other conclusion can be drawn from someone who admits they “stop reading” anything of which they disapprove lol”
Well, at least the gentleman is the first to proclaim that his mind is now closed. He is no longer going to permit himself to be confused by facts or contrary views. And he’s honest about that.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Frank, if you really don’t understand that our planet has been in existence for approximately 4.5 billion years and that all during that enormous amount of time the climate has changed dramatically, with several cycles from ice ages to super heated and back again, then you should perhaps chose another topic to blather on about. For the love of God, please do some research, man.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

We all know that, dear. Seriously, everyone actually bares that in mind- it’s really quite well-know amongst “so-called scientists”. Human industrial civilisation didn’t, and arguably couldn’t have, existed in the Carboniferous Period. Do keep up.
Well done for looking up the age of the planet, though- even if that means blindly accepting the word of a bunch of Marxist “so-called scientists” who know nothing. I heard the Earth is only 6000 years old.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Holland
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

We all know that, dear. Seriously, everyone actually bares that in mind- it’s really quite well-know amongst “so-called scientists”. Human industrial civilisation didn’t, and arguably couldn’t have, existed in the Carboniferous Period. Do keep up.
Well done for looking up the age of the planet, though- even if that means blindly accepting the word of a bunch of Marxist “so-called scientists” who know nothing. I heard the Earth is only 6000 years old.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Holland
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Is there one damned Unherd commenter who doesn’t follow the Unherd herd?”
In a word, no. The Unherd commentariat is an echo-chamber of group-think kneejerk self-applause, so comically opposed to the supposed ‘ethos’ of the blogsite’s ‘freethinking’ agenda that it seems almost deliberately parodic.
Just to illustrate this, this comment, like yours, will be ‘downvoted’ multiple times, and various blowhards will line up to ‘savage’ me for not conforming to the standard, brainlessly accepted Unherd politically-correct position. Funny, in a way.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Then why do you bother to contribute Thorax?

Allowing for the fact you are a rather obvious male hysteric, why not return to your comfort zone, Twitter? You will be much happier there.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Then why do you bother to contribute Thorax?

Allowing for the fact you are a rather obvious male hysteric, why not return to your comfort zone, Twitter? You will be much happier there.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Why would you expect people to read further into your comment after the expression “lol” ?
.
I did persevere, but you added nothing that contributed to this discussion.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“What other conclusion can be drawn from someone who admits they “stop reading” anything of which they disapprove lol”
Well, at least the gentleman is the first to proclaim that his mind is now closed. He is no longer going to permit himself to be confused by facts or contrary views. And he’s honest about that.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Frank, if you really don’t understand that our planet has been in existence for approximately 4.5 billion years and that all during that enormous amount of time the climate has changed dramatically, with several cycles from ice ages to super heated and back again, then you should perhaps chose another topic to blather on about. For the love of God, please do some research, man.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

“Is there one damned Unherd commenter who doesn’t follow the Unherd herd?”
In a word, no. The Unherd commentariat is an echo-chamber of group-think kneejerk self-applause, so comically opposed to the supposed ‘ethos’ of the blogsite’s ‘freethinking’ agenda that it seems almost deliberately parodic.
Just to illustrate this, this comment, like yours, will be ‘downvoted’ multiple times, and various blowhards will line up to ‘savage’ me for not conforming to the standard, brainlessly accepted Unherd politically-correct position. Funny, in a way.

R H van der Gaag
R H van der Gaag
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

You had to stop reading. Truth hurts, doesn’t it?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

This comment also contributes nothing …

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

“This comment also contributes nothing …”
I disagree. Almost nobody here is a scientist — we all are expressing — to be honest — our political loyalties. The one bit of work we might accomplish is to understand ourselves — that almost nobody here gives a damn about objective science and as Orlando so bravely proclaims, contrary views will not be read.
Even now the right proclaims itself to be on the side of sanity but IMHO what we see above demonstrates that the right is now as insane as the left. Both camps are full of walking-dead zombies.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Thankyou.
You are, of course, absolutely correct. The level of blind scientific cluelessness exhibited here, in the cause of ideological ‘correctness’, is grotesque.
It’s amusing to read as a study of the myopic tunnel-vision of the internet, but it really is depressing if you take it remotely seriously.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Stop being so pompous Thorax, your ‘scientific’ input to this discussion has been net zero.

All you seem to contribute is bile and sarcasm, surely you can do better than that?

ps. Stop flagging everything you disapprove of! And have your ‘hissy’ fit elsewhere.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Don’t get your knickers in a twist, Charlie.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Don’t get your knickers in a twist, Charlie.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Stop being so pompous Thorax, your ‘scientific’ input to this discussion has been net zero.

All you seem to contribute is bile and sarcasm, surely you can do better than that?

ps. Stop flagging everything you disapprove of! And have your ‘hissy’ fit elsewhere.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Thankyou.
You are, of course, absolutely correct. The level of blind scientific cluelessness exhibited here, in the cause of ideological ‘correctness’, is grotesque.
It’s amusing to read as a study of the myopic tunnel-vision of the internet, but it really is depressing if you take it remotely seriously.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

“This comment also contributes nothing …”
I disagree. Almost nobody here is a scientist — we all are expressing — to be honest — our political loyalties. The one bit of work we might accomplish is to understand ourselves — that almost nobody here gives a damn about objective science and as Orlando so bravely proclaims, contrary views will not be read.
Even now the right proclaims itself to be on the side of sanity but IMHO what we see above demonstrates that the right is now as insane as the left. Both camps are full of walking-dead zombies.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

This comment also contributes nothing …

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

Here here.
I had to stop reading at anything that in any way confused me or contradicted my clueless, scientifically illiterate assumptions. Enough of this so-called ‘information’. I want any tripe that confirms my ignorance.
Thankyou.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

I felt the same as the last bit “largely as a result of human activity” is significantly contested.
.
That undermined what was otherwise a sensible article.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Barton
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

Yeah, you’re sorry lol.
Because you’re a scientist, I assume? I don’t really know what’s going on about climate, truth be told. How do you get to be so convinced? 
You see, I’m always wary of “people with answers”, convinced people, people who preach at me about how they and they alone have the answers. 
So you’re 100% right about climate and there is no debate and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? Is that what you’re saying?
What other conclusion can be drawn from someone who admits they “stop reading” anything of which they disapprove lol
God save us from secular preacher men, tiny brains and big mouths, atop their little secular soapboxes.  
Is there one damned Unherd commenter who doesn’t follow the Unherd herd?

R H van der Gaag
R H van der Gaag
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

You had to stop reading. Truth hurts, doesn’t it?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Orlando Skeete

Here here.
I had to stop reading at anything that in any way confused me or contradicted my clueless, scientifically illiterate assumptions. Enough of this so-called ‘information’. I want any tripe that confirms my ignorance.
Thankyou.

Orlando Skeete
Orlando Skeete
1 year ago

I am sorry, I had to stop reading at “Yes, climate change and global warming are real — and yes, they are largely a result of human activity”

Darren Turner
Darren Turner
1 year ago

I don’t agree that climate change is largely caused by human activity. 1) CO2 is much lower than for more than 99% of the time life has existed on earth including some extremely cold glacial periods. 2) My understanding is that 400ppm CO2 and even 800ppm CO2 will cause very little extra greenhouse effect due to it still being only a trace gas in the atmosphere (currently 4% of the gas Argon in the atmosphere) and also that experiments show the greenhouse effect due to CO2 is already largely saturated at current levels.3) CO2 historically has lagged temperature change not the other way around due to the oceans emitting CO2 as they heat up and absorbing CO2 as they cool down. 4) We are still coming out of The Maunder Minimum “little Ice Age” of circa 1500-1750. It is still cooler now than it was around 1200 AD and again during Roman times, not to mention the Holocene Maximum around 10,000 years ago. This is a totalitarian government attempt for rule by technocrats being pushed to scare the population into welcoming dictatorship. “Please clever people save us.”

Michael Daniele
Michael Daniele
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

Great points, to be totally ignored by those in their bubble.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

They aren’t “great points”, they are they usual scientifically-illiterate drivel, cut and pasted unquestioningly from the standard ideological internet blogs from the last twenty years. Every “point`’ has been relentlessly regurgitated and debunked for half of my life.
This is a bubble-site, where anyone stating these half-baked cliches is rewarded with an inevitable string of scientifically clueless applauding echoes, as if some random twerp on the internet stating their “sciency” views with the unearned confidence of the ranting political internet blagger is somehow superior to a lifetime’s research on the actual subject concerned. It isn’t- its scientifically-arbitrary ideological tripe.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Holland
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

They aren’t “great points”, they are they usual scientifically-illiterate drivel, cut and pasted unquestioningly from the standard ideological internet blogs from the last twenty years. Every “point`’ has been relentlessly regurgitated and debunked for half of my life.
This is a bubble-site, where anyone stating these half-baked cliches is rewarded with an inevitable string of scientifically clueless applauding echoes, as if some random twerp on the internet stating their “sciency” views with the unearned confidence of the ranting political internet blagger is somehow superior to a lifetime’s research on the actual subject concerned. It isn’t- its scientifically-arbitrary ideological tripe.

Last edited 1 year ago by John Holland
Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

Completely wrong on each point. 1. Irrelevant to the present issue. 2. Not true and doesn’t understand atmospheric physics and the role of lapse rates. 3. Actually, this shows that CO2 is crucial for driving the carbon cycle! 4. Not true, and shows misunderstanding of the LIA.

You said: “I don’t agree that climate change is largely caused by human activity”. Science doesn’t depend on your agreement!

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

Nor yours …

Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Ian. The difference is that I have nearly 200 years of atmospheric physics on my side. You?

Aidan Trimble
Aidan Trimble
1 year ago

A whole 200 ?

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Aidan Trimble

That’s when the industrial revolution started and the excessive creation of CO2, so it’s a valid point.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Good to have clarity when the IR started. Economuc historians put i5 at 1775 or so. Michael Mann at 1910. . Interestingly, the 1930s a time of depression and deindistrialisati8n, was a warm decade, whereas full industrial deployment during the Second World War, in Europe and the US, accompanied a bitterly cold decade.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Good to have clarity when the IR started. Economuc historians put i5 at 1775 or so. Michael Mann at 1910. . Interestingly, the 1930s a time of depression and deindistrialisati8n, was a warm decade, whereas full industrial deployment during the Second World War, in Europe and the US, accompanied a bitterly cold decade.

Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Aidan Trimble

I’m talking about when the physics of the atmosphere first began to be understood. By scientists such as Fourier, Tyndall, Foote.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

Never heard of them- but bloody Marxists, I’m sure.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

Never heard of them- but bloody Marxists, I’m sure.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Aidan Trimble

That’s when the industrial revolution started and the excessive creation of CO2, so it’s a valid point.

Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Aidan Trimble

I’m talking about when the physics of the atmosphere first began to be understood. By scientists such as Fourier, Tyndall, Foote.

Aidan Trimble
Aidan Trimble
1 year ago

A whole 200 ?

Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Ian. The difference is that I have nearly 200 years of atmospheric physics on my side. You?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago

Nor yours …

Matthew Powell
Matthew Powell
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

1) co2 is only one of the forcing agents which affect earths climate and it is rarely the primary one. Comparing previous co2 concentrations to the historic temperature record is pointless unless you also map the other forcing agents at the same time. Currently, none of them have changed drastically, whilst co2 has, making it the prime candidate to be causing the warming.

2) the fact that co2 is a trace gas is irrelevant. A trace amount of cyanide in the human body is fatal. The amount of energy that co2 absorbs conforms with the standard model of particle physics, if it’s wrong, all of physics must be wrong too.

As for saturation, that only happens at concentrations found at ground level. As altitude increases co2 content falls. Since at these lower concentrations co2 is not at saturation point, far from in fact (and this is amplified by the absence of water vapor at higher altitudes) then until all altitudes reach saturation point, and this won’t happen anytime soon, the atmosphere will continue to warm.

3) co2 does often lag temperatures. That’s because it’s frequently not the primary forcing agent. Ice Ages are largely governed by the Milankovitch cycles, the small changes in the earths orbit, but during a warming cycle, co2 further warms the atmosphere in a feed back effect. As the temperature rises, more co2 is release from the ocean and this creates more warming. However, on its own this will not counter act the orbital changes when the enter a cooling cycle, at which point co2 levels start to fall and have a cooling feed back.

We are due another Ice Age based on the current cycles in the earths orbit, though it can’t be precisely dated like the joke in Fr Ted, where the end of the last ice age is dated in the calendar. Typical, one of the lesser forcing agents, such as a large scale volcanic eruption, proves to the tipping point causing the temperature to enter a rapid decline. (Though it should be noted that the rapid rises and falls associated with the start and end of an ice age are 1 to 1.5 degrees every thousand years. We have warmed by 1 degree in around 150 years. Lighting fast in geological terms.)

4) The Maunder Minimum is long past and was probably driven by volcanic eruptions rather than solar activity. The Roman and Medieval Warm periods are well documented but until the 90’s the vast majority of climate research and data were taken from Europe and America and whilst historically it was indeed hotter in both locations, the key is that as global proxies have been taken, there has no evidence found that this warm period was anything other than localised and was most likely caused by global changes heat distribution, driven by ocean currents, heating some areas but cooling others.

Climate proxies are calibrated against accurate modern temperature records and do not just include the infamous Mann hockey stick graph based on tree ring data. Global temperatures, reconstructed from multiple independently verified proxies find that over the last few thousand years normal variation is between 0.2-0.4 degrees, though this can mean several degrees variation in certain localised areas. Much in the same way that the Antarctic is around 4 degrees warmer today, even though global temperatures have only risen 1 degree.

Global warming is real and is driven by the unprecedented rise in co2 , which has not happened in recent our geological history, independent of other forcing agents been the cause.

Either that or thousands of scientists, politicians and business leaders have all decided to collaborate in a giant, self harming conspiracy, (energy transition will not be easy, and will reduce growth in the short to medium term) despite the fact they could have sat back and become far richer from continuing to just use fossil fuels. Which makes the least sense of all.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

COVID?
Sadly posting this at approximately 18.30 hours means there will be little if any discussion.

Incidentally what are your qualifications Mr Powell, if that is not too personal a question?

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Hooray ! Someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
Great summary, incidentally. Bravissimo.
Cut and pasted into my file labelled “countering climate change sceptics”

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Elaine were you also a ‘Remainer’ may I ask?

It does seem there is some correlation between COVID advocates and Climate Change enthusiasts. Perhaps this also extends to Remainers?

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago

Was 50:50 early on but voted for decoupling in the end for reasons of sovereignty.
I am allergic to unaccountable bureaucracies.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Likewise, thank you.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Likewise, thank you.

Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago

Was 50:50 early on but voted for decoupling in the end for reasons of sovereignty.
I am allergic to unaccountable bureaucracies.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Elaine were you also a ‘Remainer’ may I ask?

It does seem there is some correlation between COVID advocates and Climate Change enthusiasts. Perhaps this also extends to Remainers?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Thank God I can read the entirety of “science” in a confused internet comment- this saves me the difficulty of having to engage in actual scientific papers, which have lots of long words, and enables me to think that I understand something that silly “so-called” scientists are utterly incapable of grasping.
Before the invention of the internet comments page, this was unavailable to absurdly opinionated but largely uneducated people like myself- luckily, I can now read this sort of tripe and feel I know far more than anyone who’s ever actually bothered to study the subject in any depth. Great! Aren’t so-called scientists idiots!

m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Very lucid comment. I find the relative lack of discussion of the last four episodes of global warming (caused by wobbles in the earth’s orbit not CO2 emissions) surprising. Perhaps neither the true believers nor the ultra sceptics find examining the actual record helps their arguments.

One observation is that each of the four rises in temperature hit the buffers not far above current levels. If each rise in temperature was initially accelerated by positive feedback loops then some sort of negative feedback abruptly cut in. No one seems to be clear what the mechanisms were. Something to do with melting Arctic and Greenland icecaps? The suspension of the normal North Atlantic Ocean currents which are central in redistributing heat around the planet? An increase in cirrus cloud cover? A lagged increase in global biomass???

I doubt this alters the 100 year picture much given the strength of the CO2 forcing but it is possible on a 10-20 year view we will see a pause in temperature rises accompanied by some weird and powerful weather/Oceanic effects.

I am not sure this will be any better. We may need to prioritise storm shutters as much as air conditioners.

(I am also known as Alex Carnegie. I have no idea why UnHerd sometimes calls me m3pc7q3ixe).

Last edited 1 year ago by m3pc7q3ixe
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Thank you for that, Mathew.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

COVID?
Sadly posting this at approximately 18.30 hours means there will be little if any discussion.

Incidentally what are your qualifications Mr Powell, if that is not too personal a question?

Last edited 1 year ago by Charles Stanhope
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Hooray ! Someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
Great summary, incidentally. Bravissimo.
Cut and pasted into my file labelled “countering climate change sceptics”

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Thank God I can read the entirety of “science” in a confused internet comment- this saves me the difficulty of having to engage in actual scientific papers, which have lots of long words, and enables me to think that I understand something that silly “so-called” scientists are utterly incapable of grasping.
Before the invention of the internet comments page, this was unavailable to absurdly opinionated but largely uneducated people like myself- luckily, I can now read this sort of tripe and feel I know far more than anyone who’s ever actually bothered to study the subject in any depth. Great! Aren’t so-called scientists idiots!

m3pc7q3ixe
m3pc7q3ixe
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Very lucid comment. I find the relative lack of discussion of the last four episodes of global warming (caused by wobbles in the earth’s orbit not CO2 emissions) surprising. Perhaps neither the true believers nor the ultra sceptics find examining the actual record helps their arguments.

One observation is that each of the four rises in temperature hit the buffers not far above current levels. If each rise in temperature was initially accelerated by positive feedback loops then some sort of negative feedback abruptly cut in. No one seems to be clear what the mechanisms were. Something to do with melting Arctic and Greenland icecaps? The suspension of the normal North Atlantic Ocean currents which are central in redistributing heat around the planet? An increase in cirrus cloud cover? A lagged increase in global biomass???

I doubt this alters the 100 year picture much given the strength of the CO2 forcing but it is possible on a 10-20 year view we will see a pause in temperature rises accompanied by some weird and powerful weather/Oceanic effects.

I am not sure this will be any better. We may need to prioritise storm shutters as much as air conditioners.

(I am also known as Alex Carnegie. I have no idea why UnHerd sometimes calls me m3pc7q3ixe).

Last edited 1 year ago by m3pc7q3ixe
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Matthew Powell

Thank you for that, Mathew.

Michael Daniele
Michael Daniele
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

Great points, to be totally ignored by those in their bubble.

Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

Completely wrong on each point. 1. Irrelevant to the present issue. 2. Not true and doesn’t understand atmospheric physics and the role of lapse rates. 3. Actually, this shows that CO2 is crucial for driving the carbon cycle! 4. Not true, and shows misunderstanding of the LIA.

You said: “I don’t agree that climate change is largely caused by human activity”. Science doesn’t depend on your agreement!

Matthew Powell
Matthew Powell
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

1) co2 is only one of the forcing agents which affect earths climate and it is rarely the primary one. Comparing previous co2 concentrations to the historic temperature record is pointless unless you also map the other forcing agents at the same time. Currently, none of them have changed drastically, whilst co2 has, making it the prime candidate to be causing the warming.

2) the fact that co2 is a trace gas is irrelevant. A trace amount of cyanide in the human body is fatal. The amount of energy that co2 absorbs conforms with the standard model of particle physics, if it’s wrong, all of physics must be wrong too.

As for saturation, that only happens at concentrations found at ground level. As altitude increases co2 content falls. Since at these lower concentrations co2 is not at saturation point, far from in fact (and this is amplified by the absence of water vapor at higher altitudes) then until all altitudes reach saturation point, and this won’t happen anytime soon, the atmosphere will continue to warm.

3) co2 does often lag temperatures. That’s because it’s frequently not the primary forcing agent. Ice Ages are largely governed by the Milankovitch cycles, the small changes in the earths orbit, but during a warming cycle, co2 further warms the atmosphere in a feed back effect. As the temperature rises, more co2 is release from the ocean and this creates more warming. However, on its own this will not counter act the orbital changes when the enter a cooling cycle, at which point co2 levels start to fall and have a cooling feed back.

We are due another Ice Age based on the current cycles in the earths orbit, though it can’t be precisely dated like the joke in Fr Ted, where the end of the last ice age is dated in the calendar. Typical, one of the lesser forcing agents, such as a large scale volcanic eruption, proves to the tipping point causing the temperature to enter a rapid decline. (Though it should be noted that the rapid rises and falls associated with the start and end of an ice age are 1 to 1.5 degrees every thousand years. We have warmed by 1 degree in around 150 years. Lighting fast in geological terms.)

4) The Maunder Minimum is long past and was probably driven by volcanic eruptions rather than solar activity. The Roman and Medieval Warm periods are well documented but until the 90’s the vast majority of climate research and data were taken from Europe and America and whilst historically it was indeed hotter in both locations, the key is that as global proxies have been taken, there has no evidence found that this warm period was anything other than localised and was most likely caused by global changes heat distribution, driven by ocean currents, heating some areas but cooling others.

Climate proxies are calibrated against accurate modern temperature records and do not just include the infamous Mann hockey stick graph based on tree ring data. Global temperatures, reconstructed from multiple independently verified proxies find that over the last few thousand years normal variation is between 0.2-0.4 degrees, though this can mean several degrees variation in certain localised areas. Much in the same way that the Antarctic is around 4 degrees warmer today, even though global temperatures have only risen 1 degree.

Global warming is real and is driven by the unprecedented rise in co2 , which has not happened in recent our geological history, independent of other forcing agents been the cause.

Either that or thousands of scientists, politicians and business leaders have all decided to collaborate in a giant, self harming conspiracy, (energy transition will not be easy, and will reduce growth in the short to medium term) despite the fact they could have sat back and become far richer from continuing to just use fossil fuels. Which makes the least sense of all.

Darren Turner
Darren Turner
1 year ago

I don’t agree that climate change is largely caused by human activity. 1) CO2 is much lower than for more than 99% of the time life has existed on earth including some extremely cold glacial periods. 2) My understanding is that 400ppm CO2 and even 800ppm CO2 will cause very little extra greenhouse effect due to it still being only a trace gas in the atmosphere (currently 4% of the gas Argon in the atmosphere) and also that experiments show the greenhouse effect due to CO2 is already largely saturated at current levels.3) CO2 historically has lagged temperature change not the other way around due to the oceans emitting CO2 as they heat up and absorbing CO2 as they cool down. 4) We are still coming out of The Maunder Minimum “little Ice Age” of circa 1500-1750. It is still cooler now than it was around 1200 AD and again during Roman times, not to mention the Holocene Maximum around 10,000 years ago. This is a totalitarian government attempt for rule by technocrats being pushed to scare the population into welcoming dictatorship. “Please clever people save us.”

sharaz.gill
sharaz.gill
1 year ago

This article appears to be little more than a precis of Bjorn Lomborg’s excellent book, “False Alarm.” The book is definitely worth reading as it is completely evidence-based (Lomborg is an eminent climate economist).

However, an important omission from this article is that the enormous subsidies governments are giving renewable companies distract from the fact that most renewables are not only unreliable (wind farms only work when the wind is blowing and the energy the generate cannot be stored effectively for later use) but they also increase the price of energy disproportionately for the poor. There isn’t much point giving poor Italians grants to buy air-conditioners if they can’t afford the electricity to run them. In this sense, embracing renewables too enthusiastically is at odds with necessary adaptation measures.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  sharaz.gill

A climate economist? Intriguing, he actually studied to become a politician. His ‘excellent’ book was funded by well known climate sceptics. Perhaps you should broaden your reading material?

sharaz.gill
sharaz.gill
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

The thing is, in an effort to try to understand what is actually happening, I have read other authors including Tim Jackson and. Michael Mann. Their arguments are superficially compelling, but the books are clearly written with an agenda too. Lomborg’s take just makes more sense to me, even though he doubtless has an agenda.

As for him being an “economist” I’m not sure that it matters what you studied. Surely it’s what you do now that counts.

Broadening one’s reading: have you read Lomborg’s book or do you only read books that support what you already think? I’d be interested to hear what evidence you have to support your assertion that “False Alarm” was funded by climate sceptics. It is certainly true that Lomborg has been criticized in the past (doubtless with good reason at times) but I have never heard this.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  sharaz.gill

Everyone has a streak of confirmation bias, if one is aware of it however you can at least ask yourself if certain material is going to feed it. As I pointed out earlier, a book title of ‘False Alarm’ merely appeals to people’s biases. As for Lomborg’s content, it’s purely tabloid, with appealing ‘facts’ supported by narrow datasets. Here’s a revealing profile of him.
https://www.desmog.com/bjorn-lomborg/

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  sharaz.gill

Everyone has a streak of confirmation bias, if one is aware of it however you can at least ask yourself if certain material is going to feed it. As I pointed out earlier, a book title of ‘False Alarm’ merely appeals to people’s biases. As for Lomborg’s content, it’s purely tabloid, with appealing ‘facts’ supported by narrow datasets. Here’s a revealing profile of him.
https://www.desmog.com/bjorn-lomborg/

sharaz.gill
sharaz.gill
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

The thing is, in an effort to try to understand what is actually happening, I have read other authors including Tim Jackson and. Michael Mann. Their arguments are superficially compelling, but the books are clearly written with an agenda too. Lomborg’s take just makes more sense to me, even though he doubtless has an agenda.

As for him being an “economist” I’m not sure that it matters what you studied. Surely it’s what you do now that counts.

Broadening one’s reading: have you read Lomborg’s book or do you only read books that support what you already think? I’d be interested to hear what evidence you have to support your assertion that “False Alarm” was funded by climate sceptics. It is certainly true that Lomborg has been criticized in the past (doubtless with good reason at times) but I have never heard this.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  sharaz.gill

A climate economist? Intriguing, he actually studied to become a politician. His ‘excellent’ book was funded by well known climate sceptics. Perhaps you should broaden your reading material?

sharaz.gill
sharaz.gill
1 year ago

This article appears to be little more than a precis of Bjorn Lomborg’s excellent book, “False Alarm.” The book is definitely worth reading as it is completely evidence-based (Lomborg is an eminent climate economist).

However, an important omission from this article is that the enormous subsidies governments are giving renewable companies distract from the fact that most renewables are not only unreliable (wind farms only work when the wind is blowing and the energy the generate cannot be stored effectively for later use) but they also increase the price of energy disproportionately for the poor. There isn’t much point giving poor Italians grants to buy air-conditioners if they can’t afford the electricity to run them. In this sense, embracing renewables too enthusiastically is at odds with necessary adaptation measures.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

You obviously missed the news that 80% of those Pacific islands are growing in size. This is absolutely not in dispute. I remember the UN holding a press conference under water in the Maldives about 15 years ago. 97% of the islands that make up the chain have grown larger.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

We didn’t get our 50 million climate refugees by 2015 either. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2005/oct/12/naturaldisasters.climatechange1

And the Himalayan glaciers are still there. And the Arctic sea ice. Darn!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Don’t forget the ice free arctic by 2012. Or the collapse of agriculture. Or the collapse of coral reefs. Or New York City being under water.

A 35-year history of failed predictions and no one has noticed but us deniers.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

And the fact that major developers are building a huge number of high end resorts in the Maldives. Why so if they will disappear soon?
https://www.dreamingofmaldives.com/maldives-blog/maldives-new-and-upcoming-resorts-in-2021/

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Maybe because people buying expensive holiday homes are as scientifically clueless as you are, Warren.
I’ve always thought that the preserved bodies of the residents of Pompeii ignoring the coming volcanic avalanche was perfect proof that the volcano never erupted. Well done.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Maybe because people buying expensive holiday homes are as scientifically clueless as you are, Warren.
I’ve always thought that the preserved bodies of the residents of Pompeii ignoring the coming volcanic avalanche was perfect proof that the volcano never erupted. Well done.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

And the fact that major developers are building a huge number of high end resorts in the Maldives. Why so if they will disappear soon?
https://www.dreamingofmaldives.com/maldives-blog/maldives-new-and-upcoming-resorts-in-2021/

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

And the sign in Montana saying that their glaciers would be gone by 2020 had to be taken down.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

Don’t forget the ice free arctic by 2012. Or the collapse of agriculture. Or the collapse of coral reefs. Or New York City being under water.

A 35-year history of failed predictions and no one has noticed but us deniers.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Johnson

And the sign in Montana saying that their glaciers would be gone by 2020 had to be taken down.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

“It estimated that the Covid-19 pandemic and subsequent surge in inflation and borrowing costs had pushed an extra 165 million people into poverty, bringing the total global figure to 1.65 billion, over 20% of the world’s population.”

This says it all IMO. This number is absolutely staggering – only eight countries in the world have more than 165 million people. It’s the equivalent of two Britain’s. Our priorities and policy making are such an incomprehensible mess right now, it’s hard not to get angry. Even worse, I never heard about this at all. Yet I was beat across the head by countless news reports of the data some yahoos tortured to proclaim whatever day the hottest ever.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Cheer up!
On your own figures about 80% of us are NOT wallowing in abject poverty, but rather the reverse, some us markedly so!

Also you may recall, it is said that the ‘overwhelming majority’ of the cretinous great British public gleefully agreed with the idiotic Government response to the COVID nonsense.
Thus is it really any surprise that they should NOW believe in this climate hysteria?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

I think most people probably don’t believe in it – or care much about it. Unfortunately, prompted by a completely corrupt media, they tend to blame energy companies rather than Ed Miliband et al for their rapidly falling standard of living.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

Sad but true.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Why was this innocuous comment chucked in the ‘Sin Bin’ for three hours and more?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

I’d like to think it was because it was your usual grimly fatuous, smug drivel, Charlie- however, given the standards of this particular internet anti-thought Trumpy ‘MyTruth’ site, I doubt it.
Probably just a ‘glitch’.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

I’d like to think it was because it was your usual grimly fatuous, smug drivel, Charlie- however, given the standards of this particular internet anti-thought Trumpy ‘MyTruth’ site, I doubt it.
Probably just a ‘glitch’.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

I think most people probably don’t believe in it – or care much about it. Unfortunately, prompted by a completely corrupt media, they tend to blame energy companies rather than Ed Miliband et al for their rapidly falling standard of living.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

Sad but true.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Why was this innocuous comment chucked in the ‘Sin Bin’ for three hours and more?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Cheer up!
On your own figures about 80% of us are NOT wallowing in abject poverty, but rather the reverse, some us markedly so!

Also you may recall, it is said that the ‘overwhelming majority’ of the cretinous great British public gleefully agreed with the idiotic Government response to the COVID nonsense.
Thus is it really any surprise that they should NOW believe in this climate hysteria?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

No – the Maldives sank beneath the waves in the 1990s. Someone from NASA said so in 1989.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Who needs the maldives when we have Clacton and Skeggy?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Who needs the maldives when we have Clacton and Skeggy?

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Maldives growing larger you say? Can you substantiate that? Should be a hard fact.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

“maldives sea level rise”
Just Googled the above, and I found zero articles saying anything *other* than that the country is in dire peril of being swallowed up completely. Seems they’re building artificial islands tho, perhaps that’s what you’re talking about?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Pacific islands were mapped extensively and accurately during WWII using aerial photography. Subsequent mapping has shown extensive and continuous growth since then. Multiple studies have confirmed this.

Try an internet search; Have The Maldives Grown In Size or any variation of that. I’m not on Google so I can’t say what you will get.

Pacific islands are growing. This is simply not being disputed by any reputable source. That you can’t find this information on Google immediately is frightening.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It is indeed “frightening” that you can’t find your preferred ‘truth’ on the internet.
We should be able to type in our preferred “facts” and have them immediately confirmed by the internet. My preferred “fact” today is that a unicorn has just on the Wimbledon mens final- it is FRIGHTENING that it isn’t on Google. What next?????

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It is indeed “frightening” that you can’t find your preferred ‘truth’ on the internet.
We should be able to type in our preferred “facts” and have them immediately confirmed by the internet. My preferred “fact” today is that a unicorn has just on the Wimbledon mens final- it is FRIGHTENING that it isn’t on Google. What next?????

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Another interesting fact we never hear about. The Great Barrier Reef today has the most coral growth since records started in the mid 1960s. This was measured by Australian Institute of Marine Science. In a recent public opinion poll, only 4% of Australians know this.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

This is interesting. Can you give a link to this?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

This is interesting. Can you give a link to this?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Pacific islands were mapped extensively and accurately during WWII using aerial photography. Subsequent mapping has shown extensive and continuous growth since then. Multiple studies have confirmed this.

Try an internet search; Have The Maldives Grown In Size or any variation of that. I’m not on Google so I can’t say what you will get.

Pacific islands are growing. This is simply not being disputed by any reputable source. That you can’t find this information on Google immediately is frightening.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

Another interesting fact we never hear about. The Great Barrier Reef today has the most coral growth since records started in the mid 1960s. This was measured by Australian Institute of Marine Science. In a recent public opinion poll, only 4% of Australians know this.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

“maldives sea level rise”
Just Googled the above, and I found zero articles saying anything *other* than that the country is in dire peril of being swallowed up completely. Seems they’re building artificial islands tho, perhaps that’s what you’re talking about?

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Pedant alert, sorry. The Maldives is an island chain in the Indian Ocean but, apart from its Islamic culture, has a definite Pacific Island Nation (PIN)-feel to it, blue sea, blue sky, etc.

Peter Johnson
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

We didn’t get our 50 million climate refugees by 2015 either. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2005/oct/12/naturaldisasters.climatechange1

And the Himalayan glaciers are still there. And the Arctic sea ice. Darn!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

“It estimated that the Covid-19 pandemic and subsequent surge in inflation and borrowing costs had pushed an extra 165 million people into poverty, bringing the total global figure to 1.65 billion, over 20% of the world’s population.”

This says it all IMO. This number is absolutely staggering – only eight countries in the world have more than 165 million people. It’s the equivalent of two Britain’s. Our priorities and policy making are such an incomprehensible mess right now, it’s hard not to get angry. Even worse, I never heard about this at all. Yet I was beat across the head by countless news reports of the data some yahoos tortured to proclaim whatever day the hottest ever.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

No – the Maldives sank beneath the waves in the 1990s. Someone from NASA said so in 1989.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Maldives growing larger you say? Can you substantiate that? Should be a hard fact.

james goater
james goater
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Pedant alert, sorry. The Maldives is an island chain in the Indian Ocean but, apart from its Islamic culture, has a definite Pacific Island Nation (PIN)-feel to it, blue sea, blue sky, etc.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

You obviously missed the news that 80% of those Pacific islands are growing in size. This is absolutely not in dispute. I remember the UN holding a press conference under water in the Maldives about 15 years ago. 97% of the islands that make up the chain have grown larger.

James Sullivan
James Sullivan
1 year ago

Who are you and what did you do with Fazi? This is actually sensible!

James Sullivan
James Sullivan
1 year ago

Who are you and what did you do with Fazi? This is actually sensible!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

“It is estimated that the Covid-19 pandemic and subsequent surge in inflation and borrowing costs had pushed an extra 165 million people into poverty, bringing the total global figure to 1.65 billion, over 20% of the world’s population.”

This says it all IMO. This number is absolutely staggering – only eight countries in the world have more than 165 million people. It’s the equivalent of two Britain’s. Our priorities and policy making are such an incomprehensible mess right now, it’s hard not to get angry. Even worse, I never heard about this at all. Yet I was beat across the head by countless news reports of the data some yahoos tortured to proclaim whatever day the hottest ever.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

This comment was deleted. Guess it’s too inflammatory.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

As was/is my optimistic reply!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So which “hysteria” are you supporting at the moment? Climate or covid? It’s so hard to know which is ‘hysteria’, and which is ‘evil suppression of the terrifying Truth’. Ooh, it’d been deleted! Oh, no it hasn’t. It turns out it was dumb click-bait.
The internet makes the choice of conspiracy paranoia such fun…

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

As was/is my optimistic reply!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So which “hysteria” are you supporting at the moment? Climate or covid? It’s so hard to know which is ‘hysteria’, and which is ‘evil suppression of the terrifying Truth’. Ooh, it’d been deleted! Oh, no it hasn’t. It turns out it was dumb click-bait.
The internet makes the choice of conspiracy paranoia such fun…

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

This comment was deleted. Guess it’s too inflammatory.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

“It is estimated that the Covid-19 pandemic and subsequent surge in inflation and borrowing costs had pushed an extra 165 million people into poverty, bringing the total global figure to 1.65 billion, over 20% of the world’s population.”

This says it all IMO. This number is absolutely staggering – only eight countries in the world have more than 165 million people. It’s the equivalent of two Britain’s. Our priorities and policy making are such an incomprehensible mess right now, it’s hard not to get angry. Even worse, I never heard about this at all. Yet I was beat across the head by countless news reports of the data some yahoos tortured to proclaim whatever day the hottest ever.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jim Veenbaas
RM Parker
RM Parker
1 year ago

Yuval continues (for 94 pages): “I don’t want to talk to you, no more, you empty-headed animal, food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries…”

RM Parker
RM Parker
1 year ago

Yuval continues (for 94 pages): “I don’t want to talk to you, no more, you empty-headed animal, food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. You mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries…”

Walter Lantz
Walter Lantz
1 year ago

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
H. L. Mencken
If you know what Stakeholder Capitalism, DeGrowth and Doughnut Economics are then you’ll have a good idea on where the West is heading and why. Climate Change is touted as the reason but it is merely an excuse for yet another attempt at a socialist utopia that will fail just like all the others.

Walter Lantz
Walter Lantz
1 year ago

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
H. L. Mencken
If you know what Stakeholder Capitalism, DeGrowth and Doughnut Economics are then you’ll have a good idea on where the West is heading and why. Climate Change is touted as the reason but it is merely an excuse for yet another attempt at a socialist utopia that will fail just like all the others.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
1 year ago

I suggest preparation against their messianic drive towards disaster. Governments are now playing with the lowest levels of Maslow’s hierarchy. I don’t trust them to educate me or keep me well, so I’m definitely not sitting around waiting to see if they can feed me and keep me warm.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

Maybe you should study some physics, then. ‘Maslow’s hierarchy’ is just ’50’s pseudo-science psychology.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Susan Grabston

Maybe you should study some physics, then. ‘Maslow’s hierarchy’ is just ’50’s pseudo-science psychology.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
1 year ago

I suggest preparation against their messianic drive towards disaster. Governments are now playing with the lowest levels of Maslow’s hierarchy. I don’t trust them to educate me or keep me well, so I’m definitely not sitting around waiting to see if they can feed me and keep me warm.

Rachel Taylor
Rachel Taylor
1 year ago

The question is: why do public organisations like the BBC drive the narrative of impending catastrophe? Is it simply that journalists like to create a sense of panic, to keep their audience? Or is it a sense of mission, doing their bit to change the behaviour of the public? Or are they just gullible enough to believe it?

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

They will fall foul of censors if they don’t kowtow enough to the climate agenda. Arguing against it is considered just as blasphemous as denying the Holocaust, hence the term ‘climate-denier’.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

A bit if all of this. If doesn’t bleed, it doesn’t lead.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

If you are genuinely interested, read this.

https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/activist-propaganda-from-the-bbc

The neo-Marxist loonies telling you there are no neo-Marxist loonies (it’s all a “far-right conspiracy theory”, don’t you know) are the worst of humanity.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Ooh- is that a link to your internet consumer blather? Wow, thanks for that, John.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Ooh- is that a link to your internet consumer blather? Wow, thanks for that, John.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

Some ‘journalists’, unbelievably, have even been rewarded with Knighthoods!

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

They will fall foul of censors if they don’t kowtow enough to the climate agenda. Arguing against it is considered just as blasphemous as denying the Holocaust, hence the term ‘climate-denier’.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

A bit if all of this. If doesn’t bleed, it doesn’t lead.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

If you are genuinely interested, read this.

https://johnsullivan.substack.com/p/activist-propaganda-from-the-bbc

The neo-Marxist loonies telling you there are no neo-Marxist loonies (it’s all a “far-right conspiracy theory”, don’t you know) are the worst of humanity.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Rachel Taylor

Some ‘journalists’, unbelievably, have even been rewarded with Knighthoods!

Rachel Taylor
Rachel Taylor
1 year ago

The question is: why do public organisations like the BBC drive the narrative of impending catastrophe? Is it simply that journalists like to create a sense of panic, to keep their audience? Or is it a sense of mission, doing their bit to change the behaviour of the public? Or are they just gullible enough to believe it?

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

“(I)f the world is about to end, anything is justified.” (Emphasis added.)
You just explained why they’re so desperate to convince us the world is about to end. Progressives have been trying to shut down western culture for decades, because its free market and personal freedom principles make it impossible for them to take power as socialist overlords running everyone’s lives for their own good.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

“(I)f the world is about to end, anything is justified.” (Emphasis added.)
You just explained why they’re so desperate to convince us the world is about to end. Progressives have been trying to shut down western culture for decades, because its free market and personal freedom principles make it impossible for them to take power as socialist overlords running everyone’s lives for their own good.

David Pogge
David Pogge
1 year ago

A heat wave is weather, not climate. Climate is based on averages across long periods of time (i.e., decades) over the entire world surface. There have always been hot spells and cold spells. This has nothing to do with ‘climate change’. Journalists should know better and scientists should be correcting them if they do not.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  David Pogge

Entire decades? On a planet that is 4,500,000,000 years old? Quite a small sample size there.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  David Pogge

Entire decades? On a planet that is 4,500,000,000 years old? Quite a small sample size there.

David Pogge
David Pogge
1 year ago

A heat wave is weather, not climate. Climate is based on averages across long periods of time (i.e., decades) over the entire world surface. There have always been hot spells and cold spells. This has nothing to do with ‘climate change’. Journalists should know better and scientists should be correcting them if they do not.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Why is anyone replying to this dope? Yes, I know that’s what I’ve just done.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago

Why is anyone replying to this dope? Yes, I know that’s what I’ve just done.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
1 year ago

One of the most aggressive aspects of reducing fossil fuel reliance is the forced shift to electric vehicles, while there is very little understanding of the cyber-vulnerabilities of digitally controlled vehicles.
Since the vast majority of cyber-crimes are not recognised as crimes – some reasons listed below, cyber-risks of any kind are grossly underestimated. Risks we don’t know* we cannot plan to avoid/mitigate.
A moving vehicle controlled by someone other than the driver in the vehicle is a deadly missile in motion: deadly to people in its path, not only to those who are in the vehicle.
Any remedy is after the fact, and no one can bring back the dead.
Car manufacturers’ power combined with political push to make electric cars the norm means victims of immature, deadly technology are powerless.

“manufacturers … are now building cars in such a way that makes their electrical systems and computer networks act like smartphones that are connected to the Internet, this opens up a whole host of possibilities for hackers, allowing them to gain access to critical systems remotely using wireless connections.”

Source: Purple Griffon Limited (UK) – see article for remote interference examples that are already widely known in 2023.
Cyber-crime ranges/volumes are unknown/risk-free because*
– Attacks are mistaken for tech glitches/features, blocked calls/messages never known
– Corrupt law-enforcement e.g. Victoria Police block identified cyber-crime reporting (Melbourne, Australia 2009-current in my case*)
– Admitting to successful attacks likely damages victims’ reputation, attackers gain further business ops
– Cyber-criminals’ individual guilt beyond reasonable doubt unprovable even in the tiny % of incidents that are obviously crimes e.g. ransomware/theft/child sexual abuse
– Acts not classified = acts not counted = nothing learned
For an act to be classified as a cyber-crime type, it must*
– Show consistent/easy to see patterns
– Have rational motives/start/end/processes: opportunistic crimes may seem irrational
– Have severe enough immediate impact to breach alert-fatigue
– Affect those, whose voice is heard in a country like Australia, where justice is only for the privileged*
– Be reproducible/likely to reoccur
– Be preventable/defence feasible
– Have a clear cause e.g. phishing fail
– Involve tech understood by civilian experts – agency/weapons grade tech is risk-free for Australian Organised Crime, since these capabilities don’t exist officially
* Writing here as a technology practitioner of almost 30 years, a Science graduate and an involuntary expert in cyber-crime in Melbourne, Australia, 2009-current. Last cyber-crime I could not avoid noticing less than 24 hours ago.

Last edited 1 year ago by Katalin Kish
Chris Maille
Chris Maille
1 year ago
Reply to  Katalin Kish

Not to forget the effect that the politically enforced use of electric vehicles in the first world will drop the prices of fossil fuel in other parts of the world and thus lead to more fossil fuel consumption overall.

David Lonsdale
David Lonsdale
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

The recent report by the Manhattan Institute, “Electric Vehicles for Everyone? The Impossible Dream” demonstrates that EV’s are more environmentally damaging than gas fuelled ones. I’ll keep my old hatchback for a few years yet, government permitting!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  David Lonsdale

So the Manhattan Institute are the unquestionable oracle?
What makes you take this as the Truth, above others? Seriously- why accept this without question, when so many more sources disagree?

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Great straw man fallacy example John.
There are plenty of intelligent arguments against the push for electric vehicles. From my own experience with the risk-free devastation cyber-crimes already pose in Australia, electric vehicles’ hackability poses an unacceptable risk to public safety. These vehicles should be banned.
Since the Internet is everywhere, Australia’s organised crime can deliver involuntary euthanasia as a service against targets anywhere on Earth – without any risk of harm to themselves.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Katalin Kish

Thorax (Holland) seems to be suffering from a persecution complex, accusing others of describing him as “evil Marxist filth”, for example.

He is scientifically illiterate, and incapable of backing’s up his assertions. However he can be rather amusing occasionally, it must be said.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Katalin Kish

Thorax (Holland) seems to be suffering from a persecution complex, accusing others of describing him as “evil Marxist filth”, for example.

He is scientifically illiterate, and incapable of backing’s up his assertions. However he can be rather amusing occasionally, it must be said.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Great straw man fallacy example John.
There are plenty of intelligent arguments against the push for electric vehicles. From my own experience with the risk-free devastation cyber-crimes already pose in Australia, electric vehicles’ hackability poses an unacceptable risk to public safety. These vehicles should be banned.
Since the Internet is everywhere, Australia’s organised crime can deliver involuntary euthanasia as a service against targets anywhere on Earth – without any risk of harm to themselves.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  David Lonsdale

So the Manhattan Institute are the unquestionable oracle?
What makes you take this as the Truth, above others? Seriously- why accept this without question, when so many more sources disagree?

David Lonsdale
David Lonsdale
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Maille

The recent report by the Manhattan Institute, “Electric Vehicles for Everyone? The Impossible Dream” demonstrates that EV’s are more environmentally damaging than gas fuelled ones. I’ll keep my old hatchback for a few years yet, government permitting!

Chris Maille
Chris Maille
1 year ago
Reply to  Katalin Kish

Not to forget the effect that the politically enforced use of electric vehicles in the first world will drop the prices of fossil fuel in other parts of the world and thus lead to more fossil fuel consumption overall.

Katalin Kish
Katalin Kish
1 year ago

One of the most aggressive aspects of reducing fossil fuel reliance is the forced shift to electric vehicles, while there is very little understanding of the cyber-vulnerabilities of digitally controlled vehicles.
Since the vast majority of cyber-crimes are not recognised as crimes – some reasons listed below, cyber-risks of any kind are grossly underestimated. Risks we don’t know* we cannot plan to avoid/mitigate.
A moving vehicle controlled by someone other than the driver in the vehicle is a deadly missile in motion: deadly to people in its path, not only to those who are in the vehicle.
Any remedy is after the fact, and no one can bring back the dead.
Car manufacturers’ power combined with political push to make electric cars the norm means victims of immature, deadly technology are powerless.

“manufacturers … are now building cars in such a way that makes their electrical systems and computer networks act like smartphones that are connected to the Internet, this opens up a whole host of possibilities for hackers, allowing them to gain access to critical systems remotely using wireless connections.”

Source: Purple Griffon Limited (UK) – see article for remote interference examples that are already widely known in 2023.
Cyber-crime ranges/volumes are unknown/risk-free because*
– Attacks are mistaken for tech glitches/features, blocked calls/messages never known
– Corrupt law-enforcement e.g. Victoria Police block identified cyber-crime reporting (Melbourne, Australia 2009-current in my case*)
– Admitting to successful attacks likely damages victims’ reputation, attackers gain further business ops
– Cyber-criminals’ individual guilt beyond reasonable doubt unprovable even in the tiny % of incidents that are obviously crimes e.g. ransomware/theft/child sexual abuse
– Acts not classified = acts not counted = nothing learned
For an act to be classified as a cyber-crime type, it must*
– Show consistent/easy to see patterns
– Have rational motives/start/end/processes: opportunistic crimes may seem irrational
– Have severe enough immediate impact to breach alert-fatigue
– Affect those, whose voice is heard in a country like Australia, where justice is only for the privileged*
– Be reproducible/likely to reoccur
– Be preventable/defence feasible
– Have a clear cause e.g. phishing fail
– Involve tech understood by civilian experts – agency/weapons grade tech is risk-free for Australian Organised Crime, since these capabilities don’t exist officially
* Writing here as a technology practitioner of almost 30 years, a Science graduate and an involuntary expert in cyber-crime in Melbourne, Australia, 2009-current. Last cyber-crime I could not avoid noticing less than 24 hours ago.

Last edited 1 year ago by Katalin Kish
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Ruddy Norah! Thomas Farzi can actually be quite sensible!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

“Rubber” has returned, and is ‘flagging’ everything he can.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Ugh, I know! He brings his stink of latex and elderly boar.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Ugh, I know! He brings his stink of latex and elderly boar.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

“Rubber” has returned, and is ‘flagging’ everything he can.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Ruddy Norah! Thomas Farzi can actually be quite sensible!

Michael Walsh
Michael Walsh
1 year ago

The subtext of every environmentalist manifesto is always a message to the poor: Just enough of us; way too many of you. Getting rid of the poor is a WEF priority. Every time I hear, e.g. David Attenborough’s pontificating, I hear “Wogs begin at Calais.”

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael Walsh

Delighted to see Attenborough being exposed on here for the elitist misanthropist he is. Great comment all round.

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael Walsh

Delighted to see Attenborough being exposed on here for the elitist misanthropist he is. Great comment all round.

Michael Walsh
Michael Walsh
1 year ago

The subtext of every environmentalist manifesto is always a message to the poor: Just enough of us; way too many of you. Getting rid of the poor is a WEF priority. Every time I hear, e.g. David Attenborough’s pontificating, I hear “Wogs begin at Calais.”

Edward Forwood
Edward Forwood
1 year ago

The biggest effect that climate change will have on the ruling Notting Hill set will be to shorten their skiing seasons. It is a shame that so many people fall prey to groupthink led by politicians and over-enthusiastic scientists. Covid lockdowns and climate hysteria are prime examples of ignorant groupthink.

Edward Forwood
Edward Forwood
1 year ago

The biggest effect that climate change will have on the ruling Notting Hill set will be to shorten their skiing seasons. It is a shame that so many people fall prey to groupthink led by politicians and over-enthusiastic scientists. Covid lockdowns and climate hysteria are prime examples of ignorant groupthink.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

weird

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

AI generated perhaps …

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

AI has a sense of humour then!

Steve Murray
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

AI has a sense of humour then!

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

“Rubber” has returned!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

How excited you must be Charlie!!!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

How excited you must be Charlie!!!

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

AI generated perhaps …

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

“Rubber” has returned!

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

weird

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago

Last edited 8 hours ago by Yuval Legendtofski

That’s after editing.

Helen Grove-White
Helen Grove-White
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Dalton

Not bothering to reply. Just terminating my subscription to this platform.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago

Is that aimed at me?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

coward…

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

You’ still very angry, Nicky.
Why is that- is it because you sound foreign?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

You’ still very angry, Nicky.
Why is that- is it because you sound foreign?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

So soon?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

The articles are often pretty interesting, and far more varied, ideologically, than the tedious and rantingly brainless group-think BTL.
Worth sticking around for, I think- just avoid the idiocy of the comments. And yes, occasionally I break my own rule if I’m particularly bored.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago

Is that aimed at me?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

coward…

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

So soon?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

The articles are often pretty interesting, and far more varied, ideologically, than the tedious and rantingly brainless group-think BTL.
Worth sticking around for, I think- just avoid the idiocy of the comments. And yes, occasionally I break my own rule if I’m particularly bored.

Helen Grove-White
Helen Grove-White
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Dalton

Not bothering to reply. Just terminating my subscription to this platform.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago

Last edited 8 hours ago by Yuval Legendtofski

That’s after editing.

Chuck Pezeshki
Chuck Pezeshki
1 year ago

The current batch of ‘climate’ activists are actually collapse advocates, with climate change policy being the mechanism to bring about collapse. That’s the real problem. There is some simplistic, disordered-child fantasy that what will spring up during/after collapse will be utopian. No one will die during the collapse, except the bad people who need to die anyway.
That’s the real problem. Most of the Left’s social policy agendas have turned into this as well. The real goal IS collapse. Not fixing anything. Something to remember when reading.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Chuck Pezeshki

Could you try to actually explain what you mean, in specific terms?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Chuck Pezeshki

Could you try to actually explain what you mean, in specific terms?

Chuck Pezeshki
Chuck Pezeshki
1 year ago

The current batch of ‘climate’ activists are actually collapse advocates, with climate change policy being the mechanism to bring about collapse. That’s the real problem. There is some simplistic, disordered-child fantasy that what will spring up during/after collapse will be utopian. No one will die during the collapse, except the bad people who need to die anyway.
That’s the real problem. Most of the Left’s social policy agendas have turned into this as well. The real goal IS collapse. Not fixing anything. Something to remember when reading.

Louise Kowitch
Louise Kowitch
1 year ago

The climate-apocalypse narrative muddles our thinking on many fronts. First, it narrows our framework for discourse to a zero sum, live -or- die absolutism. What about QUALITY of life? Second, it takes individuals off the hook for taking responsibility for living more sustainable lives, and blames corporations and governments. This further diminishes human agency. Finally, the fixation on climate obscures the welter of environmental issues that we can improve without big government fixes eg water pollution, loss of wetlands and mangroves, conservation. Live frugally, consume less water,plastic, and petrol, walk and bike more, grow native plants that don’t require fertilizer…these are just a few things the media rarely hones in on. In a nutshell, conservation. The more we do as individuals to stop pollution at its source, the less alienated citizens will be from engaging in solutions that improve our quality of life.

Edward De Beukelaer
Edward De Beukelaer
1 year ago
Reply to  Louise Kowitch

Dear Louise, yours is one of the more interesting replies i have read in this thread. We tend to polarise discussion on one topic, each of us thinking we know, while the great physicists of the last 50+ years have warned us that there are no absolute truths, there are merely opinions and conventions, some more accurate than others.
Indeed considering that we need to have a more respectful attitude to the earth and its resources is important and also making sure we make that connection with our environment and the food we eat needed to maintain a healthy life balance. But when you say these things in our modern world you are considered to be fluffy, because scientific facts are all that count: they convey the truth……..
If the climate change debate can change to a debate on how we can live better, how can we make sure more people have good lives, that would be more interesting. Well, we do not really need to ask this question: it is about good education and acceptable living/working conditions. But that would mean reducing the influence of money, power, technical prowess, the material things,…. it is not going to happen soon. it is not clinical enough..

Edward De Beukelaer
Edward De Beukelaer
1 year ago
Reply to  Louise Kowitch

Dear Louise, yours is one of the more interesting replies i have read in this thread. We tend to polarise discussion on one topic, each of us thinking we know, while the great physicists of the last 50+ years have warned us that there are no absolute truths, there are merely opinions and conventions, some more accurate than others.
Indeed considering that we need to have a more respectful attitude to the earth and its resources is important and also making sure we make that connection with our environment and the food we eat needed to maintain a healthy life balance. But when you say these things in our modern world you are considered to be fluffy, because scientific facts are all that count: they convey the truth……..
If the climate change debate can change to a debate on how we can live better, how can we make sure more people have good lives, that would be more interesting. Well, we do not really need to ask this question: it is about good education and acceptable living/working conditions. But that would mean reducing the influence of money, power, technical prowess, the material things,…. it is not going to happen soon. it is not clinical enough..

Louise Kowitch
Louise Kowitch
1 year ago

The climate-apocalypse narrative muddles our thinking on many fronts. First, it narrows our framework for discourse to a zero sum, live -or- die absolutism. What about QUALITY of life? Second, it takes individuals off the hook for taking responsibility for living more sustainable lives, and blames corporations and governments. This further diminishes human agency. Finally, the fixation on climate obscures the welter of environmental issues that we can improve without big government fixes eg water pollution, loss of wetlands and mangroves, conservation. Live frugally, consume less water,plastic, and petrol, walk and bike more, grow native plants that don’t require fertilizer…these are just a few things the media rarely hones in on. In a nutshell, conservation. The more we do as individuals to stop pollution at its source, the less alienated citizens will be from engaging in solutions that improve our quality of life.

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
1 year ago

Excellent article. Many thanks. I intend to forward it widely and I urge others to do likewise. It is important to get balanced and sensible insights into wider circulation in order to counter the current hysteria.

Malcolm Webb
Malcolm Webb
1 year ago

Excellent article. Many thanks. I intend to forward it widely and I urge others to do likewise. It is important to get balanced and sensible insights into wider circulation in order to counter the current hysteria.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

As at 08.29 BST. Seven comments have already ‘disappeared’!
What is going on?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

So very typical

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

Charlie, dearest- you know I am horrible, evil Marxist filth, and yet my comments disappear regularly here.
This must mean, given your usual lazy conspiratorial ideations, that evil Marxists are silenced by the ‘MSM’. And yet you ‘know’ that only you and your lovely chums are ‘cancelled’ by Them- thus, there exists the rational possibility that comments here are actually just randomly delayed to ensure they are not unusually offensive.
The fact is that dribbling, anti-science right-wing conspiratorial ranting is very profitable on the ‘net- just as ‘woke’ virtue-signalling is- and no ‘provider’ is going to judge it. It makes money, if not sense. So you and your fellow ranters have nothing to fear- even though you love to pretend you are constantly being ‘cancelled’.
Don’t worry- your irrational tripe will invariably appear, albeit with a slight delay.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Come on Thorax you’re loosing the plot. I have never described you as “evil Marxist filth”, and you know that.

However your return to UnHerd after a gap of several months seems to have coincided with a marked increase in ‘flagging’. Thus the obvious conclusion is that YOU are to blame! Do you deny it?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Come on Thorax you’re loosing the plot. I have never described you as “evil Marxist filth”, and you know that.

However your return to UnHerd after a gap of several months seems to have coincided with a marked increase in ‘flagging’. Thus the obvious conclusion is that YOU are to blame! Do you deny it?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

So very typical

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

Charlie, dearest- you know I am horrible, evil Marxist filth, and yet my comments disappear regularly here.
This must mean, given your usual lazy conspiratorial ideations, that evil Marxists are silenced by the ‘MSM’. And yet you ‘know’ that only you and your lovely chums are ‘cancelled’ by Them- thus, there exists the rational possibility that comments here are actually just randomly delayed to ensure they are not unusually offensive.
The fact is that dribbling, anti-science right-wing conspiratorial ranting is very profitable on the ‘net- just as ‘woke’ virtue-signalling is- and no ‘provider’ is going to judge it. It makes money, if not sense. So you and your fellow ranters have nothing to fear- even though you love to pretend you are constantly being ‘cancelled’.
Don’t worry- your irrational tripe will invariably appear, albeit with a slight delay.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

As at 08.29 BST. Seven comments have already ‘disappeared’!
What is going on?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

Actually, old boy, it’s Lord’s not Lord…Do you have some vinegar to drink to make you more bitter AND put on your shoulder chips?

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

Actually, old boy, it’s Lord’s not Lord…Do you have some vinegar to drink to make you more bitter AND put on your shoulder chips?

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

This may be so – about climate change etc. I think the greater concerns are the runaway degradation of the environment, mass extinction of species, over-population and the growing likelihood of violent conflict over resources.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago

This may be so – about climate change etc. I think the greater concerns are the runaway degradation of the environment, mass extinction of species, over-population and the growing likelihood of violent conflict over resources.

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago

Glad to see this very good article on the near ubiquitous climate hysteria. I was starting to worry UnHerd was swerving this issue as I hadn’t come across much on environmentalism in the few months I’ve been subscribing. Good also to see the stat that climate-related fatalities are down by some 96% getting a mention, likewise the fact that it would make a negligible difference to world temperatures even if we stopped all carbon emissions now (I first read both of these in Bjorn Lomborg’s eminently sane book False Alarm).

Andrew H
Andrew H
1 year ago

Glad to see this very good article on the near ubiquitous climate hysteria. I was starting to worry UnHerd was swerving this issue as I hadn’t come across much on environmentalism in the few months I’ve been subscribing. Good also to see the stat that climate-related fatalities are down by some 96% getting a mention, likewise the fact that it would make a negligible difference to world temperatures even if we stopped all carbon emissions now (I first read both of these in Bjorn Lomborg’s eminently sane book False Alarm).

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Is English your native tongue may I ask?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

Is English your native tongue may I ask?

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

A more sensible Fazi offering, but still holes in it.
Whilst some scientists do worry about run-away Global warming and consequences, the imminent end of humankind as we know it is not the scenario most convey. Increased migration and strife over water and land resources more the indication. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other causes of conflict that can provoke even more population movement but how much do we want to provoke? (Plenty of evidence that climate change provoked population movement not a new phenomenon at all – this is just the latest)
Then more in the detail – Fazi refers to how perhaps we just need to adjust and fit more A/C etc. Inconsistently he then refers to the huge cost of driving climate change reduction policy but doesn’t refer to the cost of alternative adaptation and then who pays? Is he suggesting the polluters at least pay for us all to fit A/C given it’s an externality they currently do not have built into their pricing? I exaggerate a bit to illuminate the point, but he doesn’t cover both sides of coin does he.
More broadly we’ve learnt better energy independence can be important to a Nation’s autonomy. That doesn’t mean ‘Go Green’ the only way, but there may be other good geo-political reasons for greatly reducing reliance on fossil fuels disproportionately located in some, shall we just say for now, tricky locations.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Natural gas is pretty well everywhere and very cheap to extract.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

It’s not the cheap, or pretty much everywhere would already be harvesting their own and the Straits of Hormuz would be empty.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Stop using facts. Facts are offensive.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Stop using facts. Facts are offensive.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

It’s not the cheap, or pretty much everywhere would already be harvesting their own and the Straits of Hormuz would be empty.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Water supply should never be an issue for any country. Having the power and prosperity to desalinate is though.

No doubt there is a cost to climate adaptation, but the world has spent many trillions on renewable energy in the last 20 years and fossil fuel use hadn’t went down at all.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Yep we agree adaptation will have some major costs, and should we be helping poorer countries with desalination investment as we pump more CO2 into the atmosphere, even if just to limit future population movement? My point was Fazi not being clear if he’s suggesting that.
On your 2nd para, yes although may have slowed the rate from what it may otherwise have been.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

No question we have slowed the rate of fossil fuel growth. Putting aside the science, all the money invested in wind and solar seems like nothing more than virtue signalling waste and corruption. If CO2 is a problem, build out nuclear. We know it works. It’s such a tragic waste of money.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Agreed on nuclear – we should always have more than one source of energy however, so renewables are a viable part of the picture.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Concur on Nuclear too

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Concur on Nuclear too

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Agreed on nuclear – we should always have more than one source of energy however, so renewables are a viable part of the picture.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

No question we have slowed the rate of fossil fuel growth. Putting aside the science, all the money invested in wind and solar seems like nothing more than virtue signalling waste and corruption. If CO2 is a problem, build out nuclear. We know it works. It’s such a tragic waste of money.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Yep we agree adaptation will have some major costs, and should we be helping poorer countries with desalination investment as we pump more CO2 into the atmosphere, even if just to limit future population movement? My point was Fazi not being clear if he’s suggesting that.
On your 2nd para, yes although may have slowed the rate from what it may otherwise have been.

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Natural gas is pretty well everywhere and very cheap to extract.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Water supply should never be an issue for any country. Having the power and prosperity to desalinate is though.

No doubt there is a cost to climate adaptation, but the world has spent many trillions on renewable energy in the last 20 years and fossil fuel use hadn’t went down at all.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

A more sensible Fazi offering, but still holes in it.
Whilst some scientists do worry about run-away Global warming and consequences, the imminent end of humankind as we know it is not the scenario most convey. Increased migration and strife over water and land resources more the indication. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other causes of conflict that can provoke even more population movement but how much do we want to provoke? (Plenty of evidence that climate change provoked population movement not a new phenomenon at all – this is just the latest)
Then more in the detail – Fazi refers to how perhaps we just need to adjust and fit more A/C etc. Inconsistently he then refers to the huge cost of driving climate change reduction policy but doesn’t refer to the cost of alternative adaptation and then who pays? Is he suggesting the polluters at least pay for us all to fit A/C given it’s an externality they currently do not have built into their pricing? I exaggerate a bit to illuminate the point, but he doesn’t cover both sides of coin does he.
More broadly we’ve learnt better energy independence can be important to a Nation’s autonomy. That doesn’t mean ‘Go Green’ the only way, but there may be other good geo-political reasons for greatly reducing reliance on fossil fuels disproportionately located in some, shall we just say for now, tricky locations.

Peter Jenks
Peter Jenks
1 year ago

Such well argued and logical analysis of the reality of climate evolution is likely to get one Cancelled by those with a vested interest in fear.
The latest incoherent idiocy by a British minister is a statement that Hydrogen cannot be added to natural gas because the infrastructure is not compatible with it. This overlooks the 75 or so years when town gas, a mix of hydrogen, methane and carbon monoxide was distributed through that same infrastructure.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Jenks

Excellent point. That really is a “killer fact” !
But you can’t possibly expect any modern politician to be troubled by scientific or historical facts (they’re busy rewriting history as we comment).

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Jenks

Excellent point. That really is a “killer fact” !
But you can’t possibly expect any modern politician to be troubled by scientific or historical facts (they’re busy rewriting history as we comment).

Peter Jenks
Peter Jenks
1 year ago

Such well argued and logical analysis of the reality of climate evolution is likely to get one Cancelled by those with a vested interest in fear.
The latest incoherent idiocy by a British minister is a statement that Hydrogen cannot be added to natural gas because the infrastructure is not compatible with it. This overlooks the 75 or so years when town gas, a mix of hydrogen, methane and carbon monoxide was distributed through that same infrastructure.

Steven Campbell
Steven Campbell
1 year ago

All this to cover real issues. Let’s see, perhaps more electricity from Nuclear Energy, not windmills and Solar Panels. Water seems to be a problem. Lots of water in some places, next to none in others, what about some of that money invested in the storage and transport of water? Electric Grid, could be some work done there. Our politicians seems so concerned with Climate Change that they are prevented from fixing pot holes, making public transport safe and taking care of basic infrastructure. This is not to mention care of forests on public lands, a forgotten issue, because, yes, climate change.

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago

Just remember that esteemed environmentalist-governor Gavin Newsom has been taking Californian water away from Californian folks to hand over to Nestlé. What a green policy indeed!

Josh Woods
Josh Woods
1 year ago

Just remember that esteemed environmentalist-governor Gavin Newsom has been taking Californian water away from Californian folks to hand over to Nestlé. What a green policy indeed!

Steven Campbell
Steven Campbell
1 year ago

All this to cover real issues. Let’s see, perhaps more electricity from Nuclear Energy, not windmills and Solar Panels. Water seems to be a problem. Lots of water in some places, next to none in others, what about some of that money invested in the storage and transport of water? Electric Grid, could be some work done there. Our politicians seems so concerned with Climate Change that they are prevented from fixing pot holes, making public transport safe and taking care of basic infrastructure. This is not to mention care of forests on public lands, a forgotten issue, because, yes, climate change.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

Just imagine what it would be like to listen to intelligent, informed and educated people discuss AGW without a single implication that anyone who disagrees with oneself is a commie or a fascist. Imagine just the science, pro and con stripped of political baggage. Not here of course, still it would be a pleasure to see such a discussion. No doubt the subject is *enormously* complex and that’s just the objective science. Then we hafta decide what the hell to do about it and one can hardly imagine a more difficult topic. Might honest people disagree to some extent? Might mistakes have been made but in good faith?
I think the author is at least trying to be honest. But he’s a member, it would seem, of the church of Infinite Growth, and IMHO that’s a bad religion. My own religion is Sustainable Planet, just for the record. Does that mean I’m a commie?

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

I think the word you’re searching for is probably “Marxist”.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

I tend to use them alternately. Low brow righties tend to call me a commie, high brow righties prefer Marxist. But then again the wokies call me a fascist.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

I doubt it. That’s just the standard catch-all US internet term for anyone, anywhere, who has any thoughts whatsoever that don’t conform to US-style Randian pseudo-libertarianism.
It’s bunk.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

I tend to use them alternately. Low brow righties tend to call me a commie, high brow righties prefer Marxist. But then again the wokies call me a fascist.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

I doubt it. That’s just the standard catch-all US internet term for anyone, anywhere, who has any thoughts whatsoever that don’t conform to US-style Randian pseudo-libertarianism.
It’s bunk.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

I think the word you’re searching for is probably “Marxist”.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago

Just imagine what it would be like to listen to intelligent, informed and educated people discuss AGW without a single implication that anyone who disagrees with oneself is a commie or a fascist. Imagine just the science, pro and con stripped of political baggage. Not here of course, still it would be a pleasure to see such a discussion. No doubt the subject is *enormously* complex and that’s just the objective science. Then we hafta decide what the hell to do about it and one can hardly imagine a more difficult topic. Might honest people disagree to some extent? Might mistakes have been made but in good faith?
I think the author is at least trying to be honest. But he’s a member, it would seem, of the church of Infinite Growth, and IMHO that’s a bad religion. My own religion is Sustainable Planet, just for the record. Does that mean I’m a commie?

Peter Gray
Peter Gray
1 year ago

A couple of points are worth adding:
First, we honestly do not know if CO2 is the main driver of the climate warming trend. In “Unsettled” Prof. Koonin, a prominent climate scientist and a member of the IPCC puts a question mark on this matter. There is a number of other scientists that either reject the theses of AGW or question their impact.
Second, CO2 is the single most important component of the atmosphere which allows for life on Earth. We are currently at about 420 ppm (and rising about 1.5 ppm per year) but the Earth used to see two orders of magnitude higher concentrations and the life was thriving. Note that at 150 ppm the plants will start to die and with it all the life on our planet.
Third, the scientific community involved in climate change studies is corrupt by massive donations and grants which support research that will exclusively focus on negative effects of global warming and the human causes of it. Note that the IPCC charter requires it to study exclusively human impacts on the climate, which means it will not sponsor any studies which would target natural causes.
Fourth, we are already seeing positive developments from increased CO2 levels while less so from rising temperatures (still no palm trees in Oslo). Some crop yields have tripled since the 1960’s and the IPCC credits it, at least partially, to the rising CO2 levels. Moreover, we see significant greening of the planet, including more forests and less deserts, which includes south Sahara.
Finally, the best indicator of the warming trend should be rising sea levels caused by the melting of land-based ice. Since we started to measure the MSL using satellite we now have solid data in that matter and it is showing steady, slow rise (about 1 ft per century) but no acceleration over the past several decades. There is no cause for alarm, just a lot of group thinking.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Gray
Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Gray

We do know. It’s scientific fact. Never rely on one indicator, it can mislead you, as is clearly shown in your post.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Gray

Peak warmth post Ice Age was about 8000 years ago, when deciduous trees grew over Sweden.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Gray

We do know. It’s scientific fact. Never rely on one indicator, it can mislead you, as is clearly shown in your post.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Gray

Peak warmth post Ice Age was about 8000 years ago, when deciduous trees grew over Sweden.

Peter Gray
Peter Gray
1 year ago

A couple of points are worth adding:
First, we honestly do not know if CO2 is the main driver of the climate warming trend. In “Unsettled” Prof. Koonin, a prominent climate scientist and a member of the IPCC puts a question mark on this matter. There is a number of other scientists that either reject the theses of AGW or question their impact.
Second, CO2 is the single most important component of the atmosphere which allows for life on Earth. We are currently at about 420 ppm (and rising about 1.5 ppm per year) but the Earth used to see two orders of magnitude higher concentrations and the life was thriving. Note that at 150 ppm the plants will start to die and with it all the life on our planet.
Third, the scientific community involved in climate change studies is corrupt by massive donations and grants which support research that will exclusively focus on negative effects of global warming and the human causes of it. Note that the IPCC charter requires it to study exclusively human impacts on the climate, which means it will not sponsor any studies which would target natural causes.
Fourth, we are already seeing positive developments from increased CO2 levels while less so from rising temperatures (still no palm trees in Oslo). Some crop yields have tripled since the 1960’s and the IPCC credits it, at least partially, to the rising CO2 levels. Moreover, we see significant greening of the planet, including more forests and less deserts, which includes south Sahara.
Finally, the best indicator of the warming trend should be rising sea levels caused by the melting of land-based ice. Since we started to measure the MSL using satellite we now have solid data in that matter and it is showing steady, slow rise (about 1 ft per century) but no acceleration over the past several decades. There is no cause for alarm, just a lot of group thinking.

Last edited 1 year ago by Peter Gray
Bruno Lucy
Bruno Lucy
1 year ago

Sorry….I just couldn’t read this to the end. Talk of negationism !!!
2003….15 000 people died in France, all of heat related problems. Lots of elderlies living alone died…..well…..alone. 7 times as many as in the UK.
To figure out what life in a city like Paris would be like, you can read the short version here.
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/04/25/paris-could-hit-50-degrees-by-2050-new-report-warns-how-can-the-city-adapt
The original is to be found there ….sadly, in French only.
https://cdn.paris.fr/paris/2023/04/21/paris_a_50_c-le_rapport-Jc4H.pdf.
The French mainstream media have kept very very quiet about this and it takes the foreign press to report on it. Last summer an emergency exercise took place to see how public and emergency services would cope. All this detailed in the original report.
Air conditioning for the poor…..that’s another version of charity…..but a toxic one. There is nothing worse than AC. To generate cold, not only does it put pressure on a very tired grid, but it also created heat bubbles all around the place.
As to….a heat wave isn’t the end of the world, it was last year the definitive end for 5000 people in France.
I am not going to debate wether there is a climate change or not….it’s just like debating wether God exists or not for a lot of people on this site……..but the measures advocated by the author only make the matter worse.
Paris is the worst text book example. Zinc roofs that turn “ chambre de bonnes “ into ovens and even as I write, architecture protection is paramount. Not green spaces like London and the most densely built cities in Europe at least.
One fact is indisputable……..summers have become hell and people know better moving up to France Normandy beaches or Picardie beaches.
Well, I lied, I did read to the end and yes, nuclear energy is the least polluting when it comes to CO2…..80 % of the total energy produced in France is carbon free……..that doesn’t keep the heat waves from striking.

Last edited 1 year ago by Bruno Lucy
sharaz.gill
sharaz.gill
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruno Lucy

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018313114

This paper is interesting. I haven’t seen anything more recent. But generally, many more people die every year from cold-related causes than heat-related ones. Cold is just more likely to cause a heart attack. If you make energy so expensive (or restrict growth in GDP) such people can’t heat their homes in winter, this will result in many more deaths in the near future.

In short, climate change is real and needs to be addressed, but we need policies that actually save lives, not hysterical reactions such as Net Zero.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  sharaz.gill

In short, climate change is real and needs to be addressed, but we need policies that actually save lives, not hysterical reactions such as Net Zero.

It depends if you want to address the symptoms rather than the root cause.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  sharaz.gill

In short, climate change is real and needs to be addressed, but we need policies that actually save lives, not hysterical reactions such as Net Zero.

It depends if you want to address the symptoms rather than the root cause.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruno Lucy

I worked in Paris in the 2990s. Very cold winters led to tens of thousands of deaths ( as always in Britain, btw), and eviction was forbidden during the winter months.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

?

sharaz.gill
sharaz.gill
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruno Lucy

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412018313114

This paper is interesting. I haven’t seen anything more recent. But generally, many more people die every year from cold-related causes than heat-related ones. Cold is just more likely to cause a heart attack. If you make energy so expensive (or restrict growth in GDP) such people can’t heat their homes in winter, this will result in many more deaths in the near future.

In short, climate change is real and needs to be addressed, but we need policies that actually save lives, not hysterical reactions such as Net Zero.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Bruno Lucy

I worked in Paris in the 2990s. Very cold winters led to tens of thousands of deaths ( as always in Britain, btw), and eviction was forbidden during the winter months.

Bruno Lucy
Bruno Lucy
1 year ago

Sorry….I just couldn’t read this to the end. Talk of negationism !!!
2003….15 000 people died in France, all of heat related problems. Lots of elderlies living alone died…..well…..alone. 7 times as many as in the UK.
To figure out what life in a city like Paris would be like, you can read the short version here.
https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/04/25/paris-could-hit-50-degrees-by-2050-new-report-warns-how-can-the-city-adapt
The original is to be found there ….sadly, in French only.
https://cdn.paris.fr/paris/2023/04/21/paris_a_50_c-le_rapport-Jc4H.pdf.
The French mainstream media have kept very very quiet about this and it takes the foreign press to report on it. Last summer an emergency exercise took place to see how public and emergency services would cope. All this detailed in the original report.
Air conditioning for the poor…..that’s another version of charity…..but a toxic one. There is nothing worse than AC. To generate cold, not only does it put pressure on a very tired grid, but it also created heat bubbles all around the place.
As to….a heat wave isn’t the end of the world, it was last year the definitive end for 5000 people in France.
I am not going to debate wether there is a climate change or not….it’s just like debating wether God exists or not for a lot of people on this site……..but the measures advocated by the author only make the matter worse.
Paris is the worst text book example. Zinc roofs that turn “ chambre de bonnes “ into ovens and even as I write, architecture protection is paramount. Not green spaces like London and the most densely built cities in Europe at least.
One fact is indisputable……..summers have become hell and people know better moving up to France Normandy beaches or Picardie beaches.
Well, I lied, I did read to the end and yes, nuclear energy is the least polluting when it comes to CO2…..80 % of the total energy produced in France is carbon free……..that doesn’t keep the heat waves from striking.

Last edited 1 year ago by Bruno Lucy
Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

I can just hear the waiter in White’s….”would you like your woke, lemming eco sandaloid boiled, fried or baked M’Lord?”….

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

I’m sure that seemed worth posting at the time, for some reason.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

I’m sure that seemed worth posting at the time, for some reason.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

I can just hear the waiter in White’s….”would you like your woke, lemming eco sandaloid boiled, fried or baked M’Lord?”….

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

“Not only is this rhetoric of impending doom hindering the possibility of fixing the problem, it is also engendering all manner of authoritarian fantasies”.
Indeed, and the truth of that statement runs deeper than anything related to climate.
This is well-said too: “This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do anything about climate change; it means that we need to strike the right balance between improving human welfare — which implies more emissions in the short term — and mitigating temperature rises. As long as poverty continues to kill more people than climate change, environmentalists who profess to care about saving the world should think about who they are saving it for”.
Quite a moderate, sensible view, of the type sure to annoy extremists on both sides of the issue. The hard-liner or zealot rejects moderation and consensus as a betrayal of principle, and ends up contributing to more stagnation and polarization. Not that moderates have a great track record of accomplishment, but a cooperative, aisle-crossing approach reduces the threat of rising, overheated seas and of bloodshed both far away and in the front yard. Dynamic centrism…who’s with me?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago

“Not only is this rhetoric of impending doom hindering the possibility of fixing the problem, it is also engendering all manner of authoritarian fantasies”.
Indeed, and the truth of that statement runs deeper than anything related to climate.
This is well-said too: “This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do anything about climate change; it means that we need to strike the right balance between improving human welfare — which implies more emissions in the short term — and mitigating temperature rises. As long as poverty continues to kill more people than climate change, environmentalists who profess to care about saving the world should think about who they are saving it for”.
Quite a moderate, sensible view, of the type sure to annoy extremists on both sides of the issue. The hard-liner or zealot rejects moderation and consensus as a betrayal of principle, and ends up contributing to more stagnation and polarization. Not that moderates have a great track record of accomplishment, but a cooperative, aisle-crossing approach reduces the threat of rising, overheated seas and of bloodshed both far away and in the front yard. Dynamic centrism…who’s with me?

Last edited 1 year ago by AJ Mac
Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago

Thomas is right of course, but so what? Most reasonable people, alone and uninfluenced, when presented with the complete and unbiased facts about climate change and the various proposed remedies along with the associated costs and economic impacts is going to reach a similar conclusion. Humans are good at adapting to a changing environment. That’s why there are so many of us and we’ve spread pretty much everywhere. Doesn’t take a climate scientist or even a particularly bright ten year old to realize that people are going to be better at doing things they have a lot of practice at, and humans as a species have had a lot of practice adapting to different conditions. On the other hand, what the climate change alarmists seem to want is exactly the opposite, for humanity as a whole to control its reproduction and consumption in order to produce certain environmental outcomes and prevent others. This has been attempted many times before without success, and indeed seems so absurd at face value that one wonders how anybody could take it seriously, and why it has become such an issue in the first place. Thomas thus fails when he refuses to name the sources of climate hysteria. Simply claiming its politicians and not scientists are pushing artificial NetZero deadlines is true, but also a cop out. There shouldn’t be a need to argue the simple against the absurd. If there is, the proper question is to ask where the absurdity is coming from and how it exists at all. In short, we should not hesitate to name the enemies who are pushing climate hysteria on a gullible public, that is the super rich, who have good reason to want to preserve the status quo and who will not have to suffer the consequences of their policies (I’ll believe they care about climate change when they scrap their private jets), zealots who substitute environmental crusades for the traditional religious sort with equal fervor and similar results (looking at you Greta), and of course the mega corporations who benefit from massive subsidies for certain technologies and also from the way government regulation consistently restricts competition and favors large firms over small ones.

Steve Jolly
Steve Jolly
1 year ago

Thomas is right of course, but so what? Most reasonable people, alone and uninfluenced, when presented with the complete and unbiased facts about climate change and the various proposed remedies along with the associated costs and economic impacts is going to reach a similar conclusion. Humans are good at adapting to a changing environment. That’s why there are so many of us and we’ve spread pretty much everywhere. Doesn’t take a climate scientist or even a particularly bright ten year old to realize that people are going to be better at doing things they have a lot of practice at, and humans as a species have had a lot of practice adapting to different conditions. On the other hand, what the climate change alarmists seem to want is exactly the opposite, for humanity as a whole to control its reproduction and consumption in order to produce certain environmental outcomes and prevent others. This has been attempted many times before without success, and indeed seems so absurd at face value that one wonders how anybody could take it seriously, and why it has become such an issue in the first place. Thomas thus fails when he refuses to name the sources of climate hysteria. Simply claiming its politicians and not scientists are pushing artificial NetZero deadlines is true, but also a cop out. There shouldn’t be a need to argue the simple against the absurd. If there is, the proper question is to ask where the absurdity is coming from and how it exists at all. In short, we should not hesitate to name the enemies who are pushing climate hysteria on a gullible public, that is the super rich, who have good reason to want to preserve the status quo and who will not have to suffer the consequences of their policies (I’ll believe they care about climate change when they scrap their private jets), zealots who substitute environmental crusades for the traditional religious sort with equal fervor and similar results (looking at you Greta), and of course the mega corporations who benefit from massive subsidies for certain technologies and also from the way government regulation consistently restricts competition and favors large firms over small ones.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Speechless. A Thomas Fazi article I agree with ! Trigger warning: contains much sound common sense.

Peter B
Peter B
1 year ago

Speechless. A Thomas Fazi article I agree with ! Trigger warning: contains much sound common sense.

Mark epperson
Mark epperson
1 year ago

It’s all about the money! The folks who have bet huge sums of bucks /pounds on profiting from “climate change” are running scared and all the money they spent on bent politicians and bureaucrats plus goosing the media is in jeopardy. They don’t give a damn about the people in their own country, much less the poverty stricken of the world. Their goal is not to increase anyone’s quality of life, just theirs. As the old saying goes “there is a sucker born every minute”.

Mark epperson
Mark epperson
1 year ago

It’s all about the money! The folks who have bet huge sums of bucks /pounds on profiting from “climate change” are running scared and all the money they spent on bent politicians and bureaucrats plus goosing the media is in jeopardy. They don’t give a damn about the people in their own country, much less the poverty stricken of the world. Their goal is not to increase anyone’s quality of life, just theirs. As the old saying goes “there is a sucker born every minute”.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

The poor global fossil fuel corporations are being destroyed by a financial elite.
As we all know, theres no money at all in coal, oil and gas- all the BIG money is in being a “so-called” climate scientist. I have given what I can to Saudi Arabia and Exxon, and I suggest that the scientific geniuses here do the same; we cannot let the elites destroy the helpless global industrial corporations.
Please- give whatever you can.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Your tears are precious John. Yes, to see Exxon abused that way is heart-rending, those globalist plutocrats have no compassion.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

‘Thorax’ is a consummate bluffer and should be encouraged to return to Twitter, where he naturally belongs.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

The evil global super-rich elite (Just Stop Oil, so-called ‘scientists’ , that actor who was married to whatshername, etc) are bullying the little folk (global oil corps, OPEC, etc.) and it just isn’t FAIR. Follow the money- there’s no way the money will take you to the most profitable national and multinational corporations- it will take you straight to Greenpeace and the vastly powerful science institutes who’s only desire is, for some reason, to crush the population to death. Or, er, something.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Glad to see you back ’round these parts. I can relax my own part-time campaign of sarcasm and satire–which somehow rarely seems to be a hit with the (Un)Herd–when I know you’re here.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Glad to see you back ’round these parts. I can relax my own part-time campaign of sarcasm and satire–which somehow rarely seems to be a hit with the (Un)Herd–when I know you’re here.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

‘Thorax’ is a consummate bluffer and should be encouraged to return to Twitter, where he naturally belongs.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Ray Andrews

The evil global super-rich elite (Just Stop Oil, so-called ‘scientists’ , that actor who was married to whatshername, etc) are bullying the little folk (global oil corps, OPEC, etc.) and it just isn’t FAIR. Follow the money- there’s no way the money will take you to the most profitable national and multinational corporations- it will take you straight to Greenpeace and the vastly powerful science institutes who’s only desire is, for some reason, to crush the population to death. Or, er, something.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Rather feeble Thorax, back to Twitter with you!

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Your tears are precious John. Yes, to see Exxon abused that way is heart-rending, those globalist plutocrats have no compassion.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Rather feeble Thorax, back to Twitter with you!

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago

The poor global fossil fuel corporations are being destroyed by a financial elite.
As we all know, theres no money at all in coal, oil and gas- all the BIG money is in being a “so-called” climate scientist. I have given what I can to Saudi Arabia and Exxon, and I suggest that the scientific geniuses here do the same; we cannot let the elites destroy the helpless global industrial corporations.
Please- give whatever you can.

Rod McLaughlin
Rod McLaughlin
1 year ago

Thank you
And, everybody, get the book Fossil Future

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago

Some years ago Prof Andrea Sella performed an experiment on TV to prove that carbon dioxide caused global warming. He used an intense light and gun cotton. When the gun cotton was held in the light beam it burst into flames. He then put a tube of carbon dioxide in the beam and repeated the experiment and the gun cotton did not light. He proved exactly the opposite of what he claimed. Carbon dioxide prevents sunlight reaching the surface and therefore keeps us cooler. This is what the atmosphere does in the day when the sun is shining. For more proof look at the moon with no atmosphere. Its daytime temperature reaches around 106C. We would burn to a crisp without the atmosphere. But at night, the atmosphere does exactly the opposite and keeps us warm.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

No. You need to learn about wavelengths – easy to research on line.

An AGW “climate emergency” is the mother of all scams, but you should learn something of the actual science before you jump to erroneous conclusions.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Alan Thorpe

No. You need to learn about wavelengths – easy to research on line.

An AGW “climate emergency” is the mother of all scams, but you should learn something of the actual science before you jump to erroneous conclusions.

Alan Thorpe
Alan Thorpe
1 year ago

Some years ago Prof Andrea Sella performed an experiment on TV to prove that carbon dioxide caused global warming. He used an intense light and gun cotton. When the gun cotton was held in the light beam it burst into flames. He then put a tube of carbon dioxide in the beam and repeated the experiment and the gun cotton did not light. He proved exactly the opposite of what he claimed. Carbon dioxide prevents sunlight reaching the surface and therefore keeps us cooler. This is what the atmosphere does in the day when the sun is shining. For more proof look at the moon with no atmosphere. Its daytime temperature reaches around 106C. We would burn to a crisp without the atmosphere. But at night, the atmosphere does exactly the opposite and keeps us warm.

Steve Hay
Steve Hay
1 year ago

An excellent Article, But I suspect you are going straight to Hell for it. At least if the shocked climate change children and their handlers have any thing to do with it. I have yet to see any of these self appointed “experts” having recognized qualifications in Science or Engineering.
Australia’s noisiest climate change expert is Professor Tim Flannery. A Paleontologist (Bone guy) After his “sky is falling predictions” have failed to materialize. Rumor has it he is busy looking for remains of the dinosaurs Thermal Power stations , that caused their demise.
If your country is short on climate change hysteria, we will be happy to lend him to you to get the ball rolling.

George Scialabba
George Scialabba
1 year ago

This must be one of the annoying articles on the subject I’ve ever read. “Many seem convinced that if we don’t drastically reduce CO2 emissions (or eliminate them altogether) by our unmoveable deadline of 2030, climate change will extinguish humanity, if not all life on Earth.” Does *anyone* believe this, must less “many”? Or again: “nowhere does the science tell us that life on Earth will perish if we don’t go Net Zero by 2030.” Does anyone in the world believe otherwise? Who?
Fazi’s knockdown argument is that reducing emissions in poor countries will hurt the poor. Yes, it will, and a moment’s thought would have produced the answer to this objection: tie increased emissions in poor countries to reductions in rich countries.
Come on, Tom

George Scialabba
George Scialabba
1 year ago

This must be one of the annoying articles on the subject I’ve ever read. “Many seem convinced that if we don’t drastically reduce CO2 emissions (or eliminate them altogether) by our unmoveable deadline of 2030, climate change will extinguish humanity, if not all life on Earth.” Does *anyone* believe this, must less “many”? Or again: “nowhere does the science tell us that life on Earth will perish if we don’t go Net Zero by 2030.” Does anyone in the world believe otherwise? Who?
Fazi’s knockdown argument is that reducing emissions in poor countries will hurt the poor. Yes, it will, and a moment’s thought would have produced the answer to this objection: tie increased emissions in poor countries to reductions in rich countries.
Come on, Tom

Judy Johnson
Judy Johnson
1 year ago

It doesn’t help that a politician of ministerial status is speaking of ULEZ as a policy related to climate change whereas it is, in fact, a health policy related to air quality.

Judy Johnson
Judy Johnson
1 year ago

It doesn’t help that a politician of ministerial status is speaking of ULEZ as a policy related to climate change whereas it is, in fact, a health policy related to air quality.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago

Fazi discusses climate hysteria, yet continually creates a strawman referring to ‘the end of the world’. Climate scientists don’t predict this, what they predict is mass migration, political upheaval and international conflict. These scenarios are very real, especially if the author has accepted that climate change is happening.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

“what they predict is mass migration, political upheaval and international conflict” …but enough about the effects of seven decades of American foreign policy.
Meanwhile populations are increasing in many of the supposedly most vulnerable countries. For instance Bangladesh, where better land management and reducing poverty have increased food security a long way from the devastating floods and famines of the 1970s. The climate may be changing, but so is human innovation and adaption.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Saul D

You’re right, Nigeria also comes to mind. They have had a population explosion – the big risk of course is if these are countries vulnerable to climate change then the impacts could be utterly catastrophic in terms of a perfect storm.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Saul D

You’re right, Nigeria also comes to mind. They have had a population explosion – the big risk of course is if these are countries vulnerable to climate change then the impacts could be utterly catastrophic in terms of a perfect storm.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

But climate scientists remain silent as their data is manipulated and mangled by activists. Has the IPCC said anything about JSO and other fringe groups? Has it approached the foundations and encouraged them to stop finding these groups.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I really don’t know. JSO are sadly misguided with their strategies however, they’d be better off trying to copy how big oil funded the sceptic industry.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

This old trope again. There is no money in climate change skepticism. The big money is in hysteria. What groups is big oil funding and how much?

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Quite right.
There’s no money in fossil fuels. None whatsoever. Zilch. It’s an altruistic activity done by small and powerless idealists in opposition to a cruel and all-powerful “elite”. Saudi Arabia is so poor and powerless it honestly makes me want to cry.
Well done Jim, you really have thought this through. Thank you. Please contribute whatever you can to the poor global fossil fuel industry through my charitable foundation- Help The Oil Industry. Every little helps, as they say.
.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Of course I didn’t say anything of that sort. Big oil is big oil. They will pursue their interests and profits like they always have.

Here are the incomes of some of the major well known groups in 2012 alone.
The Sierra Club took in $97,757,678
The Sierra Club Foundation took in $47,163,599
The Environmental Defense Fund took in $111,915,138
Natural Resources Defense Council $98,701,707
National Audubon Society $96,206,883
National Wildlife Federation $84,726,518
Greenpeace USA $32,791,149
National Parks Conservation Association $25,782,975
The Wilderness Society $24,862,909
Al Gore’s Alliance for Climate Protection $19,150,215
But those are the medium sized incomes, here are the biggies:
The Nature Conservancy $949,132,306
Greenpeace International $406,000,000
Wildlife Conservation Society $230,042,654
World Wildlife Fund $208,495,555

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Of course I didn’t say anything of that sort. Big oil is big oil. They will pursue their interests and profits like they always have.

Here are the incomes of some of the major well known groups in 2012 alone.
The Sierra Club took in $97,757,678
The Sierra Club Foundation took in $47,163,599
The Environmental Defense Fund took in $111,915,138
Natural Resources Defense Council $98,701,707
National Audubon Society $96,206,883
National Wildlife Federation $84,726,518
Greenpeace USA $32,791,149
National Parks Conservation Association $25,782,975
The Wilderness Society $24,862,909
Al Gore’s Alliance for Climate Protection $19,150,215
But those are the medium sized incomes, here are the biggies:
The Nature Conservancy $949,132,306
Greenpeace International $406,000,000
Wildlife Conservation Society $230,042,654
World Wildlife Fund $208,495,555

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

 Thomas G Farmer; John Cook (2013). Climate Change Science: A Modern Synthesis: Volume 1 – The Physical Climate. Springer Science and Business Media. p. 461. ISBN 978-9400757578: “In the decade after the Kyoto Protocol was introduced in 1997, Exxon-Mobil invested more than $20 million in think tanks that promoted climate change denial. This inspired the Royal Society of London to challenge Exxon-Mobil to stop funding organizations that disseminated climate denial”.
Some money in it. Shrieking alarmists have profited too, I admit.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Quite right.
There’s no money in fossil fuels. None whatsoever. Zilch. It’s an altruistic activity done by small and powerless idealists in opposition to a cruel and all-powerful “elite”. Saudi Arabia is so poor and powerless it honestly makes me want to cry.
Well done Jim, you really have thought this through. Thank you. Please contribute whatever you can to the poor global fossil fuel industry through my charitable foundation- Help The Oil Industry. Every little helps, as they say.
.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

 Thomas G Farmer; John Cook (2013). Climate Change Science: A Modern Synthesis: Volume 1 – The Physical Climate. Springer Science and Business Media. p. 461. ISBN 978-9400757578: “In the decade after the Kyoto Protocol was introduced in 1997, Exxon-Mobil invested more than $20 million in think tanks that promoted climate change denial. This inspired the Royal Society of London to challenge Exxon-Mobil to stop funding organizations that disseminated climate denial”.
Some money in it. Shrieking alarmists have profited too, I admit.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

This old trope again. There is no money in climate change skepticism. The big money is in hysteria. What groups is big oil funding and how much?

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I really don’t know. JSO are sadly misguided with their strategies however, they’d be better off trying to copy how big oil funded the sceptic industry.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Your post is delusional. There is no such thing as a “Climate Scientist”, but there are many neo-Marxist lunatics masquerading as such, preaching – yes – the end of the world.

https://twitter.com/ProfMarkMaslin/status/1679880717524692992

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Chortz. The irony.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Please link me to other dribbling internet paranoia blogs- I honestly cannot get enough of them. I really am dumb enough to believe every half-baked conspiracy-theory on the ‘net. Can’t get enough of ’em- more please..

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Come on Thorax, you can do better than that?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Come on Thorax, you can do better than that?

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Chortz. The irony.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  John Sullivan

Please link me to other dribbling internet paranoia blogs- I honestly cannot get enough of them. I really am dumb enough to believe every half-baked conspiracy-theory on the ‘net. Can’t get enough of ’em- more please..

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

“what they predict is mass migration, political upheaval and international conflict” …but enough about the effects of seven decades of American foreign policy.
Meanwhile populations are increasing in many of the supposedly most vulnerable countries. For instance Bangladesh, where better land management and reducing poverty have increased food security a long way from the devastating floods and famines of the 1970s. The climate may be changing, but so is human innovation and adaption.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

But climate scientists remain silent as their data is manipulated and mangled by activists. Has the IPCC said anything about JSO and other fringe groups? Has it approached the foundations and encouraged them to stop finding these groups.

John Sullivan
John Sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Your post is delusional. There is no such thing as a “Climate Scientist”, but there are many neo-Marxist lunatics masquerading as such, preaching – yes – the end of the world.

https://twitter.com/ProfMarkMaslin/status/1679880717524692992

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Robbie K
Robbie K
1 year ago

Fazi discusses climate hysteria, yet continually creates a strawman referring to ‘the end of the world’. Climate scientists don’t predict this, what they predict is mass migration, political upheaval and international conflict. These scenarios are very real, especially if the author has accepted that climate change is happening.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Fazi sits in an air conditioned cafe in Rome. Fazi fiddles while Italy burns. Fazi is able to enjoy cafe life because of air conditioning, but most of residential Europe doesn’t have air conditioning, and should there be a blackout hundreds of people will die, as others died in the last heat wave in Paris. Heatwaves are now the new norm for a large swath of the globe. Air conditioning and refrigeration are what make an otherwise uninhabitable planet habitable. However, they emit hydrofluorocarbons which contribute to global warming………. and so on and so on.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Fazi sits in an air conditioned cafe in Rome. Fazi fiddles while Italy burns. Fazi is able to enjoy cafe life because of air conditioning, but most of residential Europe doesn’t have air conditioning, and should there be a blackout hundreds of people will die, as others died in the last heat wave in Paris. Heatwaves are now the new norm for a large swath of the globe. Air conditioning and refrigeration are what make an otherwise uninhabitable planet habitable. However, they emit hydrofluorocarbons which contribute to global warming………. and so on and so on.

Last edited 1 year ago by Clare Knight
Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

The sad thing is that some intelligent, thoughtful couples are choosing not to bring children into this world, but the religious fanatics will continue to produce litters of babies.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

The sad thing is that some intelligent, thoughtful couples are choosing not to bring children into this world, but the religious fanatics will continue to produce litters of babies.

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
1 year ago

I very much agree with the belief that mass climate hysteria isn’t helping anyone but I don’t think you can criticise apocalyptic climate models by just quoting other models which suit your alternative narrative. Also, I think the people who want to ‘save the planet’ often aren’t thinking primarily about saving humans first and foremost. No judgement either way but I think the argument that climate resilience has a better outcome just doesn’t address the fears of mass extinction of other life on this planet. It might but you have to see the picture in the round. Meanwhile, yes, Italy and other Mediterranean countries are just doing their thing in their usual hottest period. The climate change editorial policy of many media outlets is utterly transparent.

Laura Pritchard
Laura Pritchard
1 year ago

I very much agree with the belief that mass climate hysteria isn’t helping anyone but I don’t think you can criticise apocalyptic climate models by just quoting other models which suit your alternative narrative. Also, I think the people who want to ‘save the planet’ often aren’t thinking primarily about saving humans first and foremost. No judgement either way but I think the argument that climate resilience has a better outcome just doesn’t address the fears of mass extinction of other life on this planet. It might but you have to see the picture in the round. Meanwhile, yes, Italy and other Mediterranean countries are just doing their thing in their usual hottest period. The climate change editorial policy of many media outlets is utterly transparent.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Ah, such touching concern about the poor of the world.
This article in 3 sentences.
We mustn’t be unfair to the poor, who should be allowed to pollute too.Even if we do something, it won’t have much effect.Very important not to get excited – better to do nothing. ————————
The author ignores one of the central truths of change management: never waste a crisis.
If you went into a company board room, with a plan to change the company IT system, and prefaced your plan by saying that the current IT system was generally OK and there was no urgent need for change, then your chance of getting your change plan agreed to or funded are nil.
Saying we need to do something even though everything is largely fine is not how things work.  

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Ah, such touching concern about the poor of the world.
This article in 3 sentences.
We mustn’t be unfair to the poor, who should be allowed to pollute too.Even if we do something, it won’t have much effect.Very important not to get excited – better to do nothing. ————————
The author ignores one of the central truths of change management: never waste a crisis.
If you went into a company board room, with a plan to change the company IT system, and prefaced your plan by saying that the current IT system was generally OK and there was no urgent need for change, then your chance of getting your change plan agreed to or funded are nil.
Saying we need to do something even though everything is largely fine is not how things work.  

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago

Some good points here but Mr. Fazi underestimates climate change as a contributing factor in increased poverty in parts of the world such as sub-Saharan Africa. It’s not a simple choice of poverty reduction or CO2 reduction. They are increasingly interconnected..

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago

Changes in poverty in Sub-Saharan Africa is more complex and climate change is not an obvious contributing factor (absolute poverty globally continues to diminish even as global temperatures increase).
For Sub-Saharan Africa, World Bank reports a modest decline in absolute poverty comparing 2000-2009 to 2010-2019 with a long-term downwards trend, but then saw a reversal during the time of Covid, with current inflationary pressures worldwide having a negative impact on those in the poorest communities in Africa. Rising fuel and fertilizer costs will be more important negative factors than climate issues.
https://www.imf.org/-/media/Files/News/Seminars/2022/high-level-policy-dialogue-on-inequality/Presentations/English/gabriela-inchauste-inequality-in-ssa-eng.ashx

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Saul D

I thought Africa was becoming morev prosperous, in average. As long ago as 2000 , some 40% of the population lived in towns.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

That’s what I said, but perhaps I phrased it badly – though prosperous is a difficult word to use when absolute poverty is still at rates above 35% in Sub Saharan Africa, and suffering more because of the fuel and food inflation that is affecting everyone worldwide.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

Really? Yet Durban of all places recently rejected the Commonwealth Games as “too expensive “.

No Africa has had it or “ Consummatum est” as ‘you know would say’.

We shall be left to pick up the pieces in English Channel.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

That’s what I said, but perhaps I phrased it badly – though prosperous is a difficult word to use when absolute poverty is still at rates above 35% in Sub Saharan Africa, and suffering more because of the fuel and food inflation that is affecting everyone worldwide.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

Really? Yet Durban of all places recently rejected the Commonwealth Games as “too expensive “.

No Africa has had it or “ Consummatum est” as ‘you know would say’.

We shall be left to pick up the pieces in English Channel.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Saul D

I thought Africa was becoming morev prosperous, in average. As long ago as 2000 , some 40% of the population lived in towns.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

How exactly? Show me an impoverished country that has been caused by climate change.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Risk, could happen, in danger of…any answer to Jim Veenbaas?

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Robbie K

Risk, could happen, in danger of…any answer to Jim Veenbaas?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Ireland.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Ireland.

Saul D
Saul D
1 year ago

Changes in poverty in Sub-Saharan Africa is more complex and climate change is not an obvious contributing factor (absolute poverty globally continues to diminish even as global temperatures increase).
For Sub-Saharan Africa, World Bank reports a modest decline in absolute poverty comparing 2000-2009 to 2010-2019 with a long-term downwards trend, but then saw a reversal during the time of Covid, with current inflationary pressures worldwide having a negative impact on those in the poorest communities in Africa. Rising fuel and fertilizer costs will be more important negative factors than climate issues.
https://www.imf.org/-/media/Files/News/Seminars/2022/high-level-policy-dialogue-on-inequality/Presentations/English/gabriela-inchauste-inequality-in-ssa-eng.ashx

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

How exactly? Show me an impoverished country that has been caused by climate change.

Aidan Anabetting
Aidan Anabetting
1 year ago

Some good points here but Mr. Fazi underestimates climate change as a contributing factor in increased poverty in parts of the world such as sub-Saharan Africa. It’s not a simple choice of poverty reduction or CO2 reduction. They are increasingly interconnected..

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
1 year ago

He’s just manufactured a quarrel that isn’t taking place, at least not in the mainstream. Curb fossil fuel use and help people out of poverty and mitigate the effects of heating, drought and flooding. We know life on earth isn’t going to end, but mass migration and global instability will hugely increase unless we do something about it. Another Fazi special.

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

Mass migration will increase because of flooding?
Should people in low-lying countries like the Netherlands and East Anglia migrate to higher countries like Afghanistan and Rwanda?

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Dumb question

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Probably not, no- for several obvious reasons.
But if the Netherlands are inundated, the population will have to go somewhere- why you think it should be Rwanda, I have no idea. I’m sure you’ve carefully thought this through.
More to the point, the population of Pakistan will have to find somewhere before that. Where do you suggest- East Anglia?
So what, exactly, was your point?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Are you flagging everything on your inauspicious return, Thorax old chap?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Who the hell is Thorax?

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Who the hell is Thorax?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Are you flagging everything on your inauspicious return, Thorax old chap?

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Dumb question

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Steven Carr

Probably not, no- for several obvious reasons.
But if the Netherlands are inundated, the population will have to go somewhere- why you think it should be Rwanda, I have no idea. I’m sure you’ve carefully thought this through.
More to the point, the population of Pakistan will have to find somewhere before that. Where do you suggest- East Anglia?
So what, exactly, was your point?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

What mass migration in the last 30 years has been caused by climate change? Is it even possible to identify a single crop that has experienced negative yield growth?

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Read my post. I said it was coming

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

They’ve literally been saying this for 35 years.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

And here it is.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

And here is what? Global food yields have not decreased in the last five years.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

And here is what? Global food yields have not decreased in the last five years.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

And here it is.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

They’ve literally been saying this for 35 years.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Water will be the first big issue. Our populations are based on the previous few centuries of water availability. This is changing rapidly (note; the last “thirty years” isn’t a useful guide to rapid change, funnily enough).

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Are you flagging everything on your inauspicious return Thorax old chap?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Water should not be an issue for any country in the world. Desalination is a well understood technology. I would argue that draining the water table in the US is a bigger, more looming issue than climate change.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It’s not either or.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Of course not. I actually have no issue with reducing CO2. What we are doing today is an incoherent waste of tax dollars that will make everyone poorer. If the west was building a fleet of nuclear power plants, I would be perfectly happy with that. But we’re not doing that. We’re wasting money on unreliable and intermittent wind and solar.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Clare Knight

Of course not. I actually have no issue with reducing CO2. What we are doing today is an incoherent waste of tax dollars that will make everyone poorer. If the west was building a fleet of nuclear power plants, I would be perfectly happy with that. But we’re not doing that. We’re wasting money on unreliable and intermittent wind and solar.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

It’s not either or.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Are you flagging everything on your inauspicious return Thorax old chap?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Water should not be an issue for any country in the world. Desalination is a well understood technology. I would argue that draining the water table in the US is a bigger, more looming issue than climate change.

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Read my post. I said it was coming

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Water will be the first big issue. Our populations are based on the previous few centuries of water availability. This is changing rapidly (note; the last “thirty years” isn’t a useful guide to rapid change, funnily enough).

Steven Carr
Steven Carr
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

Mass migration will increase because of flooding?
Should people in low-lying countries like the Netherlands and East Anglia migrate to higher countries like Afghanistan and Rwanda?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Doug Mccaully

What mass migration in the last 30 years has been caused by climate change? Is it even possible to identify a single crop that has experienced negative yield growth?

Doug Mccaully
Doug Mccaully
1 year ago

He’s just manufactured a quarrel that isn’t taking place, at least not in the mainstream. Curb fossil fuel use and help people out of poverty and mitigate the effects of heating, drought and flooding. We know life on earth isn’t going to end, but mass migration and global instability will hugely increase unless we do something about it. Another Fazi special.

Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago

To all the sceptics here….you are wrong. Climate change isn’t a hoax. Consider the people who have most to lose from climate change commercially. These include the big oil companies who are exposed to fossil fuels as stranded assets and Middle Eastern countries whose enormouth wealth depends on fossil fuels. If it was a hoax then you would think that these groups and contries would be eager to demonstrate this wouldn’t you? They could employ thousands of scientists to do this, and create their own universities to show that climate change was a scam.
I wonder why they haven’t done this? Indeed, the Saudi crown prince recently said “As a leading global oil producer, we are fully aware of our responsibility in advancing the fight against the climate crisis…”
Funny sort of hoax!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

Why do fossil fuel
Producers need to do any of this? Consumption hasn’t dropped at all in the last 20 years. It still accounts for 82% of all energy production?

Whilst some people think climate change is a hoax, most people don’t – even on this site. And there are plenty of legit scientists who dispute climate change hysteria. You just never hear from them in the regime media.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So far on this comment site, the “plenty of legit scientists who dispute climate change hysteria” have been a standard regurgitation of same small handful of fringe, political ranters that have been thrown up since the ’90’s. Mostly Free-market political campaigners and religious fundamentalists; the idiotic trope, of course, is to promote a few scientific outliers as “real scientists”, as opposed to “so-called (Marxist) scientists” without the slightest attempt to define or scientifically justify why these few heroes of the ‘net are right, and the vast majority of scientists are wrong.
To do this, of course, would require some genuine scientific understanding. This isn’t something the Unherd herd are either interested in, or capable of.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Return to Twitter Thorax where they may appreciate your patronising nonsense.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

He said in a patronizing tone.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

He said in a patronizing tone.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  John Holland

Return to Twitter Thorax where they may appreciate your patronising nonsense.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I hope you are right that the hoaxers are not a majority here. Outright denial posts instantly garner a lot of upvotes though. You don’t engage with the documentation that shows oil companies spending millions on pseudo-scientific propaganda and spin campaigns. Look at ExxonMobil in particular. Without their lawyering-up and clouding of the data, there would be stronger eco-protective rules and fossil-fuel consumption would be much lower, at least in proportional terms.

John Holland
John Holland
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So far on this comment site, the “plenty of legit scientists who dispute climate change hysteria” have been a standard regurgitation of same small handful of fringe, political ranters that have been thrown up since the ’90’s. Mostly Free-market political campaigners and religious fundamentalists; the idiotic trope, of course, is to promote a few scientific outliers as “real scientists”, as opposed to “so-called (Marxist) scientists” without the slightest attempt to define or scientifically justify why these few heroes of the ‘net are right, and the vast majority of scientists are wrong.
To do this, of course, would require some genuine scientific understanding. This isn’t something the Unherd herd are either interested in, or capable of.

AJ Mac
AJ Mac
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

I hope you are right that the hoaxers are not a majority here. Outright denial posts instantly garner a lot of upvotes though. You don’t engage with the documentation that shows oil companies spending millions on pseudo-scientific propaganda and spin campaigns. Look at ExxonMobil in particular. Without their lawyering-up and clouding of the data, there would be stronger eco-protective rules and fossil-fuel consumption would be much lower, at least in proportional terms.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Well said.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

Why do fossil fuel
Producers need to do any of this? Consumption hasn’t dropped at all in the last 20 years. It still accounts for 82% of all energy production?

Whilst some people think climate change is a hoax, most people don’t – even on this site. And there are plenty of legit scientists who dispute climate change hysteria. You just never hear from them in the regime media.

Clare Knight
Clare Knight
1 year ago

Well said.

Stephan Harrison
Stephan Harrison
1 year ago

To all the sceptics here….you are wrong. Climate change isn’t a hoax. Consider the people who have most to lose from climate change commercially. These include the big oil companies who are exposed to fossil fuels as stranded assets and Middle Eastern countries whose enormouth wealth depends on fossil fuels. If it was a hoax then you would think that these groups and contries would be eager to demonstrate this wouldn’t you? They could employ thousands of scientists to do this, and create their own universities to show that climate change was a scam.
I wonder why they haven’t done this? Indeed, the Saudi crown prince recently said “As a leading global oil producer, we are fully aware of our responsibility in advancing the fight against the climate crisis…”
Funny sort of hoax!

Fred Oakley
Fred Oakley
1 year ago

Placid drivel.

Fred Oakley
Fred Oakley
1 year ago

Placid drivel.

R H van der Gaag
R H van der Gaag
1 year ago

The first thing that should be done now is solar radiation modification (SRM; mitigation would be a better term). The thermostat is right there; we can turn down the heat for a few billion euros a year, making far costlier adaptations unnecessary. The effect will be felt short term. Yes, there are risks, but they are worth taking. Read up on it. Eventually, this will be done, anyway, because all other measures, both of the adaptive and the reducing emissions type, will yield results too slowly. It is better to do this now and save millions of lives and trillions of euros. Needless to say, we should still reduce emissions even when routinely spraying the stratosphere with salt crystals or chalk particles. SRM will buy us time to do so.

Last edited 1 year ago by R H van der Gaag
Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago

Yeah, great idea, block the sun.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago

Yeah, great idea, block the sun.

R H van der Gaag
R H van der Gaag
1 year ago

The first thing that should be done now is solar radiation modification (SRM; mitigation would be a better term). The thermostat is right there; we can turn down the heat for a few billion euros a year, making far costlier adaptations unnecessary. The effect will be felt short term. Yes, there are risks, but they are worth taking. Read up on it. Eventually, this will be done, anyway, because all other measures, both of the adaptive and the reducing emissions type, will yield results too slowly. It is better to do this now and save millions of lives and trillions of euros. Needless to say, we should still reduce emissions even when routinely spraying the stratosphere with salt crystals or chalk particles. SRM will buy us time to do so.

Last edited 1 year ago by R H van der Gaag