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This woman is too hot but also not hot enough. (Barbie/IMDB)
Exactly how old is Barbie, anyway? I speak not of Barbie the product — though her birth in 1959 is a fascinating story — but Barbie the person, the character, the entity who exists in undying hot pink perpetuity, in another dimension, “Barbie World”.
Whatever age she’s permanently frozen at, she’s quite the achiever. A by-no-means complete list of her professions includes doctor, lifeguard, news anchor. She’s been both ballerina and ballet teacher. She’s served in every branch of the US military and as a cashier at various fast-food franchises. She’s even run for president — four times.
So, she’s young enough to work the menial jobs we associate with teenagers, but old enough to hold the country’s highest office (for which eligibility begins at 35). Barbie’s age is like her identity, then: infinitely malleable, and entirely dependent on how she’s accessorised. Nor is she constrained by class or education. When it comes to the milestones of adult life, she achieves some of them with ease (a Dream House), while lingering permanently on the threshold of others (marriage, children).
The only thing that doesn’t change is her silhouette. The classic Barbie always looks exactly the same: wasp waist, lifted heels, improbably huge plastic breasts.
But what’s most interesting about Barbie is how, in being unconstrained — not just by age, class, or education, but by adult trappings like marriage and children — she embodies the paradoxes of an entire generation of women. Like Barbie, the Archetypal Millennial is both wildly accomplished yet developmentally trapped in perpetual adolescence: she dates less, marries later, and has fewer children, if she has them at all. Like Barbie, she lives in a world where women eclipse men on so many fronts that the latter become an afterthought, their comparative underachievement something between a punchline and a national crisis. And like Barbie, she is expected to be not just hot, but hot in perpetuity, in a way that previous generations were not — if only because the means to achieve it were not yet widely accessible.
Millennial women’s entry into middle age has run in parallel to a veritable revolution in the business of appearance management — one characterised by low-cost Botox, ten-step skincare regimens, and those Instagram photo filters that make you look not just ageless but eerily smooth, something between a Pixar cartoon and a baby. Two things are true: that the past decade has given birth to a highly visible movement advocating body positivity and acceptance, and also, that the aspirations of women throughout Western society suggest that none of them actually believe in it. With enough time, effort and money, it is now possible for a committed woman to be hot virtually indefinitely; it is also increasingly understood that ambitious women probably should make this commitment, investing in their own faces for the same reasons that they pay into a pension.
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SubscribeWait, in the author’s telling, men are supposed to be “retaliating” against women who “out-achieve” them (whatever that means; better grades in school I suppose?) by telling women that their “true value to society is youth and fertility”?
But haven’t we men always “said” this (at least in no small part) through our actions? Long before this (hazy) notion of women “out-achieving men” appeared. Or to put it another way: what qualities in a woman are more desirable to a man than youth and fertility? And does this arrangement not benefit society as a whole?
And, if it is supposed to be “mythological” that women’s sex appeal greatly diminishes after the age of, say, 25, well, a “myth” implies that it has existed for a long time–so, long before any claim emerged that women are “out-achieving men”. And so this “myth” can hardly be considered a male “retaliation” to a recent development between the sexes. Doesn’t it have a longstanding basis in reality? Or am I blinded by my own male chauvinism?
I’d say you have effectively destroyed the author’s narrative.
She also says women can stay hot forever. This is ridiculously untrue of both women and men. Most human beings never achieve it in the first place.
I’m not sure she says that.(That she says women can stay hot forever) This is, however, one of the messages of modern marketing. “Buy our products. You will stay young (hot) forever.” The message pervades the culture, which is superficial anyways and appeals to people with superficial values.
Isn’t this what Brave New World was, though? Stay young till you die… and then you die.
In The Dancer Upstairs (directed by John Malkovich) the wife of Javier Bardem spends a lot of time thinking about what kind of nose she should have…
Have you seen what has been populating TV advertising?
I thought the message of modern marketing was even if you are ugly, obese and old you are still hot and should flaunt it.
Do you mean only “ugly. obese and old women”, or men as well?
Do you mean only “ugly. obese and old women”, or men as well?
Have you seen what has been populating TV advertising?
I thought the message of modern marketing was even if you are ugly, obese and old you are still hot and should flaunt it.
“Hot” as in deserving of men’s ogling? F*ck that!
As if that’s the only privilege enjoyed by attractive women.
As if that’s the only privilege enjoyed by attractive women.
Speaking of hot, I was in transit in a manilla mall two weeks ago. I was pondering a photo of one of my dead simmental cows my son sent me a pic. My beautiful fillipina wife and my monster 14 son marched me into a small shop staffed by a young handsome morrocan jew and a bevy of very pushy fillipino girls..they applied an ointment under my eyesore bags and told me how much younger it made me look (I’m 58 haha)..with my mind on my dead rotting cow, my impatience was growing quick…dad buy it..it’s so good. Argh yeah whatever..how much for this little tube? Usd $950.00! Can’t wait to get back to me cattle tbh..
I’m not sure she says that.(That she says women can stay hot forever) This is, however, one of the messages of modern marketing. “Buy our products. You will stay young (hot) forever.” The message pervades the culture, which is superficial anyways and appeals to people with superficial values.
Isn’t this what Brave New World was, though? Stay young till you die… and then you die.
In The Dancer Upstairs (directed by John Malkovich) the wife of Javier Bardem spends a lot of time thinking about what kind of nose she should have…
“Hot” as in deserving of men’s ogling? F*ck that!
Speaking of hot, I was in transit in a manilla mall two weeks ago. I was pondering a photo of one of my dead simmental cows my son sent me a pic. My beautiful fillipina wife and my monster 14 son marched me into a small shop staffed by a young handsome morrocan jew and a bevy of very pushy fillipino girls..they applied an ointment under my eyesore bags and told me how much younger it made me look (I’m 58 haha)..with my mind on my dead rotting cow, my impatience was growing quick…dad buy it..it’s so good. Argh yeah whatever..how much for this little tube? Usd $950.00! Can’t wait to get back to me cattle tbh..
I’d say you have effectively destroyed the author’s narrative.
She also says women can stay hot forever. This is ridiculously untrue of both women and men. Most human beings never achieve it in the first place.
Wait, in the author’s telling, men are supposed to be “retaliating” against women who “out-achieve” them (whatever that means; better grades in school I suppose?) by telling women that their “true value to society is youth and fertility”?
But haven’t we men always “said” this (at least in no small part) through our actions? Long before this (hazy) notion of women “out-achieving men” appeared. Or to put it another way: what qualities in a woman are more desirable to a man than youth and fertility? And does this arrangement not benefit society as a whole?
And, if it is supposed to be “mythological” that women’s sex appeal greatly diminishes after the age of, say, 25, well, a “myth” implies that it has existed for a long time–so, long before any claim emerged that women are “out-achieving men”. And so this “myth” can hardly be considered a male “retaliation” to a recent development between the sexes. Doesn’t it have a longstanding basis in reality? Or am I blinded by my own male chauvinism?
It seems women never entirely stop playing with dolls. Inventing lives as avatars for themselves, agonising over their decisions, endlessly musing over narcissistic froth.
Under achieving men, meanwhile, are keeping the lights on, roads working and providing them with the technology to agonise more publicly.
A ludicrous overstatement but this drivel just irritated me this morning.
Not ludicrous at all – it had the same effect on me. I’d have to be bound and clamped with eyes pried open like Alex Delarge to sit through this confection; the Pepto-Bismol pink alone is ironically nausea-inducing. As it is I’m irked that I bothered to read this article taking it seriously. “Fight Club” for girls, my *ss (although after this thing bombs there may be those who will intone: “Her name was Margot Robbie”).
Bravo! Indeed nausea inducing drivel. What the author doesn’t understand about men is that “achievement” is defined as providing for a wife and family. Women who are “out achieving them” are thus worthless beyond a Tinder date. Whatever the female author says, women have expiration dates because there’s always a fresh crop of younger, more fertile ladies for men of acceptable means and status. They ultimately find that this mirage of “achievement” is fleeting and hollow for women and men alike. The difference is that men can always find a younger model to impregnate. That’ll be blamed on the “patriarchy”.
There’s something creepy about that comment, John.
John “Crotcheau”‘s comment is not only creepy but vomit-inducing.
Thanks for the laugh, Danielle!
Thanks for the laugh, Danielle!
John “Crotcheau”‘s comment is not only creepy but vomit-inducing.
There’s something creepy about that comment, John.
Many of us heterosexual women never played with dolls or had any interest in them.
Many of us heterosexual women don’t give a toss about being “hot” either. Hot as in defined by the porn industry I suppose…
Many of us heterosexual women don’t give a toss about being “hot” either. Hot as in defined by the porn industry I suppose…
You can’t win…
Not ludicrous at all – it had the same effect on me. I’d have to be bound and clamped with eyes pried open like Alex Delarge to sit through this confection; the Pepto-Bismol pink alone is ironically nausea-inducing. As it is I’m irked that I bothered to read this article taking it seriously. “Fight Club” for girls, my *ss (although after this thing bombs there may be those who will intone: “Her name was Margot Robbie”).
Bravo! Indeed nausea inducing drivel. What the author doesn’t understand about men is that “achievement” is defined as providing for a wife and family. Women who are “out achieving them” are thus worthless beyond a Tinder date. Whatever the female author says, women have expiration dates because there’s always a fresh crop of younger, more fertile ladies for men of acceptable means and status. They ultimately find that this mirage of “achievement” is fleeting and hollow for women and men alike. The difference is that men can always find a younger model to impregnate. That’ll be blamed on the “patriarchy”.
Many of us heterosexual women never played with dolls or had any interest in them.
You can’t win…
It seems women never entirely stop playing with dolls. Inventing lives as avatars for themselves, agonising over their decisions, endlessly musing over narcissistic froth.
Under achieving men, meanwhile, are keeping the lights on, roads working and providing them with the technology to agonise more publicly.
A ludicrous overstatement but this drivel just irritated me this morning.
“Barbie” (the movie) is indeed a meta-narrative established by the now-completely dominant Matriarchal Hierarchy that seems to be screaming at the sky in despair: A world “made” by and for women and in which women have it all. And yet it’s still some auto-generated b*tchy man’s fault that the woman’s appearance is being judged by other (maybe younger) women and that she’s still not happy with her life.
In real life, I’ve found that men are commonly an afterthought when it comes to the glaring spotlight that women shine on each other’s blemishes.
“he negging came, of course, from a bunch of internet Kens: men who, figuratively speaking, clearly have naught but a modest plastic bulge where their manhood should be.”
One day man will be able to write a sentence about woman like this
Do you mean transwomen?
Perhaps the more pertinent question is whether it’s a question of ability or a question of desire to write such a sentence…which returns to the point of my post above. 🙂
Do you mean transwomen?
Perhaps the more pertinent question is whether it’s a question of ability or a question of desire to write such a sentence…which returns to the point of my post above. 🙂
Spot on. And though we may be sceptical about this, almost all of them claim they dress not for men, but for themselves.
I think not. I’d say for men and other women.
Agreement!
I would say it is to attract attention from men (often for validation more than anything serious) along with status and belonging amongst women. Women’s clothes tend to communicate either a sexual display (through emphasis of body parts) status through price, and group membership through style. The last is often done negatively. Items are avoided which are associated with women of lower social status (even if they were ok last year).
there is a shift of emphasis from sexuality to status as women age – assuming they have the means.
Perhaps more a shift from sexuality to intelligence and intellect. Not being hormone driven does leave one more time for other things.
You’re being optimistic Clare. Cod spirituality perhaps. But we were talking about display rather than substance.
You’re being optimistic Clare. Cod spirituality perhaps. But we were talking about display rather than substance.
Perhaps more a shift from sexuality to intelligence and intellect. Not being hormone driven does leave one more time for other things.
Claire, I’d say first for their reflection in the mirror…
Ah yes, Danielle, so very true………….
“The best slave does not need to be beaten
she beats herself,
not with a leather whip or a blackjack or billyclub,
but with the fine whip of her own tongue
and the subtle beating of her mind against her mind.
For who can hate her half so well
as she hates herself?
And who can match the finesse of her self- abuse?
Years of training are required for this
Twenty years of subtle self- indulgence, self- denial
until the subject thinks herself a queen,
and yet a beggar, both at the same time.
She must doubt herself
in everything but love.
She must never go out of the house unless veiled in paint
she must wear tight shoes
so she always remembers her bondage.
She must feel lost as a dog without her master
She must refer all moral questions to her mirror………..”
Part of a poem by Erica Jong called
‘Alceltis on the poetry Circuit’.
Ah yes, Danielle, so very true………….
“The best slave does not need to be beaten
she beats herself,
not with a leather whip or a blackjack or billyclub,
but with the fine whip of her own tongue
and the subtle beating of her mind against her mind.
For who can hate her half so well
as she hates herself?
And who can match the finesse of her self- abuse?
Years of training are required for this
Twenty years of subtle self- indulgence, self- denial
until the subject thinks herself a queen,
and yet a beggar, both at the same time.
She must doubt herself
in everything but love.
She must never go out of the house unless veiled in paint
she must wear tight shoes
so she always remembers her bondage.
She must feel lost as a dog without her master
She must refer all moral questions to her mirror………..”
Part of a poem by Erica Jong called
‘Alceltis on the poetry Circuit’.
Agreement!
I would say it is to attract attention from men (often for validation more than anything serious) along with status and belonging amongst women. Women’s clothes tend to communicate either a sexual display (through emphasis of body parts) status through price, and group membership through style. The last is often done negatively. Items are avoided which are associated with women of lower social status (even if they were ok last year).
there is a shift of emphasis from sexuality to status as women age – assuming they have the means.
Claire, I’d say first for their reflection in the mirror…
I think not. I’d say for men and other women.
Wild night is calling
And all the girls walk by
Dressed up for each other
And the boys do the boogie-woogie
On the corner of the street And the people, passin’ by
Stare in wild wonder
“he negging came, of course, from a bunch of internet Kens: men who, figuratively speaking, clearly have naught but a modest plastic bulge where their manhood should be.”
One day man will be able to write a sentence about woman like this
Spot on. And though we may be sceptical about this, almost all of them claim they dress not for men, but for themselves.
Wild night is calling
And all the girls walk by
Dressed up for each other
And the boys do the boogie-woogie
On the corner of the street And the people, passin’ by
Stare in wild wonder
“Barbie” (the movie) is indeed a meta-narrative established by the now-completely dominant Matriarchal Hierarchy that seems to be screaming at the sky in despair: A world “made” by and for women and in which women have it all. And yet it’s still some auto-generated b*tchy man’s fault that the woman’s appearance is being judged by other (maybe younger) women and that she’s still not happy with her life.
In real life, I’ve found that men are commonly an afterthought when it comes to the glaring spotlight that women shine on each other’s blemishes.
Does anyone recognise the world Ms Rosenfield describes, where female doctors, lawyers, scientists, polticians, chief executives are facing some overwhelming social pressure from men to keep young and beautiful if they are to regarded as having any worth?
I suppose as women in the professions and business are spreading rapidy and in some cases, as the author recognises, surpassing men in numbers, it gets harder for feminists to maintain the fiction of the “Patriarcy” all us men supposedly secretly belong to, where we conspire to exclude women from good jobs. Well paid feminist grievance mongers need to find a new axe to grind, and here we have it: women in top jobs lack worth because the insidious “Patriarcy” has made it so their accomplishments are unrecognised unless they maintain youth and beauty.
Aside from the desperate, grievance mongering, feminist fiddle faddle, there is a distinct hint of narcissism in the piece. Curious about the author I viewed some interviews she has done. At 41 she hasn’t got a wrinkle on her face and her eyebrows are resolutely stationary. In fact she seems to bear striking similarities to the youth chasing, trying to be hot woman she suggests is common among female professionals, but is in fact as real as Barbie World. In the real world professional women just get up every morning and get on with their jobs. If they are good at them they are valued and respected: no Botox required.
I work with a lady who regularly gets fillers and Botox injections. She comes in covered in bruises and I question her everytime if she has taken a beating. It’s really not a good look and if not growing old gracefully means looking like a DV victim, I’d rather stick to my wrinkles and laughter lines. I also think Madonna looks weird and is a poor advertisement for fighting aging.
Madonna is a contradiction. She doesn’t seem to be living up to what she seemed to always tout……..be strong and free. Instead she is a slave to fashion.
I think perhaps we all bought into the “Madonna as feminist icon” myth.
Indeed, a material girl if I may be so bold.
I think perhaps we all bought into the “Madonna as feminist icon” myth.
Indeed, a material girl if I may be so bold.
I have an acquaintance who suffered an adverse reaction to a neck lift. She told me she almost died but would do it again because look at her neck.
Madonna is a contradiction. She doesn’t seem to be living up to what she seemed to always tout……..be strong and free. Instead she is a slave to fashion.
I have an acquaintance who suffered an adverse reaction to a neck lift. She told me she almost died but would do it again because look at her neck.
I read one of her earlier articles about essentially anti-ageing and having no idea who this woman was so I watched a couple of her U Tube offerings. Her preoccupation with self, appearance, and ageing oozes out of the screen. It infiltrates her overthinking the movie. You can see her thinking she is both clever and attractive as if this was a new script for women. For her, it’s her grown-up toy to be able to have some work done and then parade it. That she communicates a self regarding image means in the end she is not very clever.
Great women have always been effortless in combining style, mind and attractiveness, the latter of which is more interesting to men as opposed to adolescent (…ability) I will not use the word she uses. That itself lacks any class. I can imagine her being one of those tiresome people who go to a restaurant and make a video of the waiter decanting the wine.
Yes, actually I do. It is yet another iteration of the culture of blame that his taken deep root. I bear little to no responsibility for who I am or what I do or why. It is my parent’s poor parenting. It is my genetic make up. It’s a disease, not choices. It is unrealized white privilege. It is toxic masculinity. It is triggering hate speech. I was born in the wrong body. I was born the wrong skin color. I was born the wrong gender. It is the government’s failure to protect me from the consequences of my choices. And now this: I am subject to the objectification of all men everywhere who want me to be something impossible for anyone to be. It is everyone’s fault, but not mine.
Well said.
I work with a lady who regularly gets fillers and Botox injections. She comes in covered in bruises and I question her everytime if she has taken a beating. It’s really not a good look and if not growing old gracefully means looking like a DV victim, I’d rather stick to my wrinkles and laughter lines. I also think Madonna looks weird and is a poor advertisement for fighting aging.
I read one of her earlier articles about essentially anti-ageing and having no idea who this woman was so I watched a couple of her U Tube offerings. Her preoccupation with self, appearance, and ageing oozes out of the screen. It infiltrates her overthinking the movie. You can see her thinking she is both clever and attractive as if this was a new script for women. For her, it’s her grown-up toy to be able to have some work done and then parade it. That she communicates a self regarding image means in the end she is not very clever.
Great women have always been effortless in combining style, mind and attractiveness, the latter of which is more interesting to men as opposed to adolescent (…ability) I will not use the word she uses. That itself lacks any class. I can imagine her being one of those tiresome people who go to a restaurant and make a video of the waiter decanting the wine.
Yes, actually I do. It is yet another iteration of the culture of blame that his taken deep root. I bear little to no responsibility for who I am or what I do or why. It is my parent’s poor parenting. It is my genetic make up. It’s a disease, not choices. It is unrealized white privilege. It is toxic masculinity. It is triggering hate speech. I was born in the wrong body. I was born the wrong skin color. I was born the wrong gender. It is the government’s failure to protect me from the consequences of my choices. And now this: I am subject to the objectification of all men everywhere who want me to be something impossible for anyone to be. It is everyone’s fault, but not mine.
Well said.
Does anyone recognise the world Ms Rosenfield describes, where female doctors, lawyers, scientists, polticians, chief executives are facing some overwhelming social pressure from men to keep young and beautiful if they are to regarded as having any worth?
I suppose as women in the professions and business are spreading rapidy and in some cases, as the author recognises, surpassing men in numbers, it gets harder for feminists to maintain the fiction of the “Patriarcy” all us men supposedly secretly belong to, where we conspire to exclude women from good jobs. Well paid feminist grievance mongers need to find a new axe to grind, and here we have it: women in top jobs lack worth because the insidious “Patriarcy” has made it so their accomplishments are unrecognised unless they maintain youth and beauty.
Aside from the desperate, grievance mongering, feminist fiddle faddle, there is a distinct hint of narcissism in the piece. Curious about the author I viewed some interviews she has done. At 41 she hasn’t got a wrinkle on her face and her eyebrows are resolutely stationary. In fact she seems to bear striking similarities to the youth chasing, trying to be hot woman she suggests is common among female professionals, but is in fact as real as Barbie World. In the real world professional women just get up every morning and get on with their jobs. If they are good at them they are valued and respected: no Botox required.
Interesting article, and the only time I have engaged with this current Barbie discussion.
But just like with Barbie dolls when we were kids, I’m on the outside, looking in. I don’t relate, I just don’t get the relationship to the entire phenomenon.
I never had a Barbie: Barbie appalled me. I had a Jem: a rockstar who had male backing singers (The Misfits). I played with my sister’s tired old Sindy doll for whom my lovely Nana had knitted tiny clothes – even a handbag with a sequin button. And I thought my She-Ra doll was FANTASTIC.
But the way other girls obsessed on Barbie – that was another world. It still is. As a 41 year old millennial, she has zero relevance to how I see myself or how I think about female empowerment.
Perhaps it’s because I was never really the one that men would run towards like bees to a honey pot, but I don’t really get any of this “oh no, I’m no longer f*able!” rhetoric. If you were never really f*able, then getting older becomes a hell of a lot easier.
Hitting my 40s has been a massive liberation. I just don’t have the energy to be obsessing about fighting to be taken seriously in the office alongside the men, or about how women are still trying to smash the glass ceiling, or about whether the patriarchy is still a thing, or about how the country where I live (Austria) is at least a generation behind the rest of the western world when it comes to gender roles and how frustrating that is for women sometimes…or about how women are often their own worst enemies.
I can’t be bothered with any of it any more. I have my business, I do my thing, I get stuff done, I make my decisions and accept the consequences.
All of my female millennial friends are the same. We are no longer have the revolutionary zeal we once had; we know what we like, what we want, how to filter out the BS from our lives. And we realise that there are some things and some attitudes that are going to need longer to change. But we’ve done our bit. And that’s OK. Over to Gen Z.
A friend is dating an Austrian woman in her 40s. She describes Austria as very sexist compared to, say, Scandinavia or the UK. However, she did mention Austria is a bastion of progressive feminism compared to Italy. I know I shouldn’t be surprised.
It is backwards. The men my age have attitudes like my dad. There is a reason I’ve ended up with a Luxembourger…northern Europeans are at the same stage of development on that front.
I hated dating Austrian guys. The ones I dated were all very different in terms of their personalities, but were all the same in one respect: their attitude to relationships was “I, man, say ‘jump!’ You, woman, say ‘how high?'” My God, it was tiresome.
The younger ones don’t seem to be much better. I was at a networking event the other week and talked to a very charming, very driven young man in charge of quite an exciting new startup. I was happy to talk about his business idea, give feedback and also suggested how I could help with my services. He emailed me back the next day, saying it was nice to meet me – and would I be so kind to do X, Y and Z for him (free of charge and out of the goodness of my own heart).
Buddy, I was being friendly and trying to grow my business. I am NOT your secretary. Again, this is something that ALL my female friends in Austria have a story about.
A friend is a corporate lawyer in Florence. She says she is always asked to make coffee when she walks into a meeting room with Italians. I just checked my calendar. It’s 2023.
That is about the size of it, yes. Although I have to say: in those situations, so many women just want to please and not rock the boat. The only way it will change is if we start saying “no”. It’s tough and also risky…but if you carry on acting like the secretary – don’t be surprised if you still get treated like one.
I think you’re the one that’s backwards, What’s wrong with gender roles? Women are more miserable and weaker now in feminist “empowerment”. Enslaving themselves to a career. Waiting so long to have childen it’s a geriatric pregnancy.
It is right a man should expect their partner to do things for them, just as they would do things for their woman. Austrian men are good men.
Women have made an incredible misplay, tricked into pursing soulless careers by business elites and politicians trying to lower their wages and bump up the gdp numbers. Women now are barely able to even defend their identity.
Our grandfathers fought and sacrificed for their families, the current man questions even paying for a date with a woman.
Oh goodness, I never met anyone from the 1800s before! Enchantée!
I’m sure there’s a museum somewhere that would love to have you as an exhibit.
I take that as a compliment, the 1800s was a golden age. An age where men were men, where we built the modern world and we where didn’t obsess about what’s in our pants.
I take that as a compliment, the 1800s was a golden age. An age where men were men, where we built the modern world and we where didn’t obsess about what’s in our pants.
Sam, you’re embarrassing, buddy. It’s one thing to advocate gender roles in private relationships at home. It’s another to suggest subordinate roles for professional women. As an American, I have lived in the Netherlands and France, and travelled extensively on business in Germany, Austria, and Italy. Traditional gender roles in the workplace are tiresome and self-emasculating. Women love strong men who allow them to flourish and realize their potential as equals using their own feminine powers. They are drawn like flies to the flame. You, Sam, not so much. Maybe that’s your problem.
“Realize their potential as equals?”
I think its you who consider women inferior.
I think women should become empowered mothers rather than corporate slaves.
“Flies to the flame” Exactly, you are the flame, corporations consume these women.
You’re telling them what you think they’d like to hear rather than what would actually be fulfilling.
“Realize their potential as equals?”
I think its you who consider women inferior.
I think women should become empowered mothers rather than corporate slaves.
“Flies to the flame” Exactly, you are the flame, corporations consume these women.
You’re telling them what you think they’d like to hear rather than what would actually be fulfilling.
Oh goodness, I never met anyone from the 1800s before! Enchantée!
I’m sure there’s a museum somewhere that would love to have you as an exhibit.
Sam, you’re embarrassing, buddy. It’s one thing to advocate gender roles in private relationships at home. It’s another to suggest subordinate roles for professional women. As an American, I have lived in the Netherlands and France, and travelled extensively on business in Germany, Austria, and Italy. Traditional gender roles in the workplace are tiresome and self-emasculating. Women love strong men who allow them to flourish and realize their potential as equals using their own feminine powers. They are drawn like flies to the flame. You, Sam, not so much. Maybe that’s your problem.
I think you’re the one that’s backwards, What’s wrong with gender roles? Women are more miserable and weaker now in feminist “empowerment”. Enslaving themselves to a career. Waiting so long to have childen it’s a geriatric pregnancy.
It is right a man should expect their partner to do things for them, just as they would do things for their woman. Austrian men are good men.
Women have made an incredible misplay, tricked into pursing soulless careers by business elites and politicians trying to lower their wages and bump up the gdp numbers. Women now are barely able to even defend their identity.
Our grandfathers fought and sacrificed for their families, the current man questions even paying for a date with a woman.
How do you know she is asked to make the coffee because she is a woman? I was in the navy, and on board the ship it was the responsibility of the junior most person to make coffee, for a time. Is she the newest person in the office?
Really? I mean…. really? It happened every time. They asked nobody else. She’s a highly-qualified lawyer in her forties.
This is (deliberately) a contentious reply. You used the word ‘asked’ about making the coffee. In that case, she could say ‘no, make your own coffee.’
My own experience is that it is is more likely that someone instructed her to make the coffee ; and in that case she can still say ‘make your own coffee – and make me one while you are about it.’
It is now a long time since I was so junior that I was asked/told to make the coffee. The simple solution, I found, was to make the brew so poisonous that no-one ever asked again. Even now, with my own staff, if I say “would anyone like a coffee?” the response is usually “NO – I’ll make it.”
A pinch or two of salt is a sure fire way to ruin a cup of joe.
A pinch or two of salt is a sure fire way to ruin a cup of joe.
This is (deliberately) a contentious reply. You used the word ‘asked’ about making the coffee. In that case, she could say ‘no, make your own coffee.’
My own experience is that it is is more likely that someone instructed her to make the coffee ; and in that case she can still say ‘make your own coffee – and make me one while you are about it.’
It is now a long time since I was so junior that I was asked/told to make the coffee. The simple solution, I found, was to make the brew so poisonous that no-one ever asked again. Even now, with my own staff, if I say “would anyone like a coffee?” the response is usually “NO – I’ll make it.”
Because it didn’t happen in the military. In the real world the rules are different.
With respect, in the real world ( I agree with your implied point about the military) the most junior makes the coffee. Of course, there is then a lot of contention about precisely who is the most junior.
BS! The “girl” makes the coffee. Join the real world.
BS! The “girl” makes the coffee. Join the real world.
With respect, in the real world ( I agree with your implied point about the military) the most junior makes the coffee. Of course, there is then a lot of contention about precisely who is the most junior.
Really? I mean…. really? It happened every time. They asked nobody else. She’s a highly-qualified lawyer in her forties.
Because it didn’t happen in the military. In the real world the rules are different.
That is about the size of it, yes. Although I have to say: in those situations, so many women just want to please and not rock the boat. The only way it will change is if we start saying “no”. It’s tough and also risky…but if you carry on acting like the secretary – don’t be surprised if you still get treated like one.
How do you know she is asked to make the coffee because she is a woman? I was in the navy, and on board the ship it was the responsibility of the junior most person to make coffee, for a time. Is she the newest person in the office?
They just want to annexe the Sudetenland and invade Poland…
Wow, well done. Perfect historical analogy. My German friends claimed “he” was crazy, a Bavarian. Bavarians claimed “he” was Austrian. In fact, Hitler was a failed Austrian artist before WWI gas attacks infected his character.
Wow, well done. Perfect historical analogy. My German friends claimed “he” was crazy, a Bavarian. Bavarians claimed “he” was Austrian. In fact, Hitler was a failed Austrian artist before WWI gas attacks infected his character.
A friend is a corporate lawyer in Florence. She says she is always asked to make coffee when she walks into a meeting room with Italians. I just checked my calendar. It’s 2023.
They just want to annexe the Sudetenland and invade Poland…
Having been born, raised and lived in the UK for 30 years my experience was that it’s as sexist as anywhere else.
British men love their women. It’s you hateful feminists who slander them.
You don’t know if I’m a feminist or not, so that’s a total projection. I went to live in London when I just turned 17 like a lamb to slaughter. My experience with men was as a very naive girl up from the country, who now has some very painful tales to tell.
You don’t know if I’m a feminist or not, so that’s a total projection. I went to live in London when I just turned 17 like a lamb to slaughter. My experience with men was as a very naive girl up from the country, who now has some very painful tales to tell.
British men love their women. It’s you hateful feminists who slander them.
It is backwards. The men my age have attitudes like my dad. There is a reason I’ve ended up with a Luxembourger…northern Europeans are at the same stage of development on that front.
I hated dating Austrian guys. The ones I dated were all very different in terms of their personalities, but were all the same in one respect: their attitude to relationships was “I, man, say ‘jump!’ You, woman, say ‘how high?'” My God, it was tiresome.
The younger ones don’t seem to be much better. I was at a networking event the other week and talked to a very charming, very driven young man in charge of quite an exciting new startup. I was happy to talk about his business idea, give feedback and also suggested how I could help with my services. He emailed me back the next day, saying it was nice to meet me – and would I be so kind to do X, Y and Z for him (free of charge and out of the goodness of my own heart).
Buddy, I was being friendly and trying to grow my business. I am NOT your secretary. Again, this is something that ALL my female friends in Austria have a story about.
Having been born, raised and lived in the UK for 30 years my experience was that it’s as sexist as anywhere else.
Jem! Truly Outrageous, woah, Jem! Had female backing singers. I had a Robin doll and wanted the whole lot. The Misfits weren’t male backing singers, they were a rival (and obviously evil and cheating!) band with lead singer Pizazz! (The exclamation marks are very important). Jem had pink hair and played guitar, Robin had red hair and there was another band member with blue hair. They got their musical powers through something called Synergy. Pizazz! had wild green hair and her band kind of looked like a female version of Kiss!
And YES She-Ra, Princess of Power was another favorite. Even more anatomically remarkable than Barbie, she was the female twin sister of He-Man, being Adam and Aurora until they raised their swords aloft, and by the power of Grayskull!, became He-Man and She-Ra and transformed their pet companions into superhero animals that came along to fight with them. She-Ra was clearly an adult woman, she had a very feminine figure and an adult female’s voice which commanded respect. In She-Ra’s world most of the lead characters were female (although she had a male sidekick, Robin, who wasn’t played as a weakling or inept because he was a man, but as sidekick who happened to be a man).
Shout out to Cheetara in Thundercats for also being great female character.
Actually, now I come to think about it even the Care Bears and My Little Pony had a little moxie. My Little Pony still does, but falls prey to that annoying trait where the writers write as much for an adult audience (The Bronies) as for the ostensible one.
FWIW worth, I had Barbies too, and was even a member of the Barbie fan club. I’ll get me coat.
I had ‘Toxic Masculinity’ Action Man. My favourites were the German storm-trooper and Australian jungle-fighter (who came with a machete and a flamethrower). He was great.
Then, in the 80s, Action Man ended up with a colourful makeover – he looked like ‘Zoolander’ and his mates. He had a day-glo surfboard.
He was rubbish.
All downhill from there, really. I suspect I know which version She-Ra would rather go on a date with!
I remember taking my sons round Hamley’s and seeing action man in an orange jump suit – he looked like a contestant on ‘I’m a celebrity’.
The b*stards managed to castrate the poor git even though he never had any balls to begin with.
A Trump action doll, lol!
A Trump action doll, lol!
I remember taking my sons round Hamley’s and seeing action man in an orange jump suit – he looked like a contestant on ‘I’m a celebrity’.
The b*stards managed to castrate the poor git even though he never had any balls to begin with.
Thanks! That false bit about the Misfits being Jem’s male backing singers and not the rival band was really bothering me!
I had ‘Toxic Masculinity’ Action Man. My favourites were the German storm-trooper and Australian jungle-fighter (who came with a machete and a flamethrower). He was great.
Then, in the 80s, Action Man ended up with a colourful makeover – he looked like ‘Zoolander’ and his mates. He had a day-glo surfboard.
He was rubbish.
All downhill from there, really. I suspect I know which version She-Ra would rather go on a date with!
Thanks! That false bit about the Misfits being Jem’s male backing singers and not the rival band was really bothering me!
For all the reasons you describe above, you are very attractive indeed, Katharine! Being a f@#kable Barbie comes with many strings attached and most of these women are loonies, with mental and emotional issues that make good men run for the hills after the first date.
With all due respect, Warren, you offer too much credit. The 40-something f@#kable Barbie doesn’t care about second dates. They’ve lived their lives on one-night stands and extend that one night at a time. Good luck with competing with an infinite supply of young, fertile ladies on the prowl for high-quality men — assuming that’s even part of the criteria.
With all due respect, Warren, you offer too much credit. The 40-something f@#kable Barbie doesn’t care about second dates. They’ve lived their lives on one-night stands and extend that one night at a time. Good luck with competing with an infinite supply of young, fertile ladies on the prowl for high-quality men — assuming that’s even part of the criteria.
I have always thought that never being a sex object must make it easier to age. Speaking as one, I stuggle to not be bothered by ageing. It’s difficult, and I’m rather ashamed about being bothered by it; which doesn’t help the whole process. Being a sex object has power in a man’s world and power is addictive, so part of aging is going through the withdrawal of the loss of power, and grief over loss.
A friend is dating an Austrian woman in her 40s. She describes Austria as very sexist compared to, say, Scandinavia or the UK. However, she did mention Austria is a bastion of progressive feminism compared to Italy. I know I shouldn’t be surprised.
Jem! Truly Outrageous, woah, Jem! Had female backing singers. I had a Robin doll and wanted the whole lot. The Misfits weren’t male backing singers, they were a rival (and obviously evil and cheating!) band with lead singer Pizazz! (The exclamation marks are very important). Jem had pink hair and played guitar, Robin had red hair and there was another band member with blue hair. They got their musical powers through something called Synergy. Pizazz! had wild green hair and her band kind of looked like a female version of Kiss!
And YES She-Ra, Princess of Power was another favorite. Even more anatomically remarkable than Barbie, she was the female twin sister of He-Man, being Adam and Aurora until they raised their swords aloft, and by the power of Grayskull!, became He-Man and She-Ra and transformed their pet companions into superhero animals that came along to fight with them. She-Ra was clearly an adult woman, she had a very feminine figure and an adult female’s voice which commanded respect. In She-Ra’s world most of the lead characters were female (although she had a male sidekick, Robin, who wasn’t played as a weakling or inept because he was a man, but as sidekick who happened to be a man).
Shout out to Cheetara in Thundercats for also being great female character.
Actually, now I come to think about it even the Care Bears and My Little Pony had a little moxie. My Little Pony still does, but falls prey to that annoying trait where the writers write as much for an adult audience (The Bronies) as for the ostensible one.
FWIW worth, I had Barbies too, and was even a member of the Barbie fan club. I’ll get me coat.
For all the reasons you describe above, you are very attractive indeed, Katharine! Being a f@#kable Barbie comes with many strings attached and most of these women are loonies, with mental and emotional issues that make good men run for the hills after the first date.
I have always thought that never being a sex object must make it easier to age. Speaking as one, I stuggle to not be bothered by ageing. It’s difficult, and I’m rather ashamed about being bothered by it; which doesn’t help the whole process. Being a sex object has power in a man’s world and power is addictive, so part of aging is going through the withdrawal of the loss of power, and grief over loss.
Interesting article, and the only time I have engaged with this current Barbie discussion.
But just like with Barbie dolls when we were kids, I’m on the outside, looking in. I don’t relate, I just don’t get the relationship to the entire phenomenon.
I never had a Barbie: Barbie appalled me. I had a Jem: a rockstar who had male backing singers (The Misfits). I played with my sister’s tired old Sindy doll for whom my lovely Nana had knitted tiny clothes – even a handbag with a sequin button. And I thought my She-Ra doll was FANTASTIC.
But the way other girls obsessed on Barbie – that was another world. It still is. As a 41 year old millennial, she has zero relevance to how I see myself or how I think about female empowerment.
Perhaps it’s because I was never really the one that men would run towards like bees to a honey pot, but I don’t really get any of this “oh no, I’m no longer f*able!” rhetoric. If you were never really f*able, then getting older becomes a hell of a lot easier.
Hitting my 40s has been a massive liberation. I just don’t have the energy to be obsessing about fighting to be taken seriously in the office alongside the men, or about how women are still trying to smash the glass ceiling, or about whether the patriarchy is still a thing, or about how the country where I live (Austria) is at least a generation behind the rest of the western world when it comes to gender roles and how frustrating that is for women sometimes…or about how women are often their own worst enemies.
I can’t be bothered with any of it any more. I have my business, I do my thing, I get stuff done, I make my decisions and accept the consequences.
All of my female millennial friends are the same. We are no longer have the revolutionary zeal we once had; we know what we like, what we want, how to filter out the BS from our lives. And we realise that there are some things and some attitudes that are going to need longer to change. But we’ve done our bit. And that’s OK. Over to Gen Z.
It’s just a doll. Don’t overthink it.
Agreed, I’m reminded of the phrase “Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process”Get a life 🙂 Barbie is just a doll
I am planning on writing a 15,000 word piece on GI Joe dolls and their relationship the book of Exodus.
Yeah really!!!
Agreed, I’m reminded of the phrase “Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process”Get a life 🙂 Barbie is just a doll
I am planning on writing a 15,000 word piece on GI Joe dolls and their relationship the book of Exodus.
Yeah really!!!
It’s just a doll. Don’t overthink it.
“Is it possible to dodge the social obligation of remaining Fuckable Literally Forever, yet also remain seen, in a world where women of a certain age have a way of becoming invisible?”
Yep. It’s called growing the eff up.
I wonder in what contexts the author fears “becoming invisible.” On Instagram? At singles’ bars? If you’re doing something useful or fun in the world, with decent people, you’re not “invisible” unless you intentionally sit in the back and say, “Pretend I’m not here.”
I would say social media (but potentially a friend or work group too). I signed up to Instagram a few years ago, to keep somewhat in touch with people without having to read their Facebook rants about politics. Much of Instagram appears to be heavily filtered images of people interspersed with adverts on how I need this or that eyebrow, lip, body, cellulite, hair, workout, clothing, home interior, home exterior product. Again, all heavily edited and filtered. Usually for the body products the advert is accompanied with a ‘I can’t believe she is 40!’ kind of line. It reminds me of when I was younger and might grab a copy of Cosmo in a waiting room, makes you instantly feel horrible about the way you look.
If you use the search function on Instagram it pops up with a bunch of pictures, mostly women looking hot (in just two weeks of drinking our product, you too can look like this!) or pets (mostly cats).
Why do I still use it now and then. Cat videos. Yes, I am part of the problem.
I like cat videos, too. My daughters text me videos of their cats.
I like cat videos, too. My daughters text me videos of their cats.
I would say social media (but potentially a friend or work group too). I signed up to Instagram a few years ago, to keep somewhat in touch with people without having to read their Facebook rants about politics. Much of Instagram appears to be heavily filtered images of people interspersed with adverts on how I need this or that eyebrow, lip, body, cellulite, hair, workout, clothing, home interior, home exterior product. Again, all heavily edited and filtered. Usually for the body products the advert is accompanied with a ‘I can’t believe she is 40!’ kind of line. It reminds me of when I was younger and might grab a copy of Cosmo in a waiting room, makes you instantly feel horrible about the way you look.
If you use the search function on Instagram it pops up with a bunch of pictures, mostly women looking hot (in just two weeks of drinking our product, you too can look like this!) or pets (mostly cats).
Why do I still use it now and then. Cat videos. Yes, I am part of the problem.
Yup. And in my experience the women who are obsessed with remaining Fuckable Literally Forever (or is it with remaining the centre of attention forever) do so at the cost of ever being sufficiently lovable to attract anyone worthwhile.
I wonder in what contexts the author fears “becoming invisible.” On Instagram? At singles’ bars? If you’re doing something useful or fun in the world, with decent people, you’re not “invisible” unless you intentionally sit in the back and say, “Pretend I’m not here.”
Yup. And in my experience the women who are obsessed with remaining Fuckable Literally Forever (or is it with remaining the centre of attention forever) do so at the cost of ever being sufficiently lovable to attract anyone worthwhile.
“Is it possible to dodge the social obligation of remaining Fuckable Literally Forever, yet also remain seen, in a world where women of a certain age have a way of becoming invisible?”
Yep. It’s called growing the eff up.
“it is now possible for a committed woman to be hot virtually indefinitely”
Nope. The wall is merciless. It can’t be beaten.
Men are so gleeful about this, as if it is the only immutable power they have over women. In age of sperm donors and willful single parenthood, it isn’t. From a romantic perspective, men are still desirable to many women, but they’re no longer required. Sorry.
On every metric available, children of single parents have worse outcomes than children with two. So a great result all round.
I really have to wonder about those metrics you speak of. There are so many variables, like better to have one loving parent than two dysfuntional ones, for instance.
Exceptions don’t disprove the rule. In general the more parents you have the better.
10? 20? 100? Surely two’s enough?
More of the ones that can give unconditional love,perhaps.
10? 20? 100? Surely two’s enough?
More of the ones that can give unconditional love,perhaps.
Exceptions don’t disprove the rule. In general the more parents you have the better.
I really have to wonder about those metrics you speak of. There are so many variables, like better to have one loving parent than two dysfuntional ones, for instance.
It is cruel to tell women they will be beautiful forever, and that they don’t need a man. We all need family. I can’t even begin to imagine the pain these botox women are going through.
I don’t think women are being told they don’t need a man, or that having a man is the only kind of family there is. I think woman have found out, by themselves, that they have choices in life other than creating the nuclear family.
I don’t think women are being told they don’t need a man, or that having a man is the only kind of family there is. I think woman have found out, by themselves, that they have choices in life other than creating the nuclear family.
This is not a good thing. You can use technology to attempt to fill the void, but the void nonetheless remains
Women become old, men become distinguished.
Says I all!
Says I all!
On every metric available, children of single parents have worse outcomes than children with two. So a great result all round.
It is cruel to tell women they will be beautiful forever, and that they don’t need a man. We all need family. I can’t even begin to imagine the pain these botox women are going through.
This is not a good thing. You can use technology to attempt to fill the void, but the void nonetheless remains
Women become old, men become distinguished.
Men hit a wall as well.
Men are so gleeful about this, as if it is the only immutable power they have over women. In age of sperm donors and willful single parenthood, it isn’t. From a romantic perspective, men are still desirable to many women, but they’re no longer required. Sorry.
Men hit a wall as well.
“it is now possible for a committed woman to be hot virtually indefinitely”
Nope. The wall is merciless. It can’t be beaten.
“With enough time, effort and money, it is now possible for a committed woman to be hot virtually indefinitely”
Remind me, how’s that working out for Madonna ? (Snigger, snigger)
Madonna has looked like a plastinated corpse for at least the last decade. I suppose she’s happy with it.
She looks like a boiled egg!…
She looks like a boiled egg!…
Something is seriously wrong with her face.
She has michaeljackson-ed herself, I would say….
She has michaeljackson-ed herself, I would say….
The snigger gave your comment a nasty flavor.
Madonna has looked like a plastinated corpse for at least the last decade. I suppose she’s happy with it.
Something is seriously wrong with her face.
The snigger gave your comment a nasty flavor.
“With enough time, effort and money, it is now possible for a committed woman to be hot virtually indefinitely”
Remind me, how’s that working out for Madonna ? (Snigger, snigger)
“the sense that her true value to society is in her youthful good looks and fertility”
Irrespective of everything else in this article, it confuses me when “fertility” is brought up in a culture of intentional sterility. I had five children at 33 – Margot Robbie’s age – and went on to have another five. I’m very involved in real life: Scout leader, camp staff, choir director, environmental educator. As I go around with my natural hair color, face, and body, people sometimes say, “You look nice,” but mostly they’re glad I’m there – reliable, punctual, trained – to do my (unpaid) job.
Bravo, Cynthia! You are the only woman in this thread that I can obviously describe as truly “accomplished”.
You don’t know anything about the other women do you? There are many ways to be accomplished other than having ten children.
Sounds like you’re jealous
My dear Sam, anyone can breed not everyone can parent.
My dear Sam, anyone can breed not everyone can parent.
Sounds like you’re jealous
People do all sorts of different things in their lives.
You don’t know anything about the other women do you? There are many ways to be accomplished other than having ten children.
People do all sorts of different things in their lives.
Yikes 10 chidren!!
Keeps me off the streets and out of the bars.
I should hope so, what with your “respectable” functions…
I should hope so, what with your “respectable” functions…
You mean “horrors”!
Keeps me off the streets and out of the bars.
You mean “horrors”!
“Irrespective of everything else in this article, it confuses me when “fertility” is brought up in a culture of intentional sterility.”
This annoys me, too. Not just this article, but hundreds like it from both sexes. Just what exactly do these people think they’re signalling? Do they even know why they’re doing it?
PS – 10 children? Wonderful.
Having 10 children is wonderful? Try being pregnant for 90 months (and that’s just for starters…) and come back to tell us about it! Didn’t think so…
If I wanted your unsolicited opinion before congratulating a fellow commenter, I would have asked for it.
It’s a comment section, Derek, free speech. Your comments are fair game.
It’s a comment section, Derek, free speech. Your comments are fair game.
If I wanted your unsolicited opinion before congratulating a fellow commenter, I would have asked for it.
What if everyone in the world had 10 children? Would that be so “wonderful?” There would be a long line in the post office.
I like them. Two adult sons and two daughters and two of the daughters’ friends and one friend’s mom turned up after dinner last night, and we all had some wine and a good time.
It’s just weird that writers mention “fertility” when neither the men nor the women are interested in having children. Intentional infertility is the expectation.
Having 10 children is wonderful? Try being pregnant for 90 months (and that’s just for starters…) and come back to tell us about it! Didn’t think so…
What if everyone in the world had 10 children? Would that be so “wonderful?” There would be a long line in the post office.