The similar destinies of the United States and Rome can at times seem eerie. The three Punic Wars fought between the middle of the third century BC and the middle of the second century BC, constituted the great world wars of ancient Mediterranean civilisation, and ended with Rome’s complete destruction of Carthage. More recently, the two world wars of the 20th century ended with the complete destruction and defeat of Germany and Japan, and with the United States in a position of global dominance. In both conflicts, an empire’s supremacy reached its peak at the moment of victory.
Like the United States during the Second World War, Rome in the course of the Punic Wars became an empire. The First and Second Punic Wars saw Roman power established over Sicily, Sardinia and a good part of Spain — all former areas of Carthaginian influence. Rome also gradually extended its sway over greater Greece and Numidia, the latter coinciding with modern Algeria, to the west of Carthage on the North African coast.
Again, somewhat like the United States, imperialism helped lead to a dramatic increase in wealth in Rome itself, as a class of nouveau riche in the capital benefited from war booty, overseas trade, money lending and the like, according to the late British classicist S. A. Handford. Eventually, the Roman legions would evolve from a mass conscription military to a more professional, volunteer fighting force in order to regulate the vast territories under its influence as an imperial behemoth. The rough parallel with the development of the United States as a great power is hard to ignore, given how Washington itself has developed into a money-culture of well-heeled think tanks and flashy lobbyists, even as the mass conscription army that fought Second World War and Vietnam has morphed into a highly professional volunteer force of working-class youth, culturally divorced from the well-bred policy nomenklatura in the capital.
But the comparison becomes especially eerie when one considers that following the Punic Wars and Rome’s becoming an empire, it immersed itself in small wars against tribes and other chieftains that brought little glory and much political complications to Rome, and were a factor in its gradual decline. Of course, that is the common fate of empire, since to influence large and varied regions of the Earth naturally requires military as well as economic and political involvement. In the oft-quoted words of the mid-20th century American theologian, Reinhold Niebuhr:
“The same strength which has extended our power beyond a continent has also interwoven our destiny with the destiny of many peoples and brought us into a vast web of history in which other wills, running in oblique or contrasting directions to our own, inevitably hinder or contradict what we most fervently desire.”
The young Winston Churchill was reading into the worst nightmare of Niebuhr’s and America’s imperial future when, in 1897, he described Afghanistan in The Story of the Malakand Field Force: “a roadless, broken and underdeveloped country; an absence of any strategic points; a well-armed enemy with great mobility and modern rifles, who adopts guerrilla tactics. The result… [is] that the troops can march anywhere, and do anything, except catch the enemy….
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeThis article’s timeline is simply not correct. The Roman Republic was governered by the Senate for another 100+ years after the Punic Wars. Julius Caesar marches his army into Rome in BC 51, and is assasinated by republican Senators opposed to his dictatorship. Another generation pases before his nephew Octavian (Augustus) is crowned the first Emperor in BC 27.
The territorial extent of the Rome crested not after the Punic Wars, but almost 250 years later, after a century of empire. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GylVIyK6voU)
The underlying comparison between America and Rome is likely accurate, but the author’s inaccurate timeline misplaces where we are. He thinks our American Empire is at about 250 AD, at its maximum territorial extent and headed for decline. This common equation today is likely very wrong.
Like Rome, we have a sprawling international “empire”, but we are still politically a republic, both on paper and in reality. Elections still have consequences. It’s not 300 AD with barbarians ready to carve up the spoils from a decrepit empire. It’s BC 50 — we haven’t even had our Caesar yet.
This is not my theory. Thinkers as diverse as Mary Harrington, Rod Dreher, and Martin Gurri, Christopher Lasch, and Peter Turchin have said similar things. Adam Smith said “there’s a lot of ruin in a nation”. A nation as large and powerful as America can drag it’s aging carcass around for a long time (for good or ill to others) before it actually dies.
The American Republic is likely near the end of its life. However, the American Empire is just being born.
Rome’s territorial expansion may not have peaked until Trajan’s brief conquest of Mesopotamia and Assyria in what we now call 117 AD, but she was effectively mistress of the Mediterranean World after the Battle of Magnesia in 190 BC.
Having in short order defeated Carthage in 202 BC, Macedonia in 197 BC, after Magnesia there was only subservient Egypt left.
Despite Caesar’s later conquest of Gaul, and further ‘infilling’ by Augustus & Co, this was essentially an agrarian Mediterranean* Empire.
(* Or “Mare Nostrum “- our sea, as the Romans so charmingly called it.)
So…. what are your conclusions vis a vis the US, and the (dis)similarities with Rome. This is your field after all, or are your lips sealed by Chatham House?
A major factor that precipitated the ‘fall of Rome’ was that they tore themselves apart fighting ruinously expensive civil wars.
Perhaps the US is about to emulate them?
Highly unlikely, unless the US military changes radically.
Those late Roman civil wars were launched by regional military leaders against the central govt. They had nothing to do with the M-16 toting clowns we see today. A few drones would take them out in short order.
Highly unlikely, unless the US military changes radically.
Those late Roman civil wars were launched by regional military leaders against the central govt. They had nothing to do with the M-16 toting clowns we see today. A few drones would take them out in short order.
A major factor that precipitated the ‘fall of Rome’ was that they tore themselves apart fighting ruinously expensive civil wars.
Perhaps the US is about to emulate them?
So…. what are your conclusions vis a vis the US, and the (dis)similarities with Rome. This is your field after all, or are your lips sealed by Chatham House?
You were doing do well until your final paragraph – anyone who confuses what the US is with a Republic is deluded to the point of wishful thinking.. the US is a totally corrupt, money driven plutocracy where the people’s votes are of zero input into government: they do not elect, but merely select between two puppets, Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
Eisenhaur warned the MIC and moghuls would replace the government; they have, a long time ago. The Barbarian hoards are not at the gates, that’s true.. they are already unside the walls, heavily armed and when poverty (from de-dollarisation) hits the hoards will strike. The MIC’s vast military power will be of little use as carpet bombing, cruise missile strikes nuclear weapons cannot realistically be used. The army has fewer that a million to fight the 40 million (min.) well armed enemy within.. Then they will indeed get their Caesar.. maybe Trump? Maybe an general general such as Caesar himself?
At the point when Augustus turned it into an Empire, the Roman Republic was also totally corrupt.
That didn’t stop Caesar from conquering Gaul.
That didn’t stop Caesar from conquering Gaul.
Whether a society is a republic has to do with whether they have elections in which the will of the voters can meaningfully change policy outcomes. By that standard, America is a republic, and ancient Rome was as well.
That doesn’t mean ancient Rome wasn’t corrupt (although the modern definition of corruption really doesn’t apply 2000 years ago.) It doesn’t mean America isn’t corrupt in some ways (although I think you’re straining on that point.) Turkey is also a republic, as is Poland, as is Hungary — all 3 are also corrupt.
I suspect a functional, non-corrupt republic isn’t conducive to being transformed to an empire at all. My belief that America’s future is truly imperial is an admission of a certain level of corruption of the republic even today.
“Eisenhower”
“hordes”
Sadly, the “well-armed enemy within” possesses only semi-automatic M-16s, little better than Mattell toys. The gun industry has been marketing their useless guns to the clueless idiots for decades.
A few drones strikes and any “insurrection” melts like snow.
Jan 6 shows what happens to people who oppose the US govt.
At the point when Augustus turned it into an Empire, the Roman Republic was also totally corrupt.
Whether a society is a republic has to do with whether they have elections in which the will of the voters can meaningfully change policy outcomes. By that standard, America is a republic, and ancient Rome was as well.
That doesn’t mean ancient Rome wasn’t corrupt (although the modern definition of corruption really doesn’t apply 2000 years ago.) It doesn’t mean America isn’t corrupt in some ways (although I think you’re straining on that point.) Turkey is also a republic, as is Poland, as is Hungary — all 3 are also corrupt.
I suspect a functional, non-corrupt republic isn’t conducive to being transformed to an empire at all. My belief that America’s future is truly imperial is an admission of a certain level of corruption of the republic even today.
“Eisenhower”
“hordes”
Sadly, the “well-armed enemy within” possesses only semi-automatic M-16s, little better than Mattell toys. The gun industry has been marketing their useless guns to the clueless idiots for decades.
A few drones strikes and any “insurrection” melts like snow.
Jan 6 shows what happens to people who oppose the US govt.
The Blob is British, our equivalent is the deep state.
Rome’s territorial expansion may not have peaked until Trajan’s brief conquest of Mesopotamia and Assyria in what we now call 117 AD, but she was effectively mistress of the Mediterranean World after the Battle of Magnesia in 190 BC.
Having in short order defeated Carthage in 202 BC, Macedonia in 197 BC, after Magnesia there was only subservient Egypt left.
Despite Caesar’s later conquest of Gaul, and further ‘infilling’ by Augustus & Co, this was essentially an agrarian Mediterranean* Empire.
(* Or “Mare Nostrum “- our sea, as the Romans so charmingly called it.)
You were doing do well until your final paragraph – anyone who confuses what the US is with a Republic is deluded to the point of wishful thinking.. the US is a totally corrupt, money driven plutocracy where the people’s votes are of zero input into government: they do not elect, but merely select between two puppets, Tweedledum and Tweedledee.
Eisenhaur warned the MIC and moghuls would replace the government; they have, a long time ago. The Barbarian hoards are not at the gates, that’s true.. they are already unside the walls, heavily armed and when poverty (from de-dollarisation) hits the hoards will strike. The MIC’s vast military power will be of little use as carpet bombing, cruise missile strikes nuclear weapons cannot realistically be used. The army has fewer that a million to fight the 40 million (min.) well armed enemy within.. Then they will indeed get their Caesar.. maybe Trump? Maybe an general general such as Caesar himself?
The Blob is British, our equivalent is the deep state.
This article’s timeline is simply not correct. The Roman Republic was governered by the Senate for another 100+ years after the Punic Wars. Julius Caesar marches his army into Rome in BC 51, and is assasinated by republican Senators opposed to his dictatorship. Another generation pases before his nephew Octavian (Augustus) is crowned the first Emperor in BC 27.
The territorial extent of the Rome crested not after the Punic Wars, but almost 250 years later, after a century of empire. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GylVIyK6voU)
The underlying comparison between America and Rome is likely accurate, but the author’s inaccurate timeline misplaces where we are. He thinks our American Empire is at about 250 AD, at its maximum territorial extent and headed for decline. This common equation today is likely very wrong.
Like Rome, we have a sprawling international “empire”, but we are still politically a republic, both on paper and in reality. Elections still have consequences. It’s not 300 AD with barbarians ready to carve up the spoils from a decrepit empire. It’s BC 50 — we haven’t even had our Caesar yet.
This is not my theory. Thinkers as diverse as Mary Harrington, Rod Dreher, and Martin Gurri, Christopher Lasch, and Peter Turchin have said similar things. Adam Smith said “there’s a lot of ruin in a nation”. A nation as large and powerful as America can drag it’s aging carcass around for a long time (for good or ill to others) before it actually dies.
The American Republic is likely near the end of its life. However, the American Empire is just being born.
It is a certainty… Outside financial services and the tech industry, the demise of the Fords, GMs, Chryslers, IBMs, the breweries, car parts suppliers, is exponential. The tech industry had reached the stage where the visionary entrepreneurs will be gone, and they too will become management run monoliths, failing to compete with Asian rivals. The woke internet has just added to the demise, plus the insular lack of education ( as in Britain) of the vest majority.
The great US wasp generation of financiers and bankers, the greatest in history who came to London and transformed world capital markets are gone… buried by the false God of egalitarianism, equal opportunity and ” diverse inclusive”… RIP USA.
As you say the visionary entrepreneurs will be gone, and the businesses they founded will become management run monoliths
James Burnham’s Managerial Elite provides a very good insight into this phenomenon and why it appears to be inevitable
I gave you an uptick more in hope than in belief!
As you say the visionary entrepreneurs will be gone, and the businesses they founded will become management run monoliths
James Burnham’s Managerial Elite provides a very good insight into this phenomenon and why it appears to be inevitable
I gave you an uptick more in hope than in belief!
It is a certainty… Outside financial services and the tech industry, the demise of the Fords, GMs, Chryslers, IBMs, the breweries, car parts suppliers, is exponential. The tech industry had reached the stage where the visionary entrepreneurs will be gone, and they too will become management run monoliths, failing to compete with Asian rivals. The woke internet has just added to the demise, plus the insular lack of education ( as in Britain) of the vest majority.
The great US wasp generation of financiers and bankers, the greatest in history who came to London and transformed world capital markets are gone… buried by the false God of egalitarianism, equal opportunity and ” diverse inclusive”… RIP USA.
While I agree with the broad sweep of the author’s “fall of empire” comparisons, we need to understand the following: The success against Carthage laid the seeds of the Roman Empire, but the Empire did not achieve its greatest territorial expansion and especially the superior military organisation it is renowned for until nearly three centuries later.
It seems to be the genius of today’s Neocons to be able to telescope time; the transformation from republic to empire took Rome 200-250 years; the Neocons achieved it in 40; even greater is the Neocon achievement is precipitating the fall. It took (the Western half of) Rome 400 years for imperial overreach to outrun the Empire’s commercial might. The US is gunning for getting there in 30.
While I agree with the broad sweep of the author’s “fall of empire” comparisons, we need to understand the following: The success against Carthage laid the seeds of the Roman Empire, but the Empire did not achieve its greatest territorial expansion and especially the superior military organisation it is renowned for until nearly three centuries later.
It seems to be the genius of today’s Neocons to be able to telescope time; the transformation from republic to empire took Rome 200-250 years; the Neocons achieved it in 40; even greater is the Neocon achievement is precipitating the fall. It took (the Western half of) Rome 400 years for imperial overreach to outrun the Empire’s commercial might. The US is gunning for getting there in 30.
I am struck by how limited the historical comparisons are in this article. From his previous writings as well as this article it seems that Mr. Kaplan’s knowledge of geo-history is quite small. Why not refer to the conflicts between the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Rome) and the Sassanians or later the Islamic empires that dominated the area from the 8th century onwards? Or, even more important, the waxing and waning of Chinese and Indian dynasties with their relationships with neighbouring nomadic polities. Some of his observations have a much wider base than just Rome or the US, but he seems to lack a proper understanding of the cyclical and evanescent nature of empires and their geographical scope.
Yes, a synopsis of all those Chinese Empires from Han to Qing would have been useful, given the current state of world politics.
Yes, a synopsis of all those Chinese Empires from Han to Qing would have been useful, given the current state of world politics.
I am struck by how limited the historical comparisons are in this article. From his previous writings as well as this article it seems that Mr. Kaplan’s knowledge of geo-history is quite small. Why not refer to the conflicts between the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Rome) and the Sassanians or later the Islamic empires that dominated the area from the 8th century onwards? Or, even more important, the waxing and waning of Chinese and Indian dynasties with their relationships with neighbouring nomadic polities. Some of his observations have a much wider base than just Rome or the US, but he seems to lack a proper understanding of the cyclical and evanescent nature of empires and their geographical scope.
I’m very pleased to see a scholar drawing analogies between the current American situation and the Roman Republic rather than the “fall of Rome” (a non-event, actually, amplified by later Westerners from Charlemagne to Gibbon into an event of mythic importance because they wanted to dispossess the organic continuation of the Roman Empire with its capital at Constantinople of its Roman-ness: the last Western Augustus was retired to a villa near Naples because the Eastern Augustus reigning in Constantinople decided the parallel office was pointless, as the King of the Ostrogoths, in his other role as Patrician of the Romans, could handle imperial affairs in Italy just fine).
I have declined to vote for the major party candidates in the last two Presidential elections here because I saw all of them as wannabe Caesars, and I prefer living in a republic, even if it is increasingly corrupt to living in an empire.
I’m very pleased to see a scholar drawing analogies between the current American situation and the Roman Republic rather than the “fall of Rome” (a non-event, actually, amplified by later Westerners from Charlemagne to Gibbon into an event of mythic importance because they wanted to dispossess the organic continuation of the Roman Empire with its capital at Constantinople of its Roman-ness: the last Western Augustus was retired to a villa near Naples because the Eastern Augustus reigning in Constantinople decided the parallel office was pointless, as the King of the Ostrogoths, in his other role as Patrician of the Romans, could handle imperial affairs in Italy just fine).
I have declined to vote for the major party candidates in the last two Presidential elections here because I saw all of them as wannabe Caesars, and I prefer living in a republic, even if it is increasingly corrupt to living in an empire.
To look at it through my British goggles, Churchill’s words are a hauntingly accurate description of our current behaviour. Except that now we do it on behalf of another empire. Well, we don’t have one of our any more so what are our leaders to do?
As to why it always come back to the comparison with Rome – Romans wrote books and historians read them.
Harley Schlanger of LaRouch reckons is a joint UK/US Empire.. What say you (and you Charlie) to that assertion?
It’s a US Empire with the UK as a poodle. Still, it allows our deluded leader to claim that they are still of some importance – Top Poodle!
No, the US is the Organ grinder and we are the Monkey, and have been since late 1916.
I looked up his site – gave him a few minutes. He seems to want to blame the Brits for US foreign policy.
Oh Liam, if only!
The British government has no influence on US policy whatsoever – none at all. The UK is just a site for American military and spy bases, and provides British troops to lend an air of international respectabilty to American ventures abroad. It was only the obduracy of the left-wing of the Labour Party that stopped the UK sending British troops to die in Vietnam. Sadly the Labour Party no longer has a genuine left-wing.
I would be in favour of closing all US bases in Britain and restucturing UK defence forces to defend the UK only. I am not interested in having an empire, or being part of anyone elses. As Charles alluded, The British Empire died in the trenches of the Somme. – Good riddance.
It’s a US Empire with the UK as a poodle. Still, it allows our deluded leader to claim that they are still of some importance – Top Poodle!
No, the US is the Organ grinder and we are the Monkey, and have been since late 1916.
I looked up his site – gave him a few minutes. He seems to want to blame the Brits for US foreign policy.
Oh Liam, if only!
The British government has no influence on US policy whatsoever – none at all. The UK is just a site for American military and spy bases, and provides British troops to lend an air of international respectabilty to American ventures abroad. It was only the obduracy of the left-wing of the Labour Party that stopped the UK sending British troops to die in Vietnam. Sadly the Labour Party no longer has a genuine left-wing.
I would be in favour of closing all US bases in Britain and restucturing UK defence forces to defend the UK only. I am not interested in having an empire, or being part of anyone elses. As Charles alluded, The British Empire died in the trenches of the Somme. – Good riddance.
Harley Schlanger of LaRouch reckons is a joint UK/US Empire.. What say you (and you Charlie) to that assertion?
To look at it through my British goggles, Churchill’s words are a hauntingly accurate description of our current behaviour. Except that now we do it on behalf of another empire. Well, we don’t have one of our any more so what are our leaders to do?
As to why it always come back to the comparison with Rome – Romans wrote books and historians read them.
Interesting and useful article.
Bizarre that commentators are already piling in with an almost adolescent anti-Americanism. Nowhere does the article take a partisan pro-US view nordoes it suggest that eveything the US has done was right. It’s a well-balanced view.
Nothing adolescent about it you just CANNOT compare the two.
Nor for that matter could you make such a comparison with say the late, lamented British Empire, which I for one so fondly remember.
Of course you can always compare two different things and look at differences and similarities. There’s no scale of difference which makes it suddenly impossible to compare things when they become “too different”.
I don’t really subscribe to the idea that the US has an “empire” in the traditional sense in any case. What it has had is a pretty much worldwide sphere of influence, which was largely achieved not through conquest and occupation. Yes, it does have an exrtraordinarily large number of overseas military bases in a very large number of countries. But that’s not the same as actually occupying the countries and directly dicating what they can and cannot do.
Perhaps – obligatory British Empire reference – it’s closer to the way we (Britain) first dealt with Egypt – I can’t track down the exact quote where someone (Evelyn Baring ?) said “We don’t rule Egypt. We rule the rulers who rule Egypt”.
Well let us say an invidious comparison then.
Egypt off course is interesting because we declared a Protectorate over it, thus it was never a Crown Colony for example.
The US effectively has declared a Protectorate over most of South & Central America , thanks to the Monroe Doctrine.
As to the rest of US ‘Imperium’, it more closely resembles the way we controlled the Indian States, internal independence within reason, but control of foreign affairs and defence.
Even the UK falls into this category, although we hate to admit it!
ps. I regard the continental United States as an Empire. Only unusual in that it virtually exterminated the original population rather ruling and civilising them.
The Romans would NOT have been impressed.
Except that’s not really true. I’m sure we’ve had this discussion before. How did the US ever allow Harold Wilson to sit out the Vietnam War if what you say is true ?
We already had two nice little ‘wars’ on the go as you may recall.
If the White House had wanted our support they only had to ask.
It seems to be rather topical these days to quote this Leftish nonsense that “Harold kept us out of Vietnam “.
What he should be pilloried for is deploying the Army so late to Northern Ireland, and then NOT giving it the power it needed to suppress that incipient insurgency.*
(* Martial Law.)
I was assuming we were “asked”. I also assumed that the Aussies didn’t just rock up there of their own volition without an invitation.
I don’t think we were ‘asked’ for military support, just moral support.
I gather the Aussies ‘volunteered’ as it was rather close to home for them.
If Iraq is anything to go by the US were VERY fortunate that we didn’t try to stick our nose into Vietnam.
I don’t think we were ‘asked’ for military support, just moral support.
I gather the Aussies ‘volunteered’ as it was rather close to home for them.
If Iraq is anything to go by the US were VERY fortunate that we didn’t try to stick our nose into Vietnam.
I was assuming we were “asked”. I also assumed that the Aussies didn’t just rock up there of their own volition without an invitation.
We already had two nice little ‘wars’ on the go as you may recall.
If the White House had wanted our support they only had to ask.
It seems to be rather topical these days to quote this Leftish nonsense that “Harold kept us out of Vietnam “.
What he should be pilloried for is deploying the Army so late to Northern Ireland, and then NOT giving it the power it needed to suppress that incipient insurgency.*
(* Martial Law.)
However, many countries, like Poland and Baltic States, would be very happy to have even more American bases.
Is it not quite different from Russian Empire (to bring it closer to modern times) where empire provinces did not really want to be part of it?
Except that’s not really true. I’m sure we’ve had this discussion before. How did the US ever allow Harold Wilson to sit out the Vietnam War if what you say is true ?
However, many countries, like Poland and Baltic States, would be very happy to have even more American bases.
Is it not quite different from Russian Empire (to bring it closer to modern times) where empire provinces did not really want to be part of it?
Your final sentence also describes the current US Empire.. 3rd country ‘rulers’ are ruled by US threats, bribes and sanctions (where they don’t go the whole hog and invade, assassinate or topple) with the same iron fist that Rome and the BE exerted. Puppet regimes might as well have US governors so the similarity stands.
Total nonsense.
Many countries like Poland and Baltic States have interests, at least partially, aligned with USA.
They would be more than happy to have even more USA bases.
You conveniently forget that USA saved Europe in two world wars and then provided Marshal Plan aid, relieved West Berlin, and protected Western Europe against Russian threat.
Whereas your lot supplied German Uboats.
Total nonsense.
Many countries like Poland and Baltic States have interests, at least partially, aligned with USA.
They would be more than happy to have even more USA bases.
You conveniently forget that USA saved Europe in two world wars and then provided Marshal Plan aid, relieved West Berlin, and protected Western Europe against Russian threat.
Whereas your lot supplied German Uboats.
Well let us say an invidious comparison then.
Egypt off course is interesting because we declared a Protectorate over it, thus it was never a Crown Colony for example.
The US effectively has declared a Protectorate over most of South & Central America , thanks to the Monroe Doctrine.
As to the rest of US ‘Imperium’, it more closely resembles the way we controlled the Indian States, internal independence within reason, but control of foreign affairs and defence.
Even the UK falls into this category, although we hate to admit it!
ps. I regard the continental United States as an Empire. Only unusual in that it virtually exterminated the original population rather ruling and civilising them.
The Romans would NOT have been impressed.
Your final sentence also describes the current US Empire.. 3rd country ‘rulers’ are ruled by US threats, bribes and sanctions (where they don’t go the whole hog and invade, assassinate or topple) with the same iron fist that Rome and the BE exerted. Puppet regimes might as well have US governors so the similarity stands.
If you remember the BE Charlie you must be what, 90 years old? ..I’m assuming your ‘knowledge’ of the empire wasn’t very well developed until you were say 10 years old? Unless your counting Scotland, Wales and NI as imperial colonies?
Certainly older that you Liam old chap, assuming you are about 73?
Incidentally when would date the end of the BE?
Off course Wales, NI and Scotland or North Britain as I prefer to call it are “Dediticii”, as the Romans would say, but we mustn’t dwell on that in these sensitive times must we?
Is there any acknowledged “end date” for the British Empire ? I guess you’re the likely authority on that round here. Just curious if mid 1960s would be too late to be blessed/contaminated by the Empire. Of course, this modern hereditary guilt means even our unborn descendents will still be held responsible.
I would go for 1960 when we let Nigeria* go.
After that only the minnows were left.
(* Population 45 million in 1960.)
ps. Liam you were 13 then , surely you remember that famous day and year?
pps. Why has this innocuous reply been censored?
Probably because current population of Nigeria is over 4 times larger?
Obviously nothing to do with Western science, engineering and medicine.
Like Starkey said “why are there so many bl**s if they were genocided by Europeans?”
Maybe unherd should commission article from BLM to tell us?
Thanks. Afraid I only saw the echoes in old school books and geography lessons studying agriculture in Malawi (along with crofting in Scotland and a quite fun sort of game where we picked oil drilling squares in the North Sea).
But you’ll be delighted to learn that I do own a wash bag with a period world map of the British Empire on it. Haven’t been stopped and challenged about this. Yet.
I think the censorship must kick in randomly after you’ve passed some sort of comment limit. Don’t always agree with you, but it’s always worth reading and you should never be censored.
Probably because current population of Nigeria is over 4 times larger?
Obviously nothing to do with Western science, engineering and medicine.
Like Starkey said “why are there so many bl**s if they were genocided by Europeans?”
Maybe unherd should commission article from BLM to tell us?
Thanks. Afraid I only saw the echoes in old school books and geography lessons studying agriculture in Malawi (along with crofting in Scotland and a quite fun sort of game where we picked oil drilling squares in the North Sea).
But you’ll be delighted to learn that I do own a wash bag with a period world map of the British Empire on it. Haven’t been stopped and challenged about this. Yet.
I think the censorship must kick in randomly after you’ve passed some sort of comment limit. Don’t always agree with you, but it’s always worth reading and you should never be censored.
I would go for 1960 when we let Nigeria* go.
After that only the minnows were left.
(* Population 45 million in 1960.)
ps. Liam you were 13 then , surely you remember that famous day and year?
pps. Why has this innocuous reply been censored?
Is there any acknowledged “end date” for the British Empire ? I guess you’re the likely authority on that round here. Just curious if mid 1960s would be too late to be blessed/contaminated by the Empire. Of course, this modern hereditary guilt means even our unborn descendents will still be held responsible.
Certainly older that you Liam old chap, assuming you are about 73?
Incidentally when would date the end of the BE?
Off course Wales, NI and Scotland or North Britain as I prefer to call it are “Dediticii”, as the Romans would say, but we mustn’t dwell on that in these sensitive times must we?
Of course you can always compare two different things and look at differences and similarities. There’s no scale of difference which makes it suddenly impossible to compare things when they become “too different”.
I don’t really subscribe to the idea that the US has an “empire” in the traditional sense in any case. What it has had is a pretty much worldwide sphere of influence, which was largely achieved not through conquest and occupation. Yes, it does have an exrtraordinarily large number of overseas military bases in a very large number of countries. But that’s not the same as actually occupying the countries and directly dicating what they can and cannot do.
Perhaps – obligatory British Empire reference – it’s closer to the way we (Britain) first dealt with Egypt – I can’t track down the exact quote where someone (Evelyn Baring ?) said “We don’t rule Egypt. We rule the rulers who rule Egypt”.
If you remember the BE Charlie you must be what, 90 years old? ..I’m assuming your ‘knowledge’ of the empire wasn’t very well developed until you were say 10 years old? Unless your counting Scotland, Wales and NI as imperial colonies?
Nothing adolescent about it you just CANNOT compare the two.
Nor for that matter could you make such a comparison with say the late, lamented British Empire, which I for one so fondly remember.
Interesting and useful article.
Bizarre that commentators are already piling in with an almost adolescent anti-Americanism. Nowhere does the article take a partisan pro-US view nordoes it suggest that eveything the US has done was right. It’s a well-balanced view.
Reminds me of the alien spaceship flying past the earth. Looking down, the captain says, “do you know that they’ve got extra-terrestrial vehicles with thermo-nuclear explosives? Co-pilot -“wow, advanced alien intelligence then?” Captain – “Na, exact opposite, they’re aimed at each other”.
Bravo!
Bravo!
Reminds me of the alien spaceship flying past the earth. Looking down, the captain says, “do you know that they’ve got extra-terrestrial vehicles with thermo-nuclear explosives? Co-pilot -“wow, advanced alien intelligence then?” Captain – “Na, exact opposite, they’re aimed at each other”.
“Issuing ideological ultimatums is a sign of decadence, that befits a country that is splitting at the seams politically and with an out-of-control national debt.”
Very well stated! Epitomizes the Washington establishment today!
“Issuing ideological ultimatums is a sign of decadence, that befits a country that is splitting at the seams politically and with an out-of-control national debt.”
Very well stated! Epitomizes the Washington establishment today!
It’s still telling that even in 2023, all the technology the world cannot conquer the formless and the orderless. Not to mention the desolate deserts and mountains of those lands that evade all civilisation. It’s much like trying to conquer Mars or the moon by blowing it up and sitting on it for twenty years, ludicrous and farcical yet still we spent trillions trying to do so.
Again I’m not arguing all the people are without civilisation there. Even bring them to the west and you see they can regularly prosper and join our community, but that place itself is some kind of civilisational black hole of earth.
But at least it is where all empires’ egos go to die… Now that’s something to behold!
It’s still telling that even in 2023, all the technology the world cannot conquer the formless and the orderless. Not to mention the desolate deserts and mountains of those lands that evade all civilisation. It’s much like trying to conquer Mars or the moon by blowing it up and sitting on it for twenty years, ludicrous and farcical yet still we spent trillions trying to do so.
Again I’m not arguing all the people are without civilisation there. Even bring them to the west and you see they can regularly prosper and join our community, but that place itself is some kind of civilisational black hole of earth.
But at least it is where all empires’ egos go to die… Now that’s something to behold!
Lots of people have been portenting the fall of the American imperial moment but it has not arrived yet. The comparison with the Roman Empire is more futile than the comparison with the British. In an age (500yrs) of truly global empires it is the ability to project naval power which is the most important test. Will the US be able to do this in Asia where it doesn’t have a compliant or cowed seaboard (unlike in the Atlantic)? I would suggest not.
Lots of people have been portenting the fall of the American imperial moment but it has not arrived yet. The comparison with the Roman Empire is more futile than the comparison with the British. In an age (500yrs) of truly global empires it is the ability to project naval power which is the most important test. Will the US be able to do this in Asia where it doesn’t have a compliant or cowed seaboard (unlike in the Atlantic)? I would suggest not.
“The Jugurthine War helped presage the end of the Roman Republic.”
We still have Pax Americana – just, but for how long? There is, as someone once said, ‘a lot of ruination in an empire’.
“The Jugurthine War helped presage the end of the Roman Republic.”
We still have Pax Americana – just, but for how long? There is, as someone once said, ‘a lot of ruination in an empire’.
How ridiculous!
To state that there is ANY comparison between Ancient Rome and the US is completely specious and not a little conceited.
As the late Georges Clemenceau* is reported to have said, more than a century ago :”The US is the only nation in history which has gone from barbarism to degeneration without the normal interval of civilisation .”
Has anything changed, or have things actually got worse? Recent evidence seems to indicate the later.**
(* President of France.)
(** The unparalleled barbarism of the Iraq ‘adventure’ being a case in point.)
Agree with you 100%. Rome actually did things, some good and some bad (by today’s standards) but the US just throws money at things. In fact, when it tries to do something it often fails – many stupid wars including Iraq, as you say.
The rise to civilisation and subsequent decline has taken about 100 years – no time at all. If there was a stable point it might have been the 1980s. Within about 30 years of achieving anything it started to believe in the Hollywood image of itself – the Goodies fighting the Baddies. The US is now a joke – a very dangerous joke.
Whilst I’m very unhappy with us trajectory in the last 30 years, to dismiss USA like that is a little strong. They have done things too. They built incredible infrastructure (which they have not maintained to sometimes outright destroyed), helped to rebuild western Europe and other countries after WW2 and in philanthropic terms donated huge amounts of money to effective causes (kellog foundation being just one example).
However, the last 30 years have seen them turn away from all that and do all the stupid things (Iraq, etc). if a Rome comparison were used, we could be looking at the third century crisis. Endless wars and succession with little infrastructure or development.
Rome still came back after that in the fourth century with Constantine and even a rump empire in Byzantium lasted until 1453, so who knows how long a version of USA power/empire might last.
To Charles’ point about civilisation, if you look at architecture and films of USA from 20s-50s, I would say there was evidence of a spiritual, aware culture that was still looking to create beauty in their environment. All gone now
80 years ago today they landed at great cost on Utah and Omaha beaches. Surely that was something.
and Gold Juno and Sword..
The US led on Omaha and Utah, Britain on Gold and Sword and Canada on Juno. Of course there were also US soldiers involved in the other waves and none of them could have happened without US logistics, intel, bombing raids etc.
The US led on Omaha and Utah, Britain on Gold and Sword and Canada on Juno. Of course there were also US soldiers involved in the other waves and none of them could have happened without US logistics, intel, bombing raids etc.
Absolutely, I didn’t mention it explicitly but hoped my positive view of those events was implied through my point about reconstruction post war. A sacrifice for which we should always be grateful for from that great generation
I am the only person upvoting your comment at time of writing.
Most others clearly don’t appreciate it.
Hate of USA is strong here.
But Russia?
They are such cuddly and cultured people….
Cheers. Although to be historically fair to the Russians, their sacrifice in world war 2 was monumental and should not be forgotten either. And if you want culture from there, Pasternak, solzhenitzhyn, Grossman, Eisenstein are just a few from the last century.
For myself, I certainly hate aspects of the USA, but I hate aspects of most countries I’ve lived in for long enough to gain some understanding, including my own. However, I also appreciate, admire and love the many wonderful aspects too, and wish that the irrational hatred would not lead people to dismiss such places out of hand.
Cheers. Although to be historically fair to the Russians, their sacrifice in world war 2 was monumental and should not be forgotten either. And if you want culture from there, Pasternak, solzhenitzhyn, Grossman, Eisenstein are just a few from the last century.
For myself, I certainly hate aspects of the USA, but I hate aspects of most countries I’ve lived in for long enough to gain some understanding, including my own. However, I also appreciate, admire and love the many wonderful aspects too, and wish that the irrational hatred would not lead people to dismiss such places out of hand.
I am the only person upvoting your comment at time of writing.
Most others clearly don’t appreciate it.
Hate of USA is strong here.
But Russia?
They are such cuddly and cultured people….
It counted for far more than you imagine! It cost European countries their independence not only militarily but economically..
Not quite sure what your comment is replying to.
But do you mean the Eastern European countries which actually lost their freedom and independence for over 40 years and got to live under the actual occupation of a real empire (the Soviet Union’s one) ? Or the Western European countries which were liberated and recovered their freedom and independence ?
What independence?
You would be speaking either German or Russian now if it was not for USA.
Not quite sure what your comment is replying to.
But do you mean the Eastern European countries which actually lost their freedom and independence for over 40 years and got to live under the actual occupation of a real empire (the Soviet Union’s one) ? Or the Western European countries which were liberated and recovered their freedom and independence ?
What independence?
You would be speaking either German or Russian now if it was not for USA.
Given the ongoing spewing hatred of all things Russian in the MSM (and elsewhere) it is worth noting the following.
On 22nd June 1941 3,800,000 Nazi troops started the invasion of the Soviet Union. Without the extraordinary sacrifice of ~25,000,000 Russian lives from June 1941 to May 1945 there would now be no Britain, France, Belgium, Holland, Finland, Estonia, Poland etc etc.
These territories would be merely lander of the Great Third Reich and we would be all writing in German. There would be monuments throughout the lands dedicated to that wonderful visionary leader – A.H.
I am struggling to find the appropriate language to describe the situation but somehow the word ‘ingrates’ keeps popping up in every sentence I try to put together.
I suggest you refresh on the Soviet Union’s active participation in the start of WWII by its joint invasion of Poland in September 1939 following the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact before breaking out the violins and claiming victim status for the USSR.
Then ask the countries of Eastern Europe just how grateful they are for over 40 years of occupation and enslavement under the USSR empire after their “liberation”. Start by asking the Poles.
In case it isn’t yet clear from the current absolute incompetence of Russian leadership in Ukraine, a pretty high percentage of that 25 million will have been self-inflicted. Recall that they used to have political troops just behind the front lines shooting any of their own troops who retreated. Recall the appalling treatment of returning Soviet POWs when they returned home after the war.
I am sorry but Soviet Union started ww2 with Hitler by invading Poland.
Then it supplied German war machine when Germany invaded other European countries.
Your lies about Baltic States and Finland are equally disgusting.
All this countries were invaded by Soviet Union.
Then Soviets were persuading Communist party members to sabotage war effort against Germany because Soviet Russia was Germany ally.
Then Soviets murdered millions including Polish army officers, University professors etc in Katyn and other places.
After ww2 when Western Europe enjoyed democracy and Marshal Plan Aid, Eastern Europe was subjugated by Stalin.
So I describe situation for you.
You are nothing more but “Sovietskaya scatina”…
I suggest you refresh on the Soviet Union’s active participation in the start of WWII by its joint invasion of Poland in September 1939 following the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact before breaking out the violins and claiming victim status for the USSR.
Then ask the countries of Eastern Europe just how grateful they are for over 40 years of occupation and enslavement under the USSR empire after their “liberation”. Start by asking the Poles.
In case it isn’t yet clear from the current absolute incompetence of Russian leadership in Ukraine, a pretty high percentage of that 25 million will have been self-inflicted. Recall that they used to have political troops just behind the front lines shooting any of their own troops who retreated. Recall the appalling treatment of returning Soviet POWs when they returned home after the war.
I am sorry but Soviet Union started ww2 with Hitler by invading Poland.
Then it supplied German war machine when Germany invaded other European countries.
Your lies about Baltic States and Finland are equally disgusting.
All this countries were invaded by Soviet Union.
Then Soviets were persuading Communist party members to sabotage war effort against Germany because Soviet Russia was Germany ally.
Then Soviets murdered millions including Polish army officers, University professors etc in Katyn and other places.
After ww2 when Western Europe enjoyed democracy and Marshal Plan Aid, Eastern Europe was subjugated by Stalin.
So I describe situation for you.
You are nothing more but “Sovietskaya scatina”…
Yes, this supposedly cultured Europeans slagging USA off forget that.
USA saved Europe ass in two world wars and then rebuild it and protect it against Russia.
European civilisation gave us many great things but Naz**m and Communism and millions of deaths as well.
But let’s not worry about it, let’s slag off America while using technology which was mostly invented and developed there.
Poor French they had Minitel….
Not forgotten by this European Andrew.
Their name liveth for evermore.
Small disagreement on world war 1. Wilson’s insistence on nation-states did more harm than good in Versailles treaty and didn’t help to rebuild at all. Also not entirely true they saved Europe, but helped France and UK yet over the finishing line on western front. Germany was already prett exhausted when USA entered (although is blockades helped enormously).
As to WW2, we agreed before that USA saved and rebuilt Europe (helped save USSR too).
As to the French, they have their uses by disagreeing with prevailing opinion. They were completely right on Iraq (although woefully misguided on Libya)
Not forgotten by this European Andrew.
Their name liveth for evermore.
Small disagreement on world war 1. Wilson’s insistence on nation-states did more harm than good in Versailles treaty and didn’t help to rebuild at all. Also not entirely true they saved Europe, but helped France and UK yet over the finishing line on western front. Germany was already prett exhausted when USA entered (although is blockades helped enormously).
As to WW2, we agreed before that USA saved and rebuilt Europe (helped save USSR too).
As to the French, they have their uses by disagreeing with prevailing opinion. They were completely right on Iraq (although woefully misguided on Libya)
and Gold Juno and Sword..
Absolutely, I didn’t mention it explicitly but hoped my positive view of those events was implied through my point about reconstruction post war. A sacrifice for which we should always be grateful for from that great generation
It counted for far more than you imagine! It cost European countries their independence not only militarily but economically..
Given the ongoing spewing hatred of all things Russian in the MSM (and elsewhere) it is worth noting the following.
On 22nd June 1941 3,800,000 Nazi troops started the invasion of the Soviet Union. Without the extraordinary sacrifice of ~25,000,000 Russian lives from June 1941 to May 1945 there would now be no Britain, France, Belgium, Holland, Finland, Estonia, Poland etc etc.
These territories would be merely lander of the Great Third Reich and we would be all writing in German. There would be monuments throughout the lands dedicated to that wonderful visionary leader – A.H.
I am struggling to find the appropriate language to describe the situation but somehow the word ‘ingrates’ keeps popping up in every sentence I try to put together.
Yes, this supposedly cultured Europeans slagging USA off forget that.
USA saved Europe ass in two world wars and then rebuild it and protect it against Russia.
European civilisation gave us many great things but Naz**m and Communism and millions of deaths as well.
But let’s not worry about it, let’s slag off America while using technology which was mostly invented and developed there.
Poor French they had Minitel….
Okay we’ll grant you a brief, minor culture and maybe mini Eastern and Western empires as well, ie New England and Greater California but the Americans Barbarians will surely overrun the middle and South, not so much Visigoth, more Misbegotten?
Wonderful article, explaining clearly about the situation prevailing around us, in simple words,is something which I had never experienced.
Thanks for the lovely articles. Await more from you. Kindly try to compress the size
Regards,
Janakiraman.V
99433 56779
80 years ago today they landed at great cost on Utah and Omaha beaches. Surely that was something.
Okay we’ll grant you a brief, minor culture and maybe mini Eastern and Western empires as well, ie New England and Greater California but the Americans Barbarians will surely overrun the middle and South, not so much Visigoth, more Misbegotten?
Wonderful article, explaining clearly about the situation prevailing around us, in simple words,is something which I had never experienced.
Thanks for the lovely articles. Await more from you. Kindly try to compress the size
Regards,
Janakiraman.V
99433 56779
Your cartoonish black and white view of the US is actually worse than the false picture you paint of the US as seeing the world as only “Goodies and Baddies”.
I sometimes wonder if people who hold such views of the US have actually ever spent much time in the US.
To suggest that the US has made no positive contributions to the world over the past 100 years is both ludicrous and ignorant.
Of course the US has done good all over the world ..a great many corrupt tyrants became very wealthy and armed to the teeth as a result of US generosity. If you want to scam your victims it’s a good ploy to offer a few freebies first.
Sadly, there are 8 million or so dead who didn’t do so well having been bombed, assassinated, invaded and starved; and a few hundred million more whose resources were looted.. but we don’t need to count those.
Ask your average American how many died in Vietnam and you’ll get an immediate answer: 58,000. The correct answer of course is three million and 58,000 but who counts gooks eh? That sums up the American (and Israeli) mindset.. the rest of us are just dross!
Then on other side of the ledger USA help to defeat Na*is, rebuild Europe and contain Soviets.
Communist and Na*is killed well over hundred millions together.
But that is not your problem, is it?
USA is.
Then on other side of the ledger USA help to defeat Na*is, rebuild Europe and contain Soviets.
Communist and Na*is killed well over hundred millions together.
But that is not your problem, is it?
USA is.
Of course the US has done good all over the world ..a great many corrupt tyrants became very wealthy and armed to the teeth as a result of US generosity. If you want to scam your victims it’s a good ploy to offer a few freebies first.
Sadly, there are 8 million or so dead who didn’t do so well having been bombed, assassinated, invaded and starved; and a few hundred million more whose resources were looted.. but we don’t need to count those.
Ask your average American how many died in Vietnam and you’ll get an immediate answer: 58,000. The correct answer of course is three million and 58,000 but who counts gooks eh? That sums up the American (and Israeli) mindset.. the rest of us are just dross!
..a brief glance at its (wouldbe) leaders seems to confirm that image.. with the notable exception of RFK jnr who, I expect will be shafted if he’s lucky (like Sanders) or assassinated if he isn’t like his father and uncle.
Whilst I’m very unhappy with us trajectory in the last 30 years, to dismiss USA like that is a little strong. They have done things too. They built incredible infrastructure (which they have not maintained to sometimes outright destroyed), helped to rebuild western Europe and other countries after WW2 and in philanthropic terms donated huge amounts of money to effective causes (kellog foundation being just one example).
However, the last 30 years have seen them turn away from all that and do all the stupid things (Iraq, etc). if a Rome comparison were used, we could be looking at the third century crisis. Endless wars and succession with little infrastructure or development.
Rome still came back after that in the fourth century with Constantine and even a rump empire in Byzantium lasted until 1453, so who knows how long a version of USA power/empire might last.
To Charles’ point about civilisation, if you look at architecture and films of USA from 20s-50s, I would say there was evidence of a spiritual, aware culture that was still looking to create beauty in their environment. All gone now
Your cartoonish black and white view of the US is actually worse than the false picture you paint of the US as seeing the world as only “Goodies and Baddies”.
I sometimes wonder if people who hold such views of the US have actually ever spent much time in the US.
To suggest that the US has made no positive contributions to the world over the past 100 years is both ludicrous and ignorant.
..a brief glance at its (wouldbe) leaders seems to confirm that image.. with the notable exception of RFK jnr who, I expect will be shafted if he’s lucky (like Sanders) or assassinated if he isn’t like his father and uncle.
Never mind Charlie, I gave you an uptick.. I’d thought that was Gandhi’s quote? ..perhaps he plagiarised it from Clemenceau?
Your correct Liam old chap, there is some dispute about the origin of this apposite quote.
I think it more likely it was Clemenceau, given his somewhat acerbic temperament.
Your correct Liam old chap, there is some dispute about the origin of this apposite quote.
I think it more likely it was Clemenceau, given his somewhat acerbic temperament.
But then France is really jealous of USA success.
I noticed your low opinion of unherd readers with frequent explanation of most basic facts of history.
Civilisation in Europe? Yes, great paintings and music. Literature in USA is not that inferior.
Then European Civilisation gave us 2 World wars, Naz**m, Auschwitz and Communism and millions of deaths.
So I would say that Clemenceau is a little French p***k.
We have another one in office now.
No nation in modern history has drunk so deeply from the well of national humiliation as the French.
Thus I agree with you ‘they’ can be remarkably ungrateful and chippy towards their saviours!
They are also obsessed with the idea of an Anglo-Saxon conspiracy which sadly is purely motivated by jealousy.
As to the US it has done splendidly in many fields, which is why ‘many of my lot’ still regard it as a sort of prodigal son! Ridiculous really, but there it is.
USA is an offspring of European civilisation. Yes, Europe did give rise to great evils, but that is partly due to geography and resources being fought over on a land mass where sometimes there are no natural barriers and huge crossover of ethnic and linguistic groups who can suddenly turn on one another.
If you look at Switzerland with it’s mountains, UK as an island or Norway being so isolated, they all escaped succumbing to these extremes (bar Norway’s occupation in WW2).
The great fortune of the USA was lack of enemies north and south after mid 19th century and huge oceans either side. This allowed USA to build up it’s great experiment and foster one of the most dynamic and democratic places that has ever existed based on the very best of European values.
Of course France is jealous, but most importantly it is different linguistically, culturally and politically. That is what leads to disagreements and a different way of looking at things. Happily that difference from Anglo Saxon world is what led them to help US in indépendance war, and as I said, gave us the US experiment.
Lastly, Clemenceau was alright – was an opponent of colonialism so he can’t be all that bad.
No nation in modern history has drunk so deeply from the well of national humiliation as the French.
Thus I agree with you ‘they’ can be remarkably ungrateful and chippy towards their saviours!
They are also obsessed with the idea of an Anglo-Saxon conspiracy which sadly is purely motivated by jealousy.
As to the US it has done splendidly in many fields, which is why ‘many of my lot’ still regard it as a sort of prodigal son! Ridiculous really, but there it is.
USA is an offspring of European civilisation. Yes, Europe did give rise to great evils, but that is partly due to geography and resources being fought over on a land mass where sometimes there are no natural barriers and huge crossover of ethnic and linguistic groups who can suddenly turn on one another.
If you look at Switzerland with it’s mountains, UK as an island or Norway being so isolated, they all escaped succumbing to these extremes (bar Norway’s occupation in WW2).
The great fortune of the USA was lack of enemies north and south after mid 19th century and huge oceans either side. This allowed USA to build up it’s great experiment and foster one of the most dynamic and democratic places that has ever existed based on the very best of European values.
Of course France is jealous, but most importantly it is different linguistically, culturally and politically. That is what leads to disagreements and a different way of looking at things. Happily that difference from Anglo Saxon world is what led them to help US in indépendance war, and as I said, gave us the US experiment.
Lastly, Clemenceau was alright – was an opponent of colonialism so he can’t be all that bad.
Agree with you 100%. Rome actually did things, some good and some bad (by today’s standards) but the US just throws money at things. In fact, when it tries to do something it often fails – many stupid wars including Iraq, as you say.
The rise to civilisation and subsequent decline has taken about 100 years – no time at all. If there was a stable point it might have been the 1980s. Within about 30 years of achieving anything it started to believe in the Hollywood image of itself – the Goodies fighting the Baddies. The US is now a joke – a very dangerous joke.
Never mind Charlie, I gave you an uptick.. I’d thought that was Gandhi’s quote? ..perhaps he plagiarised it from Clemenceau?
But then France is really jealous of USA success.
I noticed your low opinion of unherd readers with frequent explanation of most basic facts of history.
Civilisation in Europe? Yes, great paintings and music. Literature in USA is not that inferior.
Then European Civilisation gave us 2 World wars, Naz**m, Auschwitz and Communism and millions of deaths.
So I would say that Clemenceau is a little French p***k.
We have another one in office now.
How ridiculous!
To state that there is ANY comparison between Ancient Rome and the US is completely specious and not a little conceited.
As the late Georges Clemenceau* is reported to have said, more than a century ago :”The US is the only nation in history which has gone from barbarism to degeneration without the normal interval of civilisation .”
Has anything changed, or have things actually got worse? Recent evidence seems to indicate the later.**
(* President of France.)
(** The unparalleled barbarism of the Iraq ‘adventure’ being a case in point.)
“And yet, the Biden Administration … is actually demanding that all countries in the world become democracies”. Really?
This article is beyond stupid.
“There is a pattern in all of this: great power wars strengthen a nation and relatively smaller expeditionary wars dissipate it.” WWII did not strengthen the US; the aftermath of it did. So, the author is suggesting that blowing up the world and killing millions of people is a means of strengthening a nation. Ridiculous! Prosperity through nuclear destruction, great idea.
“Issuing ideological ultimatums is a sign of decadence, that befits a country that is splitting at the seams politically and with an out-of-control national debt.” This has to be the dumbest sentence I have ever read! It makes zero sense. Whether or not you agree with US foreign policy, standing up for representative government and human rights is not decadent and has nothing to do with polarization or debt. Kissinger’s foreign policy of realpolitik is responsible for war crimes from the bombing of Cambodia to the torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
What is truly dangerous is intellectuals who look back at the last century and draw all the wrong conclusions and then make specious comparisons to ancient history to justify nonsense.
This article is beyond stupid.
“There is a pattern in all of this: great power wars strengthen a nation and relatively smaller expeditionary wars dissipate it.” WWII did not strengthen the US; the aftermath of it did. So, the author is suggesting that blowing up the world and killing millions of people is a means of strengthening a nation. Ridiculous! Prosperity through nuclear destruction, great idea.
“Issuing ideological ultimatums is a sign of decadence, that befits a country that is splitting at the seams politically and with an out-of-control national debt.” This has to be the dumbest sentence I have ever read! It makes zero sense. Whether or not you agree with US foreign policy, standing up for representative government and human rights is not decadent and has nothing to do with polarization or debt. Kissinger’s foreign policy of realpolitik is responsible for war crimes from the bombing of Cambodia to the torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib.
What is truly dangerous is intellectuals who look back at the last century and draw all the wrong conclusions and then make specious comparisons to ancient history to justify nonsense.
Quick look at the map, clearly shows that USA is not even remotely in position of Rome.
Who is going to invade USA (militarily)?
Then is the question of resources.
Rome needed a lot of imports, USA not really if it wanted to avoid it (globalisation was the decision of USA rulling class, stupid, but their decision).
Then is the timing. Rome was still dominant empire for at least 300 years after defeating Carthage.
What will most likely destroy USA is mass immigration of low IQ people from South America and resulting change of cultural makeup of the population.
But then Europe is well down this road importing even worse benefit scroungers.
Looking at possible competitors of USA who can dominate?
China? Blockade the trade routes and China is finished in a year or so.
One thing you have to admire about Romans rulling classes.
They had a clear vision of the danger Cathage posed and dealt with it.
Do leaders of USA in the last 30 years had similar vision.
Obviously not, just look at rise of China.
Quick look at the map, clearly shows that USA is not even remotely in position of Rome.
Who is going to invade USA (militarily)?
Then is the question of resources.
Rome needed a lot of imports, USA not really if it wanted to avoid it (globalisation was the decision of USA rulling class, stupid, but their decision).
Then is the timing. Rome was still dominant empire for at least 300 years after defeating Carthage.
What will most likely destroy USA is mass immigration of low IQ people from South America and resulting change of cultural makeup of the population.
But then Europe is well down this road importing even worse benefit scroungers.
Looking at possible competitors of USA who can dominate?
China? Blockade the trade routes and China is finished in a year or so.
One thing you have to admire about Romans rulling classes.
They had a clear vision of the danger Cathage posed and dealt with it.
Do leaders of USA in the last 30 years had similar vision.
Obviously not, just look at rise of China.
Civilisations decline beause the spirit of the people decline. Spirit declines when the ruling class have no longer been tempered by adversity and they are no longer prepared to die for the civilisation. When the ruling class class use their wealth to evade life or death challenges ; the civilisation dies.
When the Equites and Senatorial classes refused to send their sons to fight and die on the frontier from about 300 AD, the Empire was in decline. Why should the poor die if the rich refuse to aquire martial valour and die fighting to defend the Empire? In WW1, 20 % of British aristocracy died compared to 5% for the ranks and 27 % of Harrovians died, the highest of any school. Orwell pointed out that more aristocrats were were killed than left wing middle class intellectuals in WW2.
The USA forced Britain to sell all it’s overseas possesions which included 20 % of the USA stock market, all of the tool making industries and we handed over the the secrets free- atomic fission, jet engines and latest radar plus others – see Tizard Commission . Britain undertook most of the initial research into atomic bombs and people such as William Penney undertook much of the most vital research. Yet due to an act passed by Congress , British scientists were banned from taking their norebooks or any plans back to the UK after the war. This gave the USA a massive economic advantage. The question is does the USA have sufficient number of people blessed with genius such as Michelangelo, Newton, Mozart, James Watt, G Stephenson, Faraday, Clerk Maxwell, etc. For a population of 330 M much of those living within inner cities are poorly educated. Also much of the undergradaute and post graduate technical and scientific skills depend upon foreigners ?
30% of the Indian Army comprised Muslims. My Father played cricket for a Pakistani’s General team in the 1960s who was very proud to have served and fought in the British Army in WW2.
What the author fails to recognise is the inability of Americans to earn the loyalty of foreigners to fight to the death for the USA . One of the tests of an Empire is whether leaders earn the respect and loyaty of foreigners such that they will die for it- Rome achieved this, Greece did not.? Proof in the case of Britain was the large numbers of VCs, GCs and Indian Order of Merit First Class plus other awards for gallantry – Noor Inayat Khan GC and Sher Shah Awan VC to name but a few.
Americans need to learn one cannot buy loyalty, only earn it.
The answer is yes, but baseball caps, fat people, hollywood and porn will not quite make the same impact on history as Latin, roman law, buildings, roads…..
Ps even the lions would have choked at the horror of having to eat Trump or Biden…
Given its status as the world’s largest economy, can one state that the U.S. has been weakened by dabbling in regional conflicts? Undeniably, “the national interest in defending Ukraine and Taiwan is clearly much more obvious than toppling an Iraqi dictator or staying militarily engaged in Afghanistan for two decades”.
Kissinger was justified in deterrance and it is senseless to expect widespread democratic reform world-wide. The optimal position is one of strength and maintaining the status quo without depleting war capabilities.