What’s your understanding of recent reports of anti-Putin Russian soldiers making independent raids into Russian territory? Are they acting with the endorsement of the Ukrainian government?
Let’s be realistic, can we say that we like what they’re doing? Yes, of course, because the inroads into Belgorod region is something that truly helps Ukraine. I’m originally from Kharkiv. Kharkiv is the second biggest city in Ukraine, or at least it used to be. It’s literally 40 kilometres away from the Russian border, and it has a border in Belgorod region from the Russian side. And Kharkiv has been shelled from Belgorod for 15 months now almost every day. Even if this war ends tomorrow, and Russian troops withdraw completely into Russian territory, Kharkiv will always be within reach of the Russian artillery. They don’t even need missiles to hit Kharkiv. So the idea that this Free Russia Legion have been promoting, that we want to make a demilitarised territory in Belgorod, is very close to my heart as a person born and raised in Kharkiv. I am not privy but I would guess that yes, there is some sort of coordination with Ukrainian military and intelligence.
It looks like they were using Humvees and American hardware, which is where it gets controversial, because, obviously, the West has been providing this equipment on the idea that they wouldn’t be used beyond the Russian border. And now it looks like they are, what should people in the West make of that?
I was following very closely whether there will be any negative reaction on that from the American side. And it seems like they keep on saying “we’re investigating.” So that is as much reaction as we got from the American authorities, at least from the American administration. People need to understand that, even if this is happening, we are within our right to protect ourselves. We never wanted to be anywhere apart from Ukraine, we never wanted to invade Russia, we never have been a threat to Russia. But now our whole livelihoods have been destroyed, our lives have been destroyed. And we need to do everything possible for us to survive. There is no way that we want anyone to go through what we are going through. I know there are opposition voices in some countries, even pro-Russian groups claiming Ukraine wants to drag other countries into this conflict. No, we don’t even want to be in this conflict. We don’t want this war for ourselves. We definitely don’t want other countries to experience what we are experiencing. And what we have to do is to stop this war and the only way to stop is to win militarily. And if there are any actions that have forced Russians to relocate their forces, let’s say in Belgorod from Ukrainian territory, then it’s good for us because then they relocate within their territory, but then we can liberate our territory somewhere else.
So are incursions into Russian territory an inevitable part of any Ukrainian victory plan?
I don’t know the whole plan. What I am sure of is that we’re not planning to take over any Russian territory, that’s for sure. We don’t want that. We don’t need that. We don’t want the people living in those territories to be part of our country. Trust me, we don’t want that. All we want is to liberate the territory that is ours within internationally recognised borders. So no, we’re definitely not planning a raid towards Moscow. That I’m absolutely sure of, but can there be some tactical moves to force Russians to relocate their forces and thus help us liberate our territories? Yes, that is within the realm of possible.
You recently Tweeted about the drone attack that happened on the Kremlin, saying “Ukrainians have two big dreams. One: to win the war Two: to see how the Kremlin burns. The second dream almost came true last night, Russian media report that Kremlin caught fire. Nice. To be continued?” Will you expand on that?
I mean, there are multiple memes and multiple pictures you will see of the Kremlin burning. Do we imagine that? Yes, trust me, they have taken so much away from us, so destroying this centre of evil is something that we would like to happen, but it doesn’t mean that we want to do it ourselves. A pro-Russian group that wants to change the regime in Russia, they should be doing that. All we want is to make sure that they leave us alone. That is as far as we can dream of. So yeah, to be continued? Yes, I believe that there will be some action happening in Russia. And it needs to happen for the Russian regime to change, it needs to happen. But trust me, we don’t want to be doing this ourselves. It’s too costly. My partner is with the army. I don’t want him to liberate Moscow, I don’t want him to go anywhere beyond the Ukrainian border. That’s as much as we all want to happen. So I think anything apart from that is just tactical moves that aim at the single goal, which is liberating our territory.
Here’s where it gets difficult and sensitive, because if the goal is to get Western support to continue and weapons to carry on flooding in, it’s important that you also don’t spook your Western supporters. Do you think there’s a danger there, with actions such as this?
I understand the question, I understand where the concern can come from. Yet again, everybody in the West needs to understand that we are not moving outside of our territory into the East, that’s 100% sure. Everything else is tactical moves that help us liberate our territory. That is the only thing that we all want. I don’t want my partner to be within Russian borders. I don’t want that. I don’t want anyone else with a Ukrainian passport to be on the Russian side of the border. They have to deal with their regime by themselves. We don’t want to deal with that. And I believe that as long as this is the only goal that we are pursuing, which is to liberate Ukrainian territories, I understand there is lots of very intense communication between the military commands in Ukraine and in the US and the UK and the EU. And I believe that our military command explains that certain details of the plan of how we are going to liberate our territory. And I believe that as long as as Western military commands understand that this is our military plan, and that we are not going anywhere beyond our own border, then they are fine with that and we are not going anywhere beyond — we are not liberating Russia, trust me.
So you think the West will have a tolerance for what are considered tactical moves inside Russian territory as long as it doesn’t look like an actual attempt to seize territory?
There have not been any major backlashes from the Western side about that. I’m a member of the opposition party in parliament. I’m not making military decisions, and I’m not privy to all those communications. But I believe that for the West, it’s important to see that the only thing we’re doing is in line with this big goal, which is basically helping us win the war and liberating our own territory. And so it seems to me that they see that this is what is happening right now, that we’re not doing anything more than that.
Presumably, by ‘our own territory’, you mean the full, internationally recognised, pre-2014 Ukrainian borders? That includes Crimea. Is that a universal opinion in the Ukrainian elite — that recapturing Crimea is an integral part of what you would consider an acceptable outcome?
Yes, there is no debate about that. Crimea is part of the Ukrainian territory. It was annexed illegally with the whole world ignoring this, unfortunately. And we need to get Crimea back for multiple reasons. Reason number one, which is probably most important, is, strategically, if Russians continue to control Crimea, they will always use it as their military base from which they can launch yet another attack in five years. So if we stop there, and Russians just keep Crimea, they will continue militarising it. And then we will always, always be living under this threat that this can happen again. And I don’t want this to happen in the lifetime of my son. He’s going to be 18 in eight years. So I don’t want him to fight this war again. We want to be done with this. So strategically, from the military strategic standpoint, we need to control this territory. Secondly, of course, it’s international law. We cannot just allow another country to redraw borders. Not just for us, but also for the whole world order. And thirdly, which is no less important, Crimea is the native land of Crimean Tatars. It’s an ethnic minority within Ukraine. Crimean Tatars are literally called ‘Crimean Tatars’. That is the only territory which is their homeland. Russians deported them in 1946 and they continue to do this right now. There are thousands of Crimean Tatars in prison now, just because they’re Tatars. So we have to bring some justice to these people as well.
Still, there are sensible, senior people within Western governments, by no means Russian apologists, in the British administration, French and I believe American as well, who take a slightly different view. They think that full recapturing of Crimea is not realistic or likely as an outcome in this conflict. And that, actually, the escalation risk of trying to make that happen is not worth it, given that it’s such a vast Russian military base and is considered now such an integral part of their worldview. What do you say to those people?
We are not suicidal. My son lives here in Ukraine. I never moved him out of the country. He has been here since day one of the big war, he has been out of the country for five days, all the rest of the time he is here. So trust me: if I were to see that there is some escalation, a nuclear threat potential, the first thing I would do is take my son away. And I think that everybody watching this will understand the feeling. And of course, I don’t want to lead to the situation where this threat can actually be realistic. Chernobyl is literally two hours drive from here. We are the only country in the world that understands very clearly what a nuclear threat is. We don’t want that to happen again. And here, I get back to your initial question, is there a debate inside the Ukrainian political field about Crimea? There is no debate that we need to get Crimea back but there is a debate about how we do this. Do we wait till Putin dies? And then we do this: this is one scenario. And this is realistic, and that can be an acceptable scenario under some circumstances, right? If there is a chance that we take it back militarily, ensuring that there is no nuclear escalation? Yeah, we can go down this path. So there are debates about how exactly we can do this. And I think that is correct; again, none of us is suicidal, none of us wants to be living through this. So I think the right debate about how to achieve this goal is just that we don’t debate the goal itself. And that is the message that I would like to convey to the West.
So, would you be worried, then, if there was a straightforward military incursion into Crimea, about the risk of nuclear escalation? Do you think that is a legitimate fear?
It is a legitimate fear, I have the tablets that you need to take in case of a nuclear event, not something I wanted to have in my home. That’s very scary, but so far our military command and our intelligence have been pretty smart. And I continue to trust that our military and intelligence will make sure that if they make the decision to go into Crimea, it will be based on understanding that it will not lead to nuclear escalation. That is something that none of us wants here, none of us. And neither do the military command.
One scenario which you almost hinted at there is that the conflict might freeze in some state where the long term objectives (like retaking Crimea) remain in place but the fighting stops? Do you think that is plausible?
It is plausible. However, it’s not the best outcome. Why? Because we have to remember that, for us, we are leaving in the ninth year of war. For us the war started in 2014. So for us, this has already been a frozen conflict. And living in a country which is in a frozen conflict is very unpleasant. It’s an impediment to economic development: you always have to find different solutions. I’ll give you a very simple example of the way it stalls all the other things that need to be happening in Ukrainian society. I served as First Deputy Minister of Education and Science in 2014-2016. Half of my work was literally making up rules and procedures for kids from occupied territory in Crimea and from occupied territories in Donbas, to make sure that they can get into Ukrainian universities. It’s like 10% of the kids, but it takes up 50-60% of the workings of the ministry to make sure that you come up with some sort of solutions for those kids. And it’s the same for the Ministry of Public Health: what do we do with people who had Covid there? Do we treat them? Having this frozen conflict, it always takes away a huge part of the resources of the country, both mental, administrative, political as well, because, every time, this raises the issue politically. So also living in a country which does have a frozen military conflict, it means that the country will not be developing. And this is very sad. And this will mean that people will continue to leave, and that they will not come back. The economy will collapse. So I don’t want this to turn into frozen conflict.
I suppose it must be even sadder to be living in a country where people are dying in their thousands and tens of thousands because of an all-out war though? So, I guess in the scale of tragedy, would that be preferable to an ongoing war that lasts years and years?
Preferably, we would not be in any sort of war. It’s just extremely unfair that we have to do this, and we have to live through this. We never chose to do this, we never chose this to be our path. And I think that is what the world needs to remember: the world needs to help those who were attacked without any provocation. And I think we need to stop this, and we need to make sure that Russia just leaves us alone and does whatever they want within their territory. Because, given the choice of living in a frozen conflict, or in an active war zone, I don’t want either option. I want to live in my own country, and deal with our own society and how we develop, like any other country. It’s extremely unfair that we are presented with these two choices, neither of them you want for your children to live in.
Let me ask about a future scenario, because we don’t often talk or think about what might happen later, after such a deal may or may not be struck. How secure do you think President Zelenskyy is? Is there any concern that ultra-nationalist groups that are now very well-armed by the West might not accept a peace deal or frozen conflict scenario?
I don’t understand which “ultra-nationalist” groups are very well-armed. The only groups that are armed in Ukraine are the Ukrainian army. You call them ultra-nationalists, because they fight for our country. Well, then all other armies in the world are also ultra-nationalists in that case. But it’s difficult to speculate about that, because we don’t know what sort of solutions there might be, under what circumstances and in which situation and in which context. So I think, of course, the only solution that 100% of the society will be happy about is us winning the war, liberating our territory completely, and that’s it. Any other scenario will be unpleasant for some people, that’s for sure. I also believe it will not be the best one that we can get. So we should aim for more, because only more is the only acceptable solution for us, getting our lives back. So it’s kind of difficult to comment on that because there are many unknowns in that and too many variables, even to try to imagine that. I know what we have to do today, tomorrow, in a week from now. Unfortunately, we don’t have solutions to ‘what if’s.
I suppose I wonder, to return to our opening discussion about normal politics, whether you worry that your political opponents in normal times have been empowered during this war time? When peace comes back, you might find there are really quite unsavoury groups and political people that now have a lot more power than they used to.
There are people in power I don’t like. There have been lots of anti-corruption investigations that revealed corruption by certain officials in Ukrainian power. And I don’t want those people to get any more power and I want that to be punished. The good part of that is that those investigations were conducted by official anti-corruption boards that have been established within the last eight years in Ukraine, and which are now producing results. But yeah, I’m not happy about that. Of course I’m not. I want Ukraine to win this war as a democratic state. That’s absolutely a given. We don’t want to win this war as anything less than that. We do have a very strong civil society. And we do have a very strong political tradition, which I’m sure will ensure that this happens. Ukraine will always be democratic; it can be a messy democracy, but we’ll always be democratic. That’s something I’m absolutely sure about. And then we’ll get back to business as usual. Politicians will offer different plans for the country and society will choose which plan they like better. Ukraine now is on its sixth president; Russia is on the second and a half, if you count Medvedev as an independent figure. We are a democracy. We have always been and I’m sure we will continue to be.
How optimistic do you feel now? We’re more than a year into this conflict. What do you think the ending might look like?
We are in the ninth year of this conflict. I know that Ukraine will win, and it will prevail. Because if we don’t, then we just cease to exist. So the only option is where Ukraine is a winner, that’s for sure. And I know what we have to do in order to make this happen, every single one of us, be it politicians, be it people in the army, doctors, teachers, whatever. I also think that this is going to cost us. It does cost us a lot right now. Seeing those deaths and killings and knowing all the details, everything that has happening on the frontline is extremely exhausting. And sometimes we do feel very exhausted. And I’m very tired of all of this but I don’t have any doubts that we will survive, and we will survive as a stronger nation than we were when it all started, as a nation that knows for sure what we are, what we can do, who our friends are and who our enemies are. So that I have no doubts about that. I’m just concerned about the price that we unfortunately have to pay for this.
Inna Sovsun, thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you.
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SubscribeSlava Ukraini! Inna Sovsun proves that in Ukraine, this existential conflict has driven the best to the top.
In politics, the cream and the scum both rise to the top. Ms. Sovun, you are the hope of your nation and therefore, the hope of all who are willing to defend their sovereign self-determination!
God Bless and save you all; you and everyone you love
Slava Ukraini! Inna Sovsun proves that in Ukraine, this existential conflict has driven the best to the top.
In politics, the cream and the scum both rise to the top. Ms. Sovun, you are the hope of your nation and therefore, the hope of all who are willing to defend their sovereign self-determination!
God Bless and save you all; you and everyone you love
Ms Sovsun’s territorial wishes cannot be militarily achieved by Ukraine. I recommend negotiation.
I doubt they’ll ever get Crimea back, but it will be interesting to see how much ground they can recover during the much discussed upcoming offensive, which could be their last chance to make significant territorial gains before the supply of western weapons starts to slow down
What can and cannot be achieved in this war has been constantly overturned. If you suggested negotiations in March of last year, you gave horrendously bad advice.
Maybe you should not be giving advice, perhaps?
I doubt they’ll ever get Crimea back, but it will be interesting to see how much ground they can recover during the much discussed upcoming offensive, which could be their last chance to make significant territorial gains before the supply of western weapons starts to slow down
What can and cannot be achieved in this war has been constantly overturned. If you suggested negotiations in March of last year, you gave horrendously bad advice.
Maybe you should not be giving advice, perhaps?
Ms Sovsun’s territorial wishes cannot be militarily achieved by Ukraine. I recommend negotiation.
The worst case scenario I can see for Ukraine is only being able to isolate Crimea by fire. Then would come negotiations.
If Putin can prevent the pro-Moscow part of the population from fleeing, he might stand a chance. It means draconian, NKVD type punishments, with people shot against the wall.
But if he can keep them there, and most don’t die of thirst or starvation, he might be able to settle for a demilitarized Crimea under nominal Russian control.
All depends on whether the security services don’t collapse, as they did in 1991.
Only time will tell if Putin can finally stop Russia’s rot.
The worst case scenario I can see for Ukraine is only being able to isolate Crimea by fire. Then would come negotiations.
If Putin can prevent the pro-Moscow part of the population from fleeing, he might stand a chance. It means draconian, NKVD type punishments, with people shot against the wall.
But if he can keep them there, and most don’t die of thirst or starvation, he might be able to settle for a demilitarized Crimea under nominal Russian control.
All depends on whether the security services don’t collapse, as they did in 1991.
Only time will tell if Putin can finally stop Russia’s rot.
While you Putin Vestehrers are safe back here in the West, consider the Russian people, and how this is going to utterly destroy their lives.
Putin is past delusional and will soon be overthrown. Once that happens Russians will turn on everyone connected to this war.
Just as they did in 1917, you’ll see mass executions of senior officers. You’ll see trolls burned alive on Red Square, for fooling the people.
Russia has always needed one-man rule, because no Russian can trust any other. They know that what they would do to someone else is what everyone else would do to them.
It’s also now far too late. The border is closed for many, and the air fleet is slowly collapsing. All we can do is prepare for the refugees.
This is going to be the greatest catastrophe of the 21st C.
The greatest catastrophe of the 21st Century.
All fuelled by western war-mongers, like Obama, Biden and Boris Johnson.
Pretty smart to force Putin to invade Ukraine then.
The Hidden Hand of World Capital!”
It was provoked and you know it.
It was provoked and you know it.
Pretty smart to force Putin to invade Ukraine then.
The Hidden Hand of World Capital!”
The greatest catastrophe of the 21st Century.
All fuelled by western war-mongers, like Obama, Biden and Boris Johnson.
While you Putin Vestehrers are safe back here in the West, consider the Russian people, and how this is going to utterly destroy their lives.
Putin is past delusional and will soon be overthrown. Once that happens Russians will turn on everyone connected to this war.
Just as they did in 1917, you’ll see mass executions of senior officers. You’ll see trolls burned alive on Red Square, for fooling the people.
Russia has always needed one-man rule, because no Russian can trust any other. They know that what they would do to someone else is what everyone else would do to them.
It’s also now far too late. The border is closed for many, and the air fleet is slowly collapsing. All we can do is prepare for the refugees.
This is going to be the greatest catastrophe of the 21st C.
I am sure the brave fighters in the Donnas trenches will be proud to know that back in the capital Ms Sovsun is devoting herself to introducing gay marriage.
I am sure the brave fighters in the Donnas trenches will be proud to know that back in the capital Ms Sovsun is devoting herself to introducing gay marriage.
Most below ignore the deep cultural differences between Ukraine and Russia.
Throughout its history, every aspect of Russian society has been dysfunctional. That was the commentary of all Westerners who visited it.
And, as the pinnacle of the Russian state, its Army was always its most incompetent branch. That has been proved again and again. Western armies, even in debacles, always take the enemy capital. Russia rarely does that, at least without allies.
Now, time and again Ukraine runs rings around Putin.
Looks like they may well do it again.
And thank the Lord you’re not Russian. It’s going to get a whole lot worse for all of them.
Most below ignore the deep cultural differences between Ukraine and Russia.
Throughout its history, every aspect of Russian society has been dysfunctional. That was the commentary of all Westerners who visited it.
And, as the pinnacle of the Russian state, its Army was always its most incompetent branch. That has been proved again and again. Western armies, even in debacles, always take the enemy capital. Russia rarely does that, at least without allies.
Now, time and again Ukraine runs rings around Putin.
Looks like they may well do it again.
And thank the Lord you’re not Russian. It’s going to get a whole lot worse for all of them.
Certainly sounds like the grand plan is to continue with total slaughter until the only Ukrainians left are President Zelenskyy Mrs Zelenskyy and their tortoise Alan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblfKREj50o
Brilliant.
This pretty much illustrates the utter futility of Ukrainian’s situation.
Ukraine must negotiate or be completely destroyed.
Like they completely destroy all Russian drones and missiles?
Like they completely destroy all Russian drones and missiles?
Didn’t you say that when Putin was outside Kyiv?
Really rotten recommendation, wasn’t it?
It’s just a matter of time.
Just like in 1944!
The massive Russian Winter/Spring/Fall/Winter/Spring Offensive has swept all before it!
“Na Berlin!!!”
Just like in 1944!
The massive Russian Winter/Spring/Fall/Winter/Spring Offensive has swept all before it!
“Na Berlin!!!”
It’s just a matter of time.
Brilliant.
This pretty much illustrates the utter futility of Ukrainian’s situation.
Ukraine must negotiate or be completely destroyed.
Didn’t you say that when Putin was outside Kyiv?
Really rotten recommendation, wasn’t it?
Certainly sounds like the grand plan is to continue with total slaughter until the only Ukrainians left are President Zelenskyy Mrs Zelenskyy and their tortoise Alan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblfKREj50o
Kudos to Freddie for his decorum with this “head girl” (as Eugyppius might dubb’er) letting us see behind this hopeless curtain. This sticky bur is stayin’under our saddle until the end. It’s stolen our wealth, security and future … but I ain’t accepting it.
Translation please?
The Russians are winning
So you keep saying, the map hasn’t changed in months however despite Putin mobilising 300k men. They lost over 20k men to take a strategically useless Bahkmut, and are resorting to using tanks that are 70 years old. If this is winning I’d hate to see what a defeat looks like
Muh Spring offensive LOL
A concise and well reasoned reply, about on par with the rest of your efforts
You aren’t listening to reason, armchair general.
Don’t you realize half of these folks are graduates from prestigious military academies?
Or they watch Scott Ritter.
Same difference…
You aren’t listening to reason, armchair general.
Don’t you realize half of these folks are graduates from prestigious military academies?
Or they watch Scott Ritter.
Same difference…
A concise and well reasoned reply, about on par with the rest of your efforts
Ukrainian men are dying at a ratio of 7 to 1, maybe more.
It isn’t about territory, the Ukrainian army is trapped and being annihilated by artillery.
Russia has plenty of ammo and the killing fields will continue to wipe out the Ukrainian army.
The only way to stop this is negotiation.
Glad you know so much about offensive warfare!
Colonel Douglas McGregor does.
Consistently wrong for a year and a half!
What better recommendation?
He’s not wrong and you will see.
Faith-based arm-chair generalship…
Not faith. Reality.
Not faith. Reality.
Faith-based arm-chair generalship…
He’s not wrong and you will see.
Dugout Doug?
Colonel Douglas MacGregor was an ardent supporter and planner of the second Iraq war – he seems to like powerful countries proactively invading smaller ones to enact regime change.
Consistently wrong for a year and a half!
What better recommendation?
Dugout Doug?
Colonel Douglas MacGregor was an ardent supporter and planner of the second Iraq war – he seems to like powerful countries proactively invading smaller ones to enact regime change.
Colonel Douglas McGregor does.
Glad you know so much about offensive warfare!
Muh Spring offensive LOL
Ukrainian men are dying at a ratio of 7 to 1, maybe more.
It isn’t about territory, the Ukrainian army is trapped and being annihilated by artillery.
Russia has plenty of ammo and the killing fields will continue to wipe out the Ukrainian army.
The only way to stop this is negotiation.
So you keep saying, the map hasn’t changed in months however despite Putin mobilising 300k men. They lost over 20k men to take a strategically useless Bahkmut, and are resorting to using tanks that are 70 years old. If this is winning I’d hate to see what a defeat looks like
The Russians are winning
Translation please?
Kudos to Freddie for his decorum with this “head girl” (as Eugyppius might dubb’er) letting us see behind this hopeless curtain. This sticky bur is stayin’under our saddle until the end. It’s stolen our wealth, security and future … but I ain’t accepting it.
For those of you that think Russia is responsible for this war, see this.
RINO War-Monger Lindsay Graham addressing the Ukrainian military in 2017.
https://youtube.com/@LiberalHivemind
Lindsey actually bribed Yanukovich to join the EU in 2013.
Also paid Yanukovich to kill the 100 anti-Putin resisters in 2014. Hunter was the bagman.
This is a conspiracy deeper than the Iraq war!
The Hidden Hand…
Lindsey actually bribed Yanukovich to join the EU in 2013.
Also paid Yanukovich to kill the 100 anti-Putin resisters in 2014. Hunter was the bagman.
This is a conspiracy deeper than the Iraq war!
The Hidden Hand…
For those of you that think Russia is responsible for this war, see this.
RINO War-Monger Lindsay Graham addressing the Ukrainian military in 2017.
https://youtube.com/@LiberalHivemind