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How Nato seduced the European Left The anti-war movement has fallen for a progressive circus

Jolie: Christophe Licoppe/Photonews via Getty

Jolie: Christophe Licoppe/Photonews via Getty


May 16, 2023   6 mins

In January 2018, Nato secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg held an unprecedented press conference with Angelina Jolie. While InStyle reported that Jolie “was dressed in a black off-the-shoulder sheath dress, a matching capelet and classic pumps (also black)”, there was a deeper purpose to this meeting: sexual violence in war. The pair had just co-authored a piece for the Guardian entitled “Why NATO must defend women’s rights”. The timing was significant. At the height of the #MeToo movement, the most powerful military alliance in the world had become a feminist ally. “Ending gender-based violence is a vital issue of peace and security as well as of social justice,” they wrote. “NATO can be a leader in this effort.”

This was a new and progressive face for Nato, the same one it has since used to seduce much of the European Left. Previously, in the Nordic countries, Atlanticists have had to sell war and militarism to largely pacifist publics. This was achieved in part by presenting Nato not as a rapacious, pro-war military alliance, but as an enlightened, “progressive” peace alliance. As Timothy Garton Ash effused in the Guardian in 2002, “NATO has become a European peace movement” where one could watch “John Lennon meet George Bush”. Today, by contrast, following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Sweden and Finland abandoned their long-standing traditions of neutrality and opted for membership. Nato is portrayed as a military alliance — and Ukraine a war­ — that even former pacifists can get behind. All its proponents seem to be singing is “Give War a Chance”.

The Jolie campaign marked a dramatic turn in what Katharine A.M. Wright and Annika Bergman Rosamond call “Nato’s strategic narrative” in several ways. First, the alliance embraced celebrity star power for the first time, imbuing its unremarkable brand with elite glamour and beauty. Jolie’s star power meant that the alluring images of the event reached apolitical audiences with little knowledge of Nato. Second, the partnership seemed to usher in an era in which women’s rights, gendered violence and feminism would assume a more prominent role in Nato rhetoric. Since then, and especially in the past 12 months, telegenic female leaders such as the Finnish Prime Minister, Sanna Marin, German Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock, and Estonian Prime Minister, Kaja Kallas, have increasingly served as the spokespersons of enlightened militarism in Europe. The alliance has also intensified its engagement with popular culture, new technologies, and youth influencers.

Of course, Nato has always been PR-conscious, and has long engaged culture, entertainment, and the arts. Who could forget the 1999 album Distant Early Warning from electronic duo Icebreaker International, recorded with funding from the defunct “NATOarts” and inspired by the radar stations along Alaska and Canada’s northern periphery built to alert Nato of an incoming Soviet nuclear strike? Or the 2007 feature film HQ, produced by Nato’s public diplomacy division, which depicts life inside the alliance and a mock diplomatic response to a crisis in the fictional state of Seismania? Just about everyone it turns out. But what makes Nato’s more recent strategic turn so effective is that it has successfully echoed candidate countries’ progressive local traditions and identities.

No political party in Europe better exemplifies the shift from militant pacifism to ardent pro-war Atlanticism than the German Greens. Most of the original Greens had been radicals during the student protests of 1968; many had demonstrated against American wars. The early Greens advocated for West Germany’s withdrawal from Nato. But as the founding members entered middle age, fissures began to appear in the party that would one day tear it apart. Two camps began to coalesce: the “Realos” were the moderate Greens, politically pragmatists. The “Fundis” were the radical, uncompromising camp; they wanted the party to remain faithful to its fundamental values no matter what.

Predictably, the Fundis believed that European peace would be best served by West Germany’s withdrawal from the alliance and tended to favour military neutrality. Meanwhile, the Realos believed that West Germany needed Nato. They even argued that withdrawal would return matters of security to the German nation-state and risk rekindling militaristic nationalism. Their Nato was a post-national, cosmopolitan alliance, speaking numerous languages and flying a multitude of flags, protecting Europe from Germany’s most destructive impulses. But Nato membership at the end of history was one thing. Germany going to war again — the most forbidden of taboos after World War II — was something else entirely.

Kosovo changed everything. In 1999 — the 50th anniversary of Nato’s founding — the alliance began what academic Merje Kuus has called a “discursive metamorphosis”. From the mere defensive alliance it was during the Cold War, it was becoming an active military compact concerned with spreading and defending values such as human rights, democracy, peace, and freedom well beyond the borders of its member states. The 78-day Nato bombing of what remained of Yugoslavia, ostensibly to halt war crimes committed by Serbian security forces in Kosovo, would forever transform the German Greens.

At a chaotic May 1999 party conference in Bielefeld, the Realos and Fundis fought bitterly over the bombing. Green Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer, the most prominent Realo, supported Nato’s war; for this, conference attendees pelted him with red paint. The Fundis’ proposal called for an unconditional cessation of the bombing, which would have also meant the collapse of the Green-Social Democratic Party (SDP) coalition government. The peace proposal failed, crushing the anti-war faction of the party, who would leave the Greens in droves. Instead, the Realos’ moderate resolution triumphed by a comfortable margin. After a brief pause, the bombing of Yugoslavia was allowed to continue. With the Greens’ crucial support, the Luftwaffe flew sorties over Belgrade, 58 years after their last aerial bombardment of the Serbian capital. It was the first German military operation undertaken in Europe since the Second World War.

Following the start of the full-scale war in Ukraine, the German Greens’ Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock has continued in Fischer’s tradition, scolding countries with traditions of military neutrality and imploring them to join Nato. She has invoked Desmond Tutu’s line: “If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.” And the Greens have even ventriloquised their own dead members, including Petra Kelly, an anti-war icon and longtime advocate for non-alignment who died in 1992. Last year, Greens co-founder Eva Quistorp wrote an imaginary letter to Petra Kelly in the newspaper TAZ. The letter borrows Kelly’s moral stances and inverts them to justify the Greens’ embrace of war. Quistorp wants us to think that if Kelly were alive today, she would have been a Nato supporter. Addressing the long-dead Kelly, Quistorp asserts, “I bet you would shout out that radical pacifism makes blackmail possible.”

Earlier this year, Germany’s Federal Foreign Office also rolled out a new “Feminist Foreign Policy”, the latest of several European foreign ministries to have done so. This new orientation, also adopted by France, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Spain, paints cosmopolitan militarism with a faux-radical feminist gloss, opening the domain of war and security to women’s rights activists. No-nonsense feminist leaders are depicted as the ideal foil to authoritarian “strongmen”.

Sweden was the first country to adopt such a policy in 2014, permitting it to project its longstanding state feminism abroad, and to assume a new moral posture in the international arena. Domestically, there were positive Atlanticist stories in women’s magazines. In the “Mama” section of the Swedish newspaper Expressen, targeted at female readers, one interview with Angelina Jolie emphasised that Nato can protect women from sexual violence in war. Jolie also stressed that there is little difference between humanitarian aid workers and Nato soldiers, as they “are striving towards the same goal: peace”.

The academic Merje Kuus has written that Nato enlargement involves “a two-fold legitimation” strategy. First, Nato is rendered ordinary and unremarkable, pedestrian and everyday, and second, it is portrayed as above reproach, vital, an absolute moral good. The effect of this, she says, is the simultaneous banalisation and glorification of Nato: it becomes so blandly bureaucratic that it is below debate, and so “existential and essential”, that it is above debate. And this legitimation strategy has been evident in the limited, tightly-controlled debate about Euro-Atlantic integration in the Nordic countries, neither of which held referendums on membership. After decades of popular resistance to the alliance, Nato, it seems, is above democracy. But as Kuss writes, that does not mean that Nato is imposed on a society. The aim is instead “to integrate it into entertainment, education, and civic life more broadly”.

Evidence of this is everywhere. In February, Nato held its first ever gaming event. A young employee of the alliance joined popular Twitch streamer ZeRoyalViking to play Among Us and casually chat about the danger disinformation poses to democracy. With them was a mountaineer influencer and environmental activist named Caroline Gleich. As their astronaut avatars navigated a cartoon spaceship, they spoke about Nato in glowing terms. By the event’s end, the stream had turned into a recruitment effort: the alliance employee talked about the perks of his job and encouraged viewers to check the Nato website for employment opportunities in fields such as graphic design and video editing.

The event was part of Nato’s “Protect the Future” campaign. This year it included a graphic novel competition for young artists. The alliance also courted dozens of influencers with large followings on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram, and brought them out to the headquarters in Brussels. Other influencers were dispatched to last year’s Nato Summit in Madrid, where they were asked to create content for their audiences.

The European Left has been utterly captivated by this show. Following the path taken by the German Greens, major Left-wing parties have abandoned military neutrality and opposition to war and now champion Nato. It is a stunning reversal. During the Cold War, the European Left organised mass protests attended by millions against US-led militarism and Nato’s deployment of Pershing-II and cruise missiles in Europe. Today, little more than the hollowed-out radical rhetoric remains. With hardly any remaining opposition to Nato left in Europe, and the alliance’s creeping expansion beyond the Euro-Atlantic area, its hegemony is now nearly absolute.


Lily Lynch is a writer and journalist based in Belgrade.


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Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

I’m not sure why all the yawn type comments. I thought this was an interesting article, highlighting how yet another supranational body consciously leverages woke ideology to put itself above democratic scrutiny.

If there is a concern about the WHO, WEF etc., positioning themselves to suck power from national governments, we should certainly be concerned about the very apotheosis of the military industrial complex doing so.

I don’t subscribe to the argument that Putin was justified in starting the war because of NATO overreach, but there does seem to have been some level of bad faith in the various agreements with Russia over Ukraine.

This certainly isn’t an organisation that can just be trusted to do the right thing. If it is actively neutering political opposition, we should be concerned.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

You’re right. You don’t have to be a Putin fanboy to understand that this terrible war could have been avoided had we had more intelligent leadership in Washington and London.

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Undoubtedly true. Also more intelligent leadership within Russia in and since 1992, and within Ukraine. Unfortunately NATO and the EU decided to fish around for advantage in a very unstable and divided nation run by gangster oligarchs. All this is for the history books though: right now there is a war to win.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

Can the war be Won?
Can any war be won (i.e. produce a lasting solution)?

JR Stoker
JR Stoker
1 year ago
Reply to  Janos Abel

World War 2 turned out OK, don’t you think? Albeit at a terrible price

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  JR Stoker

Poland lost a third of its territory and was Communist ruled for 45 years. East Prussia was wiped out, along with most of its citizens. Millions of refuugees from the Red Army died on their journey to the Wesr. Dreadul intifadas were carried out by eg Yugoslavia, despite the fact that the Communist Party favoured peace in Europe until Germany invaded the SU. The demographic and physical destruction was extraordinary. Oh yes, a couple of atom bombs ended the war.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

“War is the father of all things”.*

(* Heraclitus c 500BC.)

JR Stoker
JR Stoker
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

And that was worse than Europe being divided between Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany? Japan as overlord of most of the Far East?

The price of victory was terrible, but it was a sight better than the alternative.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

“War is the father of all things”.*

(* Heraclitus c 500BC.)

JR Stoker
JR Stoker
1 year ago
Reply to  Anna Bramwell

And that was worse than Europe being divided between Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany? Japan as overlord of most of the Far East?

The price of victory was terrible, but it was a sight better than the alternative.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago
Reply to  JR Stoker

WWII was seeded at the end of WWI… Don’t you think?

JR Stoker
JR Stoker
1 year ago
Reply to  Janos Abel

Entirely so, yes. And we learnt from that.

JR Stoker
JR Stoker
1 year ago
Reply to  Janos Abel

Entirely so, yes. And we learnt from that.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  JR Stoker

Poland lost a third of its territory and was Communist ruled for 45 years. East Prussia was wiped out, along with most of its citizens. Millions of refuugees from the Red Army died on their journey to the Wesr. Dreadul intifadas were carried out by eg Yugoslavia, despite the fact that the Communist Party favoured peace in Europe until Germany invaded the SU. The demographic and physical destruction was extraordinary. Oh yes, a couple of atom bombs ended the war.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago
Reply to  JR Stoker

WWII was seeded at the end of WWI… Don’t you think?

JR Stoker
JR Stoker
1 year ago
Reply to  Janos Abel

World War 2 turned out OK, don’t you think? Albeit at a terrible price

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

No, no, no. The most important and vital aspect of all this is the gender based violence against women! We all need to drive to the front and hold up signs so the Russian soldiers learn to become gentleman when they confront a helpless young enemy woman.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Haha, right? And you should see the American “left” right now. These are the people least fit on this planet for military service. Of course they expect the working class to fight for them, all those people in their hated Trump country. It’s an appalling state of affairs.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Maybe Angelina Jolie will volunteer to do the driving
.at least if she’s behind the wheel of a truck she won’t be able to make any more movies

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Not a lot of enemy women on either side.
Though I am sure there certainly will be a lot of strong, independent women when they make the movies on the war.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Haha, right? And you should see the American “left” right now. These are the people least fit on this planet for military service. Of course they expect the working class to fight for them, all those people in their hated Trump country. It’s an appalling state of affairs.

Jeff Butcher
Jeff Butcher
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Maybe Angelina Jolie will volunteer to do the driving
.at least if she’s behind the wheel of a truck she won’t be able to make any more movies

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Warren Trees

Not a lot of enemy women on either side.
Though I am sure there certainly will be a lot of strong, independent women when they make the movies on the war.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

NATO was very reticent about taking on new members in central Europe – the commitment to defend them was and is an onerous one. It was those nations who had only recently escaped from Soviet occupation that made all the running and you can understand why.
It wasn’t a NATO PR campaign that persuaded Sweden and Finland to ditch decades of neutrality, it was quite simply fear of Russia. Putin has only himself to blame.

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 year ago

Sweden, Finland, the Baltic States and Poland were and are not in the same position as the former SSR’s.

Alan Colquhoun
Alan Colquhoun
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

The Baltic States ARE former SSRs!

Alan Colquhoun
Alan Colquhoun
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

The Baltic States ARE former SSRs!

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

“NATO was very reticent about taking on new members in central Europe”
NATO was as reticent about taking on new members on Europe as the US block was about invading countries in the middle East

Sweden and Finland were neutral when it was the Soviet Union. It isn’t “fear of Russia”, it’s replacement of hard nosed, practical leaders by virtue signalling morons who thought they look amazing by pretending to be standing up to Putin.

They had pretty little risk from Russia as the topography there is very unsuitable for an offensive in either direction, and they were de facto NATO members anyway.

All they achieved was to add a few pins on the Russian nuclear missile target map.

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 year ago

Sweden, Finland, the Baltic States and Poland were and are not in the same position as the former SSR’s.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago

“NATO was very reticent about taking on new members in central Europe”
NATO was as reticent about taking on new members on Europe as the US block was about invading countries in the middle East

Sweden and Finland were neutral when it was the Soviet Union. It isn’t “fear of Russia”, it’s replacement of hard nosed, practical leaders by virtue signalling morons who thought they look amazing by pretending to be standing up to Putin.

They had pretty little risk from Russia as the topography there is very unsuitable for an offensive in either direction, and they were de facto NATO members anyway.

All they achieved was to add a few pins on the Russian nuclear missile target map.

Elizabeth Hoskings
Elizabeth Hoskings
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

By whom? Don’t you want peace? Your rhetoric implies not.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

Can the war be Won?
Can any war be won (i.e. produce a lasting solution)?

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

No, no, no. The most important and vital aspect of all this is the gender based violence against women! We all need to drive to the front and hold up signs so the Russian soldiers learn to become gentleman when they confront a helpless young enemy woman.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

NATO was very reticent about taking on new members in central Europe – the commitment to defend them was and is an onerous one. It was those nations who had only recently escaped from Soviet occupation that made all the running and you can understand why.
It wasn’t a NATO PR campaign that persuaded Sweden and Finland to ditch decades of neutrality, it was quite simply fear of Russia. Putin has only himself to blame.

Elizabeth Hoskings
Elizabeth Hoskings
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonathan Nash

By whom? Don’t you want peace? Your rhetoric implies not.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Apart from vague and unsubstantiated insults about how unintelligent London and washington are, do you have any actual practical suggestions? What ought London and Washington to have done? Be specific, please.  

Rick Lawrence
Rick Lawrence
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Interesting and disappointing to me how this comment, which seems to be a legitimate question asked of a previous comment, gets downvotes, at least at the time of writing. Yet a throwaway verbal meme that contributes nothing to the debate, typical of much of Twitter land, posted by Jeff a little earlier, gets upvotes.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rick Lawrence
Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Recognize Russians sphere of influence up to the Durand Line and negotiate a mutual defense pact with Moscow.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago

Sounds an intelligent comment… Agreeing a sphere of influence for Russia instead of hostile NATO countries threatening her Western flank.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago

Sounds an intelligent comment… Agreeing a sphere of influence for Russia instead of hostile NATO countries threatening her Western flank.

Rick Lawrence
Rick Lawrence
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Interesting and disappointing to me how this comment, which seems to be a legitimate question asked of a previous comment, gets downvotes, at least at the time of writing. Yet a throwaway verbal meme that contributes nothing to the debate, typical of much of Twitter land, posted by Jeff a little earlier, gets upvotes.

Last edited 1 year ago by Rick Lawrence
Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Recognize Russians sphere of influence up to the Durand Line and negotiate a mutual defense pact with Moscow.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Really?
Please tell us how.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Maybe go back to the Gorbachev period and and observe the commitment not to expand NATO’s sphere of influence?

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Maybe go back to the Gorbachev period and and observe the commitment not to expand NATO’s sphere of influence?

Jonathan Nash
Jonathan Nash
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Undoubtedly true. Also more intelligent leadership within Russia in and since 1992, and within Ukraine. Unfortunately NATO and the EU decided to fish around for advantage in a very unstable and divided nation run by gangster oligarchs. All this is for the history books though: right now there is a war to win.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Apart from vague and unsubstantiated insults about how unintelligent London and washington are, do you have any actual practical suggestions? What ought London and Washington to have done? Be specific, please.  

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

Really?
Please tell us how.

Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

American Foreign Policy is run by aggressive idiots with a knack for making others pay for their errors. Knowing that Europeans must find a way to remove Washington’s ball and chain.

Elizabeth Hoskings
Elizabeth Hoskings
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

I’ll add that Putin did not ‘start’ this war. The US abs NATO did, via their proxy regime in Kiev shelling the Donbass for 8 years and persecuting ethnic Russians. I can explain the yawns, some people have closed minds and have been propagandised into thinking NATO are the good guys.

As you have an open mind, think on the fact that Russia tried everything to avoid thud war via the Minsk Accords. The West and Ukraine now admit they were a sham to build up weapons and buy time. Putins mistake was to trust them. He should have put an end to it earlier, and likely now regrets not doing so. Its on record, NATO promises Russia it wouldn’t expand an inch east after the fall of the USSR. Now it has crossed the red line of trying to draw in Georgia and Ukraine, leaving Russia no security guarantees. I know with the censorship and media blackout not many people are informed, but the truth is out there for those who seek it.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

You’re right. You don’t have to be a Putin fanboy to understand that this terrible war could have been avoided had we had more intelligent leadership in Washington and London.

Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

American Foreign Policy is run by aggressive idiots with a knack for making others pay for their errors. Knowing that Europeans must find a way to remove Washington’s ball and chain.

Elizabeth Hoskings
Elizabeth Hoskings
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

I’ll add that Putin did not ‘start’ this war. The US abs NATO did, via their proxy regime in Kiev shelling the Donbass for 8 years and persecuting ethnic Russians. I can explain the yawns, some people have closed minds and have been propagandised into thinking NATO are the good guys.

As you have an open mind, think on the fact that Russia tried everything to avoid thud war via the Minsk Accords. The West and Ukraine now admit they were a sham to build up weapons and buy time. Putins mistake was to trust them. He should have put an end to it earlier, and likely now regrets not doing so. Its on record, NATO promises Russia it wouldn’t expand an inch east after the fall of the USSR. Now it has crossed the red line of trying to draw in Georgia and Ukraine, leaving Russia no security guarantees. I know with the censorship and media blackout not many people are informed, but the truth is out there for those who seek it.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago

I’m not sure why all the yawn type comments. I thought this was an interesting article, highlighting how yet another supranational body consciously leverages woke ideology to put itself above democratic scrutiny.

If there is a concern about the WHO, WEF etc., positioning themselves to suck power from national governments, we should certainly be concerned about the very apotheosis of the military industrial complex doing so.

I don’t subscribe to the argument that Putin was justified in starting the war because of NATO overreach, but there does seem to have been some level of bad faith in the various agreements with Russia over Ukraine.

This certainly isn’t an organisation that can just be trusted to do the right thing. If it is actively neutering political opposition, we should be concerned.

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago

The Left has been seduced all over the globe and the leadership have failed utterly. They don’t oppose Right-wing militarism anywhere in the West and now cheerlead the US hegemonic war in Ukraine.
I don’t recognise any of the German Greens as people that I would vote for and yet that is my political leaning. They don’t represent anything Green at all, on the contrary they seem to be salivating about the destruction of vast swathes of the planet and humanity as they bow down to the god of war. They are not interested in peace, just the obliteration of their opponents.
The label is at odds with the contents and progressives and the Left have been hugely conned.
They have all gone mad and appear to crave their own annihilation as the US wipes it’s arse with them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Keating
S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Same, Chris. As I mentioned in a post– I work in perhaps the “wokest” of woke workplaces possible, in the American education sector.
These people are also all in on Ukraine–they have Ukraine flags at their desks, think Biden is Godlike for his handling of the conflict, and evince so much constant non-analytical thought that I swear I work with middle-schoolers a great deal of the time. It is very painful for me, as someone who was chewed up and spit out by the “left” because I am anti-war and anti-Covid hysteria and pro civil liberties–all things that I thought the left once supported. Indeed, in the late 1980s all these things were why I joined the left as a skater kid in my teens.
I’m left politically homeless and despairing much of the time these days.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Whilst I can understand those consciencous objectors doesn’t anti war mean you are open to being overun and oppressed by an evil military power? Sometimes you have to defend your country through war.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

My country? What does NATO and the war in Ukraine have anything to do with my country (the U.S.) aside from a deep well of money and money laundering for the “defense” industry here?
We live in a total dystopia right now in the U.S. and we are expected to die for Europe, still, and it is nonsense and time for a reckoning.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

It does because of Budapest Memorandum. It also does because the US has long positioned itself as the “leader of the free world”. You just don’t get to get away from that just like that after f*****g up things everywhere. Here, for once, the US is doing the right thing. The cartoonish thinking of black and white amongst adults baffles me to no end. Neither the US or Russia is always good or bad.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upÄ«tis

You talk of the U.S. as if “we” are one, bland hegemonic person, which is itself cartoonish and reductionist on its face.
Look, like I said before, the left in America is, since the 1960s, was where the anti-war movement resided. We protested, petitioned, went to the streets about Iraq, and were a force to be reckoned with politically, especially as related to the Vietnam War and the Iraq War. We could see the scandal of imperialism and how it was done on the backs of the working class and how badly it marred our relations with the world.
Indeed, Trump literally arose partially because of the Iraq War.
To imagine that, in the U.S. now, which feels like a failed state in many regions, that our elite overlords feel it necessary to again get us into another forever war, and that the “left” are now the water-carriers for this, is sickening to me and feels like the final stand and the death spiral of an empire that was never meant to be.
None of this will end well and we are not “doing the right thing.”

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

I respect your position as long as you don’t start talking about “US engineered coup”, “Ukrainian neonazis”, “8 years bombing Donbass”, all of which is a load of bull and makes me doubt anything I heard of the likes of Chomsky, Pilger, Hersh.. Cause if they can confidently spout such nonsense about country I know inside out and have followed and at times participated the unfolding events, then I don’t think I can trust any of those narratives as they are being put forward.
Here though I talk of the US governments that you have elected. And yes, it’s great that there’s incredible variety in the US and that you have voice and can develop in different directions. And it’s not like the protests failed entirely — they did affect the decision making to an extent and they did inform future policies. You cannot know what would have been if you didn’t go out and make yourselves heard.
Not so much in Russia, which is quickly turning into grotesque version of the USSR with capitalist oligarchy at its centre. Which is also why Ukraine and other countries bordering don’t want anything to do with it. Everyone likes their freedoms and there’s noone else to turn to but the West for the countries who are too small on their own to stand up to Russia’s imperialistic ambitions. I am from Latvia myself and I have always been sceptical about NATO (always been pro EU tho) and I have also been angry about arrogant attitudes towards Russia — despite it having occupied my country in the past, I don’t dwell on it and was looking forward. Now, I have had a pause in the 2014 but still didn’t believe in all out war, despite Ukrainians telling me it’s inevitable. I am now happy Latvia joined when we did and I’m sad and furious about Ukraine I have deep ties with, part of my family being there. I am certain only a diplomatic resolution will end the war, but for it to work, Russia needs to get a beating so good, that the terms of this agreement will be workable and that it takes decades for it to recover which will be decades of peace, I hope. To you, the occupied territories are abstract lines on maps and fighting over them is “warmongering”. To Ukraine it is their lands, that their history and memories are linked with; their people who either want to go back there or are waiting for the Ukrainians to liberate; their cultural heritage with art organisations, museums and libraries, which are being looted and destroyed. I know personally people who have been displaced and lost everything twice — first, when they had to escape Donetsk and ended up in Mariupol and now again as the Mariupol was not only occupied but razed from the face of Earth.
So yeah, you have all the rights to be against war. But defending oneself when the other option is worse, is not warmongering.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

I respect your position as long as you don’t start talking about “US engineered coup”, “Ukrainian neonazis”, “8 years bombing Donbass”, all of which is a load of bull and makes me doubt anything I heard of the likes of Chomsky, Pilger, Hersh.. Cause if they can confidently spout such nonsense about country I know inside out and have followed and at times participated the unfolding events, then I don’t think I can trust any of those narratives as they are being put forward.
Here though I talk of the US governments that you have elected. And yes, it’s great that there’s incredible variety in the US and that you have voice and can develop in different directions. And it’s not like the protests failed entirely — they did affect the decision making to an extent and they did inform future policies. You cannot know what would have been if you didn’t go out and make yourselves heard.
Not so much in Russia, which is quickly turning into grotesque version of the USSR with capitalist oligarchy at its centre. Which is also why Ukraine and other countries bordering don’t want anything to do with it. Everyone likes their freedoms and there’s noone else to turn to but the West for the countries who are too small on their own to stand up to Russia’s imperialistic ambitions. I am from Latvia myself and I have always been sceptical about NATO (always been pro EU tho) and I have also been angry about arrogant attitudes towards Russia — despite it having occupied my country in the past, I don’t dwell on it and was looking forward. Now, I have had a pause in the 2014 but still didn’t believe in all out war, despite Ukrainians telling me it’s inevitable. I am now happy Latvia joined when we did and I’m sad and furious about Ukraine I have deep ties with, part of my family being there. I am certain only a diplomatic resolution will end the war, but for it to work, Russia needs to get a beating so good, that the terms of this agreement will be workable and that it takes decades for it to recover which will be decades of peace, I hope. To you, the occupied territories are abstract lines on maps and fighting over them is “warmongering”. To Ukraine it is their lands, that their history and memories are linked with; their people who either want to go back there or are waiting for the Ukrainians to liberate; their cultural heritage with art organisations, museums and libraries, which are being looted and destroyed. I know personally people who have been displaced and lost everything twice — first, when they had to escape Donetsk and ended up in Mariupol and now again as the Mariupol was not only occupied but razed from the face of Earth.
So yeah, you have all the rights to be against war. But defending oneself when the other option is worse, is not warmongering.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upÄ«tis

You talk of the U.S. as if “we” are one, bland hegemonic person, which is itself cartoonish and reductionist on its face.
Look, like I said before, the left in America is, since the 1960s, was where the anti-war movement resided. We protested, petitioned, went to the streets about Iraq, and were a force to be reckoned with politically, especially as related to the Vietnam War and the Iraq War. We could see the scandal of imperialism and how it was done on the backs of the working class and how badly it marred our relations with the world.
Indeed, Trump literally arose partially because of the Iraq War.
To imagine that, in the U.S. now, which feels like a failed state in many regions, that our elite overlords feel it necessary to again get us into another forever war, and that the “left” are now the water-carriers for this, is sickening to me and feels like the final stand and the death spiral of an empire that was never meant to be.
None of this will end well and we are not “doing the right thing.”

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

It does because of Budapest Memorandum. It also does because the US has long positioned itself as the “leader of the free world”. You just don’t get to get away from that just like that after f*****g up things everywhere. Here, for once, the US is doing the right thing. The cartoonish thinking of black and white amongst adults baffles me to no end. Neither the US or Russia is always good or bad.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

My country? What does NATO and the war in Ukraine have anything to do with my country (the U.S.) aside from a deep well of money and money laundering for the “defense” industry here?
We live in a total dystopia right now in the U.S. and we are expected to die for Europe, still, and it is nonsense and time for a reckoning.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

I am an ageing anti-war (but not pacifist) ex-hippy who has found my way to conservatism. I suspect there are many of us.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Whilst I can understand those consciencous objectors doesn’t anti war mean you are open to being overun and oppressed by an evil military power? Sometimes you have to defend your country through war.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

I am an ageing anti-war (but not pacifist) ex-hippy who has found my way to conservatism. I suspect there are many of us.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

The main thing is surely the defence of Europe from the Russians. If Ukraine as a former Soviet Union prisoner goes who will be next? Poland, Romania, Hungary?

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

This is ahistorical and nonsense. This has been a border war all along, for over a decade.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

This is ahistorical and nonsense. This has been a border war all along, for over a decade.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Same, Chris. As I mentioned in a post– I work in perhaps the “wokest” of woke workplaces possible, in the American education sector.
These people are also all in on Ukraine–they have Ukraine flags at their desks, think Biden is Godlike for his handling of the conflict, and evince so much constant non-analytical thought that I swear I work with middle-schoolers a great deal of the time. It is very painful for me, as someone who was chewed up and spit out by the “left” because I am anti-war and anti-Covid hysteria and pro civil liberties–all things that I thought the left once supported. Indeed, in the late 1980s all these things were why I joined the left as a skater kid in my teens.
I’m left politically homeless and despairing much of the time these days.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

The main thing is surely the defence of Europe from the Russians. If Ukraine as a former Soviet Union prisoner goes who will be next? Poland, Romania, Hungary?

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago

The Left has been seduced all over the globe and the leadership have failed utterly. They don’t oppose Right-wing militarism anywhere in the West and now cheerlead the US hegemonic war in Ukraine.
I don’t recognise any of the German Greens as people that I would vote for and yet that is my political leaning. They don’t represent anything Green at all, on the contrary they seem to be salivating about the destruction of vast swathes of the planet and humanity as they bow down to the god of war. They are not interested in peace, just the obliteration of their opponents.
The label is at odds with the contents and progressives and the Left have been hugely conned.
They have all gone mad and appear to crave their own annihilation as the US wipes it’s arse with them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chris Keating
Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

In summary, the Left are are the war-mongers now.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Liberal imperialism, Clinton and Blair onward

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

History shows that Communist states are always war mongers.

George Tobias
George Tobias
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Is the ‘Communist state’ in the room with us right now?

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  George Tobias

No, but it’s certainly Putin that not only seduced the left, he even managed to seduce NATO member states and its flocking aspiring new members.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upÄ«tis

The Left hates Putin

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

That’s the seduction I mean, LOL. They didn’t hate Putin before Ukraine. Now only the staunchly pro-Palestinian left still cling to him as the hate for the US is stronger.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

That’s the seduction I mean, LOL. They didn’t hate Putin before Ukraine. Now only the staunchly pro-Palestinian left still cling to him as the hate for the US is stronger.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  zee upÄ«tis

The Left hates Putin

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  George Tobias

No, but it’s certainly Putin that not only seduced the left, he even managed to seduce NATO member states and its flocking aspiring new members.

Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Like the USA; the most powerful communist regime around today. Just because it is Western Communism doesn’t make it any less valid or revolutionary.

George Tobias
George Tobias
1 year ago

I can’t tell if this is just a dig or if this is genuine, but if you genuinely think that the USA is a ‘communist regime’ then not only do you know nothing about the US political and economic system, but you also have no idea what communism actually is.

George Tobias
George Tobias
1 year ago

I can’t tell if this is just a dig or if this is genuine, but if you genuinely think that the USA is a ‘communist regime’ then not only do you know nothing about the US political and economic system, but you also have no idea what communism actually is.

George Tobias
George Tobias
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Is the ‘Communist state’ in the room with us right now?

Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Like the USA; the most powerful communist regime around today. Just because it is Western Communism doesn’t make it any less valid or revolutionary.

Anna Bramwell
Anna Bramwell
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Liberal imperialism, Clinton and Blair onward

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

History shows that Communist states are always war mongers.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago

In summary, the Left are are the war-mongers now.

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago

The article says that bombing Belgrade in 1999 “was the first German military operation undertaken in Europe since the Second World War.” That depends on how you define “military operation”. In 1968, the German Democratic Republic provided military logistics support for the invasion of Czechoslovakia by four of its Warsaw Pact allies.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago

Ehm, let me correct there, by the USSR.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago

Ehm, let me correct there, by the USSR.

Peter Kwasi-Modo
Peter Kwasi-Modo
1 year ago

The article says that bombing Belgrade in 1999 “was the first German military operation undertaken in Europe since the Second World War.” That depends on how you define “military operation”. In 1968, the German Democratic Republic provided military logistics support for the invasion of Czechoslovakia by four of its Warsaw Pact allies.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

I work in perhaps the “wokest” of woke workplaces possible, in the American education sector.
These people are also all in on Ukraine–they have Ukraine flags at their desks, think Biden is Godlike for his handling of the conflict, and evince so much constant non-analytical thought that I swear I work with middle-schoolers a great deal of the time. It is very painful for me, as someone who was chewed up and spit out by the “left” because I am anti-war and anti-Covid hysteria and pro civil liberties–all things that I thought the left once supported. Indeed, in the late 1980s all these things were why I joined the left as a skater kid in my teens.
I’m left politically homeless and despairing much of the time these days.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

You said that already.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Warmongerers have bad listening skills and a total lack of nuanced thinking so one has to repeat oneself over and over again to make a point.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

These things need to be repeated time and again.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

Warmongerers have bad listening skills and a total lack of nuanced thinking so one has to repeat oneself over and over again to make a point.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Tony Conrad

These things need to be repeated time and again.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Being anti-war means enabling the aggressor to wage war? Everyone is a high-horse pacifist until war comes to their own home.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

You said that already.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Being anti-war means enabling the aggressor to wage war? Everyone is a high-horse pacifist until war comes to their own home.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago

I work in perhaps the “wokest” of woke workplaces possible, in the American education sector.
These people are also all in on Ukraine–they have Ukraine flags at their desks, think Biden is Godlike for his handling of the conflict, and evince so much constant non-analytical thought that I swear I work with middle-schoolers a great deal of the time. It is very painful for me, as someone who was chewed up and spit out by the “left” because I am anti-war and anti-Covid hysteria and pro civil liberties–all things that I thought the left once supported. Indeed, in the late 1980s all these things were why I joined the left as a skater kid in my teens.
I’m left politically homeless and despairing much of the time these days.

CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
1 year ago

Or more to the point the European Left is no longer seduced by Moscow.

CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
1 year ago

Or more to the point the European Left is no longer seduced by Moscow.

Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago

Very timely article. The decline of the old Left and its anti war slant has now been replaced by a new Woke Left aligned with corporatism and the Deep State.

Sayantani Gupta Jafa
Sayantani Gupta Jafa
1 year ago

Very timely article. The decline of the old Left and its anti war slant has now been replaced by a new Woke Left aligned with corporatism and the Deep State.

Lillian Fry
Lillian Fry
1 year ago

Lots of questions among the remnants of the anti war left in the US. This is more evidence that the pro war types such as US neocons like d**k Cheney have bought the support of social justice types by allowing them to run wild imposing their radical views in the social arena.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Lillian Fry

The man was feted at the Jan 6th commemoration. An appalling state of affairs. One opposed our “liberal interventionism” and is called a fascist or worse now in America. These were the same people who protested the Iraq War with me–now willing apparently to die on the Killing Fields of Ukraine for our failing empire and an Undead meat Puppet (Biden) who has laundered millions in Ukraine already.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Lillian Fry

The man was feted at the Jan 6th commemoration. An appalling state of affairs. One opposed our “liberal interventionism” and is called a fascist or worse now in America. These were the same people who protested the Iraq War with me–now willing apparently to die on the Killing Fields of Ukraine for our failing empire and an Undead meat Puppet (Biden) who has laundered millions in Ukraine already.

Lillian Fry
Lillian Fry
1 year ago

Lots of questions among the remnants of the anti war left in the US. This is more evidence that the pro war types such as US neocons like d**k Cheney have bought the support of social justice types by allowing them to run wild imposing their radical views in the social arena.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

IDK.I couldn’t finish the essay. Just kinda meh. NATO leaders are nothing more than a reflection of our political and corporate leaders – woke, self interested, no vision. Say the right things to avoid serious scrutiny.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

half way through I went off to watch some paint dry………ï»ż

Mike Doyle
Mike Doyle
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

boring, boringer, Lily Lynch…

Mike Doyle
Mike Doyle
1 year ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

boring, boringer, Lily Lynch…

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

half way through I went off to watch some paint dry………ï»ż

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

IDK.I couldn’t finish the essay. Just kinda meh. NATO leaders are nothing more than a reflection of our political and corporate leaders – woke, self interested, no vision. Say the right things to avoid serious scrutiny.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

NATO is a superb Club, as long as the US continues to foot the bill.

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago

It’s the US club so why shouldn’t they pay. Without it perhaps there could be peace and the Europeans just could try to live with their neighbours instead of trying to meddle and destroy their countries.
18 months ago I used to admire the Europeans, now I think that they are a bunch of craven idiots hell bent on destroying their own civilization.
There is never any peace because everyone backed by the US thinks that they can strong-arm a better deal, rather than settle and end the conflict.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Oh, it’s about way more than that in the good ol’ US of A. It’s about money laundering for the Biden family, it’s about sham contracts for the industries of death here, all on the backs of the American people where the middle class is in a death spiral and the cities look like 3rd World Countries with tents ringing what were once beautiful downtowns.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris Keating

Oh, it’s about way more than that in the good ol’ US of A. It’s about money laundering for the Biden family, it’s about sham contracts for the industries of death here, all on the backs of the American people where the middle class is in a death spiral and the cities look like 3rd World Countries with tents ringing what were once beautiful downtowns.

Chris Keating
Chris Keating
1 year ago

It’s the US club so why shouldn’t they pay. Without it perhaps there could be peace and the Europeans just could try to live with their neighbours instead of trying to meddle and destroy their countries.
18 months ago I used to admire the Europeans, now I think that they are a bunch of craven idiots hell bent on destroying their own civilization.
There is never any peace because everyone backed by the US thinks that they can strong-arm a better deal, rather than settle and end the conflict.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

NATO is a superb Club, as long as the US continues to foot the bill.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

“Sweden was the first country to adopt such a policy in 2014, permitting it to project its longstanding state feminism abroad, …” Strange that they should do this while rape was increasing in frequency in Sweden.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
1 year ago

Not strange. Unwilling to stand up for women at home, they can feel better by making a hollow show of doing so in other countries.
Swedish hypocrisy goes back to WW2 at least. Not that they are alone in this


Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

Malmo in Sweden became the rape capital of the world due to the encouragement of mass immigration from parts of the world where the raping of women was normal.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
1 year ago

Not strange. Unwilling to stand up for women at home, they can feel better by making a hollow show of doing so in other countries.
Swedish hypocrisy goes back to WW2 at least. Not that they are alone in this


Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago

Malmo in Sweden became the rape capital of the world due to the encouragement of mass immigration from parts of the world where the raping of women was normal.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
1 year ago

“Sweden was the first country to adopt such a policy in 2014, permitting it to project its longstanding state feminism abroad, …” Strange that they should do this while rape was increasing in frequency in Sweden.

Bob Hardy
Bob Hardy
1 year ago

As that elder statesman of political theory, Mike Tyson, once remarked, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

Bob Hardy
Bob Hardy
1 year ago

As that elder statesman of political theory, Mike Tyson, once remarked, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

Charles Rivers
Charles Rivers
1 year ago

Turkey and Greece are a long way from the Atlantic but they were early members of NATO, so a country clearly has never needed to have its shores lapped by the Gulf Stream to belong to NATO. Poland, among many. other central European countries, has always looked west for inspiration and for protection from the overwhelming (potential) power of Russia, so their adherence to NATO as soon as it was feasible was really a foregone conclusion.
But the West might have treated Yeltsin’s Russia far better than it did – less rapaciously, less arrogantly – and then Putin’s Russia, which is almost Stalin’s, might never have emerged. The Russians are a wonderful people. They deserve better government than neo-imperialist kleptocrats. As the saying goes, Ban Putin, not Pushkin!

Charles Rivers
Charles Rivers
1 year ago

Turkey and Greece are a long way from the Atlantic but they were early members of NATO, so a country clearly has never needed to have its shores lapped by the Gulf Stream to belong to NATO. Poland, among many. other central European countries, has always looked west for inspiration and for protection from the overwhelming (potential) power of Russia, so their adherence to NATO as soon as it was feasible was really a foregone conclusion.
But the West might have treated Yeltsin’s Russia far better than it did – less rapaciously, less arrogantly – and then Putin’s Russia, which is almost Stalin’s, might never have emerged. The Russians are a wonderful people. They deserve better government than neo-imperialist kleptocrats. As the saying goes, Ban Putin, not Pushkin!

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago

Well considering Petra Kelly was murdered by a paid Stasi agent and founder of “Generals for Peace”, she might indeed in retrospect have been less naive about radical pacifism, intended to leave the West vulnerable to attack.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephen Walsh
CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Exactly. The USSR backed Ban the Bomb and disarmament in the UK and infiltrated the German Greens. They saw the Left as ‘useful idiots’, whilst building up their own armaments.
There is still denial by many of the Left who cannot believe how their idealism is betrayed. Petra’s murder by her partner on the eve of the release of papers proving him to be Stasi Agent was because he couldn’t bear for her to know, couldn’t face the revelation of his private and public betrayal. And still it is not well known. The denial persists. Pacifists will reluctantly and necessarily back NATO as a defensive force against a far greater military threat.

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

I didn’t know this story.
You seem to be saying that Petra Kelly was in a relationship with a man who had posed as her lover whilst, in fact spying on her on behalf of East Germany, that this man was so horrified by the thought of exposure that he he murdered her rather than face up to his own betrayal.
And then you seem to be saying that the problem here is the stupid naive idealism of Lefties who don’t realise just how monstrous the forces arrayed against them are and who should therefore abandon pacifism as unrealistic.
Is that whay you are saying? It seems like a weird conclusion to me.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Makes sense to me. The left is so naive in my book.

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

The article asks why the European Left is less hostile to NATO than it was in (for example) Petra Kelly’s time in the 1980s. The reason is that much of the “ban the bomb” campaigning of that time was bought and paid for by the Soviet bloc. Gert Bastian was
an example of that. So Eva Quistorp may well be right: if Petra Kelly knew what we now know about the anti-NATO movement, and the cynics and useful idiots behind it, she might well have been a supporter of German membership.

rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Yea, the left should recall who sponsored Bader Meinhof the Red Army Faction, etc.

rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Yea, the left should recall who sponsored Bader Meinhof the Red Army Faction, etc.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

Makes sense to me. The left is so naive in my book.

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  George Venning

The article asks why the European Left is less hostile to NATO than it was in (for example) Petra Kelly’s time in the 1980s. The reason is that much of the “ban the bomb” campaigning of that time was bought and paid for by the Soviet bloc. Gert Bastian was
an example of that. So Eva Quistorp may well be right: if Petra Kelly knew what we now know about the anti-NATO movement, and the cynics and useful idiots behind it, she might well have been a supporter of German membership.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

The USSR collapsed in 1991.
Modern day Russia is nothing like the old Soviet Union.

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It is very like the old Soviet Union.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It is still there in Putin as head of the KGB and he controls the whole country.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Let’s say it and Belarus and Kazakhstan are waaaay more like USSR than any of the other post-Soviet or Warsaw Pact countries. I was born in the USSR and I have been to most of the former republics as well as WP countries many times. For example, Russia and Ukraine of today are in many important ways nothing like each other.

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It is very like the old Soviet Union.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It is still there in Putin as head of the KGB and he controls the whole country.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

Let’s say it and Belarus and Kazakhstan are waaaay more like USSR than any of the other post-Soviet or Warsaw Pact countries. I was born in the USSR and I have been to most of the former republics as well as WP countries many times. For example, Russia and Ukraine of today are in many important ways nothing like each other.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

And us Americans will foot the bill and perform most of the combat, all the while the decadent, corrupt European edifice continue to suck our dystopian society dry.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Quite so.

kandmbowman6
kandmbowman6
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Are the Americans performing most of the combat in Ukraine?

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  kandmbowman6

Why is that even a question? What responsibility do we even have for the security of a backwards Eastern European country mired in corruption and a border war with its equally backward neighbor, when all the incredibly wealthy European states should have stepped up long ago?
Furthermore, once NATO’s bought and sold leaders trigger Article 5 for some obscure reason, American troops will be dying en masse over there, in another European Civil War because of, why exactly? Seems you are too depraved and selfish and dependent on American largesse to imagine what a peaceful world looks like.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

The US imposes its empire (paid by the world via the petrodollar’s reserve status, not by US taxpayers) and the subjects within the vassal states – Germany, Italy, the UK, etc – are supposed to be grateful?
As for Article 5, other members can decide what degree they’ll assist the attacked member. the US will go boots-in because that way they wind up with another piece of the map – Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, for example.
US troops have decided to volunteer for this “service” BTW.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

The US imposes its empire (paid by the world via the petrodollar’s reserve status, not by US taxpayers) and the subjects within the vassal states – Germany, Italy, the UK, etc – are supposed to be grateful?
As for Article 5, other members can decide what degree they’ll assist the attacked member. the US will go boots-in because that way they wind up with another piece of the map – Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, for example.
US troops have decided to volunteer for this “service” BTW.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  kandmbowman6

Why is that even a question? What responsibility do we even have for the security of a backwards Eastern European country mired in corruption and a border war with its equally backward neighbor, when all the incredibly wealthy European states should have stepped up long ago?
Furthermore, once NATO’s bought and sold leaders trigger Article 5 for some obscure reason, American troops will be dying en masse over there, in another European Civil War because of, why exactly? Seems you are too depraved and selfish and dependent on American largesse to imagine what a peaceful world looks like.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Quite so.

kandmbowman6
kandmbowman6
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

Are the Americans performing most of the combat in Ukraine?

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

Can’t the west win through flower power?

George Venning
George Venning
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

I didn’t know this story.
You seem to be saying that Petra Kelly was in a relationship with a man who had posed as her lover whilst, in fact spying on her on behalf of East Germany, that this man was so horrified by the thought of exposure that he he murdered her rather than face up to his own betrayal.
And then you seem to be saying that the problem here is the stupid naive idealism of Lefties who don’t realise just how monstrous the forces arrayed against them are and who should therefore abandon pacifism as unrealistic.
Is that whay you are saying? It seems like a weird conclusion to me.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

The USSR collapsed in 1991.
Modern day Russia is nothing like the old Soviet Union.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

And us Americans will foot the bill and perform most of the combat, all the while the decadent, corrupt European edifice continue to suck our dystopian society dry.

Tony Conrad
Tony Conrad
1 year ago
Reply to  CF Hankinson

Can’t the west win through flower power?

CF Hankinson
CF Hankinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Stephen Walsh

Exactly. The USSR backed Ban the Bomb and disarmament in the UK and infiltrated the German Greens. They saw the Left as ‘useful idiots’, whilst building up their own armaments.
There is still denial by many of the Left who cannot believe how their idealism is betrayed. Petra’s murder by her partner on the eve of the release of papers proving him to be Stasi Agent was because he couldn’t bear for her to know, couldn’t face the revelation of his private and public betrayal. And still it is not well known. The denial persists. Pacifists will reluctantly and necessarily back NATO as a defensive force against a far greater military threat.

Stephen Walsh
Stephen Walsh
1 year ago

Well considering Petra Kelly was murdered by a paid Stasi agent and founder of “Generals for Peace”, she might indeed in retrospect have been less naive about radical pacifism, intended to leave the West vulnerable to attack.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stephen Walsh
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The anti-war Left was fatally compromised by WW2. It will never recover.

It’s fine to be against Vietnam, Iraq, and Yemen.

But it’s idiotic to be against every war. Ukraine’s defensive war in particular.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Keep supporting the Ukrainian money laundering conflict and you are asking to be dragged into a wider war with a nuclear power.
The decision to give away Stormshadow missiles to Ukraine was foolish beyond belief.
This not about supporting a country that was unjustly invaded.
This is the US’s proxy war against Russia and the US doesn’t care about the Ukrainian people or how many more Russians or Ukrainians die.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It may well be proxy war from the US point of view but it isn’t from Ukrainian POV. They are fighting for themselves. Neither it is from Russian point of view or they would be fighting against themselves — no chance on hell to win or even hurt the US in this when they are actually making it relevant again and increasing its arms and energy trade. To Russia, this is imperialistic quest for local dominance and reestablishing itself on a world stage, which hasn’t been going well so far. I am closely involved with Ukraine and I know very well why this war is happening and how the two countries are different as well as seeing clearly what will happen if it gives up, the pacifist in me is nowhere to be found. Russia needs to get a good beating before a diplomatic resolution is achieved — so that there is peace at least for a few decades..

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

It may well be proxy war from the US point of view but it isn’t from Ukrainian POV. They are fighting for themselves. Neither it is from Russian point of view or they would be fighting against themselves — no chance on hell to win or even hurt the US in this when they are actually making it relevant again and increasing its arms and energy trade. To Russia, this is imperialistic quest for local dominance and reestablishing itself on a world stage, which hasn’t been going well so far. I am closely involved with Ukraine and I know very well why this war is happening and how the two countries are different as well as seeing clearly what will happen if it gives up, the pacifist in me is nowhere to be found. Russia needs to get a good beating before a diplomatic resolution is achieved — so that there is peace at least for a few decades..

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  martin logan

Keep supporting the Ukrainian money laundering conflict and you are asking to be dragged into a wider war with a nuclear power.
The decision to give away Stormshadow missiles to Ukraine was foolish beyond belief.
This not about supporting a country that was unjustly invaded.
This is the US’s proxy war against Russia and the US doesn’t care about the Ukrainian people or how many more Russians or Ukrainians die.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
martin logan
martin logan
1 year ago

The anti-war Left was fatally compromised by WW2. It will never recover.

It’s fine to be against Vietnam, Iraq, and Yemen.

But it’s idiotic to be against every war. Ukraine’s defensive war in particular.

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

In the British Army a Scimitar is an armoured vehicle.. In the German army it is a syringe made by Gillette to inject smack!!!! Old Foot Guards joke…

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

In the British Army a Scimitar is an armoured vehicle.. In the German army it is a syringe made by Gillette to inject smack!!!! Old Foot Guards joke…

rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago

As Tolstoy noted – “you may not be interested in war but war is interested in you”. Is the odd but total omission of Russia’s special operation just a careless over-site? There are neither green nor anti war political parties in Russia, Lilly and many on the Euro left actually know that.
As for the NATO Serbian involvement, the US resisted it don’t blame us. The Europeans couldn’t manage the quickly emerging genocide militarily and begged for a NATO operation. Obviously you think that was totally unnecessary and you should argue that take in public. In the meantime, let’s all just keep opining that war is not the answer and carefully avoid asking what the question was or is.

Last edited 1 year ago by rick stubbs
rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago

As Tolstoy noted – “you may not be interested in war but war is interested in you”. Is the odd but total omission of Russia’s special operation just a careless over-site? There are neither green nor anti war political parties in Russia, Lilly and many on the Euro left actually know that.
As for the NATO Serbian involvement, the US resisted it don’t blame us. The Europeans couldn’t manage the quickly emerging genocide militarily and begged for a NATO operation. Obviously you think that was totally unnecessary and you should argue that take in public. In the meantime, let’s all just keep opining that war is not the answer and carefully avoid asking what the question was or is.

Last edited 1 year ago by rick stubbs
Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

From an Army point of view, the new US and Eastern Europeans have some excellent soldiers, the Italians have very good mountain troops and divers, the rest are rubbish

Nicky Samengo-Turner
Nicky Samengo-Turner
1 year ago

From an Army point of view, the new US and Eastern Europeans have some excellent soldiers, the Italians have very good mountain troops and divers, the rest are rubbish

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
1 year ago

Terrific article. The progressive Left has been absorbed into statist managerialism across the West for the last half century, the last step in this process has been its absorption into military alliances. After all, the conquest of state machinery and the appointment of leftists to administer it has been at the core of the Lef’s strategy since 1968 – I love the reference to ‘state feminism’ and then ‘Atlanticist feminism’.
Conservatives need to do some serious thinking now. When the Left captures the institutions you once celebrated, can you keep celebrating them as you once did? I suspect that genuine conservatives in the coming decade will switch places with progressives on national security – neutrality in the Swiss and Austrian forms is a very conservative posture, NATO integration is now a progressive posture.
I am an ageing anti-war (but not pacifist) ex-hippy who has found my way to conservatism. I suspect there are many of us.

Vern Hughes
Vern Hughes
1 year ago

Terrific article. The progressive Left has been absorbed into statist managerialism across the West for the last half century, the last step in this process has been its absorption into military alliances. After all, the conquest of state machinery and the appointment of leftists to administer it has been at the core of the Lef’s strategy since 1968 – I love the reference to ‘state feminism’ and then ‘Atlanticist feminism’.
Conservatives need to do some serious thinking now. When the Left captures the institutions you once celebrated, can you keep celebrating them as you once did? I suspect that genuine conservatives in the coming decade will switch places with progressives on national security – neutrality in the Swiss and Austrian forms is a very conservative posture, NATO integration is now a progressive posture.
I am an ageing anti-war (but not pacifist) ex-hippy who has found my way to conservatism. I suspect there are many of us.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
1 year ago

It’s just possible, of course, that it’s only shills for Russia who haven’t seen through the anti-NATO propaganda campaign which seduced so many on the gullible Left. Serbia was aiming for a ‘Greater Serbia’, enabled by a ‘Greater Russia’, by military means. Both expansionist dreams have been frustrated, firstly by NATO, now by Ukraine assisted by NATO’s supplies of weapons, hence this propaganda piece.

Gordon Arta
Gordon Arta
1 year ago

It’s just possible, of course, that it’s only shills for Russia who haven’t seen through the anti-NATO propaganda campaign which seduced so many on the gullible Left. Serbia was aiming for a ‘Greater Serbia’, enabled by a ‘Greater Russia’, by military means. Both expansionist dreams have been frustrated, firstly by NATO, now by Ukraine assisted by NATO’s supplies of weapons, hence this propaganda piece.

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
1 year ago

As far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, the 1999 bombing of Belgrade was simply unfinished business.

Nick Faulks
Nick Faulks
1 year ago

As far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, the 1999 bombing of Belgrade was simply unfinished business.

Lillian Fry
Lillian Fry
1 year ago

Many wonder why former peace activists would ally themselves with the war mongers. It’s not a mystery. This alliance gives the left the power to enforce its woke agenda. Peace activists are in general agreement with all of the other aims of the left so why not give up on peace to gain so much else of what they want?

Lillian Fry
Lillian Fry
1 year ago

Many wonder why former peace activists would ally themselves with the war mongers. It’s not a mystery. This alliance gives the left the power to enforce its woke agenda. Peace activists are in general agreement with all of the other aims of the left so why not give up on peace to gain so much else of what they want?

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

If ‘Adolph’ hadn’t botched ‘Barbarossa’ we would wouldn’t be in this mess.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago

If ‘Adolph’ hadn’t botched ‘Barbarossa’ we would wouldn’t be in this mess.

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago

“The European Left has been utterly captivated by this show.”
I am not Left at all, but am gratified many on the non-lunatic left (there is such a thing), see the value in not ending up like Ukraine, which requires joining NATO.
Anyone actually paying attention since 2014 predicted the current war (i.e. almost everyone east of the Oder–Neisse line & a minority of folk west of it). Getting people in Finland & Sweden behind the idea of joining NATO was driven for the most part not by players in the west, but by Russian actions. Having mainstream figures a few years ago on Russian state TV in discuss how Russian might take Swedish Gotland, because why not, did more than a little to change opinions in the habitually neutral north.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago

Exactly, which this agenda-driven article conveniently omits. After Yugoslavia, there’s been a serious pushback and NATO is more cautious now. Yet it was Russia that has given the biggest boost to NATO in decades. Not just the acceptance of it but also expansion and remilitarisation of its members. I must admit I am one of those who have changed my mind about NATO after this.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago

Exactly, which this agenda-driven article conveniently omits. After Yugoslavia, there’s been a serious pushback and NATO is more cautious now. Yet it was Russia that has given the biggest boost to NATO in decades. Not just the acceptance of it but also expansion and remilitarisation of its members. I must admit I am one of those who have changed my mind about NATO after this.

Perry de Havilland
Perry de Havilland
1 year ago

“The European Left has been utterly captivated by this show.”
I am not Left at all, but am gratified many on the non-lunatic left (there is such a thing), see the value in not ending up like Ukraine, which requires joining NATO.
Anyone actually paying attention since 2014 predicted the current war (i.e. almost everyone east of the Oder–Neisse line & a minority of folk west of it). Getting people in Finland & Sweden behind the idea of joining NATO was driven for the most part not by players in the west, but by Russian actions. Having mainstream figures a few years ago on Russian state TV in discuss how Russian might take Swedish Gotland, because why not, did more than a little to change opinions in the habitually neutral north.

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago

An instructive piece exampling the high art of mind twisting… (there’s is a much ruder word for that)

Janos Abel
Janos Abel
1 year ago

An instructive piece exampling the high art of mind twisting… (there’s is a much ruder word for that)

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Putin’s war on Ukraine probably done much the same for the Left as the Spanish Civil war and exposure to the Soviets did for Orwell. The ‘veil lifts’. Took a while then for many on the left to catch up with him, but most did eventually.
Perhaps there is something about the Left that is reticent until it then moves fairly fast into alignment against Totalitarianism. It was the Labour Left of course that ensured Britain got Churchill rather than capitulation but they’d been behind the curve a few years before. They went onto ensure Britain got it’s own bomb with a ‘bl**dy great Union Jack on the top of it’ famously said by Ernie Bevin.
So perhaps a pattern with an historical antecedent?

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Attlee and Bevin were true patriots, unlike Harold Laski & Co who were arrant traitors.

rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

This site is seriously trolled by False Dmitry types but why?

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The Left had been induced to hate Putin long before “he” invaded Ukraine.

Charles Stanhope
Charles Stanhope
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

Attlee and Bevin were true patriots, unlike Harold Laski & Co who were arrant traitors.

rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

This site is seriously trolled by False Dmitry types but why?

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  j watson

The Left had been induced to hate Putin long before “he” invaded Ukraine.

j watson
j watson
1 year ago

Putin’s war on Ukraine probably done much the same for the Left as the Spanish Civil war and exposure to the Soviets did for Orwell. The ‘veil lifts’. Took a while then for many on the left to catch up with him, but most did eventually.
Perhaps there is something about the Left that is reticent until it then moves fairly fast into alignment against Totalitarianism. It was the Labour Left of course that ensured Britain got Churchill rather than capitulation but they’d been behind the curve a few years before. They went onto ensure Britain got it’s own bomb with a ‘bl**dy great Union Jack on the top of it’ famously said by Ernie Bevin.
So perhaps a pattern with an historical antecedent?

Last edited 1 year ago by j watson
Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Contrived. Anti-NATO sentiment had extant among young, cossetted Western liberals from the 1960s onwards. Putin’s murderous rampage into Ukraine was the main reason why the virtue-signalling scales fell from their eyes. Nothing to do with PR campaigns involving actors.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I hope you are of age to sign up for the Eastern European killing fields. Report back what you see there. War continues to be the abomination of humankind and the fact that my old political home now adores it, makes me shudder at night.

Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

No one is asking for joining the fight in Ukraine.
But sending weapons so Ukraine can defend itself against Russian aggression is another matter.
It is naive to think that allowing Russia to commit another genocide on Ukrainian nation as they already did in the 30s will bring peace in Europe.
We tried to appease another dictator in the 30s with other countries land.
It did not end well, did it?

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew F
Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Russia isn’t planning genocide in Ukraine, and if we really cared about Ukrainians – rather than the profits of “our” MIC and the expansion of the Anglo-American empire – we wouldn’t have sent BoJo over to Kiev in April last year to put the kibosh on the peace agreement (as reported by Naftali Bennet, amongst others).
As for appeasement, Putin tried that for 8 years with the Minsk Agreements, which Western “leaders” (and Poroshenko) have since admitted were to buy time to allow Ukraine to build up the military strength necessary to bring the Eastern regions back to heel by force.
Regardless of what one thinks of Putin, he has far more popular support than Biden or Macron… so perhaps you need to think a little harder before slinging terms like “dictator” around.
And remind me who voted for Sunak?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

Good post Jim, I’m sick of these war-mongers.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

What disneyland are you living in? Russia is absolutely and openly conducting a genocide trumpeting about Ukraine not being a real state and Ukrainians actually being Russians. You should listen to some of the Putin’s speeches in full or read his “paper”. Russians cultivate hatred and advocate genocide on the state television, in occupied territories they pick people based on ethnicity and loyalty to Ukraine, they have lists of people to imprison and torture, they deport and indoctrinate Ukrainian children. I know all that not just from the press but from actually having been in the deoccupied territories and a totally random person the street will confirm any of this without asking cause they survived it and want to talk about it. As about Minsk Agreements, I advise you to truly read thru them and then study the chronology of events involving all parties before using them as some kind of argument.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

Good post Jim, I’m sick of these war-mongers.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim C

What disneyland are you living in? Russia is absolutely and openly conducting a genocide trumpeting about Ukraine not being a real state and Ukrainians actually being Russians. You should listen to some of the Putin’s speeches in full or read his “paper”. Russians cultivate hatred and advocate genocide on the state television, in occupied territories they pick people based on ethnicity and loyalty to Ukraine, they have lists of people to imprison and torture, they deport and indoctrinate Ukrainian children. I know all that not just from the press but from actually having been in the deoccupied territories and a totally random person the street will confirm any of this without asking cause they survived it and want to talk about it. As about Minsk Agreements, I advise you to truly read thru them and then study the chronology of events involving all parties before using them as some kind of argument.

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

There is no genocide.
Ukraine needs to negotiate.
Zelenskyy is killing Ukraine.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

You should say this out loud on a public square in any Ukrainian city and see how you fare.

zee upītis
zee upītis
1 year ago
Reply to  Stoater D

You should say this out loud on a public square in any Ukrainian city and see how you fare.

Jim C
Jim C
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

Russia isn’t planning genocide in Ukraine, and if we really cared about Ukrainians – rather than the profits of “our” MIC and the expansion of the Anglo-American empire – we wouldn’t have sent BoJo over to Kiev in April last year to put the kibosh on the peace agreement (as reported by Naftali Bennet, amongst others).
As for appeasement, Putin tried that for 8 years with the Minsk Agreements, which Western “leaders” (and Poroshenko) have since admitted were to buy time to allow Ukraine to build up the military strength necessary to bring the Eastern regions back to heel by force.
Regardless of what one thinks of Putin, he has far more popular support than Biden or Macron… so perhaps you need to think a little harder before slinging terms like “dictator” around.
And remind me who voted for Sunak?

Stoater D
Stoater D
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew F

There is no genocide.
Ukraine needs to negotiate.
Zelenskyy is killing Ukraine.

Last edited 1 year ago by Stoater D
Andrew F
Andrew F
1 year ago
Reply to  S Smith

No one is asking for joining the fight in Ukraine.
But sending weapons so Ukraine can defend itself against Russian aggression is another matter.
It is naive to think that allowing Russia to commit another genocide on Ukrainian nation as they already did in the 30s will bring peace in Europe.
We tried to appease another dictator in the 30s with other countries land.
It did not end well, did it?

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew F
Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Russia was naive about America and Europe.

S Smith
S Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

I hope you are of age to sign up for the Eastern European killing fields. Report back what you see there. War continues to be the abomination of humankind and the fact that my old political home now adores it, makes me shudder at night.

Northern Observer
Northern Observer
1 year ago
Reply to  Frank McCusker

Russia was naive about America and Europe.

Frank McCusker
Frank McCusker
1 year ago

Contrived. Anti-NATO sentiment had extant among young, cossetted Western liberals from the 1960s onwards. Putin’s murderous rampage into Ukraine was the main reason why the virtue-signalling scales fell from their eyes. Nothing to do with PR campaigns involving actors.

Richard Turpin
Richard Turpin
1 year ago

Virtue and Yawn…

rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Turpin

But so many loved this unusually shallow piece. Do better UnHerd..

rick stubbs
rick stubbs
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Turpin

But so many loved this unusually shallow piece. Do better UnHerd..

Richard Turpin
Richard Turpin
1 year ago

Virtue and Yawn…