In a cemetery near the fishing village of Mousehole, in Cornwall, stands a memorial stone to Dolly Pentreath. Erected in 1860, it commemorates her death in 1777: already, by then, the last known native speaker of the Cornish language.
What would it be like to watch your language die over your lifetime? A language encodes a way of looking at the world, as much as of interacting with others. The many Inuit words for “snow” may or may not be apocryphal, but the legend captures something true: a language goes into great detail on subjects its speakers believe important. What would it be like to be the only one left for whom these words, those sentences, felt natural and obvious?
In a similar way, a religious faith is a moral language. A faith goes into great detail on themes its speakers believe important. Moral languages can also die, or evolve into something new, as (for whatever reason) its adherents stop passing on its grammar and priorities.
These gloomy thoughts percolated last Sunday as I sat, with my daughter on my lap, gazing around the 800-year-old nave of a little Norman church near our home, as we listened to the Palm Sunday reading of the Passion of Christ. This story is the heart of the Christian faith: it describes an incarnate God, acclaimed in his own capital city as Messiah — and betrayed in the moment of worldly triumph. It tells of that deity swarmed by a mocking crowd, and abandoned by even the disciples who swore never to do so. It recounts his death on the cross, as a criminal flanked by criminals, crying out at the last moment of agony about having been forsaken by the God in whom he trusted.
Today, we view the cross through a 2,000-year prism of Christian meanings. In the pre-Christian tradition absorbed into that symbolism, though, it was often held to symbolise the four material elements of earth, air, fire, and water. And from this perspective, we might read the Crucifixion as in part the story of a God that doesn’t just willingly take on flesh, but also the profound suffering that comes with embodied life: limitation, pain, and — finally — agonising death, in the certainty of having been forsaken by the divine.
And in this sense, the two-millennia trajectory of the Christian Church also echoes the Passion narrative. A faith born among the poor, rising to immense worldly reach and power; even in that little church, one of thousands throughout England, gravestones and memorials mark more than 800 years of the great and the good whose lives pepper this story. Then, the same institution, crippled from within at the moment of peak political reach, and now spiralling toward irrelevance.
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SubscribeAs a Christian, it is always a pleasure to read a frankly Christian commentary in the public space. The essay is an elegy, but beautifully written and quite moving. And I appreciate the final comment about faith – if ever we needed that virtue it is now.
Be assured that nobody can kill God and Jesus is still the way to the Father as well as being the truth and the life. It is true that the country has fallen back as a whole and no longer believes in God but that doesn’t change the truth none. We all have a choice. Our sin has separated us from God but we can be forgiven through Jesus death on the cross when we believe and act on it by changing our minds. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life and shall not pass into condemnation (where our sin takes us) but has passed from death to life. Christians have no problem with science as they are simply the laws that God has made which we can discover.
Be assured that nobody can kill God and Jesus is still the way to the Father as well as being the truth and the life. It is true that the country has fallen back as a whole and no longer believes in God but that doesn’t change the truth none. We all have a choice. Our sin has separated us from God but we can be forgiven through Jesus death on the cross when we believe and act on it by changing our minds. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life and shall not pass into condemnation (where our sin takes us) but has passed from death to life. Christians have no problem with science as they are simply the laws that God has made which we can discover.
As a Christian, it is always a pleasure to read a frankly Christian commentary in the public space. The essay is an elegy, but beautifully written and quite moving. And I appreciate the final comment about faith – if ever we needed that virtue it is now.
“With that science came the steady withdrawal of God from His creation…”
No doubt that assertion is correct overall, but as someone who spent the first part of his career as a chemist/biochemist I never found any contradiction between science and faith. The longer I studied the working of biological systems (even such “simple” systems as a single cell) the less I understood how they worked. Each successive wave of technology (PCR, gene chips, chromatography-mass spectrometry) revealed a greater layer of complexity until even a single cell became an improbable Rube Goldberg machine, too complicated to function–but somehow it did function. I can readily believe there is a unifying force underlying life that will never be explained by science and can better be explained by religious faith.
I am no longer an observant Christian, but deep down I retain a certain form of faith. I’m pleased that the Unherd comments section, although an unlikely forum, is a place where I can say “Happy Easter” and many people will not be offended by that remark.
A blessed Easter to you and all.
It’s always interesting to hear from someone with a deep study of biology/biochemistry.
Might i enquire whether, should biogenesis be found elsewhere as we expand our ability to explore beyond our own planet, your view might change? If organic compounds developing into cellular life is found to be common, perhaps with many different and strange biochemical bases, would you consider that Faith still plays a part, especially if no other examples other than human religious faith became apparent?
All hypothetical, i know, but i’d still be curious about whether it’s something you’ve considered.
What many scientists with christian faith, including myself as a biology graduate, would conclude after some new scientific discovery is “oh, so that’s how God did it!”. Our faith is not based on gaps in scientific understanding, but on what we plainly see with our eyes, what we read in the scriptures, and what we experience in our spirits.
If you respond to every scientific discovery by saying ‘Oh, that’s how God did it’ you make religion literally unfalsifiable.
What result could disprove religion if you choose to interpret every result that way?
Religion, being comprised of theology, liturgy and morality, is not to be “proven” or “disproven”.
Faith in God, could it be “proven” or “disproven”, would not be faith.
This is not to say there is no “evidence” of God’s existence–the Bible, for example.
Just because “interpreting” the results of experiments in the physical world as evidence of God’s Divine Plan fails to “disprove religion” as you say, is no reason to discard this “interpretation”.
Saying that the Bible provides evidence involves circular logic.
For example, it says in Joshua that the sun stood still in the sky. Do we have any other evidence to corroborate this claim? No. So what weight do we give to the Bible saying that it happened? You may give it a lot if you choose, but it’s not really evidence.
It’s a curious thing is it not that the opening lines of the Bible describe the big bang quite accurately, allowing for language etc. To get it as right as it did, given a million other possible myths, is truly remarkable is it not? Carl Sagan thought so (Dragons of Eden)..
“Quite accurately?” Well, ex nihilo in general, but . . . Wouldn’t it be more impressive if G-d said to Moses: “Hey here’s something better: those upcoming Nature Philosophers will be barking up the right tree with elements and atoms but you guys need to be more precise: not just ordinary sense objects like water and air nor the teeniest bits they can chop. I reveal: the Periodic Table! Your chemistry has numbers, because it is rooted in real atomic structure. In turn it will clue you in to all the biodiversity. And it works anywhere at all in the universe, where by the way you will see billions and billions of stars and planets . . .”?
I don’t see that in the creation narrative in Genesis.
“Quite accurately?” Well, ex nihilo in general, but . . . Wouldn’t it be more impressive if G-d said to Moses: “Hey here’s something better: those upcoming Nature Philosophers will be barking up the right tree with elements and atoms but you guys need to be more precise: not just ordinary sense objects like water and air nor the teeniest bits they can chop. I reveal: the Periodic Table! Your chemistry has numbers, because it is rooted in real atomic structure. In turn it will clue you in to all the biodiversity. And it works anywhere at all in the universe, where by the way you will see billions and billions of stars and planets . . .”?
I don’t see that in the creation narrative in Genesis.
Your point is interesting but your timing leaves something to be desired. It’s Good Friday.
My Christians in Science group had a fascinating lecture about just that and other unusual events reported in the Old Testament! All to do with eclipses and translations of early texts. As a biology graduate in the 1960s I have watched the march of knowledge in this field. We now know so much about cellular activity but we cannot give that divine spark to inanimate chemicals. So that’s where my faith goes. I’m so sad that the subject I love has become the vehicle for such profound evils as surrogacy, “gender affirmation surgeries” and the like.
And the killing of 9.5 million babies.
And the killing of 9.5 million babies.
Similar events have happened much more recently, for example in Portugal in 1917, where the sun seemed to “dance”, witnessed by tens of thousands of people (google “the miracle of the sun”). Some people believe there was a natural explanation for the phenomenon of course, and perhaps there was, but the event was predicted well in advance by three children, which is why the crowds were there.
I thought that even the Vatican had conceded that Copernicus and Galileo were correct. The earth revolves on its axis, which makes the sun appear to be moving across the sky. The earth can’t stop revolving because of the law of conservation of angular momentum.
I’d trust the laws of physics before the accounts of religious Portuguese people in 1917.
The physics was right but God made physics. Religion can be the enemy of God at times.
The physics was right but God made physics. Religion can be the enemy of God at times.
.
Not everything supernatural is from God. Evil has supernatural it appears but Jesus had authority over it and we can have too. Don’t be deceived.
I thought that even the Vatican had conceded that Copernicus and Galileo were correct. The earth revolves on its axis, which makes the sun appear to be moving across the sky. The earth can’t stop revolving because of the law of conservation of angular momentum.
I’d trust the laws of physics before the accounts of religious Portuguese people in 1917.
.
Not everything supernatural is from God. Evil has supernatural it appears but Jesus had authority over it and we can have too. Don’t be deceived.
I think you may be misunderstanding the point of the Bible. It is a library of books of wisdom not of history. Therefore it is not to be proved factually correct or incorrect. Belief is not literal. Scientific method and faith are not alternatives. They are different ways of apprehending the same thing.
We must trust the science. Unfortunately a lot of the so called science now has not been proved but is an enforced opinion that one is not allowed to question in certain quarters. A kind of science if repeated enough cause people to believe it’s true when it isn’t.
We must trust the science. Unfortunately a lot of the so called science now has not been proved but is an enforced opinion that one is not allowed to question in certain quarters. A kind of science if repeated enough cause people to believe it’s true when it isn’t.
Seems like i remember a story about how they were able to say that the North Star did shine ultra brightly around the time of his birth.
For those who follow Christ and his teachings, it’s not for us to falsify or unfalsify, as though He were a science experiment. Scientific discovery keeps us constantly in awe of God, as it should be.
It’s harder for me to believe that the order of science was just there on it’s own.
It’s harder for me to believe that the order of science was just there on it’s own.
I read that it was proved by science when they were working out time and what happened in Joshua was the missing piece. Nevertheless even if it wasn’t proven I still believe it because God gives me the faith to believe it. It’s not logical I know but God is truer than all the arguments raised against Him. One day all will know. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
It’s a curious thing is it not that the opening lines of the Bible describe the big bang quite accurately, allowing for language etc. To get it as right as it did, given a million other possible myths, is truly remarkable is it not? Carl Sagan thought so (Dragons of Eden)..
Your point is interesting but your timing leaves something to be desired. It’s Good Friday.
My Christians in Science group had a fascinating lecture about just that and other unusual events reported in the Old Testament! All to do with eclipses and translations of early texts. As a biology graduate in the 1960s I have watched the march of knowledge in this field. We now know so much about cellular activity but we cannot give that divine spark to inanimate chemicals. So that’s where my faith goes. I’m so sad that the subject I love has become the vehicle for such profound evils as surrogacy, “gender affirmation surgeries” and the like.
Similar events have happened much more recently, for example in Portugal in 1917, where the sun seemed to “dance”, witnessed by tens of thousands of people (google “the miracle of the sun”). Some people believe there was a natural explanation for the phenomenon of course, and perhaps there was, but the event was predicted well in advance by three children, which is why the crowds were there.
I think you may be misunderstanding the point of the Bible. It is a library of books of wisdom not of history. Therefore it is not to be proved factually correct or incorrect. Belief is not literal. Scientific method and faith are not alternatives. They are different ways of apprehending the same thing.
Seems like i remember a story about how they were able to say that the North Star did shine ultra brightly around the time of his birth.
For those who follow Christ and his teachings, it’s not for us to falsify or unfalsify, as though He were a science experiment. Scientific discovery keeps us constantly in awe of God, as it should be.
I read that it was proved by science when they were working out time and what happened in Joshua was the missing piece. Nevertheless even if it wasn’t proven I still believe it because God gives me the faith to believe it. It’s not logical I know but God is truer than all the arguments raised against Him. One day all will know. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Saying that the Bible provides evidence involves circular logic.
For example, it says in Joshua that the sun stood still in the sky. Do we have any other evidence to corroborate this claim? No. So what weight do we give to the Bible saying that it happened? You may give it a lot if you choose, but it’s not really evidence.
Your point is accepted, but the reverse is more pertinent. When evolution is unable to explain a phenomenon, you are left with a Creator, or at least, a super-intelligent being/alien race who seeded earth with life. The current explanations of origins based on Darwinian (random) evolution require billions of years, trillions of failures and even multiverses to make the math work. This explanation is ultimately unsatisfying. The deeper we dig into molecular biology the more we realize that the design is far cleverer, by orders of magnitude, than all the software that humans have yet produced. And yet we believe it just grew that way?
I think that’s a mischaracterisation of evolution. The first principle, mutation, is random and directionless. The second bit, selection, is non-random.
Only mutations that confer better survival get passed on, so after three billion years of life the product can be very sophisticated indeed. It will look designed, even if it was fashioned by repeated iterations of trial and error.
No-one seriously thinks life evolved just by random errors; it had an organising principle, just not a supernatural one.
Exactly! Thank you.
I would say a created one.
Exactly! Thank you.
I would say a created one.
If all the organs needed to produce just one birth after millions of years the species would have died out long ago.
I think that’s a mischaracterisation of evolution. The first principle, mutation, is random and directionless. The second bit, selection, is non-random.
Only mutations that confer better survival get passed on, so after three billion years of life the product can be very sophisticated indeed. It will look designed, even if it was fashioned by repeated iterations of trial and error.
No-one seriously thinks life evolved just by random errors; it had an organising principle, just not a supernatural one.
If all the organs needed to produce just one birth after millions of years the species would have died out long ago.
Since science is unable to grapple with Why (only How) your question cannot fly.. Science, like football is a set of rules.. As wonderful as they both are, neither explains everything
Exactly!! Thank you. Well said, D Glover. I could not have said it more succinctly myself.
You said that already. I thought this was a discussion not a fight.
You said that already. I thought this was a discussion not a fight.
Here we get a multi-edged sword. “Science tells us how G-d worked” keeps the peace; dissenters need not be persecuted, science and religion celebrate a division of labor. (This is what Gould called “NOMA,” what in the Middle Ages was called “Averroism.”) By the same token theology accepts general intellectual impotence. Some religious folk find this acceptable, but others do not. To embrace Averroism means thinking it pointless to falsify theology; but this also makes it pointless to assert theology as truth — and not all religious believers will agree to give up such assertion. (At least some creationists would agree that theology should not be made “literally unfalsifiable” — but only so that they can assert their theological claims as True.)
Theology can be personal and maybe wrong. The bible is the only source of true theology but it also shows that there is a Spirit of truth that backs it up.
Theology can be personal and maybe wrong. The bible is the only source of true theology but it also shows that there is a Spirit of truth that backs it up.
It’s not religion it’s faith. Faith is the evidence of things not seen (based on the word of God) the substance of things hoped for. If one believes in God why should one go out of his way to try and prove that God didn’t create it.That doesn’t make sense
Religion, being comprised of theology, liturgy and morality, is not to be “proven” or “disproven”.
Faith in God, could it be “proven” or “disproven”, would not be faith.
This is not to say there is no “evidence” of God’s existence–the Bible, for example.
Just because “interpreting” the results of experiments in the physical world as evidence of God’s Divine Plan fails to “disprove religion” as you say, is no reason to discard this “interpretation”.
Your point is accepted, but the reverse is more pertinent. When evolution is unable to explain a phenomenon, you are left with a Creator, or at least, a super-intelligent being/alien race who seeded earth with life. The current explanations of origins based on Darwinian (random) evolution require billions of years, trillions of failures and even multiverses to make the math work. This explanation is ultimately unsatisfying. The deeper we dig into molecular biology the more we realize that the design is far cleverer, by orders of magnitude, than all the software that humans have yet produced. And yet we believe it just grew that way?
Since science is unable to grapple with Why (only How) your question cannot fly.. Science, like football is a set of rules.. As wonderful as they both are, neither explains everything
Exactly!! Thank you. Well said, D Glover. I could not have said it more succinctly myself.
Here we get a multi-edged sword. “Science tells us how G-d worked” keeps the peace; dissenters need not be persecuted, science and religion celebrate a division of labor. (This is what Gould called “NOMA,” what in the Middle Ages was called “Averroism.”) By the same token theology accepts general intellectual impotence. Some religious folk find this acceptable, but others do not. To embrace Averroism means thinking it pointless to falsify theology; but this also makes it pointless to assert theology as truth — and not all religious believers will agree to give up such assertion. (At least some creationists would agree that theology should not be made “literally unfalsifiable” — but only so that they can assert their theological claims as True.)
It’s not religion it’s faith. Faith is the evidence of things not seen (based on the word of God) the substance of things hoped for. If one believes in God why should one go out of his way to try and prove that God didn’t create it.That doesn’t make sense
Good on ye! Shout it from the rooftops!
Agreed – indeed, faith and “rational inquiry” might be seen as separate domains.
“Science” (perhaps more correctly, natural philosophy) is concerned with whether a model, paradigm or proposition can be falsified. Faith cannot be falsified, since it’s really not amenable to objective scrutiny. Hence, there need not be any conflict between the spiritual and natural philosophy.
Stephen Jay Gould referred to these two independent spheres as “non-overlapping magisteria”, which always appealed to me as a sensible descriptive.
“Faith cannot be falsified . . . ” But sometimes it can. Glover’s example (above) of the sun stopping for Joshua; Elijah calling down fire from YHWH in heaven when Baal could not do the same; Gideon using the oracle of the fleece; Noah building a boat to save two of each kind of animal; Jonah being swallowed by the big fish; Shadrach Meshach & Abednego surviving the fiery furnace, and Daniel the lions’ den — these examples from TaNaK are depicted as empirical events. Cameras from Eye’M Witless news would have shown the sun stopping, the fire coming down, and so forth. Now, one may say, but faith understands such reports in non-literal ways. Some faith does, but some does not. Thus it is that Gould’s NOMA is more a performative utterance, a formula for keeping civil peace perhaps, than it is a universal characterization of religion and rationality.
“Faith cannot be falsified . . . ” But sometimes it can. Glover’s example (above) of the sun stopping for Joshua; Elijah calling down fire from YHWH in heaven when Baal could not do the same; Gideon using the oracle of the fleece; Noah building a boat to save two of each kind of animal; Jonah being swallowed by the big fish; Shadrach Meshach & Abednego surviving the fiery furnace, and Daniel the lions’ den — these examples from TaNaK are depicted as empirical events. Cameras from Eye’M Witless news would have shown the sun stopping, the fire coming down, and so forth. Now, one may say, but faith understands such reports in non-literal ways. Some faith does, but some does not. Thus it is that Gould’s NOMA is more a performative utterance, a formula for keeping civil peace perhaps, than it is a universal characterization of religion and rationality.
If you respond to every scientific discovery by saying ‘Oh, that’s how God did it’ you make religion literally unfalsifiable.
What result could disprove religion if you choose to interpret every result that way?
Good on ye! Shout it from the rooftops!
Agreed – indeed, faith and “rational inquiry” might be seen as separate domains.
“Science” (perhaps more correctly, natural philosophy) is concerned with whether a model, paradigm or proposition can be falsified. Faith cannot be falsified, since it’s really not amenable to objective scrutiny. Hence, there need not be any conflict between the spiritual and natural philosophy.
Stephen Jay Gould referred to these two independent spheres as “non-overlapping magisteria”, which always appealed to me as a sensible descriptive.
The question will always remain, however. Where did the material or celestial matter for life first come from and how did it get here? Without a plausible scientific explanation, the Creator option is on par with any attempt then, no?
The question may not always remain. We haven’t yet been able to establish precisely how matter (including dark matter) came into being, but it’s not beyond the realms of scientific discovery that an explanation will emerge whereby invoking a deity becomes redundant.
..nor vice versa, except of course that won’t be scientific will it. Notwithstanding, nuclear physics is getting close is it not?? While Higgs may have hat3d the term God Particle it didn’t arise purely by accident did it?
Exactly, Steve. And wouldn’t that discovery open a can of worms for the believers!
“the believers”? Believers in God? Are they wrong?
Yes. It’s a belief not a fact. Beliefs are subjective.
Is that a fact?
We know it is true. Why would christians die for that belief? Do they know something you don’t know or are not willing to know?
Is that a fact?
We know it is true. Why would christians die for that belief? Do they know something you don’t know or are not willing to know?
Eternity will show that, but faith is something God gives when our hearts are right.
Yes. It’s a belief not a fact. Beliefs are subjective.
Eternity will show that, but faith is something God gives when our hearts are right.
“the believers”? Believers in God? Are they wrong?
Oh I think we’ve got that already with Ed Witten’s vacuum fluctuation plus inflation-just remains to be seen whether it’s once and for ever or infinite bounceback. Covariant quantum fields rule.
..nor vice versa, except of course that won’t be scientific will it. Notwithstanding, nuclear physics is getting close is it not?? While Higgs may have hat3d the term God Particle it didn’t arise purely by accident did it?
Exactly, Steve. And wouldn’t that discovery open a can of worms for the believers!
Oh I think we’ve got that already with Ed Witten’s vacuum fluctuation plus inflation-just remains to be seen whether it’s once and for ever or infinite bounceback. Covariant quantum fields rule.
Well put!
It’s as good a hypothesis as any but of course doesn’t lend itself the the scientific methods and so is dismissed. Check out Steven Meyer on Darwin’s Doubt et al..
But that just kicks the can down the road. Where did the Creator come from? If you say he was always there you can’t defend against others saying the universe has always been there. You’ve just introduced a middleman. If you say there was another creator of the creator, it’s turtles all the way down. The deism of Spinoza and those who followed him into the Enlightenment has always intrigued me in this regard. It seems to be a laudable attempt to grapple with this issue, though poorly understood today.
The things that are not revealed belong only unto God. The things that are revealed belong unto us to do them and follow them. God has not revealed everything but He has and is revealing Himself while the world is here.
The things that are not revealed belong only unto God. The things that are revealed belong unto us to do them and follow them. God has not revealed everything but He has and is revealing Himself while the world is here.
The question may not always remain. We haven’t yet been able to establish precisely how matter (including dark matter) came into being, but it’s not beyond the realms of scientific discovery that an explanation will emerge whereby invoking a deity becomes redundant.
Well put!
It’s as good a hypothesis as any but of course doesn’t lend itself the the scientific methods and so is dismissed. Check out Steven Meyer on Darwin’s Doubt et al..
But that just kicks the can down the road. Where did the Creator come from? If you say he was always there you can’t defend against others saying the universe has always been there. You’ve just introduced a middleman. If you say there was another creator of the creator, it’s turtles all the way down. The deism of Spinoza and those who followed him into the Enlightenment has always intrigued me in this regard. It seems to be a laudable attempt to grapple with this issue, though poorly understood today.
“Religious faith” is a misnomer. Christianity is a faith, not a religion. A religion is a man-made rip-off institution designed through fear and observance to enslave people.. Buddhism by contrast always eschewed religiosity and so survived much better. It too is a Way, not a religion and indeed there is a huge overlap with Christianity.. why wouldn’t there be? There us only one truth, ie only one Way while there are a myriad of religions.
I can agree with much of that, even though i’m neither a Christian or Buddhist. It’s religion as such, followed blindly by multitudes – some of whom are prepared to kill in the name of their god – that i abhor.
Exactly.
Religion can be the enemy of God.
Exactly.
Religion can be the enemy of God.
Buddism seems more like a philosophy except for the reincarnation bit.
“Religious faith” is redundant.
If you can call it faith. Faith in Christ and through Him also the Father is something else.
If you can call it faith. Faith in Christ and through Him also the Father is something else.
I can agree with much of that, even though i’m neither a Christian or Buddhist. It’s religion as such, followed blindly by multitudes – some of whom are prepared to kill in the name of their god – that i abhor.
Buddism seems more like a philosophy except for the reincarnation bit.
“Religious faith” is redundant.
I don’t see much conflict anymore between intelligent design and natural selection. Now that we are sequencing DNA we know that the genetic possibilities are not infinite and they are not random. Applying a field of mathematics called combinatorics to DNA sequences, gives us a very, very large but finite number of genetic combinations that are mathematically possible. Of those, there are likely a lot smaller but still very large number of combinations that are biologically viable. At this point, if you want to consider the biologically viable genetic combinations intelligently designed I don’t think the science is changed at all. The natural selection of Darwin chooses which of the biologically viable designs survive and which don’t. There’s no scientific conflict between intelligent design and survival of the fittest, but there is also no evolution driven by random events. The laws of genetics were all baked in the cake before the natural selection began with the original set of biologically viable designs.
The open questions have to do with the exploration of which of the mathematical genetic combinations are biologically viable. At the moment, we are in the early stages of genetics and can only glimpse that these questions will exist once we get further information. However, I would expect that eventually we will have models that will be able to explore the biologically viable combinations for clues as to hidden aspects of extinct lifeforms. If you want to dwell in the past conflicts of pre-genetic Darwinism versus creationism, enjoy yourself.
The creationists believe G_d designed man. The Darwinists believed man evolved through natural selection. At this point, our knowledge of genetics is leading us towards the position that both are right. So from a scientific point of view, we can stop arguing and get on with more interesting questions.
The faith is that God made the universe the stars and everything. I believe that and have never seen any contradiction. The scriptures show us that the things that are seen were made by the things unseen. that is good enough for me.
What many scientists with christian faith, including myself as a biology graduate, would conclude after some new scientific discovery is “oh, so that’s how God did it!”. Our faith is not based on gaps in scientific understanding, but on what we plainly see with our eyes, what we read in the scriptures, and what we experience in our spirits.
The question will always remain, however. Where did the material or celestial matter for life first come from and how did it get here? Without a plausible scientific explanation, the Creator option is on par with any attempt then, no?
“Religious faith” is a misnomer. Christianity is a faith, not a religion. A religion is a man-made rip-off institution designed through fear and observance to enslave people.. Buddhism by contrast always eschewed religiosity and so survived much better. It too is a Way, not a religion and indeed there is a huge overlap with Christianity.. why wouldn’t there be? There us only one truth, ie only one Way while there are a myriad of religions.
I don’t see much conflict anymore between intelligent design and natural selection. Now that we are sequencing DNA we know that the genetic possibilities are not infinite and they are not random. Applying a field of mathematics called combinatorics to DNA sequences, gives us a very, very large but finite number of genetic combinations that are mathematically possible. Of those, there are likely a lot smaller but still very large number of combinations that are biologically viable. At this point, if you want to consider the biologically viable genetic combinations intelligently designed I don’t think the science is changed at all. The natural selection of Darwin chooses which of the biologically viable designs survive and which don’t. There’s no scientific conflict between intelligent design and survival of the fittest, but there is also no evolution driven by random events. The laws of genetics were all baked in the cake before the natural selection began with the original set of biologically viable designs.
The open questions have to do with the exploration of which of the mathematical genetic combinations are biologically viable. At the moment, we are in the early stages of genetics and can only glimpse that these questions will exist once we get further information. However, I would expect that eventually we will have models that will be able to explore the biologically viable combinations for clues as to hidden aspects of extinct lifeforms. If you want to dwell in the past conflicts of pre-genetic Darwinism versus creationism, enjoy yourself.
The creationists believe G_d designed man. The Darwinists believed man evolved through natural selection. At this point, our knowledge of genetics is leading us towards the position that both are right. So from a scientific point of view, we can stop arguing and get on with more interesting questions.
The faith is that God made the universe the stars and everything. I believe that and have never seen any contradiction. The scriptures show us that the things that are seen were made by the things unseen. that is good enough for me.
Happy Easter to you too. I know it’s Good Friday, but as is quoted above “Sunday is coming!”
Happy blessed Easter to you and everyone..!
I wish you a blessed and happy Easter, too! ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ!
ΑΛΗΘΩΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ..!
HE IS RISEN INDEED..!
ΑΛΗΘΩΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ..!
HE IS RISEN INDEED..!
I wish you a blessed and happy Easter, too! ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ!
It sounds to me like you ARE an observant Christian but have eschewed the man-made controlling religiosity that was never truly Christian. Christianity is a Way, not a religion. Check out Dawkins’ predecessor Anthony Flew.. like you he saw the light, but unlike you (and like Dawkins) he was a devout atheist for most of his life. To be fair he said when the proof came he would change his mind.. it did and he did.
What proof was that?
In my case it’s not about changing one’s mind in the event of “proof”. If such were to emerge, i’d simply shrug and get on with my life. I’ve said before, any god that required to be worshipped wouldn’t be worthy of the name, and since we didn’t ask to be created, worship becomes redundant.
That’s not to say i don’t appreciate spirituality, nature and the universe – quite the reverse. If a god emerged, it’d spoil it for me.
“That’s not to say I don’t appreciate spirituality”. Could you explain what you mean by ‘spirituality’? I’m always puzzled by this sort of remark by atheists.
Connecting with nature is one form of spirituality. Religion another. Cosmic vs. divine. Rejecting man-made (“man”-made, of course…) religions does not make one an atheist. This from a former catholic who loves Easter for the chocolate and traditional “gigot d’agneau”!
What’s spiritual about nature, surely by it’s nature it’s purely material, I mean that’s what nature is, how matter works. Does connecting with it mean you like a nice view of the Downs or something or does it means you appreciate the savagery of most of life on earth?
It’s not really spiritual in itself but it does for me give an appreciation of God’s creation.
It’s not really spiritual in itself but it does for me give an appreciation of God’s creation.
What’s spiritual about nature, surely by it’s nature it’s purely material, I mean that’s what nature is, how matter works. Does connecting with it mean you like a nice view of the Downs or something or does it means you appreciate the savagery of most of life on earth?
That one foxes me too. When I ask it seems to come down to I like nice music and pretty things.
A bit vague really.
A bit vague really.
Connecting with nature is one form of spirituality. Religion another. Cosmic vs. divine. Rejecting man-made (“man”-made, of course…) religions does not make one an atheist. This from a former catholic who loves Easter for the chocolate and traditional “gigot d’agneau”!
That one foxes me too. When I ask it seems to come down to I like nice music and pretty things.
Oh dear.
“That’s not to say I don’t appreciate spirituality”. Could you explain what you mean by ‘spirituality’? I’m always puzzled by this sort of remark by atheists.
Oh dear.
What proof was that?
In my case it’s not about changing one’s mind in the event of “proof”. If such were to emerge, i’d simply shrug and get on with my life. I’ve said before, any god that required to be worshipped wouldn’t be worthy of the name, and since we didn’t ask to be created, worship becomes redundant.
That’s not to say i don’t appreciate spirituality, nature and the universe – quite the reverse. If a god emerged, it’d spoil it for me.
I find myself in a similar position to yourself, attitudinally, spiritually and, it would appear, professionally. I’d also wholeheartedly second (in particular) the last sentence of your comment.
So, a very happy Eastertide to you and yours – and to all of us here gathered – from me and mine.
Indeed, the complexity of the living (and one could even extend this to how the whole of the earth keeps some degree of balance (yest it changes as well)) is beyond our capability to explain/understand fully through simple physics, chemistry and biology.
Our faith nowadays is in linear science. We like to explain things in linear science and trust that this also applies to the living. This is of course an illusion (the religion of the western world?!) as living things are systems part of ever larger systems only behaving in none-linear ways.
And what do we get: the spectacular failure of medicine for chronic illness, a lack of realistic relationship with our surroundings: social and environmental.
A simple protein of 250 amino acids has 20 power 250 different possible combinaisons. The protein depends on precise folding and polarity. “Only” 10 power 40 organisms have lived on earth. The complexity of the cell requires proteins to appear without natural selection. Evolution does not work….it takes a lot of faith to not believe in a God of Creation.
Ditto – a scientist who is no longer a Christian, and now an avid reader of history, I feel a loss of the moral societal framework that Christianity has provided over the millennia, albeit not always for the best. I still practice my life according to the same essential framework, and watch my eldest (23, born a girl, but now part of the trans mass movement that has taken over her very being) struggle with life after Christianity.
A blessed Easter to you and all.
It’s always interesting to hear from someone with a deep study of biology/biochemistry.
Might i enquire whether, should biogenesis be found elsewhere as we expand our ability to explore beyond our own planet, your view might change? If organic compounds developing into cellular life is found to be common, perhaps with many different and strange biochemical bases, would you consider that Faith still plays a part, especially if no other examples other than human religious faith became apparent?
All hypothetical, i know, but i’d still be curious about whether it’s something you’ve considered.
Happy Easter to you too. I know it’s Good Friday, but as is quoted above “Sunday is coming!”
Happy blessed Easter to you and everyone..!
It sounds to me like you ARE an observant Christian but have eschewed the man-made controlling religiosity that was never truly Christian. Christianity is a Way, not a religion. Check out Dawkins’ predecessor Anthony Flew.. like you he saw the light, but unlike you (and like Dawkins) he was a devout atheist for most of his life. To be fair he said when the proof came he would change his mind.. it did and he did.
I find myself in a similar position to yourself, attitudinally, spiritually and, it would appear, professionally. I’d also wholeheartedly second (in particular) the last sentence of your comment.
So, a very happy Eastertide to you and yours – and to all of us here gathered – from me and mine.
Indeed, the complexity of the living (and one could even extend this to how the whole of the earth keeps some degree of balance (yest it changes as well)) is beyond our capability to explain/understand fully through simple physics, chemistry and biology.
Our faith nowadays is in linear science. We like to explain things in linear science and trust that this also applies to the living. This is of course an illusion (the religion of the western world?!) as living things are systems part of ever larger systems only behaving in none-linear ways.
And what do we get: the spectacular failure of medicine for chronic illness, a lack of realistic relationship with our surroundings: social and environmental.
A simple protein of 250 amino acids has 20 power 250 different possible combinaisons. The protein depends on precise folding and polarity. “Only” 10 power 40 organisms have lived on earth. The complexity of the cell requires proteins to appear without natural selection. Evolution does not work….it takes a lot of faith to not believe in a God of Creation.
Ditto – a scientist who is no longer a Christian, and now an avid reader of history, I feel a loss of the moral societal framework that Christianity has provided over the millennia, albeit not always for the best. I still practice my life according to the same essential framework, and watch my eldest (23, born a girl, but now part of the trans mass movement that has taken over her very being) struggle with life after Christianity.
“With that science came the steady withdrawal of God from His creation…”
No doubt that assertion is correct overall, but as someone who spent the first part of his career as a chemist/biochemist I never found any contradiction between science and faith. The longer I studied the working of biological systems (even such “simple” systems as a single cell) the less I understood how they worked. Each successive wave of technology (PCR, gene chips, chromatography-mass spectrometry) revealed a greater layer of complexity until even a single cell became an improbable Rube Goldberg machine, too complicated to function–but somehow it did function. I can readily believe there is a unifying force underlying life that will never be explained by science and can better be explained by religious faith.
I am no longer an observant Christian, but deep down I retain a certain form of faith. I’m pleased that the Unherd comments section, although an unlikely forum, is a place where I can say “Happy Easter” and many people will not be offended by that remark.
Beautiful.
The whole Christian story is that God brings Resurrection out of Crucifixion, Easter out of Good Friday, life out of death.
As the old Black preacher said,
“It’s Friday–but Sunday’s coming!”
Easter was a pagan ritual, nature based on the solstice co-opted by Christianity. It was the spring solstice when animals gave birth – a renewal of life. Christmas was the winter solstice with soulful carols like “the holly and the Ivy’ and “in the deep mid winter”. I can relate to that.
In the deep midwinter … in Jerusalem and the Mediterranean communities in which Christianity was born and took root for hundreds of years?
My point is that the pagan, nature based rituals that were around before Christianity co-opted them, had lovely winter solstice carols like “In the deep midwinter, frosty winds made moan” rather than “hark the herald angels sing”. A belief in the supernatural is not required to be spiritual rather than Christian, and that’s my preference.
My point is that the pagan, nature based rituals that were around before Christianity co-opted them, had lovely winter solstice carols like “In the deep midwinter, frosty winds made moan” rather than “hark the herald angels sing”. A belief in the supernatural is not required to be spiritual rather than Christian, and that’s my preference.
In the deep midwinter … in Jerusalem and the Mediterranean communities in which Christianity was born and took root for hundreds of years?
I also believe there are unicorns and elephants are pink…
Exactly, Danielle. And the thing about having a belief is that one is constantly having to defend it against fact.
Exactly, Danielle. And the thing about having a belief is that one is constantly having to defend it against fact.
Excellent and heart-felt post. May you have a blessed Easter!
Easter was a pagan ritual, nature based on the solstice co-opted by Christianity. It was the spring solstice when animals gave birth – a renewal of life. Christmas was the winter solstice with soulful carols like “the holly and the Ivy’ and “in the deep mid winter”. I can relate to that.
I also believe there are unicorns and elephants are pink…
Excellent and heart-felt post. May you have a blessed Easter!
Beautiful.
The whole Christian story is that God brings Resurrection out of Crucifixion, Easter out of Good Friday, life out of death.
As the old Black preacher said,
“It’s Friday–but Sunday’s coming!”
Have a look at the Guardian cartoon today – a caricature figure of the present King squirming before the figure of Christ on the cross (well, his feet anyway), and a moronic caption aimed at equating the pair of them as ‘nepo children’.
The editorial decision to knock this one up for publication on Good Friday seems rather unpleasant; and of course immediately makes one wonder if we Guardianisti would be chortling quite so comfortably if the joke had been aimed at an Islamic target. Or even the poor bloody Druids.
It’s a marker perhaps of how low on the public scale the few remaining Christians whose offendability is guaranteed are now placed.
So brave. I look forward to a similarly insulting image of Mo to mark the occasion of Eid. The editor of the Guardian is married to Adrian Chiles, who I believe is a practising Catholic. Might he have a word with her?
I look forward to the depiction of MLK as a sex offender
Why, were any of his affairs with underage or unwilling partners?
Try this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/martin-luther-king-rape-fbi-tapes-video-mlk-laugh-files-a8932206.html
Try this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/martin-luther-king-rape-fbi-tapes-video-mlk-laugh-files-a8932206.html
Why, were any of his affairs with underage or unwilling partners?
I look forward to the depiction of MLK as a sex offender
Surprised to read that you’re a Guardianista. You seem to lack the necessary superciliousness.
I must try harder. Ten minutes with the Guardian online each morning is my personal attempt to achieve a balanced outlook – the occasional reward of a laugh-out-loud moment – eg a comment today on a couple of hours’ travel chaos at St Pancras last Friday as ‘like the last train out of Saigon’ – is an incidental bonus.
I must try harder. Ten minutes with the Guardian online each morning is my personal attempt to achieve a balanced outlook – the occasional reward of a laugh-out-loud moment – eg a comment today on a couple of hours’ travel chaos at St Pancras last Friday as ‘like the last train out of Saigon’ – is an incidental bonus.
They’d never mawk Mohammad that way out of fear of getting shot up. Christians have become soft targets – part of Mary’s point, I think.
The Guardian is a disgusting rag. I wouldn’t dignify it with the title of “newspaper”!
So brave. I look forward to a similarly insulting image of Mo to mark the occasion of Eid. The editor of the Guardian is married to Adrian Chiles, who I believe is a practising Catholic. Might he have a word with her?
Surprised to read that you’re a Guardianista. You seem to lack the necessary superciliousness.
They’d never mawk Mohammad that way out of fear of getting shot up. Christians have become soft targets – part of Mary’s point, I think.
The Guardian is a disgusting rag. I wouldn’t dignify it with the title of “newspaper”!
Have a look at the Guardian cartoon today – a caricature figure of the present King squirming before the figure of Christ on the cross (well, his feet anyway), and a moronic caption aimed at equating the pair of them as ‘nepo children’.
The editorial decision to knock this one up for publication on Good Friday seems rather unpleasant; and of course immediately makes one wonder if we Guardianisti would be chortling quite so comfortably if the joke had been aimed at an Islamic target. Or even the poor bloody Druids.
It’s a marker perhaps of how low on the public scale the few remaining Christians whose offendability is guaranteed are now placed.
“we live under a newly-ascendant post-Christian moral regime, that sanctifies God’s abandonment of His creation and bans those who dissent from political office.”
Thank you for this thoughtful article, Mary Harrington. I have long felt that I live in a souless land, that is an Australia whose mainstream life ignores the fact that for millennia human life on this continent has depended on respect for and co-operation with spiritual reality. Sad that much of the rest of the human world has become similarly adrift.
I’m sure the Aboriginal peoples would agree with you. However, they were displaced from their homelands, where they’d existed for millennia with geocentric belief systems, by “god-fearing” folk
Hello Steve:
I am not sure I understand your point. Can you please clarify?
The aboriginal.peoples were forcibly removed from their ancestral lands in Australia, where their religious beliefs were embedded in the earth and nature around them. Their art, expressed on local rock faces which reflects those beliefs, is among the oldest ever found.
The displacement took place by European settlers whose primary religion was Christianity. Similarly, the native indian tribes of North America.
Bless your heart, Steve! This is sort of PKD (Performative Knowledge Display) is straight out of the Leftist Fundamentalist 101 playbook.
Look for a heartfelt post or comment.
Bring up something historical that implies the poster is at least ignorant, at worst a hypocrite.
You know who lives on land that was “stolen” from some previous inhabitant? Literally everyone, Steve – including you. This is not to say it was fair by modern standards, it just is and is done, and there’s no going back.
Try to engage with the actual subject matter rather than just doing passive-aggressive drive-by. Or don’t comment.
Please.
“Performative Knowledge Display” – Lovely! Tribes have been shoving other tribes aside from the beginning of tribes. The effort to force us back into warring tribes is the basis of PKD.
Nevertheless it’s true.
Nevertheless it’s true.
Rubbish. I’m most clearly not of the left, as anyone who reads my {frequent) comments would attest.
Bless my heart? The level of trite condescension in those words is beyond measure.
If you were able to refute what i posted, i’d have some respect for you. As it is, your lack of insight and understanding does the human brain and soul an injustice.
I’m with you Steve, and what’s wrong with being “left”? Perhaps it means you’re compassionate.
I’m with you Steve, and what’s wrong with being “left”? Perhaps it means you’re compassionate.
Screw you, David. Have you no better defense except the old “what about?”
We can comment as we choose. Diversity is interesting.
Homogeneity is interesting as well
Homogeneity is interesting as well
“Performative Knowledge Display” – Lovely! Tribes have been shoving other tribes aside from the beginning of tribes. The effort to force us back into warring tribes is the basis of PKD.
Rubbish. I’m most clearly not of the left, as anyone who reads my {frequent) comments would attest.
Bless my heart? The level of trite condescension in those words is beyond measure.
If you were able to refute what i posted, i’d have some respect for you. As it is, your lack of insight and understanding does the human brain and soul an injustice.
Screw you, David. Have you no better defense except the old “what about?”
We can comment as we choose. Diversity is interesting.
Is it their faith that drove them or possibly an eager for profit and welth no matter the cost on others..?
Or perhaps they used their faith to justify their greed, it seems to work that way alot, just look at the Catholic church in Rome and many other churches in America. So many sins done in the name of god.
Or perhaps they used their faith to justify their greed, it seems to work that way alot, just look at the Catholic church in Rome and many other churches in America. So many sins done in the name of god.
There is nothing in Christian doctrine or belief systems that advocates the removal of people from their homeland. Humans of all stripes are hypocrites, including Christians. Please stop trying to pin all of the world’s ills on Christianity. It is extremely offensive.
The Doctrine of Discovery . . .
It’s not just Christiianity. Where there is “god”, which is a believe in the supernatural, it lends itself to abuse. The old “fear of god” thing.What the hell is “god” anyway!! If you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe.
The Doctrine of Discovery . . .
It’s not just Christiianity. Where there is “god”, which is a believe in the supernatural, it lends itself to abuse. The old “fear of god” thing.What the hell is “god” anyway!! If you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe.
Stone age cultures do not deserve, nor can they keep a continent to themselves. Westerners cannot keep invaders, illegal immigrants or now, migrants, out of their countries and so will be replaced by more fecund and less demoralized cultures. If the Chinese wanted Australia and there were only aborigines there, then China would take it over and use the aborigines for target practice.
What’s your point? Man’s inhumanity to man?
What’s your point? Man’s inhumanity to man?
I suspect most of the Aboriginal peoples were forcibly removed from ‘their’ land by other Aboriginals. Or did the removing. Not many would have found a clear space, settled down and never been moved on.
Same for the American Indians. Like the Normans moved the Saxons who moved the Britons who had already moved the people before them and so on back to the first people in Britain (who were probably forced out of France or wherever)
We can’t do anything about injustice that far back, but we can learn from it and try to do better, rather than using the past to justify injustice in the present.
We can’t do anything about injustice that far back, but we can learn from it and try to do better, rather than using the past to justify injustice in the present.
I got another down tick when I voted up!!! god damnit.
Sorry to see you yourself are getting so many downticks. Some of your posts are mildly provocative but others are reasonable and should not be the object of negativity. Using phrases such as “Goddamnit” and “screw you” may colour some responses, but it’s maybe up to other readers to exercise some tolerance.
I thought the “god damnit” was amusing since the topic is god. I don’t mind gettingdown ticks it’s good sport. It’s the whole voting system that has me bewildered. Red, green, a minus sign, when I give an upvote the number goes down stc. Am I the only one who’s confused?
The votes don’t dynamically update on this comment platform. When you vote it refreshes so you see all the changes since you loaded the page applied at once, not just your own vote.
The votes don’t dynamically update on this comment platform. When you vote it refreshes so you see all the changes since you loaded the page applied at once, not just your own vote.
I thought the “god damnit” was amusing since the topic is god. I don’t mind gettingdown ticks it’s good sport. It’s the whole voting system that has me bewildered. Red, green, a minus sign, when I give an upvote the number goes down stc. Am I the only one who’s confused?
Sorry to see you yourself are getting so many downticks. Some of your posts are mildly provocative but others are reasonable and should not be the object of negativity. Using phrases such as “Goddamnit” and “screw you” may colour some responses, but it’s maybe up to other readers to exercise some tolerance.
I think the native American were happy to much the same thing to each other. It is just that the Europeans were the last ad most successful
There were no “native Americans”. There were only earlier immigrant pioneers. Genetics has well established our common links with native modern humans in Africa, along with numerous migrations from there around the globe. There have been four or five groups of pioneers to the Americas long before Europeans landed there. The second wave pioneers displaced and almost completely wiped out the first wave. The third wave did so in North America but seemed to have stopped short at Mexico, but curiously branched off such that part of them went west across north Asia and ended up as far as England which resulted in the curious fact that northern Europeans are more closely related to “Native Americans” than the latter are to modern east Asians who displaced their ancestors. The history of human migrations as is being unwound by analyzing DNA is challenging many of our most cherished ideas about history and oppression. I think it is fascinating.
It is fascinating, Jeff. Thanks for the info.
It is fascinating, Jeff. Thanks for the info.
There were no “native Americans”. There were only earlier immigrant pioneers. Genetics has well established our common links with native modern humans in Africa, along with numerous migrations from there around the globe. There have been four or five groups of pioneers to the Americas long before Europeans landed there. The second wave pioneers displaced and almost completely wiped out the first wave. The third wave did so in North America but seemed to have stopped short at Mexico, but curiously branched off such that part of them went west across north Asia and ended up as far as England which resulted in the curious fact that northern Europeans are more closely related to “Native Americans” than the latter are to modern east Asians who displaced their ancestors. The history of human migrations as is being unwound by analyzing DNA is challenging many of our most cherished ideas about history and oppression. I think it is fascinating.
The crimes of ‘god fearing folk’ are legion and only exceeded in number and egregiousness by those committed by atheists in the name of Science.
Bless your heart, Steve! This is sort of PKD (Performative Knowledge Display) is straight out of the Leftist Fundamentalist 101 playbook.
Look for a heartfelt post or comment.
Bring up something historical that implies the poster is at least ignorant, at worst a hypocrite.
You know who lives on land that was “stolen” from some previous inhabitant? Literally everyone, Steve – including you. This is not to say it was fair by modern standards, it just is and is done, and there’s no going back.
Try to engage with the actual subject matter rather than just doing passive-aggressive drive-by. Or don’t comment.
Please.
Is it their faith that drove them or possibly an eager for profit and welth no matter the cost on others..?
There is nothing in Christian doctrine or belief systems that advocates the removal of people from their homeland. Humans of all stripes are hypocrites, including Christians. Please stop trying to pin all of the world’s ills on Christianity. It is extremely offensive.
Stone age cultures do not deserve, nor can they keep a continent to themselves. Westerners cannot keep invaders, illegal immigrants or now, migrants, out of their countries and so will be replaced by more fecund and less demoralized cultures. If the Chinese wanted Australia and there were only aborigines there, then China would take it over and use the aborigines for target practice.
I suspect most of the Aboriginal peoples were forcibly removed from ‘their’ land by other Aboriginals. Or did the removing. Not many would have found a clear space, settled down and never been moved on.
Same for the American Indians. Like the Normans moved the Saxons who moved the Britons who had already moved the people before them and so on back to the first people in Britain (who were probably forced out of France or wherever)
I got another down tick when I voted up!!! god damnit.
I think the native American were happy to much the same thing to each other. It is just that the Europeans were the last ad most successful
The crimes of ‘god fearing folk’ are legion and only exceeded in number and egregiousness by those committed by atheists in the name of Science.
The aboriginal.peoples were forcibly removed from their ancestral lands in Australia, where their religious beliefs were embedded in the earth and nature around them. Their art, expressed on local rock faces which reflects those beliefs, is among the oldest ever found.
The displacement took place by European settlers whose primary religion was Christianity. Similarly, the native indian tribes of North America.
My lot came out of Africa and nicked the land from the Neanderthals.
Hence your name?
Your ancestors came out of Africa too.
That’s ok with me.
That’s ok with me.
Your ancestors came out of Africa too.
Who came out of Africa earlier.
Aha … key question. It’s complicated ……
Aha … key question. It’s complicated ……
Hence your name?
Who came out of Africa earlier.
Steve Murray I am amazed that so many people want to argue the point about this. What I am saying, as one who lives in Australia, is that our nation is spiritually impoverished, made incredibly materially rich by exploitation of the minerals beneath our feet, but left spiritually very, very shallow. Some of us realise that this is a state of affairs that is only two centuries and a bit old. Before that things were different.
If you want proof of what I am saying, consider the many millions of hot cross buns that have been sold and devoured by Australians since January 2, our annual three-month orgy. How many Australians have the slightest idea of what the cross on the bun means?
There is a depth of spirit among indigenous people of this land that has survived all our attempts to tame it, even erase it. Currently I am reading Alexis Wright’s new book “Praiseworthy.” I recommend others have a go at reading it and trying to come to understand where the author is coming from.
I get what your saying,Janet, but I think it’s ok to eat hot cross buns and not know what they mean. The exploitatiion of minerals not so much, or the exporting of billions of tons of coal. But what will Australia do without that income?
Clare, you might have heard that there is now a baker making hot cross buns without the cross! Perhaps we could call them “secular hot buns”. But . . . . Woolworths has had to recall some of its buns because . . . they have METAL in them! Reminding us of the crucifix nails? Perhaps Woollies has had dealings with an undercover Christian baker?
As for living with all that income, most of us already do so. I guess the billionaires have discovered already ways to keep their wealth safe. Interestingly, there have been two letters to the editor in our regional newspaper in the past week from older folk who recall second world wartime restrictions and remembering that people were nonetheless happy, inviting us all to live more simply.
Secular hot buns, yum, yum! Ah yes, the wealthy. Of course the rich still get richer and the poor still get poorer everywhere in the world and it’s doubtful it will ever change. But I think you’re speaking of inner wealth through simplicity and lack of materialism that people experienced during WW2 . There was community through a common struggle and it brought out the best in people. Even with rationing in the UK people became healthier. These are the good things that Christianity aspires to but I just wish we could have it without war or a belief in the supernatural.
Hot buns maybe? Hot question mark buns doesn’t have the right ring to it.
Secular hot buns, yum, yum! Ah yes, the wealthy. Of course the rich still get richer and the poor still get poorer everywhere in the world and it’s doubtful it will ever change. But I think you’re speaking of inner wealth through simplicity and lack of materialism that people experienced during WW2 . There was community through a common struggle and it brought out the best in people. Even with rationing in the UK people became healthier. These are the good things that Christianity aspires to but I just wish we could have it without war or a belief in the supernatural.
Hot buns maybe? Hot question mark buns doesn’t have the right ring to it.
Clare, you might have heard that there is now a baker making hot cross buns without the cross! Perhaps we could call them “secular hot buns”. But . . . . Woolworths has had to recall some of its buns because . . . they have METAL in them! Reminding us of the crucifix nails? Perhaps Woollies has had dealings with an undercover Christian baker?
As for living with all that income, most of us already do so. I guess the billionaires have discovered already ways to keep their wealth safe. Interestingly, there have been two letters to the editor in our regional newspaper in the past week from older folk who recall second world wartime restrictions and remembering that people were nonetheless happy, inviting us all to live more simply.
I get what your saying,Janet, but I think it’s ok to eat hot cross buns and not know what they mean. The exploitatiion of minerals not so much, or the exporting of billions of tons of coal. But what will Australia do without that income?
Exactly, but I still don’t understand the voting system here – I gave you an uptick, Steve, and it went down. Would someone please explain it to me. Upherd has not responded to my request for an explaination.
Observations on the voting system. From what I can see, at the point when your vote is registered the overall count is also updated. Very often the count jumps significantly in one direction or another when you vote. No skullduggery evident.
Thanks, I stilll don”t get it but that’s ok. It would be simpler to just have an up vote and a down vote wouldn’t it, for those of us who are math challenged.
He’s saying that at the time you voted other people had been voting too since the last time the JavaScript timer in your browser kicked off a page refresh. Your vote kicks one off though, and so you see the effect of not just your vote but that of other people’s too.
Yikes!!
Thank you for your concision.
Yikes!!
Thank you for your concision.
He’s saying that at the time you voted other people had been voting too since the last time the JavaScript timer in your browser kicked off a page refresh. Your vote kicks one off though, and so you see the effect of not just your vote but that of other people’s too.
Thanks, I stilll don”t get it but that’s ok. It would be simpler to just have an up vote and a down vote wouldn’t it, for those of us who are math challenged.
Observations on the voting system. From what I can see, at the point when your vote is registered the overall count is also updated. Very often the count jumps significantly in one direction or another when you vote. No skullduggery evident.
Hello Steve:
I am not sure I understand your point. Can you please clarify?
My lot came out of Africa and nicked the land from the Neanderthals.
Steve Murray I am amazed that so many people want to argue the point about this. What I am saying, as one who lives in Australia, is that our nation is spiritually impoverished, made incredibly materially rich by exploitation of the minerals beneath our feet, but left spiritually very, very shallow. Some of us realise that this is a state of affairs that is only two centuries and a bit old. Before that things were different.
If you want proof of what I am saying, consider the many millions of hot cross buns that have been sold and devoured by Australians since January 2, our annual three-month orgy. How many Australians have the slightest idea of what the cross on the bun means?
There is a depth of spirit among indigenous people of this land that has survived all our attempts to tame it, even erase it. Currently I am reading Alexis Wright’s new book “Praiseworthy.” I recommend others have a go at reading it and trying to come to understand where the author is coming from.
Exactly, but I still don’t understand the voting system here – I gave you an uptick, Steve, and it went down. Would someone please explain it to me. Upherd has not responded to my request for an explaination.
Australia is a delightful place to live because it is secular and not afflicted with the god awful religiosity of America.
Afflicted with the religion of transideology it would seem judging from recent events around the Let Women Speak events recently organised by Kellie-Jay Keen in the Antipodes. Blind faith in the dogma that changing sex is possible in mammals and trying to kill the person who disagrees?? Sounds familiar….
What?!! That’s a huge leap.
Whaaaat? And here we go again; hysterical American at work.
What?!! That’s a huge leap.
Whaaaat? And here we go again; hysterical American at work.
Bad timing today, unless your goal is to be offensive to Christians.
Offending “Christians” isn’t that difficult to do.
Offending “Christians” isn’t that difficult to do.
Afflicted with the religion of transideology it would seem judging from recent events around the Let Women Speak events recently organised by Kellie-Jay Keen in the Antipodes. Blind faith in the dogma that changing sex is possible in mammals and trying to kill the person who disagrees?? Sounds familiar….
Bad timing today, unless your goal is to be offensive to Christians.
I’m sure the Aboriginal peoples would agree with you. However, they were displaced from their homelands, where they’d existed for millennia with geocentric belief systems, by “god-fearing” folk
Australia is a delightful place to live because it is secular and not afflicted with the god awful religiosity of America.
“we live under a newly-ascendant post-Christian moral regime, that sanctifies God’s abandonment of His creation and bans those who dissent from political office.”
Thank you for this thoughtful article, Mary Harrington. I have long felt that I live in a souless land, that is an Australia whose mainstream life ignores the fact that for millennia human life on this continent has depended on respect for and co-operation with spiritual reality. Sad that much of the rest of the human world has become similarly adrift.
Harrington’s talent has reached colossal proportion… I only wish she was wrong.
Harrington’s talent has reached colossal proportion… I only wish she was wrong.
A great essay. But in my case, what I wrote about in the essay you linked to was not motivated by despair. A Christian can’t feel despair. The world is already overcome, and in the end, the devil loses. Actually a retreat to the catacombs can be motivated certainly by realism, but also paradoxically by joy. The stripping back of the faith allows its followers to get to the essentials again.
It’s also worth saying, of course, that when Christ called out those words on the cross he was not despairing either. He was beginning to recite Psalm 22, which begins ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ It’s a story of someone who believes himself abandoned, who is in the end saved. Christ wasn’t despairing: he was signalling to those watching his death what was about to happen. That’s what we can do too as Christendom expires.
As someone deeply influenced by your work I also paused at the word despair. Myself, I wallow in it, confess it, try to live a meaningful life despite it, and find myself still flailing but I read you as an antidote, as I also read Mary, to help explain what is going on to someone whose generation should be passing on the reins.(this despite the fact that the two old men, the would be once and future and current presidents of the US are each old enough to be my father, had they married right out of high school, a ridiculous thought). I find in your work the very opposite of despair – hope.
“…he was signalling to those watching his death what was about to happen.”
That may be what Nietzsche meant to do, too. I can’t say. But, in any case, one suspects he would not be impressed by his latter-day acolytes. The affirmation of “Life” really is not their thing!
Excellent post. There will be a great “falling away” and apostasy towards the end, and Christians (already the most persecuted people in the world) will be a remnant.
“A Christian can’t feel despair”
Statements like this are what drove me out of Christianity. A Calvinist response about “never really a Christian” would most likely follow in the other person’s mind. Seeing this line of thinking again takes me back to the times I was able to breathe a sigh of relief in my soul when I looked at the Amalfi coast, the grey rocks, the grey sea, the grey sky and thought of a world without God and how much peace it gave me.
As someone deeply influenced by your work I also paused at the word despair. Myself, I wallow in it, confess it, try to live a meaningful life despite it, and find myself still flailing but I read you as an antidote, as I also read Mary, to help explain what is going on to someone whose generation should be passing on the reins.(this despite the fact that the two old men, the would be once and future and current presidents of the US are each old enough to be my father, had they married right out of high school, a ridiculous thought). I find in your work the very opposite of despair – hope.
“…he was signalling to those watching his death what was about to happen.”
That may be what Nietzsche meant to do, too. I can’t say. But, in any case, one suspects he would not be impressed by his latter-day acolytes. The affirmation of “Life” really is not their thing!
Excellent post. There will be a great “falling away” and apostasy towards the end, and Christians (already the most persecuted people in the world) will be a remnant.
“A Christian can’t feel despair”
Statements like this are what drove me out of Christianity. A Calvinist response about “never really a Christian” would most likely follow in the other person’s mind. Seeing this line of thinking again takes me back to the times I was able to breathe a sigh of relief in my soul when I looked at the Amalfi coast, the grey rocks, the grey sea, the grey sky and thought of a world without God and how much peace it gave me.
A great essay. But in my case, what I wrote about in the essay you linked to was not motivated by despair. A Christian can’t feel despair. The world is already overcome, and in the end, the devil loses. Actually a retreat to the catacombs can be motivated certainly by realism, but also paradoxically by joy. The stripping back of the faith allows its followers to get to the essentials again.
It’s also worth saying, of course, that when Christ called out those words on the cross he was not despairing either. He was beginning to recite Psalm 22, which begins ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ It’s a story of someone who believes himself abandoned, who is in the end saved. Christ wasn’t despairing: he was signalling to those watching his death what was about to happen. That’s what we can do too as Christendom expires.
Anecdotally, I think the declining C of E congregations is a red herring – other denominations, such as Evangelical and Baptists, are growing, and existing congregations tend to be a mix of both young and old.
I’m an atheist but was brought up in the Catholic and then Anclican traditions and I find there to be a great deal of wisdom in many of the religions (and not just the Abrahamic). In my view we turn away from this wisdom at our peril, and my impression is that many feel the same.
This overweening individualism we see around us now is, in my opinion, forever tripping over its own feet (“I can do whatever I want! Oh no, I’ve caused myself harm while doing whatever I want! Now everyone must heed my cries of anguish!”)
Apologies for the meandering comment. I think all I mean to say is that even if one doesn’t embrace the orthodoxies of any faith, there is often something worth listening to. And I personally don’t find the same substantial wisdom in any of the ideologies or belief systems which claim to be able to replace spiritual belief.
The spirit of revival is in the air in the Southern U.S. Our large church is growing so fast it can’t keep up. I’m seeing this kind of growth & excitement throughout the region. I can’t speak to the churches that embrace progressivism, but the evangelical &/or conservative churches seem to be attracting a lot of young to middle-aged people who never would have imagined themselves there even a few years ago. I’m one of them: lifelong agnostic, recent convert. The church is very much alive and vibrant in our neck of the woods, although I understand that’s clearly not the case in Mary’s (and that of many others).
Also interesting to read about the ascendancy of Christianity (particularly charismatic &/or evangelical stripes) throughout Africa. From 2016, but I believe this growth has only continued apace: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/trend/archive/summer-2016/how-africa-is-changing-faith-around-the-world
God forbid!! Christian Nationalism”” is on the rise in the American south and it’s dangerous and scary.
I’m a resident of “the None Zone” the the US (Pacific NW), so called because of the number of people who list “None” for religious affiliation on forms. And one might despair at the drift away from faith up here. But even here you can find very vibrant, growing Christian churches. I’m blessed to be a member of one in the Reformed tradition.
The mainline and Catholic denominations may be losing members, but as you say, there is revival going on. Christianity was born and flourished in a climate of persecution and political hostility. The blood of martyrs has been the seed of the Church, and perhaps the faithful are being called to walk our talk and return to a more stripped-down, genuine, sacrificial faith.
Blessings to you on your coming to the faith, Emily. And a blessed, Happy Easter to all. The tomb will be empty on Sunday, for He will be risen!
Nicely said!
Hallelujah, Praise the Lord, and Kentucky Fried Chicken!
Funny!
Funny!
Excellent and well-reasoned post. I wish you a blessed Easter.
Nicely said!
Hallelujah, Praise the Lord, and Kentucky Fried Chicken!
Excellent and well-reasoned post. I wish you a blessed Easter.
God forbid!! Christian Nationalism”” is on the rise in the American south and it’s dangerous and scary.
I’m a resident of “the None Zone” the the US (Pacific NW), so called because of the number of people who list “None” for religious affiliation on forms. And one might despair at the drift away from faith up here. But even here you can find very vibrant, growing Christian churches. I’m blessed to be a member of one in the Reformed tradition.
The mainline and Catholic denominations may be losing members, but as you say, there is revival going on. Christianity was born and flourished in a climate of persecution and political hostility. The blood of martyrs has been the seed of the Church, and perhaps the faithful are being called to walk our talk and return to a more stripped-down, genuine, sacrificial faith.
Blessings to you on your coming to the faith, Emily. And a blessed, Happy Easter to all. The tomb will be empty on Sunday, for He will be risen!
Wow..! You totally sound like Christ’s prayer when crying aloud “why hast thou forsaken me..?” Behold..! Easter is at a glance..!
But the followers of these systems claim they are “spiritual”, whatever that means.
You speak for me in better words than I could find. Thank you.
The spirit of revival is in the air in the Southern U.S. Our large church is growing so fast it can’t keep up. I’m seeing this kind of growth & excitement throughout the region. I can’t speak to the churches that embrace progressivism, but the evangelical &/or conservative churches seem to be attracting a lot of young to middle-aged people who never would have imagined themselves there even a few years ago. I’m one of them: lifelong agnostic, recent convert. The church is very much alive and vibrant in our neck of the woods, although I understand that’s clearly not the case in Mary’s (and that of many others).
Also interesting to read about the ascendancy of Christianity (particularly charismatic &/or evangelical stripes) throughout Africa. From 2016, but I believe this growth has only continued apace: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/trend/archive/summer-2016/how-africa-is-changing-faith-around-the-world
Wow..! You totally sound like Christ’s prayer when crying aloud “why hast thou forsaken me..?” Behold..! Easter is at a glance..!
But the followers of these systems claim they are “spiritual”, whatever that means.
You speak for me in better words than I could find. Thank you.
Anecdotally, I think the declining C of E congregations is a red herring – other denominations, such as Evangelical and Baptists, are growing, and existing congregations tend to be a mix of both young and old.
I’m an atheist but was brought up in the Catholic and then Anclican traditions and I find there to be a great deal of wisdom in many of the religions (and not just the Abrahamic). In my view we turn away from this wisdom at our peril, and my impression is that many feel the same.
This overweening individualism we see around us now is, in my opinion, forever tripping over its own feet (“I can do whatever I want! Oh no, I’ve caused myself harm while doing whatever I want! Now everyone must heed my cries of anguish!”)
Apologies for the meandering comment. I think all I mean to say is that even if one doesn’t embrace the orthodoxies of any faith, there is often something worth listening to. And I personally don’t find the same substantial wisdom in any of the ideologies or belief systems which claim to be able to replace spiritual belief.
Thank you for such a hopeful message in this age of darkness. God bless to fellow Christians and to all people.
May God bless you too at this Easter time!
As for the days we live in, “And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not overcome it.” John 1:5.
May God bless you too at this Easter time!
As for the days we live in, “And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not overcome it.” John 1:5.
Thank you for such a hopeful message in this age of darkness. God bless to fellow Christians and to all people.
This article made me think of what Christianity means to me and I find myself in a place where there is a deep connection to my fellow humans, a place where compassion and love overcome the transient ego driven fears and enmities. Happy Easter to all.
This article made me think of what Christianity means to me and I find myself in a place where there is a deep connection to my fellow humans, a place where compassion and love overcome the transient ego driven fears and enmities. Happy Easter to all.
Terrific, in every meaning of the word, archaic root and all.
Terrific, in every meaning of the word, archaic root and all.
As a Christian, such a delight to see one of my favorite writers embrace and write so beautifully on the hope and joy of Easter.
It is Maundy Thursday here in the US right now, and the darkness of today, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday are sometimes too familiar in the world at present. But the joy of Easter is coming
Yes! A couple of days and once again we are reminded: “He is risen, He is risen, Huzzah Huzzah!”
Yes, HE IS TRULY RISEN! ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ! ΑΛΗΘΩΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ!
Yes, HE IS TRULY RISEN! ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ! ΑΛΗΘΩΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ!
Yes! A couple of days and once again we are reminded: “He is risen, He is risen, Huzzah Huzzah!”
As a Christian, such a delight to see one of my favorite writers embrace and write so beautifully on the hope and joy of Easter.
It is Maundy Thursday here in the US right now, and the darkness of today, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday are sometimes too familiar in the world at present. But the joy of Easter is coming
Does matter matter? The Enlightenment world sprang out of Protestantism — an individualized politics for an individualized faith. It is hardly surprising that today’s Enlightenment descendants separate matter and divinity. Becuase once you accept that separation, matter is just stuff that you can shape however you want.
People think arcane theological debates about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist don’t matter (pun intended). In truth, these theological questions have very far reaching and often unintended effects.
Thank you for this.
I would go further however – materialism grew out of the enlightenment / protestantism: scientific materialism and the cultural materialism it bore and which now consumes us. Knowing as we do since the early 20th century that energy is matter and vice versa, it is sad that the basis for the thrall in which the pioneers of quantum mechanics held eastern philosophies, where they found an understanding of reality reflecting their own discoveries, has, as yet, failed to take root in the Western consciousness.
When it does, and when the Western world sheds its hubristic idea that the Catholic/Christian church and its interpretation of Jesus’s life and teachings is the only socially acceptable form of spirituality, perhaps we will evolve into post-materialist societies infinitely more loving and connected than at present.
That uplifting of love, that transformation, born of a felt awareness of the (now scientific) knowledge that everything is fundamentally inter-connected, was what Jesus sought for all of us, at an individual and wider societal level. It was as revolutionary then as it is now and it was for that that he was sacrificed.
That’s a very interesting interpretation, I can relate to that.
Thank you Clare. It is so, so important. My website is http://www.tigereyehealing.com
Very interesting- I upvoted your comment so someone has downvoted it. I cannot imagine why they would strongly enough to do so!
I don’t understand the voting system at all, when I give votes, it seems very complicated. But I gather I got numerous downvotes, which is to be expected. It’s fun, nevertheless, to add a bit of spice to the prevailing views. Or to go where angels fear to tread!!!
I don’t understand the voting system at all, when I give votes, it seems very complicated. But I gather I got numerous downvotes, which is to be expected. It’s fun, nevertheless, to add a bit of spice to the prevailing views. Or to go where angels fear to tread!!!
Thank you Clare. It is so, so important. My website is http://www.tigereyehealing.com
Very interesting- I upvoted your comment so someone has downvoted it. I cannot imagine why they would strongly enough to do so!
The Eastern Christian tradition actually doesn’t have quite the same view on the relationship between divinity and matter as prevailed in the West (even the Catholic version). In the Eastern Christian view, God’s “energies” are fully present in the “matter” of the world, as a kind of cosmic energy flow that permeates all reality and sustains it in a dynamic, living flow of energy. The division between “natural” and “supernatural” gets blurred somewhat in this view, and the connection between everything becomes clearer as well, much more than in the conventional view that ended up prevailing in the West that “creator” and “creature” were distinct in their metaphysical “essence” and therefore matter is, in the end, just created “stuff” — perhaps stuff that may, in the Western view, point one towards the maker of that stuff, or reflect some other broader theme (later secular, artistic, etc., themes), but not something that was, itself. connected to the maker in any ongoing way. The Christian East views the issue very differently, due to the East’s idea of “divine energies”. St. Gregory Palamas was the leading exponent of the view, which developed in responser to to Western Christian scholasticism and its tendencies to separate the divine from the material — and, yes, it did lead to yet another unresolved point of controversy between the Christian East and its Western counterpart.
Fascinating- many thanks for that! What astonishes me is the downvoting my comment (and Clare’s) clearly received. Neutral perhaps, but a downvote – and no reposte? Perhaps people feel threatened?
Fascinating- many thanks for that! What astonishes me is the downvoting my comment (and Clare’s) clearly received. Neutral perhaps, but a downvote – and no reposte? Perhaps people feel threatened?
That’s a very interesting interpretation, I can relate to that.
The Eastern Christian tradition actually doesn’t have quite the same view on the relationship between divinity and matter as prevailed in the West (even the Catholic version). In the Eastern Christian view, God’s “energies” are fully present in the “matter” of the world, as a kind of cosmic energy flow that permeates all reality and sustains it in a dynamic, living flow of energy. The division between “natural” and “supernatural” gets blurred somewhat in this view, and the connection between everything becomes clearer as well, much more than in the conventional view that ended up prevailing in the West that “creator” and “creature” were distinct in their metaphysical “essence” and therefore matter is, in the end, just created “stuff” — perhaps stuff that may, in the Western view, point one towards the maker of that stuff, or reflect some other broader theme (later secular, artistic, etc., themes), but not something that was, itself. connected to the maker in any ongoing way. The Christian East views the issue very differently, due to the East’s idea of “divine energies”. St. Gregory Palamas was the leading exponent of the view, which developed in responser to to Western Christian scholasticism and its tendencies to separate the divine from the material — and, yes, it did lead to yet another unresolved point of controversy between the Christian East and its Western counterpart.
Thank you for this.
I would go further however – materialism grew out of the enlightenment / protestantism: scientific materialism and the cultural materialism it bore and which now consumes us. Knowing as we do since the early 20th century that energy is matter and vice versa, it is sad that the basis for the thrall in which the pioneers of quantum mechanics held eastern philosophies, where they found an understanding of reality reflecting their own discoveries, has, as yet, failed to take root in the Western consciousness.
When it does, and when the Western world sheds its hubristic idea that the Catholic/Christian church and its interpretation of Jesus’s life and teachings is the only socially acceptable form of spirituality, perhaps we will evolve into post-materialist societies infinitely more loving and connected than at present.
That uplifting of love, that transformation, born of a felt awareness of the (now scientific) knowledge that everything is fundamentally inter-connected, was what Jesus sought for all of us, at an individual and wider societal level. It was as revolutionary then as it is now and it was for that that he was sacrificed.
Does matter matter? The Enlightenment world sprang out of Protestantism — an individualized politics for an individualized faith. It is hardly surprising that today’s Enlightenment descendants separate matter and divinity. Becuase once you accept that separation, matter is just stuff that you can shape however you want.
People think arcane theological debates about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist don’t matter (pun intended). In truth, these theological questions have very far reaching and often unintended effects.
While I agree with the sentiment, MH unfortunately indulges in a fatal and disappointingly superficial (but common) misreading of Nietzsche. it only takes one glance at his aphorism on the death of God to see that Nietzsche is far from “gleeful” about this prospect, but rather terrified by it. Nor does he consider God’s death something that would be “his victory,” as MH suggests, but instead would be accomplished by a will to truth that ushers in an age of nihilism. This is passive nihilism is not something he embraces per se, but something to be reckoned with and overcome…
Agree. I’m of the opinion that Nietzche’s madness (aside from tertiary syphilis) was driven by what he saw as the logical end to his philosophy. He looked into the abyss and couldn’t stand what he saw. For the life of me, I can’t understand why anyone would embrace nihilism, of the “cheerful” variety or any other flavor.
Such an embrace is not a choice in that sense. One can either reconcile themselves to it and create anew, or celebrate it in a frenzy of violence and destruction. But it is not within one’s power to simply be nihilistic or not. Camus’ Sisyphus is worth reading in this regard.
Such an embrace is not a choice in that sense. One can either reconcile themselves to it and create anew, or celebrate it in a frenzy of violence and destruction. But it is not within one’s power to simply be nihilistic or not. Camus’ Sisyphus is worth reading in this regard.
Agree. I’m of the opinion that Nietzche’s madness (aside from tertiary syphilis) was driven by what he saw as the logical end to his philosophy. He looked into the abyss and couldn’t stand what he saw. For the life of me, I can’t understand why anyone would embrace nihilism, of the “cheerful” variety or any other flavor.
While I agree with the sentiment, MH unfortunately indulges in a fatal and disappointingly superficial (but common) misreading of Nietzsche. it only takes one glance at his aphorism on the death of God to see that Nietzsche is far from “gleeful” about this prospect, but rather terrified by it. Nor does he consider God’s death something that would be “his victory,” as MH suggests, but instead would be accomplished by a will to truth that ushers in an age of nihilism. This is passive nihilism is not something he embraces per se, but something to be reckoned with and overcome…
Lovely article.
My only quibble is with this: ‘In the pre-Christian tradition absorbed into that symbolism, though, it was often held to symbolise the four material elements of earth, air, fire, and water.’ I’d like to see some evidence for it. While it allows for an elegant transition into her discussion of materialism, my research has led me to believe that crucifixion had no pre-Christian symbolism apart from the denial of a person’s humanity. It was for people such as Cicero an obscenity (literally and otherwise) that could not be mentioned. Earlier treatments were similar. To find in the cross such symbols would have been impossible.
Yup, beautiful and moving article. I think Mary may have meant the cross in general, not specifcally the crux immissa or crucifix. The examples I half remember about ancient broad sense crosses meaning all 4 elements are a little obscure, but the egyptian ankh cross is an example said to symbolise at least air & water, as well as being associated with life and regeneration.
Yup, beautiful and moving article. I think Mary may have meant the cross in general, not specifcally the crux immissa or crucifix. The examples I half remember about ancient broad sense crosses meaning all 4 elements are a little obscure, but the egyptian ankh cross is an example said to symbolise at least air & water, as well as being associated with life and regeneration.
Lovely article.
My only quibble is with this: ‘In the pre-Christian tradition absorbed into that symbolism, though, it was often held to symbolise the four material elements of earth, air, fire, and water.’ I’d like to see some evidence for it. While it allows for an elegant transition into her discussion of materialism, my research has led me to believe that crucifixion had no pre-Christian symbolism apart from the denial of a person’s humanity. It was for people such as Cicero an obscenity (literally and otherwise) that could not be mentioned. Earlier treatments were similar. To find in the cross such symbols would have been impossible.
My narrative of religious progress is about the need to sacrifice to atone for a fault. Listen. When you enrage the gods with your Sins there is Hell to pay.
First, mankind had to sacrifice a firstborn son. Then God told Abraham that sacrificing a ram would do. Then with Christ, God sacrificed his Son so we didn’t have to sacrifice rams and sons. Do you see the genius of this? Probably not.
But now, with our very advanced society, Stalin and Mao and Hitler determined that the proper way of atonement was to sacrifice other peoples’ sons, about 100 million of them, to be on the safe side. And progressives believe that Christians should now be sacrificed to purify society to atone for the creative sexuality of LGBTs. This is called progress.
I would love to know what Nietzsche thinks of all this.
My narrative of religious progress is about the need to sacrifice to atone for a fault. Listen. When you enrage the gods with your Sins there is Hell to pay.
First, mankind had to sacrifice a firstborn son. Then God told Abraham that sacrificing a ram would do. Then with Christ, God sacrificed his Son so we didn’t have to sacrifice rams and sons. Do you see the genius of this? Probably not.
But now, with our very advanced society, Stalin and Mao and Hitler determined that the proper way of atonement was to sacrifice other peoples’ sons, about 100 million of them, to be on the safe side. And progressives believe that Christians should now be sacrificed to purify society to atone for the creative sexuality of LGBTs. This is called progress.
I would love to know what Nietzsche thinks of all this.
Certainly the media told us that Kate Forbes was finished after she was open about her religious beliefs, and Mary recycles the received wisdom. In fact, faced with a candidate enjoying the full support of both the SNP establishment and the Scottish government (which is an SNP fiefdom), she very nearly won, and would have if the current Police action had been taken a few weeks ago. Funny that…
From what I read many Unionists are rather pleased she didn’t.
From what I read many Unionists are rather pleased she didn’t.
Certainly the media told us that Kate Forbes was finished after she was open about her religious beliefs, and Mary recycles the received wisdom. In fact, faced with a candidate enjoying the full support of both the SNP establishment and the Scottish government (which is an SNP fiefdom), she very nearly won, and would have if the current Police action had been taken a few weeks ago. Funny that…
What a beautiful and surprising conclusion! Happy Easter to all
What a beautiful and surprising conclusion! Happy Easter to all
Good and interesting article. A few points:
Nietzsche went completely mad ..
Orthodox religion may be on its “knees” in the “west” but its growing elsewhere.
Science did not supersede religion it just showed that a particular view of how the world developed taken by religion didn’t fit with science as it developed. Most of the founders of modern science were believers in a god of some kind.
At the end of the day it comes down to
Why is grass green?
A green pigment called chlorophyll along with wavelengths and cellular components called organelles and photosynthesis, which plants use to make food.
God made it that way.
Obviously if you don’t believe in a god you don’t accept the second point but the first point does not invalidate the second. You either believe it or you don’t. Either god is a necessary being or not – Copleston vs Russell.
Oh dear.
Nice summation!
Oh dear.
Nice summation!
Good and interesting article. A few points:
Nietzsche went completely mad ..
Orthodox religion may be on its “knees” in the “west” but its growing elsewhere.
Science did not supersede religion it just showed that a particular view of how the world developed taken by religion didn’t fit with science as it developed. Most of the founders of modern science were believers in a god of some kind.
At the end of the day it comes down to
Why is grass green?
A green pigment called chlorophyll along with wavelengths and cellular components called organelles and photosynthesis, which plants use to make food.
God made it that way.
Obviously if you don’t believe in a god you don’t accept the second point but the first point does not invalidate the second. You either believe it or you don’t. Either god is a necessary being or not – Copleston vs Russell.
Thank you, Mary Harrington.
Thank you, Mary Harrington.
Thank you for putting into a few well chosen words the central loss of our time. Many people will need to reflect someday on those other words “forgive them for they know not what they do.” The terrible acts performed in the name of historically deformed Christianity are as nothing to the still worse ones unrestrained by it, as the 20 th century hinted and our own proves daily.
I did not expect that the most meaningful thing I would read on Good Friday other than the gospels would be found on Unherd. Thank you again and have a blessed Easter. .
Thank you for putting into a few well chosen words the central loss of our time. Many people will need to reflect someday on those other words “forgive them for they know not what they do.” The terrible acts performed in the name of historically deformed Christianity are as nothing to the still worse ones unrestrained by it, as the 20 th century hinted and our own proves daily.
I did not expect that the most meaningful thing I would read on Good Friday other than the gospels would be found on Unherd. Thank you again and have a blessed Easter. .
“we may now attempt to create our own values and, if we can, to live by them.”
And there in lies the problem. What has been created is a value vacuum. The valueless postmodernism that underlies the woke nonsense is so full of self contradictions nobody knows what they are allowed to believe from one day to the next.
We really have thrown the baby out with the bath water by turning our backs on religion (the great religions are all based on similar values). Now we bleat endlessly about rights of some minority or other with no value system against which to judge our words and deeds.
Personally I rejected the mumbo jumbo in Christianity a long time ago, but I never rejected the underlying human values and, once the mumbo jumbo is removed, the basic common sense it espouses on the best way humans should relate to each other.
Exactly.So if you take away all “the Christian mumbo jumbo and just live the basic common sense it espouses on the best way humans should relate to each other” doesn’t that make one a humanitarian?
The new woke religion, because it is a matter of faith not rationality, is completely anti-science. It insists that a man can get preganant. It insists that if you don’t like the genetic sex you’re born with, you can change it through strength of will alone, as long as society supports you.
It insists that math, science and engineering are racist. It insists that we don’t need universities to teach anything but DEI and Critical Racist Theory. This religion wants you to believe that modern engineering miracles can be built by the trans with DEI alone, no education required.
The new woke religion insists that the color of your skin determines everything. The content of your character is immaterial.
The new woke religion insists that net zero, unlike any normal large engineering project, needs no demonstration project, not even a small scale net zero zone, like a net zero island with no energy imports. It will work as a matter of faith. If it doesn’t, and people freeze to death, they just didn’t believe hard enough.
Agreed. There may be woke trans fairies at the bottom of our garden (presumably all reading “The Guardian”), but I dare not look!
Agreed. There may be woke trans fairies at the bottom of our garden (presumably all reading “The Guardian”), but I dare not look!
What’s the mumbo jumbo and what’s the common sense and if it’s common sense isn’t it common and not limited to Christianity?
Exactly.So if you take away all “the Christian mumbo jumbo and just live the basic common sense it espouses on the best way humans should relate to each other” doesn’t that make one a humanitarian?
The new woke religion, because it is a matter of faith not rationality, is completely anti-science. It insists that a man can get preganant. It insists that if you don’t like the genetic sex you’re born with, you can change it through strength of will alone, as long as society supports you.
It insists that math, science and engineering are racist. It insists that we don’t need universities to teach anything but DEI and Critical Racist Theory. This religion wants you to believe that modern engineering miracles can be built by the trans with DEI alone, no education required.
The new woke religion insists that the color of your skin determines everything. The content of your character is immaterial.
The new woke religion insists that net zero, unlike any normal large engineering project, needs no demonstration project, not even a small scale net zero zone, like a net zero island with no energy imports. It will work as a matter of faith. If it doesn’t, and people freeze to death, they just didn’t believe hard enough.
What’s the mumbo jumbo and what’s the common sense and if it’s common sense isn’t it common and not limited to Christianity?
“we may now attempt to create our own values and, if we can, to live by them.”
And there in lies the problem. What has been created is a value vacuum. The valueless postmodernism that underlies the woke nonsense is so full of self contradictions nobody knows what they are allowed to believe from one day to the next.
We really have thrown the baby out with the bath water by turning our backs on religion (the great religions are all based on similar values). Now we bleat endlessly about rights of some minority or other with no value system against which to judge our words and deeds.
Personally I rejected the mumbo jumbo in Christianity a long time ago, but I never rejected the underlying human values and, once the mumbo jumbo is removed, the basic common sense it espouses on the best way humans should relate to each other.
Let me add my appreciation, Mary. And my confidence that the forward look you offer at the end of your essay points to nothing less than the light the darkness has not and cannot overcome. You may feel alone in an aging crowd in your little Norman church — but you testify to being surrounded by a great crowd of faithful witnesses. I shall count you and your daughter as among the faces surrounding us on icons in our Orthodox parish on Pascha (the week after your western Easter), a congregation slowly but steadily filling up with with young people and families and their newborns who have clearly seen the emptiness and danger of a rudderless vessel in hostile and treacherous waters of the post-Christian world. We, however, have hope not naive optimism. Thanks for adding your clear and faithful voice to the song.
Excellent post. ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ!
Excellent post. ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΑΝΕΣΤΗ!
Let me add my appreciation, Mary. And my confidence that the forward look you offer at the end of your essay points to nothing less than the light the darkness has not and cannot overcome. You may feel alone in an aging crowd in your little Norman church — but you testify to being surrounded by a great crowd of faithful witnesses. I shall count you and your daughter as among the faces surrounding us on icons in our Orthodox parish on Pascha (the week after your western Easter), a congregation slowly but steadily filling up with with young people and families and their newborns who have clearly seen the emptiness and danger of a rudderless vessel in hostile and treacherous waters of the post-Christian world. We, however, have hope not naive optimism. Thanks for adding your clear and faithful voice to the song.
Another beautiful and thoughtful essay from Mrs. Harrington. But…
While Christianity may be in decline in the West, she should bear in mind that it is exploding in many parts of the world. Per the Economist, there are more Christians in China than in Germany or France, and the number there is growing exponentially.
Similarly, the trope that science killed off Christian faith in the West is, in my respectful opinion, wildly over-emphasized in trying to understand the reason for Christianity’s decline. Does under-appreciation of science in China account for its growth there and decline in Europe? That doesn’t make sense… there are many other factors at work.
Perhaps the decline has to do with the fact that all religion requires a belief in god, and god seems to forsake so many people so much of the time. It requires a huge amount of faith and denial of logic to continue believing when there is so much suffering in life.Rationalizing only goes so far.
You think suffering disproves God? On the contrary, suffering necessitates God. Life is full of suffering, regardless. The question is whether you believe it is possible that suffering can have meaning, significance and purpose. And if so, what is the source of meaning, significance and purpose?
One’s life can have meaning and purpose without a belief in the supernatural.
You didn’t answer my question, but you are under no obligation to! I personally don’t think self-ascriptions of meaning, significance and purpose are sufficient to answer the question. If we asked a jihadist if his life had meaning, he would answer yes, I suppose – but would you agree with him? “Meaning” in this context is something different from a feeling of life satisfaction.
You didn’t answer my question, but you are under no obligation to! I personally don’t think self-ascriptions of meaning, significance and purpose are sufficient to answer the question. If we asked a jihadist if his life had meaning, he would answer yes, I suppose – but would you agree with him? “Meaning” in this context is something different from a feeling of life satisfaction.
One’s life can have meaning and purpose without a belief in the supernatural.
You think suffering disproves God? On the contrary, suffering necessitates God. Life is full of suffering, regardless. The question is whether you believe it is possible that suffering can have meaning, significance and purpose. And if so, what is the source of meaning, significance and purpose?
Perhaps the decline has to do with the fact that all religion requires a belief in god, and god seems to forsake so many people so much of the time. It requires a huge amount of faith and denial of logic to continue believing when there is so much suffering in life.Rationalizing only goes so far.
Another beautiful and thoughtful essay from Mrs. Harrington. But…
While Christianity may be in decline in the West, she should bear in mind that it is exploding in many parts of the world. Per the Economist, there are more Christians in China than in Germany or France, and the number there is growing exponentially.
Similarly, the trope that science killed off Christian faith in the West is, in my respectful opinion, wildly over-emphasized in trying to understand the reason for Christianity’s decline. Does under-appreciation of science in China account for its growth there and decline in Europe? That doesn’t make sense… there are many other factors at work.
Nietzsche, like Freud and Marx, was a thinker of his time. I don’t consider the author is correct to state that he “gleefully embraced nihilism” although it’s possibly a commonly-held view (amongst those who think about Nietzsche at all). This happens due to both the subsequent history of the 20th century and the post world war(s) conception of nihilism which then becomes backdated to his writings.
More importantly though, Mary Harrington’s essential argument is valid. I can fully appreciate the loss which she feels, sat with her young daughter in the ancient church. I love ancient churches, redolent of a stage in our history that will remain forever important. But history moves on. The loss which is felt doesn’t have to be deemed as a failure, but could – and i’d maintain should – be viewed as a backwards glance prior to renewal.
I don’t subscribe to either ideology of gender transition or transhumanism, but understand why they’ve become endowed with cultural heft. My main concern is for us to finally begin to accept our humanity, and to begin to be able to forgive ourselves for the fact that our biological origins often clash with our desire for spiritual and cultural elevation. Much of that can be seen within Christian teaching, but becomes sullied by an association with belief in a deity, which leads to schism and conflict. This article points towards that association, without quite finding the precise direction.
Schism and conflict will exist so long as humans do, whether they believe in one god, or many, or none. An atheist utopia without conflict and war is just as mythical as any other kind. That won’t stop people from trying of course. History moves on, but mankind remains much the same.
True.
True.
Fair enough. To be frank, though, I am terrified of those who have become adepts in the liturgy of “self forgiveness”! Unless by that you mean no more than to have a sense of humor.
Schism and conflict will exist so long as humans do, whether they believe in one god, or many, or none. An atheist utopia without conflict and war is just as mythical as any other kind. That won’t stop people from trying of course. History moves on, but mankind remains much the same.
Fair enough. To be frank, though, I am terrified of those who have become adepts in the liturgy of “self forgiveness”! Unless by that you mean no more than to have a sense of humor.
Nietzsche, like Freud and Marx, was a thinker of his time. I don’t consider the author is correct to state that he “gleefully embraced nihilism” although it’s possibly a commonly-held view (amongst those who think about Nietzsche at all). This happens due to both the subsequent history of the 20th century and the post world war(s) conception of nihilism which then becomes backdated to his writings.
More importantly though, Mary Harrington’s essential argument is valid. I can fully appreciate the loss which she feels, sat with her young daughter in the ancient church. I love ancient churches, redolent of a stage in our history that will remain forever important. But history moves on. The loss which is felt doesn’t have to be deemed as a failure, but could – and i’d maintain should – be viewed as a backwards glance prior to renewal.
I don’t subscribe to either ideology of gender transition or transhumanism, but understand why they’ve become endowed with cultural heft. My main concern is for us to finally begin to accept our humanity, and to begin to be able to forgive ourselves for the fact that our biological origins often clash with our desire for spiritual and cultural elevation. Much of that can be seen within Christian teaching, but becomes sullied by an association with belief in a deity, which leads to schism and conflict. This article points towards that association, without quite finding the precise direction.
This brought me to tears, thank you, Mary.
I too cried laughing at such a public display of false piety.
Where did you obtain this power to peer into other’s souls? And merely by scanning a text, no less! Will you teach it for a fee, like the ancient sophists? What’s the going rate?
Where did you obtain this power to peer into other’s souls? And merely by scanning a text, no less! Will you teach it for a fee, like the ancient sophists? What’s the going rate?
I too cried laughing at such a public display of false piety.
This brought me to tears, thank you, Mary.
Day after day, in style and substance, Mary Harrington’s essays leave all of her contemporaries in the dust.
Day after day, in style and substance, Mary Harrington’s essays leave all of her contemporaries in the dust.
Christianity isn’t dying, or even ailing. That’s just the C of E, which was always a state church. Drop by any orthodox Catholic Parish or any Latin Mass (currently ousted to the parish garage or shed—but no less joyful for it) and you’ll find out where all the young people are. Young people want to have a lot asked of them. Young people want to be saints. The Catholic Church still expects them to be.
Christianity isn’t dying, or even ailing. That’s just the C of E, which was always a state church. Drop by any orthodox Catholic Parish or any Latin Mass (currently ousted to the parish garage or shed—but no less joyful for it) and you’ll find out where all the young people are. Young people want to have a lot asked of them. Young people want to be saints. The Catholic Church still expects them to be.
There is only one man in the history of the world who died a criminal death, then lived to tell about. I’m going with him. How about you?
There is only one man in the history of the world who died a criminal death, then lived to tell about. I’m going with him. How about you?
The situation described by Mary Harrington was foreseen by John Henry Newman’s 1873 sermon “The Infidelity of the Future”. It may well get worse before it gets better, so this article is a timely wake-up call. Many thanks and happy Easter.
The situation described by Mary Harrington was foreseen by John Henry Newman’s 1873 sermon “The Infidelity of the Future”. It may well get worse before it gets better, so this article is a timely wake-up call. Many thanks and happy Easter.
You probably would not mourn Dolly Pentreath and the passing of the Cornish language, if 600 million people in Africa spoke it, another 400 million in Latin America, 150 million in China, or hundreds of thousands of new Cornish-speakers in London. That’s the situation with Christianity. I am sorry Mary’s old church has a smattering of old people for Easter. Recently, after the service in my small church in America, I had lunch with a visiting couple from Nigeria. They loved the “small church” experience. I asked them how many people attended their church in Lagos on a Sunday morning. About 50,000. The wife took out her phone and showed me a picture of the church. It seated about 20,000 worshippers and they held four services each Sunday. Unherd’s Giles Fraser talks about London now being the most religious city in the U.K. It’s all those Africans moving back, speaking a sort of religious Cornish to the perplexed white intellectuals of Europe. The report of Christianity’s death is probably a bit premature.
Africans are enlivening English Catholic parishes. In my brother’s small church near Bournemouth, the Exsultet, the 7 minute chant solo Easter Proclamation, was sung in Ibo.
Africans are enlivening English Catholic parishes. In my brother’s small church near Bournemouth, the Exsultet, the 7 minute chant solo Easter Proclamation, was sung in Ibo.
You probably would not mourn Dolly Pentreath and the passing of the Cornish language, if 600 million people in Africa spoke it, another 400 million in Latin America, 150 million in China, or hundreds of thousands of new Cornish-speakers in London. That’s the situation with Christianity. I am sorry Mary’s old church has a smattering of old people for Easter. Recently, after the service in my small church in America, I had lunch with a visiting couple from Nigeria. They loved the “small church” experience. I asked them how many people attended their church in Lagos on a Sunday morning. About 50,000. The wife took out her phone and showed me a picture of the church. It seated about 20,000 worshippers and they held four services each Sunday. Unherd’s Giles Fraser talks about London now being the most religious city in the U.K. It’s all those Africans moving back, speaking a sort of religious Cornish to the perplexed white intellectuals of Europe. The report of Christianity’s death is probably a bit premature.
As a deist, I accept that my beliefs do not provide for the empathetic suffering God that Harrington speaks about. But I also reject the bleak emptiness of atheism. For me the created universe is a place where, as Samuel Beckett would say, things are taking their course, but we know not where.
I reject that not believing in god is bleak. Perhaps it is for you, Richard but not for all of us.
I reject that not believing in god is bleak. Perhaps it is for you, Richard but not for all of us.
As a deist, I accept that my beliefs do not provide for the empathetic suffering God that Harrington speaks about. But I also reject the bleak emptiness of atheism. For me the created universe is a place where, as Samuel Beckett would say, things are taking their course, but we know not where.
Interesting that although Kate Forbes lost she did achieve 48% of the vote. Not everyone in Scotland wants to ditch the truth and bow the knee to wokism.
Interesting that although Kate Forbes lost she did achieve 48% of the vote. Not everyone in Scotland wants to ditch the truth and bow the knee to wokism.
Thank you for proclaiming the Resurrection! It’s Friday – but Sunday’s coming!* – only just read below the fold and saw that lancelotlamar1 has got there first – glorious!
Thank you for proclaiming the Resurrection! It’s Friday – but Sunday’s coming!* – only just read below the fold and saw that lancelotlamar1 has got there first – glorious!
Fab article. Mary just gets cleverer and cleverer like some primordial monster – just a very good one. Nice conclusion but hope is there in the abstract rather than the particular. The world is full of places that were once more Christian, from Asia Minor to Japan. If you’re Catholic you’re more aware of a whole culture being supplanted by state power, propaganda and fashion.
Fab article. Mary just gets cleverer and cleverer like some primordial monster – just a very good one. Nice conclusion but hope is there in the abstract rather than the particular. The world is full of places that were once more Christian, from Asia Minor to Japan. If you’re Catholic you’re more aware of a whole culture being supplanted by state power, propaganda and fashion.
I like this essay. The idea of moderns worshipping the forsaken three hours is novel and thought provoking. But I think you have misread Nietzche on nihilism. He consistently abhorred nihilism and heaped all kinds of abuse on nihilists. He was also quite apprehensive about the death of God, which he hardly “effected” but was rather an observation. I believe at some point he referred to it as a crime.
I like this essay. The idea of moderns worshipping the forsaken three hours is novel and thought provoking. But I think you have misread Nietzche on nihilism. He consistently abhorred nihilism and heaped all kinds of abuse on nihilists. He was also quite apprehensive about the death of God, which he hardly “effected” but was rather an observation. I believe at some point he referred to it as a crime.
If there ever is a “Second Religiousness” in Oswald Spengler’s phrase, it will probably be an Africanized Christianity.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/11/10/the-myth-of-progressive-london/
https://unherd.com/2022/04/the-future-of-anglicanism-is-african/
If there ever is a “Second Religiousness” in Oswald Spengler’s phrase, it will probably be an Africanized Christianity.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/11/10/the-myth-of-progressive-london/
https://unherd.com/2022/04/the-future-of-anglicanism-is-african/
Thoughtful article. Sadly much of what you say may be correct, but we should still have hope. On this, of all days, thank you and may you enjoy a blessed Easter.
Thoughtful article. Sadly much of what you say may be correct, but we should still have hope. On this, of all days, thank you and may you enjoy a blessed Easter.
Another excellent essay thanks Mary – ‘we’ may be following Nietzsche’s “gleeful embrace of nihilism” fully in that he ‘let go’ of sanity and descended into madness. As a sometime Christian and theological student , the discussion regarding the veracity of the Jesus myth/reality quite quickly becomes a discussion of ‘inspiration’ per se. IE how does the god thing interface with the human or ‘created’ thing – which also quite quickly clarifies into the practiced habit of shutting up the ego and ‘listening’. This practice fairly quickly reveals much supranatural communication/guidance from a myriad of sources including parts of the bible, wise writers and philosophers and that small quiet internal voice that is always there should we choose to limit the raucous noise of the humananimal-ego. The spiritual experience then becomes 24/7 lived experience thru the natural activities and chosen habits and investigations and choices of daily life. Mr N et al were overwhelmed by the brilliance of their egos and could not see the woods for the trees and, to mix metaphors, threw the baby out with the bathwater – leaving less brilliant souls to flounder on their wake. Accessing the spiritual realm takes work , investigation and self discipline but the GOOD NEWS is that it is available to all and is not reliant on creeds or buildings. SHUT UP AND LISTEN. ‘Groundedness’ does not come from outside….
Another excellent essay thanks Mary – ‘we’ may be following Nietzsche’s “gleeful embrace of nihilism” fully in that he ‘let go’ of sanity and descended into madness. As a sometime Christian and theological student , the discussion regarding the veracity of the Jesus myth/reality quite quickly becomes a discussion of ‘inspiration’ per se. IE how does the god thing interface with the human or ‘created’ thing – which also quite quickly clarifies into the practiced habit of shutting up the ego and ‘listening’. This practice fairly quickly reveals much supranatural communication/guidance from a myriad of sources including parts of the bible, wise writers and philosophers and that small quiet internal voice that is always there should we choose to limit the raucous noise of the humananimal-ego. The spiritual experience then becomes 24/7 lived experience thru the natural activities and chosen habits and investigations and choices of daily life. Mr N et al were overwhelmed by the brilliance of their egos and could not see the woods for the trees and, to mix metaphors, threw the baby out with the bathwater – leaving less brilliant souls to flounder on their wake. Accessing the spiritual realm takes work , investigation and self discipline but the GOOD NEWS is that it is available to all and is not reliant on creeds or buildings. SHUT UP AND LISTEN. ‘Groundedness’ does not come from outside….
Once each year in a town called Butterworth in Malaysia (near where I live), over 100,000 Catholics turn up at St. Anne’s church to celebrate the Stations of the Cross. It happened recently. Pilgrims come from all over SE Asia. This week in Penang (where I live), every day the Catholic Churches have been jammed with people celebrating Holy Week. In this as with the CofE troubles I have been reading about, it occurs to me that it is with the West maybe virtually alone that the issues that Mary is discussing are actually taking place. Elsewhere the doctrine is prospering very nicely. It occurs to me that the secularisation we are witnessing is very much a failing of the West as opposed to the rest of the world. Personally, I am no longer the church goer that I was and do regret my gradual lack of spirituality. I suspect this is very much what is happening. Thanks for the article Mary.
Once each year in a town called Butterworth in Malaysia (near where I live), over 100,000 Catholics turn up at St. Anne’s church to celebrate the Stations of the Cross. It happened recently. Pilgrims come from all over SE Asia. This week in Penang (where I live), every day the Catholic Churches have been jammed with people celebrating Holy Week. In this as with the CofE troubles I have been reading about, it occurs to me that it is with the West maybe virtually alone that the issues that Mary is discussing are actually taking place. Elsewhere the doctrine is prospering very nicely. It occurs to me that the secularisation we are witnessing is very much a failing of the West as opposed to the rest of the world. Personally, I am no longer the church goer that I was and do regret my gradual lack of spirituality. I suspect this is very much what is happening. Thanks for the article Mary.
A family member, aged about seven, was reading Aesop’s Fables. His comment was, “the ‘moral‘ lines at the bottom were quite good, but the stories were rubbish because birds and animals can’t talk to each other.” Yes, indeed, but ……
You seven year old has never heard birds communicating – even I, a non-bird human, can get the gist of some of their messages to one another.
Right on, Janet.
Right on, Janet.
You seven year old has never heard birds communicating – even I, a non-bird human, can get the gist of some of their messages to one another.
A family member, aged about seven, was reading Aesop’s Fables. His comment was, “the ‘moral‘ lines at the bottom were quite good, but the stories were rubbish because birds and animals can’t talk to each other.” Yes, indeed, but ……
“Science sans conscience n’est que ruine de l’âme.*
“Science sans conscience n’est que ruine de l’âme.*
Bravo – article of the week for me.
Bravo – article of the week for me.
A perfect Good Friday Meditation. Thank You.
A perfect Good Friday Meditation. Thank You.
It was Jesus the man that cried out in despair but it was the divine Jesus who ‘corrected’ himself saying “into thy hands I commend my spirit”.. Similarly, it was Jesus the man who begged for “this cup to paas from me” but Jesus the divine who added “…not my will but thine”.
It is important to ‘divorce’ Christianity from religions (RC, CoE et al) which are really man-made sects designed to control and terrify the fairhful; and it is remarkable is it not that the new secular religion of scientism-materialism seeks to do the same.
Buddhism survived because it eschewed religiosity whereas Christianity did not.. but it’s not 100% dead and may yet rise from the ashes. What is abundantly clear is that its replacement is utterly useless by comparison.. the baby was indeed thrown out with the bathwater and now we are filthy, childless, aimless and devoid of meaning. I say ‘we’ but I mean you guys!
You can’t divorce Christ from the church He founded. If you do, you get … the modern West.
And the notion that ‘Buddhism eschewed religiosity’ would be news to many people in SE Asia, for whom it became a state religion every bit as hierarchical and organised as the Church in Europe.
Dear god, really Liam?!! How unchristian of you, but one has heard this kind verbal abuse before from believers.
You can’t divorce Christ from the church He founded. If you do, you get … the modern West.
And the notion that ‘Buddhism eschewed religiosity’ would be news to many people in SE Asia, for whom it became a state religion every bit as hierarchical and organised as the Church in Europe.
Dear god, really Liam?!! How unchristian of you, but one has heard this kind verbal abuse before from believers.
It was Jesus the man that cried out in despair but it was the divine Jesus who ‘corrected’ himself saying “into thy hands I commend my spirit”.. Similarly, it was Jesus the man who begged for “this cup to paas from me” but Jesus the divine who added “…not my will but thine”.
It is important to ‘divorce’ Christianity from religions (RC, CoE et al) which are really man-made sects designed to control and terrify the fairhful; and it is remarkable is it not that the new secular religion of scientism-materialism seeks to do the same.
Buddhism survived because it eschewed religiosity whereas Christianity did not.. but it’s not 100% dead and may yet rise from the ashes. What is abundantly clear is that its replacement is utterly useless by comparison.. the baby was indeed thrown out with the bathwater and now we are filthy, childless, aimless and devoid of meaning. I say ‘we’ but I mean you guys!
Great article, thanks Mary
Great article, thanks Mary
Wonderful article. Many Thanks for sharing this post
Wonderful article. Many Thanks for sharing this post
First, great article, thank you. But is remarkable for what it omits as much as for what it includes : to take the SNP case as an example, Forbes was castigated for admitting her religious principles, but Yousaf was rewarded for covering up his. Fundamental to the heart of this articles is the fact that while christians are tearing themselves and each other apart, subscribers to much less savoury creeds are exploiting the vacuum.
First, great article, thank you. But is remarkable for what it omits as much as for what it includes : to take the SNP case as an example, Forbes was castigated for admitting her religious principles, but Yousaf was rewarded for covering up his. Fundamental to the heart of this articles is the fact that while christians are tearing themselves and each other apart, subscribers to much less savoury creeds are exploiting the vacuum.
Beautiful
Beautiful
I agree with the general tone of this article, however:
> we’re left only with the four elements of matter: the domain of the rational, the tangible, and the measurable
> and to believe that Word and Flesh are utterly separate, and there is no Word save the one we ourselves choose.
Pardon? The central doctrine of the new religion is Trans-substantiation. I declare myself to be a woman and I AM a woman. Rational, tangible and measurable have exactly nothing in common with this.
And note that Word and Flesh are indeed One — to merely say: ‘I am a woman’ is to accomplish it. Flesh is not separate so much as irrelevant or the hand-maiden of the Word — all that’s left of Flesh is whatever remains of it after drugs, hormones and surgery have corrected its sin of having captured a soul of the wrong gender.
I agree with the general tone of this article, however:
> we’re left only with the four elements of matter: the domain of the rational, the tangible, and the measurable
> and to believe that Word and Flesh are utterly separate, and there is no Word save the one we ourselves choose.
Pardon? The central doctrine of the new religion is Trans-substantiation. I declare myself to be a woman and I AM a woman. Rational, tangible and measurable have exactly nothing in common with this.
And note that Word and Flesh are indeed One — to merely say: ‘I am a woman’ is to accomplish it. Flesh is not separate so much as irrelevant or the hand-maiden of the Word — all that’s left of Flesh is whatever remains of it after drugs, hormones and surgery have corrected its sin of having captured a soul of the wrong gender.
It has always been about faith and having the courage to live it. As humans, we falter but we still have a choice, if we have the courage. We sill see.
It has always been about faith and having the courage to live it. As humans, we falter but we still have a choice, if we have the courage. We sill see.
Globally there are more Christians than ever, over 2 billion. 46% of the UK are also Christian, only 37% non religious according to the ONS. It is far from dead even if we are a more liberal secular culture and sceptical of religious extremes
Globally there are more Christians than ever, over 2 billion. 46% of the UK are also Christian, only 37% non religious according to the ONS. It is far from dead even if we are a more liberal secular culture and sceptical of religious extremes
Feliz pascua judia. Ramadan Mubarak
Feliz pascua judia. Ramadan Mubarak
What a beautiful essay, ignited by such a moment. Wonderful analogy at the core. Interesting to me is Einstein’s belief in God, and his answer to a letter from an Australian atheist seeking his support for atheism, that he was not so brilliant he could discount creation. Though his was not quite the personal God.
Nietzsche was a self-professed nihilist, though perhaps it’s only that no one has codified his humanism in any compelling, universal way. Least of all he, as he descended into madness, another metaphor on Mary’s side.
No problem can be solved at its own level, to paraphrase Einstein, and Nietzsche was one of those who as Einstein lamented, having proven the material existed, “could not bear to hear the music of the spheres.”
What a beautiful essay, ignited by such a moment. Wonderful analogy at the core. Interesting to me is Einstein’s belief in God, and his answer to a letter from an Australian atheist seeking his support for atheism, that he was not so brilliant he could discount creation. Though his was not quite the personal God.
Nietzsche was a self-professed nihilist, though perhaps it’s only that no one has codified his humanism in any compelling, universal way. Least of all he, as he descended into madness, another metaphor on Mary’s side.
No problem can be solved at its own level, to paraphrase Einstein, and Nietzsche was one of those who as Einstein lamented, having proven the material existed, “could not bear to hear the music of the spheres.”
The argument seems to hinge on the existence of ‘telos’, God’s plan or purpose. Yet it has never been clear to me what this is or could be. The Book of Revelations, a highly creative work, sets one out. After a period of turmoil and the collapse of civilisation comes a thousand year stasis in which Jesus, the meek and mild, returns with a sword to vanquish the Beast and false prophet, and rule as King of Kings over the ordinary people, whose everyday lives are unspecified. If one could look into the writer’s mind, he might be thinking that everything will be perfect once we have thrown out the Romans and ‘the synagogue of Satan, those who say they are Jews but are not’ (later it would be the British, French or Americans).
The next part of the plan is harder to follow, unless one takes literally ‘a thousand years in [His] sight is like a day’ to mean that the world should exist for no more than 6000 years, by analogy with the six days of Creation. The created world then ends with a bang, as Satan is briefly released from thousand-year confinement, though the details are irrelevant because the triumph of Good over Evil is a formality, material for a Wagnerian opera.
After that, the souls of the faithful are resurrected to dwell in a new Holy City ‘where there shall be no more night’, so presumably no need to sleep or eat, despite the abundant fruit trees lining the streets beside which flow crystal clear streams. Certainly, ‘there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain’, except for the unbelievers. Apart from God/Jesus’ servants, all are free to devote their time to worship for ever. Imagine the scene. Yet it may be viewed as more thoughtful and in keeping with the Western spirit than the ‘boys graced with eternal youth like sprinkled pearls’ and ‘bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before’ promised to Muslim martyrs.
I labour this because there is no other plan that I am aware of, if one discounts a future world like one of those planets in Star Trek where they all wander around in white robes and no-one does any work. If the plan is simply, as in Lord Sentamu’s vision, that we should all love one another, I see little sign of the monotheistic religions contributing to that either historically or at present.
The argument seems to hinge on the existence of ‘telos’, God’s plan or purpose. Yet it has never been clear to me what this is or could be. The Book of Revelations, a highly creative work, sets one out. After a period of turmoil and the collapse of civilisation comes a thousand year stasis in which Jesus, the meek and mild, returns with a sword to vanquish the Beast and false prophet, and rule as King of Kings over the ordinary people, whose everyday lives are unspecified. If one could look into the writer’s mind, he might be thinking that everything will be perfect once we have thrown out the Romans and ‘the synagogue of Satan, those who say they are Jews but are not’ (later it would be the British, French or Americans).
The next part of the plan is harder to follow, unless one takes literally ‘a thousand years in [His] sight is like a day’ to mean that the world should exist for no more than 6000 years, by analogy with the six days of Creation. The created world then ends with a bang, as Satan is briefly released from thousand-year confinement, though the details are irrelevant because the triumph of Good over Evil is a formality, material for a Wagnerian opera.
After that, the souls of the faithful are resurrected to dwell in a new Holy City ‘where there shall be no more night’, so presumably no need to sleep or eat, despite the abundant fruit trees lining the streets beside which flow crystal clear streams. Certainly, ‘there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain’, except for the unbelievers. Apart from God/Jesus’ servants, all are free to devote their time to worship for ever. Imagine the scene. Yet it may be viewed as more thoughtful and in keeping with the Western spirit than the ‘boys graced with eternal youth like sprinkled pearls’ and ‘bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before’ promised to Muslim martyrs.
I labour this because there is no other plan that I am aware of, if one discounts a future world like one of those planets in Star Trek where they all wander around in white robes and no-one does any work. If the plan is simply, as in Lord Sentamu’s vision, that we should all love one another, I see little sign of the monotheistic religions contributing to that either historically or at present.
This was simple beautiful Mary Harrington.
A very good read.
This is a thoughtful piece but you are mixing up the third day (Easter Sunday) with 3 days. There aren’t 3 days between the cross and the resurrection, there are less than 2.
I believe you are mixing up how we count days with how ancient Jews counted days. It’s a bit like the eternal question when lifting a heavy object… “Lift on the count of three.” “OK, is that 1-2-lift, or is that 1-2-3-lift?”
The Jewish people and the Romans both used inclusive counting; this can be a b*gger when trying to work out dates in the Roman system dating using kalends, pridies and ides. By the way, I don’t know why you are dow- voted just for making an error.
I believe you are mixing up how we count days with how ancient Jews counted days. It’s a bit like the eternal question when lifting a heavy object… “Lift on the count of three.” “OK, is that 1-2-lift, or is that 1-2-3-lift?”
The Jewish people and the Romans both used inclusive counting; this can be a b*gger when trying to work out dates in the Roman system dating using kalends, pridies and ides. By the way, I don’t know why you are dow- voted just for making an error.
This is a thoughtful piece but you are mixing up the third day (Easter Sunday) with 3 days. There aren’t 3 days between the cross and the resurrection, there are less than 2.
I don’t think this is a too unfamiliar reading.
I don’t think this is a too unfamiliar reading.
‘Ushered in an age of persecution’. ? I think that Jan Hus might contest that assertion. Three popes, all with their own armies, fighting over the position, and the power it would give them, but agreed on one thing, if nothing else. An unassuming, powerless young man, who had the courage to point out the utter corruption of their religion, must be destroyed, and every trace of him wiped out. Some moral authority you’ve got there.
‘Ushered in an age of persecution’. ? I think that Jan Hus might contest that assertion. Three popes, all with their own armies, fighting over the position, and the power it would give them, but agreed on one thing, if nothing else. An unassuming, powerless young man, who had the courage to point out the utter corruption of their religion, must be destroyed, and every trace of him wiped out. Some moral authority you’ve got there.
If you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe, however, if it’s a comfort then whatever gets you through the night.
If you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe, however, if it’s a comfort then whatever gets you through the night.
This Easter weekend brings with it violence in the Middle East between the three big religions. Business as usual. All over the world Catholic priests molest thousands of children. In Afghanistan women’s lives are misery because of religious belief. Then there is the fight in the US to try to protect a woman’s right to abortion. Not content with doing their best to take away access to abortion,the god people are now relentlessly going after the safe abortion pill. I feel enraged. It’s hard for me not to feel contempt for those who use god to persecute and control others.
This Easter weekend brings with it violence in the Middle East between the three big religions. Business as usual. All over the world Catholic priests molest thousands of children. In Afghanistan women’s lives are misery because of religious belief. Then there is the fight in the US to try to protect a woman’s right to abortion. Not content with doing their best to take away access to abortion,the god people are now relentlessly going after the safe abortion pill. I feel enraged. It’s hard for me not to feel contempt for those who use god to persecute and control others.
In considering how to fill the ‘space left by the murder of God’, one should remember that God was a human invention derived from a certain hierarchical model of human society. The space was filled with human, not somehow ‘received’, morals anchored on a concept that, aside from its supposed given laws, just served as a reminder to look over your shoulder. To have maintained for two millennia the myth of God, and failed to fill the space left not by its murder but by its fading visage, is not something to be proud of. However, there need not be cause for concern. The godless horrors of the 20th century may have been on a scale not seen before, given the volume and mobility of humanity and its novel technologies, but at an individual level were no worse than in the centuries when God supposedly stood in judgment over them.
In considering how to fill the ‘space left by the murder of God’, one should remember that God was a human invention derived from a certain hierarchical model of human society. The space was filled with human, not somehow ‘received’, morals anchored on a concept that, aside from its supposed given laws, just served as a reminder to look over your shoulder. To have maintained for two millennia the myth of God, and failed to fill the space left not by its murder but by its fading visage, is not something to be proud of. However, there need not be cause for concern. The godless horrors of the 20th century may have been on a scale not seen before, given the volume and mobility of humanity and its novel technologies, but at an individual level were no worse than in the centuries when God supposedly stood in judgment over them.
I never cease to be amazed, and of course impressed, by the elegant and eloquent verbal and logical gymnastics, the circumlocutions, non-sequiturs, false equivalences, mythology, you name it, it’s there, used by those desperate to believe. And all the time, refusing to acknowledge, let alone face up to, the implications of their professed beliefs. Christianity isn’t ‘dying on the cross of matter’, it’s withering in the face of knowledge, intelligence, reason, and the acceptance of doubt.
“knowledge, intelligence, reason, and the acceptance of doubt”
I think these qualities are rapidly diminishing, at least in the west.
“knowledge, intelligence, reason, and the acceptance of doubt”
I think these qualities are rapidly diminishing, at least in the west.
I never cease to be amazed, and of course impressed, by the elegant and eloquent verbal and logical gymnastics, the circumlocutions, non-sequiturs, false equivalences, mythology, you name it, it’s there, used by those desperate to believe. And all the time, refusing to acknowledge, let alone face up to, the implications of their professed beliefs. Christianity isn’t ‘dying on the cross of matter’, it’s withering in the face of knowledge, intelligence, reason, and the acceptance of doubt.
The gulf between the internal perspective of this article, and the reality of the rest of the world, reeks of privilege. I almost suspect the author of deliberate, dramatic irony. Christianity has lost some of the aggressive dominance that it wielded in these islands (and most of Europe) from before the Middle Ages to the last part of the last century. But that loss of relative dominance does not turn the Christian community into a ‘persecuted’ minority – any more than the introduction of ‘diversity policies’ transforms white male business men, lawyers, medics, or politicians into oppressed underdogs. The very rhythm of this country – its national holidays, its language, its customs, much of its law – reflects the cultural norms of the New Testament. To take a small example of the article’s perfect lack of insight, its author has very clearly never (even) had the experience, every year, of being an English Jew, who is routinely assumed by all her colleagues and non-familial British friends, to celebrate Christmas. For the purpose of this comment, I take no position on whether Christianity has been a force for good or bad in the world. My point is that the misuse of the concepts ‘privilege’ and ‘persecution’ in just the title of this article, is profoundly wrong: it is entirely detached from the experiences of genuinely oppressed groups. The article represents skilled writing, but breathtakingly bad journalism.
Yes!!!
You write,
I think it may be you who demonstrates a lack of insight, and in a way you may have proved Mary Harrington’s point. You are routinely assuming that all your colleagues and non-familial British friends “celebrate Christmas” as a religious holiday, rather than as just a seasonal period of gift-giving, over-eating, egg nog-drinking, and sometimes forced bonhomie. If all of your colleagues and friends actually observed Christmas as a religious holiday, Mary Harrington and her daughter would probably have had much more company in that old Norman church.
Yes!!!
You write,
I think it may be you who demonstrates a lack of insight, and in a way you may have proved Mary Harrington’s point. You are routinely assuming that all your colleagues and non-familial British friends “celebrate Christmas” as a religious holiday, rather than as just a seasonal period of gift-giving, over-eating, egg nog-drinking, and sometimes forced bonhomie. If all of your colleagues and friends actually observed Christmas as a religious holiday, Mary Harrington and her daughter would probably have had much more company in that old Norman church.
The gulf between the internal perspective of this article, and the reality of the rest of the world, reeks of privilege. I almost suspect the author of deliberate, dramatic irony. Christianity has lost some of the aggressive dominance that it wielded in these islands (and most of Europe) from before the Middle Ages to the last part of the last century. But that loss of relative dominance does not turn the Christian community into a ‘persecuted’ minority – any more than the introduction of ‘diversity policies’ transforms white male business men, lawyers, medics, or politicians into oppressed underdogs. The very rhythm of this country – its national holidays, its language, its customs, much of its law – reflects the cultural norms of the New Testament. To take a small example of the article’s perfect lack of insight, its author has very clearly never (even) had the experience, every year, of being an English Jew, who is routinely assumed by all her colleagues and non-familial British friends, to celebrate Christmas. For the purpose of this comment, I take no position on whether Christianity has been a force for good or bad in the world. My point is that the misuse of the concepts ‘privilege’ and ‘persecution’ in just the title of this article, is profoundly wrong: it is entirely detached from the experiences of genuinely oppressed groups. The article represents skilled writing, but breathtakingly bad journalism.
If you make up nonsensical stories and then bang on about them in an emotionally incontinent and some might argue parodic attempt at theology, don’t be surprised when those more enlightened than you realise you have been sold a pup and have nothing of value to offer.
If you make up nonsensical stories and then bang on about them in an emotionally incontinent and some might argue parodic attempt at theology, don’t be surprised when those more enlightened than you realise you have been sold a pup and have nothing of value to offer.
Nonsense. All we non-believers ask is that you leave us alone. Believe what you will, behave as you like. Don’t insist on imposing your beliefs and behavioral demands on the rest of us.
I suggest you go looking for a deserted island to go to. Society always imposes its belief systems and behavioral demands.
Religions try to convert people non believers don’t.
Isn’t the point of your wearisomely frequent contributions to this discussion precisely to convince believers that they’re wrong? The fact that you’re not succeeding is down to the poor level of argument, but the intent is clear.
Isn’t the point of your wearisomely frequent contributions to this discussion precisely to convince believers that they’re wrong? The fact that you’re not succeeding is down to the poor level of argument, but the intent is clear.
Religions try to convert people non believers don’t.
Humans always force their beliefs onto others. Just look at the Woke religion of now and the oaths of woke piety you have to state just to get a job. The Marxists are very good at taking over institutions from schmoos that lacked any convictions.
Some humans do try to force their convictions on others. Others don’t much like them and will work to undermine them at every turn.
Some humans do try to force their convictions on others. Others don’t much like them and will work to undermine them at every turn.
Exactly, Carol.
I suggest you go looking for a deserted island to go to. Society always imposes its belief systems and behavioral demands.
Humans always force their beliefs onto others. Just look at the Woke religion of now and the oaths of woke piety you have to state just to get a job. The Marxists are very good at taking over institutions from schmoos that lacked any convictions.
Exactly, Carol.
Nonsense. All we non-believers ask is that you leave us alone. Believe what you will, behave as you like. Don’t insist on imposing your beliefs and behavioral demands on the rest of us.