Emmanuel Macron’s call for Europe to reduce its dependency on the United States and develop its own “strategic autonomy” caused a transatlantic tantrum. The Atlanticist establishment, in the US as much as in Europe, responded in a typically unrestrained fashion — and, in doing so, missed something crucial: Macron’s words revealed less about the state of Euro-American relations than they did about intra-European relations.
Very simply, the “Europe” Macron speaks of no longer exists, if it ever did. On paper, almost the entire continent is united under one supranational flag — that of the European Union. But that is more fractured than ever. On top of the economic and cultural divides that have always plagued the bloc, the war in Ukraine has caused a massive fault line to re-emerge along the borders of the Iron Curtain. The East-West divide is back with a vengeance.
This was underscored by the reaction to Macron’s remarks. On the one hand, Charles Michel, the Belgian President of the European Council, implied that the French president’s position reflects the views of several Western European leaders, including in Germany. On the other, Mateusz Morawiecki, the prime minister of Poland, spoke for most Central and Eastern European (CEE) countries when he stated: “The alliance with the United States is the absolute foundation of our security… Instead of building strategic autonomy from the US, I propose a strategic partnership with the US.” This isn’t a tactical or even a strategic disagreement; these are two existentially dichotomous visions.
Perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised. The East-West divide has been one of Europe’s defining geographical and political paradigms for centuries. The end of the Cold War and, then, the CEE countries’ accession to the EU just over a decade later were both heralded as the post-Communist countries’ much-awaited “return to Europe”. It was widely believed that the EU’s universalist project would smooth out any major social and cultural differences between Western and Central-Eastern Europe — meaning that the latter would slowly become more like the former. Such a hubristic (and arguably imperialistic) project was bound to fail; indeed, tensions and contradictions quickly became apparent between the two Europes.
One early topic of disagreement was, inevitably, Russia. Since they emerged from Soviet occupation, several CEE states, especially those on or close to the border with Russia, have remained suspicious of Moscow’s geostrategic intentions. By contrast, Western European nations, with Germany at the forefront, boosted economic ties with Russia, especially in the field of energy. Some even envisaged building an integrated Eurasian geopolitical bloc theoretically stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok. From a Central-Eastern European perspective this might have seemed crazy, but from a Western European perspective it made perfect sense, given the strong historical, cultural and even ideological ties (especially in those countries with once-powerful Communist parties) between Western Europe and Russia.
Over the years, America amplified these divisions. In 2003, for example, on the eve of the Iraq War, Donald Rumsfeld famously scorned France and Germany as the “old Europe”, which he contrasted with the vitality of the “new Europe” — the CEE states that were soon after included in Nato. “The centre of gravity is shifting to the East,” he said.
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Subscribe“It was widely believed that the EU’s universalist project would smooth out any major social and cultural differences between West and East”
Much like it was widely believed that China’s embrace of capitalism would smooth over its authoritarianism and gradually liberalize its governance.
Two of the largest foreign policy errors of the last 80 years, both made by the same people. And they (or others who went to the same universities and think the same way) are still in charge.
“the turn towards ‘illiberal’ or ‘post-liberal’ democracy in various CEE countries”
This is just not accurate and it’s high time to stop using it as a slur against Eastern Europe. The EU is the “illiberal” actor on this stage. Believing that different groups of people have different historical cultures and will produce slightly different governance structures isn’t giving up on liberalism at all. Look at France vs the USA: very different, but both liberal countries. Similarly, there’s nothing illiberal about Hungary. There are real elections. There is real media (with 2 sides, unlike in most of Europe or the USA). Unlike in most of Western Europe though, in Budapest, Orthodox Jews go to synagogue without fear and gay men hold hands in public without fear. Hungary certainly has problems, but real elections, press that covers both sides, and physical safety for religious and sexual minorities… what else could you ask for in a liberal society?
There is however, something very illiberal about blackmailing countries you don’t like, holding up their COVID aid or freezing their bank reserves until they comply with your wishes. Both the US and the EU do that routinely.
Agreed. It is the EU that is the illiberal bureaucratic bully seeking to impose its dictat.
It is hardly surprising that the EU is an arrogant bully because the driving force behind it is Germany, and due no doubt to a deep seated historical inferiority complex*, Germany is a ‘natural born bully’.
(* Failure to be fully integrated into the Classical Roman Empire perhaps being just one factor.)
Clement Attlee once remarked: “I’m not very keen on the Common Market. After all, we beat Germany and we beat Italy and we saved France and Belgium and Holland. I never see why we should go crawling to them.”
That is, the mere fact of EU membership – on any terms – was humiliating in itself. And any mainland European state which refuses to know-tow will always be seen as “arrogant”.
As a Paddy in NI, I can only say that the EU always treated us with much more respect than either London or Dublin ever did. Re the Protocol, the EU flew people in and visited the border region and listened carefully to local business concerns and took them on board. By contrast, Johnson said it was no different from passing from one London borough to the next lol.
I seem to recall that the US was rather keen on ‘us’ taking the lead in Europe at the time, but as you say ‘we’ just couldn’t do it. Magnanimity just didn’t stretch that far!
They (US) should have made our enormous tranche of ‘Marshall Aid’ dependent upon it.
Surely they did just that but in a covert, and shared out way. GB and 90% of Europe are currently behaving like vassal states under US ‘persuasion’ (threats more like)..
That maybe so, but ‘we’ only have ourselves to blame.
That maybe so, but ‘we’ only have ourselves to blame.
We couldn’t do it because we are not Europeans.
We have a system of Common law which the Europeans do not have and do not understand.
Agreed, which makes our entry in The Common Market in 1973 all the more absurd.
Of course.
Of course.
Such a good point, and different criminal law elements, and not least that in UK ( well, until woke) all is legal unless illegal, but the opposite in Europe.So few people know, let alone understand this?
Agreed, which makes our entry in The Common Market in 1973 all the more absurd.
Such a good point, and different criminal law elements, and not least that in UK ( well, until woke) all is legal unless illegal, but the opposite in Europe.So few people know, let alone understand this?
Surely they did just that but in a covert, and shared out way. GB and 90% of Europe are currently behaving like vassal states under US ‘persuasion’ (threats more like)..
We couldn’t do it because we are not Europeans.
We have a system of Common law which the Europeans do not have and do not understand.
..and of course it was the Russians who defeated Nazi Germany with the US and the Brits playing a bit part.. Humility, Gratitude and Shame were never part of the British make up, sadly. It would help them so much now in their hour of need.
You’re up early today Liam! The Lusitanian sun getting rather hot?
I very much doubt that the Soviets could have done it without US Lend-Lease.
However given the tsunami of Marxist piffle still swilling around in academia I can understand your point.
Ah that superior all knowing AngloSaxon Stanhopeless brain sneering and looking down on everyone else – again.
You should come to the great state of Oklahoma – we’re tough no nonesense folks. We’d sort you out good and proper by injecting a substantial, and very badly needed, element of Christian humility and the brotherhood of all mankind into that sneering hate filled AngloSaxon brain of yours.
Judge not, lest ye be judged?
isnt your state named after a musical?
You sound pretty hate filled yourself.
Judge not, lest ye be judged?
isnt your state named after a musical?
You sound pretty hate filled yourself.
Ah that superior all knowing AngloSaxon Stanhopeless brain sneering and looking down on everyone else – again.
You should come to the great state of Oklahoma – we’re tough no nonesense folks. We’d sort you out good and proper by injecting a substantial, and very badly needed, element of Christian humility and the brotherhood of all mankind into that sneering hate filled AngloSaxon brain of yours.
ooh such red minus numbers. But really Liam that is pretty much what I wish to say. British exceptionalism is so last century, but the hold is strong still sadly.
Not sure why you got downvoted most for. The former or the latter half.
Russian blood, American machinery, British tech know-how.
You’re up early today Liam! The Lusitanian sun getting rather hot?
I very much doubt that the Soviets could have done it without US Lend-Lease.
However given the tsunami of Marxist piffle still swilling around in academia I can understand your point.
ooh such red minus numbers. But really Liam that is pretty much what I wish to say. British exceptionalism is so last century, but the hold is strong still sadly.
Not sure why you got downvoted most for. The former or the latter half.
Russian blood, American machinery, British tech know-how.
Of course the EU did and would as NI is the connection with the UK and losing NI would be akin to cutting off one big toe, there would be a lack of balance in the UK favour. plus having to protect a long border line.
I seem to recall that the US was rather keen on ‘us’ taking the lead in Europe at the time, but as you say ‘we’ just couldn’t do it. Magnanimity just didn’t stretch that far!
They (US) should have made our enormous tranche of ‘Marshall Aid’ dependent upon it.
..and of course it was the Russians who defeated Nazi Germany with the US and the Brits playing a bit part.. Humility, Gratitude and Shame were never part of the British make up, sadly. It would help them so much now in their hour of need.
Of course the EU did and would as NI is the connection with the UK and losing NI would be akin to cutting off one big toe, there would be a lack of balance in the UK favour. plus having to protect a long border line.
Couple of real stretches there Charlie I think.. as usual you’re somewhere between 70 and 1,700 years out of date.. Germans don’t have any kind of inferiority complex. What they do have is a guilt complex and that is to their credit.. you Brits could do with some yourselves.. but no such luck!
Guilt? An apologist for a genocidal belief system such as Communism has the gall to prattle of guilt?
My country never engaged in such heinous war crimes so we have nothing to be ashamed of.. I’m no apologist for any regime but I call out countries that have engaged in such crimes, Russia and China included! The one difference is that they persecuted their own, civil war style etc. Other countries invaded foreign nations with the sole intent of genocide, starvation, enslavement, exploitation and resource theft.. and those actions not only call for shame and guilt but reparation!
You are correct but neglect to say one ex EU member country left most invaded areas in a better state (when allowed to) than before entry.
You are correct but neglect to say one ex EU member country left most invaded areas in a better state (when allowed to) than before entry.
My country never engaged in such heinous war crimes so we have nothing to be ashamed of.. I’m no apologist for any regime but I call out countries that have engaged in such crimes, Russia and China included! The one difference is that they persecuted their own, civil war style etc. Other countries invaded foreign nations with the sole intent of genocide, starvation, enslavement, exploitation and resource theft.. and those actions not only call for shame and guilt but reparation!
Guilt? An apologist for a genocidal belief system such as Communism has the gall to prattle of guilt?
….and I have told my German friends back home that the crassest forms of Gemanophobia in the UK were a thing of the past. Krautbashing is still well and alive, it seems
Jawhol mein fuhrer…
Jawhol mein fuhrer…
Clement Attlee once remarked: “I’m not very keen on the Common Market. After all, we beat Germany and we beat Italy and we saved France and Belgium and Holland. I never see why we should go crawling to them.”
That is, the mere fact of EU membership – on any terms – was humiliating in itself. And any mainland European state which refuses to know-tow will always be seen as “arrogant”.
As a Paddy in NI, I can only say that the EU always treated us with much more respect than either London or Dublin ever did. Re the Protocol, the EU flew people in and visited the border region and listened carefully to local business concerns and took them on board. By contrast, Johnson said it was no different from passing from one London borough to the next lol.
Couple of real stretches there Charlie I think.. as usual you’re somewhere between 70 and 1,700 years out of date.. Germans don’t have any kind of inferiority complex. What they do have is a guilt complex and that is to their credit.. you Brits could do with some yourselves.. but no such luck!
….and I have told my German friends back home that the crassest forms of Gemanophobia in the UK were a thing of the past. Krautbashing is still well and alive, it seems
It is hardly surprising that the EU is an arrogant bully because the driving force behind it is Germany, and due no doubt to a deep seated historical inferiority complex*, Germany is a ‘natural born bully’.
(* Failure to be fully integrated into the Classical Roman Empire perhaps being just one factor.)
Well said. The “illiberalism” comes from the Marxist establishment of the west, not from the properly Liberal east of Europe, which can smell the stench of communism from miles away.
“the Marxist establishment of the west”: are you *seriously* arguing that the ruling classes of the west are actually secret Marxists? Seriously? Or are you, perhaps, thinking of the antisemitic concept of “cultural Marxism”?
Since hanging out round here, I’ve come to understand that the definition of Marxist is pretty elastic. A bit like my kids calling anything the tiniest bit unfair, “racist”.
Yes, I’ve noticed that. Most people don’t seem to have a clue what Marxism is. It is the exact opposite of post modernism but you wouldn’t think it from here.
Not true. There is a persistent anti-Enlightenment strain in Marxism; indeed, it is found in Marx himself. Nor can it be separated from the bulk of his output, for the very emphasis on perspective – invalidating the perception of reality based on “where the speaker is coming from”, (ie, “bourgeois sophistry”) – carries with it the bacillus of extreme relativism – as Karl Popper unanswerably demonstrates in his “Open Society…” So this latest iteration of lunacy from the left is most certainly and assuredly of Marxist origin. I suspect it is usually Marxists who seek to deny this, in order – with their usual mendacity – to cover their traces.
But relativism is incoherent at the best of times. But surely it is not unreasonable to ask who benefits from a particular point of view? Just as you would hardly trust a tobacco company that put out research showing that smoking is perfectly safe. Despite the flowery language that is all Marx is doing. And I am certainly not a Marxist – Marx was just one of many 19thC writers who said some interesting things about society and economics. He is not responsible for the twits who came after him, but not sure why people get so worked up about him.
But relativism is incoherent at the best of times. But surely it is not unreasonable to ask who benefits from a particular point of view? Just as you would hardly trust a tobacco company that put out research showing that smoking is perfectly safe. Despite the flowery language that is all Marx is doing. And I am certainly not a Marxist – Marx was just one of many 19thC writers who said some interesting things about society and economics. He is not responsible for the twits who came after him, but not sure why people get so worked up about him.
Boris and his cabinet WERE Marx Brothers, but far less funny…
Not true. There is a persistent anti-Enlightenment strain in Marxism; indeed, it is found in Marx himself. Nor can it be separated from the bulk of his output, for the very emphasis on perspective – invalidating the perception of reality based on “where the speaker is coming from”, (ie, “bourgeois sophistry”) – carries with it the bacillus of extreme relativism – as Karl Popper unanswerably demonstrates in his “Open Society…” So this latest iteration of lunacy from the left is most certainly and assuredly of Marxist origin. I suspect it is usually Marxists who seek to deny this, in order – with their usual mendacity – to cover their traces.
Boris and his cabinet WERE Marx Brothers, but far less funny…
Yes the term seems to be used for denouncing totalitarianism of any kind. I’m not quite sure why.
All Marxists to the left; all Fascists to the right; nothing in between.
All Marxists to the left; all Fascists to the right; nothing in between.
Perhaps instead of spending so much time heeding the complaints of your “kids” you might care to observe the world beyond the hearth for a moment.
Marxists always deny that they are in fact, Marxists.
Yes, I’ve noticed that. Most people don’t seem to have a clue what Marxism is. It is the exact opposite of post modernism but you wouldn’t think it from here.
Yes the term seems to be used for denouncing totalitarianism of any kind. I’m not quite sure why.
Perhaps instead of spending so much time heeding the complaints of your “kids” you might care to observe the world beyond the hearth for a moment.
Marxists always deny that they are in fact, Marxists.
What is antisemitic about cultural Marxism? The weird sh*t infecting our culture seems driven largely by college “educated” white women.
Say it sister!
Say it sister!
The usual libellous bilge from an unhinged pink. Cultural Marxism has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. Pretending that it has is a dodge typical of persons who, bankrupt of argument, resort to smears – and of course to the very smear to which Marxism, cultural or otherwise, has such abundant recourse today.
Can you tell us what cultural Marxism is? I haven’t a clue but I suspect most others don’t either. It is simply a term of abuse.
Woke.
The replacement of “the working class” by the “rainbow coalition” of “marginalised groups” to overthrow a society based on inherited ethno-cultural identity. That is “cultural Marxism”. It involves diluting / overwhelming the religion and / or customs of that ethno-culture whilst casting doubt on even deeper norms which arise from the habits and imperatives natural to humanity as a species. Clear?
As mud!
To you, perhaps. A knavish speech and all that…
Can’t you take a joke?
When it’s funny.
Just as I thought.
Thank you.
Oh dear. Children please!
Oh dear. Children please!
Just as I thought.
Thank you.
When it’s funny.
Can’t you take a joke?
To you, perhaps. A knavish speech and all that…
What then is ‘ethno-cultural identity’? Sounds like you are buying into the kind of identity politics which is surely part of the idea of a ‘the rainbow coalition’.
Sophistry – and hence typically Marxist – for you know full well that the ethno-cultural identity of an established majority in its homeland is a very different thing from toxic, minority “identity politics” as practised by the left; for the first promotes and the second undermines social stability. Like so many on the left, your comments are less than honest; and replying to them involves disentangling threads which everyone else can see are perfectly distinct.
Sophistry – and hence typically Marxist – for you know full well that the ethno-cultural identity of an established majority in its homeland is a very different thing from toxic, minority “identity politics” as practised by the left; for the first promotes and the second undermines social stability. Like so many on the left, your comments are less than honest; and replying to them involves disentangling threads which everyone else can see are perfectly distinct.
As mud!
What then is ‘ethno-cultural identity’? Sounds like you are buying into the kind of identity politics which is surely part of the idea of a ‘the rainbow coalition’.
Marx believed all history was based on class struggle; cultural Marxists of the Frankfurt School added gender and race to the mix, from there we get via Focault and Derrida, inter-sectionality, sexual preference and transgender… meanwhile class is forgotten, the white workers (once the noble vanguard) despised, and the corporate, academic and adminstrative bourgoisie in the box seat, of not just capitalism but socialism as well playing all sides against the middle to their astonishing profit. Karl and Frederick must be turning in their graves.
Woke.
The replacement of “the working class” by the “rainbow coalition” of “marginalised groups” to overthrow a society based on inherited ethno-cultural identity. That is “cultural Marxism”. It involves diluting / overwhelming the religion and / or customs of that ethno-culture whilst casting doubt on even deeper norms which arise from the habits and imperatives natural to humanity as a species. Clear?
Marx believed all history was based on class struggle; cultural Marxists of the Frankfurt School added gender and race to the mix, from there we get via Focault and Derrida, inter-sectionality, sexual preference and transgender… meanwhile class is forgotten, the white workers (once the noble vanguard) despised, and the corporate, academic and adminstrative bourgoisie in the box seat, of not just capitalism but socialism as well playing all sides against the middle to their astonishing profit. Karl and Frederick must be turning in their graves.
I think it’s fairly clear that what Jim Denham meant (and said) was that the concept/label ‘Cultural Marxism’ is an anti-semitic slur. Thinking, I suppose, of Theodore Adorno, Judith Butler and others.
California Marxism might be an apter name, or German Marxism.
Heck, was Hegel a Marxist rather than Marx a Hegelian? Oh dear, could Marx have been an anti semite?
And so on, round and round the maze of naming. Enough, already!
He certainly said some very nasty things about his fellows on that score.
He certainly said some very nasty things about his fellows on that score.
Can you tell us what cultural Marxism is? I haven’t a clue but I suspect most others don’t either. It is simply a term of abuse.
I think it’s fairly clear that what Jim Denham meant (and said) was that the concept/label ‘Cultural Marxism’ is an anti-semitic slur. Thinking, I suppose, of Theodore Adorno, Judith Butler and others.
California Marxism might be an apter name, or German Marxism.
Heck, was Hegel a Marxist rather than Marx a Hegelian? Oh dear, could Marx have been an anti semite?
And so on, round and round the maze of naming. Enough, already!
What is seriously being argue is rather something like this: “Liberalism’s intolerance springs from fear of its inherent nihilism. Liberals are nihilists too cowardly to face their own nihilism.” Harry Neumann
Since hanging out round here, I’ve come to understand that the definition of Marxist is pretty elastic. A bit like my kids calling anything the tiniest bit unfair, “racist”.
What is antisemitic about cultural Marxism? The weird sh*t infecting our culture seems driven largely by college “educated” white women.
The usual libellous bilge from an unhinged pink. Cultural Marxism has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. Pretending that it has is a dodge typical of persons who, bankrupt of argument, resort to smears – and of course to the very smear to which Marxism, cultural or otherwise, has such abundant recourse today.
What is seriously being argue is rather something like this: “Liberalism’s intolerance springs from fear of its inherent nihilism. Liberals are nihilists too cowardly to face their own nihilism.” Harry Neumann
If there is a stench from Communism then Unbridled, war-driven, US style Capitalism has the stench of death and decay every bit as bad as (far worse in my opinion than) Communism. I guess if you’re in the top 10% you’re happy to put up with the smell as you are always upwind of it.. If you’re among bottom 50% Communism looks a far better deal I submit.
The 100 million souls murdered by Communism would likely disagree.
And so would many of the living, who have lived in squalor for generations. If you have to build a wall to keep people from leaving, that’s a pretty good indication. (side note to A.O.C.)
Souls, Alison, are immortal. it was their poor bodies that were slaughtered.
Well said. But I suspect that words are wasted on such a catastrophically ignorant apologist for communism.
And so would many of the living, who have lived in squalor for generations. If you have to build a wall to keep people from leaving, that’s a pretty good indication. (side note to A.O.C.)
Souls, Alison, are immortal. it was their poor bodies that were slaughtered.
Well said. But I suspect that words are wasted on such a catastrophically ignorant apologist for communism.
Time for your pill now, Liam
Neither Communism or Capitalism actually exist – or ever have. You’re confusing the product with its branding. The choice is only between oligarchy and democracy.
“If there is a stench from Communism then Unbridled, war-driven, US style Capitalism has the stench of death and decay every bit as bad as (far worse in my opinion than) Communism.”
Few comments make me speechless. But congratulations.
He pinched it from Hobsbawm.
He pinched it from Hobsbawm.
You are confusing capitalism with corporatism.
Capitalism is simply the free market or business everyone would be poor without it.
Corporatism is when huge media companies and banking organisations
control governments and make the people poor and less free.
EG, the climate change grift.
Watch out. He’s here again.
The 100 million souls murdered by Communism would likely disagree.
Time for your pill now, Liam
Neither Communism or Capitalism actually exist – or ever have. You’re confusing the product with its branding. The choice is only between oligarchy and democracy.
“If there is a stench from Communism then Unbridled, war-driven, US style Capitalism has the stench of death and decay every bit as bad as (far worse in my opinion than) Communism.”
Few comments make me speechless. But congratulations.
You are confusing capitalism with corporatism.
Capitalism is simply the free market or business everyone would be poor without it.
Corporatism is when huge media companies and banking organisations
control governments and make the people poor and less free.
EG, the climate change grift.
Watch out. He’s here again.
“the Marxist establishment of the west”: are you *seriously* arguing that the ruling classes of the west are actually secret Marxists? Seriously? Or are you, perhaps, thinking of the antisemitic concept of “cultural Marxism”?
If there is a stench from Communism then Unbridled, war-driven, US style Capitalism has the stench of death and decay every bit as bad as (far worse in my opinion than) Communism. I guess if you’re in the top 10% you’re happy to put up with the smell as you are always upwind of it.. If you’re among bottom 50% Communism looks a far better deal I submit.
1) “Illiberal democracy” is not a slur but that a term that Orban and others have themselves used for themselves in a positive sense.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hungary-orban-idUSKBN1KI0BK
2) The EU is liberal – in the sense that it places a high emphasis on individual rights and rule of law (even though quite selectively applied) – but it’s not a democracy.
The problem seems to be that you conflate liberalism and democracy when historically the two are very different things.
With perhaps the sole exception of Switzerland there is NO democracy in the West that either Pericles, Diogenes or even Demosthenes would recognise.
Oh no, again I agree Charlie! Today we have the best governments than money can buy! Sure, unlike classical Greece even women can vote now!
Wasn’t it the women’s vote that got Herr Hitler into power?
Wasn’t it the women’s vote that got Herr Hitler into power?
Pure democracy has another name… mob rule.
And it will be the women’s vote in Scotland that gets rid of the SNP!
And it will be the women’s vote in Scotland that gets rid of the SNP!
Yes, thank goodness for that. Direct democracy is usually a disaster as it was in ancient Greece. Even then it only covered a select few of the populace.
Too many wannabe Alcibiades!
Too many wannabe Alcibiades!
Oh no, again I agree Charlie! Today we have the best governments than money can buy! Sure, unlike classical Greece even women can vote now!
Pure democracy has another name… mob rule.
Yes, thank goodness for that. Direct democracy is usually a disaster as it was in ancient Greece. Even then it only covered a select few of the populace.
Liberalism has too quite distinct meanings these days: Classic liberalism meaning a respect for individual freedoms and Liberal Capitalism meaning the 1% are entirely free to amass obscene wealth, bribe politicians into total submission and grind the 90% into increasing poverty. The latter type of ‘liberalism’ is, in reality, total economic control and so much closer to Totalitarianism.
Just like the word Spohisticated now means almost the opposite of it’s original meaning. Similarly news is now what we used to call propaganda while truth is now called propaganda so truth tellers are accused of treachery and apologism (I made up the last word; why not.. these days I’m entitled!)
With perhaps the sole exception of Switzerland there is NO democracy in the West that either Pericles, Diogenes or even Demosthenes would recognise.
Liberalism has too quite distinct meanings these days: Classic liberalism meaning a respect for individual freedoms and Liberal Capitalism meaning the 1% are entirely free to amass obscene wealth, bribe politicians into total submission and grind the 90% into increasing poverty. The latter type of ‘liberalism’ is, in reality, total economic control and so much closer to Totalitarianism.
Just like the word Spohisticated now means almost the opposite of it’s original meaning. Similarly news is now what we used to call propaganda while truth is now called propaganda so truth tellers are accused of treachery and apologism (I made up the last word; why not.. these days I’m entitled!)
“…. and gay men hold hands in public without fear.”
Hm, well, I would not be too sure about that. (https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/07/23/what-s-it-like-to-be-lgbt-in-hungary-amid-orban-s-rights-crackdown)
What is rather more to the point is that Orban is a notable dissenter in the West’s pro-Ukraine support. Great news for Putin, bad news for us.
Orban seems more motivated by the meddling by the US in his nation. All it took was a Tucker interview and the resist response in return – then Orban fell off the approved list.
Orban seems more motivated by the meddling by the US in his nation. All it took was a Tucker interview and the resist response in return – then Orban fell off the approved list.
You are absolutely spot on. In general, EU/Western moralising about other cultures is at best annoying and at worst racist. Encourage by all means, but lecturing and moralising is not acceptable. I know I feel very safe at night in Eastern European city centres, I can’t say I feel the same in any Western European city centres.
It seems strange to say the word “illiberal” is some kind of slur, and then go on to say, “there is nothing illiberal about Hungary.” But you seem to be widely overstepping the fact that Victor Orban often uses the word “illiberal” to describe Hungary, has used it for at least a decade, and clearly is proud of giving Hungary the title of “illiberal state.” In other words you make is sound unfair to use a word to describe Hungary that its own leaders use to describe it as well.
If you are going to go on the defense because somebody uses some word that triggers you, maybe you should at least familiarize yourself with the basic facts surrounding your grievance first! Because it seriously undermines the rest of your argument, even for someone who is sympathetic to it like me.
Very well said. Liberalism increasingly means whatever the unholy alliance of ivory tower academics, environmentalist nuts, and globalist oligarchs decide that it means, and anyone who doesn’t agree is a racist, xenophobic, knuckle-dragging troglodyte. When shame and persuasion stop working, they resort to blackmail and extortion. Once that stops working they’ll punish dissidents using whatever means they have available.
Apart from calling some of the Eastern European Countries “post-liberal” (they are certainly trying to block some of the “liberal” undemocratic EU Commission’s/President’s decisions ), the author also inaccurately states that “the velvet curtain” symbolises a cultural line between Western Catholic/Protestant nations and an Eastern Orthodox Europe, stating in his article that Orthodox Christians are supposedly more family oriented. I can’t think of more Catholic Nations than Poland, Slovakia and a big portion of Hungary. There are some Orthodox minorities in the Baltic, but Lithuania has a huge Catholic population, leading back to the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.
The big difference in culture is that Eastern Europe seems to be still more conservative and religious compared to the woke and PC West. I would also argue, that most of Eastern governments are highly sceptical about the slavish faith in NetZero, which will eventually bring the industrial power of mighty “Green” Germany to a sudden halt.
Thanks, you saved me replaying directly to author claims about “velvet curtain”.
Western Slaws (Poles, Czechs, Slovakians) and Hungarians are Catholic.
But Romanians, Bulgarians and Serbians are mostly Orthodox.
Even then divisions, in Poland anyway, are between quite woke population of big cities and more culturally traditional denizens od small cities and villages.
What unites traditionalists and some of modernists is refusal to allow mass immigration of culturally incompatible people like Muslims and Africans.
Which EU is trying to impose via quota mechanism.
Thanks, you saved me replaying directly to author claims about “velvet curtain”.
Western Slaws (Poles, Czechs, Slovakians) and Hungarians are Catholic.
But Romanians, Bulgarians and Serbians are mostly Orthodox.
Even then divisions, in Poland anyway, are between quite woke population of big cities and more culturally traditional denizens od small cities and villages.
What unites traditionalists and some of modernists is refusal to allow mass immigration of culturally incompatible people like Muslims and Africans.
Which EU is trying to impose via quota mechanism.
Agreed. It is the EU that is the illiberal bureaucratic bully seeking to impose its dictat.
Well said. The “illiberalism” comes from the Marxist establishment of the west, not from the properly Liberal east of Europe, which can smell the stench of communism from miles away.
1) “Illiberal democracy” is not a slur but that a term that Orban and others have themselves used for themselves in a positive sense.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hungary-orban-idUSKBN1KI0BK
2) The EU is liberal – in the sense that it places a high emphasis on individual rights and rule of law (even though quite selectively applied) – but it’s not a democracy.
The problem seems to be that you conflate liberalism and democracy when historically the two are very different things.
“…. and gay men hold hands in public without fear.”
Hm, well, I would not be too sure about that. (https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/07/23/what-s-it-like-to-be-lgbt-in-hungary-amid-orban-s-rights-crackdown)
What is rather more to the point is that Orban is a notable dissenter in the West’s pro-Ukraine support. Great news for Putin, bad news for us.
You are absolutely spot on. In general, EU/Western moralising about other cultures is at best annoying and at worst racist. Encourage by all means, but lecturing and moralising is not acceptable. I know I feel very safe at night in Eastern European city centres, I can’t say I feel the same in any Western European city centres.
It seems strange to say the word “illiberal” is some kind of slur, and then go on to say, “there is nothing illiberal about Hungary.” But you seem to be widely overstepping the fact that Victor Orban often uses the word “illiberal” to describe Hungary, has used it for at least a decade, and clearly is proud of giving Hungary the title of “illiberal state.” In other words you make is sound unfair to use a word to describe Hungary that its own leaders use to describe it as well.
If you are going to go on the defense because somebody uses some word that triggers you, maybe you should at least familiarize yourself with the basic facts surrounding your grievance first! Because it seriously undermines the rest of your argument, even for someone who is sympathetic to it like me.
Very well said. Liberalism increasingly means whatever the unholy alliance of ivory tower academics, environmentalist nuts, and globalist oligarchs decide that it means, and anyone who doesn’t agree is a racist, xenophobic, knuckle-dragging troglodyte. When shame and persuasion stop working, they resort to blackmail and extortion. Once that stops working they’ll punish dissidents using whatever means they have available.
Apart from calling some of the Eastern European Countries “post-liberal” (they are certainly trying to block some of the “liberal” undemocratic EU Commission’s/President’s decisions ), the author also inaccurately states that “the velvet curtain” symbolises a cultural line between Western Catholic/Protestant nations and an Eastern Orthodox Europe, stating in his article that Orthodox Christians are supposedly more family oriented. I can’t think of more Catholic Nations than Poland, Slovakia and a big portion of Hungary. There are some Orthodox minorities in the Baltic, but Lithuania has a huge Catholic population, leading back to the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.
The big difference in culture is that Eastern Europe seems to be still more conservative and religious compared to the woke and PC West. I would also argue, that most of Eastern governments are highly sceptical about the slavish faith in NetZero, which will eventually bring the industrial power of mighty “Green” Germany to a sudden halt.
“It was widely believed that the EU’s universalist project would smooth out any major social and cultural differences between West and East”
Much like it was widely believed that China’s embrace of capitalism would smooth over its authoritarianism and gradually liberalize its governance.
Two of the largest foreign policy errors of the last 80 years, both made by the same people. And they (or others who went to the same universities and think the same way) are still in charge.
“the turn towards ‘illiberal’ or ‘post-liberal’ democracy in various CEE countries”
This is just not accurate and it’s high time to stop using it as a slur against Eastern Europe. The EU is the “illiberal” actor on this stage. Believing that different groups of people have different historical cultures and will produce slightly different governance structures isn’t giving up on liberalism at all. Look at France vs the USA: very different, but both liberal countries. Similarly, there’s nothing illiberal about Hungary. There are real elections. There is real media (with 2 sides, unlike in most of Europe or the USA). Unlike in most of Western Europe though, in Budapest, Orthodox Jews go to synagogue without fear and gay men hold hands in public without fear. Hungary certainly has problems, but real elections, press that covers both sides, and physical safety for religious and sexual minorities… what else could you ask for in a liberal society?
There is however, something very illiberal about blackmailing countries you don’t like, holding up their COVID aid or freezing their bank reserves until they comply with your wishes. Both the US and the EU do that routinely.
Worth saying that while elite opinion may differ, there are huge constituencies in Western Europe who look on Eastern Europe’s response to wokeism with great envy.
Worth saying that while elite opinion may differ, there are huge constituencies in Western Europe who look on Eastern Europe’s response to wokeism with great envy.
‘while Eastern Europe has been predominantly Orthodox’
Poland is about 95% Catholic.
About 70% of Lithuanians are Catholic.
Quite. Estonia is Lutheran. Hungary has just about every variant of non-Orthodox Christianity, but mainly Catholic. Romania like Hungary, but now very Orthodox. Czechia and Slovakia are Catholic.
The whole thing is far more complicated than a simple East/West split into two distinct blocs.
Hungary used to be mostly Protestant. I suppose they all ended up in Ukraine and Romania, or simply, as with the Magyars, dead.
It was around the end of the 16th century that the majority of Hungary was protestant (overwhelmingly Calvinist with some Lutherans as well). But after the Ottoman empire was pushed out of Hungary and Hungary was reunified with Transylvania under the Catholic Habsburgs, many Protestants re-catholized, some due to the pressure, some voluntarily as it was feared that Catholic-Protestant religious heterogenity would endanger the national unity (but this fear turned out to be non-justified).
Today about 20-25% of religious people are Calvinists, with 8-10 % Lutheran and about 60% Catholic.
Magyars are absolutely not dead: “magyar” means Hungarian in Hungarian and we are very much alive.
It was around the end of the 16th century that the majority of Hungary was protestant (overwhelmingly Calvinist with some Lutherans as well). But after the Ottoman empire was pushed out of Hungary and Hungary was reunified with Transylvania under the Catholic Habsburgs, many Protestants re-catholized, some due to the pressure, some voluntarily as it was feared that Catholic-Protestant religious heterogenity would endanger the national unity (but this fear turned out to be non-justified).
Today about 20-25% of religious people are Calvinists, with 8-10 % Lutheran and about 60% Catholic.
Magyars are absolutely not dead: “magyar” means Hungarian in Hungarian and we are very much alive.
Put more accurately, these countries USED to practice these religions.. you forget the churches are more or less empty these days. More people today follow the Kardashians than the Christ!
The piece also omits to discuss the UK and our attitude toward the US and the growing relationship with Poland, and most importantly our military support of Ukraine since 2014 (albeit small, but it was far more than France and especially Germany)
Czechia was Catholic. It is now probably least religious country in Europe.
Hungary used to be mostly Protestant. I suppose they all ended up in Ukraine and Romania, or simply, as with the Magyars, dead.
Put more accurately, these countries USED to practice these religions.. you forget the churches are more or less empty these days. More people today follow the Kardashians than the Christ!
The piece also omits to discuss the UK and our attitude toward the US and the growing relationship with Poland, and most importantly our military support of Ukraine since 2014 (albeit small, but it was far more than France and especially Germany)
Czechia was Catholic. It is now probably least religious country in Europe.
Indeed. What should be said is their take on Catholicism is more conservative and thus more closely resembles Catholicism.
Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia and Slovenia are also predominantly Catholic, although religious affiliation is fading there as elsewhere. Whatever the divide between Mitteleuropa and western Europe, it is not based on religion.
Indeed: the Czech Republic is the most irreligious nation in Europe, at least if the surveys are to be believed
The legacy of burning Jan Hus*, whilst supposedly under ‘safe conduct ‘!
“You may burn a weak Goose…………..”.
(* The word for Goose in Czech.)
The legacy of burning Jan Hus*, whilst supposedly under ‘safe conduct ‘!
“You may burn a weak Goose…………..”.
(* The word for Goose in Czech.)
Indeed: the Czech Republic is the most irreligious nation in Europe, at least if the surveys are to be believed
You omitted the word Roman.. without it COE are catholics.. though you did use a capital C.
Correct!
Correct!
Quite. Estonia is Lutheran. Hungary has just about every variant of non-Orthodox Christianity, but mainly Catholic. Romania like Hungary, but now very Orthodox. Czechia and Slovakia are Catholic.
The whole thing is far more complicated than a simple East/West split into two distinct blocs.
Indeed. What should be said is their take on Catholicism is more conservative and thus more closely resembles Catholicism.
Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Croatia and Slovenia are also predominantly Catholic, although religious affiliation is fading there as elsewhere. Whatever the divide between Mitteleuropa and western Europe, it is not based on religion.
You omitted the word Roman.. without it COE are catholics.. though you did use a capital C.
‘while Eastern Europe has been predominantly Orthodox’
Poland is about 95% Catholic.
About 70% of Lithuanians are Catholic.
The views ascribed to Huntingdon (hidden behind a paywall) are simplistic in the extreme. There is a religious cleavage in Europe, but it’s much further east than the old Iron Curtain.
What animates CEE is being stuck between two powerful and historically aggressive countries – Germany and Russia. It was the desire not to be a weak buffer zone between these two powers that persuaded CEE to join NATO.
The fact of the matter is that CEE countries think for themselves. They are not the chorus line behind France and Germany.
Having been let down by France (e.g. Czechoslovakia) and invaded by Germany and then the Soviet Union, they are well advised to think for themselves.
You can blame most of that on the Treaty/Dictate of Trianon (1920.)
..as we are are!
You can blame most of that on the Treaty/Dictate of Trianon (1920.)
..as we are are!
Having been let down by France (e.g. Czechoslovakia) and invaded by Germany and then the Soviet Union, they are well advised to think for themselves.
The views ascribed to Huntingdon (hidden behind a paywall) are simplistic in the extreme. There is a religious cleavage in Europe, but it’s much further east than the old Iron Curtain.
What animates CEE is being stuck between two powerful and historically aggressive countries – Germany and Russia. It was the desire not to be a weak buffer zone between these two powers that persuaded CEE to join NATO.
The fact of the matter is that CEE countries think for themselves. They are not the chorus line behind France and Germany.
The East Europeans will be well aware of the instability in The Russian Federation. What we call Russia in an empire run from Moscow. Whether Putin prevails or loses in The Ukraine, the situation in Russia will not remain static. I would argue that he has already lost, and that The Russian Federation could easily descend into semi-chaos if Moscow’s grip weakens.
Thomas Fazi will be aware that a Polish – Lithuanian state, incoporating western Ukraine, has existed before and might look attractive again. As the cornerstone of such an entity, Poland would do well to arm itself as much as possible, and await developments.
They can align themselves with the US as they are doing already. The US might have some difficulty keeping its jackboot on the neck of all of Europe but it will find a willing vassal in the (greater) Poland you describe; and of course having its 51st state on Russia’s doorstep (and the EU’s) will suit the US wonderfully. Far easier to drive a wedge between the EU and Russia that way than try to coral the ‘awkward’ French into the mix. Germany might as well revert to the old East-West arrangement but with a Protocol rather than a border like NI? I think that will make everyone happy, except the Russians but when did anyone care what the Russians want?
Our resident swivel-eyed fanatic is on manoeuvres!
Have you ever considered that based on lessons of history, USA is the only viable ally of Poland?
Germany and French policy of strategic independence from USA is just nonsense for both economic and military reason.
And their appeasement of Russian aggressions turned out to be wrong policy.
So no wonder that countries which might be next on Russia wish list are looking to USA for leadership and security.
Our resident swivel-eyed fanatic is on manoeuvres!
Have you ever considered that based on lessons of history, USA is the only viable ally of Poland?
Germany and French policy of strategic independence from USA is just nonsense for both economic and military reason.
And their appeasement of Russian aggressions turned out to be wrong policy.
So no wonder that countries which might be next on Russia wish list are looking to USA for leadership and security.
Yes, that state existed but since then relations between Lithuanians and Poles were not that friendly because of territorial disputes over Wilno etc.
Obviously not as bad as between Poles and Ukranians.
For those interested, pour yourself stiff drink and watch movie “Wolyn”.
Former Polish PM and EU Council President newer denied rumour that Putin offered him partition of Ukraine.
But there is neither desire or any benefit to Poland of ever considering return to lost lands.
For a start, Polish inhabitants were resetled by Stalin first in Siberia and Kazakhstan and then in what is now Western Poland.
“Yes, that state existed but since then relations between Lithuanians and Poles were not that friendly because of territorial disputes over Wilno etc.”
But they are united in their (justified) fear of Russia.
“Yes, that state existed but since then relations between Lithuanians and Poles were not that friendly because of territorial disputes over Wilno etc.”
But they are united in their (justified) fear of Russia.
They can align themselves with the US as they are doing already. The US might have some difficulty keeping its jackboot on the neck of all of Europe but it will find a willing vassal in the (greater) Poland you describe; and of course having its 51st state on Russia’s doorstep (and the EU’s) will suit the US wonderfully. Far easier to drive a wedge between the EU and Russia that way than try to coral the ‘awkward’ French into the mix. Germany might as well revert to the old East-West arrangement but with a Protocol rather than a border like NI? I think that will make everyone happy, except the Russians but when did anyone care what the Russians want?
Yes, that state existed but since then relations between Lithuanians and Poles were not that friendly because of territorial disputes over Wilno etc.
Obviously not as bad as between Poles and Ukranians.
For those interested, pour yourself stiff drink and watch movie “Wolyn”.
Former Polish PM and EU Council President newer denied rumour that Putin offered him partition of Ukraine.
But there is neither desire or any benefit to Poland of ever considering return to lost lands.
For a start, Polish inhabitants were resetled by Stalin first in Siberia and Kazakhstan and then in what is now Western Poland.
The East Europeans will be well aware of the instability in The Russian Federation. What we call Russia in an empire run from Moscow. Whether Putin prevails or loses in The Ukraine, the situation in Russia will not remain static. I would argue that he has already lost, and that The Russian Federation could easily descend into semi-chaos if Moscow’s grip weakens.
Thomas Fazi will be aware that a Polish – Lithuanian state, incoporating western Ukraine, has existed before and might look attractive again. As the cornerstone of such an entity, Poland would do well to arm itself as much as possible, and await developments.
The countries need to split from the EU and close down the communist monster that is being created.
Russia hasn’t been Communist for a long time! Are you referring to Communist China?
Russia hasn’t been Communist for a long time! Are you referring to Communist China?
The countries need to split from the EU and close down the communist monster that is being created.
Despite the ideological differences, the ”Old Europe” has wasted no time in exploiting the emergence and development of a large economy which Poland represents. There is a large Franco-German presence in retail, some in banking, also in infrastructure development where EU investments are finding their way back westwards. I’m guessing the same actors just can’t wait to expand into Ukraine if and when Ukraine manages to kick out the Russians. As an aside, I believe Macron and France in general are the greatest threat to European unity.
Your last two sentences are completely and utterly wrong.. Russia will NEVER be driven out of East+South Ukraine. France is very keen on a united Europe but with France leading it of course..
Ukraine is finished already.
Zelenskyy cannot give up because the Nazis in his army will kill him if he negotiates.
Zelenskyy will continue to send old men and young men to their deaths.
Zelenskyy is no hero, he’s a crook.
I agree 100% with all you say, except Zelenskyy goes abroad a lot.. what’s to stop him staying there? He has loads of dosh!
He will end up in exile in the US by the end of the year.
How very unfortunate!