Who’d be Archbishop of Canterbury? Not me. You have surprisingly little executive power and get blamed for pretty much everything: from earthquakes (you are God’s representative, after all), politics (too involved, not involved enough), and the petty disputes of your fractious disputatious clergy — of which I am one.
If vicars are often an object of projection, so much more the Archbishop. Any assessment of Justin Welby’s 10 years of office, therefore, will say more about me than him. The Archbishop is a living, breathing Rorschach test. Still: here goes.
Welby is hard to read because he is seemingly open and yet emotionally closed at the same time. Even before he landed the top job in the worldwide Anglican Communion, he was adept at not granting access to his inner world. The social polish you learn at Eton, with its arsenal of confident self-deprecation, is precisely the sort of self-protecting buffer zone that you need to survive being the nation’s punch bag.
There has been great pain in his life: dysfunctional alcoholic parents, the loss of a seven-month-year-old baby daughter in a car accident. Understandably, he has suffered periods of crippling darkness and has admitted to taking anti-depressants. He is brave in talking about his bruises, and yet also strangely hidden, both open and emotionally distant. And since he is not a natural people person, his openness can come across as scripted.
Welby smiles to reassure, but in repose his face crackles with all the scary intensity of an officer on the Death Star; yes, a bit like a born-again Director Krennic. People say he has a thunderous temper when things don’t go his own way, which I can quite believe. Sometimes you can’t keep it all bottled up. I like Welby, but I am frightened of him.
Back in 2012, I interviewed him for The Guardian when he was still Bishop of Durham. Paddy Power had him at 6/1 to be the next vicar to the nation. We discussed woman bishops, still seen as a long way off. How would he reconcile the competing demands of those who see it as a theological necessity and those who deem it a theological impossibility? How would he square the circle, I asked? “Well, you just look at the circle and say it’s a circle with sharp bits on it,” he laughed. Anglicanism has always involved a certain amount of shape-shifting from its leadership. The phrase “all things to all men” is from the Bible, after all. But that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good thing. Ideologically, Welby can be what you want him to be.
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Subscribe“Ideologically, Welby can be what you want him to be.” Says the author.
So by that description Welby is weak, insincere, and has no conviction. And from his insecure dictates and his wokery, it certainly seems so. So how can Giles possibly then say this?
“…the Church of England has never felt weaker. It’s not his fault…”
Oh really? Well, if not the archbishop of Canterbury then who might be regarded as responsible for the well-being of the church of England?
I am not one of your “flock” “Shepherd Giles”. But let me tell you this. You lot are going to need to get a pair of balls between your legs, some fire in your belly, and some conviction in your minds, if you want the Anglican church to even exist in 10 years time.
It is certainly true that the churches whose numbers are increasing are evangelical and hold to rather “old fashioned” doctrines whereas the traditional churches that seek to move with the times and take on board fashionable secular ideas are in continuous decline.
Well, Jeremy, if declining churches are so “traditional,” what are they doing with “fashionable secular ideas”?
Those two things don’t go together. Why would anyone bother going to church, after all, if fashionable ideas are promoted everywhere, by definition, and often far more effectively (whether for the good or not) than in church? Every religious tradition has a sine qua non, a distinctive way of thinking about and experiencing the world. If it fails to propagate that tradition from one generation to another, then it has lost its raison d’etre.
Like so many other officially religious institutions (including Jewish and other non-Christian ones), the Church of England has tried to translate religion into secular terms–or, to be more specific, reduce religion to some phenomenon that’s more acceptable to scientists or social scientists. Academic theologians notwithstanding, this cannot be done. Even the early Christian “apologists” recognized that there were limits to how far they could go in making Christianity compatible with the alien worldviews of Greeks and Romans. The conflict between particularism and universalism, resulting in some measure of adaptation, continued as Christianity spread from one cultural matrix to another. But the secular matrix is very different from that of any foreign religion.
In my opinion, the main problem is not that so many people now reject the “idea” of God but that so many people today lack the experience of holiness--in many cases, even when they do go to church. Secularized churches preserve a few remnants of tradition (such as its rituals, symbols, art, architecture, costumes, music, choreography, even some portions or versions of scripture), sure, but they replace what had once given meaning to them with more “rational” substitutes (such as moral instruction, group psychotherapy, emotional catharsis, political consciousness-raising or some other form of “community building”). It doesn’t work. It’s fraudulent. And no managerial skill can change that. After well over a century, this much should be clear to everyone. When it comes to religion, people want either the real thing or nothing.
You could argue that “charismatic” churches are not reductive and therefore “traditional.” I’m not so sure. Maybe they’re less reductive or less obviously reductive. But I’ve learned enough about them to suspect that they rely heavily (though not openly or even consciously) on the mechanisms of group psychology, some of which are very manipulative. Its high levels of emotionalism and anti-intellectualism, at any rate, link this movement with the emotionalism and anti-intellectualism that became fashionable in one form of another in the 1960s and 1970s but now pervade all levels of society.
Good post. I largely agree with you, but I remain optimistic about the church. When times are good, people ignore or go against it. When times are bad they flock back to the pews. Christianity is a desert flower that doesn’t do well in lush environments.
Your optimism, then, must surely flow from the belief that times are bad and will be getting much worse.
I think you may be right….
For that reason, I think the Church *must* hold itself pure from the pervasive cancer of Woke Utopianism – people will not flock to the churches to escape it if the churches are ideologically captured by the same garbage.
While I’m optimistic about Christianity, I am less so about the future. I predict a time when Christianity will be purposefully conflated with hatred and bigotry in order to push through a progressive agenda.
already happening in Canada. 60 churches burned – not a murmur. Imagine if a single Mosque was burned down; or a queer resource centre
Mosques are not immune to firebomb attacks from the far right either unfortunately and Modi’s India and Xi’s China restricts Muslim free worship
But if that happened once in Canada, there would be a national day of mourning and repentance in perpetuity
But if that happened once in Canada, there would be a national day of mourning and repentance in perpetuity
Unfortunately some mosques are attacked by the far right and in India under Modi and Xi’s China Moslems are restricted from freely worshipping
Mosques are not immune to firebomb attacks from the far right either unfortunately and Modi’s India and Xi’s China restricts Muslim free worship
Unfortunately some mosques are attacked by the far right and in India under Modi and Xi’s China Moslems are restricted from freely worshipping
already happening in Canada. 60 churches burned – not a murmur. Imagine if a single Mosque was burned down; or a queer resource centre
While I’m optimistic about Christianity, I am less so about the future. I predict a time when Christianity will be purposefully conflated with hatred and bigotry in order to push through a progressive agenda.
What’s Christianity got to do with the Church of England? They abandoned that connection decades ago.
Your optimism, then, must surely flow from the belief that times are bad and will be getting much worse.
I think you may be right….
For that reason, I think the Church *must* hold itself pure from the pervasive cancer of Woke Utopianism – people will not flock to the churches to escape it if the churches are ideologically captured by the same garbage.
What’s Christianity got to do with the Church of England? They abandoned that connection decades ago.
It would indeed be more impressive if Welby could say like Luther “ Here I stand I can do no other, so help me God”. Instead he slips and slides to be up to date – to be a good bureaucrat and seek compromise.
Good post. I largely agree with you, but I remain optimistic about the church. When times are good, people ignore or go against it. When times are bad they flock back to the pews. Christianity is a desert flower that doesn’t do well in lush environments.
It would indeed be more impressive if Welby could say like Luther “ Here I stand I can do no other, so help me God”. Instead he slips and slides to be up to date – to be a good bureaucrat and seek compromise.
That’s because Jesus is building His Church and the Church of England is not His Church – unlike the Church IN England. And if the Author doesn’t think homosexuality is a sin then he should be in the Wolf Pit.
Good grief.
The vast majority of people in England now back homosexual marriage, so there is no problem at all with the Church of England allowing blessings for homosexual couples married in civil ceremonies in its churches. What it does need to do however is respect its traditions, the sacred choral music, magnificent cathedrals, weddings in country parishes, Midnight Mass at Christmas, which large numbers in this country can relate too. Especially small c Christians. Full on hardline evangelical churches can attract new followers yes but they will also always be more disconnected from the mainstream in this country
The vast majority of Romans backed slavery and torture. I’m not sure what popular approval has to do with anything
Popular approval is irrelevant. Presuming the ideas taught by the church are taken from the bible, I am unsure how they make decisions when they play pick and mix.
Jesus Christ himself never said anything against blessing homosexual couples. The Church of England has correctly allowed that in its churches while reserving holy matrimony for heterosexual couples in lifelong unions
Jesus never said anything against homosexual unions
Jesus did not talk about homosexuality because it was not an issue in Israel. The Law of Moses condemned it absolutely and no one argued with that.
Paul had to talk about it because it was common in the pagan world.
Jesus did not talk about homosexuality because it was not an issue in Israel. The Law of Moses condemned it absolutely and no one argued with that.
Paul had to talk about it because it was common in the pagan world.
Jesus Christ himself never said anything against blessing homosexual couples. The Church of England has correctly allowed that in its churches while reserving holy matrimony for heterosexual couples in lifelong unions
Jesus never said anything against homosexual unions
Unions of consenting homosexual adults in love with each other are nothing comparable with slavery and torture, so don’t make such a repulsive comparison!
Comparison of loving homosexual couples in lifelong unions being blessed to slavery and torture is ludicrous
That wasn’t the comparison. You were arguing that popular approval makes something right. It doesn’t Clearly
That wasn’t the comparison. You were arguing that popular approval makes something right. It doesn’t Clearly
Popular approval is irrelevant. Presuming the ideas taught by the church are taken from the bible, I am unsure how they make decisions when they play pick and mix.
Unions of consenting homosexual adults in love with each other are nothing comparable with slavery and torture, so don’t make such a repulsive comparison!
Comparison of loving homosexual couples in lifelong unions being blessed to slavery and torture is ludicrous
The reason for the church is not to provide a connection to mainstream society!
The Church of England as the established church IS obliged to have a connection to mainstream English society
The Church of England as the established church IS obliged to have a connection to mainstream English society
The vast majority of Romans backed slavery and torture. I’m not sure what popular approval has to do with anything
The reason for the church is not to provide a connection to mainstream society!
Good grief.
The vast majority of people in England now back homosexual marriage, so there is no problem at all with the Church of England allowing blessings for homosexual couples married in civil ceremonies in its churches. What it does need to do however is respect its traditions, the sacred choral music, magnificent cathedrals, weddings in country parishes, Midnight Mass at Christmas, which large numbers in this country can relate too. Especially small c Christians. Full on hardline evangelical churches can attract new followers yes but they will also always be more disconnected from the mainstream in this country
I agree. I think part of the reason is that when people are looking for a new perspective and look to see if the church can provide it, the Anglican church is not sufficiently different from the life from which they want a change/something more.
Well, Jeremy, if declining churches are so “traditional,” what are they doing with “fashionable secular ideas”?
Those two things don’t go together. Why would anyone bother going to church, after all, if fashionable ideas are promoted everywhere, by definition, and often far more effectively (whether for the good or not) than in church? Every religious tradition has a sine qua non, a distinctive way of thinking about and experiencing the world. If it fails to propagate that tradition from one generation to another, then it has lost its raison d’etre.
Like so many other officially religious institutions (including Jewish and other non-Christian ones), the Church of England has tried to translate religion into secular terms–or, to be more specific, reduce religion to some phenomenon that’s more acceptable to scientists or social scientists. Academic theologians notwithstanding, this cannot be done. Even the early Christian “apologists” recognized that there were limits to how far they could go in making Christianity compatible with the alien worldviews of Greeks and Romans. The conflict between particularism and universalism, resulting in some measure of adaptation, continued as Christianity spread from one cultural matrix to another. But the secular matrix is very different from that of any foreign religion.
In my opinion, the main problem is not that so many people now reject the “idea” of God but that so many people today lack the experience of holiness--in many cases, even when they do go to church. Secularized churches preserve a few remnants of tradition (such as its rituals, symbols, art, architecture, costumes, music, choreography, even some portions or versions of scripture), sure, but they replace what had once given meaning to them with more “rational” substitutes (such as moral instruction, group psychotherapy, emotional catharsis, political consciousness-raising or some other form of “community building”). It doesn’t work. It’s fraudulent. And no managerial skill can change that. After well over a century, this much should be clear to everyone. When it comes to religion, people want either the real thing or nothing.
You could argue that “charismatic” churches are not reductive and therefore “traditional.” I’m not so sure. Maybe they’re less reductive or less obviously reductive. But I’ve learned enough about them to suspect that they rely heavily (though not openly or even consciously) on the mechanisms of group psychology, some of which are very manipulative. Its high levels of emotionalism and anti-intellectualism, at any rate, link this movement with the emotionalism and anti-intellectualism that became fashionable in one form of another in the 1960s and 1970s but now pervade all levels of society.
That’s because Jesus is building His Church and the Church of England is not His Church – unlike the Church IN England. And if the Author doesn’t think homosexuality is a sin then he should be in the Wolf Pit.
I agree. I think part of the reason is that when people are looking for a new perspective and look to see if the church can provide it, the Anglican church is not sufficiently different from the life from which they want a change/something more.
Welby is the epitome of whited sepulchres.
His utter abandonment of his flock when he could have made his Church a greater force for good than at practically any time since the Second World War was not the action of a priest but a Godless bureaucrat through and through.
Our cat is a better Christian than Marcus Welby.
Agreed but like a 30 year old horse the CofE should be allowed to die. Cromwell had it right and what’s Oil Wellby but a low rent politico: “You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.”
Rubbish, the Church of England is still the Church most people in England feel closest to, not least as it offers weddings and funerals to all who live in its Parishes
The fact that most people who want to feel close to a church choose the CofE simply shows that it is the most popular; that has nothing to do with the extent to which it does or does not reflect Christianity. It could be that it simply projects what people want Christianity to be.
Jesus Christ himself never opposed homosexual unions
You already said that.
Jesus did not talk about homosexuality because it was not an issue in Israel. The Law of Moses condemned it absolutely and no one argued with that.
Paul had to talk about it because it was common in the pagan world
You already said that.
Jesus did not talk about homosexuality because it was not an issue in Israel. The Law of Moses condemned it absolutely and no one argued with that.
Paul had to talk about it because it was common in the pagan world
Jesus Christ himself never opposed homosexual unions
I am guessing the funeral/marriage thing is a legacy system as its not the same as worshipping.Round here ( Urban London suburb) the Church Of Christ is way the busiest and seems to mainly have African origin worshippers, then the two Mosques, the CofE and local RC are about tied for 4th place. I suppose its different in the countryside.
I live in a rural area that maybe why yes. The nearest Evangelical church is in a town 15 minutes away by car and that only gets a small congregation. Worship in villages and market towns is still dominated by the Church of England and the historic Church of England Parish church, it is different in big cities where there are more choices of church and indeed more mosques, temples etc too. Although Church of England cathedrals in cities still get good attendance for worship
I live in a rural area that maybe why yes. The nearest Evangelical church is in a town 15 minutes away by car and that only gets a small congregation. Worship in villages and market towns is still dominated by the Church of England and the historic Church of England Parish church, it is different in big cities where there are more choices of church and indeed more mosques, temples etc too. Although Church of England cathedrals in cities still get good attendance for worship
The fact that most people who want to feel close to a church choose the CofE simply shows that it is the most popular; that has nothing to do with the extent to which it does or does not reflect Christianity. It could be that it simply projects what people want Christianity to be.
I am guessing the funeral/marriage thing is a legacy system as its not the same as worshipping.Round here ( Urban London suburb) the Church Of Christ is way the busiest and seems to mainly have African origin worshippers, then the two Mosques, the CofE and local RC are about tied for 4th place. I suppose its different in the countryside.
Rubbish, the Church of England is still the Church most people in England feel closest to, not least as it offers weddings and funerals to all who live in its Parishes
Whilst agreeing with every word in the article, mine is a positive comment.
I was directed a few years back to St Paul’s Knightsbridge in London as a place where the clergy and liturgy was entirely inspirational and I have yet to be disappointed.
It is certainly true that the churches whose numbers are increasing are evangelical and hold to rather “old fashioned” doctrines whereas the traditional churches that seek to move with the times and take on board fashionable secular ideas are in continuous decline.
Welby is the epitome of whited sepulchres.
His utter abandonment of his flock when he could have made his Church a greater force for good than at practically any time since the Second World War was not the action of a priest but a Godless bureaucrat through and through.
Our cat is a better Christian than Marcus Welby.
Agreed but like a 30 year old horse the CofE should be allowed to die. Cromwell had it right and what’s Oil Wellby but a low rent politico: “You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go.”
Whilst agreeing with every word in the article, mine is a positive comment.
I was directed a few years back to St Paul’s Knightsbridge in London as a place where the clergy and liturgy was entirely inspirational and I have yet to be disappointed.
“Ideologically, Welby can be what you want him to be.” Says the author.
So by that description Welby is weak, insincere, and has no conviction. And from his insecure dictates and his wokery, it certainly seems so. So how can Giles possibly then say this?
“…the Church of England has never felt weaker. It’s not his fault…”
Oh really? Well, if not the archbishop of Canterbury then who might be regarded as responsible for the well-being of the church of England?
I am not one of your “flock” “Shepherd Giles”. But let me tell you this. You lot are going to need to get a pair of balls between your legs, some fire in your belly, and some conviction in your minds, if you want the Anglican church to even exist in 10 years time.
“And 11 years in the oil industry clearly shaped his thinking about organisational structures. ”
From Wikipedia, Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy:
In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.
“On the front line, in the parishes, it feels like the Archbishop doesn’t much care about us.”
QED
Heh
I have heard this very true observation before but did not realise it had acquired the status of Pournelle’s Law.
Never heard this before but it explains a lot of what is happening right now and not just in the church.
Heh
I have heard this very true observation before but did not realise it had acquired the status of Pournelle’s Law.
Never heard this before but it explains a lot of what is happening right now and not just in the church.
“And 11 years in the oil industry clearly shaped his thinking about organisational structures. ”
From Wikipedia, Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy:
In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals that the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely.
“On the front line, in the parishes, it feels like the Archbishop doesn’t much care about us.”
QED
Closing the church doors when the congregation were in their hour of need so that the clergy could hide behind the Church’s wealth was disgraceful.
COVID killed the Church?
The Covid Tyranny was satanic.
Funny.
The Covid Tyranny was satanic.
Funny.
COVID killed the Church?
Closing the church doors when the congregation were in their hour of need so that the clergy could hide behind the Church’s wealth was disgraceful.
So, “he’s not a people person”, “he’s too managerial”, he laughs but is only pretending. How did he get through the first interview, let alone get the job?
The Church is riddled with confusion. Our local Church has a Bishop who spits nasty words against the the Tories whenever she is speaking to groups – she has been sent home for a few months on sick leave. This Archbishop in the article seems to have gone astray.
This supports my view that the local churches have become completely separated from the idea of religion. In my experience, local churches have a group of mainly 60-80 years-old people who help in the community. These people do great things ranging from visiting the sick to distributing food parcels to making a cup of tea in the hall for lonely (and cold) people. You don’t have to think too hard to see why older people are more involved.
Meanwhile, instructions come from HQ to concentrate on young people. The vicars now play guitars and the churches have screens instead of hymn books. Of course, the regulars can’t see the screens properly so, having wasted the money, hymn books are still used. This concentration on young people is like the BBC. The customers are mainly old people but the management initiative concentrates on the young. Why would young people want to go to church or sit indoors watching television?
Yes, the congregation at my church (myself included ) is largely made up of people aged between 60 and 80 – and we try to do the great things you have indicated. But fortunately we have traditionalist clergy and a loyal choir – so no screens or guitars are inflicted on us. And in Chichester we have a sound Bishop.
Yes, the congregation at my church (myself included ) is largely made up of people aged between 60 and 80 – and we try to do the great things you have indicated. But fortunately we have traditionalist clergy and a loyal choir – so no screens or guitars are inflicted on us. And in Chichester we have a sound Bishop.
So, “he’s not a people person”, “he’s too managerial”, he laughs but is only pretending. How did he get through the first interview, let alone get the job?
The Church is riddled with confusion. Our local Church has a Bishop who spits nasty words against the the Tories whenever she is speaking to groups – she has been sent home for a few months on sick leave. This Archbishop in the article seems to have gone astray.
This supports my view that the local churches have become completely separated from the idea of religion. In my experience, local churches have a group of mainly 60-80 years-old people who help in the community. These people do great things ranging from visiting the sick to distributing food parcels to making a cup of tea in the hall for lonely (and cold) people. You don’t have to think too hard to see why older people are more involved.
Meanwhile, instructions come from HQ to concentrate on young people. The vicars now play guitars and the churches have screens instead of hymn books. Of course, the regulars can’t see the screens properly so, having wasted the money, hymn books are still used. This concentration on young people is like the BBC. The customers are mainly old people but the management initiative concentrates on the young. Why would young people want to go to church or sit indoors watching television?
What kind of archbishop forbade clergy to pray, alone, in their own churches? One whose brain has too many pointy bits.
What kind of archbishop forbade clergy to pray, alone, in their own churches? One whose brain has too many pointy bits.
But what has God got to do with any of this? Sounds like a flippant question but early on in the Covid ‘pandemic’ it struck me – someone who hasn’t stepped inside a church for years – that the only thing standing between me, Hendrik Mentz, and a totalising dystopian future ruled by the algorithm, is community founded on the sacred, embodied in the mystery of Christ. I’m more convinced today than ever. But this essay and the earlier by Thompson (Ten terrible years of Pope Francis) have shattered that illusion. (The only gleanable hope was you kept your church open.) It’s now or never (returning to the original question) otherwise I fear it’s tickets for humanity.
I have to disagree with your conclusion. It’s my very considered view that only once humanity has weaned itself away from belief in a divinity will we ever start to get to grips with our true nature. Concepts of ‘sin’ and suchlike are beyond useless to deal with the reality, and only serve to hinder a proper and full exploration of what it truly means to be part of an animal species that developed consciousness.
This also requires the kind of examination of ourselves that today’s article on child abuse demands. Giles mentions that one of the mentors of the Archbishop (or was it his mentor?) was found to have abused young boys. You also refer to the recent article on the Pope, which primarily involved the amount of corruption and abuse within the Church of Rome. Clearly, ‘holiness’ is another hollow concept which needs to be shown for what it is.
Belief in a god has created the current condition, whereby loss of that belief isn’t the problem, but rather the realisation that we humans are very good at fooling ourselves, and that this gets developed into systems and hierarchies. Enough is enough.
Hi Steve. I do not speak of belief or anything ‘out there’ separate from me. I speak of totality, as in God. I speak of relationship, of community, the sacred and of mystery embodied in the Christ who for me symbolises the suffering of every man, woman and child – also sacrifice, the unfathomable, and whatever flows therefrom. Any epistemology that doesn’t account for and embrace the foregoing, falls short, for me. As for your reference to ‘sin’, that for me requires acknowledging, living, and integrating the darkness within me; and you doing very much the same yourself.
I think you make some very
good points about the need for community; however in the faux multi cultural paradise that is the UK there is no ‘community’, just disparate groups whose views are frequently opposed to one another.
I also do not think it is possible to ‘reverse engineer’ Christian community via a return to the fold, so to speak.
The brutal truth is that most of the nation couldn’t give a damn what the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks. I would be surprised if more than half the country even knows who he is.
Jeff, I also don’t believe reverse-engineering an existing Christian flock would work, as it seems (judging by the two essays in question) there’s little there apart from a significant number of shallow, frightened, petty or evil members of a clergy or priesthood pursuing their own ends. And because the church is not about God or Christ it has nothing to offer humanity at grave irreversible risk. So to repeat: it’s now or never. The church must get its act together and I believe community will be born.
Yes exactly this – community is something that emerges, that’s what I meant to say.
I often feel we are at the end of one thing and the beginning of another and can’t go back , but I don’t trust my instincts, largely because I’m older and grouchier than I once was but also because I think that people have always felt like this.
That said I mourn the emptiness and disuse of English country churches – many of them are precious beyond measure even if, like me, you find it hard to have faith.
They also remain one of the few places left in our noisy world you can find some peace.
Jeff, your lamentation goes to the heart of the issue as I understand it, namely, that Christian clergy and the priesthood failed to understand, cherish and preserve that which manifests as stone, carvings, glassware, art, silence and presence in churches bequeathed us. For me this speaks of betrayal. It speaks of sin. It’s tragedy. So instead of feeling grouchy we (the potential or, by now, lost laity) should feel and express our rage.
Deleted, as this repeats the above reply.
Jeff, your lamentation goes to the heart of the issue as I understand it, namely, that Christian clergy and the priesthood failed to understand, cherish and preserve that which manifests as stone, carvings, glassware, art, silence and presence in churches bequeathed us. For me this speaks of betrayal. It speaks of sin. It’s tragedy. So instead of feeling grouchy we (the potential or, by now, lost laity) should feel and express our rage.
Deleted, as this repeats the above reply.
Yes exactly this – community is something that emerges, that’s what I meant to say.
I often feel we are at the end of one thing and the beginning of another and can’t go back , but I don’t trust my instincts, largely because I’m older and grouchier than I once was but also because I think that people have always felt like this.
That said I mourn the emptiness and disuse of English country churches – many of them are precious beyond measure even if, like me, you find it hard to have faith.
They also remain one of the few places left in our noisy world you can find some peace.
Jeff, I also don’t believe reverse-engineering an existing Christian flock would work, as it seems (judging by the two essays in question) there’s little there apart from a significant number of shallow, frightened, petty or evil members of a clergy or priesthood pursuing their own ends. And because the church is not about God or Christ it has nothing to offer humanity at grave irreversible risk. So to repeat: it’s now or never. The church must get its act together and I believe community will be born.
I speak of epistemology too, and the human tendency to try to grab hold of something – anything – rather than face up to our natures. I’ve no issue with the historical teachings of Jesus, but that’s all they are. There’s no divinity, and if there were it wouldn’t make any difference.
If a god could be proven to exist, i’d not want to worship. Quite simply, any god that required worshipping wouldn’t be worthy of being a god.
Our humanity is all we have. We’re conscious animals. When words such as “unfathomable” are used, i say, try harder. That’s not to confuse with spirituality. I’m immersed in it, as a human being. That’s what we should be embracing, not some invented externality. The universe has more beauty than we can yet see, but we can only try, and take our place within it.
No god, just humanity. Let’s find out who we really are. There doesn’t have to be a “why”. It’s an unnecessary question which prevents understanding.
We all have something that is our highest good. It may be family, friends, nation, a philosophy, or the divine. If our highest good is of human origin, we are giving our ‘worship’ to a flawed thing; only if the divine is worshipped are we setting our highest good on something that is flawless.
That’s interesting, because in your former comment you described the notion of sin as being ‘worse than useless.’ Yet that notion is precisely an attempt to ‘face up to our natures.’ If you investiagted the meaning of it, you might understand it better.
Undoubtedly true, but no Christian would content that God ‘requires worshipping.’ There are a lot of different conceptions of ‘god.’ Generalisations don’t help much in this area.
You seem very sure about that. I do often find that atheists are much less questioning, and much more certain, in a kind of aggressive, left-brainy way, than religious people.
You don’t think anything is unfathomable? You think human reason can work everything out? That science is a method capable of dissecting all of reality? Good luck!
In all seriousness: given that 87% of the world’s people are religious, and virtually 100% of our ancestors have been forevere, do you not think there is a chance they’re seeing something you’re not? Or were/are they all just deluded fools?
“If a god could be proven to exist, I’d not want to worship. Quite simply, any god that required worshipping wouldn’t be worthy of being a god.”
I didn’t bite the first time, but I will now from a Jewish point of view. In that context, the problem is not an intellectual one of belief or disbelief in God. Rather, it’s a moral one of fidelity or infidelity to the covenant between God and Israel.
In The Trial of God, Elie Wiesel tells the story of Jewish inmates in a Nazi death camp. One night, they decide to set up a traditional rabbinical court (beth din) and put God on trial for abandoning the covenant–that is, for not rescuing the victims of evil. The deliberate through the night. After many hours of hearing arguments on both sides of the case, they reach a decision. They declare that God is guilty as charged. At dawn, nonetheless, someone rises and says, “And now, let us pray.”
This is a traditional rabbinical tale, a midrash, not a liberal or secular one. In fact, Wiesel drew on his own Hasidic roots in writing it. I’ll try to sum up the commentaries that I’ve read about it and centuries of similar tales.
For traditional Jews, God is not necessarily an almighty being who lives in some other world but occasionally breaks into our own world and intervenes in history to save the good and punish the evil. That’s one strand of the biblical tradition, to be sure, but not the only one and probably not the earliest.
As for the divine covenant, it binds both parties. Just as we can prove ourselves unworthy or unreliable, so can God. But the relationship itself is both intimate and reciprocal. We need God, but God needs us (to complete the work of creation). We can suffer, but so can God.
The story offers no cognitive answer to the problem of suffering. Why do the rabbis call for morning prayer after finding God guilty of abandoning the covenant? Because how else could they go on living in a world that includes death camps? At the heart of this tale is God’s presence in the midst of suffering just as it is in the midst of joy. God is with us and even suffers with us. That idea brought no consolation to most victims of the sho’ah, but it worked for the Hassidim, who by now have the only Jewish communities with no need to worry about “continuity.”
This kind of God is–or should be–familiar to Christians, of course, but it originated centuries earlier than Christianity. Consider the biblical Job. Like the rabbis, he discovers that there is no such thing as a rational or moral answer to the problem of undeserved suffering. His “friends,” who insist that Job must have done something very wrong to have been punished so severely are, as God says, a bunch of fools and pious hypocrites. But Job receives another kind of answer, a non-cognitive one, in the context of a theophany (that is, the direct experience of holiness).
Thank you.
Thank you.
“If a god could be proven to exist, I’d not want to worship. Quite simply, any god that required worshipping wouldn’t be worthy of being a god.”
I didn’t bite the first time, but I will now from a Jewish point of view. In that context, the problem is not an intellectual one of belief or disbelief in God. Rather, it’s a moral one of fidelity or infidelity to the covenant between God and Israel.
In The Trial of God, Elie Wiesel tells the story of Jewish inmates in a Nazi death camp. One night, they decide to set up a traditional rabbinical court (beth din) and put God on trial for abandoning the covenant–that is, for not rescuing the victims of evil. The deliberate through the night. After many hours of hearing arguments on both sides of the case, they reach a decision. They declare that God is guilty as charged. At dawn, nonetheless, someone rises and says, “And now, let us pray.”
This is a traditional rabbinical tale, a midrash, not a liberal or secular one. In fact, Wiesel drew on his own Hasidic roots in writing it. I’ll try to sum up the commentaries that I’ve read about it and centuries of similar tales.
For traditional Jews, God is not necessarily an almighty being who lives in some other world but occasionally breaks into our own world and intervenes in history to save the good and punish the evil. That’s one strand of the biblical tradition, to be sure, but not the only one and probably not the earliest.
As for the divine covenant, it binds both parties. Just as we can prove ourselves unworthy or unreliable, so can God. But the relationship itself is both intimate and reciprocal. We need God, but God needs us (to complete the work of creation). We can suffer, but so can God.
The story offers no cognitive answer to the problem of suffering. Why do the rabbis call for morning prayer after finding God guilty of abandoning the covenant? Because how else could they go on living in a world that includes death camps? At the heart of this tale is God’s presence in the midst of suffering just as it is in the midst of joy. God is with us and even suffers with us. That idea brought no consolation to most victims of the sho’ah, but it worked for the Hassidim, who by now have the only Jewish communities with no need to worry about “continuity.”
This kind of God is–or should be–familiar to Christians, of course, but it originated centuries earlier than Christianity. Consider the biblical Job. Like the rabbis, he discovers that there is no such thing as a rational or moral answer to the problem of undeserved suffering. His “friends,” who insist that Job must have done something very wrong to have been punished so severely are, as God says, a bunch of fools and pious hypocrites. But Job receives another kind of answer, a non-cognitive one, in the context of a theophany (that is, the direct experience of holiness).
Steve, you cover much ground, so out of deference, here goes: not sure where you get the idea I’m ‘grabbing on to anything’ or ‘not facing my nature’. You would need to explain to your readers what ‘spirituality’ stripped of the divine means to you. Nowhere do I speak of a ‘god’ or even God requiring worship. Instead, if you read for meaning you will understand my sense is of God (as earlier defined) manifesting. I embrace totally (my understanding of) your sense of ‘humanity’ and ‘consciousness’ but am puzzled how to ‘try harder’ when faced with the ‘unfathomable’. Why would anyone want to? For me far rather sense awe; as you most likely do experiencing in a ‘universe (which) has more beauty than we can yet see, but we can only try, and take our place within it’. Your closing statement (‘No god, just humanity’) is palpably false given the immensity of the universe. Finally, I’m not asking ‘why’; only pointing out my sense of ‘that’. Hope I covered all your points.
Post script:
Hendrik, i wasn’t referring specifically to yourself in my comment about “grabbing onto anything”, rather about a human tendency which is obvious in most organised religions. It’s that tendency that in my view also encourages some (specifically males) to take advantage of others by preaching to that tendency. It’s a power dynamic, and within such, abuse can not only take place but prosper. Or the apparent need to take the lives of others in ‘the cause’ of one’s god.
When will we stop doing this? All the quotes in the world are just that – thoughts of others on the matter. They’re interesting (i’ve read them all before, and more) and some are beautiful, but where have they taken us? It’s time to unblock the dam that religious belief imposes between us and our understanding of ourselves. I fully understand where the concept of ‘sin’ comes from, thanks, and i’m seeking to move the debate beyond its limitations. Nothing original there, by the way.
“It’s time to unblock the dam that religious belief imposes between us and our understanding of ourselves.”
What if, in your earnest investigations, you find that ourselves can only really be understood through the medium of faith in something divine that transcends our individual temporal selves?
Please come back and tell us what you find.
“It’s time to unblock the dam that religious belief imposes between us and our understanding of ourselves.”
What if, in your earnest investigations, you find that ourselves can only really be understood through the medium of faith in something divine that transcends our individual temporal selves?
Please come back and tell us what you find.
Exactly so, Horatio. Trouble is, you dream of nothing. I dream of the Kingdom of God, and try to work for it. It is good to know we do not know everything in heaven or on earth.
Hendrik, i wasn’t referring specifically to yourself in my comment about “grabbing onto anything”, rather about a human tendency which is obvious in most organised religions. It’s that tendency that in my view also encourages some (specifically males) to take advantage of others by preaching to that tendency. It’s a power dynamic, and within such, abuse can not only take place but prosper. Or the apparent need to take the lives of others in ‘the cause’ of one’s god.
When will we stop doing this? All the quotes in the world are just that – thoughts of others on the matter. They’re interesting (i’ve read them all before, and more) and some are beautiful, but where have they taken us? It’s time to unblock the dam that religious belief imposes between us and our understanding of ourselves. I fully understand where the concept of ‘sin’ comes from, thanks, and i’m seeking to move the debate beyond its limitations. Nothing original there, by the way.
Exactly so, Horatio. Trouble is, you dream of nothing. I dream of the Kingdom of God, and try to work for it. It is good to know we do not know everything in heaven or on earth.
We’re selfish mobile blobs of blood, and gore who are very prone to greed, fear, and sloth. We’ve had a world without G*d before. Back then people worshipped rocks and animals or practiced human sacrifice, the rich kept slaves, primitives mutilated themselves, and nations precipitated genocide against each other. That’s who we are, I’m afraid: selfish organisms who have enough intelligence to rationalize evil behaviors. No amount of education or technology will ever change that.
The ancient Jews knew this in their own fashion which is why much of the Old Testament is filled with stories of biblical Israel’s rise and fall. Out of all the ancient gods in existence the G*d of Adam and Eve was the only one who made Man in his image, instead of a mere slave or plaything. When living according to G*d’s laws the ancient Israelis became great. When they became too comfortable and enlightened to need G*d they fell back into ancient and primitive ways. Eventually their vices overcame then and they proved too weak and decadent to resist hostile takeover by neighboring nations.
Maybe this is the point we are at in the West today, especially where freedom is perceived as the ability to fulfill every sexual urge and whim.
-Samson Agonistes by John Milton
I don’t think people worship god because he requires it; if there is any requirement it is that people require to worship which is why most people worship something whether it is a pop idol, their wealth, car, status, partner or things they envy.
We all have something that is our highest good. It may be family, friends, nation, a philosophy, or the divine. If our highest good is of human origin, we are giving our ‘worship’ to a flawed thing; only if the divine is worshipped are we setting our highest good on something that is flawless.
That’s interesting, because in your former comment you described the notion of sin as being ‘worse than useless.’ Yet that notion is precisely an attempt to ‘face up to our natures.’ If you investiagted the meaning of it, you might understand it better.
Undoubtedly true, but no Christian would content that God ‘requires worshipping.’ There are a lot of different conceptions of ‘god.’ Generalisations don’t help much in this area.
You seem very sure about that. I do often find that atheists are much less questioning, and much more certain, in a kind of aggressive, left-brainy way, than religious people.
You don’t think anything is unfathomable? You think human reason can work everything out? That science is a method capable of dissecting all of reality? Good luck!
In all seriousness: given that 87% of the world’s people are religious, and virtually 100% of our ancestors have been forevere, do you not think there is a chance they’re seeing something you’re not? Or were/are they all just deluded fools?
Steve, you cover much ground, so out of deference, here goes: not sure where you get the idea I’m ‘grabbing on to anything’ or ‘not facing my nature’. You would need to explain to your readers what ‘spirituality’ stripped of the divine means to you. Nowhere do I speak of a ‘god’ or even God requiring worship. Instead, if you read for meaning you will understand my sense is of God (as earlier defined) manifesting. I embrace totally (my understanding of) your sense of ‘humanity’ and ‘consciousness’ but am puzzled how to ‘try harder’ when faced with the ‘unfathomable’. Why would anyone want to? For me far rather sense awe; as you most likely do experiencing in a ‘universe (which) has more beauty than we can yet see, but we can only try, and take our place within it’. Your closing statement (‘No god, just humanity’) is palpably false given the immensity of the universe. Finally, I’m not asking ‘why’; only pointing out my sense of ‘that’. Hope I covered all your points.
Post script:
We’re selfish mobile blobs of blood, and gore who are very prone to greed, fear, and sloth. We’ve had a world without G*d before. Back then people worshipped rocks and animals or practiced human sacrifice, the rich kept slaves, primitives mutilated themselves, and nations precipitated genocide against each other. That’s who we are, I’m afraid: selfish organisms who have enough intelligence to rationalize evil behaviors. No amount of education or technology will ever change that.
The ancient Jews knew this in their own fashion which is why much of the Old Testament is filled with stories of biblical Israel’s rise and fall. Out of all the ancient gods in existence the G*d of Adam and Eve was the only one who made Man in his image, instead of a mere slave or plaything. When living according to G*d’s laws the ancient Israelis became great. When they became too comfortable and enlightened to need G*d they fell back into ancient and primitive ways. Eventually their vices overcame then and they proved too weak and decadent to resist hostile takeover by neighboring nations.
Maybe this is the point we are at in the West today, especially where freedom is perceived as the ability to fulfill every sexual urge and whim.
-Samson Agonistes by John Milton
I don’t think people worship god because he requires it; if there is any requirement it is that people require to worship which is why most people worship something whether it is a pop idol, their wealth, car, status, partner or things they envy.
I think you make some very
good points about the need for community; however in the faux multi cultural paradise that is the UK there is no ‘community’, just disparate groups whose views are frequently opposed to one another.
I also do not think it is possible to ‘reverse engineer’ Christian community via a return to the fold, so to speak.
The brutal truth is that most of the nation couldn’t give a damn what the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks. I would be surprised if more than half the country even knows who he is.
I speak of epistemology too, and the human tendency to try to grab hold of something – anything – rather than face up to our natures. I’ve no issue with the historical teachings of Jesus, but that’s all they are. There’s no divinity, and if there were it wouldn’t make any difference.
If a god could be proven to exist, i’d not want to worship. Quite simply, any god that required worshipping wouldn’t be worthy of being a god.
Our humanity is all we have. We’re conscious animals. When words such as “unfathomable” are used, i say, try harder. That’s not to confuse with spirituality. I’m immersed in it, as a human being. That’s what we should be embracing, not some invented externality. The universe has more beauty than we can yet see, but we can only try, and take our place within it.
No god, just humanity. Let’s find out who we really are. There doesn’t have to be a “why”. It’s an unnecessary question which prevents understanding.
I would like to stress that Thomson’s article on the Pope is from someone who has a rather large chip on his shoulder. He may be right, but it is difficult to find people as dismissing of Francis as he is.
Fsir point, but there’s more than enough evidence for the jury (as it were) to still be out.
My main point isn’t about individuals though, but rather beliefs among humans, whereby such systems arise.
Because George Pell upped and died?
Fsir point, but there’s more than enough evidence for the jury (as it were) to still be out.
My main point isn’t about individuals though, but rather beliefs among humans, whereby such systems arise.
Because George Pell upped and died?
We shouldn’t blame God for the sins of the world. They are (natural disasters apart) largely the fault of human beings. The point of a deity is to have an objective set of values against which one measures one’s own conduct. Mankind will always follow the path of least resistance and then attempt to justify it. We ignore God’s guiding star at our peril.
My point is precisely that ‘sins’ are part of the human condition, but that we shouldn’t ascribe that concept to them, since it’s primarily based upon a religious interpretation of the world which just isn’t helpful.
It’s time for humanity to move on beyond these old concepts, and only by doing so will we finally be able to recognise ourselves and stop using concepts such a god to hide behind, under the guise of “an objective set of values” which are anything but.
Just as all the bad things that happen are human, so are all the good things, and there’s plenty of those of course. So we should credit ourselves where due, look more closely and honestly about what we’re doing wrong, and continue to strive to improve our lot. No need for a concept of god in any of this.
My point is precisely that ‘sins’ are part of the human condition, but that we shouldn’t ascribe that concept to them, since it’s primarily based upon a religious interpretation of the world which just isn’t helpful.
It’s time for humanity to move on beyond these old concepts, and only by doing so will we finally be able to recognise ourselves and stop using concepts such a god to hide behind, under the guise of “an objective set of values” which are anything but.
Just as all the bad things that happen are human, so are all the good things, and there’s plenty of those of course. So we should credit ourselves where due, look more closely and honestly about what we’re doing wrong, and continue to strive to improve our lot. No need for a concept of god in any of this.
Holiness is not a “concept,” Steve, but an experience. But I’ve discussed some of this in another comment.
Well said, Steve. I do not understand your downvotes.
Boy you really are lost. Repent before you disappear into eternity.
What is our true nature and what is the evidence for your answer?
Hi Steve. I do not speak of belief or anything ‘out there’ separate from me. I speak of totality, as in God. I speak of relationship, of community, the sacred and of mystery embodied in the Christ who for me symbolises the suffering of every man, woman and child – also sacrifice, the unfathomable, and whatever flows therefrom. Any epistemology that doesn’t account for and embrace the foregoing, falls short, for me. As for your reference to ‘sin’, that for me requires acknowledging, living, and integrating the darkness within me; and you doing very much the same yourself.
I would like to stress that Thomson’s article on the Pope is from someone who has a rather large chip on his shoulder. He may be right, but it is difficult to find people as dismissing of Francis as he is.
We shouldn’t blame God for the sins of the world. They are (natural disasters apart) largely the fault of human beings. The point of a deity is to have an objective set of values against which one measures one’s own conduct. Mankind will always follow the path of least resistance and then attempt to justify it. We ignore God’s guiding star at our peril.
Holiness is not a “concept,” Steve, but an experience. But I’ve discussed some of this in another comment.
Well said, Steve. I do not understand your downvotes.
Boy you really are lost. Repent before you disappear into eternity.
What is our true nature and what is the evidence for your answer?
I have to disagree with your conclusion. It’s my very considered view that only once humanity has weaned itself away from belief in a divinity will we ever start to get to grips with our true nature. Concepts of ‘sin’ and suchlike are beyond useless to deal with the reality, and only serve to hinder a proper and full exploration of what it truly means to be part of an animal species that developed consciousness.
This also requires the kind of examination of ourselves that today’s article on child abuse demands. Giles mentions that one of the mentors of the Archbishop (or was it his mentor?) was found to have abused young boys. You also refer to the recent article on the Pope, which primarily involved the amount of corruption and abuse within the Church of Rome. Clearly, ‘holiness’ is another hollow concept which needs to be shown for what it is.
Belief in a god has created the current condition, whereby loss of that belief isn’t the problem, but rather the realisation that we humans are very good at fooling ourselves, and that this gets developed into systems and hierarchies. Enough is enough.
But what has God got to do with any of this? Sounds like a flippant question but early on in the Covid ‘pandemic’ it struck me – someone who hasn’t stepped inside a church for years – that the only thing standing between me, Hendrik Mentz, and a totalising dystopian future ruled by the algorithm, is community founded on the sacred, embodied in the mystery of Christ. I’m more convinced today than ever. But this essay and the earlier by Thompson (Ten terrible years of Pope Francis) have shattered that illusion. (The only gleanable hope was you kept your church open.) It’s now or never (returning to the original question) otherwise I fear it’s tickets for humanity.
If the Church of England has never felt weaker, perhaps it is because it is abandoning its fundamental teachings.
If the Church of England has never felt weaker, perhaps it is because it is abandoning its fundamental teachings.
There is a certain amount of ‘shop talk’ you expect among professional clergy, as their worldly calling and their spiritual calling intermingle in uncomfortable ways.
That said, it tells you all you really need to know about the current state of the Church of England that its participants think this kind of article is the right way to analyze it. This article has the same tone and approach as dozens of similar articles written every month about the leaders of major secular institutions, a university or charity or business or museum or govt dept. It is asking about personality, ‘management style,’ organizational questions, environmental headwinds, etc.
For any religious institution – from jihadists to the Holy See to shop-front churches in rural America or Africa – the first point of analysis must always be a religious one. What do these people believe and why? And how does their belief distinguish how they live from others in their societies? And do those distinctives enrich their lives or impoverish them?
What does the Church of England believe now? Anglicanism is dying precisely because religion is not and can never be a “big tent” affair. It is the essential relationship between man and eternity, between being and not-being, between shame and redemption, etc. etc. It can only transmute from a singular experience to “organized religion” under two conditions: political force, or collective agreement. Neither of those conditions obtain for the C of E today.
The Church of England has always been big tent, offering weddings, blessings, baptisms and funerals to all who live in its Parishes
Of course – and once there was the politico-cultural will to sustain such a social presence without getting too bothered about who believed what. There were plenty of non-religious purposes served by this ubiquitous religious institution. But that hasn’t been the case for a long time, and without them, the big tent will inevitably fold.
Unless, of course, there’s a revival of belief. Who’s game?
Wrong, plenty still get married or buried in my local Parish Church, including those who aren’t regular church goers. At Mothers’ Day on Sunday it was packed as it is for Christmas and Easter
Yes it is, our local church is regularly holding weddings and funerals and was full last Mother’s Day
Not true at all, my local Parish church is regularly full for weddings, funerals and baptisms and was full last Sunday for Mothering Sunday too
Anecdotal evidence? So, based on your local parish church, you believe the C of E is a healthy and robust institution? <<shrug>>
In rural areas and market towns like where I live yes, worship is still centred around the historic Church of England Parish Church, as are weddings, funerals etc. In big cities apart from cathedrals there is more competition as more Baptist, Pentecostal and Roman Catholic churches and mosques and temples too
He asked if you thought it was robust….and shrugged. The consensus of pretty well every single person here, even Giles Fraser, is that the CoE is buggered. This is a postmortem. God can raise the dead. But I wonder why he would bother…which is a shame because as a cradle Quaker turned atheist turned pagan turned Catholic….I still love Anglican hymns best. But unless people like Giles Fraser show a little courage and understand that the church is there to form people not the other way around….it is buggered
He asked if you thought it was robust….and shrugged. The consensus of pretty well every single person here, even Giles Fraser, is that the CoE is buggered. This is a postmortem. God can raise the dead. But I wonder why he would bother…which is a shame because as a cradle Quaker turned atheist turned pagan turned Catholic….I still love Anglican hymns best. But unless people like Giles Fraser show a little courage and understand that the church is there to form people not the other way around….it is buggered
In rural areas and market towns like where I live yes, worship is still centred around the historic Church of England Parish Church, as are weddings, funerals etc. In big cities apart from cathedrals there is more competition as more Baptist, Pentecostal and Roman Catholic churches and mosques and temples too
Anecdotal evidence? So, based on your local parish church, you believe the C of E is a healthy and robust institution? <<shrug>>
Wrong, plenty still get married or buried in my local Parish Church, including those who aren’t regular church goers. At Mothers’ Day on Sunday it was packed as it is for Christmas and Easter
Yes it is, our local church is regularly holding weddings and funerals and was full last Mother’s Day
Not true at all, my local Parish church is regularly full for weddings, funerals and baptisms and was full last Sunday for Mothering Sunday too
Of course – and once there was the politico-cultural will to sustain such a social presence without getting too bothered about who believed what. There were plenty of non-religious purposes served by this ubiquitous religious institution. But that hasn’t been the case for a long time, and without them, the big tent will inevitably fold.
Unless, of course, there’s a revival of belief. Who’s game?
The Church of England has always been big tent, offering weddings, blessings, baptisms and funerals to all who live in its Parishes
There is a certain amount of ‘shop talk’ you expect among professional clergy, as their worldly calling and their spiritual calling intermingle in uncomfortable ways.
That said, it tells you all you really need to know about the current state of the Church of England that its participants think this kind of article is the right way to analyze it. This article has the same tone and approach as dozens of similar articles written every month about the leaders of major secular institutions, a university or charity or business or museum or govt dept. It is asking about personality, ‘management style,’ organizational questions, environmental headwinds, etc.
For any religious institution – from jihadists to the Holy See to shop-front churches in rural America or Africa – the first point of analysis must always be a religious one. What do these people believe and why? And how does their belief distinguish how they live from others in their societies? And do those distinctives enrich their lives or impoverish them?
What does the Church of England believe now? Anglicanism is dying precisely because religion is not and can never be a “big tent” affair. It is the essential relationship between man and eternity, between being and not-being, between shame and redemption, etc. etc. It can only transmute from a singular experience to “organized religion” under two conditions: political force, or collective agreement. Neither of those conditions obtain for the C of E today.
“Ideologically, Welby can be what you want him to be.”
It is a tremendous advantage when scaling the greasy pole of promotion, to have no principles whatsoever.
Which explains Welby’s rise.
Can we please get rid and get an actual sincere Christian in the role?
‘Woke’ is anti-Christian, since it is the ideological heir of Marxism – a 19th Century religion in which Man and the State *replace* God. One cannot be Woke and Christian, since that would be a contradiction in terms.
1
Woke is the successor ideology. We either want it to succeed, or we are Christians. There is no middle ground.
1
Woke is the successor ideology. We either want it to succeed, or we are Christians. There is no middle ground.
“Ideologically, Welby can be what you want him to be.”
It is a tremendous advantage when scaling the greasy pole of promotion, to have no principles whatsoever.
Which explains Welby’s rise.
Can we please get rid and get an actual sincere Christian in the role?
‘Woke’ is anti-Christian, since it is the ideological heir of Marxism – a 19th Century religion in which Man and the State *replace* God. One cannot be Woke and Christian, since that would be a contradiction in terms.
Floreat Britannia, floreat Etona. As late as 2016 the heir-but-one to the throne, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Mayor of London and the Prime Minister had all been educated at the same school.
We are led by hang-wringing liberals distraught by their privilege and unable to make tough and unpopular decisions. The country (including the Church of England) is now paying a terrible price. We lost our way in the 1950s for the same reason.
Energy, drive and a renewed focus are desperately needed to arrest this alarming decline.
Both Eden and Macmillan were Etonians.
Both Eden and Macmillan were Etonians.
Floreat Britannia, floreat Etona. As late as 2016 the heir-but-one to the throne, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Mayor of London and the Prime Minister had all been educated at the same school.
We are led by hang-wringing liberals distraught by their privilege and unable to make tough and unpopular decisions. The country (including the Church of England) is now paying a terrible price. We lost our way in the 1950s for the same reason.
Energy, drive and a renewed focus are desperately needed to arrest this alarming decline.
My eldest son was confirmed by Welby, then Bishop of Durham,in a rather splendid ceremony in Durham Cathedral involving blazing bonfires and the first light filtering through the stained glass of the East window and the liberal application of holy oil. He was a very affable and approachable man but I can understand Giles’s assessment.
Managerialism has taken over not just Anglicanism but Methodism that I have been involved in through my wife. The Methodist church is desperate to close churches on economic grounds, although it inevitably sheds much of their congregations. During covid the ministers confined themselves to zooming like Welby. Absurdly they refused to furlough the ministers so a financial hole was blown in church funding and in the aftermath one minister was able to persuade the three churches she covered to close by consulting only those who could be persuaded. Many will say: “so what if they were struggling”. But the closure affected many of the non religious community organisations that used the church premises and weakened further community ties.
The value of the church is as a physical centre to foster the interconnectedness of communities that are not reliant on some specific mutual interest. The idea Methodism can return to its origin in biblical study groups and those eager to hear a sermon unconnected to a physical church simply will not fly.
The Church of England did furlough those staff whom it could. Most Clergy are not employees but are office holders. As such we could not be furloughed.
Could office holders not be furloughed? Did furlough only apply to employees only? An odd distinction if that was the case.
Who could be furloughed was up to the Government and, as far as I know, didn’t apply to any officeholders.
Who could be furloughed was up to the Government and, as far as I know, didn’t apply to any officeholders.
Could office holders not be furloughed? Did furlough only apply to employees only? An odd distinction if that was the case.
Yes, the value of churches is community.
The Church of England did furlough those staff whom it could. Most Clergy are not employees but are office holders. As such we could not be furloughed.
Yes, the value of churches is community.
My eldest son was confirmed by Welby, then Bishop of Durham,in a rather splendid ceremony in Durham Cathedral involving blazing bonfires and the first light filtering through the stained glass of the East window and the liberal application of holy oil. He was a very affable and approachable man but I can understand Giles’s assessment.
Managerialism has taken over not just Anglicanism but Methodism that I have been involved in through my wife. The Methodist church is desperate to close churches on economic grounds, although it inevitably sheds much of their congregations. During covid the ministers confined themselves to zooming like Welby. Absurdly they refused to furlough the ministers so a financial hole was blown in church funding and in the aftermath one minister was able to persuade the three churches she covered to close by consulting only those who could be persuaded. Many will say: “so what if they were struggling”. But the closure affected many of the non religious community organisations that used the church premises and weakened further community ties.
The value of the church is as a physical centre to foster the interconnectedness of communities that are not reliant on some specific mutual interest. The idea Methodism can return to its origin in biblical study groups and those eager to hear a sermon unconnected to a physical church simply will not fly.
I didn’t actually realised that Welby was an OE but I’m hardly surprised; it answers a number of questions.
Facing the greatest challenge of recent times, this Blairite beaurocrat abandoned his flock and withdrew into empty posturing.
I’m not a devout man by any standards but I always derived a certain comfort from the forms of the religion of my upbringing. Deprived of that in a moment of general crisis left me wondering what, if anything the CofE was FOR. This isn’t new; two generations of war veterans made similar comments about the uselessness of CofE chaplains, compared to the RC sort. It’s instructive that the figures of moral authority who emerged from the hellish Japanese camps were as often as not, military rather than religious; Col Toohey and Major Fagan come to mind.
Noel Duckworth was an outstanding exception to your last observation.
True. I had the honour of encountering (I can’t say “meeting” because it was a school occasion) “Padre Noel” and was much impressed. However I can’t help observing that he seems to have been a man of firm principles and highly competitive as well.
So I’ll see your Noel Duckworth and raise you the “Chaplain of Colditz” as unflattering portrayed by Pat Reid and others.
True. I had the honour of encountering (I can’t say “meeting” because it was a school occasion) “Padre Noel” and was much impressed. However I can’t help observing that he seems to have been a man of firm principles and highly competitive as well.
So I’ll see your Noel Duckworth and raise you the “Chaplain of Colditz” as unflattering portrayed by Pat Reid and others.
Noel Duckworth was an outstanding exception to your last observation.
I didn’t actually realised that Welby was an OE but I’m hardly surprised; it answers a number of questions.
Facing the greatest challenge of recent times, this Blairite beaurocrat abandoned his flock and withdrew into empty posturing.
I’m not a devout man by any standards but I always derived a certain comfort from the forms of the religion of my upbringing. Deprived of that in a moment of general crisis left me wondering what, if anything the CofE was FOR. This isn’t new; two generations of war veterans made similar comments about the uselessness of CofE chaplains, compared to the RC sort. It’s instructive that the figures of moral authority who emerged from the hellish Japanese camps were as often as not, military rather than religious; Col Toohey and Major Fagan come to mind.
He certainly cannot read the African, Caribbean and Asian room…..
He certainly cannot read the African, Caribbean and Asian room…..
The picture is absurd. You should never smile broadly while wearing a mitre – it makes you look slightly mad, or like the cat who got the cream, or both. Prelates should cultivate an air of gravitas and solemnity. Take a lesson from the Orthodox clergy.
What beards crawling with microscopic vermin, as seen on Mt Athos for example?
Even better!
Perhaps you need a holiday. Athos would be a good retreat.
I think I would probably fail the entrance requirement test, assuming there still is one.
I think you would pass the basic one, given that your name is Charles – unless, of course, it’s a nom de folie and you’re really Charlotte.
It would have to be Karlos I think.
It would have to be Karlos I think.
I think you would pass the basic one, given that your name is Charles – unless, of course, it’s a nom de folie and you’re really Charlotte.
I think I would probably fail the entrance requirement test, assuming there still is one.
Even better!
Perhaps you need a holiday. Athos would be a good retreat.
Hilarious. “while wearing a mitre and carrying an umbrella” no less.
What beards crawling with microscopic vermin, as seen on Mt Athos for example?
Hilarious. “while wearing a mitre and carrying an umbrella” no less.
The picture is absurd. You should never smile broadly while wearing a mitre – it makes you look slightly mad, or like the cat who got the cream, or both. Prelates should cultivate an air of gravitas and solemnity. Take a lesson from the Orthodox clergy.
Welby made it clear from the beginning that he was attracted to Christianity and to ordained ministry because he saw it primarily as a means of ‘making the world a better place’. You don’t have to be Thomas Aquinas to see that this is the wrong end of the stick, you simply have to read the Gospels.But it does explain why he and many of his colleagues choose to talk and behave as though the first and great commandment is to love one’s neighbour. This, of course, allows them to represent their various ideologies, preoccupations and fashionable mantras as the fulfilment of this precept. But on the actual great commandment, when was the last time you heard any of them even attempt to give guidance to the general public on the perplexing concept of loving God? Productions of Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark have rarely been a success.
Welby made it clear from the beginning that he was attracted to Christianity and to ordained ministry because he saw it primarily as a means of ‘making the world a better place’. You don’t have to be Thomas Aquinas to see that this is the wrong end of the stick, you simply have to read the Gospels.But it does explain why he and many of his colleagues choose to talk and behave as though the first and great commandment is to love one’s neighbour. This, of course, allows them to represent their various ideologies, preoccupations and fashionable mantras as the fulfilment of this precept. But on the actual great commandment, when was the last time you heard any of them even attempt to give guidance to the general public on the perplexing concept of loving God? Productions of Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark have rarely been a success.
Giles’s articles are the most fascinating and thoughtful pieces to be found on UnHerd. Well written, full of insight and usually provocative in a constructive way.
What always amazes me is the intolerance of those who want us to believe there is no God, or that He has moved on. You may want to believe that, I can certainly understand the argument, but why are you so furious with those harmless types who do have faith in something greater than themselves and try to live life guided by the highest standards? I struggle to be kind, tolerant, generous, caring, all those wonderful things, but the sense of there being some greater power, whatever it may be, helps a lot.
It does seem thought that a lot of Bishops and Archbishops do not have much time for that sort of faith, alas.
One can live humanitarian values without believing in the supernatural. One can raise a child to be kind and loving without ever mentioning god. Religion is divisive. If you know something for a fact you don’t need to believe.