The Guardian prides itself on being one of the most Left-leaning and anti-racist news outlets in the English-speaking world. So imagine its embarrassment when, last month, a number of black podcast producers researching the paperâs historic ties to slavery abruptly resigned, alleging they had been victims of âinstitutional racismâ, âeditorial whitenessâ, âmicroaggressions, colourism, bullying, passive-aggressive and obstructive management stylesâ. All of this might smack of progressive excess, but, in reality, it merely reflects an institution incuriously at odds with itself.
Questions about The Guardianâs ties to slavery have been circulating since 2020, when, amid the mediaâs collective spasm of racial conscience following the murder of George Floyd, the Scott Trust announced it would launch an investigation into its history. âWe in the UK need to begin a national debate on reparations for slavery, a crime which heralded the age of capitalism and provided the basis for racism that continues to endanger black life globally,â journalist Amandla Thomas-Johnson wrote in a June 2020 Guardian opinion piece about the toppling of a statue of 17th-century British slaver Edward Colston. A month later, the Scott Trust committed to determining whether the founder of the paper, John Edward Taylor, had profited from slavery. âWe have seen no evidence that Taylor was a slave owner, nor involved in any direct way in the slave trade,â the chairman of the Scott Trust, Alex Graham, told Guardian staff by email at the time. âBut were such evidence to exist, we would want to be open about it.â (Notably, Graham, in using the terms âslave ownerâ and âdirect way,â set a very specific and very high bar for what would be considered information worthy of disclosure.)
The problem is that the results of the investigation, conducted by historian Sheryllynne Haggerty, an âexpert in the history of the transatlantic slave tradeâ, have never been made public. When contacted with questions about what happened to the promised report, Haggerty referred all inquiries to The Guardianâs PR, which has remained silent on the matter. (The Guardian was asked for comment and we were given the stock PR response The Guardian gave following the podcaster’s letter.) But what we do know is this: according to Guardian lore, a business tycoon named John Edward Taylor was inspired to agitate for change after witnessing the 1819 Peterloo Massacre, when over a dozen people were killed in Manchester by government forces as they protested for parliamentary representation. Two years later, Taylor, a young cotton merchant, with the backing of a group of local reformers known at the Little Circle, founded the paper.
âSince 1821 the mission of The Guardian has been to use clarity and imagination to build hope,â The Guardianâs current editor, Katharine Viner, proudly proclaims on the âAbout usâ page of the paperâs website. Part of this founding myth concerns one of the defining social and political issues of the day, slavery, which the Little Circle members, including Taylor, vigorously opposed as a moral affront. âThe Guardian had always hated slavery,â Martin Kettle, an associate editor, wrote in a 2011 apologia on why during the Civil War the paper had vociferously condemned the North while equivocating on the South.
That may be true, but it also presents an incomplete picture. The Manchester Guardian, as the paper was then known, was founded by cotton merchants, including Taylor, who were able to pool the money needed to launch the paper by drawing on their respective fortunes. While none of these men, many of whom were Unitarian Christians, is likely to have engaged in slavery, they didnât just benefit from but depended upon the global slave trade that provided virtually all of the cotton that filled their mills. As Sarah Parker Remond, an African American abolitionist, said upon visiting Manchester in 1859: “When I walk through the streets of Manchester and meet load after load of cotton, I think of those 80,000 cotton plantations on which was grown the $125 million worth of cotton which supply your market, and I remember that not one cent of that money ever reached the hands of the labourers.â
Remond had ample reason for saying this. The relationship between the northwest English cotton industry and the American Southâs slave society was one of mutualism. Of all the cotton in Manchester, 75% of it was sourced from Southern slave plantations. On the eve of the Civil War, Lancashire was importing more than one billion pounds of cotton from the United States per year, about half of the two billion pounds of cotton picked by Southern slaves annually. By buying slave-picked cotton at extremely cheap prices, Manchesterâs cotton industry could use advances in manufacturing to profitably spin the cotton into textiles that were then sold back to the Southern slavers. Instead of trading slaves â a morally messy and economically-risky affair â Manchesterâs liberal elite learned how to trade slave-grown cotton.
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Subscribeâthe Little Circle of Manchester elites believed that the power of democracy, and even of free expression, should be limited to a small elect who were educated and intelligent enough to be entrusted with such power.â
The left never changes – âyou deplorables shut up and listen while we tell you whatâs good for you.â
The “Little Circle of Manchester” syndrome is alive and cloying to this day, exemplified by those in charge at the Whitworth Art Gallery who’ve created something called the Office of Arte Ătil (the pseuds) to “use art for positive social change”.
Condescension Central.
Office of Arte Util. Actually thatâs hilarious, beyond parody.
Office of Arte Util. Actually thatâs hilarious, beyond parody.
I was going to quote the same sentence to the same effect.
They truly are evil people who seem only of seeing virtue in their evil.
I think it’s wrong to characterise them as evil, something they’d be more likely to think about those who don’t subscribe to their world view.
I’d call them misguided, and unaware of the damage they’re doing to the institutions they’ve wheedled their way into.
On the one hand, it’s perfectly true that certain groups in society were woefully under-represented in galleries and making provision for artists with something to contribute from any background can’t be argued against.
What can, and should be disputed at every available opportunity is the belief that art should be used for didactic social purposes. It’s quite simply to fall way short of understanding what great art is about – a never-ending reaching for the human soul at any time in history. It’s telling that they fail to understand that.
I think it’s wrong to characterise them as evil, something they’d be more likely to think about those who don’t subscribe to their world view.
I’d call them misguided, and unaware of the damage they’re doing to the institutions they’ve wheedled their way into.
On the one hand, it’s perfectly true that certain groups in society were woefully under-represented in galleries and making provision for artists with something to contribute from any background can’t be argued against.
What can, and should be disputed at every available opportunity is the belief that art should be used for didactic social purposes. It’s quite simply to fall way short of understanding what great art is about – a never-ending reaching for the human soul at any time in history. It’s telling that they fail to understand that.
Thatâs a bit simplistic. That was the standard view of democracy back then, found in such liberal luminaries as John Stuart Mill. Even today all sides tend to condemn the âmassesâwhen they donât deliver the âcorrectâ results. How do you think the most militant Brexiteers would have reacted if Remain had one? Probably quite like militant Remainers did react, complaining that the people were duped, etc
No doubt true. We all think weâre right, but conservatives tend to empirical thinking. Their guiding star is âdoes it work?â
There canât be much disputing that progressives tend to the theoretical. From Marxism to critical theory, high flown complex theories are applied to social issues. The difficulty understanding the theory is part of the attraction to its proponents, automatically making them part of an elite. The people subjected to the theory are reduced to numbers and the results are always catastrophic for them.
No doubt there are lots of examples where this doesnât apply but, for me, it holds true as a rule of thumb.
No doubt true. We all think weâre right, but conservatives tend to empirical thinking. Their guiding star is âdoes it work?â
There canât be much disputing that progressives tend to the theoretical. From Marxism to critical theory, high flown complex theories are applied to social issues. The difficulty understanding the theory is part of the attraction to its proponents, automatically making them part of an elite. The people subjected to the theory are reduced to numbers and the results are always catastrophic for them.
No doubt there are lots of examples where this doesnât apply but, for me, it holds true as a rule of thumb.
The degree of vileness of any person or institution is measurable by the degree of stridency of their sanctimony. In India, the usurious money lenders are the most overtly religious and by far the most preachy. In the United States, the New York Times and the WaPo are the greatest enablers of the cancel culture while they view the entire world through their biased prisms. Journalism is long dead for these people – it’s simply a function of driving their agenda, no matter how disingenuously.
Beat me to it! Was just going to add: ca change plus ca change.
I was thinking ‘Hoist with their own petard, by gum!’
I was thinking ‘Hoist with their own petard, by gum!’
The fact that the Guardian building has its own dedicated branch of Waitrose kind of says it all, I think.
Yes, the hypocrisy is toe-curling; but then again, is being eligible to vote on the basis of nothing more than the attainment of a certain ageâŠon what is prudent sovereign treasury management and prudent social / community policiesâŠwise and in the best interests of society generally? Particularly when in certain parts the voting licence is given at age 16?
Just because something happens, doesn’t make it right! Quite a few murders take place (even in some places sanctioned by the legal system), does that make it right? I think not!
In a world of moral relativity, it may be right by some.
In a world of moral relativity, it may be right by some.
Once we reach the culmination of our Idiocracy, we might be able to answer that question. Who knows? Perhaps the elite have always been right in that the masses are simply incapable of self government. We’ll see.
Just because something happens, doesn’t make it right! Quite a few murders take place (even in some places sanctioned by the legal system), does that make it right? I think not!
Once we reach the culmination of our Idiocracy, we might be able to answer that question. Who knows? Perhaps the elite have always been right in that the masses are simply incapable of self government. We’ll see.
The “Little Circle of Manchester” syndrome is alive and cloying to this day, exemplified by those in charge at the Whitworth Art Gallery who’ve created something called the Office of Arte Ătil (the pseuds) to “use art for positive social change”.
Condescension Central.
I was going to quote the same sentence to the same effect.
They truly are evil people who seem only of seeing virtue in their evil.
Thatâs a bit simplistic. That was the standard view of democracy back then, found in such liberal luminaries as John Stuart Mill. Even today all sides tend to condemn the âmassesâwhen they donât deliver the âcorrectâ results. How do you think the most militant Brexiteers would have reacted if Remain had one? Probably quite like militant Remainers did react, complaining that the people were duped, etc
The degree of vileness of any person or institution is measurable by the degree of stridency of their sanctimony. In India, the usurious money lenders are the most overtly religious and by far the most preachy. In the United States, the New York Times and the WaPo are the greatest enablers of the cancel culture while they view the entire world through their biased prisms. Journalism is long dead for these people – it’s simply a function of driving their agenda, no matter how disingenuously.
Beat me to it! Was just going to add: ca change plus ca change.
The fact that the Guardian building has its own dedicated branch of Waitrose kind of says it all, I think.
Yes, the hypocrisy is toe-curling; but then again, is being eligible to vote on the basis of nothing more than the attainment of a certain ageâŠon what is prudent sovereign treasury management and prudent social / community policiesâŠwise and in the best interests of society generally? Particularly when in certain parts the voting licence is given at age 16?
âthe Little Circle of Manchester elites believed that the power of democracy, and even of free expression, should be limited to a small elect who were educated and intelligent enough to be entrusted with such power.â
The left never changes – âyou deplorables shut up and listen while we tell you whatâs good for you.â
Next question: why has the Guardian shilled all these years for the Bolsheviks and Maoism, given that the Soviet Union and the Peoples Republic of China were the two biggest and cruelest slave states in history?
Inquiring minds would like to know. Maybe Guardian editor Katharine Viner could help us there.
When Malcom Muggeridge revealed the mass murder caused by famine in the Ukraine in the 1930s he was sacked by The Guardian.
Orwell in his various essays describes the character of the middle class left Wing .In his essay ” Limits to Pessimism ” he says “the shallow self righteousness of the left wing intelligentia”. Orwell’s essay ” The lion and Unicorn ” describe the left wing middle class very well.
The LWMC
“Their negative, querulous attitude
Lack of constructive suggestions
Irresponsible carping
Live in a world of ideas with little contact with physical reality
Flabby pacifists up to 1935.Shrieked fro war 1935 -39 and cooled off when war started
Anti fascist during Spanish Civil war defeatist now
Severance from the common culture of the country
Take their cookery from Paris opinion from Moscow
Ashamed of their own nationality
Consider disgraceful about being English about being English. Snigger at every English institution from horse racing to suet puddings
All through the critical years chipping away at English moral, quasi pacifist, pro Moscow and anti British
Purely negative creatures.”
This is only one essy from 1940, there are far more with similar comments.
I’ve come across that mindset multiple times during my life. Really beggars belief. One such claimed that the caste system in India had been introduced by the English as they were so “class obsessed”. I also found they were often snobs who actively despised the (white) working class.
Question them and they fall apart because their knowledge and understanding is makes a shallow puddle seem deep.
I’ve come across that mindset multiple times during my life. Really beggars belief. One such claimed that the caste system in India had been introduced by the English as they were so “class obsessed”. I also found they were often snobs who actively despised the (white) working class.
Question them and they fall apart because their knowledge and understanding is makes a shallow puddle seem deep.
The Guardian sacked Malcom Muggeridge in the early 1930s for reporting the mass murder caused by starvation in the Ukarine.
What about that Welsh chap, whose name unfortunately escapes me who was later killed/ murdered?
You could have googled it before you posted your comment.
Yes I could, but normally an informed commentator from UnHerd would get there first, but not on this particular occasion apparently.
Jawhol mein fuhrer
Yes I could, but normally an informed commentator from UnHerd would get there first, but not on this particular occasion apparently.
Jawhol mein fuhrer
Gareth jones
Thank you.
Thank you.
You could have googled it before you posted your comment.
Gareth jones
What about that Welsh chap, whose name unfortunately escapes me who was later killed/ murdered?
‘You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs, doncha know’?
When Malcom Muggeridge revealed the mass murder caused by famine in the Ukraine in the 1930s he was sacked by The Guardian.
Orwell in his various essays describes the character of the middle class left Wing .In his essay ” Limits to Pessimism ” he says “the shallow self righteousness of the left wing intelligentia”. Orwell’s essay ” The lion and Unicorn ” describe the left wing middle class very well.
The LWMC
“Their negative, querulous attitude
Lack of constructive suggestions
Irresponsible carping
Live in a world of ideas with little contact with physical reality
Flabby pacifists up to 1935.Shrieked fro war 1935 -39 and cooled off when war started
Anti fascist during Spanish Civil war defeatist now
Severance from the common culture of the country
Take their cookery from Paris opinion from Moscow
Ashamed of their own nationality
Consider disgraceful about being English about being English. Snigger at every English institution from horse racing to suet puddings
All through the critical years chipping away at English moral, quasi pacifist, pro Moscow and anti British
Purely negative creatures.”
This is only one essy from 1940, there are far more with similar comments.
The Guardian sacked Malcom Muggeridge in the early 1930s for reporting the mass murder caused by starvation in the Ukarine.
‘You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs, doncha know’?
Next question: why has the Guardian shilled all these years for the Bolsheviks and Maoism, given that the Soviet Union and the Peoples Republic of China were the two biggest and cruelest slave states in history?
Inquiring minds would like to know. Maybe Guardian editor Katharine Viner could help us there.
The Guardian today is no more responsible for things that happened 180 years ago than any of us are for the Irish Potato Famine in the 1840s. In just the same way that children are not – and should not be – responsible for the decisions and any debts of their parents. The whole concept of hereditary guilt is just wrong. As is punishing a group of people for the actions of individuals (group punishment).
English law has always been quite clear about these matters. We need to fight back against ignorant and misguided people spreading this nonsense.
The only issue I have with the Guardian here is their double standards. If they support hereditary guilt and group punishment (they don’t seem particularly keen on older white men – but I’m not letting it bother me) they can’t be surprised if they eventually get judged against the same “standard”.
I totally agree with you about inherted sins, but, when I first read about the possible slavery links of the Guardian founder, I did rather think “ha, hoisted by your own petard”, and endulged in a little schadenfreude (my bad, I know).
There’s no need to feel bad. Taking pleasure in deceit and hypocrisy being exposed is not schadenfreude, but a sign of virtue.
There’s no need to feel bad. Taking pleasure in deceit and hypocrisy being exposed is not schadenfreude, but a sign of virtue.
Agreed. Those responsible for the trade were the African rulers who sold their own people and the merchants who bought them.
I agree, these African leaders must be considered the first cause. We don’t know what might have happened if said leaders had refused to sell people; it’s possible that the Europeans would have done their own raiding and it’s also possible that they would have just said “dash it all, chaps, let’s go home”, and sailed off into the sunset.
I doubt it , disease would have killed the Europeans.
That was my first thought, but there’s no accounting for what people will do for money; they might have hired locals to do the dirty work. But we’ll never know.
“… thereâs no accounting for what people will do for money”? What happened to the payroll department?
“… thereâs no accounting for what people will do for money”? What happened to the payroll department?
That was my first thought, but there’s no accounting for what people will do for money; they might have hired locals to do the dirty work. But we’ll never know.
Thanks for the chuckle.
Ha! Someone had to pick the cotton.
I doubt it , disease would have killed the Europeans.
Thanks for the chuckle.
Ha! Someone had to pick the cotton.
Hear hear! But why is this not said out loud in the media? And why did Africans not invade, colonise and enslave Europeans? We all know the answer, of course… but no one has the backbone, guts and courage to say so?
Actually northern Africans (Algiers) did capture Christian Slaves(European) in the 18th/19th century⊠the bombardment of Algiers was a famous naval battle when lord Exmouth forced the Bey to release them
Yes, This slave-trade is often forgotten, along with the East African trade into the Middle East and Zanzibar. There were whole villages on the south west coast of England and in Ireland. Robert Davis reckoned that something like one million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 15th and 19th centuries. Small compared with the Atlantic trade, but still significant. In Ireland the little harbour village of Baltimore, County Cork was attacked and. almost all the villagers were taken to a life of slavery in North Africa.
Some historians estimate as many as 17 million people were enslaved on the coast of the Indian Ocean, the Middle East, and North Africa, and c5 million African slaves were transported by Arab slave traders to other parts of the world between 1500 and 1900.
Arab slave traders raided Iceland and eastern Europe for ‘merchandise’; it’s on account of the captured and sold Slavs that we have the word slave. But what I miss in all this hubbub is that it was the British that ended a global curse that had existed as long as humanity.
You forgot about the ancient Jews of the Old Testament, enslaved by the Egyptians.
Arab slave traders raided Iceland and eastern Europe for ‘merchandise’; it’s on account of the captured and sold Slavs that we have the word slave. But what I miss in all this hubbub is that it was the British that ended a global curse that had existed as long as humanity.
You forgot about the ancient Jews of the Old Testament, enslaved by the Egyptians.
Most notably from Baltimore, Co Cork!
âTheyâ must have fetched a handsome price given their unusual colouring!
Yes, This slave-trade is often forgotten, along with the East African trade into the Middle East and Zanzibar. There were whole villages on the south west coast of England and in Ireland. Robert Davis reckoned that something like one million Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and Ottoman Empire between the 15th and 19th centuries. Small compared with the Atlantic trade, but still significant. In Ireland the little harbour village of Baltimore, County Cork was attacked and. almost all the villagers were taken to a life of slavery in North Africa.
Some historians estimate as many as 17 million people were enslaved on the coast of the Indian Ocean, the Middle East, and North Africa, and c5 million African slaves were transported by Arab slave traders to other parts of the world between 1500 and 1900.
Most notably from Baltimore, Co Cork!
âTheyâ must have fetched a handsome price given their unusual colouring!
I think your question is an important one but don’t think it requires great courage to answer – Technology – from transport to weapons to agricultural cultivation (the latter dependent on the inescapable facts of geography)
And why did Africans not invade, colonise and enslave Europeans?
Oh, but they did, as @Andrew Wise has pointed out. And ‘everyone’ with a history book has known it. But in today’s ‘progressive’ circles, morality is wholly rigged against the Golden Rule and the Bible and the Europeans which promoted it. Oh, and Americans too.
Pray do tell because I don’t know why.
Youâre not a DAR*by any chance?
(*Daughter of the American Revolution.)
Youâre not a DAR*by any chance?
(*Daughter of the American Revolution.)
Thomas Sowellâs book Conquest and Culture is quite good on this. Societies with active trading networks tend to develop faster than those without. Cross fertilisation of ideas, rudimentary counting, etc all being necessary for trade.
Trade involves transport of goods and the cheapest way of doing that is via water. Places with long, navigable rivers, deep into their interior, have tended to develop faster. Africa has relatively few.
For that matter, now that the world is 150+ years beyond this subject, why is the continent of Africa still living in the 19th century? Their main product produced continues to be extreme poverty.
Actually northern Africans (Algiers) did capture Christian Slaves(European) in the 18th/19th century⊠the bombardment of Algiers was a famous naval battle when lord Exmouth forced the Bey to release them
I think your question is an important one but don’t think it requires great courage to answer – Technology – from transport to weapons to agricultural cultivation (the latter dependent on the inescapable facts of geography)
And why did Africans not invade, colonise and enslave Europeans?
Oh, but they did, as @Andrew Wise has pointed out. And ‘everyone’ with a history book has known it. But in today’s ‘progressive’ circles, morality is wholly rigged against the Golden Rule and the Bible and the Europeans which promoted it. Oh, and Americans too.
Pray do tell because I don’t know why.
Thomas Sowellâs book Conquest and Culture is quite good on this. Societies with active trading networks tend to develop faster than those without. Cross fertilisation of ideas, rudimentary counting, etc all being necessary for trade.
Trade involves transport of goods and the cheapest way of doing that is via water. Places with long, navigable rivers, deep into their interior, have tended to develop faster. Africa has relatively few.
For that matter, now that the world is 150+ years beyond this subject, why is the continent of Africa still living in the 19th century? Their main product produced continues to be extreme poverty.
Man’s inhumanity to man is colorless.
American?
We are all slaves to our sin.
We are all slaves to our sin.
American?
Well, the indentured Irish labourers who were shipped to the colonies were often treated just as badly as the African slaves.
British orphans were getting shipped to the colonies up to the 1970s. Many suffered all manner of abuse and most were little more than slaves.
British orphans were getting shipped to the colonies up to the 1970s. Many suffered all manner of abuse and most were little more than slaves.
I agree, these African leaders must be considered the first cause. We don’t know what might have happened if said leaders had refused to sell people; it’s possible that the Europeans would have done their own raiding and it’s also possible that they would have just said “dash it all, chaps, let’s go home”, and sailed off into the sunset.
Hear hear! But why is this not said out loud in the media? And why did Africans not invade, colonise and enslave Europeans? We all know the answer, of course… but no one has the backbone, guts and courage to say so?
Man’s inhumanity to man is colorless.
Well, the indentured Irish labourers who were shipped to the colonies were often treated just as badly as the African slaves.
Every anniversary of VE Day, without fail, some Guardian hack will pen an article insisting that anyone who shows any pride in Britain’s wartime past is jingoistic and somehow laying claim to glories that belonged to another generation. Yet many of those authors who push such miserabilist bilge, also insist we should all shoulder the guilt for anything bad done by this country in its imperial past.
Admiration for heroes in the comparatively recent past is backwards looking, yet we’re somehow on the hook for reparations to the colonised 200 years later? It doesn’t seem a consistent position.
Why should the statute of limitations for guilt should run so much longer than that of glory?
Pretty well all the ‘older white men’ in my part of North London are avid readers of the Guardian. The air is full of their mating calls: ‘The Gawdian says …’, ‘did you say that thing in today’s Gawdian?’ Its basic appeal is that it tells them that their behaviour doesn’t matter so long as they have the right opinions.
“The whole concept of hereditary guilt is just wrong.” Of course but it exists in several cultures such as in Pakistan and India where bonded labour still immiserates the lives of well over a million men, women and children working off the debts – but never ever managing to do so – of previous generations. This despite the fact that the practice has been supposedly outlawed.
I totally agree with you about inherted sins, but, when I first read about the possible slavery links of the Guardian founder, I did rather think “ha, hoisted by your own petard”, and endulged in a little schadenfreude (my bad, I know).
Agreed. Those responsible for the trade were the African rulers who sold their own people and the merchants who bought them.
Every anniversary of VE Day, without fail, some Guardian hack will pen an article insisting that anyone who shows any pride in Britain’s wartime past is jingoistic and somehow laying claim to glories that belonged to another generation. Yet many of those authors who push such miserabilist bilge, also insist we should all shoulder the guilt for anything bad done by this country in its imperial past.
Admiration for heroes in the comparatively recent past is backwards looking, yet we’re somehow on the hook for reparations to the colonised 200 years later? It doesn’t seem a consistent position.
Why should the statute of limitations for guilt should run so much longer than that of glory?
Pretty well all the ‘older white men’ in my part of North London are avid readers of the Guardian. The air is full of their mating calls: ‘The Gawdian says …’, ‘did you say that thing in today’s Gawdian?’ Its basic appeal is that it tells them that their behaviour doesn’t matter so long as they have the right opinions.
“The whole concept of hereditary guilt is just wrong.” Of course but it exists in several cultures such as in Pakistan and India where bonded labour still immiserates the lives of well over a million men, women and children working off the debts – but never ever managing to do so – of previous generations. This despite the fact that the practice has been supposedly outlawed.
The Guardian today is no more responsible for things that happened 180 years ago than any of us are for the Irish Potato Famine in the 1840s. In just the same way that children are not – and should not be – responsible for the decisions and any debts of their parents. The whole concept of hereditary guilt is just wrong. As is punishing a group of people for the actions of individuals (group punishment).
English law has always been quite clear about these matters. We need to fight back against ignorant and misguided people spreading this nonsense.
The only issue I have with the Guardian here is their double standards. If they support hereditary guilt and group punishment (they don’t seem particularly keen on older white men – but I’m not letting it bother me) they can’t be surprised if they eventually get judged against the same “standard”.
The Guardian has form on not reporting on matters that dont fit in to their worldview. They said very little about the sexual exploitation of young white girls by predominantly men of Pakistani heritage. Had it been the other way round, white men exploiting young Asian girls, the paper would have gone into meltdown.
The common denominator is men.
American?
Misandry alert.
Nonsense, just a bit of banter!
Incidentally she opened the batting with â You could have googled it before you posted your commentâ.
So fair game donât you think Ms Barrows?
Really? Or do you have evidence that shows women were equally involved in that exploitation?
The child exploitation rings were not the result of “men”.
You might as well say they were the result of “humans”! Anyone suggesting that such crimes should be blamed on an entire gender, clearly has bigotry issues of their own & is in no position to correct someone else.
So, yes, misandry is an accurate description of this mindset.
More significant is the ideological position of these paedophile rings. The male & female supporters of this ideology maintain that Mohammed, who married a 61/2 to 7yr old little girl (Aisha), is the perfect moral example, so of course, these paedophile rings were not paedophile at all in their view. Now THAT is a serious problem.
When a Tory politician dared to point this out a few years ago he was simply sacked………
The child exploitation rings were not the result of “men”.
You might as well say they were the result of “humans”! Anyone suggesting that such crimes should be blamed on an entire gender, clearly has bigotry issues of their own & is in no position to correct someone else.
So, yes, misandry is an accurate description of this mindset.
More significant is the ideological position of these paedophile rings. The male & female supporters of this ideology maintain that Mohammed, who married a 61/2 to 7yr old little girl (Aisha), is the perfect moral example, so of course, these paedophile rings were not paedophile at all in their view. Now THAT is a serious problem.
When a Tory politician dared to point this out a few years ago he was simply sacked………
Nonsense, just a bit of banter!
Incidentally she opened the batting with â You could have googled it before you posted your commentâ.
So fair game donât you think Ms Barrows?
Really? Or do you have evidence that shows women were equally involved in that exploitation?
But the phenomenon under discussion is self-righteous hypocrisy.
The common denominator is children
American?
Misandry alert.
But the phenomenon under discussion is self-righteous hypocrisy.
The common denominator is children
So did all the other ‘woke’ folk eg. the police!
The common denominator is men.
So did all the other ‘woke’ folk eg. the police!
The Guardian has form on not reporting on matters that dont fit in to their worldview. They said very little about the sexual exploitation of young white girls by predominantly men of Pakistani heritage. Had it been the other way round, white men exploiting young Asian girls, the paper would have gone into meltdown.
There simply isn’t room to list all the Guardian’s hypocrisies.
But just a flavour:
John Edward Taylor, the founder, witnessed the “Peterloo massacre”, and the papers current incarnation used the 200th anniversary of Peterloo to lay claim to the heritage of those who’d died in the name of “Democracy, liberty and fraternity”. Articles abounded, with the great and good of the G writing staff all wishing to associate themselves with the noble aims of the Perterloo âmartyrsâ, whilst at the very same moment they were explicitly engaged in a campaign to disenfranchise millions of ordinary voters whoâd voted for Brexit.
The arguments that the Guardian’s “Peoples’ Ref” devotees used â that the âlittle peopleâ were too ill-informed, too easily swayed by lies etc, were precisely the same arguments that had previously been used against universal suffrage: That working class people, or women, were not informed enough, not educated enough, not intellectually robust enough, to deserve the vote.
The hypocrisy was simply breath-taking. – Though utterly unsurprising.
Guardian Media Group, when it sold its 50% stake in Auto Trader to Apax Partners in 2008, used a tax-exempt shell company in the Cayman Islands to avoid paying corporation tax. GMG realised over ÂŁ300 million in profit on that sale â yet paid not a sou in Corporation tax. This was all perfectly legal.
Over the years Guardian Media Group has invested hundreds of millions in offshore hedge funds. Keeping it under the radar and beyond the grasp of HMRC. Again, all perfectly legal.
Yet the Guardian loves nothing more than to thunder its disapproval of large multinationals – Starbucks, Apple, Vodafone etc – and the unnamed “super-rich” for not “paying their fair share.” Guardian hacks regularly get their knickers in a bunch over such tax avoidance strategies – though oddly never train their guns on their employers. Why do multinationals warrant such opprobrium whilst GMG escape any such criticism?
Any time a Guardian op-ed references the Daily Mail, it is a cast-iron certainty that the article – not to mention several dozen posters – will bring up the 1930’s Daily Mail “Hurrah for the Blackshirts” headline – as proof that the Mail is fascistic. It gets boring to point this out – particularly as I’m not a Mail reader myself – the stupid unthinking hypocrisy of Guardian posters imagining that their paper of choice is all things good and the Daily Mail is all bad.
The DM did indeed briefly support the British Union of Fascists, up until Kristallnacht, at which point they withdrew any such support and became virulently anti-fascist. The Guardian, on the other hand, was staunchly pro-Eugenics and supported the idea for a very long time after most civilised people had recognised it as an abomination.
If they’re going to insult a newspaper for what they endorsed 80+ years ago, they might want to pick their targets more carefully, lest they shoot themselves in the foot.
The Guardian has championed some indefensible causes in its past, yet always puts out the idea that they occupy the moral high ground. They lambasted any paper that they considered was not being anti-Trump enough, so I always like to remind them of Op-Ed praise they’ve previously heaped on other nationalists in their time… “Mr Ceausescu, has shown immense courage in asserting Romaniaâs independence from the Russians and encouraging Romaniaâs nationalism” … for instance!
The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there – and those who insist on judging the past by the acceptable norms of C21st activism, only make themselves look ignorant and foolish, particularly given the propensity of Guardian editorials to indulge in “Offence Archaeology” – to uncover minor indiscretions of public figures from 20 or 30 years ago and then use them to hound that person out of office – whilst at the same time giving a free pass to anyone from their own side of the political aisle. Charges of bullying against Bercow and Meghan Markle are airily dismissed, whilst similar charges are mercilessly pursued against Priti Patel and Dominic Raab.
The Guardian is RELENTLESSLY negative – about pretty much everything. Over the last 15 years it has got markedly worse. It was always sanctimonious but it at least tried to incorporate a broader spectrum of ideas and didn’t wrap itself in the flag of liberal victimhood. (I even remember when it occasionally published ‘positive’ stories – which seems a very long time ago now).
Any objectivity has vanished. Any hope has been dashed that a Guardian editorial might ever assess a policy on its merits, and stop judging a policy, an action, a statement based solely on who has espoused it and what tribe they belong to. Whether that be a political tribe or any of the other boxes into which “Liberals” seek to place us in their ‘hierarchy of victim-status’.
Their ongoing narrative is wholly at odds with reality. The Guardian has a dystopian worldview and narrative predicated on catastrophism – it seems almost as though they are willing such a future into existence.
The Guardian proudly trumpets “Comment is free⊠but facts are sacred”. Yet facts are so routinely ignored in favour of their preferred narrative that I wonder how the Editors still put out CP Scott’s dictum every day with a straight face.
This is an incredibly detailed indictment of the failings of the present day Guardian, and you include factual detail to support your argument. I thank-you for this reasoned and calm post.
Fantastic comment.
A masterful evisceration, thank you.
Presumably âknickers in a bunchâ is the Scotch version of âknickers in a twistâ?
Surely Scotchmen do not wear knickers, because kilts….
âTheyâ probably do now thanks to the SNP and its gender tosh.
âTheyâ probably do now thanks to the SNP and its gender tosh.
Aye
Surely Scotchmen do not wear knickers, because kilts….
Aye
Brilliant, worthy of Orwell.
I think you’re being much to kind to them.
This is an incredibly detailed indictment of the failings of the present day Guardian, and you include factual detail to support your argument. I thank-you for this reasoned and calm post.
Fantastic comment.
A masterful evisceration, thank you.
Presumably âknickers in a bunchâ is the Scotch version of âknickers in a twistâ?
Brilliant, worthy of Orwell.
I think you’re being much to kind to them.
There simply isn’t room to list all the Guardian’s hypocrisies.
But just a flavour:
John Edward Taylor, the founder, witnessed the “Peterloo massacre”, and the papers current incarnation used the 200th anniversary of Peterloo to lay claim to the heritage of those who’d died in the name of “Democracy, liberty and fraternity”. Articles abounded, with the great and good of the G writing staff all wishing to associate themselves with the noble aims of the Perterloo âmartyrsâ, whilst at the very same moment they were explicitly engaged in a campaign to disenfranchise millions of ordinary voters whoâd voted for Brexit.
The arguments that the Guardian’s “Peoples’ Ref” devotees used â that the âlittle peopleâ were too ill-informed, too easily swayed by lies etc, were precisely the same arguments that had previously been used against universal suffrage: That working class people, or women, were not informed enough, not educated enough, not intellectually robust enough, to deserve the vote.
The hypocrisy was simply breath-taking. – Though utterly unsurprising.
Guardian Media Group, when it sold its 50% stake in Auto Trader to Apax Partners in 2008, used a tax-exempt shell company in the Cayman Islands to avoid paying corporation tax. GMG realised over ÂŁ300 million in profit on that sale â yet paid not a sou in Corporation tax. This was all perfectly legal.
Over the years Guardian Media Group has invested hundreds of millions in offshore hedge funds. Keeping it under the radar and beyond the grasp of HMRC. Again, all perfectly legal.
Yet the Guardian loves nothing more than to thunder its disapproval of large multinationals – Starbucks, Apple, Vodafone etc – and the unnamed “super-rich” for not “paying their fair share.” Guardian hacks regularly get their knickers in a bunch over such tax avoidance strategies – though oddly never train their guns on their employers. Why do multinationals warrant such opprobrium whilst GMG escape any such criticism?
Any time a Guardian op-ed references the Daily Mail, it is a cast-iron certainty that the article – not to mention several dozen posters – will bring up the 1930’s Daily Mail “Hurrah for the Blackshirts” headline – as proof that the Mail is fascistic. It gets boring to point this out – particularly as I’m not a Mail reader myself – the stupid unthinking hypocrisy of Guardian posters imagining that their paper of choice is all things good and the Daily Mail is all bad.
The DM did indeed briefly support the British Union of Fascists, up until Kristallnacht, at which point they withdrew any such support and became virulently anti-fascist. The Guardian, on the other hand, was staunchly pro-Eugenics and supported the idea for a very long time after most civilised people had recognised it as an abomination.
If they’re going to insult a newspaper for what they endorsed 80+ years ago, they might want to pick their targets more carefully, lest they shoot themselves in the foot.
The Guardian has championed some indefensible causes in its past, yet always puts out the idea that they occupy the moral high ground. They lambasted any paper that they considered was not being anti-Trump enough, so I always like to remind them of Op-Ed praise they’ve previously heaped on other nationalists in their time… “Mr Ceausescu, has shown immense courage in asserting Romaniaâs independence from the Russians and encouraging Romaniaâs nationalism” … for instance!
The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there – and those who insist on judging the past by the acceptable norms of C21st activism, only make themselves look ignorant and foolish, particularly given the propensity of Guardian editorials to indulge in “Offence Archaeology” – to uncover minor indiscretions of public figures from 20 or 30 years ago and then use them to hound that person out of office – whilst at the same time giving a free pass to anyone from their own side of the political aisle. Charges of bullying against Bercow and Meghan Markle are airily dismissed, whilst similar charges are mercilessly pursued against Priti Patel and Dominic Raab.
The Guardian is RELENTLESSLY negative – about pretty much everything. Over the last 15 years it has got markedly worse. It was always sanctimonious but it at least tried to incorporate a broader spectrum of ideas and didn’t wrap itself in the flag of liberal victimhood. (I even remember when it occasionally published ‘positive’ stories – which seems a very long time ago now).
Any objectivity has vanished. Any hope has been dashed that a Guardian editorial might ever assess a policy on its merits, and stop judging a policy, an action, a statement based solely on who has espoused it and what tribe they belong to. Whether that be a political tribe or any of the other boxes into which “Liberals” seek to place us in their ‘hierarchy of victim-status’.
Their ongoing narrative is wholly at odds with reality. The Guardian has a dystopian worldview and narrative predicated on catastrophism – it seems almost as though they are willing such a future into existence.
The Guardian proudly trumpets “Comment is free⊠but facts are sacred”. Yet facts are so routinely ignored in favour of their preferred narrative that I wonder how the Editors still put out CP Scott’s dictum every day with a straight face.
Unserious racial grifters revealed to be unserious by serious racial grifters.
Couldnât agree more.
Couldnât agree more.
Unserious racial grifters revealed to be unserious by serious racial grifters.
The Guardian is learning that if you suck up to bullies, it doesnât make them leave you alone, it encourages them to see you as weak.
They are the bullies. And very stupid ones at that.
Well said.
They are the bullies. And very stupid ones at that.
Well said.
The Guardian is learning that if you suck up to bullies, it doesnât make them leave you alone, it encourages them to see you as weak.
Itâs always a pleasure watching the revolution eating itâs children.
Itâs always a pleasure watching the revolution eating itâs children.
Itâs all very, very sad. The Guardian was once the home of serious, analytical, investigative journalism. It wouldnât always get everything right, and yes it has always leaned leftwards. But at least it tried to be truthful. Now itâs trapped in corporate-sponsored, self-destructive narratives around white privilege, net zero, vaccine efficacy, safe spaces, gender ideology and all the rest of it that actively deny the value of freedom of expression of diverse and conflicting views and opinions in the pursuit of truth, usually in the name of âkeeping everyone safeâ or âpreventing harmâ.
They are suffocating the liberal democracy which their predecessors helped to found, from within. The tragedy is that the leadership at the Guardian, and other such formerly broadly liberal institutions, just cannot see it for what it is. They cannot perceive the gross harms that they are doing. From the outside, it is easy to see the inevitability of their disordered, bleak nihilism, grounded in the negative emotions of guilt, envy, and resentment, turning in on itself, as it has on historical slavery. But from the inside, it just doesnât look like that.
So forgive them, for they know not what they do. They are not bad people. Those of us fortunate to be able to see through the reheated Marxian nonsense that is critical social and race theories should challenge ourselves to try and love those who have sadly got themselves tangled up in it all: to meet their negativity with positivity, to criticise them with a friendly smile and an open heart, to offer a helping hand out rather than a facepalm of rejection, and above all to try our level best to remain kind, gracious and humble rather than hurt, angry and self-righteous. A tough, perhaps impossible, standard to meet but it is something to aim for and it might just be the way we break the downward spiral of recrimination and anger and so get out of this chaotic mess we find ourselves in.
As a former regular Guardian reader, I can only second what you say about what the Guardian was and what it is now. At first it just made me a little sad to see this venerable newspaper devolving into another “rag”, but after a time I started to get angry – where now do we find a place for reasoned, honest argument from a Left perspective? I find it too difficult to forgive them, though, brcause, unlike you, I believe that they do know what they are doing, and they are prepared to ignore the consequences. They have allowed the lunatics to take over the asylum and what we now see is the result, to the detriment of political discussion in this country.
As a former regular Guardian reader I am saddened by what it has become but I am more angry than sad. I started buying The Guardian around the time of the Jonathan Aitken scandal and when it exposed his lies The Guardian had the sword of truth. For the next decade or so it was a credible and respected national newspaper and its circulation was holding up well despite the growth of the web. However, after it exposed the phone hacking scandal at the News Of The World and the PCC collapsed The Guardian became a law unto itself.
In the latter years of Alan Rusbridgerâs editorship it sold the sword of truth in exchange for clicks by publishing anything by anyone it thought was a victim without caring whether what they wrote was true or fair. The Guardian wanted to dominate the global market for self-pity and it tried to do so by assembling the worldâs largest collection of bad writers, mostly on freelance terms. Katharine Viner was largely responsible for this as deputy editor and then editor of its US and Australian outposts and tried to continue this as editor but it couldnât afford to pay ÂŁ320 every time anyone was offended by anything but by then The Guardianâs credibility and the goodwill of its print readership had been lost.
But The Guardian knew what it was doing. It knew that it was publishing statements without checking them, it knew that it was publishing statements that it knew were untrue and it knew that its system of self-regulation was a sham. It didnât care because whilst The Guardian was portraying itself as changing from being a national newspaper to being a global website it was changing in another way: The Guardian went from being a newspaper to being a cult. It became cult-like in its output, its internal culture and its business model (trying to squeeze as much money as it could out of loyal supporters whilst always looking for new suckers). It even started to build its own Jonestown in the Midland Goods Shed where the faithful would assemble and listen to its leaders whilst drinking Guardian coffee but the plan was abandoned on cost grounds. Now it is drifting along looking for the next bandwagon to jump on even though it knows it damages any cause it supports because thatâs what The Guardian does now.
The Guardian deserves to be destroyed because it has betrayed its readers, its history and some of its own journalists. It could and should have been destroyed years ago but no journalist or organisation was willing and able to do so even though lying is to The Guardian what phone hacking was to the News Of The World but done in plain sight. The Guardian is a dishonest, hypocritical, sanctimonious organisation which doesnât deserve its air of moral superiority. It just persuades itself that the lies that it tells and the hatred that it peddles are morally justified.
As a former regular Guardian reader I am saddened by what it has become but I am more angry than sad. I started buying The Guardian around the time of the Jonathan Aitken scandal and when it exposed his lies The Guardian had the sword of truth. For the next decade or so it was a credible and respected national newspaper and its circulation was holding up well despite the growth of the web. However, after it exposed the phone hacking scandal at the News Of The World and the PCC collapsed The Guardian became a law unto itself.
In the latter years of Alan Rusbridgerâs editorship it sold the sword of truth in exchange for clicks by publishing anything by anyone it thought was a victim without caring whether what they wrote was true or fair. The Guardian wanted to dominate the global market for self-pity and it tried to do so by assembling the worldâs largest collection of bad writers, mostly on freelance terms. Katharine Viner was largely responsible for this as deputy editor and then editor of its US and Australian outposts and tried to continue this as editor but it couldnât afford to pay ÂŁ320 every time anyone was offended by anything but by then The Guardianâs credibility and the goodwill of its print readership had been lost.
But The Guardian knew what it was doing. It knew that it was publishing statements without checking them, it knew that it was publishing statements that it knew were untrue and it knew that its system of self-regulation was a sham. It didnât care because whilst The Guardian was portraying itself as changing from being a national newspaper to being a global website it was changing in another way: The Guardian went from being a newspaper to being a cult. It became cult-like in its output, its internal culture and its business model (trying to squeeze as much money as it could out of loyal supporters whilst always looking for new suckers). It even started to build its own Jonestown in the Midland Goods Shed where the faithful would assemble and listen to its leaders whilst drinking Guardian coffee but the plan was abandoned on cost grounds. Now it is drifting along looking for the next bandwagon to jump on even though it knows it damages any cause it supports because thatâs what The Guardian does now.
The Guardian deserves to be destroyed because it has betrayed its readers, its history and some of its own journalists. It could and should have been destroyed years ago but no journalist or organisation was willing and able to do so even though lying is to The Guardian what phone hacking was to the News Of The World but done in plain sight. The Guardian is a dishonest, hypocritical, sanctimonious organisation which doesnât deserve its air of moral superiority. It just persuades itself that the lies that it tells and the hatred that it peddles are morally justified.
What a brilliant comment. I’m reading the biography of Elizabeth Gaskell, one of my favourite authors (“Wives and Daughters” is sublime!). She lived in Manchester, was horrified by the conditions of the English cotton mill workers and tried to raise public awareness about them through her writings, most obviously through “North and South”. I haven’t found out yet what her views were on the slaves who produced the cotton in America, and whether she included them in her social campaigning (I don’t think so though). Thus she could probably also be attacked now as a “white supremacist”. (How misguided!) There should never be a hierarchy of causes. One should not criticise for example someone who devotes themselves to looking after stray animals on the basis that they care more for animals than people and thus are in some way morally deficient – we can’t all solve everything and each of us must do our part with what is placed before us in our lives. However, what I do know is that Elizabeth Gaskell, who believed utterly in speaking the truth, and was full of fun and yet also intensely kind, would have echoed your comment – that we should approach everything and everyone including the writers at the Guardian, with both clear eyed truth, but also tolerance and understanding. The writers at the Guardian need to be called out in this way. We need everyone to see how dangerous these Identitarian Marxist ways of thinking are.
What did you think of the âTellyâ version a few years ago?
Haven’t watched the telly version of Wives and Daughters yet as I need to order the DVDs!! It looks great – Keeley Hawes (sp?) as Cynthia, Michael Gambon as the Squire, Francesca Annis as the silly stepmother… (I may have seen it years ago but can’t remember for sure). I gave the book to my 89 year old mother for Christmas and she is loving it – she’d only read North and South previously. ) x
I am sorry, I should have been more precise as I meant âNorth and Southâ, the BBC version with the late Tim Pigott-Smith and Daniela Denny-Ashe. Probably 10-15 years ago now!
Definitely haven’t watched that!
You should if you ever get the chance.
Richard Armitage played an excellent âMill ownerâ.
Much of the âNorthâ was filmed around the splendid Glasgow Necropolis, a suitably grim location.
You should if you ever get the chance.
Richard Armitage played an excellent âMill ownerâ.
Much of the âNorthâ was filmed around the splendid Glasgow Necropolis, a suitably grim location.
Radio 4 version was brilliant
Definitely haven’t watched that!
Radio 4 version was brilliant
I am sorry, I should have been more precise as I meant âNorth and Southâ, the BBC version with the late Tim Pigott-Smith and Daniela Denny-Ashe. Probably 10-15 years ago now!
Haven’t watched the telly version of Wives and Daughters yet as I need to order the DVDs!! It looks great – Keeley Hawes (sp?) as Cynthia, Michael Gambon as the Squire, Francesca Annis as the silly stepmother… (I may have seen it years ago but can’t remember for sure). I gave the book to my 89 year old mother for Christmas and she is loving it – she’d only read North and South previously. ) x
You make a brilliant point about the cotton mill workers who get overlooked in the race clamour. I daresay the Little Circle were relieved that their employees were too badly educated to have an amanuensis to detail their many hurts and miseries. When the race warriors point at us white folks and our exploitation of slaves how many people was that? Because the population in the Industrial Revolution lived hungry, cold lives. The spoils of slavery were enjoyed by a very tiny number of British people, while the masses toiled, not much better off than the southern slaves who produced the raw goods. Were the employees at John Edward Taylorâs mills enjoying better wages, an education for their children, safe working conditions, decent housing? I suspect not.
Excellent point, well said.
Excellent point, well said.
Thank you. I agree. Iâve been reflecting lately on how angry and let down I have felt over the past few years by people who I thought should know better. My conclusion is that pointing the finger at them and accusing them of ignorance, cowardice, or venality is not going to change their minds, itâs only going to make them dig their heels in further, and deepen the divisions. While there are some very good, decent people on the conservative right, they are never going to be able on their own to convince people who see themselves as left progressives to change their minds. Whereas the captured progressive left or technocratic centre wonât be able easily to ignore or dismiss carefully considered constructive criticism from a left or centre perspective that acknowledges their point of view, recognises that they have some legitimate grievances and ideas, and does not directly assault their ego by suggesting that they have some kind of mal-intent. Dissenting leftists and centrists need to overcome the fear factor and any historical prejudices they might hold, and accept that in todayâs world they have some common causes with those on the right against the captured left. Those on the right need to do likewise. We can debate who should own the railways another day; for now we just need to win the argument that itâs not racist or patriarchal to make the trains run on time.
Not only is better for oneâs own mental state, whatever oneâs own politics, to be approaching âculture warâ issues with the kind of mindset that assumes good intent of all involved, but I really do believe it is the only way that we are going to be able to break the spell of magical wokery that abounds about the kingdom. My feeling is that we might be closer than it might seem to turning the corner and regaining some sense of order & a better grasp on reality in our politics and culture if we can just keep being positive, amicable, and forgiving to those with whom we might disagree – hard though it may sometimes be to do so (and heaven knows that I have lost, and continue to lose, my rag at them on occasion!).
Yes you are so right – in the battle of ideas against dangerous wokism, we must also, (as you say) acknowledge their point of view, recognise they have some legitimate grievances.. and keep on being positive, amicable and forgiving.
Yes! A very sane and wholesome reminder. Who do you persuade with ad hominem denouncements? Especially an undifferentiated thing like: “The Left are all part of nihilistic cult” or “every conservative is an malevolent guardian of wealth and privilege”.
Even as a way to preach to the already converted and stir up energy it’s pretty negative, and to a large degree just isn’t true. Most people mean well and have significant good in them. Most among the more historically grounded sort of conservative can acknowledge a place for liberal and innovative forces, and most of the sane people to the left (they exist) can acknowledge the merit of forces that protect and conserve a great deal of what we have, and what has gone before.
Don’t call the statue-toppling, race-rioting extremists a fair representation of the Left, unless you think the most violent element among the Capitol breachers or Unite the Right marchers fairly represent the Right.
There has to be such a thing as an engaged moderate–I’m trying to be one. People will disagree over whether the present-day far-far left or far-far right represent a greater threat to our lives and liberty, but I want no part of either of them. Vote no on both! Love your enemy and reach out to your presumed opponent when you can.
I applaud your post, Mr. Horsman.
The problem is that what people believe is a reflection of who they are. It goes very deep and isn’t just a matter of changing someone’s mind. Mind set is formed very young and is a combination of nature and nurture.
Nature always TRIUMPHS over nurture.
Ludicrous. I would have thought a blueblood of self-announced high white privilege such as yourself would have a more nuanced view.
Experience and Hans Eysenck have taught me otherwise.
Incidentally what is all this âself-announced high white privilegeâ tosh?
You sound like an old scold.
You said were “born to extreme privilege though no fault of your own” elsewhere on these boards. And that your ancestors were “handsomely compensated” in 1837 in connection with the slave trade. Correct?
Can’t you see that the background (not merely genetic) you cherish has a measure of prevailing influence on your point of view?
Is it nature or nurture though? Yes, it is. Determinists and blank slaters notwithstanding, the “debate” is like arguing whether there’s more day or night at the equator.
Well to be : âborn to extreme privilege through no fault of my ownâ does NOT equate to âhigh white privilegeâ (whatever that means) in my book. It is merely a statement of fact.
Incidentally I donât âcherishâ my background but rather just accept it for what it is.
Slightly baffled by your sentence âis it nature or nurture though?â
Surely it is quite simple, âYou canât put in what God left outâ. QED?
Not demonstrated at all. No one has the wherewithal to discern an individual’s uppermost potential based on their lived outcomes alone. Lucky people who escape dreadful families and neighborhoods can go on to outperform those left behind, somewhat irrespective of their measured intelligence or outward pre-escape character. In fact, Identical twins brought up in different home environments, while eerily similar in personality often have remarkably different behavior and life outcomes. (e.g.: one becomes a drug addict, one doesn’t).
I admit that “blueblood of high white privilege” was a bit of cheap shot. But supporting your essentialist or determinist views with a racialist IQ proponent doesn’t help remove the sense of racialized privilege or self regard, sir.
[rendered (even more ) irrelevant]
Câest la vie!
Indeed.
Indeed.
Câest la vie!
What is privilege ? If one is shipwrecked in lifeboat being a fisherman hardened to cold water will increase one chances of survival, likewise a beduin in a plane crash in a desert.
Today being descended from a long line of landowners may not be much of an advantage but from a along line of upper middle class scholars such as the Huxleys, Wedgewood Benns, James Dyson, etc probably confers enhanced academic ability.,
Not demonstrated at all. No one has the wherewithal to discern an individual’s uppermost potential based on their lived outcomes alone. Lucky people who escape dreadful families and neighborhoods can go on to outperform those left behind, somewhat irrespective of their measured intelligence or outward pre-escape character. In fact, Identical twins brought up in different home environments, while eerily similar in personality often have remarkably different behavior and life outcomes. (e.g.: one becomes a drug addict, one doesn’t).
I admit that “blueblood of high white privilege” was a bit of cheap shot. But supporting your essentialist or determinist views with a racialist IQ proponent doesn’t help remove the sense of racialized privilege or self regard, sir.
[rendered (even more ) irrelevant]
What is privilege ? If one is shipwrecked in lifeboat being a fisherman hardened to cold water will increase one chances of survival, likewise a beduin in a plane crash in a desert.
Today being descended from a long line of landowners may not be much of an advantage but from a along line of upper middle class scholars such as the Huxleys, Wedgewood Benns, James Dyson, etc probably confers enhanced academic ability.,
Well to be : âborn to extreme privilege through no fault of my ownâ does NOT equate to âhigh white privilegeâ (whatever that means) in my book. It is merely a statement of fact.
Incidentally I donât âcherishâ my background but rather just accept it for what it is.
Slightly baffled by your sentence âis it nature or nurture though?â
Surely it is quite simple, âYou canât put in what God left outâ. QED?
You said were “born to extreme privilege though no fault of your own” elsewhere on these boards. And that your ancestors were “handsomely compensated” in 1837 in connection with the slave trade. Correct?
Can’t you see that the background (not merely genetic) you cherish has a measure of prevailing influence on your point of view?
Is it nature or nurture though? Yes, it is. Determinists and blank slaters notwithstanding, the “debate” is like arguing whether there’s more day or night at the equator.
Experience and Hans Eysenck have taught me otherwise.
Incidentally what is all this âself-announced high white privilegeâ tosh?
You sound like an old scold.
Ludicrous. I would have thought a blueblood of self-announced high white privilege such as yourself would have a more nuanced view.
But it is not fixed in place. Should parents give up when the children hit four because Freud or whomever says the personality is immovably formed?
I agree that were are not blank or fully erasable slates but experience and (to some extent) voluntary kinds of engagement with the world (behavior, mindset) can continue to work deep changes in people, for better or worse, throughout their lives.
Nature always TRIUMPHS over nurture.
But it is not fixed in place. Should parents give up when the children hit four because Freud or whomever says the personality is immovably formed?
I agree that were are not blank or fully erasable slates but experience and (to some extent) voluntary kinds of engagement with the world (behavior, mindset) can continue to work deep changes in people, for better or worse, throughout their lives.
I am sure not one can change their minds. Muggeridge stated Communism is an urban religion attractive to those with a grudge against their fellow man and civilisation. Muggeridge and Orwell understood the character of the left wing middle class. I think it boils down to lack of physical and mental toughness plus practical skills to enjoy the rough and tumble of life. Look at what degrees and sports they play. Has the labour Parties of Hampstead, Highgate and Islington ever included rugby playing engineers? Now compare Guardian types to rugby playing miners and those working in heavy industry or commercial trawling.
Those who have conquered fear can walk with the animals which was why George Adamson could walk with lions.On a physical level I think most Guardian types are fearful of tough practical men which is why they turned on traditional Labour/Democrat voting blue collar and manual workers and ignore plight of those who lived in squalid slums and worked in satanic mills. One cannot hate what one does not fear.
So the tough practical blokes also fear the “Guardian types”? Or the hatred is unidirectional?
Fear and hatred indeed strongly intersect but not without exception, I don’t think.
Can someone have contempt for something they don’t fear, or at least don’t fear much? Can someone love some person or thing they also fear, at least in part?
Making hate and fear interchangeable or inseparable takes it too far, in my opinion.
Mr. Horsman does not assert that their minds can’t be changed, but this: “My conclusion is that pointing the finger at them and accusing them of ignorance, cowardice, or venality is not going to change their minds, itâs only going to make them dig their heels in further, and deepen the divisions“.
Do you disagree with that? “Hey, Guardian types, stop hating and fearing me like a little coward and come listen to a tough practical man!”
Those who have conquered fear can walk with the wild animals; G Adamson and lions being a good example.
If one watches tough women, say those who run construction site canteens,market stalls, landladies of pubs in rough areas, farmers/land owners working with dangerous animals ( bulls, cows, sows, stallions, ), especially those who hunt and working alongside tough men, they invariably have a relaxed cheerful calm authoritative confidence which often is lacking from upper middle class urban professional mercantile types who appear brittle, nervous in the presence of the builder. Someone who can be thrown from a horse or knocked flying by an animal, or fall over, land in cold wet mud, laugh it off and carry on has mental and physical resilience and will therefore tend to be relaxed.
Fine. I’ve done building work so I know what you mean. But there is plenty of rage and fear in the average person who is quite physically unafraid. That’s the pushback or balancing act I was attempting.
If you assert a close correlation between fear and hatred–not without reason–then the hatred of many tradespeople for intellectually propped-up weaklings has an element of fear too. Or are you suggesting the hardy working folk are damn near devoid of both hatred and fear?
A muscled and tattooed ex-con who’s rarely worked (20 year sentence) might intimidate a rugged working man, but the ex-con is not therefore without his own hatred and fears.
Someone has passed the test is secure in the knowledge of what they have achieved, tend to be relaxed, have a sense of humour, can laugh at themselves. They are easy to work with because they largely lack fear, hatred and an inferiority complex .
The very tough skilled foremen with combat experience I have worked with respect scholarship; the truly top engineer but see through the inadequate very quickly. When insults are traded easily and everyone gives as good as they get, one has a good team. The phrase ” No insult meant” with the reply ” None taken ” has become rare.
That sounds wonderful. A far more positive and resilient bunch than many, probably most, I’d guess. I still don’t think Guardian readers fit so neatly into your hypersensitive weakling mold, nor that all tradespeople are hale fellows well-met. Many are, but I’ve worked with some real jerks and weasels too.
Thanks for a good exchange. No offense taken on this side of the pond.
I have worked with some exceptional foremen and engineers, the types who turned deserts into the vibrant cities and oil installations of the Middle East in the 1960s to 1980s. Working out of doors when temperatures hit 54 Centigrade is hard work. However, these foremen had fought in the jungles of Malaya and Borneo , in the mountains of the Radfan, Yemen and Oman before they entered the construction/oil industies. Many of the British supervisors/foremen on the oil installations were ex Parachute Regiment/Royal Marine Commandos/Special Forces and served overseas which is why the various Arab National Oil Companies employed them.
I doubt we will ever see their kind again. They had the ability to earn the respect competent tough competent men from all races and religions.
The Guardian was not common reading material.
I think you’ve idealized your own slice of the past, but I admit these manly men sound pretty impressive. What was common reading material among these hardboiled dudes?
Look at photographs of the Middle East pre WW2 and look at it now at it now. The men I worked with fought in the various conflicts and then built the modern infrastructure. The greater the challenge, the greater the attraction for them. They enjoyed listening to the experience of others of similar background such as a Kate Adey but had little time reading the opinions of those who lacked their worldliness.
In Britain, inherited wealth either induces people to seek a life of adventure or one of security and comfort; The Guardian is a temple for the latter. The Guardian is happy to sacrifice anyone who helps it to maintain a life of security and comfort.