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Sturgeon will lose Scotland’s trans war ... And Labour is unlikely to win either


January 19, 2023   4 mins

In her eight years as Scotland’s First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon has revealed herself to be addicted to, and adept at, Manichaean practices: the use, developed by the devotees of the prophet Mani in the later Roman empire, of a cosmology which divides people, events and the world itself into, on the one side, luminous spirituality and goodness and, on the other, a tenebrous state of wickedness.

In Sturgeon’s rhetoric, the former is the SNP itself, its policies for governing and its goal of national independence. All democratic politics partake, necessarily, of some of Mani’s drear religion, but Sturgeon has made it the brand of her party and her leadership, underpinned by the constant grievance that Scotland remains held — after centuries — in servile chains.

Every SNP minister and senior official must display their versions of this: the head Manichee, example to them all, is Sturgeon. And in the matter of the Gender Recognition Recognition Bill — which would allow children of 16 to change their gender, independently of their parents’ consent  — she deploys its mechanisms with practised skill.

In a speech just before the Bill came to Holyrood, she said she would “never apologise for trying to spread equality”, that the Bill would cut away the “intrusive, traumatic,  dehumanising” barriers to transition, and, with the Vox Humana in full flow, that she bore an important responsibility “to make life a little better for the stigmatised minorities”. This is luminous goodness — government as Good Samaritan.

And yet, the opposing forces, evil as they might be, have put down some markers which could cause the less enlightened to pause. London’s Tavistock Clinic, home to England’s Gender Identity Development Service (Gids), became increasingly beset with complaints and controversy. Last summer, it was closed. Scotland has its own Gids centre: the Sandyford Clinic, in Glasgow. It, too, began to receive a growing list of complaints. Last September, SinĂ©ad Watson, who started to identify as a man aged 20, and who had been prescribed testosterone treatments and had a double mastectomy, told UnHerd that she bitterly regrets it, and called for Sandyford to be closed.

The procedures and overall approaches at the Tavistock and Sandyford are not of liberation and joy, but of young men and women inadequately advised by clinicians who were, as one report noted, more concerned with “putting them quickly onto a pathway to transition”. These considerations closed the Tavistock Gids and now threaten Sandyford: they also inform the decision of the UK Government to animate a Section 35 Order under the 1998 Scotland Act — the legal basis for the Scottish parliament — which has, for the present, stymied the Scots nationalists’ momentum.

In response, the SNP has mounted a grand operatic display of outrage. This was “an unprecedented attack on the Scottish parliament”, its Westminster spokesperson warned. For Sturgeon, it amounted to “a full-frontal attack on our democratically elected Scottish Parliament”. There is no denying the importance of this matter: it has elevated what was largely a political manoeuvre of little general concern into a moral issue that illuminates not just the proper age at which life-changing decisions may be taken, but the very nature of parental responsibility.

Those opposed to the legislation have also stressed the possible threat to women. Johann Lamont, a former Labour member of the Scottish parliament and briefly the leader of the party in Scotland, described in the Sunday Post how she found it “hard to believe anyone really thinks that it’s a good idea to have a convicted male sex offender in a women’s jail”. Reflecting on the consequences of the vote, she added: “the Labour Party manifesto is full of commitments around issues like single-sex spaces and understanding women’s health. But if you have dismantled what the difference between male and female is, how do you even begin to meet those commitments?”

Last year, her national leader, Sir Keir Starmer, struggled to address this theme on a LBC phone-in: when asked if a woman could have a penis, he replied hesitantly that he didn’t think “discussing this issue in this way helps anyone”. But Starmer is on Lamont’s side now: he won’t — as most Labour MSPs did — support Scotland’s Bill: “I have concerns about the provision in Scotland, in particular the age reduction to 16 and in particular the rejection of our amendment in relation to the Equalities Act.” Pressed by Laura Kuenssberg on whether he thinks someone of 16 is old enough to decide to change their gender, he replied: “No, I don’t think you are.” In this, Starmer puts himself on the same footing as the UK Equalities Minister, Kemi Badenoch, who argued that it was “not possible” for the legislation to be “fully contained” within Scotland, since it could contradict parts of the 2010 Equalities Act.

The Labour split on this is deep. Where a few in Scotland took the Starmer-Lamont line, more appear to have been convinced that the progressive stance is to stand with the SNP. Labour put up a number of amendments to the Bill’s clauses, but all were rejected. Even so, rather than take the obvious course of abstaining or even opposing on the basis that the legislation is flawed, most voted yes. Kezia Dugdale, herself also a former Labour Party leader, celebrated the SNP Bill, saying, in a style similar to Sturgeon’s, that “this bill will become law this week not because women were silenced but because many female proponents of it refused to be”. Scotland’s current Labour leader, Anas Sarwar, yesterday agreed that the UK Government was “wrong”.

If the controversy continues and deepens, as seems likely, this may affect a future election: at the very least, it shows that many Labour MSPs and supporters are closer to nationalist than centrist Labour thinking — a political gift to Sturgeon.

But will it be enough? Perhaps the largest prick to the balloon of righteousness, curiously little referred to, is the SNP project’s unpopularity. Recent polls reported in The Times suggest 62% do not support age-reduction decisions from 18 to 16, while only 19% support them. The proposed cut in the waiting period before a new gender is recognised — from two years to three months — is opposed by 50% and approved by 25%. Ending the need for a medical diagnosis is supported by 26%, but opposed by 39%. (In these, the “don’t knows” range from 19-35%, suggesting widespread lack of knowledge of the issue.) Earlier polls by various pollsters show roughly similar results: in none is the SNP approach approved.

So far, the large force of the project, which has gathered every Scottish party save the Conservatives into the SNP camp, has been that of the progressive vanguard. But the UK government still has the legal advantage over the Scottish nationalist and cultural radicals. The population, now better informed, seems inclined to the former’s view. The larger questions, now being unpacked, have yet to divide our still united state.


John Lloyd is a contributing editor to the Financial Times and is writing a book on the rise of the New Right in Europe.


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Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

It’s almost inevitable as a result of even a proposed change in the law in Scotland, that some pervert will get caught exhibiting himself to kids in a changing room under the pretext of considering himself to be a woman. Even just one occurrence of this will destroy the reputation of those supporting the change in law.

What a strange, and in the current extreme political landscape, barely perceptible hill to sacrifice your political career on.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Stewart
Philip Stott
Philip Stott
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

I think Nicola has realised the game is up with IndyRef2, and is now just causing mischief whilst she burnishes her credentials for an international (EU?) role elsewhere.

Zak Orn
Zak Orn
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

It doesn’t though, see the Wi Spa incident in the US. A ‘woman with a p***s’, registered sex offender with a history being convicted of indecent exposure was up to their old tricks, ‘allegedly’ exposing themselves to minors. Eventually the person was charged, but rather than any kind of self-reflection the deranged left-wing media (NYT, WP, Guardian, etc.) instead just desperately tried to cover it up as a “right wing hoax”, a “far-right conspiracy”, etc.
These people don’t care at all about the consequences, no incident will be far enough for the cult to stop and think for a minute.

Last edited 1 year ago by Zak Orn
Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Zak Orn

“up to his old tricks”.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Thanks for dealing with this.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Thanks for dealing with this.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Zak Orn

“up to his old tricks”.

Simon Ault
Simon Ault
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

This has already happened in the US, and there have been no political consequences.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Ault

That was my thought. The BBC reported a rape of a woman on a women’s hospital ward, without mentioning the perpetrator was “assigned male at birth.”

For people to react to it they have to hear about it.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Can someone be ”assigned” their Sex at birth? I just thought ”they were what they were” at birth.I imagined the complications over gender only come much later.

Alison Wren
Alison Wren
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

That phrase is already used in large numbers of official documents including some from the NHS. It’s madness.

Alison Wren
Alison Wren
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

That phrase is already used in large numbers of official documents including some from the NHS. It’s madness.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Women raping women,

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Can someone be ”assigned” their Sex at birth? I just thought ”they were what they were” at birth.I imagined the complications over gender only come much later.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Women raping women,

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Simon Ault

That was my thought. The BBC reported a rape of a woman on a women’s hospital ward, without mentioning the perpetrator was “assigned male at birth.”

For people to react to it they have to hear about it.

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

It’s already happening.

Lavatory assault sex offender born male
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d56968e6-96b9-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=93ab3814f6ed1bc9e77d94479999a675

But whenever these cases are raised we’re ignored, told ‘they aren’t really trans though’ or (one of my favourites) told that this is what men do and the changes won’t make any difference to them doing it!

The gender lobbyists and their allies feel no shame about these incidents and they don’t seem to feel threatened by them at all.

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

It’s already happened many times.
The media will cover it up, the tech companies will block anyone who mentions it and the police will harass the person who reports it.

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

I think Nicola has realised the game is up with IndyRef2, and is now just causing mischief whilst she burnishes her credentials for an international (EU?) role elsewhere.

Zak Orn
Zak Orn
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

It doesn’t though, see the Wi Spa incident in the US. A ‘woman with a p***s’, registered sex offender with a history being convicted of indecent exposure was up to their old tricks, ‘allegedly’ exposing themselves to minors. Eventually the person was charged, but rather than any kind of self-reflection the deranged left-wing media (NYT, WP, Guardian, etc.) instead just desperately tried to cover it up as a “right wing hoax”, a “far-right conspiracy”, etc.
These people don’t care at all about the consequences, no incident will be far enough for the cult to stop and think for a minute.

Last edited 1 year ago by Zak Orn
Simon Ault
Simon Ault
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

This has already happened in the US, and there have been no political consequences.

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

It’s already happening.

Lavatory assault sex offender born male
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d56968e6-96b9-11ed-91ab-4070465550ba?shareToken=93ab3814f6ed1bc9e77d94479999a675

But whenever these cases are raised we’re ignored, told ‘they aren’t really trans though’ or (one of my favourites) told that this is what men do and the changes won’t make any difference to them doing it!

The gender lobbyists and their allies feel no shame about these incidents and they don’t seem to feel threatened by them at all.

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

It’s already happened many times.
The media will cover it up, the tech companies will block anyone who mentions it and the police will harass the person who reports it.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

It’s almost inevitable as a result of even a proposed change in the law in Scotland, that some pervert will get caught exhibiting himself to kids in a changing room under the pretext of considering himself to be a woman. Even just one occurrence of this will destroy the reputation of those supporting the change in law.

What a strange, and in the current extreme political landscape, barely perceptible hill to sacrifice your political career on.

Last edited 1 year ago by Ian Stewart
Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago

I find the comparison with Manicheanism very interesting. It is notable that the three most “progressive” nations are Scotland, Canada, and New Zealand, and what these three have in common is being bordered by much larger states (England, USA, and Australia). Could it be that they are desperately trying to show that they are better than those “evil”, but more powerful, states? If so then it would indicate a form of inferiority complex, which is certainly not something that a place like Scotland needs to suffer (I don’t know enough about the achievements of the other two to comment)

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago

That has indeed been the SNP strategy for some time. I was an SNP member in the 1990’s. Back then, when Labour used to accuse the SNP of xenophobia, SNP strategists realised that they could win over the (left-leaning) Scottish commentariat, plus a large chunk of the Scottish chattering classes, by out-woking Labour on issues such as immigration, asylum, rights and equality. The strategy worked wonders for the SNP and has been in place ever since. All those issues are of little interest to Scots (immigration is at a much lower level in Scotland), so it has not so far alienated the SNP support base.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

I agree with you 100%. It became a competition between some countries as to which country would have the lowest number of Covid fatalities. When the competition was at its peak, New Zealand were the clear leaders with Australia in second place, and Jacinda Ahern was incredibly popular. Now the competition is over and the zero Covid policy proved to be untenable and damaging, her popularity has plummeted. Today she has resigned as under the spotlight of more mundane issues, she has been seen to be incompetent .

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago

I read somewhere that it has to do with the prime ministers of NZ and Canada having done the WEF Young Global Leaders training. I don’t know if Nicola Sturgeon has been “trained”.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago

The question of whether Scotland (or Wales or the Republic of Ireland) “need” to suffer an inferiority complex is irrelevant. They will do anything to wind up or put down the English.

I have left out Northern Ireland as it is a nation which doesn’t seem to suffer this grudge.

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago

That has indeed been the SNP strategy for some time. I was an SNP member in the 1990’s. Back then, when Labour used to accuse the SNP of xenophobia, SNP strategists realised that they could win over the (left-leaning) Scottish commentariat, plus a large chunk of the Scottish chattering classes, by out-woking Labour on issues such as immigration, asylum, rights and equality. The strategy worked wonders for the SNP and has been in place ever since. All those issues are of little interest to Scots (immigration is at a much lower level in Scotland), so it has not so far alienated the SNP support base.

Aphrodite Rises
Aphrodite Rises
1 year ago

I agree with you 100%. It became a competition between some countries as to which country would have the lowest number of Covid fatalities. When the competition was at its peak, New Zealand were the clear leaders with Australia in second place, and Jacinda Ahern was incredibly popular. Now the competition is over and the zero Covid policy proved to be untenable and damaging, her popularity has plummeted. Today she has resigned as under the spotlight of more mundane issues, she has been seen to be incompetent .

Last edited 1 year ago by Aphrodite Rises
Janet G
Janet G
1 year ago

I read somewhere that it has to do with the prime ministers of NZ and Canada having done the WEF Young Global Leaders training. I don’t know if Nicola Sturgeon has been “trained”.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago

The question of whether Scotland (or Wales or the Republic of Ireland) “need” to suffer an inferiority complex is irrelevant. They will do anything to wind up or put down the English.

I have left out Northern Ireland as it is a nation which doesn’t seem to suffer this grudge.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago

I find the comparison with Manicheanism very interesting. It is notable that the three most “progressive” nations are Scotland, Canada, and New Zealand, and what these three have in common is being bordered by much larger states (England, USA, and Australia). Could it be that they are desperately trying to show that they are better than those “evil”, but more powerful, states? If so then it would indicate a form of inferiority complex, which is certainly not something that a place like Scotland needs to suffer (I don’t know enough about the achievements of the other two to comment)

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago

What I don’t understand is why labour went along with it. Did they not foresee what would happen? You didn’t need to be a genius for that, and although the Scottish parliament is full of dimwits (of all colours) someone at labour hq should have rung some kind of bell and that says a lot about Sarwar’s abilities. Clearly the Scottish parliament is his (?) natural habitat.

My question is, who am I going to vote fore at the next election now that Labour is out of the equation (again)? Do I vote again for flip-flop man? How enthralling.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

They went along with it because it appeals to the unthinking ideologue – same reason they supported BLM.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

How astonishing, someone we can actually agree on Mr Stewart!

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Ah there’s a lot more than that Charles!

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago

Ah there’s a lot more than that Charles!

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

All the same, it says a lot about Sarwar’s abilities.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

How astonishing, someone we can actually agree on Mr Stewart!

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

All the same, it says a lot about Sarwar’s abilities.

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

You ask why Labour went along with it. The minimum age for voting in Scottish Parliament elections is 16. The trans issue is the only political issue that excites that age group. They would not do the equivalent of burning their Harry Potter books about any other political issue: declining education standards, poor healthcare, dismal career prospects are of no interest to them. So this issue is political alchemy. The SNP can cause mischief, cast themselves in the role of victim AND hoover up the teen vote.
So why did Labour support the measure? Because they knew that opposing it would mean kissing goodbye to the teen vote.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Francis

Yes: the adolecent school childeren vote – you are right. I am surprised by now ‘she’ (Sturgeon) has not enacted a debate to get all senior school kids on the voting register, from aged 12!

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Francis

I can understand it appealing to the 16 year-olds – gender-bending has a long teenage pedigree – Bowie, Boy George, Lola etc. And show me a teenager that doesn’t enjoy shocking his parents.
But doesn’t it turn off an equal number of pensioners? And won’t the 16 year-olds grow out of it once they have kids?
Doesn’t seem much of a strategy to me.

Last edited 1 year ago by Matt M
Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Pensioners in Scotland haaven’t got a clue what this is all about, so it does not affect their voting behaviour. Yes, the 16 year olds will (let us hope!!) grow out of it, but they will be replaced each year by fresh cohorts of 16 year olds.

Alison Wren
Alison Wren
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Some of them wont be having kids if the government and medical professions go on validating their delusions of being the opposite sex. Once the medical pathway is embarked upon the health risks are huge.

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Pensioners in Scotland haaven’t got a clue what this is all about, so it does not affect their voting behaviour. Yes, the 16 year olds will (let us hope!!) grow out of it, but they will be replaced each year by fresh cohorts of 16 year olds.

Alison Wren
Alison Wren
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Some of them wont be having kids if the government and medical professions go on validating their delusions of being the opposite sex. Once the medical pathway is embarked upon the health risks are huge.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Francis

Yes: the adolecent school childeren vote – you are right. I am surprised by now ‘she’ (Sturgeon) has not enacted a debate to get all senior school kids on the voting register, from aged 12!

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Francis

I can understand it appealing to the 16 year-olds – gender-bending has a long teenage pedigree – Bowie, Boy George, Lola etc. And show me a teenager that doesn’t enjoy shocking his parents.
But doesn’t it turn off an equal number of pensioners? And won’t the 16 year-olds grow out of it once they have kids?
Doesn’t seem much of a strategy to me.

Last edited 1 year ago by Matt M
Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

They went along with it because it appeals to the unthinking ideologue – same reason they supported BLM.

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

You ask why Labour went along with it. The minimum age for voting in Scottish Parliament elections is 16. The trans issue is the only political issue that excites that age group. They would not do the equivalent of burning their Harry Potter books about any other political issue: declining education standards, poor healthcare, dismal career prospects are of no interest to them. So this issue is political alchemy. The SNP can cause mischief, cast themselves in the role of victim AND hoover up the teen vote.
So why did Labour support the measure? Because they knew that opposing it would mean kissing goodbye to the teen vote.

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago

What I don’t understand is why labour went along with it. Did they not foresee what would happen? You didn’t need to be a genius for that, and although the Scottish parliament is full of dimwits (of all colours) someone at labour hq should have rung some kind of bell and that says a lot about Sarwar’s abilities. Clearly the Scottish parliament is his (?) natural habitat.

My question is, who am I going to vote fore at the next election now that Labour is out of the equation (again)? Do I vote again for flip-flop man? How enthralling.

Edward Paleit
Edward Paleit
1 year ago

On the age issue, it’s worth noting that the right to marry or vote begins at 16 in Scotland. Before 1929 in fact the right to marry was 12 for girls and 14 for boys, following the Roman law. Hence elopements from South of the border, which still happen today (in England the minimum marriageable age is 18). In Scotland marriage has never required parental consent either.

This is relevant because whatever one thinks about the trans issue as such it’s clear that Scottish legal and cultural tradition place the boundary of sexual choice and autonomy i.e. adulthood at a younger age than certain other countries and has done for centuries. All the bill does is apply that boundary to a new instance.

Of course we can all have our own views on where adulthood should begin but I’m sceptical that there’s a knockout argument there instead of mere cultural preference or difference. The threshold age of maturity is not an absolute and different countries place it at different times.

I think it makes better sense therefore to concentrate on other aspects of the bill e.g. the elimination of medical diagnosis and the shortening of the period of living in ones claimed gender to 3 months. These are more problematic in my view. Sure others will disagree though!

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Edward Paleit

The age aspect is highly problematic even at 18 years old; studies show that cognitive maturity isn’t reached until approximately 25 years old.
However, in regard to the Scottish Bill, the lowering to 16 creates a massive challenge simply because it brings schools into the equation (which 18 excluded to all intents and purposes).
The legal implications for schools, which would extend into the rest of the UK, are enough on their own to justify Westminster’s intervention

S Wilkinson
S Wilkinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Edward Paleit

The age aspect is highly problematic even at 18 years old; studies show that cognitive maturity isn’t reached until approximately 25 years old.
However, in regard to the Scottish Bill, the lowering to 16 creates a massive challenge simply because it brings schools into the equation (which 18 excluded to all intents and purposes).
The legal implications for schools, which would extend into the rest of the UK, are enough on their own to justify Westminster’s intervention

Edward Paleit
Edward Paleit
1 year ago

On the age issue, it’s worth noting that the right to marry or vote begins at 16 in Scotland. Before 1929 in fact the right to marry was 12 for girls and 14 for boys, following the Roman law. Hence elopements from South of the border, which still happen today (in England the minimum marriageable age is 18). In Scotland marriage has never required parental consent either.

This is relevant because whatever one thinks about the trans issue as such it’s clear that Scottish legal and cultural tradition place the boundary of sexual choice and autonomy i.e. adulthood at a younger age than certain other countries and has done for centuries. All the bill does is apply that boundary to a new instance.

Of course we can all have our own views on where adulthood should begin but I’m sceptical that there’s a knockout argument there instead of mere cultural preference or difference. The threshold age of maturity is not an absolute and different countries place it at different times.

I think it makes better sense therefore to concentrate on other aspects of the bill e.g. the elimination of medical diagnosis and the shortening of the period of living in ones claimed gender to 3 months. These are more problematic in my view. Sure others will disagree though!

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago

Maybe they have actually won the war … or at least this battle. When the conservatives have to fall back on a very narrow legal argument about the equalities act, it shows how captured the soft left Tories have become.
Those opposing these policies need to come out with a full throated ‘Girls are Girls and Boys are Boys’ argument – not some mealy mouthed excuse for a reason.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

I think this too. In twenty years time the number of trans people will be higher and the number of pro-trans people will be too.

I don’t say this because I support transgenderism. I think we would be better off without it. I just think the fact that the group of people who support transgenderism the most, AKA Millennials and Zoomers, will one day be an electoral and opinion-forming majority. I simply think the trans lobby will bide their time and use this episode as a part of their “struggle”.

Galvatron Stephens
Galvatron Stephens
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Wise

I think this too. In twenty years time the number of trans people will be higher and the number of pro-trans people will be too.

I don’t say this because I support transgenderism. I think we would be better off without it. I just think the fact that the group of people who support transgenderism the most, AKA Millennials and Zoomers, will one day be an electoral and opinion-forming majority. I simply think the trans lobby will bide their time and use this episode as a part of their “struggle”.

Andrew Wise
Andrew Wise
1 year ago

Maybe they have actually won the war … or at least this battle. When the conservatives have to fall back on a very narrow legal argument about the equalities act, it shows how captured the soft left Tories have become.
Those opposing these policies need to come out with a full throated ‘Girls are Girls and Boys are Boys’ argument – not some mealy mouthed excuse for a reason.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

Seems like the SNP not only seeks independence from the UK, but also from reality.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

The irony is – if they get independence, they’ll have to veer right sooner or later: pro-business, lower taxes, reduced state services etc to stay afloat. As it is they luxuriate in a private and public economy that is underpinned by the selfish and cruel Big Daddy England.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

The irony is – if they get independence, they’ll have to veer right sooner or later: pro-business, lower taxes, reduced state services etc to stay afloat. As it is they luxuriate in a private and public economy that is underpinned by the selfish and cruel Big Daddy England.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

Seems like the SNP not only seeks independence from the UK, but also from reality.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘lose’. They might lose the legal battle but the trans cult seems to be sweeping all before it. It seems incredible to me that so many women are active proponents. The conservatives can’t even really cash in politically, because they have their own progressive trans lobby and seem unable to summon the testicular fortitude to actually fight the culture war. Perhaps in the wake of some gargantuan economic meltdown, a populist party will — Newtonian Jujitsu style — create an equal and opposite reaction….To be honest, reactionary seems like the way to go right now.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

It seems incredible to me that so many women are active proponents.

In my experience it tends to be women from comfortably well-off backgrounds who have no idea the lengths some men will go to to elicit sex.I also think that age may play a part too. Many of these women may actually know young male acquaintances that seek to be women, whereas those who are older may envision a hairy middle-aged man wearing suspender belts and garters lurking around in the women’s lavatories.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Julian, you are perhaps right about your point about well off women supporters, but I think you are being too kind in attributing their support to naivety.
I would say it’s rather a function of two peculiar characteristics.
Firstly, women tend to think in herds. Hence, whatever the overall group is supposed to believe, no matter how absurd or counter productive, you support.
Secondly, and this involves more malevolence, these women are the biggest beneficiaries of the “no biologist differences between men and women” bs. Which means they get the perks of quotas and “equity” where convenient.
And their thinking is, if a few women get hurt by trans “women” piggybacking on their ideology and tactics, so be it, because it’s still high positive payoffs for them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Samir Iker
Samir Iker
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Julian, you are perhaps right about your point about well off women supporters, but I think you are being too kind in attributing their support to naivety.
I would say it’s rather a function of two peculiar characteristics.
Firstly, women tend to think in herds. Hence, whatever the overall group is supposed to believe, no matter how absurd or counter productive, you support.
Secondly, and this involves more malevolence, these women are the biggest beneficiaries of the “no biologist differences between men and women” bs. Which means they get the perks of quotas and “equity” where convenient.
And their thinking is, if a few women get hurt by trans “women” piggybacking on their ideology and tactics, so be it, because it’s still high positive payoffs for them.

Last edited 1 year ago by Samir Iker
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago

It seems incredible to me that so many women are active proponents.

In my experience it tends to be women from comfortably well-off backgrounds who have no idea the lengths some men will go to to elicit sex.I also think that age may play a part too. Many of these women may actually know young male acquaintances that seek to be women, whereas those who are older may envision a hairy middle-aged man wearing suspender belts and garters lurking around in the women’s lavatories.

Stephen Quilley
Stephen Quilley
1 year ago

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘lose’. They might lose the legal battle but the trans cult seems to be sweeping all before it. It seems incredible to me that so many women are active proponents. The conservatives can’t even really cash in politically, because they have their own progressive trans lobby and seem unable to summon the testicular fortitude to actually fight the culture war. Perhaps in the wake of some gargantuan economic meltdown, a populist party will — Newtonian Jujitsu style — create an equal and opposite reaction….To be honest, reactionary seems like the way to go right now.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

Kezia Dugdale’s views may well be shaped by the fact that her wife is an SNP minister.

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago

Kezia Dugdale’s views may well be shaped by the fact that her wife is an SNP minister.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Oh good, no sign of that woke Holland git.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Oh good, no sign of that woke Holland git.

Henry Mayhew
Henry Mayhew
1 year ago

Haven’t we run out of language with which to describe rapists who become women?

Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago

Don’t forget that age is important in these discussions. I imagine that the average age of UnHerd contributors is about 60. Daily Mail country.

Old people will never support these kind of things. Are there any young people out there with comments?

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

On a totally unrelated topic, yesterday I got an email from some girl from Oxbridge. The email was good and very informative. Yet at the end she signed “name (she/her)”.

rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

She/Her – He/Him – (and the most idiotic) They/Them (whatever that means).
There are probably others I cannto be bothered to know about.
It seems the larger the organisation the more this incideous behavior is spreading.
I often reply to such idiotic emails – after my name – with:
”He/him/she/her/male/tall/not bad today/short/slim/not/slim/i need a coffe and a rest” – or other some other stupidity. Strange things is when I meet these people in person – none of them dare say anythign about ”my” title

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

To me, ‘they’ smacks of the Royal ‘We’ – i.e. people too special to be merely singular.

Dominic A
Dominic A
1 year ago
Reply to  rob drummond

To me, ‘they’ smacks of the Royal ‘We’ – i.e. people too special to be merely singular.

Geraldine Kelley
Geraldine Kelley
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Did you write back challenging her idiocy?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I hope and trust that you wrote back telling her that you have zero respect for pronoun people.
Notwithstanding which, here are mine:-
https://amoebadick.blogspot.com/2021/10/my-pronouns.html

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
rob drummond
rob drummond
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

She/Her – He/Him – (and the most idiotic) They/Them (whatever that means).
There are probably others I cannto be bothered to know about.
It seems the larger the organisation the more this incideous behavior is spreading.
I often reply to such idiotic emails – after my name – with:
”He/him/she/her/male/tall/not bad today/short/slim/not/slim/i need a coffe and a rest” – or other some other stupidity. Strange things is when I meet these people in person – none of them dare say anythign about ”my” title

Geraldine Kelley
Geraldine Kelley
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

Did you write back challenging her idiocy?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Arkadian X

I hope and trust that you wrote back telling her that you have zero respect for pronoun people.
Notwithstanding which, here are mine:-
https://amoebadick.blogspot.com/2021/10/my-pronouns.html

Last edited 1 year ago by Richard Craven
Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Not sure why you’re being downvoted. I’d like to hear a coherent argument from the other side. Alas woke comments on here tend usually to be just snide insults.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

I didn’t downvote it, but a) I’m way off 60 and b) can’t abide the Daily Mail. But if Chris wants to throw those generalisations out without substantiating them, I guess he’s (presumably) getting what he deserves.
I’d also like to see an argument from the other side from time to time as this seems to be the one subject that Unherd only puts one side of the argument for. But as you observe, in the comments it just ends up being troll posts.

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Dalton

Unherd gives the unheard side of the argument. For the argument that dominates the thinking in the UK’s civic institutions, check out the New York Times, Guardian and BBC.

Peter Francis
Peter Francis
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Dalton

Unherd gives the unheard side of the argument. For the argument that dominates the thinking in the UK’s civic institutions, check out the New York Times, Guardian and BBC.

Andrew Dalton
Andrew Dalton
1 year ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

I didn’t downvote it, but a) I’m way off 60 and b) can’t abide the Daily Mail. But if Chris wants to throw those generalisations out without substantiating them, I guess he’s (presumably) getting what he deserves.
I’d also like to see an argument from the other side from time to time as this seems to be the one subject that Unherd only puts one side of the argument for. But as you observe, in the comments it just ends up being troll posts.

Lindsay S
Lindsay S
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Using your imagination in regards to the average age of UnHerd readers is just another way of making an assumption and you know what people say about those!

Last edited 1 year ago by Lindsay S
Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

You could be right about the age, but there are those of us who only enter Daily Mail country to see what they are up to and then hasily withdraw back to civilisation.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

No, far too inarticulate to make any comments, sadly.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Some old people will support these things if they further their political aims. Children be damned.

Julian Pellatt
Julian Pellatt
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Ageism is the province of bigots – like you.

Arkadian X
Arkadian X
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

On a totally unrelated topic, yesterday I got an email from some girl from Oxbridge. The email was good and very informative. Yet at the end she signed “name (she/her)”.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Not sure why you’re being downvoted. I’d like to hear a coherent argument from the other side. Alas woke comments on here tend usually to be just snide insults.

Lindsay S
Lindsay S
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Using your imagination in regards to the average age of UnHerd readers is just another way of making an assumption and you know what people say about those!

Last edited 1 year ago by Lindsay S
Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

You could be right about the age, but there are those of us who only enter Daily Mail country to see what they are up to and then hasily withdraw back to civilisation.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

No, far too inarticulate to make any comments, sadly.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Some old people will support these things if they further their political aims. Children be damned.

Julian Pellatt
Julian Pellatt
1 year ago
Reply to  Chris W

Ageism is the province of bigots – like you.

Chris W
Chris W
1 year ago

Don’t forget that age is important in these discussions. I imagine that the average age of UnHerd contributors is about 60. Daily Mail country.

Old people will never support these kind of things. Are there any young people out there with comments?