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How to get ripped and alienate people The self-help Right is a political wasteland

Brian "Liver King" Johnson was selling a fantasy. (LK)

Brian "Liver King" Johnson was selling a fantasy. (LK)


December 7, 2022   6 mins

For roughly a year, an “ancestral fitness” personality named Brian “Liver King” Johnson ran a successful lifestyle hustle. His pitch to potential true believers was simple: eat raw organ meats, walk around shirtless outdoors, carry kettlebells, and follow his “nine tenets”. The subsequent physical rejuvenation of these sedentary males, formerly afflicted with the declining testosterone levels of the 21st century, would speak for itself. Only it wouldn’t, because Liver King’s methods didn’t work. Not even for him.

Johnson admitted in an apology, made after emails that confirmed his long-denied use of performance-enhancing drugs, that he spent thousands of dollars a month on steroids. The aim was to endow himself with a physique that implied the extreme fitness that he was attempting to sell to others. But that fitness was illusory: one powerlifter who knew him recently mocked his 455-pound deadlift, a decent number for a novice lifter or a teen boy but unimpressive for someone spending as much on steroids as the Liver King.

The Liver King’s story is a microcosm of the ever-evolving Right-wing manosphere, which emerged from self-help roots in the early 2000s to attain a quasi-political, quasi-spiritual status, alongside the ascendancy of Donald Trump. The most obvious Trump train rider in the manosphere was former advice blogger and accused rapist Mike Cernovich, who published the political book MAGA Mindset as a follow-up to his Gorilla Mindset self-help text, between blogging about topics such as grip strength when choking a woman during sex. Liver King never became explicitly political the way Cernovich did, but his message was a streamlined and extremely dumbed-down version of the MAGA-adjacent ideology being preached by anon fitness influencers such as Raw Egg Nationalist — whose alignment with Tucker Carlson led to appearances in a documentary, The End of Men, as well as on Fox News.

For all these men, there is some kind of secret — an ancient secret, in the case of the Liver King — that gullible, inward-looking initiates must uncover, via various steps. The navel-gazing nature of all this recalls the fitness fads, cults, and other New-Age quests for meaning of the Seventies that cultural critic Tom Wolfe labelled America’s “Third Great Awakening”.

The previous two awakenings concerned the revival of Protestant spirituality in the mid-18th and early-19th centuries; all three were spurred by a sense of social disorder. First, New England Congregationalists strayed from the true light of the lord that led them to the New World. Second, newly Independent Americans found themselves facing down the settlement of the frontier with little assistance from their laissez-faire government. And in the Seventies, hippies and flower children found themselves grappling with the violent disappointments of popular protests, while a bloated, bureaucratic state struggled to bring about even a stalemate in Vietnam.

Throughout these three centuries, but with increasing velocity and urgency from the Sixties onward, the personal began to substitute for the political. Now, as Malcom Kyeyune recently noted, we are in uncharted territory: now, with “proliferating numbers of belief systems and fringe political narratives on the Web”, the political is personal. In other words, the “personal” — abetted by the technologies like social media that centre the user, indeed making them the narcissistic centres of their virtual worlds — has completely subsumed the “political”; everything everywhere is personal and filtered through some sort of Freudian superego that functions as a “self-marketing machine”, with the rest of life merely incidental. Online, various quasi-faiths and crude scientism are offering people personal uplift combined with the promise to fix their little communities, the only parts worth saving, the parts open to the elect.

Though influencers such as the Liver King, Raw Egg Nationalist, and Bronze Age Pervert are new to the scene, relatively speaking, nothing about their appeal is novel (even though certain practices, such as directing red light on the testicles to stimulate testosterone production, are only now technologically possible). They themselves emphasise this: their appeals harken back to past practices, times when “men were men”, even if they cannot agree when exactly that was. Hesiod’s age of gold? A Twenties naval port, with nattily-attired “wolves” awaiting the hearty “rough trade” from the high seas, sure to appear whenever the “fleet’s in?” A seedy Forties YMCA, where the bodybuilding demimonde has gathered to “slonk” raw eggs before proceeding to grease up and commence lifting in jockstraps? Regardless of the time of the last real men, it was very different from our present fallen, failed, and low-testosterone state of existence.

Calls for the rebirth of masculinity echo throughout recorded history, issued by everyone from the aforementioned Hesiod to Japanese author and extreme nationalist Yukio Mishima (a favourite of this current round of fitness-cum-politics influencers). The “Third Great Awakening” of the Seventies ended with the emergence of religious groups such as the Promise Keepers, an Evangelical movement seeking to call men back to “courageous leadership” and “marital” fidelity. Meanwhile, in secular literature, the breakdown of masculinity and paternal authority was addressed in Robert Bly’s influential 1990 book Iron John: A Book About Men — a text which inspired any number of subsequent manosphere efforts, including Tom Matlack’s “The Good Men Project”  (a website that launched the careers of everyone from Hugo Schwyzer and Harris “Dr. Nerdlove” O’Malley to yours truly) and even the pickup artistry of Neil Strauss and Mystery (Iron John, like Robert Greene’s works on power and seduction, found itself on many “PUA” reading lists).

I mention my personal involvement here — the personal is political, after all — because I’ve followed the manosphere’s trajectory since the early 2000s. I’ve also spent decades strength training and eating raw meat and raw eggs, as well as interviewing and writing about some of the world’s leading strength coaches and athletes. These activities would suggest, on the surface, that I am sympathetic to the cause of egg-slonkers, bronze-age warrior worshippers and bodybuilding aesthetes. Far from it: I see their Liver King-style marketing as sophomoric, the sort of thing I’ve attacked in print whenever possible.

My interest in strength stems solely from viewing it as preferable to incapacity. The enjoyment I’ve derived from weight training arises, to quote venerable strength coach Mark Rippetoe, who I recently interviewed, from “completing a task you couldn’t do previously”. And yet, throughout my career as a journalist covering sports and fitness, I have been asked what I have learned from figures such as Raw Egg Nationalist. When I interviewed the paleo diet influencer John Durant, during the early days of the alt-Right’s emergence as a media phenomenon, he assumed I shared his belief that eating raw or rare meat is a radical political act. I do see it as political, but only in the sense that I stand with politicians who support regenerative grazing practices and increasing access to meat for poor and undernourished children; meat is merely a means, not an end. I’d gladly eat something less primal, including biologically identical lab-grown meat, if such a thing could ever be manufactured cheaply and at scale.

That’s not to say that these fitness influencers don’t offer some useful advice. All popular gurus and spiritual leaders do. Eating organ meats, getting adequate sleep, spending time in the sun, and even taking some pride in one’s body — an edifice that is both temple and tomb — are not bad practices in and of themselves. However, this advice is chained to a lot of gobbledygook, from bizarre, hero-worshiping misreadings of history to faux-scientific racism. The noted dissident author Zero HP Lovecraft, for instance, once used a voice changer to record a podcast in which he argues that the different races are different species.

It is almost impossible to say how influential these figures are; on the one hand, they will claim that they directly created the Trump phenomenon, but on the other, they will joke that they’re just “frogs” who “shitpost online”, unlike the “facefags” (people whose identities are public) who genuinely care about things. Bronze Age Pervert, whose book Bronze Age Mindset is the sort of amusing Nietzschean pastiche one might expect from a PhD student having a spot of fun, is known to be read by congressional staffers; and yet, he huffily complained about City Journal allowing Kyeyune to publish an article that’s mildly critical of him. Like the Liver King, these figures take zero responsibility for the failures and shortcomings of their acolytes — but unlike him, most of them will never be seen at all, so what difference does it make?

Here, then, is the great weakness that stems from the evolution of “the personal is political” into “the political is personal”: far from allowing the development of strong convictions, the new creed is so malleable as to be meaningless. If one argues that the job of the Republican Party is to win elections and reward its constituencies, those on the Right who preach that “the political is personal” won’t help. Why would they bother? Most are already arguing that the nation or the world has collapsed, which is far easier than facilitating real political change, which would require moving the GOP to the centre.

Things are fairly hopeless, according to the manosphere. Yet if pressed, the Liver Kings and Bronze Age Perverts won’t turn on, tune in, and drop out like millenarian hippies bound for the commune; they’ll hang around, continuing to offer advice on how to infuse the self into politics and vice versa. They and many of their followers — some of whom left the Left by way of the so-called “post-Left” — would gleefully ridicule such “personal-political” posturing were it to issue from gender identitarians or committed anti-racists. Zero HP Lovecraft, however, says the quiet part out loud (in the same podcast in which he compares white and black people to wolves and coyotes): if one side is doing racism, then we will do racism as well.

This is the grave danger behind the very online Right’s turn towards “the political is personal”: at the back of the ironic fitness, the talk of physiognomy, and the IQ-test silliness, there lurks an us-versus-them mentality. And it’s a mentality that allows the manosphere to gleefully join the progressive Left in bidding farewell to any of the remaining civil norms that facilitate debate and compromise. It will do nothing to break the sclerotic gridlock in the body politic — and nothing, ironically, for the young men of America who are actually trying to get stronger.

***

Order your copy of UnHerd’s first print edition here.


Oliver Bateman is a historian and journalist based in Pittsburgh. He blogs, vlogs, and podcasts at his Substack, Oliver Bateman Does the Work

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N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago

Very odd piece with the author determined to find links between exercise and being right wing.
Reading this was not time well spent. It was even less well time spent writing it.

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

One would get far more out of starting Sun and Steel than reading this.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Sorry, N Foster, but again I’m having to piggy-back off another comment as again I have no facility to open a comment – it’s getting tiresome!

But enough of that. All the comments here, so far, have been very negative about this article, but I found it interesting; I’d never heard of this Liver guy until a previous article on UnHerd and this piece explained more about him and his ilk. By-the-way love his beard, can’t say the same for his torso though, but then I don’t imagine it’s supposed to appeal to women.

I think that all of this arises from a crisis of confidence among men, for so long it’s been all their way, and when physical strength was all inportant their sense of superiority was unchallenged, hence the desire to emphasis this strength. As the writer says there is no consensus on what a “real” man (or even a “real” woman) is, which is understandable as each is an individual, but among the men in my life these sorts of antics are laughable. I did once, a long time ago and in a different context, ask my husband what he thought distinguished a “real” man and his answer was simple – he provides for, loves and protects his family and does all he can to ensure the safety of his neighbours and country. When you come to think of it that’s what a “real” woman should do, too.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Linda
Try these (In turn!)
Reload page
Reboot computer
Clear browser cache
Try another browser
Something will work. It has happened to me. Computers are irrational creatures.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Irrational is being kind. I once spoke to one of our work’s computer nerds, who used to work in the computer software engineering industry, and he told me, in all seriousness, that you can take two computers straight from the factory, and the probabilty is that each will have a problem and the problem will be different in each case. What can you do; I think computers were put upon this earth to drive us all to impotent fury.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago

It doesn’t work for me either, so I will reply to you – with another thought: factoring in decreasing sperm count plus the new adulation of LGB etc. it would seem, at some level, we are making sure we do not exceed the level of population regeneration than that which would be sustainable. Post war the most desired shape for women was ultra feminine/child bearing.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago

It doesn’t work for me either, so I will reply to you – with another thought: factoring in decreasing sperm count plus the new adulation of LGB etc. it would seem, at some level, we are making sure we do not exceed the level of population regeneration than that which would be sustainable. Post war the most desired shape for women was ultra feminine/child bearing.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  polidori redux

Irrational is being kind. I once spoke to one of our work’s computer nerds, who used to work in the computer software engineering industry, and he told me, in all seriousness, that you can take two computers straight from the factory, and the probabilty is that each will have a problem and the problem will be different in each case. What can you do; I think computers were put upon this earth to drive us all to impotent fury.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago

Perhaps the more interesting and important issue is the 50% drop in men’s fertility (sperm count) over the past 50 years. No one knows why this is happening. Some think it’s the environment – estrogens (pills) being dumped down the toilet and other drugs. Others point to the sorry physical shape that men are in today – fat, no exercise, smoking, the easy availability of drugs, etc. Perhaps, some men are realizing that to stay in shape is a good thing and in doing so, some take it too far. It could be as simple as that, and that it’s no so-called ‘Right wing’ phenomenon at all. Or perhaps men on the right see ‘diminishing manhood’ as an issue and ‘Lefties’ don’t care; Today, we have ‘Lefty stereotypes’ in the media and ads of the soft-spoken, wet-noodle, thin-and-no-physique techie who hasn’t seen daylight in years.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

One day this summer I was riding through Letchworth when the bus stopped and two dreadful-looking old men got on to it. They were both about sixty, both very short, pink, and chubby, and both hatless. One of them was obscenely bald, the other had long grey hair bobbed in the Lloyd George style. They were dressed in pistachio-coloured shirts and khaki shorts into which their huge bottoms were crammed so tightly that you could study every dimple.

Their appearance created a mild stir of horror on top of the bus. The man next to me, a commercial traveller I should say, glanced at me, at them, and back again at me, and murmured ‘Socialists’, as who should say, ‘Red Indians’.

Orwell, The Road to Wigan Pier. As true in 2022 as in 1937.

Last edited 1 year ago by Matt M
Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

What does “obscenely bald” mean? If he was bald it was hardly a life-style choice, and I’m pretty sure that even lefties and communists don’t make a political thing about being “obscenely bald”.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

I think it is related to the hat wearing he refers to in the previous sentence. Maybe in the 1930s it was considered doubly uncouth to go around in public hatless if you were bald.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago

I think it is related to the hat wearing he refers to in the previous sentence. Maybe in the 1930s it was considered doubly uncouth to go around in public hatless if you were bald.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

What does “obscenely bald” mean? If he was bald it was hardly a life-style choice, and I’m pretty sure that even lefties and communists don’t make a political thing about being “obscenely bald”.

Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

LOL. I’ve not seen many of those “wet noodle” types holding attractive women on their arms, unless they were being paid as escorts. After all, regardless of what women might want to believe today, physically strong men (not so much grossly overdeveloped) attract women more than sickly and skinny ones for a variety of natural and biological reasons.

Last edited 1 year ago by Warren Trees
Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Socialism’ and ‘Communism’ draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.

One day this summer I was riding through Letchworth when the bus stopped and two dreadful-looking old men got on to it. They were both about sixty, both very short, pink, and chubby, and both hatless. One of them was obscenely bald, the other had long grey hair bobbed in the Lloyd George style. They were dressed in pistachio-coloured shirts and khaki shorts into which their huge bottoms were crammed so tightly that you could study every dimple.

Their appearance created a mild stir of horror on top of the bus. The man next to me, a commercial traveller I should say, glanced at me, at them, and back again at me, and murmured ‘Socialists’, as who should say, ‘Red Indians’.

Orwell, The Road to Wigan Pier. As true in 2022 as in 1937.

Last edited 1 year ago by Matt M
Warren Trees
Warren Trees
1 year ago
Reply to  Cathy Carron

LOL. I’ve not seen many of those “wet noodle” types holding attractive women on their arms, unless they were being paid as escorts. After all, regardless of what women might want to believe today, physically strong men (not so much grossly overdeveloped) attract women more than sickly and skinny ones for a variety of natural and biological reasons.

Last edited 1 year ago by Warren Trees
N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago

Yes, there is a crisis among men, especially the young. Unfortunately though most of the advice from progressives is for men to become more feminised, to act and think more like women. At the same time, any advice to grow up and take responsibility of characterised by progressives as “right wing” or even worse.
This article simply reinforces this view conflating what would be considered by most to be sensible advice with extreme ideas and lumping all in together.
The article adds nothing other than further confusion.

Last edited 1 year ago by N Forster
Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

Still having the same problem.

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago

Yeah this happens to me all the time. I think it has to do with cached elements in your browser. Try forcing a full refresh on a page where you can’t comment : control + f5, or control + r depending on your OS – you can just do both.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Linda
Try these (In turn!)
Reload page
Reboot computer
Clear browser cache
Try another browser
Something will work. It has happened to me. Computers are irrational creatures.

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago

Perhaps the more interesting and important issue is the 50% drop in men’s fertility (sperm count) over the past 50 years. No one knows why this is happening. Some think it’s the environment – estrogens (pills) being dumped down the toilet and other drugs. Others point to the sorry physical shape that men are in today – fat, no exercise, smoking, the easy availability of drugs, etc. Perhaps, some men are realizing that to stay in shape is a good thing and in doing so, some take it too far. It could be as simple as that, and that it’s no so-called ‘Right wing’ phenomenon at all. Or perhaps men on the right see ‘diminishing manhood’ as an issue and ‘Lefties’ don’t care; Today, we have ‘Lefty stereotypes’ in the media and ads of the soft-spoken, wet-noodle, thin-and-no-physique techie who hasn’t seen daylight in years.

N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago

Yes, there is a crisis among men, especially the young. Unfortunately though most of the advice from progressives is for men to become more feminised, to act and think more like women. At the same time, any advice to grow up and take responsibility of characterised by progressives as “right wing” or even worse.
This article simply reinforces this view conflating what would be considered by most to be sensible advice with extreme ideas and lumping all in together.
The article adds nothing other than further confusion.

Last edited 1 year ago by N Forster
Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

Still having the same problem.

Emre S
Emre S
1 year ago

Yeah this happens to me all the time. I think it has to do with cached elements in your browser. Try forcing a full refresh on a page where you can’t comment : control + f5, or control + r depending on your OS – you can just do both.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

“And it’s a mentality that allows the manosphere to gleefully join the progressive Left in bidding farewell to any of the remaining civil norms that facilitate debate and compromise.”
Is that not rather the point. The Left have never had any interest in civil norms, debate and compromise and at the moment they seem to holds all the levers of power. So what is the point in debate and compromise. It conjures images of the Dutch journalist trying to reason with the Islamic extremist while he was being stabbed to death

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Exactly. We should have no compunction whatsoever in treating woke ar_seholes with visceral rudeness. We’ve had enough of roadblocks, censorship, anti-white racism, and sadistic paedophilia.

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

A fine example of right wing tolerance!

Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

That isn’t right-wing you mental infant, it’s a statement of facts that you characterize, foolishly, as intolerance. This is exactly why the left is only taken seriously from the sense that they hold all the levers of power to push their insane ideologies onto people who don’t want it. They want to normalize their deviance, their degeneracy, and their demoralization wherever they can along with your stupid smarm notwithstanding.

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

You seem extremely angry – perhaps a workout will do you good?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

You seem extremely stupid – perhaps an education will do you good?

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Quite a few angry people punching hard at straw men [aka ‘liberals’, ‘paedophiles’, etc] in the comments. I think they need quite a bit more than a workout to improve their outlooks. Not to mention their reasoning skills..

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

You seem extremely stupid – perhaps an education will do you good?

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Quite a few angry people punching hard at straw men [aka ‘liberals’, ‘paedophiles’, etc] in the comments. I think they need quite a bit more than a workout to improve their outlooks. Not to mention their reasoning skills..

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Thanks for dealing with the woke uuanker.

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

You seem extremely angry – perhaps a workout will do you good?

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Thanks for dealing with the woke uuanker.

Yamamoto Isoroku
Yamamoto Isoroku
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Do you think speaking out against anti-White racism and pedophilia is right-wing intolerance? So you are one of the anti-White racists and pedo. Hmm…what a weird way of exposing yourself like this. Congrats

Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

That isn’t right-wing you mental infant, it’s a statement of facts that you characterize, foolishly, as intolerance. This is exactly why the left is only taken seriously from the sense that they hold all the levers of power to push their insane ideologies onto people who don’t want it. They want to normalize their deviance, their degeneracy, and their demoralization wherever they can along with your stupid smarm notwithstanding.

Yamamoto Isoroku
Yamamoto Isoroku
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Do you think speaking out against anti-White racism and pedophilia is right-wing intolerance? So you are one of the anti-White racists and pedo. Hmm…what a weird way of exposing yourself like this. Congrats

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago
Reply to  Richard Craven

A fine example of right wing tolerance!

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

Highly amusing coming from people who regard Donald Trump as a genius.

Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

So tell us Graeme, what is your contribution to society other than incoherent envy and jealousy?

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

Envy and jealousy? Why don’t you show us where I have displayed either of those?
Why, in fact, would I be envious of anyone, but especially of the type of people who think Donald Trump has anything to offer the world other than sexual assault and tax fraud?

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Where’s the independent thinking I thought I was going to get from a website called “Unherd”? Too many foaming-at-the-mouth comments from unhinged, angry men slinging the same kind of crap I can get on Twitter, only more succinct there.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Where’s the independent thinking I thought I was going to get from a website called “Unherd”? Too many foaming-at-the-mouth comments from unhinged, angry men slinging the same kind of crap I can get on Twitter, only more succinct there.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago

What’s yours?

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

Envy and jealousy? Why don’t you show us where I have displayed either of those?
Why, in fact, would I be envious of anyone, but especially of the type of people who think Donald Trump has anything to offer the world other than sexual assault and tax fraud?

Nona Yubiz
Nona Yubiz
1 year ago

What’s yours?

Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

So tell us Graeme, what is your contribution to society other than incoherent envy and jealousy?

N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago

The left that I grew up with certainly did believe in civil norms, owing far more to the Methodist Chapel than it did Marx.
Sadly those days are behind us.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Depends n your age I suppose, but from the 1960s generation onwards they nothing but contempt for civil norms

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Depends n your age I suppose, but from the 1960s generation onwards they nothing but contempt for civil norms

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

Exactly. We should have no compunction whatsoever in treating woke ar_seholes with visceral rudeness. We’ve had enough of roadblocks, censorship, anti-white racism, and sadistic paedophilia.

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

Highly amusing coming from people who regard Donald Trump as a genius.

N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago

The left that I grew up with certainly did believe in civil norms, owing far more to the Methodist Chapel than it did Marx.
Sadly those days are behind us.

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

I’m piggy-backing off your comment for the same reason as Linda below, and add my signature to her apology.
I’m right of centre, and like going to the gym and being reasonably big, strong and fit in a light-heavy/cruiser sort of way, but I would really hate to look like that!

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Looking at young Master Bateman’s photo, he must therefore be very Left-wing indeed….

Margaret F
Margaret F
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

LOL Master-Bateman indeed! Can’t Unherd find something better to print than public wanking like this?

Margaret F
Margaret F
1 year ago
Reply to  Peter Joy

LOL Master-Bateman indeed! Can’t Unherd find something better to print than public wanking like this?

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Agreed…it is too easy to pull out references to various American ‘Great Awakenings’ but this phenomenon of ‘Strong Guys’, if it is one, ain’t that.

Sudo Nim
Sudo Nim
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

To stand up a proposition, this is one of those articles that takes a handful of extreme characters and presents them as the standard bearer and prototypes of the audience at large. Fun reading, I appreciate the effort, but completely failed to make any case, other than the author is visibly upset about something.

Jim Stanton
Jim Stanton
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

This was a bit of a waste of time and in my opinion doesn’t address the issue at all.
The decline of men has been going on for over 50 years and it’s been planned that way. Young men, brought up in households without fathers in it has been persuasive since the 1970s. How are boys supposed to learn how to be men without one around to show them?
Does that mean that all fathers are good teachers? No, of course not but before no fault divorce and the State’s assumption that women are better parents simply because they have vaginas in a divorce, most households had men in them and so even if you weren’t fortunate enough to have a “good dad” there were other men around to emulate. This is long gone.
This is a result of social engineering first tried out on the black population. They’ve been without fathers in the home since the 1940s. Sadly, because of the proliferation of racism in America, few noticed or cared. Once the elimination of fathers in the home was found to be so effective it was rolled out the the population at large and began effecting white men too.
The feminisation of men was needed to trasfer our society into a mass of “feelers” who are only worried about how they feel and how others can make them feel bad. Facts no longer are important. If the truth hurts and it often does then we can’t discuss it as it might make someone else feel bad. This has it’s own built in censorship which we should all be concerned about.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Stanton

I agree with pretty much everything you said except for it being “planned that way”.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Stanton

I agree with pretty much everything you said except for it being “planned that way”.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Susan Faludi covered the same geography with far more depth and sympathy in “Stiffed” back in the late 90’s. This nothing but glib and shallow meandering around.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago

Agreed – I still have that book somewhere – I was amazed that a radical feminist had the wisdom to see what real damage aggressive feminism coupled with the PC movement was doing to the structure and sustainability of the family unit – smart gal – tis all come to be…

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago

Agreed – I still have that book somewhere – I was amazed that a radical feminist had the wisdom to see what real damage aggressive feminism coupled with the PC movement was doing to the structure and sustainability of the family unit – smart gal – tis all come to be…

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Just shows how terrified Progressives are of the Right’s resurgence. No effort to paint it as absurd and silly is spared — anything to avoid actually engaging with ideas that invariably win in any fair competition with liberalism. Just for the record, no, steroid abusing Neanderthals aren’t representative of the MAGA movement.

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

One would get far more out of starting Sun and Steel than reading this.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Sorry, N Foster, but again I’m having to piggy-back off another comment as again I have no facility to open a comment – it’s getting tiresome!

But enough of that. All the comments here, so far, have been very negative about this article, but I found it interesting; I’d never heard of this Liver guy until a previous article on UnHerd and this piece explained more about him and his ilk. By-the-way love his beard, can’t say the same for his torso though, but then I don’t imagine it’s supposed to appeal to women.

I think that all of this arises from a crisis of confidence among men, for so long it’s been all their way, and when physical strength was all inportant their sense of superiority was unchallenged, hence the desire to emphasis this strength. As the writer says there is no consensus on what a “real” man (or even a “real” woman) is, which is understandable as each is an individual, but among the men in my life these sorts of antics are laughable. I did once, a long time ago and in a different context, ask my husband what he thought distinguished a “real” man and his answer was simple – he provides for, loves and protects his family and does all he can to ensure the safety of his neighbours and country. When you come to think of it that’s what a “real” woman should do, too.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

“And it’s a mentality that allows the manosphere to gleefully join the progressive Left in bidding farewell to any of the remaining civil norms that facilitate debate and compromise.”
Is that not rather the point. The Left have never had any interest in civil norms, debate and compromise and at the moment they seem to holds all the levers of power. So what is the point in debate and compromise. It conjures images of the Dutch journalist trying to reason with the Islamic extremist while he was being stabbed to death

Last edited 1 year ago by Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

I’m piggy-backing off your comment for the same reason as Linda below, and add my signature to her apology.
I’m right of centre, and like going to the gym and being reasonably big, strong and fit in a light-heavy/cruiser sort of way, but I would really hate to look like that!

Peter Joy
Peter Joy
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Looking at young Master Bateman’s photo, he must therefore be very Left-wing indeed….

Cathy Carron
Cathy Carron
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Agreed…it is too easy to pull out references to various American ‘Great Awakenings’ but this phenomenon of ‘Strong Guys’, if it is one, ain’t that.

Sudo Nim
Sudo Nim
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

To stand up a proposition, this is one of those articles that takes a handful of extreme characters and presents them as the standard bearer and prototypes of the audience at large. Fun reading, I appreciate the effort, but completely failed to make any case, other than the author is visibly upset about something.

Jim Stanton
Jim Stanton
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

This was a bit of a waste of time and in my opinion doesn’t address the issue at all.
The decline of men has been going on for over 50 years and it’s been planned that way. Young men, brought up in households without fathers in it has been persuasive since the 1970s. How are boys supposed to learn how to be men without one around to show them?
Does that mean that all fathers are good teachers? No, of course not but before no fault divorce and the State’s assumption that women are better parents simply because they have vaginas in a divorce, most households had men in them and so even if you weren’t fortunate enough to have a “good dad” there were other men around to emulate. This is long gone.
This is a result of social engineering first tried out on the black population. They’ve been without fathers in the home since the 1940s. Sadly, because of the proliferation of racism in America, few noticed or cared. Once the elimination of fathers in the home was found to be so effective it was rolled out the the population at large and began effecting white men too.
The feminisation of men was needed to trasfer our society into a mass of “feelers” who are only worried about how they feel and how others can make them feel bad. Facts no longer are important. If the truth hurts and it often does then we can’t discuss it as it might make someone else feel bad. This has it’s own built in censorship which we should all be concerned about.

Jeff Cunningham
Jeff Cunningham
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Susan Faludi covered the same geography with far more depth and sympathy in “Stiffed” back in the late 90’s. This nothing but glib and shallow meandering around.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago
Reply to  N Forster

Just shows how terrified Progressives are of the Right’s resurgence. No effort to paint it as absurd and silly is spared — anything to avoid actually engaging with ideas that invariably win in any fair competition with liberalism. Just for the record, no, steroid abusing Neanderthals aren’t representative of the MAGA movement.

N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago

Very odd piece with the author determined to find links between exercise and being right wing.
Reading this was not time well spent. It was even less well time spent writing it.

Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago

Well, I read it. I even would go back often and try to figure out what the writer actually means in that paragraph I could not get hold of, and clicked on a lot of the weird gopher-hole links, and went down them a bit, but it just was not working for me.

I took away is this guy thinks ‘Trump’ means rightwing-crazy though – a kind of Confederate flag waving, Trouble making, Macho Incell, loser. He built this Trump follower straw man and then set out to call it derisive things and make it look bad for trying to be some kind of bewildered and lost macho caveman. I happen to do a quite aggressive workout daily, and am very MAGA, but at no point could I see myself, or any Trump Supporter I have ever known, in the picture he was trying to paint.

‘during the early days of the alt-Right’s emergence as a media phenomenon, he assumed I shared his belief that eating raw or rare meat is a radical political act. I do see it as political,

See, the above is the problem. This guy is so totally sucked into the world of body building, weird diet, Loons, he does not realize they are not even on the regular person’s radar. They make an analogy for no group as they are just weird outliers. The eating of raw meat as a political act is just not a thing anyone notices.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Would post this separately, but unfortunately, I can’t seem to post unless it’s in a reply.
If – Rudyard Kipling
If you can keep your head when all about you   
   Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,   
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
   But make allowance for their doubting too;   
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
   Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
   And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;   
   If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;   
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
   And treat those two impostors just the same;   
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
   Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
   And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
   And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
   And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
   To serve your turn long after they are gone,   
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
   Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,   
   Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
   If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
   With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,   
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,   
   And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Last edited 1 year ago by Julian Farrows
Malvin Marombedza
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Lovely poem. Reminds me very much of school. Every boy had to learn it by heart. Can still recite the poem to a “T” after all those years.

Malvin Marombedza
Malvin Marombedza
1 year ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

Lovely poem. Reminds me very much of school. Every boy had to learn it by heart. Can still recite the poem to a “T” after all those years.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
1 year ago
Reply to  Jonas Moze

Would post this separately, but unfortunately, I can’t seem to post unless it’s in a reply.
If – Rudyard Kipling
If you can keep your head when all about you   
   Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,   
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
   But make allowance for their doubting too;   
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
   Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
   And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;   
   If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;   
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
   And treat those two impostors just the same;   
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
   Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
   And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
   And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
   And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
   To serve your turn long after they are gone,   
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
   Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,   
   Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
   If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
   With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,   
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,   
   And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Last edited 1 year ago by Julian Farrows
Jonas Moze
Jonas Moze
1 year ago

Well, I read it. I even would go back often and try to figure out what the writer actually means in that paragraph I could not get hold of, and clicked on a lot of the weird gopher-hole links, and went down them a bit, but it just was not working for me.

I took away is this guy thinks ‘Trump’ means rightwing-crazy though – a kind of Confederate flag waving, Trouble making, Macho Incell, loser. He built this Trump follower straw man and then set out to call it derisive things and make it look bad for trying to be some kind of bewildered and lost macho caveman. I happen to do a quite aggressive workout daily, and am very MAGA, but at no point could I see myself, or any Trump Supporter I have ever known, in the picture he was trying to paint.

‘during the early days of the alt-Right’s emergence as a media phenomenon, he assumed I shared his belief that eating raw or rare meat is a radical political act. I do see it as political,

See, the above is the problem. This guy is so totally sucked into the world of body building, weird diet, Loons, he does not realize they are not even on the regular person’s radar. They make an analogy for no group as they are just weird outliers. The eating of raw meat as a political act is just not a thing anyone notices.

Kerry Davie
Kerry Davie
1 year ago

Oliver, get a proper job.

Kerry Davie
Kerry Davie
1 year ago

Oliver, get a proper job.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago

WTF
Get a life.

William Shaw
William Shaw
1 year ago

WTF
Get a life.

Philippe W
Philippe W
1 year ago

I feel this was written by, for and about people with much much much much more time than me.

Bruce Bridges
Bruce Bridges
1 year ago
Reply to  Philippe W

Agreed. The spiders web of various online personalities and apparent drama filtered through the author’s weird obsessions is just too boring for anybody to care about.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Philippe W

RK was an incredibly busy man with huge responsibiities and plenty of tragedy in his life _ watch the movie , or better read a book !! Those who dont make time to think etc etc etc

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  chris sullivan

oops – back to the article !!

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  chris sullivan

oops – back to the article !!

Bruce Bridges
Bruce Bridges
1 year ago
Reply to  Philippe W

Agreed. The spiders web of various online personalities and apparent drama filtered through the author’s weird obsessions is just too boring for anybody to care about.

chris sullivan
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Reply to  Philippe W

RK was an incredibly busy man with huge responsibiities and plenty of tragedy in his life _ watch the movie , or better read a book !! Those who dont make time to think etc etc etc

Philippe W
Philippe W
1 year ago

I feel this was written by, for and about people with much much much much more time than me.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Lunacy is not restricted to the “online right” All shades of political and personal madness are catered for on social media: Is this what the author is telling us?
My consoling thought is that mad people invariably destroy themselves, even as they visit their misery upon the rest of us. Stay sane and outlive them.

polidori redux
polidori redux
1 year ago

Lunacy is not restricted to the “online right” All shades of political and personal madness are catered for on social media: Is this what the author is telling us?
My consoling thought is that mad people invariably destroy themselves, even as they visit their misery upon the rest of us. Stay sane and outlive them.

Colin Baxter
Colin Baxter
1 year ago

Well it’s a good job he does strength training, as he’s straining so hard to make tenuous links
..
And, no, I don’t see the point of this article, either.

Colin Baxter
Colin Baxter
1 year ago

Well it’s a good job he does strength training, as he’s straining so hard to make tenuous links
..
And, no, I don’t see the point of this article, either.

Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago

Liver King was a moron. A moron who spent tens of thousands of dollars on the very chemicals he needed to hype his physique and lifestyle that in reality, he gets very little return on. Why? Because what he offered was unattainable to nearly all people. From his physique to his diet, all were rooted not in the Right, masculinity, or actual health. They were rooted in a money-making gimmick that was fraudulent. For you to impune the entire right on one or two guys is frankly absurd. Your attempt at trying to bridge the right with Hoppolite/Spartan-style lifestyles is cumbersome and frankly tiresome. This is nothing new. Why?
Well in your own words, “The subsequent physical rejuvenation of these sedentary males, formerly afflicted with the declining testosterone levels of the 21st century, would speak for itself.” You never ask why these testosterone levels are dropping. I’ll tell you why. There is a distinct and sequenced approach to how the Left has attacked masculinity in general, from genetic modifications of foods to promulgating vegetarian/vegan culture and lifestyles, and dietary restrictions which have led producers to modify foods that do not enhance male testosterone levels but include things like soy products that enhance estrogen levels in men instead that drop their T levels through food and changes in diet. Sedintarianism and the push to keep men in a perpetual state of adolescence through various media, social engineering, and peer-pressure campaigns, all the way to force-feeding vaccinations on the populace. And that’s just a start.
This is not a right-wing problem. This is a problem for people who are trying to cash in on people’s inability to take care of themselves. To become disciplined on their own so they won’t need “coaches” of any kind. We’ve taken the self-determination out of people that was ingrained in them and weeded it out through leftist indoctrination centers aka schools, through leftist media, through leftist government campaigns attacking maledom wherever it can. When you have entire swaths of culture calling masculinity toxic, while toxic feminity is in ascension, you have a problem. You don’t discuss any of this. Why? Because you’d know that your article won’t amount to the raw liver diet that the fraud eats without enhancement. Your linking of this guy to the right is that enhancement.

Last edited 1 year ago by Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
Methadras Aszlosis
1 year ago

Liver King was a moron. A moron who spent tens of thousands of dollars on the very chemicals he needed to hype his physique and lifestyle that in reality, he gets very little return on. Why? Because what he offered was unattainable to nearly all people. From his physique to his diet, all were rooted not in the Right, masculinity, or actual health. They were rooted in a money-making gimmick that was fraudulent. For you to impune the entire right on one or two guys is frankly absurd. Your attempt at trying to bridge the right with Hoppolite/Spartan-style lifestyles is cumbersome and frankly tiresome. This is nothing new. Why?
Well in your own words, “The subsequent physical rejuvenation of these sedentary males, formerly afflicted with the declining testosterone levels of the 21st century, would speak for itself.” You never ask why these testosterone levels are dropping. I’ll tell you why. There is a distinct and sequenced approach to how the Left has attacked masculinity in general, from genetic modifications of foods to promulgating vegetarian/vegan culture and lifestyles, and dietary restrictions which have led producers to modify foods that do not enhance male testosterone levels but include things like soy products that enhance estrogen levels in men instead that drop their T levels through food and changes in diet. Sedintarianism and the push to keep men in a perpetual state of adolescence through various media, social engineering, and peer-pressure campaigns, all the way to force-feeding vaccinations on the populace. And that’s just a start.
This is not a right-wing problem. This is a problem for people who are trying to cash in on people’s inability to take care of themselves. To become disciplined on their own so they won’t need “coaches” of any kind. We’ve taken the self-determination out of people that was ingrained in them and weeded it out through leftist indoctrination centers aka schools, through leftist media, through leftist government campaigns attacking maledom wherever it can. When you have entire swaths of culture calling masculinity toxic, while toxic feminity is in ascension, you have a problem. You don’t discuss any of this. Why? Because you’d know that your article won’t amount to the raw liver diet that the fraud eats without enhancement. Your linking of this guy to the right is that enhancement.

Last edited 1 year ago by Methadras Aszlosis
Russell L
Russell L
1 year ago

What does the author mean by ‘IQ Test silliness’? It’s not clear.

Mark Farmer
Mark Farmer
1 year ago
Reply to  Russell L


.amongst many other unclear and presumed references.

Mark Farmer
Mark Farmer
1 year ago
Reply to  Russell L


.amongst many other unclear and presumed references.

Russell L
Russell L
1 year ago

What does the author mean by ‘IQ Test silliness’? It’s not clear.

Morgan Watkins
Morgan Watkins
1 year ago

I understand the concerns but I’m not sure there is a centre to hold against the new woke/progressiveswarm/whatever it is exactly
 it’s troubling as I struggle to know if there is an option other than fighting back with pride? I suppose the new right are offering that sense of purpose and salvation. The centre doesn’t. It just seems to present the grounds that we all know will lead back to where we are


Mark Farmer
Mark Farmer
1 year ago
Reply to  Morgan Watkins

Yes MHW – As Yeats wrote in The Second Coming (nominally about the the inversions which John the Revelator cites regarding the Apocalypse but actually about the rise of the Right)
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Mark Farmer
Mark Farmer
1 year ago
Reply to  Morgan Watkins

Yes MHW – As Yeats wrote in The Second Coming (nominally about the the inversions which John the Revelator cites regarding the Apocalypse but actually about the rise of the Right)
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Morgan Watkins
Morgan Watkins
1 year ago

I understand the concerns but I’m not sure there is a centre to hold against the new woke/progressiveswarm/whatever it is exactly
 it’s troubling as I struggle to know if there is an option other than fighting back with pride? I suppose the new right are offering that sense of purpose and salvation. The centre doesn’t. It just seems to present the grounds that we all know will lead back to where we are


J Morgan
J Morgan
1 year ago

I’d never heard of Raw Egg Nationalist until listening to Alex Kaschuta’s podcast with him recently. He did make the point that it’s not just men who would benefit from eating real foods, basically keto. Women who do it find hormonal disregulation such as PCOS resolves. Both sexes are badly served by government advice on diet

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  J Morgan

My (adult) daughter has just been lecturing me on the benefits of high protein for longevity. Seems I should be aiming at 100 – 150 gr a day. I am a 74 yr old woman. I’m all for it, we feed our dogs loads of protein and they live well into their teens. Only trouble being stage three kidney diseased I’m not sure I should be upping my protein. Else I would, certainly. My daughter has been keto for years.

Vici C
Vici C
1 year ago
Reply to  J Morgan

My (adult) daughter has just been lecturing me on the benefits of high protein for longevity. Seems I should be aiming at 100 – 150 gr a day. I am a 74 yr old woman. I’m all for it, we feed our dogs loads of protein and they live well into their teens. Only trouble being stage three kidney diseased I’m not sure I should be upping my protein. Else I would, certainly. My daughter has been keto for years.

J Morgan
J Morgan
1 year ago

I’d never heard of Raw Egg Nationalist until listening to Alex Kaschuta’s podcast with him recently. He did make the point that it’s not just men who would benefit from eating real foods, basically keto. Women who do it find hormonal disregulation such as PCOS resolves. Both sexes are badly served by government advice on diet

Senator Smith
Senator Smith
1 year ago

Perhaps I can assist. The author is himself situated somewhere in the post-left universe having hosted the “Whats Left” podcast together with Aimee Terese, as is Malcom Kyeyune who is also mentioned in the article. Essentially these people are disaffected leftists who consider that the Left is basically a make-work scheme for the bureaucratic managerialists and has thereby abandoned any attempt to improve conditions for the working class.
As such their politics are eclectic and perhaps a touch bewildering for the Spectator set amongst the audience here, who are probably more comfortable with the traditional left-right divide and would likely prefer yet another Douglas Murray editorial about free speech on college campuses.
I dare say this article would be somewhat hard to follow if you weren’t already familiar with the characters being cited. Essentially its a critique of the millenarian cultists on the Right who have popped up recently that the author evidently considers to be political dead ends. Its not a critique of the Right in general or an attempt to argue in favour of Leftist causes, which some commenters have evidently taken to be the case.

Last edited 1 year ago by Senator Smith
Senator Smith
Senator Smith
1 year ago

Perhaps I can assist. The author is himself situated somewhere in the post-left universe having hosted the “Whats Left” podcast together with Aimee Terese, as is Malcom Kyeyune who is also mentioned in the article. Essentially these people are disaffected leftists who consider that the Left is basically a make-work scheme for the bureaucratic managerialists and has thereby abandoned any attempt to improve conditions for the working class.
As such their politics are eclectic and perhaps a touch bewildering for the Spectator set amongst the audience here, who are probably more comfortable with the traditional left-right divide and would likely prefer yet another Douglas Murray editorial about free speech on college campuses.
I dare say this article would be somewhat hard to follow if you weren’t already familiar with the characters being cited. Essentially its a critique of the millenarian cultists on the Right who have popped up recently that the author evidently considers to be political dead ends. Its not a critique of the Right in general or an attempt to argue in favour of Leftist causes, which some commenters have evidently taken to be the case.

Last edited 1 year ago by Senator Smith
Rachel Simpson
Rachel Simpson
1 year ago

Reading this alongside Matthew Crawford’s essay on the politics of masturbation is to see one explained by the other.
Self care and some kind of Retvrn by men is always going to be labelled right wing because it is not progressive: they are supposed to be wanking, not looking after themselves.
Pascal Emmanuel Goby has written about how Porn is damaging men by looking at how it shapes the brain A Science-Based Case for Ending the Porn Epidemic find it on the website of the Ethics and Public Policy Center.
If young men start to see this in themselves they will want to stop and need to replace it with something, hence some go bodybuilding, meat and raw egg mad.

Rachel Simpson
Rachel Simpson
1 year ago

Reading this alongside Matthew Crawford’s essay on the politics of masturbation is to see one explained by the other.
Self care and some kind of Retvrn by men is always going to be labelled right wing because it is not progressive: they are supposed to be wanking, not looking after themselves.
Pascal Emmanuel Goby has written about how Porn is damaging men by looking at how it shapes the brain A Science-Based Case for Ending the Porn Epidemic find it on the website of the Ethics and Public Policy Center.
If young men start to see this in themselves they will want to stop and need to replace it with something, hence some go bodybuilding, meat and raw egg mad.

Jorge Espinha
Jorge Espinha
1 year ago

A similar article could be written about the many “back to nature” loonies that seem ubiquitous these days. Many have no right or left ideology. Many consider the human species a plague. Others have fondness for how native Americans lived before the arrival of Europeans. At the end of the article the author refers to IQ silliness. The IQ problem is something both the right and the left have a big problem facing. IQ isn’t perfect but there is human intelectual ability and however you measure it, it’s not distributed equally and it doesn’t change . The same way no amount or training will make a male with 160 cm grow to be 200cm tall. It’s unfortunate and inteligence and drive are things we are born with much like beauty and height. I’m lacking in both. I wish I was more intelligent and had more drive. University show me that some men and women are simply more intelligent and capable than others . A humbling experience

Jorge Espinha
Jorge Espinha
1 year ago

A similar article could be written about the many “back to nature” loonies that seem ubiquitous these days. Many have no right or left ideology. Many consider the human species a plague. Others have fondness for how native Americans lived before the arrival of Europeans. At the end of the article the author refers to IQ silliness. The IQ problem is something both the right and the left have a big problem facing. IQ isn’t perfect but there is human intelectual ability and however you measure it, it’s not distributed equally and it doesn’t change . The same way no amount or training will make a male with 160 cm grow to be 200cm tall. It’s unfortunate and inteligence and drive are things we are born with much like beauty and height. I’m lacking in both. I wish I was more intelligent and had more drive. University show me that some men and women are simply more intelligent and capable than others . A humbling experience

Rick Abrams
Rick Abrams
1 year ago

The dichotomy is part of Western Civilization. That does not it good. It is still bad, very bad, but denying the role of dichotomous thinking is to ignore an extreme strong aspect of our current troubles.
http://bit.ly/2yxk1IT   June 21, 2018, CityWatch, The Dangers of Dichotomy: The Saved vs. The Damned, by Richard Lee Abrams   

Also, dichotomy makes $$$. When politicos like Nancy Pelosi or Donald Trump can inject fear and hated into politics, they can make a fortune.
https://bit.ly/3fUBy1z      April 8, 2021, CityWatch, Hate Money Stalks America, by Richard Lee Abrams  

Richard Craven
Richard Craven
1 year ago

He looks absolutely offal.

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

Incels who think Donald Trump is the epitome of masculinity – who cares?

Yamamoto Isoroku
Yamamoto Isoroku
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Lol, you’re such a pathetic lowlife.

N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

I get the impression you’re not very old.

Yamamoto Isoroku
Yamamoto Isoroku
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

Lol, you’re such a pathetic lowlife.

N Forster
N Forster
1 year ago
Reply to  Graeme McNeil

I get the impression you’re not very old.

Graeme McNeil
Graeme McNeil
1 year ago

Incels who think Donald Trump is the epitome of masculinity – who cares?