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Is it the Tories who are doomed? Labour has a coalition designed for winning in 2040

Credit: Getty


May 10, 2021   6 mins

One of the least well-known stories about Boris Johnson’s time at Oxford involves an incident one Easter when, as he was pondering suicide, a stray dog followed him home. When Boris returned to his study, the animal transformed into Mephistopheles and there offered to make everything he wants in life come true (with one tiny catch).

How else do we explain the Prime Minister’s incredibly good fortune, which now seems likely to carry him to another election victory in a couple of years’ time? Barely 12 months after almost imitating his hero Pericles by dying of the plague, Boris is unassailable, credited not just with the successful vaccine programme, but more bizarrely, ending the European Super League, thereby making him the saviour of English football on top of everything else.

But fortuna has most favoured Boris with his timing; he’s leader of the Tory Party at a time when political changes beyond his control are acting to make it invincible. Ten years ago, its primacy wouldn’t have been possible, and neither will it be in another ten.

While the Government has no doubt benefited from the vaccine effect, the underlying cause of last week’s Hartlepool result is the Great Realignment of politics: in short, the political divide is no longer about economics but values.

There are various reasons for this shift, but globalisation is the central theme; a process that has been speeding up since this epoch began in December 2001 with China’s admission to the WTO. That Hartlepool, or Blyth Valley or Don Valley are now to be found in the Conservative camp isn’t inevitable, but it is highly probable; neither Jeremy Corbyn nor Keir Starmer nor Attlee himself could have stopped it.

Following last week’s results, UnHerd featured voices from the three wings of the former Labour coalition, which you might call the Corbynite, Blairite and Blue Labour factions. This realignment is taking place partly because the latter has dropped out of the coalition, or been pushed out; as Paul Embery argued, the two other wings essentially have a great deal in common, as much as they like fighting on social media.

They are a logical coalition, broadly sharing an internationalist and socially liberal worldview. The problem is that, without Blue Labour, they don’t have enough voters to win, a problem aggravated by the fact that progressives tend to self-segregate geographically, which is extremely unhelpful in a first-past-the-post system.

On top of this, the radical Left, often too interested in politics and their own moral purity, are very off-putting to a large number of voters and bad at compromise and coalition-building — more fortuna for Boris.

Yet if current demographic trends continue, these two groups will have enough voters to win. Not by the next election, but maybe the one after. For despite Johnson’s victory last week, Labour now has a coalition designed for winning in the Britain of 2040. They have strong support among the young, unmarried, renters and ethnic minorities — all the groups which are demographically ascendent.

In particular, the age gap is the most worrying thing for Conservatives. The idea that most people start off as excitable socialists who want to change the world and darken into cynical conservatives is historically exaggerated. Thatcher did very well among 18-24-year-olds, for instance, and the under-30s aren’t anywhere near as rebellious as popular culture wants them to be. Most in fact tend to be quite conformist, following the prevailing culture noises around them – which is exactly what should worry the Tories. Crucially, their values aren’t shifting as they age; unless that changes, then at some point the demographic balance will tip towards Labour, and quite heavily.

This was the underlying theme of my book, Small Men on the Wrong Side of History, published with rather unfortunate timing just months after Boris’s huge election victory. For the time being, however, this trend won’t win elections because it is concentrated among certain professions, the university-educated, and the metropolitan. That’s a minority of people, in an even smaller minority of seats, but history shows that populations tend to adopt the belief systems of high-status members over time. Twitter isn’t Britain, but in a generation or so it probably will be.

I’ve often read the comforting argument that the young will rebel against the “woke wave” — but there is little evidence of that, except in small clusters. Few of us are naturally non-conforming or rebellious, because most of us don’t want to be unpopular and having unpopular political beliefs take a toll on wellbeing. Young people won’t rebel against wokery anymore than young people in late 4th century Rome rebelled against Christianity. And the new religion is stronger and more powerful, so much so that it can successfully dictate what society’s taboos are, and what is beyond the pale to say. No ideology can compete with that.

At some point, the “woke” worldview which has come to the fore in the United States since 2013, will start to spread enough to become electorally significant in Britain, and there will be a tipping point where liberals and progressives together will win. This will happen not long into the future: just as the Tories won an overwhelming majority in the Tees Valley last week, and even made gains in Durham, so they lost Tunbridge Wells and Cambridgeshire, a sign of things to come as the disappearance of younger Conservative voters in the professions begins to turn south-east England red.

Yet while much of this is to do with values and identity, there are also more banal material explanations. Recounting the awful conditions facing Russia’s urban underclass before the revolution, Orlando Figes described in A People’s Tragedy how Moscow landlords were able to prevent the authorities from building more homes for the desperate workers: “Such was the demand for accommodation that workers thought nothing of spending half their income on rent.” Only half their income, a twenty-something Londoner would complain, like the proverbial Monty Python Yorkshireman: When I was growing up, we paid 60%!

There is a noticeable link between high housing costs and voting for Left-wing parties, partly because affordable housing encourages people to start families, which makes them more conservative for a whole array of reasons: everything from a declining belief in the blank slate — a cornerstone of progressive thinking — to support for more traditional gender roles to economic conservatism.

Voting also maps on to population density; the more people per square mile, the more Left-wing people become on average. Meanwhile, urban people adopt more of the character traits associated with being progressive; they’re more likely to be mentally ill, for example, which correlates with liberalism, more likely to be sexually progressive, innovative and open to new experiences, and trusting of a wider circle of people.

There is also the effect of people’s social milieus; if everyone around you believes something, most people come to adopt those beliefs. Anti-Toryism is almost a social norm for young people — something accelerated by housing costs — but at some point the social network becomes so anti-Tory that even home-owning does not flip a person’s politics.

The trend I’ve outlined is, of course, Londoncentric — for now — but then things are different outside the capital; for all the chatter about the North being deprived, the sort of people who vote Tory in the Red Wall (and even more so in the Midlands) are doing okay. They can afford their own home and car, with enough income to afford a decent holiday and gym membership, while their university-educated contemporaries in London are living in squalid flat shares in their 30s, without any prospect of affording a family, their politics getting redder and their hair bluer.

Both these cultural and economic trends are going against the Conservatives; house inflation continues to rise and fertility continues to fall — yet despite this Britain’s population is growing and therefore becoming more urban.

And here is another long-term advantage for the Left: immigration and its longer-term effects. While modern progressivism is increasingly repulsive to a lot of minority voters, in every western democracy the Left have a plurality or majority among non-white populations (although this varies from Canada at one end, where it has been very narrow, to France, where the gap is huge). This is because the Left-Right divide is essentially about the conflict between national and global identities, and there is little that conservatives can do to overturn that advantage (although they can, and should, reduce it by being moderate).

To put it simply, demographically Britain under 30 is very different to Britain over 50. It’s going to be more diverse, more urban, more single, more university-educated and more impoverished by rental prices. Its values are completely different.

So, unless something is done about housing costs, this wave of disappointment will wash away today’s Tory advantage. So far, the best proposal has been Policy Exchange’s Street Votes, which would potentially create millions of new homes without touching the Green Belt, while also making lots of suburban homeowners immensely rich. That one idea, more than any other, might lay the ground for a future Tory home-owning majority.

In the meantime, as housing inflation sadly denies more people the chance of a decent life, we will see the Tory desert in overpriced London constituencies start to spread outwards. And when the time comes, Labour will almost certainly capture once-unimaginable areas of the Home Counties and Thames Valley, just as the Democrats win almost all the most expensive ZIP codes in the US.

But for now Boris can kick around and enjoy his great advantage, with an enfeebled opposition whose values repulse much of the country, knowing that he truly has the luck of the devil. But Mephistopheles, and demography, will come for him and his party eventually.


Ed West’s book Tory Boy is published by Constable

edwest

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Vikram Sharma
Vikram Sharma
3 years ago

There is no inevitability as described here. If the Tories manage two more terms and stay focussed on their task, they could turn this tide. A few suggestions:

  • explain the difference between managed skilled migration with strict controls against the Ponzi scheme of ever increasing unskilled migration. Do this with facts and figures.
  • detoxify universities. the left has completely occupied public organisations with a common purpose. Insist on political neutrality as non-negotiable
  • fearlessly expose voter fraud in certain communities and constituencies, and the low level corruption that infests those biradaris. Don’t be scared of being called racists for pointing out illegality.
  • challenge the left on wokery. Demand to know where the left stands on pulling down statues, renaming streets, decolonising the curriculum etc. If as they claim the culture wars have been started by the right, let the left refuse to engage by saying that these are not priority matters for the Left.
  • speak up for the country. Big it up for what it is- a tiny island with few natural resources that managed to become an empire through sheer grit, determination and ingenuity.
  • refuse to judge the past my modern standards. Just refuse.
  • treat voters like grown ups. Have a conversation and don’t hector.
  • don’t let the SNP get away by playing the victim card. Many Scots know the benefits of the Union but some are blinded by anti-English bias. They can be won over. Or at least worth trying
  • finally, stay as far away as you can from transgender and identity politics. Just refuse to engage with the matter.
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Respectfully, I think the point of the article is that all of the things you suggest in the above are being rejected by the demographic and cultural changes that are already becoming dominant.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Fair and transparent voting practices are certainly a victim of demographic and cultural changes. The Tories need to severely restrict postal voting, the expansion of which was introduced by Labour to exploit third world voting practices.
Moreover, largely as a consequence of Labour’s enthusiasm for the foibles of certain groups, there are now 10 or 11 Tory councillors in Rotherham, where previously there had been none.

Last edited 3 years ago by Fraser Bailey
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Not sure I follow. Are you saying there’s a problem with postal vote fraud? I’m sure there have been incidences – Tower Hamlets in 2014 comes to mind – but I’m not sure there is inherently a problem with it in principle.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

There are no problems with many things in principle. But it’s the practice that counts.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

To throw doubt on voting practices without evidence, to say that elections could be fraudulent just for the sake of saying it, is irresponsible and anarchic.
Let’s just go to voting by internet and complain about that.

Quentin Vole
Quentin Vole
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

‘Absentee’ voting, whether postal or via the Internet, is a significant problem for any democratic system if it becomes sufficiently widespread. There’s a strong reason for having a secret ballot – neither coercion nor bribery can force me to vote in a particular way. But secret ballots are not possible if the vote is not taking place in a private location (a polling booth).

Giulia Khawaja
Giulia Khawaja
3 years ago
Reply to  Quentin Vole

Why is it so difficult to upvote.

Sean MacSweeney
Sean MacSweeney
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Certain “communities” don’t share our values of fairness when it comes to voting, I won’t name them, but we all know who they are

Ian Wigg
Ian Wigg
3 years ago

Labour?

Charlie Walker
Charlie Walker
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Did anyone see Boris’s answer to Adam from Business Insider’s “question” re voter ID?
“Nonsense”
Almost as good as Hancock’s answer to Laura Kuenssberg last week

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

The problem in principle and in practice is that it is far more open to fraud and coercion.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

Very true, but there may be some good news on this front. Apparently the govt is bringing in photo ID for voting, to be announced in tomorrow’s Queen’s speech. This should deprive Labour of a few more ill gotten seats. Just last week a number of people turned up to vote only to be told that they had already voted. One of them was an election lawyer!

Last edited 3 years ago by Fraser Bailey
Kremlington Swan
Kremlington Swan
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

I really don’t see why all this technology is needed.
Every voter is sent a card. Take that card with you to the polling station and have your name crossed off.
There may be ways to defraud this system, but I would have thought a lot of effort would be required, and any successes would have marginal impact.
Taking your card to a polling station should be the minimum level of effort required of a voter.
Frankly, if you can’t be bothered to make that small effort the democratic process is better off without your input.

Derek M
Derek M
3 years ago

But you don’t have to take it

Johnny Sutherland
Johnny Sutherland
3 years ago
Reply to  Derek M

Not at present but I think the idea is a suggestion not what currently happens.

Jean Fothers
Jean Fothers
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Also apparently, this “conservative” govt is thinking of bringing in votes for 16 year-olds.
Have they learned nothing from Scotland and snp?

Ann Ceely
Ann Ceely
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Ive already got 2 voter-ids – Passport and Driving License

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

This is a more responsible way of saying it.

mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Postal voting is wrong in principle because it is not transparent. Anyone could have bought or stolen the vote and there is no way to tell. Casting your ballot in person is not immune to threats and bribes but a truly secret ballot cannot be achieved by postal votes. The only postal votes allowed should be those unable to get to the polls. This may be due to illness or they are working overseas or offshore etc. Then they would need to place a blank slip given them by an electoral official into a sealed envelope in plain site, expensive, but worth it IMO. Bridari got our local ward councillors elected last week and some of the vote was harvested along clan lines, some on genuine enthusiasm for our excellent local councillors. They are not Labour.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  mike otter

My thoughts entirely, A ”Remainer ” ”I’ve Voted Twice” In EU referendum ,once in london & in Oxford home..”student bragged in June 2016,when I was an Independent in Local Ward by election….I think the Article is fallacious,.. Greens are eating into loony ‘left’ Vote &lib-dems.. ‘SDP’ eating into moderate left Vote , ‘Reform’ into Tories. in future…However Dopey Starmer should see Council victories in Bristol & Oxford,(Chipping Norton) are because Tories are Changing Rural Planning Laws Not Popular…Concreting over England’s farms,Meadows,Grasslands etc…

Last edited 3 years ago by Robin Lambert
Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Lambert

Not that tired old concreting over England nonsense again, please. It’s just not true.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42554635.amp

Dominic S
Dominic S
3 years ago

Given that its mini-cities like Brighton and Bristol going Green it can’t be concreting the countryside that’s the issue there.

Simon Baggley
Simon Baggley
3 years ago

You reference the BBC

Tom Fox
Tom Fox
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Baggley

You only need to google ‘britain from space at night’ to see that that isn’t true. I’ll try and paste a link.comment image



Last edited 3 years ago by Tom Fox
Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago

You are talking Nonsense,the BBC is inaccurate 7% of West midlands was built on last year, See CPRE,Migration watch… ..

David J
David J
3 years ago

Fly with me over the Oxfordshire Cotswolds, and I will show you market towns and villages growing like crazy. All turning into commuter havens, with few alternatives to private transport.

William meadows
William meadows
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

If you can’t get off your but, once every two years and vote, that’s your problem. I don’t want to be ruled by the aphthy party. Postal votes for the ill and the over 80s only.

Jim Jones
Jim Jones
3 years ago

How would you determine who truly needs a postal vote though whatever system you devise would be basically just be a waste of money

Richard Lord
Richard Lord
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

How can it be sensible that you can turn up to a polling station with no poll card or ID, state a name and address (available on a public register) and place a vote? If you’re registered in two places ie students, it’s possible (although illegal) to vote twice in a national election.

The current system is wide open to abuse and needs updating urgently.

Bertie B
Bertie B
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Had to upvote as a counter measure – you guys sound like you have been listening too closely to Trump! Just because people who might use postal votes don’t equally support both sides of the debate doesn’t make them fraudulent. If theres fraud – prove it.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Bertie B

And how do you suggest we do that may I ask?

For a state that can’t even arrest & charge the killer of Ms Ashli Babbitt, despite the overwhelming video evidence, one must conclude that the Rule of Law has been suspended, possibly forever.

Consummatum est.

Ian Wigg
Ian Wigg
3 years ago
Reply to  Bertie B

It doesn’t matter whether postal voting benefits Labour, Conservative or The Monster Raving Loony Party. If it allows relatively easy voting fraud then it should be banned except for strictly prescribed circumstances.

Having said that, it does beg the question as to why rather than being a cross party concern, it’s the left which don’t want to see any restrictions on it (actually want to increase the availability) whereas the right want to restrict it.

Couldn’t be that it is beneficial to the Left?

Suggestion for simple method of identification.

At polling station enter NI number and post code. If validated machine issues a polling slip. Not foolproof but way better than nothing and relatively cheap with no “state surveillance” connotations.

Saul D
Saul D
3 years ago
Reply to  Bertie B

For elections, like many administrative processes, the burden of proof is on the election officials to show the election was fair. Hence observed voting, observed counting, recounts and rules over chain of custody and transparency.
If there is a claim of fraud, then the election officials ensure they can demonstrate every process, procedure and count was done correctly.
If something smells, it is not for the accuser to prove their case, but for the election officials to demonstrate thoroughly that there were no issues and the claim has no basis.

Giulia Khawaja
Giulia Khawaja
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Certain groups of people subscribe to voting patterns endemic in less democratically advanced societies.

Chris Hopwood
Chris Hopwood
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

……..but in the West Midlands the (successful) Tory Mayoral candidate had been urging people to postally vote for at least the last couple of months

Ian Wigg
Ian Wigg
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Hopwood

When in Rome

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

But Vikram outlines how those demographic and cultural changes  can be successfully prevented, before they happen. In short, make wokery ‘uncool’ and deeply reprehensible for the younger people. A lot of sufficiently intelligent, educated youngs are leftists due to peer pressure, compulsive conformism, cultural insecurity. They will remain trapped in it until *someone* has the courage to point out the emperor has no clothes. (By ‘someone’ i mean the education system / media etc., not us lone individual voices in comment sections.)

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

But what will really happen if ‘wokery’ isn’t made uncool? Will it really be the end of society as we know it or just a slightly different version of it where people are more accepting of racial, cultural and gender differences and diversity?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

But it’s wokery who is not accepting of racial, cultural etc. differences at all. The wokes insist that no such differences exist, all cultures are somehow indiscriminately “equal”.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

Woke is a slippery term. You define woke according to most extreme interpretation possible. I am extremely critical of the excesses of wokeness but would nonetheless consider myself woke. I am willing to sincerely listen to others with a different experience to my own and I am interested in learning about colonialism and imperialism, rather than whitewashing the British Empire. My point is that you interpret even the most lukewarm attempt to accomodate someone elses point of view as wokery gone mad. It’s an equally, if not more problematic proposition.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

I am interested in learning about good things European civilisation has given the world, rather than denigrating the British Empire … Sorry I am revealing built in bias.
Of course one wants neither to whitewash or denigrate anything, not colonialism, imperialism , vaccine based medecine, democracy, or whatever…one wants to study them in the round and not through a narrow political prism that is around now, and won’t be in even a few years time.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

I have had conversations where people have justified the domination of India by Britain as having been a net benefit for Indians. The person in question (who had travelled to India) cited the railways and India’s parliamentary system. YouGov released statistics in the last few years showing around 40% of Brits thought the Empire had been a benefit for the colonised. This reveals the level of ingrained racism, in the sense that people are parroting the narrative that Britain merely went out into the world to civilise the barbarian and inferior races for their own good. The former colonised now live here and will not put up with it. They were ignored in earlier decades but now a large amount of white Brits realise that it’s simply not good enough any more. Even this comment will have me demonised here as a communist infiltrator (has happened many times before) seeking to bring back the gulag. It’s obscene and from the very people crying identity politics at every turn. They just don’t call their own identity politics for what it really is.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Were the French better at running india,before Plessey? of Course not, British Put in Ports &Railways, got rid of Corrupt Moghuls,and Caste System …Really You are desperate..Britain went out because it needed Markets beyond Europe….Inventing Horologist Clock &Navigation helped,well done john Harrison.. i notice You Omit, Dutch, French,Spanish Empires, and Arabs Inventing Slavery 2,000 years before Caucasians set foot in Africa…

Last edited 3 years ago by Robin Lambert
Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Lambert

The British Empire was a system of economic exploitation. Positive changes that arose were a fortunate by-product and not the intent. Next you’ll be arguing that the Mongol Empire was created in order to safeguard Eurasian trade routes and usher in religious tolerance. No, the Mongol Empire was about power and domination, just like our ancestral Empire. By the way, people like you always say you didn’t mention the arab slave or the Barbary Pirates. I didn’t mention them because I wasn’t talking about them. Do I need a 1,000 word foreword before any comment about the British Empire on social media? It’s frankly ridiculous. Stay on topic.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Moghuls ,you twerp….I suggest You stay on topic….

J A Thompson
J A Thompson
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Having travelled in India and spoken to the actual people, I know there are many there who consider the English to have been of net benefit to their country. I presume you would hesitate to accuse them of ‘ingrained racism’

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  J A Thompson

Most Indians prefer to be in charge of their own affairs. As I say, clearly everything that happened during the era of empire wasn’t bad. My point is that the empire was primarily a system of exploitation of people deemed to be racially inferior.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Invariably because they failed the ‘Darwinian Test’ of being able to defend
themselves. In India’s are deplorably so.

Last edited 3 years ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

Thank you for vindicating my comments.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Well said.

Frederick B
Frederick B
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

No, of course we British didn’t go out into the world to benefit the “natives”.. We went to make money, but we ended up doing two things: 1/ bringing statehood and modernity to the colonies 2/ creating new homelands for ourselves (Australia, Canada, NZ).
Of course there were mistakes and errors en route – did Britain really go to war with China on behalf of a drug cartel? – but we ended up creating the modern world with all its immeasurable benefits for the colonised. Most of the people alive in the world today would never have been born were it not for that modern world which we brought into being.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Frederick B

We created a modern world setup for us and not for the colonised. That globalisation has spread modernity is scarcely justification for the destruction of entire indigenous groups and ways of life. Stop trying to justify imperial crimes. You must understand that people have ancestors alive today who were tortured by British colonial troops. The crimes of empire are still felt. People don’t want this pathetic self-justification. Imagine the Third Reich justifying the Holocaust 200 years after the fact by saying there was now a United and white European superstate. It’s abhorrent and that’s pretty close to how you sound.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

 am interested in learning about colonialism and imperialism, rather than whitewashing the British Empire.

It’s not that we are uninformed or underinformed about colonialism or s|avery or imperialism – quite on the contrary, we are pretty sufficiently learned about all that. It’s that we don’t regard any of those as the ultimate sins and unspeakable atrocities the wokes want us to regard them as. Yes, they happened. Every nation was at some point in history colonised / colonising, ens|aved/ens|aving, many were multiple times. We got over it. It’s only the inept ones who still insist on using them as figleaves to cover up their historical ineptitude. 

wokery gone mad.

Wokery has never been sane to start with. What’s barking insane from the beginning cannot go mad. It stays mad.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

If that’s the case how do you explain the prevalence in Britain today of the revisionist history that empire was a civilising mission rather than a system of economic exploitation?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Because it was a civilising force as well at the same time.
Not that i agree with it, as i think civilisation cannot be imposed upon a society from the outside. It should occur from within. Africa is a prime example for that – no matter how much “civilisation” you keep throwing at it, it won’t stick.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

This is precisely the type of attitude that those you view as ‘woke’ disagree with. How did forcing Indians to sell their fabrics to Britain at an artificially low price to then buy back finished clothing goods at a high price benefit Indian society? Empire was a system of economic exploitation created to benefit Britain, well, Britain’s ruling class in the main. The notion that it was spreading civilisation is self-justification after the fact. If you insist on adhering to this blantantly biased understanding of colonialism there is going to be rancour in society. Dismissing it as woke madness shows how weak your arguments must be and makes it impossible to transcend our past. How can we move forward, if we don’t even recognise what happened?

Last edited 3 years ago by Zach Thornton
Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

How can we move forward, if we don’t even recognise what happened?

We do recognise it. It’s just that our evaluation of it differs.
The Roman Empire colonising a large swath of the European landmass, North Africa, Near East is regarded as a civilising force on balance, regardless of the economic exploitations committed in the process. (It certainly proved to be catalyst of civilising in my old lands in Central Europe.)
Outcomes typically depend on who is doing the colonising to whom.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

The Roman Empire was one of the most unequal civilisations to have ever existed. Gaul was destroyed in a genocide of massacres, torture and starvation. It can only be viewed as a civilising force from a remote point in time. It was the opposite for anyone that endured being on the receiving end of Rome’s imperial might.

Could you clarify what you mean by civilising in this context? Also, what part or era of the Roman Empire?

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

How beneficial have the previous cultural revolutions been over the last 100 years. How many deaths, through imprisonment, torture and starvation, all under the banner of equity.

Last edited 3 years ago by Andrew Raiment
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

What utter nonsense, who on earth told you that?

The US is almost certainly “the most unequal civilisation that ever existed” In recent years, whilst you were no doubt asleep, they have “destroyed in massacres, torture snd starvation “ * much of the Middle East.

Whereas Rome the took the benefits of civilisation to millions, ‘you’ have destroyed on a truly epic scale.

In addition you cannot even prosecute the killer of Ms Ashli Babbitt, slaughtered in the vaunted Capitol Building.

Let that great Frenchman George Clemenceau have the last word. In 1919 he described the US “as a state that had gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual interval of civilisation “
Was he wrong? And has anything really changed?

(*Your rather clunky prose, if I may say so).

Last edited 3 years ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

The United States of America may well be the most unequal society that has ever existed. The trouble is that I made no such claim. The Roman Empire was one of the most unequal of the classic civilisations. 80% + of the inhabitants of the empire were subsistence peasants or slaves where food insecurity was common and their lives beholden to masters with vast wealth. Wealth from all over the empire was funelled to a relatively limited number of urban centres.
How you can claim Rome advanced civilisation to Gaul and keep a straight face is beyond me. The entire region was decimated by warfare, massacres and pillaging. Millions of people lost their lives or were sold into slavery. Civilising is an odd term to ascribe to such an event. I don’t know why you feel the need to mask violent historical periods with euphemistic language.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

violent historical periods 

The last relatively nonviolent historical period in Europe was the eneolithicum (Copper Age, as we continentals call it).

The Roman Empire was [….]

You don’t appear to know much about the Roman Empire, do you? Not beyond a dogeared SWP pamphlet titled ‘The History Of Class Struggle, with illustrations’, by the sound of it.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johannes Kreisler
Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

You’ve demonstrated zero knowledge. You made an assertion without justification or evidence.

Anything to the left of Genghis Khan counts as the SWP to you. It’s laughable.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Could you clarify what you mean by civilising in this context? 

It brought new technologies, innovations, artistic styles, etc. etc. to the regia involved. Unlike the soviet colonisation of the same parts much later, which effectively nuked them back to the stone age so to speak. Not all colonisations are equal.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

You are so incredibly biased. The Roman Empire destroyed civilisations as much as it furthered civilisation.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

We made a desert, and called it peace.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

And who said that and it what context may I ask?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

It’s a variation on a theme of Tacitus who put the words into Calgacus’ mouth in The Agricola. Calgacus was a Pictish chieftan who opposed the Romans. Originally it was ‘they make a desert’. I like to think Tacitus was a bit more self aware and knew he was questioning the moral right of the Roman Empire.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Thank you.
I couldn’t have put it better.

Simon Baggley
Simon Baggley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Well done – must be time for your tea now

Arnold Grutt
Arnold Grutt
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

“Dismissing it as woke madness shows how weak your arguments must be and makes it impossible to transcend our past.”

But it isn’t ‘our’ past (mine starts in 1953 but only legally-speaking in 1963, the age of criminal responsibility). It was the people of that times’ present. You are asserting a connection, a decisive link without documenting it. And the problem with documenting the past is that what we have left is fragments, random examples of particular things, survivals, sometimes unrelated and lacking in context, which are being interpreted as what they mean to people now. But that is not what they might have meant to particular people at that time.
You are doing what ideologues always do and reducing an irretrievable, complex, multi-faceted reality to a single directional thing and motive (as do, of course, those of your opponents who claim that the Empire was overall a good thing, which is equally meaningless) to be approved or disapproved of. But there were trillions squared of things happening, and as many motives for what went on in India over that period. One cannot reach any conclusion about the ‘rightfulness’ of what occurred either according to the ‘morals’ and standpoints of people at that time which are beyond access, or ours now. Only what one is compelled (without presupposition)to believe now about what is retrievable from that past. And this will never be as simple and unilateral as what you apparently wish to find.
Everything before one’s oldest grandparent’s birth is ‘history’ and by definition questionable, because there are no living witnesses. Not even film, memoirs, sound recordings or reported speech can be wholly trusted (because all are subject to possible interference or ‘shaping’ and selection).
History as a collection of randomly preserved actions cannot provide a secure foundation for a ‘moral’ attitude in the present, only philosophy, which is timeless. So the notion of ‘historical guilt in the present’ is worthless, except as an emotional spasm, such as that which you seem to be experiencing. That you do so changes nothing in the past, nor does it create any generational ‘responsibility’ now, among people who were not involved.

Last edited 3 years ago by Arnold Grutt
Fennie Strange
Fennie Strange
3 years ago
Reply to  Arnold Grutt

It’s about time someone made this important point – thank you Arnold Grutt, your comment deserves to be an article in its own right.

Simon Sharp
Simon Sharp
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Do you make the same black or white case for the Chinese dynastic empire – the Ottoman empire or any other? Can’t it be that that they produced things which still influence and benefit us now as well as producing atrocities?
reexplaining everything through a radical perspective of ‘economic exploitation’ rather than the chaotic messy reality of human history would be a prime example of reviionism.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Sharp

No, I agree that’s it’s complicated and many good things happened during the era of empire. What I disagree with is the historical revisionism that the purpose of empire was benign, even benevolent. The Mongol Empire brought about religious tolerance and led Europe and China interacting with unprecedented technological exchange. The Great Khan did not start his expansion for these aims but to enrich his clan and for power.

Simon Sharp
Simon Sharp
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

so we’re both agreeing that reality is found in between the extremes of western culture being the epitome of evil and it being an undisputed shining good.
And neither of us are happy that some people seem so very keen on pushing those cartoon extremes?

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Sharp

It seems so. The readers of Unherd – at least most of the commentators here – have a problem with that. The excesses of ‘wokeness’ justify whitewashing history in their mind. Would you agree?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

What I disagree with is the historical revisionism that the purpose of empire was benign, even benevolent. 

You still don’t get it. “Benevolence” is not something what was on the table. The purpose of empire-building, wars, conquest was to conquer. Not to benefit the conquered. Those who got conquered were not conquered because they were more benevolent or peaceful, but because they lacked the requisite wherewithal at the time to become conquerors themselves.
Benevolence as a “universal” virtue is a very newfangled (post-Enlightenment) concept.
Bemoaning the lack of benevolence in historical events is like PETA condemning the neanderthals for wearing fur and eating meat.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johannes Kreisler
Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

I was not bemoaning a lack of benevolence. I was criticising the suggestion that the British Empire was a benefit for the colonised, rather than primarily a system exploitation benefitting Britain and it’s ruling class. You have made comments along these lines and that’s the issue.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

“Well meaning Belgian colonisers”

Christ on a bike!

Millions of people died during Belgian rule. Hands and arms were routinely hacked off by colonial administrators forcing people to work as slaves in jungle for their own profit.

You are unbelievably biased with how you excuse colonial crimes but so harshly condemn communist crimes in the same sentence. I suspect you’re too old to learn. Good day.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Who told you that ?
It was all about plunder and profit, as you Americans well know.
You virtually exterminated the indigenous inhabitants of your continent in an effort to “get rich quick”.
Granted, it worked for a few.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

I am not American.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Canadian then?

Giulia Khawaja
Giulia Khawaja
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Your choice of words indicate your preconceived idea of the British Empire
“Colonialism” “ imperialism”
“ whitewashing”
Are you interested in learning about other empires as well?

Jim Jones
Jim Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Giulia Khawaja

Do you know what whataboutery is?

Giulia Khawaja
Giulia Khawaja
3 years ago
Reply to  Jim Jones

Is it a pointless as your comment?

Jim Jones
Jim Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Giulia Khawaja

Well evidently not in your opinion

Simon Baggley
Simon Baggley
3 years ago
Reply to  Jim Jones

In mine as well

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Giulia Khawaja

Indeed and I do. Why do you people always presume otherwise?

Simon Sharp
Simon Sharp
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

who are ‘us people’?- if you mean the unherd commentariat then they are indeed the rag tag unwashed heathens that exist outside the borders of a specific left wing perspective but don’t like he Daily mail so much. I know to confirmed left wingers this unwashed mass can look homogenous – but the eyes can be deceiving.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Sharp

I mean people who spout ‘what about this empire’ as if it’s valid response. It’s a brain dead point.

Giulia Khawaja
Giulia Khawaja
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Who are “ you people” ? Why am I included in “you people” ?

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Giulia Khawaja

Commenting ‘what about this’ is not a valid line of argument. It’s a poor attempt to derail the conversation.

Paul Savage
Paul Savage
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

But “wokery” isn’t more accepting of diversity at all is it? Diversity of opinion is anathema to woke culture. People are hounded from their jobs for dissenting from the new “truths” that cannot be questioned.

Last edited 3 years ago by Paul Savage
Simon Baggley
Simon Baggley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

It isn’t about accepting differences which everyone should agree with – it’s when some differences are elevated against the majorities will by a vocal minority and become the dominant cultural force

Brian Dorsley
Brian Dorsley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Mark, I studied Critical Race Theory last year. I didn’t want to, but it was part of my doctorate course. The whole point of the course was about eradicating ‘whiteness’ with the admittance that this could not come about without some shedding of ‘white’ blood. These were tenured well-paid professors saying this, not idealistic angry students. ‘Wokery’ is not tolerance – it is a racist and sexist ideology that categorizes people based on inherent characteristics, and then tells both groups they are enemies. It’s a form of ‘peasant’ management by those who have a vested interest in stoking hatred.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

You make this sound like a competition between a New Statesman article and a Spectator headline. Woke is doing more than making things equal, it is over-compensating. Do you actually need positive discrimination for every single question? Do you need to allow arguments about gender if a very large part of the population think it is just silly and tiresome.
Woke is fashionable. Is it always good for a country to follow every fashion?

Johnny Rottenborough
Johnny Rottenborough
3 years ago

Johannes Kreisler—But Vikram outlines how those demographic and cultural changes can be successfully prevented, before they happen
Labour and the Conservatives initiated the demographic and cultural changes in the late 1940s and they have no intention of allowing the changes to be prevented. For example, patriotic parties are closed down by the authorities; a favourite tactic is to imprison their leaders to break them.

mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Wokism is angry, racist and violent. These are not demographic or cultural phenomena, they are mental health or civic order issues. I know very few people under (or over) 40 who are like that. Its perfectly possible that a peaceful, democratic government will be elected 2028 thru 40 and they will work to reduce the worst of life’s unequal outcomes or to reduce police & criminal violence etc. However that could just be Boris’ Tories or Blair’s Labour and it certainly won’t/can’t be wokists.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
3 years ago
Reply to  mike otter

spot on…it won’t be Corbyn’s Labour either..tbh Woke is like an inferior version of *try to understand and respect others* with added politically motivated stupid bits tacked on by various versions of outdated Marxist thinking that wants, as ever, to undermine society and create divisions because as they famously say, they will never achieve power through democracy, only direct action.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Isn’t that just cryptic code for we have been invaded and are now being outbred by ‘others’?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

Only if you split people up as ‘people who are like me’ and ‘the others’. The cultural shifts are as important as the demographics.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Has it not always been so. Romans and Peregrini,
Greeks and Barbarians, even Brahmins and Untouchables?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Oh, the old “othering” chestnut.
Do you really believe that the blindingly obvious differences between European nations and the vast, functionally illiterate, ineducable masses floating into Europe should be overlooked? Really? Why?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

Because they are people, worthy of respect and have the same rights to a decent life as anyone else. Appreciate this may seem like a hopelessly idealistic view but it is in essence the difference between those on the right and those on the left.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Because they are people

Yes they are people. Nobody mistakes them for algæ, pigeons or shrubs.

 worthy of respect 

Courtesy, not respect. Respect is earnt, whereas courtesy is afforded to all, indiscriminately, even to those not worthy of respect.
That said, them being people and being worth of courtesy/respect is no reason to accommodate them in any country/society they wish to live in. They can be people and given respect in their own natural habitats, be it Africa or the M.E.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

So, they are people but not people with the same right to a try and make a decent life as people born elsewhere?
Respect, as in respect their rights as people, not legal or territorial rights but human.
‘Their own natural habitats’ – so their natural habitats are somehow different from mine?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

So, they are people but not people with the same right to a try and make a decent life as people born elsewhere?

Yes, that’s correct. Same as i don’t have the same rights in someone else’s country (or house, land, etc.) as the inhabitants do.

as in respect their rights as people, not legal or territorial rights but human

There’s no such thing as “human rights”. It’s a made-up, make-believe dogma.

‘Their own natural habitats’ – so their natural habitats are somehow different from mine?

Yes. It’s a different geographical location. Presuming you’re a native of Europe, your natural habitat is different from Antarctica or Africa or the Pacific Islands, no?

Last edited 3 years ago by Johannes Kreisler
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

I agree human rights is a made up idea – just as the notion of countries or continents or geography or property rights or law is made up. All ideas are made up. We just disagree about which made up ideas we choose to believe in.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

But continents and geography are tangible material items. Countries / nations, property rights, laws discern tangible constructs, as well as abstract constructs.
Human rights” fly in the face of natural laws. Natural rights are ethics based and constant. ‘Human’ rights are arbitrary and irrational, therefore a fallacy.

Diarmid Weir
Diarmid Weir
3 years ago

‘Natural rights are ethics based’…? What ethics…whose ethics…?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Diarmid Weir

Laws of reciprocity for example.
Doing unto others and others doing unto you, that sort of thing.
Morals are ephemeral, arbitrary, culture-dictated, fallible. Ethics are constant.
It’s for a good reason that Justitia is depicted with a scale, blindfolded.

Diarmid Weir
Diarmid Weir
3 years ago

Reciprocity on its own isn’t very helpful – it’s compatible with all sorts of horrendous acts. And where do such rules come from? Are they God-given, have they evolved, or what?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Diarmid Weir

And where do such rules come from? Are they God-given, have they evolved, or what?

Recognised. Just like the π (and any such constants), which are neither God-given nor evolved, just are. Recognised, observed.

Reciprocity on its own isn’t very helpful – it’s compatible with all sorts of horrendous acts. 

Indeed. Still at least a measure of justice. The arbitrariness of injustice is compatible with all sorts of horrendous acts as well, on top of being unjust.

Diarmid Weir
Diarmid Weir
3 years ago

You can’t liken moral ‘laws’ to laws of nature; that is a basic fallacy. There are predictable consequences to ignoring natural laws irrespective of whether they are ‘recognised’ or not – whereas the consequences of breaking moral laws are contingent on the actions of other people.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Diarmid Weir

Yes. You are reiterating what i said.

Diarmid Weir
Diarmid Weir
3 years ago

Absolutely not. You are claiming a special status for some ‘moral laws’ whilst denying such status to codified human rights – but you have provided no basis whatsoever for such a distinction .

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Diarmid Weir

No. On the opposite, i said ‘moral laws’ are arbitrary, ephemeral, prone to fallacy.
You may want to re-read my previous comments.

Diarmid Weir
Diarmid Weir
3 years ago

‘Morals’, ‘ethics’ – you really want to argue that these are different concepts? On what basis would you do so? If ‘recognition’ is your criterion, then where is the evidence for this recognition? If it exists where does it come from and what is its significance?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Diarmid Weir

Of course they are different concepts.
I suggest you re-read my previous posts, i answered your questions already.

If ‘recognition’ is your criterion, then where is the evidence for this recognition? If it exists where does it come from and what is its significance?

Where does the circumference to diameter ratio of a circle come from? From the Easterbunny?
The evidence of its recognition is in its formula, and in its assigned (imperfect) decimal value.

What is its significance?

The significance of its existence, or the significance of its recognition, you mean? If the latter, it signifies the observer’s understanding of it. Or if you meant the former, it’s just itself.

Diarmid Weir
Diarmid Weir
3 years ago

You need to consider more carefully how pi differs from an ‘ethical rule’ or ‘principle’ or whatever you want to call it.
No ‘observers’ who accurately divide the circumference of a circle by its diameter can disagree on the result. There is no such unarguable demonstration of any ethical rule.
If I ignore the value of pi in building my house with a semi-circular profile roof I will immediately be in trouble. If I ignore an ‘ethical rule’, there will be no consequences unless this is observed as such and punished by other people.
All ethical and moral rules are equally ‘arbitrary, ephemeral, prone to fallacy’ except to the extent that they are codified (not necessarily formally) and reliably bring consequences (to a lesser or greater degree) if observed to be broken. They do not exist (and thus cannot be ‘recognised’) prior to any such codification.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Diarmid Weir

Example of ethical rule: “an eye for an eye” (reciprocity)
~ of moral rule: “turn the other cheek” (arbitrariness)

If I ignore an ‘ethical rule’, there will be no consequences unless this is observed as such and punished by other people.

Punished by law. Law enacted by those ‘other people’.

They do not exist (and thus cannot be ‘recognised’) prior to any such codification.

Recognition / observation comes before codification. What’s unrecognised cannot be codified.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

Our natural habitat as human beings is land on planet Earth. You speak as if the people in a given place have evolved seperately to purely inhabit that region. The various peoples of Eurasia have been migrating, invading and breeding together for thousands of years.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

You speak as if the people in a given place have evolved seperately to purely inhabit that region. The various peoples of Eurasia have been migrating, invading and breeding together for thousands of years.

On the contrary. I speak in full knowledge of the various peoples of Eurasia interacting / invading / interbreeding / generally mingling and mixing with one another through millennia.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

You want me to believe it’s just an innocent comment when you write that poor mostly brown people should stay in their natural habitat. Pull the other one.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

What is it then? Come on, spell it out. You mean it’s a waycisst comment, don’t you?
Newsflash: you are at full liberty to call me rac¡st as you please, any time. I don’t take offence in that. Nobody does.
To the point though, those “poor mostly brown people” you speak of are not entitled to live off the welfare systems of other people. There’s zero excuse for them to do so.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johannes Kreisler
Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago

I couldn’t care less how you feel about it.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

The grooming gang members, the Somalis causing mayhem across London, and the Albanian drugs gangs are not worthy of respect. I know they are in your world, but not in ours.
The terrifying fact is that had Labour held on to power for the last 11 years, not a single member of a single grooming gang would have been prosecuted.

Last edited 3 years ago by Fraser Bailey
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

So some immigrants are bad people, some aren’t. Some people born in UK for generations back are good people, some aren’t.
That’s not a ‘terrifying fact’ it’s an assertion that neither you or I can prove or disprove.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

“Some” is a quantifiable proportion. If a critical mass (which doesn’t have to be majority) shares a characteristic, it becomes a pattern.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

You are correct. Mr Bailey was making an assertion. Just like saying that there are thousands of people out there of uncertain gender. Couldn’t it just be cool to behave in a certain way? Could it be just an assertion?
Could it not just be a fashion to take a picture of yourself and your family and the dog kneeling with BLM signs – just to show your friends how cool you are?

Last edited 3 years ago by Chris Wheatley
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Could be just a fashion. In which case why are so many people getting worked up about it as if it’s the end of civilisation?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Because it translates into legislation, policies, economics, and has a very tangible effect on lives. That’s why. Wokery is not a victimless fad.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Because we are changing our systems around the fashion, thereby sealing it in for a long time.
This is a fashion like hippies in the 60s/70s. Young people had long hair. But there was no rule which said that you could get the choice jobs if you had long hair, the BBC didn’t replace all of its newsreaders with long-haired hippies. There was no hate crime if you insulted somebody with long hair. We didn’t train primary school children that short hair was evil and that previous generations with short hair had to be forgotten.
It was a fashion and it went away.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

As a failed hippie, Short haired ”Skinheads” were B**** & deservedly out of fashion..

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Have you seen the stabbing figures in London over the last few years..they are rising off the scale.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

Blsck on Black so no cause for alarm………yet.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

The Police When I was in London for 40 years,released Figures for Crime per ethnic Make Up for London,turkish Drug Gangs,Caribbean ”Skunk” sellers made up alot of that,with Bangladeshi &Pakistani & VietnamesePeople traffickers, Why have these figures been stopped by Sadist Khan?… Knife crime &Turf Wars were Also rampant in South London & North..

kathleen carr
kathleen carr
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

The two differences in respect are-be kind and do nothing to deliberately upset someone against do everything I demand or else.

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

No it is not. People on the right respect others but without being so addicted to their own view of the world that they disregard obvious problems for people equally worthy of respect who may be already here .

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Ted Ditchburn

So that would explain the austerity policies of the 2010s? It was the Tories trying to protect the poor made poorer by the failures of capitalism?

Eleanor Barlow
Eleanor Barlow
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Yes they are people and have the same rights as anyone else. But it would be better for all if they stayed at home, unless they have skills that are in demand. Otherwise they end up on welfare benefits indefinitely, and have to be housed, provided with medical care and their children given an education – sometimes at the expense of the indigenous population.
Genuine refugees should be allowed in, but I question whether the UK immigration service is competent enough to suss out the fakes. Either that, or there are too many loopholes in immigration law for human rights lawyers to exploit.
For countries that are ruled so abysmally that they result in large numbers of asylum seekers, I favour taking over any assets they may have in the host country, to help pay for the upkeep of asylum seekers.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

But what if it is just a fashion? Do you wait for the next fashion to turn up and change everything again?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Is everything changing? The rich are still getting richer and the poor are staying poor. Personally, I think that’s what needs addressing.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

You are correct but you have changed the subject.
Strictly speaking, if you follow the way things will go in the USA, when there is a choice of people waiting for hospital beds, the non-white person will be chosen.
To follow exactly the same logic, if there is a choice between a man and a woman, you must choose the man. In that way you will have equality of life expectancy.
Everything should be as equal as possible. The choice between woke and non-woke is in fact between positive discrimination, on the one hand, and a slower, more deliberate path on the other hand.
Positive discrimination will remove a generation from the argument – anyone over 65 years old will not be fit to make the change. A slower change will allow everybody to take part.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

I guess I am in favour of positive discrimination but not necessarily in the terms you lay out.
On health, for example, trying to ensure equality of coverage and equality of access might mean putting additional resources into areas where take up of services is low or where quality of services is low. This might be seen as woke but actually is beneficial to all as people will present sooner and ultimately could take up less resources to keep them healthy.
Life expectancy differences between men and women are not nearly as great as the differences between poor people and rich people. That would be the first area to address rather than try and equalise something that may be biological.
I don’t see ‘woke’, whatever it is, as being a significantly different trend than the anti-racist or anti-sexist or pro-environment trends of the past, for example. I know lots of people do.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Ok, we agree to differ. But there is the question of fat shaming…….

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Really UK at 70million is OVERPOPULATED ..South east england at 440 per sq.Mile is more so than tokyo,New York,

Giulia Khawaja
Giulia Khawaja
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

They are worthy of consideration as fellow humans. But so are the British and there has been very little consideration or respect for us, our lifestyle, traditions, history, from the increasingly powerful and demanding “others”.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

No they don’t. Just as in Ancient Rome that privilege has to be earned. Worthy has no relevance at all.

Giulia Khawaja
Giulia Khawaja
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

The Brits are not the ones doing the “splitting up”.
it is not only that there is now an unbalance of ethnicity, there is also an unbalance of class.

Richard Lord
Richard Lord
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

I couldn’t disagree more. The MSM and twitterati make these woke issues appear dominant. The young I know are as scathing about it as older people.

gearyjohansen
gearyjohansen
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

But they are only becoming dominant amongst the chattering classes. Everyone else has already rejected them. Wokeness has already been rejected as a social force, by the vast mass of people. Even most university students admit to beliefs they are unwilling to voice for fear of the mob or social censure. It’s a performative Western equivalent of North Korea. Only the dark triad types proven to be equally predominant amongst the alt Right and PC authoritarians, actually have anything to gain from the movement.

Starry Gordon
Starry Gordon
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

In any case identity (as of race, ethnicity, language, region, religion, sex, sexual orientation, and so on) is not ideology or political practice. Identities emerge into importance only when the political machinery has seized up and most voters cannot materially further their interests at the polls.

Tim Beard
Tim Beard
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Not a chance

No one with a brain should ever vote Tory again

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim Beard

Not even when not voting Tory puts Labour into government?

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim Beard

Classic! So the majority of the voters who voted Tory are brainless? What a brilliant election winning pitch! It’s working out so well.

When I was a much younger left wing gay man, even then I was shocked at how moronic much left wing politics actually is. ‘Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, Out, Out, Out’ chanted on marches weeks after another Tory landslide! But we were oh so righteous and virtuous!

Last edited 3 years ago by Andrew Fisher
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Tim’s dislike of the Tories is not from the left.

mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Wise words – you’ve planned the work Vikram – the hard bit will be finding someone to work the plan!

Rosie Franczak
Rosie Franczak
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

The use of the word ‘detoxify’ is a clue to a warped world view.What a disgustingly nasty unhelpful and selfish list. Kindness and goodness is largely the prerogative of the selfless and altruistic. It is not even on your list yet it is essential to social cohabitation and progress. Pulling down statues was about not praising a few 18th century men, starting in Bristol ; men who made a lot of money from slaves, most who died in misery and pointing out in the BLM heat, that they did that. Remembering is the measure of a civilised people. Oxbridge is hardly the dominant playground of the left in academic circles and never was. It still entertains privilege for elites in its processes, and the Bullingdon club is largely responsible for Brexit and a rise of phoney patriotism that hides a hatred of the foreigner. Certainly LSE, where I went, is not dominated by the left at all any more so get your facts right. What’s this ‘refuse to judge the past by modern standards?’ What modern standards do you mean and how were they arrived at and do they really exist? If McPherson concluded the Police were institutionally racist, it is right to listen to the former Black deputy commissioner who in 2020, said it still is. Modern standards have to be examined to see if they have fallen below a certain level that is retrogressive and intolerable. It is not about comparing Elizabethan vagrancy laws with today’s welfare provision, although knowing how far we have come gives me hope. So History is important to understanding the now , both here and elsewhere. We have a role in the world to set standards too. History is also endlessly fascinating. It is for example, important to watch and listen to the Windermere children who were helped to escape the Nazis and remember what happened, or it could happen again in different but comparable forms. History is not destined to repeat itself exactly (there is often a new twist), but refusing to learn from the past is foolish. To assess the present by understanding the past is mature, sensible and crucial for human life in the now and civilisation generally, If women had not flexed their muscles as Suffragettes, against being defined by their bodies and their housewifely duties, we would still be without the vote, strapped into stays, & suffering from housemaids knee and prolapses. I could go on but I can’t be bothered.

Last edited 3 years ago by Rosie Franczak
Niobe Hunter
Niobe Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Franczak

I feel your post would be read by more people if it was divided into paragraphs instead of coming across as one long continuous rant.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Niobe Hunter

Surely either continuous or long would have done, but not both?

Vikram Sharma
Vikram Sharma
3 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Franczak

If you think pulling down statues equates learning from history, what can I say to you? You are arguing with someone else, not me.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Maybe putting statues in context to gain a better understanding of how the people who were celebrated by the statues were able to make the money necessary to have statues put up in their honour? That’s learning, surely?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

It’s not that we do not understand / are uninformed of any of that; we are perfectly sufficiently learned on the matter. It is that we do not regard s|avery / colon¡sation as the ultimate s¡n and unspeakable cr¡me as much as the blm mob wants to make us to. Yes, they happened. They happened to pretty much all peoples on the planet (for some multiple times), and we all got over it. Except those who still cling to it as to cover up their own ineptitudes. Yes, s|avery happened to blacks too. No, it wasn’t such a big deal.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Statues must be overrated. As Mr Bridgeford says, they are just rich people from the past.

Monty Marsh
Monty Marsh
3 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Franczak

I could go on but I can’t be bothered”
I detect a synergy between what you can’t be bothered to write, and what I can’t be bothered to plough through.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Franczak

Not quite sure if you’re aware that “black” is a common noun / adjective – unless it’s a surname -, so there’s no justification for capitalising it.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Franczak

Kindness and goodness is largely the prerogative of the selfless and altruistic. 

You seem to have no idea how poisonously loaded the words “kindness”, “goodness” (+ “love”, “empathy”, ‘kompasshun’ etc.) became when uttered by the left. They induce a gag reflex in any sane person.

Jim Jones
Jim Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Rosie Franczak

From whose point of view did they do more good than harm and in what way was the slave trade not such a big deal

Ted Ditchburn
Ted Ditchburn
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Trying to predict things 20 years ahead is OK for chatting about but it isn’t a serious thesis in that change through that period will change every parameter. Enormous technological change is going to impact the woke class as AI impacts on their areas of work, that right now has seen little of the disruption that others have felt.
That will change the attitudes of teachers, lawyers, accountants as it has steel workers, miners and car workers.

Colin Reeves
Colin Reeves
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

I suspect the Tories will indeed be toast, but not for EW’s reasons. By 2040, the net zero carbon agenda will have made the life of man more solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. It’s the Tories who are promoting it, and as with the ERM, the fact that Labour is just as much in favour will count for little: they’ll get the blame. That’s if elections even matter any more; the Democrats have shown that you don’t need voters to win, just ‘votes.’

Drahcir Nevarc
Drahcir Nevarc
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Agreed, except for your last point, which surely falls under the heading of the wokery which you rightly say should be challenged.

matthewspring
matthewspring
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Vikram, we need you working for Boris. Brilliant to-do list. Bravo,sir!

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

Why do we have to refer to the empire,let’s just focus on developing our economy so ots the best in the world.

Victoria Cooper
Victoria Cooper
3 years ago
Reply to  Vikram Sharma

The Tories can turn the tide? It would have to be without Boris Johnson, he is getting greener by the minute.

Steve Craddock
Steve Craddock
3 years ago

There are many problems in the UK i just wish we had a government with sufficient backbone to try solving some of them.
I suppose this is what comes when the government treats every morning edition of the newspapers or opinion poll or twitter storm as a fresh election.
The electorate handed them an 80 seat mandate, I just wish they would do something with it, like try leading for change rather following the news cycles, and cravenly paying homage to their big business pay masters.
I don’t think we can get a lower calibre of politicians than we have at present, but I am constantly amazed at the general idiots that seem end up in Parliament.

Last edited 3 years ago by Steve Craddock
kathleen carr
kathleen carr
3 years ago
Reply to  Steve Craddock

The conservatives were given the brexit supporters vote who had previously voted ukip ( which got 4 million votes ). This is probably a temporary gift if they just turn into Labour-lite themselves.They are counting on our FPTP system to keep them in power , but if a viable opposition emerges they may get voted out.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  kathleen carr

That opposition is SDP, Reform….Independents…lib-Lab-Snp-Plaid have been supine is support of trashing Small businesses They wont vote Tory or labour ,or lib-dim for a long time if ever..Thats 3million voters for a start…

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Steve Craddock

The REAL Changes since 2019 Conservatives Dont Conserve,(where I retired to they are concreting over Farms,Green areas)
Liberals are illiberal
Labour Dont look after Blue collar workers
Greens destroy the environment,by Stupid demonising of CARBON,which barely 0.04% of atmosphere,:Life giving gas.human activity is responsible for 31% of that (Google facts)..rubbish,that The Sun has ”No effects on Climate!’ with Garbage like this Promoted by UN,WHO, Microsoft divorceesetc Lib,Lab.Cons,Snp,plaid,greens We are in trouble…!

Last edited 3 years ago by Robin Lambert
andrew harman
andrew harman
3 years ago

There are two important points that this article overlooks.
1) The British Conservatives are the great survivors of western politics. time and again they have reinvented themselves to accommodate the times under certain leaders: Peel, Disraeli, Churchill and yes Thatcher and Johnson. Whatever changes come – and the assumptions made by the author are by no means certain to come to pass – they will adapt.
2) Such is the nature of my work I know a large number of younger people rather well and I live in solid red Bristol. Most are cynical and even contemptuous of the wokery so often ascribed to them and many are more vocal about it than one may think. Rebelling against it all could well become the new cool.

google
google
3 years ago
Reply to  andrew harman

I have an 11 year-old boy who can spot it almost instinctively, and is quite sick of it. It’s a reaction to the continuous torrent of woke nonsense they have to endure at school

andrew harman
andrew harman
3 years ago
Reply to  google

Youthful wisdom

Dominic Rudman
Dominic Rudman
3 years ago
Reply to  andrew harman

My 14 year old heard a news piece on the European Space Agency looking to have a disabled astronaut, rolled his eyes and said “God, does EVERYTHING have to be a diversity hire these days??”

andrew harman
andrew harman
3 years ago
Reply to  Dominic Rudman

More youthful wisdom.

Victor Newman
Victor Newman
3 years ago
Reply to  andrew harman

Our silence doesn’t mean assent. Yes, there is an assumption that if a teacher says something, then it will be believed. The dead zombie media assumes that repetition works: they don’t understand that smart people can spot secular religiosity a mile off. We just switch off – we don’t waste energy processing nonsense. Ironically, the left is silencing itself through broadcasting absurd propositions which makes the media they employ redundant.

Simon Newman
Simon Newman
3 years ago
Reply to  andrew harman

Yes – young people in Britain aren’t particularly ideological, and compared to the USA they aren’t particularly conformist either. Race-guilting can be pretty effective on middle class white girls in the USA; it has much less attraction in the UK where its claims are much more obviously laughable.

Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  andrew harman

Young people are often anti the excesses of woke. The witchhunts and the faux outrage. Conversely, they’re also quite socially liberal when it comes to social issues. Often all of the above is portrayed as woke. It’s become a nonsense and merely a pejorative used by mostly ageing right wingers. You might as well just say you hate the left.

kathleen carr
kathleen carr
3 years ago
Reply to  andrew harman

The modern Conservative party was founded by Disraeli to accomodate the large new voting population and it later picked up a lot of female votes. However its newest supporters are people Labour doesn’t want-so not a natural fit. The traditional conservative communities-farming and business aren’t necessarily pleased with the tories either. Labour lost rather than conservatives won.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  andrew harman

Bristol apart from idiot Statue tossed into Bristol harbour..They voted against Tories Concreting over rural areas?..

Kevin Thomas
Kevin Thomas
3 years ago

This year marks 20 years since a chuckling Labour activist told me the only people he saw voting Tory at the polling station he’d worked at were white haired old people and he confidently predicted the Tories would never see power again. In the 2019 election, the youngest age group to mostly vote Tory had dropped ten years since 2017 to include people who grew up on Oasis and the Spice Girls. That’s the group just slightly above millennials. Millennials will eventually vote Tory too. It’s always been the way. Who voted for Brexit in the highest numbers? The flower power generation and the punks. People who write off generations as permanently left wing don’t understand human nature. Besides, the serious brainwashing is mostly done on the affluent end of the middle classes, ie: the ones who will one day be running the institutions. They don’t bother with the working classes so much, and how would you convince kids from an estate in Hartlepool that they have white privilege?

Last edited 3 years ago by Kevin Thomas
David Morrey
David Morrey
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevin Thomas

Yes, have just been adding my own comment to this effect. The core of the Tory vote today are the elderly who, in their youth, were considered the most counter cultural and left wing generation this country had ever produced. People grow up.

r.p.judkins
r.p.judkins
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevin Thomas

Milennails are people who grew up on Oasis and the Spice Girls. Gen Z are people born when Oasis and the Spice Girls were big.

Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
3 years ago

The big hole in Ed’s thesis, is of course the following: that as us boomer golden oldies break on through to the other side, we will all leave our accumulated asset wealth (houses primarily) to the local cats home (as a final kicker), instead of to an entire generation of dark and brooding millennials, more bitter and fed up at waiting so long than even Prince Charles.

And, of course, said millennials and Gen Zee’s, having come into their own so very very late, will in fact all promptly donate their inherited estates to the local branch of Momentum Geriatric (TM), out of sheer spite at the inequities of the universe, to spend their old age in a bedsit in misery, instead of promptly turning Tory with the attitude of ‘we hold what we have’ while showing a bony and quivering middle finger to all the causes they showed such affection for all the years of their dispossession.

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

Indeed, and if we get Chinese immigration from Hong Kong, their demand for housing will tend to counteract any incipient generational slump.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

I believe people from Hong Kong are accustomed to living in very small spaces. We could repurpose the left luggage lockers at London’s main stations.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Or replace the Scotch with the HK Chinese perhaps.
At least they would be grateful.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago

in 1984 A Tory Mp proposed Hong Kong Enterprises could be housed on inner hebrides, i say, Let them settle ( Move) to Glasgow let Nicola sort out that ,instead of pandering to islam ”Hate” Laws

Last edited 3 years ago by Robin Lambert
Prashant Kotak
Prashant Kotak
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Haha – I somehow think the ones who manage to escape the clutches of the CCP will be wealthy enough so as to head for the prime bits of Mayfair instead more likely.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Prashant Kotak

You are probably correct. It is we who will be huddling in the left luggage lockers at Liverpool Street.

Lee Johnson
Lee Johnson
3 years ago

Flawless logic here with just a few problems:

  • people grow old (the age divide melts)
  • people save and buy houses (they are no longer poor)
  • people intermarry (ethnicity fades)
  • people do u-turns

I remember being a communist at Uni. It was fashionable and gave a fighting purpose to a meaningless lifestyle. But we all grow up eventually, even me.

Stanley Beardshall
Stanley Beardshall
3 years ago

Sorry, Ed, you’ve clearly not noticed that the UK Labour party is dead. Exactly like socialism here in France, it isn’t sleeping, it isn’t hibernating – it’s dead, defunct, terminado. Don’t worry about what may happen in twenty years time, just enjoy the fact that the Militant Tendency are, poltically, gone.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago

In Europe Greens are pseudo Marxists have taken a lot off The SDP ,next years French presidential elections, will be interesting how will EU establishment, ”Fix” the runoff so Frexit Parties cannot win/.?

Last edited 3 years ago by Robin Lambert
Ian Barton
Ian Barton
3 years ago

Spot on – lumping “ethic minorities” together in this way is nonsense.
e.g the Conservatives are already the natural home for most of the Indian community, who are economically liberal, socially conservative and comparatively successful on nearly all measures.

Last edited 3 years ago by Ian Barton
kathleen carr
kathleen carr
3 years ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Except that this group tend to live in nice areas and the suburbs wheras Khan supporters-as it were -have taken over the inner cities. As authors like Douglas Murray show , the major group by 2040 of the under-50’s will be this group who are left-wing. The present majority old group were born 1940-1950 , so will be mostly gone by 2040’s. Those of Boris’s generation seem to be extending their youth-they often don’t have children until about 50 and prefer to be ‘the eternal student’ in outlook which is also left-wing. Boris by concentrating on green issues which appeal to the ‘everywhere’ rather than the ‘somewhere’ people- who are natural conservatives is even trying to alienate his major supporters. This pattern seems to be repeating all over the west.

David Wicks
David Wicks
3 years ago
Reply to  kathleen carr

People all change over time, the over 50’s will be more conservative in 20-30 years time than they are now in their 20’s. Also remember the Conservatives want to win, so as has been shown in every decade, they are now unrecognisable from the decade before, having consistently shifted left, as society has.
The article is amusing in its guesswork, even Andy Burnham will struggle to mesh ideologue Labour members together. If I was them I’d push for PR (part of manifesto) as a coalition is as good as it will get for Labour, for a long time!

Last edited 3 years ago by David Wicks
kathleen carr
kathleen carr
3 years ago
Reply to  David Wicks

There is a larger group in the 50-60 range who will become very wealthy through inheritance ( because of rising house prices) .However among the younger group those who are natural conservatives are not being helped. For example a couple who work in a supermarket and earn £40 between them would like to buy a terrace house for under £100,000. However they are all being taken town & city wise by Khan supporters and landlords are buying them up elsewhere. So they become the’ rent and can’t afford to start a family.’The new housing plans announced are for those able to afford £250,thousand + and are often bought by those escaping the cities which have become a bit too lively for them.

Andrew Raiment
Andrew Raiment
3 years ago

I used to bore people to sleep, telling them there’s no way Boris Johnson would ever be Prime Minister, so I guess anything is possible.

I also remember reading below the line comments in The Guardian around 2005, where the smug concensus was that the tories would be out of power for another generation precisely because of the demographic shift.

Last edited 3 years ago by Andrew Raiment
Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago

There is literally no question to which the answer is ever “leftism”, unless the question is “how can I get really poor really quickly, pay too much tax, and be hated for it?”
I simply don’t believe that anyone will vote Labour to solve their housing problem, or indeed any problem at all. Labour hates homeowners and indeed hates all private property of all descriptions.
It’s far likelier that as the older generation dies off, it won’t be able to sell its houses at the prices it expects, because the buyers simply haven’t got the pot.
If something can’t go on it will stop.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

Labour hates homeowners and indeed hates all private property of all descriptions.

Yes; except their own homeownership and their own private property. For others, the longer they keep them in overpriced rents, the more votes for Labour. That’s how the class war works.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago

I have learned over the last couple of days that Starmer owns about 10 million pounds worth of land. He probably hopes to sell it to a house builder. By God these people are evil.

D Ward
D Ward
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

And of course there’s Bliar, Mandelscum, the Milipedes and scores of other “left-wingers” coining it in via property…

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  D Ward

I still laugh at that photo of Miliband in his “kitchen”, which turned out to be his second kitchen, because he’s so grand he’s got two. My mirth only increased as he tried to kill the issue by explaining that he only uses the second kitchen.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  D Ward

Blairs Property portfolio is Rumoured to be £150million?…

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Source?

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

I have seen/heard it mentioned by one or two people over the last couple of days. Alex Belfield was one of them, I think, and he is generally too well trained not to assert falsehoods.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Ah. The old ‘bloke down the pub told me’ or far right shock jock ‘source’.

Niobe Hunter
Niobe Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

It was in a glossy magazine. I’m afraid I can’t remember which but something like Homes and Gardens.
he was interviewed with his ‘partner’ in his home, and they showed the journalist round. I suppose it was part of the PR attempt to make him more likeable or something.
anyway, the two kitchens were both shown by him, with his full consent. It was only afterwards that he and his team realised that this might not have had the desired effect.

Aidan Trimble
Aidan Trimble
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/13/ed-miliband-two-kitchens-use-smaller-one

Yeah, this ‘far right shock jock source’. What say you now Bridgeford ?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Aidan Trimble

I was tasking for a source on the allegation about Starmer: I have learned over the last couple of days that Starmer owns about 10 million pounds worth of land. He probably hopes to sell it to a house builder. By God these people are evil.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Colin Elliott

Fortunately for Starmer those 7 acres are on the outskirts of the salubrious settlement of Oxted.

Here in Arcadia he would only get about £70K.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Colin Elliott

Thanks!

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

HP?….

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

But “they mean well” according to Khalid Mahmood, as he resigned from Labour:

“They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.

But – do the public even believe that they mean well anymore?

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago

“Meaning well” shouldn’t even be a matter of consideration, ever. H¡tler meant well for the German people. Stalin meant well for the international proletariat. Mao, the Red Brigades, the IRA, the Taliban, they all meant well for all those they were concerned with.

Richard Slack
Richard Slack
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

that story actually surfaced early last year. Starmer owns a piece of land which he bought for his mother’s donkey sanctuary. It is not zoned for housing and is not worth very much, it is not for Starmer to decide its zoning

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Slack

“Greater love has no man, that he would lay down his life to buy a field for a Donkey Sanctuary”.*

(* apologies to John: 13:15).

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Probably to Greedy Tories ,Concreting never sleeps..

George Bruce
George Bruce
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

 as the older generation dies off, it won’t be able to sell its houses at the prices it expects, because the buyers simply haven’t got the pot.

I certainly agree that in a country with a reasonably balanced population and housing bought and sold among that population, there might be fluctuations up and down in price. What is and has been a gamechanger is
i the massive and continuing influx of people
ii the throwing open of the market to the world, which means it becomes one more investment choice among others
So although I agree the market may well have the occasional biggish temporary downward move, I am far from convinced that we are anywhere near an end to insane prices in the London area and other hot-spots.

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  George Bruce

I’m sure you’re right, George, although the weird thing about millennials is that they’re gung ho for unfettered mass immigration at the same time as objecting to high house prices, as though you can somehow have one without the other.
The drawback in Ed’s thinking, IMHO, is that it projects so far ahead it starts to resemble counterfactual what-if history, where only one actor ever does anything different. Eg, what if Germany had built 250 U-boats before the war instead of four battleships? That would have dished the Royal Navy, eh?! Well, no, because then the Royal Navy would have done something different as well.
It’s the same thing here. Other things will happen too. It was obvious in 1992 that Labour was not finished. It was obvious in 1997 then Tories were not finished. It’s equally obvious they’re not finished in 2040, and one way to know is that in 20 years’ time, nobody’s about to vote for more inheritance tax on themselves just as it’s about to fall into their lap.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

With the greatest of respect, had we really been on ’Adolph’s ‘ menu’, and had he built 250 U-boats, we wouldn’t have had much time to do anything about it before the ‘Weetabix’ ran out.

Even with a paltry 60 it was a close run thing as Churchill freely admitted.

Last edited 3 years ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
Zach Thornton
Zach Thornton
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

Millenials are not in favour of “unfettered mass immigration”. Millenials do not believe that immigration has been bad for Britain culturally or economically, broadly speaking. Inward migration accounts for a proportion of housing demand but the far bigger issue is that homeowners votes count for more because they actually vote. Local councillors get elected to prevent housing developments. The council stock has been decimated by the right-to-buy. Successive governments have taxed the homebuilding industry to build ‘affordable’ homes to make up for their own lack of council homes. Private developers pass the cost on to consumers and do all they can to get around affordable home provisions, delaying developments by months or even years.
Government must provide good quality homes for those inevitably left behind by a capitalist market. Let local councils borrow to build real affordable homes. Stop taxing developers and allow them to build. Invest in regional centres, as with the BBC in Manchester, to help bring jobs out of London. Instead, we get schemes like Help-to-Buy, which the government claim are for young people but really all they do is add to house price inflation. One suspects it is part of the aim because it further enriches the homeowner Tory base making huge profits from this disastrous situation, at least from the perspective of young people. In Britain the average age of home ownership and marriage is nearing the 30s. A telling sign of the real economic hardship experienced today. Although, we should all flagellate ourselves and thank our boomer superiors because we have smart phones and social media.

Last edited 3 years ago by Zach Thornton
Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  Zach Thornton

Millenials do not believe that immigration has been bad for Britain culturally or economically
Then they’re as thick as a Brexit-voting northern white van driver.
The Blair immigration added something like 8 million to the population, without any thought given to the necessary infrastructure, not limited to houses. The total housing stock stayed much the same, but somehow 8 million more people had to be fitted into it.
It’s very fortunate that the buy-to-let boom happened when it did, because renters live more densely than owner-occupiers. A five-bedroom house with three receptions would house an owning family of maybe five; as an HMO, it would accommodate up to sixteen.
Buy-to-let was what made the UK’s housing stock stretch as far as it did. But it couldn’t stop house prices rocketing to unaffordable levels for millennials just as they realised it was about time they bought. If they think mass immigration caused them no economic harm, they should stop complaining about house prices.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago

Depressing and sobering outlook; i heard essentially the same dreary forecast for some Western EU countries discussed a few weeks ago in a programme on Hungarian TV.
Today’s wokery is marxism version 2 (or “~ reimagined“, in wokese). The clunky, deeply ‘uncool‘ jackbooted v1 failed with the soviet union, so the new improved version is implemented via catchy popculture, ersatz snobbery and attractive consumer goods; all pandering to younger people’s cultural insecurity and conformist instincts. And it seems to work. The “long march through the cultural institutions”, through the backdoor.

And when the time comes, Labour will almost certainly capture once-unimaginable areas of the Home Counties and Thames Valley, just as the Democrats win almost all the most expensive ZIP codes in the US.

Already happening hereabouts (SW midlands). Sickening to see the amount of Labour banners on the best (Tudor, Queen Anne, Georgian, whathaveyou) houses. Like a punch to the stomach.

David Boulding
David Boulding
3 years ago

And Maros Sefcovic VP of the EU Commission trained in Moscow joined the Communist party in 1989 and somehow succesfully morphed into the EU, a home from homes.

JP Edwards
JP Edwards
3 years ago

Yes but …. Boris’s conservatives aren’t like the conservatives of old, they are economically left and culturally middle of the road. If Boris sets out to push back the woke washing of our institutions by the left, the Conservatives will keep themselves electable for a very long time.

John Jones
John Jones
3 years ago

The old “demographs will ruin the tories” is so discredited at this stage. Echos of votes for women will ruin the tories, fact is people will vote for any colour or ribbon if they think they will make them wealthier and protect their interests. We all know the cure to wokery is, in general, responsibility and wealth i.e build more homes.
Politics is just luck, opportunity, and then some more luck there is no inevitability

Last edited 3 years ago by John Jones
Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  John Jones

We all know the cure to wokery is, in general, responsibility and wealth i.e build more homes.

Where, and why? Allegedly, we are an “ageing society”, or so they say. Those who say so insist on importing an explosively reproducing demographic from the thirdworld (to “remedy” the ageing society as they say), and no amount of homebuilding will keep up with that.

if they think they will make them wealthier and protect their interests. 

A degree of increased wealth is meaningless if one’s general quality of life is devalued by many more degrees.

machina22
machina22
3 years ago

It’s interesting reading this argument presented from the left, rather than the right, especially the immigration one.
It’s still verboten for people on the right to point out that immigration is so high (and the immigrant population’s birth rate so high compared to the indigenous one) that they’ll eventually be out-voted – that there’s a demographic ticking timer that’s going to go off and once it does – boom! That’s it, no more right wing governments. People on the right do make these observations with friends and family of the same political disposition in private, and in comment sections online where anonymity is allowed, but not in public, and certainly not on the broadcast media, because there’s still a strong public taboo whereby discussion of immigration = a little bit racist.
What we see here, though, in this article, is an admission from a left-sympathetic position that this is the case (and that it’s a good thing, of course). Demographic replacement is not a conspiracy theory after all, it’s something that’s actively happening, and people on the political left know it’s happening – they just don’t want too many people realising until it becomes inevitable, lest the indigenous population and the small percentage of immigrants who are on the right decide to elect people who would, for example, actively work to lower immigration to pre-1997 levels. The fact that the author feels comfortable finally advancing this argument in public shows how much the scales have already begun to tip.
I agree with the author. The demographics are grim for the Tory party as it currently stands and great for Labour. Labour’s new coalition (the cities, students, the young woke, the very wealthy, immigrants, and to a slightly lesser extent public sector workers) is a shite one for winning general elections at present, but they’re all rapidly growing groups, so it’s a recipe for long term success. I think it was intentional too – New Labour decided to import a new electorate. The Tories, meanwhile, bought into the immigration ponzi scheme and were either too dim or too incompetent to return us to pre-1997 levels of inward migration once they retook office.
I read the other comments here before adding my own. Many are arguing that the Tories’ survival instincts are strong enough, and the party sufficiently chameleon-esque, that they’ll shift to meet the desires of the new electorate as soon as they start to taste defeat. Yes, they probably will – they’ll move to the left, to where Labour currently is, while Labour moves even further leftwards and goes slightly too far (as it always does). That’s not a solution for the country though, especially as it further Balkanises, just one for the Tory party and its own narrow survival.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  machina22

It’s still verboten for people on the right to point out that immigration is so high (and the immigrant population’s birth rate so high compared to the indigenous one)

 there’s still a strong public taboo whereby discussion of immigration = a little bit racist.

And that’s the heart of the disease. The public taboos, the ‘verboten’, the “racism = ultimate original sin”, the whole menagerie of dogmata.
As long as people keep squirming in indignant “i’m-not-a-racist-but” protestations, the left has the upper hand. They redefined what “racism” is, and by their new definition “racism” is sanity, decency, rationality, ethics by any sane measure. By their new definition i am racist through and through. And so i am, proud and loud. So when they call me a racist, my reply is “that i am indeed! Any problem with that?” with a beaming smile.
Don’t give them the upper hand.

Norman Powers
Norman Powers
3 years ago
Reply to  machina22

Aren’t you doing the same thing as the left here by taking immigrant votes for granted? That happened in the USA too and there was a general freakout when women and immigrants voted in much higher numbers for Trump than generally expected.
In the UK many immigrants are white Eastern Europeans. My experience of such immigrants is that they think communism is horrific and they have little trouble recognizing it in its new incarnations. So by immigrants you presumably mean only Muslims, and isn’t the current Tory government cutting off the flow of such immigration right now? At least taking the first steps – the new post-brexit immigration rules are all about salaries and skills, right? The Tories can probably win some of this bloc’s vote by (a) not treating it as a bloc but actually diving into the specific issues they care about and (b) pointing out that the radical left hate religion and Islam especially because it’s not sufficiently feminist nor LGTB friendly.
The Labour coalition described in the article is filled with contradictions and a sufficiently skilled right wing party could probably blow it apart, if it doesn’t self-destruct by itself.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Norman Powers

In the UK many immigrants are white Eastern Europeans. 

The white Eastern (Central) Europeans do not vote. They – most of them – do not come to the UK to settle, they come for a few years to build up some money and go home to start a life in their own countries with the money they made. Only a few may settle (career, marriage etc.) – but not a significant number.
That’s a core difference between EU and nonEU migration to UK; and between migration to the US and to the UK.
(I’m a Central European myself – and you’re absolutely correct, we do abhor communism with a fiery passion)

So by immigrants you presumably mean only Muslims,

Muslims and africans of any denomination.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johannes Kreisler
Clive Mitchell
Clive Mitchell
3 years ago

The one problem with this article is you can’t simply run a country by values, you also need nuts and bolts economics. And that is where the left always falls apart. It is inevitable that at some stage the Tories will lose, but in the main people don’t like poverty and that is what the Left is currently offering. Experience is a great teacher, for the majority.

Simon Newman
Simon Newman
3 years ago

If demographics were conclusive and pointing in one direction to ever greater Wokism then the Tories would have won in 1997-2010, when demographics must have been much more favourable. In reality people in 1997-2010 disliked Tory ideology, and most still thought Political Correctness was generally benevolent. People still don’t love the Tories, but they’ve learned to hate and fear the Left’s Totalitarian ideology. The more extreme it gets, the more minds slip from its grasp.
Britain in 2040 will not look like London in 2020, still less like Twitter in 2020. Betting on demographics as destiny might (or might not) work for the US Democrats; aping the US Democrats will not work for Labour.

Andrew Harvey
Andrew Harvey
3 years ago

The Tories just lost control of Tunbridge Wells council largely due to a local group of NIMBYs. It had nothing to do with a shift to the left. If anything, it’s the exact opposite.

David Boulding
David Boulding
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrew Harvey

Because the Conservatives pushed for a new town hall when they already had a perfectly good building which they proposed to change into shops… As if we needed shops in Tunbrdge Wells when so many are empty. It was a silly vanity project and voters are not stupid.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Andrew Harvey

Also Chipping Norton Oxfordshire, People Dont Want England to be Megaopolis of housing,Making Chinese pension funds,Oligarchs ,greedy developers want Immediate 33% profits or More ..

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
3 years ago

I think the author misunderstands demographic trends.
Enough immigrants are aspirational that a non-leftist, pro-business party (like Tories allegedly are but aren’t) can win big if they address this better.
Young wokist urban vegans simply don’t reproduce early enough and often enough to become a long-term force.
Sure, with no kids and no mortgage they stay leftist longer but then they die out.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

What do you really mean – is it that foreigners who come here to live are lazy scroungers? Is that because they are foreign?

Mark Gilmour
Mark Gilmour
3 years ago

Despite some positive trends in the 2020 election, this idea hasn’t worked out too well for The Republican party in the US where Hispanics turn out in droves for the Democrats despite being to the Right of white Republican voters on most social issues. What the Democrats didn’t count on is growing anti immigration sentiment among Hispanics in border states. And the fact that Hispanics on the whole are turned off by BLM rhetoric more than whites. The British woke class have actually been more successful at building a broad anti-white coalition under the amorphous ‘BAME’ umbrella whereas Hispanics in the US tend to live in closer proxomity with blacks in the US inner city and there is undoubtedly unspoken (in the media) antipathy between the two minority groups.

Last edited 3 years ago by Mark Gilmour
Tom Graham
Tom Graham
3 years ago

I have been reading this prediction for all of my adult life. It has always been wrong. It may well not always be wrong in the future, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Young left-wing people grown up, and those that don’t make up a minority who are absolutely repellent to everybody else and are also thankfully temperamentally incapable of winning electoral success in a democratic system.
Woke politics has certainly seized control of academia, the media, the public sector and the Democratic party in the US. But Britain is different to America, without their history of fanatical religious zealotry and puritanism or toxic racial history. And even in The US people are starting to turn against it.

Simon Newman
Simon Newman
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

Yes. There’s no particular reason to think that US ideological dominance of the UK will be as strong or stronger in 2040 than in 2020; or even that Wokeism will be as dominant then as now. I could see the upheavals of 2016 coming a mile off, very few in the media did – they always assume things will keep on going the same way.

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Newman

Personally, I think in 20 years’ time wokeism will be a mere forgotten footnote, proven conclusively wrong by events; like CND, say. In the meantime its lunacies will be as electorally helpful to Boris as the 80s loony left was to Margaret.

Louise Henson
Louise Henson
3 years ago

This is not the first generation to embrace revolutionary (or plan daft) ideas and it won’t be the last. Look at the sixties when mass Marxism became popular, especially among the young and educated. Anti-Toryism was the social norm among the young then too. The trouble is that those who embrace it always end up in an echo chamber thinking that everybody is just like them. They aren’t.
And as for history showing that populations tend to adopt the belief-system of high status members: if that were true we would still be living under the feudal system.
Revolutionary change usually comes from below because those are the people with nothing to lose and much to gain. ‘High-status’ people may like talking about it but always guard their privileges; which is why the children of socialists so often go to public schools.
And then get good jobs through their parents’ contacts.

Last edited 3 years ago by Louise Henson
Adam Steiner
Adam Steiner
3 years ago

I think this argument misses the point that the Tories (and Labour) consistently shift to political positions which are significantly more socially progressive in order to win votes, and the Tories with far more success. The Tories shift just enough to win elections, and Labour always shifts too far, too fast. Based on prior shifts, the values of the Tories in 2040 will match those of most of enough of the people of the day to win elections, and the values of Labour (because they take pride in this), will be too progressive to win power unless the Tories screw up.

Last edited 3 years ago by Adam Steiner
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Adam Steiner

Yep – in 20 years Tory policies will be more progressive than Labour’s today. Looks like the left will keep on winning even when it appears to be losing. Isn’t that what Ed’s talking about with his forty year cycles?

Judy Englander
Judy Englander
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Exactly. The centre moves ever leftwards. Who in a Tory government would argue against same s*x marriage today, yet it wasn’t even a glint in the party’s eye a few years ago.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

Or which Tory would vote for the restoration of Capital Punishment?

hugh bennett
hugh bennett
3 years ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

Margaret Thatcher made this point in her book, The Downing Street Years…A Labour Gov shifts things left, in comes a Conservative one that moves things back to the right but not all the way back, so over time the creep is ever leftward.
Given it is a good bet that the Conservatives should win the next election there is a chance of bucking this trend, but that would mean Boris waking up to the fact he has a huge majority, , see him start acting like a Conservative of true conviction using this powerful opportunity, and not becoming some sort quasi-quisling trying to interweave token wokeism into any political plan. (Oh dear,i forgot about Princess NN and Boris`s need to be loved by all).

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  Judy Englander

The centre moves ever leftwards.
Like it did between 1979 and 1997, for instance?
We have had a proper Conservative government, i.e. one with a majority, for just 18 months. Cameron’s was a soggy coalition, he briefly had a weedy majority of 12, and he then blew it and the next 4 years with Brexit.
I shall be very surprised if, with a robust 80-seat majority, the centre continues to move leftwards. What about that result says that it needs to? I’d say the opposite is more likely: to stand any chance of getting back in again the left will have to move right, as it has had to do before.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Don’t be too confident. Adolph & Co rather reversed the trend and although defeated this time round, as always “the spirit of the dead will survive in the memory of the living” *

(* apologies to: The Mission)

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

I agree. The Left is actually winning more battles by being in opposition. The Tories are floundering around (admittedly winning elections) and are actually rubber-stamping Labour policies. Even the unions are winning all the battles.

Simon Newman
Simon Newman
3 years ago
Reply to  Adam Steiner

I expect in 2040 the Tories will support eg Polygamy. Most people don’t really care that much about Polygamy per se. Maybe incest too. The more obviously hate-based ‘Progressive’ stuff will be heavily neutered before it becomes Tory policy though. They are never going to say “white people are evil and need to die”; that’s never going to be a vote winner for them.

William Murphy
William Murphy
3 years ago
Reply to  Simon Newman

Surely all parties (and the ever luckless taxpayer) are already supporting polygamy (in a not too public way) by paying Social Security for second spouses? Obviously favours people of a certain religious background….

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2011-10-12a.73631.h

Incest? Well, who am I to judge, as Pope Francis remarked about another pelvic issue.

Last edited 3 years ago by William Murphy
Norman Powers
Norman Powers
3 years ago
Reply to  Adam Steiner

That didn’t happen when Thatcher came into power though. Then the whole politics shifted rightwards, at least economically, such that Labour had to become “New Labour”. Compared to prior standards NL was centre-right!

Jim
Jim
3 years ago

There are an awful lot of assumptions here. Simple demographics could change, with more working class people having more children who don’t go to university.
Or actually, university could come to be seen as a rip-off (a feeling I’ve heard from young people I know who discovered they’ve spent £9000 on zoom lectures at home.
Frankly I think so many things could change that whilst the article is interesting, I wouldn’t put money on it 🙂

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Jim

I would never put any money on any predictions made by the commentariat. Or vomitariat, as I like to call them.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Jim

Or as my g/grandchildren are wont to say: Zoom, Zoom, Zoom, we’re off to the Moon, and we’ll be there very Soon!

Last edited 3 years ago by CHARLES STANHOPE
mike otter
mike otter
3 years ago

I agree with the vast majority below who call BS on mystic Ed’s piece. Wokism is stupid, racist, violent and its believers bear all the hall marks of anger related personality disorders. Think about the hopefully very few people you know who are either some or all of the following: violent, racist, angry and lacking in thinking skills. How does that work for them? Do they have a good life? thought not. Thankfully there are usually not enough violent and angry people in our society to propel such a movement into power. On the rare occasions it has happened reason generally prevails after a period of war. Its perfectly possible to believe the police are too heavy on BAME people and society takes insufficient care of the hindmost without being violent loonies like the wokists.

Last edited 3 years ago by mike otter
Martin Terrell
Martin Terrell
3 years ago

Ecellent analysis – as complacency is the Tories’ biggest weakness. If they are focused and ambitious, they have the moment now in which to set the cultural agenda. A start could be made with the schools and universities, with funds moving to vocational training (humanities may have to pay their own way); sort out the BBC, more affordable housing and support for families. Sorted.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Martin Terrell

Yes, they need to get on and do all that. But they won’t.

Vivek Rajkhowa
Vivek Rajkhowa
3 years ago

There’s a solution to this, purge academia and the entertainment industry. Anything that is woke gets purged.

Last edited 3 years ago by Vivek Rajkhowa
Colin Elliott
Colin Elliott
3 years ago
Reply to  Vivek Rajkhowa

Good idea. How?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Vivek Rajkhowa

Positive response to the Khmer Rouge solution, here.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

I don’t presume Rajkhowa meant shooting them in the head.
Booting them out from their positions in academia / media will suffice. The country could do with a lot more local fruitpickers and cleaners.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

That’s exactly what the Khmer Rouge did. Removed the ‘intellectuals’ for improper thinking and put them to work in the fields (the ones they didn’t shoot).

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

You appear to overlook the difference that those whom the Khmer Rouge removed were intellectuals. As opposed to the wokes festering in academia, who are anything but. They are anti-intellectuals.

RORY SMITH
RORY SMITH
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

You should read the comment again. He said ‘Anything that is woke gets purged’. Anything not anyone. Surely such distinctions of words are not beyond you, or did you just want to make a glib statement, irrespective of what was said. Interestingly, I see the Tories are to introduce legislation to enable people who have been no- platformed by universities, to sue them because of possible free speech infringements. I’ve also read a newspaper report, that on the back of the recent election success, some Government ministers want Boris to take on the woke culture. They see this as a way of making him more popular with the culturally right leaning red ( should that not now be blue?) wall voters. If I were you I would pull up a chair, sit back and grab some popcorn, as ‘ Woke Wars The Government Strikes Back’ could be coming your way soon.

matthewspring
matthewspring
3 years ago
Reply to  RORY SMITH

I hope you are right. This is a battle that is long overdue.

John Lamble
John Lamble
3 years ago

Let’s get one thing straight. I’m a Cambridgeshire voter who is of the boomer demographic (to use the ugly jargon of psephologists) and I didn’t vote Conservative in these elections because the Tories are no longer conservative enough for me and certainly not because I’m a representative of any ‘woke’ upsurge. This article is just pointless guesswork about whether people change their politics as they grow older and whether political parties change over time. The author should have put his editorial hat on and spiked his own farrago

Leon Wivlow
Leon Wivlow
3 years ago
Reply to  John Lamble

Did people vote Tory at the recent elections to keep Labour out? Or because they are Conservative/conservatives?

Mark H
Mark H
3 years ago

Reading these comments I’m struck by how many of us were immigrants to the UK.
But that’s actually not surprising, because all of our home cultures – Eastern European, South American, African, Subcontinent – have a strong overlap in values with British communitarian values.
But there is almost by definition a problem with communitarianism – that communities try to protect their own identity and are slow to accept outsiders. Mass immigration did not leave enough time for assimilation and has led to the formation of parallel communities – and thus an opportunity for politicians to make hay playing them off against each other, accentuating the differences.
I think the Tory journey of change has only started. As an increasing number of Tory MPs are elected in the Midlands and North the concerns of these areas have an increasing voice which does seem to be affecting the government’s priorities (at least, until the Tories start taking these places for granted).
Could it extend to breaking down the barriers between communities? Unlocking the common interests of all these people who share socially conservative values could build a new coalition even more durable than the current Tory-voting coalition.
That said, I think that the Tories will ultimately be undone by taking the electorate for granted – all ruling parties eventually do this.

Niobe Hunter
Niobe Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark H

The problem is that the definition of socially conservative values varies rather noticeably between the home-bred inhabitants and many of the new population. It’s a great idea to break down barriers, but when the barriers on one side are inflexibly religiously self imposed, and include practices and customs which are totally at odds, not just with custom but with the law of the receiving nation (women’s suffrage, tolerance of homosexuality , age of consent etc.)
the great missed opportunity was the failure of the education system to insist on English being the sole language, especially in the youngest classes, when children absorb language almost without effort. Instead we provided teaching assistants who made sure that it was unnecessary for children to learn the language of the country they live in. If an English language based education had been enforced for the Eastern Europeans they would mostly be absorbed except for their preservation of cultural traditions ( for example , carp at Christmas ). Instead many younger Eastern Europeans seem to speak a strongly accented and limited version of English, which holds back their participation .

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Niobe Hunter

Yes, yet again an opportunity missed. Presumably you are talking about Comprehensive Education?

David Morrey
David Morrey
3 years ago

Periodically we see a version of this story – ‘look at the demographics, when all the old fogies die off these left wing voting young people will be all that is left’, therefore right of centre political parties are a few years from extinction. The reason I am sceptical about those kind of claims is that the ‘old fogies’ in this analysis are people that were in their younger adult years in the 1960s and 70s – and at the time they were clearly understood to be the most counter-cultural and left wing generation this and other western countries had ever produced.
Scroll forward 50 years and that revolutionary generation are now the bed rock of the Brexit leave vote, the Tory majority and what we are still sometimes allowed to call ‘traditional values’.
I see the same kind of stories in reverse sometimes, looking at the more conservative values being recorded amongst the generation just coming to adulthood now. Does their attitude mean the extinction of left of centre politics? No, not at all. For one thing, political parties are a moving target in terms of what they purport to believe. But more importantly, people grow up.

Frederick B
Frederick B
3 years ago
Reply to  David Morrey

Exactly. When I were a young fogey traveling to work on the bus in the 1960s, I was alarmed to read an opinion poll in my Daily Telegraph (yes indeed, I said I was a young fogey, and now I’m an old one) to the effect that only 11% of people in my age group intended to vote Conservative. That was the generation which gave Mrs. Thatcher three election victories.

Mark Gilmour
Mark Gilmour
3 years ago

Does it really matter that much either way? In terms of implementing a small c conservative policy platform, the Tories have achieved virtually nothing in office (with the exception of dragging themselves kicking and screaming over the line on Brexit).

Unless the Right can begin to make inroads on cultural matters, politics will become an irrelevance as we gradually slide into an authoritarian post democracy dystopian nightmare.

Jorge Espinha
Jorge Espinha
3 years ago

Maybe. Or maybe something like what occurred in Arizona happens, really large republican support amongst Mexican Americans near the border. Why? How? Or why do French Muslims vote for FN? Or how come was Pim Fortuyn gay and the number two of his party was a black man? 2040 is a lifetime away.

Colin Baxter
Colin Baxter
3 years ago

So Ed’s book was wrong this time – but it will definitely be right next time?
Don’t think so

Mel Shaw
Mel Shaw
3 years ago

Far more likely that Labour will wither away and be overtaken by the Greens in much the same way that they displaced the Liberal Party in the last century.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Mel Shaw

see my other posts Already happening in France &Germany….

Corrie Mooney
Corrie Mooney
3 years ago

Ed West is displaying typical conservative defeatism here. He’s wrong on a number of counts:

  1. Wokeism is a self-destructive, dysfunctional, divisive dead-end: it will fail, sooner or later, it’s just a matter of what and how much it takes down with it. It is not the same as Christianity (though it has lots of Calvinism) – it’s mostly the opposite attributing value to fixed identities, as opposed to a universal value in human beings.
  2. The economic left is fundamentally at odds with globalization. Its internationalist component have clouded its position on a number of issues, but the incongruities have been mounting for 20 years. Social pressures are keeping it on board for now, but it can’t hold indefinitely and many will move to Blue Labour.
  3. The global liberal haves are ultimately at DEEP odds with the other two, and will have to retreat into a coalition with the neo-liberal conservatives.

There are also key new social conservative norms that are going to come into play, that will eat away at all three groups. The problem fundamentally, is that liberalism has run its course and is butting up against massive contradictions.

Last edited 3 years ago by Corrie Mooney
GA Woolley
GA Woolley
3 years ago

2040 is another country. So is Denmark. I think the Labour Party, what’s left of it, has a lot more to learn from the here and now of Denmark than Mystic Meggery about 2040

gearyjohansen
gearyjohansen
3 years ago

In the past society has ultimately adopted the attitudes of high status members of society because they have a convincing bill of goods for sale. More Rights and fairer treatment from society for all is something which all the successful social movements of the past have had to offer, and this simply not the case with wokedom, as will become increasingly apparent.
Anti-bias training can work, but anti-bias training which divides people into arbitrary oppressor and oppressed groups doesn’t work when its cornerstone is anti-whiteness- and is actually proven to reduce diversity and inclusion, wherever it has been tried. Anti-police rhetoric across the pond is effectively creating a humanitarian crisis, as homicides increase at three times the maximum annual rate on record, especially amongst African Americans, and most especially amongst innocent bystander children shot in drive-by shootings.
The Americans are in the process of dismantling their education system through ideology, making getting the answers right in Maths less of a priority and algebra optional, all of which will become apparent as their PISA scores rapidly decline. For ordinary people, it is difficult to fathom why Maths, Science, timekeeping, the family and the work ethic are all indelibly part of White Supremacy- but they are, even for formerly illustrious institutions like the Smithsonian.
The problem, for the woke, it that it is an ideology which can only live safely in relatively high status hosts- primarily white kids from households with higher than average incomes, and most especially highly educated parents. The author correctly ascertains that the story is about values, but fails to realise that there are psychological inhibitors which will prevent most from adopting the ideology over the long-term.
He should read the Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt, do a little research and take the Moral Foundations Test. I would particularly recommend reading about ingroup and contact theory- because what he will find is that as the ethos of Left-leaning parties shifts, so will more socially conservative minority groups. Working class voters may be the first to leave the sinking ship, but they will be by no means the last- progressives currently account for 8% of the American electorate, but despite purporting to champion marginalised groups, they are the most demographically white group in America, other than real white supremacists- a vanishing constituency.
Trump received record shares of the vote amongst African Americans, Latinos and Muslims, although George W. might be have surpassed him in one category. African American men both thought he was a racist AND voted for him- within some age groups the total for both topped 110% (the percentage who thought he was racist was 89%). And he was Trump, for goodness sakes! A great realignment is underway, what the author gets wrong is that the working class is only the first to be alienated by the cosmopolitan liberal values of a highly educated class, largely unaware of the concerns of ordinary people.
Try telling a Muslim his son is really his daughter- see where that gets you!

David Boulding
David Boulding
3 years ago

Nothing like starting work and getting a good dose of tax to make young people grow up and become Conservatives. People grow up when they pay tax and see their money being wasted by the state.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  David Boulding

‘People grow up when they pay tax and see their money being wasted by the state.’
Perhaps, but it never seems to stop the state wasting money on a grotesque scale, with nobody ever being held accountable.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Yes..idiot Starmer,Davey &others missed the Chance of Skewering Boris on Tories handling of Pandemic..only ”Talkradio” William Clauston (SDP) Peter Hitchens ( Old Conservative) Richard Tice (Reform) hammered Tories on Amount lockdown cost, its ineffectiveness, Vaccines have Saved Boris,maybe he will Knight Several Epedemologists?.. but Whitewash Public enquiry when it Comes .Could see a shortage of White Paint?…

zac chang
zac chang
3 years ago
Reply to  David Boulding

What like being shoveled into the pockets of Serco and other rich corporate mates of the Tory party?

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  zac chang

You are Student Gwant and I claim my £5.

Ian Moore
Ian Moore
3 years ago

There is one huge caveat – Ed comes from a position that nothing changes other than the demographic of the country. Not that the demographic itself changes characteristics. Aside from that it was basically a rant about house prices.

Victor Newman
Victor Newman
3 years ago

No. ironically, the politics of identity will destroy the Labour party through the politics of class based on the fashionista “anywheres”: splitting into Labour-in-disguise (Momentum) who are posh, secular priesthood; and the Greens (who, like melons are deeply red). The “somewheres” are going to win until 19th April 3014.

Last edited 3 years ago by Victor Newman
Camilla Bullough
Camilla Bullough
3 years ago

The article makes two major assumptions.
The first assumption is that the political centre of gravity of the country changes over time versus a fixed set of social mores. History indicates that this is true as evidenced by changing attitudes to child labour, womens’ position in society, sexual orientation and virtually any other social issue that is examined over time.
The second assumption is that the political centre of gravity of political parties does not change over time versus that same fixed set of social mores. History indicates that this is not true as evidenced by the shifting position of political parties over time on almost all social issues. Indeed perhaps the most defining characteristic of the Conservative Party is its proven ability to adapt to evolving social attitudes. It was David Cameron after all who legalised Gay Marriage an action from a Conservative PM which would have been unthinkable less than ten years earlier . The adaptability of the Conservative Party is doubtless facilitated by the fact that the Conservative Party appears to have no particular regard to any detailed or prescriptive ideology but is instead ruthlessly pragmatic in its pursuit of power
By the same token, the Labour Party does not seem to be able to check its instinct for adopting any new progressive, radical, left wing, single-issue cause as it arises. Indeed one could develop a theory of societal evolution in which the Labour Party is the incubator of new ideas with those ideas that society finds fit surviving, growing in popularity and then being adopted by the Conservative Party and becoming endemic.
In conclusion the article’s thesis is fundamentally flawed because whilst it postulates that the attitudes of society as a whole evolve it does not allow for the attitudes of political parties to do the same. The current political map of the country is fundamentally a result of the Labour Party being too “cutting edge” which has allowed the Conservative Party to be the party of “common sense” and “reasonableness”. As new societal attitudes arise in the future, the Labour Party would be well advised to be much less eager to embrace new ideas until they are more fully developed and popular in society as a whole and thus moving back to the much derided centre ground of politics. This might push the Conservative Party into “reactionary” territory and give the Labour Party the mass appeal it so desperately needs. If both parties just allow their policies to evolve at the same rate as societal attitudes shift then Labour is doomed to remain at the cutting edge fringe. To move forwards in electoral terms the Labour Party has to move backwards in ideas.

Last edited 3 years ago by Camilla Bullough
Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago

‘By the same token, the Labour Party does not seem to be able to check its instinct for adopting any new progressive, radical, left wing, single-issue cause as it arises. ‘
In a strange kind of way the Labour Party does indeed embrace even the most bonkers of new ideas, yet it simultaneously clings to the most demonstrably useless of old ideas. This has been obvious to many of for about 20 years. The problem is that it takes most people about 20 years to catch up with reality, during which time immeasurable damage is done to lives and societies.

G Harris
G Harris
3 years ago

‘Twitter isn’t Britain, but in a generation or so it probably will be.’

One of the scariest sentences I’ve ever seen written in the English language.

Brian Dorsley
Brian Dorsley
3 years ago
Reply to  G Harris

Young people hate Twitter. It’s for pontificating old fogeys.

G Harris
G Harris
3 years ago
Reply to  Brian Dorsley

That’s a relief. Probably why me being perennially young at heart doesn’t like it then.

Problem is, the vast majority of young people get old of course.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Brian Dorsley

Is it? If that’s the case I must sign up.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

So must I (if,Gid forbid) I knew how.

Bill W
Bill W
3 years ago

I am reminded of the pro EU pre-referendum dire predictions on the decades hence economic effects of Brexit.

Last edited 3 years ago by Bill W
Sidney Falco
Sidney Falco
3 years ago

A perfect example of an entire essay (and book) based on a single, false premiss.

machina22
machina22
3 years ago

People like Kemi (who I very much admire too), Priti, and Rishi are unfortunately the exception, not the rule. Most immigrants will – and do – cleave to Labour.
It would take a lot of work to prevent that. For example, it would at the very least require abandoning the concept of state-sponsored multi-culturalism and instead promoting a sense of Britishness and soft British nationalism amongst newcomers. And I don’t know how you’d even begin to combat the issue of divided communities living parallel lives, which is what we have at present in many of our towns and cities. The Tory party would also need to do a lot of work improving its image with immigrant communities without compromising its views.
Kemi is making tentative steps in many of these areas but suffers grotesque abuse for it and for her pride in Britain and being British. And she’s an immigrant. Could you imagine a white Tory trying to tackle some of the issues Kemi talks about? They wouldn’t last 5 minutes in her post, saying the things she says, before being pressured to resign.

Last edited 3 years ago by machina22
Tom Graham
Tom Graham
3 years ago
Reply to  machina22

Most immigrants will – and do – cleave to Labour.

That is what everyone said about Scots until 12 years ago, and northerners until 5 years ago. All right-thinking people knew that this was an immutable fact of British electoral politics.
When immigrants see the next Tory MP is Indian-British, that will help.

Colin Elliott
Colin Elliott
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

Maybe the next PM.

John Riordan
John Riordan
3 years ago

This is almost certainly not correct in the context of Labour’s prospects, because other parties of the Left are set to gain equally or more so from the demographic trends in question. The Greens in particular may well grow up into a social-democratic version of themselves, in which the planet is just as important as ever, but the idea that capitalism is the enemy is thrown out, replaced with capitalism as the belatedly-recognised saviour of the environmental movement (this will come as a shock to the ideological Greens, but is no surprise at all to anyone who understands where the word “conservative” comes from).

However, the threat to the Tory party is correct, yes. That doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t adapt to the new realities: the author may claim that the present Tory ascendancy is due to factors it never controlled, but it misses the point that the Tory party still needed to recognise the new realities and create a prospectus that was adapted to them. It did so successfully and is reaping the benefits; there is no reason why it may not do the same again. The article is correct that the challenge exists and may be painful to the Tories, it is incorrect to assume that the Tories cannot adapt to it.

It is, conversely, the Labour party that is in the most danger from this, not the Tories, because it is the Labour Party that is demonstrating the most resistance to change; the only question is whether it’s the Tories feasting on Labour’s corpse in 2040, or a new party of the Left.

Last edited 3 years ago by John Riordan
Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  John Riordan

If Tory luck holds, and it might, you may well be right. If it doesn’t, and the Greens and Labour can work together and get some better form of PR in place where government more accurately reflects the make up of voters then things could be very different. If Scotland does become independent, if Ireland is united….so many ifs. But the overall direction remains a post 2008. post Covid economics and ever more ‘progressive’ or ‘liberal’ society.

John Riordan
John Riordan
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Sorry, I can’t agree with the last point at all. Society may well be about as liberal as it ever gets at this point. What will always change are the issues through which society judges how liberal it is, sure, but we are probably never going to get so liberal as to broadly accept that there are 100 genders and that “woman” is one of them which can be adopted by anyone, because that may be regarded as a liberal view by some, but it is also profoundly stupid and baseless: as long as society remains rational, it’ll never happen.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  John Riordan

Only time will tell.

Niobe Hunter
Niobe Hunter
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Very poor societies are rarely liberal in the sense you mean. And boy are we going to be poor once the COVID bill comes due.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Niobe Hunter

No need for us to be. Currently 1% of the population of UK has 20% of the wealth – 10% has over 50% of the wealth. A bit of redistribution would help pay the bills.

John Riordan
John Riordan
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

What utter nonsense.

John Riordan
John Riordan
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

No: only evidence and reason will tell, and they have already given their answer.

Iain Hunter
Iain Hunter
3 years ago

I don’t buy it. There is a long time for conservatives to stamp out wokery in spite of their current lackadaisical approach to it. They will wake up.

Albireo Double
Albireo Double
3 years ago

The writer says this: “At some point, the “woke” worldview which has come to the fore in the United States since 2013, will start to spread enough to become electorally significant in Britain…, 
But it’s already happened. However rather than heralding a glorious “woke” future, the “woke worldview” is a significant driver of Boris’s wins in 2016, 2019. and last week. It has reaped a whirlwind which is only just beginning. “Woke”won’t last. Men saying they are women and being allowed to rape other women in women’s’ jails? Really? Really?? I don’t think so.
The author then gives himself (I suspect) some pretty grand airs when he says this: “That’s a minority of people, in an even smaller minority of seats, but history shows that populations tend to adopt the belief systems of high-status members over time. Twitter isn’t Britain, but in a generation or so it probably will be.
No, actually. Twitter really never will be Britain, and neither will London. High-status members eh? Let him dream on,. If he can’t recognise his own defenestration as it approaches, tolling a loud bell as it does so, then that I think may be one of his biggest mistakes in political journalism.

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago
Reply to  Albireo Double

Woke is all about anti white racial reckoning.
Which english speakers have a large appetite for this nonsense

Think how public opinion turned against the Democratic football lads alliance for going out against blm in London.

Last edited 3 years ago by Jake C
Ellen Finkle
Ellen Finkle
3 years ago

history shows that populations tend to adopt the belief systems of high-status members over time
Like with the Brexit vote? Or the rise of Christianity? Or Soviet communism? Anyway, who thinks that students and other Guardian readers are high status? Except themselves.

Kremlington Swan
Kremlington Swan
3 years ago

There’s another possibility. I was listening to a comedian talk about the hate crimes bill in Scotland.

He was of the opinion that the SNP was once again guilty of authoring really bad legislation, as it has in the past, and that it would eventually be scrapped.

What will probably happen is that there will be a few high profile court cases where it becomes clear that honest free speech is being suppressed, and then one of two things will happen:
either the legislation will be amended or scrapped, or the SNP will start to lose vote share.
Nobody in his or her right mind wants the dominance of woke. Nobody sane wants it.
If the Westminster government follows the SNP down this route, the same fate will befall it.
As with covid and lockdown, there will be nowhere for the disgusted voter to go. Certainly not Labour, nor the Lib Dems.
Astute members of a right of centre political movement may very well see this coming, and see an opportunity.

If the timing is right my guess is that there would be a political earthquake quite unlike any in modern times, with a majority of the electorate shifting en masse away from the two main parties and to this new party.

In all likelihood I will be dead by the time it happens, so I won’t get to see it. If it doesn’t happen, of course, I would rather be dead than live in a country under the yoke of those devils.

Last edited 3 years ago by Kremlington Swan
Derek M
Derek M
3 years ago

It’s bigger than that. The Conservative Party are doomed but they’re not conservative and no great loss. Unfortunately this country and the entire west is doomed. It’s been a long time coming (since 1789 maybe) but it is inevitable; because of demographics, the importation of Africa, Asia and the middle east into Europe and the replacement of the existing population along with a simultaneous destruction of the belief and confidence of the native population in western civilisation and Christianity by a Marxist elite which has succeeded in its long march through the institutions. Just in the last few years it has also been hastened by the financial crash and its mishandling, Covid/Lockdown, surrender to China (and its accession to the WTO), further economic destruction caused by ‘green’ policies destroying the economis of Europe and N America whilst they are of course ignored by China, India, Africa and the rest. I could go on but its happening, has recently accelerated and is probably unstoppable now. As the saying goes, civilisations die by suicide not murder. Pity really, I was rather fond of western civilisation, it is unique and the finest development of mankind and what comes after will be worse than the (not so) Dark Ages.

Last edited 3 years ago by Derek M
Dominic S
Dominic S
3 years ago

“Labour has a coalition designed for winning in 2040”
2040?! 2040?!! Are you quite sane? Nothing to do with 2040 can be predicted from this distance away. And Boris couldn’t give a fourx who gets elected in 2040. He’ll be gone and enjoying his pots of money, if he’s still alive. ‘Stark staring’ comes to mind.

Charlie Walker
Charlie Walker
3 years ago

Yehbut….. this all assumes that
a) The current “woke” view of the world won’t crash headlong into the real world
b) anyone will have the time, energy or interest to focus on such nonsense when they are confronted with having to survive in a whole post covid world where everything has changed and competition for busineses, jobs and the framework of our society has been hurled in the air like a game of pick-up-sticks
c) That the new generations and demographics are more of the same (I can’t think of a time in history that that has been the case).
d) why future immigrants will be the same as past immigrants
and even if none of that was the case, probably most baffling of all, why assume that Boris/Conservative Party/Tories won’t change with the mood of the country and evolve into another type of party of power? After all the party is totally different to that presided over by Theresa May just 2 years ago let alone past iterations.
Wheras Labour, apart from a blip under Blair, hasn’t managed to adapt or change in 50 plus years.

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago
Reply to  Charlie Walker

You idiot woke nonsense is being imposed on Federal departments in the US and corporate America.

Teachers in UK already teach their kids that UK is a racist country and that all white people benefit from “white privledge “

Caroline Galwey
Caroline Galwey
3 years ago

Does anyone else find it a little chilling that Ed West (a) thinks nothing of demonising an ordinary politician, Boris Johnson, as someone who has literally sold his soul to the devil – even in jest, in today’s atmosphere that sort of talk is worrying; (b) positively revels in the prospect of ‘progressive’ values being imposed coercively, and surrendered to by the conformist young? ‘Young people won’t rebel against wokery anymore than young people in late 4th century Rome rebelled against Christianity. And the new religion is stronger and more powerful, so much so that it can successfully dictate what society’s taboos are, and what is beyond the pale to say. No ideology can compete with that.’ Like that’s a good thing??!!!!
‘They’re more likely to be mentally ill, for example, which correlates with liberalism’? Now that’s something we need to hear more about, after the endless ‘studies’ that showed that higher IQ correlated with liberalism!

Last edited 3 years ago by Caroline Galwey
Caroline Galwey
Caroline Galwey
3 years ago

‘Awaiting for approval’ is an illiteracy. It should be either ‘Waiting for approval’ or ‘Awaiting approval’. And why is my comment still doing so after half an hour when all it does is quote the text of the article itself with a few polite and reasonable queries? Perhaps it’s Ed West’s text that should be awaiting approval.

Niobe Hunter
Niobe Hunter
3 years ago

Yes, it makes one wonder who on earth they have appointed as their gatekeeper.

Brian Dorsley
Brian Dorsley
3 years ago

Yes, I’m an English teacher and that particular mis-phrasing bothers me too. The comments section is fairly new so I assume it’s still going through some teething problems.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago

is this dashboard fixed.??
.My downvotes sometimes like democrats 2020 Victory,is fixed to Upvotes…is there a glitch?..

Curious Explorer
Curious Explorer
3 years ago

A study shows that Millennials will hold five times as much wealth as they have today and the group is anticipated to inherit over $68 trillion from their Baby Boomer parents by the year 2030. This will represent one of the greatest wealth transfers in the modern times.   
Post-Boomer generations have had to wrestle with issues not encountered by their parents and grandparents. Burdensome college debt that serves as a financial anchor, costly real estate, the high cost of insurance and the challenge of procuring well-paying jobs have all been anathema to Millennials. These and other issues have made their lives more difficult than their parents’ generation. Their fortunes will soon dramatically change for the better. They stand the chance to become one of the richest groups ever.
There are approximately 618,000 Millennial millionaires, according to WealthEngine data, as part of a study compiled by real estate firm Coldwell Banker. Millennial millionaires make up approximately 2% of the total U.S. millionaire population. The majority of Millennial millionaires have a net worth that ranges from $1 million to $2.49 million and fall between the ages of 34 and 37. Due to inheritances, trusts and estate planning, there will be a steady flow of Millennials getting very rich soon. Since the Millennial generation is smaller than the Boomers they’re inheriting from, the wealth handed down will be highly concentrated. Ironically, this could contribute to increasing wealth inequality. 
Enough said!!

Vóreios Paratiritís
Vóreios Paratiritís
3 years ago

I have seen the future and it is Tiger Patel. Suck this indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBajUoEjo

Ben
Ben
3 years ago

This is Ed’s Opinion USP – he ploughs this furrow all the time. Matthew Parris is doing it in The Times. They’ve got to write something I suppose. Deadlines call.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Ben

Parris was once very good, but that was almost 20 years ago.

Simon Sharp
Simon Sharp
3 years ago

“Twitter isn’t Britain, but in a generation or so it probably will be.” – if that isn’t a sentence to turn me into raging hardline conservative I don’t know what is…

Alex Camm
Alex Camm
3 years ago

Did I miss it but there was no mention of the influence of Islam that seems likely to grow over the next few years. How is that going to pan out?

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Alex Camm

How is the growing influence of Islam going to pan out? For details see Lebanon, Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Libya, Turkey, 7 July 2005, the Bataclan, Nice, Lee Rigby, the Charlie Hebdo massacre, Salman Rushdie etc etc…it’s a long list.

Helen Barbara Doyle
Helen Barbara Doyle
3 years ago

This is nonsense, I read a piece by Brendan O’Neill earlier poking fun at this left wing argument that home owners in the North are the elites, and those who choose to live in rented accommodation in the South so they can access high paid jobs in the city are the down trodden ones, but I thought he was exaggerating and no one would really argue that.
In reality we have an ageing population, the young will settle down and become more conservative, already the age at which they do so is getting younger, and the woke world view will always be a minority restricted to the world of Twitter because most people have too much common sense and are too busy making a living,

Brian Villanueva
Brian Villanueva
3 years ago

This same argument has been predicted by Democrats in America for over 30 years: we have the young, it’s only a matter of time. And yet it never materializes.

“They have strong support among the young, unmarried, renters and ethnic minorities — all the groups which are demographically ascendant.”

That is why it never materializes; these categories are all supposed to be temporary. Young ends with life experience. Renting ends with buying a home. Unmarrieds end with finding a partner. Ethnics end with assimilation. Policies that promote assimilation, middle-class jobs, and economic growth can (and do) blunt or even overwhelm all of these effects.

Ideas can win even when demographics aren’t on their side.

Last edited 3 years ago by Brian Villanueva
Matt Spencer
Matt Spencer
3 years ago

The Tories were considered doomed in 1997 when Blair won his landslide, although they very likely will be doomed again in 10 or 20 years, they’ll recover once more and the cycle will continue. Politics as (ab)normal.

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  Matt Spencer

Not by anyone thoughtful, Matt. It was plainly fanciful to imagine that Britain would become the only democracy in the world without a right of centre party simply because of Blair. 30-odd percent of the voters saw right through him. All that was required for the Conservatives to recover was a dose of Labour government. Every generation has to learn for itself about Labour.
It was as clear that the Tories were in trouble by 1992. A majority as small as 20 meant that they’d be a minority when the next election came, and that is the position from which governments lose elections.

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

The should not have committed Regicide in 1990. Most of the country was appalled, as you may recall.

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago

O

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Jon Read
Jon Read
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

On that subject (which is of fascination to me) do you believe thet Thatcher would have won in 1992 had the events of late 1990 not taken place. Hypothetical I know..but do you believe she would have defeated Kinnock in 92?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Read

Undoubtedly!

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Read

I

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

What irritated many of ‘us’ at the time was that under the ‘rinky-dink’ system that passes for Representative or Parliamentary Democracy in the UK, the demos were not consulted at all. It was an entirely Tory Party matter.

Predictably it started with a whispering campaign along the lines of “Maggie is going mad, just look at the Poll Tax in Scotland “ etc.

Then when the coup had been executed we were subjected to the very unpleasant sight of the Tory Party indulging in an internecine brawl to elect the new leader. I seem to recall the conduct of one Michael Hesselshit was particularly odious.

Inevitably the compromise candidate seized the Victor’s Palm, in this case the perfectly charming but utterly useless John Major, and hence the downward spiral to the advent of the wretched Blair creature.

Sic Gloria Transit Mundi.

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago

C

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Jon Read
Jon Read
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

agreed.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

I would agree but, didn’t the fixed term act just put more power into the hands of the incumbents? It’s not a fixed term at all if the party in power can call a vote on whether to have an election and the opposition parties feel they have to go along with it. How could an opposition sell the line that they aren’t going to vote for an election because they want to see the incumbents stay in power for longer to mess the country up some more?

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

And that?

Jon Read
Jon Read
3 years ago

Yes a lot can be traced back to the events of 1990!

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Read

1992 ERM condemned Europhiliacs in Conservatives to 13 years of opposition, As I continually state,it WONT be how Good LibLab-Greens are it’ll be People Like myself ”baby boomers ” Now retired, Sick of seeing Crass housing estates built in Rural areas (Mostly with No schools,Hospitals,Parking etc) which defeat Tories,
when Plenty of brownfield sites in City Centres ripe for development..Not Swish millionaire sites like Manchester!

Last edited 3 years ago by Robin Lambert
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

What does that mean? Unfortunately, unlike yourself, I’m no student of vulgarity

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

To be fair to Matt, things did look very grim for a long time. I remember a Spectator cover and lead in 2004 suggesting that Labour had bought so many votes by expanding the public sector so massively that there would never be any way back for anyone decent or sensible.

John Lewis
John Lewis
3 years ago

I can see a parallel to the increasing pressure by US Democrats to side-step the electoral college in order to take advantage of their overall voting numbers and control over the counting process.

In the UK a combination of the rapidly increasing Green inroads into Labour support from the young and woolly-minded plus the Lib Dem’s stubborn inertia will only cement “Conservative” rule under the FPTP system.

Can the leftists ever gain enough power under the existing system to impose PR? It’s going to need some very disciplined organisational skills and mutual trust between parties not exactly famous for either.

Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  John Lewis

I doubt it. They hate each other most of all; next they hate other leftists; then, a long way behind, they hate the right.
Labour’s schisms are well known but let’s not overlook the Lib Dems, who were originally two parties and still are. If they were capable of uniting, they’d be united as parties already.
The problem is that the essence of leftism is the belief that there’s only permissible view, namely your own. As your view is based on your moral expertise, everyone who disagrees with you is a contemptible and wicked enemy. This makes leftist coalitions very hard to form, and Labour has only been one when one or other faction has been massively in the ascendant.

Jon Read
Jon Read
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

Whilst it wasnt a coalition per se, we all recall the vision and execution displayed by the Lib/Lab pact of ’77!

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  John Lewis

Green inroads into Labour support from the young and woolly-minded 
Is this the rightist equivalent of the leftist portrayal of the Red Wall as thick bigots?

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Have you tried calling someone “woolly-minded”, then calling a different person a “thick racist bigot”?
Did you get a different reaction?

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Tom Graham

No. I try to avoid insulting people generally.

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago

Conservatives being the genius electoral victors they are, tend not think of basic human rights/needs. They see house building, for example, invariably benefitting private developers, as hard-nosed political ‘speculation’, bringing in a ‘nice little earner’ literally and in votes.
Having a home, shelter, is a basic human right, a human ‘need’ – food & warmth being the other basics.
We don’t have to own a home; we just have to be able to live securely, – specifically, paying no more one third of our residual income in rent. Local authorities could introduce rent controls with annual assessments of average salaries. Property speculation could be controlled – no more than two properties.
If shelter was dealt with justly in Britain, the social divide, which so many in this country apparently celebrate as the root of ‘Britishness’, could disappear.

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

Where have rent controls succeeded?
The solution is the market. The market isn’t working properly because the planning system is broken. Fix that and we won’t need any ruinous Stalinism in the housing market.

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

The motive is not to ‘kill’ the property owner.
Yes, agreed, having more homes built so that prospective renters have more ‘market power’ should be more effective, but I am questioning the whole ‘profit motive’ mindset behind provision of secure housing in particular, which can cause such social division.
To introduce rent controls so that the owner and the renter are not penalised requires sustained political will and no doubt cultural change.

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Tom Graham
Tom Graham
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

Economists agree on almost nothing, but all of them – the left wing ones and right wing ones together – agree that rent controls are a really bad idea that fail and are counterproductive wherever they have been used.

Colin Elliott
Colin Elliott
3 years ago
Reply to  Jon Redman

Like you, I believe in the market, but don’t agree that ‘fixing’ the planning system will cure the housing problem.
The reason is that unlike most things, land is finite, and in England and some parts of the other nations, the density of population is already very high, and increasing. The reason for this is primarily immigration, which itself is affected by the enormous increase in the human population world wide.
In my lifetime, I am aware of green fields everywhere which have been covered in cramped houses and gardens, fed by congested roads. We should preserve the remaining land as carefully as we can, and face up to why it is such a problem to provide affordable housing, and much else.

David Boulding
David Boulding
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

Being short of housing how sensible is it to invite millions of people to the UK in just 10 years? Because that’s what Blair did. His self-proclaimed “migration expert”, Jonathan Portes (BBC favourite “expert”), predicted only 13,000 Poles would come to the UK over a period of 10 years. Had Blair asked me I’d have advised him that every many and his dog would come; but then I have real experience of life unlike Blair and his advisers.

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago
Reply to  David Boulding

Yes, hard to deny 2004 EU accession, making UK comparatively easy to move to, had negative knock-on social effects, shortage of housing.

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

Those EU migrants don’t come to settle by-and-large, most go home after a few years of making money to start a life back in their home countries. Also it was a transitional trend – as their countries stabilise after decades of communist decrepitude, the need to emigrate disappears. It’s not them, but the non-working, rapidly reproducing thirdworld mass immigration what has the worst crippling effect on housing / infrastructure etc.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago

Mainly Poles Go back, their Living standards have risen in Warsawa.. Thousands come back even if deported 2,885 a week, 150,000 per year (Migration watch &ONS),,Uk ”Must be Racist?”

marcusaurellias
marcusaurellias
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

Next to bombing, rent control seems in many cases to be the most efficient technique so far known for destroying cities. Assar Lindbeck

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago

W

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
marcusaurellias
marcusaurellias
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

Who says? Berlin for one… Sorry reality is so triggering for you. Maybe next time socialism might work??

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago

F

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

If shelter was dealt with justly in Britain

How do you propose to square that with mass immigration?

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago

C

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

Yes.
Can you see Labour ever doing that?
Not that the tories have any better track record on that, but at least Patel is working on a fairly sensible overhaul of the current farcical “asylum” system right now.

James Chater
James Chater
3 years ago

I

Last edited 3 years ago by James Chater
Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

to encourage economic advancement, ‘levelling up’, over the world

Over the world. Ever asked yourself who encouraged economic advancement and lifted up Europe (or ancient China etc. for that matter)? It wasn’t some almighty Social Justice Fairy in the sky, sprinkling down civilisation like fairy dust at random. It was a continuum of people since prehistory.
You can’t impose advancement upon a society from outside, it has to occur from within. The long and failed experiment with Africa should show that. About time for the civilised world to cut losses, abort the experiment and leave them to their own resources to get on with life as they deem fit.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johannes Kreisler
Kremlington Swan
Kremlington Swan
3 years ago

Woke today, asleep tomorrow. Just like the hippies.

Malcolm Powell
Malcolm Powell
3 years ago

I think everyone here seem to have filtered out of their mind the impacts of: climate change, the domination of China, an Iranian nuclear bomb, uncontrolled migration consequent on climate change, automation and the impact on jobs etc etc. Voting habits will probably be influenced by threse and other factors as well as age

DenialARiverIn Islington
DenialARiverIn Islington
3 years ago

I’m sorry but “Labour will win – it’ll only take 20 years” leaves me entirely unconvinced. I’m pretty sure I heard very similar arguments in the 1970’s. For a start off, the argument presupposes that Labour will even exist – which seems unlikely, in its current form. It also fails to take account of the clear fragmentation of the anti-Tory vote and of the recent absence of alternative right-wing parties. The Greens look almost certain to advance further, which (in itself) undermines the LD’s and Labour.
Finally, and somewhat obviously, the time periods involved in this prognosis are so long that further unexpected changes (Brexits, pandemics etc.) are almost inevitable and yet unforeseeable.
Nah. It’s an interesting thesis but its more likely that traditional political problems will endure and, ultimately, will be more decisive.

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago

Even if Labour doesn’t exist a internationalist open borders anti white Liberal political hegemony will exist

John Stone
John Stone
3 years ago

The government are repulsive but Labour are even more repulsive for failing to oppose the government’s usurpation of the state: there is nothing there whatever to vote for – where all this political garbage will leave us in even a year’s time is anyone’s guess. Does Johnson actually run the government or is he just a straw figurehead?

Caroline Galwey
Caroline Galwey
3 years ago

You’re looking forward to winning in 2040? An entirely new set of problems will obtain by then, and need new answers. Labour’s answers were already wrong in 1975 and are wronger now.

Last edited 3 years ago by Caroline Galwey
David Foot
David Foot
3 years ago

What shocks me most is that in spite of all the harm Labour has done: Partition of India, successful colonies sent to the wall, the manufacturing of millions of refugees, the partition of the UK against England leaving England split and not represented against all the united nationalists represented, surely they didn’t expect that to work! A recipe for partition.
And I could go on, Student fees, the gold, the banks, the debt out of all proportion “there is no money” was the understatement of the century for Labour’s legacy.. and yet people still vote Labour. It is incredible, surely Marxism which is behind Labour has thoroughly failed. So can’t they get another party to vote for, hasn’t Labour done enough damage to be found to be terminally incompatible with England .. a different opposition by now .. please?
First of all, if we look at immigration, if we are lucky for once and loads of Honk Kongers come to the UK vaccinated against Marxism, that could derail any population plans which you may have, this would be the good stuff. The best immigration we could hope for, not what Labour threw at us in the recent past. This immigration would be coming from a really successful colony which has failed because of invasion and not failed colonies because of generic corruption and inability for all types of development.
Regarding conditions prevailing in the economy, if Boris can continue with the changes forced by Covid, there will be loads of offices to convert to homes, and much lower need for transport, while industrial activities will be boosted by the advent of new generations of printers and even new computing technologies so far theoretically powerful beyond belief. The amount of time and energy saved on unnecessary transport will generate a very different society. We talk of giving people in excess of two hours and what could amount to a pay rise.
Even the bad immigrants, the ones who are in net reception of benefits. As they or their children come up to speed (and if Labour don’t manage to “decolonize us too” and put us at their level). Hopefully they or their children will aspire to better things and if they advance (in a generation) they won’t be voting for more social costs, Marxism in all its forms is expensive and has always failed, so whatever you call what Labour dishes out, it will be suspect for anybody savvy and keen to make a good buck. To force outcomes is very expensive and bad for society, Marx was against competition, so socialism doesn’t accept “feedback” and will eventually crash, it is an open loop system of control, it is nearly a mathematical certainty that it will crash in to some wall at some time.
So if a week is a long time in politics, then twenty years are an entire era in which anything could happen, it is true that the 1997 labourites said/ suggested that they scoured Africa to bring here people who would vote Labour, that voting intention may be so if the aspirations of these people remain that low in 2040, but I doubt it, a generation and a half easy would have gone by for them and living in the first world may have changed the minds of many, I always think of a great hero of mine Dr. Thomas Sowell who actually I look up to.
What worries me is that Laborites as we speak are looking to a separation of London and of the North of England, so as I said at the start, I can’t understand how we are still talking about Labour, working classes or whatever need to find a different ideology that will help them without destroying the Nation or the Empire as it once did. An ideology better than the Conservatives would be one which sought to make our Nation more united and stronger economically and to also try and bring together as much as is possible the peoples of the old Empire which are our people (CANZUK). Today we are staring at two massive Marxist Empires which the Marxists of 1945 didn’t attack but allowed them to grow while destroying the British and European Empires. The real threat of change may be forced on us from outside, then Labour would have already done the irreparable damage to England it seems to seek to do consciously or unconsciously.

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago
Reply to  David Foot

You are so daft the Hong Kong immigrants kids will be anti white woke ideologues,openly hating anything english,hating anything white.
But still pro capitalist.

Check out aznidentity on reddit,see how much England and the English is loathed by east Asians (even when they economically do well)

Niobe Hunter
Niobe Hunter
3 years ago

How did the dog get past the Porter at the lodge?

Richard Lord
Richard Lord
3 years ago

It seems that Ed has bought his Telegraph and Spectator viewpoint to Unherd. I firmly believe that, for the sake of our democracy we need an effective left of centre party to balance and challenge the Conservatives. Sadly I don’t see any way back for the current Labour Party and the wishy washy Liberals are non starters. A new party to represent the majority sensible centre left will be required. I think he overestimates the likelihood of metropolitan views spreading out to the shires. I also believe that the young are more disenchanted by the state of our politics and behaviour of our politicians than older voters, so getting them to a polling booth will be a challenge. It’s clear that, for a number of reasons, lots of people relate to Boris. Given the pathetic state of the opposition parties he has every chance of being in power for another decade at least.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Lord

There’s no room for any more left wing parties.
It’s a crowded field already.
Either the Tories move to the right, (which might happen when furlough bills come knocking) allowing Labour room to move a bit back towards the middle, or other options will emerge on the right.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Richard Lord

see SDP….NOT Green

Gerry Quinn
Gerry Quinn
3 years ago

Twenty years is a long time in politics.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago

There are various reasons for this shift, but globalisation is the central theme; a process that has been speeding up since this epoch began in December 2001 with China’s admission to the WTO. 

A very good point there.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
3 years ago

Everyone is forgetting about the environment. If 2030 sees new cars being electric only, the government is presumably responsible for making sure that the transition is smooth. Sounds a bit rushed!!

Then there is the issue of oil/gas heating. Another big obstacle. Heat pumps for everybody sounds difficult.

The government could save itself by being the first in the world to ban plastic but, I suspect, with inflation of food prices.

Robin Lambert
Robin Lambert
3 years ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

Totally a Lie by The Tories, Firstly JUST to standstill we (UK) needs 8 Power Stations to Power Uk ,&Charge Electric vehicles 34m?….Will post Pandemic Britons be able to afford £28,000-£65,000 for An electric vehicle?..or £18,000 on A non-Gas, Non Oil Central heating system which has maximum 60f for Winter…er nOooooooooooooooooooooo

Matthew Powell
Matthew Powell
3 years ago

I’m alway very suspicious of demographics = destiny.

Those who fall under the progressive demographic, tend to be more likely to start voting younger, and skew the polling figures. Whilst the more traditionally orientated demographics, don’t start voting till later in life.

This tends to exaggerate the political leanings of the younger generations. As well as discounting for the potential for voters to change their minds, as they get older.

William Cameron
William Cameron
3 years ago

I think you are wrong. You say Ethnic groups support Labour. Its not so simple. First generation may do- third generation – the ones with kids at Private school and a Merc in the drive do not.

Mike Wylde
Mike Wylde
3 years ago

Don’t confuse what the twitterati say with what real people think. Just because Twitter says something doesn’t make it real. Play “Simon says” instead of “Twitter says”, it’s much more fun.

vince porter
vince porter
3 years ago

Evolution did not design us to be forever mindful of the plight of others. It seems to happen only when superfluous affluence is heaped upon so many. That will not continue. Evolution will eventually lead us back to selfish interests unless the wealth gap is closed.

Brendan O'Leary
Brendan O'Leary
3 years ago

Today’s hip woke young leftists are tomorrow’s Michael Foot , Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn.

Jeremy Smith
Jeremy Smith
3 years ago

I have pointed out many times the costs of German unification (2 trillion) as a reasonable comparison for leveling up.
I keep asking how is UK GOV going to pay for it? Tax Turnbridge Wells for Stoke? Increase public debt by 50% during this decade?
UK GOV has no plan and many commentators simply like to bang on about wokeism.

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeremy Smith

What?

Anti white woke nonsense is a threat.
The initiative to finance UK economic development is something we urgently need.

The money will come from the same place as the 350 billion in 2008 to bail out the banks and the current spending on covid-the BoE.

Charlie Walker
Charlie Walker
3 years ago

BTW…. I wouldn’t be surprised if the first paragraph finds its way onto social media as the troooth… Boris was contemplating suicide and he did a deal with a stray dog…. in that way is history documented now

Christopher Chantrill
Christopher Chantrill
3 years ago

Yes, well. Anything can happen in 20 years.
One clue. Here in the colonies in 2002 Judis and Teixeira published “The Emerging Democratic Majority” of the young, the female, the educated, and the minority. Just about 20 years ago.
Bit of a c**k-up on the majority front.

Last edited 3 years ago by Christopher Chantrill
hayden eastwood
hayden eastwood
3 years ago

This is a brilliant conjecture, and one that I find chilling. The only counter points to this that I can think of, on reflection are these:

  1. Quite often the professed views of the woke class are not reflected in their choices. For example, in Southern Africa, where I live, there are many woke Social Justice Warriors who espoouse a particular woke world view, but who nevertheless live contrary to this: in gated communities, with servants, with their children at expensive schools and,generally, enjoying the fruits of the colonlialism they so fervently vocally despise at dinner parties. In short, they embody the “cosmetic wokery” that is so common nowadays. The interesting question to me is how many of these people will actually stick to their professed views when, for example, they’re confronted by a wave of Somali crime in their area. I suspect, much like their expatriate counterparts, that their idea of multiculturalism is having some Oxford educated guy with dreadlocks and a tan round for dinner, and not any genuine desire to engage with their hallowed “other”.
  2. The immigrants that the Left court quite often don’t vote in the way that the Left would like . I saw this when I visited the USA and discovered the huge number of Latinos who voted conservative. As such, the demographic argument that more immigrants = more left voters, does not necessarily hold.
Last edited 3 years ago by hayden eastwood
Dustin Needle
Dustin Needle
3 years ago

From where I sit Labour is split – completely. If I vote Labour, do I get Blair or Corbyn? The only time the argument got resolved for an election cycle was by Kinnock taking decisive action within the party. I do get Ed’s argument about coalitions of various groupings, we’ve seen the GLC playbook replicated on a grand scale in Blair’s new Mayoral fiefdoms. I can see how it becomes a self-reinforcing cycle in these areas, and the university towns, and will always deliver a solid 180-190 seats however useless Labour may be. 
I’m just not seeing it winning over the UK in election terms, especially with Scotland almost a one-party state these days. I wouldn’t take for granted that the considerable number of voters with Indian heritage will obediently follow an “immigrants = Labour” line, nor the emerging class of skilled East Europeans, for whom life under this Conservative party must be like a socialist paradise in comparison to what they have experienced in their lives.
Politics used to be a battle of ideas but that has been lost because Starmer cannot put forward anything new and innovative without falling out with one of the wings of the party. He is now left with hindsight – “we should have done it this way” – because the media welcomes too easily the negative line on Johnson. 
In fact the media is starting to resemble an Opposition party so they have a lot more to answer for than they realise. The personal animosity towards Johnson by certain reporters borders on the hysterical. Too many of them arguing “Boris thinks black is white” and then dropping that argument the next day and going for “red is blue” etc – any old irrelevant nonsense, just to get traction on the news cycle. 
My experience is people increasingly seek out other news sources simply to get a check and balance on what resembles 24 hour public service news propaganda, reinforced by celebrity opinion, training the population to hate – hate Boris, hate Brexit, hate old people, hate anyone with a contrary view on vaccination or who is inclined to defend freedom of expression.
If you’re fed up with all this, then “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”. So voting conservative this time around seemed like a revolutionary act – as voting Leave eventually did.
For those of a certain age – growing up with trade union and IRA leaders being demonised, SIr Robin Day sniffing haughtily at labour Politicians, titanic rows on TV between Hesletine and Benn etc – it feels like the UK has shifted 180 degrees round. At my time of life this is a very strange sensation.

Peter Mott
Peter Mott
3 years ago

He stumbles over a very deep question: whether politics is really about values and culture or, conversely, the value stuff is just a superstructure over the real economic basis of politics.
So we read “in short, the political divide is no longer about economics but values” only to be told later that is is housing prices that is going to wreck the Tories.
He needs to sort out this contradiction.

J Bryant
J Bryant
3 years ago

I still believe that the recent success of the ‘progressive’ agenda has little to do with race, BLM, etc, and almost everything to do with economics. Young people have been largely deprived of the economic advantages enjoyed by their parents and grandparents because of the dog-eat-dog version of capitalism that has dominated the global economy since Reagan and Thatcher. Now they’re rebelling, and they’ll continue to rebel until they’re given a decent future.
The author of this article is probably correct that the conservatives are finished in twenty or thirty years if they don’t provide young people with some measure of economic security and a reason to show allegiance to their country and its history and values.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  J Bryant

[…] if they don’t provide young people with some measure of economic security and a reason to show allegiance to their country and its history and values.

I’m trying to process that sentence. I come from a very different background, the ex-eastern bloc. For economic security we had uniform poverty (unless you were a communist / affiliate), and grew up with zero in the way of future prospects / future anything. Instead we passed our days with whatever we could, which to a large part was developing allegiance to our country’s history and values – it was an act of defiance (rebellion) against the communist regime as much as genuine interest. The only route to economic security was through sucking up to the regime and denying culture, history, values (going ‘woke’, essentially) – yet whoever went down that route became a social pariah, and rightly so. Sort of “proud poverty”: the impoverished educated classes lorded over by the rich (but thick-as-p¡gsh¡t) communist “elite”.
That’s why so many things here in England appear upside down to me, i’m still trying to figure them out.

J Bryant
J Bryant
3 years ago

Interesting perspective. In the former communist countries, studying and identifying with a country’s pre-communist history was a way of defying the imposition of a communist regime. I’m inferring from your comment that the pre-communist society was viewed positively and perhaps with some nostalgia.
In the West at this time, I think the young feel that their traditional society, the one that nurtured their parents and grandparents, has abandoned them. For forty years it has adopted neoliberal economics which is basically a race to the bottom to provide the cheapest goods and services, even if the livelihood of formerly prosperous people is destroyed. Hence the exporting of well-paid jobs from western countries to Asian countries.
Woke politics is rushing in to fill the vacuum when young people feel alienated from their homeland. UK politicians will have to provide young people with a decent future and make them believe their country supports them, and, in turn, is worth their support, before wokeism can be defeated. Or perhaps it’s too late. An era in the history of the West may have ended, and has rightly been rejected by the younger generation, and wokeism is the beginning of what follows.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I’m inferring from your comment that the pre-communist society was viewed positively and perhaps with some nostalgia.

Yes. Our pre-communist society in the V4 was quite the same as ‘Western’ pre-war reality.

the young feel that their traditional society, the one that nurtured their parents and grandparents, has abandoned them.

But had it, really? Or is it just that the expectations shifted? The parents’ / grandparents’ generations were the wealth creators footing the bill for today’s university-degree-for-everyone youth. Which youth has the deindustrialisation and the population-growth stacked against them, now that the parents’ / grandparents’ generations’ jobs are all offshored. Offshored not by the grand/parents’ traditional society, but rather by the globalisation of which the university-educated youth is in thrall of.
The UK (the ‘West’) didn’t go through an abrupt ‘total reset’ like the ex-easternbloc did in 1945/46, and i wonder if it will succumb to a protracted, nasty process instead to get there. In short, i’m worried if things will have to get much worse before they can get better. Hope not.

Last edited 3 years ago by Johannes Kreisler
Jon Redman
Jon Redman
3 years ago
Reply to  J Bryant

How does telling young people they’re privileged racists if they’re white help them not to feel alienated, or that their country supports them? It sends the message that they are hated.

James Slade
James Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  J Bryant

I remember 15 years ago the Tories were doomed because of their lack of BAME voters. Look how that turned out.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  James Slade

Do you think, though, that the current success in winning majorities for the Tories might be because Labour lost Scotland by not being left wing enough and the Tories realised they could afford to lose those areas with large numbers of BAME voters?

James Slade
James Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

The point I’m making is that a week is a long time in politics. There is no point trying to predict the future by demographics because events get in the way. Remember the great clunking fist of Brown was going to knock out the Tories for a generation. What happened in 2008. Who, when Boris was elected who predicted the pandemic. Even more unlikely that anyone could have predicted the UK’s vaccine success and the EU’s failure. Indeed the Labour Party had it the other way around. We could be at the start of another Macmillan like period of growth, or another 70s style period of stagflation. We don’t know yet, but those will over power the effects of demographics.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  J Bryant

You might be right on economic security. But aren’t many young people also rejecting the notion of allegiance to their country and it’s values (whatever they are)? Not necessarily in an unpatriotic way but just that their lives becomes less rooted in being English or British and more rooted in their communities – which are mixed. As Ed points out, this may at the moment seem London or City centric but that’s where the money is and that’s where the population growth is.
If you grow up in a circle of Asian, Black and White friends with a smattering of gay and non-binary mates thrown in you’re not going to turn against them just because the housing or jobs market gets better. You’ll take the economic security and keep your progressive values.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Could be – need to wait for the 2021 census to see what the current position is. The 2011 census came up like this: 97.9% White 1.0% S.Asian. Don’t have any figures for sexual orientation.

James Slade
James Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

You quite simply don’t understand because someone is gay or Asian that they are going to vote Labour. Same story, Labour is entitled to your vote no matter what we do or say. You might want to ponder that in regards to the red wall.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  James Slade

I was making the opposite point. Not that they will vote Labour but that, for now, the Tories aren’t particularly interested in winning the vote in cities because they can win, due to the particular circumstances of FPTP and Scotland, without them. The Tories are picking up the socially conservative, English nationalist anti-immigration vote – their messaging will change as that vote declines in significance and they will morph into a socially progressive party when they can’t afford to neglect the votes in the cities or the increasingly progressive affluent areas of the country.

Tom Graham
Tom Graham
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Wow! That is ignorant on so many levels.

Johannes Kreisler
Johannes Kreisler
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

their country and it’s values (whatever they are)? 

As a foreigner, i can only list my perceived set of English values (as i perceive them), which are:
Humour, stoicism, courage, originality, sense of fair play, inventiveness, chivalry, curiosity (not an exhaustive list, just a few off the top of my head.) Today’s student generation seems to be lacking in all those, if their prominent representatives (in media / politics etc.) are anything to go by.

Niobe Hunter
Niobe Hunter
3 years ago

Mark’s values obviously don’t include the traditional use of the apostrophe to indicate possession.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  Niobe Hunter

I made a few other mistakes in spelling and grammar, too.

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago
Reply to  J Bryant

Nonsense,I’m young,would of supported a “occupywallst” style revolution but this is anti class perspective racial issue.

They Hate white people and the enemy is “whiteness”

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
3 years ago

I think Betteridge’s Law can help you here.

Lance Milburn
Lance Milburn
3 years ago

2040? We’ll have colonised the Moon by then! You’re pinning your hopes on 2040? Good God, Labour is finished!

AC Harper
AC Harper
3 years ago

Simply, no. The Tories are not doomed. Although the point about demographics is well made the essay assumes that the Tories are inflexible. This is not necessarily true. They have flipped on key policies in the historic past to remain relevant, and arguably Boris has benefitted or driven the Brexit flip from previous Tory EUphilia.
There are signs that further flips will take place before 2040… the Tories sidling up to Green policies for instance.

Mel Shaw
Mel Shaw
3 years ago
Reply to  AC Harper

The advantage the Tories have is that they are really about winning power, and adapt their underlying ideology, such as it is, to circumstances. They lose power when they misread the signs, or adapt too slowly.

Steve Gwynne
Steve Gwynne
3 years ago

This analysis unfortunately seeks to interpret New Toryism backwards not forwards and as such seeks to interpret the social democratic shift of New Toryism through an Old Toryism lens.

New Toryism is understood through the goal of creating a sustainable, resilient and sufficient future for Britain by levelling up spatial inequalities, investing in critical infrastructure for a post carbon economy and ensuring the fulfillment of import dependencies through trading agreements. This of course is accompanied by national collectivist cultural values which respects the genealogy of the settled population as well as newcomers who integrate with these national collectivist values.

For sure globalisation has impoverished the old industrial heartlands which is now being partially assuaged by the New Tory Build Back Better agenda
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/build-back-better-our-plan-for-growth/build-back-better-our-plan-for-growth-html#innovation

but the actual economic reality is that the rising energy cost of energy within the Developed World has meant we have reached Peak Prosperity and therefore in real economic terms, beyond monetary activism, we are now entering involuntary degrowth.

https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com/2021/05/05/197-life-after-ideology/comment-page-1/#comment-24881
https://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2021/04/27/signs-of-things-to-come/

As such, the Great Realignment is very much driven by economic factors but because most commentators don’t understand that the economy is predominantly an energy system, not a financial one, the effects of the rising energy cost of energy fails to register as a significant event.

Presently the Left have absolutely no clue that this state of affairs is even occuring whilst they scrabble to find globalist solutions that can satisfy the need for national sustainability, resilience and sufficiency.

In theory, globalist solutions to national fair shares of global ecological operating space will require a global technocracy which is absent from your analysis because you fail to acknowledge the economic/ecological dimensions.

Meanwhile New Toryism has already occupied the necessary social democratic terrain by which the inequalities and the impoverishment that will be caused by the continued rising energy cost of energy are acknowledged and therefore a rudimentary policy framework is already in place.

This leaves the New Left to explain how they will manage the rising energy cost of energy within a globalist framework with Biden to some extent leading the way. And to explain how global egalitarianism will translate as national sustainability, resilience and sufficiency.

Regarding culture then, New Toryism is committed to the goal of national sustainability, resilience and sufficiency which will require cultural cohesion between majority and minority cultural communities in order to enhance social productivity and to connect personal wellbeing with national wellbeing.

Again how will the New Left achieve this within a globalist framework.

In the absence of economic, ecological and social national policy, you argue that housing shortages, non-indigenous population demographics, urbanisation and Wokeism will be enough to convince thinking people into New Left politics which personally I find incredulous.

Thinking people of the future will understand perfectly well that these issues will need to be contextualised within national ecological, economic and social realities which require policy.

Similarly, thinking people of the future will clearly see that Wokeism is not a self critical understanding of Critical Theory that seeks to understand the moving centre between structure and agency. But is an uncritical imposition of self determined hierarchies of worth based on socially constructed notions of race, colour, ethnicity, class, sex and gender which seeks to uncritically universalise specific interpretations and beliefs.

Thinking people of the future will see clearly that this uncritical universalism is the antithesis of adaptation, ingenuity and creativity, qualities that will be highly important in a future world beset with a human growth/climate/ecological/energy crisis.

In conclusion, for the New Left to be relevant now or in the future, they will need to self critically embrace adaptation, ingenuity and creativity and they will also need to formulate globalist frameworks that can fulfill the requirements of national sustainability, resilience and sufficiency.

At present and no doubt in the future, the New Right have adapted to the Great Realignment which has been precipitated by enduring increases in the energy cost of energy which has rendered an economy driven by cheap energy redundant and a human growth crisis.

In this respect, future politics will be driven by cutting edge thinking and thinking outside of the box. Not the merits and demerits of luxury interior design and holidays.

Last edited 3 years ago by Steve Gwynne
Gary Greenbaum
Gary Greenbaum
3 years ago

I doubt if it will be as smooth, or as successful, as painted here. The only reason the woke adhere to the Democratic Party, a party with roots in slavery and segregation, is that it is a successful left-wing party. Without success from Labour, the woke will bleed into Green and SNP. The Green Party is the true home of the woke, but with first past the post, it is not successful, and the SNP will only get to an independent Scotland no longer represented in the British Parliament.
The last time this happened, the left won no majorities between 1906 and 1945, only minority governments.It may take longer this time.

Colin Colquhoun
Colin Colquhoun
3 years ago

But it isn’t a religion. It has no scripture to maintain cohesion over time. It relies on science and such for that, and those institutions are going to reject those tenets of wokism that will lead to their failure. Meaning you still have to produce results.

It’s a load of mores but I agree they are ascendant.

Fiona Archbold
Fiona Archbold
3 years ago

Well that was cheerful

eugene power
eugene power
3 years ago

Good to find a fund manager who can tell us the shape of 2040 .
So whats WFH, broadband , and 5G * for ??
*whatever that may be

J A Thompson
J A Thompson
3 years ago

Corbyn and Starmer and the MSM tpromoting one narrative and failing to hold the government to account are the reasons Boris is riding high, disgraceful, shambolic performance notwithstanding.

Jake C
Jake C
3 years ago

There is something intrinsic about the English,the fertile ground for anti white ideaology which targets all classes.

Open borders and anti white self annexation.

Our statues will be torn down,our flag changed ,we’ll be lectured too and condemned, “reparations ” will be paid to the whole world and open humiliation of white English people will be accepted.
Education will largely consist of cultural self denigration and espousing “white privledge” +”white fragility”

For some reason all these intellectual memes developed in english language societies.

Even my upper middle class friends have began to adopt this anti white shift.just pure hostility at people for being white.she slightly admired with south american ,and she’s suddenly adopted because she can sense the mood shift.

Riccardo Tomlinson
Riccardo Tomlinson
3 years ago

I’d turn this on its head. The Tories will remain in the ascendancy until the Left gets its act together. Labour as constituted are clearly the main blocker to this, rooted in the past as they are. They are obsessed by the Unions, public sector workers and defending vested interests.
You could say that the left vote is split, but if even one of Labour, the Greens or the Lib Dems had a well thought through programme, they would hoover up votes. I imagine that someday a charismatic, intelligent person will get a grip of the Greens and they will decide they want to be in power. Like the SNP did in Scotland they will just replace Labour.
Don’t get me wrong I’ll still be voting Tory, but it’s not like Socialism is going away. It will come back in some guise. It always does.

Hammer Klavier
Hammer Klavier
3 years ago

This is purely speculative nonsense presented as though it were superior insight.

David J
David J
3 years ago

By 2040, many of those left-leaning young ones are likely to have grown up and matured, thus leaving the dreary left behind to become a fresh Conservative cohort.

Tim Beard
Tim Beard
3 years ago

Life Long Tory Voter

I will never vote Tory again ever

Johnson is a Jonah poison for everyone other than himself and his friends

Johnson is the most stupid British PM in history

Covid Mania and Idiocracy

They will never get my vote again no matter what they do

Frederick B
Frederick B
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim Beard

Yes. I sympathise. In my case I finally made up my mind never to vote Tory again when I read Jenrick’s sickly and groveling invitation to the people of Hong Kong to come to Britain. What’s your excuse?

Tim Beard
Tim Beard
3 years ago

Once a 1/2 decent opposition appears

Johnson will be toast

Simon Phillips
Simon Phillips
3 years ago
Reply to  Tim Beard

When will that be though? He is, as the author says, a lucky PM, as was Thatcher, in that they both have enfeebled opponents. Thatcher had Foot, Scargill and Gen Galtieri, whilst Boris is up against Corbo and Sir Keith, with the next Labour leader being God knows who.

Tom Fox
Tom Fox
3 years ago

I don’t believe a word of this piece. The under thirties throughout my lifetime (born 1951) have always voted Labour in greater numbers than the older generations. I used to be a member of the Labour Party until I grew up. I owned my own home from the age of twenty-five and continued in left of centre beliefs until I was over forty. Furthermore, the write says himself that he is explaining a London centric phenomenon. It is broadly true that most metropolitan areas – vote Labour and attract large numbers of migrants who at first own little. And here perhaps is the nub of the matter; as people grow more affluent in life, their political leanings move towards the right. It has probably always been thus for most people, though my thesis does not explain Tony Benn and Poly Toynbee.
Where he is right, is on the matter of housing costs. The young have a real grievance there and we must address it. Mostly the issue is that since 1995 we have admitted about eight million migrants and built far too few houses to accommodate them. This must stop. The population of almost 67 million is FAR too large for the space available on this island. If we don’t want to live like rats, we had better stop people flowing in.

Last edited 3 years ago by Tom Fox
Francis MacGabhann
Francis MacGabhann
3 years ago

Nothing is inevitable. The idea that history has an arc, or that it is being “progressed” towards some predetermined utopian endpoint is possibly the most pernicious notion ever devised. It’s a workaround to sidestep the obvious poison of taking yourself as the standard of good. Once you start doing that, any excess becomes acceptable – “yes, we killed six million, but it had to be done and you’ll thank us for it later”. In our present world, it’s the reason for the odious “hate speech” laws and the reason why young coppers don’t see anything wrong with calling people to “check their thinking”. Viscerally, most leftists know this. It’s the ACTUAL reason for “hate speech” – if you have no case, you have to suppress the other guy.

irishbog28
irishbog28
3 years ago

This article makes the mistake of thinking that political parties are fixed constants. It’s not just demographics or age groups that change. If the voting public becomes more woke then the parties will too.
Which party from 1890 would resonate with voters today? They changed too.

Sean MacSweeney
Sean MacSweeney
3 years ago

You are forgetting the maxim of “If you are conservative when you are young, then you have no heart. And if you are socialist when you are older then you have no brains”

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

That’s racist, Jon.