It’s only recently that I came across the idea of “Schrödinger’s whites”. This is the notion that Jews are considered to be white or non-white depending on the political perspective of the viewer. To those on the murkier reaches of the far-Right, Jews are not white; indeed their non-whiteness is considered a threat to the purity of whiteness. But to those on the progressive Left, Jews are often considered archetypally white — powerful, privileged, wealthy. Whether you see a Jewish person as white or BAME has more to do with you than it does with them. It’s a matter of perspective.
Which brings me to a question about my youngest son. At eighteen months, he has an extraordinary crop of luminous golden hair. His cheeks are pink. He comes from a comfortably middle-class family, complete with all the advantages of a household full of books and two parents with PhD’s. The only signals that give away the fact that he’s not unquestionably a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) are the Hebrew words that he uses to describe the four corners of his world. Mummy is “ima”. Home is “bayit”. Milk is “halavi”. Sleep is “lishon”.
So where does he fit in with the “progressive” view of whiteness? Is he BAME?
David Baddiel’s new book, Jews Don’t Count, is a broadside against the widespread progressive assumption that Jews don’t fit in with the “minority ethnic” framework of today’s identity politics. In a culture where you can receive considerable censure for misgendering a transgender person, the refusal to count Jews as belonging to an ethnic minority is widely unnoticed.
Baddiel opens with an example from a recent book review in The Observer, which reprimands the narrator for operating from a “white-male-cis-het perspective”. Yet the character in question is called B Rosenberg. He wears a tie that proclaims “100% Kosher”. People shout things like “Fuck you, Hebrew” at him. It cannot be that the reviewer failed to notice any of this. Nonetheless, the book is still apparently written from the perspective of “white-male-cis-het” privilege.
I sat in my church and, in one sitting, read Baddiel list example after example of this sort of blindness, my indignation rising with his. Back in 2019, for example, Sajid Javid was widely hailed as the first BAME Chancellor of the Exchequer, totally ignoring — and thinking it irrelevant — that Nigel Lawson had been appointed to that role back in 1983, his paternal grandfather having changed the family name from Leibson to Lawson in 1925 (as my family changed it from Friedeberg in 1917). Likewise in 2017, progressives were up in arms that not a single BAME person was on the list of the BBC’s highest paid broadcasters — even though it included Vanessa Feltz and Claudia Winkleman. Apparently, Jews don’t count.
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SubscribeIt would be a terrible shame if the Jews were to position themselves as a separate group, just another example of the Identify-Grievance-Complex. On the other hand, given the hate they get from the left, the far right, and one particular religious group, they could not be blamed for doing so.
I do wish the right, in particular, would get over their anti-semitism. The Jews are pretty much the most hard working, entrepreneurial and useful people in the world. I wouldn’t expect the left to like or respect that, but surely even the nutters on the far right can respect Jews for the jobs they create and the fact that they are rarely dependant on the state for their livelihood.
From my own experience, I would say that the vast majority of casual anti-Semitic remarks I read or hear come from left-leaning people (and not far-left either). From a group who often make a big noise over discrimination, I find this puzzling.
I’ve experienced the same, Simon Cummings. And they often do so under the guise of “criticizing Israel”, a country they know next to nothing about … Oddly, the most virulent Israel haters I know are Left wing Jews, and some of the most ardent admirers of Israel I know are Conservatives (both Christian and Jewish).
Then again, it’s the Left that’s come up w/the trope, “White Privilege”. Under the auspices of White Privilege, financially successful Conservative blacks as well as impoverished whites – or Jews belonging to any social strata – can morph into that despised category. Conversely, Leftist whites can shed the dreaded White Privilege designation by claiming enough points on the victim scale (female, gay, real or imaginary handicaps of any sort).
Anyway, here in the USA, w/Jews making up, at most, 3% of the population (as opposed to, say, woman, who are granted minority status by the Left even as they constitute 51% of the population, or blacks, who make up more than 13% of the population) do have actual minority status. For whatever that’s worth.
Yes, scratch an ‘anti-Zionist’ and you’ll invariably find an anti-Semite underneath.
Do you mean I can’t be the former without automatically being the latter?
Not possible since neither Zionism or Zionist Israel represent Jews or Judaism, so the capacity for anti-semitism, i.e. hatred of Jews does not exist. More so because many Israelis call themselves Jews, but as atheist/secular cannot be.
No religion can have atheist followers. It is impossible.
Valid criticism of a State, and Zionism is a non-religious political movement, does not automatically translate to its major religion or anyone criticising the US would automatically be anti-Christian.
Wilfully ignorant assertions based on the writer’s prejudice, nothing more. She completely misunderstands Jewish history and equates Jews — a tiny minority with Christians, who dominate dozens of states. She doesn’t understand that Jews CAN be atheists because being Jewish is an ethnicity as well as a religion — life can be complex. And the obsessive criticism of “zionism,” may theoretically not be due to antisemitism, but in practical terms, usually is, as evidenced by this comment.
If being Jewish is an ethnicity then all religions would have such status. They do not.
Beyond religious metaphor, no religion is ethnicity.
An Ethiopian Jew and American Jew have exactly the same in common as an Ethiopian Christian and American Christian – THE RELIGION.
A Jew cannot be an atheist anymore than a Christian can be an atheist. It is impossible. It is delusion.
All Zionists are not Jews and all Jews are certainly not Zionists. Zionism is an atheist political movement which exploits Judaism. Valid criticism of Zionist Israel never reflects on Judaism and only reflects on those Jews who support the apartheid state. This is why increasing numbers of Jews are rejecting the Zionist State, including many Americans and young Israelis who are sickened by its actions and returning to the countries their parents and grandparents left to colonise Palestine.
One of the biggest communities is in Berlin so Germany clearly trumps Israel which says a lot.
Woody Allen is a famous atheist Jew.
In NI you might have been asked if you were a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist.
NYC is filled with atheist Jews and others who are non-observant.
Didn’t Allen say he wasn’t so much a Jew. but Jew-ish?
Thumbs down, largely for referring to Israel as an “apartheid state,” which is offensive to both South Africans and Israelis alike.
There is also a clear difference between criticising the policy of a state and hating its people. There is certainly plenty of vile ant-Semitism in the world, much of it emanating from Muslims as well as the fringe of the extreme right in Europe, but this is not the same as arguing against the policies of land acquisition by violence in the West Bank, or of race based migration policies with regard to settlement of people into Israel. Many Jews also object to some of the actions of the Israeli government – some of those Jews are Israeli citizens. Are they anti-Semites?
You either believe in universal human rights or you do not. The state of Israel treats non-Jews unfairly q.e.d.
Thumbs up.
Thumbs up.
The vast, vast majority.
“The Jews are pretty much the most hard working, entrepreneurial and useful people in the world.”
really ? Is that not doing the same as those who say the jews are (insert slur) ?
Indeed. The tendency to make generalisations about the character of nations, generations and ethnicities is a common feature of these pages.
Everything is a generalisation (sic). I mean, not all lions are dangerous but if you meet one when out for a walk it’s safest to accept the generalisation and run away.
close to the difference between anxiety and fear.
If there is a lion outside your door, you have every right to be very fearful.
If there is no lion but you keep imagining there might be, and are taking ridiculous unnecessary precautions, then you have great anxiety.
If you meet a lion while out for a walk running is not the best option, grab a whip and chair and arrange some flaming hoops in a circle. Habit will do the rest.
Are you sure it is safest to run away. This would only stimulate the predator response. I would have thought it would be safer to look it straight in the eye and walk towards it.
Yes, this is correct. On yet another thread today, people are throwing venom at the Chinese. It is a bit sad that clever people can only exist with generalisations.
Generalisations are never true, but they are true.
A positive statement is now a slur? Generalizations get made about all groups. Often, they are not complimentary. That is not the case here, so no, it’s not the same.
Yes and no. A generalised positive statement about an ethnicity means you accept that ethnicities can have positive or negative traits based on their ethnicity. If you say the Jews are inherently more hard working than other ethnicities then you are saying there are other groups you believe are inherently less hard working. That, though I’m sure you didn’t mean it to be, is racist.
But, in my experience, is true.
There are incompetents and achievers in all religions.
yes, but not the same degree or extent. I know it’s hard to accept positive generalizations about Jews, but do try.
What extent? Christians have long outperformed Jews and historically Muslims and Hindus have contributed vastly greater knowledge than Judaism.
I have studied many religions, including Judaism and found nothing to support claims of exceptionalism.
I have worked with and for Jews, including Israelis, as well as Christians, Muslims and Hindus, and found again no exceptionalism although Jews like fundamental Islam, Christianity and Hinduism seem to be more trapped in tribalism.
Jewish family and friends around the world demonstrate the same sort of difference as do Christians, Hindus and Muslims, so again, nothing exceptional. The religion is the link and the rest is nationality.
“Christians have long outperformed Jews and historically Muslims and Hindus have contributed vastly greater knowledge than Judaism”….this statement seems rather silly. How do you prove such a thing?
Jews and Asians perform exceptionally well (highest average salaries, professional awards, etc) in the USA, one surmises because of high intelligence combined with a strong work ethnic and tighter family ties than most.
such nonsense
The term racist is so heavily used these days and often abused too, that it has become less than useful. Making generalisations about large groups or races of people is very frequently a mistake, whether you are making a positive generalisation about them or negative ones. I try to form opinions about people as individuals, based on what they do and who they show themselves to be. If they upset me I have no problem in adopting a mode of strong dislike.
Matters grow more complicated if we acknowledge that we’re not talking about inherent, racial characteristics. Rather, we are looking at cultural norms, values, and mores. These attributes are not immutable qualities ingrained in the DNA, but learned behaviors passed down through family and community.
no, it may not be nice, but it isn’t racist, because there isn’t a racial element in the way you have phrased it, you just refer to “other groups”
Thumbs up.
Well, they have won a remarkable number of Nobel prizes relative to their population, and my experience is that Jews are very hard working, productive and entertaining people.
I shoud scrolled down to your excellent summary before giving my expanded version which probably oversteps the mark in these wide-a-woke times
Don’t hold your breath waiting for a considered or open-minded reply
Well I am no fan of the various Jewish religious sects such as those that someone wrote about in an article here a few days ago. But most or all religions seem to spawn these groups.
No problem with Big Media and Hollywood, even it it’s true that Jews control these industries. Nobody forces me to consume or pay for their content. It’s all garbage so I don’t.
Do Jews really control the financial system? I don’t really know. But the financial system is largely a consequence of the structures set up and enabled by politicians. You can’t blame people for taking advantage of it, just as you can’t blame people for gaming the welfare system which is also set up and enabled by politicians.
Thumbs up.
Slither back under your stone, Corbyn fanboy.
Corbyn has never stated or supported the views you ascribe to him.
Ah, the old furphy of the Nobels.
Let us take Albert Einstein. His parents were atheist so not Jews. He was educated by the Catholics so the Christians trained his mind. He explored spirituality later but was not a practising Jew in any serious sense.
How did Judaism help him win a Nobel Prize?
And there were other winners, called Jews, who had one Jewish and one Christian parent. How did Judaism wreak religious miracles there? It all sounds very racist and probably does not win hearts and minds to fly the fantasy flag that followers of Judaism are smarter than other humans. Anyone spending time in Israel soon has that delusion smashed.
The stand-out religion for achievement remains Christianity. But that means little without understanding the country and culture of each individual. And these days Nobel Prizes count for very little anyway.
Einstein would have mocked you for that stupid comment. He knew he was a Jew and was proud of it. And nobody says “judaism” wreaks intellectual miracles. You’ve got Jews on the brain.
Einstein would have agreed. He knew truth when he saw it. The facts are never stupid.
All religions are flawed and Judaism has some of the worst flaws. But, like other religions, it has positive qualities as well.
Unfortunately Israel gives Jews and Judaism a bad name.
only to you and yours, lady. much of the world is impressed, and with good reason.
You are wrong. Increasingly world opinion, including Americans and American Jews, condemn the backward, apartheid state of Israel.
In recent years many more groups challenging Israel have been set up by American Jews who totally reject what Israel is and does.
I can give you a list but you can start with….
If Americans Knew
The surrounding countries are far more backward, oppressive and primitive. There is no comparison.
“world opinion” based upon your detailed thorough research????
and your observations about American Jews, again based upon your profound knowledge of large numbers of American Jews across the very profound spectrum of between 4 and a half to 6 million people????????
your unpleasant anti-Jewish hate has nothing really to do with the modern State of Israel.
There are 15 or 16 million Jews in the world. The vast majority of us don’t control hollywood, media or banking. There is no apartheid in Israel, only an occupation that treats occupied population differently, as any occupier would. The chosen people canard is purposefully misunderstood to mean superior; it doens’t. As for “inter marriage culture,” whatever it means, it’s certainly not applicable to Jewish people only.
This is what prejudice does to people.
So you have not caught up with the Israeli human rights group, B’Tselem, declaring Israel is an apartheid State?
The world should be prejudiced against such bigotry and atrocities.
as in Yemen? do you advocate war and all the atrocities that brings. history tells us what to expect, opps we never learn, we never ever learn.
oh please, BTselem is viewed by almost everyone in Israel, without exception, as an extreme left virulently anti-Israel organization, not to be believed.
Bigotry and atrocities are everywhere in the world and always have been. ‘The world ‘has no opinion.
what do you mean by “occupied population”???
palestinians in Gaza and in Yehuda and Shomron are governed by their own palestinian authorities, they are not occupied.
There is a military presence in Yehuda and Shomron but not in Gaza, because terrorists attacking and killing Jews as recently as a few days ago still occur on a regular basis.
The “occupation” myth was used a few weeks ago to claim that Israel was denying palestinians anti-covid vaccination, while the truth is that for 25 years the palestinian authority has been solely responsible for its own health care and it failed miserably.
Arab Israeli citizens received vaccinations in the same way according to ages, vulnerabilities, occupational priorities, as all other Israelis.
Why class them as “flaws”?
I’m sure that many Jews are hard working clever and splendid people. They hold those qualities as individuals not as a member of a superior race. So do many Chinese, or white people. If you prove to be a superior performer, you achieve that status because of who YOU are. I am completely against generalisations about race be they positive or negative. It is a well known fact about performance and ability that the differences within groups are far greater than any differences which appear to exist between groups.
The propensity to intermarry varies amongst Jews. Orthodox Jews practically require it. However, there is so much inter-marriage amongst liberal Jews that some think it concerning, a dilution. Prof. Alan Dershowitz of Harvard has even written a book about the problems with too much inter-marriage.I have NEVER heard a Jew refer to themselves as ‘the chosen ones’ after living in NYC for 35 years.
Take care not to generalize ‘Jews’ – they are a varied lot, with varied beliefs & practices throughout the world.
Yes you can’t have it both ways. Either it is valid to make qualitative judgement on the basis of race ethnicity etc or it is not. If you claim virtue for one or several groups then by implication others are less so leaving it to others to assume who that might mean.
No it isn’t. Are we forbidden from recognizing statistical differences between groups (unless of course it is between black & white which must be systemic racism!). Clearly the author didn’t mean ALL Jews and it is a fact that Jews are one of the wealthiest ethnic groups and have made disproportionate contributions (see Nobel prizes). Lastly, and most obviously, recognizing a positive fact about an ethnic group can at best be considered the opposite of a slur.
That’s why the left hate you, you should be down trodden, with your hands out, and full of grevence, not successful despite everything, there little heads can’t handle it.!
If you assume those differences in statistics are due to inherently ethnic characteristics that’s racism. Saying Jews are the hardest workers because they’re Jewish is no different from saying the Poles or the Irish are inherently stupid because they’re Polish or Irish.
Followers of Judaism are not wealthier than followers of other religions. My lot certainly were not. Going back 400 years they were as poor as the Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Lutherans, Wends, Huguenots and Greek and Russian Orthodox.
And Jews are members of a religion where the only ethnicity is religious and that differs country to country and always did.
And if you separate out of those Nobel prizewinners, those who were atheist, raised atheist, i.e not Jewish, and those with one Jewish parent, the other belonging to another religion, the ‘performance’ of followers of Judaism becomes trivial. How many of those ‘winners’ were raised by practising Jews and were Jews themselves? Certainly not Einstein. The Catholics who educated him played a bigger part than Judaism.
Apart from which such claims of superiority just make the religion look childish and bigoted.
Jews have been despised by the likes of people like “Athena” irrespective of whether they were religious or not.
It’s only a slur if claiming that most of the exceptionally good basketball players in professional basketball are black.
Thumbs up.
Except having African ancestry can and does pass on physical genetic characteristics.
Pray, how does a religion do that? It doesn’t. Jews comprise all races and hundreds of nationalities and cultures and are as smart and as stupid as followers of any other religion.
you refuse to accept that jews — ashkenazi jews for sure — form an ethnicity, so none of your arguments hold any water whatsoever. Carry on banging on about belief, as though that’s the issue. it isn’t.
Ashkenazi Jews are European, largely German. Are you saying Europeans are an ethnicity?
Ashkenazi are linked by religion. Drop the religion as my ancestors did and you are no longer Jewish or Ashkenazi.
I fully understand how Israelis of Askenazi descent consider themselves to be superior to Sephardim. But bigotry is the name of the game there anyway. Remind me again how being Jewish creates unity?
I have known many Jewish people in my life and I am confident to be able to pick out jewish people just by looking at them. What does this suggest?
I think this can easily be a slur and it depends on the context – what is being said and who is saying it.
To quote a post below, if you are in a group and somebody is complaining that there are too many black people in the neighbourhood so you say, “But most of the exceptionally good basketball players in professional basketball are black.” That is a slur.
If you are talking to an audience which does not think much of Jewish people and you say “The Jews are pretty much the most hardworking, entrepreneurial and useful people in the world.” then you are in desperation mode. I think it would be better to just say nothing.
Why would anyone judge others on the basis of their religion? I have family and friends who follow many different religions, including Judaism, and I don’t find religions create universal qualities.
There is no Jewish people beyond religion and even that is not universal.
tell it to hitler, you ignorant fool.
Hitler is irrelevant. I am talking about the logic and teachings of religion. Religions do not make a people or all religions would have the same status.
I agree, people are individuals. I worked for a few years at a school with a lot of Jewish staff and students and saw little common. Except perhaps a playfulness with language bit like the Welsh.
Admittedly, Jewish history goes back a but further but they are so good at rugby as the welsh.
“The Jews are pretty much the most hard working, entrepreneurial and useful people in the world.”
Which begs the question why the stand-out religion for achievement for the longest time is Christianity and even Hinduism and Islam in their time have vastly outperformed followers of Judaism.
Because the discussion is about today, not 300 or 1300 years ago. Duh!
So, how did this miraculous ‘Jewish’ intelligence begin and at what point in recent history since you agree Jews did not demonstrate such ‘cleverness’ through their history?
We are a different group. Proudly so. Why on earth should we not be proud of our existence, which is almost a miracle given our history?
I think that the continued existence of the Jewish people through millennia and endless persecution IS a miracle. If you allow for miracles, and I do.
Thumbs up.
Most religions have been persecuted. Some did not survive, like the Cathars. My Jewish ancestors were poor but lived pretty comfortable lives with no more problems than the followers of the many other religions in my family.
Unfortunately the mythology and propaganda coming out of the Second World War, and the desperate desire to believe in Jewish exceptionalism – no wonder they do so well in the US – has created distortions.
The survival of Judaism is no more a miracle than the survival of many other religions. People remain ignorant of the horrific persecution of other religions throughout human history.
utterly clueless.
You don’t have Jewish ancestors.
Breaking down society into disparate identity groups is damaging to societal cohesion. I live in Britain. I am interested in fostering Britishness, patriotism and societal cohesion. We have FAR too much competition to fragment our national identity and too many people pushing grievance politics and sniping and even strident criticism of other groups.
Don’t forget that the ‘far right’ are normally economic socialists. Far right only in so far as they have been positioned there by the left to distance their idea of government control of the means of production from someone else’s idea of the same principle.
Agreed but they are also economic nationalists and blame the Jews for mass immigration. Do you know why this is?
I guess its to do with the historic issues Giles talks about – which come from c18thC and before in UK and later in Russia. Germany etc. I think its important to note the far right blame Sinti/Roma/Gay etc as much Jews and the far left blame Jews and rich whites. Hilarious because the far left are mostly rich whites and the far right a few rich whites leading a group of mostly poor whites. FYI i view anyone who broadcasts the words pickinnnie and letter box for women choosing niqab as far right. Thick, yes, but also far right and as weak as they are thick.
When Johnson mentioned “picaninnies”, he was lampooning Tony Blair’s white saviour mentality.
Yes, I’m aware of that, although those on the far right tend not to work for the state, unlike those on the far left.
If you reverse that you are saying everyone is lazier and less useful than Jews- it’s not a very healthy way of thinking, particularly if you identify to the group you are also claiming to be uniquely gifted.
One thing about having a little knowledge of statistics is that it tells you that moving from the average to the individual is futile. Knowing tha one group, on average, bears a particular trait tells you nothing about the individual people that you meet.
I don’t know about you but I only meet people and not representative samples.
Thank you for a sensible comment. Funnily enough I had a similar issue with aggregates earlier in the day. If you took the UK average age of 40 out of context we’d need no schools and far fewer hospitals.
And Jews are not a group. Many intensely dislike Israeli Jews and British Jews have about as much in common with American Jews as do British Christians with American Christians.
Religions are not united or universal and Judaism is no exception as spending time in UN Mandated Zionist Israel reveals.
British Jews have about as much in common with Americans Jews …..
Utterly ignorant, no doubt wilfully so. Jews in the anglosphere have LOTS in common, which is one reason they tend to gather together in many cities. duh!
In the same way Christians gather. I have said the link is religious and it is. Hindus and Muslims do the same thing.
Most Jews are atheists, but still identify as Jews. Of course you know that.
Thumbs up.
The far right (like their co-dependent colleagues on the far left) need an enemy. Historically Jews were designated scapegoat for everything, though that role may now be transitioning to Islam.
I like your post. I am not in favor of joining the Identity-Grievance-Complex, as it only fuels more resentment across society. That said, I really thought after 9-11, folks would say to themselves, “Jews are a productive, peaceful people, maybe they aren’t so bad after all.”
I am a Jewish, I am reasonably non-religious, but I am Jewish. I was born in the Soviet Union and grew up with systemic antisemitism of Soviets. Jews couldn’t enter certain Universities; Jews couldn’t get certain positions. My birth certificate mentioned that my parents are Jews (they were never religious). In my passport, there was a line telling you that I am a Jew. On top of systemic Soviet antisemitism, there also was ‘routine’ antisemitism. I live in the UK now. I don’t know if I am BAME or white majority or anything else of that sort, frankly speaking, I don’t even want to know. All we (myself and family) want is to be a part of the British community, and yes, we would like to remember that we are Jews in our family. However, neither radical left nor radical right ever let us calm and become an integral part of society. In the Soviet Union, they told us that ‘Jews sold mother Russia’. I don’t know to whom, and I also never got my part of the ‘deal’. It was just a ‘regular’ anti-jewish libel. In the West, we accused of having privileges. It would be interesting to know who provides us with those as I am certainly not getting mine. Now a bit about me I am working from the age of 16, while studying in the UK University I washed floors in Tesco and dishes in Pizza Express. Those privilege givers certainly could do better in my case. While doing my PhD here in the UK, I taught in many different places in order to sustain myself and family while paying full tuition fees as an overseas student. Yet again, my privileges eluded me. However, the one thing stays constant no matter where I am – I am constantly reminded that I am a Jew.
Michael
Michael, welcome to Britain. Like you, all the Jews I have known have simply been part of the British workplace and football team etc, not some separate group. Sometimes I wasn’t aware for a long time that they were even Jewish.
Thanks!
I’m a Jew too …… at the retired end of the age range. My grandfather was born in the Soviet Union. My parents attended synagogue on just the big occasions (eg NY, Day of Atonement and Passover) but this was only to please my grandfather in his fading years. My career was in gentile land and I never wanted to be recognised as a Jew, least of all to enable the observer to impose onto me a predictable Jewish stereotype. For the most part, I get away with it, unless only very occasionally I forget my traits of shrugging too much or talking too much about money (or wearing blue shiny mohair suits – aaaarrrrgggh never on this last one!).
You’ve given a good profile of yourself but you have left the $64,000 question unanswered: why do you think you are “constantly reminded” that you are a jew?
Do you wear a skullcap?
Do you have a prayer shawl sticking out of your trousers?
Do you take off too many Jewish holidays?
Do you keep talking about money?
Do you use a lot of jewish phrases?
Do you tell too many Jewish jokes?
Do you keep shrugging?
Do you live in Golders Green or Stamford Hill or Hendon?
Have you reveal having been to Israel two or more times?
Do you talk too much about your former years in Russia?
Do you mostly buy wholesale?
Is your surname Jewish or could it be minconstrued as such?
Do you have sephardic eyelids or a jewish shaped nose?
Do you read a newspaper from back page to front page?
Do you think Havanagila is a catchy tune to hich you can’t resist dancing?
What do I mean by being reminded? Well, let me give you an example when I think about the fact that Jeremy Corbyn could have been PM of this country I start to think maybe I shouldn’t grow my children with the knowledge that we are Jews.
He was never going to be PM. But it was still a mighty relief he got defeated resoundingly.
Corbyn makes my skin crawl.
I keep hearing these fears about Corbyn – he was apparently supposed to pose a existential threat to Jewish life in the UK (or a Corbyn led government was). But how was that supposed to work? The joint editorial in the three Jewish newspapers which made this claim didn’t really explain. But clearly some people were very worried. So what exactly was this threat? How was Jewish life under threat?
if you don’t know then you are totally ignorant of Jewish history, and of 19th and 20th century European history and economics.
You are not Jews unless you follow the religion. Religions are not genetic. We can take them up or drop them as we choose. If the religion is important to you then practice it proudly and let your children choose whether to carry it or toss it.
Your just wrong there Anthea, Jewish lineage follows the mother as Giles said. If your mother was Jewish you could be a Catholic Priest and still be Jewish.
Many primitive tribes, past and present were matrilineal, but there is no scientific basis for your claim.
But I do understand that some orthodox Jews do not accept converts as real Jews. Then again they don’t accept atheists either.
Patently, if you can convert to Judaism, and you can, or drop the religion and stop being a Jew, your mother’s religion is irrelevant.
My family had no problem dropping Judaism. It was as easy as dropping all the other religions.
Athena, converts are extremely highly regarded in orthodox Judaism. I am afraid you are just wrong in that regard.
Science appears to be your schema. But it’s only one and you cannot cancel someone’s claims or beliefs with a different schema. This is why any debate about the existence of God between atheist and believer is pointless. The scientist believes absence of proof is proof of absence and therein lies the problem.
I have a science degree. And I also have God in my life. I am grateful for both understandings.
no, orthodox judaism as an entity most definitely accepts converts, it just asks them to go through a more rigorous process of learning and preparation than the reform movement for example.
A person born Jewish who of a Jewish mother who “drops out” remains Jewish, even if they don’t practice, or join another religion as a recent Cardinal of Paris who still asked for the Jewish memorial kaddish to be said at his funeral!
A person born Jewish who wishes to drop out is “best off” marrying a non-Jew and bringing up the children in another religion. Bringing them up without any religion may lead them to search out their ancestry and some find their way back to their Jewish roots that way.
stop telling other people what they are. given your historical ignorance, you in particular are in no position to tell anybody much about anything, never mind what ethnicity they identity with.
I’m not Jewish but boy, does Hava Nagila have a hook or what? We sang a lot of folk tunes when I went to summer camp (Methodist) and one of those songs was Hava Nagila. I can still remember all the words and can’t resist singing along when I hear it.
well i figure you were jesting – but I am Welsh a couple of generations back but I lived in New york city and we all speak Yiddish in NYC – Jews or no – I talk about money all the time because I don’ have any.
– I shop exclusively at Goodwill – which is WAY below wholesale – sometimes I do read the paper back to front depending on what’s on the back page – If I could remember jokes at all, they would be Jewish – there is nothing like a Jewish mother joke if you remember Nichols and May
everyone shrugs these days since no one knows the answers to anything and shrugging is the only thing left to do I don’t wear a skullcap but I do wear a wig due to chemotherapy loss – does that count? I have been to israel twice and also remind people that of course Jesus was a Jew- no gentile would have turned water into wine.
Dorothy Slater
Utterly wonderful! I, too, am Jew/Non-Jew.
I have just Decided to be BAME. I fit the Criiteria!
Sorry you have the Burden of Being Welsh.
Perhaps take a look at my post a bit below.
My father was from North Wales – not the dreary slate mining South- he used to get utterly disgusted that the only Welsh who anyone ever heard of were Anthony Hopkins and Richard Burton both alcoholics. We do keep singing, however, through thick and thin – and shrugging.
The slate mining is in North Wales….
Not my experience of living in New York. Very loud, American English was spoken.
Thumbs up.
I’m not Jewish, but the left’s antisemitism fills me with loathing and disgust.
I’m an equal-opportunities loather – I also loathe the antisemitism on the right.
Me too, but there seems to be an awful lot more of it on the left.
If you believe in the Jewish God then you are Jewish even if lapsed. If you do not then toss it. My ancestors did and with no regrets. Then again they all tossed all of the many different religions my ancestors followed which has worked very well.
Why drag a religion around behind you if you don’t follow it?
You either haven’t read what I have written, or you have issues
When Hitler was rounding up Jews, he had no interest in whether or not they followed Judaism. It was on the basis of their parentage alone. Surely you must know that?
Thank you for sharing your perspective. Very well written and insightful.
Michael
I am a Jew born and bred in this country. My wife and I both come from financially difficult families and have not experienced any of the so-called Jewish privilege. Like you, everything we have we have worked for and earned ourselves.
Do not worry or be afraid about being Jewish. Be proud. Our communities contribute to society in many ways whilst at the same time retaining their identity.
Since Hitler, the refrain ‘Never again’ is one that we hold dear. Despite the behaviour of the Labour party over the past few years we stood tall regardless of what fear we had.
Never be afraid of being Jewish. Bring your children up to know what they are and where they come from. They will be better for it.
excellent
beautiful reply, wish you much success
I like Jews, the most interesting people in the world and not forgetting the outsized contribution in science and art from this tiny slice of humanity.
http://www.jinfo.org
By most metrics, the most successful people on the planet, David.
Personally, when I come across successful people, companies, processes, I like to study them to find out how I can emulate.
Sadly, some people seem to just want to persecute rather than learn. I think that says a lot about them, none of it any good.
And I’m not sure you could produce a similar list for some other ethnic groups.
Thumbs up.
Jews are not a people, but a religion. Jews comprise all so-called races and hundreds of nationalities like many other religions.
All humans are as interesting as each other.
In terms of achievements, the Christians stand out and even the Muslims and Hindus achieved more than followers of Judaism.
But truly, what on earth does it matter? Religion should be private not waved like a flag of exceptionalism.
Who the FK cares about this?
The big problem with Fraser and Badiel and many others in the media is that they are living in a bubble. In modern Britain, the vast majority of people don’t give a tinker’s cuss whether you are black or white or brown as long as you muck in and behave yourself. The vast majority of the UK population, probably have no idea what the term BAME even means. Most of them happen to be white and working class, a group which virtually nobody in the media cares at all (save perhaps that ‘waycist’ Rod Liddle). Their deprivation and under achievement far exceeds any other group. Their needs are entirely ignored by the media establishment AND THEY ARE BY FAR THE LARGEST GROUP IN THIS COUNTRY – the much despised white working class.
Getting back to the point, Giles Fraser may wring his hands about one or other of the media’s favourite victims and their deprivations. Most people just take folk as they are, ignoring the ridiculous and utterly irrelevant identity politics that so excites the left. Meanwhile, white people form romantic and life long partnerships with those they fall in love with without really noticing their colour. Mixed race relationships here take place at rates unseen anywhere else in the west. If you don’t believe that, just look at the numbers of mixed race children at any primary school.
about
So, Tom, the crux of your argument is that nobody should care about this because it doesn’t tally with your subjective experience or how much you perceive ‘racism’, ‘anti-Semitism’ or say, ‘Islamophobia’ as existing in our or wider society?
I assume you are white and (at least nominally) Christian?
That’s not how I read it at all. Did you miss this bit “the vast majority of people don’t give a tinker’s cuss whether you are black or white or brown as long as you muck in and behave yourself.”?
Thumbs up.
Simon I think you’re missing Tom’s point being that we all have subjective experiences – white working class, BAME, Jewish etc etc but that we should stop this devisive approach of victimhood and identity politics and start celebrating what we have in common and how lucky we are to live in this thriving democracy. We are pretty lucky multi-cultural bunch here in the UK.
Amen to that.
Tom, I am an American trying to figure out what BAME means. Please enlighten.
I’m from Australia, and it puzzles me too, but it seems to mean Black, Asian, Middle Eastern in the the UK context.
Whatever-it’s another qwerty confusion-welcome to 2021.
It’s an acronym, denoting “black & minority ethnic”.
Thanks!
Thumbs up.
It’s an acronym, denoting “black & minority ethnic”.
Google is your friend…
Seriously, I thought it meant BLACK AND MIDDLE EASTERN…Twenty years ago when my nephew in Perth (Australia) was eight and during one of our visits to see family, said: “Uncle Geoff, 98% of my school are White”. Quick as a flash, Geoffrey said: “What are the other 2%?” Innocently, he piped up: “Italian”.
Kev, not entirely sure I am comfortable having my older brother commenting on the same article at the same time as I am 🙂
After all, it’s nearly 1 a.m. here on the Eastern seaboard of Australia.
Or … are you … an IMPOSTER?
If you don’t have a younger brother called Maurice and you are having breakfast in the UK, then greetings anyway!
Black and minority ethnic was a version I’ve heard. Interesting, if so, that black has its own special sub category
BAME is an awkward phrase that people on all sides of the argument find clumsy. An interesting alternative I heard suggested the other day was ‘Global majority background’. Just as clumsy but makes a point.
I usually just say “non-white”, mainly because it winds up the wokescum.
Black And Minority Ethnic.
Yeah, right about ‘Black’ 3% of the pop. And within there is BIG difference. Those from Africa, Ngeria in particular, do very well. Balck people from the Carribean tend to be rappers, footballers and drug dealers.
This idea of ‘mucking in’ and behaving oneself is far too radical. Sounds like something uncle Monty said when allowing Withnail to use his house.
Tom Fox , I highly recommend the TV docu-drama about the murder of Stephen Lawrence. At one point Doreen Lawrence states that up until the savage, pointless murder of her blameless son, she had believed in the happy,fairytale world you describe. I recommend that everybody should watch that
production from the beginning to the end , with no distractions.
I don’t deny at all the horrors of what happened to Doreen Lawrence’s son. It was a foul crime as was the botched (deliberately?) police investigation. If you read what I said you will note my use of the term, ‘most people’ in describing the fact that most people don’t care about your ethnicity, but only whether you behave yourself and muck in with the rest of us. I am TIRED of hearing people whining about what happened to their ancestors hundreds of years ago. Nobody now alive was involved with those historic wrongs and there were historic wrongs inflicted on people of all ethnicities. My white ancestors were starved in the Irish famine and were worked to death in coal mines and mills and factories. Their life expectancy was abominable because of wicked exploitation and neglect. It was a bad old world. None of that applies now.
I agree with you. The thing to remember with UnHerd is that it is not representative of anything, apart from perhaps intellectualism. Contributors have to be clever or angry or have chips on their shoulders. As you say, most of the people I speak to every day have never heard of: BAME and ‘woke’ and also have never heard of UnHerd.
The article above is important in that ordinary working class people will be forced to follow the trends that people are discussing, even if they don’t understand them. So, if a man murders his black colleague and is found guilty he will get a prison sentence. If he murders the man because he (the victim) is black and it can be proved that he (the murderer) is racist, then it can be labelled A Hate Crime and the sentence can be about 50% longer.
The British public aren’t all as enlightened as you assume (perhaps from a lofty position). It’s not a value judgment, but we’re all influenced by in-group and our-group perceptions. A black or brown person (maybe even a Jewish one) WOULD stand out in a 99% white town. The idea that people would just get on if they “mucked in” is really naive. It just seems to fit in with your “nothing to see here” narrative.
I did not claim that there were no racist morons, only that the vast majority of the public don’t care about your ethnicity, but they do care about your behaviour. There are among us rapists, paedophiles, thieves, murderers and racists. All of these aberrant types are but a tiny minority.
Constantly whining on about how badly done to you are is a pain in the @rse for most of us, whatever your particular gripe with the world.
Non white people absolutely DO get on fine when they just muck in and show themselves to be a good sort. Millions do. Do they ever meet a moron who causes a problem? Of course. I meet the odd moron who is unpleasant to me too and I am white … So do most people occasionally. Moons behave badly because that is who they are.
It seems that perhaps you are fighting for your son to have his fair portion of the BAME identity goodies, currently being handed out. It’s interesting how the evolutionary instinct to fight for what ever privileges are available for your offspring wins out and you don’t attempt to pretend otherwise, no Christian view point offered here. Even when the privilege is the privilege of saying he’s not naturally privileged like other children he superficially resembles, so give him some artificial privileges. Or, people will exclude him because they falsely believe he is naturally privileged, when he isn’t so give him some artificial privileges.
Time to start thinking like a Christian again, put aside evolutionary instinct because you know where that leads and stop giving voice to your inner lefty.
I agree – sad really – let the kid decide when he/she is old enough. IMO Its better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven…
WTF! Unherd changed the middle two letters of english for “el infierno” to **. Poitical correctness gone mad, I am near fluent in Spanish, OK in French, Italian and Portugese and can get by in German. So you’d better get a bit less racist when hiring censors! Hope this stays up long enogh fo the readers to get the irony of WTF
I got that too.JFC & LOL. H.E.L.L., I say & it’s H.E.L.L I said!
The woke is here too apparently.
Thumbs up.
Very true.
It is also the case that the Israelites were fair skinned. It says so in the Bible.
That is how Pharaoh’s daughter knew the baby Moses was not Egyptian.
Oh well. Must be true.
Much to like in this article, but pathetically, I know, I couldn’t get past the irritation caused by the author’s use of that sneering acronym, ‘BCE’. Why not use BC ? They both refer to the same event, but BCE tries desperately to remove its overt religious content. Man-up, vicar!
What an ethnocentric perspective. Do you know how many different calendars the world’s people use? Or do you feel that everyone should use the birth of Yehoshua Ben Yosef (Jesus) as an anchor in time?
Because ‘BCE’ is still based on “..the birth of Yehoshua Ben Yosef (Jesus) as an anchor in time.” It just tries to deny that fact. Use any calendar you wish, but don’t euphemise it.
It’s not euphemising it. It’s saying it’s based on a construct that’s become dominant in the ‘Christian Era’. If he was born we don’t know when. If Pol Pot had successfully taken over the world no doubt we’d be using a different year zero.
Common Era, not Christian Era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era
no, they don’t, and you may not realize it but your comment is offensive, ask a knowledgeable Jew if you don’t understand why.
“…ask a knowledgeable Jew…”
Well, I could ask my, Jewish, wife.
You miss the point: ‘BCE’ is based on the dates of the Christian God just as much as BC, but it merely pretends not to.
Could you explain why it is offensive? (I am a messianic Jew)
Why not outline the supposed offence yourself? It would save time.
Assuming you can access this link, the interesting history of BC/BCE and AD/CE is set out and it has quite the lineage.
https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/history-ideas/2017/12/why-the-terms-ce-and-bce-replaced-ad-and-bc-and-why-jews-care-about-it/
Thanks for the link. Interesting.
Way back in medieval times Jewish people were shut out of most trades and professions. They weren’t seen as deserving of honest work. And they certainly didn’t deserve the honor of fighting and dying in wars.
So they took what work they could get or make. Work like being merchants. Christianity took a dim view of the mercantile trade, through their interpretation of Jesus’s disdain for money changers. Yet these services were nevertheless necessary. So Jewish people filled those roles in society because good, honorable Christians were too good for it.
Then ships became better. Then whole new parts of the world were discovered. Then trade boomed. Then the Renaissance began. Suddenly this upstart heathen people the Christians were trying sooo hard to oppress started becoming rich. Not just rich in spite of their oppression, but rich because of it! The unmitigated gall of them!
This is where the stereotypes originated. And I for one find the irony delicious.
Of course the subsequent inquisitions give it a bad aftertaste.
There was no conspiracy aiming to keep Jews out of decent jobs. There were guilds. A guild was aiming to increase the status of a profession. Thus the guilds barred low status people, as Jews and bastards, from joining. Jews were therefore forced to take jobs not controlled by guilds. Sanitary work, grave diggers, musicians and bankers were most likely Jewish in an medieval town. Indeed low status jobs but there was no conspiracy who put them there
Questionable to the point of garbage. There were laws, LAWS, preventing them from joining guilds or owning land or indeed wearing certain clothes. There was the blood libel. They were expelled from various countries, (including England), and forced to move elsewhere, leading to the classic accusation of the rootless “wandering Jew”. Charles’s second para is spot on, as they were allowed to lend money at interest, and good Christians were not – so they became wealthy … rich and despised. And they suffered for it.
Yes the guilds were powerful, but leaving the church and the kings out of the equation is either turning a blind eye or wilfully blind – and I am both a Catholic and a monarchist. Pretend it was “no conspiracy” if you like, but when a whole continent’s society is structured to force a group into a small number of jobs, and then punish them for being apart, then it sure looks like a conspiracy to me.
in many so-called highly civilized and cultured western societies, Jews were kept out of professions, In Canada till fairly recently a Jewish graduate could not obtain an internship in medicine to become fully licensed. Jewish hospitals were set up NOT to treat only Jewish patients or offer kosher food, but to give work to Jewish doctors who were being excluded elsewhere. Most European countries – and Britain when I applied to medical school – had what was called a “numerous clausus” which essentially meant ‘we shall only take a limited number of Jewish applicants’, and in London Jews of my age knew which schools not to apply to because then those admitted no Jews. Fortunately that has changed.
Sad, but spot on.
I have a letter my mother’s Headmistress wrote in 1930 as a recommendation for a job at the Post Office when she left her school in Hackney, East London. Her Headmistress states ” Although she is Jewish , she is British born and will make an excellent Civil Servant “. My mother’s father ( Barnett Friedberg) was so angry about the mention of her Jewishness that he wouldn’t
allow her to go for the interview. The Headmistress was , apparently, aware of the prejudice in the Civil Service and was trying to help her.
Thumbs up.
You are either ignorant, or you are just lying on purpose. Either case isn’t good.
How about both..?
Thumbs up.
Oh dear. I suggest you do a bit more research, Stefan. This has happened throughout time. Hungary passed laws in the 1930s placing limits on the number of Jews who could practice medicine, law or even go to University. This was before they decided to just capitulate to the Nazis and allowed them all to be shipped off to be murdered.
A primer: History of the Jews in Hungary – Wikipedia
No conspiracy but Guilds barred low status people! Hmm, sound very much like a conspiracy or to be more accurate , a blatant stitch up . Who decided that Jewish people were low status and what on Earth are you doing putting’ Jewish, bastards and low status ‘into one category! Shame on you
So there was “no conspiracy” but there were guilds that purposely shut Jews out of certain lines of work.
Did the guilds form themselves and were jews randomly selected for exclusion?
What a bizarre, uninformed and racist statement. Without getting into a linguistic discussion of the meaning of conspiracy how about substituting a “collective consensus.” One thing we know for sure is that anti-semitism is not a collection of random acts of discrimination.
The ‘left’ values ethnic minorities insofar as they can use them. This is because the ‘left’ is no longer supported by the working classes (see the collapse of the Red Wall). The left calculates that Jews cannot be used and therefore don’t count.
To watch over the next few years is the ‘ethnic drift’ in both UK and US politics. Asian origin British voters have begun to drift towards the Conservatives and away from Labour; Hispanic voters have begun to drift away from the Dems towards the Reps and even the black vote for Trump doubled between 2016 – 2020 (from very very little to very little but still, doubling is doubling). It was white working class voters, formerly deplorables, who won it for Biden. The Dems want to allow more immigrants in as they believe they’ll win their votes. This is the demographic play to watch between now and 2024. Although I think it will make itself felt very heavily indeed in the mid-terms.
The rest of the topic largely concerns identity.
Labour in UK tried the same stunt as Dem Rats – works where the Bridari guy is labour, but most Blair/Brown/Labour migrants are Moslem, from east of the Nile, and they value hard work, honesty and family above other things, albeit through their cultural perspective. These values are the polar opposite of Lab/Dems.
Britain had an ethnically Jewish prime minister, Benjamin Disraeli, as far back as 1868.
In the U.S., today, where only 2% of the population are Jewish, 35% of the first 100 names on the Forbes 100 richest Americans were at least half Jewish in 2019. If the concept of “white privilege” is valid, then the same reasons would suggest that the concept of “Jewish privilege” is even more valid.
There is privilege but the idea of white privileged is a bit of nonsense except in particular contexts. Many ‘white people’ are very definitely not privileged.
your conflation of money and privilege is interesting and implies that any race or ethnic group that earns good money in spite of severe discrimination and racial discrimination is actually ‘privileged’. And, conversely your line of argument also says that all those who don’t have money but are white are also not privileged
Maybe the word “privilege” is invalid.
A slight aside, but don’t overvalue the PHDs, They confer little advantage outside the narrow field they dive into, and often give their owners a false sense of intellectual superiority over those who did not pursue them.
and I suspect you didn’t?
Of course you do …
Your comment did have the aroma of chips.
Rest assured my shoulders are “chip free” .
I come from an extended family of post-graduate folks, many of whom opine too confidently on topics they know very little about.
-and yours is fishy…
I’ve got one and I agree with Ian.
Thumbs up.
Sometimes described as getting to know more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing!
A false sense of intellectual superiority? A) what does that mean in practice ? and B) I really doubt that many PhD holders have much sense of any sort of ‘superiority’ . In these days of materialism, superiority tends to come with having ‘loads of money’. A PhD is definitely not a route to riches.
Yep. Check out Aron Bastani (although his is a dodgy PHD) or Prof. David Miller. A PhD on media bias for Israel. Its all down to Blair: If you were teaching tiddledywinks to underachievers at Redcar poly you suddenly became a professor.
Thumbs up.
No one is “BAME”, a lazy, meaningless, offensive portmanteau term.
It is only useful for lazy people when when want to lump a whole load of “other” people together, either to be able to address the “problem” comprehensively, such as liberals trying to a fix the mostly non-existent problem of structural racism in the UK. Or it’s used by activists wanting to claim greater numbers for their cause than really exist.
The idea that Jewish people are the only people left out of “BAME” is not true. I am not BAME. I am a British Indian. No BLM activist speaks for me, and no white liberal worrying about “BAME” people can address my concerns.
Race is not like sex, where there are only two categories (yes, I know exactly what I am saying) so simplification does not render the discussion meaningless. Chinese / Jewish / Indian / Black African / Middle Eastern etc all have different experiences of not being White British. Maybe Irish people, Spanish people, Norwegians etc feel the same. I think we are all rather lucky living in the UK in the 21st century.
White privilege is a myth.
But minority status for ethnic Britons is mathematically guaranteed, by fertility rates alone, even without further influx, within our lifetimes if under fifty. Why are Europeans alone to be denied right to their own homeland which “the left”, ie big business/officialdom/academia promote for non-Europeans as “self-determination”?
I think this is because the Baby Boomers decided to have mass immigration and can’t imagine themselves in a minority. When they die, their grandchildren will be.
Hang on, it’s the baby boomers children having all the mixed race kids that will create the mixed race majority you talk about. The boomers offspring will be the majority.
Big business = “the left”? Really don’t think so.
AF Neil was on Twitter recently crowing about how many years out of the last 60 were under Conservative governments. If you’re unhappy with the state of Britain in 2021 (as we ‘labour’ under a whopping 80-seat Con majority), I think it’s clear to which party you should direct your fire.
What a fatuous article.
“Whiteness” is rapidly becoming reserved for people who have no card to play or no card they wish to play when they are either seeking some advantage for themselves or trying to excuse their behaviour.
The “actually, I’m not really white, I’m fill-in-the-blank so how dare you, etc…” has become a powerful weapon of deflection for anyone who wants to use it.
I wonder if Nigel Lawson considers himself to be “BAME”.?
I wonder if Nigella Lawson does! She’s arguably the whitest person in England.
Who knew that one had to “have a card to play”. That seems quite a fatuous idea, Sidney.
How about “actually, I am white but come from a tiny tiny minority that has been deeply persecuted for millennia?” – does that work better for you?