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Covid could become the new common cold Even if we don’t eradicate the disease, we'll end up able to live with it

We can't go on like this Photo: JOSH EDELSON/AFP via Getty Images

We can't go on like this Photo: JOSH EDELSON/AFP via Getty Images


July 21, 2020   7 mins

One of the hardest things, for me at least, about the whole Covid-19 period has been coming to terms with the timescale. In March, back when it was all unfolding, it was frankly weird to think that this — the strange new rules on who you can see and when you can leave your house and what life is like now — was going to be how we lived for months. Even four months later, the idea that it’s going to carry on for many more months or a year is kind of difficult to grasp.

But the big hope has always been the vaccine. At some point, we’ll develop a vaccine that works, we’ll build factories that can churn out millions of doses a day, and then we’ll all be set free. That’s the way out. If you’ve been anything like me, you’ve had that as a sort of promised land. I kind of imagine a great hand emerging from a cloud to deliver it, like God in a Terry Gilliam animation, with a plainchant choir singing in the background.

That hope is important, so you may have been alarmed if you read something in the last few days that seemed to say the hope was false: that herd immunity is impossible, and that vaccines won’t work, because immunity to Covid-19 only lasts a few months. “With coronavirus antibodies fading, vaccine hopes fade too,” said one particularly doom-laden headline. “Immunity to the coronavirus may only last a few months,” says another.

This comes off the back of a preprint from scientists at King’s College London, which looked at 64 patients who had had coronavirus (and 30 uninfected controls), and tracked their level of antibodies in the months after infection. It did, indeed, find that in a lot of patients — the ones who’d had a milder case of the disease — the number of antibodies in the blood decline quite quickly.

What that doesn’t mean, necessarily, is that there is no long-term immunity, or that vaccines are pointless, or that our only hope is for treatments. Let me try to explain why.

First, it absolutely is the case that with many coronaviruses, reinfection is possible. (Although we call Covid-19 “the coronavirus”, there are many others. There are four different seasonal coronaviruses that cause the common cold; SARS and MERS, much more severe diseases, were both coronaviruses too.) 

With the seasonal cold coronaviruses, says Rupert Beale, group leader at the Crick Institute’s Cell Biology of Infection laboratory, about 90% of people have had at least three of them by adulthood, and will, on average, be reinfected with each of them about once every five years.

Babak Javid, a professor of immunology at the University of California San Francisco, agrees. But both of them make an important point: just because you can be reinfected, doesn’t mean that the reinfection is as bad as the original. Javid says that “the only definitive data we have with immunity and coronaviruses” comes from studies from a few decades ago, so-called “human challenge” studies, in which people were deliberately given the common cold and then their immune responses were tracked. 

Crucially, they found that if patients had detectable levels of antibodies before they were given the virus, they were immune. But, as you’d expect, people who didn’t have the antibodies got a cold — and then developed antibodies. The studies found, as with the current coronavirus, that the number of antibodies in the bloodstream then tailed off rapidly. 

A year later, the scientists tried infecting them again. They “were virologically affected”, says Javid – that is, if you swabbed them and tested for a virus, you would find it — but “they had no symptoms whatsoever, even in people with no antibody response”. The period in which they were themselves infectious appears to have been much shorter, as well.

Part of what’s going on here is that antibodies are only part of your body’s immune response to infection. Antibodies are proteins that latch onto infectious agents like viruses and bacteria and destroy them; they are produced by cells in your blood called B-cells. The precise shape of an antibody determines whether it will be able to destroy an invader. Very roughly, if an antibody turns out to be effective at killing some virus in your bloodstream, your B-cells will start producing loads more of that antibody to kill the virus. Then those antibodies will hang around in your blood, and your B-cells will “remember” how to make them, so next time the virus turns up, your body will be ready to fight them off.

But there’s more going on. There are also T-cells. Again, very roughly (and with apologies to Dr Beale if I’ve misunderstood his explanation), there are two kinds of T-cell. One helps B-cells produce antibodies. The other, “killer” T-cells, detect the presence of (usually) virus in infected cells of your body, and then kills those cells. They’re important in this story.

“Broadly speaking,” says Beale, “antibodies prevent infection; killer T-cells help you get over disease.” Just like antibodies, killer T-cells have disease-specific responses – if you have one of the common cold coronaviruses, your body will have a T-cell response to that coronavirus.

That is, probably, part of why — even in people who have no detectable antibodies — reinfections are much less severe than first infections. You may not have enough antibodies to prevent you getting the disease in the first place, but you do have the T-cell response to fight it off quickly and easily. It is very possible, says Beale, that that is what will happen with Covid-19. “It’s behaving exactly as you’d expect for a respiratory coronavirus,” he says. Javid points out that in both SARS and MERS there is a very strong T-cell response “even five or 10 years later”.

There’s another point, which is that the tests used to detect antibodies are (deliberately) not very sensitive. The tests are designed to avoid false positives, because telling someone that they’ve had the disease and are immune when they’re not is much more dangerous than telling them that they’re not immune when they are. So the threshold for a “positive” response is quite high.

The necessary tradeoff is that there are more false negatives. By analogy: say you’re trying to decide whether someone is a Terry Pratchett fan. You set up a very simple test: you ask them “how many Terry Pratchett books have you read?” Then you set a minimum threshold.

If you set the threshold very low, say one or two, you’ll accurately identify all the fans, but you will also let in a lot of non-fans who just happen to have read Good Omens. Whereas if you set it very high, say 15, you’ll accurately weed out all the non-fans, but you might miss out on loads of real fans who are still working their way through the Discworld series for the first time. This is a zero-sum game: setting your threshold higher means more false negatives; setting it lower means more false positives. It’s unavoidable.

The same goes on with antibody tests. If you want to be more sensitive (get fewer false negatives), you can lower your threshold, but that means you’ll have more false positives; if you want to be more specific (fewer false positives), you raise your threshold, but that means you’ll have more false negatives. Unless you develop a new and better test, there is no third option, The tests have usually gone for specificity, rather than sensitivity.

That’s probably wise, but it presents a problem in that even very low levels of antibodies may offer protection. “In some monkey studies where they re-challenged,” says Javid — meaning giving the virus to monkeys who’d already had it — “very very low levels of antibodies were protective.” A lot of the tests use cut-offs that are higher, he says, “than what animal studies say are protective”. 

All that said, it probably is the case that people who’ve had milder cases will have antibody responses that wane quite quickly, in months rather than years, according to both Javid and Beale.

It’s important to say that this doesn’t mean that vaccines won’t work. For one thing, says Javid, vaccine immune responses are “both qualitatively and quantitatively different” from immune responses to natural infection, when it comes to both antibodies and T-cells. That’s not a good thing or a bad thing, necessarily; it could be either, and “there’s no way to tell a priori”. But it does mean that it’s perfectly possible that natural infection could cause this tailed-off antibody response, while a vaccine has a more long-lasting one; or it could be the other way around. Or they could be largely the same. We’ll just have to wait and see, although the early noises from Oxford and elsewhere seem largely optimistic.

What it probably does mean, according to Beale, is that the most likely outcome is that Covid-19 becomes “the fifth seasonal coronavirus”. Assuming that a mild case of the disease only sparks a relatively short-term immunity, but that reinfection with the virus is far less dangerous because of the T-cell response (or whatever else is going on), then once everyone’s immune system is prepared for it, as with the common cold coronaviruses, we could see it going around as an inconvenient but not devastating seasonal illness. “If you’re vaccinated or infected, then it’ll be much less severe,” he predicts. “I’ll be genuinely surprised if that’s not where we end up.”

(He notes, however, that he has been genuinely surprised once already by Covid-19, specifically by the effectiveness of the drug dexamethasone in treating it. It’s still a novel disease and we shouldn’t get complacent that we know everything about it.)

Javid agrees. “This was predictable,” he says. “We kind of knew this was going to be the case months ago, it’s just that now we’ve had long enough to check.”

Even if we don’t ever eradicate the disease, we will probably end up in a place where we can live with it. In the meantime, though, it’s still absolutely crucial that we control the disease. Beale in particular says that “policy-wise, it’d be completely insane to let it get out of control now,” because “by this time next year” it’s likely that we will have an effective and widely available vaccine. “Better to lock down even at considerable economic cost and wait for that,” he says, although he acknowledges the calculus changes if the vaccine will be much longer coming. 

Javid adds that “As with everything Covid, it’s going to come down to how well we protect our vulnerable population,” which in the UK at least isn’t something we’ve conspicuously excelled at.

So there’s no need to panic; it seems to be unfolding as expected. I don’t want to be too harsh on anyone for the perhaps over-alarmist reporting; science writing in a fast-moving pandemic is bloody hard (I’ve discovered). But, so far, at least, I don’t think we need to start worrying that vaccines won’t work or that we’ll all be getting a life-threatening course of Covid-19 every calendar year. The hope that we’ll get out of this in a reasonable timescale, and life will return to something relatively normal before we’re all too old to enjoy it, is still very much there.

 


Tom Chivers is a science writer. His second book, How to Read Numbers, is out now.

TomChivers

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chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago

Four important facts about vaccines:

1. No vaccine has ever been successfully created for a coronavirus.
2. HIV has received billions in vaccine research for decades, and still has no vaccine.
3. The world record for the fastest ever creation of a vaccine is four years, for mumps.
4. Previous rushed vaccination programmes, such as for the recent swine flu scare, have led to horrendous side effects and huge compensation claims.

Vaccines are in general a boon to society, but rabid pro-vaxxer sentiment (“Vaccines are great! We must have them immediately! Anyone who criticises vaccines is crazy and probably believes in the Illuminati!”) is as foolish and as dangerous as rabid anti-vaxxer sentiment (“Vaccines are terrible! We must avoid them! Anyone who supports vaccines is probably funded by the Illuminati!”).

All medical products must go through rigorous long-term testing before roll-out. This is not “bureaucracy” or “a conspiracy theory”. It is essential healthcare practice. We should neither expect nor want for vaccines to be released for novel viruses within a short enough time-span for a lock-down to be economically viable.

No country has ever improved the health of its population by making itself poorer.

Helene Banoun
Helene Banoun
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

i’m OK!

https://www.aimsib.org/en/2

Covid-19 vaccine and herd immunity, that’s no… and still no…

Although all current thinking is greedily tending towards a close deconfinement, let’s take a step forward here, it is indeed the dual subject of the life-saving vaccine and providential group immunity that will occupy all minds tomorrow. Is it reasonable to hope that the COVID-19 conundrum can be solved so easily, or what is the public health risk if our “experts” lead us into situations even more damaging than the one we are experiencing today? It is Dr. Emma Kahn, our formidable virologist, who is helping us update our knowledge here. Enjoy your reading.

Executive Summary

Herd immunity is a concept based solely on mathematical models derived from observations of measles in the pre-vaccine era.ӬThese models and the resulting preventive strategies have failed to eradicate this disease and will further fail to control Covid-19 due to an emerging, and therefore poorly understood, virus whose characteristics in epidemiological terms seem far removed from that of measles (based on what is known about the 2003 SARS-CoV) and from what has been learned from SARS-CoV-2.ӬAttempts to develop a vaccine against 2003 SARS (due to a close relative of SARS-CoV-2) have all failed since then, in particular because of the occurrence of serious immunopathological phenomena, including the formidable facilitation of infection induced by certain types of antibodies. For this reason, no vaccine should be marketed against Covid-19 unless all precautions have been taken.ӬThe few trials currently underway are being conducted by start-ups and not by the major pharmaceutical industry, which as usual is waiting to acquire any future discoveries.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

Isn’t the annual flu a Coronavirus and aren’t all,over a certain age or with other I’ll healths encouraged to have one , and doesn’t the vaccine work quite well?

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago

No, seasonal flu as the name suggests is an Influenza virus (I think there are A & B forms). It’s definitely not a coronavirus.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

You might rally want to check that! Coronaviruses are a large family of viruses and cause e.g the common cold, seasonal flu ( also known as influenza) SARS, MERS and others. Influenza is the name of the disease – not the virus, just as Covid is the name of the current disease

Barry Crombie
Barry Crombie
3 years ago

Coronaviruses and influenza viruses are different families that happen to produce similar symptoms – rhinoviruses are also different again but produce similar symptoms. Influenza is the name of the virus and the disease (although there are a number of different influenza types). This is very basic information and is readily available – where did you get the indication they are the same virus family?

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  Barry Crombie

You are quite right. My mistake. Flu etc are Ortho viruses ( I think that the common name)

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

You might want to check that! Coronaviruses are a large ‘family ‘ of viruses causing various illnesses : common cold, seasonal flu ( influenza) SARS, MERS and others including COVID. Influenza is the name of the disease not the virus!

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago

I’m not an expert on viruses but I was 99% sure I was right. It seems I am.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago

No, the annual flu is an influenza virus. Some of the common cold viruses are coronaviruses, but as you will know, there is no vaccine for the common cold.

Bin Ra
Bin Ra
3 years ago

Perhaps the body needs the symptoms as a regenerative detoxification and the ‘sickness’ is the cure.

Virology is where the Money is and toxicology is pushed to the sidelines or airbrushed away and covered over by dramatic diversion.

I have seen studies that acknowledge the increase in other respiratory disease including coronavirus, as a result of flu vaccination. There are also some indications of antibody cross reactions in ‘covid cases’ that escalate to life threatening conditions, in those who had flu inoculations – PERHAPS as a result of canine coronaviral antibodies in the serum. As far as I am aware the industry uses the term ‘isolated and purified’ as a ritual observance rather than rigorous science.

I also say a report at one time that some districts in Wuhan and N Italy had a double round of flu vaccinations in 2019 season.

Perhaps the Collective Mind and Body of Humankind generates crises from denied and unresolved conflicts of influences that necessitate a ‘Reset’ which for the first time is to be orchestrated by private human agenda – so as to build a new world order on controls and denials so as to eradicate fear and consciousness along with it.

The idea that the virus is THE cause of disease is unquestionably structured as the frame from which we then think or react. That any adopted, funded and invested idea should become too big to fail reveals the measure of our fear of testing for truth when the results don’t fit or support our current active agenda.

The tenant farmers killed the messengers of the Master in fear of dispossession. But as in the prodigal, the result of reintegration is peace, wholeness and restored function or health. regardless the complexity of biology, the frame of its investigative focus as pathological aberrations to be eradicated or cancelled, remains clearly in the mind of human thinking.

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

I am with you on this. I’m a pro-MMR chap who wouldn’t dream of having the rushed vaccine for my family, on a risk-benefit ratio.

However I would disagree on a point of interpretation, if not in fact:

1. No vaccine has ever been successfully created for a coronavirus.

This coronavirus, unusually, has mutation-correction built in. When God, gods, evolution, or accident-prone laboratory created this virus, it was almost designed to be vaccinatable. Or at least easier to study…

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Adrian

How interesting! As you say, replication in many viruses is error-prone & that gain or loss of function and/or change in structure is a feature of how they evade immune responses in their hosts. Clever blighters 🙂

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

https://www.asbmb.org/asbmb

I should have said “Coronaviruses, unusually for RNA viruses, can proofread”

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago
Reply to  Adrian

So we hope. So we theorise. The fact remains that no coronavirus vaccine has ever been successfully created. Hopefully this will be the first. But the first it will be: No vaccine has ever been successfully created for a coronavirus.

Paul Boizot
Paul Boizot
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

Wow! So the Illuminati are funding both sides! 🙂

Jonathan Marshall
Jonathan Marshall
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Boizot

The cunning bastards!

Bin Ra
Bin Ra
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Boizot

Taking a considered point from a moment of levity…

If the generation of conflict in the mind is the primary means to unsettle, divide and frame the mind in a solution that serves a third party agenda, then you have finally woken up to the nature of the phished mind of conflict – that reacts against a feared outcome as if the projected, insinuated or modelled fear will otherwise inevitably occur. ‘ACT NOW OR ELSE!’ is a common frame for the setting of baited hook – as a leveraging of existing fears to break out the herd from its innate immunity.

As we can readily observe this in our own mind, it should be no surprise that we do it to each other as part of leveraging what we want by masking in narratives that reinforce polarised and polarising conflict – and thus block resolutions that are feared or deemed unprofitable – or simply as giving ammunition to enemies or rivals.

The term Illuminati can mean anything and nothing according to context. But if the means to engineer society is harnessed to the shared intent to make a world in our own image, then we can put our best minds to work on anticipated problems or obstacles to our solutions and one such is to work to fund, subvert or compromise any movement of opposition.

‘We have all your bases’ could be a shorthand checkmate for a global coup – via subversion and capture of all key institutions of leverage.
While a hollow parody of life can indeed be made to dance a masque macabre, it cannot actually functionally replace what life is and does.

The idea of micro managing life via even an A.I guided system of regulatory controls is at best, an unfeeling robot. The choice to align in robotic conditionings as a normalised lockstep of reality-adjustment is served by the provision of a narrative identity. Re-education then becomes the alignment to the narrative dictates – that cannot be questioned – even if they shift and change to their opposites as a matter of course. For how else can obedience be effected in the rank and file system of a dataset?

Bin Ra
Bin Ra
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

I am not at all at odds with the overall message you share.

If a vaccine can be demonstrated safe and effective, by all means don’t deny anyone the freedom to choose to pay others to provide them. But official ‘top-down’ assertions that are intentionally crafted to frame (deny) any dialogue, posture and mask as ‘The Science’ that MUST be followed or else! Mind-capture leverages guilt and fear to take its power from the heart’s allegiance. Plausible ‘protections’ can be weighted as salvation when set against terrible and dreadful fear.

1 – Well one was at least one such was created and was very ‘successful’ in generating antibodies – which is what ‘effective’ means in vaccination terminology. But when the ‘immunised’ lab otters were then exposed to the virus in the wild, they all died. Antibodies can – as I understand it – cross react in unexpected ways. I think the other known trial was on some people in the Philippines and resulted in ongoing criminal proceedings.

2. The ‘discovery’ of HIV initiated an era where suddenly the presence of (sometimes associated) antibodies signified infection instead of immunity. HIV is now recognised not to be ‘The Cause’ of A.I.D.S which is now recognised not be be a highly (or even) infectious condition. But don’t let truth get in the way of a good story – though for so many it was an is a terrible nightmare. Fear can substitute for truth.

3. You are not counting the first pioneers then. How long did it take to gather cow pus and insert into an open wound? (Vacca = cow).

4. The belief that vaccines are a boon or safe or effective protection against disease is more of a masking cover story to save the fearful from their fears, (including polluters), and is protected as sacrosanct – or beyond scientific evaluation.

Vaccines are NOT categorised as medical products – but as b’iologicals’ and there is no public record or transparency of rigorous long term testing for biologicals. Assumption can replace fact.

I thought corona viral respiratory infection already was the common cold – along with rhino-viral infections. How many who are at end of life die from complications rising from catching any kind of cold (or flu)? If that sum was extended to include all who died WITH cold viruses – or as suspected to have any of the symptoms of a cold – what sort of statistics would we get? But also look at all the ongoing exposures and interventions that undermine or block immune function, along with disproportionate and inhumane fear-drive ‘treatments’ that are applied instead of officially suppressed protocols that are known to be effective. Inverse correlation with vitamin D is so overwhelming a factor as to reinstate something once known and accepted.

Regardless of whether a flu vaccination actually diminishes or mitigates a flu infection, does it not increase other respiratory disease including coronaviral disease? All interventions need to be evaluated in terms of overall health and particularly death by all causes.

The intent to generate or discover ‘medical’ narrative definitions and test parameters as a means to trump all other institutional functions has nothing to do with the health or the wealth of nations or peoples, but works a control agenda set over fear of chaos – or rather, set in fear of pain of loss. Howbeit we are deceived must therefore provide an education.

An insane distribution of wealth and influence operates an insane society.
Who but an elephant in the room would expect otherwise?

Vem Dalen
Vem Dalen
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

Nobody has ever walked on Mars. That doesn’t mean it can’t happen if enough money and effort is committed.

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago
Reply to  Vem Dalen

I agree. However, we are not going to walk on Mars six months after someone first decided it’d be a good idea. The lockdown is premised on the belief that a vaccine is just around the corner. If a vaccine is not around the corner, and the Mars analogy actually supports that, then the lockdown is a bad idea that will cause more harm than good.

William Johnston
William Johnston
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

And is a walk on Mars necessarily worth it?

John Boyd
John Boyd
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

@unherdlimited-1a7a47558f706af7f873650f7a466cfc:disqus Spot on. I would only add one important and very salient fact about the immune system.

(From Childrens Health Defense article – Why Has Everyone Seemingly Forgotten How the Immune System Works?) We are exposed to millions of microorganisms every day and will be for the rest of our lives. It is estimated that there are approximately 200 species of respiratory viruses; influenza viruses, rhinoviruses, coronaviruses, adenoviruses, parainfluenza viruses, respiratory syncytial virus and more. We have always lived and interacted with these viruses and thousands more. Many of these categories of viruses can cause severe illness and even death in certain people. In other people those infections are very mild and self-limiting. In fact, it’s exposure to these viruses, bacteria, and fungi that matures and strengthens our immune systems. So, the notion that we should avoid all germs is preposterous and actually damaging to our health.

John Findlay
John Findlay
3 years ago

Given how low the levels of positive tests and deaths are now, I bitterly resent being obliged to wear a mask in shops where I previously didn’t have to. I just don’t understand the reasoning being the policy.
Then I remember H.L. Mencken:
“Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of
practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to
be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them
imaginary.”

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  John Findlay

Yes, where has this mask thing sprung from all of a sudden?

In Australia, the Premier of Victoria, Daniel Andrews, is making Melbourne residents wear masks and threatening this could go on for months, and that the edict could spread to other Australian states.

Who is coordinating this recent push for muzzling and enfeebling of the population, this requirement for normal life to be hindered by masks for who knows how long?

Is this part of the behavioural training to make people compliant to their fast-tracked vaccine products?

Michael Hoey
Michael Hoey
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Yes this mask thing is crazy. Given the fear that has been ramped up there will be voices saying that we can’t stop wearing them till infections have reduced to zero because of the alleged risk of a second spike. This is carrying risk aversion to an absurd extreme. I intend to resist masks in shops. There are numerous mask exemption cards you can print free online. They don’t need to be certified: all you need to do is say you have a reasonable excuse. There is even a card saying just that. And stores have said they won’t police so let’s see. The more refuseniks there are the better.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Hoey

Re compulsory masking/muzzling, what is the evidence for this, what evidence is the UK government using to support its edicts?

For example from the GOV.UK ‘working safely during coronavirus…’ webpage, consider 6.1 Face coverings: https://www.gov.uk/guidance

“There are some circumstances when wearing a face covering may be marginally beneficial as a precautionary measure. The evidence suggests that wearing a face covering does not protect you, but it may protect others if you are infected but have not developed symptoms…”

…It is important to know that the evidence of the benefit of using a face covering to protect others is weak and the effect is likely to be small, therefore face coverings are not a replacement for the other ways of managing risk, including minimising time spent in contact, using fixed teams and partnering for close-up work, and increasing hand and surface washing. These other measures remain the best ways of managing risk in the workplace and government would therefore not expect to see employers relying on face coverings as risk management for the purpose of their health and safety assessments…”

(My emphasis.)

Can’t see any references on that webpage, no sources provided to check.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Hoey

Re compulsory masking/muzzling, what is the evidence for this, what evidence is the UK government using to support its edicts?

For example from the GOV.UK ‘working safely during coronavirus…’ webpage, consider 6.1 Face coverings: (I can’t post the link as comments then disappear into ‘pending’…)

“There are some circumstances when wearing a face covering may be marginally beneficial as a precautionary measure. The evidence suggests that wearing a face covering does not protect you, but it may protect others if you are infected but have not developed symptoms…“

“…It is important to know that the evidence of the benefit of using a face covering to protect others is weak and the effect is likely to be small, therefore face coverings are not a replacement for the other ways of managing risk, including minimising time spent in contact, using fixed teams and partnering for close-up work, and increasing hand and surface washing. These other measures remain the best ways of managing risk in the workplace and government would therefore not expect to see employers relying on face coverings as risk management for the purpose of their health and safety assessments…”

(My emphasis.)

Can’t see any references on that webpage, no sources provided to check.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Hoey

I live in Washington State in the USA. Overall mortality is 1 percent above average according to the CDC. This is insanity on a scale not imagined before. North Dakota is actually below average deaths for the year and they have stayed open and do not wear masks. New York and New Jersey are the highest and Fauci is on TV telling them how great they have done. You can’t make this up. Most of the rural counties here have zero deaths from Covid. The counties around King are the only counties effected. If there is a virus it only effects population centers of crowded people.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Hoey

Michael, re the previous example I provided of a GOV.UK website stating “…It is important to know that the evidence of the benefit of using a face covering to protect others is weak and the effect is likely to be small…”

I can’t find that statement now, looks like it’s been updated, apparently on 23 July 2020 . Instead there is this statement:“There is growing evidence that wearing a face covering in an enclosed space helps protect individuals and those around them from COVID-19.”

I can’t see any evidence/references to support this statement on the webpage.

See the GOV.UK ‘working safely during coronavirus…’ webpage, 6.1 Face coverings: (I can’t post the link as comments then disappear into ‘pending’…)

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Presumably WHO has altered its guidance?
If not, we’re left with two options. One, some invisible transnational coordinating group or two, a kind of floppy follow my neighbour, where it becomes increasingly difficult to resist doing as others are doing.
I’m guessing it’s 2.

Paul Boizot
Paul Boizot
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Actually Michael, I favour option 3; some governments, including the UK, were not on the ball early on and failed to push the benefits of mask-wearing when they first should have done. Also mixed messages were given out about effectiveness, including by some of the science bods.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

They openly admit it and they are not invisible. https://www.weforum.org/age

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

Thanks for the link Dennis, absolutely blatant about the ‘reset’.

Have you watched the Event 201 videos? Was that about ‘pandemic preparedness’? Seemed to me more about developing massive business opportunities, lots of bees around that honeypot…and here we are…

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Yep. This is something else. I thought 9/11 was bad. This is going to be a whole different level of corruption, impoverishment, and death.

Bin Ra
Bin Ra
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Yes – the mask operates a placeholder for a Certificate Of Vaccination ID.
Humans are redefined as a ‘risk of infection’ that must be systemically ‘managed under a 4th Reich Global Bio-Security state – along with carbon guilt, and social debiting non compliance.

I don’t think the actual vaccine as such is actually important. It could be a placebo and official stats and tests can demonstrate its efficacy. Even if for some that would operate as nocebo…

The prize is the regulatory capture of mandatory override over any remaining rights and freedoms of body and mind, that the premise and profit of ‘immunisation technology (sic) operates as a lure of short term gain for the delivery unto long term pain.

Once this is in place and protected from challenge or change, a new depth of meaning to ‘lockdown will be lived out – but how much any quality of life can be lived and shared as a lab rat is questionable.

The other side of this is the opportunity to see a blind control agenda for what it is – and therefore withdraw allegiance and at least clear out our own ‘Temple’.

Artificial intelligence has no heart or wholeness in all it parts.
But can operate a masking in virtue by which to kneel or choke others so as to save its own bubble. And this before technologism had been developed as a means of possession and control by which to capture a mass mindshare.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago

Here’s a radical question – why is there a race for a vaccine?

It appears most people under sixty aren’t too adversely affected by this virus, and many over sixty remain alive and kicking. So why is so much being invested in vaccine research, which might be better spent now on care and treatments for the sick and targeted preventive measures?

Who is expected to have the experimental vaccine products that are currently being fast-tracked and why?

Jeffrey Shaw
Jeffrey Shaw
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

In the United States, doctors and “public health experts” have been allowed to participate in the patenting (i.e., to personal financial gain) of drugs vaccines, medical devices and a variety of other treatments, since the laws were changed under Bill Clinton in the 1990s. Worse yet – the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) are the only government institutions that are allowed to take private contributions. Strangely the leading contributor to both institutions is the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation – to the tune of several hundreds of millions of dollars. Bill’s parents were huge supporters of the “eugenics” movement of the immediate pre and post WWII, era. Bill himself remains devoted to global population reduction. Follow the money and keep connecting the dots.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeffrey Shaw

Yes Jeffrey, so many roads lead to the world dominating Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, who made this pair King and Queen of the world? See my comments about BMGF on the UnHerd article Watch out: anti-maskers are in your midst.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

You seem to be saying in your original comment that we don’t need a vaccine just for the near 25% of the UK population over 60 nor the other large number of people under 60 with other ill health conditions and diseases ( a sizeable number of people). The figures would be similar or higher in other western , developed countries plus the billion or more of other people around the world. Are you sure about that ? I expect that it will be China that first develops a successful vaccine

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago

So who do you think should have any resulting vaccine products David? Should children have them for example? Should they be compulsory? How often do you think people will be expected to be vaccinated with these vaccine products?

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

I would want a safe & effective vaccine to be offered to the over-60s & to those considered both much more vulnerable than the average (so long as in those people, vaccination itself doesn’t hold elevated risks).
No one else. It’s not appropriate & unethical to push it more widely. I’m pro-vaccine yet I’d push back strongly on any proposal to vaccinate everyone to mimic herd immunity. This would breach several international medical declarations.

Kerry Evans
Kerry Evans
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Absolutely agree! The vast majority of us don’t need to be given a vaccine, especially one that has barely been tested.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Kerry Evans

And many older people would reject it anyway.

Johanna Barry
Johanna Barry
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

If it is a case of herd immunity, I would say the cheapest way of getting it is to protect the old and infirm, and let the rest of us get on with mask-free, bubble free old normal living. The death rates and evidence don’t justify anything else in my opinion and in the long term, that’s what we will have to do anyway.

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

I get an annual (Coronavirus) flu vaccine ( and very grateful I am) . Whether or not they will be compulsory will depend on which country you are talking about. I can imagine China and some Asian countries making them compulsory. I know little or nothing about the USA but I wouldn’t be surprised if health insurance costs rose massively for those who don’t get a vaccine and also have other other conditions . Similarly, I wouldn’t be surprised if travel insurance premiums rose for those people who aren’t vaccinated but want to visit a country with a high infection rate. As for the UK – I expect that just like the flu vaccine it will be offered to all over a certain age or with other life limiting/ threatening health conditions plus health care and medical staff etc. As for how often? Well that depends on how effective the vaccine is . Some vaccines last for pretty much your whole life others have to be repeated as and when the virus alters, e.g annual flu

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago

What do you think about these statements David?

“Immunising children with Covid-19 vaccine, even though they are at low risk the disease, could be an “indirect” way to protect older people for whom the vaccine may not be as effective, scientists have said.”
“Speaking at the Lords Science and Technology Committee, Prof Peter Openshaw, from Imperial College London, said: “Sometimes it is possible to protect a vulnerable group by targeting another group and this, for example, is being done with influenza.
“In the past few years, the UK has been at the forefront of rolling out the live attenuated vaccine for children.”
“He added that vaccinating health and care workers, who are most likely to have contact with older people, would also help in protecting them from Covid-19.”

See the article: Immunising children with Covid-19 vaccine ‘could help in protecting the elderly’. Evening Express 23/06/2020

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Well, it sort of makes sense but it’s a statement full of ‘ifs’. We don’t yet have an effective vaccine and no one knows if any eventual vaccine would be less effective for older people. I haven’t a clue what Openshaw means by how it being done with influenza. It’s only those over 65 who get the free vaccine ( it’s been offered for years now to those over that age and those with other health conditions for whom flu could be a serious or fatal disease) – not children! Perhaps there is some sort of trial going on but it’s not one that has made the news and you would ,have to vaccinate all children for any trial to work.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago

So just to clarify David, you think this is ethical?

“Immunising children with Covid-19 vaccine, even though they are at low risk the disease, could be an “indirect” way to protect older people for whom the vaccine may not be as effective, scientists have said.”

David Bottomley
David Bottomley
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

We don’t have compulsory vaccination! Would I get my children vaccinated if I thought it would protect grandparents ( and me!) etc? Yes ,just as I would give them MMR etc and Tetanus.

Would it be ethical to vaccinate all children if it was definitively going to protect and save the lives of older and vulnerable people – YES. Would it be ethical to not vaccinate children knowing that older and vulnerable people would die as a result – NO .

This is all a bit academic though.

Barry Crombie
Barry Crombie
3 years ago

and if the vaccine had been fast-tracked through regulatory testing?

Would you understand people not wanting to take that risk with their children?

What this has taught us that people’s perception of risk is not the same and they may find this is a step too far.

Fear of virus may quickly change over to fear of treatment/prevention, especially if the initial predictions don’t come to pass

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Barry Crombie

I’d hate to see future vaccination rates for MMR drop because of a rushed and botched vaccine. It would be a huge mistake if that happened. And based on the assumption that only 5-10% of the country has been exposed to Covid, and the mortality rates that implies

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Adrian

Since never in nature is a child infected with three diseases at the one time, as MMR, informs the body, just what level of confusion do you think this offers to an immature immune function?

The concept of multiple diseases in one vaccine is verging on the criminal. The concept that you can inject a child’s body with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or more vaccines at the one time, in essence, telling an immature immune system – guess what, you have six diseases you need to fight- is irresponsible in the extreme. It is also untested.

Vaccines are designed to confuse anyway. The Adjuvant, the toxic material, triggers an immune response and, in the confusion, it is hoped, the body will whack on a bit of a reaction to the harmless disease or diseases, plural.

Since a Cancer cell is a confused cell, just what benefit can a confused immune system bring?

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago

I disagree profoundly. Of course it’s good to be able to protect their elders, but it’s wholly unethical to even contemplate vaccinating non-vulnerable human beings, who gain no medical benefit yet bear the same, hopefully low risk of serious adverse events.
I’m appalled that we as members of society are even having this discussion.

Susie E
Susie E
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Totally agree, especially when the long term side effects of the vaccine are not known. My children will not be having a covid vaccine. If other people choose to get themselves or their children vaccinated, that’s fine by me.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

I would never use my children or grandchildren as labrats to possibly protect me or their grandparents.

Susie E
Susie E
3 years ago

My 2 year old son was given a flu vaccine last autumn in the form of a nasal spray. I probably won’t let him have it this year since we seemed to be ill for the whole winter and spring and I want to see if it makes a difference him not having it.

simon.dowdy
simon.dowdy
3 years ago
Reply to  Susie E

All primary aged children are offered the Flu vaccine each year. Parents can opt out, and when we did it was certainly frowned upon. Tut tut

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Susie E

Be aware that some Flu vaccines still contain Thiomersal, Mercury, a dangerous neurotoxin. The other neurotoxin is Aluminium, linked to both Autism and Alzheimer’s. Just read the accompanying literature and get your doctor to read it before injecting anything into your child.

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Athena Jones

I gave my kid MMR and he has autism.
But I knew he was going to get autism anyway, because I have it, my father has it and his father had it before him. And that’s just my side of the family.

My father blamed my autism on measles vaccination and aluminium pans (anti-vaxx theories are older than the anti-vaxx movement). So he made sure my younger brother was exposed to neither. 30 years later my younger brother is still severely autistic.

Henry Lord Cavendish, famous for weighing the world in a shed already had autism, before his contemporary Edward Jenner deliberately gave a child Cowpox. It wouldn’t surprise me if Edward Jenner was autistic.

Why do parents of autistic children fixate on theories of why their child became autistic? Oh yeah, it’s because they themselves are … autistic.

David Barnett
David Barnett
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Healthcare professionals under 60 could also be vaccinated (as they are for ‘flu) because of their regular contacts with the vulnerable.

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

I disagree strongly with Openshaw. I’m appalled at his remark which, if it’s an accurate quotation, is factually wrong.
It is true that flu can be transmitted to older relatives by school children. It’s also true that there are experiments testing the efficacy of vaccinating kids vs ‘flu on illness in their elders.
But that isn’t the whole reason why kids are sometimes offered flu vaccine & certainly isn’t the sole reason given on the consent form. The reason this experiment is permitted is that children do get infected by flu and a few score die each winter across Europe. The children are themselves beneficiaries of the vaccine.
In the case of SARS-CoV-2, children are almost completely spared illness.

david bewick
david bewick
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Agree. In the European wide study into children and covid19 it was found that the first person to have the virus in the household was an adult. It goes from adult to child not the other way around.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Is it not odd that Flu barely rated a mention before the max-vax age. I have never had Flu. Neither did my kids. Now it is everywhere. More vaccinations and more Flu. That applies to quite a few diseases actually.

Bin Ra
Bin Ra
3 years ago
Reply to  Athena Jones

Flu stats are PR. The vast majority of those who are assigned to have died of flu are not virologically tested. Complications as a result of respiratory infection – often resulting in pneumonia is a broad category that as we see includes ‘co-morbidities’ and a weak or undermined and unable to function immune response.

Human lifetimes end in the tens of millions every year as a matter of simple fact, and their circumstances of dying are unique but have generally identifiable conditions.

‘Cause of death’ is an extremely arbitrary and subjective judgement. And even if a cause was found, it would itself have contributory factors. The power to define and direct a narrative is the ‘official say’. To the degree this embodies a consensual willingness is the degreed of freedom to explore, discover and expand the cultural richness of human consciousness.
But a dictate of ‘settled science’ posing as scientific consensus (sic) is simply a masking denial – but holding the means of control as the carrot and the stick of ‘incentivisation’.
We all have invested identity in the ‘establishment’ or status quo.

But back to you point – what happened to flu deaths in the year of covid-19?
CV19 has the powers of a ‘Jehovah’ – not surprisingly.
And the CHS has replaced the NHS even while the hapless clapped.
Captive revenue streams are usually protected – but in shifting to a new bio-tech system, the pharma-suckled are to a great extent abandoned from above.

The idea of boosting ‘immunity’ is the vector of its undermining. This is an old folly in new clothes.
The more controls are added, the more chaos in the system – is a self-reinforcing loop. Life doesn’t work as a mechanism of fear and control – excepting a very specific physical reflex for the temporary overriding of the consciousness for the protection of the body.
The use of fear as leverage of manipulative control is a split mind of victim and victimiser that can shift and change in unexpected ways.
Fear, distrust and hatred of the body, operates as a disembodied ‘mind’ that seeks to escape its limitations, take over its functions, and yet assert it as a separator and distancing device against the minds (judged sin or threat) of others. There are inherent and fundamental contradictions in using the mind and by extension the body for conflicting purposes that are self-defeating fro the outset, but may only become apparently so when the enemy is at the gate – or rising up from trojan deceits within.

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago

I get an annual (Coronavirus) flu vaccine

Please David, cease this consistent but false claim of yours that flu is a coronavirus. There has never been a vaccine successfully created for any coronavirus.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

With a grandchild injured by vaccines I commenced a concentrated study of vaccine theory and practice. It was not long before I concluded that no-one who was fully informed and in their right mind would ever let a needle near them.

Such policy has done me no harm, even with decades spent living in India and Africa. Not only are vaccines unnecessary they remain poorly tested.

We are seeing younger generations who were vaxxed to the max now rejecting vaccines for their babies. Many of these heavily vaxxed kids have chronic disease of one kind or another. When I had children in the early Seventies there were 2-3 vaccinations at older ages, now a child will receive FIFTY in the first five years of life beginning within hours of birth if not in utero.

I mean, seriously, how can anyone of sound mind think that is necessary or a good idea? Those of us who grew up before the vaccination age had possibly one, Smallpox, unnecessary, but that was it. Now these poor kids are jabbed senseless throughout childhood.

On the plus side, Covid seems to be making people think twice about trusting doctors, scientists, Governments and vaccines. A gift in every curse.

William Johnston
William Johnston
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

You ask: ” …who made this pair [Bill and Melinda Gates] King and Queen of the world?”

I suppose the answer is; all of us who bought Windows for our computers.

I also suspect that Gates – Mr. and Mrs. – are actually quite sincere. I just think their premise is fundamentally flawed.

Bin Ra
Bin Ra
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

The ‘solution’ to Deep Fear works the basis for a gold rush (which is itself a feeding frenzy on those who rush to get a piece of the action), and and a general bandwagon effect (following The Money – but lets call it The Science!) But more insidiously, an engineered solution to a false-flagged problem serves the basis for setting up a framework for a captured Economy under a denied and masked over fear.

The addiction to the Big Lie is a terrible affliction that cannot be contained or limited but destroys All Family from within.
Exclusions and denials are energetically ACTIVE regardless being filtered, censored or masked out to a strategic of limitation as ‘control’.

Fraser Bailey
Fraser Bailey
3 years ago

Apparently there were 0.5% fewer deaths than normal in the UK last week. And of those that died, only 3% were Covid deaths. (And we all know that half of those probably weren’t really Covid. This is why so many of us call it the Scamdemic.

Mark Corby
Mark Corby
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Yes indeed, this is rapidly turning into the greatest confidence trick since the Resurrection. And look where that got us!

Paul Wright
Paul Wright
3 years ago
Reply to  Fraser Bailey

Tom Chivers (this article’s author) has tweeted

the CEBM post (https://cebm.net/covid-19/w… is important, it may partly explain why England deaths are stubbornly high, & I hope PHE take it into account for future numbers, but “some people were diagnosed with Covid, recovered, then got hit by a bus” doesn’t explain away many deaths

(Twitter thread here).

The reasoning is that the number of deaths with a positive test was too high at the peak to be people recovering and then dying of other causes. Plus you can see it in excess deaths (any cause deaths above the average for the time of year) which peaked within 3 to 4 weeks after lockdown (graph here), so too soon for it to be mainly people not getting screened for cancer and whatnot.

> And we all know that half of those probably weren’t really Covid

We do? Source?

> This is why so many of us call it the Scamdemic.

Generally those are the people who think it was caused by chemtrails, 5G vaccine chips and the Bavarian Illuminati, though.

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

Not true. There are a great many scientists, physicians, and statisticians who have examined the situation carefully and concluded that this is completely overblown, a case of mass hysteria.

Paul Wright
Paul Wright
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

Top tip: the voices in your head and that bloke you followed on YouTube until the Bill Gates had him cancelled don’t count as experts here.

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

Please don’t assume ill-intent or idiocy. I am a statistician who has worked as a health economist, and there are many others like me among the lockdown-sceptics. I have drawn my conclusions based on my experience and analysis, and you have drawn your conclusions based on your experience and analysis. Civilised folk may disagree sincerely with good intentions. There is no need for you to resort to insults or sneers.

UnHerd has so far been a mostly healthy forum for discussion. Let’s not allow it to degenerate into a hellhole like Twitter where ad hominem attacks are the first and last and only resort.

Paul Wright
Paul Wright
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

My apologies, I have deleted the comment as I was fooled by your reference to “mass hysteria” into thinking you were one of Them.

However, since I’m on a Yes Prime Minister kick in these comments, Jim Hacker’s response to “great many scientists” would be: “name 10”.

Martin Davis
Martin Davis
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

Well, do indulge us, and mention a few…

fretwelld
fretwelld
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

Here’s an earlier article from the Spectator several months ago that covers the issues with death coding: https://www.spectator.co.uk

Personally I know of of two people in my extended social circle who were coded as being COVID deaths in nursing homes, despite not having the typical symptoms (cough, fever, loss of sense of taste) and not having been tested for COVID. I don’t know any others who died.

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

I think the point about (accidentally) overcounting deaths in the later stages of the epidemic means you dont’ know when it’s safe to leave the house.
Especially as overcounting deaths in the way they have been overcounted only gets worse as time goes on, skewing statistics quite badly.
This is especially true when we get to the point below 5 deaths, because 5 to 1000000 deaths is a large number and 1 to 4 deaths is a small number.
It’s similar to the way we respond to plane death statistics. When deaths are recent and larger than a handful you don’t get a very sensible response from the public. (Although in the case of e.g. the 737-Max recent events could be more predictive of future events)

Secondly, Paul, you shouldn’t be rude to people you disagree with.
For every 5G conspiracy theorist calling ‘hoax’ there are thousands of scared ordinary people losing months and months of their economic and social lives because, literally for the younger ones, a 1000000:1 chance of dying this year is too scary to contemplate. Also a fear of knocking a few weeks off a comparitively small number of very old people’s lives justifies suspending routine cancer screening for everyone. That is no conspiracy theory, ordinary people are acting in fear, and with the madness of crowds.

You can’t justify your rudeness on the grounds that this is a life or death situation. It isn’t. It’s a life and life and death and death situation. So a robust, polite, discussion, followed by an accurate assessment of the costs and benefits of various actions or inactions is wholly justified.
You may hear skepticism as “voices” in other people’s ”heads”, but this very rational skepticism is skepticism of the outlier scientists’ worst case scenarios, repeated by alarmist media, and acted on by weak politicians and scared masses.

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Adrian

Nicely weighted post. A very rare thing, hence affirmative feedback is more than warranted.
I almost always remain courteous (why ever not?) but I won’t continue an exchange with someone who is persistently rude & personal. I don’t IRL, either.

Paul Wright
Paul Wright
3 years ago
Reply to  Adrian

> This is especially true when we get to the point below 5 deaths, because 5 to 1000000 deaths is a large number and 1 to 4 deaths is a small number.

Agreed (and this point was made on the Twitter thread).

> Secondly, Paul, you shouldn’t be rude to people you disagree with.

I’m not, if you check my comment history, I’m rude to people referring to this as a Scamdemic, mass hysteria, or going on about Bill Gates and taking pandemic prepareness exercises as evidence that this was all planned (by the llluminati, presumably).

There certainly is a utilitarian calculation to be done here, but it isn’t merely about the chance that an infected younger person will die, firstly because there’s a risk of other lasting effects short of death, and secondly because people ought to have a moral concern for people other than themselves. Politicians probably can’t get away with being strict utilitarians either: allowing situation like Italy’s in the early stages of the pandemic to happen here would be what Sir Humphrey Appleby called a “courageous decision”, even if it were the case that allowing the pandemic to overwhelm hospitals saved QALYs in the long run (and how could one be sure enough of that, in any case)?

You’ve asserted that the lockdown (“suspending cancer screening for everyone”) merely saved a few weeks of life for people who would have died anyway. What’s your evidence for that?

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

Paul, re your reference to “going on about Bill Gates”.

What do you mean by that?

Do you disagree that Bill Gates is a major influencer in international vaccination policy?

Paul Wright
Paul Wright
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Yes, and I hear he’s in the Bavarian Illuminati. Or maybe the Knights Templar, I find it hard to keep track. I also heard he shot Kennedy, as I’m sure you’ll agree.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

So you disagree that Bill Gates is a major influencer in international vaccination policy?

Despite the fact that, since the US pulled the plug on funding the WHO, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is now the second largest funder of the WHO, behind the UK, and with the Gates Foundation backed Gavi in third place? (The Gates Foundation’s $750 million pledge set up Gavi in 1999.)

Despite the fact Bill and Melinda Gates’ pledged $10 billion for the ‘Decade of Vaccines’?

Despite the fact the Gates Foundation backed Gavi recently raised $8.8 billion from world leaders and companies to vaccinate children in the world’s poorest countries?

Despite the fact the Gates Foundation is a key Gavi partner in ‘vaccine market shaping’?

You don’t think Bill Gates is a major influencer in international vaccination policy? Really?

Seems to me he’s running the show.

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

>> What’s your evidence for that?
You’re right, frustratingly, I don’t have it. I have a theory about vaccination uptake rates, and overhangs of susceptible people in the UK and other European countries due to a rather successful flu vaccination pragram for the last couple of years. Struggling to get my data together for that, partly because the situation is fast moving. There’s also a good chance that we’ll see more of an overshoot in the ONS figures in the next few weeks, but only comparing a breakdown of deaths over the next few years with the status quo ante will really tell us whetehr the lockdown caused more harm than good.

Yes, it would have been a very courageous decision, as you say, to do utilitarian maths in a very murky situation last March, and no I shouldn’t be surprised that so many politicians made awful decisions; e.g. almost every country going into lockdown at once, on the very vague advice that goverments should be ‘acting’ now from the WHO, despite the fact that they couldn’t sensibly flatten the curve by locking down at too early a stage.

I’m more annoyed that the UK Government hasn’t taken the far less courageous decision of getting the NHS back to normal, now that it is becoming clearer, with hindsight that the worst case scenarios are less plausible than they were 3 or 4 months ago. Boris is a better salesman than most, so eh could do better.

As for your frustration at anti-vaxxers and Bill Gates conspiracy theorists, I believe I understand where you are coming from entirely.

Sorry if I got a bit irate. Your calm reply has lowered my blood pressure somewhat.

Malcolm Ripley
Malcolm Ripley
3 years ago
Reply to  Paul Wright

The UK changed the law to allow Covid to be put down on a death certificate WITHOUT proof that it was. A doctor simply has to state they had symptoms. Even better, the law allowed a.n.other doctor to sign off the death certificate who had never even seen the patient! There are very many people who had Covid when they died BUT they were already dying of multiple other conditions. From Italy 60% of those that died had 3 or more conditions and 90% had at least one other condition.

Next up, by Boris Johnsons own admission at least 20,000 died unecessarily from “somebody” (he was finger pointing at care homes) that had irresponsibly moved infected people from hospital to care homes. We do not need to know who’s to blame in order to determine that almost half the deaths were not Covid but due to “c**k-up” with help from Covid. I hope somebody goes to jail for this.

Next up, 80% of those in ICU at the time of peak deaths were dying because they were not getting the correct treatment. Doctors were killing patients by putting ventilators down their throats. Since that stopped ICU Covid deaths are a tenth of what they were.

I estimate that if your remove medical, political and care home incompetance and correctly account for true cause of death the Covid death rate would be less than the number of people killed by their homes in 2019 (6500).

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Malcolm Ripley

Shockingly, there is a lot in what you say in relation to ICU treatment. As I heard it from doctors I know through my network, they’d been given what they termed the “Wuhan Protocol”, which held that getting patients onto mechanical ventilation early was critical to life saving.
Ventilation is a complex discipline & its very easy to injure or kill a patient given it inappropriately.
Once normal progression was reestablished, patients mostly have their hypoxia corrected with masks & high inspired oxygen.

Mark Corby
Mark Corby
3 years ago
Reply to  Malcolm Ripley

At last, the voice of reason, well done!

However I think you maybe a tad
optimistic that someone “goes to jail for this”.

Far more likely they will be ‘elevated’ to the House of Lords. This is Great Britain in the twenty first century, after all, and not Ancient Rome.

Anthony Lewis
Anthony Lewis
3 years ago

ALSO AS PROF GUPTA AT OXFORD HAS BEEN SAYING RIGHT FROM THE START THERE WILL BE AN UNDERLYING PRE-EXISTING IMMUNITY FROM COVID19 DUE TO EARLIER INFECTION BY RELATED VIRUSES DIRVEN BY THE IMMUNE SYSTEMS B AND T CELLS. SHE HAS POINTED OUT THAT THAT MEANS WE MIGHT GET TO HERD IMMUNITY AT LOWER LEVELS OF INFECTION RATES IN TEH POPULATION THAN SOME OF THE WILDER SILLY MODELS BEING PEDDLED BY FERGUSON ET AL. SO FAR THE PANDEMIC HAS TAOKEN THE COURSE RPEDICTED BY GUPTS NOT IMPERIAL COLLEGE. SORRY FOR THE CAPITALS!

Malcolm Ripley
Malcolm Ripley
3 years ago
Reply to  Anthony Lewis

Ironically that is what the Oxford vaccine uses as a base, a common cold coronavirus! I am astonished nobody has joined the dots on this revelation to the T-cell research…….Who the hell needs a vaccine now!

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Anthony Lewis

Open word or your preferred free office variant. Paste text. [Shift]+[F3] a few times til there are less capitals. Paste back.

Apology accepted.

John Hodgson
John Hodgson
3 years ago
Reply to  Adrian

..fewer capitals, surely?

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago
Reply to  John Hodgson

No. The supposed “less”/”fewer” distinction was invented, against the grain of all tradition, by a minor eighteenth century grammarian based on his personal preference. Even thereafter, it failed to catch on properly, because it is a pointless rule that helps no one. Its primary residual purpose is for pedants to ostentatiously flaunt their conformity to what they think to be “the rules” in order to demonstrate their supposed superiority. I’m sure this isn’t your intent, so hopefully you will find this context useful.

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Anthony Lewis

I agree. However, when I said as much on Twitter, a person who’d decided they’d been left in charge of World Opinion stared I was a dangerous person spreading such views. As far I could make out, their main objective reason for arguing that herd immunity was at this time nowhere near in any location was that there were still large outbreaks.
I don’t think there are now in U.K. which was where I’d based my steadily evolving calculations. We hear occasionally of outbreaks on farms & food factories but isn’t it possible these people have come into the country en masse to do a particular job & have been quite isolated compared with most of the population. Just the last to mix places you’d surely expect?
If not a kind of massed population resistance to infection, how else do we explain the shape of the daily deaths time course? I don’t believe this is solely because some of us have been careful on social distancing. The downward trend is relentless & has not reversed anywhere, not where it comes to deaths. “Cases”, where people are not unwell but are found through massed testing isn’t inconsistent with emerging pop immunity, because the number of positives is tiny compared with the calculated number of daily new infections at its peak (which arguably was close to half a million per day).
We’re seeing multiple papers showing that 30%+ of people carry T-cell reactivity to the virus. Some clear viruses using endogenous IFN, and look how effective exogenous IFN is (see yesterday’s Synairgen clinical trials disclosure). And while rather few have antibodies, I’ve set these kinds of assays up myself. A choice has to be made whether to bias to selectivity OR sensitivity. I understand the first has been chosen, to avoid false positives. But the effect of a high cutoff is false negatives. Many people do actually make low amounts of antibodies, and were missed by prior screens. Bottom line, the numbers already infected, based in estimates of infection fatality ratios is large, perhaps close to 20 million. Another 20 million had sone kind of cross over defence from seeing related coronaviruses. Some others had strong innate immunity (the kind of people who rarely if ever get colds). Even without Gupta’s new calculations, it seems to me quite plausible that we’re very close to herd immunity.

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Drives me mad when a journalist describes the current situation in Australia which has 5 deaths per million population as ‘proving’ that a second wave could be coming to the UK which has had 100 times the number of deaths.

Or when the Guardian describes Bolsonaro as an autocratic villain, and the Chilean people as villians for not listening to their socialist leaders, when every country in that part of South America has virtually identical outbreaks.

Still, I’m the fool for getting mad.
Prophets of all denominations have been blaming plagues and pestilences on the irreligiosity of the masses, and the idolatry of their leaders since the very dawn of time.

John Ottaway
John Ottaway
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Excellent summary of the situation. I am just the average guy in the street, but I tried early on to try to make sense of thing in my own mind.
Early doors pre lockdowns the virus was doubling every 3 days in several European countries including the UK.
There are reports the virus was spreading in France in early December and a gentleman in Paris who had not travelled abroad had the disease. Also reports that some Athletes at Military games in Wuhan last October suffered COVID 19 symptoms.
So looking at either of these timescales, take the number 1, and double up every 3 days. Even starting in the new year the number by late March would be a number greater than the entire population of the UK by late March when we locked down.
Deaths were high because so many people had the virus at a similar time. Most people have already been in contact with COVID. We are sure my wife had it over Xmas, she has never been so ill in 43 years of marriage with what became typical COVID symptoms. The over New Year I had the COVID cough. Dry cough, nothing there, but could not stop coughing. Then suffered a very minor stroke, ended up 5 days in hospital and fully recovered in around 2 months.
Over Xmas no one knew about COVID, but we had just returned from Lanzarote in an International hotel with Italians, French etc and passing through busy airports.
This is just my view, an ordinary guy, non medical, retired computer guy.

Kenneth MacKillop
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago

What I find most bothersome, and even somewhat frightening, is the observation that so many people in modern societies support the lockdowns. And many do so vociferously amd aggressively and emotionally, apparently not aware of or caring about the enormous negative impact upon so many others’ lives and livelihoods and health.

This is sick — mentally sick — I think. It reflects a lack of spirit and independence and confidence and intelligence in broad swaths of the populaces that I cannot imagine would have been possible even a few dacades ago, at least in my country of the USA. Nor in the UK I think, given my lesser but still significant familiarity with its culture vs. that of my country.

There is something wrong with a large number of people in most nominally “liberal” societies today. That is what concerns me, and not this relatively weak new pathogen, whether or not it was the result of ill-fated and unwise Wuhan lab artificial selection or “breeding” or gain-of-function experiments.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

Yes, I agree but fear as the driver can make the best of people do the worst of things and turn the wisest people into fools. It takes courage to buck the system, particularly the religion of science and its powerful cult, allopathic medicine.

Don’t get me wrong, allopathic medicine has some remarkable skills and if you are in a crisis/trauma situation then it is your best bet. But it does not and has not created or even supported good health and that is the problem.

Perhaps Covid will make more people aware of that reality.

jmitchell75
jmitchell75
3 years ago
Reply to  Athena Jones

Fear is indeed a driver, and the government (here in the UK) seem to have cottoned on to that fact and are now using covid-19 to effectively scare and shame people into losing weight, even though the obesity crisis has always been heavily linked with poverty.

Is this a sign of things to come? If the government wants us to comply with something that they have decided is in the common good, they just scare people into taking action?

Doesn’t that happen in totalitarian states?

Sociolect Sociolect
Sociolect Sociolect
3 years ago
Reply to  jmitchell75

Significant correction for casual onlookers and latecomers: There is no “here in the UK” regarding Covid-19 realistically speaking.

Health is devolved

There is of course coordination and alignment where appropriate but the health response and messaging is quite different & tailored to the needs, aims & circumstances of each of the 4 nations. Fiscal levers/borrowing powers are reserved however meaning furlough and job retention initiatives are dictated at Westminister…

“Major public services affected by the pandemic, in particular public health services and education, are the responsibility of the devolved administrations in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. In the case of Scotland and Northern Ireland, policing and justice matters are also devolved. Existing emergency powers to deal with the spread of infection are set out in different pieces of legislation for the four nations. In England and Wales, powers are provided by the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 (as amended by the Health Protection Act 2008). Similar powers are provided by the Public Health etc. (Scotland) Act 2008 and the Public Health Act (Northern Ireland) 1967.

As a result, an effective response to the public health emergency requires all four governments both to take action within their own areas of responsibility and to coordinate their actions.”

Helpful link: https://www.instituteforgov….

Noteworthy that England are apparently diverging from the Zero-Covid approach pursued by the 3 other nations (although no clear strategy has actually been articulated by England), as well as taking steps to dismantle Public Health England by way of reform.

Also, mitigating measures will have different statutory footings across the UK at different times i.e face-coverings mandatory in shops introduced at different stages.

Each country has their own contact tracing initiative too with rates of efficacy ranging from world-class, to sigificantly underachieving. There is however also a seperate UK drive-thru network to augment capacity and provide flexibility.

Significant for visitors that Quarantine restrictions/requirements can be different too but generally fall into alignment given a period of time. Fixed penalties and other steps around “compliance” are different across the 4 nations too.

Lastly, the public perception of the UK (Westminister) PM’s “handling” of the pandemic is, unfortunately for him, in stark & significant contrast to that of the First Minister of Wales (Mark Drakeford) and The First Minister of Scotland (Nicola Sturgeon) with polling bearing this out consistently.

Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
3 years ago

I agree with your concerns about the enthusiasm with which many woke people and I guess some others have embraced the apparent disaster which has been placed before them. (Though I think drives up infection rates not to isolate etc. I understand people not complying like sheep with whatever novel constrictive whim the government has.) It is as if they think humanity had it coming, that we somehow all deserved this for our ecological, economic etc. (racist, sexist, speciesist, meat-eating . . .) sins. Now we must pay the price, sacrifice our freedoms, pleasures and ability to earn money for the Greater Good. Unless, of course, social distancing gets in the way of attending a protest.

I guess it is a part of the intellectual elite’s oikophobia and the leftie dream of the all powerful creator God of Government (when under their control) Knowing Best and Protecting All. So shelter at home like Mommy Says, dob in your neighbours who don’t, and wait for Mommy’s team of boffins to provide the Vaccine which will restore Normality.

I think most people are busy worrying about the great disaster (and the deaths and lasting harm are disastrous in many countries), having already viewed numerous apocalyptic movies or read the novels. They can’t imagine that the medical leaders in this crisis are generally blind to something important and relatively simple (nutritional deficiencies) compared to the global entangled disastrous mess which looms in our immediate future. Meanwhile, conspiracy theorists point, correctly, to distortions in the data – but ignore the harm and deaths of children and people who are not at all old, when this is a very serious and tragic matter.

SARS-CoV-2 is only deadly for those whose immune systems are weakened and dysregulated. Anyone who has read the research on vitamin D (and ideally on boron and perhaps vitamin C) knows that most people’s immune systems are weakened and dysregulated compared to how they would be if they had at least 40ng/ml (100nmol/L) vitamin D. Doctors generally haven’t read this research. Most operate as herd, being very careful not to say a thing which might get them referred to by a word which describes the sound made by ducks. The herd position is largely oblivious to the pervasive damage already caused by weakened and dysregulated immune systems caused by nutritional inadequacies and by most people not having helminths, which downmodulated many immune responses of our ancestors: http://aminotheory.com/cv19… .

Johanna Barry
Johanna Barry
3 years ago

In the UK the biggest social isolation enthusiasts, as far as I can see, are the left-wing middle-class socialists. They all have big houses, nice gardens and assured incomes and they follow the letter of the law assiduously and would like us still to be locked-up. I have been in social situations and seen behaviours that are extraordinary. I can’t understand why otherwise intelligent people unquestioningly go through the things they go through. I have decided it is middle-class hairshirt. They feel very good about themselves. I just wish they would leave the rest of us to get on with living.

jmitchell75
jmitchell75
3 years ago

‘What I find most bothersome, and even somewhat frightening, is the observation that so many people in modern societies support the lockdowns.’

Couldn’t agree with this more – somebody coined the phrase covid-1984 and when your enemy is a brainwashed populace, this is very apt.

Andrew
Andrew
3 years ago

This is what you get when the Message Managers take control: – “Save Lives” (They didn’t save the 43,000, most of whom had multiple underlying medical conditions) “Protect The NHS” (Protect us from the NHS – health and social care workers main source of spreading it, and we now have virtually no functioning NHS)

Will Bates
Will Bates
3 years ago

There’s been some strange recent reporting in the New York Times scolding the “vaccine-hesitant.” I would think being slightly hesitant — like wanting to knew who made it, and how was it tested — is perfectly reasonable, but that does not seem to be the desired reaction of our Health Messengers.

Michael Baldwin
Michael Baldwin
3 years ago

On reviewing the comments below I am glad to see widespread resistance to both the compulsory mask policy and the zealous plans of many, especially in the scientific and medical community, to force vaccines on everyone, possibly prematurely and therefore likely unsafe.

That is to say, the staggering indifference of most of the media, and medical and scientific community to not only the likely massive economic disaster that so many are predicting, as well as the indifference to the millions worldwide and even perhaps in this country alone who are going to die due to cancelled treatments, operations, tests, due to the diversion of almost all the medical resources into covid-19, and the physical and mental health consequences of the lockdown itself on them, including being too scared to go to doctors or the hospital because of fear of the virus itself, is almost beyond belief.

Most of the covid-19 sceptical, and now increasingly also the far larger number of mask-sceptical population, have been trying to figure out what is going on for a long time.

But the only explanation I can see of this lack of resistance to the vast exaggeration about and overreaction to this virus by the authorities, is that they must believe somehow that it is worth this mass destruction of jobs, businesses, careers and lives, and mental health and denials of human rights and freedom imposed on the general population, so they must think they are going to make a huge profit out of it somehow.

Clearly the more people are ill of anything, the more funding the medical services will get.

And likewise, a vaccine which may even be forcibly administered to most or all of the population, given the shameless and rampant and undemocratic authoritarianism we’ve seen already, of which some unimaginably vast number of doses have been ordered already by governments, without even bothering it appears to check if either it is safe or it works, says that whoever is making the vaccines are going to be richer than Croesus, with apparently no longer any need for old fashioned things like sales campaigns to persuade people, now apparently that governments may be willing to force it on the whole public even against their will probably with threats of fines or even possible imprisonment.

So this is all deeply disturbing, because it may turn out, but likely never be admitted, that this global virus hoax (it’s a hoax in terms of it being as bad or worse than numerous other viruses our society has lived with and coped with without any Armageddon measures, like at present) is mostly an exercise in wild profiteering and fund leeching by the drug companies, and scientific and medical community, almost all of which has been egging on the hysteria, about a virus that the government itself and almost all the scientific advisers have admitted is not much dangerous to anybody except the over 70s or those with damaged immune systems or other serious underlying pre-existing conditions, which is of course the case for any seasonal flu virus also.

One only has to look in the streets, bars, and shops, prior to this coming Friday, to see it’s already clear that most of the public does not wish to wear masks by choice, and may not even do so even if forced to in many cases, if they can find a way to avoid shops and public transport, which probably millions can, by ordering online and so on, and they certainly don’t want a not properly trialled and tested vaccine either, especially one that is attempted to be forced on them.

While we all – or at least most of us, not everybody in fact – like the benefits of science, like TVs, mobile phones and computers, we seem to have suddenly wandered into a zone of dictatorship in which not even united and secure science is being forced on everybody without choice, and the idea that this is to “protect save/lives” doesn’t wash, when there have been so many lives undoubtedly cut short merely due to all the cancelled operations and tests alone.

Medicine has never been about guaranteeing to save everybody’s life, as that has never been and may never be possible, it has always been primarily about relieving suffering.

Science and medicine cannot eliminate risk, but by restricting our lives without our genuine consent, it can certainly eliminate the joy of life, such as by advising governments to stop grandparents seeing their children or grandchildren.

So what is the point of keeping people alive, if their lives are so restricted they are no longer worth living?

It now appears however, there is suddenly a lot of resistance to the measures, now a lot of people are being forced to wear face masks who did not before.

So hopefully both the government and the scientific advisors are in for “a rude awakening”, as the public finally decide they’ve had enough of this outrageous interference in their freedom, jobs, businesses and private lives, when this is clearly not a Bubonic order of plague, and likewise are therefore getting more than tired of a government behaving like a dictatorship in what in fact is still officially a democracy, the last time anyone checked.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

Well said. The most troubling thing is how easily people can be terrified into irrational compliance and submission. Then again, take a look at Bolshevik Russia and Nazi Germany if you want to see what it can do.

Government, media, science and medicine are all seeking to silence any dissent and that is dangerous. Good Government, good science and good medicine, and indeed any media worth having, not just demands questions and dissent, it needs it to function in any sort of effective and responsible way,

The economic destruction of nations can serve no good purpose and neither can mandatory medicine for a disease which ranges from a bad Flu season to a mild one depending on the country.

It looks like Covid-19 came out of a laboratory vaccine experiment according to some noted scientists, like Professor Luc Montaigner, Nobel Prizewinner for his work on AIDS, but they are being silenced. However, Governments would know and be suitably terrified at this alien invention. Hence the hysteria. They may finally admit it is manmade but they will never admit it was a vaccine experiment as they seek to brainwash the public in the delusional belief that survival requires constant vaccination for something.

At the end of the day it will be up to the public to take a stand and bring the ‘authorities’ to their senses.

Kenneth MacKillop
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago

I myself am almost 62 years old now. I have a severe form of a primary immunodeficiency known as CVID, caused by polygenic mutations in B cells (the master lymphocytes of the humoral adaptive immune system). I myself produce NO antibodies at all in response to polysaccharide or protein antigens, which are the antigens that most bacteria and viruses, respectively, present.

I got infected by SARS-2 in Feb. I only realized this a couple of months later — it was so trivial that I did not think I was sick at the time. I did not self-quarantine or stop working or stop anything in my daily routine.
I got infected in May a 2nd time, but not in the respiratory system (I tested negative with a double throat swab, and expected to since I had no respiratory symptoms at all). Rather, I got infected in gut, almost certainly from meat I ate. Since I have no humoral response at all, 100% of my adaptive immune response is cell-mediated and hence tissue specific.

My personal case history is not the basis of my conclusions about CoVID-19. I make these from the broad research literature. But my case is consistent with my conclusions.

I get flu almost every year, and on average I get more than one strain in a season. Children have immature, and hence weaker, adaptive immunity (both humoral and cell-mediated). I have no humoral immunity. Children and I are both very much more susceptible to flu than most of the population. Not so for CoVID-19.
There is a lesson to be learned in this observation. It is vital and fundamental.

Anyone who does not recognize this difference between flu and CoVID-19 will be hopelessly lost in understanding anything about the current “pandemic”.

It is also interesting to note that in all of the years that I have taken a flu shot I have gotten ill with flu. The only years (and they are few) during which I have entirely avoided flu illness (i.e. with symptoms) I have NOT taken the flu shot.

This MAY be no coincidence. I suspect that there may be mechanisms by which cell-mediated response is inhibited by a B-cell targeted vaccination. This simply makes common sense, short of getting into further technical immunological analysis.

And very much analogously, in the general (immunocompetent) population there may be a similar effect with SARS-2 virus. The humoral natural endogenous response is weak or nonexistent. Only those who get quite ill seem to generate much or any antibodies. Same goes for virus-specific B-cell memory and long-term persistence.

Every single one of the ~150 vaccines being developed now target humoral response with spike-protein-like antigens. This may actually backfire, and weaken the typical innate-immune and/or T-cells response in the bulk of the population that really needs no artificial stimulus or supplementation to easily fight off the virus.

There are a few already known and understood cellular mechanisms by which this effect occurs with a wide variety of viruses. But I suspect there are even more that are not yet recognized or understood at all.

Playing God, by trying to outdo evolution, usually does not work out medically. The relative success, although by no means panacea, of flu vaccination is really the exception rather than the rule for viruses. And even this is probably mostly due only to the predominance of vit D inadequacy in modern societies. Noone in the pharmaceutical industry, or the medical industry, or academia, or anywhere understands the human immune system very well. To say understanding is incomplete is a gross understatement.

Even if one or more vaccines in development and trials are perceived to be successful, there may be a short-lived positive effect on public confidence. But I doubt that, in the fullness of time looking back, any SARS-2 vaccines will be judged to have had significant epidemiological impact as does seasonal flu vaccination (despite its seasonally variable efficacy).

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

Thanks for the explanation. I am 70 with no health issues although I have long taken a holistic view of health and medicine and avoided the conventional medical fraternity with their synthetic drugs, myriad of tests which treat the body like a washing machine and/or bag of chemicals, and experimental vaccines. All vaccines are artificial, unnatural and experimental.

We are all different and need to do things in our own way. I totally oppose mandatory medicine of any kind but support people making their own choices whatever they may be.

Immune diseases are a curse of our age, and possibly not surprising it is the vaccination age. Auto-immune diseases are at levels never seen before and worse in children.

What goes into the body comes out of the body into our food chain and the levels of science and medical meddling, particularly with genetics and synthetics, have simply never been seen before.

In many ways it is a testament to the resilience and robust nature of the human organism that we are not all dead, even if levels of serious and chronic disease in this age of much allopathic medicine, are higher than ever before and worse in children.

The problem is simple, science is not independent and neither is medicine and each are mere tools of the pharmaceutical industry who has only one goal, ever-increasing profits.

But, slow learners we humans might be, we do learn.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago

Kenneth, you say: “Every single one of the ~150 vaccines being developed now target humoral response with spike-protein-like antigens. This may actually backfire, and weaken the typical innate-immune and/or T-cells response in the bulk of the population that really needs no artificial stimulus or supplementation to easily fight off the virus.”
This is very chilling to think about, as it looks like the push is on to vaccinate entire populations, including children/young people who appear not to be a risk with SARS-CoV-2.
The whole system is so biased towards vaccination, has indeed been colonised by the vaccine industry. This current coronavirus situation is a juggernaut out of control…somebody needs to pull the emergency handle, and stop and think about this…

Steven Sieff
Steven Sieff
3 years ago

Good explanation, helpful piece. The difficulty is that what is offered as a ‘reasonable timescale’ for the vaccine exit strategy doesn’t seem very reasonable to many – especially those who appear to be at very low risk from the virus. And there is much scepticism that even the 12 months anticipated in the article is realistic. We need to find a more satisfactory way of living with it while we wait for a vaccine. That is what https://greenbandredband.com is there for. A simpler system which incorporates the best of distancing but recognises different risk profiles and our right to choose.

Jeffrey Shaw
Jeffrey Shaw
3 years ago

The primary points of the “pandemic” were to a) prepare the world for a global vaccination program and b) remove cash from global economies. The “fight against Covid-19” has almost nothing to do with science and everything to do with the application of orthodox doctrine.

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeffrey Shaw

How do you know this? I see no evidence of what you say. Does it strike you as likely that, with the numbers impliedly involved in a worldwide conspiracy, not one person has blown a whistle?

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

They openly admit it. It isn’t a secret. Listen to Bill Gates’s TED talks and they have already announced “the great reset”. They will hash out the details at their January 2021 conference and begin rolling it out shortly after. It is all spelled out. They even had their practice run I linked to above. https://www.weforum.org/age

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon
Jeffrey Shaw
Jeffrey Shaw
3 years ago
Reply to  Michael Yeadon

Keep in mind that 48,000 people passed through Bletchley Park during WW II and the critical years thereafter until GCHQ was fully established and running. To my knowledge, not one of them ever revealed the nature of their work, or spoke freely about the same until after Margaret Thatcher freed them of their vows of secrecy in 1983. If you don’t think governments are capable of instituting and achieving large secretive programs over a long period of time, you are mistaken.
Do you have any idea how many soldiers and sailors were killed during Project High-jump, undertaken shortly after the end of WWII? No – nobody does because the files remain sealed, but the US clearly lost 3 vessels and others limped home, while Admiral Byrd would only say that there are forces in Antarctica that are beyond our current capabilities to defend.
Nothing is ever what it seems – think abstractly…..and ask yourself one question – “When was the last time my government told me the truth, about anything?” And, it doesn’t matter in which country you might live.

Kenneth MacKillop
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago

I would add, again, that population-wide adequacy of vit D hepatic storage levels — i.e. that with which we have evolved over the long term — probably would make seasonal flu trivial and would simply eliminate CoVID-19 entirely.

One thing that so-called CoVID (a CCP-generated term — I prefer Wuhan flu or Jinping commie virus) has contributed is substantial new data on vit D status vs. clinical response to infection. I find it pretty convincing that vit D plays a critical role in lung, and there is over a century of earlier evidence.

If the liver runs out of vit D this disables an arm of the immune response that is especially important in lung, This plays a huge role in serious and mortal complications from flu, SARS-2, and other respiratory disease.

The drug industry has done a great job, worldwide, of rather silently and covertly suppressing knowledge regarding vit D. And it has perpetrated the “party line” that it is unimportant or snake oil. This is BS. People have to read the experimental research literature rather than listening to the propaganda and lies of interested and powerful institutions, including government and even MDs.

Vit D supplements are dirt-cheap. IMO everyone should be taking 5000IU daily. More if required. There is no reason not to. Most of us in temperate regions will not achieve adequacy in any other way. We are not all living near the equator and naked anymore, but this is how modern man evolved.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

Which would perhaps explain why the virus seems less of an issue in countries with a lot of sunshine.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago

So why isn’t more being done to recommend Vitamin D?

Particularly for the elderly who are most at risk?

See for example this paper in the Irish Medical Journal – ‘Vitamin D and Inflammation: Potential Implications for Severity of Covid-19’, published recently.

The authors state: “A heightened immune response in people who are vitamin D deficient may therefore increase the potential for ‘cytokine storm’ and consequent ARDS”.

The abstract concludes: “Optimising vitamin D status to recommendations by national and international public health agencies will certainly have benefits for bone health and potential benefits for Covid-19. There is a strong plausible biological hypothesis and evolving epidemiological data supporting a role for vitamin D in Covid-19.”

Also see my rapid response on The BMJ, i.e. ‘Looking at Sweden, COVID-19 and vitamin D…’ re vitamin D deficiency in Swedish nursing homes.

I haven’t heard any promotion of vitamin D here in Australia in regards to the current situation. Far from it, Professor Mark Morgan of The Royal Australian College of General Practitioners says ‘At the moment, I’ve not seen any evidence that using vitamin D could prevent or treat COVID-19,’ he said.’I know that there’s a number of controlled trials that are being commenced to look into that, but we’ll have to wait for the results of those trials before we have any information.’: https://www1.racgp.org.au/n

Honestly, would it do any harm to promote vitamin D. Could do a lot of good…

Meanwhile, untold millions $$$ goes into very questionable coronavirus vaccine research…

Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Regarding vitamin D and COVID-19, please take a look at
http://aminotheory.com/cv19/ and the invitation at the start of this
page for people with a serious interest in nutrition and immunity -to
join the NISH (Nutrition for Immune System Health) discussion list.

Kenneth MacKillop
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago

P.S. And in countries (e.g. New Zealand) that have successfully suppressed much transmission early, with contact tracing and the fortune of being in Southern Hemisphere and islands and so forth, there will be eventual outbreaks and delayed first seasons once the lockdowns and restrictions are released. Is NZ going to give up its tourist industry in perpetuity? How many tourists will submit to quarantine before full entry and the tourism experience they travel for?

It is DUMB — ridiculously ignorant hubris — for societies and leaders to pat themselves on the back over the Potemkin victory of lockdowns and such. I say “dumb” because we (i.e. the world at large) now know too much about the new virus to excuse such attitudes as simply ignorant.

Sweden got it right. In the US we are matching Sweden despite the political leadership getting it all wrong, due to culture and common sense in the populace. The virus is spreading fast enough now in many states which lagged the northeast, with continued level or declining death and hospitalization rates predominantly. In the northeast it is over, for the most part. There will be no significant 2nd season. It is simply over with already.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

Why do you think people are so gullible on this issue? Is it fear or have we really dumbed down the population?

Dave Tagge
Dave Tagge
3 years ago

Overall a very good article from Mr. Chivers.

I did a double-take at one statement from Dr. Beale: “Beale in particular says that “policy-wise, it’d be completely insane to let it get out of control now,” because “by this time next year” it’s likely that we will have an effective and widely available vaccine. “Better to lock down even at considerable economic cost and wait for that,” he says.”

Unless Beale has some very differing definition of “lock down” – which I don’t think is the case based on his reference to “considerable economic cost” – then he seems blind to the level of economic and social costs that he’s discussing. We’ve seen massive costs from lock downs of a few months. The costs from a year of them would be astounding, and I strongly suspect even more than a linear extrapolation would suggest because many of these impacts compound over time. Businesses close permanently, people move from being temporarily unemployed to permanently dropping out of the labor force, temporary social isolation turns into feeling like one is permanently disconnected from others, etc.

Also: why does Dr. Beale have so much certainty that locking down for a year would have much impact on the number of people eventually infected? In many places where the virus gets established, the infection/death curves with lockdowns seem to be not that much (if any) different from the curve in Sweden. Even if we grant that lockdowns meaningfully slow the rate of spread through a population – which is subject to some empirical doubt – it seems quite possible that we’d simply see roughly the same number of infections spread over a year instead of the ~3 months during which SARS-CoV-2 otherwise seems to burn through a population. As long as a faster rate of spread stays within healthcare treatment capacity, where’s the big advantage of that?

Adamsson
Adamsson
3 years ago

No only Big Brother can save us.
He says so.

Adrian
Adrian
3 years ago
Reply to  Adamsson

He may be watching you, but he can’t see who you are if you’re wearing a mask…

Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
3 years ago

My previous message, which was perhaps too long for the moderators, was missing this:

For links to research on why vitamin D deficiency is the most important, easily changeable, cause of the weakened and dysregulated immune responses which enable SARS-CoV2 to cause severe symptoms, harm and death, please see these websites:http://aminotheory.com/cv19/ , http://agingbiotech.info/vi… , https://github.com/GShotwel… and http://www.drdavidgrimes.com .

David Slade
David Slade
3 years ago

Thank you for an interesting and level-headed article. To put into perspective just how refreshing this analysis is, I have just seen a panic stricken headline in MSM about how the Coronavirus will be with us for years and certainly wont be gone by Christmas. The implication/subtext of the MSM article, I suspect, is that calling for normality by Christmas is naive.

The writers of such articles and purveyors of such statements don’t seem to realise that they are in fact making a case for a return to normality sooner rather than later. If the virus is, indeed, endemic (as most of us understood it was) then you may as well have a random date for a return to normality – say, I don’t know, Christmas, perhaps?

Back on topic, I had always found the obsession with how long anti bodies are in the body to be slightly odd. I have no medical training, but I have intuitively never believed that my immune system works in such a way that the anti bodies to every virus/pathogen I have ever had are waiting poised to strike in my body. It has always seemed more likely this is a ‘chemical memory’ (for want of a better phrase – ‘no medical training’, as I say).

I would hope that at the end of this (or a development that happens as a result of this), public health messaging becomes more focused on how humans can help their immune system help them. Then we have messaging that works with human agency rather than against it. Too much messaging is prohibitive when it comes to public health – you are told what you shouldn’t do or must do (usually pertaining to something you would otherwise want/not want to do). You are never told what you could do to live your life. Ensuring good health for the immune system seems a good place to start. I may be being unfair to Public Health officials, in which case I apologise – that’s not my intention.

Again, many thanks for the continued useful and vital articles.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  David Slade

There is a large body of science-medical evidence showing that high Titre (Titer) or antibody levels can still have people succumb seriously to the disease and non-existent antibody levels can see people free of the disease.

The antibody theory even for vaccines has been virtually ‘dead in the water’ for some time but vaccine theory is reluctant to change, perhaps more than most. It’s all about the money.

Kenneth MacKillop
Kenneth MacKillop
3 years ago

It is very hard for me to imagine anything else but that SARS-CoV-2 will become a very minor seasonal infection within one to three years (depending upon locality and local rate of spread). And it also is simply not a very virulent virus — far less so than any seasonal strain of flu for example.

What is being hugely underestimated is the predominant role of human immunology in everything epidemiological. This will continue to dominate, as it has so far. In Massachusetts (USA), where I liive, all of the important stat’s are now down to 10% of peak (in first week of April) now, and STILL falling! This is so-called “herd immunity” and nothing else of significance. It has been the same everywhere in the world, essentially. Transmission of virus varies greatly with regional or local factors, but this only affects what “phase” of the epidemic a region is in at any given time.

There are many, many, many components of the human immune system relevant to SARS-2. There are the AMPs (antimicrobial proteins) for example. There are natural killer cells, which are the innate-immune analog of the killer T cells — both lymphocytes. There is “complement” — more proteins fundamentally important as a component of immune response at the cellular level. There are far more than two types of T cells as well.

People should think liong and hard about the horseshoe bats which are the permanent host species from which all of these CoVs derive. These bats (mammals like us) do not experience any illness. Their metabolic rates are very high (maybe an order of magnitude higher than our’s), and so despite the fact that their cells continuously replicate virus their cellular machinery and immune response easily copes and the tissues/cells function more or less normally with an immune response that maintains at a very low level. Hence, an inflammatory response which the bats could sense is unnecessary,

We, by contrast, require an immune response that we MIGHT sense, but so many of us are likewise without symptoms because if we are young and/or in good health this virus is easily killed off with a subclinical or asymptomatic response. It is somewhat similar to the bats in that regard.
Our species would not be extant/living, much less as successful as we are, without the immunological evolution to easily respond (at an aggregate species level, which is analogous to the “herd” in veterinary practice for livestock animals) to this (or any) virus. This is the negative feedback that all stable systems, including biological ones, require.

Humoral immunity plays a minor role with this virus, precisely because it is not very potent in part. This is in stark contrast to flu, which threatens children substantially. The innate immune system, aided by the cell-mediated adaptive system (i.e. T cells), is more than adequate to repress cellular replication in the healthy.

I doubt that any vaccines will, in the end, play a significant role in the long term. They are unnecessary, and there is a good chance that most or even all could be relatively unsuccessful with this virus. It is not influenza and has very different properties. Only the partial “novelty” of SARS-2 has made it epidemiologically signficant, and roughly comparable to season flu, in its FIRST season. This will quickly dissipate in successive seasons.

Epidemiology, much less its more specific branch for contagious respiratory viral illnesses, seems to be a legacy field — largley lost knowledge with very little professional demand. This seems especially true at the level of public officials and politics.
The ignorance and naivete wrt this virus and epidemic is absolutely astounding. It is nearly unuiversal. The lockdowns have been pointless, at least beyond a short duration of maybe four weeks to guanantee adequate hospital capacity — it does not require any more than four weeks in any city or similar locality. Local infections will peak and substantially decline, due to adequate human-acquired recognition of the virus, in no more than this amount of time. The data everywhere confirm this. That does not mean that the epidemic goes to zero, but it does mean that transmission will be very much slowed, infection “doses” and viral loads in patients will be much reduced, and all of these trends will continue indefinitely.

Those who would counter that “serology” (i.e. antibody) testing refutes this have not done their homework, to say the least. Again, humoral immunity and response plays a minor, and largely unnecessary, role. Cell-mediated response is more prevalent and more important. All of the studies that have been designed to look at this have confirmed what should have been expected, based upon the pre-pandemic knowledge of both alpha and beta CoVs. It takes more effort to test for cell-mediated immunity, and it is basically a lab/manual process rather than the more (potentially) automated type for humoral immunity that is commercially and clinically widespread due to seasonal flu’s long history.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago

So why isn’t more being done to recommend Vitamin D?

Particularly for the elderly who are most at risk?

See for example this paper published recently in the Irish Medical Journal – ‘Vitamin D and Inflammation: Potential Implications for Severity of Covid-19’.

The authors state: “A heightened immune response in people who are vitamin D deficient may therefore increase the potential for ‘cytokine storm’ and consequent ARDS”.

The abstract concludes: “Optimising vitamin D status to recommendations by national and international public health agencies will certainly have benefits for bone health and potential benefits for Covid-19. There is a strong plausible biological hypothesis and evolving epidemiological data supporting a role for vitamin D in Covid-19.”

Also see my rapid response on The BMJ, i.e. ‘Looking at Sweden, COVID-19 and vitamin D…’ which raises vitamin D deficiency in Swedish nursing homes.

I haven’t heard any promotion of vitamin D here in Australia in regards to the current situation. Far from it, Professor Mark Morgan of The Royal Australian College of General Practitioners says ‘At the moment, I’ve not seen any evidence that using vitamin D could prevent or treat COVID-19,’ he said.’I know that there’s a number of controlled trials that are being commenced to look into that, but we’ll have to wait for the results of those trials before we have any information.’ See: ‘Do vitamin D levels affect risk of infection and severity of COVID-19?’

Would it do any harm to promote vitamin D. Could do a lot of good…

Meanwhile, untold millions $$$ goes into very questionable coronavirus vaccine research…

Joe Smith
Joe Smith
3 years ago

I see the issue of a vaccine as being largely irrelevant. The real issue is society remembering that we already live with various risks that can’t be eliminated, of which Covid is just one more. If we do get a vaccine then great, but don’t let’s talk ourselves into believing that a vaccine is a prerequisite to getting back to normal.

Dave Tagge
Dave Tagge
3 years ago

“I don’t want to be too harsh on anyone for the perhaps over-alarmist reporting; science writing in a fast-moving pandemic is bloody hard (I’ve discovered).”

That’s fair to some limited degree, but I think that Mr. Chivers is too kind with this view.

The problem isn’t so much that a lot of the reporting was necessarily based on uncertain information that could (and sometimes did) change. The problem is that the misinterpretations, the reliance on anecdotes over data, etc. virtually all have been in one direction from most of the “mainstream” news outlets: toward alarmism and sometimes all the way to hysterical panic.

phderome
phderome
3 years ago

Let us make sure the first week of vaccination proves that the very powerful and rich have taken it without a doubt: heads of state, members of parliaments, senators, secretaries of state, top generals and other military commanders, Fortune 500 CEOs, pope, archbishops, imams and rabbis, pro athletes, Hollywood/Bollywood stars. We then wait 2-3 months for any effect and then we go along with the rest of the population.

Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
3 years ago

SARS-CoV-2 only causes severe symptoms, harm and death for people whose immune systems have a weak initial response followed by a dysregulated, overly-aggressive, hyper-inflammatory, self-destructive response. This enables the infection to reach the lungs, where the virus and the dysregulated immune response destroy epithelial cells which line the blood vessels. (Infection can also occur elsewhere, but this is the most affected area.) The body responds to the broken up blood vessels by making the blood extremely coagulative. This hypercoagulative state leads to microembolisms and potentially large blood clots all over the body – in the lungs, heart, brain, spinal cord, liver, kidneys etc. If the person doesn’t die of hypoxia, heart attack or stroke then there is likely to be lasting damage to other organs.

This virus is a major problem for humanity only because a significant proportion of the population have weak, dysregulated immune systems. The most important, easily changeable, cause of this is vitamin D deficiency.

For centuries or millennia (years or decades for African and Asian immigrants who move to poleward countries) with lots of living indoors, away from the equator, we have had a pandemic of vitamin D deficiency. Rickets is the most obvious outcome of this, but even when this is fixed (and this has not been done completely) there are still profound problems with overly inflammatory, dysregulated immune systems. This drives numerous chronic conditions such as neurodegeneration, MS, Crohn’s disease, asthma etc. according to individual genetic variation.

So humans, in general, are already suffering terribly from low vitamin D. We need at least 40ng/ml (100nmol/L) to be healthy: https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/7/2097 . Yet without robust supplementation, such as 0.1mg (4000IU) most people have between 10 and 20ng/ml. The UK government recommends 0.01mg a day for adults.

Kawasaki disease in children is triggered by various viral or bacterial infections – and COVID-19 is an especially strong trigger. Italian research shows that the only children who get Kawasaki disease have very low vitamin D levels (average 9ng/ml) and those who get it worst, with pulmonary artery aneurysms, have just 5ng/ml. https://sci-hub.tw/10.1007/s10067-015-2970-6 . Yet, due to the medical profession’s general blindness regarding nutritional causes of diseases, very few treating doctors are aware of this.

Now comes along SARS-CoV-2 and some of those people (the majority) who have already been suffering slow, common, “normal” degenerative and other diseases are now at very high risk of harm and death from a virus which almost everyone is going to get in the next months or year or so. (There’s no reason to believe there will ever be a vaccine, let alone by next northern winter – I support Chris Martin’s view.)

There are other risk factors which are difficult or impossible to change: A common genetic haplotype: https://www.biorxiv.org/con… which is apparently most prevalent in Bangladeshis; Obesity, in which the excess adipocytes (fat cells) express ACE2 and so can be infected and which create inflammatory cytokines. Obesity also apparently involves ectopic adipocytes in the lungs.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Whittle

That is an interesting explanation. The modern fad for fearing sunshine and lathering the body in chemical slop, which is then absorbed, but is a process which prevents Vitamin D from sunshine must play a part.

Neither do we have studies looking at the health and disease levels in fully, partially and non-vaccinated children and we still do not know what vaccines might be doing since they are designed to confuse and trick immune function into reacting to a non-threat. Indeed, never before in human history have babies and children with immature immune function been injected with genetically modified disease, along with genetically modified material from animals, birds, humans, in combination with a raft of synthetic chemicals.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Robin Whittle

Just one question re: your theory – why have Third World countries, Africa in particular, not been laid waste by Covid if they are so vulnerable? they seem to be doing better than the West.

Robin Whittle
Robin Whittle
3 years ago
Reply to  Athena Jones

Low death rates in Africa might in part be explained by more sunshine and so more vitamin D. However, many of the people have dark skin and spend much more time out of the sun than our ancestors did. Also, the haplotype I mentioned is apparently inherited from Neandertals and is rarely found in Africans. Another possible factor is the BCG vaccination for TB. I have read that this may be protective – but I haven’t researched this so I just mention it.

In some African countries helminths (intestinal worms) are common. This would be protective against the hyper-inflammatory immune response according to the research I cite here: http://aminotheory.com/cv19… . Please read this, since a comments section like this is not the place for a full explanation. In brief: our ancestors had helminths which downmodulated some of their immune responses, so all humans today, in general (with considerable genetic variation) have some overly-aggressive immune responses which evolved then – assuming that today we don’t have helminths to downmodulate them. See the above link for research showing pig whipworm infection put Crohn’s disease patients into remission.

Africans living far from the equator, such as in the USA or Sweden, seem to have much higher death rates from COVID-19. Obesity is a major problem in the USA, especially for blacks, irrespective of whether they live in the north or south.

There are no-doubt other factors at work, including sanitation (fecal-oral transmission), density of living, success of social distancing etc. Whatever the reasons, some African countries are doing remarkably well compared to the USA, UK and many others. Uganda https://www.worldometers.in… has 43 million people, 1072 cases in total, three or four new cases a day and no deaths.

Pat Duignan
Pat Duignan
3 years ago

Tom

New Zealand is pursuing the policy suggested by Prof Beale

“it’s likely that we will have an effective and widely available vaccine. “Better to lock down even at considerable economic cost and wait for that,” he says, although he acknowledges the calculus changes if the vaccine will be much longer coming”

Having eliminated community transmission we are able to go about life as normal in almost all respects except for international tourism.

The Oxford epidemiologists particularly Tom Jefferson seem obsessed with their theory that a high proportion of the population have already been infected. They have been proved wrong regarding their earlier predictions as to the level of infection and herd immunity which they asserted would be reached by May. They are now critical of countries like NZ, Vietnam and Taiwan which rejected their advice and have eliminated Covid19. I am surprised that Unherd does not challenge them but instead just uncritically publishes their latest theories.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago

Any safe vaccine is 2-3 years away, by which time, humanity will have developed immunity to Covid which is a variation on the theme of the common cold, probably artificially constructed in a laboratory.

Any not-safe vaccine might be a few months away but are we going to risk the loss of generations forcing everyone to have it? Look at the harm the rushed-through Swine Flu vaccine did. Children appear not to become sick or spread Covid so surely sanity dictates if the vaccine mafia have their way, children will be excepted. At least then we have some future generations to cover the cost of a dangerous vaccine.

The hysteria is insane. Around 90% of people if not more, and particularly children, are not made sick by Covid and most who are, recover. Only the very, very sick, 2-3 co-morbidities, which will kill them anyway, who are also old, appear to be at risk.

Not only do we not need a vaccine, we do not need lockdown, but simply isolation of the sick and vulnerable until Herd Immunity, real one, not vaccine-pretense, is established. And we are well on the way to that.

The data appears to show Covid around for 12 months before it was ‘identified,’ without any major issues. Treatment has certainly killed some people and since the dead are never known to have died OF, WITH, OR WHATEVER with Covid, we still have no clear picture of its threat.

Jeff Andrews
Jeff Andrews
3 years ago

I could have lived with corona virus rather more comfortably if the Boris govt hadn’t suddenly decided to mis-micromanage it. I imagine a lot more people would have survived if they hadn’t had there lungs blown up or had a DNR notice posted on them. Don’t know why more people aren’t calling for him and his cabinet to be charged with at least manslaughter. Along with numerous other offences.

D Glover
D Glover
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Andrews

I think the blame rests squarely on the Chinese government.
I don’t trust Boris, but I’m not blaming him this time.
Did Boris advise the use of forced ventilation? Would it have been micromanaging if he had?

Mark Corby
Mark Corby
3 years ago

Please wake up, this is not the Black Death. Only those of us trotting along in the Valley of Death (VOD) are at risk, and most of us, to use the vernacular, ” don’t give a toss”.

Sit down, reach for the vino or perhaps a gin, and listen to say John Tavener’s,”The Protecting Veil”, or some such, and you will feel, much, much, better.

The VOD has many advantages, but the greatest is pragmatism. We have seen it all.
As Suetonius may/ might have said ” the man who is not afraid of death will always be your master”.

susienevis
susienevis
3 years ago

BULGARIA: NO ONE HAS DIED FROM THE CORONAVIRUS
Important revelations shared by Dr Stoian Alexov – President of the Bulgarian Pathology Association.
A high-profile European pathologist is reporting that he and his colleagues across Europe have not found any evidence of any deaths from the novel coronavirus on that continent. Dr. Stoian Alexov called the World Health Organization (WHO) a “criminal medical organization” for creating worldwide fear and chaos without providing objectively verifiable proof of a pandemic. Another stunning revelation from Bulgarian Pathology Association (BPA) president Dr. Alexov is that he believes it’s currently “impossible” to create a vaccine against the virus. He also revealed that European pathologists haven’t identified any antibodies that are specific for SARS-CoV-2. These stunning statements raise major questions, including about officials’ and scientists’ claims regarding the many vaccines they’re rushing into clinical trials around the world. They also raise doubt about the veracity of claims of discovery of anti-novel-coronavirus antibodies (which are beginning to be used to treat patients). Novel-coronavirus-specific antibodies are supposedly the basis for the expensive serology test kits being used in many countries (some of which have been found to be unacceptably inaccurate). And they’re purportedly key to the immunity certificates coveted by Bill Gates that are about to go into widespread use ” in the form of the COVI-PASS ” in 15 countries including the UK, US, and Canada. Dr. Alexov made his jaw-dropping observations in a video interview summarizing the consensus of participants in a May 8, 2020, European Society of Pathology (ESP) webinar on COVID-19. The May 13 video interview of Dr. Alexov was conducted by Dr. Stoycho Katsarov, chair of the Center for Protection of Citizens’ Rights in Sofia and a former Bulgarian deputy minister of health. The video is on the BPA’s website, which also highlights some of Dr. Alexov’s main points. We asked a native Bulgarian speaker with a science background to orally translate the video interview into English. We then transcribed her translation. The video is here and our English transcript is here. Rosemary Frei & Patrick Corbe
https://redoubtnews.com/202

Helene Banoun
Helene Banoun
3 years ago

I developed a hypothesis to explain the decline of the Covid epidemic by the evolution of the virus in relation to the immune system of its host.

EVOLUTION OF SARS-COV-2 IN RELATION TO THE HOST IMMUNE SYSTEM.

http://ssrn.com/abstract=3637909
http://ssrn.com/abstract=36
DOI: 10.2139/ssrn.3637909

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago

There is no definitive answer (that I’ve seen) to the questions of whether vaccines will be effective, whether infection results in lasting immunity or whether re-infection results in a lessening of symptoms.

We do know, that this virus has hastened the death of tens of thousands in the UK and resulted in many more becoming and remaining seriously ill.

‘Protect the vulnerable’ sounds so sensible and supportive. But what it really means in the context of current policy in England, which is to allow the spread of the virus above negligible levels, is ‘segregate the vulnerable.’ It means saying that some people will never be able to fully participate in ‘normal’ life activities such as going to concerts, bars, restaurants, family gatherings, work in offices, shops or factories until there is a vaccine or until these people die of other causes. If these ‘vulnerable’ people do choose to take part in these activities and they then contract the virus and become seriously ill or die they are complicit in their own misfortune by not protecting themselves and guilty of burdening the NHS.

There is a view that sacrificing the right to participate fully in ‘normal’ life for the significant minority of people classed as ‘vulnerable’ in order to promote the rights of the invulnerable majority and the current economic order is a valid approach. To me that sounds like discrimination against the old, the sick and the poor in favour of the young, the well and the wealthy.

Elizabeth Hart
Elizabeth Hart
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Just to put this in some perspective, here are some figures I put together on COVID-19 deaths from the ONS website*, up to 3 July 2020:

<1-39: 296
40-54: 1,545
55-69: 6,282
70-90+: 42,016

TOTAL: 50,139

These figures are for England and Wales, population 59,439,900.

* Weekly provisional figures on deaths registered where coronavirus (COVID-19) was mentioned on the death certificate in England and Wales.

Michael Yeadon
Michael Yeadon
3 years ago
Reply to  Elizabeth Hart

Very helpful, thank you for the context.
Consistent with this, the median age of those dying with covid19 is 84y for females & 81y for males. Without prejudice, I note these ages are close to median age at death in previous years.
Similarly, though death in those under 40y are relatively uncommon, there are some deaths yearly in the age groups you list.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

“virus has hastened the death of tens of thousands in the UK” This has always been true of virus and other causes. Flue, TB, Corona viruses, etc. People die. Especially sick and immune compromised people. They die all the time. There is no evidence that sticking them into a hole, forcing people to stay in their homes, and causing the health care system to only focus on one problem is saving any lives. In fact the opposite may be true. This virus caused a temporary spike in above average deaths. Even after that ended the insane response to it has only gotten worse. The response has been panicked hysteria and endless 24/7 coverage on MSM feeding into it. This is collective insanity of the worst kind. A complete rejection of everything humans have learned about immunology. A complete rejection of our place in the world as a mortal animal. We are not immortal. We will all die. I don’t think that means we should all jump off a building or stay at sea level when we know a hurricane is approaching. We should all take reasonable steps to protect ourselves but this is not reasonable at all. Mankind has lived with germs and viruses throughout all of human history. Hiding in our basements every time we have a bad flue season is insane.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Dennis Boylon

And there is data showing mortality skyrocketed AFTER lockdown.

Dennis Boylon
Dennis Boylon
3 years ago
Reply to  Athena Jones

http://inproportion2.talkig… And then there is this! This isn’t possible. The only explanation is they are over classifying covid.

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

So you are saying that we should prevent all people from living a normal life so that we don’t have to prevent some people from living a normal life. I cannot see how you came to this logic.

Last Jacobin
Last Jacobin
3 years ago
Reply to  chrisjwmartin

I am saying that we should follow a policy of suppressing the virus to negligible levels so that all people can live as normal a life as possible. That is not UK Government Policy.

chrisjwmartin
chrisjwmartin
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

Suppressing the virus to negligible levels will have devastating, life-ruining consequences for every living human while that effort goes on. And it will probably have to go on for the rest of time, as it is not likely to be any more possible to eradicate this coronavirus from the entire planet than it has been to eradicate the other coronaviruses we know as the common cold.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Last Jacobin

If protecting the vulnerable was the goal, why, in both the US and UK, with dire outcomes, were the ill tossed out of hospital and into inferior care facilities and those in need of emergency help advised to stay home? Without autopsies and a reliable test for Covid, we still have no idea who has died OF IT OR WITH IT OR FROM SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY.

In the US hospitals are paid more money to treat Covid patients and most deaths are called Covid. In Belgium all nursing home deaths were called Covid deaths. I mean, that is such sloppy science and dodgy data how can anyone believe it?

Pat Duignan
Pat Duignan
3 years ago

The reason why no vaccine has been marketed for the common cold is explained in the following link https:

//http://www.city-journal.org/covid-...

The virus causing Covid19 does not have the characteristics that are the obstacle to development of an HIV vaccine.

Bin Ra
Bin Ra
3 years ago

The panic response to upset, embarrassment and alarm, is fundamentally a matter of buyer beware! But when its seller is masking as a trusted source or authority there is a basis for crying foul for malfeasance – not for causing likely upset, embarrassment and alarm.

This comment is after reading the one jarring condition in the unherd comment policy statement.

12 Be likely to upset, embarrass and alarm any other person

All power to the claim to grievance then?
And the cultivators thereof?

I take great offence and have experienced major upset and alarm as a result of the compliance to the dictated reaction to what is packaged as ‘Covid-19’ – but clearly only just beginning to reveal the redistribution of toxic debts. Nevertheless I own my experience, and don’t buy the problem as packaged, and so am not compelled to seek salvation or escape in the shoehorned ‘solution’ by leveraging of guilt and fear.

But as an individual witness, I am unherded and unheard from officially sanctioned human rights and freedoms – or blanked of humanity by the use of conflict, alarm and shame to manipulate the mind.

Monica Elrod
Monica Elrod
3 years ago

I don’t understand being so resentful about wearing a mask. What’s the big deal? It’s a courtesy to others. The virus spreads from particles released through the mouth and nose. Wearing a mask protects others if you have the virus. And many many people are asymptomatic – latest estimates are 40%. In the US, this selfish thinking has created a massive resurgence of the virus, with many hospitals bursting at the seams. It’s a simple little thing to do to protect yourself and others.

David Slade
David Slade
3 years ago
Reply to  Monica Elrod

Its the proverbial straw that broke the camels back for a lot of people I’m afraid. I got in to a debate with a someone online about this. They sent me articles pertaining to the effectiveness of masks; I was quite impressed by them and couldn’t offer a qualified rebuttal. After about thirty seconds to a minute I had found a couple of meta-analysis showing masks had no benefit in a community setting at protecting the wearer or anyone else. Both sets or research came from credible sources and were all recent enough not to be peer reviewed as yet.

There’s nothing wrong with that ambiguity – that’s the nature of science (as opposed to ‘The science’), but it makes charges of scientific illiteracy or moral complacency by pro maskers against anti maskers a little grating and invites the later to double-down.

In the face of all this, many feel they may as well look at wider implications and make decisions based on their feelings about state over reach and over all health and liberty. Yes, I will wear a mask if mandated to do so in a shop – but does it stop there? For how long will I wear one/what’s the criteria for unmasking? how do I know there will be no ‘mission creep’ – will it be shops today; work places tomorrow; every-time I leave my house on pain of official reprimand in the future?

I have no answers for you, but it was a bit unfair of me to down vote your comment without stating why.

georgeguyfolger
georgeguyfolger
3 years ago
Reply to  Monica Elrod

In short, there is no scientific proof that masks work. So maybe be a bit more humble and educate yourself.

Athena Jones
Athena Jones
3 years ago
Reply to  Monica Elrod

The US is heavily masked and Australia is very minimally masked. Who is doing better? Yes, Australia. There is no evidence masks work and they must, by their nature, increase levels of toxins in the body because it is through breathing, particularly in fresh air, our body removes such toxins.