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Peckham protests illustrate the redundancy of ‘Bame’

Protesters outside Peckham Hair and Cosmetics shop yesterday. Credit: Getty

September 13, 2023 - 4:30pm

Following footage circulating online of a black woman accused of theft being physically restrained by a male Asian-heritage shopkeeper in the south-east London district of Peckham, the matter of community cohesion in England’s diverse inner cities has once again been thrust into the spotlight. 

Tense community relations between elements of Britain’s wider Asian and black populations are nothing new. The 2005 Birmingham riots — specifically in the relatively deprived Lozells and Handsworth areas — were primarily between people of Pakistani origin and Black Caribbean heritage. The riots were sparked following rumours that a teenage black girl had allegedly been gang-raped by a group of Pakistani-heritage men in a beauty parlour. The unsubstantiated whispers were presented as fact by two pirate radio stations, contributing towards a major escalation. The riots were connected to two fatalities: 23-year-old Isaiah Young-Sam and teenager Aaron James. 

However, much like south-east London in the present, there were simmering tensions between Asian-origin business owners and local black residents in Birmingham. The acquisition of many local businesses by Asian-origin entrepreneurs had reportedly unsettled members of African-Caribbean communities, and this was exacerbated by complaints of mistreatment against Asian-heritage business owners by black customers. Those who ran the enterprises responded by accusing members of the African-Caribbean community of envy for their socioeconomic progress and ownership of assets. More serious allegations included theft, with one Pakistani-heritage shopkeeper referring to black people as “the lowest of the low”. 

Fast forward to September 2023 and virtually identical dynamics have taken root in south-east London — racial friction based on socioeconomic status and business ownership, a breakdown of shopkeeper-customer relations along ethnic lines, and a fundamental lack of neighbourhood policing enforcement to maintain public order. In places such as Peckham, the local black population comfortably outnumbers the Asian one, yet a significant number of small-to-medium-sized enterprises which cater to the former, wider demographic are owned by the latter. 

Social interactions which could optimistically be viewed as opportunities to build trust and mutual respect between groups have instead been rendered toxic by an intensifying competition of resources, ethnic prejudice, and growing business-customer resentment. This is worsened by the absence of a well-respected model of neighbourhood policing which covers areas with a high concentration of street shops. 

The latest events in Peckham highlight the utterly redundant nature of the “Bame” acronym, which tends to mask the reality that some of the sharpest social fault lines in modern Britain do not involve the white-British mainstream at all. A report published in August 2020 by Hope Not Hate found that twice as many so-called “Bame” respondents agreed (40%) than disagreed that there is more tension between Britain’s minority communities, when compared with those between white and non-white populations.

This was followed by a February 2021 HJS-ICM study which found that black British respondents were more likely to have an unfavourable view of Pakistani-, Bangladeshi-, and Indian-heritage people (11.2%, 11.1%, and 8.7% respectively) than white Britons (7.9%).

While apparently progressive politicians in the inner cities continue to repeat empty platitudes such as “diversity is our strength”, the failure to integrate ethnically diverse communities carries significant risks to public order. This threat is further complicated by ethnic differences in socio-economic status and the de facto decriminalisation of low-level crime in many urban areas. 

Social and economic tensions in Peckham between non-white communities does not constitute a recent phenomenon. Rather, these serve as yet another reminder of the complexities of modern Britain and the fact that diversity is by no means an unadulterated good. As it stands, far too many in positions of national and local leadership are sleeping at the wheel.


Dr Rakib Ehsan is a researcher specialising in British ethnic minority socio-political attitudes, with a particular focus on the effects of social integration and intergroup relations.

 

rakibehsan

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Mike Downing
Mike Downing
8 months ago

I always thought it ridiculous to lump any individuals in a group together, never mind various groups.

BAME as a group or community doesn’t exist any more than the fabled and ever expanding LGBTQWERTY community (believe me, I am supposed to belong to it).

But all the ‘ology’ academics, intersectionalists, leverage merchants, neo-Marxists and general grifters would be without their raison d’être n’est-ce pas ?

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Yes, lumping individuals into groups and attributing qualities such all being oppressed because of their supposed group identity used to be regarded as stereotyping and a foolish thing to do. It doesn’t take much intelligence to notice that just having more melanin in the skin giving a darker shade to it does not mean you are part of some group that has common beliefs and interests. To attribute commonality on the basis of skin colour is merely stereotyping. Stupidity is now held up being something desirable.

Max Price
Max Price
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

Especially when BAME is designated against the white mainstream. An absurdity indeed.
In the LBG+ community there is more historic crossover because the battles for rights were the same. In saying that anyone who has spent any time around the LBG communities knows there are massive differences between the Lesbian and Fag communities.

William Cameron
William Cameron
8 months ago
Reply to  Max Price

I can see LBG as a group with common interests. But it has been hijacked by other forces tacking on questionable initials using it as cover.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
8 months ago
Reply to  Max Price

Douglas Murray has a very funny rundown on how even lesbians and gays couldn’t get along and the stereotypical views they had of each other (which there was a lot of truth to.)
However, lesbians did a lot to help gay men during AIDS, and so the lesbian need for help with keeping the Beppa Ponces or is it Nippa Nonces (??) of this world in their own lane, meant I signed on with the LGB Alliance.
I don’t think anyone much noticed when the B joined the Ls and Gs, as they were already there to the extent they wanted to be, and the straight world will always be their power base.

With the T it was different as prior to 2000 they had been saying that their problem was a medical one, and not at all related to gay men having illegal sex in public, who were just pox-ridden criminals.

So the T arrival was unexpected, unsought, and occurred as gay men were simultaneously decoupling from LGBT organisations and social media.

There were some nasty interactions at the door as some tried to enter while others were leaving.

Virtually any gay men’s media that I interact with is now word-of-mouth and invitation-only, and mostly involved with facilitating sex.

If you said to a homosexual man that you’d been to a Stonewall meeting, people would think you were a very queer fish indeed and make jokes about 1988 calling and wanting its leg-warmers back.

Last edited 8 months ago by Dumetrius
Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
8 months ago
Reply to  Max Price

Was there some particular reason you were forced to use the term “Fag”?

It sounds like a deliberate provocation to me.

And then the Right wonder why they are being trounced in the culture war. A deliberate, almost nihilistic, slighting of potential allies might not be helping…..

Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

I doubt it is possible not to lump individuals in a group together. That’s just the inductive method – individuals share commonalities with other individuals, and those commonalities are frequent when grouped by various factors (sex, height, race, etc.).
The reality is that people of one race do in fact often have more in common with one another than they do with with people of other races. To be sure, their common humanity trumps their racial commonalities, but the latter are real, too.

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
8 months ago
Reply to  Mike Downing

In the dying days of Rome, whenever there was a shortage of bread the elite would employ provocateurs to go into the Forum and the wine shops to stir up a bit of tribal and ethnic conflict to distract the plebs from the true cause of their discontent. Now we write books and films and TV programmes and employ the staffs of entire universities to do the same thing and we call it Critical Theory and Identity Politics.
Nothing has changed but the branding.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  Hugh Bryant

True? Well then I’m not surprised. Divide and rule, yes? I’ve always suspected that wokeness is a tool the globalist plutocrat elites use to keep the plebs fighting each other, not them.

Lucius Shaun Tan
Lucius Shaun Tan
8 months ago

This is truly despicable. Business owners have an absolute right to defend their property. Race is not a factor. A crime is a crime.
It would appear certain communities need to take more personal responsibility. Stop turning everything into a racial matter, and stop crying wolf every time one of your own messes up.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago

Defend property by way of causing injury to others? Are you aware that the lady in question had been a customer for over 10 years, and the issue started owing to requests for a refund, for an item that she had purchased?

John Dellingby
John Dellingby
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Maybe she shouldn’t have started hitting him first?

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  John Dellingby

And you are aware of exactly what happen are you?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Are you?

Paul T
Paul T
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Have you bothered to watch the videos of her appalling behaviour?

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I’m certainly aware of that. What you omit to mention is that when the ‘lady’ was told that refunds are not shop policy she proceeded to steal various items as compensation. In what society is that considered good and reasonable behaviour? And she then became volatile, abusive, and ultimately violent when prevented from leaving the shop with her stolen items. All of which suggests entitlement.

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
8 months ago

Why euphemise what you’re referring to with ‘certain communities’. What you’re referring to is ‘black Caribbean’ communities. And you’d be right. I think we have a real problem with that ethnic group. They shout very loud, are extremely volatile, and are encouraged to feel hard-done-by by their originating country’s reparations demands and the slavery story. Meanwhile, other ethnic groups, including that of the author, accept their situation and work hard to make little businesses.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago

Race is absolutely a factor when there are so many black hair care shops with Asian owners in predominantly black neighbourhoods. You have no clue what you are talking about like others in these comments.

Kitty Deveraux
Kitty Deveraux
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Well, if black people can’t bear to be served by Asian people, a thoroughly despicable and racist sentiment, they are free to set up their own businesses. So, why haven’t they?

N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago

Tension (to use that journalistic euphemism) seems to be a growing problem between the black communities and everyone else. As the true price of black underachievement becomes clear to them resentment grows. To take responsibility for failure in socioeconomic progress would be too damaging to black self-esteem. Better to claim they could have been the greatest if only they hadn’t been cheated by more cunning and deceitful races.

Last edited 8 months ago by N Satori
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Sounds to me like you are overgeneralising a bit here. If you have a large and fairly poor community of one race/culture, served largely by shopkeepers largely of another race/culture, that would be in itself a cause of ‘friction’, without the need of the first group feeling racially inferior. There were similar situations with Jewish shopkeepers in various parts of Europe in the 1800’s, even in the fairly pogrom-free Denmark – and those were hardly caused by ‘Christian underachievement’.

N Satori
N Satori
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I might accuse you of undergeneralising – ducking behind complexity, raising the issue of historical parallels which tell a different story, all in order to blend the issue at hand into just another social problem we’ve all seen before.
However, I predict that black underachievement is problem which will only get worse as wider society accepts self-serving justifications without serious challenge. Currently this weakness fuels such activist issues as demands for reparations, positive discrimination, equity, tolerance of criminality, denigration of white people etc.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

N Satori, I must say, you are the epitome of a true racist.
What does black underachievement has to do with a blatant act of assault – which could have ended so much worst; really that man ought to be behind bars.
The mere fact that you seemingly have lobbied for help, through advancing the “black problem”, as a problem for “everyone else”, underpinned by black bitterness and underachievement (and an unwillingness to acknowledge said underachievement), speaks volumes in respect of your bigotry and ignorance.
You then go on to lump together, “reparations, positive discrimination, equity, tolerance of criminality, denigration of white people etc”, in an absolute farce of an argument (all distinct and complexed issues) – to which you have advanced no empirical evidence, whilst negating the fact that institutional racism is far from fallacy – and indeed has been proven as such repeatedly.
N Satori, as an Oxbridge educated black woman, and the embodiment of excellence in all forms, it saddens me to know that hate filled beings such as yourself permeate society, defecating hateful verbiage so as to spread your nasty racist disease.

William Cameron
William Cameron
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

“black” is not a class of people. The differences between Afro Caribbean Societies economic and social success and that of African success are considerable.

Kevin Jones
Kevin Jones
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The embodiment of excellence in all forms!!
You’d need a heart of stone not to laugh out loud.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
8 months ago
Reply to  Kevin Jones

I think that explains how we got where we are

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I don’t think you’re helping the group you are trying to help with the kind of language you use.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

N Satori, I must say, you are the epitome of a true racist.
What does black underachievement has to do with a blatant act of assault – which could have ended so much worst; really that man ought to be behind bars.
The mere fact that you seemingly have lobbied for help, through advancing the “black problem”, as a problem for “everyone else”, underpinned by black bitterness and underachievement (and an unwillingness to acknowledge said underachievement), speaks volumes in respect of your bigotry and ignorance.
You then go on to lump together, “reparations, positive discrimination, equity, tolerance of criminality, denigration of white people etc”, in an absolute farce of an argument (all distinct and complexed issues) – to which you have advanced no empirical evidence, whilst negating the fact that institutional racism is far from fallacy – and indeed has been proven as such repeatedly.
N Satori, as an Oxbridge educated black woman, and the embodiment of excellence in all forms, it saddens me to know that hate filled beings such as yourself permeate society, defecating hateful verbiage so as to spread your nasty racist disease!

Kevin Jones
Kevin Jones
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I wish I were the ‘embodiment of excellence in all forms’. I bow to your Excellency.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

The “embodiment of excellence in all forms”, eh? Not in writing, apparently.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

N Satori, I must say, you are the epitome of a true racist.
What does black underachievement have to do with a blatant act of assault – which could have ended so much worst; really that man ought to be behind bars.
The mere fact that you have seemingly lobbied for help, through advancing the “black problem”, as a problem for “everyone else”, underpinned by black bitterness and underachievement (and an unwillingness to acknowledge said underachievement), speaks volumes in respect of your bigotry and ignorance!
You then go on to lump together, “reparations, positive discrimination, equity, tolerance of criminality, denigration of white people etc”, in an absolute farce of an argument (all distinct and complexed issues) – to which you have advanced no empirical evidence, whilst negating the fact that institutional racism is far from fallacy – and indeed has been proven as such repeatedly.
N Satori, as an Oxbridge educated black woman, and the embodiment of excellence in all forms, it saddens me to know that hate filled beings such as yourself permeate society, defecating hateful verbiage so as to spread your nasty racist disease.

Last edited 8 months ago by UnHerd Reader
John Dellingby
John Dellingby
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I do think N Satori is generalising but probably not for the reasons you think. Having looked into racial inequalities in the UK in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder in 2020, I wanted to ascertain if Britain is a white supremacist society and/or do black people in Britain have worst outcomes? The first question, absolutely not. There is absolutely no evidence to support the claim that Britain is a white supremacist country. The only evidence I could find that white people in the UK achieve the highest outcomes is that they’re slightly less likely to have their benefits sanctioned than other ethnic groups. For the second question, yes there is an issue but it is more complicated than it first seems. Black households for example rank highest among those earning the least per week and pretty much bottom for highest earning. It’s also well known that in education for example, children and young people of black Afro-Caribbean backgrounds do worst (barring Roma and Traveller children, but that’s whole separate kettle of fish) along with children who are mixed white/black Afro-Caribbean ethnicity. Now, it’s not a particularly big gap, the average attainment in most subjects was 75-80%, but these two demographics were getting over 70%. However, their Black African peers were either average or above average in virtually every subject.
I hate to say it, but there looks like there is a cultural problem within our Afro-Caribbean demographic in this country that there just isn’t for pretty much every other. This is not in the power of the rest country to work around or accommodate, this has to be reviewed and dealt with from within. This is purely my own experience, but I have noticed when talking with people of this demographic, they are more likely to blame racism for when things don’t go their way (regardless of the situation) and they do seem to be conditioned from more or less day one to believe that society and the state are out to hinder them at every opportunity. Lo and behold, if you tell people that, they will believe it. This needs to end for a start.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  John Dellingby

John Dellingby, it appears that you are on a frolic of your very own… There is so much to unpack there, issues that have not been raised for instance “white supremacy”, to include unsubstantiated statistics; as one who is legally trained, I deal with facts.
You appear to be raising questions and advancing answers at the same time. In any event, your assertions reads incoherent. Further, I must say, it has nothing to do with the fact that a woman was choked by quite a large man – this was an assault in every sense of the criminal definition – yet here we are debating about attainment levels of blacks.

John Dellingby
John Dellingby
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Those “unsubstantiated statistics” as you call them, are freely available on the ONS’s website. So yeah, you’re not the only one who “deals in facts”. In regards my point about white supremacy, I was merely venturing my motivation to engage in this research back in 2020.
Well we can debate about whether the man was right to use the force that he did, she attacked him first after trying to steal some goods from his shop from what I’ve seen. It was members of the local black population that made it about race which is what the article and N Satori’s comment was about.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  John Dellingby

I could spend my night arguing with a lay person, in respect of a matter that is concerned with contract law, as opposed to appropriation of property.
I could debate information on the ONS website, or merely refer to my notes or remember the lessons that I have learnt from some of the world’s most brilliant minds at Oxbridge.
I could respond repeatedly to the ramblings of one far less learned than I, or I could use the next 30 mins to fill my mind with matters of substance… I choose the latter.
Night Johnny ole boy.

Andrew Morgan
Andrew Morgan
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Truly the ’embodiment of excellence in forms.’ Kindred spirit with Diane Abbott.

John Dellingby
John Dellingby
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

And inadvertently (or maybe not), you demonstrate exactly why race relations between much of the black population and everyone else have got worse over the last few years. You are utterly unreasonable and insufferable to the point of being a bore, but this is just the norm among race-baiters using their qualifications to shut down disagreements.

It is obvious from the way you conduct yourself that you are not interested in having a debate, you want to lecture and dominate people on this subject. Ironic really as I can easily imagine you subscribe to beliefs such as “my truth”, but it turns out that only yours matters and nobody else’s unless it happens to coincide with what you think.

Mary Page
Mary Page
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Or you could stop being patronising and superior. You’re not the only learned person with an Oxford degree on this planet.
Or you could spend the next thirty minutes reflecting on your own prejudices.
I think I might give more credibility to ONS statistics than your ‘notes’.

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I wonder, to what do you attribute the consistent negative reception all your posts receive? Racist motives I suspect, rather than the fact that you never offer any coherent or convincing arguments.

El Indio
El Indio
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Is Unherd Reader a parody account? I think it must be, so I’m going to join in!
My dearest UR, I took the joyful liberty of rewriting your message in a tone much more becoming of your superior intellect, unrivalled moral reasoning and unchallenged social status, for you were far too modest in the original version:
Ah, the conundrum I find myself ensnared within is truly a Sisyphean endeavor of the intellect. I could, if I were so inclined, squander the precious nocturnal hours in a futile exchange of words with an individual whose understanding of the labyrinthine complexities of contract law—as opposed to the nuanced legalities surrounding the appropriation of property—is, shall we say, rudimentary at best.
Alternatively, I could engage in a scholarly discourse, drawing upon the veritable treasure trove of statistical data available on the Office for National Statistics’ digital repository. Or, I could simply consult my meticulously curated compendium of notes, which are themselves the distilled essence of wisdom imparted unto me by the luminous minds that grace the hallowed halls of Oxbridge.
I am presented with the option to either perpetually counter the jejune musings of someone whose intellectual acumen is patently inferior to my own, or to allocate the forthcoming half-hour to the enrichment of my already expansive cognitive faculties with matters of genuine gravitas and import.
In the grand tapestry of life’s choices, I unreservedly elect to devote my energies to the latter, for it is the path that befits a scholar and a gentleman of my standing.
Farewell for the evening, Jonathan, my dear boy.

Steve Farrell
Steve Farrell
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Hi Shola

Sam Brown
Sam Brown
8 months ago
Reply to  John Dellingby

The observation with regard the caribbean demographic is mirrored in the USA whereas, for example, Nigerians tend to outperform white both here and there. Thomas Sowell has done much research in this area and it is cultural.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

It sounds like your career as a “race grifter” is well under way …

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I am sorry to say that you do not come across as very convincing. John Dellingby quotes a number of relevant facts to support his conclusions. He might be wrong, but the best way of showing that would be to calmly quote some relevant facts pointing in the opposite direction. We could then have learned something and possibly changed our opinions, or even worked up some respect for you that you could trade on in future discussions. After all, if his opinions are so obviously idiotic, it should not be hard to prove him wrong.

Instead you choose to underline the fact that you are ‘an Oxbridge educated black woman, and the embodiment of excellence in all forms’. First of all – that is not an argument. Being Oxbridge educated does not necessarily prevent you from being biased, a fool (or a traitor). Good on you for managing to go through there (if you did – we have no way of checking), but you are far from the only one. We can be pretty sure that there are other people in this discussion who know from personal experience that studying at Oxbridge does not automatically make you a paragon of wisdom.

Besides, very few people indeed can claim to be ‘the embodiment of excellence in all forms’‘ – and those who could generally shut up about it and let the facts speak for themselves. Making that kind of claim does not demonstrate a great degree of excellence as much as a remarkable (and possibly fragile) sense of self-aggrandisement. If you want to convince us, all I can say is that this is not the best way of going about it.

I hope that in the future you can come up with some more informative posts. A well-informed person with your views could make a really helpful contribution to the debate.

Last edited 8 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Good example of a white hand-wringer, no? Everything is whitey’s fault, always has been and always will be. There is no cure for this because it is a choice. Nothing will prevail against it until UnHeard him/herself gets tired of of white self-flagellation — but it feels so virtuous.

William Cameron
William Cameron
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

I dont think your case is improved by being posted three times.
The basic issue is was the the lady stealing ? And is a shop keeper justified is stopping people stealing ?

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

embodiment of excellence in all forms
Wow. I bow to your superior mind, and all your other superior abilities. I would, however, like to suggest that perhaps not “excellence in all forms” – making a coherent argument, for instance, seems to elude you.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

You make a sensible point on the general case of race relations and their politics. ‘Black underachievement’ (if you want to call it that) seems to be real, and it is relevant to look at the effects that has – and who is to blame for it. I just do not think it is the most relevant or illuminating explanation in this particular case.

Last edited 8 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
William Cameron
William Cameron
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I disagree . Black Africans are higher achievers than most Whites (not just poor ones).

Last edited 8 months ago by William Cameron
Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago

Good point. To be a bit more precise, I’d say that there are definitely black groups that are doing badly, for whatever reason, and that understandably feel hard done by. Also that a word-association test would probably find a lot of connections in people’s heads (of whatever race) between ‘blackness’ and various kinds of problems (ghettoes, racial strife, poor and mismanaged countries, and I suppose slavery) – which may well have some kind of effect. I would *not* say that people with high skin melanin are inherently less likely to be successful. Or that individual black people would do in any way less well than white people with comparable skills, background and cultural capital (if you could find them).

In fact I wonder whether Black Africans in the UK are a self-selected population of people with above-average mental, cultural, and economical resources, which would explain why they would do well compared to your average Briton.

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
8 months ago

Yes indeed, but not Black Caribbeans.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
8 months ago

Really? Africa should then be the model for the world.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
8 months ago

It’s true that the wealthy Africans, who I assume are well connected in the countries their families come from, do very well.
Among the East Africans, Sudanese seem to do very well, despite the awful situation of their country, but that may just be apparent to me because I’m surrounded by the diaspora of those who got out. [I have a lot of Sudanese mates.]
Sudan was prosperous in the 1950s – 70s and many Sudanese formed UK connections, enabling escape to Blighty once things there fell apart.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago

But *African* Blacks are the cream of the crop from Nigeria or wherever. The bell curves largely overlap — the very best/smartest Blacks are much smarter than the average white person. And they tend to come from successful, motivated families. And what do we see? They prosper, whitey’s supposed racism notwithstanding.

Phil Rees
Phil Rees
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

My reading suggests there is a higher proportion of one-parent children in Afro-Caribbean communities than every other ethnic group. Perhaps that is where the blame lies?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

We lost an interesting discussion to moderation, here, probably because of the downvotes to UnherdReader. Could we please get it back? 1) you can learn from these discussions. 2) How about trusting the community of readers to give appropriate answers even to unpopular posts? It is much more convincing to the unpopular poster (I should know 😉 ) than just being quashed by the moderators.

ADDED. OK, thanks for putting it back.

Last edited 8 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
Kirk Susong
Kirk Susong
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Content moderation on UnHerd feels like it’s stuck in the Internet Dark Ages. Which I guess is appropriate since the comments technology here is equally poor. There should be ways of ‘hiding’ replies, and of being notified of replies, and so forth. It would make genuine conversations much more possible.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  Kirk Susong

Yup, the tech here is very poor. Not even some easy way of responding to replies.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
8 months ago
Reply to  Kirk Susong

You used to be notified of replies.

Chipoko
Chipoko
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

Do not allow UR’s assertion that you are “the epitome of a true racist” deter you from continuing to contribute reasoned points to this and other Unherd discussions. I am appalled that people like UR use the ‘racist’ smear to destroy people with whom they disagree and thereby eliminate debate. I don’t think you are a racist and value your contributions.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago
Reply to  N Satori

What will change is that whereas whitey is mortified at the thought of blaming Blacks for their own failures, other races are not so demure. The Arabs have viewed Blacks as beasts of burden for at least a thousand years and slavery as their natural usage. Slavery was not even officially outlawed in some African/Muslim countries until well into the 20th century. You can buy slaves openly in Libya to this day.

Richard M
Richard M
8 months ago

The BAME acronym is more than redundant. It is and always was a massive fraud.

The entire concept of BAME is based on the spurious notion that simply not being white is enough to classify together a wide and disparate group of distinct ethnicities, origins, religions and cultures, all of whom are presumed to be disadvantaged compared to white people.

As if the experiences and opportunites of the daughters of Indian doctors are indistinguishable from the daughters of Pakistani textile workers or the sons of Nigerian bankers from the sons of West Indian bus drivers. And that they are all somehow more disadvantaged in comparison to the children of unemployed former miners in the North East.

William Cameron
William Cameron
8 months ago

I grew up in West Africa in the tail end of a colony. And I do not recognise the “colonisation” charactures from today’s young. My experience was peaceful, law abiding, safe, plenty of food, little corruption , and surprisingly little racism. Indeed what followed colonisation was terrible. Corruption, medical services and schooling was reduced and infrastructure collapsed and famine was experienced while “big Men” got very rich. There is no evidence that Black Rule has proved better for ordinary folk than UK colonisation. This attempt to blame Whiteness doesnt stand examination.

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
8 months ago

It’s mean to say it but I find the Caribbean culture a dead-end one, and I know enough people who are part of it.

It’s certainly never found an economic niche, as one of my mates from there continually points out.

Old ladies serving Festivals, patties, philouries and other heavy fried or meaty goods at a glacial pace, doesn’t seem to attract anyone much, even at the princely sum of 50p – £1 per item.

To those who point out sales of cannabis, I would say a £50 deal from 2006 was still the same £50 deal in 2020 – it seems to be one market entirely impervious to price inflation, and therefore probably way less lucrative than you’d think.

Last edited 8 months ago by Dumetrius
UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Dumetrius – you are truly quite a dead-end type of character.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Did you not go on a motorcycle holiday behind the iron curtain ( and Jeremy Corbyn ) after leaving university ?

Dumetrius
Dumetrius
8 months ago
Reply to  Alan Osband

Was he behind both the Iron Curtain and Jeremy Corbyn simultaneously ? I think riding a motorcycle around an allotment is poor form, myself.

Or was he on holiday with Jeremy Corbyn?

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
8 months ago
Reply to  Dumetrius

Crack cocaine is pretty lucrative .

William Cameron
William Cameron
8 months ago

It’s worth putting context onto the nonsense of BAME.
Obviously these are generalisations but study after study shows that The Most Successful academically and economically are Chinese and Indian- by some margin. Then Africans then White Professional/ Middle class then Pakistani then at the nearly bottom Afro Caribbean and at the bottom Poor Whites.
Black Africans are usually from high achieving two parent families. And they tend to be successful. Black Afro Caribbean are much less likely to have a stable two parent start in life and they do less well. There is no “black ” community- these groups are miles apart.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago

I believe you. Got some links, to save us the trouble of doing our own homework?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago

Interesting. Thanks.
One notes especially from the first link that Bangladeshi, Indian, and Asian students do better across sexes and economic status,. while White British and Black Caribbean do worse – and Pakistani, Black African, non-British White, and Other are in the middle. If White non-British and Black African do that much better than White British and Black Caribbean, it does not look like race/skin colour is the primary driver for educational differences.

Last edited 8 months ago by Rasmus Fogh
Right-Wing Hippie
Right-Wing Hippie
8 months ago

Rather, these serve as yet another reminder of the complexities of modern Britain and the fact that diversity is by no means an unadulterated good.
Isn’t diversity, by definition, an adulterated good? I mean, it’s ethnic separatists who want things to be unadulterated, right?

rob drummond
rob drummond
8 months ago

Congratulations Dr EHSAN
Who has been brave enough to spell out what most of the rest of the population has been thinking for many, many years.
The whole ‘BAME’ epithet is a complete joke as by the very fact it exists – is discriminatory! You can only be a ”member” of this ”club” if your skin is not white.
Asian owned business have thrived for decades, due to their hard work ethic and against adversity such as this and other similar episodes.
African-Asians/Asians revolutionised the UK high street – remember when the corner shop used to close half day on a wednesday? and promptly shut up shop at 5pm sharp? (never open sunday either).
Yes these business owners deserve praise and I for one quite understand why they want to protect their businesses from thieves and vagabonds.

Glyn R
Glyn R
8 months ago

Asians thrived in Uganda until their success became resented and seen as somehow exploiting Ugandans. Amin – who, let’s face it , was no friend to his own people and murdered some 300,000 of them – expelled the Asians and insisted that Britain take responsibility. These were hard working people who were left traumatised for a generation. Racism from Africans to Asians is as old as the hills just as racism from Asians towards Africans.
Why is it then that we only ever hear or teach of so-called white racism?

Dougie Undersub
Dougie Undersub
8 months ago

Generalising from my own observations, Britain is the least racist country in Europe and white people are the least racist group in Britain. Yet we still get all the flak.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
8 months ago

Those if my black colleagues I spoke to about the matter remained convince that 2 (not 1) black girls were attacked and the authorities covered it up.
To some extent what we saw in Peckham yesterday was the black community sending a coded message that they will defend their right to rob.
Diversity is a huge fault line running through this country

Paul T
Paul T
8 months ago

I go there to get my children hair products, durags and accessories – afro hair needs work – as well as shea butter. The staff follow me around and watch me every step of the way. I was a little affronted but I thought “well they probably have a lot of shoplifting”. I am always surprised at the checkout at how friendly they are when speaking with customers; even to white people like me.

Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago

The authorities have solved the problem of Black shoplifting in California by simply ignoring it. If a business can’t survive Black shoplifting they simply have to shut down or move — and that’s what they are doing.

Kat L
Kat L
8 months ago

Everyone ignores human nature; once parity is reached and there is no longer a majority culture different groups will vie for power.

William Cameron
William Cameron
8 months ago

Was the lady stealing stuff ? There seems to be some confusion on this point ?

Alison R Tyler
Alison R Tyler
8 months ago

Something very difficult about a conversation of this nature. Shows the futility of stereotyping plus identity politics, and then more stereotyping or generalisation, and we each come to it from a different, seemingly ring fenced perspective.
It makes me sad, but strangely hopeful as long as we keep talking and trying we will possibly arrive at a common good in which all can thrive. The Peckham example was shocking in so many ways and we each only know a part of it.

Christopher Barclay
Christopher Barclay
8 months ago

The 2005 riots in Birmingham started after reports that black girls had been caught shop-lifting black beauty products and had been given a choice of being reported to the police or providing sexual services. The reports suggested that they chose the latter option.

Andrew Horsman
Andrew Horsman
8 months ago

I’d challenge anyone peaceably to walk down Rye Lane of an evening, and see if they could discern ethnic tension. Sure there are incidents and there are hotheads, perhaps fired up by half-baked ideologies pushed by dominant and sub-cultural “elites” but most people – including, in fact, most of the hotheads and the ideologues – are at root decent folk who just want to make the best lives for themselves they can, and get on with others whatever they look or sound like. Peckham won’t stand for this sort of nonsense and it’s come through much worse.

UnHerd Reader
UnHerd Reader
8 months ago

Why are Asian people allowed to have a monopoly on black hair care, which is a billion pound industry? I remember when a black lady opened up a black hair care shop in Lewisham and they threatened to put her out of business. They rely on the black pound but don’t give a toss about the people. This is true in other European countries and America and relates to the wider Asian community including Korean, Chinese etc. There will always be tensions because it’s set up that way. When black people were not allowed business loans, other communities were. And it’s crazy how many guys are co-signing this woman getting choked out over some hair supplies when the police could have been called. The return policies are usually non existant and they don’t even know about the products they are selling and provide a horrible atmosphere in most places. I hope this sparks real change in black communities.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

Please go back under your bridge.

Tracy Hunter
Tracy Hunter
8 months ago
Reply to  UnHerd Reader

What if the guy who was trying to restrain the woman, after she zonked him in the head and tried to steal his goods, was black?

j watson
j watson
8 months ago

Never liked the BAME term and vast majority of colleagues and friends from diverse backgrounds don’t like it either.
As regards the ‘tensions’ – in fact more broadly the UK is remarkable for how little such tension occurs. When it does we hear about it because it’s rare. That’s not a reason for complacency, but some perspective also needed. 50+ years since the Rivers of Blood prediction, and… It’s utter racist b/s then and still is.
Some additional facts though that can certainly make a difference to different groups experience.
Black British – 8.9 times more likely than White to be stop and searched. Asian British 2.7 times. Mixed 3.3 times.
Something fundamental going on isn’t there. Now as a White person I think I need some humility in appreciating how it must feel to be pulled up and searched when I’m just going about my daily business and it be so evident my skin colour and background has generated that. The seething anger would build. It’s remarkable really not more anger about it. Why don’t we just listen a bit more as a good start to trying to further use good British common sense, fair play and tolerance to help with such issues rather than tut-tutting in glee from the sidelines.

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
8 months ago
Reply to  j watson

I’m very much on the side of listening, debating and not rushing to judgement but it has to be an honest debate. Quoting the 8.9 figure without the similar figure for how more likely a British black is to be found in possession of knife, or what the relative representations are in crime stats overall, is a lob sided debate.

Blacks are over represented in inner city estates. Denim jacketed and scruffy, I was stopped several times while driving my dads car in the seventies. Police stop by ‘likelihood.’ None of my relatively wealthy black friends have ever been stopped.

If the debate is to be intelligent it needs to acknowledge the complexity honestly, which means both sides taking some responsibility for their positions rather than using cherry picked stats to justify anger.

j watson
j watson
8 months ago
Reply to  Martin Bollis

Anecdotes shouldn’t really play a great role in understanding this issue, but as you used one – I’ve a number of Black work colleagues – professionals. All been stopped at some point. Why so different to a white middle class experience? And even if one’s justifies they might have grown up in an area with greater crime, what impact do we think that interaction has? As unfortunately we know there is a small, but consistent minority in Law enforcement who are prejudiced and abuse their power. I wonder how often you’ve sat down and chatted to a group too and just listened? The stories cannot all be ignored.
There is of course a question on what might be driving knife crime and the carrying of knives. Some will be out of fear. Some will it’s become a ‘positional/status good’. Some will be they have little chance of getting caught. Good advance community engagement about an increase in stop and search to target specific areas usually goes down well. Read up on how this met great success in sections of Kansas city in the US. Police showed the data and location on crime to community leaders and jointly agreed to target increase in stop and search in specific locations with good community support. Also of course cuts in Policing leaving some areas feeling more insecure going to result in protection behaviours.
Individuals have agency of course, but understanding the environment critical too.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
8 months ago
Reply to  j watson

Do you have the stats for which ethnic groups are more/less likely to have knives or drugs found during these searches ?

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Or some data controlling for location and socioeconomic status? White people living in South Cambridgeshire or Chelsea are likely to be fairly immune to stop-and-search.

j watson
j watson
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

And do the parties, clubs etc, in such areas have less drugs? One suspects only marginally so if at all. Given main reason for S&S recorded by the Police is suspicion of drug possession, not knife possession, it can certainly appear less than even handed.

j watson
j watson
8 months ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Interestingly the Police don’t provide that analysis

Zak Orn
Zak Orn
8 months ago
Reply to  j watson

Who do you propose we “listen to” jw? The upper middle class “BAME” activists on the TV who live in areas where they don’t have to worry about knife crime… or the “BAME” parents in the poorer parts of towns like Croydon where a teen is stabbed daily and who are largely supportive of stop and search because it puts their children at lower risk?
40% of knife crime victims are black (and most knife crime is intraracial), if you skew the stats, as you did, by taking the race across the entire country rather than the areas that stop/search and knife crime are primarily a problem, that means black people are 10x more likely to be victims of knife crime.

j watson
j watson
8 months ago
Reply to  Zak Orn

Re: listening – the latter more so for sure.
And yes the victim of crime info v informative too. The data was the Police’s own published data. You’ll appreciate I don’t run my own surveys. But your general point v much concur with.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago
Reply to  j watson

Good argument. Keep them coming.

Caradog Wiliams
Caradog Wiliams
8 months ago
Reply to  j watson

I could add that you’re more likely to be stopped and searched if you are male rather than female; or if you are young rather than old.
This could imply racism + sexism + reverse ageism. If you are trying to make an argument for your belief, that is.
Suppose non of the isms apply and the searches are just the police trying to do a good job, based on their findings over the years. Your suggestion implies that they should now focus on white old women for their searches. That would show the police in a better light.

j watson
j watson
8 months ago

You could imply that. I didn’t. Nor does your contortion make any real sense and you know that.
Some folks just don’t like that the reportable fact that Black Men get S&S’d far more than others and that an element of that is racial profiling.

Last edited 8 months ago by j watson
Ray Andrews
Ray Andrews
8 months ago

What we need is a computer that keeps track of police stops by Identity and maintains a quota. If a cop stops somebody he should first take a picture of them, which then goes to an AI which assigns Identity. If that Identity is over quota then the cop simply smiles and waves the person on irrespective of the gun in their belt or the blood on their hands.

Terry Raby
Terry Raby
8 months ago
Reply to  j watson

ONS publishes crime statistics by ethnicity; from memory, the homicide rate for blacks is 9x the population rate. (And the victims are usually black also). So stop and search is about protecting black citizens.

j watson
j watson
8 months ago
Reply to  Terry Raby

You are assuming the recorded reason for the S&S was suspicion of weapons being carried where your justification might have more validity. But the reason recorded only for c20% of the S&S. And that assumes the Police actually record correctly as clearly they have a vested interest to say it’s for weapons as arguably the most defendable reason.
Suspicion of carrying drugs the reason in 60% of S&S. So this takes us into the discussion about whether white folks do less drugs and hence S&S much less. Highly debatable.

Terry Raby
Terry Raby
8 months ago
Reply to  j watson

I have (tried) to post a link to relevant statistics. Actually commenting on the statistics causes comments to be blocked.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
8 months ago
Reply to  Terry Raby

Because the “conversations about race” we’ve been told we must all have aren’t allowed.