Is the average UnHerd reader out in the world poisoning the neighbours on one side, while threatening to kick down the fence of the others, and set their house on fire, with the children inside?
Following your analogy, he might gain one unwilling Unherd reader but he’d make enemies of the rest, who’ll ally themselves to oppose him.
I don’t understand why Putin has been given any credit for intelligence on this. He’s painted himself into a corner and if he does invade the world will punish him forever, like the Serbs have been, once we see Kyiv being bombed like Sarajevo.
If he was going to push Ukraine around he should have waited until his new pipeline was opened this year, and then forced NATO and Ukraine to the negotiating table, without moving a single soldier.
Katharine Eyre
2 years ago
Orban is trying to dance at the European, Russian and Chinese weddings all at once. History will show whether Hungary ends up with all the cake, or none.
He’s top of the pops in Europe in the Covid deaths front.
David Yetter
2 years ago
The West continued to treat Russia as the enemy when the Soviet Union collapsed and none of its successor states continued the project of exporting an inhumane and unworkable social and economic system by force of arms — opposition to which project was the real reason for NATO’s existence, not opposition to Russia qua Russia.
The West’s failure to genuinely befriend post-Soviet Russia is a diplomatic blunder of similar type to the maltreatment of Germany in the Treaty of Versailles. Only fools are surprised then those they treat as enemies become their enemies.
Of course it’s not just the West that wants to continue identifying Soviet with Russian. The Ukrainians blame Russia for the Holodomor, even though Stalin was a Georgian and the forced collectivization of agriculture took a murderous toll on the Russian peasantry as well. The Latvians hate Russia for Soviet rule, even though Stalin was a Georgian, Khrushchev was a Ukrainian and Lenin used Latvian riflemen as his shock troops during the Russian Civil War. And Putin wants to claim anything he can argue was good about the Soviet era for Russia….
In 1991, the US Government and others had a choice: support the development of a democratic, mixed economy Russia or plunder the country. They chose to plunder the country, hoping that it would be too impoverished to ever rise out of the ruins.
Over the last 7 centuries Russia has been one of the most successful of imperial nations. The Russian empire has existed under Tsars, under Communism and under Putin. Russia’s neighbours are quite correct to view Putin’s manoeuvres as an attempt to return the empire to his historical limits.
Rubbish, The West started to run down its armed forces, although the US bumped theirs up following 9/11.
But once $ started to roll in from oil and gas, Putin chose to spend it on armaments rather than improve the quality of life of the people, and is now tempted to put them to use to distract the latter from their situation.
john zac
2 years ago
We’re still stuck on coal and you’re ushering in the end of fossil fuels, even though they have the largest LNG reserves?
“We’re still stuck on coal”?
I don’t think so! Have you been asleep for 10 years?
I fervently wish we were. And even Hilary Clinton admitted that GasProm & Vlad the Bad were funnelling cash into the “Frack Off Protestors”.
Proof that Putin is far more intelligent than all Western leaders screwed together, is the fact that he still has an energy industry fit for purpose.
Noel Chiappa
2 years ago
“The Baltic states and Poland have also doubled down on their .. anti-Russia tendencies.“ Gee, I wonder why? I am reminded of the old joke about the Polish soldier with only one bullet, and a Russian and a German coming at him. Noel
The German soldier would be carrying a broomstick so it wouldn’t take long to decide to shoot the Russian.
Rasmus Fogh
2 years ago
Sure, if we gave Russia what it wanted – presumably returning Eastern Europe to Russian control as client states – Putin would not need to use force to obtain it. But who, especially in Eastern Europe, would accept that? A better question would be what kind of better outcome we could obtain by a different strategy.
We handed over the Baltic states, much of Poland and Hungary to be incorporated into the USSR. Central and Eastern Europe were invaded by Soviet troops, who remained in situ till the new Communist system was in place, gulags, massacres, and all. Everything that could be looted was looted. I think client states is an odd description of this situation.The idea that Russia will walk into Europe again as dar as Vienna is so absurd as hardly to be worth discussing. Hint. Let’s compare Turkey and the Ottoman Empire with Russia and the USSR. Putin is closer to Ataturk than to Lenin .
Well, I do not think Russia is going to restart the Warsaw pact or collectivise agriculture. I do think they would like their near abroad to be under Russian dominance, with military and foreign policy subject to Russian veto, with economies integrated in Russias, and with governments that can guarantee that dangerous democratic ideas are suppressed, lest they contaminate Russian politics. If I was a Pole or a Latvian I would not find that state of affairs particularly attractive. What kind of system do you envisage?
Who handed it over, and when, and when were they incorporated into the USSR? In 1945, a colossal Russian force occupied eastern Europe, and didn’t let go. Although the US and new UK government were naive in 1945, they didn’t have much choice.
Well Hitler hoped we might ally with Germany towards the end, but no, as he was far worse than the Russians and we weren’t that bothered about losing Eastern Europe.
David Kingsworthy
2 years ago
“Putin may not have felt compelled to use the threat of force to re-establish a waning regional influence.”
Yes of course, the Russians have no choice but to use force, or the threat of force, to be influential. Never mind using diplomacy or economic enticements — military force is the only way!
Terence Fitch
2 years ago
4th November 1956. He’s no Imre Nagy. Make of that what you will.
It is unlikely that isolating, lecturing and threatening any UnHerd reader would produce positive results. Why would Putin be any different?
Is the average UnHerd reader out in the world poisoning the neighbours on one side, while threatening to kick down the fence of the others, and set their house on fire, with the children inside?
Following your analogy, he might gain one unwilling Unherd reader but he’d make enemies of the rest, who’ll ally themselves to oppose him.
I don’t understand why Putin has been given any credit for intelligence on this. He’s painted himself into a corner and if he does invade the world will punish him forever, like the Serbs have been, once we see Kyiv being bombed like Sarajevo.
If he was going to push Ukraine around he should have waited until his new pipeline was opened this year, and then forced NATO and Ukraine to the negotiating table, without moving a single soldier.
Orban is trying to dance at the European, Russian and Chinese weddings all at once. History will show whether Hungary ends up with all the cake, or none.
It won’t be the first time a minor power plays both sides.
He’s top of the pops in Europe in the Covid deaths front.
The West continued to treat Russia as the enemy when the Soviet Union collapsed and none of its successor states continued the project of exporting an inhumane and unworkable social and economic system by force of arms — opposition to which project was the real reason for NATO’s existence, not opposition to Russia qua Russia.
The West’s failure to genuinely befriend post-Soviet Russia is a diplomatic blunder of similar type to the maltreatment of Germany in the Treaty of Versailles. Only fools are surprised then those they treat as enemies become their enemies.
Of course it’s not just the West that wants to continue identifying Soviet with Russian. The Ukrainians blame Russia for the Holodomor, even though Stalin was a Georgian and the forced collectivization of agriculture took a murderous toll on the Russian peasantry as well. The Latvians hate Russia for Soviet rule, even though Stalin was a Georgian, Khrushchev was a Ukrainian and Lenin used Latvian riflemen as his shock troops during the Russian Civil War. And Putin wants to claim anything he can argue was good about the Soviet era for Russia….
“The Ukrainians blame Russia for the Holodomor, even though Stalin was a Georgian“
It wasn’t an army of Georgians which Stalin used.
Noel
In 1991, the US Government and others had a choice: support the development of a democratic, mixed economy Russia or plunder the country. They chose to plunder the country, hoping that it would be too impoverished to ever rise out of the ruins.
Over the last 7 centuries Russia has been one of the most successful of imperial nations. The Russian empire has existed under Tsars, under Communism and under Putin. Russia’s neighbours are quite correct to view Putin’s manoeuvres as an attempt to return the empire to his historical limits.
You are either ignorant, or trying to rewrite history for your own reasons; it was Russians who plundered Russia.
Rubbish, The West started to run down its armed forces, although the US bumped theirs up following 9/11.
But once $ started to roll in from oil and gas, Putin chose to spend it on armaments rather than improve the quality of life of the people, and is now tempted to put them to use to distract the latter from their situation.
We’re still stuck on coal and you’re ushering in the end of fossil fuels, even though they have the largest LNG reserves?
“We’re still stuck on coal”?
I don’t think so! Have you been asleep for 10 years?
I fervently wish we were. And even Hilary Clinton admitted that GasProm & Vlad the Bad were funnelling cash into the “Frack Off Protestors”.
Proof that Putin is far more intelligent than all Western leaders screwed together, is the fact that he still has an energy industry fit for purpose.
“The Baltic states and Poland have also doubled down on their .. anti-Russia tendencies.“
Gee, I wonder why?
I am reminded of the old joke about the Polish soldier with only one bullet, and a Russian and a German coming at him.
Noel
The German soldier would be carrying a broomstick so it wouldn’t take long to decide to shoot the Russian.
Sure, if we gave Russia what it wanted – presumably returning Eastern Europe to Russian control as client states – Putin would not need to use force to obtain it. But who, especially in Eastern Europe, would accept that? A better question would be what kind of better outcome we could obtain by a different strategy.
We handed over the Baltic states, much of Poland and Hungary to be incorporated into the USSR. Central and Eastern Europe were invaded by Soviet troops, who remained in situ till the new Communist system was in place, gulags, massacres, and all. Everything that could be looted was looted. I think client states is an odd description of this situation.The idea that Russia will walk into Europe again as dar as Vienna is so absurd as hardly to be worth discussing. Hint. Let’s compare Turkey and the Ottoman Empire with Russia and the USSR. Putin is closer to Ataturk than to Lenin .
Well, I do not think Russia is going to restart the Warsaw pact or collectivise agriculture. I do think they would like their near abroad to be under Russian dominance, with military and foreign policy subject to Russian veto, with economies integrated in Russias, and with governments that can guarantee that dangerous democratic ideas are suppressed, lest they contaminate Russian politics. If I was a Pole or a Latvian I would not find that state of affairs particularly attractive. What kind of system do you envisage?
Who handed it over, and when, and when were they incorporated into the USSR? In 1945, a colossal Russian force occupied eastern Europe, and didn’t let go. Although the US and new UK government were naive in 1945, they didn’t have much choice.
Well Hitler hoped we might ally with Germany towards the end, but no, as he was far worse than the Russians and we weren’t that bothered about losing Eastern Europe.
“Putin may not have felt compelled to use the threat of force to re-establish a waning regional influence.”
Yes of course, the Russians have no choice but to use force, or the threat of force, to be influential. Never mind using diplomacy or economic enticements — military force is the only way!
4th November 1956. He’s no Imre Nagy. Make of that what you will.
He is Matyas Rakosi. And a nyuszika.