November 13, 2023 - 7:00am
The pro-Palestine protest in central London this weekend was very nearly cancelled before it began. Falling on Armistice Day, some supporters of Israel dubbed it a “hate march” of Hamas sympathisers; others insisted it was merely a protest in favour of peace. Once it was clear that the march would go ahead, and with record attendance expected, UnHerd‘s Freddie Sayers and Florence Read decided to see what the reality was on the ground.
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SubscribeListening and watching people denying there’s any evidence for what happened on 7 October is so dispiriting. Hamas filmed themselves conducting their “operation” and then bragging to camera about how many Israelis they’d slaughtered. Those videos, shown to journalists and corroborated, are simply being ignored by those filled with hatred. I’m not sure which is worse: such ignorance or those who’re aware of what Hamas did and support it anyway.
Great piece of reportage by Unherd.
It is The Derangement. The Mania. A deeply troubling pyscho- social and cultural madness embedded in the minds of the dumb uneducated young and scary numbers evidently of young Muslims. I have heard a white women on radio denying the truth of the Pogrom! Denial. Already! These are the fruits of the Progressive/Identitarian Cult propogated by the British State and well masked and protected by the State Media. So now what? Business as usual of course..to our utter shame. We are trapped like Soviets on The System.
I would imagine it is more common amongst the educated than the uneducated.
“I have heard a white women on radio ”
Utter garbage. At least try to make your lies kind of plausible.
And here he is again, how comforting
I think it’s a SHE actually!
Perhaps even a ‘woman with a willy’, but certainly educationally sub normal.
Even for you this is embarrassing.
Delete your account and skulk away in shame.
Yes some clarity on the source would be appreciated, rather than just a description of their sex and skin tone, followed by an enumeration of amorphous entities with conspiratorial titles, like ‘the State Media.’ Who is that now? The BBC? (who fewer and fewer people listen to). I presume it’s not the Telegraph, Evening Standard, Spectator, Sun or Daily Mail, with all of whom this government has a far cosier relationship.
Luv me Telegruff, luv me Evenin’ Stannerd, luv me Spectay’ah, luv me Sun & Mail. Simple as.
I’ve heard that too.
You are a simpleton.
Are you suggesting it’s impossible to know whether the woman was white without seeing her ? Where there is something wrong with the comparison with ww2 is that there isn’t any real existential threat to Israel from Hamas. It was a terrible assault but was only possible due to a hubristic reliance on the wall alone to defend Israel .
There have always been people who deny the Holocaust ever happened, despite overwhelming evidence (personal recollection of survivors and liberators, photographs, Concentration Camp ruins, documentation, legal testimony).
The current generation of these people seized on 7 October as their latest version for their ‘special’ truth.
Oh the Holocaust again? Who of those interviewed denied the Holocaust? What about the current problem of genocide denial?
There are plenty of people who are denying the current ethnic cleansing despite the evidence of the own eyes and ears while it is actually happening! So, 80 years after the original holocaust that’s hardly a surprise is it?
This really troubles me: one group of people only appears to be concerned with those who are questioning what actually happened to Israelis on 7th October, whilst denying that anything morally wrong is happening to Gaza at the hands of Israel. So they are doing the exact same thing they are accusing others of: excusing and turning a blind eye to human suffering. All those who are suffering are human beings. Excusing any of it as collateral damage, the ends justifying the means, oh well that’s war for you, is what I am finding astonishing.
Given the very bizarre response of the IDF on 7th October, together with the role Israel itself played in the creation of Hamas, and the very convenient excuse it now has to use its stockpile of arms (thank you USA) to obliterate Gaza, these questions deserve some attention, unless one is so sure one knows who is good and who is bad that one no longer needs to listen to any other point of view. How can anyone be so sure that it allows them to become heartless towards any people who represent “the other side” for them?
And how can so many people not see that both sides are being played, and all of us along with them, or refuse to do so simply on the grounds that this is somehow to display an unacceptable weakness?
Less and less survivors, sadly.
You thought they were dumb and uneducated to be outraged by genocide – by a child dying in Gaza every 10 minutes – by the occupation of land against international law? According to the UN, Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory is unlawful due to its permanence and the Israeli government’s de facto annexation policies. As an educated person, you’re ok with that, are you?
It’s odd that you’re plain statement of basic, undeniable facts meets with any disapproval (snd zero approval except for mine)? It speaks volumes for Unheard readers..
Israel completely evacuated Gaza in 2005
Then proceeded to blockade it for the next 17 years, creating the world’s largest open-air prison. Or as others might call it: ‘Concentration Camp’.
Then Israel proceeded to blockade Gaza for the next 17 years, creating the world’s largest open-air prison. Or as others might call it: ‘Concentration Camp’.
Right, and Auschwitz had hotels and resorts along a beach, and billboards and cosmetics stores on site (pictures by all sides). Not saying there are not very overcrowded and poor areas e.g. refugee camps, but not worse that many other 3rd world countries, e.g. Bangladesh. You do realize no country wants the Palestinians, especially Egypt and Jordan, because they cannot be trusted (they attempted to overthrow the Jordanian Govt. and they push for insurrection in Egypt). Open air prison my ass, but their movements are restricted due to their own militancy.
Gaza is not occupied by Israel. The west bank which Israel won when half the Arab world attacked it, was offered back to The PLA more than once, but they prefer to suicide bomb Israel and turned all offers down
I thought it was an excellent and well balanced report and in line with UH’s aim to promote reasonable debate. There seems to be a gap currently between the UH editorial material and the comments section. The former is starting from a neutral open minded position, which would usually garner support in the comments section, but 90%+ of the latter is currently passionate, entirely pro Israeli and intolerant of nuance let alone different viewpoints. I prefer Freddie and Flo’s more detached and un-deranged perspective.
Spot on: open-mindedness is so ‘yesterday’ these days.. ‘gotta get with the newspeak or it’ll be room 101 for us both!
The big difference is that most of the Soviets knew most of what was going on but were simply afraid to say it out loud (and rightly so).
The Israeli government has itself reduced the final Oct 7th death toll from 1400 to 1200, but where is the official investigation? Where are these stories of rapes and beheaded babies coming from? Not Hamas. Also extraordinary that you show no apparent interest in the extreme reaction of the Israelis in Gaza and the slaughter of many more innocents. Furthermore, according to international law, an oppressed people has a right to retaliate, and after 75 years of occupation and mistreatment including imprisonment without trial, that certainly applies to the Palestinians.
There are videos of the massacre taken by Hamas. I’ve seen them, and they are horrific.
Indeed they are, but there is also a lot of misinformation circulating and, incredibly, no investigation into the incursion has been launched. What I do find extraordinary is so many seem not to view the response of Israel as completely grotesque and disproportionate. It is collective punishment with the excuse that this will destroy Hamas – which it very likely won’t. It also puts hostages at risk. Why do you suppose the international reaction now is primarily one of outrage? Israel (like the US when it bombed Iraq after 9/11) has lost all the sympathy people felt for the victims of October 7th. And they have no viable end goal in view, unless it is ethnic cleansing.
What do you suggest would be an appropriate Israeli reaction to the events of 7 October? If it is either to stay within their borders and give in to Hamas demands for the release of the hostages, or to stop the blockade of Gaza, what would prevent Hamas from repeating their successful operation as soon as they could, to get even further gains?
The gross overreaction by the IDF, in contravention of several international laws absolutely GUARANTEES a dozen more October 7th atrocities.
Here’s an experiment you might try: break into your neighbour’s house, steal all his possessions, murder his wife, torture his children and then hand him a weapon while you turn your back. You may find he will behave in a way that is not in accordance with the old Marquis of Queensbury rules!
Were you so exercised about the elimination of ISIS ( with much loss iV cilia life eg in Mosul)? Or the response to 9/11 by the international community and the total war against Al Qaeda after 9/11?
Methinks your selective outrage regarding Israel eliminating Hamas after an attack that is equivalent to 40x that if 9/11 is redolent with antiSemitism
Sounds pretty much like what Hamas just did to Israel.
well perhaps this may help you Claire. It seems that there may be several contributors who wish to help you see things differently. Try this please;
· Mother-of-three Sofie Berzon Mackie was at home at Be’eri kibbutz on October 7
“I want peace but after this sadistic, perverted attack I don’t know if it’s possible. What they did was beyond words, beyond Nazis even. The most twisted, demonic creatures of mythology don’t come close to what they did.
‘They cut open pregnant women and killed babies still attached. They tortured babies and beheaded children. They tied people up then burned them alive. Even the Nazis wanted to kill quickly – these men took their time torturing children.
‘They are the most violent organisation in the history of mankind, and this cannot be our future. They cannot be in the world we give our children.
‘I understand the legitimate call of the Palestinian people for independence and a good life – I want that for them, too – but what these monsters did was a crime against humanity, nothing to do with statehood.’
This survivor managed to hid with her children for 14 hrs while these barbaric acts were being committed in her Kibbutz
True.. carried out by a few dozen wicked, extremist terrorists on a few hundred civilians – half [48%] being military according to Israeli and so legitimate targets according to international law.
There is also the mass slaughter carried out by thousands of IDF state terrorists on over 11,000 innocent Palestinian civilians including over 5,000 children – totally contrary to international law.
I mention the 2nd part in case you might be interested in balance, though I seriously doubt it.
Arabs don’t kill Jews because of land or an ‘occupation’. They do it because the sky fairy tells them to. For 1000+ plus years the Mizrahi Jews suffered their random butchery in one pogrom after another. Now the shoe is on the other foot.
The majority of attacks, programs and the holocaust itself were carried out by white, so-called Christians while Muslim Arabs and Jews lived in harmony within Ottoman ruled Palestine for hundreds of years. Then the white, so-called Christian British came to Pakestine..
So Muslim colonialism ( ottoman rule ) is cool but not British colonialism . Very Irish tinged form of wokery you have there
You seem to be in denial here. With respect to Gaza, Gaza has been under complete Hamas control since 2005 when the Israelis left. Gaza was not occupied territory! It is Palestinian territory. At least get your facts right. And despite the billions of dollars pouring into Gaza in the form of AID, none of that was used by Hamas for the betterment of the people there. Rather those funds were used for one purpose and one purpose only: to build a terror network of underground tunnels and rocket launchers and command centers conveniently located under schools, hospitals and mosques. Even one entrance was discovered under child’s bed. Under those circumstances, where Hamas is using the Gazan population as shields and is preventing them from escaping to the south, there is only one source to blame for the deaths in Gaza, and that is Hamas.
Wrong. According to international law Israeli IS in effective occupation of Gaza because it illegally controls all elements of Gazan life, bombing it regularly, denying it adequate food, water and power and totally blockading it by land, sea and air.
According to your sick logic, if one madman from say Norwich murders my wife I’m within my rights to bomb Norwich killing many of its citizens, destroy its hospital, several homes, a church and a school or two because I know the killer is in Norwich!
… and the nutjobs who voted Hamas in.
Again, a plain statement of basic facts meets with so much disapproval! Scary stuff on UH.
there are very important points here which you conveniently miss, particularly as Hamas have a proven track record of lying and deceit.
It seems that the figure of dead and Hostages taken is probably around the original total of 1400 -1500
In the chaos, names of the missing had to be collected and collated. But were they dead or were they hostages or were they just still missing. A figure has to be honestly calculated.
It is made less easy as Muslims have a very unpleasant habit of decimating and burning bodies regardless of the fact that they were babies children and old people among the dead.
When it comes to dead naked bodies in a morgue it is impossible to differentiate a muslim from a jew (such an opposite in real life don’t you think)
So for all the reasons above it is perfectly reasonable to re calculate to a lower figure as the work continues.
Very different to the Hamas figures which are probably as mythical as the 72 virgins.
Compared with what the Allies did to Germany, Italy and Japan in World War II, the IDF’s action in Gaza is quite a light touch. In World War II the Allies needed to destroy Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan (those three started the war) and in 2023 Israel needs to destroy Hamas (who started the current war). Quite simple really.
The inly people “filled with hate” are the few hundred Hamas terrorists and 85% of Israeli zionists.urdering children in their thousands is a clue here!
You sure about that . Only a fool would deny Muslim religious texts are choc -a-bloc with disparagement and hatred of non Muslims , especially Jews . The few hundred terrorists probably are regarded as freedom fighters in Gaza by most people . Hatred of the state of Israel is founded on religious and ethnic hatred
You cite the supposed harmony of life of Jews and Arabs in Middle East . Up to a point maybe but Jews were always regarded as inferior and had to pay a special tax . Furthermore there is extreme bitterness towards the west in Muslim countries because they overtook Muslim countries in power and technology and economic development . The European Jews who founded the state of Israel were /are seen as proxies for America . They are seen as having all the freedoms and lifestyles that muslims both hate and at the same time envy .
Agreed. very good reporting as far as it goes but, it really is important to put this into perspective.
This is NOT ABOUT LAND.
It is about the deep unremitting hatred of The Jews,and thus Israel, by Islam and its desire for their elimination.
This should come as no surprise for the imams everywhere state it publicly
Something has to happen here. A mob descended on Michael Gove and he had to be protected by police. Also, Jewish families had to have a police escort from a synagogue. Jews are not safe walking the streets of London. There needs to be a response.
I guess you missed the parts where there was actual violence – all perpetrated by the cowardly thugs that the far right loves.
The hypocrisy is shocking but not surprising…
Nobody loves the Neo Nazi morons but equally nobody loves the intimidatory tactics of the pro Palestine marchers.
What was intimidating about a protest calling for a ceasefire and an end to Israeli occupation of Gaza?
Israel was not occupying Gaza since it withdraw entirely in 2005. It is the actions of Hamas on Oct 7th that have forced them to come back. Once Hamas is no longer a threat to Israel there will be a ceasefire and an end to the “occupation”. So why aren’t the protesters calling for Hamas to hand themselves over for an international tribunal for the crimes against humanity they committed on 7 Oct (they are not war crimes as there was no war)? That would bring about what you claim they want and save IDF and Gaza civilian and indeed Hamas lives.
Israel withdrew in 2005 only to imprison and isolate more than 2 million Palestinians. In June 2007, the Israeli occupation imposed an airtight land, sea and air blockade on Gaza’s airspace and territorial waters, as well as two of the three border crossing points. The blockade has turned the 362 square kilometre coastal enclave into an open-air prison. It is a form of unlawful collective punishment that keeps more than half (53%) the population in poverty, with young people in particular facing a staggering 75% unemployment rate. As of March ’22 food insecurity was affecting almost two-thirds (64%) of the population. Meanwhile Israel holds some 4,450 Palestinians – including 160 children – in prisons, without trial. Hamas (encouraged and supported by Israel to undermine the PLO) are fighting to resist and protest treatment that has been condemned by all humanitarian agencies and international law. Seems unlikely they will surrender, and who can blame them?
Why was that blockade imposed? Think hard. Try to engage all brain cells…
To impose an illegal collective punishment regime on the whole 2.2m population of Gaza.
Apart from the the first and last mentions of Israel in your description, substitute the word Hamas and you will be getting nearer the truth.
Strange that the Arab brothers don’t open their borders to welcome the Palestinians? Refugees for 75 years? Take one look at Europe after WWII. 16 Million people were on the move and refugees, 2 million killed on the the way to the West, European borders were redrawn after the war and people integrated. What about the millions of Ukrainian refugees? Neighbouring countries opened their borders. Why is it so different in the Arab World?
Many already do, numpty. Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. 60-70% of Gazans are already refugees because their families were forced to leave their lands at gunpoint by Israelis in 1948. Why should Israel be allowed to expel these Palestinians from their land in Gaza? So the Zionist State can steal it once and for all?
Thanks for calling me numpty. I love when people try to discuss a point using insults…
In your reply you still talk about “registered Palestine refugees”. How many generations are you a “registered refugee”? My family were refugees after the war. They were expelled from their land and had to leave everything behind. Am I and my children still “registered refugees”? None of the European refugees live in refugee camps after 78 years, they got on with their lives and integrated in other countries.
Now das funny! Netanyahu is a named war criminal, ie head of a government that has,according to the UN committed several war crimes.. Hamas, according to international law are within their rights to resist.. but of course their crimes on Oct 7 were NOT permitted. Know this however.. the majority of those who died on Oct 7 were military (legitimate targets) and the majority of civilians killed on Oct 7 were killed by IDF tank fire and helicopter strafing ala the Hannibal directive (per Jewish survivors!).
I guarantee to you that, if Germany had successfully invaded GB, there would be no end of British “terrorists” fighting the cruel murderous German regime, and using terrorist tactics too.. except of course you’d call them heroic freedom fighters.
Link to prove those ‘facts’, please.
Do you not find it a little strange how those kibbutzes and that music festical were apparently chock full of ‘legitimate targets’ – while at the same time being so lightly defended that no one could oppose the Hamas attack? Do you ever find it hard to force your mind into believing your own line?
Clearly peace is a dreadful concept! ..and bombing innocent children is laudable. You gotta get with the new program.. brown, Muslim lives do NOT matter. Israelis are the chosen people of God. Us goys are just so much garbage.
The underlying evil intent
Guess you didn’t read the Fraser article. The Community Security Trust reported the highest number of antisemitic incidents since they were formed in 1984 — a 531% increase from the same month last year.
But I’m sure it’s a bunch of MAGA henchmen from the US. There’s something seriously wrong with you.
I read the news, sonny, not pathetic apologies for racist scumbags.
The aggression was all on the part of the cosplay fascists and their enablers, clowns like Braverman and the others who see pot belied lager swilling louts cause all the trouble but somehow choose to blame the peaceful protestors.
who did they exactly attack, you holocaust denier Hamas simp?
What? Where’s the holocaust denial? And why are you so aggressive?
I think he may be a little tired of your inflexible and in some cases wholly incorrect assertions maybe?
It is so useful to see what kind of mindsets you (and I) are up against.. informative to know how some of your countrymen think isn’t it? Although “think” is probably not the right term is it?
You sound just right for the kind of person you appear to be. I must congratulate you on the honesty of your vile comment!
Too many pizzas, mate. All those carbs are making you unhinged. Grossly fat, too, I’ll bet.
Oh I get it – if you condemn vicious thugs dismembering women and children – and filming it themselves as they did it – then, because they happen to be brown-skinned, you are racist. Right.
Who is responsible for the 531% increase in antisemitic incidents? This should be interesting.
I wonder how many of those (reported?) incidents were: “He looked at me funny and I being a snowflake, got scared”.. and similar? I wonder too ifthose who were seriously targeted are outspoken Israeli supporters including the Zionist ethnic cleansing.. If such a person was my neighbour yes, I too would have some to say to him/her that might be (entitely wrongly) termed antisemitic. This site has plenty of anti Irish slurs but we don’t ever assume them to be anti Catholic do we? Yet the % of Irish that are Catholic is much higher than the % of Jews in Israel!
And so much disapproval of your statement of plain, basic, honest, undisputed facts. I wonder why that is?
300,000 (min) on a peaceful march: maybe 0.001% of them behaving badly. The extreme right-wing opposition march 300? maybe 90% behaving appallingly? You’d have to be very wilfully blind not to be able to join the dots on that one.. still, no shortage of the wilfully blind on UH is there?
CS is really just a troll. The posts are so obvious and clumsy.
You omitted the word “reported” before the word incidents. Was that an error or are you easily convinced?
Ya. Let’s just wave away 500% increase. Damn Jews are too sensitive anyway, what with their overreaction to 1,400 women and children being slaughtered.
There is at least an argument to be made that maybe these are frivolous incidents, but then you seem to think it’s okay anyway if they are Zionists.
Antisemitism in Britain is reprehensible, regardless of what’s happening somewhere else. Same with Islamophobia in Britain. But of course we’re not seeing a 500% increase in those incidents. Guess they’re not snowflakes.
How about finding out which part of London those criminals are from (maybe Brixton?) and then getting the RAF to bomb Brixton, killing many of its citizens, destroying its hospital and school.. that’ll learn ’em!
Hate march… is there any debate really? Hamas supporters and sympathisers with some useful idiots.
The only hate came from the right wing fascists but you seem to have missed that, eh, dearie?
So people carrying placards with swastikas entwined with the star of David and cosplaying Hamas were just out to make polite conversation?
Very true, but despite that (maybe because of that?) your remark is very unpopular! Odd isn’t it.. in GB like? Not in some autocratic, censored banana republic! ..or is that what GB is becoming!
What’s truly despicable is that CS makes his juvenile comments, while hate incidents against Jews are skyrocketing. Of course he knows this isn’t coming from far right radicals, yet he’s happy to troll in such a vile manner anyway.
Nobody is ever going to accuse you of being broadminded are they?
The correct response to atrocities is to sing ‘Don’t Look Back In Anger’
Now that the Israelis have decided not to sing that song but instead go after terrorists who are stopping fuel reaching their own hospitals, everybody has got angry with them.
Westerners who have no understanding of the utter contempt toward Israel bred religiously into much of the Middle East are serving here as an obvious contrast to the reality on display in the religious protesters themselves. These marches are about the practical destruction of Israel, pure and simple. The rest is a theoretical footnote. We seem to have learned nothing from the terrors of the last century.
Almost of those terrors were perpetrated by Muslims.. the vast majority, resulting in many, many millions of deaths, were perpetrated by so-called Christians, German, Russian, British and American.. Under Ottoman rule us Palestine Jews, Muslims and Christsns lived fir hundreds of years in relative harmony..
Flo Read concludes by saying most people there seemed very reasonable and not hateful of Israelis, but from the number of interviewees who suggested Israel is illegitimate, it is very hard for me to share that conclusion, unless they didn’t show a fair sample. I’d really like some proper polling data on this lot and what they hope to achieve through a ceasefire. For me it is about wanting a peace that serves both sides (an end to the blockade and collective punishment of Gaza and a reversal of illegal Israeli expansion in the West Bank and for Israelis to no longer be attacked by terrorists). The peace movement shouldn’t be pro-Palestine it should be pro-people – finding a way of freeing people on both sides by fighting Hamas with mercy and help for the Gazan people (i.e. removing the cause of Hamas which seems to largely be Israeli aggression). And also having solidarity with those Israelis who want Netanyahu (who has caused them so much trouble, especially the families of the October attacks) to go.
The Israelis have stated there can be a ceasefire when Hamas release the children and old women that they took hostage.
Aren’t people allowed to rescue hostages being held by terrorists?
My question is that up against a sadistic death cult like Hamas that does not care about its people, why would bombing Gaza as hard as possible make them likelier to give up the hostages? This war is not what many of the families of the hostages want (I wish more of those cretins on the pro-Palestine march could realise that in fact their aims can have a common cause with Israelis, a desire for whose peace and prosperity the peace brigade failed to mention)
If Hamas is a ‘sadistic death cult’, do you think you can achieve peace while leaving them in place? If not, what is your prescription for getting rid of them, if it is not possible to attack them where they live?
Israel isn’t bothering to rescue the hostages. That’s why their families are marching on the streets of Tel Aviv. Hamas has offered hostages for ceasefire deals. Israel ignores them.
Regrettably it is far from sure that Hamas would stop fighting if only Israel would let them have a free and independent state in Gaza and the west bank. My guess would be that the Palestinians collectively, would still want to fight to get all of their land back, and that Hamas would exploit their improved military position to make more effective atacks on Israel. I might be wrong, but would you gamble the life of your children on the restraint and forbearance of Hamas – or of the people who voted them in?
You’re very eloquent and reasonable as always RF, but my hunch is that it’s worth suing for peace and seeing what can be achieved and again I don’t see why a ceasefire is only a net gain for Hamas. I still find it very hard to see 10,000 (20,000 by one IDF estimate) Gazans being killed already for this war (and all this reassurance that it’s like what Britain had to do to get rid of the Nazis also doesn’t seem to wash because a) the debate on whether all those German civilian deaths were necessary and b) because Germany was immediately adopted as a friend after WWII without proper de-Nazification because of the Soviet threat, and a similar approach would not be taken towards the Gazans among whom Hamas or something worse will breed quicker than ever after this).
I don’t agree with Elon Musk on many things but I think he made some thoughtful comments in the link below, arguing for ‘conspicuous acts of kindness’ from Israel (sounds ridiculous at first, but think about it: are you more likely to join Hamas if you see Israel helping your countrymen or if Israel kills your child?):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2myO-slp7w
‘For every member of Hamas you killed, how many did you create?’
‘An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.’ etc
Ah. According to my two Palestinian friends, both of whom hate Hamas far more than they dislike Israel, people are more likely to join Hamas if they see Israel helping your countrymen. It is shameful beyond endurance for many Palestinian Muslims to accept any aid from Jews and the resentment they feel over this fuels the desire to kill them all. Accepting aid from Jews is collaborating with the eternal enemy.
…. (was cut off) … The people who would be moved by Israeli acts of kindness, according to my friends wouldn’t be joining Hamas in the first place. (Unless they live where Hamas controls all the jobs, alas. Such pragmatic reasons do not make a firm supporter, of course.)
Seems like you have better information sources than the rest of us. Do your friends say anything about what it might take (if anything would) for Palestinians to accept that what they had by then achieved was good enough, and stop those who wanted to fight a war for more?
The ones who can be convinced, like them, are already convinced, they say. Absolutely nothing they can do will ever restrain those who want to fight a war more than anything else. Trying to do so just gets those who try killed. Remember, these are people who think it is holy to kill people who disagree with them. Reasoning with them does not work.
That’s a new dimension to the conflict I hadn’t considered, although ever since watching the Railway Children as a child I’ve known that charity can be seen as humiliating (I make the same argument to those who think that charity is necessarily morally superior to help from the state – for the giver yes, for the receiver, not so obviously). Let me make an amendment then and say acts of ‘collaboration.’
It is worth interrogating those fatality figures. Quite apart from the fact that they are supplied by Hamas, not exactly a reliable organisation… even if we take them seriously….Hamas supposedly has an army of 40 000 (it has grown massively since the 1990s when it was 10 000). We know that 1500 of those involved in the incursion on Oct 7 were then killed by Israelis in Israel. And it can only be assumed that many Hamas fighters have been killed since the IDF entered Gaza – indeed the IDF speak of “several thousands”…Hamas has declined to identify a single military death in their figures! Hamas also counts as “a child” anyone under the age of 22! And at least several hundred deaths in Gaza have resulted from Gazan rockets (still bombarding Israel) falling short, as in the first hospital case… Of course, civilian deaths are tragic, but it is worth asking why so many people are essentially so eager to swallow the Hamas stats and ask no sensible questions about them…
Well I said ‘20,000 by one IDF estimate’ So talk all you want about the stats being exagerrated in Gaza, but Israel seems to think they’re even higher.. In any case, the density of Gaza, the war footage and the genocidal rhetoric of the military leaders I think makes it pretty difficult to dispute that thousands are dying at a fast rate
Correction… fight to get what they think is their land…!
There seems to be a significant majority of Palestinians who support a two-state solution following the 1967 borders. There’s little question that Israel has committed, and is still committing, a war crime by settling in Palestinian lands.
The Israelis got out of Gaza, but they have not gotten out of the West Bank, and in fact have increased their settlements and some in government have put forth plans to annex “Judea” and “Samaria”. That clearly contributed to this new burst of terrorism.
Stealing land and committing horrific terrorist acts are not morally equivalent. They are morally different. But one side’s war crimes does not excuse terrorism on the other, and vice versa.
Israel’s attacks on civilians in Gaza should be condemned. There has been no voting in Gaza for decades. Gazans didn’t vote for terrorism any more than Israelis did.
What about Hamas? They have agency. They choose not to build bomb shelters, they chose the 0ct. 7 massacre, they choose not to free hostages, they choose to use their own citizens as human shields, they choose to steal humanitarian aid and not deliver it to their citizens. Where does this fit it?
‘. There has been no voting in Gaza for decades. ‘
There has been plenty of voting in Israel, and Palestinians living in Israel get elected to the Knesset.
Palestinians in Gaza live under a dictatorship.
I suspect a majority of Serbs and Croatians did not support starting a civil war, but were still generally sympahetic with the idea that they should have control of their own nation with all the lands that rightly belonged to it. That, and a more aggressive minority, was enough. Undeniably Israel’s settlements make the situation worse – the Palestinaian situation is so dire that they can hardly be expected to settle down to anything like the status quo. But even if a majority of Palestinians support a two-state solution – for now – that does not mean that they would not support a group fighting on afterwards to get them what they really want. Which is the right of return to their old lands and a muslim-dominated state. Remember that the land-for-peace deal failed because Arafat insisted on the right of return (his people would accept no less) and because the Palestinian side was not satisfied with what Israel would let them have. Those tensions would still be there the second time, with addtional hatred on top. After all, pre1967 Israel was undergoing continuous raids and terror attacks with no sign of the general Palestinian population trying to stop them. Why would that stop, as long as they have the hope they might one day succeed?
For the rest, Israel is not ‘attacking civilians’ in Gaza. Israel is attacking Hamas, just like the US-dominated aliance was atacking ISIS, not the inhabitanst of Mosul. Granted, the distinction probably does not matter to the thousands of dead children – or their families – but when you fight in a densely populated city (with bunkers under the hospitals) those deaths are unavoidable. For all the horror, Israel is trying to limit the number of dead children it takes to achieve their war aims, not maximise it. Unlike Hamas.
The tragic thing we know from the Balkans, where the estimate was that only 8% of people there initially wanted a war (though I have grave doubts about the polls that gave that estimate) is that if you want a war, the best thing you can do to get your own side to support you is to start committing atrocities. Then the consequences of losing the war will be terrible for your side. Better win it! If your enemies go and commit atrocities of their own, all the better for keeping your side committed to the cause.
We really need a way to ditch collectivist identity politics. People need to be able to publicly renounce those members of their own ethnic group who do evil, most definitely including those who want a civil war because of the opportunity it gives them to get away with killing those they have been yearning to kill all along.
Until we get this worked out the extreme elements will continue to define the group, to the detriment of the group, or indeed us all.
You are so right – but I see very little reason for optimism. In fact I can hardly name a single democratic multi-ethnic state without major problems, which suggests that the concept is unstable. A democracy requires a demos, a ‘we’ who can share government. India and China are suppressing minorities, Malaysia is heavily divided and Malay-dominated, Yugoslavia fell apart, Iraq went into sectarian fighting as soon as Saddam was removed. The only exceptions I can think of are Swittzerland (but they are fellow mountain farmers and heavily federalised, even if they speak different languages), and the US (but being an all-immigrant nation and having a share in the world’s major superpower does make it easier).
Singapore.
Kenya.
I don’t know what I think about Nigeria, but they do seem to be trying this, at any rate, after the failed Igbo succession.
Does India count?
When the USA was doing a good job of things, it wasn’t trying to be ‘multi-cultural’. Instead it was assimulationist — the famous American ‘melting pot’. People got to keep enough of the culture from ‘the old world’, that they could still enjoy the traditional food, music, and dances, and maybe speak the old language a bit, but outside of that you were expected to learn how to be an American — and your children would learn this even if you were too old for such changes. It worked, too. Second generation Americans vacationing in the ancestral homeland kept being told by the natives how ‘American’ they were.
At the last election (1 year ago) here in Sweden, there was widespread consensus that multiculturalism was a mistake, and that Sweden must do even more to assimulate its immigrants. (Which, given that we already have free language lessons, will have to be more focused on culture.) We will see how long this lasts. But one interesting thing I saw at that time was when I went and visited the Göteborg office of Sverigedemokraterna — the anti-immigration party, always called in the press ‘right-wing’. There were many immigrants working there! Which surprised me. And then they said — we will vote for anybody who will put the dangerous violent criminals in jail so they will stop bombing the neighbourhood! (It’s a real problem. See https://petersweden.substack.com/p/swedish-bombing-crisis) The parties on the left want us to have ethnic-based solidarity with evil criminals, and we want to have solidarity with the other law abiding Swedish citizens, whatever their country of origin!
Turns out they were hungry to learn ‘how to be more Swedish’, and thought the Social Democrats had truly failed them by insisting that they had no need to change themselves.
This left me feeling very optimistic, and while Sweden, too has had pro-Palestine protests, the one in Göteborg wasn’t nearly as large as the one we had over stopping the idiotic public transit plan called Västlänken. (which went ahead anyway) https://bransch.trafikverket.se/en/startpage/projects/Railway-construction-projects/The-West-Link-ProjectVastlanken/
Well, maybe.
Singapore
Nigeria after the failed Igbo succession?
Kenya?
I had a longer piece but it’s been waiting in moderation a while …
For once I fully agree with you!!
“all of THEIR land back” you say? How ridiculous of the Palestinians to want their land back, eh?
On the contrary – it makes perfect sense that they would want that. Just like it makes perfect sense that the current situation of the Palestinians is so dire that you could not possibly expect them to settle for it. And just like it makes prefect sense that the Israelis want to stay and be safe in a land of their own, and not be either sent back into exile or live in perpetual fear of another attack. That is why this is a tragedy.
You are right Claire. Its ridiculous. The Palestinians have been offered the land in 1937, 1948, 1993, 2000 and 2008 and they declined each time preferring suicide bombing and the like.
It is noble and well meaning to want a ceasefire and peace – but not at any cost.
The Israelis have learned that previous ceasefires have allowed HAMAS to regroup, re-arm, and choose when to break the ceasefire (again).
So is the illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank legitimate according to you?
Where have I said that? All illegal occupations should be reversed is what I said no?
Occupied? Yes Gaza is occupied by Palestinians and their Hamas leaders whom they elected in 2006 after Hamas assassinated them.
Every man woman and child of Israel living in Gaza left 18 years ago.
Now that I won’t agree with. If Gaza is occupied by Palestinians you’re saying they should all go? That’s river to the sea stuff
Liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea, remember Khaybar, all mean extermination of the Jews.
You didn’t watch the UnHerd interview with Tzipi Hotovely?
Well done . Great reporting.
Wish you had found some ” right wing thugs”to talk to. ( I mean white blokes in tracksuits not the Moslem ones … the term can be confusing).
Those in the pub or shouting obscenities in other on- line videos did not look very approachable.So serve them right for not getting a chance to get their views across. I’m hope they had their reasons for turning up other than just having a bit of a rumpus.No one ever seems to ask them .Their views can’t be any more extreme than some of the pro-Palestinian interviewees you found.
The right wing thugs are bigger idiots than the Hamas marchers. They certainly serve as a useful foil for the regime media. Now the BBC can lead its broadcast with a gang of right wing thugs brutalizing blah blah blah. In other news, there was a mostly peaceful protest of Hamas supporters. Of course, this might be exactly what both extremes they want.
Useless idiots instead of useful idiots.
Well said
Protestors clashed with police in an attempt to make London safe for Jewish people?
Jeremy Corbyn used to boast that that was what his family did!
‘“My mother stood in Cable Street alongside the Jewish people and the Irish people,” “We all have a duty to oppose any kind of racism wherever it raises its head.”’
When did fighting antisemitism stop being a badge of pride on the Left?
Congratulations! This was superb reporting from you both.
Yes, I think this was as balanced an account as can be given of this type of event.
Thanks for giving up your Sunday afternoon, and for calling them POLICEMEN, rather than the dreaded word Officers or to lapse into the vernacular ‘ Ooooorfficers’.
What about the police officers who are women? Does that enrage you so much that you can’t even acknowledge them? Sounds on brand for you. I bet black police officers absolutely make your blood boil.
How did you feel about your little Tommy Robinson brown shirts attacking the police yesterday and throwing bottles at the Cenotaph ceremony? Made you proud to be British no doubt.
Pay attention!
Policewomen were not under discussion.
Maybe make yourself a nice cup of milky tea and then have a bit of a lie down?
If policemen must be men, are women also men?
Do the Israelis have the right to self defence ? This question is still being asked – and I say ‘yes’ – but after briefing of critics who analysed the Oct 7th violence (notably Efrat Fenigson) – the self defence was notably absent on that day – the day when meaningful self defence could have stopped the ball rolling. Prevention as ever … is better than the cure.
Yes and therein lies the additional blame of Netanyahu and a reason why his popularity is still plumetting in Israel
Netanyahu wasn’t responsible for what Palestinians call the ‘Nakba’. Bibi inherited the current mess from his progressive Zionist compatriots. Unless he ethnically cleanses Gaza he won’t come close to achieving what Jewish leftwingers managed in the late 1940s.
Praying in the streets is flag-planting, claiming the streets as one’s territory.
Good grief how depressing. Such hatred. Such lack of understanding and compassion for anything other than their simplistic slogans.
Really good reporting. Thank you Unherd.
It’s complex, with multiple motivations, considerable ignorance on all sides, plenty of fuel for those who want to sow division and crucially no obvious solutions. The March of course will make little to no difference to what happens in the middle east but can make a difference to what happens here.
How so? How do the marches make a difference in Britain?
How we think about and view the issues, whether there is or isn’t violent response provoked, what we think about multi-culturalism, what anti-semitism means and how it’s felt, how much we understand the depth of ignorance and manipulation when we confront such issues, what is free speech, it’s boundaries, what is the right to protest and it’s boundaries, what levers do the Police have and how they operate their judgments and of course as already borne out today, whether certain Ministers keep their jobs etc
There is a long list of things this has prompted us to ponder isn’t there that relate to the UK even if the marches makes not the slightest difference to the strategy of IDF
Fair enough. Well said.
Do you mean fuel anti-semitism?
“can make a difference to what happens here”
if you mean keeping jews locked up in their homes scared as hell, yeah it can make a difference.
You’re right, it will make a difference here. A lot more people have suddenly woken up to the threat posed by very large numbers of people in our country who are working assiduously to, in time, put Sharia law in place for all of us.
When do you envisage us all being under Sharia law DU?
Why was the man who said that the innocent shouldn’t be attacked asked what he thought about the attack on Israeli families by Hamas?
One of the commenters is really dragging this thing down. Until recently the comments section was one of the real pleasures of UnHerd. Why don’t we all just ignore him for a while? “Send him to Coventry”. (Did I use that correctly? And why Coventry? It’s so hard using someone else’s language.) Give him the brush; shun him. I’m pretty sure “he’s” a robot, anyway.
If the opportunity presents itself in future, I’d like to hear what the protesters think should be done about Hamas. Are they a legitimate force for good? Should their methods be approved? Should we consider the assertion of Hamas leadership that civilian deaths in Gaza are justified if Hamas benefits an acceptable stance? Should we be concerned about funds intended to improve the lives of the civilian population being diverted to pay for bombs and luxury lifestyles?
Why is my comment still awaiting approval? I linked to a description of the thousand strong Jewish bloc on the protest for balance, given that your reporting suggested that the march was strongly religious and Muslim in character. Anti Zionist Jewish and or pro peace Jewish protesters made (and always make) a significant voice on pro Palestinian protests. Is this a point you are not happy to feature? If so, why?
“Why would you conceal your identity if not for those [violent] purposes?”
Well gosh Florence, that is a mystery. Half a million stop and searches on black and brown people under counter-terror powers without a single prosecution; two decades of profiling under the Prevent strategy; the police increasingly using facial recognition technology at protests and the Home Secretary has branded the entire demonstration a “hate march”. Why on Earth would anyone decide to conceal their identity?
And I was surprised by the assessment that the march was only 5% white. I’d have said that white faces were probably the minority but not as small a minority as that – nothing like. But, granted, I was marching and perhaps didn’t see as many of the crowd as Freddie and Florence as they moved around the route. .
I too was surprised by the assertion that the march was only 5% white. Given the estimated attendance of 300,000 and the demographics, that would mean an unusually high percentage of the non white population was on this march – which would imply a really serious situation facing the UK. I am slightly reassured that you saw something different.
Excellent points. I thought the same when I heard Flo’s comments.
“You can’t beat a nation that knows death is not the end.”
I wonder if they’ve really thought that through. They think it means their commitment to their cause inspires a ferocity and dedication, evidenced through ‘martyrdom,’ that makes them unbeatable.
But if it is true, it also means, ‘Kill ’em all, let God sort ’em out.’
Disappointing that the special report bore so little resemblance to what we experienced at the march. I wonder if Freddie and Flo went to a different one. Anyway the report came across as biased, and driven by a particular agenda. It resembled something that the tabloids might have produced, which is a shame. UnHerd has sunk in my estimation (which I am sure won’t bother it in the slightest), possibly pandering to an element of its readership rather than presenting a balanced view of what the majority of the peace march actually consisted of. Crude and poor journalism…..
Very good reporting. I believe that my view is nearer Freddie’s than Flo’s
We are asking too much of the police to expect them to understand the underlying situation. It is not their business to understand or even to take notice of these more difficult political and religious movements which result in such marches.
It is their job to allow marches of protest and support to take place and police them to peaceful ends. Even if, as in these cases, they are unwittingly aiding serious problems for the UK further down the line.
In this regard yesterday, although there lurked behind the Pro Palestine March an evil guiding intent for a significant number of the marchers, the March itself apart from those obvious HAMAS banners and headbands (HAMAS being a proscribed terrorist organisation) and some evil atrocious placards, the obvious one being the swastika inside a Star of David, (Hoorah she has been identified) passed off peacefully enough.
The few thousand people who turned up to “protect the cenotaph” in their words were nowhere near as nasty and thuggish as the couple of 100 at the front who did behave in that way, from what I can see on studying the videos carefully,. Although in fairness to them they behaved physically the way I felt cerebrally last night. They are extremely angry that our country is being held to ransom by a minority of people who wish to do it harm.
Many of the free Palestine marchers are ordinary decent citizens of this country who are appalled at the death of so many innocent people particularly children and mothers in Gaza. (I hope that they have not brushed aside the Cruellest Evil that Hamas brought to Israel on Oct 7).
But they are accompanied by many Muslims who, by the Quran’s definition, are anti-Semitic. They are followed by immigrants, legal and illegal, first generation or, not born here, from many different countries and cultures which we have not been able to assimilate into this country because of the numbers involved.
Then come the rabid left who have a natural hatred of Israel as it is now and who possess Iranenvy (admiration of what others have and they can’t, so ban the others from it). They are accompanied by the usual suspects, the activists, who like nothing better than a dust up between the people and authority.
Most dangerous of all are those Muslims who are openly and publicly committed to the destruction of the western world in favour of Islamic and Sharia rule. These marches are their bread and butter, and they will spread on them anything, whether they believe it or not, which will produce results in favour of Islam.
My apologies to any group that I have omitted, and of course the Young who are in that blissful state when they have no awareness of responsibility for their actions and may or may not have been taught different agendas to the historical facts.
So one can understand the veracity of Suella Braverman’s remarks last week, sacked or no, that she is probably supported by a great silent majority of the people.
Given there were several hundred thousand people this report was a snapshot which reproduced the assumptions the reporters set out from. Here’s another account of the day from the Jewish bloc on this march. https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/11th-november-demonstration-for-gaza-a-superb-event/
thinking that fringe group do represent “the Jewish bloc” is not only disingenuous but deranged.
“a superb event” of Jew hatred and calls for genocide, the way lefty academics like it
Thanks for this.
And no thanks for this: https://unherd.com/2023/11/dont-be-fooled-by-the-march-for-peace/
Why did you put this article, by a Fraser, a supporter of genocide, at the top, rather than your critical, but balanced, analysis of the huge pro-Palestine, pro-peace march in London?
The only issues with violence were with the fascist thugs who attacked the police, disrupted the ceremonies at the Cenotaph and tried to attack the peaceful marchers.
Funny how the far right loons, including the Home Secretary, seemed to have missed that altogether. Fortunately the Met didn’t and these cowardly scumbags are cooling their heels in the cells. No doubt the hideous Braverman will be sticking up for them.
This weekend really didn’t play out the way you guys were praying for, did it?
Don’t feed the troll.
As someone who actually attended the National March for Palestine on 11th November, I appreciate the effort that Flo and Freddie put into making this report. However, I still find some elements concerning.
Particularly, I find it surprising (maybe I shouldn’t, but still…) that when Freddie in particular talks about seeing Muslims publicly praying on the march, he strangely interprets this as some sort of failure of multi-culturalism. In fact is it the exact opposite. It is simple evidence that Britain is in fact ‘multi-cultural’. People are British, but also Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, or whatever. All are still British.
The whole point of Britain being ‘multi’-‘cultural’ is that it has many cultures, and not just one. Surely the fact that British Muslims now feel that they can publicly perform their religious observances is a sign of the success of multi-cultural Britain? Multi-culturalism is not just ‘multi-coloured-ism’.
Freddie seems to think that British Muslims retaining their own distinct culture and religion to be some kind of problem. No, Freddie, multi-culturalism does not require the disappearance of difference, it is not assimilation. By definition, it cannot be mono-cultural.
Are the opinions of British Muslims not British? What better example of the continued survival of ‘British values’ than the fact that hundreds of thousands of Muslim citizens feel that it is their right to protest against a grave injustice, even in the teeth of slander and misrepresentation by the British press and politicians? Isn’t that a clear demonstration of the success of multi-culturalism?
Is it any surprise that British Muslims easily empathise with fellow Muslim civilians being slaughtered in their thousands by Israel, thousands of miles away in the Middle East?
Do not British Jews easily empathise with the fellow Jewish civilians brutally murdered in their hundreds by Hamas in the attack of 7th October, thousands of miles away in the Middle East?
It is illustrative of the common humanity of British Muslims calling for a Ceasefire in Gaza and for support for the Palestinian people, that they recognise that there Christian Palestinians who are also being slaughtered. Whilst they readily support their Muslim brothers and sisters, they of course support all Palestinians of any faith or none, as victims of Israel’s bombing and decades of Israeli oppression. For them, it is not primarily a religious issue, it is a question of opposition to oppression and wholesale slaughter.
It seems to me that those attending Saturday’s march quite justifiably are rightly reluctant to speak to any media representatives, from whatever media outfit, including yourselves.
For weeks people who have been outraged at the slaughter of civilian Palestinian men, women, and many, many children, have been told that their protest marches opposing this slaughter are ‘hate marches’ full of ‘Hamas supporters’.
For the full week before this march, the British media of all brands and varieties has been obsessed with the allegation that to hold a march calling for a Ceasefire on Armistice Day is somehow ‘disrespectful’.
But what better day to call for an end to a war, than the date that the first ‘War to end all wars’ ended by the signing of a Ceasefire agreement?
Whilst your report is more honest than most, it’s whole focus was on looking for any evidence that you could find that mighty possibly be interpreted as being ‘hateful’. Let’s be honest, that’s the reason you were actually there, because of that mainstream narrative. You were not there just to report what was happening, or what most people there were calling for.
I appreciate, of course, that it would have been impossible to obtain a properly representative sample of interviews from a march of around one million people. That is why I appreciate Flo’s accurate observation that those attending were in general not at all hateful. I personally witnessed no ‘hatefulness’ at all. Nor did I see anyone supporting Hamas.
But why did you miss the fact that there was also a significant Jewish contingent, just as strongly opposed to the continuing murder of Palestinian civilians by the military might of Israel?
Do the views of those Jews not count?
Simon.
Palestinian Christians are being eliminated from Gaza, just like Jews were eliminated from Morocco, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia. How many Palestinian Christians are left?
It is of course true that some Jews are opposed on religious grounds to the present day Israel, because they want to see David’s kingdom restored, and not some ersatz state.
Not Morocco mate… Jews are very well assimilated and integrated here. We have synagogues and loads of Jewish tourists. The Jews who left Morocco went voluntarily to live in Israel and many own property and businesses here still.
If they are so well assimilated though it is surprising that of the 265,000 Jews who were there in 1948 there are less than 2000 today?
There are (or at least were until the bombing started) still three Christian Churches in Gaza, some of the oldest Churches in the world. The Al Ahli Hospital is owned and run by the Palestinian Anglican Diocese of Jerusalem, as well.
Plus there’s plenty of Jews the world over who support the cause of Palestinian freedom, and oppose the Israeli racist colonial Apartheid state.
Yes, but not all prayer is permitted: https://www.ncregister.com/cna/woman-arrested-for-silent-prayer-at-uk-abortion-clinics-gets-police-apology
Israel is far more multicultural than Gaza.
18% of Israel’s population is Muslim. The percentage of Christians in Gaza is about 0.1%.
According to a survey of Muslims in Britain reported in the press recently, 81% of the respondents said that their Muslim identity took priority over their British identity.
But … ‘All are still British.’
Sure about that?
Just like a Catholics’ religious identity takes priority over their Britishness. Or a Jew’s religious identity takes priority over their Britishness. That’s what a religious identity is. Doesn’t make any single one any less British. So, yes, I’m absolutely certain about that.
Thank you for your excellent and thoughtful comment, which for some reason I am unable to ‘like’