X Close

Calls for violence in the trans debate only come from one side

Sarah Jane Baker addresses a protest outside Downing Street in January. Credit: Getty

July 10, 2023 - 11:30am

On Saturday, a convicted criminal got up in front of a cheering crowd in central London and publicly incited violence against women. “If you see a terf, punch them in the fucking face,” he declared to whoops of approval from his audience at Hyde Park Corner. (Terf is a slur used against feminists who support women’s rights.)

The trans activist, who now call himself Sarah Jane Baker, served thirty years in prison for a series of violent offences including kidnapping, torture and attempted murder. Since he was released in 2019, he has been a regular attendee of trans events, including a demonstration outside Parliament in January when the UK Government blocked the SNP’s gender reform bill. On that occasion, he was photographed with three Labour MPs who later claimed not to know who he was. 

After Baker called for assaults on women at Saturday’s London Trans Pride event, the organisers defended him. They insisted they did not condone violence, but added that “Sarah and many others in our community hold a lot of rage and anger and they have the right to express that anger through their words.” 

This goes to the heart of the matter. Time and time again, we are told that transgender people are the most oppressed and marginalised in society, and that their rage is justified. Politicians, including the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who published a grovelling message of support before the march, claim that trans people don’t have full human rights — but are unable to specify which rights they are being denied. (I asked Khan three years ago; I never got a reply.) 

The claim is untrue. Trans people have the same legal rights as the rest of us. What militant activists are demanding is a wholesale takeover of women-only spaces by men who claim to be women. The response, when we politely and reasonably refuse, is a form of aggression instantly recognisable to any woman who has witnessed male violence. Sometimes the threats erupt into actual physical violence, as evidenced in assaults on Posie Parker, Julie Bindel and Maria MacLachlan. That, let’s remind ourselves, is exactly what Baker was advocating at the weekend.

The dishonesty doesn’t stop there, however. The notion that “the debate is toxic on both sides” only aids trans activism. There is not a grain of truth in it, but the movement has so successfully indoctrinated supporters that it’s repeated even by Parliamentarians who should know better.

Thus the Labour MP Clive Lewis condemned Baker’s advocacy of violence,  but went on to claim that “violent language and actions are not unique to one side on this issue”. Really? When did feminists bang on windows and let off smoke bombs to disrupt peaceful meetings? When did we threaten to rape people with whom we disagree?

Baker’s speech is just the latest example of the dangerous rhetoric routinely used by trans activists. If he was released from prison on licence, as seems likely, he has almost certainly broken his terms and should be recalled. The police should not stand idly by while women are threatened with physical assault.

But the larger issue is this. All that nonsense about gender fluidity and pronouns is providing cover for a violent, narcissistic upsurge of misogyny. It allows angry men to say and do things they wouldn’t have dreamed of getting away with twenty years ago. And the people who make excuses for it are colluding in the most serious threat to women’s safety and rights in my lifetime.


Joan Smith is a novelist and columnist. She has been Chair of the Mayor of London’s Violence Against Women and Girls Board since 2013. Her book Homegrown: How Domestic Violence Turns Men Into Terrorists was published in 2019.

polblonde

Join the discussion


Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber


To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.

Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.

Subscribe
Subscribe
Notify of
guest

83 Comments
Most Voted
Newest Oldest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Alice Bondi
Alice Bondi
10 months ago

Excellent article (as ever), Joan. It is astonishing that some people – even MPs – seem able to at least tacitly condone incitement to violence when the targets are women. Today I’ve also been told that the target is not women, but ‘TERFS’. So perhaps we cease being women when we express our disquiet about the impact of gender identity ideology.

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

I’m sure all those who don’t condemn him in the strongest possible terms would condemn in the strongest possible terms anyone who stood in front of a cheering crowd in central London and incited them to punch men in dresses in the f*cking face.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

“When did feminists bang on windows and let off smoke bombs to disrupt peaceful meetings?”
Not scoring points but I suggest you check the history of the suffragette movement, but presumably their violence was justified because their cause was just.

John Tyler
John Tyler
10 months ago

Most radical movements have the problem of a lunatic fringe. The big difference between suffragists and trans extremists is that the former had a very reasonable cause for half the population of their country and the world. (That doesn’t make any of their more extreme actions necessarily acceptable.) The trans lobby’s freedom fighters are just self-centred, self-important and thoroughly immature ideologues.

John Tyler
John Tyler
10 months ago

Most radical movements have the problem of a lunatic fringe. The big difference between suffragists and trans extremists is that the former had a very reasonable cause for half the population of their country and the world. (That doesn’t make any of their more extreme actions necessarily acceptable.) The trans lobby’s freedom fighters are just self-centred, self-important and thoroughly immature ideologues.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

“When did feminists bang on windows and let off smoke bombs to disrupt peaceful meetings?”
Not scoring points but I suggest you check the history of the suffragette movement, but presumably their violence was justified because their cause was just.

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

You are exactly right Alice and anyway many police forces do not act because those at the top have some sexual deviancy issues of their own maybe , rainbows on helmets , etc . Millions of people are angry at what they see . Are some police officers in charge devoid of any awareness at what is going on around them ?

Christine Marie Janis
Christine Marie Janis
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

You can’t use the C word, so use the T word. The rage against women, especially older, and so less tractable, ones is palpable

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

Yes, this little essay hits all right the nails so squarely on the head, we’re spared the need even to comment.

Last edited 10 months ago by Michael McElwee
elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

And they accuse us of ‘transphobia’ when we quite rightly take their terrorist threats seriously? Which is what one is SUPPOSED to do. It’s time to go back to banning all male bodied, all male born bodies out of women’s spaces, and if they are so terrified of their brothers, then they can do what women did and set up their own spaces.

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

I’m sure all those who don’t condemn him in the strongest possible terms would condemn in the strongest possible terms anyone who stood in front of a cheering crowd in central London and incited them to punch men in dresses in the f*cking face.

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

You are exactly right Alice and anyway many police forces do not act because those at the top have some sexual deviancy issues of their own maybe , rainbows on helmets , etc . Millions of people are angry at what they see . Are some police officers in charge devoid of any awareness at what is going on around them ?

Christine Marie Janis
Christine Marie Janis
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

You can’t use the C word, so use the T word. The rage against women, especially older, and so less tractable, ones is palpable

Michael McElwee
Michael McElwee
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

Yes, this little essay hits all right the nails so squarely on the head, we’re spared the need even to comment.

Last edited 10 months ago by Michael McElwee
elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Alice Bondi

And they accuse us of ‘transphobia’ when we quite rightly take their terrorist threats seriously? Which is what one is SUPPOSED to do. It’s time to go back to banning all male bodied, all male born bodies out of women’s spaces, and if they are so terrified of their brothers, then they can do what women did and set up their own spaces.

Alice Bondi
Alice Bondi
10 months ago

Excellent article (as ever), Joan. It is astonishing that some people – even MPs – seem able to at least tacitly condone incitement to violence when the targets are women. Today I’ve also been told that the target is not women, but ‘TERFS’. So perhaps we cease being women when we express our disquiet about the impact of gender identity ideology.

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
10 months ago

I’m not a lawyer, but isn’t inciting violence a criminal offence?

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago
Reply to  Philip Stott

Yes but many of our police forces , not all, no longer police . I wonder how many activists of one kind or another are taking a salary from a police force under false pretences ?

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Castle

I read today that the vile bloke has been charged after all.
Seems plod has finally found their cojones.

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
10 months ago
Reply to  Paul Castle

I read today that the vile bloke has been charged after all.
Seems plod has finally found their cojones.

Lang Cleg
Lang Cleg
10 months ago
Reply to  Philip Stott

Yes, but I think prosecutors have to prove that the inciting person believed that violence could or would ensue. Not a “reasonable person” but the inciter themselves. More subjectivity in law.

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
10 months ago
Reply to  Lang Cleg

I’m fairly sure that if the situation were reversed, and a feminist with a bullhorn was exhorting a crowd to “punch a tranny if you see one”, the police would come down on her like a ton of bricks.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
10 months ago
Reply to  Lang Cleg

Bakers “previous” puts him ‘in-the-frame. He surely should have been recalled if he is out on licence. Arresting him at the scene might have caused a riot but they must know his address and could have picked him up later.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Lang Cleg

Since there have been so many ACTUAL cases of attacks on women by trans, it is more than a credible threat of violence, it’s basically going to happen even more, because the cult leaders are calling to burn the heretic witches at the stake. This was not ‘venting anger’ it was a call to action. And this is why women don’t want trans in our spaces, let alone all men because now women’s spaces are ‘unisex’ and all males can enter. We are being groomed, to tolerate male occupation of our bodies and our spaces, we have no safe havens from male violence

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
10 months ago
Reply to  Lang Cleg

I’m fairly sure that if the situation were reversed, and a feminist with a bullhorn was exhorting a crowd to “punch a tranny if you see one”, the police would come down on her like a ton of bricks.

Doug Pingel
Doug Pingel
10 months ago
Reply to  Lang Cleg

Bakers “previous” puts him ‘in-the-frame. He surely should have been recalled if he is out on licence. Arresting him at the scene might have caused a riot but they must know his address and could have picked him up later.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Lang Cleg

Since there have been so many ACTUAL cases of attacks on women by trans, it is more than a credible threat of violence, it’s basically going to happen even more, because the cult leaders are calling to burn the heretic witches at the stake. This was not ‘venting anger’ it was a call to action. And this is why women don’t want trans in our spaces, let alone all men because now women’s spaces are ‘unisex’ and all males can enter. We are being groomed, to tolerate male occupation of our bodies and our spaces, we have no safe havens from male violence

L Walker
L Walker
10 months ago
Reply to  Philip Stott

Here in the US it is, and in every state, I believe.

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago
Reply to  Philip Stott

Yes but many of our police forces , not all, no longer police . I wonder how many activists of one kind or another are taking a salary from a police force under false pretences ?

Lang Cleg
Lang Cleg
10 months ago
Reply to  Philip Stott

Yes, but I think prosecutors have to prove that the inciting person believed that violence could or would ensue. Not a “reasonable person” but the inciter themselves. More subjectivity in law.

L Walker
L Walker
10 months ago
Reply to  Philip Stott

Here in the US it is, and in every state, I believe.

Philip Stott
Philip Stott
10 months ago

I’m not a lawyer, but isn’t inciting violence a criminal offence?

Andrew Buckley
Andrew Buckley
10 months ago

Why on earth would any organisation want someone like Baker to be a spokesperson?
His attitude is pure mysonginy.

m_dunec
m_dunec
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

Agreed – though the trans ideology itself is pure misogyny so, I guess he’s a good front man! He did a post prison podcast, following his 30 year stint..
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZHXUXgnjQnI&feature=share8

james goater
james goater
10 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

Thanks. An instructive interview indeed — repellant, too.

m_dunec
m_dunec
10 months ago
Reply to  james goater

No problem – he campaigns for men in women’s prisons too, obviously.. https://youtube.com/@sarahjanebaker2?feature=share8

Last edited 10 months ago by m_dunec
m_dunec
m_dunec
10 months ago
Reply to  james goater

No problem – he campaigns for men in women’s prisons too, obviously.. https://youtube.com/@sarahjanebaker2?feature=share8

Last edited 10 months ago by m_dunec
james goater
james goater
10 months ago
Reply to  m_dunec

Thanks. An instructive interview indeed — repellant, too.

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

I am sure most ordinary trans people are absolutely horrified at what is being said and done in their name. However when all this finally blows up in the trans lobby’s face, it will be the ordinary trans people who suffer the consequences.
The trans lobby need somehow to get control over their monsters like “Sarah Jane”. Would you want him sharing a communal changing room with your wife and young children?

Last edited 10 months ago by Adrian Smith
Rob Shaw
Rob Shaw
10 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

I don’t think so. Trans-ness is a position one can almost exclusively come to only through political indoctrination. That is, the idea that gender is mutable, and traditional roles are a bourgeois construct which can thus be discarded. You have to believe that before you transition. So if the vast majority are coming to this position via political extremism, it stands that the vast majority agree with the extremism of the prominent ‘activists’ which you describe. The mad ones are the norm

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Rob Shaw

The crowd CHEERED at his call to action. Ernst Rohm would have LOVED him. The SA (Soro’s Army) shock troop to terrify the public into compliance.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Rob Shaw

The crowd CHEERED at his call to action. Ernst Rohm would have LOVED him. The SA (Soro’s Army) shock troop to terrify the public into compliance.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

meh. If the ‘good’ trans would treat those attackers as unwanted outsiders, and ban them, but they won’t because those trans are Myrmidons. They are there to terrify women, scare us out of public space, push our boundaries past the breaking point, normalizing predatory and paraphiliac behavior by pornsick men

Rob Shaw
Rob Shaw
10 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

I don’t think so. Trans-ness is a position one can almost exclusively come to only through political indoctrination. That is, the idea that gender is mutable, and traditional roles are a bourgeois construct which can thus be discarded. You have to believe that before you transition. So if the vast majority are coming to this position via political extremism, it stands that the vast majority agree with the extremism of the prominent ‘activists’ which you describe. The mad ones are the norm

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Adrian Smith

meh. If the ‘good’ trans would treat those attackers as unwanted outsiders, and ban them, but they won’t because those trans are Myrmidons. They are there to terrify women, scare us out of public space, push our boundaries past the breaking point, normalizing predatory and paraphiliac behavior by pornsick men

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

Obviously, an organization based on misogyny would want him to represent them. He’s a TaterTot in a dress. (my name for AndyTate minions is Tater Tot)

m_dunec
m_dunec
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

Agreed – though the trans ideology itself is pure misogyny so, I guess he’s a good front man! He did a post prison podcast, following his 30 year stint..
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZHXUXgnjQnI&feature=share8

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

I am sure most ordinary trans people are absolutely horrified at what is being said and done in their name. However when all this finally blows up in the trans lobby’s face, it will be the ordinary trans people who suffer the consequences.
The trans lobby need somehow to get control over their monsters like “Sarah Jane”. Would you want him sharing a communal changing room with your wife and young children?

Last edited 10 months ago by Adrian Smith
elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew Buckley

Obviously, an organization based on misogyny would want him to represent them. He’s a TaterTot in a dress. (my name for AndyTate minions is Tater Tot)

Andrew Buckley
Andrew Buckley
10 months ago

Why on earth would any organisation want someone like Baker to be a spokesperson?
His attitude is pure mysonginy.

George Scipio
George Scipio
10 months ago

We need at least one piece like this in the media every day. If politicians collude in the lie that women’s opposition to erasure in rights, sport, achievement, privacy, dignity and healthcare in the name of “inclusion” (sick joke) is violent towards trans people, force those politicians to cite evidence or retract their slurs on those who hold up half the sky.

George Scipio
George Scipio
10 months ago

We need at least one piece like this in the media every day. If politicians collude in the lie that women’s opposition to erasure in rights, sport, achievement, privacy, dignity and healthcare in the name of “inclusion” (sick joke) is violent towards trans people, force those politicians to cite evidence or retract their slurs on those who hold up half the sky.

Stan Konwiser
Stan Konwiser
10 months ago

Break the acronym: The LGB community has been high jacked by the toxic, miniscule TQ+ community. All the noise, violence and overreaction is from the TQ+ minority. The LGB community has achieved acceptance into modern society but is being dragged into the mud by their so-called TQ+ cohorts. Separate the acronym and the TQ+ community will become marginalized and ignored.

Anne Torr
Anne Torr
10 months ago
Reply to  Stan Konwiser

Hear, hear.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
10 months ago
Reply to  Stan Konwiser

This is exactly what the LGB Alliance have done – and for that Mermaids tried to get their charitable status removed. Fortunately they failed but, as you say, the LGB totally need to separate themselves from the T. LGB people are same sex attracted, trans activists appear to have an issue with this (“embrace the p***s” my ass!). I just feel sorry for the genuine trans people who have been quietly living their lives and want nothing to do with the agressive and mysogynistic trans activists.

Anne Torr
Anne Torr
10 months ago
Reply to  Stan Konwiser

Hear, hear.

Nikki Hayes
Nikki Hayes
10 months ago
Reply to  Stan Konwiser

This is exactly what the LGB Alliance have done – and for that Mermaids tried to get their charitable status removed. Fortunately they failed but, as you say, the LGB totally need to separate themselves from the T. LGB people are same sex attracted, trans activists appear to have an issue with this (“embrace the p***s” my ass!). I just feel sorry for the genuine trans people who have been quietly living their lives and want nothing to do with the agressive and mysogynistic trans activists.

Stan Konwiser
Stan Konwiser
10 months ago

Break the acronym: The LGB community has been high jacked by the toxic, miniscule TQ+ community. All the noise, violence and overreaction is from the TQ+ minority. The LGB community has achieved acceptance into modern society but is being dragged into the mud by their so-called TQ+ cohorts. Separate the acronym and the TQ+ community will become marginalized and ignored.

stephen david
stephen david
10 months ago

Inciting violence is a criminal offence, but the CPS will do nothing. It is another case of institutional capture that has happened under a Conservative government.

Apsley
Apsley
10 months ago
Reply to  stephen david

Too true! The Woke War has been spearheaded by the Tories in the UK.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  stephen david

Women are fair game for abuse by men of both sides. Shulamith Firestone let us know about that decades ago. Marilyn French et al wrote a lot of fiction that discussed the reality of how ‘enlightened’ men are just as big a swine as the conservatives. As someone said, men on the right want women to be private property and men on the left want women to be public property. We seem to have a choice between birthing camps and government brothels. South Park Season 8 Episode 8

Apsley
Apsley
10 months ago
Reply to  stephen david

Too true! The Woke War has been spearheaded by the Tories in the UK.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  stephen david

Women are fair game for abuse by men of both sides. Shulamith Firestone let us know about that decades ago. Marilyn French et al wrote a lot of fiction that discussed the reality of how ‘enlightened’ men are just as big a swine as the conservatives. As someone said, men on the right want women to be private property and men on the left want women to be public property. We seem to have a choice between birthing camps and government brothels. South Park Season 8 Episode 8

stephen david
stephen david
10 months ago

Inciting violence is a criminal offence, but the CPS will do nothing. It is another case of institutional capture that has happened under a Conservative government.

Samantha Stevens
Samantha Stevens
10 months ago

I am in the US, a teacher and mom of an autistic daughter. I worry so much for the safety of my daughter who is so vulnerable. I am losing hope as I see gender ideology take over everything from education to healthcare. I am so sick of the term transwoman. It’s intended to mentally dupe you into thinking of these men as women. But in every way they are men. And they seem to be the most violent, angry men who hate women with a seething vengeance. The kind you would never want in a confined space with you. Is there any hope of reversing this? They just keep gaining power and influence. Our President is completely on their side, as are all the Democrats. I see that you liberals are as well. And I certainly don’t see Donald Trump as the champion coming in to save women. Ugh.

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
10 months ago

You’re right about the misogyny. They make no attempt to hide it. And a large minority of women cheer them on.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Most women are collaborators who happily side with men against women. Handmaids, PickMes, Mombies, who get their identity from husbands and sons, and have internalized misogyny. Stockholm Syndrome, False Consciousness, etc, most women would rather pimp their daughters and set up their sisters for rape than to stand up for themselves and other women. In short, women are as vile as men, but in different ways. This is why I identify as a misanthrope, I loathe everyone equally.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Albert McGloan

Most women are collaborators who happily side with men against women. Handmaids, PickMes, Mombies, who get their identity from husbands and sons, and have internalized misogyny. Stockholm Syndrome, False Consciousness, etc, most women would rather pimp their daughters and set up their sisters for rape than to stand up for themselves and other women. In short, women are as vile as men, but in different ways. This is why I identify as a misanthrope, I loathe everyone equally.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago

Feminists have been mocking chivalry for decades and removing sports such as boxing and rugby from schools. We now have, probably the majority of men unwilling and incapable of fighting to defend women.
There have been no tougher women than that of Sparta. Girls in Sparta were trained in wrestling and athletics.
One woman sent forth her sons, five in number, to war, and, standing in the outskirts of the city, she awaited anxiously the outcome of the battle. And when someone arrived and, in answer to her inquiry, reported that all her sons had met death, she said,  p463 “I did not inquire about that, you vile varlet, but how fares our country?” And when he declared that it was victorious, “Then,” she said, “I accept gladly also the death of my sons.”18Plutarch • Sayings of Spartan Women (uchicago.edu)

Albert McGloan
Albert McGloan
10 months ago

You’re right about the misogyny. They make no attempt to hide it. And a large minority of women cheer them on.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago

Feminists have been mocking chivalry for decades and removing sports such as boxing and rugby from schools. We now have, probably the majority of men unwilling and incapable of fighting to defend women.
There have been no tougher women than that of Sparta. Girls in Sparta were trained in wrestling and athletics.
One woman sent forth her sons, five in number, to war, and, standing in the outskirts of the city, she awaited anxiously the outcome of the battle. And when someone arrived and, in answer to her inquiry, reported that all her sons had met death, she said,  p463 “I did not inquire about that, you vile varlet, but how fares our country?” And when he declared that it was victorious, “Then,” she said, “I accept gladly also the death of my sons.”18Plutarch • Sayings of Spartan Women (uchicago.edu)

Samantha Stevens
Samantha Stevens
10 months ago

I am in the US, a teacher and mom of an autistic daughter. I worry so much for the safety of my daughter who is so vulnerable. I am losing hope as I see gender ideology take over everything from education to healthcare. I am so sick of the term transwoman. It’s intended to mentally dupe you into thinking of these men as women. But in every way they are men. And they seem to be the most violent, angry men who hate women with a seething vengeance. The kind you would never want in a confined space with you. Is there any hope of reversing this? They just keep gaining power and influence. Our President is completely on their side, as are all the Democrats. I see that you liberals are as well. And I certainly don’t see Donald Trump as the champion coming in to save women. Ugh.

Nancy G
Nancy G
10 months ago

If you (can bear to) look at Pink News, you’ll see images from the parade, with placards comparing gender critical people to Nazis, fascists, etc. Can Labour MP Clive Lewis provide an example of feminists using such language?
Would he and other ‘sympathetic’ Labour MPs, in the name of ‘trans rights’, want Sarah Jane Baker to be in their daughters’ changing rooms?

Nancy G
Nancy G
10 months ago

If you (can bear to) look at Pink News, you’ll see images from the parade, with placards comparing gender critical people to Nazis, fascists, etc. Can Labour MP Clive Lewis provide an example of feminists using such language?
Would he and other ‘sympathetic’ Labour MPs, in the name of ‘trans rights’, want Sarah Jane Baker to be in their daughters’ changing rooms?

Adam Huntley
Adam Huntley
10 months ago

No doubt others will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall any trans woman claiming to be a man who also incites violence. Is this actually a testosterone thing?

Nancy G
Nancy G
10 months ago
Reply to  Adam Huntley

We also don’t see women who identify as men insisting on entering male changing rooms, male sports teams, male prisons or male hospital wards. I wonder why?

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Nancy G

Don’t we?

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Nancy G

Why would they enter male sports? Their chances of winning would be reduced.

Ethniciodo Rodenydo
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
10 months ago
Reply to  Nancy G

Don’t we?

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Nancy G

Why would they enter male sports? Their chances of winning would be reduced.

Caty Gonzales
Caty Gonzales
10 months ago
Reply to  Adam Huntley

Across the pond, there was the school shooting in Tennessee. The perp was a female to male trans individual who wrote a manifesto which, I believe, still hasn’t been published.

Simon Tavanyar
Simon Tavanyar
10 months ago
Reply to  Caty Gonzales

OK that’s one! Any others?

Mary Bruels
Mary Bruels
10 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

The recent shooting in Philadelphia was done by a man claiming to be a woman.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

Dana Rivers in Oakland CA. Butchered two lesbians, their son, killed the pets and set the house on fire. There are plenty of archives, try Not Our Crimes, Reduxx, Feminist Current, This Never Happens, and many others.

Mary Bruels
Mary Bruels
10 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

The recent shooting in Philadelphia was done by a man claiming to be a woman.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

Dana Rivers in Oakland CA. Butchered two lesbians, their son, killed the pets and set the house on fire. There are plenty of archives, try Not Our Crimes, Reduxx, Feminist Current, This Never Happens, and many others.

Simon Tavanyar
Simon Tavanyar
10 months ago
Reply to  Caty Gonzales

OK that’s one! Any others?

Nancy G
Nancy G
10 months ago
Reply to  Adam Huntley

We also don’t see women who identify as men insisting on entering male changing rooms, male sports teams, male prisons or male hospital wards. I wonder why?

Caty Gonzales
Caty Gonzales
10 months ago
Reply to  Adam Huntley

Across the pond, there was the school shooting in Tennessee. The perp was a female to male trans individual who wrote a manifesto which, I believe, still hasn’t been published.

Adam Huntley
Adam Huntley
10 months ago

No doubt others will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall any trans woman claiming to be a man who also incites violence. Is this actually a testosterone thing?

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago

Is that a man in a red beret pretending to be a woman ? The violence comes from only one side , these lunatics are out of control but you don’t need me to tell you that ! This trans business is all about mental illness and we do not need a shrink to tell us that , do we now ?

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Castle
Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago

Is that a man in a red beret pretending to be a woman ? The violence comes from only one side , these lunatics are out of control but you don’t need me to tell you that ! This trans business is all about mental illness and we do not need a shrink to tell us that , do we now ?

Last edited 10 months ago by Paul Castle
Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
10 months ago

Men threatening (and committing) violence against women? Shouldn’t (sane, self-respecting) men step up to defend or protect them?

Last edited 10 months ago by Richard Pearse
Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Richard Pearse

Yes but it would probably end up being us that got arrested for committing a hate crime!

Adrian Smith
Adrian Smith
10 months ago
Reply to  Richard Pearse

Yes but it would probably end up being us that got arrested for committing a hate crime!

Richard Pearse
Richard Pearse
10 months ago

Men threatening (and committing) violence against women? Shouldn’t (sane, self-respecting) men step up to defend or protect them?

Last edited 10 months ago by Richard Pearse
Simon Tavanyar
Simon Tavanyar
10 months ago

“The calls for violence only come from one side”. The reason is clear, if you follow simple logic. The claim of the Trans lobby is that trans (i.e. non-binary) people are fighting for “the right to exist”, supported by the notion that if a trans person cannot have all their demands met, then they will commit suicide. Hence, when presented with the proposal that they can have *some* of their demand met, but not all, it is lethal violence.
Quite simply, it’s a hostage crisis. Submit to my demands or people will die. Another expression is domestic terrorism.
The only way to oppose it is to reject the logical premise. No, you can’t have everything you want, and no, we are not giving in to your blackmail.

Velvet Kay
Velvet Kay
10 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

That’s exactly what it is – a hostage crisis, fuelled by gullible or complicit people. In no other sphere would this be tolerated.

Last edited 10 months ago by Velvet Kay
Velvet Kay
Velvet Kay
10 months ago
Reply to  Simon Tavanyar

That’s exactly what it is – a hostage crisis, fuelled by gullible or complicit people. In no other sphere would this be tolerated.

Last edited 10 months ago by Velvet Kay
Simon Tavanyar
Simon Tavanyar
10 months ago

“The calls for violence only come from one side”. The reason is clear, if you follow simple logic. The claim of the Trans lobby is that trans (i.e. non-binary) people are fighting for “the right to exist”, supported by the notion that if a trans person cannot have all their demands met, then they will commit suicide. Hence, when presented with the proposal that they can have *some* of their demand met, but not all, it is lethal violence.
Quite simply, it’s a hostage crisis. Submit to my demands or people will die. Another expression is domestic terrorism.
The only way to oppose it is to reject the logical premise. No, you can’t have everything you want, and no, we are not giving in to your blackmail.

Tom Griffiths
Tom Griffiths
10 months ago

A very good article. As someone who has worked in the family/domestic violence field for over 35 years – primarily running and/or supervising what we in Australia call men’s family violence groups – the parallels between the verbal and psychological forms of violence and what is being described in this article (amongst others) is striking. As is the rank hypocrisy we see, not to mention the collusion we see coming from the authorities. A spade needs to be called a spade. The behaviour is violent and thuggish. I have no idea whether any research or anecdotal info exists exploring/highlighting the violence described above and violence being used by the same individuals in domestic/family settings although what we see here is suggestive. One of the interesting/useful areas to look at and work with with the men’s work is power and control – the politics of which lies behind or emerges from a persistent use of violence. The violence being used by these guys and the collusion they are taking advantage of would not be tolerated in the family violence field. It would be called out – big time. Why, I ask rhetorically, are they being allowed to get away with it here?

Tom Griffiths
Tom Griffiths
10 months ago

A very good article. As someone who has worked in the family/domestic violence field for over 35 years – primarily running and/or supervising what we in Australia call men’s family violence groups – the parallels between the verbal and psychological forms of violence and what is being described in this article (amongst others) is striking. As is the rank hypocrisy we see, not to mention the collusion we see coming from the authorities. A spade needs to be called a spade. The behaviour is violent and thuggish. I have no idea whether any research or anecdotal info exists exploring/highlighting the violence described above and violence being used by the same individuals in domestic/family settings although what we see here is suggestive. One of the interesting/useful areas to look at and work with with the men’s work is power and control – the politics of which lies behind or emerges from a persistent use of violence. The violence being used by these guys and the collusion they are taking advantage of would not be tolerated in the family violence field. It would be called out – big time. Why, I ask rhetorically, are they being allowed to get away with it here?

David Harris
David Harris
10 months ago

And of course the supporters of these violent, aggressive, abusive men are also from one side only… the Left.

Andrew H
Andrew H
10 months ago
Reply to  David Harris

Or what calls itself left-wing nowadays having apparently abandoned working class people and material advancement in favour of identitarian lunacy like this and the deeply anti-working class religion of net zero.

Andrew H
Andrew H
10 months ago
Reply to  David Harris

Or what calls itself left-wing nowadays having apparently abandoned working class people and material advancement in favour of identitarian lunacy like this and the deeply anti-working class religion of net zero.

David Harris
David Harris
10 months ago

And of course the supporters of these violent, aggressive, abusive men are also from one side only… the Left.

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago

Trans are men and men are much more violent than women !

Paul Castle
Paul Castle
10 months ago

Trans are men and men are much more violent than women !

Derek Smith
Derek Smith
10 months ago

“Sarah and many others in our community hold a lot of rage and anger and they have the right to express that anger through their words.”

I’m sorry, but isn’t this a textbook definition of ‘hate crime’?

If I said that I wanted to ‘punch a TIM in the f*king face’, and used the phrase above as a defence, I’d be arrested!

Last edited 10 months ago by Derek Smith
elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Derek Smith

Women hold a lot of rage at male violence and entitlement. Maybe we should have the same right to express our rage at being told to ‘be kind’ to paraphiliacs, predators, and men who call for punching us in the face, burning us at the stake, and more. But if we say a man can’t be a woman, that’s hate speech, and means we deserve to be attacked and murdered? Women aren’t attacking trans, making online threats of violence, and maybe that’s the problem. Maybe if women gave back as much hate, and did as much or more violence back to them when they throw the first punch, maybe if we attacked like wolves instead of sheep, they’d back off. Being kind and expecting men to be nice in return, yeah, appeasement works, right, no wait . ..

Last edited 10 months ago by elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Derek Smith

Women hold a lot of rage at male violence and entitlement. Maybe we should have the same right to express our rage at being told to ‘be kind’ to paraphiliacs, predators, and men who call for punching us in the face, burning us at the stake, and more. But if we say a man can’t be a woman, that’s hate speech, and means we deserve to be attacked and murdered? Women aren’t attacking trans, making online threats of violence, and maybe that’s the problem. Maybe if women gave back as much hate, and did as much or more violence back to them when they throw the first punch, maybe if we attacked like wolves instead of sheep, they’d back off. Being kind and expecting men to be nice in return, yeah, appeasement works, right, no wait . ..

Last edited 10 months ago by elizabeth frantes
Derek Smith
Derek Smith
10 months ago

“Sarah and many others in our community hold a lot of rage and anger and they have the right to express that anger through their words.”

I’m sorry, but isn’t this a textbook definition of ‘hate crime’?

If I said that I wanted to ‘punch a TIM in the f*king face’, and used the phrase above as a defence, I’d be arrested!

Last edited 10 months ago by Derek Smith
Robert Pruger
Robert Pruger
10 months ago

Calling for punching women in the face sounds very much like toxic masculinity, regardless of how or what you identify with. Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition.

Robert Pruger
Robert Pruger
10 months ago

Calling for punching women in the face sounds very much like toxic masculinity, regardless of how or what you identify with. Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition.

Fiona English
Fiona English
10 months ago

Another great article, Joan, which shows how deeply this well-marketed ideology has penetrated. Like you, I’m flabbergasted at how easily our institutions, politicians and services have fallen for what can only be described as a misogynistic, homophobic movement which has no care or interest in the societal safeguards we all need. Shame on those who facilitate this through their complicity and on those who are too afraid to speak out. As has been said countless times, the emperor is completely naked so why do our supposed leaders not speak up?

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Fiona English

Anyone who questioned any cultural and social changes since the late 1960s has been villified. When Mary Whitehouse campaigned against violence and sex on television she was villified.
Martin Niemöller – Wikiquote
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.
When one looks at court intrigues, the most spiteful were the eunuchs.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Fiona English

Fiona – With a few changes, your comment could have been a letter to a newspaper, written any time in the last hundred years, about any social movement you care to think of. And especially about feminism.

Charles Hedges
Charles Hedges
10 months ago
Reply to  Fiona English

Anyone who questioned any cultural and social changes since the late 1960s has been villified. When Mary Whitehouse campaigned against violence and sex on television she was villified.
Martin Niemöller – Wikiquote
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.
When one looks at court intrigues, the most spiteful were the eunuchs.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Fiona English

Fiona – With a few changes, your comment could have been a letter to a newspaper, written any time in the last hundred years, about any social movement you care to think of. And especially about feminism.

Fiona English
Fiona English
10 months ago

Another great article, Joan, which shows how deeply this well-marketed ideology has penetrated. Like you, I’m flabbergasted at how easily our institutions, politicians and services have fallen for what can only be described as a misogynistic, homophobic movement which has no care or interest in the societal safeguards we all need. Shame on those who facilitate this through their complicity and on those who are too afraid to speak out. As has been said countless times, the emperor is completely naked so why do our supposed leaders not speak up?

Tina Lennon
Tina Lennon
10 months ago

Those poor normal trans people!! You know the men in dresses who want into women’s toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, sports. They’re just normal!!

Tina Lennon
Tina Lennon
10 months ago

Those poor normal trans people!! You know the men in dresses who want into women’s toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, sports. They’re just normal!!

Brian Hunt
Brian Hunt
10 months ago

Great that, unlike most of the MSM you are calling him as him. Why do so many women support this movement? Can someone enlighten me?

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Brian Hunt

False Consciousness, Stockholm Syndrome, etc. women are trained to identify as wives and mothers, not people, and are often collaborators, PickMes, handmaids, and Mombies. Many women are rightly terrified of confronting men.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Brian Hunt

False Consciousness, Stockholm Syndrome, etc. women are trained to identify as wives and mothers, not people, and are often collaborators, PickMes, handmaids, and Mombies. Many women are rightly terrified of confronting men.

Brian Hunt
Brian Hunt
10 months ago

Great that, unlike most of the MSM you are calling him as him. Why do so many women support this movement? Can someone enlighten me?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
10 months ago

Why wasn’t this bloke arrested – isn’t incitement to violence against the law?

Hugh Bryant
Hugh Bryant
10 months ago

Why wasn’t this bloke arrested – isn’t incitement to violence against the law?

Andrew H
Andrew H
10 months ago

Excellent article. The good news is that this deeply unpleasant and violent misogynist man has now been arrested. Although I doubt the Met would have bothered had they not been shamed into it by gender-critical activists.

m_dunec
m_dunec
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew H

Agreed – can’t look good though; founder of the Transprisoner Alliance being arrested, again?!
Probably banged up with women too – it’s crazy on crazy.

Last edited 10 months ago by m_dunec
m_dunec
m_dunec
10 months ago
Reply to  Andrew H

Agreed – can’t look good though; founder of the Transprisoner Alliance being arrested, again?!
Probably banged up with women too – it’s crazy on crazy.

Last edited 10 months ago by m_dunec
Andrew H
Andrew H
10 months ago

Excellent article. The good news is that this deeply unpleasant and violent misogynist man has now been arrested. Although I doubt the Met would have bothered had they not been shamed into it by gender-critical activists.

Michel Starenky
Michel Starenky
10 months ago

I would cheer a woman who would walk up this “it” and slam him with a cricket bat.

Michel Starenky
Michel Starenky
10 months ago

I would cheer a woman who would walk up this “it” and slam him with a cricket bat.

tom Ryder
tom Ryder
10 months ago

Police would have dragged anyone praying silently off in handcuffs, thought policing

tom Ryder
tom Ryder
10 months ago

Police would have dragged anyone praying silently off in handcuffs, thought policing

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
10 months ago

Sadly true.

Susan Grabston
Susan Grabston
10 months ago

Sadly true.

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
10 months ago

Well written. I tire of reading how trans are persecuted. Maybe the problem lies within.

Michael Layman
Michael Layman
10 months ago

Well written. I tire of reading how trans are persecuted. Maybe the problem lies within.

Jeffrey Mushens
Jeffrey Mushens
10 months ago

The hard left (who have hi-jacked trans-activism) is always violent and misogynist. Remember Jenny in Forrest Gump?

Jeffrey Mushens
Jeffrey Mushens
10 months ago

The hard left (who have hi-jacked trans-activism) is always violent and misogynist. Remember Jenny in Forrest Gump?

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago

So right. The violence is always from men to women, and no woman has ever called for harming trans, we just don’t want them in our spaces, where they HAVE been abusing us, and why on earth should women ‘be nice’ to those who call for violence against women? The Transish Inquisition, calling for the death of heretics, and THEY get to define who’s a heretic . ..

Cate Terwilliger
Cate Terwilliger
10 months ago

Thanks for this analysis. It’s strong throughout, but your last paragraph, especially, lands with the force of a simple and ugly truth. Nothing so makes clear that trans-identified males are still males as aggressive, bullying behavior and calls to violence.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

When did feminists bang on windows and let off smoke bombs to disrupt peaceful meetings?

Or say “dead men don’t rape” or “all men are rapists” or write the SCUM (Society for Cutting Up Men) Manifesto, or shoot Andy Warhol, or cheer women who had cut off men’s ——- etc etc.

Suffragettes, btw, used bombs and invaded parliament.

Not so nice being on the receiving end is it.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I tell you whut, capon, the day women harm men at the same rate men harm women, I will consider your lies. And Valerie was right. Dead men don’t rape. Warhol had it coming. And women were imprisoned and tortured for demanding the vote. Your only problem is your mother didn’t swallow. Men like you are why women’s lives are so horrible.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

I tell you whut, capon, the day women harm men at the same rate men harm women, I will consider your lies. And Valerie was right. Dead men don’t rape. Warhol had it coming. And women were imprisoned and tortured for demanding the vote. Your only problem is your mother didn’t swallow. Men like you are why women’s lives are so horrible.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

When did feminists bang on windows and let off smoke bombs to disrupt peaceful meetings?

Or say “dead men don’t rape” or “all men are rapists” or write the SCUM (Society for Cutting Up Men) Manifesto, or shoot Andy Warhol, or cheer women who had cut off men’s ——- etc etc.

Suffragettes, btw, used bombs and invaded parliament.

Not so nice being on the receiving end is it.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

This is pretty dishonest piece, even if I agree broadly with the overall position being taken. And this dishonesty doesn’t help the debate.

To take just one point (there are many):

Terf is a slur used against feminists who support women’s rights

No, it’s a “slur” against those feminists who feel that women’s rights should take priority over trans rights in areas where they conflict. That’s not the same.

Unherd should not be a haven for Ranty feminists, dishonest rhetoric, preaching to the converted and sub Daily Mail journalism.

Btw – recent brilliant and balanced piece by Kathleen Stock is why I recently renewed my sub after a big gap. More of that please.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Well, that’s mighty white of you, TaterTot. Like I have any (85s left to give you.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Well, that’s mighty white of you, TaterTot. Like I have any (85s left to give you.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago

This is pretty dishonest piece, even if I agree broadly with the overall position being taken. And this dishonesty doesn’t help the debate.

To take just one point (there are many):

Terf is a slur used against feminists who support women’s rights

No, it’s a “slur” against those feminists who feel that women’s rights should take priority over trans rights in areas where they conflict. That’s not the same.

Unherd should not be a haven for Ranty feminists, dishonest rhetoric, preaching to the converted and sub Daily Mail journalism.

Btw – recent brilliant and balanced piece by Kathleen Stock is why I recently renewed my sub after a big gap. More of that please.

Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago

It allows angry men to say and do things they wouldn’t have dreamed of getting away with twenty years ago.

It seems like men are either part of the patriarchy hence at the root of all the problems in the world, or are too much like women and are therefore stealing women’s exclusive spaces.
It’s hard to avoid concluding that no matter how they approach problems, feminists can’t imagine a world where men aren’t a problem. Perhaps it’s time feminists begin to admit that they’re part of the problem here.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

Thumbs up from me, for a good attempt on your part to break up the herd a little.

And there is a genuine irony in that feminists have been trying to make men more like women for decades – but seem rather to have overshot the mark.

Or perhaps it isn’t just irony. Perhaps the feminism that kids have now been exposed to in school for decades has resulted in a significant number of men simply wanting to jump ship.

Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Feminism wields a significant amount of power in today’s society. Therefore it’s unavoidably responsible for some of its significant failures. The sooner we can start exploring this the better.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

If feminism had power, men like you would have been erased a long time ago. Go explore yourself. And don’t tell us about our lives and our history, capon,

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

If feminism had power, men like you would have been erased a long time ago. Go explore yourself. And don’t tell us about our lives and our history, capon,

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

So you know what all feminists have planned? Are you on drugs? should you be? And go ahead, jump ship, most of you would poison the sharks.

Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

Feminism wields a significant amount of power in today’s society. Therefore it’s unavoidably responsible for some of its significant failures. The sooner we can start exploring this the better.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  David Morley

So you know what all feminists have planned? Are you on drugs? should you be? And go ahead, jump ship, most of you would poison the sharks.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

Yes, we are, because we should stop birthing all males. Problem solved. We only need a few prime specimens for breeding. The rest of you are worthless.

David Morley
David Morley
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

Thumbs up from me, for a good attempt on your part to break up the herd a little.

And there is a genuine irony in that feminists have been trying to make men more like women for decades – but seem rather to have overshot the mark.

Or perhaps it isn’t just irony. Perhaps the feminism that kids have now been exposed to in school for decades has resulted in a significant number of men simply wanting to jump ship.

elizabeth frantes
elizabeth frantes
10 months ago
Reply to  Emre S

Yes, we are, because we should stop birthing all males. Problem solved. We only need a few prime specimens for breeding. The rest of you are worthless.

Emre S
Emre S
10 months ago

It allows angry men to say and do things they wouldn’t have dreamed of getting away with twenty years ago.

It seems like men are either part of the patriarchy hence at the root of all the problems in the world, or are too much like women and are therefore stealing women’s exclusive spaces.
It’s hard to avoid concluding that no matter how they approach problems, feminists can’t imagine a world where men aren’t a problem. Perhaps it’s time feminists begin to admit that they’re part of the problem here.