August 4, 2022 - 5:25pm
Amnesty International has been roundly condemned by pro-Ukraine voices for a new report criticising Ukraine. The human rights group warned that Ukrainian forces were jeopardising the safety of civilians by establishing bases in populated residential areas, including schools and hospitals.
“We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General. “Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law.”
Pro-Ukraine voices have since come out in force to denounce the report. Olexandr Pavlychenko, former President of Ukrainian Helsinki Group called the AI report “manipulative” while Ukraine’s ambassador to the US, Oksana Markarova accused Amnesty of “victim-blaming”.
Alex Kokcharov, a risk analyst specialising in Ukraine and Eastern Europe, told UnHerd: “The piece by Amnesty was written by Western researchers parachuted into Ukraine who knew little about the area. It is highly unlikely that the Kyiv Amnesty branch was involved in the creation of the report, which is why it feels so one-sided.”
Anger directed at Amnesty is surprising given that it is the first critical piece the group has written on Ukraine since the war began. Over the last six months, Amnesty has published 40 articles on Ukraine, nearly all of which condemn Russia’s invasion, with only one exception — its latest — that could be conceivably described as critical of Ukraine.
International humanitarian law requires all parties to a conflict to avoid locating, to the maximum extent feasible, military objectives within or near densely populated areas. Though the report is critical of Ukraine’s fighting tactics, it adds that it did not find evidence of Ukrainian forces locating themselves in the civilian areas in Kharkiv, for example. The report also accuses Russia of launching indiscriminate attacks, including the use of internationally banned cluster munitions.
Join the discussion
Join like minded readers that support our journalism by becoming a paid subscriber
To join the discussion in the comments, become a paid subscriber.
Join like minded readers that support our journalism, read unlimited articles and enjoy other subscriber-only benefits.
SubscribeThe Amnesty report sounds fairly realistic. Amnesty is not my favourite organisation, but the do have an obligation to critricise all sides evenly.
Right. If Ukrainian forces were not present then Russian forces were not forced to bomb cities – they could limit their actions to raping, tortures, robbery and kidnapping. Which is much better for civilians.
Profile: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment? | Military News | Al Jazeera
How many Russian towns had been ruined by Ukrainians?
Zero?
How many Ukrainians had been killed simply because they are Ukrainians? Tens of thousands and the number is growing.
So who is nazi?
And let’s kill more of them until they quit bombing Donetsk
Strange thing that Donetsk is shelled from the eastern direction… And who is to the east of Donetsk? Russians!
Al Jazeera is funded by the government of Qatar, a country where homosexuality is punishable by death, where public floggings & stonings are part of the criminal justice system, and migrant workers are treated like slaves. Perhpas Al Jazeera is not the most reliable source of information when it comes to criticism of human rights abuses.
And your point is? The facts stand. Regardless of source, these are assertions made by both the EU and UN prior to this war.
Then why quote AJ?
Why not ?
They have a bigger global footprint and are trusted by more of the worlds population than the BBC at this point, let alone CNN.
Anyone that trusts AJ needs their head examining… about as reliable as TikTok.
uh bret baier from fox asked zelensky about it and he admitted it. there is so much information about the ukraine that is being kept from the public.
I really don’t know how to reply to your assertion? Do you agree or just repeating what you believe to be pseudo-intelligent ?
Mmmm. ‘Floggings and Stonings are part of the Criminal Justice system’ …….I do believe we could do with a bit of that in UK, for example with kiddiemolesters, groomers, some Police detectives on the Met …… should I go on ….? or perhaps especially with the grooming gangs, you would rather respect their human rights and allow them to live with their families in peace….. salam alleikum!
‘Migrant workers are treated like slaves’ …. I suggest you get your head out of your a**e and stop paraphrasing all these leftie NGOs about this subject, as I for one, know this to be absolutely untrue, so stop repeating these oft-used lies.
There was no Azov presence in Bucha, so what’s the Russians excuse there for their Third Reich behaviour?
For what little it is worth I am on your side, and I am convinced that the Russians have been much, much worse than anything the Ukrainians have done. Still, the Amnesty accusation is that Ukrainian troops have been fighting and marshalling close to civilians without evacuating them first or keeping their distance. I suspect that is true. I am not sure you could realisticallly have done anything else (war is war), so I do not put much importance on that, but Amnesty do have an obligation to call out everything they consider against the rules of war, no matter who does it. You have the right on your side and the Russians are much worse, but that does not mean that you are completely immune to criticism.
Then you need you research WWII History
Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany – Wikipedia
I know all that, and I cannot see how it is relevant to what is happening today, any more than I would blame Putin for the actions of Ivan the Terrible. Anyway, both Hitler and Stalin were evil mass murderers. If some Ukrainians mistakenly thought that collaborating with the invader would save some suffering and maybe free them from the clutches of Stalin, well, it is at least an understandable mistake. Most countries across Europe have had fascists and pogroms both, Russia very much included. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
Or Soviet collaboration with Nazi Germany at the start of the war?
Yes: the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, anyone?
WW2 history is not relevant here. But if you want to apply it then please make step ahead and continue.
Hungary was on the Hitler’s side from thee beginning. Now Hungary is on the Putin’s side.
Russians collaborated with Nazi Germany as well. Vlasov’s army alone had 200000 man in 1945. Overall about 800000 Russians were members of that army during WW2.
And there were not Vlasov’s army only. There were others. Few millions Russians fought on Hitler’s side during WW2.
Now what?
They have tried to evacuate civilians from conflict areas – problem being that some refuse to be evacuated. What are they supposed to do? Drag them out?
All the Ukrainians had to do was abide by the treaty they agreed to, but for 8 years they bombed the Russian parts of Ukraine , they need to be eliminated and they will be.
Neither side abided by the Minsk treaties. Which, as WIkipedia notes were ‘extracted under the threat of Russian gun barrels’ and ‘highly favourable to Russia’.
There’s no such thing as Russian parts of Ukraine, it’s all Ukrainian territory. Russia signed a treaty with Ukraine to respect their territorial boundaries in exchange for giving up their nuclear arsenal
Thanks for dealing with this.
I note the lack of response from KK regards my link on Azov!, I have found the absolute deference to what is evidently Ukrainian hyperbole propaganda as fact in western media astounding. Are they devoid of all critical analysis and the journalistic requirement for confirmation of source? I am sure that Russians are being subjected to the converse. This is what happens when our politicos fight their diplomatic issues via the prism of social media upticks.
Thanks for the ‘thumbs down’ KK, perhaps you could rather place a critical rebuttal to counter my assertions? Probably not I would venture. It is hard to argue with factual evidence and balanced argument when all you have is ‘propaganda’ which does not stand the scrutiny of critical thought.
Do you know that there were Jews among the founders of “Azov”?
Azov had been created as a response to Russian invasion. And there were some nazis among them. That is true.
But later it became part of official Ukrainian forces and all such people had been exiled. It has no any ideology (nazi or any other one) and acts in accordance with Ukrainian laws.
If you have any evidence of systematic display of nazi actions by Azov – you are welcomed to share them. Yeah, and do not share any Russian evidence – they cannot be valid for obvious reasons.
What is there to rebut? It is well established that the Azov regiment started out as far-right group with neo-nazi links (which may have been diluted by now). Also that the Ukrainian government relied on them in 2014 as there was a shortage of people ready and prepared to fight, and incorporated them in the armed forces since then. Equally it is well established that this is a pretty small group that is not representative of either Ukraine or its armed forces.
Have they done nasty things in the war? Quite likely – civil wars tend to be nasty. Before you get all fired up about them, you really ought to prove that the Donbas separatists, never mind the Russians in Groznyj or Bucha, have not been quite a lot worse.
What point are you trying to make? It’s well known that Azov started life as a right wing group, and no doubt still retain those links even after it was incorporated into the wider Ukrainian Army. What difference does their political leanings matter in the context of Russia invading their country, and seemingly murdering members of their regiment while they were POWs?
Let us not forget that Russia has many more far right mercenaries than Ukraine, and far right parties sit in the Russian parliament whereas in Ukraine their vote share was negligible
My point is that; relying on propaganda as fact is dangerous. I am not making a moral assertion on the rights or wrong of war. We just need to adopt a ‘balanced’ view which is not what we are getting. The academic author Peter Hitchens is almost silenced in this regard, he has both an in depth and balanced appreciation of what led to this. Yet he is silenced by liberal western media in his assertions. To note he is a vehement critic of Putin. I am sure the Russian public is getting similar stories and hyperbole. It is more a critique of our media and the resultant ‘knee Jerk’ escalations from our political class regards what they see as easy wins for upticks.
If you’re actually interested in a balanced view, perhaps you could also post information on the actions and accusations against the Wagner Group? However I feel you’re simply a contrarian, in that because 99% of the world can see that the blame for this conflict lies with Putin, you have to be different and attack the Ukrainians instead
99% only sees what the media wants them to see. there are alternative pov’s. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEPWgMXut_8&list=LL&index=7
Ok, more propaganda here. Let me ask you: why that video with Zelensky is cut so abruptly? Maybe because he tells later that
“That batallion had been incorporated to the military of Ukraine. Back in 2014 some of them did violate laws of Ukraine. And actually they were taken to court and got prison sentences. So law is above all.”
Why this was cut off the video you provided?
I suggest that most people accept that Russia invaded Ukraine and not the other way round
This seems to me to indicate that they are the ones that broke the norms of international behaviour and are solely responsible for this war
What AI fail to recognise is that Russia is fighting in formations and Ukraine is effectively fighting a guerilla war and is mingled with the population
I can assure you I am not a a simplistic contrarian, agent provocateur or anarchist. Quite the contrary I can assure you. I am an old-fashioned liberally inclined Centrist, look it up!. It was a thing when sense prevailed
And ‘Yes’ your assertion regards ‘Wagner’, Every war finds a home for ‘Psychotic Misanthropes’ Trust me ‘I’ know! However it exists on both sides! Had you any experience of ‘real’ war you would understand that ya dumb hippy!!
You know? What do you know? Come here. I will guide you through Bucha, Irpin, Hostomel. You can talk to natives and you will know what crimes Russians committed here.
Read between the lines KK as regards my experience. not to mention my pacifist leanings! To quote: “There are no greater exponents of pacifism than old war horses”
For the record, Peter Hitchens is a career journalist and not an academic.
And he certainly hasn’t been and couldn’t be silenced.
Excellent point. I’ve seen absolutely no sign that he has been silenced, censored or threatened. I’ve seen and ready plenty of his stuff over the fast few years.
The Kemlin’s useful idiots would do well to note that they are free to say whatever they like in this country (however ridiculous, deluded, shameful or wrong that is) while unpopular journalists in Russia are quite literally – and permanently – silenced.
But you won’t hear about that from these people. They will claim they are “impartial” and “point up the faults with both sides”. But this is no more convincing than Jeremy Corbyn claiming to be impartial on Israel (I call it the “Corbyn defence”).
I’m sick of the pathetic attempts by these clowns to try to establish some sort of moral equivalence between Russia and the civilised world where none actually exists.
Nice to agree with you for once!
Funny that they never take the same attiude against so-called palestinian terrorists!
Think it’s disgusting that Ukraine is being blamed here. Would you/Amnesty criticise Jewish victims of the holocaust? It feels similar to me.
I hate the term victim shaming, but that’s what this is.
The problem is that Amnesty International is acting like a shill for Russia, defending the attacker rather than the defender.
Part of the problem is that many Ukrainians from the west of the country are on record as regarding ethnic Russians as “sub-human”.
So why wouldn’t they park their heavy weapons and barracks in harms way ? They’re only Russian traitors anyway.
Considering that a lot of Russian-speakers seem to be siding with Ukraine against Russia that sounds rather surprising. If you have deep and nuanced understanding of popular feelings inside Ukraine, could you present your credentials? Alternatively this sounds more like the well established pattern of Russia and friends accusing their opponents of the things they are doing themselves.
My wife is Crimean – currently there visiting friends and family.
She has Ukrainian friends from Sumy, Mariupol and Kiev.
Do you not believe many in the west of the country view ethnic Russians literally as sub-human ? In the 1940’s they teamed up with the SS to slaughter both Jews and Communists.
I have seen many many clips on twitter where people openly espouse this view. Just google around and see what you find.
How about starting with Yulia Tymoshenko wanting to use nuclear bombs on both the Donbas and Crimea in 2014 ?
“”Viktor,” asked what Kyiv should do about the 8 million Russians still living on Ukrainian territory.
“We should hit them with an atomic weapon,” Tymoshenko answers back.”
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-tymoshenko-tape-language-russians/25308845.html
And in terms of some Russian speakers siding with Ukraine, this is unsurprising given that 99% of Ukrainians speak the language.
There is a difference between ethnic Russians – people like my wife whose mother moved from the Urals to Crimea in 1961 when it was all one country and a Russian speaking Azov fanboy from Lwow.
Ukraine doesn’t have nuclear weapons to hit them with, they gave them up for written guarantees from Russia to respect Ukrainian sovereignty and territory, a move Ukraine is no doubt now regretting
Whether or not Ukraine ever had nuclear weapons (they didn’t – the launch codes were in Moscow) is irrelevant to my point.
When you consider a whole people as subhuman, as Tymoshenko and many fanatical Ukrainian nationalists do, it’s easy to park your military next to them. If it makes you a target, it makes them a target too – but they’re only dirty katsap Russians anyway.
This is why there has been so much of Ukraine using civilians in the south and east as human shields. It’s repulsive, but what I’ve come to expect from a CIA-inspired radicalised Ukrainian population.
Still, Wagner just entered Artymovsk and the rest of the Donbass line is crumbling, so at least the good side is winning.
“When you consider a whole people as subhuman, as Tymoshenko”
Tymoshenko siad those words AFTER russian invasion.
So one country attacks another country. And when a victim says that it would be good to fight back, you blame the victim?
I think you missed the point. He said that about his own Ukrainian citizens of Russian ethnicity in the breakaway Donbas region, not the Russian army!
“radicalised Ukrainian population”
Oh, come on!
Kolomoiskyi is one of the richest man in Ukraine. And one of the most powerful. And… he is a Jew. And not only Jew – he was representative of Ukrainian Jews and a cofounder of European Jewish Union.
Hroisman – another Jew. He was elected as a mayor of regional center. Then he was a viceprime-minister of Ukraine. Then he was elected as a Speaker (head of Parliament). Then he was a prime-minister for three years.
Tell me how is this all possible in a “”radicalised Ukrainian population”?
By the way, Zelenskyi (our current president) has Jewish roots as well.
This monument is located in Kyiv — the capital of Ukraine.
The President is Jewish as are other members of their government.
So were many Nazi sympathizers / enablers during the Holocaust who turned in their Jewish brothers. Most tellingly is that Zelensky is worth millions and millions of dollars according to the Panama Papers… in other words he is corrupt as hell, as have been most, if not all prior Ukrainian Presidents whether oriented towards the West or the East. He is a Puppet of US interests and will fight to the last Ukrainian if that is what he is paid to do. Very sad 8^(
But that is not a refutation of the proposition of a “radicalised Ukrainian population”.
You can make that argument about any diverse population. It is a logical fallacy.
I think most important is what ideas and personalities does a majority population identify with speaks the loudest.
The neo-Nazi problem is significant both because there are several very violent armed neo-Nazi factions within Ukraine, even if a relatively small part of the overall population they wield the power of terror and it is significant, as well as a general agreement by a large (maybe majority) that espouse some amount of belief in or apathy to look the other way for such neo-Nazi views within Western Ukraine and the capital of Ukraine. There seems to be a generalized lack of empathy for Ethnic Russians (literally called orks and sub-human). How mild or radical this is is debatable. Do they still believe in the concept of Lebensraum in order to kill off or drive away the Ethnic Russian peoples within Ukraine? I have seen that these neo-Nazi groups including Azov and Right Sector openly display not only Swastikas and SS iconography but even the slogans and flags such “Blood and Soil” (Blut und Boden).
Stepan Bandera is openly revered as a hero with streets, buildings, etc. named after him and even a public holiday named after this vile and odious human being who led his Nazi sympathizing Ukrainian subordinates in the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of people, including women and even small children, in pogroms against Jewish, Polish, and anyone deemed to be Russian or Communist sympathizers. It has been documented that there were many specific ways to torture them. Pretty sick stuff. I think it says a lot that this scum of the earth is elevated to such a level.
So Ukrainians have a Nazi problem. Russia lost millions and millions during WW2 to this horrible fascist ideology and they will not rest until this threat is gone. My country, the USA, supports the most violent opposition forces around the world in its pursuit of amassing all wealth and protecting the Empire at all costs. Recently that has included ISIS in Syria and Nazis in Ukraine. By extension that makes my beloved country Nazi as well unfortunately. It is my duty to speak out against this and do my part to not allow us to become Nazi enablers. I recommend that all moderate Ukrainians do the same.
“there are several very violent armed neo-Nazi factions within Ukrainethere are several very violent armed neo-Nazi factions within Ukraine”
So how many crimes did they commit? Any documents on this?
“Stepan Bandera is openly revered as a hero with streets, buildings, etc.”
Bandera had been imprisoned in Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Two of his brothers had been killed in Auschwitz.
“Russia lost millions and millions during WW2 to this horrible fascist ideology”
Direct losses of Ukraine during WW2 was about 8-10 millions. Population of Ukraine before the war was about 41 millions. After the war – 27 millions.
Ukraine and Belarus were two countries which suffered the most during WW2 – not Russia.
These all are just lies. Millions of Ukraine citizens moved from the east to the west for a shelter. Many of them are ethnic Russians or partially ethnic Russians. Many of them speak Russian only. And they found shelter and they live in piece.
Me myself is half-Russian-half-Ukrainian. My Ukrainian grandma had been married to my Russian grandpa. And my Ukrainian grandpa had been married to my Russian grandma.
There were no hatred between us recently before 2014.
So go and wash Russian propaganda off your brain.
OK, you know something. So, if I can ask you a favour, could you explain what it means to be an ‘ethnic Russian’? I naively thought that Ukrainians and Russians were ethnically pretty much the same, and the difference was a matter of language and culture. After all, as you say, it was all one country quite recently. So, is it which language you speak at home? Whether you identify as Ukrainian or Russian? Whether you give allegiance to Moscow or Kyiv? Where your ancestors came from? Or do all four go together anyway?
I will happily believe you that a lot of Ukrainians consider those who side with Russia as ‘Russian traitors’ After all the Russians seem to think much the same about Ukrainians, and this is war. But I was wondering how many of the inhabitants of the Donbas and Crimea that judgement covers.
That aligns with what I’m seeing as well. Lots of hate speech calling the ethnic Russians within Ukraine as “Orcs” or worse.
Oh, that is strange indeed. The only thing Russians did to Ukrainians is killing tens of thousands of them in the past months, destroying their homes, business and families. Nothing to be angry about, I guess. It is not clear why Ukrainian use hate speech.
I would like to see your evidence for that assertion. Seems to me that the populace that have remained in the conflict areas have been reticent to say anything definitive, or to side with their best guess as to whose side belongs the person who is asking them. At least that’s what I’ve seen in interview after interview.
There does seem to be a lot of confirmation from what I’ve heard from the majority of the people in the Donbas is that Ukraine is shelling them when no military targets are near them, that they know it (they know the direction and who controls the towns next to them), and that the feel Russia is “liberating” them.
I seem to be seeing more projection coming from the Ukraine side actually. But then I am mostly seeing sources direct from the peoples affected not military. However, Western media has been caught using unrelated footage and ascribing it to the Russians. Russia may very well be doing the same, I have no visibility to watch Russian TV media. I wish RT had been left alone so we could gather info from all sources.
This is Enerhodar. Russia calls U.N. session regarding “Ukraine shells Enerhodar”.
Now count seconds between shoots and explosions. Then check the map and tell me who was shooting.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nHnGtZWoYk4
The AI report is not wrong but it is naive. If you are a defending force in a country, where the territory is flat and open, then the only shelter for protection, camouflage and concealment is going to be urban areas; it has ever been thus. Add to that, that the Russian war objectives are to capture those cities and it is inevitable that both defenders and attackers will find themselves in the same urban terrain. The only alternative is for the Ukrainians to declare a city an ‘open city’, not defend it and therefore de facto, hand it over to the Russians; it’s not going to happen.
The requisite justification, under International Humanitarian Law (ie the laws of war) is the doctrine of military necessity. That does not obviate the need (by either side) to try and avoid civilian casualties and use of civilians as ‘human shields’ is a war crime, but it is neither immoral, unreasonable, or illegal for the Ukrainians to defend their cities, from within them.
AI are out of their depth in this report; the Red Cross are usually a more reliable guide.
“The only alternative is for the Ukrainians to declare a city an ‘open city’,”
It actually happened to southern cities.
Enerhodar, for example. Ukrainian army did not defend it. There were small armed group which guarded an atomic plant but that is it.
So Russians took Enerhodar almost without shooting. And now Russians are based right at the atomic power plant territory. Armed forces, artillery, explosives etc right at the largest atomic power plant in Europe.
Any word on this from AI?
To expand on your hypothesis on a tangent regards potential risk to Europe from an Nuclear power asserting control over a very dangerous facility. Can you then expand on the ‘Bat Virus – gain of function’ labs located in eastern Ukraine also? Or as the Ukrainians propaganda ministry put it ‘Russian aggression threatens biological research labs’
US-Fauci helped facilitate ‘gain of function’ labs in both China and Ukraine. EU and US restrictions forbade this. so they were utterly complicit in off-shoring this to circumvent their own legislation. Handy that the Ukraine conflict suddenly popped up as the people started to ask afresh about the origin of the virus!!
EXCLUSIVE WHO says it advised Ukraine to destroy pathogens in health labs to prevent disease spread | Reuters
Nothing to expand. You link provides all needed information. Let me quote it.
—-
U.N. officials have also said the WHO, in its work with Ukraine, is not aware of any activity in the country that would violate international treaties “including on chemical weapons or biological weapons.”
—-
Biosecurity experts say Russia’s movement of troops into Ukraine and bombardment of its cities have raised the risk of an escape of disease-causing pathogens, should any of those facilities be damaged.
—-
Russia called a meeting of the 15-member U.N. Security Council to reassert, without providing evidence, a longstanding claim that Ukraine ran biological weapons laboratories with U.S. Defense Department support.
—-
You lovely Russians did not provide any evidence of any bio weapons.
Your selective reading is quite apparent. I could supply other relevant and more damming evidential articles from the forming of GVI in Italy etc. but what’s the point! but thought that Reuters might give some official credence. I am not Russian as you seem to allude to, neither am I in their pay or influence. My issue is with the media on both sides of this conflict propaganda and hyperbole. I am not a ‘conspiracy theorist’ either. The simple assertion that a ‘balanced’ view taking into account the potential for propaganda, geo-political concerns and that critical thought should be applied is hardly a ‘radial’ assertion!
So you provide supposed evidence of Ukrainian wrongdoing, Kostiantyn points out that the evidence you supplied actually states the opposite of what you’re claiming, so instead you accuse him/her (apologies I’m not familiar with the name so unsure if it’s me or female) of “selective reading” to cover the fact you’re mistaken? Righto!
Isn’t it strange how there’s a number of people on this site who only ever comment on articles involving Ukraine, and only then in favour of the Russians? Or maybe it’s just me being cynical
Still missing the ‘core’ point! Read my points AGAIN!
What is your point? That Putin was right to invade Ukraine? That the Russians haven’t been behaving like animals? That because Ukraine was corrupt (by western standards) they deserve to have their cities indiscriminately shelled? What exactly is the point you’re trying to make, as you come across as somebody simply parroting what they’ve heard on Russian state news
Your point is really lost in time. Even Russians do not push this ‘bioweapon’ stuff anymore.
They said it about bioweapon on an official level (U.N. included). But still did not provide ANY evidence.
They said that there is a NATO base in Mariupol. And that there is a bioweapon in Mariupol.
Mariupol is under their control for months now. Aaaaaaand? Where are all the evidences? Zero!
QUEL SUPRISE, I am actually quite small- c conservative in my political leaning. I am also centrist in my outlook and blessed/cursed with an IQ of 157. Can you claim the same? I doubt it!
I can claim I’ve got an IQ of 158, same as you can claim one of 157. We’ll never know if either of us are telling the truth though will we
Well I am a certified member of Mensa which evidently qualifies it. Not to mention our exchanges to date!
Which just goes to prove how little a high IQ is worth. Assuming it is true, of course.
Wow, OMG.. the dum-dums agree. What a surprise! Welcome to the idiocrasy. Not so much a Movie as a Prophecy. Very similar in context to Enoch Powell’s RoB
It does not matter what you claim about yourself. If your posts were balanced and respected the facts, which they do not, you would not need to rely on self-certification anyway.
If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and swims like a duck, it is for all practical pupposes a duck. You quack, walk, and swim like a Russian propagandist.
So I’m wrong and your right regardless of the evidence and balanced assertions I have supplied to date? What evidence do you propose to the contrary?… None, exactly. The prosecution rest M’Lud.
I loath all religion. Ideology and the resultant evil It Inspires. To make a bad man do bad things takes opportunity, to make a good man do bad things takes religion/ Ideology
You betray the temperament of a religious fanatic or ideologue.
Quite the opposite, as per my previous assertion. Unless a humanist, atheist’s non-ideology offends yours as such. You appear to be both ‘Craven’ in name and persuasion’
In addition regards your reading of this Reuters article:
U.N. officials have also said the WHO, in its work with Ukraine, is not aware of any activity in the country that would violate international treaties “including on chemical weapons or biological weapons.”
Aware? seems very similar to the WIV assertion! They do not consider sanctioned (official or otherwise – dependent on the regulatory standards per country) ‘bio-research’ weapons as such or potential for nefarious players to change that functionality. Regardless of its potential to harm through its potential weaponisation. A Bread-Knife is not a weapon until you stab someone with it!
Just as a matter of interest; what is your ‘on the ground’ military experience? I would surmise that it is confined to an academic mis-reading of ‘the art of war’!
This is the problem, in my eyes the Ukrainians are left with little option. To sit outside the cities (which are being relentlessly shelled anyway whether there’s military targets there or not) would be suicidal.
I understand Amnesty have to be seen to be neutral and calling out practices that are less than ideal, but in the context of the war this is rather trivial compared to the actions of the Russians, and I feel most would give them the benefit of the doubt over the matter
If that is indeed the situation, then that is the argument that the Ukrainians should make, Military necessity. However I have yet to hear them make this argument. Have you heard the British police caution ? (I saw it on “The Bill”)
“You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defense if you do not mention, when questioned something that you later rely on in court”
Changing your story is a good indication of deception. The Ukrainians can’t say “The Russians bombed that school because they’re indiscriminate terrorists” and “We parked the tank in that playground because of military necessity”.
Amnesty lost me when they sided with the Pimp Lobby against trafficking victims. I no longer respect anything these hypocrites have to say, especially since they have their own history of human rights violations with which to contend.
And what is your point in bringing in the typical woke-feminist agenda. So they ‘lost you’ when they said something that you did not agree with! I did not quote Amnesty International. I merely referenced a summing up from AL-J which is universally available in various outlets including the EU’s summation of why Ukraine was unsuitable to be granted application status never mind actual membership. Stick to the topic at hand!!
Right, your Mensa membership and alleged IQ ?And, keeping « dumb ass stupid little girls out of « your forum?
I can happily supply my Bona-Fides regards my Mensa membership. However you are correct in Your assertion…. I DO assert that ‘stupid little girls/women’ should not indulge their virtue signaling, simplistic, uninformed and vacuous opinions and learn something from the more informed and inevitably better – balanced male understanding. Stick to your Showbiz & Celebrity and pseudo -psychology based nonsense. For reference a ‘Physiologist’ is just a girl who could not get a doctorate in proper medicine then specialise in actual proper ‘Psychiatry’ and has created a new femi-science which has as much actual Bona-Fides as your Feng-Shui/ Shakra/Reki/Astrology/Séance/Tarot et-al based anti-science idiocy which constantly disproves itself!
They lost me when they took their anti-Semitic turn.
I think some folk need to get a grip. War is war. Sitting in your comfy armchair it is easy to make judgements of what goes on across a battlefield. On the ground it is a very, very different world. Training a person to kill is one thing, but once they have done it, the psychological price it demands is another. There is no rationality and logic on the battlefield. My late father, a decorated soldier in the Glider Pilot Regiment often said at times like this, “he should never send a man to war who has not been there himself.”
Add to this the fact that the Ukraine is involved in an existentialist war, the situation will be aggravated. There are no angels in this situation. It is not a Hollywood movie. And by the way, my father mentioned a number of cases where British soldiers shot German prisoners. I think is was Brecht who said, “You thought you’d killed the beast, but the b***h that bore him is in heat again.”
Well said, It happens on all sides. I asserted in my original thread that we need to take a balanced view regards what is being reported. There are far too many ‘armchair warriors’ in the op-ed piece to countenance. My frustration probably got the better of me TBH. But listening to folks opine on what they do not know made me somewhat upset. If you have not been there, then ‘STFU’ was my frustration. However your comment gave me a sense of balance back regards their ill-informed commentary. .
Is anyone, either on the Ukrainian side or here within the comment section willing to take a detailed look at the report and the evidence presented, to try and assess whether the claims are true or false ? And if true whether or not they are legal/illegal , justified/unjustified ? All I’m hearing is;
“You’re biased. No you’re biased”
The bias argument is a logical fallacy. Determine if the statement is true first, then later you can argue why they said it.
Well, myself, Simon Diggins and others are saying that the AI claims sound fairly likely on a quick reading, but that considering the nature of the war (and the fact that it was Russia who started it) it may not be realistic to demand much more of Ukraine than they are doing already. After all the Ukrainian army is full of untrained troops, running a part-guerrilla campaign, and of necessity fighting to protect (and in) built-up areas. If this was only a question of fighting in cities one could consider spreading the blame more evenly. But it is not. Russia, apart from starting a war of conquest in the first place, is guilty of atrocities like Bucha (where the perpetrators got a unit decoration), torture and murder of prisoners of war, storing weapons in a nuclear power station ,’reckless shelling’ (AI) etc. etc. Indeed, and not by chance, Amnesty International has published numerous reports about Russian war crimes, while this is the first one they publish about Ukraine.
Sure. I have read it through. Lets quote it. It raises a lot of questions.
—-
In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals.
—-
Soldiers were eating meals in hospitals. Really? Is this a war crime – to meal?
—-
In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.
—-
Which town exactly? “From near” – how near exactly? A mile? Two miles? Ten miles?
—-
A Russian air strike on 28 April injured two employees at a medical laboratory in a suburb of Kharkiv after Ukrainian forces had set up a base in the compound.
—–
First, medical lab is not a hospital. Secondly, Compound can be quite large so need more details here – where were Ukrainian forced set up?
Does not it all sound biased?
Check out an actual cognisant source on both the geo-political and Historical context of the conflict in Ukraine. Not to even consider the outright connivance of the EU/NATO/UK/US in predicating this unnecessary conflict for political opportunism. The resultant catastrophic effect on both sides and the cost of living crisis now rampant across the world. Check out Peter Hitchens on Googly Woogly!
What makes you think Hitchens is a valid source of information? He’s a journo, subject to the same errors of perception as any other. Sometimes he’s right, sometimes he’s wrong. Using him as an example of veracity simply doesn’t work.
He lived there, was deeply involved in reporting the conflict; the resultant geo-political and socioeconomic fallout of the politically motivated war and internecine conflict propagated by the EU! So a damn site better informed than you that’s for sure..
I remember seeing a photo on Sky News of Ukrainian forces firing missiles from within a tightly packed residential are so Amnesty International are only confirming what we already know. ..
So the fact that Russia attacked another country, fires about 20-40 thousand shells every day, launched about 3000 missiles – means nothing to you?
Strawman argument
What the evidence seems to show is an aggressive Russian + LPR and DPR army being willing to level the field against a Ukranian army that has made a practice of firing from civilian areas and probably increasing as the war continues.
What if that huge red country attacks (with all its strength) this small green country… What do you think that small country should do?
https://postimg.cc/06ZQ58Kg
Honor previous peace agreements firstly or sue for peace when the hot war breaks out secondly. Given this scenario what other options exist?
But that is not an accurate picture. You would have to include NATO and US arming the small country to the teeth for the past 8 years and training them up to world class standards, goading the larger country into a proxy war, and then sending billions of dollars comparable to or exceeding the military budget of the larger country.
Militarily, Ukraine is probably the 2nd strongest on the continent. Before this started the puppet masters told this little country they could beat that massively bigger country. Unfortunately the puppet masters win either way but the little country gets wrecked.
Ukraine needed stronger and wiser leadership.
Probably, you would have to include the fact that Russia had attacked Ukraine in 2014.
And Georgia in 2008.
Just like pointing out the dangers of the vaccine might have created vaccine hesitancy, so any information that might paint Ukraine as less than pristine white-hat good-guys might create Ukraine war hesitancy. So, we’ve all got to participate in the noble lie or else.
Some anti-Semites blame some victims for being invaded.
What? How does this even equate/include this conflict? Is there any way of just getting dumb-ass stupid little girls out of these forums?
Amnesty International has made a number of pronouncements which meet the IHRA’s definitions of anti-Semitism, and is now criticising the defenders of the victims of Russia’s relentless and deliberate shelling of civilian and residential infrastructure.
When you’re in a hole, best to stop digging. All you’re doing is proving yourself to be not worth taking any notice of.
it certainly puts their spurious analysis of the situation in Gaza into perspective. Agnès Callamard has form.
Calling AI a human rights org is simply wrong. They are a leftist political org. They hate Israel, they hate the US. I don’t think they love Russia and hate Ukraine but I don’t think they particularly know what they’re talking about.